April 5, 2025 • 57 mins
Welcome to The Inner Game of Change, the podcast that explores the evolving landscape of change management, leadership, and transformation.
Today, I am chatting with Ian Heard Director of Public Sector Modern Work at Microsoft ANZ — a leader who is right at the heart of how AI is reshaping the way we work.
In this episode, we talk about the real story behind GenAI Copilot, what change looks like inside Microsoft, and why the role of a change manager might just be turning into a “Chief Excitement Officer.” From navigating resistance (yes, even inside Microsoft) to embracing agentic workflows, this episode offers a grounded look at how leadership and curiosity go hand in hand in today’s fast-moving world.
We also dig into what makes AI adoption truly work — the mindset, the momentum, and the magic that happens when teams stop asking if it works and start exploring how it can help. This one’s real, practical, and full of good humour, forward-looking ideas, and insights for anyone navigating what’s next.
I am grateful to have Ian chatting with me today.
About
As Director for Microsoft's Public Sector Modern Works business in ANZ I lead an all-star team, helping our customers across Government, Health and Education to re-imagine productivity through Cloud and AI solutions such as Microsoft 365 Copilot, Microsoft 365 and Windows 365. This role builds on a career at Microsoft where I have been fortunate to be part of major market transitions in Enterprise Productivity solutions across ANZ and Asia with solutions such as Microsoft Team, Windows 365, Microsoft 365 and the development of Microsoft Security.
As a leader I am passionate about fostering a culture of continuous learning and innovation. I prioritize empowering my team to stay ahead of industry trends, whilst being customer obsessed and centre my approach on challenging them to both exceed their potential and their customer's expectations.
Prior to Microsoft, I cultivated a career with diverse experiences as a leader in multiple geographies and role types in organisations from start-ups and scale-ups through to multi-nationals.
Complementing my corporate career, I have a passion for social impact and seek to be active in the NFP space, as seen as my tenure leading Microsoft's ANZ Give initiative and tenure at Ovarian Cancer Australia as a Board Observer.
I am always eager to connect with like-minded professionals and explore opportunities for collaboration and growth. Let's connect and discuss how we can drive innovation and success together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ian (00:00):
Generative AI isn't about how to get people to do more
work.
It's how do we elevate humansto do better work, more
impactful work.
But the big kicker and to yourpoint around change management,
ali was big difference betweenthose who were able to turn that
one hour a day into productivetime, ie do something more
(00:22):
valuable or turn it into realproductivity savings was the
number three.
And three was the number oftraining sessions they attended,
and so the moment they hadthose three training sessions,
they were able to recognizethose productivity gains, which
I thought was fascinating at thetime.
Ali (00:47):
Welcome to the Inner Game of Change, the podcast that
explores the evolving landscapeof change management, leadership
and transformation.
I am your host, ali Juma.
Today I'm chatting with IanHurd, director of Public Sector
Modern Work at Microsoft ANZ, aleader who's right at the heart
(01:08):
of how AI is reshaping the waywe work.
In this episode, we talk aboutthe real story behind Generative
AI Co-Pilot, what change looksinside Microsoft and why the
role of a change manager mightjust be turning into a chief
excitement officer, fromnavigating resistance yes, even
(01:28):
inside Microsoft to embracing agenetic workflows.
This episode offers a groundedlook at how leadership and
curiosity go hand in hand intoday's fast-moving world.
We also dig into what makes AIadoption truly work the mindset,
the momentum and the magic thathappens when teams stop asking
(01:50):
if it works and start exploringhow it can help.
This one is real, practical,with a good humor,
forward-looking ideas andinsights for anyone navigating
what's next?
I am grateful to have Ianchatting with me today.
Well, ian, thank you so muchfor joining me in the In a Game
(02:13):
of Change podcast.
I am eternally grateful foryour time.
Ian (02:17):
Thanks, ali, looking forward to this.
Ali (02:19):
Thank you so much, ian.
Based on your role and what youdo, we're going to talk a lot
about technology and AI, so Ihope we're going to inject some
human aspect of it, and I'm surethere's going to be some funny
stories in there.
Before we start, it would befantastic to introduce yourself
to my audience.
Ian (02:39):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Hi everyone.
My name is Ian Hurd.
So, hi everyone, my name is IanHurd.
I'm in a very fortunateposition to lead the Australian
New Zealand public sectorbusiness for Microsoft.
Pertaining to all things modernwork across our Microsoft 365
(03:01):
stack and also ourvirtualization stack with
solutions like Windows 365,actual virtual desktop and then,
coupled with that, also ourfantastic devices on the surface
.
Ali (03:15):
When you say modern workplace and new ways of
working, do?
Ian (03:23):
you want to educate me on that, ian?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely,absolutely, I think, for me, the
modern work we moved frommodern workplace to modern work
and I think we made that callaround COVID time, when
obviously the lines between theworkplace and work had blurred
(03:44):
hugely and so for us, modernwork and others have called it
the digital workplace and newways of work are just really how
day-to-day traditional workactivities can be infused with
digital technology and to make,hopefully, employees more
productive but also enable themto progress their careers, look
(04:04):
after areas like well-being andalso address, I think, the thing
that probably all, at somestage in our lives, have
addressed, had to address, whichis the work-life balance or, as
I've recently heard, it called,work-life harmony, because I
think the opportunity forbalance is long gone.
It's more now how we canharmonize the interaction
between work and home.
If a balance is long gone, it'smore now how we can harmonize
the interaction between work andhome.
Ali (04:25):
That's a nice way of actually describing it.
It's the harmony between thetwo states.
I must admit I don't have aharmony.
The lines are blurred betweenbecause work for me is actually
a bit of a fun as well.
Part of my fun, absolutely.
Ian (04:45):
It's got to be right, it's got to be.
And I think the harmony pointis just so crucial.
You know we're living in a24-hour world now.
You know it's not like.
I remember back in I guess itwas probably about 2000,.
You can probably keep me honesthere I had the do you remember
the Palm Trios, and then afterthat the BlackBerry.
(05:08):
Back in I guess it would havebeen 2006, 2007.
And that was the moment for methat you stopped finishing your
day at 5.30, 6 o'clock orwhatever that time was, and you
started to live that 24-hourlife.
So I think it's been a realjourney for the workplace over
(05:29):
the past 15 years or so 20 yearsor so is trying to find what is
that right balance, what isthat right harmony.
And as you said, ali, you'vehit part of that harmony, which
is you're doing, what you'reinterested in, which is just
crucial.
Ali (05:43):
I love that let's dive into .
So you work for Microsoft, andI mean what I love about what
you do, what you guys do atMicrosoft.
Change and advancement is atthe heart of everything you do.
I'm going to share with yousomething funny.
I always think that there's agroup of people in a very dark
room somewhere in Microsoft andthey're thinking of all of these
(06:05):
user ideas, you know, and whatthe users need to have.
And am I true?
Ian (06:12):
You probably are.
I don't see that, but I wouldhope we're doing it, not just
thinking of what we think peopleare going to use, but actually
we actually start off withunderstanding how people live
today and build from there.
You know, I think, as always,look, you'll know this, ali.
You know there's, there's thatyou've always got to have a
really good balance.
By you know to use the HenryFord analogy by you know,
(06:34):
sometimes you've got to build afaster horse, right but.
But sometimes you've got tochange the game completely.
And you know, certainly I thinkthat's what we strive to do and
I think that's you'll tell meyou're far better qualified in
the world of change than I am,but I think that's a crucial
part of change.
Sometimes you've got tocompletely change the game and
(06:55):
sometimes you need to just dowhat you're doing now better.
Ali (06:59):
And now Microsoft, over the last couple of years, moved
into changing the game andfocusing on artificial
intelligence.
Talk to me what happens andwhat are some of the
conversations that probablyhappened about a couple of years
ago at Microsoft, and then youstarted thinking this is going
(07:24):
to be a huge change andcertainly we're going to change
the game.
Ian (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, look, I'm sure there are many conversations
that I'm not aware of or notprivy to, but certainly what I
can see, I think it'sunbelievable that we're what 14
months ago Sorry, 14 months, twoyears and two months ago, so 26
months ago GPT had launchedinto the market and I think that
(07:53):
the rates have changed.
That we've seen in that spacesince that stage has been just
incredible market disruption.
We're hearing of something newliterally every week, aren't we?
In terms of how artificialintelligence is affecting the
home, affecting work and, Ithink, more importantly, the
(08:19):
promise that it's got to reallytransform everything we do going
forward.
So, certainly from Microsoft'sperspective, we've obviously
been on a huge change initiativeourselves.
You know, I remember Copilot.
I think the first out of theblocks that we had was GitHub
Copilot, which reallyrevolutionizes the overall
productivity of the developer,and we're now seeing, you know,
(08:41):
thousands and millions of linesof code being developed by
GitHub Copilot and reallyextreme productivity gains there
.
Then, literally, I remembersitting there in I think it was
March March 2023, I guess whenCopilot was announced and, trust
(09:05):
me, we found out the same dayas you did and we were like, wow
, this really changes the game.
You know, the ability toconnect all of those amazing
demonstrations we've seen withChatGPT, but now be able to
ground it securely in your workenvironment to really be able to
provide that highly qualifiedintern to work alongside you.
(09:29):
And then the other interestingpart for me, then, is okay, that
really enables humans to dowhat they're doing today better
and more productive.
And you know, if you don't mind,ali, I'll just zoom out a
little bit outside of Microsoft.
I think one of the things thatwe need to embrace here is the
(09:52):
macro position for us and themacro opportunity and the macro
position that we have, certainlyin the developed world right
now, which is that areas likeunemployment are at an all-time
low Productivity.
In most Western economies,productivity per capita is
(10:13):
pretty flat right, given thecertainly, since, if you wrap up
mobile, cloud and now AI allinto one trend and call it the
digital industrial revolution,it hasn't really fulfilled that
productivity game promise thatwe saw, maybe, in the steam
revolution or the electricityrevolution.
(10:33):
Yet is what I would say Not yetyes.
Yeah.
And then you look at, you knowpopulation growth, and
population growth is flat todeclining, right, populations
are getting older.
Here in Australia, if I look atacross Australia and New
Zealand, you know our workingage population will decline by
(10:53):
on the current path, decline by5% to 10% over the next 30 years
.
And the number because of, youknow, the great advances in
healthcare that we allexperienced we're going to have
5% to 10% more people in.
You know, if you like,retirement age, yeah, so we're
going to have 5% to 10% morepeople in.
You know, if you likeretirement age.
So we're going to have 5% to10% less people supporting 5% to
10% people more and peoplehaving less children, et cetera,
(11:14):
et cetera.
So we're left with this deeprequirement now to really
accelerate human productivityand human ingenuity.
It's a must, not a nice to have, you know you could argue
things like the steam revolution.
Human productivity and humaningenuity, it's a must, not a
nice to have.
You know you could argue thingslike steam revolution, that was
a nice to have that acceleratedhuman productivity.
This is a must, and so I thinkfor me, artificial intelligence
just couldn't come at a bettertime.
(11:34):
It's, you know, yes, there areareas of change that we need to
get through.
There are considerations wehave to work through with our
customers, with our partners andwithin our own technology
groups, but we're in anextremely exciting time.
I think, and just very, veryblessed that I'm in an
organization that's at theforefront of that.
Ali (11:55):
I'm always keen to understand organizations like
Microsoft and I can only makesome assumptions.
They play two roles and I canonly make some assumptions.
They play in two roles.
Well, first of all, change.
They actually make the change,they're the change makers to
their clients, to the outsideworld.
But then to introduce thechange to the outside world,
that change would need to happeninternally to their employees.
(12:18):
Yes, yeah, talk to me about any.
You know somebody working at anorganization like Microsoft.
Does that mean that thetraditional way we look at
managing change?
Okay, well, let me put it in asimple format Does that mean
that there is no change?
Resistance from people insideMicrosoft when it comes to
changes?
Because that's the core of whatyou do.
Ian (12:44):
Yeah, look, we're humans.
Yes, this is what I'm alwayscurious.
Is that does the human, doesthe environment and the role
change the human.
Yeah, look, find me a human whosays that they always love
change and I'll find you a liarright.
But without a doubt, look, Ithink we are in a constant state
(13:05):
of change, ali, and I think,for Microsoft, you know we've
worked really hard, especiallysince Satya's come in.
Look, a lot's been written.
I don't know if you've readSatya's book or anything like
this about a hidden restart or ahidden refresh, hidden restart
or hidden refresh but you know,one of the big cultural resets
(13:31):
Satya put into our business wasthis idea of growth mindset and
this theory of constant learning, constant change and constant
growth, and it's something thatwe've really driven hard since
Satya came in.
I think Satya came in 2014, Ibelieve 2013, 2014.
And it's something that we'vereally instilled.
(13:54):
You know, to our own admission,you know, the previous 10 years
or so, we've missed big waveslike mobile, you know when.
Really, that was a market thatwe could and maybe should have
capitalized on, and we knew thatin certain places, like cloud,
we were maybe a little bitbehind at the time.
You know, guys like Google andAWS had blazed a trail there,
(14:17):
and others at the time, and wealso needed to be more
responsive to new market trends.
So first and foremost is ourculture and our culture around
growth mindset was fundamental.
And coupled into that then wasthat needs to be more than just
a sign up in the office.
You know, it needs to besomething that we drive through.
So we changed a lot around howwe measure success in our
(14:40):
organization and we usebasically three differentiation
spheres when we look at impactin our organization.
So it's not just good enoughthat you contribute individually
, because if you contributeindividually, that gives you
that kind of self-servingapproach where it's okay to do
whatever you want as long as youhit your target, and in an
(15:05):
organization of 250,000 peoplethat isn't conducive to a
productive environment.
So the next part that we addedand I think probably the most
crucial areas is the next is howdo you contribute to the
success of others?
So how do you help those aroundyou to be better and to develop
and to be more effective?
(15:25):
And the next one is how do youbuild on the work of others to
to drive?
So maybe give you an exampleyou know I lead a sales team, um
, and say I don't know, saywe're working with your
organization and then to me,nirvana is that your accounts
executive or sales specialists.
(15:47):
They research trends thatthey're seeing around, say
co-pilot utilization across theworld.
What are other universitiesdoing?
What are the learnings we'redoing?
What have their contemporariesdone in other parts of the world
or their peers locally here inAustralia and New Zealand done?
Okay, great.
Then we've taken that.
So that's building on the workof others.
We've then turned that intosomething that will add value to
(16:11):
your organization, to the truck, and that's great.
And then you know we get to agreat position and that
salesperson sells something toyou Fantastic.
But then, once they've donethat, the journey for me doesn't
stop there.
How are they going to pass onthose learnings to their peers?
Yeah, how are they going tocontribute to the success of
others?
And so through that approach,it's really helped us evolve our
(16:33):
culture, to change, to learning, to development and to sharing
and collaboration.
And it's a big part of ourinterview process.
It's a big part.
We don't just look at, you know, sales figures or how many
lines of code they can develop.
It's culture first, there,which I think is just absolutely
crucial.
And then the last part of thatis what I would say is and
(16:54):
probably the thing that probablyshocks people coming into
Microsoft more than anything iswith those foundations, how
self-serve the culture is.
You know we don't reallyprescribe or micromanage the
learning journey for our teammembers it's very much choose
your own adventure.
Yes, we have a vast library oflearning, but we also encourage
(17:14):
people to go out there and findtheir own learning as well, find
their own insights and share it.
So I think to the changemanagement piece.
A lot of that change managementis done amongst peers.
We've almost got a culture ofchange in that model.
Ali (17:28):
I love it.
This idea of an organization islike a team sport Everybody
contributes.
But I also love the idea thatby me learning and choosing my
own learning journey, I knowthat whatever I'm going to use
or choose will contribute to thesuccess and the win of
(17:49):
Microsoft as a team and to sharemy own experience with
Microsoft.
Anyway, as business partners, Ihaven't really seen anything
different, apart from whoever Italk to.
They're genuinely interested inmy success as a client.
And this is not a plugin, thisis not anything.
(18:09):
I've actually seen it and Iexperience it every time I get
in touch with microsoft uh,that's good to hear.
Ian (18:16):
That's what.
That's what we aim for, sothat's good to hear yes you, you
did talk about copilot.
Ali (18:22):
Um, I should call it properly mic 365 Core Pilot.
It's a biggie.
Ian (18:26):
That's right.
Ali (18:28):
And talk to me about the trials.
I think started with thegovernment agencies about a
couple of years ago and I thinkthey were the early adopters of
now.
Four or five months ago theyreleased a report on the
(18:49):
adoption of Copilot and one ofthe things that really sort of
fascinated me about that reportis that they were using because
Copilot has been upgraded almostevery day.
I have been living andbreathing Copilot since January
last year and I've seen the hugejump, especially around June or
(19:10):
July last year, and now I loveit.
But I'm thinking they haveexperienced co-pilot when it was
at the baby stages.
What's your take on that?
You know, because when werelease a report about an old
experience and the technologyhas already gone so far ahead,
(19:30):
how do you marry and how do youbalance those two things?
Ian (19:34):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's great that you're seeing and
experiencing the constantdevelopment of Microsoft 365
Copilot and I'm well done ongetting the naming right and
there's a lot of Copilots outthere for sure, so that's great.
Yet one of the things I listento quite a lot of podcasts.
(19:55):
So apologies if I'm using likea massively overused phrase or a
buzzword phrase, but I reallylove how federal government took
an approach of almost theystripped down this whole
question of artificialintelligence down to the first
principles.
Yes, and the first principle,really and, by the way, I'm
(20:16):
massively paraphrasing andputting words into people's
mouths with this, but I'll givemy summary of what happened
there was that the governmentand federal governments really
were very keen to make a firstleap into intergenerative AI
because they could see, you know, from a first principle you
know this, I don't know aboutyou, ali, I always work on the
(20:37):
basis of is this something thatis just going to happen,
regardless of, you know,legislation, government,
regardless of organizationalinterference, et cetera, et
cetera, et cetera.
Is this a trend that'sultimately going to happen?
You know, and certainly mobile,yes, was always going to happen
(20:58):
.
The moment the iPhone 1 waslaunched.
It was going to happen.
Right, you could see thebenefits, which is so clear.
Cloud it was definitely goingto happen, right, you can see
the benefits straight away interms of the speed of innovation
, the reduction in costs,increase in flexibility, et
cetera, and it coincided withnetwork backbone increasing
monumentally, so it was alwaysgoing to catch on.
(21:21):
It was a matter of when, and Ithink generative AI falls into
this bucket.
It's happening, it's going toit's happening.
It's going to happen evenfaster and it's going to be a
fundamental part of our life, inthe same way as internet mobile
cloud was.
So I think I think they lookedat it through that lens and this
is my assumption.
Yeah, and I think that wasawesome.
(21:42):
They then looked at Copilot wasa very small part of this.
This overall discussion, umwith federal government at the
time, because what they werelooking at was was fantastic,
which is okay.
Well, what does australia needto do to be competitive in this
space and to thrive in thisspace, not be a victim of change
?
Yeah, and so they.
You know we started discussionswith the government that
(22:05):
resulted in, uh, australia beingthe first country on the planet
where Microsoft had announcedan investment in be comfortable
that generative AI was a bigpart of this.
The next was federal governmentthen saying, ok, well, that's
(22:43):
great from an infrastructure andfoundational, but how do we put
our initial toe in the water?
You know what's the generativeAI?
Almost training wheels that wecan bring into our environment
to see the benefits.
Today, and this is where we wentwith at the time, the six-month
trial with Copilot andMicrosoft 365 Copilot.
To your point, around the trialand towards the increase and
(23:06):
the improvement of Microsoft 365Copilot.
The trial went from December2023 through to the 30th of June
2024.
And the report from the DigitalTransformation Agency, the D
dta, was written from there.
So a lot of the findings there,to your point, you know, as I
(23:29):
keep saying to my team and tocustomers you've probably heard
me say it before is you know,our product is only going to get
better and the users are onlygoing to get more proficient um
from here on in right um, and sofor even that first six months,
you know we were seeing of thereport an an average of an hour
a day productivity gain.
And then you dive into OK, wherewere they seeing it?
(23:50):
It was only, really, if you lookat the report, in Teams, in the
enterprise chat capability andthen Word, I think, were the top
three.
There, you know there wasrecognition that Excel was still
improving and you know recentlywe've improved with Python for
Excel.
They couldn't use largely theOutlook capability, which email
(24:12):
is a big productivity driver wasseen inside of Microsoft 365
Copilot, the ability to, youknow, summarize and prioritize
your inbox, and because that wasonly available in Outlook New
at the time, not Outlook Classic, which it is now, it's
available in Outlook New at thetime, not Outlook Classic, which
it is now it's available inOutlook Classic.
So to be able to get thoselevels of productivity gains
(24:32):
were just incredible.
But the big kicker and to yourpoint around change management,
ali, was big difference betweenthose who were able to turn that
one hour a day into productivetime, ie do something more
valuable or turn it into realproductivity savings, was the
(24:54):
number three.
And three was the number oftraining sessions they attended.
Yeah, and so the moment theyhad those three training
sessions they were able torecognize those productivity
gains, which I thought wasfascinating at the time.
Ali (25:08):
The reason why I'm asking about that is mainly from my own
experience.
I worked with quite a fewpeople on getting them on board
to use Microsoft 365, copilotand, let's just say, march last
year.
The people that I introduced toCopilot at the time and Copilot
was just getting up to speedwith the enhancements and
(25:33):
getting better, basically, whenI lost their confidence in the
system, it was hard for me toregain it later, and because
they saw one version of it andtherefore, with my change
management practice, I actuallychanged my narrative.
And so my narrative was thatstay a little bit longer with it
, and the longer you stay withthis, the better it will get,
(25:57):
the better.
You'll be familiar with that.
And then that did not work, andso I shifted my narrative into
a different thing.
Don't be disheartened if copoladoes not respond to you the way
you would like it to respondNot yet.
So I tried different ways togain that, because, like with
(26:19):
any new technology, there'salways doubt.
You know what is this and allof that, plus the noise in the
market, you know this is goingto replace people's jobs, and so
it was quite overwhelming.
But my story so far is that,and I'll give you, you know a
sentiment from somebody onMonday and they said that
(26:39):
there's absolutely no way I cando anything without CoPilot now.
And that's a huge mind shift.
And the same people that Italked to in March and April
last year.
It's the same people.
Now they're saying actually, weheard it's actually doing good
things.
So I was always fascinated abouthow the government has gone
(27:01):
about what I call the oldversion in my head anyway, the
old version of CorePilot and theupgraded version.
However, what Microsoft isdoing as well is doing change
management.
So what OpenAI has done,they've basically released it to
the masses and say use it.
That's actually changemanagement.
You experiment with it, youplay with it, and I loved what
(27:23):
you guys did as well.
You've added, for example,copilot and 2Edge as a version
in there at the start and peoplecan play with it, and I really
admire the level of support.
I think that is a deepunderstanding from Microsoft on
the power of focusing on howthis manage.
Sorry, this change needs to bemanaged within an organization.
(27:45):
The level of support andinterest that I got from
Microsoft was tremendous andthat gives me a very good idea
about how they think aboutchange management.
Ian (27:59):
Yeah, it is so critical In the, as a cloud organization, we
live and die by how muchutilization our products have,
but more importantly, I think,the impact that the solutions
have and with that, it would begreat to get your opinion as a
change manager.
This speed of innovation hereis so great, but also the
(28:24):
parameters of how it cantransform are so open.
You know it's.
I go back to the days where youknow I used to be.
You know, my primary line ofbusiness was voice PBXs.
Well, that had, you know, 60different functions and that's
what it did.
Right, you know 50, 60different functions.
You know 58 of them peopledidn't want to use.
They just want to be able topick up a phone and do voicemail
(28:45):
.
Right, that's realisticallywhat they wanted.
So you just train them on thatstuff, you know.
The reality is for me is youknow, there's no point writing a
manual for this thing becauseit's gonna.
It's gonna change and also thethe people doing the change
management you know, it's notyou don't just get up and train
people on this.
Right, you've got to getinteraction, you've got to get
(29:07):
peers talking to each other, achampion network.
And I'm just, firstly, let mejust recognize, you know it's
been awesome partnering withyourself, ali.
You know the creativity thatyou've brought in terms of
things like your championnetworks, in terms of how you've
been able to manage the changemanagement program there, has
just been phenomenal and it'sbeen great to see some of the
(29:28):
impact there.
And I think, though you know,from a Microsoft side, it's
really great that you knowyou're recognizing the.
You know the team are reallyinvested in this.
You know, outside of jobdescription, we're really
invested in this because we'restill learning with you.
You know this isn't the PBX with68 different functions.
Right, this is us learning whatit does every day with you.
(29:52):
And you know this is going togo even greater now as we expand
into the agentic world.
You know we're able to bringtogether now the core Microsoft
365 Copilot capability and thenexpanding it to your
applications and how yourapplications can work with each
other in an agentic world withMicrosoft 365 Copilot.
(30:14):
You know the opportunities hereand the use cases start to
become limitless.
So I think the agile manner isjust so crucial, and the link
between Microsoft, our customersand then the different user
base within our customers iswhat's going to drive change
here.
This constant sharing thecontribution towards each
(30:36):
other's success is going to bejust fundamental.
And certainly thoseorganizations with that kind of
culture, those who are going tothrive best, I think, in the AI
world.
Ali (30:44):
I want to shift gear, Ian, and then I want to ask you a
question around.
All that is well withtechnology.
I want to shift gear, Ian, andthen I want to ask you a
question around all is well withtechnology and the advancement,
what can you see from where yousit in terms of any cultural
shift in how organizations aregoing to behave going forward?
Ian (31:02):
It's a good question.
And look, I think the future,this is one of those where you
look back in two years andrealize that you've missed it by
an absolute mile because themarket's changing so fast.
Yes, the reality is, in thenext two years, the bulk I'd say
the vast majority of, certainlyinformation workers and I would
(31:22):
suggest the workforce ingeneral won't be going into
Outlook or Teams as their firstport of call, like they do today
.
When they come into the office,they'll be asking, hopefully,
their co-pilot, they'll beasking co-pilots, I think.
Then, culturally and you mayhave heard Satya's and if not,
(31:45):
I'll share with you the link,maybe you share with it in your
post Satya's recent podcastwhere he was talking about the
move of business logic out ofSaaS applications into the
agents going forward and theopportunities that that brought.
Yes, and so I look at that andthen go, okay, well, if that is
the evolution which personally Ithink he's absolutely spot on,
(32:06):
then what does that mean fororganizational cultures going
forward and the fluidity of anorganization?
You know so we've always beentraditionally siloed.
You know whether it's you knowfinance or you know the faculty
area in an education environment, sales, marketing, et cetera,
et cetera.
You know frontline services, etcetera, et cetera, et cetera,
(32:27):
you know, frontline services, etcetera.
This, the move from thoseapplications now to become, you
know, those applications now toin effect just become crud
databases, with the businessprocess now lying in the agents,
enables us to bring togetherthe culture of an organization
very closely, where we've gotreal visibility into each
(32:48):
other's lives and real, really amuch less siloed environment.
So I don't have a clear answeron what that will mean for
culture, but certainly, as Imentioned before, the big thing
for me for culture is that it'sthe skills and the culture
that's going to thrive, goingforward, which is just crucial.
You know, I think acollaborative culture, I think
(33:08):
one where we're open to learningoff each other, not, you know,
shooting guns at each other'ssilos, but actually learning off
each other.
You know, I'm not sure theanswer is moving to a completely
agile world, you know, butcertainly having some of those
agile principles underneath tobring together those tribes,
(33:29):
those scrums, to work togetheracross the organization, I think
would be crucial.
And then and then outside ofthat, you know, a culture of
sharing, where you know wereally start to learn what's
working in other areas and whatcan drive forward.
I think that what it also means,though, for me, for leadership
and the skills going forward, isa much greater focus and you'll
(33:51):
notice, ali, like if I, if Istrip down the people that I've
worked with who have gone on tohave the most impactful careers.
Yeah, what is the big thingthat they're great at Right?
They're great at clarity ofthought, clarity of
communication.
They're good at understandingdata sets and been able to
articulate that and expandaround that, and that's that,
(34:14):
that skill set there.
Not only will it not go away,but those people will rise to
the top in organizations very,very quickly.
You know, no longer in AI worldwill we value stewardship.
You know your ability tonavigate.
I'm the only guy who knows howto use this database right.
Ali (34:55):
Or the people of let's face it, a decent chunk of people,
especially big entrepreneurshipand spirit of ingenuity, I think
going forward.
I think definitely it's goingto impact bringing some silos
down.
I'm already seeing it.
The world of agents, though, isgoing to be interesting.
That was going to beinteresting.
I am anticipating that at somestage, there will be some
pushback from certaindepartments and there will be
lots of talk around access toinformation and all of that.
(35:17):
I've seen, I've heard and I'veseen that talk, maybe 12 months
ago, and then it dissipatedafter a while, because then
people actually startedrealizing the value of the new
technology and there aredifferent ways to protect the
information without missing outon the opportunity of the
(35:38):
technology, because the benefitsoutweigh those in there.
So I'm definitely seeing thathappening.
I had a conversation with one ofthe guests last year and then
she's a professor at Oxford andthen she talked about the
education experience in highschool, and I still remember
(35:59):
that and made me think abouteverything else, and she said
something around that studentsnowadays we give them an A or
excellent.
That students nowadays we givethem an A or excellent, but that
excellent before the internetworld was different, excellent
from after the internet worldand now that excellent will be
different after generative AI,so the standard will be raised
(36:22):
Then.
That gives me the feeling andthe idea and the thinking that
even in the workplace,performance measures will be
different because you've gotcapability now, but an amazing
capability at your fingertips,and so maybe in the next three
(36:42):
years performance expectationswill be different because we can
do we can be more creative, wecan probably do more Like.
I know that generative AI givesme the flexibility and the
capacity to service more clients, for example, and with the
quality at the same time.
(37:03):
So that's how I'm seeing it.
But whatever shift we're goingto see although it might be
disruptive a little bit, butit's going to be a good shift.
I think I am enjoying more golfput it that way nowadays than
then then before, mainly becauseI know on your right, I think
the sentiment that I start everyday checking in with co-pilot
(37:26):
rather than going to individualapplications.
That's already happening.
There's a change in theworkflow and how we're actually
managing these things From whereyou sit.
I just want to know, maybe aquestion around in general
businesses in Australia are theystill the majority still
(37:48):
thinking about whether this isgoing to stick or not?
Ian (37:55):
Are they thinking about whether it's going to stick?
I'm not sure about that.
I think we're, and this changesrapidly.
So what I'm just about to saynow, in January 2025, is going
to date massively if somebody'slistening to this in three
months' time, yeah, yes.
(38:16):
So just want to say that,because what's changed?
Certainly the last three months,I've seen a big change both in
private and public sectororganisations.
I think where we are right now,if I look, you've probably got,
you know, you've still gotquite a large base.
(38:37):
So if I look now at ourenterprise business, I can't
give exact percentages, but avery high percentage of our
customer base right now has somesort of deployment of Microsoft
365 Copilot in their workplace,some sort of deployment of
(38:57):
Copilot Studio for their agentsenvironments or their building
applications around Azure OpenAI.
Then it's okay.
Well, what are the tiers thatwe're seeing?
Yeah, and where do we see mostof those customers?
There's still a pretty solidchunk who are putting their toe
in the water.
Maybe they've rolled it out bythe way, I'll challenge some of
(39:21):
the strategies there but maybethey've rolled it out to a few
people in IT and they've rolledit out typically to key
executives.
Yeah, to make sure that eitherthey can drum up enough
sponsorship or say that they'reon the journey just in case
somebody goes.
What are we doing about AI?
I think that's fine and look,it's good to know.
(39:44):
I think the important thing forIT getting their hands on it is
that you're comfortable withthe security, compliance and
governance, and there's nooversharing risks, et cetera, et
cetera.
So I completely get that.
I think, though, we're and I'msure you'll agree this, ali with
your own journey.
This only really comes to lightwhen you get it into users'
(40:06):
hands, and you know you reallystart seeing human creativity
take over, and so I would saywhere the bulk of our customers
are now are in this what I wouldclass as personal productivity
layer.
Yeah, where they're looking atMicrosoft 365, copilot, and you
know you look back.
Csiro have just released theirresults of the Copilotpilot
(40:28):
trial, of their Microsoft 365co-pilot trial.
You know you mentioned DTAthere, and even you may have
seen one recently with BrisbaneCatholic Education, where they
identified the personalproductivity gain of educators
saving 9.3 hours per week ofeducator time, and I think that
(40:49):
and don't get me wrong that isfantastic DTA trial.
We're finding an hour a day.
Csiro didn't get, I don't thinkgot down to an actual level of
hours, but showed a generalrecognition of productivity
there in the report, but I thinkwe're scratching the surface
there with those figures.
Yes, and that's that personalproductivity layer, where we're
(41:12):
basically using it forsummarizing first draft
summarized first draft andthings like meeting recap inside
a team, being very popular andcertainly I love it.
I use it every day.
It enables me to double andtriple book myself and still
stay across things, so I likethat.
The next stage, though, is, Ithink, where we're now seeing,
(41:34):
literally in the past, I wouldsay past three or four months
customers really go quite quick,and that is around
organizational impact.
So, taking that, assuming thatwe can get that kind of 10%
productivity gain let's say, 10to 15% productivity gain that I
mentioned before, which isfantastic, right, the
(41:56):
productivity dividend that thatenables organizations to focus
on other things in theirorganization, I think is
fantastic.
The next part, though, is howdo we look at our business
process layer and how do we lookat infusing that Microsoft 365
Copilot with agents, you know,bringing together our core
(42:17):
systems of records, our corebusiness processes, and infusing
that with generative AI?
Yeah, you know, I was justusing ours yesterday, where I
was combining data from, youknow, our customer data, from
our CRM database, with ourfinancial data, and this this
before would have been hours andhours of work.
(42:39):
In fact, hand on heart, I'm notparticularly good at VLOOKUPs
myself, but being able to dothat inside of the chat, inside
of Copilot I, and come back withjust amazing results that are
super useful, that I canliterally just copy and paste
and put into a management report, were just incredible.
That that, literally there,right there, saved me three
hours with one task, yeah, and,and so this is where I think
(43:04):
we're going to start to see this, uh, really really take off.
But without a doubt, I would say, you know, if you split between
those three tiers, we're goingto start to see this really,
really take off.
But without a doubt, I wouldsay, you know, if you split
between those three tiers, we'renow seeing.
If you would have asked me sixmonths ago, I'd say 90% of our
customers are in that, you know,tested.
I would say now we're probablylooking at maybe 20% of our
customers in that line.
They've now shifted up toproductivity, personal
(43:24):
productivity, and we're nowseeing a 10 to 20%.
I would say maybe more lookingat okay, what does this agentic
layer mean for us going forward?
Ali (43:33):
Well, I'm going to share with you, before I go to my last
question to you and I'm awareof time and thoroughly enjoying
this I'm going to share with yousome thoughts from a challenge
manager working in this spaceand living and breathing AI,
know AI.
First of all, I'm so excitedabout the agentic world.
(43:53):
I've already chosen names formy agents and I'm going to I'm
going to collect them.
Ian (43:58):
And you want to share.
Ali (44:01):
I want to, and then I am thinking also, I can have agents
and build a relationship withthem and the project will finish
and then I'll delete them.
How wonderful is that.
So I'm already seeing the storyin my head.
But one thing that I alwaystalk to people about, and
certainly with the clients Iwork with, is that it's no
longer can co-pilot togenerative AI improve my
(44:23):
productivity or not.
That argument is already done.
We've already proved it.
You do not need like.
If there's any advice I can giveto anybody, do not spend your
resources in testing whetherthat is going to make a
productivity gain or not.
It's already doing it.
You need to think about how canall of your people get hold of
this technology, how you supportthem and train them and look
(44:46):
forward to the advancement, likeI'm already thinking about how
the eugenic world is going toshape up my workflow as a
professional.
So that's one.
The second thing, for example,I work now with La Trobe
University and we've got about200 people using COVID and about
80% of them use it on a dailybasis.
(45:07):
I always say to these peopleyou're already making an impact
on the organization, becauseevery time you use CorePilot to
process a task or send adocument, the ripple effect on
the organization is alreadyhappening.
So it's not just your workflowand that's why other people will
(45:28):
actually see what Copart isdoing and say can we have a
license?
And all of these things.
So if there's any advice I cangive to anybody listening to
this podcast, stop saying isthis really real and it's going
to improve my productivity.
It does.
The only difference is thatonly competency and really
understanding of the technology,which is not as shatteringly
(45:49):
difficult, especially inMicrosoft now, is making the
experience so easy, like one ofthe changes that you guys made
recently is that whenever youlook at Microsoft Core Pilot, in
whatever setting, it's the sameexperience.
You're actually seeing the samethings.
Now, that's amazing from achange management perspective.
Now, that's an amazing from achange management perspective.
(46:22):
You're actually creating thesame consistent, cohesive
picture that whatever you lookat co-op art, it's the same
experience.
So you don't need to thinkabout it differently.
Maybe six months ago it was not, but now it's actually
wonderfully.
What's your advice to people inthe change management community
when it comes to the generativeAI and AI as a technology going
forward, does that mean that weneed to think about our
profession, not just as users,but we think forward, about our
(46:43):
customers and clients who willbe using this technology and how
we help them adopt that change.
Ian (46:48):
No, I think that's a great question and actually linked to
the comments you just made there, Ali.
In terms of the productivitygains, there is done.
What I would also say is doneas well.
There's enough evidence, Ithink, to show that Microsoft
365 Copilot derives productivityreturn.
And look, I've worked acrossfinancial services in my prior
(47:11):
role.
I work now across, obviously,all of the public sector markets
.
The reality is, for aninformation worker, a typical
information worker, 90% of whatan information worker does in a
bank is the same as what they doin government.
There's that 10% finia, whichmakes us different.
So, absolutely, you could takethe DTA report and transfer that
(47:34):
over to a financial servicesinstitution.
And there's your business case,right.
What I would do, though, that,I think, is way more, you know,
I guess, back your business case, right.
What I would do, though, that,I think, is way more.
You know.
It gets back to firstprinciples, right.
The reality about this isgenerative.
Ai is out there already.
People are using it every day.
Chatgpt is the most usedconsumer tool that has ever been
(47:56):
seen on the planet at thisstage of its release.
People you then look at mostadvanced sorry, the most adopted
applications in the world rightnow at a consumer level.
So you have ChatGPT granted.
You have Google Search, whichnow has Gemini Gemini Infusion.
People are using that everysingle day.
(48:17):
You open up WhatsApp, it's gotAI infusion in there.
Facebook, Instagram, et cetera,et cetera.
People are using this every dayand they're getting used to it.
Don't be the person that, whenthey come into work, go, oh no,
you can't use that or we'regoing to shut it down, right.
So the answer is you just needa solution that is secure, that
you trust within your ownenvironment, that is going to
(48:39):
give generative AI capabilityand, by the way, that's what
we've just done with you mayhave seen with Microsoft 365
Copilot Chats, which we're nowmaking available to every Entra,
everybody with a work ID andEntra ID.
So then, taking that forward tothe change management side, and
I think it's a reallyinteresting point of change
management, Ali, and you knowyou've been again, you're way
(49:00):
more in this space than I am dayto day, but I look at the role
really of the change manager tomove now from chief teaching
officer to chief excitementofficer, and I'll give you an
example.
Actually, some of Latrobe'sstudents may have been there.
I was in Sydney recently and wehad a room full of university
(49:22):
students and we asked them aquestion and we said how many
people use generative AI everyday Maybe chat GPTs and others
every day?
Everybody put their hand up.
How many of you pay for chatGPTs premium version out of your
own back pocket?
These are students, universitystudents.
This is $30 per user per monthin the US.
(49:44):
I believe Seventy-five percentof the room put their hand up.
By the way, they've clearly gota lot more money than I did
when I was a student.
I can't remember having $30 amonth available at the end of
the month, and it just showsthis is now a staple diet of a
modern worker.
You know these are peoplecoming into the workforce in the
(50:05):
next year or two, right, thatare going to be expecting this
so and are fluent already.
Yeah, so I think, starting fromthat premise that you know I
don't know if you've seen ourwork lab details and maybe we
can post in the chat after thisis we do something called the
Work Trend Index, and the WorkTrend Index said that 75% of
(50:26):
people surveyed worldwide andthis is thousands of people
worldwide 75% of people usegenerative AI tools in work
today and 78% of those tools arenot IT-sanctioned, are not
corporate-sanctioned.
So this space is done.
So there is what I would saywith it is and look, hopefully
(50:47):
the answer is Microsoft 365Copilot or one of our Copilots
at Microsoft, which areobviously enterprise-grade and
secure and de-risk theseenvironments.
But if it's not ours, then thereality is, for organizations,
the constant risk of doingnothing right now, or going slow
, is way more than the cost ofdoing something or moving fast
(51:10):
and taking advantage of this newtechnology.
So, to go back to the changemanagement journey, the change
management journey for me is,you know again, moving away from
hey, it's a manual and I needto teach you on this manual.
You know the old PBX days orwhatever towards a much more
creating a vibrant environmentfor change in an organization.
(51:33):
You know, and you've done afantastic job of this.
You know you've built.
You know you've built yourchampion communities.
You've created forums to share.
You've.
You know we do it.
I don't think we've ever done,side by side with our customers,
so many excitement days.
And you know, say, in publicsector, right now we have our
co-parlor club where, you know,through Engage, we've connected
(51:56):
hundreds of public sector usersacross Australia and New Zealand
to collaborate with each otherand to crowdsource ideas on how
to make each other moreproductive.
So I think this is, you know.
To me, this is what it's allabout now is it's, you know,
chief excitement officer.
For me is the role of a changemanager going forward.
Ali (52:18):
I'm not changing my title, but I like where you are you
don't?
Like that one.
Ian (52:25):
It's a CEO title, so you know maybe.
Ali (52:27):
I'm going to go to my bosses and say my role is chief
excitement officer and Iprobably need to ask Corpala to
come up with alternative titlesfor me.
Ian (52:38):
Well, I'm in sales, not marketing.
Ali (52:41):
Yes, yes, I can tell, but look, I, I take, I take your
point around.
For me, the challenge manageris, first of all, they need to
be super users.
Um, and that's the only way toknow this challenge is actually
to embrace it heavily, heavily,and, for example, I've proved it
through through experimentswith the change managers I work
(53:04):
with it saves us about 30%.
This is even, I'm pretty sureyou know, with time and
competency it will be even more.
And so the questions willalways be to organizations when
people will get more time, howdo we find ways to give them
more meaningful work?
That will be really the mainquestion for organizations,
(53:26):
because giving people meaningfulwork is a hard thing.
But that's for another day andanother discussion, ian, with
you.
Ian (53:36):
Well, I think the big thing with that, Ali, is to really
focus, and this is where, youknow, a lot of discussions
around our jobs are going to belost, et cetera, et cetera.
You know, to me it's the wrongconversation for people to have.
And generative AI isn't abouthow to get people to do more
(53:58):
work.
It's how do we elevate humansto do better work, more
impactful work and, as I said,like, look, you're in higher
education.
See the educators in highereducation today and in K-12
massively.
What's the commonality theyhave with doctors, nurses,
emergency services right now?
And the thing they have incommon is they're pretty much
(54:21):
across the board.
A key corporate strategy withall of them right now is how do
we take the pressure off them,how do we reduce their workload?
How do we make this a moreattractive place to work?
How do we elevate their purpose?
And this is the opportunity nowwith generative AI, not the
kind of scare mongering sideswhere it's going to cost
(54:42):
everybody's jobs.
The reality is the Westernworld right now is seeing
unemployment levels that havebeen the lowest in generations.
This is about how do we elevate, how do we become?
You know, take government,education and private
organizations to a wholedifferent level of
transformation and evolutiongoing forward.
Ali (55:03):
Fantastic.
I am grateful for your timetoday, ian.
This has been a reallyenlightening conversation for me
.
What we would like them toreally learn about from this
episode is that embrace thetechnology.
It's not going to harm you, andMicrosoft 365 Core Pilot is
actually at the vanguard.
Thank you, first of all, toMicrosoft for persevering and
(55:26):
not missing out on theopportunity, like they did with
the iPhone.
Your CEO took charge and Ireally loved him and I follow
him all the time and I love whatyou guys do.
Maybe next time, not toodistant in the future, I'll get
you back again, ian, and then wecover another aspect, or maybe
(55:48):
the journey so far, because thisconversation probably will be
old in about three months andthat's right.
Yes, how would people connectwith you, ian?
Ian (55:59):
Yes, so I'm on.
Ali (56:00):
LinkedIn.
Ian (56:01):
Best way to connect with me and, yeah, maybe we can you
know when we post.
We can share my link there, soplease feel free to reach out at
any time.
Ali (56:11):
Thank you so much.
Thank you again for joining meat the Inner Game of Change
podcast, ian.
I'm grateful for your time.
Until next time, stay well andstay safe.
Thank you, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening.
If you found this episodevaluable, remember to subscribe
(56:31):
to stay updated on upcomingepisodes.
Your support is trulyappreciated and by sharing this
podcast with your colleagues,friends and fellow change
practitioners, and by sharingthis podcast with your
colleagues, friends and fellowchange practitioners, it can
help me reach even moreindividuals and professionals
who can benefit from thesediscussions.
Remember, and in my opinion,change is an enduring force and
(56:52):
you will only have a measure ofcertainty and control when you
embrace it.
Until next time, thank you forbeing part of the Inner Game of
Change community.
I am Ali Juma, and this of theInner Game of Change community.
I am Ali Jammah, and this isthe Inner Game of Change podcast
.
Generative AI isn't about how to get people to do more
work.
It's how do we elevate humansto do better work, more
impactful work.
But the big kicker and to yourpoint around change management,
ali was big difference betweenthose who were able to turn that
one hour a day into productivetime, ie do something more
(00:22):
valuable or turn it into realproductivity savings was the
number three.
And three was the number oftraining sessions they attended,
and so the moment they hadthose three training sessions,
they were able to recognizethose productivity gains, which
I thought was fascinating at thetime.
Ali (00:47):
Welcome to the Inner Game of Change, the podcast that
explores the evolving landscapeof change management, leadership
and transformation.
I am your host, ali Juma.
Today I'm chatting with IanHurd, director of Public Sector
Modern Work at Microsoft ANZ, aleader who's right at the heart
(01:08):
of how AI is reshaping the waywe work.
In this episode, we talk aboutthe real story behind Generative
AI Co-Pilot, what change looksinside Microsoft and why the
role of a change manager mightjust be turning into a chief
excitement officer, fromnavigating resistance yes, even
(01:28):
inside Microsoft to embracing agenetic workflows.
This episode offers a groundedlook at how leadership and
curiosity go hand in hand intoday's fast-moving world.
We also dig into what makes AIadoption truly work the mindset,
the momentum and the magic thathappens when teams stop asking
(01:50):
if it works and start exploringhow it can help.
This one is real, practical,with a good humor,
forward-looking ideas andinsights for anyone navigating
what's next?
I am grateful to have Ianchatting with me today.
Well, ian, thank you so muchfor joining me in the In a Game
(02:13):
of Change podcast.
I am eternally grateful foryour time.
Ian (02:17):
Thanks, ali, looking forward to this.
Ali (02:19):
Thank you so much, ian.
Based on your role and what youdo, we're going to talk a lot
about technology and AI, so Ihope we're going to inject some
human aspect of it, and I'm surethere's going to be some funny
stories in there.
Before we start, it would befantastic to introduce yourself
to my audience.
Ian (02:39):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Hi everyone.
My name is Ian Hurd.
So, hi everyone, my name is IanHurd.
I'm in a very fortunateposition to lead the Australian
New Zealand public sectorbusiness for Microsoft.
Pertaining to all things modernwork across our Microsoft 365
(03:01):
stack and also ourvirtualization stack with
solutions like Windows 365,actual virtual desktop and then,
coupled with that, also ourfantastic devices on the surface
.
Ali (03:15):
When you say modern workplace and new ways of
working, do?
Ian (03:23):
you want to educate me on that, ian?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely,absolutely, I think, for me, the
modern work we moved frommodern workplace to modern work
and I think we made that callaround COVID time, when
obviously the lines between theworkplace and work had blurred
(03:44):
hugely and so for us, modernwork and others have called it
the digital workplace and newways of work are just really how
day-to-day traditional workactivities can be infused with
digital technology and to make,hopefully, employees more
productive but also enable themto progress their careers, look
(04:04):
after areas like well-being andalso address, I think, the thing
that probably all, at somestage in our lives, have
addressed, had to address, whichis the work-life balance or, as
I've recently heard, it called,work-life harmony, because I
think the opportunity forbalance is long gone.
It's more now how we canharmonize the interaction
between work and home.
If a balance is long gone, it'smore now how we can harmonize
the interaction between work andhome.
Ali (04:25):
That's a nice way of actually describing it.
It's the harmony between thetwo states.
I must admit I don't have aharmony.
The lines are blurred betweenbecause work for me is actually
a bit of a fun as well.
Part of my fun, absolutely.
Ian (04:45):
It's got to be right, it's got to be.
And I think the harmony pointis just so crucial.
You know we're living in a24-hour world now.
You know it's not like.
I remember back in I guess itwas probably about 2000,.
You can probably keep me honesthere I had the do you remember
the Palm Trios, and then afterthat the BlackBerry.
(05:08):
Back in I guess it would havebeen 2006, 2007.
And that was the moment for methat you stopped finishing your
day at 5.30, 6 o'clock orwhatever that time was, and you
started to live that 24-hourlife.
So I think it's been a realjourney for the workplace over
(05:29):
the past 15 years or so 20 yearsor so is trying to find what is
that right balance, what isthat right harmony.
And as you said, ali, you'vehit part of that harmony, which
is you're doing, what you'reinterested in, which is just
crucial.
Ali (05:43):
I love that let's dive into .
So you work for Microsoft, andI mean what I love about what
you do, what you guys do atMicrosoft.
Change and advancement is atthe heart of everything you do.
I'm going to share with yousomething funny.
I always think that there's agroup of people in a very dark
room somewhere in Microsoft andthey're thinking of all of these
(06:05):
user ideas, you know, and whatthe users need to have.
And am I true?
Ian (06:12):
You probably are.
I don't see that, but I wouldhope we're doing it, not just
thinking of what we think peopleare going to use, but actually
we actually start off withunderstanding how people live
today and build from there.
You know, I think, as always,look, you'll know this, ali.
You know there's, there's thatyou've always got to have a
really good balance.
By you know to use the HenryFord analogy by you know,
(06:34):
sometimes you've got to build afaster horse, right but.
But sometimes you've got tochange the game completely.
And you know, certainly I thinkthat's what we strive to do and
I think that's you'll tell meyou're far better qualified in
the world of change than I am,but I think that's a crucial
part of change.
Sometimes you've got tocompletely change the game and
(06:55):
sometimes you need to just dowhat you're doing now better.
Ali (06:59):
And now Microsoft, over the last couple of years, moved
into changing the game andfocusing on artificial
intelligence.
Talk to me what happens andwhat are some of the
conversations that probablyhappened about a couple of years
ago at Microsoft, and then youstarted thinking this is going
(07:24):
to be a huge change andcertainly we're going to change
the game.
Ian (07:30):
Yeah, yeah, look, I'm sure there are many conversations
that I'm not aware of or notprivy to, but certainly what I
can see, I think it'sunbelievable that we're what 14
months ago Sorry, 14 months, twoyears and two months ago, so 26
months ago GPT had launchedinto the market and I think that
(07:53):
the rates have changed.
That we've seen in that spacesince that stage has been just
incredible market disruption.
We're hearing of something newliterally every week, aren't we?
In terms of how artificialintelligence is affecting the
home, affecting work and, Ithink, more importantly, the
(08:19):
promise that it's got to reallytransform everything we do going
forward.
So, certainly from Microsoft'sperspective, we've obviously
been on a huge change initiativeourselves.
You know, I remember Copilot.
I think the first out of theblocks that we had was GitHub
Copilot, which reallyrevolutionizes the overall
productivity of the developer,and we're now seeing, you know,
(08:41):
thousands and millions of linesof code being developed by
GitHub Copilot and reallyextreme productivity gains there
.
Then, literally, I remembersitting there in I think it was
March March 2023, I guess whenCopilot was announced and, trust
(09:05):
me, we found out the same dayas you did and we were like, wow
, this really changes the game.
You know, the ability toconnect all of those amazing
demonstrations we've seen withChatGPT, but now be able to
ground it securely in your workenvironment to really be able to
provide that highly qualifiedintern to work alongside you.
(09:29):
And then the other interestingpart for me, then, is okay, that
really enables humans to dowhat they're doing today better
and more productive.
And you know, if you don't mind,ali, I'll just zoom out a
little bit outside of Microsoft.
I think one of the things thatwe need to embrace here is the
(09:52):
macro position for us and themacro opportunity and the macro
position that we have, certainlyin the developed world right
now, which is that areas likeunemployment are at an all-time
low Productivity.
In most Western economies,productivity per capita is
(10:13):
pretty flat right, given thecertainly, since, if you wrap up
mobile, cloud and now AI allinto one trend and call it the
digital industrial revolution,it hasn't really fulfilled that
productivity game promise thatwe saw, maybe, in the steam
revolution or the electricityrevolution.
(10:33):
Yet is what I would say Not yetyes.
Yeah.
And then you look at, you knowpopulation growth, and
population growth is flat todeclining, right, populations
are getting older.
Here in Australia, if I look atacross Australia and New
Zealand, you know our workingage population will decline by
(10:53):
on the current path, decline by5% to 10% over the next 30 years
.
And the number because of, youknow, the great advances in
healthcare that we allexperienced we're going to have
5% to 10% more people in.
You know, if you like,retirement age, yeah, so we're
going to have 5% to 10% morepeople in.
You know, if you likeretirement age.
So we're going to have 5% to10% less people supporting 5% to
10% people more and peoplehaving less children, et cetera,
(11:14):
et cetera.
So we're left with this deeprequirement now to really
accelerate human productivityand human ingenuity.
It's a must, not a nice to have, you know you could argue
things like the steam revolution.
Human productivity and humaningenuity, it's a must, not a
nice to have.
You know you could argue thingslike steam revolution, that was
a nice to have that acceleratedhuman productivity.
This is a must, and so I thinkfor me, artificial intelligence
just couldn't come at a bettertime.
(11:34):
It's, you know, yes, there areareas of change that we need to
get through.
There are considerations wehave to work through with our
customers, with our partners andwithin our own technology
groups, but we're in anextremely exciting time.
I think, and just very, veryblessed that I'm in an
organization that's at theforefront of that.
Ali (11:55):
I'm always keen to understand organizations like
Microsoft and I can only makesome assumptions.
They play two roles and I canonly make some assumptions.
They play in two roles.
Well, first of all, change.
They actually make the change,they're the change makers to
their clients, to the outsideworld.
But then to introduce thechange to the outside world,
that change would need to happeninternally to their employees.
(12:18):
Yes, yeah, talk to me about any.
You know somebody working at anorganization like Microsoft.
Does that mean that thetraditional way we look at
managing change?
Okay, well, let me put it in asimple format Does that mean
that there is no change?
Resistance from people insideMicrosoft when it comes to
changes?
Because that's the core of whatyou do.
Ian (12:44):
Yeah, look, we're humans.
Yes, this is what I'm alwayscurious.
Is that does the human, doesthe environment and the role
change the human.
Yeah, look, find me a human whosays that they always love
change and I'll find you a liarright.
But without a doubt, look, Ithink we are in a constant state
(13:05):
of change, ali, and I think,for Microsoft, you know we've
worked really hard, especiallysince Satya's come in.
Look, a lot's been written.
I don't know if you've readSatya's book or anything like
this about a hidden restart or ahidden refresh, hidden restart
or hidden refresh but you know,one of the big cultural resets
(13:31):
Satya put into our business wasthis idea of growth mindset and
this theory of constant learning, constant change and constant
growth, and it's something thatwe've really driven hard since
Satya came in.
I think Satya came in 2014, Ibelieve 2013, 2014.
And it's something that we'vereally instilled.
(13:54):
You know, to our own admission,you know, the previous 10 years
or so, we've missed big waveslike mobile, you know when.
Really, that was a market thatwe could and maybe should have
capitalized on, and we knew thatin certain places, like cloud,
we were maybe a little bitbehind at the time.
You know, guys like Google andAWS had blazed a trail there,
(14:17):
and others at the time, and wealso needed to be more
responsive to new market trends.
So first and foremost is ourculture and our culture around
growth mindset was fundamental.
And coupled into that then wasthat needs to be more than just
a sign up in the office.
You know, it needs to besomething that we drive through.
So we changed a lot around howwe measure success in our
(14:40):
organization and we usebasically three differentiation
spheres when we look at impactin our organization.
So it's not just good enoughthat you contribute individually
, because if you contributeindividually, that gives you
that kind of self-servingapproach where it's okay to do
whatever you want as long as youhit your target, and in an
(15:05):
organization of 250,000 peoplethat isn't conducive to a
productive environment.
So the next part that we addedand I think probably the most
crucial areas is the next is howdo you contribute to the
success of others?
So how do you help those aroundyou to be better and to develop
and to be more effective?
(15:25):
And the next one is how do youbuild on the work of others to
to drive?
So maybe give you an exampleyou know I lead a sales team, um
, and say I don't know, saywe're working with your
organization and then to me,nirvana is that your accounts
executive or sales specialists.
(15:47):
They research trends thatthey're seeing around, say
co-pilot utilization across theworld.
What are other universitiesdoing?
What are the learnings we'redoing?
What have their contemporariesdone in other parts of the world
or their peers locally here inAustralia and New Zealand done?
Okay, great.
Then we've taken that.
So that's building on the workof others.
We've then turned that intosomething that will add value to
(16:11):
your organization, to the truck, and that's great.
And then you know we get to agreat position and that
salesperson sells something toyou Fantastic.
But then, once they've donethat, the journey for me doesn't
stop there.
How are they going to pass onthose learnings to their peers?
Yeah, how are they going tocontribute to the success of
others?
And so through that approach,it's really helped us evolve our
(16:33):
culture, to change, to learning, to development and to sharing
and collaboration.
And it's a big part of ourinterview process.
It's a big part.
We don't just look at, you know, sales figures or how many
lines of code they can develop.
It's culture first, there,which I think is just absolutely
crucial.
And then the last part of thatis what I would say is and
(16:54):
probably the thing that probablyshocks people coming into
Microsoft more than anything iswith those foundations, how
self-serve the culture is.
You know we don't reallyprescribe or micromanage the
learning journey for our teammembers it's very much choose
your own adventure.
Yes, we have a vast library oflearning, but we also encourage
(17:14):
people to go out there and findtheir own learning as well, find
their own insights and share it.
So I think to the changemanagement piece.
A lot of that change managementis done amongst peers.
We've almost got a culture ofchange in that model.
Ali (17:28):
I love it.
This idea of an organization islike a team sport Everybody
contributes.
But I also love the idea thatby me learning and choosing my
own learning journey, I knowthat whatever I'm going to use
or choose will contribute to thesuccess and the win of
(17:49):
Microsoft as a team and to sharemy own experience with
Microsoft.
Anyway, as business partners, Ihaven't really seen anything
different, apart from whoever Italk to.
They're genuinely interested inmy success as a client.
And this is not a plugin, thisis not anything.
(18:09):
I've actually seen it and Iexperience it every time I get
in touch with microsoft uh,that's good to hear.
Ian (18:16):
That's what.
That's what we aim for, sothat's good to hear yes you, you
did talk about copilot.
Ali (18:22):
Um, I should call it properly mic 365 Core Pilot.
It's a biggie.
Ian (18:26):
That's right.
Ali (18:28):
And talk to me about the trials.
I think started with thegovernment agencies about a
couple of years ago and I thinkthey were the early adopters of
now.
Four or five months ago theyreleased a report on the
(18:49):
adoption of Copilot and one ofthe things that really sort of
fascinated me about that reportis that they were using because
Copilot has been upgraded almostevery day.
I have been living andbreathing Copilot since January
last year and I've seen the hugejump, especially around June or
(19:10):
July last year, and now I loveit.
But I'm thinking they haveexperienced co-pilot when it was
at the baby stages.
What's your take on that?
You know, because when werelease a report about an old
experience and the technologyhas already gone so far ahead,
(19:30):
how do you marry and how do youbalance those two things?
Ian (19:34):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's great that you're seeing and
experiencing the constantdevelopment of Microsoft 365
Copilot and I'm well done ongetting the naming right and
there's a lot of Copilots outthere for sure, so that's great.
Yet one of the things I listento quite a lot of podcasts.
(19:55):
So apologies if I'm using likea massively overused phrase or a
buzzword phrase, but I reallylove how federal government took
an approach of almost theystripped down this whole
question of artificialintelligence down to the first
principles.
Yes, and the first principle,really and, by the way, I'm
(20:16):
massively paraphrasing andputting words into people's
mouths with this, but I'll givemy summary of what happened
there was that the governmentand federal governments really
were very keen to make a firstleap into intergenerative AI
because they could see, you know, from a first principle you
know this, I don't know aboutyou, ali, I always work on the
(20:37):
basis of is this something thatis just going to happen,
regardless of, you know,legislation, government,
regardless of organizationalinterference, et cetera, et
cetera, et cetera.
Is this a trend that'sultimately going to happen?
You know, and certainly mobile,yes, was always going to happen
(20:58):
.
The moment the iPhone 1 waslaunched.
It was going to happen.
Right, you could see thebenefits, which is so clear.
Cloud it was definitely goingto happen, right, you can see
the benefits straight away interms of the speed of innovation
, the reduction in costs,increase in flexibility, et
cetera, and it coincided withnetwork backbone increasing
monumentally, so it was alwaysgoing to catch on.
(21:21):
It was a matter of when, and Ithink generative AI falls into
this bucket.
It's happening, it's going toit's happening.
It's going to happen evenfaster and it's going to be a
fundamental part of our life, inthe same way as internet mobile
cloud was.
So I think I think they lookedat it through that lens and this
is my assumption.
Yeah, and I think that wasawesome.
(21:42):
They then looked at Copilot wasa very small part of this.
This overall discussion, umwith federal government at the
time, because what they werelooking at was was fantastic,
which is okay.
Well, what does australia needto do to be competitive in this
space and to thrive in thisspace, not be a victim of change
?
Yeah, and so they.
You know we started discussionswith the government that
(22:05):
resulted in, uh, australia beingthe first country on the planet
where Microsoft had announcedan investment in be comfortable
that generative AI was a bigpart of this.
The next was federal governmentthen saying, ok, well, that's
(22:43):
great from an infrastructure andfoundational, but how do we put
our initial toe in the water?
You know what's the generativeAI?
Almost training wheels that wecan bring into our environment
to see the benefits.
Today, and this is where we wentwith at the time, the six-month
trial with Copilot andMicrosoft 365 Copilot.
To your point, around the trialand towards the increase and
(23:06):
the improvement of Microsoft 365Copilot.
The trial went from December2023 through to the 30th of June
2024.
And the report from the DigitalTransformation Agency, the D
dta, was written from there.
So a lot of the findings there,to your point, you know, as I
(23:29):
keep saying to my team and tocustomers you've probably heard
me say it before is you know,our product is only going to get
better and the users are onlygoing to get more proficient um
from here on in right um, and sofor even that first six months,
you know we were seeing of thereport an an average of an hour
a day productivity gain.
And then you dive into OK, wherewere they seeing it?
(23:50):
It was only, really, if you lookat the report, in Teams, in the
enterprise chat capability andthen Word, I think, were the top
three.
There, you know there wasrecognition that Excel was still
improving and you know recentlywe've improved with Python for
Excel.
They couldn't use largely theOutlook capability, which email
(24:12):
is a big productivity driver wasseen inside of Microsoft 365
Copilot, the ability to, youknow, summarize and prioritize
your inbox, and because that wasonly available in Outlook New
at the time, not Outlook Classic, which it is now, it's
available in Outlook New at thetime, not Outlook Classic, which
it is now it's available inOutlook Classic.
So to be able to get thoselevels of productivity gains
(24:32):
were just incredible.
But the big kicker and to yourpoint around change management,
ali, was big difference betweenthose who were able to turn that
one hour a day into productivetime, ie do something more
valuable or turn it into realproductivity savings, was the
(24:54):
number three.
And three was the number oftraining sessions they attended.
Yeah, and so the moment theyhad those three training
sessions they were able torecognize those productivity
gains, which I thought wasfascinating at the time.
Ali (25:08):
The reason why I'm asking about that is mainly from my own
experience.
I worked with quite a fewpeople on getting them on board
to use Microsoft 365, copilotand, let's just say, march last
year.
The people that I introduced toCopilot at the time and Copilot
was just getting up to speedwith the enhancements and
(25:33):
getting better, basically, whenI lost their confidence in the
system, it was hard for me toregain it later, and because
they saw one version of it andtherefore, with my change
management practice, I actuallychanged my narrative.
And so my narrative was thatstay a little bit longer with it
, and the longer you stay withthis, the better it will get,
(25:57):
the better.
You'll be familiar with that.
And then that did not work, andso I shifted my narrative into
a different thing.
Don't be disheartened if copoladoes not respond to you the way
you would like it to respondNot yet.
So I tried different ways togain that, because, like with
(26:19):
any new technology, there'salways doubt.
You know what is this and allof that, plus the noise in the
market, you know this is goingto replace people's jobs, and so
it was quite overwhelming.
But my story so far is that,and I'll give you, you know a
sentiment from somebody onMonday and they said that
(26:39):
there's absolutely no way I cando anything without CoPilot now.
And that's a huge mind shift.
And the same people that Italked to in March and April
last year.
It's the same people.
Now they're saying actually, weheard it's actually doing good
things.
So I was always fascinated abouthow the government has gone
(27:01):
about what I call the oldversion in my head anyway, the
old version of CorePilot and theupgraded version.
However, what Microsoft isdoing as well is doing change
management.
So what OpenAI has done,they've basically released it to
the masses and say use it.
That's actually changemanagement.
You experiment with it, youplay with it, and I loved what
(27:23):
you guys did as well.
You've added, for example,copilot and 2Edge as a version
in there at the start and peoplecan play with it, and I really
admire the level of support.
I think that is a deepunderstanding from Microsoft on
the power of focusing on howthis manage.
Sorry, this change needs to bemanaged within an organization.
(27:45):
The level of support andinterest that I got from
Microsoft was tremendous andthat gives me a very good idea
about how they think aboutchange management.
Ian (27:59):
Yeah, it is so critical In the, as a cloud organization, we
live and die by how muchutilization our products have,
but more importantly, I think,the impact that the solutions
have and with that, it would begreat to get your opinion as a
change manager.
This speed of innovation hereis so great, but also the
(28:24):
parameters of how it cantransform are so open.
You know it's.
I go back to the days where youknow I used to be.
You know, my primary line ofbusiness was voice PBXs.
Well, that had, you know, 60different functions and that's
what it did.
Right, you know 50, 60different functions.
You know 58 of them peopledidn't want to use.
They just want to be able topick up a phone and do voicemail
(28:45):
.
Right, that's realisticallywhat they wanted.
So you just train them on thatstuff, you know.
The reality is for me is youknow, there's no point writing a
manual for this thing becauseit's gonna.
It's gonna change and also thethe people doing the change
management you know, it's notyou don't just get up and train
people on this.
Right, you've got to getinteraction, you've got to get
(29:07):
peers talking to each other, achampion network.
And I'm just, firstly, let mejust recognize, you know it's
been awesome partnering withyourself, ali.
You know the creativity thatyou've brought in terms of
things like your championnetworks, in terms of how you've
been able to manage the changemanagement program there, has
just been phenomenal and it'sbeen great to see some of the
(29:28):
impact there.
And I think, though you know,from a Microsoft side, it's
really great that you knowyou're recognizing the.
You know the team are reallyinvested in this.
You know, outside of jobdescription, we're really
invested in this because we'restill learning with you.
You know this isn't the PBX with68 different functions.
Right, this is us learning whatit does every day with you.
(29:52):
And you know this is going togo even greater now as we expand
into the agentic world.
You know we're able to bringtogether now the core Microsoft
365 Copilot capability and thenexpanding it to your
applications and how yourapplications can work with each
other in an agentic world withMicrosoft 365 Copilot.
(30:14):
You know the opportunities hereand the use cases start to
become limitless.
So I think the agile manner isjust so crucial, and the link
between Microsoft, our customersand then the different user
base within our customers iswhat's going to drive change
here.
This constant sharing thecontribution towards each
(30:36):
other's success is going to bejust fundamental.
And certainly thoseorganizations with that kind of
culture, those who are going tothrive best, I think, in the AI
world.
Ali (30:44):
I want to shift gear, Ian, and then I want to ask you a
question around.
All that is well withtechnology.
I want to shift gear, Ian, andthen I want to ask you a
question around all is well withtechnology and the advancement,
what can you see from where yousit in terms of any cultural
shift in how organizations aregoing to behave going forward?
Ian (31:02):
It's a good question.
And look, I think the future,this is one of those where you
look back in two years andrealize that you've missed it by
an absolute mile because themarket's changing so fast.
Yes, the reality is, in thenext two years, the bulk I'd say
the vast majority of, certainlyinformation workers and I would
(31:22):
suggest the workforce ingeneral won't be going into
Outlook or Teams as their firstport of call, like they do today
.
When they come into the office,they'll be asking, hopefully,
their co-pilot, they'll beasking co-pilots, I think.
Then, culturally and you mayhave heard Satya's and if not,
(31:45):
I'll share with you the link,maybe you share with it in your
post Satya's recent podcastwhere he was talking about the
move of business logic out ofSaaS applications into the
agents going forward and theopportunities that that brought.
Yes, and so I look at that andthen go, okay, well, if that is
the evolution which personally Ithink he's absolutely spot on,
(32:06):
then what does that mean fororganizational cultures going
forward and the fluidity of anorganization?
You know so we've always beentraditionally siloed.
You know whether it's you knowfinance or you know the faculty
area in an education environment, sales, marketing, et cetera,
et cetera.
You know frontline services, etcetera, et cetera, et cetera,
(32:27):
you know, frontline services, etcetera.
This, the move from thoseapplications now to become, you
know, those applications now toin effect just become crud
databases, with the businessprocess now lying in the agents,
enables us to bring togetherthe culture of an organization
very closely, where we've gotreal visibility into each
(32:48):
other's lives and real, really amuch less siloed environment.
So I don't have a clear answeron what that will mean for
culture, but certainly, as Imentioned before, the big thing
for me for culture is that it'sthe skills and the culture
that's going to thrive, goingforward, which is just crucial.
You know, I think acollaborative culture, I think
(33:08):
one where we're open to learningoff each other, not, you know,
shooting guns at each other'ssilos, but actually learning off
each other.
You know, I'm not sure theanswer is moving to a completely
agile world, you know, butcertainly having some of those
agile principles underneath tobring together those tribes,
(33:29):
those scrums, to work togetheracross the organization, I think
would be crucial.
And then and then outside ofthat, you know, a culture of
sharing, where you know wereally start to learn what's
working in other areas and whatcan drive forward.
I think that what it also means,though, for me, for leadership
and the skills going forward, isa much greater focus and you'll
(33:51):
notice, ali, like if I, if Istrip down the people that I've
worked with who have gone on tohave the most impactful careers.
Yeah, what is the big thingthat they're great at Right?
They're great at clarity ofthought, clarity of
communication.
They're good at understandingdata sets and been able to
articulate that and expandaround that, and that's that,
(34:14):
that skill set there.
Not only will it not go away,but those people will rise to
the top in organizations very,very quickly.
You know, no longer in AI worldwill we value stewardship.
You know your ability tonavigate.
I'm the only guy who knows howto use this database right.
Ali (34:55):
Or the people of let's face it, a decent chunk of people,
especially big entrepreneurshipand spirit of ingenuity, I think
going forward.
I think definitely it's goingto impact bringing some silos
down.
I'm already seeing it.
The world of agents, though, isgoing to be interesting.
That was going to beinteresting.
I am anticipating that at somestage, there will be some
pushback from certaindepartments and there will be
lots of talk around access toinformation and all of that.
(35:17):
I've seen, I've heard and I'veseen that talk, maybe 12 months
ago, and then it dissipatedafter a while, because then
people actually startedrealizing the value of the new
technology and there aredifferent ways to protect the
information without missing outon the opportunity of the
(35:38):
technology, because the benefitsoutweigh those in there.
So I'm definitely seeing thathappening.
I had a conversation with one ofthe guests last year and then
she's a professor at Oxford andthen she talked about the
education experience in highschool, and I still remember
(35:59):
that and made me think abouteverything else, and she said
something around that studentsnowadays we give them an A or
excellent.
That students nowadays we givethem an A or excellent, but that
excellent before the internetworld was different, excellent
from after the internet worldand now that excellent will be
different after generative AI,so the standard will be raised
(36:22):
Then.
That gives me the feeling andthe idea and the thinking that
even in the workplace,performance measures will be
different because you've gotcapability now, but an amazing
capability at your fingertips,and so maybe in the next three
(36:42):
years performance expectationswill be different because we can
do we can be more creative, wecan probably do more Like.
I know that generative AI givesme the flexibility and the
capacity to service more clients, for example, and with the
quality at the same time.
(37:03):
So that's how I'm seeing it.
But whatever shift we're goingto see although it might be
disruptive a little bit, butit's going to be a good shift.
I think I am enjoying more golfput it that way nowadays than
then then before, mainly becauseI know on your right, I think
the sentiment that I start everyday checking in with co-pilot
(37:26):
rather than going to individualapplications.
That's already happening.
There's a change in theworkflow and how we're actually
managing these things From whereyou sit.
I just want to know, maybe aquestion around in general
businesses in Australia are theystill the majority still
(37:48):
thinking about whether this isgoing to stick or not?
Ian (37:55):
Are they thinking about whether it's going to stick?
I'm not sure about that.
I think we're, and this changesrapidly.
So what I'm just about to saynow, in January 2025, is going
to date massively if somebody'slistening to this in three
months' time, yeah, yes.
(38:16):
So just want to say that,because what's changed?
Certainly the last three months,I've seen a big change both in
private and public sectororganisations.
I think where we are right now,if I look, you've probably got,
you know, you've still gotquite a large base.
(38:37):
So if I look now at ourenterprise business, I can't
give exact percentages, but avery high percentage of our
customer base right now has somesort of deployment of Microsoft
365 Copilot in their workplace,some sort of deployment of
(38:57):
Copilot Studio for their agentsenvironments or their building
applications around Azure OpenAI.
Then it's okay.
Well, what are the tiers thatwe're seeing?
Yeah, and where do we see mostof those customers?
There's still a pretty solidchunk who are putting their toe
in the water.
Maybe they've rolled it out bythe way, I'll challenge some of
(39:21):
the strategies there but maybethey've rolled it out to a few
people in IT and they've rolledit out typically to key
executives.
Yeah, to make sure that eitherthey can drum up enough
sponsorship or say that they'reon the journey just in case
somebody goes.
What are we doing about AI?
I think that's fine and look,it's good to know.
(39:44):
I think the important thing forIT getting their hands on it is
that you're comfortable withthe security, compliance and
governance, and there's nooversharing risks, et cetera, et
cetera.
So I completely get that.
I think, though, we're and I'msure you'll agree this, ali with
your own journey.
This only really comes to lightwhen you get it into users'
(40:06):
hands, and you know you reallystart seeing human creativity
take over, and so I would saywhere the bulk of our customers
are now are in this what I wouldclass as personal productivity
layer.
Yeah, where they're looking atMicrosoft 365, copilot, and you
know you look back.
Csiro have just released theirresults of the Copilotpilot
(40:28):
trial, of their Microsoft 365co-pilot trial.
You know you mentioned DTAthere, and even you may have
seen one recently with BrisbaneCatholic Education, where they
identified the personalproductivity gain of educators
saving 9.3 hours per week ofeducator time, and I think that
(40:49):
and don't get me wrong that isfantastic DTA trial.
We're finding an hour a day.
Csiro didn't get, I don't thinkgot down to an actual level of
hours, but showed a generalrecognition of productivity
there in the report, but I thinkwe're scratching the surface
there with those figures.
Yes, and that's that personalproductivity layer, where we're
(41:12):
basically using it forsummarizing first draft
summarized first draft andthings like meeting recap inside
a team, being very popular andcertainly I love it.
I use it every day.
It enables me to double andtriple book myself and still
stay across things, so I likethat.
The next stage, though, is, Ithink, where we're now seeing,
(41:34):
literally in the past, I wouldsay past three or four months
customers really go quite quick,and that is around
organizational impact.
So, taking that, assuming thatwe can get that kind of 10%
productivity gain let's say, 10to 15% productivity gain that I
mentioned before, which isfantastic, right, the
(41:56):
productivity dividend that thatenables organizations to focus
on other things in theirorganization, I think is
fantastic.
The next part, though, is howdo we look at our business
process layer and how do we lookat infusing that Microsoft 365
Copilot with agents, you know,bringing together our core
(42:17):
systems of records, our corebusiness processes, and infusing
that with generative AI?
Yeah, you know, I was justusing ours yesterday, where I
was combining data from, youknow, our customer data, from
our CRM database, with ourfinancial data, and this this
before would have been hours andhours of work.
(42:39):
In fact, hand on heart, I'm notparticularly good at VLOOKUPs
myself, but being able to dothat inside of the chat, inside
of Copilot I, and come back withjust amazing results that are
super useful, that I canliterally just copy and paste
and put into a management report, were just incredible.
That that, literally there,right there, saved me three
hours with one task, yeah, and,and so this is where I think
(43:04):
we're going to start to see this, uh, really really take off.
But without a doubt, I would say, you know, if you split between
those three tiers, we're goingto start to see this really,
really take off.
But without a doubt, I wouldsay, you know, if you split
between those three tiers, we'renow seeing.
If you would have asked me sixmonths ago, I'd say 90% of our
customers are in that, you know,tested.
I would say now we're probablylooking at maybe 20% of our
customers in that line.
They've now shifted up toproductivity, personal
(43:24):
productivity, and we're nowseeing a 10 to 20%.
I would say maybe more lookingat okay, what does this agentic
layer mean for us going forward?
Ali (43:33):
Well, I'm going to share with you, before I go to my last
question to you and I'm awareof time and thoroughly enjoying
this I'm going to share with yousome thoughts from a challenge
manager working in this spaceand living and breathing AI,
know AI.
First of all, I'm so excitedabout the agentic world.
(43:53):
I've already chosen names formy agents and I'm going to I'm
going to collect them.
Ian (43:58):
And you want to share.
Ali (44:01):
I want to, and then I am thinking also, I can have agents
and build a relationship withthem and the project will finish
and then I'll delete them.
How wonderful is that.
So I'm already seeing the storyin my head.
But one thing that I alwaystalk to people about, and
certainly with the clients Iwork with, is that it's no
longer can co-pilot togenerative AI improve my
(44:23):
productivity or not.
That argument is already done.
We've already proved it.
You do not need like.
If there's any advice I can giveto anybody, do not spend your
resources in testing whetherthat is going to make a
productivity gain or not.
It's already doing it.
You need to think about how canall of your people get hold of
this technology, how you supportthem and train them and look
(44:46):
forward to the advancement, likeI'm already thinking about how
the eugenic world is going toshape up my workflow as a
professional.
So that's one.
The second thing, for example,I work now with La Trobe
University and we've got about200 people using COVID and about
80% of them use it on a dailybasis.
(45:07):
I always say to these peopleyou're already making an impact
on the organization, becauseevery time you use CorePilot to
process a task or send adocument, the ripple effect on
the organization is alreadyhappening.
So it's not just your workflowand that's why other people will
(45:28):
actually see what Copart isdoing and say can we have a
license?
And all of these things.
So if there's any advice I cangive to anybody listening to
this podcast, stop saying isthis really real and it's going
to improve my productivity.
It does.
The only difference is thatonly competency and really
understanding of the technology,which is not as shatteringly
(45:49):
difficult, especially inMicrosoft now, is making the
experience so easy, like one ofthe changes that you guys made
recently is that whenever youlook at Microsoft Core Pilot, in
whatever setting, it's the sameexperience.
You're actually seeing the samethings.
Now, that's amazing from achange management perspective.
Now, that's an amazing from achange management perspective.
(46:22):
You're actually creating thesame consistent, cohesive
picture that whatever you lookat co-op art, it's the same
experience.
So you don't need to thinkabout it differently.
Maybe six months ago it was not, but now it's actually
wonderfully.
What's your advice to people inthe change management community
when it comes to the generativeAI and AI as a technology going
forward, does that mean that weneed to think about our
profession, not just as users,but we think forward, about our
(46:43):
customers and clients who willbe using this technology and how
we help them adopt that change.
Ian (46:48):
No, I think that's a great question and actually linked to
the comments you just made there, Ali.
In terms of the productivitygains, there is done.
What I would also say is doneas well.
There's enough evidence, Ithink, to show that Microsoft
365 Copilot derives productivityreturn.
And look, I've worked acrossfinancial services in my prior
(47:11):
role.
I work now across, obviously,all of the public sector markets
.
The reality is, for aninformation worker, a typical
information worker, 90% of whatan information worker does in a
bank is the same as what they doin government.
There's that 10% finia, whichmakes us different.
So, absolutely, you could takethe DTA report and transfer that
(47:34):
over to a financial servicesinstitution.
And there's your business case,right.
What I would do, though, that,I think, is way more, you know,
I guess, back your business case, right.
What I would do, though, that,I think, is way more.
You know.
It gets back to firstprinciples, right.
The reality about this isgenerative.
Ai is out there already.
People are using it every day.
Chatgpt is the most usedconsumer tool that has ever been
(47:56):
seen on the planet at thisstage of its release.
People you then look at mostadvanced sorry, the most adopted
applications in the world rightnow at a consumer level.
So you have ChatGPT granted.
You have Google Search, whichnow has Gemini Gemini Infusion.
People are using that everysingle day.
(48:17):
You open up WhatsApp, it's gotAI infusion in there.
Facebook, Instagram, et cetera,et cetera.
People are using this every dayand they're getting used to it.
Don't be the person that, whenthey come into work, go, oh no,
you can't use that or we'regoing to shut it down, right.
So the answer is you just needa solution that is secure, that
you trust within your ownenvironment, that is going to
(48:39):
give generative AI capabilityand, by the way, that's what
we've just done with you mayhave seen with Microsoft 365
Copilot Chats, which we're nowmaking available to every Entra,
everybody with a work ID andEntra ID.
So then, taking that forward tothe change management side, and
I think it's a reallyinteresting point of change
management, Ali, and you knowyou've been again, you're way
(49:00):
more in this space than I am dayto day, but I look at the role
really of the change manager tomove now from chief teaching
officer to chief excitementofficer, and I'll give you an
example.
Actually, some of Latrobe'sstudents may have been there.
I was in Sydney recently and wehad a room full of university
(49:22):
students and we asked them aquestion and we said how many
people use generative AI everyday Maybe chat GPTs and others
every day?
Everybody put their hand up.
How many of you pay for chatGPTs premium version out of your
own back pocket?
These are students, universitystudents.
This is $30 per user per monthin the US.
(49:44):
I believe Seventy-five percentof the room put their hand up.
By the way, they've clearly gota lot more money than I did
when I was a student.
I can't remember having $30 amonth available at the end of
the month, and it just showsthis is now a staple diet of a
modern worker.
You know these are peoplecoming into the workforce in the
(50:05):
next year or two, right, thatare going to be expecting this
so and are fluent already.
Yeah, so I think, starting fromthat premise that you know I
don't know if you've seen ourwork lab details and maybe we
can post in the chat after thisis we do something called the
Work Trend Index, and the WorkTrend Index said that 75% of
(50:26):
people surveyed worldwide andthis is thousands of people
worldwide 75% of people usegenerative AI tools in work
today and 78% of those tools arenot IT-sanctioned, are not
corporate-sanctioned.
So this space is done.
So there is what I would saywith it is and look, hopefully
(50:47):
the answer is Microsoft 365Copilot or one of our Copilots
at Microsoft, which areobviously enterprise-grade and
secure and de-risk theseenvironments.
But if it's not ours, then thereality is, for organizations,
the constant risk of doingnothing right now, or going slow
, is way more than the cost ofdoing something or moving fast
(51:10):
and taking advantage of this newtechnology.
So, to go back to the changemanagement journey, the change
management journey for me is,you know again, moving away from
hey, it's a manual and I needto teach you on this manual.
You know the old PBX days orwhatever towards a much more
creating a vibrant environmentfor change in an organization.
(51:33):
You know, and you've done afantastic job of this.
You know you've built.
You know you've built yourchampion communities.
You've created forums to share.
You've.
You know we do it.
I don't think we've ever done,side by side with our customers,
so many excitement days.
And you know, say, in publicsector, right now we have our
co-parlor club where, you know,through Engage, we've connected
(51:56):
hundreds of public sector usersacross Australia and New Zealand
to collaborate with each otherand to crowdsource ideas on how
to make each other moreproductive.
So I think this is, you know.
To me, this is what it's allabout now is it's, you know,
chief excitement officer.
For me is the role of a changemanager going forward.
Ali (52:18):
I'm not changing my title, but I like where you are you
don't?
Like that one.
Ian (52:25):
It's a CEO title, so you know maybe.
Ali (52:27):
I'm going to go to my bosses and say my role is chief
excitement officer and Iprobably need to ask Corpala to
come up with alternative titlesfor me.
Ian (52:38):
Well, I'm in sales, not marketing.
Ali (52:41):
Yes, yes, I can tell, but look, I, I take, I take your
point around.
For me, the challenge manageris, first of all, they need to
be super users.
Um, and that's the only way toknow this challenge is actually
to embrace it heavily, heavily,and, for example, I've proved it
through through experimentswith the change managers I work
(53:04):
with it saves us about 30%.
This is even, I'm pretty sureyou know, with time and
competency it will be even more.
And so the questions willalways be to organizations when
people will get more time, howdo we find ways to give them
more meaningful work?
That will be really the mainquestion for organizations,
(53:26):
because giving people meaningfulwork is a hard thing.
But that's for another day andanother discussion, ian, with
you.
Ian (53:36):
Well, I think the big thing with that, Ali, is to really
focus, and this is where, youknow, a lot of discussions
around our jobs are going to belost, et cetera, et cetera.
You know, to me it's the wrongconversation for people to have.
And generative AI isn't abouthow to get people to do more
(53:58):
work.
It's how do we elevate humansto do better work, more
impactful work and, as I said,like, look, you're in higher
education.
See the educators in highereducation today and in K-12
massively.
What's the commonality theyhave with doctors, nurses,
emergency services right now?
And the thing they have incommon is they're pretty much
(54:21):
across the board.
A key corporate strategy withall of them right now is how do
we take the pressure off them,how do we reduce their workload?
How do we make this a moreattractive place to work?
How do we elevate their purpose?
And this is the opportunity nowwith generative AI, not the
kind of scare mongering sideswhere it's going to cost
(54:42):
everybody's jobs.
The reality is the Westernworld right now is seeing
unemployment levels that havebeen the lowest in generations.
This is about how do we elevate, how do we become?
You know, take government,education and private
organizations to a wholedifferent level of
transformation and evolutiongoing forward.
Ali (55:03):
Fantastic.
I am grateful for your timetoday, ian.
This has been a reallyenlightening conversation for me
.
What we would like them toreally learn about from this
episode is that embrace thetechnology.
It's not going to harm you, andMicrosoft 365 Core Pilot is
actually at the vanguard.
Thank you, first of all, toMicrosoft for persevering and
(55:26):
not missing out on theopportunity, like they did with
the iPhone.
Your CEO took charge and Ireally loved him and I follow
him all the time and I love whatyou guys do.
Maybe next time, not toodistant in the future, I'll get
you back again, ian, and then wecover another aspect, or maybe
(55:48):
the journey so far, because thisconversation probably will be
old in about three months andthat's right.
Yes, how would people connectwith you, ian?
Ian (55:59):
Yes, so I'm on.
Ali (56:00):
LinkedIn.
Ian (56:01):
Best way to connect with me and, yeah, maybe we can you
know when we post.
We can share my link there, soplease feel free to reach out at
any time.
Ali (56:11):
Thank you so much.
Thank you again for joining meat the Inner Game of Change
podcast, ian.
I'm grateful for your time.
Until next time, stay well andstay safe.
Thank you, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening.
If you found this episodevaluable, remember to subscribe
(56:31):
to stay updated on upcomingepisodes.
Your support is trulyappreciated and by sharing this
podcast with your colleagues,friends and fellow change
practitioners, and by sharingthis podcast with your
colleagues, friends and fellowchange practitioners, it can
help me reach even moreindividuals and professionals
who can benefit from thesediscussions.
Remember, and in my opinion,change is an enduring force and
(56:52):
you will only have a measure ofcertainty and control when you
embrace it.
Until next time, thank you forbeing part of the Inner Game of
Change community.
I am Ali Juma, and this of theInner Game of Change community.
I am Ali Jammah, and this isthe Inner Game of Change podcast
.
Host
Ali Juma
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