February 21, 2024 • 25 mins
In this episode of Inquiry Oasis, we delve into the fascinating world of cognitive processes in education with Dr. Jonathan Tullis, Associate Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Arizona College of Education. Dr. Tullis, a prominent figure in the Cognition and Memory in Education and Learning Lab, shares insights from his groundbreaking research on the interaction between memory and learning environments, with a special focus on "Remindings." We explore his NSF-funded CAREER grant and its implications for optimizing learning strategies, aligning them with our natural cognitive tendencies. Dr. Tullis’s work is a critical beacon in understanding how cognitive processes shape effective learning environments, contributing significantly to the field of educational psychology.
Topics Discussed:
- Journey to the Forefront: Dr. Tullis’s Path in Educational Psychology
- The CAMEL Lab: Pioneering Research in Cognition and Memory
- The Essence of 'Remindings': Transforming Educational Strategies
- Cognitive Environments and Learning: An Intersecting Realm
- Memory Optimization: Strategies for Effective Learning
- Unearthing Discoveries: Surprises in Cognitive Research
- Future Visions: Integrating Cognitive Principles in Education
Book Recommendation:
- Make It Stick: The Science of Successful Learning – by Peter Brown, Henry Roediger, Mark McDaniel
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Host (00:01):
Jeffrey Anthony
University of Arizona Collegeof Education's podcast, here in
the heart of the Sonoran Desert.
We bring you conversations withour esteemed faculty members and
staff, whose research impactslives from southern Arizona to
the far reaches of the globe.
We explore the transformativepower of education in this
(00:21):
border town, where diversecultures and ideas converge,
weaving a tapestry ofinnovation with compassion
and a sense of wonder.
So join us as we journeythrough the sands of
curiosity, unearthing insightsthat enrich and inspire.
Sit back and relax aswe invite you to dive
into the Inquiry Oasis.
(00:44):
Welcome to another episodeof the Inquiry Oasis.
I'm your host, JeffreyAnthony, and today, we have the
privilege of speaking with Dr.
Jonathan Tullis, AssociateProfessor of Educational
Psychology and Director ofthe Cognition and Memory
in Education and LearningLab at the University of
Arizona College of Education.
Dr.
Tullis's work probes theintricate interplay between
cognitive processes andeducational practices, seeking
(01:07):
to harmonize our understandingof memory with the learning
environments we cultivate.
His research, which spansfrom the benefits of computer
programming on mathematicallearning to the nuances of
metacognition, is pushingthe boundaries of how
we optimize learning byaligning it with the natural
tendencies of our cognition.
In this session, we'llparticularly unpack the
fascinating dynamicsof "Remindings," a
(01:28):
central focus of Dr.
Tullis's recently funded NSFcareer grant, and delve into
its potential to reshapeour educational strategies.
So, without further ado,let's dive into this
journey of explorationand discovery with Dr.
Tullis here inthe Inquiry Oasis.
Doctor tell us.
It's an honor to haveyou with us today.
Dr. Jonathan Tullis (01:47):
Thanks so much for having me.
I'm excited to have this chat.
Host (01:50):
Jeffrey Anthony
So to begin, can you tell usabout the journey that brought
you to the forefront of researchand memory and learning?
Dr. Jonathan Tullis (01:57):
Yeah.
I grew up in afamily of educators.
My mom is an educator.
I've got a lot of aunts anduncles that were, teachers,
cousins that are teachers.
So I really alwaysunderstood the power and
promise of education.
So after college, I got anMED in high school science
and taught high school physicsand chemistry for a couple
(02:19):
of years in San Antonio.
it was incredibly tough work, soI really do appreciate teachers.
and so I didn't last too,too many years as a high
school teacher, but I reallyloved to think about how,
to help students learn.
I was really fascinatedto think about it.
How students rememberinformation, how students
access and use previouslylearned information.
(02:41):
Um, and so I really wanted tolearn more about that stuff.
therefore I entered a PhDprogram in cognitive psychology
at the University of Illinoisand found that I really
loved being a scholar incognitive psychology where
I could use creative ways oftesting different theories
about student learning.
(03:01):
I could gather and analyzedata to show what the best
ways to help students were.
It was just reallya great fit for me.
Host (03:09):
Jeffrey Anthony
So your research at the CAMELlab, which is short for the
cognition and memory andeducation and learning lab is
quite groundbreaking from whenI've read to prepare for this.
And can you give our listenersan overview of how memory and
learning environments intersectand the role "Remindings"
play in this relationship?
Dr. Jonathan (03:28):
Yeah, I'd love to.
So I take the view thatcognition reflects that
intersection between themind and the environment.
In other words, the environmentis largely shaping what we
remember, what we learn,what we can transfer and
apply in later situations.
So when we do examine learning,when we do examine cognition,
it's really vital to understandthat context, that environment
(03:50):
that it's happening in.
Two of the major aspects ofthe learning environment, that
I really examine and focus on,and that affect Remindings,
are the particular examplesthat we are exposed to, that
we study, that we learn, andthe timing and schedules,
that we see those examples.
So that first category,the initial examples that
we encounter or study,those initial examples
(04:13):
have a really importantplace in our cognition.
they largely shape, ourability to solve future
problems and how we categorizefuture examples or problems.
Let me provide an exampleof that, where research is
showing that, when novicephysics students are trying
to solve novel problems ornew problems, the problem
(04:36):
they're solving reminds them ofprior problems that they have
previously encountered, thatthey had previously solved.
And so these physics novicesthen use the prior problems to
help them solve the new problemsthat they're encountering.
So research is showing thatthese superficial features
of the problems they'reencountering are driving
(04:57):
the reminding process or theconnections that students
are building or creating.
In other words, if one problemhas an inclined plane, then
those novice or early physicsstudents will try to use a prior
problem that has an inclinedplane to solve the new problem,
even if they're about verydifferent actual principles,
(05:17):
like even if one is aboutconservation of energy and one
problem is about momentum, ifthey share those superficial
features like inclined planesor like a pulley or other
examples like that, they willtry to use the prior problem,
they'll be reminded of theprior problem and try to use
it to solve the novel problem.
So this is really important forteachers to be thinking about.
(05:40):
what are the specificexamples and instances
that we're providing tonovices, particularly when
introducing a novel concept?
Now the second major aspectof that learning environment
that I'm really interestedin and that I study And that
is crafted by the teacherin most cases, is the number
of exposures to the idea andparticularly the schedule of
(06:01):
those exposures or the scheduleof the practice that they get.
So lots and lots of prep, lotsand lots of research is showing
that spacing out or distributingpractice, distributing exposure
to concepts is really crucialto the long term retention
and use of those concepts.
Rather than massing orcramming things in a short
(06:22):
period of time, it's actuallyreally essential that we are
distributing practice, that weare spacing practice out, and
not just doing it all at onetime, but coming back to it.
And so these remindingframeworks that I study or
that I focus on suggest thatspacing out or distributing
practice is really importantbecause it forces learners to
(06:43):
exert a little bit more effort.
To draw the connections acrosstime, to retrieve what they
had previously done, andthat extra effort or extra
difficulty is actually reallyuseful or helpful for their
future ability to rememberand to apply that learning.
Host (06:59):
Jeffr
in my former career, beforeI started working at the
University of Arizona, I wasa professional musician and I
noticed when I was a serious,student, that if I spaced out,
my practices so that I wasn'tpracticing the same, let's say,
very complicated odd meter.
I was a drummer.
if I gave a day or twoin between, instead of
practicing every day, thatsome things would click.
(07:20):
what you just said,resonated with my own
lived experience there.
So that's fascinating.
so your career grantwhich is titled ' That
Reminds me the Causes andConsequences of Remindings,'
illuminates a fascinatingaspect of human cognition.
It touches on the veryessence of how new experiences
can spontaneously triggermemories of past events, which
you were just describing.
What inspired you to explorethis phenomenon, and how do
(07:42):
you anticipate this researchwill enhance our understanding
of learning and memory withinthe educational sphere?
Dr. Jonathan Tullis (07:49):
Yeah, so really long story short,
it's basically the firstproject that I worked on when
I was a graduate student.
My two advisors just put meon the project and said, go
for it, start learning, startfiguring this stuff out.
And, it really clicked with me,it really, resonated with me.
I see, I saw it as reallyimportant, and so I've just
really, haven't stoppedworking on it since that time.
(08:11):
As you said, reminding is whenwe are bringing back prior
knowledge or previously learnedinformation and applying it
to a new situation, right?
So we're um, using whatwe previously learned to
tackle novel problems.
These remindings are reallya fundamental or critical
aspect of human cognition.
Rather than thinking of themas a fluke or as something
(08:32):
not to really worry about orconsider, I try to highlight
how they are really importantand underlies some of the
most basic and consequentialmemory and cognitive phenomenon
that we know, including,why do repetitions of
information benefit learning?
Why does distributinginformation help
learning, right?
So some people have argued thatthese are not just a phenomenon
(08:55):
that happens just occasionallyor randomly, but rather, they're
really the crucial part ofthis cognition that allows
us to use prior knowledgein new novel situations.
But beyond that, our remindingsmay also be really important
because they might be able toproduce generalized knowledge.
(09:16):
In other words, it mightnot just be about using that
specific idea or conceptand applying it in a new
situation, but through theprocess of building that
connection and through theprocess of applying it in a
new situation, we might begeneralizing information, right?
We might be abstracting awayfrom those specific examples
(09:38):
and creating some more flexiblegeneral knowledge, which
is really crucial, right?
So this sort of goes in theface of a lot of the work in
cognitive psychology, especiallyin memory and even problem
solving, which really stressesor highlights the need for
studying unrelated conceptsso that you can assess each
(09:58):
concept individually so thatyour prior knowledge doesn't
unduly influence your memoryfor these new things that
we're studying and learning.
The work that I dosays, well, that's not
really realistic, right?
When we learn new stuff,it's related to other stuff.
When we learn a newinformation, it's connected
to what we already know.
And it's those connections,that really matter.
(10:20):
It's the relationships betweenthe information, that makes
a big impact on, what weknow, what we learn, and what
we can use in the future.
So rather than trying to,eliminate all relationships
between what we're learningand studying in order to get
a better understanding of howwe remember, I am, tackling
or trying to figure out, well,what about those relationships?
(10:43):
How do those relationshipsreally impact memory?
How do making those connectionsbetween instances and examples?
Help us understandemerging themes.
And that's really what Isee is, what we should be
doing in education, right?
In the educationalsphere, we don't want to
be learning disjointedpieces of information.
We want to bebuilding connections.
(11:04):
We want to be able tocreate clear and important,
accurate categories thatwe can solve and apply,
information in new settings.
So, yeah, that's, I think,in terms of impacting the
educational sphere, oneof those, one of the basic
building blocks, in education isreally acquiring knowledge and
concepts, ultimately rememberingand applying those later.
(11:27):
And so, remindings orbuilding those connections,
is really crucial to that.
But then even more challengingthan that is creating
knowledge that generalizesbeyond those learned examples.
That's often called theproblem of transfer, right?
When students learn something,they don't often transfer it
in ways that we would hopethat they would transfer it.
(11:48):
They don't often applyit to related problems.
So reminding is one, oneexplanation or one perspective
about how we can try to supportthat process in learners.
We can try to support thembuilding connections so that
they can then abstract awaythose themes so they can then
apply it in new settings.
Host (12:10):
Jeffr
It reminds me a little bit ofJohn Dewey's concept of habits
and how habits can be usedto inform how you can react
in a specific context whereyou don't necessarily are on
autopilot, but the habits youhave will can inform new ways to
engage within your environment.
Dr. Jonatha (12:28):
Yeah, that's really interesting to think about.
So that's something that wecan examine in the future is
that are people, are there somepeople that have these habits
where they are looking out forconnections, where they are
looking out for how is this newinformation related to what I
already know and whether those,maybe that's an individual
difference between learnersand, what are the consequences
(12:50):
or what drives thoseindividual differences even?
Host (12:53):
J
relevance to the academiccommunity we're at here at
the University of Arizona.
Why do you believe thisresearch holds significance
for the University of Arizona?
Dr. Jonathan Tullis (13:03):
Yeah, I think, one of the core missions,
of the University of Arizonais, effective, efficient,
education of our students, andthese remindings play a big
role in many different layersor levels of that instruction.
So one of my graduatestudents, Jiayu Li, for
example, is working on astudy that's looking on how
(13:23):
students control or regulatetheir own study, right?
So when they go off and theyare making their own study
choices, when they're tryingto master or learn a topic
on their own outside of theclassroom, they're, they engage
in specific study strategies.
What he's found is that you canteach them some study skills
(13:43):
in a particular domain, right?
You can teach them, oh,this is what we want to be
doing, is some metacognitivereflection about what
you've learned well and whatyou haven't learned well.
What he finds is that if youteach them that in a specific
domain, that domain that Ican serve as a reminder in the
future and can, reinstantiatethose study strategies later.
(14:05):
But it also serves as sort of alimitation such that they don't
extend those study strategiesand self regulation processes
beyond that domain, right?
So if you teach it in, he'sdone like biology, then it
doesn't apply to history.
So even though these are somevery general self regulation
(14:26):
study strategies, that contextcan serve as a reminder or even
limitation about, how you areapplying those study strategies.
more broadly, I argue, thatthere are some pretty simple
learning strategies that do relyon these principles of reminding
that really can make instructionmore effective and efficient.
We've talked, here a little bitabout, distributing practice,
(14:49):
about spacing that practice out.
and that's relying orincorporating a little bit
of reminding in your studyschedule, which is really
crucial to, long term retentionand application of the material.
But another big, effectiveand efficient strategy that
is likely really related iscalled retrieval practice.
(15:09):
And that's just where we, wherestudents are practicing getting
information and concepts out oflong term memory as a means of
changing their long term memory.
So just by practicing andtrying to get that information
out, you're actuallyimproving your ability
to do that in the future.
Again, that's really relatedto reminding because we
(15:30):
think of reminding as aprocess of retrieving prior
instances and using themin the current situation.
And so that process of remindingis really related to that
retrieval practice again, whichis one of those most effective
and efficient strategiesfor long term retention.
Host (15:49):
Jeffrey Anthon
During the course of yourresearch, has there been any
discoveries or outcomes thathave taken you by surprise?
Dr. Jonat (15:55):
Yeah, so many, right?
That's why we do this research.
It's often reallysurprising, sometimes in
really, exciting ways.
It's in reallydisappointing ways.
but yeah, there's a couplethat really stick out.
one, which I did during mypostdoc contrasting the process
of reminding with an explicitcompare and contrast process.
(16:15):
Explicit compare and contrastare thought to be pretty
useful for students in termsof generalizing knowledge.
You're looking at two examplesof, a deeper concept, and
you're trying to abstract awaywhat makes them similar or
what makes them different, andthat's thought to be, again,
a really efficient, effectiveway of generalizing knowledge.
We compared that process, thecompare and contrast process,
(16:38):
With a more reminding relatedprocess where they would study
individual items one at a time,and we would ask them, does this
make you think back to anythingthat you've previously studied?
And so what we found was,that, maybe not surprisingly,
the think back one at a timestructure, the reminding
structure, did produce bettermemory for the studied items.
(17:00):
So making them think back.
And retrieve or be remindedof those prior episodes was
really good for memory, butmore maybe more surprisingly,
the reminding think backone at a time structure
also produced more accurategeneralization of those ideas.
So where we thought the compareand contrast would be really
(17:21):
useful for generalizing, wefound that compare and contrast
actually produced really broadgeneralizations where students
were generalizing beyond whatwas appropriate, where the
one at a time produced moreappropriate generalizations.
Another example here.
that shows a little bit ofthe limitations of remindings
(17:43):
or a little bit of limitationof building connections is
that the reminding processmay actually impair memory
for the details of the contextof where you learn something.
So when you study these,discrete individual ideas
when you become reminded,it might enhance the
commonalities, between thosetwo examples, but it may
(18:04):
actually impair the differences.
It may actually impairthe memory for the
differences or detailsbetween the two examples.
So, yeah, it's reallyinteresting to think
that might be actuallyuseful because, we might.
that might be the start ofthe generalization process
to really focus on what's thecommonalities are and try to
(18:24):
inhibit or impair memory forthe differences and distinctions
that maybe don't matteras much, but it was really
interesting to see so prettyclear evidence that when you
are studying those relatedepisodes and you are building
those connections betweenthat related information,
there begins to be a processwhere you do lose some memory
(18:45):
for the details or context.
Host (18:47):
Jeffrey Anthony
Our memories, our brainsare just fascinating,
Dr. Jonathan Tulli (18:50):
aren't they?
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
Host (18:53):
Jeffrey Anthony
future, how do you imaginethe principles of remindings
and memory optimizationbeing integrated into daily
educational practices?
Dr. Jonatha (19:02):
Well, that's a huge interesting question.
I love it.
It's, uh, there's a lot ofbig, fun, interesting questions
that persist, or that stillexist in my research program.
I get, I can think of about20 different projects or
ideas that I currentlyhave right now about,
trying to understand theseprocesses a little bit more.
but, in the short term, Ican definitely see how our
(19:25):
mindings may impact, educationalpractices by providing a little
bit more guidance about howshould we be structuring the
organization examples whenwe are teaching students new
concepts, how should we bescheduling, the repetitions
of those concepts and thosepractice of those concepts.
Right, because at the moment, wecan see that, standard practices
(19:48):
probably aren't structured inthe most effective ways, right?
So when we look at currenttextbooks, for example, they
often do a lesson, let'ssay a math textbook, on
the addition of fractions.
And then they'll do a wholebunch of practice problems
on fraction addition.
What we would argue forreminding is that...
(20:10):
that's not the best strategy.
You don't want to bedoing the lesson and
then all of your practiceimmediately after the lesson.
Instead, you want to do thelesson, a few of the practice
problems, and then revisitthose practice problems
throughout, future instruction.
So again, this sort of idea ofdistributing practice, there's
good, again, good evidence fordistributing that practice to
(20:32):
enhance the reminding processes,to enhance the retrieval.
When I think, of really future,long term daily educational
practices, I began to thinkabout, is it possible that
we can begin to tailor someof our learning experiences
to individuals, right, toan individual's particular
(20:54):
experiences, to their particularinteractions with the materials,
in order to better supporttheir long term retention.
So can we account forthat initial learning?
Can we account for thoseinitial experiences, and program
out when might be the besttime to revisit this topic?
(21:14):
Or what might be the best nextexample to be providing to
this learner in order to helpthem make the connection, in
order to help them, generalizeit across those episodes?
Host (21:26):
Jeffrey Anthony
our guests for a book orpaper that has inspired you
and can you share one withus and maybe explain why
it was so important to you?
Dr. Jonathan Tullis (21:35):
Thank you.
Sure, I can talk about,sort of a more accessible
sort of popular pressbook that's really, really
fascinating and interesting.
It's called, 'Make It Stick, TheScience of Successful Learning.'
it's by Rodney Roediger.
It's just a really, interesting,fun read about, the cognitive
science behind differentlearning strategies and about
(21:57):
why these different learningstrategies are really useful.
It proposes some of theseideas um, that challenge
a lot of what we think orwhat we intuit are useful
strategies, that end up notbeing as useful or effective.
And, really focuses onstrategies that introduce
what we call desirabledifficulties into learning.
(22:19):
So it might slow down learning,it might make learning a little
bit more challenging initially.
But it, that those difficultiesthat it talks about are
actually really useful andeffective for, the long term
retention, the long termapplication of the knowledge.
So we talk about an examplehere that we've been talking
about today is a little bitof that retrieval practice.
(22:40):
When students study, theyoverwhelmingly prefer
or say that they studyby rereading, right?
They look back to their text,they reread it, they highlight
it sometimes, they underline it.
Because it feels really fluent.
It feels really good.
It feels like you'relearning a lot by doing that.
The desirable difficultiesperspective says it might
(23:01):
feel fluent, but it's notactually deeply engaging.
It's not a deeply engagingencoding strategy here.
Sometimes our deeply engagingencoding strategies need
you to put a little bitmore effort into it to
make those connections toprocess it more deeply.
So that's sort of theframework of the ideas that
it talks about in the book.
(23:22):
what are the effective learningstrategies and how does it
challenge some of our intuitionsabout what, Makes good learning.
Host: (23:31):
Well, that's fascinating.
I can actually see some conflictbetween our economy and this
style of learning where youwant to efficiency and to get
through things as quickly andas accurately as possible.
But if we look at a longertime frame, we can build
more capacity throughmore, engaging learning.
So in the future, we couldactually be, more productive.
But, I see that tensionthere between these temporal
(23:53):
frames, I guess you could
Dr. Jonathan Tullis (23:54):
say, there's really a tension there.
Because when you look at sortof short term retention or
short term learning, it's notthe same as long term retention
or long term learning, right?
The short term benefits ofsome of these strategies
are really good, but theyfade very quickly, right?
So just because you've masteredit in the very short term does
(24:15):
not actually mean it's goingto persist in the long term.
And so sometimes we have toslow down that initial learning.
Sometimes you have to makethe initial learning a little
bit more challenging ordifficult in the desirable
ways that the book talks aboutin order to really improve.
The long term, learning andretention and application
(24:35):
of those, concepts.
Host (24:37):
Jeffrey Anthon
Now, Dr.
Tullis, this conversationhas been a profound journey
through the cognitive landscapeand shape of how we learn
and remember your work isnot just a deep dive into the
mechanisms of memory, but alsoa beacon guiding away toward
a more effective and moreintuitive learning experiences.
We look forward to witnessinghow your research will
continue to inform educationalmethodologies and transform
(24:58):
our approach to learning.
And thank you listeners.
We hope you found today'sdiscussion with Dr.
Tullis as illuminatingas we did, and that it
inspires you to consider thecomplexities of cognition in
your own learning endeavors.
As always, we're back on thefirst and third Wednesdays
every month with freshinsights and conversations,
so be sure to tune in.
Until next time, keepyour curiosity alive.
(25:18):
And remember,knowledge is our oasis.
Jeffrey Anthony
University of Arizona Collegeof Education's podcast, here in
the heart of the Sonoran Desert.
We bring you conversations withour esteemed faculty members and
staff, whose research impactslives from southern Arizona to
the far reaches of the globe.
We explore the transformativepower of education in this
(00:21):
border town, where diversecultures and ideas converge,
weaving a tapestry ofinnovation with compassion
and a sense of wonder.
So join us as we journeythrough the sands of
curiosity, unearthing insightsthat enrich and inspire.
Sit back and relax aswe invite you to dive
into the Inquiry Oasis.
(00:44):
Welcome to another episodeof the Inquiry Oasis.
I'm your host, JeffreyAnthony, and today, we have the
privilege of speaking with Dr.
Jonathan Tullis, AssociateProfessor of Educational
Psychology and Director ofthe Cognition and Memory
in Education and LearningLab at the University of
Arizona College of Education.
Dr.
Tullis's work probes theintricate interplay between
cognitive processes andeducational practices, seeking
(01:07):
to harmonize our understandingof memory with the learning
environments we cultivate.
His research, which spansfrom the benefits of computer
programming on mathematicallearning to the nuances of
metacognition, is pushingthe boundaries of how
we optimize learning byaligning it with the natural
tendencies of our cognition.
In this session, we'llparticularly unpack the
fascinating dynamicsof "Remindings," a
(01:28):
central focus of Dr.
Tullis's recently funded NSFcareer grant, and delve into
its potential to reshapeour educational strategies.
So, without further ado,let's dive into this
journey of explorationand discovery with Dr.
Tullis here inthe Inquiry Oasis.
Doctor tell us.
It's an honor to haveyou with us today.
Dr. Jonathan Tullis (01:47):
Thanks so much for having me.
I'm excited to have this chat.
Host (01:50):
Jeffrey Anthony
So to begin, can you tell usabout the journey that brought
you to the forefront of researchand memory and learning?
Dr. Jonathan Tullis (01:57):
Yeah.
I grew up in afamily of educators.
My mom is an educator.
I've got a lot of aunts anduncles that were, teachers,
cousins that are teachers.
So I really alwaysunderstood the power and
promise of education.
So after college, I got anMED in high school science
and taught high school physicsand chemistry for a couple
(02:19):
of years in San Antonio.
it was incredibly tough work, soI really do appreciate teachers.
and so I didn't last too,too many years as a high
school teacher, but I reallyloved to think about how,
to help students learn.
I was really fascinatedto think about it.
How students rememberinformation, how students
access and use previouslylearned information.
(02:41):
Um, and so I really wanted tolearn more about that stuff.
therefore I entered a PhDprogram in cognitive psychology
at the University of Illinoisand found that I really
loved being a scholar incognitive psychology where
I could use creative ways oftesting different theories
about student learning.
(03:01):
I could gather and analyzedata to show what the best
ways to help students were.
It was just reallya great fit for me.
Host (03:09):
Jeffrey Anthony
So your research at the CAMELlab, which is short for the
cognition and memory andeducation and learning lab is
quite groundbreaking from whenI've read to prepare for this.
And can you give our listenersan overview of how memory and
learning environments intersectand the role "Remindings"
play in this relationship?
Dr. Jonathan (03:28):
Yeah, I'd love to.
So I take the view thatcognition reflects that
intersection between themind and the environment.
In other words, the environmentis largely shaping what we
remember, what we learn,what we can transfer and
apply in later situations.
So when we do examine learning,when we do examine cognition,
it's really vital to understandthat context, that environment
(03:50):
that it's happening in.
Two of the major aspects ofthe learning environment, that
I really examine and focus on,and that affect Remindings,
are the particular examplesthat we are exposed to, that
we study, that we learn, andthe timing and schedules,
that we see those examples.
So that first category,the initial examples that
we encounter or study,those initial examples
(04:13):
have a really importantplace in our cognition.
they largely shape, ourability to solve future
problems and how we categorizefuture examples or problems.
Let me provide an exampleof that, where research is
showing that, when novicephysics students are trying
to solve novel problems ornew problems, the problem
(04:36):
they're solving reminds them ofprior problems that they have
previously encountered, thatthey had previously solved.
And so these physics novicesthen use the prior problems to
help them solve the new problemsthat they're encountering.
So research is showing thatthese superficial features
of the problems they'reencountering are driving
(04:57):
the reminding process or theconnections that students
are building or creating.
In other words, if one problemhas an inclined plane, then
those novice or early physicsstudents will try to use a prior
problem that has an inclinedplane to solve the new problem,
even if they're about verydifferent actual principles,
(05:17):
like even if one is aboutconservation of energy and one
problem is about momentum, ifthey share those superficial
features like inclined planesor like a pulley or other
examples like that, they willtry to use the prior problem,
they'll be reminded of theprior problem and try to use
it to solve the novel problem.
So this is really important forteachers to be thinking about.
(05:40):
what are the specificexamples and instances
that we're providing tonovices, particularly when
introducing a novel concept?
Now the second major aspectof that learning environment
that I'm really interestedin and that I study And that
is crafted by the teacherin most cases, is the number
of exposures to the idea andparticularly the schedule of
(06:01):
those exposures or the scheduleof the practice that they get.
So lots and lots of prep, lotsand lots of research is showing
that spacing out or distributingpractice, distributing exposure
to concepts is really crucialto the long term retention
and use of those concepts.
Rather than massing orcramming things in a short
(06:22):
period of time, it's actuallyreally essential that we are
distributing practice, that weare spacing practice out, and
not just doing it all at onetime, but coming back to it.
And so these remindingframeworks that I study or
that I focus on suggest thatspacing out or distributing
practice is really importantbecause it forces learners to
(06:43):
exert a little bit more effort.
To draw the connections acrosstime, to retrieve what they
had previously done, andthat extra effort or extra
difficulty is actually reallyuseful or helpful for their
future ability to rememberand to apply that learning.
Host (06:59):
Jeffr
in my former career, beforeI started working at the
University of Arizona, I wasa professional musician and I
noticed when I was a serious,student, that if I spaced out,
my practices so that I wasn'tpracticing the same, let's say,
very complicated odd meter.
I was a drummer.
if I gave a day or twoin between, instead of
practicing every day, thatsome things would click.
(07:20):
what you just said,resonated with my own
lived experience there.
So that's fascinating.
so your career grantwhich is titled ' That
Reminds me the Causes andConsequences of Remindings,'
illuminates a fascinatingaspect of human cognition.
It touches on the veryessence of how new experiences
can spontaneously triggermemories of past events, which
you were just describing.
What inspired you to explorethis phenomenon, and how do
(07:42):
you anticipate this researchwill enhance our understanding
of learning and memory withinthe educational sphere?
Dr. Jonathan Tullis (07:49):
Yeah, so really long story short,
it's basically the firstproject that I worked on when
I was a graduate student.
My two advisors just put meon the project and said, go
for it, start learning, startfiguring this stuff out.
And, it really clicked with me,it really, resonated with me.
I see, I saw it as reallyimportant, and so I've just
really, haven't stoppedworking on it since that time.
(08:11):
As you said, reminding is whenwe are bringing back prior
knowledge or previously learnedinformation and applying it
to a new situation, right?
So we're um, using whatwe previously learned to
tackle novel problems.
These remindings are reallya fundamental or critical
aspect of human cognition.
Rather than thinking of themas a fluke or as something
(08:32):
not to really worry about orconsider, I try to highlight
how they are really importantand underlies some of the
most basic and consequentialmemory and cognitive phenomenon
that we know, including,why do repetitions of
information benefit learning?
Why does distributinginformation help
learning, right?
So some people have argued thatthese are not just a phenomenon
(08:55):
that happens just occasionallyor randomly, but rather, they're
really the crucial part ofthis cognition that allows
us to use prior knowledgein new novel situations.
But beyond that, our remindingsmay also be really important
because they might be able toproduce generalized knowledge.
(09:16):
In other words, it mightnot just be about using that
specific idea or conceptand applying it in a new
situation, but through theprocess of building that
connection and through theprocess of applying it in a
new situation, we might begeneralizing information, right?
We might be abstracting awayfrom those specific examples
(09:38):
and creating some more flexiblegeneral knowledge, which
is really crucial, right?
So this sort of goes in theface of a lot of the work in
cognitive psychology, especiallyin memory and even problem
solving, which really stressesor highlights the need for
studying unrelated conceptsso that you can assess each
(09:58):
concept individually so thatyour prior knowledge doesn't
unduly influence your memoryfor these new things that
we're studying and learning.
The work that I dosays, well, that's not
really realistic, right?
When we learn new stuff,it's related to other stuff.
When we learn a newinformation, it's connected
to what we already know.
And it's those connections,that really matter.
(10:20):
It's the relationships betweenthe information, that makes
a big impact on, what weknow, what we learn, and what
we can use in the future.
So rather than trying to,eliminate all relationships
between what we're learningand studying in order to get
a better understanding of howwe remember, I am, tackling
or trying to figure out, well,what about those relationships?
(10:43):
How do those relationshipsreally impact memory?
How do making those connectionsbetween instances and examples?
Help us understandemerging themes.
And that's really what Isee is, what we should be
doing in education, right?
In the educationalsphere, we don't want to
be learning disjointedpieces of information.
We want to bebuilding connections.
(11:04):
We want to be able tocreate clear and important,
accurate categories thatwe can solve and apply,
information in new settings.
So, yeah, that's, I think,in terms of impacting the
educational sphere, oneof those, one of the basic
building blocks, in education isreally acquiring knowledge and
concepts, ultimately rememberingand applying those later.
(11:27):
And so, remindings orbuilding those connections,
is really crucial to that.
But then even more challengingthan that is creating
knowledge that generalizesbeyond those learned examples.
That's often called theproblem of transfer, right?
When students learn something,they don't often transfer it
in ways that we would hopethat they would transfer it.
(11:48):
They don't often applyit to related problems.
So reminding is one, oneexplanation or one perspective
about how we can try to supportthat process in learners.
We can try to support thembuilding connections so that
they can then abstract awaythose themes so they can then
apply it in new settings.
Host (12:10):
Jeffr
It reminds me a little bit ofJohn Dewey's concept of habits
and how habits can be usedto inform how you can react
in a specific context whereyou don't necessarily are on
autopilot, but the habits youhave will can inform new ways to
engage within your environment.
Dr. Jonatha (12:28):
Yeah, that's really interesting to think about.
So that's something that wecan examine in the future is
that are people, are there somepeople that have these habits
where they are looking out forconnections, where they are
looking out for how is this newinformation related to what I
already know and whether those,maybe that's an individual
difference between learnersand, what are the consequences
(12:50):
or what drives thoseindividual differences even?
Host (12:53):
J
relevance to the academiccommunity we're at here at
the University of Arizona.
Why do you believe thisresearch holds significance
for the University of Arizona?
Dr. Jonathan Tullis (13:03):
Yeah, I think, one of the core missions,
of the University of Arizonais, effective, efficient,
education of our students, andthese remindings play a big
role in many different layersor levels of that instruction.
So one of my graduatestudents, Jiayu Li, for
example, is working on astudy that's looking on how
(13:23):
students control or regulatetheir own study, right?
So when they go off and theyare making their own study
choices, when they're tryingto master or learn a topic
on their own outside of theclassroom, they're, they engage
in specific study strategies.
What he's found is that you canteach them some study skills
(13:43):
in a particular domain, right?
You can teach them, oh,this is what we want to be
doing, is some metacognitivereflection about what
you've learned well and whatyou haven't learned well.
What he finds is that if youteach them that in a specific
domain, that domain that Ican serve as a reminder in the
future and can, reinstantiatethose study strategies later.
(14:05):
But it also serves as sort of alimitation such that they don't
extend those study strategiesand self regulation processes
beyond that domain, right?
So if you teach it in, he'sdone like biology, then it
doesn't apply to history.
So even though these are somevery general self regulation
(14:26):
study strategies, that contextcan serve as a reminder or even
limitation about, how you areapplying those study strategies.
more broadly, I argue, thatthere are some pretty simple
learning strategies that do relyon these principles of reminding
that really can make instructionmore effective and efficient.
We've talked, here a little bitabout, distributing practice,
(14:49):
about spacing that practice out.
and that's relying orincorporating a little bit
of reminding in your studyschedule, which is really
crucial to, long term retentionand application of the material.
But another big, effectiveand efficient strategy that
is likely really related iscalled retrieval practice.
(15:09):
And that's just where we, wherestudents are practicing getting
information and concepts out oflong term memory as a means of
changing their long term memory.
So just by practicing andtrying to get that information
out, you're actuallyimproving your ability
to do that in the future.
Again, that's really relatedto reminding because we
(15:30):
think of reminding as aprocess of retrieving prior
instances and using themin the current situation.
And so that process of remindingis really related to that
retrieval practice again, whichis one of those most effective
and efficient strategiesfor long term retention.
Host (15:49):
Jeffrey Anthon
During the course of yourresearch, has there been any
discoveries or outcomes thathave taken you by surprise?
Dr. Jonat (15:55):
Yeah, so many, right?
That's why we do this research.
It's often reallysurprising, sometimes in
really, exciting ways.
It's in reallydisappointing ways.
but yeah, there's a couplethat really stick out.
one, which I did during mypostdoc contrasting the process
of reminding with an explicitcompare and contrast process.
(16:15):
Explicit compare and contrastare thought to be pretty
useful for students in termsof generalizing knowledge.
You're looking at two examplesof, a deeper concept, and
you're trying to abstract awaywhat makes them similar or
what makes them different, andthat's thought to be, again,
a really efficient, effectiveway of generalizing knowledge.
We compared that process, thecompare and contrast process,
(16:38):
With a more reminding relatedprocess where they would study
individual items one at a time,and we would ask them, does this
make you think back to anythingthat you've previously studied?
And so what we found was,that, maybe not surprisingly,
the think back one at a timestructure, the reminding
structure, did produce bettermemory for the studied items.
(17:00):
So making them think back.
And retrieve or be remindedof those prior episodes was
really good for memory, butmore maybe more surprisingly,
the reminding think backone at a time structure
also produced more accurategeneralization of those ideas.
So where we thought the compareand contrast would be really
(17:21):
useful for generalizing, wefound that compare and contrast
actually produced really broadgeneralizations where students
were generalizing beyond whatwas appropriate, where the
one at a time produced moreappropriate generalizations.
Another example here.
that shows a little bit ofthe limitations of remindings
(17:43):
or a little bit of limitationof building connections is
that the reminding processmay actually impair memory
for the details of the contextof where you learn something.
So when you study these,discrete individual ideas
when you become reminded,it might enhance the
commonalities, between thosetwo examples, but it may
(18:04):
actually impair the differences.
It may actually impairthe memory for the
differences or detailsbetween the two examples.
So, yeah, it's reallyinteresting to think
that might be actuallyuseful because, we might.
that might be the start ofthe generalization process
to really focus on what's thecommonalities are and try to
(18:24):
inhibit or impair memory forthe differences and distinctions
that maybe don't matteras much, but it was really
interesting to see so prettyclear evidence that when you
are studying those relatedepisodes and you are building
those connections betweenthat related information,
there begins to be a processwhere you do lose some memory
(18:45):
for the details or context.
Host (18:47):
Jeffrey Anthony
Our memories, our brainsare just fascinating,
Dr. Jonathan Tulli (18:50):
aren't they?
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah.
Host (18:53):
Jeffrey Anthony
future, how do you imaginethe principles of remindings
and memory optimizationbeing integrated into daily
educational practices?
Dr. Jonatha (19:02):
Well, that's a huge interesting question.
I love it.
It's, uh, there's a lot ofbig, fun, interesting questions
that persist, or that stillexist in my research program.
I get, I can think of about20 different projects or
ideas that I currentlyhave right now about,
trying to understand theseprocesses a little bit more.
but, in the short term, Ican definitely see how our
(19:25):
mindings may impact, educationalpractices by providing a little
bit more guidance about howshould we be structuring the
organization examples whenwe are teaching students new
concepts, how should we bescheduling, the repetitions
of those concepts and thosepractice of those concepts.
Right, because at the moment, wecan see that, standard practices
(19:48):
probably aren't structured inthe most effective ways, right?
So when we look at currenttextbooks, for example, they
often do a lesson, let'ssay a math textbook, on
the addition of fractions.
And then they'll do a wholebunch of practice problems
on fraction addition.
What we would argue forreminding is that...
(20:10):
that's not the best strategy.
You don't want to bedoing the lesson and
then all of your practiceimmediately after the lesson.
Instead, you want to do thelesson, a few of the practice
problems, and then revisitthose practice problems
throughout, future instruction.
So again, this sort of idea ofdistributing practice, there's
good, again, good evidence fordistributing that practice to
(20:32):
enhance the reminding processes,to enhance the retrieval.
When I think, of really future,long term daily educational
practices, I began to thinkabout, is it possible that
we can begin to tailor someof our learning experiences
to individuals, right, toan individual's particular
(20:54):
experiences, to their particularinteractions with the materials,
in order to better supporttheir long term retention.
So can we account forthat initial learning?
Can we account for thoseinitial experiences, and program
out when might be the besttime to revisit this topic?
(21:14):
Or what might be the best nextexample to be providing to
this learner in order to helpthem make the connection, in
order to help them, generalizeit across those episodes?
Host (21:26):
Jeffrey Anthony
our guests for a book orpaper that has inspired you
and can you share one withus and maybe explain why
it was so important to you?
Dr. Jonathan Tullis (21:35):
Thank you.
Sure, I can talk about,sort of a more accessible
sort of popular pressbook that's really, really
fascinating and interesting.
It's called, 'Make It Stick, TheScience of Successful Learning.'
it's by Rodney Roediger.
It's just a really, interesting,fun read about, the cognitive
science behind differentlearning strategies and about
(21:57):
why these different learningstrategies are really useful.
It proposes some of theseideas um, that challenge
a lot of what we think orwhat we intuit are useful
strategies, that end up notbeing as useful or effective.
And, really focuses onstrategies that introduce
what we call desirabledifficulties into learning.
(22:19):
So it might slow down learning,it might make learning a little
bit more challenging initially.
But it, that those difficultiesthat it talks about are
actually really useful andeffective for, the long term
retention, the long termapplication of the knowledge.
So we talk about an examplehere that we've been talking
about today is a little bitof that retrieval practice.
(22:40):
When students study, theyoverwhelmingly prefer
or say that they studyby rereading, right?
They look back to their text,they reread it, they highlight
it sometimes, they underline it.
Because it feels really fluent.
It feels really good.
It feels like you'relearning a lot by doing that.
The desirable difficultiesperspective says it might
(23:01):
feel fluent, but it's notactually deeply engaging.
It's not a deeply engagingencoding strategy here.
Sometimes our deeply engagingencoding strategies need
you to put a little bitmore effort into it to
make those connections toprocess it more deeply.
So that's sort of theframework of the ideas that
it talks about in the book.
(23:22):
what are the effective learningstrategies and how does it
challenge some of our intuitionsabout what, Makes good learning.
Host: (23:31):
Well, that's fascinating.
I can actually see some conflictbetween our economy and this
style of learning where youwant to efficiency and to get
through things as quickly andas accurately as possible.
But if we look at a longertime frame, we can build
more capacity throughmore, engaging learning.
So in the future, we couldactually be, more productive.
But, I see that tensionthere between these temporal
(23:53):
frames, I guess you could
Dr. Jonathan Tullis (23:54):
say, there's really a tension there.
Because when you look at sortof short term retention or
short term learning, it's notthe same as long term retention
or long term learning, right?
The short term benefits ofsome of these strategies
are really good, but theyfade very quickly, right?
So just because you've masteredit in the very short term does
(24:15):
not actually mean it's goingto persist in the long term.
And so sometimes we have toslow down that initial learning.
Sometimes you have to makethe initial learning a little
bit more challenging ordifficult in the desirable
ways that the book talks aboutin order to really improve.
The long term, learning andretention and application
(24:35):
of those, concepts.
Host (24:37):
Jeffrey Anthon
Now, Dr.
Tullis, this conversationhas been a profound journey
through the cognitive landscapeand shape of how we learn
and remember your work isnot just a deep dive into the
mechanisms of memory, but alsoa beacon guiding away toward
a more effective and moreintuitive learning experiences.
We look forward to witnessinghow your research will
continue to inform educationalmethodologies and transform
(24:58):
our approach to learning.
And thank you listeners.
We hope you found today'sdiscussion with Dr.
Tullis as illuminatingas we did, and that it
inspires you to consider thecomplexities of cognition in
your own learning endeavors.
As always, we're back on thefirst and third Wednesdays
every month with freshinsights and conversations,
so be sure to tune in.
Until next time, keepyour curiosity alive.
(25:18):
And remember,knowledge is our oasis.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com