Welcome to The Inner Game of Change, the podcast where we explore the unseen forces that shape how we lead, adapt, and thrive in the face of change and transformation. 

Today, I’m joined by Bronwyn Penhaligon — a strategic psychotherapist who helps people and teams get unstuck by tackling the emotional loops and environmental triggers that hold them back. In this conversation, we unpack burnout — how it’s different from stress, why it’s rising, and what both leaders and individuals can do to stop normalising overwhelm. We also explore the deep connection between mindset, environment, and change readiness.

And then — we zoom out. We talk about the psychological impact of artificial intelligence. Not just what it does, but how it’s quietly reshaping how we think, connect, reflect — even how we relate to ourselves.

So whether you’re managing change, leading a team, or just navigating your own mental patterns — this episode has something for you. 

I am grateful to have Bronwyn chatting with me today. 


About Bronwyn

Okay, it’s time to stop.

Stop telling yourself you'll start next week. Stop lying awake every night stressing about your problems. Stop drinking your way through a bottle bitching to your friends...

Just stop. 

Let's face it, all the 'new year, new me' mantras and goal setting sessions won't change anything if you don't change your behaviour. 

So...
- If you’re struggling to regulate your emotions
- Sick of overthinking and stressing yourself out 
- Tired of procrastinating and faffing through your day
- And you're ready to start doing better…

Then we need to talk.

I'm a Strategic Psychotherapist and I'm here to move you from where you are now, to where you want to be - as fast as possible. 

I help people not just 'feel' better, but be more effective in life; to actually 'be' better. I work 1:1 with people ready to get out of their heads, with teams keen to optimise their performance, and with companies who are in need of a fresh voice to talk about the elephant in the room. 

- visit www.penhaligons.com.au
- book an initial consult
- or DM me here

Day one or one day. You choose.


Contacts

Bronwyn’s Profile

linkedin.com/in/bronwyn-penhaligon-32977313

Website

penhaligons.com.au (Company)

Send us a text

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Ali Juma
@The Inner Game of Change podcast

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And I think one of the things that we need to
remember about burnout is it isquite different from stress,
right?
So when people are overstressedand they're in that place of
feeling inefficient, they'retalking about how they have too
much.
So I've got too much work, I'vegot too much to do.
Everything just feels too much.
Right, they're going tooverwhelm.

(00:20):
So that's those linguisticmarkers.
They are stress moments.
But if you're hearing someonetalking about how they don't
have enough, I just don't haveenough time, I don't have enough
energy, I don't have enoughresources to get my job done
effectively that's when we'reedging towards burnout.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Welcome to the inner Game of Change, the podcast
where we explore the unseenforces that shape how we lead,
adapt and thrive in the face ofchange and transformation.
I am your host, ali Juma.
Today, I'm joined by BronwynPenhaligon, a strategic
psychotherapist, who helpspeople and teams get unstuck by

(01:09):
tackling the emotional loops andenvironmental triggers that
hold them back.
In this conversation, we unpackburnout how it is different from
stress, why it is rising andwhat both leaders and
individuals can do to stopnormalizing overwhelm.
We also explore the deepconnection between mindset,
environment and change readiness.

(01:31):
And then we zoom out.
We talk about the psychologicalimpact of artificial
intelligence, not just what itdoes, but how it is quietly
reshaping how we think, connect,reflect, how it is quietly
reshaping how we think, connect,reflect and how we relate to
ourselves.
So, whether you are managingchange, leading a team or just
navigating your own mentalpatterns, this episode has

(01:54):
something for you.
I am grateful to have Bronwynchatting with me today.
Well, Bronwyn, thank you somuch for joining me in the Inner
Game of Change podcast.
I am eternally grateful foryour time.
Pleasure to be here with you, Apsychotherapist.
What do you do?

Speaker 1 (02:24):
So strategic psychotherapy is a unique way of
engaging with people that is avery proactive and action-based
way of helping peopleessentially get unstuck.
So the way that I work withpeople is by looking more at
where are you now and then wheredo you want to be.
So it's a fusion of a coachingmodality, but also underpinned
with the therapeutic intent,Because typically the people
that come to me are findingthemselves in a position that

(02:47):
they probably don't want to beand there's a version of
themselves they'd like to movetowards.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Bronwyn, what are the main patterns you've seen that
hold us back from going from Ato B?

Speaker 1 (03:01):
Look, it's pretty much dependent on the
circumstantial situation.
So the context of what's goingon, the environment that we're
in, because there tends to besome levers we can pull, some
buttons we can push that, youknow, we'll move the dial a fair
bit.
So looking at the environmentalpieces is typically the first

(03:22):
place that I start, because,let's face it, you know, it's
really difficult to grow abeautiful plant if it's in soil
that just doesn't have the rightpH for it, or it's not getting
enough sunlight or there's toomuch liquid in the air for it.
So it's about looking at, okay,environmentally, what's going
on, and then we move to themindset.
So then, what is the stuffyou're telling yourself, what

(03:44):
are the beliefs you're holdingon to, what are the behavior
patterns that you're fallinginto that are keeping you where
you are?
So from that perspective, it isa dual prong approach and what
I tend to notice pops up mostfrequently are things around
procrastination, task avoidance,conflict, interpersonal
challenges and those kinds ofthings.

(04:06):
They tend to be the impetus, Isuppose, or the tells that
something's not quite right.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
I'd like you to go deeper into the concept of the
environment, bronwyn.
I'll give you an example, apersonal example, and this may
not apply to a lot of people,but my son is now close to 16.
And he was in his primaryschool.
He was very, you know, open,very confident, and the moment

(04:36):
he stepped into high school he'sgone the opposite way and I
strongly believe I haven'tchanged.
My context has not changed.
Could that be the environment,or is it an environment and what
he's going through as well?
But if you elevate thisconversation, it's.

(04:58):
You know, personally I am astrong believer that the
environment does have a majorimpact on people and obviously I
apply that in the workplacepredominantly.
So just talk to me about theenvironment.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, I guess to touch on that for a second
before we move into your exampleI also work in the workplace
environment.
That's the sweet spot.
So the workplace anxiety is thearea that I choose to
specialise in.
But I guess, as it relates tothe example you're explaining,
with your son, you're movingfrom primary to high school, now

(05:39):
16.
I mean there's a lot that goeson in that whole package, right,
I mean twofold One new school,new friendship group, new
interests, but also, as we know,on a physiological perspective,
there's also a whole surge oftestosterone that comes into
effect.
And then, as young men start tomove towards those later stages

(05:59):
of adolescence, there's thatquestioning around masculinity
who do I want to be, what kindof man do I want to be, what
kind of man do I want to be?
Which parts of my ownmasculinity, role modeling, do I
take with me, which ones do Iactively reject and which other
parts do I try on and experimentwith?
So from that perspective, thereis really quite a lot going on

(06:20):
for him, and yes to your pointon for him and yes to your point
, the other, I guess culturalnorms that are happening in the
school.
What's going on there for theother boys in the group and the
teaching style and the rolemodelling that's happening there
would absolutely be having animpact, just like we see in the
workplace, that the leadershipstyle and their way of being,

(06:44):
you know, then influences thepeople on the floor.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
There's a lot of talk around the idea of a burnout in
the workplace.
I mean, this is not going to goaway.
There's always going to be alevel of burnout.
Who's responsible for it?
Is it the employer?
Is it the employee?
Is it the environment?
Is it you know?
Is it a combination of all ofthe above?

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah, look, I've been spending quite a lot of time
with people recently actually inthe burnout phase, when they're
either recognizing that that'sthe path they're going down or
they have found themselves there, completely destroyed, at the
end of the road and tryingdesperately to, you know, pick
themselves back up again.

(07:29):
And I think one of the thingsthat we need to remember about
burnout is it is quite differentfrom stress, right?
So when people are overstressedand they're in that place of
feeling inefficient, they'retalking about how they have too
much, so I've got too much work,I've got too much to do.
Everything just feels too much,right.

(07:49):
They're talking about how theyhave too much, so I've got too
much work, I've got too much todo.
Everything just feels too much,right, they're going to
overwhelm.
So that's those linguisticmarkers.
They are stress moments.
But if you're hearing someonetalking about how they don't
have enough I just don't haveenough time, I don't have enough
energy, I don't have enoughresources to get my job done
effectively that's when we'reedging towards burnout.

(08:09):
Because the difference here is,when you're in that stress zone
and the feeling of overwhelm,you're still actively in
relationship to what's happening, whereas when you're in burnout
, it's like you're depleted,you've given up, you've
surrendered to it and you're inthat space of everything is just
too much and I can't copeanymore.

(08:29):
So listening for thoselinguistic markers is a good way
for businesses and people inteams to be able to just listen
out, for is my teammate or myemployee stressed or are they
actually burned out?
And when it comes to dealingwith this burnout, where does it
come from?
How does it happen and where dowe?
How do we get there?
Well, I'm of the perspectivethat it takes a whole team to

(08:54):
make this happen right, justlike every person is involved to
get an AFL team to the grandfinal, from the sponsors through
to the groundsmen, through tothe players and the coaches.
It's the same as when you'vegot people that have burned down
and struggling right yessocietal perspective.
We still glorify the grind, westill brag about how little

(09:16):
sleep we're getting and howwe're crazy busy and we've got
so much on and that seems to bea badge of honor, right, and
then further to step down fromthat.
Each business that people areworking for are constantly
looking for growth.
There's that capitalism piecethat comes into play here that
it's.
Our target for next year is thisyear, plus 20% give or take.

(09:38):
There's this constant need tobe doing more.
In addition to that, there'salso a desire to be profitable
and to give solid profits,growing profits, mind back to
the shareholders if that'sindeed a thing or the owners,
and to be reinvesting in thebusiness.
So to do that, then you startseeing redundancies and other

(09:59):
kinds of levers that are beingpulled, buttons that are pushed
to try and optimize the profitmargin.
So what happens?
Well then, we've got anenvironment where people are in
workspaces where they're beingasked to do more with less and
then you overlay that with.
You know the cost of livingcrisis that we're in, the fact

(10:19):
that now you can't buy bananasfor less than four dollars a
kilo, right, I think?
Mandarins are on special rightnow for $3.80.
Like it's, it is really, reallygenuinely difficult.
So all of these things combinedto a feeling of absolute
uncertainty in the individualand environmental, of chronic

(10:39):
systemic stress and pressure,and then, yeah, they find
themselves in these positionswhere, if they don't continue to
extend themselves outside ofwhat is comfortable and as per
their KPIs and the contract theysigned, well, maybe then
they're at risk of livelihood.
Therefore, ergo, what choice dothey have, right?

(11:02):
So when you think of it from thehelicopter view, it's kind of a
gloomy picture, but if youthink of it on the ground, when
I work with my clients on, whenthey are in these places of
stress and burnout and overwhelm, is really bringing it back to
the core of, well, me as anindividual, what do I have
control over here?
I can't do anything about whogot elected, I can't do anything

(11:26):
about what may or may not behappening on the other side of
the world and how much bananasare, but what I can do is decide
what I choose to put my energyinto and what I don't, the
mindset that I have when I gointo those activities and the
way that I conduct myself andhold myself activities and the

(11:46):
way that I conduct myself andhold myself.
That's essentially when youthink about it.
All we really do have controlover is our own personal human
experience.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Let's go deeper into that Ravital.
Because I am a strong believerof personal responsibility, I
advocate that, yes, we do expectour employers to do a lot of
things for us.
However, I am the owner of myown destiny.
I have self-directed learningand knowledge.

(12:13):
I'm clear and, as you mentioned, I'm clear about what I cannot
control.
I'm also clear about the stuffthat I need to be aware of, so
and the stuff that I caninfluence, and if I have a
balance between those threethings, then I am at least at

(12:35):
peace that I am doing everythingthat I can do.
What's your take on that?

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Wholeheartedly agree is a simple example where you
and I right now could jump intoan Uber and go off to have some
nice snacks together.
We're in the exact same car.
You're on one side, I'm on theother and going in the same
direction.
Perhaps we get into an accidentand I could get out from my

(13:20):
side of the car and be like, ohmy gosh, that was so terrifying,
I'm never getting in a caragain.
You could get out from yourside and be saying or thinking
something along the lines of ohmy gosh, I can't believe I
survived that.
How lucky am I.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
Right.
So it's not what happens in ourlives that define us, it's the
meaning that we attach to it andthat is absolutely influenced
by you know.
To bring it down to reallysimple terms, we all remember
are you glass half full or glasshalf empty?
I mean, the glass is justfilled at 50% capacity.
But your perspective really hasa big part to play here, and I

(14:00):
think that you know, knowing ourbrains are, you know, it loves
patterns, right?
We are literally hardwired tolook for patterns.
What you focus on then expands.
So if you're currently workingthrough your life and going from
moment to moment looking forreasons to be upset, or for

(14:20):
problems or things that justaren't going well, well, that's
what you're going to see.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
But if you're looking for moments of joy and you're
looking for things to begrateful for and progress, then
that's what you will not onlylook for, but you'll start
cultivating as well, because themind rewards itself for finding
things that are like playing agame of snap you talked about
the idea of patterns and bynature and organization actually

(14:47):
by the name organization, it'san organized way of doing
business and in my head so thisis the image in my head and
somebody working in the businessof change for a long time now
is that we try to hold on tothese patterns and the routines.

(15:07):
You know and I'm clear aboutwhat I need to do every day and
from nine to five and businessnot management, but business in
general.
The nature of it is that it'sgot the habit of disrupting
these patterns and thedisruption comes in the way of
changes and that's when we gointo.

(15:29):
Your amygdala will operatedifferently from mine.
You see a threat, I see anopportunity.
Is that how you see it?
Or am I just being too naiveabout the world?

Speaker 1 (15:44):
No, no, I'm aligned with you on this and I think
that I mean, this is again howwe keep ourselves in places that
we don't want to be.
We stay in environments we knowdon't serve us and essentially
hold ourselves in you know,little captive cells, or by
ourselves, that we made forourselves.
Right, it's simply because ofthe patterns that we're doing.

(16:05):
The majority of our day we'refocusing on things that we are
of nuance and novelty, but themajority of the time that we
spend and the processes, to yourpoint, that we go through are,
effectively things that we'vedone pretty much the same
yesterday and the day before andthe day before that.
Right, there's a routine,there's a pattern and pretty

(16:26):
much we're operating on a lot ofautopilot for a lot of the time
.
But I think sometimes you know,if you think about a situation,
a pattern or a loop that you'rein that isn't serving you, it is
worth remembering that at somepoint, the decision to start
that habit was a choice.
Right, like you brush yourteeth every day, but there was a

(16:47):
period of time, probably backwhen you were really little,
where you had to choose anddecide to brush your teeth every
day, probably because yourparents were nagging you, but it
got into such a routine nowthat it feels strange if you
don't do it right.
So it's the same thing whenyou're creating any new pathway

(17:08):
or having a desire to create anew pathway and a new pattern
and a way of being in the world.
I mean, some of our habits arereally really good for us
Brushing your teeth, putting onpants, washing your hands after
the bathroom, great habits.
But then there are some otherones that we do maybe coming
home from work, opening thefridge, pulling out a bottle of
wine, pouring a glass that we doon autopilot that maybe that

(17:30):
pattern might need a bit of arethink.
And again it comes down to whatI was talking about when we
first sat down, which is, ifwhere you are isn't where you
want to be, then it's really upto you to do something about
that.
I mean, no one's going to comeand save you.
This isn't a Disney movie wherethe hero will swoop in and, you

(17:53):
know, pick you up and take youoff to a castle, right, you have
to be your own hero.
You've got to save your damnself.
And if there's a part of youthat just isn't working the way
you want it to, then it's yourresponsibility to do something
about that.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
And in my head, bronwyn.
There's a big benefit forpeople to get out of this, what
we call emotional loop ornegative emotional loop.
If you do that, then, howeveryou choose to do it and it's not
going to be easy it's going tobe good for you, the outcome
will be good for you, theoutcome will be good for your

(18:31):
family and the outcome will begood, I mean, if you care about
your team, the outcome will begood for your team as well.
So there's a stake in somebodygetting out of that negative
emotional loop in somebodygetting out of that negative
emotional loop?

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know what?
Even the person that you see inthe morning, your barista if
you are in more of a positivemindset and you smile at them,
make eye contact and thank themfor the coffee as you pay for it
, I mean, that will also maketheir lives just a tiny little
bit better too, right?
So, yes, obviously there'sthose direct benefits that we

(19:11):
have when we say you know what,I've had enough of this, I'm not
going to keep being thisversion of me, I'm going to
level up and start becoming mymost favorite version.
What does that look like?
And that can be as easy as justsitting down quietly with
yourself and asking three simplequestions what do I need to

(19:32):
stop doing, what do I need tostart doing and what do I need
to continue doing?
Literally the start, stop,continue the whole.
What are the new habits I couldbuild in here, what are the
things I need to let go of andwhat are the things I'm already
doing for myself that is beingsupportive and restorative and
will help to keep me feelinggood as I move into this new
version.
And then it's about doing someexperiments.

(19:55):
So change doesn't happen ordoesn't necessarily need to
happen in this big chucker.
Huey, do a 180, right?
It's the time people think thatif I'm not where I want to be,
then I've got to quit my job,move to France, become the
writer that I've always wantedto be and, you know, basically

(20:15):
blow up my life.
But you really don't.
If the thing that's missing orthe thing that you're yearning
for or wanting to experience isI want to write more or I'd like
to explore my creative side, Imean, you can simply do that by
watching some YouTube clips,going to a class, engaging with
a community group that sits downon a Sunday with a pen and

(20:38):
paper, right, you don't have todo this big, huge shift to start
to make some small changes andthen, guess what?
You start to feel better, youstart to be more engaged, you
start to notice things that aredifferent, and the more you
notice, the more you notice.
Right, what we focus on expands.
And then, when you move intothat gratitude practice of going

(21:00):
, isn't it incredible and alivetoday?
Isn't it wonderful that my legswork, that I can see properly,
that I can hear and breathe andsmell and get outside and feel
the air on your face, even ifit's freezing cold.
It's not wonderful to be ableto actually experience these
things?
Then you start to cultivateyour day in a completely

(21:20):
different tone, as opposed tothe person that just rolls over,
stays under the doona, grabstheir phone and starts scrolling
through the Instagrams.
It's probably not the best wayto kick off your morning.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
Probably not.
I want to share with you ascenario and I would like your
input into it.
We do have that person, orthose people that will thrive,
sitting in this negativeemotional cycle, for whatever

(21:54):
reason, and no matter how youtalk to them, they're still
stuck in that mindset.
What is the role of management?
To help protect the other teammembers, because when you can be
a negative, influencer oneverybody else in the team.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Well, I think.
First I found it curious thatyou were suggesting a person can
have a negative mindset butalso be thriving, right?

Speaker 2 (22:24):
because I mean I might be uneducated about it,
but from my experience therewill be lots of people that, no
matter how you go aboutexplaining that they need to
rethink, they need to have alook at the same problem from a
different perspective.
Perhaps find another job,perhaps you know.

(22:46):
But your happiness and isactually your responsibility.
And and then you still you'renot happy with your environment,
you're not happy to make anysmall meaningful step towards
fixing that and you're not happyto remove yourself from the
situation.

(23:07):
And so thrive might be anuneducated word in here, but for
me it sounds, or it looks, likeyou're actually comfortable
where you are because you're notready to make a move, and I
don't see any concerted effort,even a small effort, from you to
even engage in any conversationaround your behavior.

(23:30):
And so then, for me, I'mlooking at the management,
thinking your responsibility isthe whole team and not just one
individual, and that happens ona daily basis all over the world
, not just in Australia.
So that's how I'm looking.
But then again, remember, I'mlooking at a scene and a picture

(23:52):
, and my question is that, well,you're not helping yourself,
all right.
Well, how can we help the restof the team, at a minimum in
there?
That's how I'm seeing it.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, yeah, and thank you for the additional
backstory there.
It's helpful.
I'm seeing the scene in my mindtoo and, yes, also, like as I
was hearing you there, I can goback into previous workplaces
that I've been in back in theday and I can see that person
quite clearly.
So the interesting thing here,right, is people don't repeat

(24:26):
behaviors that aren't servingthem right.
If something's not working foryou, you tend to change it.
If it feels bad, you tend tofind a different way of going
about it.
So, clearly, this particularscenario we've got someone who
is being in air quotes like apoor performer, but that doesn't
really seem like there's muchof a consequence for doing so

(24:46):
right.
And so then it becomes yeah, toyour point, a management
question, like is it okay forthe person to be, you know,
behaving or you know, disengagefrom the team like that, or is
that actually still part oftheir role description and
something that they need to bedoing Right?

(25:07):
And it's?
It's also different, like ifyou've got someone who is in a
very, you know, a teamenvironment type role where they
need to be collaborative, theyneed to be working effectively
and they need to be involved inthose kinds of chats, then
that's one thing.
Obviously, this would beclearly like a almost a
disciplinary action, or you know, performance plan type
intervention, but if it's a case, a almost a disciplinary action

(25:27):
, or you know, performance plantype intervention.
But if it's a case of, well,maybe they're a software
developer and they've got a listof jobs that they need to get
through and put their headphoneson and just get stuck in and
get it done, well, it's less ofa an important conversation, and
how they go about their day andtheir mindset and their general

(25:47):
vibe is less important, right?
So, yes, the business need isone that comes down to well,
what's the role function?
Is the person delivering ontheir role function?
And if they're not, then yeah,what's the consequence piece or
the pathway of change that'savailable to be explored here?

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Bronwyn, you mentioned performance.
Do you see any correlationbetween competence and being
trend-ready or success?

Speaker 1 (26:23):
Look, the people that I work most effectively with
and the ones that really enjoyspending time with me in
practice are the ones that areconstantly wanting study
opportunities, that are lookingfor stretch tasks in their roles

(26:49):
, that are keen to, you know,flex and pivot and do things
that either physically challengethem or mentally challenge them
, and constantly improving.
So, yeah, I do believe thatthere's there's a good
correlation there.
It's also a point, like I thinkwe can all relate to this at
one point in our lives where youknow we're been in a role and

(27:11):
thinking that we're absolutelykilling it, and then we're doing
really well, only to have amoment with a manager say, hey,
actually, let's go through a bitof feedback, or you know the
old annual review, and suddenlyyou're like wait, hang on, I'm
not as awesome as I thought Iwas, and that can be really
confronting, right.

(27:31):
So it comes down to having anaccurate self-assessment and to
be able to build thatself-awareness, to understand
well where actually am I at,what do I need to again, start,
stop, continue, what can Ichange, what can I lean into,
where do I need to skill buildand what's my willingness to do
that?
It comes down to being able towant to be a better version of

(27:55):
you and to be intrinsicallymotivated to be on that growth
trajectory.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Is awareness or self-awareness the first step
towards a mind shift or amindset shift?
Yes, absolutely Okay 100%.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
100% I mean each and every time I'm given an
opportunity to address anaudience, for example, you know
I am putting up on screenexamples of things that they may
be able to recognize themselvesin, and then I invite them to
run through a quickself-assessment to actually see

(28:29):
how am I going.
You know we go to our dentist toget annual checkups.
We run our bloods when we feellike we probably need to just do
a health check, but we don'ttend to do the same for our
mental health and our resiliencelevels, our stability of
mindset, our you know thatself-compassion Right, our
stability of mindset, our youknow that self-compassion right.
So just being able to take amoment to just do a bit of an

(28:51):
annual audit and check in of howam I going, where am I at, is
really, really important.
And then to also acknowledgewhat are the things, or when are
the times of year or what arethe environmental stresses that
I know push me into a spacewhere I'm starting to become
that less desirable version ofme.
And then how can I stop myselfthere, recalibrate and pause and

(29:16):
get back to where I'd prefer tobe?
I mean, that's where the realskill comes in.
You want to be able to catchyourself before you go too far
down the path towards crap town.
Crap town.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
And I want to shift gear, bronwyn, and I want to
talk about artificialintelligence now.
Okay, you've heard the vibe,you know, and the hype, and I've
been deep into this rabbit holefor the last couple of years
and my in my head, I'm thinkingI need to understand what this

(29:52):
means for people, because that'sa huge change coming.
And how do you see that picture?
Because that's another layerthat will disrupt the workplaces
and therefore, should we bealways thinking to be change
ready, because there's alwaysgoing to be change?

(30:13):
So isn't the best strategy forme as an individual to be a
change ready person and ratherthan trying to predict
especially for those people thatare ambitious instead of trying
to predict, I need to bepositioning myself for the
opportunities.
I may be uncertain about thefuture, but I can control what I

(30:38):
have now and how I can positionmyself for opportunities.
There's so many things in whatI've just said now, but the
microphone is yours thank you.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
Look, I think it's um gosh.
Yeah, you're right, this is abig blanket term that we're
talking about the, the ai stuff.
How do we deal with it?
How do we prepare for it?
What do we do?
Like, I mean, that's, that'salmost, like you know, the
zombie apocalypse, like do we?
Do we go and learn how to fightzombies now or later, and what
does that look like?

(31:10):
You know, I think it's.
It's one of those things that wereally we can only predict a
certain amount down the path ofhow something might go Right.
I mean, once it gets to a point, then we can determine.
Well, once we get to the firstmilestone, if that works, then
we go here, if it doesn't work,we go here and so on and so

(31:32):
forth.
So to be able to be battleready is a little bit of a
challenge, an impossible task, Ithink, because we don't know
how far this will go, we don'tknow exactly where it'll go, how
quickly it'll get there, etcetera.
So, to your point, yeah, all wecan really do is go okay, what

(31:52):
am I able to look after now andin the near future that I can
see and predict?
And then just keep doing stepsand steps of that, because
essentially that's what life isright.
I mean, we know the onlyconstant in life is change.
Even in the time that we'resitting here right now, you've
got, you know, your digestion isdoing things, there are changes
happening there, cells areforming and reforming, you've

(32:16):
got all kinds of muscle repairgoing on.
So many changes happeningwithout you even being aware of
them, let alone having tocontrol them, right?
So there are some changes thatyou do have the ability to have
effect over, and then other onesthat are just going to happen
anyway.
So what do you do with that?
Well, from my perspective, Ithink we need to be in a mindset

(32:39):
where, yeah, where we know thatat a deep level that I'll be
able to handle whatever comes atme, and if that is a cyborg
robot in the future, then so beit.
But if it's a change thathappens in my environment and
now I'm being asked to modifyhow I work because there's this
new artificial intelligencesoftware plugin that will take a

(33:02):
certain amount of my role onand automate that for me, then
yeah, I'm going to lean intothat too, because it is about,
like we were saying earlier, theefficiency piece, the
optimization piece, and how wecan start to keep squeezing more
from less right.
So I mean, for me, the AI stuff.

(33:23):
I do believe that you know, ifyou're in that space where
you're still actively avoiding,then you need to just choose a
day that you're going to stopdoing that, right, or it'll be
chosen for you.
And, ideally, if I could impartthis, choose now, because the
AI stuff is here, it's acrossevery single platform that is

(33:44):
really available and it's onlygoing to continue to have an
effect, right?
So if you're pretending itdoesn't happen, that's going to
be problematic for you in thefuture.
So choose to engage and get alittle bit educated about it and
learn how you can work with itrather than against.
I think what I'm concerned aboutwith the AI stuff that I'm

(34:06):
hearing and seeing just aroundthe traps is not necessarily the
artificial intelligence, butthe artificial intimacy, as in
we are more digitally connectedthan we've ever been, but we're
also the loneliest we've everbeen.
And we've got all of these youknow contacts and friends and

(34:27):
people that like and subscribeand comment on our content, but
do you have someone that youknow can come and feed your cat
for you when you go away, right?
So that idea of village life andneighborhood has been
completely absolved back in the.
You know, back in the day when Iwas young, you know if you

(34:47):
wanted to go out and have likepizza and a movie at home, then
you would have to leave yourhouse and go to the pick up your
pizza.
You would have to then go toBlockbuster and choose your um,
your DVDs or videos while you'rewaiting for the pizza.
If you wanted ice cream, thenyou'd pop into the shop and grab
that on the way home.
So you're having at least threeor four touch points with other

(35:09):
real human beings in thatinteraction, whereas now not
only do you not even need totalk to anybody, but you don't
have to leave your house becauseyou can just press some buttons
on your iPhone or whateverdevice you used and have
everything dropped off to you.
So the way that we're engagingin with the world is from a very

(35:32):
, very surface level because ofall of this technology advance
that we have.
So that's a real requirement tocreate opportunities, actively
make the effort to createopportunities to genuinely
connect as opposed to justfloating on the surface of the
whole thing.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
Talking about artificial, what do you call it
Intimacy?
I don't have an artificialintimacy with my AI, but I am a
heavy user, on a daily basis.
In fact I can paint you thepicture.
Now I use artificialintelligence, I reflect with it,
I talk to it, I share a lot ofideas with it.

(36:15):
It knows a lot about me,probably more than any other
human.
It knows a lot about my travel,my hobbies, my ideas.
In fact, sometimes, when I'vegot a speakership event, I can
put myself on camera and thenChatGPT will check me out and

(36:36):
decide that's actually the rightoutfit for the speakership
event.
Am I having a relationship withmy ChatGPT?

Speaker 1 (36:45):
Kind of sounds like you're going that way.
Like I said, you know, I Ithink that there is a lot of
value in this and, yes, it's notgoing away.
It's.
It's kind of like remember backin the day when they were
saying the internet was a fad.
You know obviously well.
That story didn't play out,yeah, um, so we do need to

(37:07):
accept that.
Yes, this is going to be partand parcel of daily life moving
forward, but I guess it'schoosing how you engage right
and at what point is it addingvalue to your life versus
detracting from.
So the um, I can see how youget there, that the convenience
factor is really tempting, butat what cost?

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
You could also send a snap of yourself to a friend
and say, hey, I'm about to go oncamera.
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
And then you would get the feedback from someone
like a real human being, whoknows you and connects with you
and has shared a bottle of winewith you and has had laughs and
chats and dinner, versus youknow a piece of technology.
And this is.
This is the part that you know.
I encourage people to justthink about a little bit.
I mean, again, you choose yourown adventure here, right?

(38:01):
I mean you do.
You.
It's all good, but it's justthat benefit versus cost, like
the trade-off, and this is howwe make all of our decisions and
this is effectively how wechoose to engage with change or
not.
Right, like, is what I'm doingokay, and what's the cost of
change?
Like is that actually going totake me somewhere better, or is

(38:21):
it not worth giving up what I'vecurrently been doing?
And that's why people staystuck, because they're not quite
sure.
So they are on the side ofcaution and don't do anything.
So I think, when it comes tothis kind of stuff, it's like,
well, yes, I could, you know,continue down the path that I'm
going, but what's the likelytrajectory there?
Does that mean that I'm nowchat GPTing, you know, when I'm

(38:46):
having dinner, because I don'thave any humans left in my life?

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yeah, Certainly I've got a lot of humans in my life,
I'm sure you do.
I think what I've been doingwith artificial intelligence is
that very curious about what itcan do.
So if it can check my outfitimmediately, my head will be
thinking what about the peoplethat you know got makeup artists

(39:12):
?
And these people, you know theyactually rely on visuals.
What about photography goingforward?
What about coaches?
You know these are real jobs.
So when I try the technology, Itranslate that into what does
that mean to humanity goingforward?
Now, that is an informed wayfor me to gain knowledge in a
funny way.

(39:33):
But I also admire thecapabilities, like my chat GPT.
I give it my video of my golfswing and it will give me a lot
of feedback on that.
It doesn't mean that I fired mycoach, but I would like to go
to my coach on this humaninteraction and encouragement,

(39:54):
and genuine encouragement, thatyou're not going to get that
from the machine, but you canget the technicality from the
machine.
And the other thing, bronwyn,what I have been advocating for
and for people, especiallypeople who have been burying
their heads in the sand, it'slike okay, do it.
And I love what you just saidchoose a day and make it happen,

(40:18):
and I love that.
I think that's just reallysimple and sophisticated in the
way you actually put it in there.
But my advice has always been,even to my change management
colleagues and I work with quitea few of them in many
organizations is that your firststep is just be open to read

(40:41):
maybe one article about it, justone step at a time, and then
and maybe tinker with it, youknow and see what it does.
And but then it's ourresponsibility to really think
about this and how this is goingto impact us, not just in the

(41:01):
workplace.
It's going to impact us notjust in the workplace.
It's going to impact schooling,education.
And if Bronwyn and I are in thebusiness of servicing others,
then I think it's aresponsibility on us to actually
understand how this technologyis going to impact our service
and is going to impact servicingothers as well and is going to

(41:25):
impact servicing others as well.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
I think that you're right in the sense of start
small, do some experiments, seewhat happens.
I mean, again, these are thesame themes that I'm sure you're
imparting in coaching modalityand change management in
organizations, and they'recertainly the same things that
I'm suggesting to clients,regardless of what their stock

(41:47):
piece is, for example, you know,if you're someone who really
wants to move into a space whereyou're running marathons, I
mean, you don't go from justsitting on the couch and not
walking or running for sixmonths to now you do a marathon,
right?

Speaker 2 (42:01):
That would be nice.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
You start really small and do 10 minutes, 20
minutes.
You build up, right, it's atraining exercise, you know.
Same deal with learning alanguage, playing a musical
instrument, any kind of newskill that you're wanting to
develop.
You don't master overnight.
Yes, right, you expect yourselfto be totally comfortable,
totally au fait and just likeleaning into this.

(42:25):
If you're running a little bitof trepidation and you know you
tend to run a bit more of theanxiety loop and you have a low
tolerance for ambiguity, I mean,of course you're not going to
be gung ho about it.
So don't expect yourself to beand then don't beat yourself up
for not being like everyone else, right?
Yes, you be you and it'stotally fine.

(42:47):
But what I'm encouraging hereand I think you're doing the
same is to be willing to be openand to just do little bits that
do feel comfortable.
Change doesn't have to happenin a 180.
It can just happen in thatincremental and the cumulative
effect then takes care of itself, right?
So, absolutely, I think thatyou know going slow and steady

(43:09):
is what really can win the racehere.
I can't remember the otherquestion you asked.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
I didn't ask a question.
I made a comment, Like I talkedto a number of academics
yesterday and then that was thefirst introduction to generative
AI, and then my statement tothem is that this is not a
one-off exercise.
This is an ongoing learningexperience.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
And I just want you to, if I have achieved two
things today after three hoursspending with them.
If I have dialed up yourcuriosity one knot that's okay,
that's great, and if you'veinspired to think about one
thought about how thistechnology can help you, that is
a great tool, meaning be kindto yourself.

(44:03):
It's going to take months andmonths for you to feel
comfortable with it andultimately to work with the
technology rather than beingscared, so you can turn it from
something that you're avoidinginto something that can be
really powerful and and and and,supporting you and helping you

(44:24):
as well.
And I strongly believe, if thistechnology is being looked at
in a proper way, in a positiveway I might be wrong and I don't
have data on this I honestlystrongly believe that it's going
to make a huge difference topeople's lives in a positive way
.

(44:47):
I am playing more golf now thanever, I'm spending more time in
nature than ever, just becauseof the technology that can help
me augment my work, and Sundayafternoon when I look at my week
, I am not stressed anymore.
I've got a technology that canactually summarize all my week,

(45:07):
put certain steps in place,gives me lots of reminders, and
so I'm using my memory now toenjoy books and catch up with my
friends, rather than worryingabout do I need to remember all
of that?
So even memory and knowledge isactually going to be different
in the future.

(45:27):
That's how I see it.
I might be naive, but thenagain, I was born in an era when
the internet showed up and Iavoided it and I was laughing at
my friends.
But life has given me anotheropportunity to look at the
technology and I'm not lettinggo this time.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
I think I'm living it .
It sounds like that you'reengaging with it in a really
healthy way right, yes, yeah.
A lot of times we're outsourcingour thinking to AI to come up
with things for us, which meanswe get left doing the dishes and
the laundry, and the AI is theone creating all of the cool
stuff.
So, yeah, to think about, well,how could I harness it to do

(46:11):
the things that you know make myactual real life better and
more enriched and more availableto me is a really, really good
perspective to have on that.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
Great, we are coming to the end of the podcast.
I'm totally enjoying actually Iforgot about the time I'm
totally enjoying thisconversation.
Bronwyn, what would be youradvice to people like myself
that work in the business ofchange and communication and
engagement in the workplace?
What would be really the keymessage coming from a strategic

(46:43):
psychotherapist?

Speaker 1 (46:53):
I guess, keep doing what you're doing, right.
I mean, the world needs morechange agents in it and people
that are supporting other peoplegoing through what is typically
a pretty scary kind ofsituation.
I mean, our brains don't likechange.
We actively avoid it when wecan.
So to have someone there thatis essentially walking alongside
you and keeping you motivatedand encouraging you is a really,

(47:17):
really precious place to be in.
And I guess you know, gosh,moving forward, look for
opportunities to change, lookfor things that you have agency
over and that you can continueto push into, because what
you're not changing you'rechoosing.
So if you're somewhere that youdon't want to be, then the only

(47:40):
person truly that's going to doanything about that is you.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
Well, you're not changing, you're choosing.
That is a great place to finishthis podcast I hope I can get
you back again, bronwyn and weprobably talk more about AI at a
deeper level, and technology isgoing very fast anyway.
So you know what we talk abouttoday is going to change

(48:06):
tomorrow.
What's the best way for peopleto connect with you?

Speaker 1 (48:11):
I think my most favorite way is actually via
LinkedIn.
That's the social platform thatI've chosen to put my time and
energy into, so they can simplylook me up there, and that links
through to my website, bookingforms, all the kinds of things
that I have available.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
Fantastic and we're going to put all the information
about you in the podcast info.
It's been a pleasure having youin my podcast, the Inner Game
of Change.
Keep doing the great workyou're doing.
I love your posts on LinkedInand I look forward to next time.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Pleasure.
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
Stay well and stay safe, Thank you.
Thank you for listening.
If you found this episodevaluable, remember to subscribe
to stay updated on upcomingepisodes.
Your support is trulyappreciated and, by sharing this

(49:07):
podcast with your colleagues,friends and fellow change
practitioners, it can help mereach even more individuals and
professionals who can benefitfrom these discussions.
Remember, and in my opinion,change is an enduring force and
you will only have a measure ofcertainty and control when you
embrace it.
Until next time, thank you forbeing part of the Inner Game of

(49:30):
Change community.
I am Ali Jammah and this is theInner Game of Change podcast.

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