January 29, 2025 • 43 mins
Welcome to The Inner Game of Change, the podcast that explores the evolving landscape of change management, leadership, and transformation.
Today, I welcome the inspiring Margo Waldorf, founder of the Global Change Awards and a true change leader on a mission in the field of workplace transformation.
As the CEO of the Global Change Awards and Director at Change Ready Workplace, Margo is a passionate advocate for making change a skill that everyone can master. Her work is reshaping the way organisations approach change management and leadership.
In this episode, we dive into the role of change management, the power of leadership and sponsorship, and what it means to be an influencer in the field. We also explore the critical topic of making an impact, offering insights and inspiration for expert change practitioners, those new to the profession, and anyone considering a career focused on meaningful work and driving real transformation.
This is a must-listen for anyone passionate about making a difference in the workplace—let’s get started!
About Margo
Margo is the visionary founder behind the Change Awards, a prestigious global initiative that celebrates outstanding achievements in workplace transformation and change management.
As the CEO of the Change Awards and a director at Change Ready Workplace, Margo plays a pivotal role in shaping the future of the change profession.
Her dedication to raising awareness and advocating for change as an essential skill underscores her commitment to driving progress and excellence in organisational development worldwide.
Contacts
linkedin.com/in/margowaldorf
Websites
- mwaldorf.co (Personal)
- calendly.com/margowaldorf (Company)
- changeawards.co (Company)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Effort is very important.
It's often we think that, and Ithink it's more of a fixed
mindset thinking that we thinkthat achieving something, the
actual achievement, is the goal.
It's actually not like that.
What we should be praising isthe effort that we give in order
(00:24):
to create something, despite ofthe outcome.
So sometimes the outcome can benegative, but the effort that
you have given, you've actuallygrown through that and you've
learned a lot, and then perhapsyou can move it to something
else.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Welcome to the Inner Game of Change, the podcast that
explores the evolving landscapeof change management,
leadership and transformation.
I am your host, ali Jammah, andthis is the Inner Game of
Change podcast.
Today, I welcome the inspiringMargot Waldorf, founder of the
Global Change Awards and a truechange leader, on a mission in
the field of workplacetransformation.
(01:13):
As the CEO of the Global ChangeAwards and director at Change
Ready Workplace, margot is apassionate advocate for making
change a skill that everyone canmaster.
Her work is reshaping the wayorganizations approach change
management and leadership.
In this episode, we dive intothe role of change management,
(01:34):
the power of leadership andsponsorship, and what it means
to be an influencer in the field.
We explore the critical topicof making an impact, offering
insights and inspiration forexpert change managers, those
new to the profession and anyoneconsidering a career focused on
meaningful work and drivingreal transformation.
(01:55):
This is a must-listen foranyone passionate about making a
difference in the workplace.
Let's get started.
Well, margot, thank you so muchfor joining me in the Inner
Game of Change podcast.
I am eternally grateful foryour time.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for theinvitation.
I'm equally very happy to behere today and talk to you about
change.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Thank you so much, Margot.
You are the founder of ChangeAwards.
It's a global initiative tolook at change and appreciate
the efforts and highlight thosewinners and those champions in
the business of change.
Talk to me about the backgroundstory.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Oh, yes, a long background story, but you know
I'm based in the UK.
I've been working independentlyfor a lot of corporate clients
in the past and effectivelyhelping them to deliver change.
So that's how it started.
It started effectively with me,my own experience and career,
(02:59):
and at some point during that Ihave discovered this new
discipline which has been slowlyforming, and the discipline is
called the change managementorganizational change management
, if you wish.
Um and um.
Quite curious to figure outwhat it is, um, truly um went to
(03:21):
get myself trained in it, met alot of people.
I was part of the ChangeManagement Institute for a while
, also leading the UK sorry, notthe UK the London chapter for
the Change Management Institute,and that effectively has given
me a lot of exposure to peoplethat work in the discipline.
What it also did to me is thatit made me realize that really,
(03:47):
the discipline is growing.
There is more to be discovered.
So it's not only what weperceive it as it is to be, it
needs to be modernized.
But it also made me realizethat within the organizations
okay, this discipline is, Idon't want to say hardly unknown
(04:08):
, but we hire people to dothings and then we forget about
those people.
So we are not recognized.
Project management, programmanagement really
well-established disciplines,very well-recognized, and change
management, unfortunately, ororganizational change management
, unfortunately, isn't Yet.
There is a lot of people thatcome into this discipline.
(04:30):
Some of them would come fromthe project management side of
the business, some of them wouldcome from HR, the comms.
They have fallen into this andthey love it and they are
connected by understanding thatthis discipline is so different
from anything else thatsurrounds it.
Right, so the discipline isforming and then it made me
(04:53):
realize that they are truly andI've always been using this, by
the way they are truly theunsung heroes of change, because
even though they come intothose institutions,
organizations, they really um,they deliver something and then
they need to move on tosomewhere else and there never
is that that point ofrecognition.
(05:15):
Um few years back, thatdiscipline would be only hired
as a freelance, so you wouldhave people come over to do
their project and then leave thecompany.
So very rarely you would haveorganizations that have the
change management functioninternally, so that recognition
that would normally come fromwithin the corporate world
(05:37):
wouldn't be possible.
And that's how I've decided.
That's basically why I havedecided to set up or found the
Change Awards so effectivelylooking at the organizational
change management, recognizingpeople who work in the
organizational change managementand, hopefully, moving the
profession forward right.
(05:57):
So making sure we are a littlebit different, differentiating
ourselves, modernizing ourselves, different differentiating
ourselves, modernizing ourselves, pushing into those areas where
it's just beyond organizationalchange management.
And I'm happy to talk aboutthis, by the way, because I
think that OCM is just a part, atiny little snippet of what the
(06:20):
change management professionhas in offer.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
In your experience through the Change Awards and I
must say you know, as adisclaimer, I was a finalist in
one of your categories this year.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Congratulations.
Thank you, congratulations.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And I've witnessed firsthand the interaction with
the organization and they weretop class.
So congratulations for that.
Definitely your practice.
Where you preach by the soundof it, you get exposed to a lot
of winners.
You know nominated candidatesand their projects and their
(06:58):
work.
What would be some of thetrends that you've noticed
coming through those candidatesand those winners?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I think, the biggest trends these days.
What are we noticing?
So maybe first a disclaimer,which is that when I designed
and it's not only me, by the waythe design of the categories is
myself and the head judge, sowe designed the categories
together and these categorieschange every year.
(07:32):
We change them every yearbecause we have had exposure to
what is happening in the marketand we want to make sure that
this actually reflects themarket so effectively these
categories are effectively mostof them are already reflecting
the current trends.
So what is happening here atthe moment is that we have
(07:55):
recognized that withincorporates, what we need to push
in terms of awareness is thesponsorship for change.
So it's not that the changemanagement function comes in and
delivers the change.
It's never like that.
We can only facilitate thechange.
So we need to make sure thatthere is a sponsorship for
(08:15):
change.
That means somebody within theorganization, a stakeholder, a
number of stakeholders withinthe organization.
They actually go and deliverthe change and we obviously
write plans for them on how todo that and help them how to do
that.
Like I said, facilitate that,but we need to have it done.
So we need to have thatstakeholder engagement.
(08:36):
So sponsorship for change is atrend which I hope is moving,
spreading within the corporateworld.
Another trend is definitely thetechnology.
So what we've been seeing interms of the amount of
applications is that more andmore people are now working on
(08:59):
technology projects whateverthat is whether this is a big
ERP implementation or smallprocess changes in relation to
the system that has come in.
So that's kind of trend.
Number two Then we also have, Isuppose, your sustainability.
(09:22):
So you know, when we look atpeople, profit, planet, that
type of projects, so it'sgetting more to the surface.
I think that change managementis just it could be beyond your
typical, because I think itstarted with SFW technology
(09:42):
implementation.
You know, do some trainingaround it, make sure that people
follow from the day number one.
It's beyond that.
So now we can see that this isalso happening and there is this
huge push on.
I suppose we would call themchange makers, so people or
(10:02):
organizations who havediscovered that there is a need
to drive positive change andthey realized that they wanted
to do something about it.
So that is, I suppose,additional.
The third trend, which is thatchangemakers discover something
new and they have decided to dosomething about it.
(10:23):
Discovered something new andthey have decided to do
something about it.
So that again links a littlebit to the people, profits and
finance type of strategy.
But I would say these are thebiggest trends.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
The changemakers are the people that come up with the
ideas and they want to see apathway to make them happen and
implement them.
Are they change managers byprofession or are they already
integrated management people, orbasically people within an
organization?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah.
So I think they're definitelynot change managers I mean not
only not always, they are justpeople.
I think I would say they'remore entrepreneurial.
Perhaps, um, maybe it's to dowith generations, but I think
younger people are a little bitmore entrepreneurial, um or less
misadverse.
(11:17):
They can, they're happy to dosomething.
They, they see that biggerpurpose.
It's completely different to,um, what we would perceive the
purpose to be as people in our40s, right?
So I definitely think thatpeople that see they need to do
something and they would dosomething and it's not only
people, by the way, it's alsoorganizations that maybe smaller
(11:38):
organizations, maybe not thebig multinationals, but small
organizations that would see theneeds to impact positively
local societies or communities.
Or maybe they've always beenthere but we've just never
provided them an opportunity toactually be visible.
You know, maybe that's what itis, yeah, and I think it's um,
(12:00):
it's important for us to be ableto provide them with that
platform.
So you know, we should berecognizing effort is very
important.
It's often we think that.
I think it's more of a fixedmindset thinking that, you know,
we think that achievingsomething, the actual
achievement, is the goal.
It's actually not.
(12:21):
It's actually not, like thatwhat we should be praising is
the effort that we give in orderto create something, despite of
the outcome.
So sometimes the outcome can benegative, but the effort that
you have given.
You've actually grown throughthat and you've learned a lot,
(12:42):
and then perhaps you can move itto something else.
So that's my point of view,though.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I want to share with you a story related to what
you're talking about.
When I started running marathons, I thought the finish line was
the most important thing, andthat was maybe eight, nine years
ago.
And so I'll finish a marathonand I'm thinking that is it.
I finished the marathon, so thefinish line was the one that I
(13:13):
was after.
So one of the lessons that I'velearned over the years, mango,
is that the essence of themarathon is not, I mean, apart
from the effort you need to make.
The effort is not the finishline, it's the person you become
after the finish line and thenso when I think about projects
(13:35):
or change, yes, effort isimportant, but I would like to
know who you've become after 6to 12 months, or even more than
that, running a project, becauseonly I will be very interested
in you as a professional andyour development and what you've
(13:55):
learned throughout thisparticular process.
Not that we finished a projectand we moved on.
Is that what you're actuallyreferring to?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yes, yes, exactly, exactly that's what I'm
referring to, Because, so sure,it's very important to pause and
to reflect, and I think that'swhat Change Awards is about.
Right, you can pause andreflect on what you have
achieved over the last year orfive years, but actually, the
efforts, the learning,everything that has led to the
(14:29):
outcome like I said, regardlessof what the outcome is is the
thing that's the most important.
So, using your analogy, I'llgive you my story.
So I am not a marathon runner.
Uh, frankly, I'm very bad atrunning and I have this, I have
this app on my phone, and I'vehad it on my phone for I don't
(14:49):
know the last 10 years probably,which is very embarrassing.
It's called Coach to 5K.
So this is the app that teachesyou how to run 5K, and every so
often I would go on thetreadmill and every so often I
would switch on the app, andit's very easy.
By the way, you're supposed torun, I think, three days per
week.
It's built literally foolproof.
(15:12):
It's built to allow you tolearn your body to adjust in
time and learn to run the 5kregardless of your pace.
Okay, so you could be running5k in 45 minutes or an hour, it
doesn't matter.
So every so often I do that, Iswitch on the app and I, you
know, I just, yes, I feel likenow is the time I'm so
(15:33):
determined I'm definitely goingto go and within the next eight
weeks, 5k is mine.
And you know, determination isthere and I always finish, by
the way, whenever I start.
But starting from scratch, itfeels painful During this whole
running half an hour on thetreadmill, 35 minutes on the
(15:53):
treadmill maybe the first day,first week, is painful.
The second week you realizethat the actual act of running
is what is liberating, and youcan.
I, for example, I listen toaudio books when I run and then
that gives me that I don't know,it's like almost my mind gives
in to listening and the actionof running is just something
(16:16):
that is passive.
And I think that is the mostimportant thing, because you
learn.
Sure, you teach your body howto run for half an hour in order
to get that 5K, but the actualaction, that's the thing that is
actually liberating.
So so, going back to what yousaid before, which is that who
(16:37):
have you become after you?
You've gotten there, so youneed to appreciate the journey,
because that journey is what hasled you to become who you are
after you've run 5k, afteryou've run the marathon, after
you have finished that project.
That's the learning.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I want to ask you about change leadership.
In your experience, in youropinion and observation, what
are some of the key elementsthat leaders would need to
create in an organization, orcreate the right environment for
change?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
in an organization will create the right
environment for change.
So, in my opinion, what I wouldlike organizations to do is
create an environment forinnovation, to enable innovation
.
This is me, by the way.
I can't remember what was thename of this concept, but there
(17:38):
is this concept of blue mindsetand red mindset, and that is
organization.
That's understood as anorganization's mindset.
So you've got the red mindsetorganization so effectively.
That means that within theorganization, there is always a
number of things that you needto do operationally in order to
sustain the business right, andthat makes sense.
In order for us to make profitsand remain in the market, we
(18:05):
need to do those minimal thingsfive things, 10 things, whatever
, depending on the complexity.
However, in the long time,that's not enough.
We have plenty of examples oforganizations which have just
stuck in this red mindset, sothey have just continuously
delivered, regardless of whatwere the market trends,
(18:28):
regardless of the environmentaround them.
We're telling them to do, andthose organizations don't exist
anymore.
They have failed.
So that means that you need tocultivate the blue mindset, so
you always have to have thissustained operations, but you
always still should have this.
You should provide anenvironment for people to fail
(18:52):
to learn to innovate, and Ithink that is what the change
management allows.
So change management for me, isnot necessarily only about
helping organizations when theproject comes in and providing
the training, making sure thatpeople know what's going on for
them at the right time.
People know what's going on forthem at whatever, the right
(19:16):
time.
It's also about helping leadersto understand that they need to
create the right environment tomake the change possible,
whatever the change is.
So they need to source theideas from within the
organization in order to movethe organizations out of their
red mindset into the bluemindset and implement those
projects, or implement thosemini projects or mini processes
or whatever.
It is many reasons behind that.
(19:37):
Obviously, one of the reason isthat people are more motivated
because they feel that they havea lot of control over what they
do.
So that's um, um, you know,that's.
That, I think, is veryimportant.
People, especially these days,they want to feel that um, it's
a bilateral agreement, I come into deliver, but you come in and
you provide, but you also allowme to deliver the things that I
(20:00):
want to do.
Otherwise I'm unhappy and I cango and change and go work
somewhere else.
So for me personally, that iswhat I would like the leadership
to think about.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
And that is the blue sky thinking, which is basically
whilst we are keeping.
You know it's no longeracceptable and enough to keep
the lights on and sell what yousell.
What you're saying is that youalways got to have to create
this environment for people toexperiment and go out of their
(20:32):
normal responsibility, Becauseinnovation actually has got a
very positive impact on moralein the team, but you also think
that change managers can play anactive role in that environment
.
Can you double-click on that?
Can you actually go deeper intothat and can you double click
on that?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Can you actually go deeper into that?
Well, so I think that changemanagement is the way we look at
change management today, whichI think is rather limited,
because we look at this as aprocess that organizations,
change management professionals,follow in order to move people
from A to B.
That is the easiest way ofdoing it and we would say, in a
(21:20):
normal scenario, you will have avery common scenario.
I think this is the most commonscenario is that there is a
company.
They're implementing a I don'tknow a new ERP system.
They employ a bunch of projectmanagers, maybe a program
manager, depending on how big orsmall this is and they will
also employ change managementfunction.
(21:43):
Okay, and then again, dependingon complexity, but let's, you
know, let's keep it simple.
So there will be a changemanager.
They come in, they look at thebusiness change.
Okay, they'll do some impactassessment type of activities.
They'll figure out how to splitthe audiences.
They'll say, okay, audience one, they need to get this training
(22:04):
.
Audience B needs to get thattraining.
These are the communicationthat these people are going to
receive.
This is how are we going totrack it?
These are the kind of you knowwe're going to measure the way
that we are doing this at thispoint and at that point, and
hopefully by the end of theimplementation on day one, the
(22:24):
majority of the organizationthat is impacted by this change
is going to be feeling fairlyconfident in working on the new
system.
Okay, that's exactly what it is.
What I think is that changemanagement as such, it's
actually a broader concept.
(22:44):
It's much broader than thisBecause, effectively, if you go
and read all those books onchange management 101, they will
always start from the angle ofa human, of an individual right.
They will always teach a littlebit about the way that humans
(23:05):
perceive change.
They will always talk aboutthis.
They will always talk aboutthis.
They will always talk about themindset.
They will always talk about youknow your five stages of grief.
You freeze and freeze, etc.
Etc.
Yet actually in the corporatesetting, very rarely this is
(23:26):
there, was.
There's no practical, practicalapplication for it.
Really it's you still.
You know, when you are a changemanager, you still come in, use
some sort of model, whateverthe model you will be using and
just lead people through that.
So my point is that organizationchange management, or change
management, if you wish, is abroader concept and should be
considered as a broader concept,that human side of change, your
(23:52):
personal change, which weshould be talking about more,
should be also including theinnovation part of it, because
change always is a starter forinnovation, whatever the
innovation is.
So how do we affect thatindividual within the workplace?
(24:14):
What kind of environment weneed to create for that
individual in the workplace sothat individual feels that they
can go beyond, feels that theylike using our analogy, they
like the run.
They didn't necessarily feellike they need to finish or win
effectively, they just like that.
(24:36):
You know that's the length ofthat.
They like the processeffectively.
So that's how I see changemanagement and that's how I
would like this discipline tostart evolving.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
I want to add a little bit to that, I think and
I'm with you on that that firstof all, it is a personal
experience.
So and the second thing is thatwhat you're talking about here,
my girl which correct me if I'mwrong we need to focus a lot on
the mindset, not just theenvironment, and the mindset
(25:09):
around change, rather thanbecause we all go through our
own experiences differently, weall manage change differently.
At a personal level Socialcontract that I have with you
today as an employee I may likeyou today, but then you
introduce a change and I willnot like you tomorrow because
(25:29):
that's how it is.
And this is why we need tofocus a lot on the mindset and
the environment.
As you mentioned, it's a longgame better than the short game.
The short game is alwaysshort-term thinking, is always
going to cause problems for us,because you can finish a project
(25:51):
, you can finish the finish line, but then who cares if the
experience is bad and if theadoption is not there and you
start all over again?
And so my counsel always to mystakeholders I actually give
them the questions they shouldbe asking me and my fellow
(26:13):
change managers.
The questions include as aresult of this change strategy
and the way you would like theorganization to adopt the change
.
Why have you chosen thisparticular strategy?
How is that going to influencetheir change experience?
How is that going to influenceeven the engagement within the
(26:38):
organization?
How is that going to change themindset of people towards
change?
Now, that is what we're talkingabout here, margot.
It's very hard stuff and a verylong term in there.
Unfortunately, the challenge isthat majority of organizations
until now, they look at achallenge manager as a resource
(27:00):
that will come in there and getout within a certain period of
time.
Actually, they don't even get itA project manager will decide
to have a challenge manager inthere.
I think recently, over lastcouple of years, there's
definitely intention from ourchange management community to
have a better seat at the tableand that to have those
(27:22):
conversations and I always talkabout.
That's all well and good, butyou'd better say meaningful
stuff at the table and this iswhen you move from being in that
space to an influencer, whichis actually one of the award
(27:44):
categories I think that you had.
We need to move into theinfluencer zone, and that is not
an easy thing, However, it'sactually very rewarding.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yes, completely because I think so.
So two points.
Point number one is that I seeI see change as a skill okay,
because I think that if we look,it's just easier.
It's narrative around, it iseasier because skill is
something that you can learn,okay, skill is something that
(28:15):
you can get better at.
That goes back to your mindsetand 100 percent cover, honestly,
100% behind that, um, notionthat the mindset is very
important and organizationsshould be cultivating that
mindset.
Um, you know that curiosity,that you know that type of
mindset which is which is thegrowth.
We call it the growth mindset,right?
(28:36):
Um, that's, that's very muchbeneficial.
Um, we, as a change managementprofession, and particularly I
think that I would prefer, or Iwould like to see the bodies of
knowledge who define thestandard for change management
(28:58):
profession to actually be morechanging and cultivating change
and more modernizing as aprofession we need, like you
said, we need an influencer andI would say, given the way that
the market is currently thechange management market is
currently fixed, in a way, Iwould like to see those
(29:22):
organizations lead the way.
Okay, the reality is that theydon't lead the way.
It is what it is and perhapsthat's why I think the change
management profession needs tounite.
If the change managementprofession sees a development of
the profession, they should beuniting and they should be
(29:44):
trying to establish the new andmodern approach.
Because I think, like I said,organization change management
the one that we, like you said,when people get employed,
usually the project managercomes in and employs them.
That is just a snippet of theoffering that we've got.
Our offering is much broaderthan that, because our offering
(30:05):
is also touching the leadership,coaching, training, coaching,
touching that mindset part of it, which is literally people,
person to person, and thereforeis also really touching the
innovation part.
So organizations should belooking at change management
(30:26):
from a completely differentperspective.
The reality is different, right?
So we've got, like you said,we've got people that there is a
project you employ, come in,leave and that's it.
And that's why the changealways tended to happen, because
I felt that we owe it to theprofession to become visible.
Okay, because that professionis just invisible, and
(30:47):
particularly in the UK marketwhen we have an opportunity to
make it a chartered profession.
So it's a bit of a differentsetup in the UK, but you can get
a royal charter and yourprofession becomes more
professionalized, if that makessense, you know.
That's why I think we need thatunity.
We need that unity of thechange management profession
(31:09):
People who think that theoffering that they have and they
are currently offeringorganizations just not enough,
because they know they work inthose organizations and they
know that they can make a betterdifference but the contract,
like you said, the contract thatthey have with those
organizations is really reallylimited because it's much
(31:29):
smaller.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
That is the challenge .
You usually get given aparticular task and you've got a
time frame and then you'regoing to have to stick to the
game.
In fact, I am in a betterposition I should you know.
I'm grateful for what I am Overthe years I've become.
I am the one that chooses whichproject manager I work with.
(31:53):
So I am actually on theopposite side.
But that does not come until youhave a lot of credibility and
the value that you bring to theorganization and I have unmuted
my voice five, six years ago.
But then that comes with theresponsibility.
Obviously you're going to haveto deliver the value the moment.
(32:14):
You do it with one organizationor one project, or you know it
can build up on that.
Would you agree thatorganizations that train new
emerging change managers, likethe ProSci Institute, the Cotter
Institute I think the Cotter isprobably doing a lot of changes
now these organizations andeven the Change Management
(32:35):
Institute, I think they do somecertification these
organizations would need torethink the way they introduce
their certification and theirdegrees.
Oh, that's a difficult questionfor me.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
So look a bit sensitive, but look.
So we've got the Association ofChange Management Professionals
, which I think it's a USorganization that is building a
standard for change or has builta standard for change
management.
We also have the ChangeManagement Institute, which is
an Australian entity that issomewhat delivering that
(33:16):
standard.
These organizations and maybeI'll particularly talk from the
CMI perspective because ACMPhaven't been in depth really
engaged with that organizationbut this Change Management
Institute they are doing a lotof good.
So they are providing thatminimum qualification of what
(33:41):
are the minimum things that youneed to know in order to
potentially go into a project.
We know for a fact that 80% ofthe skill is, you know, learned
by doing in an actualenvironment.
20% is probably by readingsomething or learning from
somebody else.
So I think that they are inthis ballpark.
(34:01):
So these are the minimum thingsthat you need to know about
change management,organizational change management
, in order to go deliver aproject.
I can guarantee you that if youhave no experience and you have
just completed that training,you are going to struggle on the
project.
You still need to be.
You're nodding, I get that.
You are going to struggle on aproject and you still need to be
(34:22):
um, you can yeah, you'renodding, I get that you still
need to have somebody who'shelping you, because the in
reality and I think this is whatmakes the change management um
profession so exciting is thatreality is that people are the
biggest wild cards.
That's the reality and you needto work with people and you are
(34:46):
in an organization where thereis a change being introduced.
You will think, oh, okay, well,that's.
You know, that's a bit of acookie cutter for me, because
I've done this in organizationand let's say again again system
implementation Pretty muchcookie cutter.
I've done this before.
This is going to be exactly thesame here.
It's never like that and that'swhy this makes the organization
(35:08):
sorry.
This makes the changemanagement profession and work
really, really exciting, becauseevery time there is something
different, because you stillneed to be operating within the
environment that is built bypeople, because every single
organization is built by peopleand with people, and it's filled
(35:29):
with people.
Look, and all of theseorganizations on the other side
you know the Change ManagementInstitute, acmp, prosite, cota.
They are commercial entities.
They are commercial entities.
They are commercial entities,so they need to be making money.
They will need to make surethat the offering that they have
(35:50):
is the offering that isreflective of the market.
I would love them to stretch.
I would love them to stretchand I know that some of them are
stretching, by the way.
So I know that some of them arestretching by the way, so I
know that they are building newoffering to make sure.
Yeah, exactly so they are.
So they are making sure andwe've got.
As with anything in life, ittakes time.
(36:10):
Unfortunately, and this goesback to, I suppose, the
environment that we sit in atthe moment Change is really fast
.
So sometimes, when you aredeveloping a concept, after it's
developed and reviewed andreviewed again, and developed
again and tweaked, et cetera, etcetera, and then implemented to
(36:31):
the market for the bettermentof the change management,
profession development, if youwish, sometimes it's really
obsolete because the world hasmoved on so quickly.
So, unfortunately, some, somethings you cannot change.
But we still need thoseorganizations to to drive um
that standard and, like I saidbefore, ideally in the uk market
(36:56):
we need that unity behind theprofession that would allow us
to create that chartered statusfor the profession.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Looking for new unity .
Margot, you've got my voiceanyway behind you, so I can
support as much as I can.
I really like the idea that thewild card is the people, and
that is a tricky part as well.
The wildcard is the people, andthat is a tricky part as well.
I know that the Cota Instituteand the ProSci I'm involved with
(37:25):
both and I know that theycontinuously think about better
ways.
Look, personally, I do not haveany problem with the framework.
I do have a problem that wethink people would need to fit
within a framework and that'snot always the case.
Knowledge is important, but theapplication is a different game
(37:47):
.
But certainly knowledge isimportant.
There's no doubt about that aswell.
When I say organizations theeducation organizations would
need to rethink, it doesn't meanthat they are doing a bad job,
but the world is moving veryfast.
As you mentioned, and, similarto you, you're running the
(38:07):
Change Awards.
You're changing the types ofawards and the categories based
on what the market, what'shappening in the market.
So you're already responding tothe market forces in there and
that's how you run thisparticular initiative, which is
basically you know what otherorganizations would need to do.
(38:29):
But you were right, they arecommercial entities.
It's like a university.
Universities now, in the age ofAI, would need to rethink their
offerings and going forward.
Otherwise they will becomeobsolete because the technology
will take over.
So I am aware of the time.
I am thoroughly enjoying thisconversation.
(38:50):
You made me think about acouple of other things that I
haven't really thought about.
Final question to you what doessuccess mean to you when it
comes to change management?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Oh, my goodness, I think for me.
I'm still a practitioner, bythe way.
I still work for organizations.
You know one of the projectsthat I've done in the past okay,
I came in mid towards the end.
You know, sometimes that's howit happens for us we are called
(39:24):
in when things are notnecessarily going the right way.
I remember this one thing, whichwas a meeting.
It was a final meeting of theproject.
Some people were physically inthe location, in the office room
, some people were online on theother side location in the
office room, some people wereonline on the other side and we
(39:45):
had that final thank you and abit of gratefulness from the
leadership.
You know, we had donuts on thetable, that type of situation.
People had other bits and cakesand everything on the other
side.
And there was one thing thatreally stuck in my mind.
It was this gentleman whosuddenly clapped his hands and
(40:09):
said okay, we are ready for thenew one.
And I think that is the thingthat really makes me want to
work in change management,because you know that you have
made a difference.
And you haven't made it.
You haven't made a differenceyourself, but through
facilitating and aligning peoplewithin the organization, you've
made the difference, that theyare ready.
(40:29):
It wasn't an easy project.
They've done it very quickly.
You know people have lost jobs.
There was a lot of emotionalpart of it, but yet somebody
says, okay, we're ready for thenew one.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
I was familiar with it.
Fantastic.
I'm grateful for your time,Margot, and you know.
Thank you so much for joiningme in the In A Game of Change
podcast.
I'd love to get you back atsome stage, maybe next year, and
then we talk more about yourjourney with the Change Awards
and your personal journey.
(41:05):
We're going to put a lot ofinformation about you and the
Change Awards and the podcastinfo.
How would people connect withyou?
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Well, I think the easiest way is just to go to my
LinkedIn profile.
Just type in Margot Waldorf andthen you can find me over there
.
If you wanted to reach out tous on my LinkedIn profile, just
type in Margot Waldorf and thenyou can find me over there.
Yeah, and you know, if youwanted to reach out to us or
change your words, just go toour website.
There's a contact form, but youalso can find our email address
.
So I think that's the easiestway.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Thank you so much.
We're going to put all theinformation Margot until next
time.
Stay well and stay safe.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Thank you, margot.
Thank you for listening.
If you found this episodevaluable, remember to subscribe
to stay updated on upcomingepisodes.
Your support is trulyappreciated and, by sharing this
podcast with your colleagues,friends and fellow change
practitioners, it can help mereach even more individuals and
(42:06):
professionals who can benefitfrom these discussions.
Remember, and in my opinion,change is an enduring force and
you will only have a measure ofcertainty and control when you
embrace it.
Until next time.
Thank you for being part of theInner Game of Change community.
I am Ali Jammah, and this isthe Inner Game of Change podcast
(42:28):
.
Effort is very important.
It's often we think that, and Ithink it's more of a fixed
mindset thinking that we thinkthat achieving something, the
actual achievement, is the goal.
It's actually not like that.
What we should be praising isthe effort that we give in order
(00:24):
to create something, despite ofthe outcome.
So sometimes the outcome can benegative, but the effort that
you have given, you've actuallygrown through that and you've
learned a lot, and then perhapsyou can move it to something
else.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Welcome to the Inner Game of Change, the podcast that
explores the evolving landscapeof change management,
leadership and transformation.
I am your host, ali Jammah, andthis is the Inner Game of
Change podcast.
Today, I welcome the inspiringMargot Waldorf, founder of the
Global Change Awards and a truechange leader, on a mission in
the field of workplacetransformation.
(01:13):
As the CEO of the Global ChangeAwards and director at Change
Ready Workplace, margot is apassionate advocate for making
change a skill that everyone canmaster.
Her work is reshaping the wayorganizations approach change
management and leadership.
In this episode, we dive intothe role of change management,
(01:34):
the power of leadership andsponsorship, and what it means
to be an influencer in the field.
We explore the critical topicof making an impact, offering
insights and inspiration forexpert change managers, those
new to the profession and anyoneconsidering a career focused on
meaningful work and drivingreal transformation.
(01:55):
This is a must-listen foranyone passionate about making a
difference in the workplace.
Let's get started.
Well, margot, thank you so muchfor joining me in the Inner
Game of Change podcast.
I am eternally grateful foryour time.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for theinvitation.
I'm equally very happy to behere today and talk to you about
change.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Thank you so much, Margot.
You are the founder of ChangeAwards.
It's a global initiative tolook at change and appreciate
the efforts and highlight thosewinners and those champions in
the business of change.
Talk to me about the backgroundstory.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Oh, yes, a long background story, but you know
I'm based in the UK.
I've been working independentlyfor a lot of corporate clients
in the past and effectivelyhelping them to deliver change.
So that's how it started.
It started effectively with me,my own experience and career,
(02:59):
and at some point during that Ihave discovered this new
discipline which has been slowlyforming, and the discipline is
called the change managementorganizational change management
, if you wish.
Um and um.
Quite curious to figure outwhat it is, um, truly um went to
(03:21):
get myself trained in it, met alot of people.
I was part of the ChangeManagement Institute for a while
, also leading the UK sorry, notthe UK the London chapter for
the Change Management Institute,and that effectively has given
me a lot of exposure to peoplethat work in the discipline.
What it also did to me is thatit made me realize that really,
(03:47):
the discipline is growing.
There is more to be discovered.
So it's not only what weperceive it as it is to be, it
needs to be modernized.
But it also made me realizethat within the organizations
okay, this discipline is, Idon't want to say hardly unknown
(04:08):
, but we hire people to dothings and then we forget about
those people.
So we are not recognized.
Project management, programmanagement really
well-established disciplines,very well-recognized, and change
management, unfortunately, ororganizational change management
, unfortunately, isn't Yet.
There is a lot of people thatcome into this discipline.
(04:30):
Some of them would come fromthe project management side of
the business, some of them wouldcome from HR, the comms.
They have fallen into this andthey love it and they are
connected by understanding thatthis discipline is so different
from anything else thatsurrounds it.
Right, so the discipline isforming and then it made me
(04:53):
realize that they are truly andI've always been using this, by
the way they are truly theunsung heroes of change, because
even though they come intothose institutions,
organizations, they really um,they deliver something and then
they need to move on tosomewhere else and there never
is that that point ofrecognition.
(05:15):
Um few years back, thatdiscipline would be only hired
as a freelance, so you wouldhave people come over to do
their project and then leave thecompany.
So very rarely you would haveorganizations that have the
change management functioninternally, so that recognition
that would normally come fromwithin the corporate world
(05:37):
wouldn't be possible.
And that's how I've decided.
That's basically why I havedecided to set up or found the
Change Awards so effectivelylooking at the organizational
change management, recognizingpeople who work in the
organizational change managementand, hopefully, moving the
profession forward right.
(05:57):
So making sure we are a littlebit different, differentiating
ourselves, modernizing ourselves, different differentiating
ourselves, modernizing ourselves, pushing into those areas where
it's just beyond organizationalchange management.
And I'm happy to talk aboutthis, by the way, because I
think that OCM is just a part, atiny little snippet of what the
(06:20):
change management professionhas in offer.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
In your experience through the Change Awards and I
must say you know, as adisclaimer, I was a finalist in
one of your categories this year.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Congratulations.
Thank you, congratulations.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And I've witnessed firsthand the interaction with
the organization and they weretop class.
So congratulations for that.
Definitely your practice.
Where you preach by the soundof it, you get exposed to a lot
of winners.
You know nominated candidatesand their projects and their
(06:58):
work.
What would be some of thetrends that you've noticed
coming through those candidatesand those winners?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I think, the biggest trends these days.
What are we noticing?
So maybe first a disclaimer,which is that when I designed
and it's not only me, by the waythe design of the categories is
myself and the head judge, sowe designed the categories
together and these categorieschange every year.
(07:32):
We change them every yearbecause we have had exposure to
what is happening in the marketand we want to make sure that
this actually reflects themarket so effectively these
categories are effectively mostof them are already reflecting
the current trends.
So what is happening here atthe moment is that we have
(07:55):
recognized that withincorporates, what we need to push
in terms of awareness is thesponsorship for change.
So it's not that the changemanagement function comes in and
delivers the change.
It's never like that.
We can only facilitate thechange.
So we need to make sure thatthere is a sponsorship for
(08:15):
change.
That means somebody within theorganization, a stakeholder, a
number of stakeholders withinthe organization.
They actually go and deliverthe change and we obviously
write plans for them on how todo that and help them how to do
that.
Like I said, facilitate that,but we need to have it done.
So we need to have thatstakeholder engagement.
(08:36):
So sponsorship for change is atrend which I hope is moving,
spreading within the corporateworld.
Another trend is definitely thetechnology.
So what we've been seeing interms of the amount of
applications is that more andmore people are now working on
(08:59):
technology projects whateverthat is whether this is a big
ERP implementation or smallprocess changes in relation to
the system that has come in.
So that's kind of trend.
Number two Then we also have, Isuppose, your sustainability.
(09:22):
So you know, when we look atpeople, profit, planet, that
type of projects, so it'sgetting more to the surface.
I think that change managementis just it could be beyond your
typical, because I think itstarted with SFW technology
(09:42):
implementation.
You know, do some trainingaround it, make sure that people
follow from the day number one.
It's beyond that.
So now we can see that this isalso happening and there is this
huge push on.
I suppose we would call themchange makers, so people or
(10:02):
organizations who havediscovered that there is a need
to drive positive change andthey realized that they wanted
to do something about it.
So that is, I suppose,additional.
The third trend, which is thatchangemakers discover something
new and they have decided to dosomething about it.
(10:23):
Discovered something new andthey have decided to do
something about it.
So that again links a littlebit to the people, profits and
finance type of strategy.
But I would say these are thebiggest trends.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
The changemakers are the people that come up with the
ideas and they want to see apathway to make them happen and
implement them.
Are they change managers byprofession or are they already
integrated management people, orbasically people within an
organization?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah.
So I think they're definitelynot change managers I mean not
only not always, they are justpeople.
I think I would say they'remore entrepreneurial.
Perhaps, um, maybe it's to dowith generations, but I think
younger people are a little bitmore entrepreneurial, um or less
misadverse.
(11:17):
They can, they're happy to dosomething.
They, they see that biggerpurpose.
It's completely different to,um, what we would perceive the
purpose to be as people in our40s, right?
So I definitely think thatpeople that see they need to do
something and they would dosomething and it's not only
people, by the way, it's alsoorganizations that maybe smaller
(11:38):
organizations, maybe not thebig multinationals, but small
organizations that would see theneeds to impact positively
local societies or communities.
Or maybe they've always beenthere but we've just never
provided them an opportunity toactually be visible.
You know, maybe that's what itis, yeah, and I think it's um,
(12:00):
it's important for us to be ableto provide them with that
platform.
So you know, we should berecognizing effort is very
important.
It's often we think that.
I think it's more of a fixedmindset thinking that, you know,
we think that achievingsomething, the actual
achievement, is the goal.
It's actually not.
(12:21):
It's actually not, like thatwhat we should be praising is
the effort that we give in orderto create something, despite of
the outcome.
So sometimes the outcome can benegative, but the effort that
you have given.
You've actually grown throughthat and you've learned a lot,
(12:42):
and then perhaps you can move itto something else.
So that's my point of view,though.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I want to share with you a story related to what
you're talking about.
When I started running marathons, I thought the finish line was
the most important thing, andthat was maybe eight, nine years
ago.
And so I'll finish a marathonand I'm thinking that is it.
I finished the marathon, so thefinish line was the one that I
(13:13):
was after.
So one of the lessons that I'velearned over the years, mango,
is that the essence of themarathon is not, I mean, apart
from the effort you need to make.
The effort is not the finishline, it's the person you become
after the finish line and thenso when I think about projects
(13:35):
or change, yes, effort isimportant, but I would like to
know who you've become after 6to 12 months, or even more than
that, running a project, becauseonly I will be very interested
in you as a professional andyour development and what you've
(13:55):
learned throughout thisparticular process.
Not that we finished a projectand we moved on.
Is that what you're actuallyreferring to?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yes, yes, exactly, exactly that's what I'm
referring to, Because, so sure,it's very important to pause and
to reflect, and I think that'swhat Change Awards is about.
Right, you can pause andreflect on what you have
achieved over the last year orfive years, but actually, the
efforts, the learning,everything that has led to the
(14:29):
outcome like I said, regardlessof what the outcome is is the
thing that's the most important.
So, using your analogy, I'llgive you my story.
So I am not a marathon runner.
Uh, frankly, I'm very bad atrunning and I have this, I have
this app on my phone, and I'vehad it on my phone for I don't
(14:49):
know the last 10 years probably,which is very embarrassing.
It's called Coach to 5K.
So this is the app that teachesyou how to run 5K, and every so
often I would go on thetreadmill and every so often I
would switch on the app, andit's very easy.
By the way, you're supposed torun, I think, three days per
week.
It's built literally foolproof.
(15:12):
It's built to allow you tolearn your body to adjust in
time and learn to run the 5kregardless of your pace.
Okay, so you could be running5k in 45 minutes or an hour, it
doesn't matter.
So every so often I do that, Iswitch on the app and I, you
know, I just, yes, I feel likenow is the time I'm so
(15:33):
determined I'm definitely goingto go and within the next eight
weeks, 5k is mine.
And you know, determination isthere and I always finish, by
the way, whenever I start.
But starting from scratch, itfeels painful During this whole
running half an hour on thetreadmill, 35 minutes on the
(15:53):
treadmill maybe the first day,first week, is painful.
The second week you realizethat the actual act of running
is what is liberating, and youcan.
I, for example, I listen toaudio books when I run and then
that gives me that I don't know,it's like almost my mind gives
in to listening and the actionof running is just something
(16:16):
that is passive.
And I think that is the mostimportant thing, because you
learn.
Sure, you teach your body howto run for half an hour in order
to get that 5K, but the actualaction, that's the thing that is
actually liberating.
So so, going back to what yousaid before, which is that who
(16:37):
have you become after you?
You've gotten there, so youneed to appreciate the journey,
because that journey is what hasled you to become who you are
after you've run 5k, afteryou've run the marathon, after
you have finished that project.
That's the learning.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I want to ask you about change leadership.
In your experience, in youropinion and observation, what
are some of the key elementsthat leaders would need to
create in an organization, orcreate the right environment for
change?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
in an organization will create the right
environment for change.
So, in my opinion, what I wouldlike organizations to do is
create an environment forinnovation, to enable innovation
.
This is me, by the way.
I can't remember what was thename of this concept, but there
(17:38):
is this concept of blue mindsetand red mindset, and that is
organization.
That's understood as anorganization's mindset.
So you've got the red mindsetorganization so effectively.
That means that within theorganization, there is always a
number of things that you needto do operationally in order to
sustain the business right, andthat makes sense.
In order for us to make profitsand remain in the market, we
(18:05):
need to do those minimal thingsfive things, 10 things, whatever
, depending on the complexity.
However, in the long time,that's not enough.
We have plenty of examples oforganizations which have just
stuck in this red mindset, sothey have just continuously
delivered, regardless of whatwere the market trends,
(18:28):
regardless of the environmentaround them.
We're telling them to do, andthose organizations don't exist
anymore.
They have failed.
So that means that you need tocultivate the blue mindset, so
you always have to have thissustained operations, but you
always still should have this.
You should provide anenvironment for people to fail
(18:52):
to learn to innovate, and Ithink that is what the change
management allows.
So change management for me, isnot necessarily only about
helping organizations when theproject comes in and providing
the training, making sure thatpeople know what's going on for
them at the right time.
People know what's going on forthem at whatever, the right
(19:16):
time.
It's also about helping leadersto understand that they need to
create the right environment tomake the change possible,
whatever the change is.
So they need to source theideas from within the
organization in order to movethe organizations out of their
red mindset into the bluemindset and implement those
projects, or implement thosemini projects or mini processes
or whatever.
It is many reasons behind that.
(19:37):
Obviously, one of the reason isthat people are more motivated
because they feel that they havea lot of control over what they
do.
So that's um, um, you know,that's.
That, I think, is veryimportant.
People, especially these days,they want to feel that um, it's
a bilateral agreement, I come into deliver, but you come in and
you provide, but you also allowme to deliver the things that I
(20:00):
want to do.
Otherwise I'm unhappy and I cango and change and go work
somewhere else.
So for me personally, that iswhat I would like the leadership
to think about.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
And that is the blue sky thinking, which is basically
whilst we are keeping.
You know it's no longeracceptable and enough to keep
the lights on and sell what yousell.
What you're saying is that youalways got to have to create
this environment for people toexperiment and go out of their
(20:32):
normal responsibility, Becauseinnovation actually has got a
very positive impact on moralein the team, but you also think
that change managers can play anactive role in that environment
.
Can you double-click on that?
Can you actually go deeper intothat and can you double click
on that?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Can you actually go deeper into that?
Well, so I think that changemanagement is the way we look at
change management today, whichI think is rather limited,
because we look at this as aprocess that organizations,
change management professionals,follow in order to move people
from A to B.
That is the easiest way ofdoing it and we would say, in a
(21:20):
normal scenario, you will have avery common scenario.
I think this is the most commonscenario is that there is a
company.
They're implementing a I don'tknow a new ERP system.
They employ a bunch of projectmanagers, maybe a program
manager, depending on how big orsmall this is and they will
also employ change managementfunction.
(21:43):
Okay, and then again, dependingon complexity, but let's, you
know, let's keep it simple.
So there will be a changemanager.
They come in, they look at thebusiness change.
Okay, they'll do some impactassessment type of activities.
They'll figure out how to splitthe audiences.
They'll say, okay, audience one, they need to get this training
(22:04):
.
Audience B needs to get thattraining.
These are the communicationthat these people are going to
receive.
This is how are we going totrack it?
These are the kind of you knowwe're going to measure the way
that we are doing this at thispoint and at that point, and
hopefully by the end of theimplementation on day one, the
(22:24):
majority of the organizationthat is impacted by this change
is going to be feeling fairlyconfident in working on the new
system.
Okay, that's exactly what it is.
What I think is that changemanagement as such, it's
actually a broader concept.
(22:44):
It's much broader than thisBecause, effectively, if you go
and read all those books onchange management 101, they will
always start from the angle ofa human, of an individual right.
They will always teach a littlebit about the way that humans
(23:05):
perceive change.
They will always talk aboutthis.
They will always talk aboutthis.
They will always talk about themindset.
They will always talk about youknow your five stages of grief.
You freeze and freeze, etc.
Etc.
Yet actually in the corporatesetting, very rarely this is
(23:26):
there, was.
There's no practical, practicalapplication for it.
Really it's you still.
You know, when you are a changemanager, you still come in, use
some sort of model, whateverthe model you will be using and
just lead people through that.
So my point is that organizationchange management, or change
management, if you wish, is abroader concept and should be
considered as a broader concept,that human side of change, your
(23:52):
personal change, which weshould be talking about more,
should be also including theinnovation part of it, because
change always is a starter forinnovation, whatever the
innovation is.
So how do we affect thatindividual within the workplace?
(24:14):
What kind of environment weneed to create for that
individual in the workplace sothat individual feels that they
can go beyond, feels that theylike using our analogy, they
like the run.
They didn't necessarily feellike they need to finish or win
effectively, they just like that.
(24:36):
You know that's the length ofthat.
They like the processeffectively.
So that's how I see changemanagement and that's how I
would like this discipline tostart evolving.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
I want to add a little bit to that, I think and
I'm with you on that that firstof all, it is a personal
experience.
So and the second thing is thatwhat you're talking about here,
my girl which correct me if I'mwrong we need to focus a lot on
the mindset, not just theenvironment, and the mindset
(25:09):
around change, rather thanbecause we all go through our
own experiences differently, weall manage change differently.
At a personal level Socialcontract that I have with you
today as an employee I may likeyou today, but then you
introduce a change and I willnot like you tomorrow because
(25:29):
that's how it is.
And this is why we need tofocus a lot on the mindset and
the environment.
As you mentioned, it's a longgame better than the short game.
The short game is alwaysshort-term thinking, is always
going to cause problems for us,because you can finish a project
(25:51):
, you can finish the finish line, but then who cares if the
experience is bad and if theadoption is not there and you
start all over again?
And so my counsel always to mystakeholders I actually give
them the questions they shouldbe asking me and my fellow
(26:13):
change managers.
The questions include as aresult of this change strategy
and the way you would like theorganization to adopt the change
.
Why have you chosen thisparticular strategy?
How is that going to influencetheir change experience?
How is that going to influenceeven the engagement within the
(26:38):
organization?
How is that going to change themindset of people towards
change?
Now, that is what we're talkingabout here, margot.
It's very hard stuff and a verylong term in there.
Unfortunately, the challenge isthat majority of organizations
until now, they look at achallenge manager as a resource
(27:00):
that will come in there and getout within a certain period of
time.
Actually, they don't even get itA project manager will decide
to have a challenge manager inthere.
I think recently, over lastcouple of years, there's
definitely intention from ourchange management community to
have a better seat at the tableand that to have those
(27:22):
conversations and I always talkabout.
That's all well and good, butyou'd better say meaningful
stuff at the table and this iswhen you move from being in that
space to an influencer, whichis actually one of the award
(27:44):
categories I think that you had.
We need to move into theinfluencer zone, and that is not
an easy thing, However, it'sactually very rewarding.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yes, completely because I think so.
So two points.
Point number one is that I seeI see change as a skill okay,
because I think that if we look,it's just easier.
It's narrative around, it iseasier because skill is
something that you can learn,okay, skill is something that
(28:15):
you can get better at.
That goes back to your mindsetand 100 percent cover, honestly,
100% behind that, um, notionthat the mindset is very
important and organizationsshould be cultivating that
mindset.
Um, you know that curiosity,that you know that type of
mindset which is which is thegrowth.
We call it the growth mindset,right?
(28:36):
Um, that's, that's very muchbeneficial.
Um, we, as a change managementprofession, and particularly I
think that I would prefer, or Iwould like to see the bodies of
knowledge who define thestandard for change management
(28:58):
profession to actually be morechanging and cultivating change
and more modernizing as aprofession we need, like you
said, we need an influencer andI would say, given the way that
the market is currently thechange management market is
currently fixed, in a way, Iwould like to see those
(29:22):
organizations lead the way.
Okay, the reality is that theydon't lead the way.
It is what it is and perhapsthat's why I think the change
management profession needs tounite.
If the change managementprofession sees a development of
the profession, they should beuniting and they should be
(29:44):
trying to establish the new andmodern approach.
Because I think, like I said,organization change management
the one that we, like you said,when people get employed,
usually the project managercomes in and employs them.
That is just a snippet of theoffering that we've got.
Our offering is much broaderthan that, because our offering
(30:05):
is also touching the leadership,coaching, training, coaching,
touching that mindset part of it, which is literally people,
person to person, and thereforeis also really touching the
innovation part.
So organizations should belooking at change management
(30:26):
from a completely differentperspective.
The reality is different, right?
So we've got, like you said,we've got people that there is a
project you employ, come in,leave and that's it.
And that's why the changealways tended to happen, because
I felt that we owe it to theprofession to become visible.
Okay, because that professionis just invisible, and
(30:47):
particularly in the UK marketwhen we have an opportunity to
make it a chartered profession.
So it's a bit of a differentsetup in the UK, but you can get
a royal charter and yourprofession becomes more
professionalized, if that makessense, you know.
That's why I think we need thatunity.
We need that unity of thechange management profession
(31:09):
People who think that theoffering that they have and they
are currently offeringorganizations just not enough,
because they know they work inthose organizations and they
know that they can make a betterdifference but the contract,
like you said, the contract thatthey have with those
organizations is really reallylimited because it's much
(31:29):
smaller.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
That is the challenge .
You usually get given aparticular task and you've got a
time frame and then you'regoing to have to stick to the
game.
In fact, I am in a betterposition I should you know.
I'm grateful for what I am Overthe years I've become.
I am the one that chooses whichproject manager I work with.
(31:53):
So I am actually on theopposite side.
But that does not come until youhave a lot of credibility and
the value that you bring to theorganization and I have unmuted
my voice five, six years ago.
But then that comes with theresponsibility.
Obviously you're going to haveto deliver the value the moment.
(32:14):
You do it with one organizationor one project, or you know it
can build up on that.
Would you agree thatorganizations that train new
emerging change managers, likethe ProSci Institute, the Cotter
Institute I think the Cotter isprobably doing a lot of changes
now these organizations andeven the Change Management
(32:35):
Institute, I think they do somecertification these
organizations would need torethink the way they introduce
their certification and theirdegrees.
Oh, that's a difficult questionfor me.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
So look a bit sensitive, but look.
So we've got the Association ofChange Management Professionals
, which I think it's a USorganization that is building a
standard for change or has builta standard for change
management.
We also have the ChangeManagement Institute, which is
an Australian entity that issomewhat delivering that
(33:16):
standard.
These organizations and maybeI'll particularly talk from the
CMI perspective because ACMPhaven't been in depth really
engaged with that organizationbut this Change Management
Institute they are doing a lotof good.
So they are providing thatminimum qualification of what
(33:41):
are the minimum things that youneed to know in order to
potentially go into a project.
We know for a fact that 80% ofthe skill is, you know, learned
by doing in an actualenvironment.
20% is probably by readingsomething or learning from
somebody else.
So I think that they are inthis ballpark.
(34:01):
So these are the minimum thingsthat you need to know about
change management,organizational change management
, in order to go deliver aproject.
I can guarantee you that if youhave no experience and you have
just completed that training,you are going to struggle on the
project.
You still need to be.
You're nodding, I get that.
You are going to struggle on aproject and you still need to be
(34:22):
um, you can yeah, you'renodding, I get that you still
need to have somebody who'shelping you, because the in
reality and I think this is whatmakes the change management um
profession so exciting is thatreality is that people are the
biggest wild cards.
That's the reality and you needto work with people and you are
(34:46):
in an organization where thereis a change being introduced.
You will think, oh, okay, well,that's.
You know, that's a bit of acookie cutter for me, because
I've done this in organizationand let's say again again system
implementation Pretty muchcookie cutter.
I've done this before.
This is going to be exactly thesame here.
It's never like that and that'swhy this makes the organization
(35:08):
sorry.
This makes the changemanagement profession and work
really, really exciting, becauseevery time there is something
different, because you stillneed to be operating within the
environment that is built bypeople, because every single
organization is built by peopleand with people, and it's filled
(35:29):
with people.
Look, and all of theseorganizations on the other side
you know the Change ManagementInstitute, acmp, prosite, cota.
They are commercial entities.
They are commercial entities.
They are commercial entities,so they need to be making money.
They will need to make surethat the offering that they have
(35:50):
is the offering that isreflective of the market.
I would love them to stretch.
I would love them to stretchand I know that some of them are
stretching, by the way.
So I know that some of them arestretching by the way, so I
know that they are building newoffering to make sure.
Yeah, exactly so they are.
So they are making sure andwe've got.
As with anything in life, ittakes time.
(36:10):
Unfortunately, and this goesback to, I suppose, the
environment that we sit in atthe moment Change is really fast
.
So sometimes, when you aredeveloping a concept, after it's
developed and reviewed andreviewed again, and developed
again and tweaked, et cetera, etcetera, and then implemented to
(36:31):
the market for the bettermentof the change management,
profession development, if youwish, sometimes it's really
obsolete because the world hasmoved on so quickly.
So, unfortunately, some, somethings you cannot change.
But we still need thoseorganizations to to drive um
that standard and, like I saidbefore, ideally in the uk market
(36:56):
we need that unity behind theprofession that would allow us
to create that chartered statusfor the profession.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Looking for new unity .
Margot, you've got my voiceanyway behind you, so I can
support as much as I can.
I really like the idea that thewild card is the people, and
that is a tricky part as well.
The wildcard is the people, andthat is a tricky part as well.
I know that the Cota Instituteand the ProSci I'm involved with
(37:25):
both and I know that theycontinuously think about better
ways.
Look, personally, I do not haveany problem with the framework.
I do have a problem that wethink people would need to fit
within a framework and that'snot always the case.
Knowledge is important, but theapplication is a different game
(37:47):
.
But certainly knowledge isimportant.
There's no doubt about that aswell.
When I say organizations theeducation organizations would
need to rethink, it doesn't meanthat they are doing a bad job,
but the world is moving veryfast.
As you mentioned, and, similarto you, you're running the
(38:07):
Change Awards.
You're changing the types ofawards and the categories based
on what the market, what'shappening in the market.
So you're already responding tothe market forces in there and
that's how you run thisparticular initiative, which is
basically you know what otherorganizations would need to do.
(38:29):
But you were right, they arecommercial entities.
It's like a university.
Universities now, in the age ofAI, would need to rethink their
offerings and going forward.
Otherwise they will becomeobsolete because the technology
will take over.
So I am aware of the time.
I am thoroughly enjoying thisconversation.
(38:50):
You made me think about acouple of other things that I
haven't really thought about.
Final question to you what doessuccess mean to you when it
comes to change management?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Oh, my goodness, I think for me.
I'm still a practitioner, bythe way.
I still work for organizations.
You know one of the projectsthat I've done in the past okay,
I came in mid towards the end.
You know, sometimes that's howit happens for us we are called
(39:24):
in when things are notnecessarily going the right way.
I remember this one thing, whichwas a meeting.
It was a final meeting of theproject.
Some people were physically inthe location, in the office room
, some people were online on theother side location in the
office room, some people wereonline on the other side and we
(39:45):
had that final thank you and abit of gratefulness from the
leadership.
You know, we had donuts on thetable, that type of situation.
People had other bits and cakesand everything on the other
side.
And there was one thing thatreally stuck in my mind.
It was this gentleman whosuddenly clapped his hands and
(40:09):
said okay, we are ready for thenew one.
And I think that is the thingthat really makes me want to
work in change management,because you know that you have
made a difference.
And you haven't made it.
You haven't made a differenceyourself, but through
facilitating and aligning peoplewithin the organization, you've
made the difference, that theyare ready.
(40:29):
It wasn't an easy project.
They've done it very quickly.
You know people have lost jobs.
There was a lot of emotionalpart of it, but yet somebody
says, okay, we're ready for thenew one.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
I was familiar with it.
Fantastic.
I'm grateful for your time,Margot, and you know.
Thank you so much for joiningme in the In A Game of Change
podcast.
I'd love to get you back atsome stage, maybe next year, and
then we talk more about yourjourney with the Change Awards
and your personal journey.
(41:05):
We're going to put a lot ofinformation about you and the
Change Awards and the podcastinfo.
How would people connect withyou?
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Well, I think the easiest way is just to go to my
LinkedIn profile.
Just type in Margot Waldorf andthen you can find me over there
.
If you wanted to reach out tous on my LinkedIn profile, just
type in Margot Waldorf and thenyou can find me over there.
Yeah, and you know, if youwanted to reach out to us or
change your words, just go toour website.
There's a contact form, but youalso can find our email address
.
So I think that's the easiestway.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Thank you so much.
We're going to put all theinformation Margot until next
time.
Stay well and stay safe.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Thank you, margot.
Thank you for listening.
If you found this episodevaluable, remember to subscribe
to stay updated on upcomingepisodes.
Your support is trulyappreciated and, by sharing this
podcast with your colleagues,friends and fellow change
practitioners, it can help mereach even more individuals and
(42:06):
professionals who can benefitfrom these discussions.
Remember, and in my opinion,change is an enduring force and
you will only have a measure ofcertainty and control when you
embrace it.
Until next time.
Thank you for being part of theInner Game of Change community.
I am Ali Jammah, and this isthe Inner Game of Change podcast
(42:28):
.
Host
Ali Juma
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