March 21, 2025 • 45 mins
Welcome to The Inner Game of Change, the podcast that explores the evolving landscape of change management, leadership, and transformation.
In this episode, I’m joined by the remarkable Karen Ball, Senior Fellow at Prosci and author of The ADKAR Advantage: Your New Lens for Successful Change. Released in April 2024, Karen’s book offers a fresh and practical take on navigating change by embracing the power of the Prosci ADKAR Model.
With over 40 years of experience, Karen has helped countless individuals and organisations unlock the real benefits of successful change—both professionally and personally. As a seasoned change advisor, instructor, and CCMP™ professional, she brings a wealth of knowledge, energy, and passion to the conversation.
Today, we’ll unpack Karen’s insights from her book, explore why the ADKAR lens is more relevant than ever, and hear some real-world lessons from her extensive journey in the field of change.
I am grateful to have Karen chatting with me today.
About Karen
Karen Ball is author of "The ADKAR Advantage: Your New Lens for Successful Change", a Prosci publication released in April 2024. Her passion through the book is to help individuals and organizations realize the benefits of successful change, personally and professionally, by looking at change through the lens of the Prosci ADKAR Model.
Karen is a Senior Fellow at Prosci. Previously, she served as Prosci’s Executive Vice President of Research, Product and Marketing. She is a Certified Change Management Professional™ (CCMP™), Prosci executive instructor, and change advisor with over 40 years of professional experience. As a public speaker, Karen frequently shares her passion for all things ADKAR and change management in webinars, customer presentations, podcasts, and conference keynotes.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So the model itself hasn't changed.
What has changed is all of thedifferent ways that we
contextualize ADKAR.
So, whether it's projectmilestones you mentioned
waterfall versus agile, whereyou can have knowledge and
ability outcomes at each releaseor sprint you can embed ADKAR
from a milestone projectplanning perspective.
(00:21):
You can also use it as adiagnostic framework to go back
and examine what went wrong andwhat can we do better the next
time.
So I think it's more in theapplications of ADKAR and going
way beyond right.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
If it's an onion, you're just peeling back all of
Welcome to the Inner Game ofChange, the podcast that
explores the evolving landscapeof change management, leadership
and transformation.
I am your host, ali Juma.
(00:57):
In this episode, I am joined bythe remarkable Karen Ball,
senior Fellow at ProSci andauthor of the Ad Car Advantage
your New Lens for SuccessfulChange.
Released in April 2024, karen'sbook offers a fresh and
practical take on navigatingchange by embracing the power of
(01:18):
the ProSci Ad Car model.
With over 40 years of experience, karen has helped countless
individuals and organizationsunlock the real benefits of
successful change, bothprofessionally and personally.
As a seasoned change advisor,instructor and CCMP professional
, Karen brings a wealth ofknowledge, energy and passion to
(01:40):
the conversation.
To the conversation Today, wewill unpack Karen's insights
from her book, explore why theAd Car lens is more relevant
than ever and hear somereal-world lessons from her
extensive journey in the fieldof change.
I am grateful to have Karenchatting with me today.
Well, karen, thank you so muchfor joining me in the In a Game
(02:05):
of Change podcast.
I'm grateful for your timetoday.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Thank you, I'm so pleased to be here.
Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Thank you so much, karen.
So lovely to get anotherprofessional from the ProSci
Institute and we're going totalk about the ad car reimagined
I suppose I can say that andthat's you, based on your new
book.
But before we start talkingabout the book and the content
(02:35):
and you which which angle you'retackling, it would be fantastic
for you to introduce yourselfto my audience.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Sure, thank you.
Well, it's such a pleasure tobe here and to your listeners.
You know there's so manyamazing topics that you've
covered through the years, and Iknow one of the things that
comes up often when you talk topeople in the discipline of
change or change management iswhat is everybody's origin story
coming into this discipline?
Many of us have found our wayto this discipline from another
(03:06):
path and, for myself, I wasspending time in the information
technology space working with asystems integrator who was out
there developing and delivering,you know, multimillion dollar
(03:27):
solutions for organizations tohelp them manage their
information more effectively,and I kept getting tripped up by
what I saw was a significantproblem across all industries
and across all organizations,which is so much attention was
paid to the solutions and theway the solutions were being
developed and delivered, andtime and attention was not given
(03:49):
to the people to prepare themfor those solutions, to help
them come alongside and Iactually called it end user
advocacy.
I didn't even know what it,what the discipline was.
I just knew that there was abig missing hole, which is how
do we support people throughthose train change journeys that
(04:09):
they have to go on when theywork with an organization who is
in continuous improvement orresponsive to challenges that
sit in their marketplaces ortheir industries.
So I got introduced to changemanagement and I knew that was
the place I belonged, because Iam such such an empathic
(04:29):
conductor for people who areimpacted by change.
And then you added structure anddiscipline and research and
knowledge and understanding andlearning that the change is can
be modeled and successful changecan be modeled and repeated.
So when I found changemanagement, I knew I found my
home, and I've been working inthe discipline of change
(04:51):
management since 2006, workingwith just about every industry,
lots of different types ofchanges, and I joined ProSci in
2016 as I was using andleveraging almost all of the
full suite of models andmethodology and tools from
ProSci and I really found thatthey were the most applicable
(05:14):
and accessible and effective,and so I joined ProSci and have
been part of the product team,the executive team and then,
over the last year and a half,had an opportunity to rewrite or
provide an update to theoriginal ADKAR book that was
written in 2006.
So I find myself here from anIT background and, of course,
the focus is on people and theadoption side of the story.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I think we all come from different backgrounds and
we usually land in thisbeautiful discipline.
Let's talk about your book.
You looked at the book that waspublished in 2006, and then you
decided that it's time for arevision, an upgrade, a new way
of looking at this.
(05:58):
And this is a precise attemptto upgrade, to make the
framework more relevant to thecurrent situation.
So just walk us through veryquickly about your journey
around writing the book.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, you know it was gosh.
You know, anybody who's writtena book has stories to tell.
But it was an opportunity.
You know the first book, thefirst book, was published in
2006.
And Jeff Hyatt, who is ProSci'sfounder and actually the
creator of the ProSci AgCarmodel it was his first
(06:35):
publication to fully disclose,unpack, describe, apply all of
the different ways that he wasbringing the AgCar model to life
.
And, of course, almost 20 yearshas passed since he wrote that
first book.
And what has happened since Jeffpublished the ADKAR book in
2006 is, of course, we want tocontinue to amplify the promise
(07:00):
of ADKAR, the promise of havingan individual model that allows
people to make sense of changeand to find their way through
change at the individual level.
There's also, you know, theproof of ADKAR.
There's been almost 20 years ofdemonstrated benefit in
(07:22):
organizations around the world.
So when I was preparing thebook, I wanted certainly to
introduce ProSci's new researchas a research organization.
There's lots of new validationsor extensions of ADCAR from a
research perspective, but thepromise is all about the
outcomes and what people arerealizing as a result inside of
(07:42):
the proof and the evidence.
So, from promise to proof and Icollected stories in the book.
So I reached out to ProScicustomers and clients around the
world.
There's over 50 AgCar stories,20 countries, six continents,
just about everywhere around theworld, lots of different
industries to have people sharetheir outcomes of applying AgCar
(08:03):
, both individually andorganizationally, personally and
professionally.
So the proof and the examplesand the success stories are
critical.
And then, of course, thepractice.
We wanted to take moreextension around how change
practitioners leveragerecommendations and guidance to
(08:24):
help lead and guideorganizations through those
individual change journeys.
So I'd say what's new, better,different in the update is more
around the promise, the proofand the practice.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
That's a huge undertaking for you to go around
and ask for stories andvalidations and you would have
heard the good stories.
What would be some of themisconceptions that you've come
across?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
you know, when you talk about ADKAR to
practitioners andnon-practitioners, yeah, that's
a great question and I think youknow one of the things that's a
clarifying point that wecontinue to talk about.
I hear lots of people say theADKAR methodology.
We follow the ADKAR methodology.
Well, actually, adkar is amodel and, just for your
(09:12):
listeners who may not befamiliar, it is an acronym and
it stands for awareness, desire,knowledge, ability and
reinforcement.
And when Jeff was originallyimagining this, what he was
doing, it was interesting.
He was studying the changepatterns inside of organizations
in the late 1990s and he wasfascinated by the question of
(09:35):
why do some changes succeed andother changes fail.
So he started researching he'san engineer, so the question was
really challenging to him.
So he looked at change patternsacross oh gosh, 700
organizations over four yearsand started coming to, you know,
the pattern spotting Anytimeyou look at a significant amount
(09:56):
of data and information, andwhat he discovered is that the
secret to successful change isin how we support every single
person who's impacted by change,going through their own change
journey, and that's what ADKARrepresents is the individual
model for change.
And then, as a methodology, itsits inside of the pro-sign
(10:19):
methodology, which is a threephase process that goes into
greater detail about engagementand preparing an approach and
looking at the risk of a changefrom a people perspective,
articulating you know how toengage senior leaders and people
managers and to docommunications and training, and
then assessing whether or notthe change is successful and
(10:39):
adapting as you go along the way.
So ADKAR one of themisconceptions is ADKAR is a
methodology and that's all thereis, but it's actually the model
.
It's a model that describes theindividual change process and
it helps us make sense of changeand it helps us know if the
things that we're doing areworking.
(10:59):
Know if the things that we'redoing are working.
So it informs what to do, whoshould be doing it, what we
should say, how we should engage, and then we can measure our
accomplishment through an ADKARjourney and determine if it's
working.
So again, I continue to thewords sense making right.
Adkar helps us make sense ofchange at the individual level
(11:22):
and its way finding, so we canscan and act Right.
We can scan and say, oh gosh,everybody's really not able to
articulate very clearly why aparticular change is needed.
We need to go back and makesure our communications are from
the right senders with theright messages, hitting people
at the right times with theright information to help them
(11:42):
go through awareness at the verybeginning of the model.
So that's one of themisconceptions.
So the other thing is it's youknow, it's all we need.
Adcar is the helper model, Ithink of it.
So if you're going on a hikeright, and we're doing a big
hike, you might need a compassright to keep you on path.
So ADCAR is like a compass.
(12:02):
But if you're doing a big,complex hike, it'd probably be
useful to also have a trailguide and a map.
Right, maybe you need atopography that tells you what
the elevations are across thehike.
So ADCAR keeps us continuouslypointed in the right direction.
But we incorporate lots ofother elements in the process of
(12:25):
change management to make surewe're getting to the destination
of our hike, which is the endwhere successful change is found
.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
I want to ask you a question around what is the
adverse effect of people callingit a methodology rather than a
model?
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, I think they lose some of the nuance of its
context.
Right, in a simple change, justarticulating an ad card journey
can be quite useful todetermine awareness.
We just communicate.
Why why now?
What if we don't?
We just communicate.
Why why now?
What if we don't?
Desire is about the personalchoice that every person makes
to come alongside a change,right to of leaders, engagement
(13:08):
of key influencers,communication, training,
(13:31):
integration with change agentnetworks, all of the different
levers that we might pull insideof a change strategy or set of
change management plans.
That ADKAR is our compass tokeep us on track.
So I think it's just, you know,adkar works.
You know, in an individualchange, working with a personal
scenario.
Right, adkar is quite powerful,but I think it's just the
intensity of taking it into thediscipline of change management
(13:55):
and how much more we are able tofocus our time and attention on
the right things at the righttime to deliver the outcomes
that we're trying to achieve.
So it's just the difference ofa compass that keeps us on point
and right in direction versusall of the other supporting
resources that might surroundADKAR to accomplish a particular
change and deliver outcomes toan individual or an organization
(14:18):
.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
And from the number of interviews and interactions
that you've had with the clientsover the years.
I want to ask you two questions.
One is that where have you seenADCA being applied and you
thought this is really acreative way of applying ADCA?
And the second question, Isuppose, is where would most
(14:42):
organizations struggle, you know, is it in the awareness?
Is it from the knowledge toability that transfer?
The microphone is yours.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah.
So to your first question,right, some really creative
examples of ADKAR application.
As I said, you know, Icollected, you know, over 50
stories coming into the creationof the book and I was going
through and reading them and itwas quite fascinating how people
had done, you know, indifferent countries with
cultural adaptations.
There was one, an organizationin Japan that you know again,
(15:17):
culturally things are differentfor businesses inside of Japan
versus some other countries.
So the way that they developeda grassroots effort around a
particular set of changes and itwas employee driven they felt
like they weren't able toconnect all the dots, if you
will, between lots of differentchanges that were going on.
(15:39):
So they started, you know,crowdsourcing information from
lots of different sources sothat it became people impacted
by change, helping other peopleimpacted by change versus a top
down approach.
So it was very interesting.
It was all around, you know,awareness of why, why?
Now, what if we don't?
Most of them were fully engagedin trying to support the
(16:01):
changes and then getting theknowledge and ability tasks.
There's another organizationthat decided not to introduce
the language of ADKAR.
They didn't want to create thecommon language that's so
frequently adopted acrossorganizations, because they just
didn't want to have to go andtalk to every person in the
(16:22):
organization, leveraging ADKARas the language, but yet they
took the steps of ADKAR withoutdescribing it.
So, for example, they talkedabout a workshop that they
delivered for lots of people whowere impacted by a significant
change, and they had everybody'smark on a poster.
(16:42):
You know, oh, I'm fully, I'mfully aware of why this change
is happening, or I have chosento participate and to come
alongside this change.
I know how to do what I'm beingasked to do.
And people were just markingeach of those and little did
they know they were actuallydoing an ad car assessment so
that the people who wereimplementing that change could
(17:02):
step back and go.
Oh my gosh, an awful lot ofpeople are not understanding why
they were doing this andhaven't chosen participate.
We've got awareness and desirebarriers.
So then they went back andfocused on, you know, filling
the gaps and making sure theywere delivering the information
that was needed to helpeverybody through those two
critical aspects.
Because it's a sequential model, you know, if you don't have
(17:23):
awareness and desire, you knowit's.
It's not email on Monday fortraining on Tuesday, for go live
on Wednesday, where you givepeople a chance to to understand
the change, come alongside itand then develop their knowledge
and ability to reinforce it.
There's an organization that'sin there.
It's a pharma, you know, aglobal pharmaceuticals
organization with 50,000 peopleimpacted by they said gosh
(17:47):
almost 1500 digital migrationsinto a completely new technical
platform and they completelyarchitected that change effort
through the lens of ADCAR.
They described every impactedgroup's change journey and
activated all of the steps andactions around ADKAR journeys.
(18:09):
So, you know, quite large andcomplex, all the way down to
individual change.
There's a story in the book ofa gentleman by the name of
Graham who taught himself toswim in his 30s.
His wife challenged him thatthat was a life skill she wanted
him to have as they werestepping into parenthood, and so
he tells a funny story aboutgoing through his own learning
(18:30):
journey of learning how to swimwith awareness and desire.
And so much of it was theknowledge to ability going, you
know, being you know, knowingwhat you're supposed to do to
swim but being able to swim aretwo different things.
And then, of course,reinforcement having that skill
and keeping up that skill.
So lots of different stories,lots of different examples.
(18:51):
I think the common pattern inall of this is that ADKAR allows
us to make change, which can bequite complex complex at the
organizational level and itmakes it personal and individual
, and that's why so many changepractitioners work with the
ADKAR models.
It's simple to describe it.
(19:11):
It resonates with peoplebecause it captures the essence
of what truly is the process ofchange.
It's also very actionable andit builds a lot of confidence.
You know your question aboutwhere do people get stuck Most
of the time.
Well, lots of the times thatI'm doing ADKAR journeys for
personal change, we teach ADKARthrough applying it to a
(19:35):
personal change a friend, afamily member, a neighbor, a
colleague, someone in our closecircle who's struggling with a
change, and oftentimes, when youput it in the context of a
personal change, people comeback with desire as the hardest
step right.
The choice that we all make toparticipate and engage in a
(19:55):
change and that's because youknow what needs to, needs to be
clear is what are, you know, howdoes this resonate with me?
My personal motivators, what'sin it for me?
What is the reason that I wantto choose to participate in this
change?
Inside of organizations A lotof times, the barrier or the
place where people get stuck orwe encounter a lot of resistance
(20:15):
, is right at awareness, becauseorganizations aren't
necessarily great atarticulating why for a change?
Not that a change is happening.
Right, we're going to implementa new ERP system.
Right, why are we implementingthis system?
You know what are theorganizational benefits, what
are the project objectives?
Why should I want to comealongside this change in support
(20:38):
of the health of theorganization?
So desire often shows up inpersonal changes as the barrier,
but a lot of times it'sawareness right at the front end
of the AgCar model and once weunlock that, you know, it's very
clear what the steps are andwhat people need and how you can
support them through theirAgCar journeys and the tailored
interventions that come out ofit.
If I've got a particularemployee, for example, who just
(21:01):
isn't really it isn't connectingand they're not coming
alongside the change, you can goin with very specific coaching
conversations and find thoseinterventions to help them
through their ADKAR journey.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
And these interventions are very critical
because ADKAR is not a linearprocess.
So sometimes you create anawareness and you think you've
informed everyone.
And then you do some pulsecheck, sense making, and then
you discover that you probablyneed to go back to the awareness
(21:32):
and create that Becauseorganizations change, especially
when you're driven by lots ofcomplex things happening within
the organization.
My personal experience, karen,is that and I always think that
that is a good test of a goodchange management practitioner
(21:54):
is that jump from the knowledgeto ability.
Do I want, do I know what Ineed to do?
Yes, I know.
Do I know how to do it?
And unfortunately that isusually sacrificed because, um,
because a project is good attimeline, they've got a budget,
they've got a scope, you knowthat they need to finish.
So there's always this tensionbetween the challenge managers
(22:19):
trying to do to to spend moretime to you, time to bridge that
gap, and then you've got theproject managers saying we've
got only two weeks to do that.
And my counsel has always beenwe need to be fully aware
between what learning is andwhat training is, and then the
application of all of these, andthat's where the secret.
(22:41):
So I always think that most ofmy observations anyway, working
with other change managers, isthat we pretty much are okay
with the awareness and createwhat's in it for the people, but
unfortunately sometimes we movevery quickly away through that
(23:01):
particular period or those twostages of the model and because
we move very quickly and then wespend very minimum time in
reinforcement and then we leaveit and then, as you and I would
know, and that's the problemright.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
I mean, the change is actually real when it's
happening.
Right Up to that point I canonly imagine, right, I went to
training and I learned what I'msupposed to know, how to do, but
just because I know how doesn'tmean I'm able.
And that knowledge to abilitygap is one that we see
organizations push far tooquickly through and just as
(23:41):
you've said, right, well, whatabout the time to do that?
We've got new measurement,we've got new performance
criteria.
You know whether it's a mindsetor a process or a tool, or you
know there's, there's anadoption piece that happens
after the changes is instantiate, right, it's very real to me
what's what's happening.
And what I'd say is if you don'tdo that work right, if you
(24:02):
don't do the work of filling thegap from knowledge to ability
and that could be a very smallgap or it could be, you know,
quite large, depending on thenature of the change you're
going to pay for it somehow,right, you're going to have less
than complete adoption.
You're going to have peoplepushing back and demonstrating
resistance and and sometimeseven, you know, trying to
(24:24):
sabotage the change itselfbecause they're not able to do
what they're being asked to do.
So you'll pay for it some way,you know, through a rework or
relaunch or redo or retreat,where we retreat from the change
because there's so muchdemonstrated pushback, and and
then you just create more of ahistory of failed change back,
(24:45):
and then you just create more ofa history of failed change.
And that's one of the thingsthat makes me, you know, sad for
organizations when they don'tdo the right things and they
continue to create this historyof failed change which erodes
trust, and trust is really hardto regain once it's eroded.
So, yeah, to just sit down andfigure out what is the knowledge
to ability gap and how are wegoing to support people, and we
(25:07):
can be quite creative, you know,with coaching or peer
influences or time away fromdesk work to get into learning
mode.
What you said, you knoweducating somebody and then
understanding and learning aretwo different things.
Telling and applying are twodifferent things.
So it's an intentional step inthe process and one that we know
is critical to successfuloutcomes, because, you know, the
(25:28):
ROI of a change comes fromability, not from training.
Right?
It's once people are able towork in the new environment that
we actually get the benefits ofthe change that's being
introduced.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Where would you see?
Usually resistance heightens up.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, and that happens right.
We know from research that youknow, resistance peaks at a dot
at the time of go live, whateverthe go live event is, because
that's when everything feelsquite real.
But I'd also say we really, youknow, at ProSag we've been
doing a lot of reframing,especially with, you know, the
new extension of demonstratingADKAR in use and in practice and
(26:06):
the benefits and results is tothink about ADKAR as your tool
for change readiness.
That will eliminate asignificant amount of the
resistance that could occur orwould occur otherwise.
So instead of talking aboutchange resistance, it's so much
more positive to talk aboutchange readiness.
And the reason people getresistant to change is they
(26:28):
weren't made ready for thosechanges.
So readiness versus resistanceis a great conversion.
And then, once you seeresistance happening, you can
get to the root cause and say,well, it could be on the
technical side of the change.
You know the solution that'sbeing implemented may miss the
mark.
Right, the requirements weren'tdefined correctly, or the
solution that was developed, theprocess, the system, the role,
(26:51):
clarity that we intended justdidn't land, whatever it is.
So then you can just get tothat emergent resistance and so
much of what we could havesmoothed the process from the
current state to the futurestate occurs by intentionally
helping everyone through thosead card journeys.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Talking about the emerging resistance and it's
actually a very valid topic Iwant to ask you, maybe bordering
on a philosophical question Isit in our nature, Karen, to
resist change anyway, regardlessof what you do?
Is that part of who we are ashumans?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
You know resistance to change is something that you
know you can talk topsychologists, neuroscientists.
You can talk at the psychologyof change you know people talk
about.
You know fight and flight andthe things that feel very
threatening to us.
Right, and, and a threat couldjust be a threat to my knowledge
base.
It could be a threat to my ego.
It could be a threat to, um,you know where I see myself in
(27:56):
the future, because theorganization's going in a path
that I didn't plan for when Iwas mapping out what my journey
was going to look like.
So there's lots of places itcan derive from, and I and I,
and there's always going to besomething that's natural about
resistance.
You know it is one of those youknow as humans, right, at any
time we're being feel, feelingany sense of threat, right,
(28:17):
there's a fight or flightresponse to that.
But I think that we're alsoquite capable of putting the
logic around why resistancemight occur and figuring out how
to head it off before it does.
And I've been involved in manylarge scale change journeys
where you know the day that thechange is live, right, let's
(28:38):
just say it's a systems changeand we're turning on new tools
and going live with areplacement platform of
technology and all of a suddenyou're looking around waiting
for the resistance to come upand it just doesn't.
Because we engaged people in theprocess.
They had input into the designof the solution.
They gave us the opportunity toshare what they were most
(29:01):
concerned about early in theprocess and we went to root
cause and mitigation early inthe process.
And we went to root cause andmitigation early in the cycles
and we gave them the language toask for what they needed in the
change process.
And all of those things lendthemselves to an incredibly
smooth introduction of change.
(29:22):
And, of course, things aregoing to pop up and you're going
to have unanticipated resultsor responses or somebody has
been sitting in the sidelinewaiting for something to go
wrong and pouncing on it.
But that's where you engageyour leaders and you engage your
people managers and give themthe skills to coach people and
to help them.
You know, be the be theresistance managers at the front
(29:42):
line.
But you know, I'm not one tobelieve that, you know,
resistance can completely beeliminated, but it sure can be
mitigated and managed throughoutthe process.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
My personal belief is that, of course, they're going
to have to be suspicious aboutthe change.
That is normal.
That's natural, in fact, ifI've got complete apathy to
change, if I've got completeapathy to change, then I should
be worried, I would too right.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
If it's too quiet, then people aren't listening
right when they're respondingand they've been giving the
safety of speaking up andthere's a culture of listening
and understanding what theirconcerns are.
That is so culture building.
It is so resonating to peopleto feel like their voice matters
and to be part of the processand, after all, really that's
that's what we all want, right?
We want to be appreciated andto be part of the process and
(30:36):
know that our voice matters andthat I'm bringing something to
this conversation.
I see something that othersdon't and I love those
conversations.
To me, those are the placeswhere you find you find the
little, the little cracks thatif we can hit them now, right,
the end product is going to beso much better.
But if it's too quiet, to methat's that's a warning sign
(30:58):
that they're waiting or they'renot paying attention.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, yeah, talking about management and I think you
mentioned that in your responsehow important is it to educate
management on the ADKAR model?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's critical.
Putting you know, it's twodifferent things.
Right ADKAR introduces amindset that we can describe the
individual change process.
It's back to sense, making.
Right.
Adcar makes change, make sense,and it's so simple in its
elegance of clarity around eachof the milestones that ADCAR
(31:38):
describes.
Adcar is an outcome, it's not anactivity.
Awareness is an outcome, not anactivity.
Communication is the activity.
Awareness is the outcome.
Training, not an activity.
Communication is the activity.
Awareness is the outcome.
Training is an activity.
Knowledge is the outcome.
Coaching is an activity.
Ability and reinforcement arethe outcomes.
So, to put that into the, oh mygosh, I've seen some of the most
(32:00):
amazing coaching conversationsthrough the lens of ADCAR.
Do you know why this change ishappening?
Yes, I'm fully on board.
Have you chosen to participate?
Yes, I get it.
I understand the benefits tothe organization and what's in
it for me.
Do you have the knowledge thatyou need?
Yes, I do.
I feel comfortable.
What about ability?
And I go?
You know there's a problemthere.
Right, I was the subject matterexpert on the software we're
(32:21):
shutting down.
I'm really threatened by that.
How can we step me into thatrole in the new environment?
And the people manager now has aplace to have a really
purposeful conversation withvery specific interventions for
a particular person.
So it's mindset and tool setand it's one of those things
(32:43):
that just becomes intuitive,right.
I can look at a situation andimmediately assess the sponsors
not engaged or the peoplemanagers don't know how to
support their people and thepeople in the organization don't
want the change practitioner orthe project leaders to do that
work.
They want their own managers orsupervisors to come alongside
them.
You know it's like I walk inand they go who are you and why
(33:04):
are you here?
But I can sit down with thatpeople leader and say if you do
this conversation or you look atthe challenge through the lens
of ADCAR, look what's availableto you, right, you can see what
it is, you can look around andit can make sense.
You can engage with others inthe organization with the common
language and the commonunderstanding of that individual
change process.
(33:31):
And what I've heard in seniorleaders you know, middle line
managers, front line managers ishow how much confidence it
boosts and how efficient it isthat you don't get lost in the
tangential things around changebut you have very purposeful
conversations and you givepeople a chance to engage in a
way that they feel seen andheard, but also it's in the
intention of helping themthrough the process.
(33:51):
So it's quite useful and to me,you know, universally it should
be part of you know managementtraining programs to introduce
this.
I do sponsor briefings and I dopeople manager training and and
at car, you know, people justresonate so quickly and I get
emails all the time.
I did one last week for a bunchof a group of people leaders
(34:12):
and the response was ADCAR is soempowering for me and my
leadership role.
So I think it should beuniversal.
It teaches us to see thingsdifferently and to respond
differently.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
And that's.
I think you mentioned the ideathat a challenge manager becomes
the coach for the manager ofthe team, because we need them
to be on board.
They will be the one sharingthe messages, not us.
Yes, and I want to shift gearand I want to ask you about and,
by the way, I just want to forclarification that ADCA applies
(34:48):
in an agile methodology and thenormal, you know, waterfall
methodology whatever that isactually applies.
It applies as an individual, ata team level, at an
organizational level.
I'm testing my knowledge here,karen, but I want to share with
you something that I've beenexperimenting with and please
(35:09):
give me critique my work.
I've been using generative AInowadays to help me co-pilot in
Microsoft, to actually help mewith my planning, with looking
at what areas perhaps I need to,you know, analyze more and pay
attention to more.
Is that a conversation that youstarted to hear nowadays about?
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Absolutely, and you know precise early development.
Already we have an enginecalled Kaya that leverages our
over 25 years of research inthis space and you know, the
amazing thing is it, it does.
It's like the first draft.
So if I'm going to be doing abriefing with a sponsor, you
know I've got a client next week.
(35:55):
I'm going to be working withthat.
I've been told the clientsponsor, the senior leader, sees
the value of change management,but they just don't really
understand their role in changemanagement.
What is it that I need to do?
So I can, you know, look at,you know the research and go to
Kaya or the generative AI toolsand say what are the key points,
what are the three things Ishould tell a senior leader
(36:16):
about the importance of theirrole, of being an effective
sponsor of change?
And immediately it's researchbased.
I get you know three answersquickly and then I can look at
it and say, ok, now, in thiscontext, do those make sense?
So I feel like the fast firstright, the fast first draft.
You know, build me a two hourworkshop for people leaders and
what should be on the agenda.
Boom, boom, boom.
You know, you have a two hourworkshop for people leaders and
(36:37):
what should be on the agenda.
Boom, boom, boom.
You know you have to introducethat car.
You need to talk about theirrole, you know.
You know all the things that weknow from our research and our
and our practice.
So I feel like it's you know,it's like an intern sitting
there next to me I can say hey,you know, run me a quick first
draft and then I can use myknowledge and intuition and my
context.
(36:58):
Right, we have to take it intothe context of an organization.
So what is the culture of theorganization?
What is the history of thatparticular senior leader?
What is the style of peopleengagement inside of an
organization?
Are there key influencers I canreach out to?
I mean, those are where myknowledge and intuition kick in.
But absolutely I can get a fastfirst draft of you know, steps
(37:22):
and actions.
That's research informed.
That helps me.
You know, focus on theintuition side versus on the
building side.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Thoroughly love the idea of a fast first.
I'll use that actually today,karen, so thank you for that.
You're welcome.
Of a fast first.
I'll use that actually today,karen, so thank you for that.
Actually, actually, sometimesgenerative AI can give you the
fast second as well, so ifyou're paying with it, the
second right answer.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Right, because once you get to that place of
intuition and you can say tellme more here.
Right, I want to push into thisnuance or this pattern, but
it's telling me what it knowsfrom the body that it's been
given.
So sometimes the collection ofwhat it's reacting to isn't
everything that it needs Because, again, there's so many
(38:12):
disciplines that come into play,there's so many adjacencies to
change work in other disciplines, that again, that's where you
could sit down with a team ofpeople and say here's our fast
first or our even better second,and then you put your intuition
and your knowledge against itand you end up with a really
good outcome from that process.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
My application recently was when I had a first
meeting with a project group andI was able to obviously
summarize the meeting usinggenerative AI and I questioned,
based on all the transcription,I've asked Co-Pilot, which is a
(38:54):
Microsoft application based onthe ADCA model, to really
highlight where the issue is,and it's actually giving me good
rationale around.
Awareness is probably okay, butsomebody mentioned this and Ali
mentioned this, and, based onall of those nuances, I've got a
(39:15):
case to think.
Well, perhaps I need to focuson what's in it for them, and
this is what's going to comeback in my communication Again,
when I emphasize the point thatyou mentioned.
The context is important andthat's where we come, as a human
, in the loop when it comes togenerative AI.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Absolutely, because the culture is the culture of an
organization.
You know, I've worked in so manydifferent organizations over
the years and sometimes theculture is quite hierarchical
and other times that is muchmore collaborative.
And if I'm in a hierarchical,top down driven scenario, I'm
going to recommend differenttactics than if it's in a very,
(39:56):
you know, collaborative.
Then if it's in a very, youknow collaborative and you know
a tactic in a collaborativeenvironment is to get people
together and, you know, do theproblem solving and the pattern
spotting as a team versus tryingto help a leader of an
organization, do that cascadeRight and top down.
We have to be an effectivecascade, you know scenario Right
.
We have to have the tactics tocascade the message versus, you
(40:16):
know, delivering the co-createdsolutions.
So context is critical and Ithink the AI tools are going to
be amazing aids to us in theprocess to free up that research
time, thinking time and put itinto the more you know intuition
, application and what we do,you know, day to day to fit
(40:39):
inside of the context that we'reworking in.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
I love this.
Thank you, I am aware of time.
There is a question that I wantto ask you.
What would be your advice to me?
I've been in the business ofchange for quite a while.
What would be your advice forpeople like me to rethink and
maybe revise the way we look atADKAR from where you sit?
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Yeah, I mean.
What I know to be true and thisis, you know, bears out in
research and in application isthe five elements of ADKAR have
not changed since Jeff Hyattimagined the model and
articulated it in the 1990s, andthe reason is it is the
description of that individualchange process.
It is the process that everysingle one of us goes through to
(41:24):
adopt and sustain a change.
So the model itself hasn'tchanged.
What has changed is all of thedifferent ways that we
contextualize ADKAR.
So, whether it's projectmilestones you mentioned
waterfall versus agile where youcan have knowledge and ability
outcomes at each release orsprint you can embed ad car from
(41:45):
you know, a milestone projectplanning perspective.
You can also use it as adiagnostic framework to go back
and examine what went wrong andwhat can we do better the next
time.
So I think it's more in theapplications of adAR and going
way beyond right.
If it's an onion, you're justpeeling back all of the layers
(42:05):
and you know, even to the pointwhere we think of ADKAR, as you
know, the building of changecapability and to build change
capability through the lens ofADKAR, because we have a current
state, we have a future state,we have people who are impacted.
We have the journeys.
So I would say you know it'sjust continue to push into the
(42:26):
applications and you know itcontinues to be true, it
continues to grow in relevanceand use because it does
represent what happens inreality and it makes it such an
actionable framework.
So I'd say, you know, whenyou're ready and people are
ready to go deeper than theindividual model, you know,
start looking at all theadvanced applications of Adcar.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
I love this.
I thoroughly enjoyed thisconversation, Karen.
How would people connect withyou?
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Yeah, the best way to contact with me, you know.
Connect with me, you can, youknow, for information on ProSci,
of course, reach out to youknow, proscicom.
I'm available to be connectedin LinkedIn.
That's my sweet spot for whereI spend my time and spend most
of my professional connections.
So it's KarenBall26 at LinkedInand I'd love for people to
reach out and ask these deepdive questions.
(43:14):
The more we think about thistogether, the better outcomes
we're all going to achieve.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I love that, and you mentioned the word outcome so
many times, so congratulations.
You got your message loud andclear during the podcast.
I hope I can get you back,karen, in the future at some
stage and talk more about theadvancement of the model and the
applications in particular andthe stories.
(43:41):
But until next time, stay welland stay safe, karen, and thank
you so much for your time.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Thanks, ali, great spending time with you.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for joining me on theInner Game of change.
I hope today's conversationoffered you something to reflect
on, something to challenge orsomething to carry forward in
your journey of change andgrowth.
As always, I'm grateful foryour time, your curiosity and
(44:11):
your willingness to explore theinner game that shapes the outer
impact.
I will leave you with thisthought Change is hard at first,
messy in the middle andgorgeous at the end.
That's what Robin Sharma said.
Until next time, take care andkeep leading with courage and
curiosity.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
The focus is on the simplification of the language.
Right.
The way to get something out tomore people is it needs to make
sense.
Right.
And then it needs to be useful.
Right, usable and useful.
And that's what we know to betrue.
Ad car is incredibly usable anduseful and you know we're
better off with it than we wouldbe without.
So the model itself hasn't changed.
What has changed is all of thedifferent ways that we
contextualize ADKAR.
So, whether it's projectmilestones you mentioned
waterfall versus agile, whereyou can have knowledge and
ability outcomes at each releaseor sprint you can embed ADKAR
from a milestone projectplanning perspective.
(00:21):
You can also use it as adiagnostic framework to go back
and examine what went wrong andwhat can we do better the next
time.
So I think it's more in theapplications of ADKAR and going
way beyond right.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
If it's an onion, you're just peeling back all of
Welcome to the Inner Game ofChange, the podcast that
explores the evolving landscapeof change management, leadership
and transformation.
I am your host, ali Juma.
(00:57):
In this episode, I am joined bythe remarkable Karen Ball,
senior Fellow at ProSci andauthor of the Ad Car Advantage
your New Lens for SuccessfulChange.
Released in April 2024, karen'sbook offers a fresh and
practical take on navigatingchange by embracing the power of
(01:18):
the ProSci Ad Car model.
With over 40 years of experience, karen has helped countless
individuals and organizationsunlock the real benefits of
successful change, bothprofessionally and personally.
As a seasoned change advisor,instructor and CCMP professional
, Karen brings a wealth ofknowledge, energy and passion to
(01:40):
the conversation.
To the conversation Today, wewill unpack Karen's insights
from her book, explore why theAd Car lens is more relevant
than ever and hear somereal-world lessons from her
extensive journey in the fieldof change.
I am grateful to have Karenchatting with me today.
Well, karen, thank you so muchfor joining me in the In a Game
(02:05):
of Change podcast.
I'm grateful for your timetoday.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Thank you, I'm so pleased to be here.
Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Thank you so much, karen.
So lovely to get anotherprofessional from the ProSci
Institute and we're going totalk about the ad car reimagined
I suppose I can say that andthat's you, based on your new
book.
But before we start talkingabout the book and the content
(02:35):
and you which which angle you'retackling, it would be fantastic
for you to introduce yourselfto my audience.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Sure, thank you.
Well, it's such a pleasure tobe here and to your listeners.
You know there's so manyamazing topics that you've
covered through the years, and Iknow one of the things that
comes up often when you talk topeople in the discipline of
change or change management iswhat is everybody's origin story
coming into this discipline?
Many of us have found our wayto this discipline from another
(03:06):
path and, for myself, I wasspending time in the information
technology space working with asystems integrator who was out
there developing and delivering,you know, multimillion dollar
(03:27):
solutions for organizations tohelp them manage their
information more effectively,and I kept getting tripped up by
what I saw was a significantproblem across all industries
and across all organizations,which is so much attention was
paid to the solutions and theway the solutions were being
developed and delivered, andtime and attention was not given
(03:49):
to the people to prepare themfor those solutions, to help
them come alongside and Iactually called it end user
advocacy.
I didn't even know what it,what the discipline was.
I just knew that there was abig missing hole, which is how
do we support people throughthose train change journeys that
(04:09):
they have to go on when theywork with an organization who is
in continuous improvement orresponsive to challenges that
sit in their marketplaces ortheir industries.
So I got introduced to changemanagement and I knew that was
the place I belonged, because Iam such such an empathic
(04:29):
conductor for people who areimpacted by change.
And then you added structure anddiscipline and research and
knowledge and understanding andlearning that the change is can
be modeled and successful changecan be modeled and repeated.
So when I found changemanagement, I knew I found my
home, and I've been working inthe discipline of change
(04:51):
management since 2006, workingwith just about every industry,
lots of different types ofchanges, and I joined ProSci in
2016 as I was using andleveraging almost all of the
full suite of models andmethodology and tools from
ProSci and I really found thatthey were the most applicable
(05:14):
and accessible and effective,and so I joined ProSci and have
been part of the product team,the executive team and then,
over the last year and a half,had an opportunity to rewrite or
provide an update to theoriginal ADKAR book that was
written in 2006.
So I find myself here from anIT background and, of course,
the focus is on people and theadoption side of the story.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I think we all come from different backgrounds and
we usually land in thisbeautiful discipline.
Let's talk about your book.
You looked at the book that waspublished in 2006, and then you
decided that it's time for arevision, an upgrade, a new way
of looking at this.
(05:58):
And this is a precise attemptto upgrade, to make the
framework more relevant to thecurrent situation.
So just walk us through veryquickly about your journey
around writing the book.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, you know it was gosh.
You know, anybody who's writtena book has stories to tell.
But it was an opportunity.
You know the first book, thefirst book, was published in
2006.
And Jeff Hyatt, who is ProSci'sfounder and actually the
creator of the ProSci AgCarmodel it was his first
(06:35):
publication to fully disclose,unpack, describe, apply all of
the different ways that he wasbringing the AgCar model to life
.
And, of course, almost 20 yearshas passed since he wrote that
first book.
And what has happened since Jeffpublished the ADKAR book in
2006 is, of course, we want tocontinue to amplify the promise
(07:00):
of ADKAR, the promise of havingan individual model that allows
people to make sense of changeand to find their way through
change at the individual level.
There's also, you know, theproof of ADKAR.
There's been almost 20 years ofdemonstrated benefit in
(07:22):
organizations around the world.
So when I was preparing thebook, I wanted certainly to
introduce ProSci's new researchas a research organization.
There's lots of new validationsor extensions of ADCAR from a
research perspective, but thepromise is all about the
outcomes and what people arerealizing as a result inside of
(07:42):
the proof and the evidence.
So, from promise to proof and Icollected stories in the book.
So I reached out to ProScicustomers and clients around the
world.
There's over 50 AgCar stories,20 countries, six continents,
just about everywhere around theworld, lots of different
industries to have people sharetheir outcomes of applying AgCar
(08:03):
, both individually andorganizationally, personally and
professionally.
So the proof and the examplesand the success stories are
critical.
And then, of course, thepractice.
We wanted to take moreextension around how change
practitioners leveragerecommendations and guidance to
(08:24):
help lead and guideorganizations through those
individual change journeys.
So I'd say what's new, better,different in the update is more
around the promise, the proofand the practice.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
That's a huge undertaking for you to go around
and ask for stories andvalidations and you would have
heard the good stories.
What would be some of themisconceptions that you've come
across?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
you know, when you talk about ADKAR to
practitioners andnon-practitioners, yeah, that's
a great question and I think youknow one of the things that's a
clarifying point that wecontinue to talk about.
I hear lots of people say theADKAR methodology.
We follow the ADKAR methodology.
Well, actually, adkar is amodel and, just for your
(09:12):
listeners who may not befamiliar, it is an acronym and
it stands for awareness, desire,knowledge, ability and
reinforcement.
And when Jeff was originallyimagining this, what he was
doing, it was interesting.
He was studying the changepatterns inside of organizations
in the late 1990s and he wasfascinated by the question of
(09:35):
why do some changes succeed andother changes fail.
So he started researching he'san engineer, so the question was
really challenging to him.
So he looked at change patternsacross oh gosh, 700
organizations over four yearsand started coming to, you know,
the pattern spotting Anytimeyou look at a significant amount
(09:56):
of data and information, andwhat he discovered is that the
secret to successful change isin how we support every single
person who's impacted by change,going through their own change
journey, and that's what ADKARrepresents is the individual
model for change.
And then, as a methodology, itsits inside of the pro-sign
(10:19):
methodology, which is a threephase process that goes into
greater detail about engagementand preparing an approach and
looking at the risk of a changefrom a people perspective,
articulating you know how toengage senior leaders and people
managers and to docommunications and training, and
then assessing whether or notthe change is successful and
(10:39):
adapting as you go along the way.
So ADKAR one of themisconceptions is ADKAR is a
methodology and that's all thereis, but it's actually the model
.
It's a model that describes theindividual change process and
it helps us make sense of changeand it helps us know if the
things that we're doing areworking.
(10:59):
Know if the things that we'redoing are working.
So it informs what to do, whoshould be doing it, what we
should say, how we should engage, and then we can measure our
accomplishment through an ADKARjourney and determine if it's
working.
So again, I continue to thewords sense making right.
Adkar helps us make sense ofchange at the individual level
(11:22):
and its way finding, so we canscan and act Right.
We can scan and say, oh gosh,everybody's really not able to
articulate very clearly why aparticular change is needed.
We need to go back and makesure our communications are from
the right senders with theright messages, hitting people
at the right times with theright information to help them
(11:42):
go through awareness at the verybeginning of the model.
So that's one of themisconceptions.
So the other thing is it's youknow, it's all we need.
Adcar is the helper model, Ithink of it.
So if you're going on a hikeright, and we're doing a big
hike, you might need a compassright to keep you on path.
So ADCAR is like a compass.
(12:02):
But if you're doing a big,complex hike, it'd probably be
useful to also have a trailguide and a map.
Right, maybe you need atopography that tells you what
the elevations are across thehike.
So ADCAR keeps us continuouslypointed in the right direction.
But we incorporate lots ofother elements in the process of
(12:25):
change management to make surewe're getting to the destination
of our hike, which is the endwhere successful change is found
.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
I want to ask you a question around what is the
adverse effect of people callingit a methodology rather than a
model?
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, I think they lose some of the nuance of its
context.
Right, in a simple change, justarticulating an ad card journey
can be quite useful todetermine awareness.
We just communicate.
Why why now?
What if we don't?
We just communicate.
Why why now?
What if we don't?
Desire is about the personalchoice that every person makes
to come alongside a change,right to of leaders, engagement
(13:08):
of key influencers,communication, training,
(13:31):
integration with change agentnetworks, all of the different
levers that we might pull insideof a change strategy or set of
change management plans.
That ADKAR is our compass tokeep us on track.
So I think it's just, you know,adkar works.
You know, in an individualchange, working with a personal
scenario.
Right, adkar is quite powerful,but I think it's just the
intensity of taking it into thediscipline of change management
(13:55):
and how much more we are able tofocus our time and attention on
the right things at the righttime to deliver the outcomes
that we're trying to achieve.
So it's just the difference ofa compass that keeps us on point
and right in direction versusall of the other supporting
resources that might surroundADKAR to accomplish a particular
change and deliver outcomes toan individual or an organization
(14:18):
.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
And from the number of interviews and interactions
that you've had with the clientsover the years.
I want to ask you two questions.
One is that where have you seenADCA being applied and you
thought this is really acreative way of applying ADCA?
And the second question, Isuppose, is where would most
(14:42):
organizations struggle, you know, is it in the awareness?
Is it from the knowledge toability that transfer?
The microphone is yours.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah.
So to your first question,right, some really creative
examples of ADKAR application.
As I said, you know, Icollected, you know, over 50
stories coming into the creationof the book and I was going
through and reading them and itwas quite fascinating how people
had done, you know, indifferent countries with
cultural adaptations.
There was one, an organizationin Japan that you know again,
(15:17):
culturally things are differentfor businesses inside of Japan
versus some other countries.
So the way that they developeda grassroots effort around a
particular set of changes and itwas employee driven they felt
like they weren't able toconnect all the dots, if you
will, between lots of differentchanges that were going on.
(15:39):
So they started, you know,crowdsourcing information from
lots of different sources sothat it became people impacted
by change, helping other peopleimpacted by change versus a top
down approach.
So it was very interesting.
It was all around, you know,awareness of why, why?
Now, what if we don't?
Most of them were fully engagedin trying to support the
(16:01):
changes and then getting theknowledge and ability tasks.
There's another organizationthat decided not to introduce
the language of ADKAR.
They didn't want to create thecommon language that's so
frequently adopted acrossorganizations, because they just
didn't want to have to go andtalk to every person in the
(16:22):
organization, leveraging ADKARas the language, but yet they
took the steps of ADKAR withoutdescribing it.
So, for example, they talkedabout a workshop that they
delivered for lots of people whowere impacted by a significant
change, and they had everybody'smark on a poster.
(16:42):
You know, oh, I'm fully, I'mfully aware of why this change
is happening, or I have chosento participate and to come
alongside this change.
I know how to do what I'm beingasked to do.
And people were just markingeach of those and little did
they know they were actuallydoing an ad car assessment so
that the people who wereimplementing that change could
(17:02):
step back and go.
Oh my gosh, an awful lot ofpeople are not understanding why
they were doing this andhaven't chosen participate.
We've got awareness and desirebarriers.
So then they went back andfocused on, you know, filling
the gaps and making sure theywere delivering the information
that was needed to helpeverybody through those two
critical aspects.
Because it's a sequential model, you know, if you don't have
(17:23):
awareness and desire, you knowit's.
It's not email on Monday fortraining on Tuesday, for go live
on Wednesday, where you givepeople a chance to to understand
the change, come alongside itand then develop their knowledge
and ability to reinforce it.
There's an organization that'sin there.
It's a pharma, you know, aglobal pharmaceuticals
organization with 50,000 peopleimpacted by they said gosh
(17:47):
almost 1500 digital migrationsinto a completely new technical
platform and they completelyarchitected that change effort
through the lens of ADCAR.
They described every impactedgroup's change journey and
activated all of the steps andactions around ADKAR journeys.
(18:09):
So, you know, quite large andcomplex, all the way down to
individual change.
There's a story in the book ofa gentleman by the name of
Graham who taught himself toswim in his 30s.
His wife challenged him thatthat was a life skill she wanted
him to have as they werestepping into parenthood, and so
he tells a funny story aboutgoing through his own learning
(18:30):
journey of learning how to swimwith awareness and desire.
And so much of it was theknowledge to ability going, you
know, being you know, knowingwhat you're supposed to do to
swim but being able to swim aretwo different things.
And then, of course,reinforcement having that skill
and keeping up that skill.
So lots of different stories,lots of different examples.
(18:51):
I think the common pattern inall of this is that ADKAR allows
us to make change, which can bequite complex complex at the
organizational level and itmakes it personal and individual
, and that's why so many changepractitioners work with the
ADKAR models.
It's simple to describe it.
(19:11):
It resonates with peoplebecause it captures the essence
of what truly is the process ofchange.
It's also very actionable andit builds a lot of confidence.
You know your question aboutwhere do people get stuck Most
of the time.
Well, lots of the times thatI'm doing ADKAR journeys for
personal change, we teach ADKARthrough applying it to a
(19:35):
personal change a friend, afamily member, a neighbor, a
colleague, someone in our closecircle who's struggling with a
change, and oftentimes, when youput it in the context of a
personal change, people comeback with desire as the hardest
step right.
The choice that we all make toparticipate and engage in a
(19:55):
change and that's because youknow what needs to, needs to be
clear is what are, you know, howdoes this resonate with me?
My personal motivators, what'sin it for me?
What is the reason that I wantto choose to participate in this
change?
Inside of organizations A lotof times, the barrier or the
place where people get stuck orwe encounter a lot of resistance
(20:15):
, is right at awareness, becauseorganizations aren't
necessarily great atarticulating why for a change?
Not that a change is happening.
Right, we're going to implementa new ERP system.
Right, why are we implementingthis system?
You know what are theorganizational benefits, what
are the project objectives?
Why should I want to comealongside this change in support
(20:38):
of the health of theorganization?
So desire often shows up inpersonal changes as the barrier,
but a lot of times it'sawareness right at the front end
of the AgCar model and once weunlock that, you know, it's very
clear what the steps are andwhat people need and how you can
support them through theirAgCar journeys and the tailored
interventions that come out ofit.
If I've got a particularemployee, for example, who just
(21:01):
isn't really it isn't connectingand they're not coming
alongside the change, you can goin with very specific coaching
conversations and find thoseinterventions to help them
through their ADKAR journey.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
And these interventions are very critical
because ADKAR is not a linearprocess.
So sometimes you create anawareness and you think you've
informed everyone.
And then you do some pulsecheck, sense making, and then
you discover that you probablyneed to go back to the awareness
(21:32):
and create that Becauseorganizations change, especially
when you're driven by lots ofcomplex things happening within
the organization.
My personal experience, karen,is that and I always think that
that is a good test of a goodchange management practitioner
(21:54):
is that jump from the knowledgeto ability.
Do I want, do I know what Ineed to do?
Yes, I know.
Do I know how to do it?
And unfortunately that isusually sacrificed because, um,
because a project is good attimeline, they've got a budget,
they've got a scope, you knowthat they need to finish.
So there's always this tensionbetween the challenge managers
(22:19):
trying to do to to spend moretime to you, time to bridge that
gap, and then you've got theproject managers saying we've
got only two weeks to do that.
And my counsel has always beenwe need to be fully aware
between what learning is andwhat training is, and then the
application of all of these, andthat's where the secret.
(22:41):
So I always think that most ofmy observations anyway, working
with other change managers, isthat we pretty much are okay
with the awareness and createwhat's in it for the people, but
unfortunately sometimes we movevery quickly away through that
(23:01):
particular period or those twostages of the model and because
we move very quickly and then wespend very minimum time in
reinforcement and then we leaveit and then, as you and I would
know, and that's the problemright.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
I mean, the change is actually real when it's
happening.
Right Up to that point I canonly imagine, right, I went to
training and I learned what I'msupposed to know, how to do, but
just because I know how doesn'tmean I'm able.
And that knowledge to abilitygap is one that we see
organizations push far tooquickly through and just as
(23:41):
you've said, right, well, whatabout the time to do that?
We've got new measurement,we've got new performance
criteria.
You know whether it's a mindsetor a process or a tool, or you
know there's, there's anadoption piece that happens
after the changes is instantiate, right, it's very real to me
what's what's happening.
And what I'd say is if you don'tdo that work right, if you
(24:02):
don't do the work of filling thegap from knowledge to ability
and that could be a very smallgap or it could be, you know,
quite large, depending on thenature of the change you're
going to pay for it somehow,right, you're going to have less
than complete adoption.
You're going to have peoplepushing back and demonstrating
resistance and and sometimeseven, you know, trying to
(24:24):
sabotage the change itselfbecause they're not able to do
what they're being asked to do.
So you'll pay for it some way,you know, through a rework or
relaunch or redo or retreat,where we retreat from the change
because there's so muchdemonstrated pushback, and and
then you just create more of ahistory of failed change back,
(24:45):
and then you just create more ofa history of failed change.
And that's one of the thingsthat makes me, you know, sad for
organizations when they don'tdo the right things and they
continue to create this historyof failed change which erodes
trust, and trust is really hardto regain once it's eroded.
So, yeah, to just sit down andfigure out what is the knowledge
to ability gap and how are wegoing to support people, and we
(25:07):
can be quite creative, you know,with coaching or peer
influences or time away fromdesk work to get into learning
mode.
What you said, you knoweducating somebody and then
understanding and learning aretwo different things.
Telling and applying are twodifferent things.
So it's an intentional step inthe process and one that we know
is critical to successfuloutcomes, because, you know, the
(25:28):
ROI of a change comes fromability, not from training.
Right?
It's once people are able towork in the new environment that
we actually get the benefits ofthe change that's being
introduced.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Where would you see?
Usually resistance heightens up.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, and that happens right.
We know from research that youknow, resistance peaks at a dot
at the time of go live, whateverthe go live event is, because
that's when everything feelsquite real.
But I'd also say we really, youknow, at ProSag we've been
doing a lot of reframing,especially with, you know, the
new extension of demonstratingADKAR in use and in practice and
(26:06):
the benefits and results is tothink about ADKAR as your tool
for change readiness.
That will eliminate asignificant amount of the
resistance that could occur orwould occur otherwise.
So instead of talking aboutchange resistance, it's so much
more positive to talk aboutchange readiness.
And the reason people getresistant to change is they
(26:28):
weren't made ready for thosechanges.
So readiness versus resistanceis a great conversion.
And then, once you seeresistance happening, you can
get to the root cause and say,well, it could be on the
technical side of the change.
You know the solution that'sbeing implemented may miss the
mark.
Right, the requirements weren'tdefined correctly, or the
solution that was developed, theprocess, the system, the role,
(26:51):
clarity that we intended justdidn't land, whatever it is.
So then you can just get tothat emergent resistance and so
much of what we could havesmoothed the process from the
current state to the futurestate occurs by intentionally
helping everyone through thosead card journeys.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Talking about the emerging resistance and it's
actually a very valid topic Iwant to ask you, maybe bordering
on a philosophical question Isit in our nature, Karen, to
resist change anyway, regardlessof what you do?
Is that part of who we are ashumans?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
You know resistance to change is something that you
know you can talk topsychologists, neuroscientists.
You can talk at the psychologyof change you know people talk
about.
You know fight and flight andthe things that feel very
threatening to us.
Right, and, and a threat couldjust be a threat to my knowledge
base.
It could be a threat to my ego.
It could be a threat to, um,you know where I see myself in
(27:56):
the future, because theorganization's going in a path
that I didn't plan for when Iwas mapping out what my journey
was going to look like.
So there's lots of places itcan derive from, and I and I,
and there's always going to besomething that's natural about
resistance.
You know it is one of those youknow as humans, right, at any
time we're being feel, feelingany sense of threat, right,
(28:17):
there's a fight or flightresponse to that.
But I think that we're alsoquite capable of putting the
logic around why resistancemight occur and figuring out how
to head it off before it does.
And I've been involved in manylarge scale change journeys
where you know the day that thechange is live, right, let's
(28:38):
just say it's a systems changeand we're turning on new tools
and going live with areplacement platform of
technology and all of a suddenyou're looking around waiting
for the resistance to come upand it just doesn't.
Because we engaged people in theprocess.
They had input into the designof the solution.
They gave us the opportunity toshare what they were most
(29:01):
concerned about early in theprocess and we went to root
cause and mitigation early inthe process.
And we went to root cause andmitigation early in the cycles
and we gave them the language toask for what they needed in the
change process.
And all of those things lendthemselves to an incredibly
smooth introduction of change.
(29:22):
And, of course, things aregoing to pop up and you're going
to have unanticipated resultsor responses or somebody has
been sitting in the sidelinewaiting for something to go
wrong and pouncing on it.
But that's where you engageyour leaders and you engage your
people managers and give themthe skills to coach people and
to help them.
You know, be the be theresistance managers at the front
(29:42):
line.
But you know, I'm not one tobelieve that, you know,
resistance can completely beeliminated, but it sure can be
mitigated and managed throughoutthe process.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
My personal belief is that, of course, they're going
to have to be suspicious aboutthe change.
That is normal.
That's natural, in fact, ifI've got complete apathy to
change, if I've got completeapathy to change, then I should
be worried, I would too right.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
If it's too quiet, then people aren't listening
right when they're respondingand they've been giving the
safety of speaking up andthere's a culture of listening
and understanding what theirconcerns are.
That is so culture building.
It is so resonating to peopleto feel like their voice matters
and to be part of the processand, after all, really that's
that's what we all want, right?
We want to be appreciated andto be part of the process and
(30:36):
know that our voice matters andthat I'm bringing something to
this conversation.
I see something that othersdon't and I love those
conversations.
To me, those are the placeswhere you find you find the
little, the little cracks thatif we can hit them now, right,
the end product is going to beso much better.
But if it's too quiet, to methat's that's a warning sign
(30:58):
that they're waiting or they'renot paying attention.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, yeah, talking about management and I think you
mentioned that in your responsehow important is it to educate
management on the ADKAR model?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's critical.
Putting you know, it's twodifferent things.
Right ADKAR introduces amindset that we can describe the
individual change process.
It's back to sense, making.
Right.
Adcar makes change, make sense,and it's so simple in its
elegance of clarity around eachof the milestones that ADCAR
(31:38):
describes.
Adcar is an outcome, it's not anactivity.
Awareness is an outcome, not anactivity.
Communication is the activity.
Awareness is the outcome.
Training, not an activity.
Communication is the activity.
Awareness is the outcome.
Training is an activity.
Knowledge is the outcome.
Coaching is an activity.
Ability and reinforcement arethe outcomes.
So, to put that into the, oh mygosh, I've seen some of the most
(32:00):
amazing coaching conversationsthrough the lens of ADCAR.
Do you know why this change ishappening?
Yes, I'm fully on board.
Have you chosen to participate?
Yes, I get it.
I understand the benefits tothe organization and what's in
it for me.
Do you have the knowledge thatyou need?
Yes, I do.
I feel comfortable.
What about ability?
And I go?
You know there's a problemthere.
Right, I was the subject matterexpert on the software we're
(32:21):
shutting down.
I'm really threatened by that.
How can we step me into thatrole in the new environment?
And the people manager now has aplace to have a really
purposeful conversation withvery specific interventions for
a particular person.
So it's mindset and tool setand it's one of those things
(32:43):
that just becomes intuitive,right.
I can look at a situation andimmediately assess the sponsors
not engaged or the peoplemanagers don't know how to
support their people and thepeople in the organization don't
want the change practitioner orthe project leaders to do that
work.
They want their own managers orsupervisors to come alongside
them.
You know it's like I walk inand they go who are you and why
(33:04):
are you here?
But I can sit down with thatpeople leader and say if you do
this conversation or you look atthe challenge through the lens
of ADCAR, look what's availableto you, right, you can see what
it is, you can look around andit can make sense.
You can engage with others inthe organization with the common
language and the commonunderstanding of that individual
change process.
(33:31):
And what I've heard in seniorleaders you know, middle line
managers, front line managers ishow how much confidence it
boosts and how efficient it isthat you don't get lost in the
tangential things around changebut you have very purposeful
conversations and you givepeople a chance to engage in a
way that they feel seen andheard, but also it's in the
intention of helping themthrough the process.
(33:51):
So it's quite useful and to me,you know, universally it should
be part of you know managementtraining programs to introduce
this.
I do sponsor briefings and I dopeople manager training and and
at car, you know, people justresonate so quickly and I get
emails all the time.
I did one last week for a bunchof a group of people leaders
(34:12):
and the response was ADCAR is soempowering for me and my
leadership role.
So I think it should beuniversal.
It teaches us to see thingsdifferently and to respond
differently.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
And that's.
I think you mentioned the ideathat a challenge manager becomes
the coach for the manager ofthe team, because we need them
to be on board.
They will be the one sharingthe messages, not us.
Yes, and I want to shift gearand I want to ask you about and,
by the way, I just want to forclarification that ADCA applies
(34:48):
in an agile methodology and thenormal, you know, waterfall
methodology whatever that isactually applies.
It applies as an individual, ata team level, at an
organizational level.
I'm testing my knowledge here,karen, but I want to share with
you something that I've beenexperimenting with and please
(35:09):
give me critique my work.
I've been using generative AInowadays to help me co-pilot in
Microsoft, to actually help mewith my planning, with looking
at what areas perhaps I need to,you know, analyze more and pay
attention to more.
Is that a conversation that youstarted to hear nowadays about?
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Absolutely, and you know precise early development.
Already we have an enginecalled Kaya that leverages our
over 25 years of research inthis space and you know, the
amazing thing is it, it does.
It's like the first draft.
So if I'm going to be doing abriefing with a sponsor, you
know I've got a client next week.
(35:55):
I'm going to be working withthat.
I've been told the clientsponsor, the senior leader, sees
the value of change management,but they just don't really
understand their role in changemanagement.
What is it that I need to do?
So I can, you know, look at,you know the research and go to
Kaya or the generative AI toolsand say what are the key points,
what are the three things Ishould tell a senior leader
(36:16):
about the importance of theirrole, of being an effective
sponsor of change?
And immediately it's researchbased.
I get you know three answersquickly and then I can look at
it and say, ok, now, in thiscontext, do those make sense?
So I feel like the fast firstright, the fast first draft.
You know, build me a two hourworkshop for people leaders and
what should be on the agenda.
Boom, boom, boom.
You know, you have a two hourworkshop for people leaders and
(36:37):
what should be on the agenda.
Boom, boom, boom.
You know you have to introducethat car.
You need to talk about theirrole, you know.
You know all the things that weknow from our research and our
and our practice.
So I feel like it's you know,it's like an intern sitting
there next to me I can say hey,you know, run me a quick first
draft and then I can use myknowledge and intuition and my
context.
(36:58):
Right, we have to take it intothe context of an organization.
So what is the culture of theorganization?
What is the history of thatparticular senior leader?
What is the style of peopleengagement inside of an
organization?
Are there key influencers I canreach out to?
I mean, those are where myknowledge and intuition kick in.
But absolutely I can get a fastfirst draft of you know, steps
(37:22):
and actions.
That's research informed.
That helps me.
You know, focus on theintuition side versus on the
building side.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Thoroughly love the idea of a fast first.
I'll use that actually today,karen, so thank you for that.
You're welcome.
Of a fast first.
I'll use that actually today,karen, so thank you for that.
Actually, actually, sometimesgenerative AI can give you the
fast second as well, so ifyou're paying with it, the
second right answer.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Right, because once you get to that place of
intuition and you can say tellme more here.
Right, I want to push into thisnuance or this pattern, but
it's telling me what it knowsfrom the body that it's been
given.
So sometimes the collection ofwhat it's reacting to isn't
everything that it needs Because, again, there's so many
(38:12):
disciplines that come into play,there's so many adjacencies to
change work in other disciplines, that again, that's where you
could sit down with a team ofpeople and say here's our fast
first or our even better second,and then you put your intuition
and your knowledge against itand you end up with a really
good outcome from that process.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
My application recently was when I had a first
meeting with a project group andI was able to obviously
summarize the meeting usinggenerative AI and I questioned,
based on all the transcription,I've asked Co-Pilot, which is a
(38:54):
Microsoft application based onthe ADCA model, to really
highlight where the issue is,and it's actually giving me good
rationale around.
Awareness is probably okay, butsomebody mentioned this and Ali
mentioned this, and, based onall of those nuances, I've got a
(39:15):
case to think.
Well, perhaps I need to focuson what's in it for them, and
this is what's going to comeback in my communication Again,
when I emphasize the point thatyou mentioned.
The context is important andthat's where we come, as a human
, in the loop when it comes togenerative AI.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Absolutely, because the culture is the culture of an
organization.
You know, I've worked in so manydifferent organizations over
the years and sometimes theculture is quite hierarchical
and other times that is muchmore collaborative.
And if I'm in a hierarchical,top down driven scenario, I'm
going to recommend differenttactics than if it's in a very,
(39:56):
you know, collaborative.
Then if it's in a very, youknow collaborative and you know
a tactic in a collaborativeenvironment is to get people
together and, you know, do theproblem solving and the pattern
spotting as a team versus tryingto help a leader of an
organization, do that cascadeRight and top down.
We have to be an effectivecascade, you know scenario Right
.
We have to have the tactics tocascade the message versus, you
(40:16):
know, delivering the co-createdsolutions.
So context is critical and Ithink the AI tools are going to
be amazing aids to us in theprocess to free up that research
time, thinking time and put itinto the more you know intuition
, application and what we do,you know, day to day to fit
(40:39):
inside of the context that we'reworking in.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
I love this.
Thank you, I am aware of time.
There is a question that I wantto ask you.
What would be your advice to me?
I've been in the business ofchange for quite a while.
What would be your advice forpeople like me to rethink and
maybe revise the way we look atADKAR from where you sit?
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Yeah, I mean.
What I know to be true and thisis, you know, bears out in
research and in application isthe five elements of ADKAR have
not changed since Jeff Hyattimagined the model and
articulated it in the 1990s, andthe reason is it is the
description of that individualchange process.
It is the process that everysingle one of us goes through to
(41:24):
adopt and sustain a change.
So the model itself hasn'tchanged.
What has changed is all of thedifferent ways that we
contextualize ADKAR.
So, whether it's projectmilestones you mentioned
waterfall versus agile where youcan have knowledge and ability
outcomes at each release orsprint you can embed ad car from
(41:45):
you know, a milestone projectplanning perspective.
You can also use it as adiagnostic framework to go back
and examine what went wrong andwhat can we do better the next
time.
So I think it's more in theapplications of adAR and going
way beyond right.
If it's an onion, you're justpeeling back all of the layers
(42:05):
and you know, even to the pointwhere we think of ADKAR, as you
know, the building of changecapability and to build change
capability through the lens ofADKAR, because we have a current
state, we have a future state,we have people who are impacted.
We have the journeys.
So I would say you know it'sjust continue to push into the
(42:26):
applications and you know itcontinues to be true, it
continues to grow in relevanceand use because it does
represent what happens inreality and it makes it such an
actionable framework.
So I'd say, you know, whenyou're ready and people are
ready to go deeper than theindividual model, you know,
start looking at all theadvanced applications of Adcar.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
I love this.
I thoroughly enjoyed thisconversation, Karen.
How would people connect withyou?
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Yeah, the best way to contact with me, you know.
Connect with me, you can, youknow, for information on ProSci,
of course, reach out to youknow, proscicom.
I'm available to be connectedin LinkedIn.
That's my sweet spot for whereI spend my time and spend most
of my professional connections.
So it's KarenBall26 at LinkedInand I'd love for people to
reach out and ask these deepdive questions.
(43:14):
The more we think about thistogether, the better outcomes
we're all going to achieve.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I love that, and you mentioned the word outcome so
many times, so congratulations.
You got your message loud andclear during the podcast.
I hope I can get you back,karen, in the future at some
stage and talk more about theadvancement of the model and the
applications in particular andthe stories.
(43:41):
But until next time, stay welland stay safe, karen, and thank
you so much for your time.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Thanks, ali, great spending time with you.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for joining me on theInner Game of change.
I hope today's conversationoffered you something to reflect
on, something to challenge orsomething to carry forward in
your journey of change andgrowth.
As always, I'm grateful foryour time, your curiosity and
(44:11):
your willingness to explore theinner game that shapes the outer
impact.
I will leave you with thisthought Change is hard at first,
messy in the middle andgorgeous at the end.
That's what Robin Sharma said.
Until next time, take care andkeep leading with courage and
curiosity.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
The focus is on the simplification of the language.
Right.
The way to get something out tomore people is it needs to make
sense.
Right.
And then it needs to be useful.
Right, usable and useful.
And that's what we know to betrue.
Ad car is incredibly usable anduseful and you know we're
better off with it than we wouldbe without.
Host
Ali Juma
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.