July 7, 2025 • 28 mins
Caroline Biesalski introduces the concept of boundaries and cultural messaging within relationships, welcoming Lauren Hayes to the episode. Lauren delves into trust-building in ethically non-monogamous relationships, sharing effective communication strategies and techniques for setting healthy boundaries. They discuss challenges like dealing with non-communicative partners and explore the dynamics of ethical non-monogamy. Lauren offers insights from her coaching experience, highlighting practical approaches to conscious relationship choices. She shares details about her upcoming projects and provides information on how listeners can connect with her. Caroline concludes with closing thoughts and a call to action.
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(00:00):
Yeah.
(00:00):
I think boundaries, that's an interesting onefor me because I think I might have been put on
this planet just to learn how to set boundariesfor myself.
You know, I think women in the American cultureand definitely other cultures as well are
there's a lot of cultural messaging that webecome a little bit more people-pleasing.
(00:23):
We put a lot of people's needs before our own.
And this over time can be quite detrimental toour own selves.
Welcome to Inspired Choice Today.
I'm your host, Caroline Biesalski, here tobring you authentic stories, surprising
lessons, and powerful takeaways to fuel yourjourney in business and life.
(00:46):
In each episode, I'll take you from oneinspiring guest to the next, blending their
experiences with my expertise to uncoverpractical strategies you can use right away.
Whether you're starting out or stepping up,stay tuned for insights and actionable tips
that make a difference, and stick around untilthe end for a special freebie just for our
(01:09):
listeners.
Hello, and welcome inspired podcast community.
This is your new episode.
My name is Caroline, and my today's guest isLauren Hayes, and I'm so happy that she said
yes to our interview.
How are you doing today?
I'm doing great.
(01:30):
How are you?
Oh, I'm fantastic.
And I would like to introduce you to theaudience, of course.
You are a relationship coach who supportsethically non-monogamous, I don't know how you
pronounce this, ENM, couples in buildinghealthy trust-filled relationships.
With 19 plus years of marriage and 6 plus yearsin the ENM lifestyle, you combine lived
(01:56):
experience and professional insights to helpcouples navigate this unique dynamic.
Welcome to the inspired podcast.
I'm inspired already, Lauren Hayes.
Hi.
Thank you.
And now I can say it's been 20 years ofmarriage.
I just had my 20th wedding anniversary.
Oh, that means I can say congratulations toyou.
(02:18):
Yes.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Let's celebrate.
And my first question to you is what are thekey trust-building practices for couples
exploring ethically non-monogamousrelationships?
So that's ethically non-monogamous.
It's kind of a mouthful, but we can just say Eand M for short.
(02:41):
So the biggest thing with practicing E and M,and this is the biggest thing for all
relationships, is communication, of course.
But communication is a really broad term.
So I always break that down a little bit interms of some elements within communication,
(03:03):
which is, of course, listening, but bringingcuriosity to the listening, getting into a
space where we're able to listen withoutreacting or, you know, taking everything
personally.
And then there's also the sharing side.
And on the sharing side, it's not just aboutwhat's going on on the surface, but really that
(03:31):
emotional vulnerable piece.
The here's what I want.
Here's what I want to create.
Here's how I feel about what happened.
Here's all the things.
And it can be very scary for all of us tocommunicate all those things because that is
what is emotionally vulnerable.
But that practice of, you know, being theperson who shares and the person who listens in
(03:54):
an open way, that's what ultimately will bringcouples closer together.
Wow.
I love what you shared.
Yes.
It is about communication.
And I thought before you said this word aboutvulnerability and also, like, something like
honesty and transparency, maybe.
(04:14):
Yeah.
So the transparency piece is really when you'relooking inside of yourself.
There, I use kind of a silly example sometimes,but the example of, like, couples fighting
about, you know, the toothpaste cap, putting iton or off.
And so, there's a few pieces of that becauseoftentimes, we'll just say, I hate it when you
do that, and that's it.
(04:37):
So I invite couples to go a step deeper withwhatever issue they're talking about, which is
alright, tell me why you really hate it when Ileave the cap off.
So that's your inquiry, and that's yourinvitation to just listen.
And listen to learn is what I call it and, youknow, not taking it all personally, but just
(04:57):
that curiosity piece.
Then the transparency piece is, you know,you're asking the person not just why you hate
it, but what's underneath that.
Is it because you know, maybe and this is thisis the part that requires some personal
reflection.
So in the moment, sometimes you might be like,I don't really know why that bothers me so
(05:18):
much, but I'll get back to you.
But, also, maybe there is something there foryou.
You know, I grew up in a very chaotichousehold, and having things neat and tidy is
just very important for my system to feel likethings are in control.
So then it's up to the other person to justlisten and not react about that.
(05:38):
And maybe not even share in that moment what itis about for them on the other side.
It's just listening to learn.
Then on the other side, they can ask becauseonce they've been heard, they probably want to
hear your side too.
And then you can share.
Well, you know, I don't like to bemicromanaged.
(06:01):
That was how my household was when I wasgrowing up.
And so when you are always telling me to leaveit on, I just have this little rebellious
moment where I want to, like, leave it off.
So now you understand each other better.
You're not just bickering at each other.
And you can do whatever from that space youwant, but just feeling heard is a very
important step by each.
(06:23):
Then you can decide, as a couple, what are wegoing to do about this?
Maybe we each have our own toothpaste tubes.
Maybe, you know, we leave it on.
Maybe it just doesn't bother us anymore becausenow we understand where the other person is
coming from.
And maybe I just put it back on because I knowthat's something that's actually more
psychologically important than I could haveimagined to my partner.
(06:44):
All these things are possible.
But this kind of formula is what I, you know,is very much what happens in ethical
Because we're talking about much higheremotionally staked conversations.
So that's why I kind of like to use thattoothpaste cap example, because that's actually
(07:05):
already a great place to start.
A lot of people haven't talked about that, anda lot of people have been fighting over that
cap for a lot of years.
And so I use that example, but then you canstart raising the stakes a little bit.
And I know a lot of people will come to me andsay, you know, I am really curious about
ethical non-monogamy, but I feel like I can'tbring this up to my partner.
(07:27):
And that I want to say, well, tell me moreabout that.
Because, you know, if someone's just curious,if they say I'm curious to their partner and
their partner hears, I'm gonna leave you.
This is I think this is often what happens.
There are a lot of misconceptions aboutnon-monogamy, and I think we can get very
(07:50):
emotionally tweaked, just even hearing that ourpartner might be even slightly curious about
it.
So that's where I'm saying you might want tostart off in some things that are a little less
emotionally charged, but that's what you wantto be able to work up to is having these
conversations where you feel
I feel curious about something.
(08:11):
I'm not saying I have to do it.
I'm not saying, you know, this, you know, I'mgonna let this affect our relationship.
I'm just curious.
Are you curious?
And that's that listening to learn piece andthe communication piece.
And the more you can do that with a partner,the safer you both feel and the closer the bond
(08:33):
and the more things emotionally you can dotogether and grow together.
Wow.
What a great answer to start with.
I have so many thoughts now I want to share.
Thank you so much.
So it's about curiosity, about communication aswell, and I loved how you brought up this
example with the toothpaste and also the ideabecause I never thought of it before that
(08:58):
everyone can have their own toothpaste, and Ihave to smile because it's simple.
And then it reminds me like dogs with thebones.
So every dog has its own bone, right, to chewupon or I don't know the word.
But it's so true, and yet then you go deeper,and it's about curiosity.
(09:18):
And that is also so it opens up thecommunication instead of closing or refusing,
rejecting, avoiding, whatsoever.
And you are so right that couples maybe give uptoo early or how is the word?
Yeah.
I don't know if it's about giving up, but Ithink so one thing that is just true for us
(09:42):
humans, when we're blamed in any situation, ournatural reaction is to be defensive or, you
know, put up some kind of wall around that.
So when we're doing that around even simplethings around toothpaste caps, you know, you're
such a slob.
You know, you do this to bother me.
(10:03):
All these things that we might just say offhandand not really think about how they're landing,
that's actually not creating communication.
It's actually creating defensiveness.
So it's always, of course, starting with howlooking at ourselves.
How are we saying these things to our partners?
And, you know, if I know I've been married for20 years, so I understand.
(10:29):
There are a lot of little patterns.
You might have to say to your partner, youknow, I really want to have a this is gonna
seem weird, but I really wanna have aconversation about the toothpaste cap or socks
on the floor or the whatever the thing isbecause we all have the thing that we fight
about, you know, for years.
And say, I would just like to understand thisbetter and go from there.
(10:53):
It's gonna take some time because if for 20years, we've been complaining at each other,
you know, it might be take your partner alittle off guard.
What do you mean you wanna talk about that?
What's it what is there to talk about?
Well, that's where you just start saying, well,I'm just curious what's underneath that for
you.
And it's always about bringing that curiosityand starting in a really, like, healthy place
(11:17):
where we're standing before we have thatconversation.
Well, yes.
That's so true.
Thank you for your advice.
I will pay more attention to the conversationsnow.
And also when people refuse to talk to you,maybe, then what would you say?
I would get curious about that too.
(11:40):
I would say, okay.
I see you don't really wanna talk about this,but maybe not now.
Because maybe there's something in this that'scheering for you.
But at some point, I would like to understandwhy you don't wanna talk about this.
Because that could indicate there's somethingvery deep underneath that.
And maybe this isn't about the toothpaste gap.
Maybe this is something else that you're tryingto talk about.
(12:03):
Sometimes it might be I can't talk about thisright now, or I need to think about that some,
and let's talk about this another day.
But just know just letting your partner knowyou're curious about them.
You're curious what's going on inside, and youdon't have to talk about it right now if you
don't want.
I just want you to know that I'd like to know alittle bit more about you.
(12:24):
And it might, depending on the person, it mighttake a little bit of time to, you know, why are
you curious about that?
But that's kinda where we're trying to go.
And if someone will never open up to you, thenthat might indicate that you have a real
communication breakdown in your relationship,and that might indicate somewhere where you do
(12:46):
wanna get some outside help.
That's great advice.
And, also, what you said about you just askedthe question or you say you are curious about
it, but you don't need an answer right now.
That creates space, of course.
Yeah.
Space for them or for the answer to grow orsomething.
(13:07):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I love that's the word space, and it's kind ofmy first go-to with everything that I get
confused about or a situation that I don't knowwhat to do with.
I try to say, okay.
I'm gonna give this two weeks.
I'm gonna give this two weeks of space.
You know, usually within two weeks and usuallyshorter than that.
(13:29):
But usually, something will sort of—so if Ipost something to my partner and they're not
talking about it, they're like, okay.
You know?
And I don't say I'm giving them two weeks, butinternally to myself.
I'm like, alright.
I'm gonna give this two weeks of space.
And then if I don't hear anything, maybe I'llbring it up again.
But, you know, that time and that space isimportant.
(13:51):
And also for every person to decide how muchtime and space they wanna give it, because it
might be more important to them than two weeks.
Yes.
That's so true.
Most people are impatient when I think of themarshmallow test also.
They want the reward immediately and notwaiting even 15 minutes or so.
(14:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I joke that, you know, in marriage, it'salways the people who need space before they
talk about something and the people who wannasolve everything right now, and then they
always marry each other.
So you have to find that magical balance of, Ido wanna work this out soon and the person who
(14:37):
needs some space.
So that's the challenge in marriage, right, isfinding that balance.
Wow.
That is great.
I never paid attention to that.
I will, yeah, I will make observations nowabout people.
And, of course, I have another question foryou.
How can a couple set healthy boundaries toensure everyone feels valued and respected?
(15:03):
Yeah.
I think boundaries, that's an interesting onefor me because I think I might have been put on
this planet just to learn how to set boundariesfor myself.
You know, I think women in the American cultureand definitely other cultures as well are
there's a lot of cultural messaging that webecome a little bit more people-pleasing.
(15:26):
We put a lot of people's needs before our own.
And this over time can be quite detrimental toour own selves.
And so it's just starting to reckon becausethat creates resentment.
And in some ways, we're creating it forourselves by not listening to our inner voices.
(15:51):
So it does it can take some observation of ourown behaviors.
And oftentimes when we are lashing out at ourpartners or somebody else for something they're
doing to us, that's something to look at.
What have I been doing?
You know, I heard a quote once that I reallylike.
(16:12):
It's like, however people are treating you,that's how you've trained them.
So it's looking back at, like, where have I notbeen setting boundaries?
Where have I not been expressing what I want inthis situation?
And going back to our very first conversationabout communication and vulnerability, it can
(16:34):
feel a little scary to bring those things upbecause we think we're gonna create conflict,
which is another thing we feel like weshouldn't be creating.
That's also incorrect.
Just following our inner voice, just letting beknown what we want.
We don't always get what we want, but for sure,we're not getting it if we don't ask for it.
(16:57):
And then also how we allow other people totreat us.
If we don't tell people that that's not okay,how do they know?
They don't know.
So it's just really taking on that personalresponsibility piece.
And you might have to start small.
I'm always, you know, if you are a lifelongpeople pleaser, you might have to start small.
But it is gonna feel really good, and it willset a course for you to get a little bit more
(17:25):
in touch with your own desires.
Wow.
What a great answer.
Thank you so much.
I feel encouraged now to watch or to take careof my boundaries again to set new standards for
myself.
Thank you so much.
Of course, I have another question.
And it is great.
What advice do you have for individuals curiousabout E and M but unsure how to bring it up
(17:50):
with their partner?
Yeah.
That's a great one.
I get that a lot because, as I've mentionedbefore, a lot of people are very scared to
bring it up to their partner because, you know,while it's okay to be curious about something,
(18:11):
because of the misconceptions about ethicalnon-monogamy, people might jump to here's what
was very natural.
Here's what came up for me when my husbandbrought it up.
Am I not enough?
Are we not happy?
I thought we were happy.
And it is interesting how one person'scuriosity can set off so much in us.
(18:32):
So a couple things that I would say is justsetting it up so your partner knows.
I am so happy with you.
And it's because I'm so happy with you, and Ifeel so stable in our relationship, that I feel
like we can be curious about these otherthings.
I think the other little piece of personalreflection that can be helpful before
(18:53):
approaching your partner is what is appealingabout ethical non-monogamy to you.
So the one thing you wanna make sure is, areyou trying to fix something in your
relationship with that?
If so, then it's probably not about the ethical
Then I would be approaching your partner aboutthis thing that you have noticed that you wanna
(19:14):
fix in your relationship.
Because the worst way to go into ethicalnon-monogamy is trying to fix something in your
own relationship.
Then once you have that conversation with yourpartner and you're both feeling safe and
secure, maybe that's the time to bring upethical non-monogamy.
And also the same piece of internal reflection: What is it that you're attracted to? (19:34):
undefined
Are you attracted to the sexual adventure,fulfilling fantasies?
Are you attracted to having more loving,committed relationships?
Some people have multiple committedrelationships.
(19:54):
There are many models of what ENM can looklike.
So it's just getting clear with your partnerwhat you're even talking about.
Like, are you talking about fulfilling somesexual fantasies?
Are you talking about having a girlfriend?
And you might not know.
And so this is why you wanna talk to yourpartner earlier rather than later.
The main thing I wanna advise people against isgoing and doing a bunch of research on your
(20:19):
own, figuring out what you really wanna do, andthen taking it to your partner.
Because you don't really know what you want todo until you're out there practicing it, and
you want to be doing this with your partner,most likely, at least your partner's
enthusiastic consent.
(20:39):
So the earlier you can bring them into thatconversation, the more you're exploring
something together.
So if you have gone off and done all thisresearch and you come to them with, hey.
I'm really interested in this thing.
I've done all this research.
Here's what I think we could do.
And this is what I think you would like, andthis is what I think I would like.
And what do you think?
(21:00):
That's a very different conversation than, youknow, I really don't know much about it myself.
But it's just, like, a curiosity.
I just wanted to listen to some more podcasts,maybe do some reading about it.
Would you be interested in exploring that withme?
Because whatever, I want this to be somethingthat we would do together.
(21:21):
Those are very different conversations.
I love what you said.
I never thought of it that way.
And it's so true because most of the people arehiding or masking themselves, and then there's
shame or guilt or something like that.
And then they are not communicating, and youpointed out how important it is.
(21:45):
I see it now because it fits all together withwhat you said in the beginning, and I'm so
grateful for that.
So you are helping people.
You are a coach, a CSLC coach there.
And do you have coaches and mentors foryourself?
And who was the best coach you ever had?
Of course.
(22:05):
So I actually have a lot of coach friends.
Even before I was a coach, I had a lot of coachfriends.
So I've, and therapists, I've always been intopersonal growth, development, looking within,
all these things.
When we first got into ethical non-monogamy,and we have been swingers, not polyamorous.
(22:27):
There's a distinction there.
And there was a couple that we met, and theysaid, you know what?
We're not interested in, like, actuallyswinging anymore, but we have been doing it for
a long time.
So we could just meet for dinner and answer allyour questions.
And we learned that having that mentor, someonewho understood the dynamics, someone that we
(22:52):
could turn to in moments where we got reallyconfused or upset, was invaluable.
So that was part of my inspiration for becominga relationship coach in this space, is to
really be that person for people that, youknow, need a little guidance.
And a lot of people do because most of us havenot grown up in a non-monogamous culture, or
(23:19):
with non-monogamous families.
We don't have a model for that.
And so there are a lot of questions andmissteps that can happen along the way.
Yes.
I see.
So it's stepping into the unknown for most ofus, and then there's a coach, someone like you
or you, helping people, of course.
And I would like to know, where can we find youwhen people want to reach out to you after
(23:43):
listening to this episode?
Probably the easiest place is on my website.
So it's swinginglifestylecoach.com.
And I'm also on social media, Facebook andInstagram as Swinging Lifestyle Coach.
So I'm pretty easy to find because I'm kind ofthe same name everywhere.
I also just came out with a book this month.
It's called "For Better or Even Better (24:05):
7 Lessons on Love and Life from a
Non-Monogamous." So that might be a great wayto get a taste for my philosophies on
relationships in general, because the book isreally for monogamous and non-monogamous folks.
It's just lessons that I have learned throughnon-monogamy.
(24:26):
But you can also find that at my website.
That's probably just a great hub in which tokeep track of all my activities, and you can
sign up for my newsletter there.
Wow.
I love it.
Thank you so much.
I will check it out.
Of course, I'll put it in the show notes.
And my last question to you is, do you setgoals for yourself or intentions, and what is
(24:48):
one of your next projects?
I do set goals and projects.
So in 2024, it was to publish my book.
So that I accomplished.
This year, I'm going on what I'm calling asexploration.
So, you know, I'm a very sexually open person,obviously, and very comfortable with sexuality.
(25:14):
And I also enjoy learning in that sphere.
Also, I'm a woman in my fifties, and my body ischanging and sexual pleasure is changing for
me.
And so I'm calling it a sexploration because Ireally wanna, you know, there are so many great
(25:36):
sex coaches and programs out there as well, andI just kinda wanna try a few and see what I can
learn about my body this year.
Wow.
What a great goal.
I love it.
Thank you so much for sharing, and thank youfor our interview as well.
Now it's time for your final thoughts to theaudience, please.
(25:57):
Well, thank you for having me on.
And I guess my final thoughts are just, youknow, I know ethical non-monogamy can be a
little bit controversial.
But what I like people to think about is thatwe didn't grow up because of the cultures that
we've grown up in.
We've all just taken on monogamy as howrelationships work, which is fine.
(26:21):
But what I like about people learning aboutnon-monogamy, even if it's not for them, even
if they turn to their partner and they say,yeah.
That's not for us.
Now you've made a conscious choice intomonogamy, which you may never have done before.
And then the next question that easily followsis do we feel like we're doing monogamy well?
(26:44):
And that can just that conversation can reallyset you upon a new journey within your own
relationship.
No matter what structure that you are, you'reholding, it's all about being in the most
fulfilling relationship that you can.
(27:05):
What a great answer.
Thank you so much.
I'm highly inspired now, and please reach outto, Laura.
What were
Lauren.
Lauren Hayes.
Confused now.
I'm I have so many thoughts.
No.
I see a
a That's fine.
Coach there, and I'm so inspired.
Thank you so much for our interview and yourtime.
(27:27):
Yeah.
Thank you.
And see you in the next episode.
Thank you for listening to Inspired ChoiceToday.
I'm thrilled to have you on this journey ofgrowth and transformation.
Don't forget to hit follow or subscribe to stayconnected and never miss an episode.
And here's something special.
(27:47):
Grab your free 20-minute breakthrough sessionwith me.
It's designed to help you kick-start or levelup your business.
Just check out the show notes for more.
Until next time, keep making those inspiredchoices.
See you in the next episode.
Yeah.
(00:00):
I think boundaries, that's an interesting onefor me because I think I might have been put on
this planet just to learn how to set boundariesfor myself.
You know, I think women in the American cultureand definitely other cultures as well are
there's a lot of cultural messaging that webecome a little bit more people-pleasing.
(00:23):
We put a lot of people's needs before our own.
And this over time can be quite detrimental toour own selves.
Welcome to Inspired Choice Today.
I'm your host, Caroline Biesalski, here tobring you authentic stories, surprising
lessons, and powerful takeaways to fuel yourjourney in business and life.
(00:46):
In each episode, I'll take you from oneinspiring guest to the next, blending their
experiences with my expertise to uncoverpractical strategies you can use right away.
Whether you're starting out or stepping up,stay tuned for insights and actionable tips
that make a difference, and stick around untilthe end for a special freebie just for our
(01:09):
listeners.
Hello, and welcome inspired podcast community.
This is your new episode.
My name is Caroline, and my today's guest isLauren Hayes, and I'm so happy that she said
yes to our interview.
How are you doing today?
I'm doing great.
(01:30):
How are you?
Oh, I'm fantastic.
And I would like to introduce you to theaudience, of course.
You are a relationship coach who supportsethically non-monogamous, I don't know how you
pronounce this, ENM, couples in buildinghealthy trust-filled relationships.
With 19 plus years of marriage and 6 plus yearsin the ENM lifestyle, you combine lived
(01:56):
experience and professional insights to helpcouples navigate this unique dynamic.
Welcome to the inspired podcast.
I'm inspired already, Lauren Hayes.
Hi.
Thank you.
And now I can say it's been 20 years ofmarriage.
I just had my 20th wedding anniversary.
Oh, that means I can say congratulations toyou.
(02:18):
Yes.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Let's celebrate.
And my first question to you is what are thekey trust-building practices for couples
exploring ethically non-monogamousrelationships?
So that's ethically non-monogamous.
It's kind of a mouthful, but we can just say Eand M for short.
(02:41):
So the biggest thing with practicing E and M,and this is the biggest thing for all
relationships, is communication, of course.
But communication is a really broad term.
So I always break that down a little bit interms of some elements within communication,
(03:03):
which is, of course, listening, but bringingcuriosity to the listening, getting into a
space where we're able to listen withoutreacting or, you know, taking everything
personally.
And then there's also the sharing side.
And on the sharing side, it's not just aboutwhat's going on on the surface, but really that
(03:31):
emotional vulnerable piece.
The here's what I want.
Here's what I want to create.
Here's how I feel about what happened.
Here's all the things.
And it can be very scary for all of us tocommunicate all those things because that is
what is emotionally vulnerable.
But that practice of, you know, being theperson who shares and the person who listens in
(03:54):
an open way, that's what ultimately will bringcouples closer together.
Wow.
I love what you shared.
Yes.
It is about communication.
And I thought before you said this word aboutvulnerability and also, like, something like
honesty and transparency, maybe.
(04:14):
Yeah.
So the transparency piece is really when you'relooking inside of yourself.
There, I use kind of a silly example sometimes,but the example of, like, couples fighting
about, you know, the toothpaste cap, putting iton or off.
And so, there's a few pieces of that becauseoftentimes, we'll just say, I hate it when you
do that, and that's it.
(04:37):
So I invite couples to go a step deeper withwhatever issue they're talking about, which is
alright, tell me why you really hate it when Ileave the cap off.
So that's your inquiry, and that's yourinvitation to just listen.
And listen to learn is what I call it and, youknow, not taking it all personally, but just
(04:57):
that curiosity piece.
Then the transparency piece is, you know,you're asking the person not just why you hate
it, but what's underneath that.
Is it because you know, maybe and this is thisis the part that requires some personal
reflection.
So in the moment, sometimes you might be like,I don't really know why that bothers me so
(05:18):
much, but I'll get back to you.
But, also, maybe there is something there foryou.
You know, I grew up in a very chaotichousehold, and having things neat and tidy is
just very important for my system to feel likethings are in control.
So then it's up to the other person to justlisten and not react about that.
(05:38):
And maybe not even share in that moment what itis about for them on the other side.
It's just listening to learn.
Then on the other side, they can ask becauseonce they've been heard, they probably want to
hear your side too.
And then you can share.
Well, you know, I don't like to bemicromanaged.
(06:01):
That was how my household was when I wasgrowing up.
And so when you are always telling me to leaveit on, I just have this little rebellious
moment where I want to, like, leave it off.
So now you understand each other better.
You're not just bickering at each other.
And you can do whatever from that space youwant, but just feeling heard is a very
important step by each.
(06:23):
Then you can decide, as a couple, what are wegoing to do about this?
Maybe we each have our own toothpaste tubes.
Maybe, you know, we leave it on.
Maybe it just doesn't bother us anymore becausenow we understand where the other person is
coming from.
And maybe I just put it back on because I knowthat's something that's actually more
psychologically important than I could haveimagined to my partner.
(06:44):
All these things are possible.
But this kind of formula is what I, you know,is very much what happens in ethical
Because we're talking about much higheremotionally staked conversations.
So that's why I kind of like to use thattoothpaste cap example, because that's actually
(07:05):
already a great place to start.
A lot of people haven't talked about that, anda lot of people have been fighting over that
cap for a lot of years.
And so I use that example, but then you canstart raising the stakes a little bit.
And I know a lot of people will come to me andsay, you know, I am really curious about
ethical non-monogamy, but I feel like I can'tbring this up to my partner.
(07:27):
And that I want to say, well, tell me moreabout that.
Because, you know, if someone's just curious,if they say I'm curious to their partner and
their partner hears, I'm gonna leave you.
This is I think this is often what happens.
There are a lot of misconceptions aboutnon-monogamy, and I think we can get very
(07:50):
emotionally tweaked, just even hearing that ourpartner might be even slightly curious about
it.
So that's where I'm saying you might want tostart off in some things that are a little less
emotionally charged, but that's what you wantto be able to work up to is having these
conversations where you feel
I feel curious about something.
(08:11):
I'm not saying I have to do it.
I'm not saying, you know, this, you know, I'mgonna let this affect our relationship.
I'm just curious.
Are you curious?
And that's that listening to learn piece andthe communication piece.
And the more you can do that with a partner,the safer you both feel and the closer the bond
(08:33):
and the more things emotionally you can dotogether and grow together.
Wow.
What a great answer to start with.
I have so many thoughts now I want to share.
Thank you so much.
So it's about curiosity, about communication aswell, and I loved how you brought up this
example with the toothpaste and also the ideabecause I never thought of it before that
(08:58):
everyone can have their own toothpaste, and Ihave to smile because it's simple.
And then it reminds me like dogs with thebones.
So every dog has its own bone, right, to chewupon or I don't know the word.
But it's so true, and yet then you go deeper,and it's about curiosity.
(09:18):
And that is also so it opens up thecommunication instead of closing or refusing,
rejecting, avoiding, whatsoever.
And you are so right that couples maybe give uptoo early or how is the word?
Yeah.
I don't know if it's about giving up, but Ithink so one thing that is just true for us
(09:42):
humans, when we're blamed in any situation, ournatural reaction is to be defensive or, you
know, put up some kind of wall around that.
So when we're doing that around even simplethings around toothpaste caps, you know, you're
such a slob.
You know, you do this to bother me.
(10:03):
All these things that we might just say offhandand not really think about how they're landing,
that's actually not creating communication.
It's actually creating defensiveness.
So it's always, of course, starting with howlooking at ourselves.
How are we saying these things to our partners?
And, you know, if I know I've been married for20 years, so I understand.
(10:29):
There are a lot of little patterns.
You might have to say to your partner, youknow, I really want to have a this is gonna
seem weird, but I really wanna have aconversation about the toothpaste cap or socks
on the floor or the whatever the thing isbecause we all have the thing that we fight
about, you know, for years.
And say, I would just like to understand thisbetter and go from there.
(10:53):
It's gonna take some time because if for 20years, we've been complaining at each other,
you know, it might be take your partner alittle off guard.
What do you mean you wanna talk about that?
What's it what is there to talk about?
Well, that's where you just start saying, well,I'm just curious what's underneath that for
you.
And it's always about bringing that curiosityand starting in a really, like, healthy place
(11:17):
where we're standing before we have thatconversation.
Well, yes.
That's so true.
Thank you for your advice.
I will pay more attention to the conversationsnow.
And also when people refuse to talk to you,maybe, then what would you say?
I would get curious about that too.
(11:40):
I would say, okay.
I see you don't really wanna talk about this,but maybe not now.
Because maybe there's something in this that'scheering for you.
But at some point, I would like to understandwhy you don't wanna talk about this.
Because that could indicate there's somethingvery deep underneath that.
And maybe this isn't about the toothpaste gap.
Maybe this is something else that you're tryingto talk about.
(12:03):
Sometimes it might be I can't talk about thisright now, or I need to think about that some,
and let's talk about this another day.
But just know just letting your partner knowyou're curious about them.
You're curious what's going on inside, and youdon't have to talk about it right now if you
don't want.
I just want you to know that I'd like to know alittle bit more about you.
(12:24):
And it might, depending on the person, it mighttake a little bit of time to, you know, why are
you curious about that?
But that's kinda where we're trying to go.
And if someone will never open up to you, thenthat might indicate that you have a real
communication breakdown in your relationship,and that might indicate somewhere where you do
(12:46):
wanna get some outside help.
That's great advice.
And, also, what you said about you just askedthe question or you say you are curious about
it, but you don't need an answer right now.
That creates space, of course.
Yeah.
Space for them or for the answer to grow orsomething.
(13:07):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I love that's the word space, and it's kind ofmy first go-to with everything that I get
confused about or a situation that I don't knowwhat to do with.
I try to say, okay.
I'm gonna give this two weeks.
I'm gonna give this two weeks of space.
You know, usually within two weeks and usuallyshorter than that.
(13:29):
But usually, something will sort of—so if Ipost something to my partner and they're not
talking about it, they're like, okay.
You know?
And I don't say I'm giving them two weeks, butinternally to myself.
I'm like, alright.
I'm gonna give this two weeks of space.
And then if I don't hear anything, maybe I'llbring it up again.
But, you know, that time and that space isimportant.
(13:51):
And also for every person to decide how muchtime and space they wanna give it, because it
might be more important to them than two weeks.
Yes.
That's so true.
Most people are impatient when I think of themarshmallow test also.
They want the reward immediately and notwaiting even 15 minutes or so.
(14:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I joke that, you know, in marriage, it'salways the people who need space before they
talk about something and the people who wannasolve everything right now, and then they
always marry each other.
So you have to find that magical balance of, Ido wanna work this out soon and the person who
(14:37):
needs some space.
So that's the challenge in marriage, right, isfinding that balance.
Wow.
That is great.
I never paid attention to that.
I will, yeah, I will make observations nowabout people.
And, of course, I have another question foryou.
How can a couple set healthy boundaries toensure everyone feels valued and respected?
(15:03):
Yeah.
I think boundaries, that's an interesting onefor me because I think I might have been put on
this planet just to learn how to set boundariesfor myself.
You know, I think women in the American cultureand definitely other cultures as well are
there's a lot of cultural messaging that webecome a little bit more people-pleasing.
(15:26):
We put a lot of people's needs before our own.
And this over time can be quite detrimental toour own selves.
And so it's just starting to reckon becausethat creates resentment.
And in some ways, we're creating it forourselves by not listening to our inner voices.
(15:51):
So it does it can take some observation of ourown behaviors.
And oftentimes when we are lashing out at ourpartners or somebody else for something they're
doing to us, that's something to look at.
What have I been doing?
You know, I heard a quote once that I reallylike.
(16:12):
It's like, however people are treating you,that's how you've trained them.
So it's looking back at, like, where have I notbeen setting boundaries?
Where have I not been expressing what I want inthis situation?
And going back to our very first conversationabout communication and vulnerability, it can
(16:34):
feel a little scary to bring those things upbecause we think we're gonna create conflict,
which is another thing we feel like weshouldn't be creating.
That's also incorrect.
Just following our inner voice, just letting beknown what we want.
We don't always get what we want, but for sure,we're not getting it if we don't ask for it.
(16:57):
And then also how we allow other people totreat us.
If we don't tell people that that's not okay,how do they know?
They don't know.
So it's just really taking on that personalresponsibility piece.
And you might have to start small.
I'm always, you know, if you are a lifelongpeople pleaser, you might have to start small.
But it is gonna feel really good, and it willset a course for you to get a little bit more
(17:25):
in touch with your own desires.
Wow.
What a great answer.
Thank you so much.
I feel encouraged now to watch or to take careof my boundaries again to set new standards for
myself.
Thank you so much.
Of course, I have another question.
And it is great.
What advice do you have for individuals curiousabout E and M but unsure how to bring it up
(17:50):
with their partner?
Yeah.
That's a great one.
I get that a lot because, as I've mentionedbefore, a lot of people are very scared to
bring it up to their partner because, you know,while it's okay to be curious about something,
(18:11):
because of the misconceptions about ethicalnon-monogamy, people might jump to here's what
was very natural.
Here's what came up for me when my husbandbrought it up.
Am I not enough?
Are we not happy?
I thought we were happy.
And it is interesting how one person'scuriosity can set off so much in us.
(18:32):
So a couple things that I would say is justsetting it up so your partner knows.
I am so happy with you.
And it's because I'm so happy with you, and Ifeel so stable in our relationship, that I feel
like we can be curious about these otherthings.
I think the other little piece of personalreflection that can be helpful before
(18:53):
approaching your partner is what is appealingabout ethical non-monogamy to you.
So the one thing you wanna make sure is, areyou trying to fix something in your
relationship with that?
If so, then it's probably not about the ethical
Then I would be approaching your partner aboutthis thing that you have noticed that you wanna
(19:14):
fix in your relationship.
Because the worst way to go into ethicalnon-monogamy is trying to fix something in your
own relationship.
Then once you have that conversation with yourpartner and you're both feeling safe and
secure, maybe that's the time to bring upethical non-monogamy.
And also the same piece of internal reflection: What is it that you're attracted to? (19:34):
undefined
Are you attracted to the sexual adventure,fulfilling fantasies?
Are you attracted to having more loving,committed relationships?
Some people have multiple committedrelationships.
(19:54):
There are many models of what ENM can looklike.
So it's just getting clear with your partnerwhat you're even talking about.
Like, are you talking about fulfilling somesexual fantasies?
Are you talking about having a girlfriend?
And you might not know.
And so this is why you wanna talk to yourpartner earlier rather than later.
The main thing I wanna advise people against isgoing and doing a bunch of research on your
(20:19):
own, figuring out what you really wanna do, andthen taking it to your partner.
Because you don't really know what you want todo until you're out there practicing it, and
you want to be doing this with your partner,most likely, at least your partner's
enthusiastic consent.
(20:39):
So the earlier you can bring them into thatconversation, the more you're exploring
something together.
So if you have gone off and done all thisresearch and you come to them with, hey.
I'm really interested in this thing.
I've done all this research.
Here's what I think we could do.
And this is what I think you would like, andthis is what I think I would like.
And what do you think?
(21:00):
That's a very different conversation than, youknow, I really don't know much about it myself.
But it's just, like, a curiosity.
I just wanted to listen to some more podcasts,maybe do some reading about it.
Would you be interested in exploring that withme?
Because whatever, I want this to be somethingthat we would do together.
(21:21):
Those are very different conversations.
I love what you said.
I never thought of it that way.
And it's so true because most of the people arehiding or masking themselves, and then there's
shame or guilt or something like that.
And then they are not communicating, and youpointed out how important it is.
(21:45):
I see it now because it fits all together withwhat you said in the beginning, and I'm so
grateful for that.
So you are helping people.
You are a coach, a CSLC coach there.
And do you have coaches and mentors foryourself?
And who was the best coach you ever had?
Of course.
(22:05):
So I actually have a lot of coach friends.
Even before I was a coach, I had a lot of coachfriends.
So I've, and therapists, I've always been intopersonal growth, development, looking within,
all these things.
When we first got into ethical non-monogamy,and we have been swingers, not polyamorous.
(22:27):
There's a distinction there.
And there was a couple that we met, and theysaid, you know what?
We're not interested in, like, actuallyswinging anymore, but we have been doing it for
a long time.
So we could just meet for dinner and answer allyour questions.
And we learned that having that mentor, someonewho understood the dynamics, someone that we
(22:52):
could turn to in moments where we got reallyconfused or upset, was invaluable.
So that was part of my inspiration for becominga relationship coach in this space, is to
really be that person for people that, youknow, need a little guidance.
And a lot of people do because most of us havenot grown up in a non-monogamous culture, or
(23:19):
with non-monogamous families.
We don't have a model for that.
And so there are a lot of questions andmissteps that can happen along the way.
Yes.
I see.
So it's stepping into the unknown for most ofus, and then there's a coach, someone like you
or you, helping people, of course.
And I would like to know, where can we find youwhen people want to reach out to you after
(23:43):
listening to this episode?
Probably the easiest place is on my website.
So it's swinginglifestylecoach.com.
And I'm also on social media, Facebook andInstagram as Swinging Lifestyle Coach.
So I'm pretty easy to find because I'm kind ofthe same name everywhere.
I also just came out with a book this month.
It's called "For Better or Even Better (24:05):
7 Lessons on Love and Life from a
Non-Monogamous." So that might be a great wayto get a taste for my philosophies on
relationships in general, because the book isreally for monogamous and non-monogamous folks.
It's just lessons that I have learned throughnon-monogamy.
(24:26):
But you can also find that at my website.
That's probably just a great hub in which tokeep track of all my activities, and you can
sign up for my newsletter there.
Wow.
I love it.
Thank you so much.
I will check it out.
Of course, I'll put it in the show notes.
And my last question to you is, do you setgoals for yourself or intentions, and what is
(24:48):
one of your next projects?
I do set goals and projects.
So in 2024, it was to publish my book.
So that I accomplished.
This year, I'm going on what I'm calling asexploration.
So, you know, I'm a very sexually open person,obviously, and very comfortable with sexuality.
(25:14):
And I also enjoy learning in that sphere.
Also, I'm a woman in my fifties, and my body ischanging and sexual pleasure is changing for
me.
And so I'm calling it a sexploration because Ireally wanna, you know, there are so many great
(25:36):
sex coaches and programs out there as well, andI just kinda wanna try a few and see what I can
learn about my body this year.
Wow.
What a great goal.
I love it.
Thank you so much for sharing, and thank youfor our interview as well.
Now it's time for your final thoughts to theaudience, please.
(25:57):
Well, thank you for having me on.
And I guess my final thoughts are just, youknow, I know ethical non-monogamy can be a
little bit controversial.
But what I like people to think about is thatwe didn't grow up because of the cultures that
we've grown up in.
We've all just taken on monogamy as howrelationships work, which is fine.
(26:21):
But what I like about people learning aboutnon-monogamy, even if it's not for them, even
if they turn to their partner and they say,yeah.
That's not for us.
Now you've made a conscious choice intomonogamy, which you may never have done before.
And then the next question that easily followsis do we feel like we're doing monogamy well?
(26:44):
And that can just that conversation can reallyset you upon a new journey within your own
relationship.
No matter what structure that you are, you'reholding, it's all about being in the most
fulfilling relationship that you can.
(27:05):
What a great answer.
Thank you so much.
I'm highly inspired now, and please reach outto, Laura.
What were
Lauren.
Lauren Hayes.
Confused now.
I'm I have so many thoughts.
No.
I see a
a That's fine.
Coach there, and I'm so inspired.
Thank you so much for our interview and yourtime.
(27:27):
Yeah.
Thank you.
And see you in the next episode.
Thank you for listening to Inspired ChoiceToday.
I'm thrilled to have you on this journey ofgrowth and transformation.
Don't forget to hit follow or subscribe to stayconnected and never miss an episode.
And here's something special.
(27:47):
Grab your free 20-minute breakthrough sessionwith me.
It's designed to help you kick-start or levelup your business.
Just check out the show notes for more.
Until next time, keep making those inspiredchoices.
See you in the next episode.
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