May 31, 2025 • 44 mins
Welcome to The Inner Game of Change, the podcast where we explore the unseen forces that shape how we lead, adapt, and thrive in the face of change and transformation.
In this episode, I am joined by the insightful and bold Amy Yackowski—founder of Painted Porch Strategies and a passionate advocate for building shift-ready teams and leaders.
Together, we dive into the critical, often overlooked period before change officially begins—a space Amy calls Phase Zero. Long before the project plan kicks in, before kickoff meetings and comms plans, Phase Zero is where emotional readiness, mindset, and organisational truth-telling take shape. It is the terrain where insight is gathered, assumptions are surfaced, and success—or struggle—starts to take root.
We explore why skipping Phase Zero can derail even well-planned change, how to navigate time constraints, and how AI tools like Copilot can surface early insights. Amy also shares how Stoic thinking shapes her work and why change must be personalised—not one-size-fits-all.
Whether you are a project lead, a change advisor, or just navigating another wave of workplace evolution, this episode offers a fresh lens and some very practical tools to help you start smart—right from Phase Zero.
I am grateful to have Amy chatting with me today.
About Amy
"Oh, Shift". It lands on the steps of your business and with your teams every day, challenging you to adapt.
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😧 Are you taken by surprise, stepping in it, and making a mess?
😎 Or are you able to spot, solve, and pivot with confidence?
When these shifts hit your plan - and change is not just desired, but demanded - how ready is your team to navigate with clarity and purpose to make it happen?
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With 20 years of expertise in operational optimization and team dynamics, backed by certifications in Emotional Intelligence and Change Management, the Painted Porch team uses Stoic principles and operational best practices to:
- Analyze your processes, culture, and communication 🚥
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
you know, if we use like the ad car model, they had
(00:02):
awareness and desire, but theydidn't necessarily have
capabilities to effectivelyengage in this game of change.
Change is not simply justexecuting project tasks,
creating training materials and,you know, doing UAT, testing or
validating your ideas.
It first starts with gettinginto the right mindset of change
(00:24):
and understanding what theimpact, and the emotional impact
specifically, change canpresent to anyone.
So when we talk about this ideaof phase zero, we really focus
on helping prepare individuals,teams, leaders and the
organization for this changethat they're going to embark on
(00:45):
through their mindset, throughthe ways that they're
communicating with one another,and for the ways in which they
are collaborating and workingtogether to challenge these
stated norms, these ways ofdoing in pursuit of something
greater, something better,something new, something
possible something possible.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Welcome to the Inner Game of Change, the podcast
where we explore the unseenforces that shape how we lead,
adapt and thrive in the face ofchange and transformation.
I am your host, ali Juma.
In this episode, I am joined bythe insightful and bold Amy
Akowski, founder of PaintedPorch Strategies and a
passionate advocate for buildingshift-ready teams and leaders.
(01:38):
Together, we dive into theircritical, often overlooked
period before change officiallybegins, a space Amy calls Phase
Zero.
Phase Zero is where emotionalreadiness, mindset and
organizational truth-tellingtake place.
It is the terrain where insightis gathered, assumptions are
(02:01):
surfaced and success or strugglestarts to take root.
We explore why skipping phasezero can derail even
well-planned change, how tonavigate time constraints and
how AI tools like Copilot canservice early insights.
Amy also shares how stoicthinking shapes her work and why
(02:23):
change must be personalized,not one size fits all.
Whether you are a project lead,a change manager or just
navigating another wave ofworkplace evolution, this
episode offers a fresh lens andsome very practical tools to
help you start smart right fromphase zero.
(02:44):
I am grateful to have Amychatting with me today.
Well, amy, thank you very muchfor joining me in the Inner Game
of Change podcast.
I am very grateful for yourtime today.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Thank you, ali, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Thank you very much, amy.
We will talk about an importantphase of any change in any
organization actually anywherewhich is what happens before the
beginning and what happensbefore the change.
At time we usually sort ofoverlook, and when we do that
(03:23):
it's got consequences.
You call it phase zero, so takeit away.
What is a phase zero of aproject?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, first I will say I'll talk about the why
behind phase zero.
I might be getting a littlecart before the horse, but
that's kind of what phase zerois right.
So part of the reason why Icame up with this idea and this
premise of phase zero is becauseyou're exactly right.
Often what happens mybackground has been in software
(03:54):
implementation and operationalchange for about 20 years and
often when we think about change, we just fire the gun, we have
kickoff and we start planning,doing deciding, testing,
executing, training.
All of those things kick offright at this initial phase
phase zero.
(04:15):
But what I kept seeing time andtime again over these 20 years
of working alongside theseorganizations, that, as eager as
they were to possibly embark onthis new journey to upgrade
their new technology to optimizetheir operations, they
recognize that what they had,what they were doing, what they
were using wasn't working today,even though they had, you know,
(04:38):
if we use, like the ad carmodel, they had awareness and
desire, but they didn'tnecessarily have capabilities to
effectively engage in this gameof change.
Change is not simply justexecuting project tasks,
creating training materials and,you know, doing UAT testing or
validating your ideas.
(04:58):
It first starts with gettinginto the right mindset of change
and understanding what theimpact and the emotional impact
specifically, change can presentto anyone.
So when we talk about this ideaof phase zero, we really focus
on helping prepare individuals,teams, leaders and the
(05:19):
organization for this changethat they're going to embark on
through their mindset, throughthe ways that they're
communicating with one anotherand for the ways in which they
are collaborating and workingtogether to challenge these
stated norms, these ways ofdoing in pursuit of something
greater, something better,something new, something
possible.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I like that.
I've actually done projectsbefore and I haven't thought
about it as a phase zero.
I thought about it as Iremember a timeline that I built
maybe three, four years ago andI called them minus week minus
four, week minus three.
I came up with this but I wasinspired by by a book called
Persuasion by Robert Cialdini,and because he talked about what
(06:05):
happens before you influence inyour messaging.
So there's a phase before that.
And then I discovered also thatthe military does this all the
time.
They gather intelligence, theyunderstand.
I also know that sports teamsdo that as well.
They gather intelligence, theyunderstand their playing
conditions.
(06:26):
But they all seem to have aluxury which we don't usually
have in the workplace, which istime, because time in the
workplace usually equalsresources and cost.
Most projects somebody's got anidea, you know.
They gather a group of projectpeople and then get on with it
(06:48):
and they give a timeline of astart and an end, and so we're
always constrained by all ofthese forces.
What are some of the ways tonavigate our way around those
constraints at the workplace?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
at the workplace.
Oh man, that's a good question.
I would say you're right inthat often in business time is
not necessarily on your side.
Be it changes in the market,your competition demand,
whatever might be happening, youknow, customer, customer
changes, worker attrition, allof those elements pile up to
basically make it appear as ifyou don't have time to plan, you
(07:31):
don't have time to prepare.
I would counter that and saythat if you don't take the time
to prepare, the time will bemade for you once you hit a
certain threshold in any changeinitiative that you are pursuing
.
I would say I don't have thestats right in front of me, but
(07:51):
historically most changes ofsome sort big, large, broad,
narrow they typically are nothappening by their, you know,
spaghetti on a wall, deadline,go live, due date, whatever was
set and often they result inhaving cost overruns.
And most of the time thosehappen because of the lack of
(08:14):
planning.
And when I say the lack ofplanning and preparation, you
can have the most beautifulproject plan out there Shout out
to my PMPs who create gorgeousproject plans.
But that project plan and allof those tasks and those
activities and checking them offare not an indication of change
success, because changeultimately, at the end of the
(08:37):
day, is 100% contingent on anindividual, a team, a leader's
and an organization's ability toeffectively change.
And when I say change, it's notjust starting to use a new
system or starting to execute anew process, but it's actually
this transition, thisadaptability from what is known,
(09:00):
what's familiar, what's safe,what's repeatable, to something
that is unknown, untested,uncharted waters that they're
going down.
Time is going to demand itself.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Whether you plan for it or not, it's going to show up
in your business one way oranother, and I always think, amy
, that although time isimportant and although sometimes
a change manager, for example,in some situations,
unfortunately they become anafterthought they bring them
when the project starts orsometimes even after the start I
(09:31):
always think that if you are anexperienced change professional
, you always know that time isnot going to be on your side.
And so the situation is thatwhat capabilities do you need to
bring to the table to reallymanage that?
You know navigate around thetime constraint, because time is
(09:55):
one of the three constraintsfor a project manager.
That's what they live by.
You know you've got your time,budget and scope and we're going
to have to respect that.
So I always think that ifyou're in a good space, as in
your capabilities, you canalways find ways to create your
own phase zero, even though theproject started, because usually
(10:17):
Often I have to.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Often I have to, yeah yeah, because the preparation
hasn't been done.
And now there's a realizationthat either we want to try to
get a little bit more ahead ofthis than what we have to date
or we're starting to see wherethings are maybe starting to go
a little bit sideways on it.
So I think it's an excellentquestion about, like, how do you
(10:39):
be with the parameters that youwork with?
And I think, for me, while Ihave my ideal and I'm sure
people will argue with you thatI will I will definitely push
for as much time and as muchresources that I can get in the
span of time that I have.
But I I think the biggest thingis to number one right out the
(11:02):
gate establish with theorganization you know what's the
level of disruption that youare willing to take on within
your organization, and mostorganizations will say little to
none, but that's impossiblewhen it comes to change.
So, first and foremost,establishing like, what are we
working with here?
And then finding ways to workwithin that.
But one of the key things thatwe like to do really upfront, to
(11:23):
try to get ahead of it asquickly as possible and to start
doing change.
Well, in any project is to get apulse check of where people are
at, so understanding what youknow.
That can be a combination of arisk audit.
But we also look at it throughthe lens of the individuals and
the teams and their mindset.
(11:44):
How are they feeling about thework that they're doing?
How are they showing up?
Are they feeling burned out?
Are they feeling overwhelmed?
Do they feel like they have thesupport and resources that they
need to be successful?
How are they working as a team?
Do they work together or not?
So much Is it like a team inname only?
How are they no-transcript whatyou know, what, what your risks
(12:34):
and what your constraints mightbe?
That doesn't mean the projectsget stopped.
Some of them they're going to.
They're going to happen.
Come hell or high water.
These projects are going tomove forward.
But the sooner that we canrecognize where there are
opportunities, where there arechallenges, obstacles and risk,
then we can put together a muchmore I'm not going to say
aggressive plan, but thoughtfuland intentional plan to help
(12:58):
prepare these people for change,because that's ultimately what
all of this is about.
The change going to a newtechnology or implementing a new
operational procedure that youhave should all be in service to
how your employees, how yourorganization, effectively
executes what it does, and thatis all predicated on people
(13:19):
doing the things that you needthem to do, but that they also
feel confident and capable to do.
And so creating that contextand that awareness of where are
we at now we know what we can do, going forward is key.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
And that context and all of this intelligence
gathering, they turn intoinsight and those pieces of
insight they should color andinfluence the design of your
change adoption strategy.
Without that, it will be acookie cutter, that you will
(13:51):
actually be applying somethingthat doesn't quite fit, and just
because you're driven by time.
The other thing that I look at,amy and I need your input into
this One of the most importantthings is actually to look at
the leadership of that impactedteam.
I pay a lot of attention tothat because and you can come
(14:15):
across different types the typethat are really interested in
the trend and the type that says, well, I'm busy, where do you
want me to be there?
And then you've got the thirdtype, which is usually absent
and there, and then we just workon the team.
What's your take on that?
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Well, you're right, there are all kinds.
We can't we can't create theperfect leaders, especially in
constrained conditions, but whatwe can do is lean into
curiosity and conversation.
I always like to say that whenresistance presents itself or
even apathy either one, whenresistance and apathy presents
(14:58):
itself, that's just the surfacemanifestation of something
deeper that is going on withinthat individual.
We talk a lot about in ourprograms and in our training
about understanding thedifferent styles, the different
change personalities that youmight have within your
organization, and once you gaina little bit more awareness and
(15:20):
clarity into what thesedifferent styles are, it helps
you better know what they needand how to engage with them and
how to have those conversations.
Yes, there is definitelyleaders that are too busy.
I have one that's happeningright now where they are too
busy for me and the change thatwe need to have done, or they
(15:43):
would just prefer it to happenand they don't.
They're not really involved init, they don't get their hands
dirty and how I navigate those.
I am, I am stubborn, I'm Polish, so I do try to force a little
bit.
See how much I can.
I can get here, but also I liketo just have those one-on-one
conversations with them tounderstand a little bit more.
(16:06):
You know, yes, you're pushingback, you're saying there's not
time.
What's really going on here?
What?
What is it?
What is it that you feel is atrisk?
What do you feel is not clear?
You know it's having theseconversations leaning into that
curiosity and through doing thatyou you're not going to
necessarily get them tocompletely flip and be 100
(16:27):
percent on your side, but atleast you provided an
opportunity to create somecontext and alignment on what it
is we're trying to achieve andwhy it's not consensus always.
We're never going to getconsensus when it comes to
change, but if we can create alittle bit more context and
alignment with what we're tryingto achieve and the importance
(16:48):
of their role within it, usuallyI can get them to come along to
my side.
It takes a little bit of time,I will say, and maybe it's just
my persistence and squeakywellness, but they definitely
eventually come around.
But outside of that, I reallylean into creating strong change
networks within any project.
And those change networks,while they can include leaders,
(17:11):
they are not made up of leaders.
They are made up withindividuals who are boots on the
ground, doing the work, part ofteams and that in a sense
doesn't I don't want to say itcircumvents the leader,
especially if a leader isresistant, but it creates that
network of awareness, network ofcollaboration that if it had
(17:33):
been a top down directive, youmight not get as much.
There's an author, greg Sattel.
He wrote a book called Cascadesand he talks about how change
in society has often happened,especially through different
movements or revolutions thathave happened throughout history
(17:53):
.
And the way he talks about, ashe says, small groups loosely
connected, aligned to a sharedpurpose or vision.
And that's the type of mindsetthat we like to try to create
with the culture, theorganizational, the
organizational culture approach,with these networks that we
like to build within any projectthat we're creating.
So it's not reliant solely onleadership top down, but we have
(18:15):
awareness where we might havesome resistance and lean into
helping create the support thatthey might need, so that way
they can come along for the ride.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I like that idea of creating those conversations
with the leaders.
And you know, coming from aplace of curiosity Because these
professionals they're alreadybusy with their usual operations
and so they should be.
But you also, during thatconversation, you made me think
that I talked to a group ofproject managers maybe a couple
(18:47):
of months ago, where they wantedto know more about what a
change manager can do, becausefor them, unfortunately, change
managers are just writing acouple of communication pieces
and all of that and I'm thinking, well, that's a good start.
I mean, that's fine, they cando that, but let me take you
through what they can do for youto help you manage your project
(19:09):
better.
And then one of the things Iwas sharing with them is that,
from now on, promise me thatevery time you've got a project
and you've got the luxury ofhaving a change manager helping
you, I was asking the projectmanager to sit with the change
manager and ask them tell me howyou know the intelligence and
(19:30):
the insight that you gathered sofar and why this particular
change strategy for thisparticular project.
You should be interested in howwe design it and what I'm trying
to do here, trying to createthose conversations.
So the project manager.
We need to educate the projectmanager, as well as the leader,
about the importance of thesepieces, and so they become
(19:54):
expectations, and I think thatcan nudge a lot of change
managers to pay attention tothis particular critical period
of time.
The other thing is that Ialways find it fascinating and I
ask the question when was thelast change that happened to
this particular group and whatwas it?
Who was leading it?
What was the sentiment?
All of this insight canactually help me whether this
(20:16):
team is going to be open orclosed, because this is all
historical data.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yeah, 100%.
You know I have in my LinkedInprofile a headline.
One of the fun roles that I sayI do because you know you can
make things up it's LinkedInheadlines.
One of the fun ones I like isorganizational anthropologists,
and I think that's very true andwe think about these change
(20:42):
leaders, change advisors, changepartners that you bring into
any project.
Advisors you know, changepartners that you bring into any
project.
Our primary role is not commsand training that is some of the
work that we often do, but weare really there.
One of the primary reasons weexist is to help prepare the
organization and its people tosuccessfully change, and the
(21:04):
people is the key piece of it.
It's not about checking offtasks and to do's.
It's really creating theenvironment and the opportunity
for people to lean in, to engage, and I like to say, have the
confidence, courage andcuriosity to change.
And that's really what, from mylens, my role is.
(21:24):
In any, in any engagement thatI work within, I am a partner, I
am an ally and I'm an advisorto this larger organizational
goal that they're trying toachieve.
And I love your part abouthaving the project manager kind
of linked in with the changeadvisor, change consultants or
(21:45):
change manager that's on theteam, because they do need to
work in tandem with one another.
They are partners in the sharedsuccess of the organization.
They're just working indifferent, I'll say work streams
or lanes, but everything thateach of them do is very much
reliant and contingent and insupport of the other.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Sometimes I cross some lines which usually people
in the business of change don'tdo.
I even make a full assessmentabout how the project team is
operating, because I stronglybelieve that the way we operate
also will impact the outcome ofthe project and the change.
(22:24):
Another thing that I usually do, which is I exactly have the
same message for the leaders.
When I sit with the leaders, Iask them next time you've got a
project and you've got a change,you will have to ask the
questions to their project team.
Walk me through your rationaleof choosing this particular
change strategy or others.
(22:45):
You will have to be interestedin how much work has been done
to understand your team.
So I'm trying to prepare therecipient of the change as well,
and and they find that reallyhelpful because for them, oh, I
didn't even know that I need toask all of these questions.
I thought these guys will willneed to do what they need to do,
and for me, but that isimpacting your team, and so you
(23:09):
should be keenly interestedbecause the change has got
repercussions Like.
I strongly believe that there isa strong correlation between
the way we manage the change andemployee engagement, and it
happens all the time.
We ask people about how theyfeel about the change and the
surveys and I really like thataround the courage, curiosity
(23:34):
and confidence that youmentioned.
That can be your next article,amy, to talk about that.
So there you go, you're welcomeIn your experience.
Does that mean that frameworklike the ProSci and the Carta
and all of these models?
They do touch on that, but doyou think they need to be more
(23:56):
overt about those things andperhaps be as overt as a phase
zero?
Speaker 1 (24:02):
That's why I get in trouble for saying this.
Yes, and there are some greatinsights that you can gain from
those different methodologies,but I would say that within both
of them they are oftentimesvery rigid and also,
(24:23):
surprisingly, even though it'sdealing with people, they feel
that it can be very predictive.
If you do X, y will predictive.
If you do X, y will happen.
If you do, if you do a, b willhappen.
And that's rarely the case whenit comes to dealing with
individuals.
We are complex, we are diverse.
We all interpret, believe, haveexperiences with change
differently.
So, even for me, with the wayI've structured my painted porch
(24:47):
, our strategies, if you will,we pull from all of them,
because all of them do havegreat insights and and tools and
methodology that you can use.
But we really pull from many.
We use ProSci, we use Kotter, Iuse LeanChange.
I have some others that I leanon from MHS and from some
(25:09):
research done by Harvard,research like organizational
development type of approaches.
All of those together createwhat we like to do when we
approach change.
I like to say I have 10 kind ofkeystone things that we want to
ensure in any change projectthat we are making sure we do to
some capacity, but the detailsof the how and the when we
(25:32):
achieve each of them really doesneed to be something that is
more agile in its approach.
It does need to be adaptivebecause, week over week, the
context is going to shift alittle bit.
The needs that are present,that are necessary at this
moment in the project, are goingto need to pivot, and we need
to be able to be flexible enoughto pivot along with it, as
(25:53):
opposed to saying like nope,nope, nope, we're at stage two
and we have to now.
You know we have to completeall these things before we can
move to stage three.
It's like what is the businessneed in this moment in order to
ensure that we're makingmeaningful progress forward?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I like that and I want to shift gear, amy.
And then do you mind sharingwith us some examples where you
think phase zero worked andperhaps an example where it
didn't work?
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I will say, you know thissometimes is a little tough.
I'll be completely candid, ali,when I get asked oh, can you
give like the ROI of this?
Or how do we know if doing thiswork is going to yield the
desired outcomes that we wish tohave?
And I often like to look at itin the inverse, in that we I
(26:46):
again, I've been doing this.
You've been doing this for along time, you know, over, I
think you said, 15 years or so.
I've been doing this since, oh,six, and over that period of
time I have regularly seen thesame patterns recurring time and
time again in projects where weget in a room really smart
(27:07):
people, you know, the experts intheir field, the experts in
their department, maybe even thehighest achievers in their role
.
We get them in a room and westart to think about and design
something different and fastforward six to nine months.
We get to the other side of itand we find out that we've
recreated exactly what we havetoday, and once we do that, we
(27:29):
end up reverting back to whatwe've already done, or the new
change, the new technology,whatever it might be, is more of
a burden than an enabler.
We get into meetings where wecan't make a decision, we can't
get to agreement, we can't getalignment on what needs to
happen next.
We just keep circling thewagons, the budgets run over,
(27:49):
you know.
We just keep bumping into thesevery similar barriers that we
see time and time again, whereasif we take the time to help
individuals get comfortable withuncertainty, to practice a
little bit of failure, to workon how they give and receive
feedback with one another, to,in essence, stick their neck out
, to challenge sacred cows, todevelop new ways of thinking or
(28:13):
doing, to strip away the how wedo it from the why and the what
we're trying to achieve byputting the work in there early,
that will allow for a lotquicker and more effective
execution of the project.
Once you do officially have thatkickoff and all those smart
people start to be gathered intothose rooms, it's really, in
(28:37):
essence I don't want tooversimplify it, but it's really
learning how to people withother people.
That is effectively what ischange readiness, this phase
zero, work.
This is the work that often isoverlooked in any organization.
We tend to focus on technicalskills.
I come from staffing, so it'show to be a better recruiter,
(28:58):
how to find more leads, how toconvert them quicker, how to
calculate margins right, all ofthose pieces.
We focus on the technicalpieces of success, but really
where, as organizations, wereable to most effectively adapt
and pivot and change andinnovate is outside of those
(29:18):
technical skills of our job.
It's really the peopling withinand alongside one another one
another.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I like that.
I'm not too sure if you've,maybe you have.
There's a principle called thepremortem principle, which is
applicable in the hospitals,predominantly in health I can't
remember the name of the author.
That sort of brought that intothe project management world,
brought that into the projectmanagement world.
So basically, before a project,we do what we call a pre-mortem
(29:52):
, which is we ask the questions,two, three critical questions.
So we look in the future and wethink your leader is actually
standing in front of thesteering committee and the
project failed miserably.
And then what would they betalking about?
And then we look at thosethings.
I always find this exercise asan unhappy title as it is, I
(30:18):
always find it reallyinteresting because it basically
helps us almost foresee some ofthe issues that can be
encountered, and then they willlist them as sort of the risk
that we're going to have tomitigate over time and
neutralize this pre-mortemexercise.
I see that in the phase zero aswell.
(30:38):
And the other thing that youmentioned, you know, around the
return on investment, the zerospace.
It's actually pretty clear thatyou know so many projects will
have a cost overrun and all ofthese things, and that's all due
because we haven't spent a lotof time understanding the impact
(31:01):
and I strongly believe thatprojects fail purely because we
haven't understood the impactsof these changes.
I mean, you look at even ingovernments, you know policies
change, policies fail is becausewe haven't understood the
impacts of these policies andthe change space is the same.
(31:22):
So phase zero is one of thosecritical aspects that can give
you clear direction if theproject is going to struggle or
not.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Yes, absolutely, and actually I will.
I'll give credit to I don'tknow who, who introduced it from
you know more modern projectmanagement, change management
principle, but our company iscalled Painted Port Strategies
and the name of the company is anod to the philosophy of
stoicism, which is thephilosophy of the streets back
(31:56):
in ancient days and thephilosophy of the everyman, of
the people.
But one of the premises thatthey talk about as part of the
stoic philosophy, one of theircore principles, in addition to
the dichotomy of control, whatis within your complete control
to ensure and to execute.
But one of their other ones,it's called premeditatio malorum
.
And premeditatio malorum isjust that it is thinking into
(32:21):
some extent, what's the worstthat can happen, what could go
wrong.
But it's not in an exercise tobe a Debbie Downer to say here's
all the reasons why weshouldn't do this, but instead
it's meant to be the exactinverse where we think about, to
your exact point, where wethink about, where could we have
failure points.
We like to envision this like aroadmap.
(32:42):
So where are you going toencounter obstacles, detours,
alternate routes, boulders inthe road?
What are those things?
How are they going to presentthemselves?
And we do that not again, notto say what we got to pump the
brakes, we got to turn aroundand go back, but instead so we
say, ok, what's our plan?
How are we going to plan forwhen these things potentially
(33:05):
happen?
So that way, when you are inthe thick, you are you know,
know, you're on the road, yourjourney is kicking off, the
clock is ticking, the budget isstarting to you know, the
money's starting to go out.
You're keeping an eye on all ofthat.
That way, when and if thatsituation does present itself,
you already have a plan in place.
You're not trying to make thedecision under excessive urgency
(33:30):
, constraints, time, etc.
You already have a plan.
You're making this decisionvery clear headed, because
you've already planned for whatneeds to be done in this
instance.
But I think you touched on onething, which is the hesitancy to
do the impact report, and Ithink that all goes back to the
(33:50):
courage to have uncomfortableconversations, and that's really
one of the keys that we like tofocus on in this phase.
Zero is getting comfortablecalling things on the mat,
versus pretending like itdoesn't exist or figuring out
that you'll deal with it whenyou need to deal with it.
Instead, it's having thecourage to say how ready are we
(34:13):
really, how prepared are wereally?
And when it comes to that ROI,you're right.
It's ultimately as much as welike to think as organizations
that we are the exception to theabout 23% success rate, as
much's as much as I like tothink that the organization is
an exception.
The natural next question, notto be condescending, but it says
(34:35):
what makes you so confidentthat you can Like what work have
you done?
What preparation have you made?
What capabilities can youconfidently speak to with your
teams and your leaders and yourorganization that would ensure
that everything is going to gosmoothly when you start this
(34:56):
project.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Wonderful.
I want to share with yousomething that I did three weeks
ago actually, just because Iwas preparing for this podcast
podcast and I did.
Somebody asked me to look at achange plan.
I'm not working on it, but thenthey wanted to critique it
externally, and then I used.
(35:18):
I asked them to include me andgive me access to all the
information and previousinformation as well, and so I
asked in a naughty way, I askedco-pilot at Microsoft, I gave it
all the information and then Idid exactly what you did.
What you're talking about is aphase zero.
If I'm going to implement aproject for this team, walk me
(35:41):
through some of the insight outof the chats, out of all these
conversations, the emails, and Ithought, oh okay, well, that's
another tool that changemanagers can use to give them a
little bit more information, andit will neutralize the element
of time constraint.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, you know, that's where technology can very
much be partner in the changeeffort.
I've been doing a lot of workthis summer trying to
familiarize myself more with howI could leverage AI as an
assistant in this change process, and that's one of the great
(36:25):
ways to do it, even rethinkingthe way I execute assessments to
do it.
Even rethinking the way Iexecute assessments, knowing
that I don't have to have thembe so, I'll say, formulaically
restricted in the way even it'sstructured, you know, having a
scale of one to five or agree,disagree, you could literally
just ask open-ended questionsand get free text answers and
(36:48):
from that put it all into an AItool, whether it's Copilot, or
you create your own GPT, forexample in ChatGPT, and you can
make sense of what otherwise canappear to be just a bunch of
disparate information.
Another thing that is reallycool that I've started to play
around with is when it comes towho is involved in a project,
(37:12):
the different project players,both at the you know sponsor,
the project team, your changeambassadors, your leaders,
creating some personas withinthem, within your GPT or your AI
tool, and then, when you'represented with any particular
need or a situation that ariseswithin the project, or even a
(37:35):
communication.
You can actually ask the toolto say, okay, based on the
personality of this projectmanager, for example, that I've
structured what might theirbiggest, what might they might
what they ask about, what mighttheir biggest pushbacks be?
Where might they be hesitant,where might they be leaning in
(37:57):
and getting a little bit moreinformation and insight from
that, so that way, when youthink about the communications
and the connection in those,those conversations that you're
crafting, you can lean on havinga little bit of that
demographic, psychographic infoto help inform how you need to
communicate and shareinformation with them.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
And it's brilliant.
I've done this many times now.
I've actually analyzed all ofmy stakeholders, the senior ones
.
So I've asked I use CoPilotpredominantly at work and I ask
CoPilot to look the emails, thecommunication, the chats and
then assess to me when I talk tothis senior person what do they
(38:38):
value in the way theycommunicate?
You know and so and you are ahuman you're going to have to
validate does that make sense?
To me and most of the time, thebeautiful thing about the tool
is now and it will get better itwill actually give you evidence
of why it's come up with thisassessment based on the words
and all of that.
Usually that takes ages toactually decipher and sometimes
(39:04):
it's an opinion, not a fact, andso I think that's going to be
another layer that will actuallyhelp us move forward.
I am aware of the time we arecoming close to the podcast.
I'm thoroughly enjoying this.
Usually, the question that Iask my guests Amy, what would be
your advice to people like mein the business of changing
(39:27):
communication to walk away withwhen it comes to phase zero of a
project?
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Well, I'll say I'll make a more of a general
statement with this is thatrecognizing that people are
unique, that we are not one sizefits all when it comes to how
you prepare for, plan andexecute your change.
(39:54):
Keep that in mind.
Whether it's something thatyou've more formally assess,
there's ways to suss out, youknow the different type of
change personalities or thechange styles that you might
have within your organization oron your team, but take the time
to learn that, so that way,when you are presenting and
(40:14):
communicating change, thatyou're not trying to treat this
as a one size fits all and that,ultimately, change is an
individual endeavor supported byan organizational effort.
And so making sure that, whilewe don't need to create custom,
custom engagement, customexperiences for each person, we
(40:36):
do need to keep it in mind thatwe all interpret and have
different beliefs and opinionsand approaches to how we do
change and what change means tous, both personally and
professionally.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
I love that Change is an individual endeavor
supported by organizationaleffort.
I love that that should be yourtitle for your next book.
I should write that down.
Yeah, yeah, there you go.
Another one.
You're welcome, Amy.
It's been a pleasure having youin my podcast, the Inner Game
of Change.
I hope I can get you back inthe future and perhaps tackle
(41:16):
this idea of technology, and Ithink by the time we're going to
talk about this, hopefully AIwill be part of our workflow
going forward.
How would people connect withyou, Amy?
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, so a couple different ways.
You could go to our website,which is painted porch
strategiescom.
You can also just email me, amy, at painted porch strategiescom
, and I'd be happy to connectwith you.
I always like to say, even if,if you're someone who's simply
change, curious, you areinterested in this thing called
change, or you know that you'reabout to embark on a project, or
you have one that maybe you'restarting with and you're a
little leery about where you'reat in your phase, we can always
(42:04):
connect it.
I'm happy to help shine alittle light and provide a
little guidance for you so thatway you, your team and the
organization can be successfuland come to the end of the first
step in the journey morereinvigorated revitalized and
(42:26):
excited for what's possible.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
That's beautifully put.
Until next time, amy, stay welland stay safe.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
Thank you, stay well and stay safe.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Thank you for listening.
If you found this episodevaluable, remember to subscribe
to stay updated on upcomingepisodes.
Your support is trulyappreciated and, by sharing this
podcast with your colleagues,friends and fellow change
practitioners, it can help mereach even more individuals and
professionals who can benefitfrom these discussions.
(42:53):
Remember, and in my opinion,change is an enduring force and
you will only have a measure ofcertainty and control when you
embrace it.
Until next time, thank you forbeing part of the Inner Game of
Change community.
I am Ali Jammah and this is theInner Game of Change community.
I am Ali Jammah and this is theInner Game of Change podcast.
you know, if we use like the ad car model, they had
(00:02):
awareness and desire, but theydidn't necessarily have
capabilities to effectivelyengage in this game of change.
Change is not simply justexecuting project tasks,
creating training materials and,you know, doing UAT, testing or
validating your ideas.
It first starts with gettinginto the right mindset of change
(00:24):
and understanding what theimpact, and the emotional impact
specifically, change canpresent to anyone.
So when we talk about this ideaof phase zero, we really focus
on helping prepare individuals,teams, leaders and the
organization for this changethat they're going to embark on
(00:45):
through their mindset, throughthe ways that they're
communicating with one another,and for the ways in which they
are collaborating and workingtogether to challenge these
stated norms, these ways ofdoing in pursuit of something
greater, something better,something new, something
possible something possible.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Welcome to the Inner Game of Change, the podcast
where we explore the unseenforces that shape how we lead,
adapt and thrive in the face ofchange and transformation.
I am your host, ali Juma.
In this episode, I am joined bythe insightful and bold Amy
Akowski, founder of PaintedPorch Strategies and a
passionate advocate for buildingshift-ready teams and leaders.
(01:38):
Together, we dive into theircritical, often overlooked
period before change officiallybegins, a space Amy calls Phase
Zero.
Phase Zero is where emotionalreadiness, mindset and
organizational truth-tellingtake place.
It is the terrain where insightis gathered, assumptions are
(02:01):
surfaced and success or strugglestarts to take root.
We explore why skipping phasezero can derail even
well-planned change, how tonavigate time constraints and
how AI tools like Copilot canservice early insights.
Amy also shares how stoicthinking shapes her work and why
(02:23):
change must be personalized,not one size fits all.
Whether you are a project lead,a change manager or just
navigating another wave ofworkplace evolution, this
episode offers a fresh lens andsome very practical tools to
help you start smart right fromphase zero.
(02:44):
I am grateful to have Amychatting with me today.
Well, amy, thank you very muchfor joining me in the Inner Game
of Change podcast.
I am very grateful for yourtime today.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Thank you, ali, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Thank you very much, amy.
We will talk about an importantphase of any change in any
organization actually anywherewhich is what happens before the
beginning and what happensbefore the change.
At time we usually sort ofoverlook, and when we do that
(03:23):
it's got consequences.
You call it phase zero, so takeit away.
What is a phase zero of aproject?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, first I will say I'll talk about the why
behind phase zero.
I might be getting a littlecart before the horse, but
that's kind of what phase zerois right.
So part of the reason why Icame up with this idea and this
premise of phase zero is becauseyou're exactly right.
Often what happens mybackground has been in software
(03:54):
implementation and operationalchange for about 20 years and
often when we think about change, we just fire the gun, we have
kickoff and we start planning,doing deciding, testing,
executing, training.
All of those things kick offright at this initial phase
phase zero.
(04:15):
But what I kept seeing time andtime again over these 20 years
of working alongside theseorganizations, that, as eager as
they were to possibly embark onthis new journey to upgrade
their new technology to optimizetheir operations, they
recognize that what they had,what they were doing, what they
were using wasn't working today,even though they had, you know,
(04:38):
if we use, like the ad carmodel, they had awareness and
desire, but they didn'tnecessarily have capabilities to
effectively engage in this gameof change.
Change is not simply justexecuting project tasks,
creating training materials and,you know, doing UAT testing or
validating your ideas.
(04:58):
It first starts with gettinginto the right mindset of change
and understanding what theimpact and the emotional impact
specifically, change can presentto anyone.
So when we talk about this ideaof phase zero, we really focus
on helping prepare individuals,teams, leaders and the
(05:19):
organization for this changethat they're going to embark on
through their mindset, throughthe ways that they're
communicating with one anotherand for the ways in which they
are collaborating and workingtogether to challenge these
stated norms, these ways ofdoing in pursuit of something
greater, something better,something new, something
possible.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I like that.
I've actually done projectsbefore and I haven't thought
about it as a phase zero.
I thought about it as Iremember a timeline that I built
maybe three, four years ago andI called them minus week minus
four, week minus three.
I came up with this but I wasinspired by by a book called
Persuasion by Robert Cialdini,and because he talked about what
(06:05):
happens before you influence inyour messaging.
So there's a phase before that.
And then I discovered also thatthe military does this all the
time.
They gather intelligence, theyunderstand.
I also know that sports teamsdo that as well.
They gather intelligence, theyunderstand their playing
conditions.
(06:26):
But they all seem to have aluxury which we don't usually
have in the workplace, which istime, because time in the
workplace usually equalsresources and cost.
Most projects somebody's got anidea, you know.
They gather a group of projectpeople and then get on with it
(06:48):
and they give a timeline of astart and an end, and so we're
always constrained by all ofthese forces.
What are some of the ways tonavigate our way around those
constraints at the workplace?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
at the workplace.
Oh man, that's a good question.
I would say you're right inthat often in business time is
not necessarily on your side.
Be it changes in the market,your competition demand,
whatever might be happening, youknow, customer, customer
changes, worker attrition, allof those elements pile up to
basically make it appear as ifyou don't have time to plan, you
(07:31):
don't have time to prepare.
I would counter that and saythat if you don't take the time
to prepare, the time will bemade for you once you hit a
certain threshold in any changeinitiative that you are pursuing
.
I would say I don't have thestats right in front of me, but
(07:51):
historically most changes ofsome sort big, large, broad,
narrow they typically are nothappening by their, you know,
spaghetti on a wall, deadline,go live, due date, whatever was
set and often they result inhaving cost overruns.
And most of the time thosehappen because of the lack of
(08:14):
planning.
And when I say the lack ofplanning and preparation, you
can have the most beautifulproject plan out there Shout out
to my PMPs who create gorgeousproject plans.
But that project plan and allof those tasks and those
activities and checking them offare not an indication of change
success, because changeultimately, at the end of the
(08:37):
day, is 100% contingent on anindividual, a team, a leader's
and an organization's ability toeffectively change.
And when I say change, it's notjust starting to use a new
system or starting to execute anew process, but it's actually
this transition, thisadaptability from what is known,
(09:00):
what's familiar, what's safe,what's repeatable, to something
that is unknown, untested,uncharted waters that they're
going down.
Time is going to demand itself.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Whether you plan for it or not, it's going to show up
in your business one way oranother, and I always think, amy
, that although time isimportant and although sometimes
a change manager, for example,in some situations,
unfortunately they become anafterthought they bring them
when the project starts orsometimes even after the start I
(09:31):
always think that if you are anexperienced change professional
, you always know that time isnot going to be on your side.
And so the situation is thatwhat capabilities do you need to
bring to the table to reallymanage that?
You know navigate around thetime constraint, because time is
(09:55):
one of the three constraintsfor a project manager.
That's what they live by.
You know you've got your time,budget and scope and we're going
to have to respect that.
So I always think that ifyou're in a good space, as in
your capabilities, you canalways find ways to create your
own phase zero, even though theproject started, because usually
(10:17):
Often I have to.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Often I have to, yeah yeah, because the preparation
hasn't been done.
And now there's a realizationthat either we want to try to
get a little bit more ahead ofthis than what we have to date
or we're starting to see wherethings are maybe starting to go
a little bit sideways on it.
So I think it's an excellentquestion about, like, how do you
(10:39):
be with the parameters that youwork with?
And I think, for me, while Ihave my ideal and I'm sure
people will argue with you thatI will I will definitely push
for as much time and as muchresources that I can get in the
span of time that I have.
But I I think the biggest thingis to number one right out the
(11:02):
gate establish with theorganization you know what's the
level of disruption that youare willing to take on within
your organization, and mostorganizations will say little to
none, but that's impossiblewhen it comes to change.
So, first and foremost,establishing like, what are we
working with here?
And then finding ways to workwithin that.
But one of the key things thatwe like to do really upfront, to
(11:23):
try to get ahead of it asquickly as possible and to start
doing change.
Well, in any project is to get apulse check of where people are
at, so understanding what youknow.
That can be a combination of arisk audit.
But we also look at it throughthe lens of the individuals and
the teams and their mindset.
(11:44):
How are they feeling about thework that they're doing?
How are they showing up?
Are they feeling burned out?
Are they feeling overwhelmed?
Do they feel like they have thesupport and resources that they
need to be successful?
How are they working as a team?
Do they work together or not?
So much Is it like a team inname only?
How are they no-transcript whatyou know, what, what your risks
(12:34):
and what your constraints mightbe?
That doesn't mean the projectsget stopped.
Some of them they're going to.
They're going to happen.
Come hell or high water.
These projects are going tomove forward.
But the sooner that we canrecognize where there are
opportunities, where there arechallenges, obstacles and risk,
then we can put together a muchmore I'm not going to say
aggressive plan, but thoughtfuland intentional plan to help
(12:58):
prepare these people for change,because that's ultimately what
all of this is about.
The change going to a newtechnology or implementing a new
operational procedure that youhave should all be in service to
how your employees, how yourorganization, effectively
executes what it does, and thatis all predicated on people
(13:19):
doing the things that you needthem to do, but that they also
feel confident and capable to do.
And so creating that contextand that awareness of where are
we at now we know what we can do, going forward is key.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
And that context and all of this intelligence
gathering, they turn intoinsight and those pieces of
insight they should color andinfluence the design of your
change adoption strategy.
Without that, it will be acookie cutter, that you will
(13:51):
actually be applying somethingthat doesn't quite fit, and just
because you're driven by time.
The other thing that I look at,amy and I need your input into
this One of the most importantthings is actually to look at
the leadership of that impactedteam.
I pay a lot of attention tothat because and you can come
(14:15):
across different types the typethat are really interested in
the trend and the type that says, well, I'm busy, where do you
want me to be there?
And then you've got the thirdtype, which is usually absent
and there, and then we just workon the team.
What's your take on that?
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Well, you're right, there are all kinds.
We can't we can't create theperfect leaders, especially in
constrained conditions, but whatwe can do is lean into
curiosity and conversation.
I always like to say that whenresistance presents itself or
even apathy either one, whenresistance and apathy presents
(14:58):
itself, that's just the surfacemanifestation of something
deeper that is going on withinthat individual.
We talk a lot about in ourprograms and in our training
about understanding thedifferent styles, the different
change personalities that youmight have within your
organization, and once you gaina little bit more awareness and
(15:20):
clarity into what thesedifferent styles are, it helps
you better know what they needand how to engage with them and
how to have those conversations.
Yes, there is definitelyleaders that are too busy.
I have one that's happeningright now where they are too
busy for me and the change thatwe need to have done, or they
(15:43):
would just prefer it to happenand they don't.
They're not really involved init, they don't get their hands
dirty and how I navigate those.
I am, I am stubborn, I'm Polish, so I do try to force a little
bit.
See how much I can.
I can get here, but also I liketo just have those one-on-one
conversations with them tounderstand a little bit more.
(16:06):
You know, yes, you're pushingback, you're saying there's not
time.
What's really going on here?
What?
What is it?
What is it that you feel is atrisk?
What do you feel is not clear?
You know it's having theseconversations leaning into that
curiosity and through doing thatyou you're not going to
necessarily get them tocompletely flip and be 100
(16:27):
percent on your side, but atleast you provided an
opportunity to create somecontext and alignment on what it
is we're trying to achieve andwhy it's not consensus always.
We're never going to getconsensus when it comes to
change, but if we can create alittle bit more context and
alignment with what we're tryingto achieve and the importance
(16:48):
of their role within it, usuallyI can get them to come along to
my side.
It takes a little bit of time,I will say, and maybe it's just
my persistence and squeakywellness, but they definitely
eventually come around.
But outside of that, I reallylean into creating strong change
networks within any project.
And those change networks,while they can include leaders,
(17:11):
they are not made up of leaders.
They are made up withindividuals who are boots on the
ground, doing the work, part ofteams and that in a sense
doesn't I don't want to say itcircumvents the leader,
especially if a leader isresistant, but it creates that
network of awareness, network ofcollaboration that if it had
(17:33):
been a top down directive, youmight not get as much.
There's an author, greg Sattel.
He wrote a book called Cascadesand he talks about how change
in society has often happened,especially through different
movements or revolutions thathave happened throughout history
(17:53):
.
And the way he talks about, ashe says, small groups loosely
connected, aligned to a sharedpurpose or vision.
And that's the type of mindsetthat we like to try to create
with the culture, theorganizational, the
organizational culture approach,with these networks that we
like to build within any projectthat we're creating.
So it's not reliant solely onleadership top down, but we have
(18:15):
awareness where we might havesome resistance and lean into
helping create the support thatthey might need, so that way
they can come along for the ride.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I like that idea of creating those conversations
with the leaders.
And you know, coming from aplace of curiosity Because these
professionals they're alreadybusy with their usual operations
and so they should be.
But you also, during thatconversation, you made me think
that I talked to a group ofproject managers maybe a couple
(18:47):
of months ago, where they wantedto know more about what a
change manager can do, becausefor them, unfortunately, change
managers are just writing acouple of communication pieces
and all of that and I'm thinking, well, that's a good start.
I mean, that's fine, they cando that, but let me take you
through what they can do for youto help you manage your project
(19:09):
better.
And then one of the things Iwas sharing with them is that,
from now on, promise me thatevery time you've got a project
and you've got the luxury ofhaving a change manager helping
you, I was asking the projectmanager to sit with the change
manager and ask them tell me howyou know the intelligence and
(19:30):
the insight that you gathered sofar and why this particular
change strategy for thisparticular project.
You should be interested in howwe design it and what I'm trying
to do here, trying to createthose conversations.
So the project manager.
We need to educate the projectmanager, as well as the leader,
about the importance of thesepieces, and so they become
(19:54):
expectations, and I think thatcan nudge a lot of change
managers to pay attention tothis particular critical period
of time.
The other thing is that Ialways find it fascinating and I
ask the question when was thelast change that happened to
this particular group and whatwas it?
Who was leading it?
What was the sentiment?
All of this insight canactually help me whether this
(20:16):
team is going to be open orclosed, because this is all
historical data.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yeah, 100%.
You know I have in my LinkedInprofile a headline.
One of the fun roles that I sayI do because you know you can
make things up it's LinkedInheadlines.
One of the fun ones I like isorganizational anthropologists,
and I think that's very true andwe think about these change
(20:42):
leaders, change advisors, changepartners that you bring into
any project.
Advisors you know, changepartners that you bring into any
project.
Our primary role is not commsand training that is some of the
work that we often do, but weare really there.
One of the primary reasons weexist is to help prepare the
organization and its people tosuccessfully change, and the
(21:04):
people is the key piece of it.
It's not about checking offtasks and to do's.
It's really creating theenvironment and the opportunity
for people to lean in, to engage, and I like to say, have the
confidence, courage andcuriosity to change.
And that's really what, from mylens, my role is.
(21:24):
In any, in any engagement thatI work within, I am a partner, I
am an ally and I'm an advisorto this larger organizational
goal that they're trying toachieve.
And I love your part abouthaving the project manager kind
of linked in with the changeadvisor, change consultants or
(21:45):
change manager that's on theteam, because they do need to
work in tandem with one another.
They are partners in the sharedsuccess of the organization.
They're just working indifferent, I'll say work streams
or lanes, but everything thateach of them do is very much
reliant and contingent and insupport of the other.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Sometimes I cross some lines which usually people
in the business of change don'tdo.
I even make a full assessmentabout how the project team is
operating, because I stronglybelieve that the way we operate
also will impact the outcome ofthe project and the change.
(22:24):
Another thing that I usually do, which is I exactly have the
same message for the leaders.
When I sit with the leaders, Iask them next time you've got a
project and you've got a change,you will have to ask the
questions to their project team.
Walk me through your rationaleof choosing this particular
change strategy or others.
(22:45):
You will have to be interestedin how much work has been done
to understand your team.
So I'm trying to prepare therecipient of the change as well,
and and they find that reallyhelpful because for them, oh, I
didn't even know that I need toask all of these questions.
I thought these guys will willneed to do what they need to do,
and for me, but that isimpacting your team, and so you
(23:09):
should be keenly interestedbecause the change has got
repercussions Like.
I strongly believe that there isa strong correlation between
the way we manage the change andemployee engagement, and it
happens all the time.
We ask people about how theyfeel about the change and the
surveys and I really like thataround the courage, curiosity
(23:34):
and confidence that youmentioned.
That can be your next article,amy, to talk about that.
So there you go, you're welcomeIn your experience.
Does that mean that frameworklike the ProSci and the Carta
and all of these models?
They do touch on that, but doyou think they need to be more
(23:56):
overt about those things andperhaps be as overt as a phase
zero?
Speaker 1 (24:02):
That's why I get in trouble for saying this.
Yes, and there are some greatinsights that you can gain from
those different methodologies,but I would say that within both
of them they are oftentimesvery rigid and also,
(24:23):
surprisingly, even though it'sdealing with people, they feel
that it can be very predictive.
If you do X, y will predictive.
If you do X, y will happen.
If you do, if you do a, b willhappen.
And that's rarely the case whenit comes to dealing with
individuals.
We are complex, we are diverse.
We all interpret, believe, haveexperiences with change
differently.
So, even for me, with the wayI've structured my painted porch
(24:47):
, our strategies, if you will,we pull from all of them,
because all of them do havegreat insights and and tools and
methodology that you can use.
But we really pull from many.
We use ProSci, we use Kotter, Iuse LeanChange.
I have some others that I leanon from MHS and from some
(25:09):
research done by Harvard,research like organizational
development type of approaches.
All of those together createwhat we like to do when we
approach change.
I like to say I have 10 kind ofkeystone things that we want to
ensure in any change projectthat we are making sure we do to
some capacity, but the detailsof the how and the when we
(25:32):
achieve each of them really doesneed to be something that is
more agile in its approach.
It does need to be adaptivebecause, week over week, the
context is going to shift alittle bit.
The needs that are present,that are necessary at this
moment in the project, are goingto need to pivot, and we need
to be able to be flexible enoughto pivot along with it, as
(25:53):
opposed to saying like nope,nope, nope, we're at stage two
and we have to now.
You know we have to completeall these things before we can
move to stage three.
It's like what is the businessneed in this moment in order to
ensure that we're makingmeaningful progress forward?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I like that and I want to shift gear, amy.
And then do you mind sharingwith us some examples where you
think phase zero worked andperhaps an example where it
didn't work?
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I will say, you know thissometimes is a little tough.
I'll be completely candid, ali,when I get asked oh, can you
give like the ROI of this?
Or how do we know if doing thiswork is going to yield the
desired outcomes that we wish tohave?
And I often like to look at itin the inverse, in that we I
(26:46):
again, I've been doing this.
You've been doing this for along time, you know, over, I
think you said, 15 years or so.
I've been doing this since, oh,six, and over that period of
time I have regularly seen thesame patterns recurring time and
time again in projects where weget in a room really smart
(27:07):
people, you know, the experts intheir field, the experts in
their department, maybe even thehighest achievers in their role
.
We get them in a room and westart to think about and design
something different and fastforward six to nine months.
We get to the other side of itand we find out that we've
recreated exactly what we havetoday, and once we do that, we
(27:29):
end up reverting back to whatwe've already done, or the new
change, the new technology,whatever it might be, is more of
a burden than an enabler.
We get into meetings where wecan't make a decision, we can't
get to agreement, we can't getalignment on what needs to
happen next.
We just keep circling thewagons, the budgets run over,
(27:49):
you know.
We just keep bumping into thesevery similar barriers that we
see time and time again, whereasif we take the time to help
individuals get comfortable withuncertainty, to practice a
little bit of failure, to workon how they give and receive
feedback with one another, to,in essence, stick their neck out
, to challenge sacred cows, todevelop new ways of thinking or
(28:13):
doing, to strip away the how wedo it from the why and the what
we're trying to achieve byputting the work in there early,
that will allow for a lotquicker and more effective
execution of the project.
Once you do officially have thatkickoff and all those smart
people start to be gathered intothose rooms, it's really, in
(28:37):
essence I don't want tooversimplify it, but it's really
learning how to people withother people.
That is effectively what ischange readiness, this phase
zero, work.
This is the work that often isoverlooked in any organization.
We tend to focus on technicalskills.
I come from staffing, so it'show to be a better recruiter,
(28:58):
how to find more leads, how toconvert them quicker, how to
calculate margins right, all ofthose pieces.
We focus on the technicalpieces of success, but really
where, as organizations, wereable to most effectively adapt
and pivot and change andinnovate is outside of those
(29:18):
technical skills of our job.
It's really the peopling withinand alongside one another one
another.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I like that.
I'm not too sure if you've,maybe you have.
There's a principle called thepremortem principle, which is
applicable in the hospitals,predominantly in health I can't
remember the name of the author.
That sort of brought that intothe project management world,
brought that into the projectmanagement world.
So basically, before a project,we do what we call a pre-mortem
(29:52):
, which is we ask the questions,two, three critical questions.
So we look in the future and wethink your leader is actually
standing in front of thesteering committee and the
project failed miserably.
And then what would they betalking about?
And then we look at thosethings.
I always find this exercise asan unhappy title as it is, I
(30:18):
always find it reallyinteresting because it basically
helps us almost foresee some ofthe issues that can be
encountered, and then they willlist them as sort of the risk
that we're going to have tomitigate over time and
neutralize this pre-mortemexercise.
I see that in the phase zero aswell.
(30:38):
And the other thing that youmentioned, you know, around the
return on investment, the zerospace.
It's actually pretty clear thatyou know so many projects will
have a cost overrun and all ofthese things, and that's all due
because we haven't spent a lotof time understanding the impact
(31:01):
and I strongly believe thatprojects fail purely because we
haven't understood the impactsof these changes.
I mean, you look at even ingovernments, you know policies
change, policies fail is becausewe haven't understood the
impacts of these policies andthe change space is the same.
(31:22):
So phase zero is one of thosecritical aspects that can give
you clear direction if theproject is going to struggle or
not.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Yes, absolutely, and actually I will.
I'll give credit to I don'tknow who, who introduced it from
you know more modern projectmanagement, change management
principle, but our company iscalled Painted Port Strategies
and the name of the company is anod to the philosophy of
stoicism, which is thephilosophy of the streets back
(31:56):
in ancient days and thephilosophy of the everyman, of
the people.
But one of the premises thatthey talk about as part of the
stoic philosophy, one of theircore principles, in addition to
the dichotomy of control, whatis within your complete control
to ensure and to execute.
But one of their other ones,it's called premeditatio malorum
.
And premeditatio malorum isjust that it is thinking into
(32:21):
some extent, what's the worstthat can happen, what could go
wrong.
But it's not in an exercise tobe a Debbie Downer to say here's
all the reasons why weshouldn't do this, but instead
it's meant to be the exactinverse where we think about, to
your exact point, where wethink about, where could we have
failure points.
We like to envision this like aroadmap.
(32:42):
So where are you going toencounter obstacles, detours,
alternate routes, boulders inthe road?
What are those things?
How are they going to presentthemselves?
And we do that not again, notto say what we got to pump the
brakes, we got to turn aroundand go back, but instead so we
say, ok, what's our plan?
How are we going to plan forwhen these things potentially
(33:05):
happen?
So that way, when you are inthe thick, you are you know,
know, you're on the road, yourjourney is kicking off, the
clock is ticking, the budget isstarting to you know, the
money's starting to go out.
You're keeping an eye on all ofthat.
That way, when and if thatsituation does present itself,
you already have a plan in place.
You're not trying to make thedecision under excessive urgency
(33:30):
, constraints, time, etc.
You already have a plan.
You're making this decisionvery clear headed, because
you've already planned for whatneeds to be done in this
instance.
But I think you touched on onething, which is the hesitancy to
do the impact report, and Ithink that all goes back to the
(33:50):
courage to have uncomfortableconversations, and that's really
one of the keys that we like tofocus on in this phase.
Zero is getting comfortablecalling things on the mat,
versus pretending like itdoesn't exist or figuring out
that you'll deal with it whenyou need to deal with it.
Instead, it's having thecourage to say how ready are we
(34:13):
really, how prepared are wereally?
And when it comes to that ROI,you're right.
It's ultimately as much as welike to think as organizations
that we are the exception to theabout 23% success rate, as
much's as much as I like tothink that the organization is
an exception.
The natural next question, notto be condescending, but it says
(34:35):
what makes you so confidentthat you can Like what work have
you done?
What preparation have you made?
What capabilities can youconfidently speak to with your
teams and your leaders and yourorganization that would ensure
that everything is going to gosmoothly when you start this
(34:56):
project.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Wonderful.
I want to share with yousomething that I did three weeks
ago actually, just because Iwas preparing for this podcast
podcast and I did.
Somebody asked me to look at achange plan.
I'm not working on it, but thenthey wanted to critique it
externally, and then I used.
(35:18):
I asked them to include me andgive me access to all the
information and previousinformation as well, and so I
asked in a naughty way, I askedco-pilot at Microsoft, I gave it
all the information and then Idid exactly what you did.
What you're talking about is aphase zero.
If I'm going to implement aproject for this team, walk me
(35:41):
through some of the insight outof the chats, out of all these
conversations, the emails, and Ithought, oh okay, well, that's
another tool that changemanagers can use to give them a
little bit more information, andit will neutralize the element
of time constraint.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, you know, that's where technology can very
much be partner in the changeeffort.
I've been doing a lot of workthis summer trying to
familiarize myself more with howI could leverage AI as an
assistant in this change process, and that's one of the great
(36:25):
ways to do it, even rethinkingthe way I execute assessments to
do it.
Even rethinking the way Iexecute assessments, knowing
that I don't have to have thembe so, I'll say, formulaically
restricted in the way even it'sstructured, you know, having a
scale of one to five or agree,disagree, you could literally
just ask open-ended questionsand get free text answers and
(36:48):
from that put it all into an AItool, whether it's Copilot, or
you create your own GPT, forexample in ChatGPT, and you can
make sense of what otherwise canappear to be just a bunch of
disparate information.
Another thing that is reallycool that I've started to play
around with is when it comes towho is involved in a project,
(37:12):
the different project players,both at the you know sponsor,
the project team, your changeambassadors, your leaders,
creating some personas withinthem, within your GPT or your AI
tool, and then, when you'represented with any particular
need or a situation that ariseswithin the project, or even a
(37:35):
communication.
You can actually ask the toolto say, okay, based on the
personality of this projectmanager, for example, that I've
structured what might theirbiggest, what might they might
what they ask about, what mighttheir biggest pushbacks be?
Where might they be hesitant,where might they be leaning in
(37:57):
and getting a little bit moreinformation and insight from
that, so that way, when youthink about the communications
and the connection in those,those conversations that you're
crafting, you can lean on havinga little bit of that
demographic, psychographic infoto help inform how you need to
communicate and shareinformation with them.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
And it's brilliant.
I've done this many times now.
I've actually analyzed all ofmy stakeholders, the senior ones
.
So I've asked I use CoPilotpredominantly at work and I ask
CoPilot to look the emails, thecommunication, the chats and
then assess to me when I talk tothis senior person what do they
(38:38):
value in the way theycommunicate?
You know and so and you are ahuman you're going to have to
validate does that make sense?
To me and most of the time, thebeautiful thing about the tool
is now and it will get better itwill actually give you evidence
of why it's come up with thisassessment based on the words
and all of that.
Usually that takes ages toactually decipher and sometimes
(39:04):
it's an opinion, not a fact, andso I think that's going to be
another layer that will actuallyhelp us move forward.
I am aware of the time we arecoming close to the podcast.
I'm thoroughly enjoying this.
Usually, the question that Iask my guests Amy, what would be
your advice to people like mein the business of changing
(39:27):
communication to walk away withwhen it comes to phase zero of a
project?
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Well, I'll say I'll make a more of a general
statement with this is thatrecognizing that people are
unique, that we are not one sizefits all when it comes to how
you prepare for, plan andexecute your change.
(39:54):
Keep that in mind.
Whether it's something thatyou've more formally assess,
there's ways to suss out, youknow the different type of
change personalities or thechange styles that you might
have within your organization oron your team, but take the time
to learn that, so that way,when you are presenting and
(40:14):
communicating change, thatyou're not trying to treat this
as a one size fits all and that,ultimately, change is an
individual endeavor supported byan organizational effort.
And so making sure that, whilewe don't need to create custom,
custom engagement, customexperiences for each person, we
(40:36):
do need to keep it in mind thatwe all interpret and have
different beliefs and opinionsand approaches to how we do
change and what change means tous, both personally and
professionally.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
I love that Change is an individual endeavor
supported by organizationaleffort.
I love that that should be yourtitle for your next book.
I should write that down.
Yeah, yeah, there you go.
Another one.
You're welcome, Amy.
It's been a pleasure having youin my podcast, the Inner Game
of Change.
I hope I can get you back inthe future and perhaps tackle
(41:16):
this idea of technology, and Ithink by the time we're going to
talk about this, hopefully AIwill be part of our workflow
going forward.
How would people connect withyou, Amy?
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Yeah, so a couple different ways.
You could go to our website,which is painted porch
strategiescom.
You can also just email me, amy, at painted porch strategiescom
, and I'd be happy to connectwith you.
I always like to say, even if,if you're someone who's simply
change, curious, you areinterested in this thing called
change, or you know that you'reabout to embark on a project, or
you have one that maybe you'restarting with and you're a
little leery about where you'reat in your phase, we can always
(42:04):
connect it.
I'm happy to help shine alittle light and provide a
little guidance for you so thatway you, your team and the
organization can be successfuland come to the end of the first
step in the journey morereinvigorated revitalized and
(42:26):
excited for what's possible.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
That's beautifully put.
Until next time, amy, stay welland stay safe.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
Thank you, stay well and stay safe.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Thank you for listening.
If you found this episodevaluable, remember to subscribe
to stay updated on upcomingepisodes.
Your support is trulyappreciated and, by sharing this
podcast with your colleagues,friends and fellow change
practitioners, it can help mereach even more individuals and
professionals who can benefitfrom these discussions.
(42:53):
Remember, and in my opinion,change is an enduring force and
you will only have a measure ofcertainty and control when you
embrace it.
Until next time, thank you forbeing part of the Inner Game of
Change community.
I am Ali Jammah and this is theInner Game of Change community.
I am Ali Jammah and this is theInner Game of Change podcast.
Host
Ali Juma
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