January 31, 2025 • 31 mins
Caroline Biesalski welcomes Traycee Mayer to discuss the critical topic of work-life balance. Traycee shares insights from her book, "The Leadership Contradiction," and explores the nuances between leadership and management, with a focus on employee retention. She recounts her transition from a corporate role to entrepreneurship and highlights the importance of cultivating a growth mindset. The conversation delves into leadership challenges and the significance of creating space for employees. Traycee shares her future goals and experiences on the Camino. The episode wraps up with contact information, closing thoughts, a preview of the next episode, and a sponsor offering a free 20-minute breakthrough session.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
You know?
I know, you know, work-life balance was a thingfor a while, but I don't think it needs to be a
thing.
I just think we just need to have a life andthat our job is only part of it.
And so, yeah, I think that a true leader that'sgoing to be successful is going to tap into the
(00:22):
unique inherent qualities of each of thoseemployees and help support them in being the
best that they can be, inside and outside ofwork.
Welcome to Inspired Choice Today.
I'm your host, Caroline Biesalski, here tobring you authentic stories, surprising
lessons, and powerful takeaways to fuel yourjourney in business and life.
(00:45):
In each episode, I'll take you from oneinspiring guest to the next, blending their
experiences with my expertise to uncoverpractical strategies you can use right away.
Whether you're starting out or stepping up,stay tuned for insights and actionable tips
that make a difference, and stick around untilthe end for a special freebie just for our
(01:09):
listeners.
Hello, and welcome, inspired podcast community.
This is your new episode.
My name is Caroline, and my today's guest isTraycee Mayer, and I'm so happy that she's here
with me.
How are you doing today?
I'm wonderful, Caroline, and I'm so excited.
(01:30):
I've been looking forward to our time togetherand can't wait to rock it together.
Thank you so much for saying yes, and I wouldlove to introduce you to the audience.
Of course, you are an expert in guiding leadersto harness the power of human connection for
remarkable success in their careers and teams.
(01:51):
You specialize in helping senior leaders driveaccountability, productivity, and financial
results by improving leadership presence andadopting a growth mindset.
You also equip leaders with tools to attractand retain top talent while getting the best
out of every team member.
As an executive leader, trainer, coach,entrepreneur, and author of the five-star rated
(02:15):
book, The Leadership Contradiction, you shareboth your successes and challenges to help
others grow.
Welcome to the Inspired Choice Today podcast,Traycee Mayer.
Thank you.
I'm so excited to be here, Caroline.
Thank you.
Recognize yourself?
I didn't
I do recognize, and it's very humbling.
Thank you for sharing that.
(02:37):
So
so much for joining.
So my first question is, in your book, TheLeadership Contradiction, what are the key
takeaways for leaders looking to improve theirteam dynamics and performance?
Oh, that's a great question.
And there's so many takeaways.
In fact, I've seen people who have the bookdog-eared and tagged, and there's so many
(02:59):
practical things that you could start on rightaway.
But the premise of the book is The LeadershipContradiction is really kind of calling out to
the fact that leaders who are not connected totheir employees and who are not aware of who
they are as leaders and really just focus onthemselves and don't treat their employees
(03:22):
well, you know, all of these negative, dark,fearful behaviors, I believe, disqualify them
from being a leader.
In my opinion, and I coined the term leadershipcontradiction, they disqualify themselves from
(03:45):
being a leader and they become just a boss.
You know?
And these are the types of, quote, unquote,leaders that people leave.
This is where highly qualified individuals andtop talent just leave.
They fire their bosses by walking out the doorand saying I've had enough.
And, you know, so the leadership contradictionis saying, you know what?
(04:09):
There's a way to be a leader through connectingauthentically with your employees, paying
attention to who they are, valuing them, seeingthem, hearing them.
And so my goal, after 40-plus years inleadership positions myself and having trained
(04:32):
and developed hundreds of different leaders, isto help leaders that are struggling, to help
new leaders, to help teams who have problemsconnecting because they have a leader who's
negative or who tries to put them against eachother.
You know, all of this old-school stuff thatdoesn't work anymore for truly great employees.
(04:57):
So that's a little bit of, I guess, what thatleadership connection is—or contradiction,
excuse me—and is not being connected to youremployees and trying to lead people not in a
way that they want to be led.
Yes.
Thank you so much for pointing this out.
The difference between leader, manager, I wouldadd, and boss.
(05:21):
Being the boss, being bossy, you have this wordin English.
Yeah.
You are so bossy.
I love that.
No.
I mean, I love what in general, playing withwhat.
And I learned about leadership and thedifference between leaders and managers as
well.
So people always join companies and they leavemanagers or leaders.
(05:41):
You said this.
This, like, voting by feet, we call it
in Germany.
When they go out of the door, they leave thecompany as well, and this is the sign.
So I think it's a topic not many people talkabout.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
I think so.
I think they feel like they're gonna, you know,gonna be in trouble or they're going to you
(06:05):
know, they just can't do anything about itbecause that person's in the senior role.
And I say that's not true at all.
In fact, I just heard the term a couple of daysago, firing your boss, and that is by leaving
the company.
Because if you're talented and you are skilledand you're making the company money and you
were hired in the first place to do a certaintask for a certain amount of money, well, then
(06:32):
they valued you then.
But as time goes on, when you're not treatedwell, you know, you fire your boss by leaving
the company and going to work for a competitoror someone else.
You know, it's the time of the universe whenemployees care about how they're treated at
(06:54):
work.
You know?
I still do come across people, of course, thatI coach who are struggling with, you know, my
boss doesn't treat me well.
I don't think I could get a different job.
I'm just gonna have to suck it up and put upwith it.
And, you know, nobody else would want me ifthey found out I just quit my job.
And I say, you know, garbage to all of thatbecause I think it's not true.
(07:18):
I think if you value yourself, you value whatyou're contributing to the company, and you're
not getting the respect and the connection fromthe person that leads you, then by all means,
you know, walk on and go somewhere else.
Start your own business.
Be in a different leadership role.
(07:38):
There are so many people who just need thestrength and courage to say that and, you know,
at the same time, I am coaching privately a lotof senior leaders who have gotten in trouble
for behaving in such a terrible way and actinglike people don't have choices because they're
(08:02):
finding out that it's not true.
Employees can leave.
And at the end of the day, it's not theemployees so much anymore, but it's the leaders
who are negatively affecting the company.
Because if they're not leading the qualityemployees correctly, they're the ones who are
(08:22):
damaging the company.
So, you know, the ones that realize that,either by themselves or because maybe HR has
gotten involved, and sometimes attorneysbecause employees are suing bosses who are
causing them emotional stress.
And, you know, I get a chance to interject andget in the middle of that and say, okay.
(08:47):
Let's privately talk about some of the behaviorand why being a tough guy, tough girl,
whichever, you know, doesn't matter, man orwoman.
There's a lot of, you know, there's both outthere that are just bosses who are, you know,
so negative and so focused on their own egothat they forget that they need to pay
(09:10):
attention and give their employees time andsupport and see them for the quality employees
they are.
So, you know, times are changing.
I love how on the back of your platform there,it says stories of change, and that's exactly
(09:31):
what's happening in the workforce.
You know?
I know we have five generations of workforcecurrently in the workplace.
And I believe, not only is Gen Z driving this,but also, you know, people, you know, the, you
(09:54):
know, Generation X, you know, the people thatare I'm kind of, like, at the top of Generation
X.
I'm not a baby boomer.
I'm on the X and on the edge of the X.
And, you know, so I grew up with all the oldschool, you know, things of you gotta do this,
you gotta do that.
You know, you have to go out every night afterwork and have cocktails with your bosses so
(10:15):
that you can look like you're showing up.
And I think that's all baloney.
I don't think that none of that's the case.
I think that people are taking back theirlives.
Those, you know, like myself, you know, I justturned 59, and I, you know, I quit my last
corporate job last year and said I'm not doingit anymore.
You know, you can't give me a big enough titleor a big enough salary to make me feel terrible
(10:40):
every day.
Just not gonna happen.
So instead, I started my own business, BULeadership, to help develop others and to help
people in the workplace that know that there'sa better way to go to work every day.
And I can help, you know, either end of that.
So I'm so excited to talk to you today about,you know, just inspiring stories about human
(11:06):
connection.
At the end of the day, it's about that.
People are demanding no less today.
Yes.
That's so true.
It's about connecting.
You talked about connecting, the leader has toconnect with their employees and ensure that
they are able to execute their job correctly.
And what you said about the leaders in at theend, they are responsible for the results,
(11:31):
let's say, and also for the damage.
You use this word.
Mhmm.
This word damage, and it's so important topoint that out and also to know that we always
have the choice.
That's why I named my podcast that way.
And stories of change, normally, it's storiesof change and success because when you are all
(11:51):
open to the change, then it will lead you tosuccess.
And this is what I point out with the storiesof my guests like you.
And congratulations.
First of all, you had your birthday, and youmade a decision to leave the corporate world
and build your own business.
This is very courageous, and for me, it is aleading example.
(12:17):
Oh, well, thank you so much.
And, you know, it wasn't always easy, Caroline.
I think that I, you know, particularly the lastcorporate job I had, I just, you know, I pushed
through, and I felt that there was this trustbetween my boss and I, and it turned out to not
be real.
And, you know, it was a blessing in disguiseto, you know, I thought I was doing all the
(12:43):
right stuff, and I thought that we had a greatconnection.
And, you know, when push came to shove, itwasn't like that.
And, it was painful, and it was hurtful.
And, you know, the connection that I thought wehad just began to disintegrate.
You know?
And one of the ways that I noticed that, and Italk about this in the book that I wrote last
(13:05):
year as well, "The Leadership Contradiction,"is that, you know, having one-on-one time with
your boss, it's not just about the employee'sresponsibility.
Again, putting more of the emphasis on theboss.
You know, we're hired because they know we havea certain amount of skills, but it's not our
job to develop the relationship constantly andkiss up to the boss so that they could like us.
(13:28):
The boss, you know, needs to pay attention tothe employee and schedule a weekly or bimonthly
one-on-one where they can ask you, you know,how's your job?
What do you need?
You know, what we can do to support you?
You know, and the boss should not talk thewhole time.
(13:49):
It should be the employee talking 80% of thetime, the boss talking 20% of the time.
But what happens more than often is not only isthe boss just talking the whole time about
themselves, they cancel the meetings, you know,because they're too important.
They've got busy things to do.
They've got a report or whatever.
(14:10):
When at the end of the day, the most importantasset that they have is the employees that work
for them.
And so they end up not spending time with them,feeling like they're not doing their job, and
they fire these people.
When in reality, it's the boss that should befired.
(14:30):
Not always, okay?
There are some bad employees out there.
So I've been in leadership for more than 40years.
So I know that there are some bad employees outthere.
But, there's also some bad leaders.
You know?
And it's possible that, you know, it's likelythat I didn't always do things right either,
and, actually, I talk about that in my book.
(14:51):
You know?
I made some mistakes.
You know?
That's how we learn.
But I also know that some of the employees thatI was able to spend time with and really give
them attention are those that flourish.
You know?
The same with me.
I remember the bosses that helped me flourishand let me take the inherent skills that I had
(15:15):
and apply it to their company.
That's when people really grow.
Yeah.
So I get really passionate about this sort ofthing.
Thank you so much for sharing this.
Reminds me, like, we've always remembered theleaders that made us feel the happiest or the
most seen and heard, of course.
(15:36):
And lastly, so much, of course.
I have another question for you.
How do you help leaders cultivate a growthmindset while driving accountability and
productivity within their organization?
Oh, that's a wonderful question.
And the answer may not be what most would seem.
(15:57):
The best way to cultivate productivity and toget the best response and results out of your
employees is to see them and hear them and tohave a personal connection with them.
When we just treat our employees as though, youknow, they're a piece of paper that we hired
(16:18):
and they have the job requirements for the job,we're missing the opportunity to treat them as
unique individuals.
You know?
I believe that everybody is uniquely equippedto do their job, but do it in their way.
And I think that the true path to success forleaders is to tap into what are those amazing
(16:45):
skills that the employees have, and care aboutthem as human beings.
Care about, you know, if they have a family.
Care about, you know, do they like to, youknow, do something particular for a vacation
that you could ask about, you know, coming upin a couple of months?
It's just caring about the human.
(17:06):
You know, we are all human beings, and I thinkthis has been, you know, a tough last three or
four years.
I think that is only emphasized that there'smore to our life than our job.
We may spend 40 hours at a job, but we all wantour life back.
(17:26):
We want to be with our families.
We want to vacation.
We want to come home in the afternoon and seeour child or our grandchild's baseball game or
do things that balance our lives.
You know?
I know, you know, work-life balance was a thingfor a while, but I don't think it needs to be a
(17:48):
thing.
I just think we just need to have a life andthat our job is only part of it.
And, so, yeah, I think that a true leaderthat's going to be successful is going to tap
into the unique inherent qualities of each ofthose employees and help support them in being
(18:10):
the best that they could be, inside and outsideof work.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Being authentic as well and doing it their way,you pointed out, we are so valuable, and we are
human beings as well.
And I think the task or, yeah, theresponsibility of a leader is also to create
the space.
You talked about meetings being canceledbecause it was not important for them.
(18:35):
So yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And, you know, being a normal human being as aleader, like, you're not any better because you
have a title and you get paid more money.
You know, I used to do this really fun thing atmany of the jobs that I was a leader in.
I would call it a 2 o'clock walk.
(18:56):
And at 2 o'clock for 10 minutes, I would inviteanybody in a manager or leadership position, on
salary, of course, to just come out for a walkand walk around the building.
And it would be a chance to chitchat aboutsomething that was important at work or talk
(19:17):
about their weekend or just get 10 minutes offresh air and exercise.
But the 2 o'clock walk, I did it in manyplaces, was just to kind of help remind us that
we're all normal human beings.
And getting some fresh air and walking for afew minutes is a good way to restart your day
(19:38):
and show each other that you care about them asa person.
You know, being in an office for eight hours orin a manufacturing plant, just grinding out
that job was not the key to success.
Yeah.
Yes.
I love this idea of restarting during the day.
(20:00):
Yeah.
A deep breath and then have a conversation withthe leader.
Yes.
Thank you so much for sharing.
Of course, I have another question (20:09):
What are the most common leadership challenges you've
seen, and how do you guide leaders inovercoming them for long-term success?
Excellent.
The most common leadership traits are probablyjust displaying their ego too much, being
(20:29):
concerned with their role in the company, and,gosh, you know, also not having the ability to
individually manage their team.
And what I mean by that is first, they thinkit's all about them, and we all know how
(20:53):
that—we don't need to get into that.
It's just being too much focused on them whenit really needs to be focused on the employees,
and then not treating every employee the same.
I've said many times that I don't thinkemployees need to be treated fairly, and it's a
quote that's been all over the world that I'vesaid in my book, but there's more to it.
(21:14):
It's not from regards to a DE&I standpoint orHR or compensation.
It's about that individual human, and and thething and and who they are.
You know, we're all unique.
But it's it's actually, I think the biggestmistake, people make, as an example.
(21:36):
You know, I was I was, in a a large sales team,and and, even as a senior leader, I had a boss.
And, you know, we weren't making our salesgoals, right, as a as a team.
But there were three or four of us who wereexceeding the goals.
Well, instead of the boss or leader going tothe people who were struggling and saying, what
(21:59):
do you need for help?
How can the other team members or how can Ihelp you get your goals?
They brought everybody into the room andreprimanded everybody because everybody was in
trouble.
You know, we weren't making the numbers, and hewas in trouble with his boss.
So there's his ego again.
Right?
And everybody leaves feeling deflated, feelinglike they didn't do their job well enough when
(22:25):
in actuality, several of us were exceeding ourgoals.
And then we're the ones who are gonna feelworse about it because we, you know, we're high
achievers, and we wanna do more.
So I would challenge leaders that, you know, ifyou've got one employee or two employees that
need some special attention, take the time andgive it to them.
You know?
Don't don't treat everybody the same as though,you know, you don't have the courage to pull
(22:51):
one person aside and say, you know, you need todo better and here's how, you know, tell me how
I can help you.
They they just destroy the the the the the comthe camaraderie of the whole team because they
don't know how to help lift up one person.
So that that to me is one of the biggestmistakes, and I've seen it happen time and time
(23:13):
again over the years.
So don't make that mistake.
Yeah.
I would tell leaders.
Which is important.
Yes.
It's about not being selfish, of course, andalso, I think not being arrogant because when
they think they are the leader and the otherones don't count, that's so yes.
(23:35):
So my question, my next question is about yourgoals because you talked about goals already.
What are your next goals?
Do you set goals, and what is one of your nextprojects?
Oh, wonderful.
So, gosh.
Thank you for asking me that.
I don't know that I've ever been asked that.
But, so I just returned last week from Spain.
(23:56):
I went to Madrid and from there to Sarria,Spain, to begin walking the Camino de Santiago.
And so I spent seven days in pouring rain,walking the countryside of northern Spain, and
(24:17):
really thinking about what my next goals are.
And, you know, one of the things that I'mwrapping up that has been a long project, now
coming to fruition, is an oracle deck forleaders.
It's called The Leader Paths, and the cardswill be pictures.
(24:42):
They're pictures that I have taken myself ondifferent trips I've taken around the world,
and different paths, and talking about thedifferent choices we have as leaders and giving
some insight to that.
So I'm currently working on that and hope tohave that out and at least a tease on my
(25:03):
website in the next couple of months, so it canbe finished by the first of the year, if not
sooner.
And so I'm excited because it'll be a bit of acompanion to the book I published last year,
Leadership Contradiction.
And other than that, just continuing to grow mycoaching business and helping to uplift
(25:26):
leaders, either one at a time in privatecoaching or a combination of private coaching
and team coaching, which I found some greatsuccess in and really enjoy doing.
So it's taking the best part of my 40-plusyears in leadership and doing that favorite
part, which is lifting people up and helping todevelop them.
(25:50):
So that's what's coming up.
I absolutely love Oracle decks.
And yeah.
And thank you so much for sharing and doingthis.
When you were talking, I saw this, I saw thepath of leadership and also the places all
around the world you were in without knowing,of course, when I heard about the Camino, El
(26:14):
Camino, the path of the Saint Jacob.
And I have to tell you, my youngest son isnamed Jacob after the, you know, because
there's the younger Jacob and the elder one,and we named him after the, how's the name?
The Jacob.
The the
Actually, I think they refer there's a coupledifferent ones, but I think that the Saint
(26:39):
James Cathedral is where the walk ends nomatter if you're coming from France or from
Portugal or from southeastern Spain, or Irelandor yeah.
So, yeah, it's a pretty phenomenal thing.
(26:59):
I may be doing it again next year, so I'll keepyou posted too.
Taking a team of people who are interested.
Yeah.
Oh, thank you so much for sharing.
I never did this, so I never visited thatplace, but I know Santiago de Compostela.
Now I know.
Yes.
I'm staying, of course, in Catalan.
Catalan.
(27:20):
I don't know how you call it.
Well, and there's so many videos on YouTube.
If you're interested in exploring it, Mari, youcan explore the Camino.
And, I think behind me here, I don't know ifyou can see it, but that's my passport for all
the locations I've visited within the Caminobecause you do get passport stamps along the
(27:42):
way at small little cafes and in these littletowns that you pass through that are hundreds
or thousands of years old.
It's just absolutely beautiful.
So we'll have to have another conversation downthe road on the oracle cards and some more
insight into leadership.
I see it.
Thank you so much.
(28:02):
And there are also books, of course, aboutPaulo Coelho.
You know this about when he went the path.
Yes.
I love this so much.
Thank you for sharing.
And now is time for your last thoughts, finalthoughts to the audience, please.
Well, thank you.
And so, yes, the book "The Pilgrimage" by PauloCoelho is excellent.
(28:26):
I read that as well.
You know, we only have one life, and we are alldifferent and unique people.
And so I would say take today to be curious andbe curious about other people that are in your
lives, whether they're people that you workwith or people that are in your family or
(28:48):
people that are in community groups that you'rewithin, that you really can change another
person's life by giving them just a few minutesof curiosity and connection.
And you don't have to know them to be curiousabout who they are and to be kind and lend them
(29:10):
a word of love and kindness.
So, you know, it's all up to each of usindividually to move forward and try to do
that.
And if you need help doing that, I'm happy tohelp guide you.
I do free 30-minute sessions, and you can findthat on my website.
And I'm welcome to talk to you and see if I canhelp you because I love what I do.
(29:38):
I love supporting others, and I have 40 yearsof leadership to back it up and a few
credentials, but that's you know?
Oh, thank you so much for sharing.
Yes.
I will put it in the show notes, of course,your links.
Please reach out to Traycee.
She's amazing.
She shares her knowledge with us, her wisdom,from all those years, and all you reach out to
(30:04):
me.
I will introduce you.
Of course, we know how to find you, where tofind you, and thank you again for this
interview.
You're welcome.
It's a pleasure to have met you, Caroline, andI know that we will remain friends and looking
forward to this journey together.
We are connected now, and I'll see you in thenext episode.
(30:28):
Thank you for listening to Inspired ChoiceToday.
I'm thrilled to have you on this journey ofgrowth and transformation.
Don't forget to hit follow or subscribe to stayconnected and never miss an episode.
And here's something special (30:41):
Grab your free 20-minute breakthrough session with me.
It's designed to help you kick-start or levelup your business.
Just check out the show notes for more.
Until next time, keep making those inspiredchoices and see you in the next
episode.
You know?
I know, you know, work-life balance was a thingfor a while, but I don't think it needs to be a
thing.
I just think we just need to have a life andthat our job is only part of it.
And so, yeah, I think that a true leader that'sgoing to be successful is going to tap into the
(00:22):
unique inherent qualities of each of thoseemployees and help support them in being the
best that they can be, inside and outside ofwork.
Welcome to Inspired Choice Today.
I'm your host, Caroline Biesalski, here tobring you authentic stories, surprising
lessons, and powerful takeaways to fuel yourjourney in business and life.
(00:45):
In each episode, I'll take you from oneinspiring guest to the next, blending their
experiences with my expertise to uncoverpractical strategies you can use right away.
Whether you're starting out or stepping up,stay tuned for insights and actionable tips
that make a difference, and stick around untilthe end for a special freebie just for our
(01:09):
listeners.
Hello, and welcome, inspired podcast community.
This is your new episode.
My name is Caroline, and my today's guest isTraycee Mayer, and I'm so happy that she's here
with me.
How are you doing today?
I'm wonderful, Caroline, and I'm so excited.
(01:30):
I've been looking forward to our time togetherand can't wait to rock it together.
Thank you so much for saying yes, and I wouldlove to introduce you to the audience.
Of course, you are an expert in guiding leadersto harness the power of human connection for
remarkable success in their careers and teams.
(01:51):
You specialize in helping senior leaders driveaccountability, productivity, and financial
results by improving leadership presence andadopting a growth mindset.
You also equip leaders with tools to attractand retain top talent while getting the best
out of every team member.
As an executive leader, trainer, coach,entrepreneur, and author of the five-star rated
(02:15):
book, The Leadership Contradiction, you shareboth your successes and challenges to help
others grow.
Welcome to the Inspired Choice Today podcast,Traycee Mayer.
Thank you.
I'm so excited to be here, Caroline.
Thank you.
Recognize yourself?
I didn't
I do recognize, and it's very humbling.
Thank you for sharing that.
(02:37):
So
so much for joining.
So my first question is, in your book, TheLeadership Contradiction, what are the key
takeaways for leaders looking to improve theirteam dynamics and performance?
Oh, that's a great question.
And there's so many takeaways.
In fact, I've seen people who have the bookdog-eared and tagged, and there's so many
(02:59):
practical things that you could start on rightaway.
But the premise of the book is The LeadershipContradiction is really kind of calling out to
the fact that leaders who are not connected totheir employees and who are not aware of who
they are as leaders and really just focus onthemselves and don't treat their employees
(03:22):
well, you know, all of these negative, dark,fearful behaviors, I believe, disqualify them
from being a leader.
In my opinion, and I coined the term leadershipcontradiction, they disqualify themselves from
(03:45):
being a leader and they become just a boss.
You know?
And these are the types of, quote, unquote,leaders that people leave.
This is where highly qualified individuals andtop talent just leave.
They fire their bosses by walking out the doorand saying I've had enough.
And, you know, so the leadership contradictionis saying, you know what?
(04:09):
There's a way to be a leader through connectingauthentically with your employees, paying
attention to who they are, valuing them, seeingthem, hearing them.
And so my goal, after 40-plus years inleadership positions myself and having trained
(04:32):
and developed hundreds of different leaders, isto help leaders that are struggling, to help
new leaders, to help teams who have problemsconnecting because they have a leader who's
negative or who tries to put them against eachother.
You know, all of this old-school stuff thatdoesn't work anymore for truly great employees.
(04:57):
So that's a little bit of, I guess, what thatleadership connection is—or contradiction,
excuse me—and is not being connected to youremployees and trying to lead people not in a
way that they want to be led.
Yes.
Thank you so much for pointing this out.
The difference between leader, manager, I wouldadd, and boss.
(05:21):
Being the boss, being bossy, you have this wordin English.
Yeah.
You are so bossy.
I love that.
No.
I mean, I love what in general, playing withwhat.
And I learned about leadership and thedifference between leaders and managers as
well.
So people always join companies and they leavemanagers or leaders.
(05:41):
You said this.
This, like, voting by feet, we call it
in Germany.
When they go out of the door, they leave thecompany as well, and this is the sign.
So I think it's a topic not many people talkabout.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
I think so.
I think they feel like they're gonna, you know,gonna be in trouble or they're going to you
(06:05):
know, they just can't do anything about itbecause that person's in the senior role.
And I say that's not true at all.
In fact, I just heard the term a couple of daysago, firing your boss, and that is by leaving
the company.
Because if you're talented and you are skilledand you're making the company money and you
were hired in the first place to do a certaintask for a certain amount of money, well, then
(06:32):
they valued you then.
But as time goes on, when you're not treatedwell, you know, you fire your boss by leaving
the company and going to work for a competitoror someone else.
You know, it's the time of the universe whenemployees care about how they're treated at
(06:54):
work.
You know?
I still do come across people, of course, thatI coach who are struggling with, you know, my
boss doesn't treat me well.
I don't think I could get a different job.
I'm just gonna have to suck it up and put upwith it.
And, you know, nobody else would want me ifthey found out I just quit my job.
And I say, you know, garbage to all of thatbecause I think it's not true.
(07:18):
I think if you value yourself, you value whatyou're contributing to the company, and you're
not getting the respect and the connection fromthe person that leads you, then by all means,
you know, walk on and go somewhere else.
Start your own business.
Be in a different leadership role.
(07:38):
There are so many people who just need thestrength and courage to say that and, you know,
at the same time, I am coaching privately a lotof senior leaders who have gotten in trouble
for behaving in such a terrible way and actinglike people don't have choices because they're
(08:02):
finding out that it's not true.
Employees can leave.
And at the end of the day, it's not theemployees so much anymore, but it's the leaders
who are negatively affecting the company.
Because if they're not leading the qualityemployees correctly, they're the ones who are
(08:22):
damaging the company.
So, you know, the ones that realize that,either by themselves or because maybe HR has
gotten involved, and sometimes attorneysbecause employees are suing bosses who are
causing them emotional stress.
And, you know, I get a chance to interject andget in the middle of that and say, okay.
(08:47):
Let's privately talk about some of the behaviorand why being a tough guy, tough girl,
whichever, you know, doesn't matter, man orwoman.
There's a lot of, you know, there's both outthere that are just bosses who are, you know,
so negative and so focused on their own egothat they forget that they need to pay
(09:10):
attention and give their employees time andsupport and see them for the quality employees
they are.
So, you know, times are changing.
I love how on the back of your platform there,it says stories of change, and that's exactly
(09:31):
what's happening in the workforce.
You know?
I know we have five generations of workforcecurrently in the workplace.
And I believe, not only is Gen Z driving this,but also, you know, people, you know, the, you
(09:54):
know, Generation X, you know, the people thatare I'm kind of, like, at the top of Generation
X.
I'm not a baby boomer.
I'm on the X and on the edge of the X.
And, you know, so I grew up with all the oldschool, you know, things of you gotta do this,
you gotta do that.
You know, you have to go out every night afterwork and have cocktails with your bosses so
(10:15):
that you can look like you're showing up.
And I think that's all baloney.
I don't think that none of that's the case.
I think that people are taking back theirlives.
Those, you know, like myself, you know, I justturned 59, and I, you know, I quit my last
corporate job last year and said I'm not doingit anymore.
You know, you can't give me a big enough titleor a big enough salary to make me feel terrible
(10:40):
every day.
Just not gonna happen.
So instead, I started my own business, BULeadership, to help develop others and to help
people in the workplace that know that there'sa better way to go to work every day.
And I can help, you know, either end of that.
So I'm so excited to talk to you today about,you know, just inspiring stories about human
(11:06):
connection.
At the end of the day, it's about that.
People are demanding no less today.
Yes.
That's so true.
It's about connecting.
You talked about connecting, the leader has toconnect with their employees and ensure that
they are able to execute their job correctly.
And what you said about the leaders in at theend, they are responsible for the results,
(11:31):
let's say, and also for the damage.
You use this word.
Mhmm.
This word damage, and it's so important topoint that out and also to know that we always
have the choice.
That's why I named my podcast that way.
And stories of change, normally, it's storiesof change and success because when you are all
(11:51):
open to the change, then it will lead you tosuccess.
And this is what I point out with the storiesof my guests like you.
And congratulations.
First of all, you had your birthday, and youmade a decision to leave the corporate world
and build your own business.
This is very courageous, and for me, it is aleading example.
(12:17):
Oh, well, thank you so much.
And, you know, it wasn't always easy, Caroline.
I think that I, you know, particularly the lastcorporate job I had, I just, you know, I pushed
through, and I felt that there was this trustbetween my boss and I, and it turned out to not
be real.
And, you know, it was a blessing in disguiseto, you know, I thought I was doing all the
(12:43):
right stuff, and I thought that we had a greatconnection.
And, you know, when push came to shove, itwasn't like that.
And, it was painful, and it was hurtful.
And, you know, the connection that I thought wehad just began to disintegrate.
You know?
And one of the ways that I noticed that, and Italk about this in the book that I wrote last
(13:05):
year as well, "The Leadership Contradiction,"is that, you know, having one-on-one time with
your boss, it's not just about the employee'sresponsibility.
Again, putting more of the emphasis on theboss.
You know, we're hired because they know we havea certain amount of skills, but it's not our
job to develop the relationship constantly andkiss up to the boss so that they could like us.
(13:28):
The boss, you know, needs to pay attention tothe employee and schedule a weekly or bimonthly
one-on-one where they can ask you, you know,how's your job?
What do you need?
You know, what we can do to support you?
You know, and the boss should not talk thewhole time.
(13:49):
It should be the employee talking 80% of thetime, the boss talking 20% of the time.
But what happens more than often is not only isthe boss just talking the whole time about
themselves, they cancel the meetings, you know,because they're too important.
They've got busy things to do.
They've got a report or whatever.
(14:10):
When at the end of the day, the most importantasset that they have is the employees that work
for them.
And so they end up not spending time with them,feeling like they're not doing their job, and
they fire these people.
When in reality, it's the boss that should befired.
(14:30):
Not always, okay?
There are some bad employees out there.
So I've been in leadership for more than 40years.
So I know that there are some bad employees outthere.
But, there's also some bad leaders.
You know?
And it's possible that, you know, it's likelythat I didn't always do things right either,
and, actually, I talk about that in my book.
(14:51):
You know?
I made some mistakes.
You know?
That's how we learn.
But I also know that some of the employees thatI was able to spend time with and really give
them attention are those that flourish.
You know?
The same with me.
I remember the bosses that helped me flourishand let me take the inherent skills that I had
(15:15):
and apply it to their company.
That's when people really grow.
Yeah.
So I get really passionate about this sort ofthing.
Thank you so much for sharing this.
Reminds me, like, we've always remembered theleaders that made us feel the happiest or the
most seen and heard, of course.
(15:36):
And lastly, so much, of course.
I have another question for you.
How do you help leaders cultivate a growthmindset while driving accountability and
productivity within their organization?
Oh, that's a wonderful question.
And the answer may not be what most would seem.
(15:57):
The best way to cultivate productivity and toget the best response and results out of your
employees is to see them and hear them and tohave a personal connection with them.
When we just treat our employees as though, youknow, they're a piece of paper that we hired
(16:18):
and they have the job requirements for the job,we're missing the opportunity to treat them as
unique individuals.
You know?
I believe that everybody is uniquely equippedto do their job, but do it in their way.
And I think that the true path to success forleaders is to tap into what are those amazing
(16:45):
skills that the employees have, and care aboutthem as human beings.
Care about, you know, if they have a family.
Care about, you know, do they like to, youknow, do something particular for a vacation
that you could ask about, you know, coming upin a couple of months?
It's just caring about the human.
(17:06):
You know, we are all human beings, and I thinkthis has been, you know, a tough last three or
four years.
I think that is only emphasized that there'smore to our life than our job.
We may spend 40 hours at a job, but we all wantour life back.
(17:26):
We want to be with our families.
We want to vacation.
We want to come home in the afternoon and seeour child or our grandchild's baseball game or
do things that balance our lives.
You know?
I know, you know, work-life balance was a thingfor a while, but I don't think it needs to be a
(17:48):
thing.
I just think we just need to have a life andthat our job is only part of it.
And, so, yeah, I think that a true leaderthat's going to be successful is going to tap
into the unique inherent qualities of each ofthose employees and help support them in being
(18:10):
the best that they could be, inside and outsideof work.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Being authentic as well and doing it their way,you pointed out, we are so valuable, and we are
human beings as well.
And I think the task or, yeah, theresponsibility of a leader is also to create
the space.
You talked about meetings being canceledbecause it was not important for them.
(18:35):
So yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And, you know, being a normal human being as aleader, like, you're not any better because you
have a title and you get paid more money.
You know, I used to do this really fun thing atmany of the jobs that I was a leader in.
I would call it a 2 o'clock walk.
(18:56):
And at 2 o'clock for 10 minutes, I would inviteanybody in a manager or leadership position, on
salary, of course, to just come out for a walkand walk around the building.
And it would be a chance to chitchat aboutsomething that was important at work or talk
(19:17):
about their weekend or just get 10 minutes offresh air and exercise.
But the 2 o'clock walk, I did it in manyplaces, was just to kind of help remind us that
we're all normal human beings.
And getting some fresh air and walking for afew minutes is a good way to restart your day
(19:38):
and show each other that you care about them asa person.
You know, being in an office for eight hours orin a manufacturing plant, just grinding out
that job was not the key to success.
Yeah.
Yes.
I love this idea of restarting during the day.
(20:00):
Yeah.
A deep breath and then have a conversation withthe leader.
Yes.
Thank you so much for sharing.
Of course, I have another question (20:09):
What are the most common leadership challenges you've
seen, and how do you guide leaders inovercoming them for long-term success?
Excellent.
The most common leadership traits are probablyjust displaying their ego too much, being
(20:29):
concerned with their role in the company, and,gosh, you know, also not having the ability to
individually manage their team.
And what I mean by that is first, they thinkit's all about them, and we all know how
(20:53):
that—we don't need to get into that.
It's just being too much focused on them whenit really needs to be focused on the employees,
and then not treating every employee the same.
I've said many times that I don't thinkemployees need to be treated fairly, and it's a
quote that's been all over the world that I'vesaid in my book, but there's more to it.
(21:14):
It's not from regards to a DE&I standpoint orHR or compensation.
It's about that individual human, and and thething and and who they are.
You know, we're all unique.
But it's it's actually, I think the biggestmistake, people make, as an example.
(21:36):
You know, I was I was, in a a large sales team,and and, even as a senior leader, I had a boss.
And, you know, we weren't making our salesgoals, right, as a as a team.
But there were three or four of us who wereexceeding the goals.
Well, instead of the boss or leader going tothe people who were struggling and saying, what
(21:59):
do you need for help?
How can the other team members or how can Ihelp you get your goals?
They brought everybody into the room andreprimanded everybody because everybody was in
trouble.
You know, we weren't making the numbers, and hewas in trouble with his boss.
So there's his ego again.
Right?
And everybody leaves feeling deflated, feelinglike they didn't do their job well enough when
(22:25):
in actuality, several of us were exceeding ourgoals.
And then we're the ones who are gonna feelworse about it because we, you know, we're high
achievers, and we wanna do more.
So I would challenge leaders that, you know, ifyou've got one employee or two employees that
need some special attention, take the time andgive it to them.
You know?
Don't don't treat everybody the same as though,you know, you don't have the courage to pull
(22:51):
one person aside and say, you know, you need todo better and here's how, you know, tell me how
I can help you.
They they just destroy the the the the the comthe camaraderie of the whole team because they
don't know how to help lift up one person.
So that that to me is one of the biggestmistakes, and I've seen it happen time and time
(23:13):
again over the years.
So don't make that mistake.
Yeah.
I would tell leaders.
Which is important.
Yes.
It's about not being selfish, of course, andalso, I think not being arrogant because when
they think they are the leader and the otherones don't count, that's so yes.
(23:35):
So my question, my next question is about yourgoals because you talked about goals already.
What are your next goals?
Do you set goals, and what is one of your nextprojects?
Oh, wonderful.
So, gosh.
Thank you for asking me that.
I don't know that I've ever been asked that.
But, so I just returned last week from Spain.
(23:56):
I went to Madrid and from there to Sarria,Spain, to begin walking the Camino de Santiago.
And so I spent seven days in pouring rain,walking the countryside of northern Spain, and
(24:17):
really thinking about what my next goals are.
And, you know, one of the things that I'mwrapping up that has been a long project, now
coming to fruition, is an oracle deck forleaders.
It's called The Leader Paths, and the cardswill be pictures.
(24:42):
They're pictures that I have taken myself ondifferent trips I've taken around the world,
and different paths, and talking about thedifferent choices we have as leaders and giving
some insight to that.
So I'm currently working on that and hope tohave that out and at least a tease on my
(25:03):
website in the next couple of months, so it canbe finished by the first of the year, if not
sooner.
And so I'm excited because it'll be a bit of acompanion to the book I published last year,
Leadership Contradiction.
And other than that, just continuing to grow mycoaching business and helping to uplift
(25:26):
leaders, either one at a time in privatecoaching or a combination of private coaching
and team coaching, which I found some greatsuccess in and really enjoy doing.
So it's taking the best part of my 40-plusyears in leadership and doing that favorite
part, which is lifting people up and helping todevelop them.
(25:50):
So that's what's coming up.
I absolutely love Oracle decks.
And yeah.
And thank you so much for sharing and doingthis.
When you were talking, I saw this, I saw thepath of leadership and also the places all
around the world you were in without knowing,of course, when I heard about the Camino, El
(26:14):
Camino, the path of the Saint Jacob.
And I have to tell you, my youngest son isnamed Jacob after the, you know, because
there's the younger Jacob and the elder one,and we named him after the, how's the name?
The Jacob.
The the
Actually, I think they refer there's a coupledifferent ones, but I think that the Saint
(26:39):
James Cathedral is where the walk ends nomatter if you're coming from France or from
Portugal or from southeastern Spain, or Irelandor yeah.
So, yeah, it's a pretty phenomenal thing.
(26:59):
I may be doing it again next year, so I'll keepyou posted too.
Taking a team of people who are interested.
Yeah.
Oh, thank you so much for sharing.
I never did this, so I never visited thatplace, but I know Santiago de Compostela.
Now I know.
Yes.
I'm staying, of course, in Catalan.
Catalan.
(27:20):
I don't know how you call it.
Well, and there's so many videos on YouTube.
If you're interested in exploring it, Mari, youcan explore the Camino.
And, I think behind me here, I don't know ifyou can see it, but that's my passport for all
the locations I've visited within the Caminobecause you do get passport stamps along the
(27:42):
way at small little cafes and in these littletowns that you pass through that are hundreds
or thousands of years old.
It's just absolutely beautiful.
So we'll have to have another conversation downthe road on the oracle cards and some more
insight into leadership.
I see it.
Thank you so much.
(28:02):
And there are also books, of course, aboutPaulo Coelho.
You know this about when he went the path.
Yes.
I love this so much.
Thank you for sharing.
And now is time for your last thoughts, finalthoughts to the audience, please.
Well, thank you.
And so, yes, the book "The Pilgrimage" by PauloCoelho is excellent.
(28:26):
I read that as well.
You know, we only have one life, and we are alldifferent and unique people.
And so I would say take today to be curious andbe curious about other people that are in your
lives, whether they're people that you workwith or people that are in your family or
(28:48):
people that are in community groups that you'rewithin, that you really can change another
person's life by giving them just a few minutesof curiosity and connection.
And you don't have to know them to be curiousabout who they are and to be kind and lend them
(29:10):
a word of love and kindness.
So, you know, it's all up to each of usindividually to move forward and try to do
that.
And if you need help doing that, I'm happy tohelp guide you.
I do free 30-minute sessions, and you can findthat on my website.
And I'm welcome to talk to you and see if I canhelp you because I love what I do.
(29:38):
I love supporting others, and I have 40 yearsof leadership to back it up and a few
credentials, but that's you know?
Oh, thank you so much for sharing.
Yes.
I will put it in the show notes, of course,your links.
Please reach out to Traycee.
She's amazing.
She shares her knowledge with us, her wisdom,from all those years, and all you reach out to
(30:04):
me.
I will introduce you.
Of course, we know how to find you, where tofind you, and thank you again for this
interview.
You're welcome.
It's a pleasure to have met you, Caroline, andI know that we will remain friends and looking
forward to this journey together.
We are connected now, and I'll see you in thenext episode.
(30:28):
Thank you for listening to Inspired ChoiceToday.
I'm thrilled to have you on this journey ofgrowth and transformation.
Don't forget to hit follow or subscribe to stayconnected and never miss an episode.
And here's something special (30:41):
Grab your free 20-minute breakthrough session with me.
It's designed to help you kick-start or levelup your business.
Just check out the show notes for more.
Until next time, keep making those inspiredchoices and see you in the next
episode.
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