April 18, 2025 • 56 mins
Welcome to The Inner Game of Change, the podcast that explores the evolving landscape of change management, leadership, and transformation.
In today’s episode, I’m thrilled to be joined by Susan Zhang, a creative technologist, author, and global thought leader. From her beginnings in China to her journey as an international student in Australia, Susan has embraced the discomfort of change to unlock personal and professional growth.
We dive deep into topics like the power of stepping outside your comfort zone, the role of ambition in driving change, and how embracing failure can lead to unexpected growth. Susan shares her unique perspective on leadership, drawing from her experiences at Google and her bold decisions to pivot in her career.
If you're navigating a time of uncertainty or change, this conversation offers powerful insights on how to move forward with confidence, embrace new opportunities, and transform challenges into growth.
I am grateful to have Susan chatting with me today.
Susan's Book
Life Outside My Comfort Zone: Hup draak!
About Susan
024 Awarded Ph.D. at UOW with Examimers' Commendation for Outstanding Thesis
2022 Australian Ambassador's Award for Women in Leadership Judges' commendation
2021 UOW Young Alumni Award
2019 Young Australia China Alumni of the Year Award - Australian Embassy in China
2019 Book release on Amazon: http://bit.ly/susanfirstbook
From an international student to a global tech leader, from a career at Google UK to TikTok in China, from an introvert to a TEDx speaker, Dr Susan Zhang continues to push boundaries and explore outside her comfort zone.
Dr Zhang is recognised as a high-energy business leader and technology serial entrepreneur. She effectively brings a combination of technical prowess and commercial acumen in her leadership positions at Google, later for ByteDance (TikTok), Amazon and Canva where her career has taken her to Australia, China and the United Kingdom. Currently, she is the Head of Creative and EdTech, Digital Trade for the British Government based in Sydney.
Dr Zhang is a published author, a TEDx Speaker and a mentor for young entrepreneurs. Dr Zhang believes her research can play a key part in harnessing the capabilities of AI-driven education influencers at the intersection of e-learning technology and pedagogy Digitalisation.
Contact Susan
Dr Susan’s Profile
Websites
- xiaochenzhang.com (Personal)
- amazon.com.au/Life-Outside-My-Comfort-Zone/dp/1794103422/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=life+outside+my+comfort+zone&qid=1606083586&sr=8-1 (Portfolio)
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Ali Juma
@The Inner Game of Change podcast
Follow me on LinkedIn
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Susan (00:00):
I remember my farewell email from Google on my last day
.
I wrote joining Google make mestrong, leaving Google make me
stronger.
I know it's kind of naive whenyou were young you write that
way, but still I feel likethat's true.
Every different experiencetaught me different things,
every different type of work.
(00:22):
I learned it in a hard way.
As you mentioned, I used to be asoftware engineer and then I
was leading the global publicpolicy for TikTok.
I never even learned about itand I learned it at the job.
I learned it from the peoplewho believe and trust me and
even followed me changing fromone team to another, just
because they feel like they'vebeen seen in the team and seen
(00:44):
their potential.
And they feel like they havebeen seen in the team and seen
their potential and they feellike they have career
progression.
If they in my team and that'sall inspired me and feel like,
oh, maybe I'm a little bit, I'mgood at leadership in a
different way, even though I'mnot the strongest leader in the
room, but I'm probably mostsupportive, caring and be able
to support them, navigate someof the hardship, be able to
(01:06):
endure when things not doingwell instead of just all the
glorious things and we celebrateoften.
We have a really strong teamculture because of that and we
made lifelong friends.
Ali (01:34):
Welcome to the Inner Game of Change, the podcast that
explores the evolving landscapeof change management, leadership
and transformation.
I am your host, ali Juma.
In today's episode, I amthrilled to be joined by Susan
Zhang, a creative technologist,author and a global thought
leader.
From her beginnings in China toher journey as an international
student here in Australia,susan has embraced the
(01:54):
discomfort of change to unlockpersonal and professional growth
.
We dive deep into topics likethe power of stepping outside
your comfort zone, the role ofambition in driving change and
how embracing failure can leadto unexpected growth.
Susan shares her uniqueperspective on leadership,
drawing from her experiences atGoogle and her bold decisions to
(02:17):
pivot in her career.
If you are navigating a time ofuncertainty or change, this
conversation offers powerfulinsights on how to move forward
with confidence, embracing newopportunities and transform
challenges into growth.
I am grateful to have Susanchatting with me today.
Well, susan, thank you so muchfor your time today and thank
(02:40):
you for joining me in the innergame of change podcast.
Thank you for your time todayand thank you for joining me in
the Inner Game of Change podcast.
Susan (02:44):
Thank you for having me.
Ali (02:46):
How large your heart is, how large the stage will be.
That is the Chinese proverb.
Talk to me about that, yeah itis.
Susan (02:55):
Yeah, that's what my parents taught me when I was
young.
In Chinese it's saying你的心有多大舞台就有多大。 so my parents are
all working in performing arts.
My dad is a performer forPeking Opera.
My mom is a professionalviolinist.
They're always on the stage,but you know, for one minute on
(03:16):
the stage you have to preparefor 10 years.
So they told me from the smallstage they played in their
province.
They go to city, they go tostate, they go to national.
So I followed their journey andthat motto followed me in my
heart and planned to see it aswell.
Ali (03:36):
Talk to me about the sense of stage.
Has that changed over time?
Susan (03:42):
I think so.
You know, from a small town inChina, I never see an ocean
before I turned 18.
And then all of a sudden Iboard a flight.
I fly to Australia to study asan international student.
I not only just step outsidethe province the stage of my
comfort zone and then the stageof my comfort zone and then
(04:05):
cross the ocean, cross thousandsof miles to a place where not
many people speak Mandarin andyou have to speak English, so
it's a total stage change.
That is crazy, but it's alsofun and very thrill when looking
back.
Ali (04:19):
Let's touch on that concept of comfort zone.
What does it mean to you?
I mean um, what does evencomfort mean?
Susan (04:29):
comfort.
I feel like this is probably alittle bit extreme.
Um, comfort feels like a slowdying, like you probably sit
somewhere, um comfortable in thewarm water.
It's like the frog in the pan,right when the, when the
temperature going up, you don'treally feel it until it's 90
degree, 100.
And then you're dead.
(04:50):
So that's how I feel, likecomfort.
You don't feel the threat, youdon't feel you're afraid, you
don't see what's coming.
You kind of lost the vision.
You kind of lost your what doyou call it competitive edge.
You don't know what's straightout there, but it could be
dangerous.
So that's comfort to me.
(05:13):
And what appeals to you in thediscomfort zone.
This comfort zone is when I'min someone else's comfort zone.
For example, when I speak toyou, you are the mastermind of
change management For me.
I probably, you know, know, notstudy this area or, um, not so
experienced as I'm in yourcomfort zone, in your strength
area.
So when, when I'm in myweakness area in someone's
(05:33):
strength, that's when I feellike I'm outside the comfort
zone.
But it's also the place whereyou can learn the most from the
people who are the expert oftheir comfort zone.
Ali (05:44):
So that is fun and there's a lot of learning in this
comfort zone.
Obviously, you learn aboutsomething, but you also learn
about yourself.
I'm really keen about thatnotion of before we start
recording.
I was just sharing my storywith you and I always think that
(06:05):
we do a lot of internalprocessing so we can get the
learning from the outside world.
I mean, talk to me about that.
Susan (06:10):
Yeah, I feel like I can smell the change.
It's like someone can smell thegood food is coming.
I think the first thing come tomind is always very natural you
will ask am I ready?
So right?
Um, it doesn't matter, you're asuperman or you are everyday
people.
You will ask yourself am Iready?
What I missed, what I will loss?
(06:32):
So it's a very common set ofquestion.
But what is different is youeither stay in that mood, panic,
or stuck there, or you'retrying to think creatively or
leverage some of the resourcefriend, mentor and create
something to bridging that gap,become a problem solver.
So that's kind of differentiate, the different mindset you have
(06:54):
for for someone to staycomfortable in current state or
someone very open for criticism,for feedback, for the
opportunity to change or embracethe risk.
So that's how I look at it.
Ali (07:08):
Okay, I described myself at some stage as a restless man
restless in the sense that andmy parents were not really happy
with this notion that I alwaysfelt that surely there's
something more than waking upevery day doing the same thing
and then I go back to sleep.
You know, at the end of the day, how restless are you.
Susan (07:31):
Well, I don't craving for change Like if there's no need
to do so.
We are not wise to just for thesake of change, but when it's
necessary, when you can createoptions, when there's better
options, when there is makesense in your current life stage
, for your purpose, for yourgoal or for your current
(07:54):
situation, and then it isnecessary to change.
So I would say I'm happy to sitthere to read a book for a
couple of hours, but if I smellthe change I won't sit around.
And then that's the rest list.
To start.
I will start to prepare, make alist, start to Google or ask
(08:14):
the chat GPT now and start tosay to visualize how the change
will look like if I do this, ifI do that.
And then you know the defaultis always a plan B, which is
nothing happens.
Ali (08:29):
Which is nothing happens.
Yeah, well, I mean that for alot of people probably that is a
plan A.
When you say you smell a change, meaning the definition of
change here is an opportunityfor something better.
Is that the definition of it?
Susan (08:45):
Sometimes it can be better.
I mean, for example, if youhave to do a house moving, you
have to buy all the boxes.
That's all the investment.
First right, you have to spendyour weekend searching for a
property and that property couldbe more expensive, could be at
a worse location, could be allsorts of things.
Sometimes it's not overallbetter, but then if you think
(09:09):
another way, I can reorganize mythings, I can throw away or
donate things I don't need.
I can detox from the currentlife.
I can change the city, changethe scenery, the upper side.
Sometimes it is exciting.
Even though you do have sunkcosts, you do have friction.
I mean, life itself is neverperfect.
(09:31):
There's always a friction, aslong as it doesn't hurt, doesn't
hurt your health, doesn't hurttoo much financially.
I would tend to look at thebrighter side of the things and
thinking about the upperpotential.
Ali (09:47):
Susan, I've had the pleasure of listening to you
multiple times in the pasttalking.
You always mention somethingwhich is really I mean, I've
reflected on that and I stoppedand I thought at some stage I'm
going to ask you about it.
You always say you are 100%made in China.
You always say you are 100%made in China.
(10:07):
What's the emotion behind thisstatement?
Susan (10:11):
Yeah, it is true, I think , as an international student,
I'm terrified to introducemyself.
I think that's how it started.
And when my English is notperfect, the less I speak, the
less problem you can find frommy english.
The shorter sentence is better.
You look at your close labor.
It just struck me to say 100made in china.
(10:32):
I'm like you know what.
That's also me.
Um, I'm 100 content, I'mworshipful, I'm go with any
blind I you know, throw me in adryer, I'll survive the
toughness.
Where come from?
What I'm proud of, my origin,what I look like, what I
represent don't make sense.
100% made in China.
Ali (10:54):
So that's how it started and it's always become my
identity the depth of yourrelationship to your culture and
your ethnicity and your parentsand family, and I really like
that.
I mean every time you mentionthat and although you say it in
(11:17):
your own wonderful way of makingit really simple, but it's
certainly deeper, in my opinion.
Anyway, from China to Australia, from an international student
to a global knowledge worker,from a software engineer okay to
a creative technologist, toGoogle, you were an introvert,
(11:41):
but now you're talking at TEDxand apparently you've been to
the Burning man.
The hell are you doing there?
And this is why it prompted meto think God, I'm talking to a
restless person in here, but Ithink sometimes it comes across
that your life so far themajority of it is not quite by
(12:06):
design.
Or am I wrong with this?
Susan (12:10):
I think you're right.
I came from a traditionalfamily in China.
By design, I should marry whenI'm fresh out of the college,
when I'm 22.
I should have two kids before Ican see the end of it.
And that's exactly not what Iwanted.
(12:37):
That's why I boarded the flightand study as an international
student.
I think a majority of students.
They came here because theparents selected school.
They talked to differentrecruitment agency.
The parents have planned it all.
I did the opposite way.
I did my English test, I got myadmission paper, I got my offer
(12:58):
.
The only thing I need is themoney to buy the flight ticket.
And that's the time I tell myparents and say, hey, this is
your lovely kite you're flying,which is myself.
And here is the scissors in myhand and I'm kind of like
cutting myself loose, but I'mstill keeping in that, keeping
that tie.
But that's how I just started,that's how I see.
(13:21):
What's the upbringing and whatwired me inside of me is kind of
different from people and Ihave this small voice or small
personality inside of me andjust anxious to see the world so
similar to burning man everbeen there and these people say
(13:41):
it's dangerous, it's also fun,it's one of the lifetime
experience.
A google founder.
They went there.
You know the first googledoodle.
Um, every day change right.
It started because of theburning mind.
That's the first doodle Googleever have, because Sergey and
Larry went there and part of thecompany culture of free lunch
(14:01):
is coming from the Burning manculture, the giving and not
expecting something return.
So I just enjoyed and curious,like where's the Google culture
coming from Burning man?
I want to go there andexperience myself and a product.
After I experience, I quitgoogle.
It's so comfortable.
So everything start to, youknow, like a fly well, and start
to spin from there and just oneafter another and get to where
(14:25):
I am now we're gonna come backto this concept of the flywheel.
Ali (14:30):
You've gotten your wheel, you've got in your journey a lot
of pivots, and I'm just curious, susan, when we look at an
opportunity or we look at theunknown for us, how do you
personally recognize whetherit's actually something that you
need to pivot for, or is itjust a noise?
Susan (14:51):
At some point in my life, I think, when I, for example,
when I left, left china, I canonly bring two suitcase of
things and at that time you know, from a family don't have a lot
of money my parents pack a ricecooker and toilet paper 20
rolls and you open the ricecooker, there's one row sitting
inside.
That's how much things you said, the, how much they care about
(15:15):
your life, what they worry themost and what you can pack with
your life, and that's what Ibring to Australia.
And then I realize the physicalthings.
That's how much limit you canbring in the physical size of a
cage, of a suitcase or paper orany physical form, suitcase or
(15:38):
on paper or on any physical form.
But experience you bring in yourmind, in your photograph, in
your audio, in your voicemail,that's, that's invaluable and
you can carry that forever inyour life and that's become your
legacy, your your life of lovewhen you talk to your friends
later on or when you're lookingat a photograph 10 years ago.
So I feel like from that pointon I will only collect
(16:02):
experience rather than anyphysical goods, because at the
end of the day we're notbringing anything um when you
are leaving this world.
So that's become kind of thefoundation of the change when
I'm looking at anything.
If I'm collecting a newexperience, well, I go for it.
Ali (16:20):
I like that.
And I like I mean experiencesare what really we can enjoy and
we can share.
Everything else is just trivialif you actually think about it.
You described yourself as anintrovert before.
Are you still an introvert?
Susan (16:36):
Yeah, I've done my MIT MRBI the test before.
Ali (16:40):
The MBTI yeah.
Susan (16:42):
Yeah, mbti, I'm still, yeah, I'm still.
Ali (16:45):
People are hard to change.
You know it.
People are hard to change.
And how does this introvertoperate in a public arena?
What goes internally inside ofyou to actually help you be the
person on a stage?
Susan (17:04):
Yeah, I think being an introvert and being the quiet or
being the loudest compared withextrovert is two different
things.
Even though I can be anintrovert, I can use written
form.
I used to write somethingcalled Friday's 3.30 report to
(17:25):
all my team and share some ofthe conference I went to.
I went to, for example, graceHopper conference in US in 2016,
and I shared 57 slides of thetrip report to my team of the
things I learned.
I met Jeff Dean of Google Brand.
At that time.
I met a different company andwhat is their new selling point
(17:45):
or what's their new product?
All of the things.
And people used to joke youremails reads like a VP reports.
Even if it's my sick email,like all email, they took a lot
of interest because I make it sofun.
Then people start to rememberme.
I think that's calledvisibility.
Even though my English is notthat good, I can write it.
(18:06):
I can use a form, I'm good atit, I'm putting the humor and
people will still know about me.
So I think that's a very subtlepower of influence.
I'm definitely not the loudestin the room, but I can be the
kindest, I can be the mostinteresting.
I can be the most memorableperson in other form.
So that's kind of like I foundmy niche and people start to
(18:30):
remember it and we should notconfuse quietness with
introversion.
Ali (18:35):
Anyway, yeah, an introvert or extrovert majority of us
actually are.
Different things at differenttimes.
Yeah, yeah, outside work, I amquiet in my own corner.
That's why I took up running,because it's a very lonely thing
where I can think, even at thegym.
Yeah, I'm not one of thosepeople where I can think even at
(18:55):
the gym.
Yeah, I'm not one of thosepeople that will have a chat at
the gym.
I am there, focused onsomething.
But the way we get our energyfrom is around this internal
processing, and so I'm alwaysinterested in how what people
actually go through internallybefore an event.
(19:20):
And so you did mention the wordinfluence.
You do use a lot of comicstatements in there.
Is that it's like almost likeyou?
That is your personality andyou wanted to embrace it.
And the more we show ofourselves on a stage it's kind
(19:40):
of funny because the more theauthentic the message comes
across.
Is that who you are in reallife?
Susan (19:49):
Yeah, I found it's hard to fake.
People say fake it until youget it.
I found it's very hard to fakeyou are powerful, you have a
power.
Uh, posture.
My english is not perfect.
Everyone can spot grammarmistake if I speak more than
three sentence.
Um, I just thought it's moreeasy, breathable and more fun
(20:11):
just to be myself.
I get a lot of feedback afterdifferent conference and people
come just to be myself.
I get a lot of feedback afterdifferent conferences and people
come talk to me and say becauseI said which example and it
struck them and it stays withthem forever.
And then I gradually build somany different relationships
from all the different audiencespeakers.
We keep in touch, we swap notes, I feel like be humble and
(20:34):
listen to everyone's story.
I end up learning more thanwhat I speak on the panel of
different conference.
I think the personal connectionas a butterfly effect
afterwards is more nurturing andrewarding.
And I also think life is hardenough.
Just looking at last night wakeup one o'clock, three o'clock,
(20:55):
five o'clock to feeding a baby.
No one's going to be happyabout it, but what you can do, I
can just maybe laugh about ittrying to get a massage and
think, ok, I can do it.
All the moms can do it.
I can try to talk to someone.
Looking at the brighter side.
I have a healthy baby, what Ican ask him for more.
So, brighter side, I have ahealthy baby, what I can ask him
(21:17):
for more.
So you just have to.
You can make your life harder.
You can decide to make it alittle bit more entertaining,
lighter, and have somethinglooking forward to moving on
right.
I know the face will be passedby.
You told me kids are growingreally fast.
They are in tiktok age.
You never wish for them to growas fast.
So I listen to your advice.
I feel like you know what.
(21:38):
I'm probably just enjoying it.
At the moment I can still holdthis human being in my arms
before they push you away.
Ali (21:45):
So that's kind of become who I am, and you seem to create
meaning around all of yourexperiences.
I want to shift gear, butbefore I do that, I want to ask
you was there a time that youstuffed up big time and then you
thought you know, that wasrubbish and that's cool?
(22:07):
I will learn from this and I'mgoing to have to move on.
Susan (22:12):
I have a lot of moments like that.
I think people don't realize it.
You know, for example, PhD issuch a lonely and hard journey.
Ali (22:23):
Sorry, that is exactly why I'm asking the question is
because what we see we see theSusan who is just happy and
accomplished and you know it'sgot everything in balance but
what they don't see is whathappens and the struggle and the
fight and the thinking and thestuff that, the real stuff, that
(22:44):
happens behind the scenes.
Susan (22:46):
Exactly, there's two.
People said.
My husband is seeing me threeo'clock laying on the ground.
I just dragged my hair and he'sjust like crying just as much
as my baby.
The other one is my therapist,right.
But at the same time we have tounderstand people have basic
dignity and for me to get myenergy, like you mentioned in
(23:09):
the beginning, talking to people, learning from them, for me is
equivalent to a mother's groupright.
So people get energy back at adifferent form.
I found myself being useful.
Make me happy.
I feel like I'm still useful.
I still have this value tobring to my family, to the
society.
(23:29):
Make myself have somethinglooking forward to make myself
pick me up.
Pick myself up and saying thisis this hardship worth enduring?
But it doesn't mean I don'tsuffer.
I know I look very slim, happy,but of course people can't see
the two caesarean 10 centimeterscar swallowing beneath the
(23:55):
clothes.
Just because that looks nicewith a dress doesn't mean I
didn't suffer.
But I don't want to give peoplefalse message.
I also tell them how much timeI spend on different things, how
much support.
I always mention my husbandlooking after the two kids.
Well, I can do multiple thingsjust because I have a really
fantastic support system.
(24:17):
Without that, I can't do any ofthem and I yeah.
So I think that's the realitythere's.
You can only see the gloriousside on the surface on social
media, because differentplatform created differently to
offer different facelets.
But in the meantime, yeah, Iendure all the hardship, just as
(24:41):
everybody else.
Ali (24:43):
I was sharing this little story with a friend of mine
saying and please, this is notan advice to people you know
listening to this.
But I was saying if I am notsore from the gym, I don't feel
good, and that constant sorenessis a good indicator for me that
(25:04):
I am, you know, on track, thatI am contributing, that I'm
looking after my, my fitness andmy body.
What do you think of thisstatement?
Susan (25:15):
I like it because you know your limit right.
So everyone has a differentthreshold of pain of things you
can take on and there's nojudgment.
You can work on one thing andwork on it really well.
That's the strength Someone cando multitasking and enjoying
(25:36):
different things.
That's their choice.
So I think you know your limitand you are very persistent.
You have different attributes.
You will be good at certaindifferent things.
So I think that's kind ofdiverse bringing to the team
right.
Otherwise no one builds thesame and no one fit in all,
(25:56):
especially now you knoweveryone's the job force is all
different with all the toolsavailable and everyone is
different.
And then you know, bring thebest things out of everyone is
more important than judging iton the same cover.
Ali (26:12):
I want to ask you something that I always think about and
I've got something that I needto act on.
There's always those two forcesbetween a fear of failure, but
I'm too damn curious about it.
So those two forces in therehappening at the same time, I
(26:34):
think the difference betweenmovement forward or staying the
same is which one is going towin at the end of the day.
Talk to me about how you managethose two forces in there.
Susan (26:48):
I think I definitely learned that in a corporate
world.
Someone said you know, you haveto be brave enough to suck at
something new.
I think in the corporate world,especially in startup, you
afford to fail and fail fast.
That's a startup culture,because that's how you learn.
But obviously it's differentwhen you in a life situation or
(27:11):
you work a different agency.
You have so much, um at cost.
You can't make that decision soeasily.
So that's what I feel like.
I can be responsible for my ownlife.
Then I'm happy to take my ownlife as an experiment if I'm not
hurting anyone else, right,because you can't control the
(27:32):
environment, you can't controlothers.
But I can be responsible for mylife and I'm happy to sign up
my life for a roller coaster, um, as long as I know the
tournament condition, I know allthe things I may be encounter
or maybe not, but that is myrisk appetite and I'm happy to
take it and the consequences togo with it.
(27:52):
Um, and I feel like, enjoy everymoment, even though you are
vomiting, even though you arestruggling, when you're looking
back you are just laughing atall those funny photos, as long
as it's not life critical, right.
So I think back to where Istarted.
It's all part of the lifeexperience.
It's all the up and down, makesup looks really fun and makes
(28:14):
it down really miserable, andthat's that's the quality of the
life.
That's your storyline and youwant it to be vivid, interesting
and have something to laughabout.
When we reach 100 years old,that will be fun and we can do a
podcast when we are 100 yearsold.
Ali (28:32):
That will be fun.
Yes, Hopefully I'll be able tosurvive that long.
Of course you will.
I've always noticed, from myreading and observation and
talking to a lot of guests,successful people always have
sort of rituals and habits thatthey usually follow to actually
(28:53):
help them stay grounded.
When you know, especiallyduring change times or
transition times or tough times,Do you have any rituals or
habits?
Susan (29:08):
I like journal.
The first part of the journalbecomes the book.
But I like to just write downmy thinking, percepts, not just
a to-do list, but sometimes Icall it the life balance sheet.
Even though it's never balancedout, I just write out what is
almost like a SWOT analysis, butwithout a price tag.
(29:30):
I guess you write what is athreat, what is an opportunity
and then what is a challenge.
I really love the opportunityside, so my eyes are always wide
open when I see the opportunity.
And then my husband will remindme the potential, the loss and
and and the risk.
So I guess the balance sheet Ialso balance out with my partner
(29:52):
and how we balance the risk,how we look at life differently
and balance out the life itself.
So yeah, life balance sheet,that's what I normally do.
Whenever there's a new changecoming, I'll, you know, draw a
diagonal and then look at whatis X, what is Y, what is upper
(30:12):
potential and what we could lost, and then thinking about it.
So I won't take any of the allof the change right, just some
of them from that analysis.
So that's the ritual I do everytime before the change.
Ali (30:26):
I like it and this is your anchor basically to keep you
centered, because part of oursuccess sometimes is actually
saying no to new things.
Susan (30:38):
I do.
Sometimes I do say no to someof the change because it doesn't
make sense.
Sometimes it is exciting butit's not the right time to do
the right thing.
So you still have to keeplogical.
Not all the change are right.
Not all the lost can't berecovered.
So it's very important, like youmentioned something, what we
(31:01):
can learn from it, what we canexperience and the upper side
potential.
But never take a change lightlybecause the consequences are
also high.
So you still have to use yourpersonal experience, your
judgment, ask some of yourmentors.
Sometimes I tend to put myselfas a third perspective and put
my small person visually out ofthe thing and say, if I'm Ali or
(31:26):
I don't know if I'm someoneelse what this person will do.
And then if I know Ali reallywell, know you really well, I'll
say, like you know, ali is astrong force of pivot.
He will think this change isfantastic, but from his
experience it's not necessary,right?
So if I put myself outside thatcontext and just do that
(31:49):
exercise, you actually will knowhalf of your answer by doing
that.
Ali (31:54):
And even this exercise, susan, is very sophisticated and
very intelligent.
It's not easy to put yourselfin somebody else's way of
thinking.
However, as you mentioned, ifyou like somebody else's way of
thinking, it might be a goodidea to actually.
The whole idea of asking thisquestion in a different way is
(32:16):
so you step out of your ownbiases and look at it from a
different perspective.
Susan (32:21):
Yeah, definitely.
I sometimes just ask youbecause you're a mastermind of
change.
I'll say what I will do.
Ali (32:30):
I want to shift gear and talk about your book.
I often think that people writebooks and, by the way, I've
been thinking about writing acouple of books for years now,
but I know at some stage thatit'll happen.
I think it's just a matter oftiming and maturity.
When people write a book,there's a lot of pain that goes
(32:51):
with it.
There's a lot of expectations,a lot of editing.
How was that for you?
Susan (32:57):
Well, I think my editor went through more pain than what
we can imagine.
Thinking about my English.
I feel sorry for my editor whatthey've been through.
I think I like reading andwriting.
I grew up in the environment oflibrary reading and writing.
(33:19):
I grew up in the environment oflibrary.
I remember when my mom was alibrarian for the 30 years in
the state library in China overa hundred years history of the
state library I always run tothe room to read a new book and
smell it and that make my nose,the tip of my nose, black
because of the ink at that time.
You know it's not not asquality paper and before I read
a lot of the script before I canrecognize all the characters.
(33:40):
Whichever book smells the best,I pick up that one.
So that's kind of the naturalinstinct of the books.
I love the cover design.
I love the story and thedifferent world folded away
inside those simple pages.
And that idea came in 2019 whenCOVID hit and we are at home
(34:02):
and I have all these thoughtsgoing on in my brain and that's
become a venue for me to pourinto it and I call it life
outside my comfort zone.
Follow a Dutch saying go drugin Dutch, my colleague, my
google colleague, told me meansgo dragon go.
But if you use google translateit's actually say go to the
(34:24):
dungeon.
so I hope people using, I hopethe dutch people know it and
don't google translate it Istill trust my google colleague
for the name, and including inthat book 12 chapters nine in
chinese and nine english andthree in chinese I kind of push
the reader outside their comfortzone to learn chinese.
(34:45):
It's fun, right?
It's my first debut of the bookand I fortunate enough to
launch it with talks at googlein uk and a couple of different
book events in china, austAustralia and in the US and meet
some of the readers and readtheir feedback.
(35:05):
I still want to go to Amazon toread all the different feedback
from the first book, eventhough it's quite embarrassing
to still look at the English.
That's why my second book istotally in Chinese.
Back into my comfort zone.
Ali (35:18):
What would your second book be about?
Susan (35:22):
Second book will be a more academic book.
It's AI Economy.
It will be published by one ofthe largest publishers in China,
called China Business PublisherGroup, and it very much concent
concentrate off my research,knowledge economy, attention
economy, smart education and, inthe whole backdrop of the
(35:47):
industrial revolution, forPonderio, influencer phenomena
and all things related to AI,and it should be coming out
towards end of this year, I hope.
Ali (36:01):
Well, I cannot read in Chinese, so at some stage I hope
that is going to be translatedinto something that I can
actually read.
Susan (36:11):
You can learn Mandarin from Duolingo you can download
today and just step outside yourcomfort zone and embrace the
change.
Ali (36:18):
I will take you up on that.
Yeah, definitely I want to askyou about and congratulations
for your first book andcongratulations in advance for
your second book.
I think, especially in the ageof AI now we need voices like
yours to keep us grounded ofwhat this technology can
(36:39):
actually help us with.
I'm certainly very optimisticin that particular field.
I'm always curious.
You know what people becomeafter all of these live
experiences.
Titles change, you know, rolesevolve, yet there's always that
(37:00):
question who am I becomingthrough this?
Who are you becoming?
Susan (37:06):
Who am I becoming?
I used to tell my team how Ilead is who I am.
In that sense, character ishard to change.
I told you in the verybeginning I'm still made in
China and still a product ofChina.
I think I'll stay in thatidentity for as long as I am.
But the person I became is nolonger the very shy
(37:31):
international student girlsitting at a corner of the
classroom.
This person be able to raiseraise up my hand and ask the
first question in the boardmeeting.
I think that's a change.
I no longer say yes to all thethings I'm not supposed to take
on.
(37:51):
I be able to stay calm whenthere's confrontation before I
will be stressed and worried andfeel like I did everything
wrong, which is never true.
Um, I think I changed to becometrust, my instinct and
knowledge a little bit more than15 years ago as an
(38:14):
international student, because Ilearned so much and have so
much help from all the differentmentors and have people who
believe in me.
Yeah, so I think that's that'swho I am now and laugh a little
bit more from all the hardship.
After all the good cry, there'salways a good laugh too.
Ali (38:36):
Always, yes, always, always , yes, always.
I want to share a story withyou that I've taken up running
marathons in 2018.
And four years before that, Iasked myself a question who
would I want to be when I turn50?
What would my 50s look like?
(38:57):
And according to that question,or sobering question, I was
able to plan for 2018 to do myfirst marathon.
But I did it big way.
I did the ultra marathon, theMoroccan Desert, which was a
marathon.
(39:18):
This apps is one of the famousones.
Yeah, six days, six marathonsin a 42 degree desert and you
carry your own stuff andobviously the desert and I've,
ever since I fell in love withdoing those events.
The desert has got its own wayto ground you as a human and let
(39:38):
you, let you, ask all thequestions that you've avoided
asking yourself.
And but one thing that happenedto me over the years and after
16, 17 marathons that I've donenow the principle of finishing,
and so I was always interestedthat the finish line is what I'm
(39:59):
after.
And then I think you know, overthe last two to three years and
I talked about this also afterfinishing the Great Wall of
China marathon I've realized,susan, that and again that's
come.
Come with maturity.
The finish line is not theobjective.
(40:21):
Yeah, it's who you become afterthe finish line.
Yeah, and so when I go through42.2 kilometers, there is a type
of transformation happening inmy body, obviously, but also
mentally, and every time I do amarathon, something changes as
(40:42):
well.
And so I've realized that thefinish line is not really the
goal.
It's who you become aftercrossing the finish line.
And that made me think about ohokay, so if we are running a
project at work, going throughthe project and completing the
(41:03):
project is not really theobjective.
The objective is that if you'rea part of the project, who do
you become after completing theproject?
And your stakeholders?
How are they going to benefit?
And their lives are hopefullybetter after you finish the
project, not the finishing line,yeah, and so for me, writing a
(41:25):
book, surely you are not reallythe completion of the book, but
the person you become afterreflecting on all of your
thoughts in those pages.
Susan (41:37):
Yeah, I agree.
Where are you going in Marzlnext?
Ali (41:41):
Well, this year I've got three.
I've got a great Ocean Roadmarathon in about four weeks,
I've got the Sydney marathon inAugust and I've got a New York
marathon in November.
Susan (41:52):
Oh my God, three in a year.
You have fours.
Ali (41:54):
Well, this year I set a personal challenge for me and
also it's always fun when you goto different cities and doing
those things, but I guaranteeyou the conversation and the
learning will be completelydifferent every time I do it.
I'm a different person and everytime I do it I go through the
(42:15):
same struggles.
But remember it's not reallythe event, it leads to the event
as well.
So all the preparation it takestime to train for a marathon
and you need time and I'm astrong believer that if
something is so important foryou, then you will make time for
it.
Susan (42:35):
Definitely.
Ali (42:36):
I agree.
And then the principle ofchallenge also has changed over
the years.
I used to think this is apersonal challenge and I
realized that to choose achallenge, a good challenge, is
going to be good for you, goodfor your family and good for the
community.
So I raise money through thosemarathons.
(42:57):
Nice.
It's good for me as a fitness,yeah, and it's good for my
family, my son.
I hope he will be inspired byall of these events.
Susan (43:08):
I'm sure he will.
He definitely will.
All these influences are subtle, but you already plant the seed
in his heart.
I'm sure he is.
Ali (43:16):
When you go through your pivots and do you think over
time we become stronger.
Do we think of this as a sortof a mental muscle?
Susan (43:29):
um, I think so.
I remember my farewell emailfrom google on my last day.
I wrote joining google make mestrong, leaving google make me
stronger.
I know it's kind of naive whenyou were young you write that
way, but still I feel likethat's true.
Every different experiencetaught me different things,
(43:49):
every different type of work.
I learned it in a hard way.
As you mentioned, I used to be asoftware engineer and then I
was leading the global publicpolicy for TikTok.
I never even learned about itand I learned it at the job.
I learned it from the peoplewho believe and trust me and
even followed me change from oneteam one other, just because
(44:10):
they feel like they've been seenin the team and seen their
potential.
Because they feel like they'vebeen seen in the team and seen
their potential and they feellike they have career
progression if they in my teamand that's all inspired me and
feel like, oh, maybe I'm alittle bit, I'm good at
leadership in a different way,even though I'm not the
strongest leader in the room,but I'm probably most supportive
, caring and be able to supportthem, navigate some of the
(44:34):
hardship, be able to endure whenthings not doing well instead
of just all the glorious thingsand we celebrate often.
We have a really strong teamculture because of that and we
made lifelong friends.
So, as you mentioned, I feellike I go through a different
pivot.
I probably gained a lot ofdifferent friendship.
(44:57):
I probably lost someone on thejourney as well.
You will never have all thepeople like you.
You know it's impossible andyou have to make peace with it.
You can only do so much as longas you are responsible for your
life and yourself.
You are not hurting others.
You can't control what thenarrative other people believe
(45:21):
in or want to see, but you canalways be the best version of
yourself and that's what myparents told me.
They say regardless of howother people treat you maybe
because they are from differentcircumstances, maybe they have
something going on you alwaystreat everyone the best way you
(45:45):
can because that's how they willremember you.
You never lower your manner tosort of equal with other
people's attack never, so that's.
That's kind of the kind ofgenerosity or the life attitude
I learned.
I would want to treat everyoneas best as possible.
(46:06):
At least I feel like at peaceand I feel I did everything I
can and there's no regret fromthere and whatever returns is
out of my control and move on.
Ali (46:18):
And that piece is very important and they're very wise
words from your parents.
Something that drives mepersonally, susan, is that I
constantly maybe I abandoned alot of fear in the past.
Maybe I also don't look forrecognition in any way.
(46:41):
What's helping me every singleday is that.
What value do I need to add tothe people around me, and what
experience would I like to leavepeople with when they interact
with me?
Do I want to leave them with anice positive experience or do I
(47:02):
want to leave them withsomething different?
And I choose the positiveexperience because it's going to
be good for me, it's going tobe good for them and it's going
to be good for the people thatthey're going to interact with
and hopefully, through that theyget I don't know, maybe they
might be inspired or theyactually pick up something in
there.
(47:22):
So that is what keeps me sane.
Every day, similar to you,slightly different way.
Susan (47:33):
Yeah.
Ali (47:35):
I like it.
Yeah, I am coming close to theend of the podcast, but I've got
a couple of questions for youand so many people listening to
this may be in the middle ofsomething or a shift they didn't
expect or a path they aren'tsure of, and your story holds a
lot of encouragement.
If someone listening uh hereand stuck in their personal
(47:58):
change story, what is somethingthat you would want them to hear
, not just intellectually,probably emotionally as well I
think, for example, for thecareer change you, you can only
want to be better yourself.
Susan (48:16):
It's not other people's responsibility to make you look
nice and give you the promotionyourself from the inner self.
You have to be want to bebetter.
You have to be want to um,listen to the critical feedback
and decide from it which partyou can take on and transform.
So that is a inner work.
(48:37):
I think if you want to get areward, you have to put the hard
work.
But at the same time, I thinkthere's nothing wrong to be
ambitious.
I'm never shy away from thethings I want to get.
I think it's okay.
You want good and better things.
I think that's give your life apurpose and hope, whether it's
(48:58):
a tangible thing or a dream cometrue or an experience.
You can admit you want all ofthat and then work for it.
And people can judge, peoplecan say different things.
It doesn't really matter inthat sense.
But you don't have to hide away.
I think there's nothing wrongto be visible and relevant for
(49:20):
different um things you arechasing um and, like you
mentioned, people will see theauthentic self, people you want
to be um together or in the samecrowd.
They, they will value youradvice or value your presence in
that circle.
So yeah, it's okay to beambitious.
Ali (49:42):
I look at it this way is that if somebody is also in a
situation, I always think, justtake the first step and see what
happens, and maybe take thesecond step and see what happens
.
And you mentioned the fail fast.
I've actually reflected on thisfor a while now and I've
(50:05):
started calling it.
You need to fail honestly, andfailing honestly means then
you're really going to have tospend a lot of time reflecting
on that experience and learningas much as you can from it.
That's when you become honestwith yourself.
Yeah, yeah, and this is theinternal dialogue that you
(50:29):
talked about.
But I love what you mentioned isthat I can be more blunt than
this, susan.
I can say nobody cares aboutyour career direction.
You'll have to take charge ofthat.
Yeah, and taking chargerequires effort and time and
thinking.
And if you don't have any ofthose, that's okay, cool.
(50:52):
Maybe you seek help fromsomebody else, maybe you listen
to this podcast, maybe you readSusan's book, maybe go and
listen to another podcast, butthe idea is that sitting doing
nothing is not really the bestoption at this stage.
Susan (51:09):
Yeah, exactly, I feel like people normally regretted
things they didn't do ratherthan done right.
Because you experience it, youcan cross off your list and the
the things left in your bucketare probably all your strengths
or your unique selling point ifyou consider yourself as a
product in the market.
I used to tell my team know, bekind to others with skills, be
(51:33):
bold with care.
So if I can choose between bekind or be right with someone, I
always choose be kind first andeverything else will follow.
I think that will go a long wayin the life experience you have
with other human beings.
Ali (51:53):
That is wonderful and I like that.
My last question to you ismaybe we'll just end up with
something really positive andnice and looking back with
kindness, as you mentioned, ifyou could sit across from your
younger self the one juststarting out.
Susan (52:21):
What would you say about that change and what that change
really means?
I'll say eat well, sleep well,be prepared for all the physical
drain you are about to gothrough in the next 20 years.
Always choose to be a goodperson to start with and be
authentic.
Um, admit you can do something,um good or not good at well
said, you're free and people.
You will be surprised how muchpeople are willing to help you
(52:45):
and learn the skill and that'show you build your mentorship
and friendship from that pointon.
And then that's how you stepoutside your comfort zone to
learn from someone's strengthsin their comfort zone.
Ali (52:58):
I love it.
I love it and thank you so muchfor your time.
Susan, how would people get ahold of you, a copy of your book
?
Susan (53:08):
They can go to Amazon and search for life outside your my
comfort zone, Susan John, andyou will find the second edition
, the hard copy or paperback oraudio book.
If you're a member, I thinkthat's free.
Yeah, Feel free to leave me acritical feedback or comments.
I'm looking forward to bebetter next time for my second
(53:32):
or set book.
Ali (53:33):
And if people want to connect with you, is LinkedIn
the best option.
Susan (53:37):
LinkedIn or my website, xiaoqinzhangcom.
Or it's easier to search forLittleDragonme.
It's also my website.
Ali (53:47):
Fantastic.
I want to read you a quote fromMark Twain.
Please want to read you a quotefrom Mark Twain.
And it says 20 years from now,you will be more disappointed by
the things you didn't do thanby the ones you did.
So throw off the bound lines,sail away from the safe harbor,
(54:09):
catch the trade winds in yoursails.
Susan (54:17):
Explore, dream discover.
Oh, I love it.
Ali (54:19):
Thank you so much.
Pleasure having you in mypodcast, the Inner Game of
Change.
Until next time, Susan, staywell and stay safe.
Susan (54:26):
Thank you so much, looking forward to see you
outside your comfort zone.
Ali (54:30):
Thank you your comfort zone .
Thank you.
Thank you for listening.
If you found this episodevaluable, remember to subscribe
to stay updated on upcomingepisodes.
Your support is trulyappreciated and, by sharing this
podcast with your colleagues,friends and fellow change
(54:53):
practitioners, it can help mereach even more individuals and
professionals who can benefitfrom these discussions.
Remember, and in my opinion,change is an enduring force and
you will only have a measure ofcertainty and control when you
embrace it.
Until next time, thank you forbeing part of the Inner Game of
Change community.
(55:14):
I am Ali Jammah and this is theInner Game of Change podcast.
I remember my farewell email from Google on my last day
.
I wrote joining Google make mestrong, leaving Google make me
stronger.
I know it's kind of naive whenyou were young you write that
way, but still I feel likethat's true.
Every different experiencetaught me different things,
every different type of work.
(00:22):
I learned it in a hard way.
As you mentioned, I used to be asoftware engineer and then I
was leading the global publicpolicy for TikTok.
I never even learned about itand I learned it at the job.
I learned it from the peoplewho believe and trust me and
even followed me changing fromone team to another, just
because they feel like they'vebeen seen in the team and seen
(00:44):
their potential.
And they feel like they havebeen seen in the team and seen
their potential and they feellike they have career
progression.
If they in my team and that'sall inspired me and feel like,
oh, maybe I'm a little bit, I'mgood at leadership in a
different way, even though I'mnot the strongest leader in the
room, but I'm probably mostsupportive, caring and be able
to support them, navigate someof the hardship, be able to
(01:06):
endure when things not doingwell instead of just all the
glorious things and we celebrateoften.
We have a really strong teamculture because of that and we
made lifelong friends.
Ali (01:34):
Welcome to the Inner Game of Change, the podcast that
explores the evolving landscapeof change management, leadership
and transformation.
I am your host, ali Juma.
In today's episode, I amthrilled to be joined by Susan
Zhang, a creative technologist,author and a global thought
leader.
From her beginnings in China toher journey as an international
student here in Australia,susan has embraced the
(01:54):
discomfort of change to unlockpersonal and professional growth
.
We dive deep into topics likethe power of stepping outside
your comfort zone, the role ofambition in driving change and
how embracing failure can leadto unexpected growth.
Susan shares her uniqueperspective on leadership,
drawing from her experiences atGoogle and her bold decisions to
(02:17):
pivot in her career.
If you are navigating a time ofuncertainty or change, this
conversation offers powerfulinsights on how to move forward
with confidence, embracing newopportunities and transform
challenges into growth.
I am grateful to have Susanchatting with me today.
Well, susan, thank you so muchfor your time today and thank
(02:40):
you for joining me in the innergame of change podcast.
Thank you for your time todayand thank you for joining me in
the Inner Game of Change podcast.
Susan (02:44):
Thank you for having me.
Ali (02:46):
How large your heart is, how large the stage will be.
That is the Chinese proverb.
Talk to me about that, yeah itis.
Susan (02:55):
Yeah, that's what my parents taught me when I was
young.
In Chinese it's saying你的心有多大舞台就有多大。 so my parents are
all working in performing arts.
My dad is a performer forPeking Opera.
My mom is a professionalviolinist.
They're always on the stage,but you know, for one minute on
(03:16):
the stage you have to preparefor 10 years.
So they told me from the smallstage they played in their
province.
They go to city, they go tostate, they go to national.
So I followed their journey andthat motto followed me in my
heart and planned to see it aswell.
Ali (03:36):
Talk to me about the sense of stage.
Has that changed over time?
Susan (03:42):
I think so.
You know, from a small town inChina, I never see an ocean
before I turned 18.
And then all of a sudden Iboard a flight.
I fly to Australia to study asan international student.
I not only just step outsidethe province the stage of my
comfort zone and then the stageof my comfort zone and then
(04:05):
cross the ocean, cross thousandsof miles to a place where not
many people speak Mandarin andyou have to speak English, so
it's a total stage change.
That is crazy, but it's alsofun and very thrill when looking
back.
Ali (04:19):
Let's touch on that concept of comfort zone.
What does it mean to you?
I mean um, what does evencomfort mean?
Susan (04:29):
comfort.
I feel like this is probably alittle bit extreme.
Um, comfort feels like a slowdying, like you probably sit
somewhere, um comfortable in thewarm water.
It's like the frog in the pan,right when the, when the
temperature going up, you don'treally feel it until it's 90
degree, 100.
And then you're dead.
(04:50):
So that's how I feel, likecomfort.
You don't feel the threat, youdon't feel you're afraid, you
don't see what's coming.
You kind of lost the vision.
You kind of lost your what doyou call it competitive edge.
You don't know what's straightout there, but it could be
dangerous.
So that's comfort to me.
(05:13):
And what appeals to you in thediscomfort zone.
This comfort zone is when I'min someone else's comfort zone.
For example, when I speak toyou, you are the mastermind of
change management For me.
I probably, you know, know, notstudy this area or, um, not so
experienced as I'm in yourcomfort zone, in your strength
area.
So when, when I'm in myweakness area in someone's
(05:33):
strength, that's when I feellike I'm outside the comfort
zone.
But it's also the place whereyou can learn the most from the
people who are the expert oftheir comfort zone.
Ali (05:44):
So that is fun and there's a lot of learning in this
comfort zone.
Obviously, you learn aboutsomething, but you also learn
about yourself.
I'm really keen about thatnotion of before we start
recording.
I was just sharing my storywith you and I always think that
(06:05):
we do a lot of internalprocessing so we can get the
learning from the outside world.
I mean, talk to me about that.
Susan (06:10):
Yeah, I feel like I can smell the change.
It's like someone can smell thegood food is coming.
I think the first thing come tomind is always very natural you
will ask am I ready?
So right?
Um, it doesn't matter, you're asuperman or you are everyday
people.
You will ask yourself am Iready?
What I missed, what I will loss?
(06:32):
So it's a very common set ofquestion.
But what is different is youeither stay in that mood, panic,
or stuck there, or you'retrying to think creatively or
leverage some of the resourcefriend, mentor and create
something to bridging that gap,become a problem solver.
So that's kind of differentiate, the different mindset you have
(06:54):
for for someone to staycomfortable in current state or
someone very open for criticism,for feedback, for the
opportunity to change or embracethe risk.
So that's how I look at it.
Ali (07:08):
Okay, I described myself at some stage as a restless man
restless in the sense that andmy parents were not really happy
with this notion that I alwaysfelt that surely there's
something more than waking upevery day doing the same thing
and then I go back to sleep.
You know, at the end of the day, how restless are you.
Susan (07:31):
Well, I don't craving for change Like if there's no need
to do so.
We are not wise to just for thesake of change, but when it's
necessary, when you can createoptions, when there's better
options, when there is makesense in your current life stage
, for your purpose, for yourgoal or for your current
(07:54):
situation, and then it isnecessary to change.
So I would say I'm happy to sitthere to read a book for a
couple of hours, but if I smellthe change I won't sit around.
And then that's the rest list.
To start.
I will start to prepare, make alist, start to Google or ask
(08:14):
the chat GPT now and start tosay to visualize how the change
will look like if I do this, ifI do that.
And then you know the defaultis always a plan B, which is
nothing happens.
Ali (08:29):
Which is nothing happens.
Yeah, well, I mean that for alot of people probably that is a
plan A.
When you say you smell a change, meaning the definition of
change here is an opportunityfor something better.
Is that the definition of it?
Susan (08:45):
Sometimes it can be better.
I mean, for example, if youhave to do a house moving, you
have to buy all the boxes.
That's all the investment.
First right, you have to spendyour weekend searching for a
property and that property couldbe more expensive, could be at
a worse location, could be allsorts of things.
Sometimes it's not overallbetter, but then if you think
(09:09):
another way, I can reorganize mythings, I can throw away or
donate things I don't need.
I can detox from the currentlife.
I can change the city, changethe scenery, the upper side.
Sometimes it is exciting.
Even though you do have sunkcosts, you do have friction.
I mean, life itself is neverperfect.
(09:31):
There's always a friction, aslong as it doesn't hurt, doesn't
hurt your health, doesn't hurttoo much financially.
I would tend to look at thebrighter side of the things and
thinking about the upperpotential.
Ali (09:47):
Susan, I've had the pleasure of listening to you
multiple times in the pasttalking.
You always mention somethingwhich is really I mean, I've
reflected on that and I stoppedand I thought at some stage I'm
going to ask you about it.
You always say you are 100%made in China.
You always say you are 100%made in China.
(10:07):
What's the emotion behind thisstatement?
Susan (10:11):
Yeah, it is true, I think , as an international student,
I'm terrified to introducemyself.
I think that's how it started.
And when my English is notperfect, the less I speak, the
less problem you can find frommy english.
The shorter sentence is better.
You look at your close labor.
It just struck me to say 100made in china.
(10:32):
I'm like you know what.
That's also me.
Um, I'm 100 content, I'mworshipful, I'm go with any
blind I you know, throw me in adryer, I'll survive the
toughness.
Where come from?
What I'm proud of, my origin,what I look like, what I
represent don't make sense.
100% made in China.
Ali (10:54):
So that's how it started and it's always become my
identity the depth of yourrelationship to your culture and
your ethnicity and your parentsand family, and I really like
that.
I mean every time you mentionthat and although you say it in
(11:17):
your own wonderful way of makingit really simple, but it's
certainly deeper, in my opinion.
Anyway, from China to Australia, from an international student
to a global knowledge worker,from a software engineer okay to
a creative technologist, toGoogle, you were an introvert,
(11:41):
but now you're talking at TEDxand apparently you've been to
the Burning man.
The hell are you doing there?
And this is why it prompted meto think God, I'm talking to a
restless person in here, but Ithink sometimes it comes across
that your life so far themajority of it is not quite by
(12:06):
design.
Or am I wrong with this?
Susan (12:10):
I think you're right.
I came from a traditionalfamily in China.
By design, I should marry whenI'm fresh out of the college,
when I'm 22.
I should have two kids before Ican see the end of it.
And that's exactly not what Iwanted.
(12:37):
That's why I boarded the flightand study as an international
student.
I think a majority of students.
They came here because theparents selected school.
They talked to differentrecruitment agency.
The parents have planned it all.
I did the opposite way.
I did my English test, I got myadmission paper, I got my offer
(12:58):
.
The only thing I need is themoney to buy the flight ticket.
And that's the time I tell myparents and say, hey, this is
your lovely kite you're flying,which is myself.
And here is the scissors in myhand and I'm kind of like
cutting myself loose, but I'mstill keeping in that, keeping
that tie.
But that's how I just started,that's how I see.
(13:21):
What's the upbringing and whatwired me inside of me is kind of
different from people and Ihave this small voice or small
personality inside of me andjust anxious to see the world so
similar to burning man everbeen there and these people say
(13:41):
it's dangerous, it's also fun,it's one of the lifetime
experience.
A google founder.
They went there.
You know the first googledoodle.
Um, every day change right.
It started because of theburning mind.
That's the first doodle Googleever have, because Sergey and
Larry went there and part of thecompany culture of free lunch
(14:01):
is coming from the Burning manculture, the giving and not
expecting something return.
So I just enjoyed and curious,like where's the Google culture
coming from Burning man?
I want to go there andexperience myself and a product.
After I experience, I quitgoogle.
It's so comfortable.
So everything start to, youknow, like a fly well, and start
to spin from there and just oneafter another and get to where
(14:25):
I am now we're gonna come backto this concept of the flywheel.
Ali (14:30):
You've gotten your wheel, you've got in your journey a lot
of pivots, and I'm just curious, susan, when we look at an
opportunity or we look at theunknown for us, how do you
personally recognize whetherit's actually something that you
need to pivot for, or is itjust a noise?
Susan (14:51):
At some point in my life, I think, when I, for example,
when I left, left china, I canonly bring two suitcase of
things and at that time you know, from a family don't have a lot
of money my parents pack a ricecooker and toilet paper 20
rolls and you open the ricecooker, there's one row sitting
inside.
That's how much things you said, the, how much they care about
(15:15):
your life, what they worry themost and what you can pack with
your life, and that's what Ibring to Australia.
And then I realize the physicalthings.
That's how much limit you canbring in the physical size of a
cage, of a suitcase or paper orany physical form, suitcase or
(15:38):
on paper or on any physical form.
But experience you bring in yourmind, in your photograph, in
your audio, in your voicemail,that's, that's invaluable and
you can carry that forever inyour life and that's become your
legacy, your your life of lovewhen you talk to your friends
later on or when you're lookingat a photograph 10 years ago.
So I feel like from that pointon I will only collect
(16:02):
experience rather than anyphysical goods, because at the
end of the day we're notbringing anything um when you
are leaving this world.
So that's become kind of thefoundation of the change when
I'm looking at anything.
If I'm collecting a newexperience, well, I go for it.
Ali (16:20):
I like that.
And I like I mean experiencesare what really we can enjoy and
we can share.
Everything else is just trivialif you actually think about it.
You described yourself as anintrovert before.
Are you still an introvert?
Susan (16:36):
Yeah, I've done my MIT MRBI the test before.
Ali (16:40):
The MBTI yeah.
Susan (16:42):
Yeah, mbti, I'm still, yeah, I'm still.
Ali (16:45):
People are hard to change.
You know it.
People are hard to change.
And how does this introvertoperate in a public arena?
What goes internally inside ofyou to actually help you be the
person on a stage?
Susan (17:04):
Yeah, I think being an introvert and being the quiet or
being the loudest compared withextrovert is two different
things.
Even though I can be anintrovert, I can use written
form.
I used to write somethingcalled Friday's 3.30 report to
(17:25):
all my team and share some ofthe conference I went to.
I went to, for example, graceHopper conference in US in 2016,
and I shared 57 slides of thetrip report to my team of the
things I learned.
I met Jeff Dean of Google Brand.
At that time.
I met a different company andwhat is their new selling point
(17:45):
or what's their new product?
All of the things.
And people used to joke youremails reads like a VP reports.
Even if it's my sick email,like all email, they took a lot
of interest because I make it sofun.
Then people start to rememberme.
I think that's calledvisibility.
Even though my English is notthat good, I can write it.
(18:06):
I can use a form, I'm good atit, I'm putting the humor and
people will still know about me.
So I think that's a very subtlepower of influence.
I'm definitely not the loudestin the room, but I can be the
kindest, I can be the mostinteresting.
I can be the most memorableperson in other form.
So that's kind of like I foundmy niche and people start to
(18:30):
remember it and we should notconfuse quietness with
introversion.
Ali (18:35):
Anyway, yeah, an introvert or extrovert majority of us
actually are.
Different things at differenttimes.
Yeah, yeah, outside work, I amquiet in my own corner.
That's why I took up running,because it's a very lonely thing
where I can think, even at thegym.
Yeah, I'm not one of thosepeople where I can think even at
(18:55):
the gym.
Yeah, I'm not one of thosepeople that will have a chat at
the gym.
I am there, focused onsomething.
But the way we get our energyfrom is around this internal
processing, and so I'm alwaysinterested in how what people
actually go through internallybefore an event.
(19:20):
And so you did mention the wordinfluence.
You do use a lot of comicstatements in there.
Is that it's like almost likeyou?
That is your personality andyou wanted to embrace it.
And the more we show ofourselves on a stage it's kind
(19:40):
of funny because the more theauthentic the message comes
across.
Is that who you are in reallife?
Susan (19:49):
Yeah, I found it's hard to fake.
People say fake it until youget it.
I found it's very hard to fakeyou are powerful, you have a
power.
Uh, posture.
My english is not perfect.
Everyone can spot grammarmistake if I speak more than
three sentence.
Um, I just thought it's moreeasy, breathable and more fun
(20:11):
just to be myself.
I get a lot of feedback afterdifferent conference and people
come just to be myself.
I get a lot of feedback afterdifferent conferences and people
come talk to me and say becauseI said which example and it
struck them and it stays withthem forever.
And then I gradually build somany different relationships
from all the different audiencespeakers.
We keep in touch, we swap notes, I feel like be humble and
(20:34):
listen to everyone's story.
I end up learning more thanwhat I speak on the panel of
different conference.
I think the personal connectionas a butterfly effect
afterwards is more nurturing andrewarding.
And I also think life is hardenough.
Just looking at last night wakeup one o'clock, three o'clock,
(20:55):
five o'clock to feeding a baby.
No one's going to be happyabout it, but what you can do, I
can just maybe laugh about ittrying to get a massage and
think, ok, I can do it.
All the moms can do it.
I can try to talk to someone.
Looking at the brighter side.
I have a healthy baby, what Ican ask him for more.
So, brighter side, I have ahealthy baby, what I can ask him
(21:17):
for more.
So you just have to.
You can make your life harder.
You can decide to make it alittle bit more entertaining,
lighter, and have somethinglooking forward to moving on
right.
I know the face will be passedby.
You told me kids are growingreally fast.
They are in tiktok age.
You never wish for them to growas fast.
So I listen to your advice.
I feel like you know what.
(21:38):
I'm probably just enjoying it.
At the moment I can still holdthis human being in my arms
before they push you away.
Ali (21:45):
So that's kind of become who I am, and you seem to create
meaning around all of yourexperiences.
I want to shift gear, butbefore I do that, I want to ask
you was there a time that youstuffed up big time and then you
thought you know, that wasrubbish and that's cool?
(22:07):
I will learn from this and I'mgoing to have to move on.
Susan (22:12):
I have a lot of moments like that.
I think people don't realize it.
You know, for example, PhD issuch a lonely and hard journey.
Ali (22:23):
Sorry, that is exactly why I'm asking the question is
because what we see we see theSusan who is just happy and
accomplished and you know it'sgot everything in balance but
what they don't see is whathappens and the struggle and the
fight and the thinking and thestuff that, the real stuff, that
(22:44):
happens behind the scenes.
Susan (22:46):
Exactly, there's two.
People said.
My husband is seeing me threeo'clock laying on the ground.
I just dragged my hair and he'sjust like crying just as much
as my baby.
The other one is my therapist,right.
But at the same time we have tounderstand people have basic
dignity and for me to get myenergy, like you mentioned in
(23:09):
the beginning, talking to people, learning from them, for me is
equivalent to a mother's groupright.
So people get energy back at adifferent form.
I found myself being useful.
Make me happy.
I feel like I'm still useful.
I still have this value tobring to my family, to the
society.
(23:29):
Make myself have somethinglooking forward to make myself
pick me up.
Pick myself up and saying thisis this hardship worth enduring?
But it doesn't mean I don'tsuffer.
I know I look very slim, happy,but of course people can't see
the two caesarean 10 centimeterscar swallowing beneath the
(23:55):
clothes.
Just because that looks nicewith a dress doesn't mean I
didn't suffer.
But I don't want to give peoplefalse message.
I also tell them how much timeI spend on different things, how
much support.
I always mention my husbandlooking after the two kids.
Well, I can do multiple thingsjust because I have a really
fantastic support system.
(24:17):
Without that, I can't do any ofthem and I yeah.
So I think that's the realitythere's.
You can only see the gloriousside on the surface on social
media, because differentplatform created differently to
offer different facelets.
But in the meantime, yeah, Iendure all the hardship, just as
(24:41):
everybody else.
Ali (24:43):
I was sharing this little story with a friend of mine
saying and please, this is notan advice to people you know
listening to this.
But I was saying if I am notsore from the gym, I don't feel
good, and that constant sorenessis a good indicator for me that
(25:04):
I am, you know, on track, thatI am contributing, that I'm
looking after my, my fitness andmy body.
What do you think of thisstatement?
Susan (25:15):
I like it because you know your limit right.
So everyone has a differentthreshold of pain of things you
can take on and there's nojudgment.
You can work on one thing andwork on it really well.
That's the strength Someone cando multitasking and enjoying
(25:36):
different things.
That's their choice.
So I think you know your limitand you are very persistent.
You have different attributes.
You will be good at certaindifferent things.
So I think that's kind ofdiverse bringing to the team
right.
Otherwise no one builds thesame and no one fit in all,
(25:56):
especially now you knoweveryone's the job force is all
different with all the toolsavailable and everyone is
different.
And then you know, bring thebest things out of everyone is
more important than judging iton the same cover.
Ali (26:12):
I want to ask you something that I always think about and
I've got something that I needto act on.
There's always those two forcesbetween a fear of failure, but
I'm too damn curious about it.
So those two forces in therehappening at the same time, I
(26:34):
think the difference betweenmovement forward or staying the
same is which one is going towin at the end of the day.
Talk to me about how you managethose two forces in there.
Susan (26:48):
I think I definitely learned that in a corporate
world.
Someone said you know, you haveto be brave enough to suck at
something new.
I think in the corporate world,especially in startup, you
afford to fail and fail fast.
That's a startup culture,because that's how you learn.
But obviously it's differentwhen you in a life situation or
(27:11):
you work a different agency.
You have so much, um at cost.
You can't make that decision soeasily.
So that's what I feel like.
I can be responsible for my ownlife.
Then I'm happy to take my ownlife as an experiment if I'm not
hurting anyone else, right,because you can't control the
(27:32):
environment, you can't controlothers.
But I can be responsible for mylife and I'm happy to sign up
my life for a roller coaster, um, as long as I know the
tournament condition, I know allthe things I may be encounter
or maybe not, but that is myrisk appetite and I'm happy to
take it and the consequences togo with it.
(27:52):
Um, and I feel like, enjoy everymoment, even though you are
vomiting, even though you arestruggling, when you're looking
back you are just laughing atall those funny photos, as long
as it's not life critical, right.
So I think back to where Istarted.
It's all part of the lifeexperience.
It's all the up and down, makesup looks really fun and makes
(28:14):
it down really miserable, andthat's that's the quality of the
life.
That's your storyline and youwant it to be vivid, interesting
and have something to laughabout.
When we reach 100 years old,that will be fun and we can do a
podcast when we are 100 yearsold.
Ali (28:32):
That will be fun.
Yes, Hopefully I'll be able tosurvive that long.
Of course you will.
I've always noticed, from myreading and observation and
talking to a lot of guests,successful people always have
sort of rituals and habits thatthey usually follow to actually
(28:53):
help them stay grounded.
When you know, especiallyduring change times or
transition times or tough times,Do you have any rituals or
habits?
Susan (29:08):
I like journal.
The first part of the journalbecomes the book.
But I like to just write downmy thinking, percepts, not just
a to-do list, but sometimes Icall it the life balance sheet.
Even though it's never balancedout, I just write out what is
almost like a SWOT analysis, butwithout a price tag.
(29:30):
I guess you write what is athreat, what is an opportunity
and then what is a challenge.
I really love the opportunityside, so my eyes are always wide
open when I see the opportunity.
And then my husband will remindme the potential, the loss and
and and the risk.
So I guess the balance sheet Ialso balance out with my partner
(29:52):
and how we balance the risk,how we look at life differently
and balance out the life itself.
So yeah, life balance sheet,that's what I normally do.
Whenever there's a new changecoming, I'll, you know, draw a
diagonal and then look at whatis X, what is Y, what is upper
(30:12):
potential and what we could lost, and then thinking about it.
So I won't take any of the allof the change right, just some
of them from that analysis.
So that's the ritual I do everytime before the change.
Ali (30:26):
I like it and this is your anchor basically to keep you
centered, because part of oursuccess sometimes is actually
saying no to new things.
Susan (30:38):
I do.
Sometimes I do say no to someof the change because it doesn't
make sense.
Sometimes it is exciting butit's not the right time to do
the right thing.
So you still have to keeplogical.
Not all the change are right.
Not all the lost can't berecovered.
So it's very important, like youmentioned something, what we
(31:01):
can learn from it, what we canexperience and the upper side
potential.
But never take a change lightlybecause the consequences are
also high.
So you still have to use yourpersonal experience, your
judgment, ask some of yourmentors.
Sometimes I tend to put myselfas a third perspective and put
my small person visually out ofthe thing and say, if I'm Ali or
(31:26):
I don't know if I'm someoneelse what this person will do.
And then if I know Ali reallywell, know you really well, I'll
say, like you know, ali is astrong force of pivot.
He will think this change isfantastic, but from his
experience it's not necessary,right?
So if I put myself outside thatcontext and just do that
(31:49):
exercise, you actually will knowhalf of your answer by doing
that.
Ali (31:54):
And even this exercise, susan, is very sophisticated and
very intelligent.
It's not easy to put yourselfin somebody else's way of
thinking.
However, as you mentioned, ifyou like somebody else's way of
thinking, it might be a goodidea to actually.
The whole idea of asking thisquestion in a different way is
(32:16):
so you step out of your ownbiases and look at it from a
different perspective.
Susan (32:21):
Yeah, definitely.
I sometimes just ask youbecause you're a mastermind of
change.
I'll say what I will do.
Ali (32:30):
I want to shift gear and talk about your book.
I often think that people writebooks and, by the way, I've
been thinking about writing acouple of books for years now,
but I know at some stage thatit'll happen.
I think it's just a matter oftiming and maturity.
When people write a book,there's a lot of pain that goes
(32:51):
with it.
There's a lot of expectations,a lot of editing.
How was that for you?
Susan (32:57):
Well, I think my editor went through more pain than what
we can imagine.
Thinking about my English.
I feel sorry for my editor whatthey've been through.
I think I like reading andwriting.
I grew up in the environment oflibrary reading and writing.
(33:19):
I grew up in the environment oflibrary.
I remember when my mom was alibrarian for the 30 years in
the state library in China overa hundred years history of the
state library I always run tothe room to read a new book and
smell it and that make my nose,the tip of my nose, black
because of the ink at that time.
You know it's not not asquality paper and before I read
a lot of the script before I canrecognize all the characters.
(33:40):
Whichever book smells the best,I pick up that one.
So that's kind of the naturalinstinct of the books.
I love the cover design.
I love the story and thedifferent world folded away
inside those simple pages.
And that idea came in 2019 whenCOVID hit and we are at home
(34:02):
and I have all these thoughtsgoing on in my brain and that's
become a venue for me to pourinto it and I call it life
outside my comfort zone.
Follow a Dutch saying go drugin Dutch, my colleague, my
google colleague, told me meansgo dragon go.
But if you use google translateit's actually say go to the
(34:24):
dungeon.
so I hope people using, I hopethe dutch people know it and
don't google translate it Istill trust my google colleague
for the name, and including inthat book 12 chapters nine in
chinese and nine english andthree in chinese I kind of push
the reader outside their comfortzone to learn chinese.
(34:45):
It's fun, right?
It's my first debut of the bookand I fortunate enough to
launch it with talks at googlein uk and a couple of different
book events in china, austAustralia and in the US and meet
some of the readers and readtheir feedback.
(35:05):
I still want to go to Amazon toread all the different feedback
from the first book, eventhough it's quite embarrassing
to still look at the English.
That's why my second book istotally in Chinese.
Back into my comfort zone.
Ali (35:18):
What would your second book be about?
Susan (35:22):
Second book will be a more academic book.
It's AI Economy.
It will be published by one ofthe largest publishers in China,
called China Business PublisherGroup, and it very much concent
concentrate off my research,knowledge economy, attention
economy, smart education and, inthe whole backdrop of the
(35:47):
industrial revolution, forPonderio, influencer phenomena
and all things related to AI,and it should be coming out
towards end of this year, I hope.
Ali (36:01):
Well, I cannot read in Chinese, so at some stage I hope
that is going to be translatedinto something that I can
actually read.
Susan (36:11):
You can learn Mandarin from Duolingo you can download
today and just step outside yourcomfort zone and embrace the
change.
Ali (36:18):
I will take you up on that.
Yeah, definitely I want to askyou about and congratulations
for your first book andcongratulations in advance for
your second book.
I think, especially in the ageof AI now we need voices like
yours to keep us grounded ofwhat this technology can
(36:39):
actually help us with.
I'm certainly very optimisticin that particular field.
I'm always curious.
You know what people becomeafter all of these live
experiences.
Titles change, you know, rolesevolve, yet there's always that
(37:00):
question who am I becomingthrough this?
Who are you becoming?
Susan (37:06):
Who am I becoming?
I used to tell my team how Ilead is who I am.
In that sense, character ishard to change.
I told you in the verybeginning I'm still made in
China and still a product ofChina.
I think I'll stay in thatidentity for as long as I am.
But the person I became is nolonger the very shy
(37:31):
international student girlsitting at a corner of the
classroom.
This person be able to raiseraise up my hand and ask the
first question in the boardmeeting.
I think that's a change.
I no longer say yes to all thethings I'm not supposed to take
on.
(37:51):
I be able to stay calm whenthere's confrontation before I
will be stressed and worried andfeel like I did everything
wrong, which is never true.
Um, I think I changed to becometrust, my instinct and
knowledge a little bit more than15 years ago as an
(38:14):
international student, because Ilearned so much and have so
much help from all the differentmentors and have people who
believe in me.
Yeah, so I think that's that'swho I am now and laugh a little
bit more from all the hardship.
After all the good cry, there'salways a good laugh too.
Ali (38:36):
Always, yes, always, always , yes, always.
I want to share a story withyou that I've taken up running
marathons in 2018.
And four years before that, Iasked myself a question who
would I want to be when I turn50?
What would my 50s look like?
(38:57):
And according to that question,or sobering question, I was
able to plan for 2018 to do myfirst marathon.
But I did it big way.
I did the ultra marathon, theMoroccan Desert, which was a
marathon.
(39:18):
This apps is one of the famousones.
Yeah, six days, six marathonsin a 42 degree desert and you
carry your own stuff andobviously the desert and I've,
ever since I fell in love withdoing those events.
The desert has got its own wayto ground you as a human and let
(39:38):
you, let you, ask all thequestions that you've avoided
asking yourself.
And but one thing that happenedto me over the years and after
16, 17 marathons that I've donenow the principle of finishing,
and so I was always interestedthat the finish line is what I'm
(39:59):
after.
And then I think you know, overthe last two to three years and
I talked about this also afterfinishing the Great Wall of
China marathon I've realized,susan, that and again that's
come.
Come with maturity.
The finish line is not theobjective.
(40:21):
Yeah, it's who you become afterthe finish line.
Yeah, and so when I go through42.2 kilometers, there is a type
of transformation happening inmy body, obviously, but also
mentally, and every time I do amarathon, something changes as
(40:42):
well.
And so I've realized that thefinish line is not really the
goal.
It's who you become aftercrossing the finish line.
And that made me think about ohokay, so if we are running a
project at work, going throughthe project and completing the
(41:03):
project is not really theobjective.
The objective is that if you'rea part of the project, who do
you become after completing theproject?
And your stakeholders?
How are they going to benefit?
And their lives are hopefullybetter after you finish the
project, not the finishing line,yeah, and so for me, writing a
(41:25):
book, surely you are not reallythe completion of the book, but
the person you become afterreflecting on all of your
thoughts in those pages.
Susan (41:37):
Yeah, I agree.
Where are you going in Marzlnext?
Ali (41:41):
Well, this year I've got three.
I've got a great Ocean Roadmarathon in about four weeks,
I've got the Sydney marathon inAugust and I've got a New York
marathon in November.
Susan (41:52):
Oh my God, three in a year.
You have fours.
Ali (41:54):
Well, this year I set a personal challenge for me and
also it's always fun when you goto different cities and doing
those things, but I guaranteeyou the conversation and the
learning will be completelydifferent every time I do it.
I'm a different person and everytime I do it I go through the
(42:15):
same struggles.
But remember it's not reallythe event, it leads to the event
as well.
So all the preparation it takestime to train for a marathon
and you need time and I'm astrong believer that if
something is so important foryou, then you will make time for
it.
Susan (42:35):
Definitely.
Ali (42:36):
I agree.
And then the principle ofchallenge also has changed over
the years.
I used to think this is apersonal challenge and I
realized that to choose achallenge, a good challenge, is
going to be good for you, goodfor your family and good for the
community.
So I raise money through thosemarathons.
(42:57):
Nice.
It's good for me as a fitness,yeah, and it's good for my
family, my son.
I hope he will be inspired byall of these events.
Susan (43:08):
I'm sure he will.
He definitely will.
All these influences are subtle, but you already plant the seed
in his heart.
I'm sure he is.
Ali (43:16):
When you go through your pivots and do you think over
time we become stronger.
Do we think of this as a sortof a mental muscle?
Susan (43:29):
um, I think so.
I remember my farewell emailfrom google on my last day.
I wrote joining google make mestrong, leaving google make me
stronger.
I know it's kind of naive whenyou were young you write that
way, but still I feel likethat's true.
Every different experiencetaught me different things,
(43:49):
every different type of work.
I learned it in a hard way.
As you mentioned, I used to be asoftware engineer and then I
was leading the global publicpolicy for TikTok.
I never even learned about itand I learned it at the job.
I learned it from the peoplewho believe and trust me and
even followed me change from oneteam one other, just because
(44:10):
they feel like they've been seenin the team and seen their
potential.
Because they feel like they'vebeen seen in the team and seen
their potential and they feellike they have career
progression if they in my teamand that's all inspired me and
feel like, oh, maybe I'm alittle bit, I'm good at
leadership in a different way,even though I'm not the
strongest leader in the room,but I'm probably most supportive
, caring and be able to supportthem, navigate some of the
(44:34):
hardship, be able to endure whenthings not doing well instead
of just all the glorious thingsand we celebrate often.
We have a really strong teamculture because of that and we
made lifelong friends.
So, as you mentioned, I feellike I go through a different
pivot.
I probably gained a lot ofdifferent friendship.
(44:57):
I probably lost someone on thejourney as well.
You will never have all thepeople like you.
You know it's impossible andyou have to make peace with it.
You can only do so much as longas you are responsible for your
life and yourself.
You are not hurting others.
You can't control what thenarrative other people believe
(45:21):
in or want to see, but you canalways be the best version of
yourself and that's what myparents told me.
They say regardless of howother people treat you maybe
because they are from differentcircumstances, maybe they have
something going on you alwaystreat everyone the best way you
(45:45):
can because that's how they willremember you.
You never lower your manner tosort of equal with other
people's attack never, so that's.
That's kind of the kind ofgenerosity or the life attitude
I learned.
I would want to treat everyoneas best as possible.
(46:06):
At least I feel like at peaceand I feel I did everything I
can and there's no regret fromthere and whatever returns is
out of my control and move on.
Ali (46:18):
And that piece is very important and they're very wise
words from your parents.
Something that drives mepersonally, susan, is that I
constantly maybe I abandoned alot of fear in the past.
Maybe I also don't look forrecognition in any way.
(46:41):
What's helping me every singleday is that.
What value do I need to add tothe people around me, and what
experience would I like to leavepeople with when they interact
with me?
Do I want to leave them with anice positive experience or do I
(47:02):
want to leave them withsomething different?
And I choose the positiveexperience because it's going to
be good for me, it's going tobe good for them and it's going
to be good for the people thatthey're going to interact with
and hopefully, through that theyget I don't know, maybe they
might be inspired or theyactually pick up something in
there.
(47:22):
So that is what keeps me sane.
Every day, similar to you,slightly different way.
Susan (47:33):
Yeah.
Ali (47:35):
I like it.
Yeah, I am coming close to theend of the podcast, but I've got
a couple of questions for youand so many people listening to
this may be in the middle ofsomething or a shift they didn't
expect or a path they aren'tsure of, and your story holds a
lot of encouragement.
If someone listening uh hereand stuck in their personal
(47:58):
change story, what is somethingthat you would want them to hear
, not just intellectually,probably emotionally as well I
think, for example, for thecareer change you, you can only
want to be better yourself.
Susan (48:16):
It's not other people's responsibility to make you look
nice and give you the promotionyourself from the inner self.
You have to be want to bebetter.
You have to be want to um,listen to the critical feedback
and decide from it which partyou can take on and transform.
So that is a inner work.
(48:37):
I think if you want to get areward, you have to put the hard
work.
But at the same time, I thinkthere's nothing wrong to be
ambitious.
I'm never shy away from thethings I want to get.
I think it's okay.
You want good and better things.
I think that's give your life apurpose and hope, whether it's
(48:58):
a tangible thing or a dream cometrue or an experience.
You can admit you want all ofthat and then work for it.
And people can judge, peoplecan say different things.
It doesn't really matter inthat sense.
But you don't have to hide away.
I think there's nothing wrongto be visible and relevant for
(49:20):
different um things you arechasing um and, like you
mentioned, people will see theauthentic self, people you want
to be um together or in the samecrowd.
They, they will value youradvice or value your presence in
that circle.
So yeah, it's okay to beambitious.
Ali (49:42):
I look at it this way is that if somebody is also in a
situation, I always think, justtake the first step and see what
happens, and maybe take thesecond step and see what happens
.
And you mentioned the fail fast.
I've actually reflected on thisfor a while now and I've
(50:05):
started calling it.
You need to fail honestly, andfailing honestly means then
you're really going to have tospend a lot of time reflecting
on that experience and learningas much as you can from it.
That's when you become honestwith yourself.
Yeah, yeah, and this is theinternal dialogue that you
(50:29):
talked about.
But I love what you mentioned isthat I can be more blunt than
this, susan.
I can say nobody cares aboutyour career direction.
You'll have to take charge ofthat.
Yeah, and taking chargerequires effort and time and
thinking.
And if you don't have any ofthose, that's okay, cool.
(50:52):
Maybe you seek help fromsomebody else, maybe you listen
to this podcast, maybe you readSusan's book, maybe go and
listen to another podcast, butthe idea is that sitting doing
nothing is not really the bestoption at this stage.
Susan (51:09):
Yeah, exactly, I feel like people normally regretted
things they didn't do ratherthan done right.
Because you experience it, youcan cross off your list and the
the things left in your bucketare probably all your strengths
or your unique selling point ifyou consider yourself as a
product in the market.
I used to tell my team know, bekind to others with skills, be
(51:33):
bold with care.
So if I can choose between bekind or be right with someone, I
always choose be kind first andeverything else will follow.
I think that will go a long wayin the life experience you have
with other human beings.
Ali (51:53):
That is wonderful and I like that.
My last question to you ismaybe we'll just end up with
something really positive andnice and looking back with
kindness, as you mentioned, ifyou could sit across from your
younger self the one juststarting out.
Susan (52:21):
What would you say about that change and what that change
really means?
I'll say eat well, sleep well,be prepared for all the physical
drain you are about to gothrough in the next 20 years.
Always choose to be a goodperson to start with and be
authentic.
Um, admit you can do something,um good or not good at well
said, you're free and people.
You will be surprised how muchpeople are willing to help you
(52:45):
and learn the skill and that'show you build your mentorship
and friendship from that pointon.
And then that's how you stepoutside your comfort zone to
learn from someone's strengthsin their comfort zone.
Ali (52:58):
I love it.
I love it and thank you so muchfor your time.
Susan, how would people get ahold of you, a copy of your book
?
Susan (53:08):
They can go to Amazon and search for life outside your my
comfort zone, Susan John, andyou will find the second edition
, the hard copy or paperback oraudio book.
If you're a member, I thinkthat's free.
Yeah, Feel free to leave me acritical feedback or comments.
I'm looking forward to bebetter next time for my second
(53:32):
or set book.
Ali (53:33):
And if people want to connect with you, is LinkedIn
the best option.
Susan (53:37):
LinkedIn or my website, xiaoqinzhangcom.
Or it's easier to search forLittleDragonme.
It's also my website.
Ali (53:47):
Fantastic.
I want to read you a quote fromMark Twain.
Please want to read you a quotefrom Mark Twain.
And it says 20 years from now,you will be more disappointed by
the things you didn't do thanby the ones you did.
So throw off the bound lines,sail away from the safe harbor,
(54:09):
catch the trade winds in yoursails.
Susan (54:17):
Explore, dream discover.
Oh, I love it.
Ali (54:19):
Thank you so much.
Pleasure having you in mypodcast, the Inner Game of
Change.
Until next time, Susan, staywell and stay safe.
Susan (54:26):
Thank you so much, looking forward to see you
outside your comfort zone.
Ali (54:30):
Thank you your comfort zone .
Thank you.
Thank you for listening.
If you found this episodevaluable, remember to subscribe
to stay updated on upcomingepisodes.
Your support is trulyappreciated and, by sharing this
podcast with your colleagues,friends and fellow change
(54:53):
practitioners, it can help mereach even more individuals and
professionals who can benefitfrom these discussions.
Remember, and in my opinion,change is an enduring force and
you will only have a measure ofcertainty and control when you
embrace it.
Until next time, thank you forbeing part of the Inner Game of
Change community.
(55:14):
I am Ali Jammah and this is theInner Game of Change podcast.
Host
Ali Juma
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