Change The Way You Disc Golf Forever By Using The Ultimate Human Skill: With Joel Turner

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome to the Intentional Disc Golfer Podcast,
the show dedicated to helpingyou elevate your disc golf game
with purpose and strategy.
Whether you're stepping up tothe tee for the first time or
you're a seasoned pro chasingthat perfect round, this podcast
is your guide to playingsmarter, training better and
building confidence on thecourse.

(00:38):
We are, brandon and JennySaprinsky, passionate disc
golfers, here to exploreeverything from technique,
course management, mental focusand gear selection.
Grab your favorite disc, settlein and let's take your game to

(00:59):
the next level.
Intentionally.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
And thank you for tuning in to this episode of the
Intentional Disc Golfer Podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:10):
I am one of your hosts, my name is Brandon and
I'm Jenny, and I'm waiting foryou to talk like a pirate again,
yar.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
First of all, we'd like to thank the fans, because
the fans are the reason we cando this, they make this all
happen and they're the reasonthat we keep going.
So thank you out there to allof our fans, and if you would
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You can find us on all thesocial medias we got Facebook,

(01:40):
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(02:01):
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(02:22):
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And if we have any bloopers orouttakes we will pin them to the

(02:43):
end of the episode Right afterthe outro music.
So please stay tuned for thatand maybe you'll get a good
laugh.
And we'd like to give a quickshout out To our sponsors.

Speaker 4 (02:53):
First of all, we'd like to thank Treasures of the
Forest For sponsoring us thisyear and Salty Unicorns Disc,
golf Apparel and Tech Disc andTecharel and Tech Disc and Tech
Disc and Tech Disc.
And Don't you throw.
Want to do a shout out there toMindIQcom.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
Ooh, a little foreshadow as to who our extra
special guest is.

Speaker 4 (03:22):
You need like a thesaurus man.
I need another word.
I said I would give need athesaurus man.
I need another word.
I said I would give you athesaurus.
I got a Small vocabulary.
Small vocabulary, yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
All right, and how about that community calendar,
Jenny?

Speaker 4 (03:36):
take it away.
Hold on, I'm trying to findsome synonyms for what you're
saying.
Oh, there we go.
How about we go with off thehook?

Speaker 3 (03:43):
We have some Off the Hook we have an Off the Hook
guest for you tonight.

Speaker 4 (03:47):
Out of this world.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Sick, sick, dude.

Speaker 4 (03:51):
No cap man.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (03:53):
Skibbity oh God, don't, Don't, no.
No, but our guest tonight isdefinitely the Riz, wah, wah All
right, it's definitely the Riz.
Wah, wah, all right, All right,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
blah.
Looking at April, so March 30this going to be the end of

(04:13):
Washington Team Golf LeagueChampionship down there at
Stilly.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
Go Grit City Looking forward.

Speaker 4 (04:20):
to it Grit City Woo Woo.
To it grit city whoo.
We will be at disking at thedepot presented by the west
sound disc golf association on asaturday, april 5th, over there
at nad park.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
no, yes yes yes, that one's at nad park that's the
deep naval ammunitions depot.
Nad disking at the depot.

Speaker 4 (04:42):
Haven't had dinner okay and then, uh, we, uh.
I will be doing the springswing put on by the evergreen
women's series up at north bend,one of our favorite places to
play.
That's on april 13th.
And then brandon and I will bedoing the top dog challenge
sponsored by Innova at Delphi onApril 19th and 20th.

(05:05):
And then we have Sirens of theSprings, part of the Evergreen
Women's Series.
That is on May 3rd.
It is going to be a blast.
We have some great sponsors.
I'm working on some extras forthe ladies as well.
And then we have a brotherevent, tritons of the Timbers,

(05:28):
on Sunday, may 4th, for the men.
That is to help fundraise andsupport the women's series.
So if you are interested insupporting growing women's disc
golf, come sign up for Tritonsof the Timbers.
And then, a couple weekendsafter that, is the Disc Golf Pro
Tour Cascade Challenge overthere at Shelton Washington.

(05:49):
I am so excited for it thisyear.
I cannot wait.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
Yeah.
So, ladies, come out and playthe Sirens of the Springs.
Jenny puts on a heck of atournament, she's TDing for it
and I'm going to be camping outat the uh tournament central
just to make sure things don'twalk off.
And then the next day, guys,support your ladies.
I know you're gonna be outthere caddying.
I know you're gonna be in towndriving the car.

(06:16):
I know you want to get yourchance to play and support your
wives, support your girlfriends,support your significant other
others, by playing tritons ofthe Timbers and making that
donation to the EvergreenWomen's Series to keep the
women's disc golf growing andexpanding here in Washington.

Speaker 4 (06:36):
And I want to say a little bit about that Tritons of
the Timbers.
This is our first you knowevent that we've put on for the
men in the area.
I'd love for you to come outand see you know kind of how we
treat our players.
We want to make sure it's funfor you.
We have some fun additionalgames that we're hoping to play

(06:56):
and different ways that we canaward you for doing great things
and for possibly landing in thehazards.
So you know you'll need to comeout and see what we're talking
about.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
That's right, sirens of the springs.

Speaker 4 (07:11):
No.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
And tritons of the timbers.

Speaker 4 (07:14):
No.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
Powered by TechDisc.
Know your throw.

Speaker 4 (07:20):
No, where's my no button?
No button, what is that?

Speaker 3 (07:26):
Oh, hold on, All right, there you go.
Angry squirrel, angry squirrel.
Okay, folks, so this episode.
We've been waiting a long timefor this one.
This one is extra amazing.
Off the hook, yo, off the hook,skibbity Rizzler.

Speaker 4 (07:46):
Oh, shut, up no.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
I hate that so much.

Speaker 4 (07:52):
Okay.
So this episode is one that Ididn't think we would ever be
able to do.
And Brandon goes up and asksthis guy if he'd be on our
podcast, and I'm all like geekedout about it.
And then he actually says yes.
It's like, oh my gosh, we havethis guy if he'd be on our
podcast, and I'm all like geekedout about it.
And then he actually says yes.
It's like, oh my gosh, we havethis guy on our podcast.
I am totally fangirling.
Brandon's going to befangirling later too.

(08:13):
Just be prepared.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
Absolutely so.
After a word from our sponsors,be prepared to have your mind
blown and your game changedforever.

Speaker 4 (08:31):
Oh yeah, I pushed the right button.
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(09:12):
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(10:19):
This is.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
Scott Stokely.
Thank you for listening to theIntentional Disc Golfer podcast.
On this episode of theIntentional Disc Golfer how can
a trained sniper slash bowhunter?
Relate to disc golf.
Well, this man has found a way,sir.

(10:46):
Why don't you go ahead andintroduce yourself?
Hey?

Speaker 1 (10:50):
folks, I'm Joel Turner with Shot IQ and we have
figured some things out as faras movements and the science of
the mind and how to think inhigh stress events.
It goes with the science of it,really goes with any movements,
and this is going to be ajourney for me as well, because

(11:10):
I don't know that much aboutdisc golf.
But we can take our mental gameequation and we can plug it
into any movement problem.
So you folks are going to begiving me the problems on what
you face in a disc golftournament or just in the
movement itself, and we'll beable to hash out.
So we understand the mentalgame of the solution and, uh,

(11:33):
it's going to be exciting I amso excited to talk to you.

Speaker 4 (11:38):
I am totally like fangirling over here.
I love your episode from uh thejo.

Speaker 1 (11:45):
Rogan.

Speaker 4 (11:46):
I have shared it with a lot of my disc all friends
saying, hey, you need to listento this.
And then Brandon said we weregoing to get to talk to you, so
I am so excited.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, yeah, it's fun and I wish, I wish that I had
the words when I was on theRogan podcast.
But as soon as Joe Rogan saysyou know, joel, this is
applicable to everything in life, I'm like man, joe, I love what
you're saying right now, but Idon't have the words to explain
it.
So it was.
it was only after the Roganpodcast when all these people

(12:19):
from all different walks of lifestart asking me questions like
hey, how can you, how can weapply what you do at Shot IQ to
our sport and this sport?
I mean, I had professionalbowlers, professional baseball
players, pga golfers,professional drag racers.
I had people with anxietyproblems, problems.

(12:51):
I had the French Olympicdecathlon coach call me it was
nuts, but it forced me to reallybuckle down and think about how
we actually formulated thesciences and how we packaged the
sciences of neurolinguisticprogramming and visual
proprioception and open andclosed loop control systems, and
how did we take that and putthat into shooting?
And then, how do we take it toall these other sports?

(13:13):
So I had to dig deeper and getlike I had to zoom out a little
bit and go okay.
Well, I had somebody ask mewhat is the mental mental game?
Can you define the mental game?
I'm like well, that's a hell ofa question.

Speaker 4 (13:29):
Right so it took.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
It took me a little bit, but we figured out.
Now we have the definition ofthe mental game and we know, you
know, we know open and closedloop control systems, and we'll
explain all those to your, toyou and your listeners.
But um, and now we know whatthe ultimate skill of the human
being is.
Wouldn't it be fantastic toknow what that is?
Well, we've got it.
We're going to bring that toyou today too.

(13:52):
Oh my gosh, it's going to be afun one.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Oh my Whoa, I'm fangirling every year.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
It's going to get deep tonight.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
Great.
So, joel, I have to say, likemy experience was I was just,
you know, a year or two ago Iwas just listening to the Rogan
podcast, just on autoplay, andthe episode with you on it came
up and instantly I thought tomyself I'm like this is disc
golf, this is it.
The explosive movements, theanxiety, the, the we call them

(14:27):
the yips, where you go to do anaction and you hesitate a little
bit and it ends up throwing offthings.
I mean, this is it.
And I'm like never thought in amillion years you'd come on our
podcast.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yeah, and here you are yeah, so let's, uh's, uh.
You know, in talking about allthat stuff, you know when that,
when that person that I wasworking with asked me that
question, can you define themental game?
And I will ask let's.
We'll get into that in just asecond, but I want to ask you
guys a question okay, absolutelyand this is the basis for

(15:05):
everything really.
Now, if you could give me theone life skill that has gotten
you through everything in yourlife, what would that one skill
be?

Speaker 3 (15:19):
Ooh, you can go first , I, for me, I would have to say
it would be resilience okay,resilience, that's a, that's a
common one.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
Jenny, what do you got?

Speaker 4 (15:33):
I'm I'm gonna go with .
Uh, the word that my dad alwayscalled me, aside from stubborn,
is tenacity.
He always called me verytenacious.
I'm going to go with tenacity.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
So we've got tenacity .
And the other one waspersistence.
Is that right?
Resilience, resilience, okayyeah, toughness.
So if I can ask you how to dothat, how do you do that?
How do you become tenacious,how do you become resilient?
How do you do that?

Speaker 3 (16:05):
tenacious.
How do you become resilient?
How do you do that?
Well, for me, resilience is.
Sometimes I just have to tellmyself that it's like I have a
hundred percent success ratingat everything, because I'm still
here, I'm still breathing, andif I, if I didn't have some
level of success, even if it'sjust incredibly minuscule, I
didn't have some level ofsuccess, even if it's just
incredibly minuscule, I wouldn'tbe here today.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
But how do you teach somebody that?
Remember, this is the skill.
I've asked you If you couldgive me one life skill that has
gotten you through everything,and you say resilience or you
say tenacity.
If I can ask you how?
It's not the skill, yourresilience or your tenacity is
the result of the skill.
You just gave me the answerwithout knowing that you did it.

(16:52):
But here it is.
The one skill that has gotten usall through everything in our
lives.
It gets us out of bed in themorning, it gets us through the
car wreck, it gets us throughthe pain, it gets us through the
argument.
It gets us literally througheverything is the ability to get
loud in your head with theright words at the right moment.
That's how you do it.

(17:14):
The ability to get loud in yourhead with the right words at
the right moment.
That's how you are tenacious.
That's how you generateresiliency.
That's how you get mentaltoughness.
That's how you are tenacious.
That's how you generateresiliency.
That's how you get mentaltoughness.
That's how you get discipline.
None of it happens without youtalking in your head, and you
are successful when you have theright words for the right

(17:37):
moments.
You're unsuccessful when you'renot loud enough, or you don't
have the right words.

Speaker 3 (17:43):
Or you don't have the right words, or you don't know
the right moments and I love thefact that you say you're not
loud enough.
It has to be all thosecomponents together the right
words, the right moments andthen the right volume right,
it's the ability to get loud.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
So knowing that, knowing that is the ultimate
skill of the human being, it'sthe one thing that gets us all
through everything.
You start to approach your discgolf, or whatever your sport is
, in a different way.
You are not out there trying towhat like what do you call the
goal in disc golf?

(18:18):
the basket, the basket, okayyeah you're no longer trying to
hit the basket, you are usingyour throw.
Is that what you call it?
Yep, you are.
You are using your throw topractice getting loud.
You're using your sport, youractivity, to practice the

(18:41):
ultimate skill.
You see what I mean.
It's a different approach and totake the right approach to that
, you have to know the mentalgame equation, because what
happens?
Let's work through a yip realquick in disc golf.
Okay, okay, so describe it tome, because it's probably

(19:04):
similar to the yips andeverything else in disc golf.
Okay, okay, so describe it tome, because it's probably
similar to the yips andeverything else.
So describe a yip to me indetail, if you will.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
Well, one that's common for me is I'll be 10 feet
away from the basket and, forexample, that should be 100%
when you're putting Yep.
It should be 100%, 10 feet away, and not so much when you're in
tournament, because it's thehigh stress, high pressure
situation, and one thing thathappens to me very commonly is

(19:37):
my thumb will get stuck on thetop plate of the putter and pull
the disc over to the right.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
Okay, so let's dive into a real quick concept here.
We have to understand thatthoughts aren't thinking.
Thoughts are what you hear,thinking is what you say, and we
know that the ultimate skill isgetting loud with the right
words at the right moments.
Thoughts have no instruction,thoughts have no strategy,

(20:08):
thoughts cannot solve theproblem.
So when you are there puttingand you're having the thought of
oh man, I should, this shouldbe easy.
That has no instruction, thathas no strategy.
So, as soon as the volume ofyour thoughts which you have no
control over, by the way, youhave no control of your thoughts

(20:29):
, but you always have control ofyour thinking, which is your
voice, and it's got to be theloudest one in the room.
So there you are and you arehaving thoughts of man, this
should be easy.
Man, the last time I did this,my frickin' thumb hung up on the
putter.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, it's the.
Don't screw this up.
That's the thought that I have.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
Don't screw this up is a thought that is not
thinking.
If you know the problem is thatyou get your thumb hung up on
the putter, how are you going tofix that?

Speaker 3 (21:11):
my mind is blown.
I know I've got all kinds ofreally vague and weird questions
, but it's to spark thinking,right because my traditional
answer to that would just bemore repetition, more repetition
, get it, get it down to musclememory.
It's to the point where youcan't screw it up so understand

(21:33):
this muscles don't have memory.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
Muscles don't have little brains inside them, right
?
It's all based on motorprograms.
Okay, so you're to what'scalled myelinize a motor program
.
Myelin is a fatty tissue thatlines the walls of the neural
pathways, and the one with themost myelin is the primary.
Okay, so that's what you'retrying to do when you're trying

(21:58):
to gain this muscle memorythrough repetition.
Is you're trying to myelinize amotor program?
Okay?

Speaker 3 (22:04):
so does that so tissue thicken, or how does that
tissue?

Speaker 1 (22:08):
react.
It does the, the primary onethat you, that you started with
your primary movement, is theone that is myelinized first.
That's why it's so hard tobreak it if you screw it up the
first time so these thingsactually are a physical
adaptation, not just mental yeah, for sure.

(22:30):
That's how neural pathways work.
So we know so so far.
We know a couple things.
We know that the ultimate skillof the human being is the
ability to get loud in your headwith the right words at the
right moments.
We know that thoughts are notthinking.
That statement is actually frombuddhism.
Who?
knew right, one of my buddiesthat told me that that statement

(22:52):
his brother's a buddhist monk.
Yeah, they also came up withthe saying it is what it is.
Yeah, that's from buddhism aswell.
Okay, so we know that the whatthe ultimate skill is.
We know that the what theultimate skill is.
We know that thoughts aren'tthinking.
Now, what I'm going to ask youis what's the mental game of
disc golf?

Speaker 3 (23:12):
I think, the mental game of disc golf.
I mean there's so many things.
I mean there's shot selection,there's uh, you know, do I go
aggressive here?
Do I not go aggressive here?
How am I playing against thecard?
How am I playing against thecard?
How am I playing against thecourse?
What are my percentages doingtoday?
I mean there's so many, youknow, technical facets to it.

(23:34):
But then the psychological sideof it is, you know, just try to
relax as much Do all thesereally complicated things, but
be as relaxed and loose aspossible.
And.

Speaker 4 (23:47):
I would answer in a different way, because I've been
really focusing on, uh, the,the mental aspect and kind of
how disc golf somehow this game,this sport, this community
tends to heal people.
And where I'm at in my journeywith this game is when I go to

(24:08):
putt like my yip I.
I very vividly remember, uh, wewere playing at the course
behind our house and I went overto this like he's at a 10 foot
putt and I'm like no confidence.
I'm like no, we're gonna tailorswift that we're gonna shake it
off, so shake it off a littlebit.
And then I try to raise mythinking to this higher

(24:30):
vibrational frequency in my head.
I go to this place, lift myselfup and I try to clear it, and
then I just go through myroutine of up the pole, down the
pole in the basket and putt,and so for me, me, it's all of
those things that brandonmentioned, but being in a

(24:51):
comfort zone of saying, you know, I've got this, so it's the
positive yeah, affirmation.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
So how do you?
How do you get yourself to thisplace?

Speaker 4 (25:03):
so I've had to practice getting to that place,
like what Brandon was saying, tomentally figure out okay, how
am I getting to a point offrustration?
It's easier to say when I'mcoming off of it than how I'm
getting back onto being in thatcalm space.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
So would you say that Go ahead.
I was going to One thing.

Speaker 4 (25:25):
I've been, so would you say that Go ahead, go ahead.
I was going to say one thingI've been trying to also help
Brandon with is like, okay, sofind a positive and try and get
three positives and get back onthe track of building through
positives.
So, even if it was I hit a badshot and I hit a tree, it's like
, oh, but the tree kicked meinto the middle of the through
positive.
So, uh, even if it was, I hit abad shot and I hit a tree, it's
like, oh, but the tree kickedme into the middle of the

(25:47):
fairway.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
So that's a positive and trying to get back up there,
a disc golf game can unravel onyou very quickly, very quickly.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
It's the same thing as a golf game, same thing as
any game really.
You know sounds like disc golfand golf and archery are very,
very similar, just in yoursports they don't have the
explosion of the bow going off.
But the question was what isthe mental game of disc golf?
And both of you gave me verygood answers.

(26:19):
But if you had somebody thatthat said they are working on
their mental game, it's thiskind of fluffy, vague thing that
nobody really knows what it is.
You can bring in all kinds ofaspects, but if you don't know
like if you're trying to play agame where you don't know who
the opponent is, you don't knowthe rules of the game, you don't

(26:40):
know when the game starts, youdon't know who the opponent is,
you don't know the rules of thegame, you don't know when the
game starts, you don't knowwhere the game's being played,
how can you possibly win thatgame?

Speaker 4 (26:52):
I feel like I'm playing with my niece.
It's like honestly right andyou're absolutely right.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
I mean, we, we gave you some answers, but they're
loose descriptions, they're notright anything so here is.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Let me give you the concrete.
This is the mental game of life, and then you're gonna apply it
to your disc golf, okay?
So the mental game is definedas understanding where, when and
how to direct your consciousmind into a specific task at a

(27:27):
specific moment.
That is the definition of themental game.
It is understanding where, whenand how to direct your
conscious mind into a specifictask at a specific moment.
Holy cow, that's the mentalgame of everything.

(27:51):
So now you treat that as anequation and you get a problem,
like it might be your yip, itmight be a throw down a fairway,
who knows what.
It is right, there's a mentalgame for all of these things,
okay, so, knowing what thedefinition of the mental game is
, let's start plugging in.
Let's take a problem.
Let's take your.
Let's take your putt, your 10foot putt, where your thumb is

(28:16):
on the top of the drags, on thetop of the putter, whatever that
creates a problem.
Okay, that's exactly right.
And understand that a problemis nothing more than an increase
in the volume of thoughts.
All right.
So in your putt, where do youwant your conscious mind?

Speaker 3 (28:44):
I don't, I want to be completely.
Well, what I've learned is totry to be completely neutral and
just kind of not like, justkind of like I don't know how do
I describe it.
It's very neutral.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
If you don't know how to do that, though it's very
neutral.
If you don't know how to dothat, though it's a mystery.
Everybody's playing with amystery involved in their sport.
I mean, I've trained thehighest level.
I mean I went and trained thePhiladelphia Phillies pitching
team and none of those guys cantell me how they do what they do
.
Jenny, you mentioned confidencebefore.

(29:22):
What's the definition ofconfidence?
Confidence is understanding howyou do what you do.
Jenny, you mentioned confidencebefore.
What's the definition ofconfidence?
Confidence is understanding howyou do what you do.

Speaker 4 (29:30):
That's a good definition of it.
Yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
It's understanding.
You walk up on a 10 foot puttand you know what you're going
to say and when you're going tosay it.
Remember the mental gameequation understanding where,
when and how to direct yourconscious mind into a specific
task at a specific moment.
But to understand the where andthe when, you have to

(29:56):
understand open and closed loopcontrol systems.
Okay.
Let's dive into that realquickly, because it'll make
things way more sensible.
Open loop is for a movementthat is fluid, fast, efficient,
like throwing your Frisbee is.

(30:19):
Do you call it a Frisbee?
Do you call it a disc?
What are we calling it?
It's a disc.
Okay, yeah, frisbee is kind ofa c, do we call?

Speaker 3 (30:23):
them.
It's a disc.
Okay, yeah, frisbee is kind ofa cuss word in the disc golf
world.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, okay, I figured I'm like I don't know if I
should say that or what.
No no you're good.
Okay, so the throwing motion ofthrowing a disc is open.
Loop.
It's too fast to gain feedbackin the middle of it.
Okay, loop, you're not.

(30:48):
It's too fast to gain feedbackin the middle of it.
Okay, yeah, so that is in thescientific world.
It's your brain sends a motorprogram, a simple motor program,
to the effector.
In the case of throwing a disc,it's your arm, or maybe it's
your back, or whatever, yourshoulder, whatever right, it is
a movement that's too fast foryou to gain feedback within it,
and it's supposed to be that way.
You've practiced for years sothat it is automatic.

(31:10):
Okay Now, closed loop is formovements that are slow enough
you can gain feedback within it,like pressing a trigger on a
rifle Slow enough you could stopit anywhere within it.
Very minute, discrete movements.
But there is a.

(31:33):
Would you agree with this?
Now, this is just me thinkingabout me throwing a disk.
Is there a portion of yourthrowing motion that is slow
enough that you can gainfeedback within it?
Is there some type of wind-upto it?

Speaker 4 (31:55):
Yeah, there is a Some people do a walk-up where they
will walk or run as part oftheir motion before they throw.
Other people just do astandstill and throw from a
standstill point.
But what the connection I'mmaking right now is that

(32:19):
something Brandon keeps tellingme is if something's off when
I'm on the tee pad, I need tostop myself, and I have a really
hard time stopping myself atthat point, unlike if I'm
putting and I notice a problem,I can stop there, and I'm
presuming that's the differencebetween the open loop and the
closed loop yeah, you don't needas much power.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
But think about throwing a pitch in baseball.
Okay, okay, it's got a windupto it.
So there's some precursor whereyou are having to put tensions
in the right directions.
Oh yeah, right, yeah, so you're.
I mean, do you call it apre-throw, is it a?

Speaker 3 (33:00):
windup.
What is it?
What do you call it?
It's a walk-up.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
It's a walk-up or a walk up, a walk or an x step
yeah, okay, so during thatportion of your throw, that is
the only place that problems canbe fixed.
People try to fix problems inthe middle of the open loop
motor program, the throw itself.

(33:24):
Like they put speech towardssomething in that and that's
what screws up.
It alters the motor program solike if you are, if you're
putting and you put speechtoward your thumb, it will alter
the putt motor program in itsentirety and it will screw it up

(33:47):
.

Speaker 4 (33:48):
You can't see Brandon's face, but his jaw just
dropped.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
My jaw's been on the floor the whole time.
Are you kidding?
This is mind blowing.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
There are portions of your movement that you have to
put your conscious mind into,and there are portions of your
throw that you have to put yourconscious mind into and there
are portions of your throw thatyou have to keep your conscious
mind out of.
So now you're going to start todissect your throw in its
entirety.
Athletes are scared to death ofthinking because it's them

(34:22):
putting their conscious mind inthe wrong place at the wrong
time.
Remember the mental game.
Equation is understanding where, when and how to direct your
conscious mind into a specifictask at a specific moment.
So let's say, on your walk up,where do you want your conscious
mind?
And this is going to bedifferent for every thrower so.

(34:43):
So, brandon, with you, where doyou want your conscious mind?
Just on your walk-up or in yourX step?

Speaker 3 (34:49):
Well I'm, when I'm going through my walk-up, I try
to make all my decisionsbeforehand before I start into
the motion and then, um, thereis a portion of it where you can
stop, like say if, uh, like sayif you hear a loud yell or
something, and you stop and walkoff the tee.
But it's pretty much once yougo into the backswing, just like

(35:16):
a ball golfer.
Once you go into the backswing,that is that open loop where
you're moving so fast.
There's no stopping it.

Speaker 1 (35:25):
Okay, that is that open loop where you're moving so
fast there's no stopping it.
Okay, so there is a portion ofyour walk-up that you can gain
feedback within it.
So if you're having a problemwith your throw, you have to fix
it in that stage.
So are you placing your weightin a different portion of your
foot?
Are you gripping the discdifferently?
Whatever right, you can fixproblems in that portion, but

(35:48):
once you send it, you have tokeep your conscious mind out of
it.
Okay, so let's say that you'rehaving a problem.
Let's just go back to your putt.
It's 10 feet.
You don't need a lot of power,so you can do a lot of this
motion as closed loop,everything except for the actual
throw motion.
Okay, and you know that theproblem is in your thumb.

(36:12):
So do you have to keep yourthumb off the top of the disc?
Do you have to relax your thumbon the top of the disc?
How do you fix that minuteproblem?

Speaker 3 (36:22):
Oh my gosh, I've tried a lot of things.
I've tried changing my thumbposition as opposed to moving it
away from the center disc andcloser to the rim.
I've tried making sure that Ihave chalk on my thumb and
making sure it's dry.
I've even tried to make surethat I have proper flick and

(36:44):
proper spin on the bottom of thedisc.
Okay, yeah, it's getting yourthumb to come off the disc at
just the right point that itgoes forward.
Mm-hmm, yeah, I've tried a lotof different things.
Okay, sometimes it works,sometimes it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Would it help to flex your thumb at all?
Flex it so it's not putting somuch pressure on the top of the
putter.

Speaker 3 (37:11):
Oh, you mean like stiffen it?
Yes, you know what.
It's worth a try, okay.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
So let's just for sake of argument, argument right
, because I'm not a disc golferyeah, jenny's are my new these
are minute movement problemsthat you have to figure out.
But now you know the mental game.
So let's say that when youstiffen your thumb, it actually
releases it correctly.

(37:43):
Okay, let's just, for the sakeof argument, say that stiffening
your thumb is a solution forthis problem that you're having
in your yip and your putt.
Okay, so the mental game isthis when do you need your
conscious mind?
You need it in stiffening yourthumb.
When do you need it there?
Probably before you start youryour backswing.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
Okay, so before the motion which is before the
motion.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Right, you can't do it during the motion because
you'll alter the motion see whatI'm saying oh, yeah, so where
do you need it?
You need it in stiffening yourthumb.
When do you need it there?
When you do your backswing?
How do you need it there whenyou do your backswing?
How do you put it there?
How do you put your consciousmind into a specific task at a

(38:31):
specific moment?
This could also be asked how doyou concentrate?
How do you?

Speaker 3 (38:39):
do it.
I just try to block outeverything else and just focus
on that.
How do you do?

Speaker 4 (38:43):
that.
So I'm going to jump in and sayit's like my routine.
I could see that you, uh, youhave to consciously decide how
you're gonna grip it and be like, uh, flex the thumb or whatever
it is to get that in your headand then, after you've done it,
then you can go ahead and doyour putt.

(39:04):
But how did you get it in yourhead and then, after you've done
it, then you can go ahead anddo your putt, but how did you
get it in your?

Speaker 3 (39:08):
head.
I guess what I'm thinking islike, you know, I'm standing
there setting up my putt in mystance, you know, picking my
link, and it's like I'll hear abird and I'll say I'll
acknowledge the bird and thenI'll be like, okay, the bird's
not a problem, I can deal withthat, right.
And then I can feel the breezeor whatever over my back and

(39:32):
I'll be like, okay, well,there's a little bit of wind, I
acknowledge it.
And then, okay, I can work withthat.
And I get to this level ofacceptance with as many things
around me and try to just quieteverything and make those
decisions, to not engage withthose things.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
So you have distractions, right, as we all
do.
How do you override thedistraction?
How do you put your consciousmind in a specific task at a
specific moment?
What is the how of the mentalgame equation?
The how of the mental gameequation is always speech.
How do you get it in your mind?

(40:16):
Through words.
It's the only route.
So speech has always been thevehicle that moves thoughts from
the limbic system of the brainto the prefrontal cortex, where
thinking can occur.
The vehicle is always speech.
The ultimate skill of the humanbeing is getting loud with the
right words at the right moments, right.

Speaker 3 (40:40):
So you're moving that primal instinct into the
executive reasoning portion.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Yes, moving, you're moving that primal instinct into
the executive reasoning portionand, yes, the way that you do
that is through speech.
So the mental game for yourputt if we know that stiffening
your thumb is the solution, okay, so where do I need it in
stiffening the thumb?
When do I need it In stiffeningthe thumb?
When do I need it there, beforethe backswing?
How do I put it there?
Speech what do you say?
Say stiffen my thumb, or now,or whatever you want to do.

(41:12):
That equals stiffening thethumb.
That puts your conscious mindin a specific task at a specific
moment and it keeps yourconscious mind out of the
movement itself.
So let's say that you're nothaving a problem with a
particular throw, like you'regoing down the fairway or

(41:35):
whatever it may be.
If it's not a problem, where doyou want your conscious mind
when you're not experiencing aproblem?

Speaker 3 (41:48):
When I'm in that, when I'm, you know, doing
something really well, I kind ofam like yeah, let's do this,
Like I'm having good percentageswith this today, Like I'm
feeling good about it and I tryto focus in on that and use that
more, because I know it'sworking for me.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
So if you know that you're, you know whatever it is
working for you that day.
What is the thing that gets thedisc in the basket eventually?
What's the governing body thatgets it there?
That's part of your body.
What is it?

Speaker 4 (42:26):
I want to say thought , but my brain, thought and
intention to make it happen.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
It's your eyes.
Your eyes are what gauge howmuch power is put to the disc,
where the disc is released.
All those things are donesubconsciously and it's all
guided by your vision.
So if you're having a throwthat you've got to put a bunch
of power into, or whatever, youneed to keep your conscious mind

(42:55):
out of the throwing movementand the only place it can help
you is your vision.
So right before you go intoyour back, your back, throw your
back, swing, say see it or youknow whatever.
If it's a pine cone way downthe fairway, say pine cone,

(43:18):
whatever, because that will putyour conscious mind in vision
and that keeps it out of themovement.
See what I mean.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
I'm going through this in my head as if I know the
course, I know the location, Iknow the shot.
And then you said pine cone andI'm like I can see that pine
cone in the middle of thefairway.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yeah Right, you putting your conscious mind into
vision keeps it out of themovement.
Because the movement is drivenby an open-loop control system,
it needs to remain automatic.
If you put consciousness intoit, it will screw up the motor
program, it will alter it, andthen you'll hang up.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
You'll have a yip that you didn't even know was
coming so one of the things thata lot of uh, professional disc
golfers and you know you canlook on youtube like how to make
your throws better, whateverwhen they're talking about
putting one of the things thatthey tell people to do is focus
on one of the links and focus onlike that link specifically a

(44:29):
chain link a chain link on thethe basket it's does.
Is that kind of what you'realso?

Speaker 1 (44:34):
getting at.
Okay, that's exactly what I'msaying that puts your conscious
mind in vision and keeps it outof so if, like let's say, you're
having the yip and you knowthat stiffening your thumb fixes
that problem.
So right before you start yourbackswing, you're going to say
stiffen, link, right, you justplayed two very specific mental

(45:03):
games.
One you put your conscious mindin stiffening your thumb when,
right before the backswing howSpeech?
Then you switched it, put yourconscious mind into the link
when, before you threw it howSpeech.
You see how simple it is.
There's only three componentsto the mental game equation when

(45:26):
, when and how.

Speaker 4 (45:27):
So one of the guys I was watching again teaching you
know how to make things better.
This one guy he uses a cadenceand his cadence for putting or
for everything is apple pie, andso he kind of he kind of
marches to this apple pie, hethinks apple pie every time he

(45:48):
throws.
And I somehow took that ideawith um, uh, someone else was
teaching.
Like you slide your disc acrossthe table to get it into the
basket.
So not just the repetition of,say, throwing, not moving, doing
100 putts, but actually goingthrough your whole routine where

(46:10):
you say so, for me it's up thepole and I lift my arm up down
the pole and then into thebasket where I throw.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
And do you say that to yourself when you're putting?

Speaker 4 (46:20):
I do and I realize that when I'm not doing well, I
haven't been saying that, right,I do, and I realize that when
I'm not doing well, I haven'tbeen saying that right and then.
So with my drives, the lastround we one of the last rounds
we played, the guys were likeyou have a, you do the same
thing every time.
So I was thinking about well,what do I do?
I pick up my disc, I twist itthree times.

(46:42):
I set my angle on my hand, andthen I, uh, do my walk up yep,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
So the skill is in your speech.
It's not in your throw, becausethe speech is how you're
setting everything up mentally.
But when you, when you run intoa problem, that's when you have
to change the mental game.
That's when you have to putyour conscious mind into maybe

(47:12):
your thumb, maybe your foot,maybe your shoulder, maybe your
elbow, I don't know right.
That's why I go into thesearenas of experts and I'm like
tell me the problems you'rehaving.
And it's very simple.
You just plug it into themental game equation.
But here's the thing.
Remember, when I asked you whatthe ultimate skill of the human

(47:34):
being was, you told me tenacityand resilience.
But that's not the skill.
So your skill is not in makingthe putt.
Your skill is in what you sayand when you say it, because
that's how you're directing yourconscious mind into a specific
task at a specific moment.

(47:55):
When people talk about the bestgolfers in the world, they all
have a mantra that they say allhave a mantra that they say they
talk themselves through theentire up to the backswing.
But at the peak of the backswing, that's when they put their
conscious mind into a dimple onthe ball, a link on the chain of

(48:20):
the basket, whatever it is,you're putting your conscious
mind into vision, because it'sputting it in the only place
that can help you and it'skeeping it out of the movement.
You see what I mean.
Yeah, you guys are doing thisstuff, but because you don't
know how you were doing it, itwas a mystery.
Yeah, and jenny, you said it.
When I didn't say that stuff,it broke down.

(48:41):
Yeah, the skill is in yourspeech and I've done this in the
highest of stressful situations.
I mean, I've done it in hostagerescues, I've done it in some
crazy, crazy things, right?
So it's not.
You know, in archery, your jobis not to shoot the shot.

(49:02):
It it's not to hit the X, it'snot to shoot the shot.
Your job is to move the triggerslow enough you could stop it.
The only way you can do that,especially when there's an
explosion at the end of themovement, is to talk yourself
through it with the right wordsat the right moments, with the
right words at the right moments, but you have to know how to

(49:24):
get loud.
Like when I was training thePhillies, there was a pitcher
that was like what do you meanget loud?
In my head I'm like well, Ilook at the coaches.
I said why is this pitcherasking me this question?
Because you, as coaches, haveobviously never given this
player an opportunity to getreps in getting loud.

(49:45):
Like when's the last time theypitched a bullpen with 10 other
pitchers standing around themound yelling at them?
I mean, it's got to be loud outthere on the mound in a
baseball game, but if you'venever had reps in getting louder
than your thoughts, that's whenthings fall apart.

Speaker 4 (50:07):
Yeah Right, yeah Right yeah.
That makes me think of we wouldhave our kids play with us.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
When they were younger, right, yeah, okay, not
all they want to do is fight,yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
So let me ask you this when was the last time that
you did a throw or a putt orwhatever movement you were doing
out there and you spoke outloud while you did it?

Speaker 4 (50:54):
I don't like doing that and I don't like talking
out loud.
Uh, most of the time, althoughBrandon tends to talk through
verbally things he's doing allthe time, yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
I, but I don't know if he does it for disc golf.

Speaker 4 (51:04):
No, I think I, I think it's just other things.
But you're right.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
You know you don't do that in disc golf yeah, I, if
you, if you don't do it then youdon't know what you say,
because I'm sure you'veinstructed people in disc golf
and you've maybe walked themthrough a movement or whatever,
and they're like did you, youknow, if you're, if you're into

(51:29):
this, you know, talking yourselfthrough things and you tell
them what to say and when to sayit and like, did you say that?
Like, oh yeah, I did.
Like no, I didn't because, youjust screwed it up again, right?
So you didn't do the thing thatwe're talking about.
So commentary skill building isnow known to me, anyways, as

(51:52):
the fastest way for you tofigure out what you say and when
you say it.
Because, brandon, if you'redoing a throw and you speak out
loud when you do it, and, jenny,now that you know about open
and closed loop control systems,you know when Brandon should be
saying something, and you nowknow what words he's saying and

(52:17):
when he is saying them.
So, therefore, you can nowmanipulate his speech pattern so
that he's putting his consciousmind in the right place at the
right time.
Yeah, so we do that a lot withour shooters now, commentary
shooting Once you get the fulldraw on your bow, you're not
allowed to stop talking.
Now, mind you, this isdifferent than disc golf,

(52:40):
because in archery it's closedloop, you're not doing anything
fast, so in archery it's easyfor them to talk all the way
through.
It be like okay, now I'mdrawing back and aiming, got it.
Now I'm going to address thetrigger.
Okay, I'm going to wrap myfinger around, nice and easy,
got it.
Okay.

(53:01):
Now I'm going to increase mypresence by saying here I go,
here I go.
And now I'm going to talkmyself through the pressure.
Increase on the trigger.
Okay, nice and easy.
A little bit, that feels good.
Yep, Stay in that Squeeze BoomUntil it breaks as a surprise,
right?

(53:28):
So there's got to be somemoments on your before your
backswing where you're talkingout loud even if there's nobody
there to listen, because yourconversation must be born
external before it can ever betaken inside.
Because if it starts inside andstays inside, you're not
managing the volume of yourthoughts, something you have no

(53:48):
control over.
So you have to manage thevolume of your thinking, right?
Which is your voice got to bethe loudest one in the room.
So commentary skill building.
Just talking out loud will tellyou where you're putting your
conscious mind and when you'reputting it conscious mind and
when you are putting it there.
And if you need help gettingloud, I've got a drill for that

(54:10):
too.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
Yeah, yell up and yell at the woods.
Usually.
Usually, my commentary is whythe heck did that happen?

Speaker 1 (54:20):
right, which is after the fact, which means that it's
a mystery.
Yeah, yeah, right.
Don't let anything in yourthrow be a mystery.
There's, no, there's no reasonfor it.
I mean, we're out there to todo good and have fun, all these
things but you will not gainconfidence until you understand
how you do what you do, like youshould know how you going to

(54:43):
throw every disc from now tillyou the end of your days.
It can't be a mystery to you.
Yeah, because right now youhave good days and bad days,
because you don't know how youdo what you do.

Speaker 3 (54:59):
You're absolutely right.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Yeah, when you understand how you do what you
do, there's no reason to havegood days and bad days.
You just have one controlledthrow every time yep yeah it
sounds like he's been.

Speaker 3 (55:15):
He's been playing the game for years.

Speaker 4 (55:17):
He's a pro already you know, I was thinking about
it on the way home and I waslike, you know, I'd like to take
him out and go disc golfing andI'm like, but I'm kind of
nervous that he'd be reallyreally good right off the bat
and I'd just be like you'venever done this before, like
yeah.
Over half the game is mental.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
Oh for sure, way over half oh yeah, there's only so
much technique that you canlearn.
And then at that point it'semotional regulation and
decision making.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
Right, and those are all driven by what you say.

Speaker 3 (55:57):
Yep, so you mentioned something in there about
increasing your presence.
Can you go into that a littlebit?

Speaker 1 (56:03):
about increasing your presence.
Can you go into that a littlebit?
So anytime you make a decision,a conscious decision, what
decisions do?
Is they increase presence.
So like, let's say, that yougot your little toesies hanging
over the edge of the cliff andyou need to jump off the cliff.
Okay, so there you are andyou're like oh my gosh, I don't
know if that water's deep enough.

(56:24):
That's a thought.
Thoughts have no strategy.
Thoughts have no instruction.
Thoughts cannot solve theproblem.
So as long as the thoughts arelouder than your thinking, you
will not jump.
Okay, so very common verbiagefor people to increase their
presence so that the movementthat gets them off the cliff is

(56:46):
the only thing in their world.
What do they do?
They say here I go.
Nobody jumps off a cliffwithout saying something in
their head because it's aconscious override of the
central nervous system.
That only happens with speech.
Speech is the only overridethat we have available to us.
It's the essence of willpower.
It's in what you say, right?

(57:09):
So that's where the decisionhere I go is used for a movement
that causes impact to the body.
So we use here I go.
So you can certainly do thatbefore you do your backswing
here I go, and that will makeyour like.

(57:29):
If you have to fix something,it will make that fix the only
thing in your world.
Or if you're just, you're justgoing to continue with your
throw, it makes your throw theonly thing in your world.
It readies your mind for thefor the motor program to be sent
down the neural pathway.
So that's how you increase yourpresence.

Speaker 3 (57:53):
So and then you also said at the beginning of the
episode you work with peoplethat have like anxiety,
performance anxiety and thingslike that.
How do you address that?

Speaker 1 (58:05):
so different mental game.
So I'll ask you the question ifsomebody is experiencing an
anxiety attack or like, let'ssay that they're shaking like
crazy or they've got a shot ofadrenaline, or maybe this is the
part of a lifetime, right, ohyeah, and now all that is, it's
a problem.

(58:25):
So it increases the volume ofthoughts, and anxiety is where
thoughts have drasticallyoverridden your thinking.
They're drastically louder thanyour voice.
So what's the first mental gameof any cerebral problem?
Where do you want theirconscious mind, when do you need

(58:50):
it there and how do you put itthere?

Speaker 3 (58:55):
Speech.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
Well, to know the answer to this, you have to know
about heart rates.
And so when you're having thisanxiety attack or you know this
shot of adrenaline, your heartrate raises significantly.
And if it goes over about 160for most humans, once it goes
over 160, you go into lizardbrain.

(59:17):
Well, you, stiffening yourthumb so you don't have a yip on
the putter does not live inyour lizard brain, it only deals
with fight or flight.
So we've got to stay out of thelizard brain so that we can
think, because thinking doesn'toccur in the lizard brain, it's

(59:39):
just survival mode.
So the first mental game wheredo I need your conscious mind In
breathing?
Because breathing is the way tolower the heart rate.
Okay, so, and specifically, Iwanted in the, the physiological
sigh, which is in through thenose to the top extra through
the nose and out through themouth.

(01:00:00):
That's what we call thephysiological sigh.
That's from and Huberman, aphenomenal neuroscientist, a
very smart guy.
I've had the opportunity totrain with him a little bit and
the physiological side.
It's just, I need yourconscious mind in breathing.
So you do this repetitively, asmany times you need to, to

(01:00:21):
lower your heart rate.
Once your heart rate is down.
Then, and only then, do youhave access to the prefrontal
cortex, where thinking can occur.
Now you can remember.
Oh yeah, I'm supposed to saystiff at this point.
I'm supposed to then put it onthe link on the basket chain,
right, because that stuffdoesn't live in your lizard

(01:00:43):
brain.
So, getting your heart ratedown.
If you're experiencing anxietyattacks, somebody has lost their
perspective, so they need to bebrought back to reality.
And what is happening to themright now?
They're not actually dying, butthey will never realize that
until they get their heart ratedown.

(01:01:06):
How do you get the heart ratedown?
Through breathing, right.
So now you're going to start tosee things in a different way.
You're going to go oh, what'sthe mental game for this?
What's the mental game for that?
Right, you're, you're involvedin a car wreck and you're
bleeding and you need to put atourniquet on, and your thoughts
are oh, my God, I'm going todie.

(01:01:28):
Those are thoughts.
They don't get the tourniqueton your leg.
So you first got to put it inbreathing so that you can think.
Then you can remember to talkyourself through how to put a
tourniquet on your leg.
So this is how it works.
It's not my opinion.
This has taken me a lifetime tofigure out.

(01:01:50):
That speech is the key to justabout everything, but we package
it in.
You know, a long time ago itwas called neurolinguistic
programming, but it was.
Neurolinguistic.
Program was kind of debunked inthe scientific world because it
was only used for likeself-help and addiction and all
this other stuff, but theydidn't go deep enough into.

(01:02:11):
This is the ultimate skill ofthe human being.
This is how you think.
This is how you concentrate.
I'm sure you've told people toconcentrate on things before,
maybe your kids or whatever.
Right it's like just do it.
Yeah, but if you've never taughtthem how to do it, you can't
expect them to do it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:31):
Yeah.
Right yeah.
Yeah, whoa, no, I'm alreadyDeep man.
This is getting deep brother.
Yeah, yeah, preach it, keepgoing.
I love it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
I'm thinking about my game all differently, like well
, and I'm going to a differentplace, as I'm thinking of
because I'm a secondaryadministrator at a uh tribal
school in pualap and, uh, likesome of the kids that I was
working with today, like I'm,I'm thinking about different

(01:03:10):
ways that I could, you know,work with them and get them to
go through you know whatever itis that they're going through,
and and ways to help theteachers, and and things like
that.
So Right.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
So when you you know you've you've got a kid that's
having a problem in somethingand you want to extract, you
want to know what they'rethinking.

Speaker 4 (01:03:34):
What do you ask them?
I usually, well, I go through awhole process of, you know,
asking them what happened, whatit was that they wanted, what
were they trying to do at thetime, and try and get them to go

(01:03:55):
through a whole reflectionprocess?

Speaker 1 (01:03:57):
Do you ever?

Speaker 4 (01:03:58):
ask them what they're thinking.
Sometimes, Part of it is whatwere you thinking at the time?

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Right?
And here's the problem withthat is that most people don't
know the difference betweenthoughts and thinking.
So, if you ask somebody whatthey're thinking, they will give
you their thoughts.

Speaker 4 (01:04:25):
If you want to know where somebody placed their
conscious mind what they weretruly thinking at the time.
You have to ask them what wereyou saying?
That's a really good way to putit.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Yeah Right, because most people don't know the
difference between thoughts, andespecially young people.
They don't know the differencebetween thoughts and thinking.
So, asking some of that, whatwere you saying in your head?
And if they don't know whatthey were saying, then you know
for a fact that their thoughtswere louder than their thinking

(01:04:53):
and they're reacting on thoughtsalone.
So just educating somebody onthe difference between thoughts
and thinking is a huge step inthe right direction for them to
learn how to control theiremotions and their mental
control of themselves.
Yeah.

(01:05:16):
Something that we had to do as acop.
Every single day I dealt withpeople that their thoughts were
loud and they had no controlover their thoughts.
I get that right, but we alwayshave control of our own voice.
Get that right, but they.
We always have control of ourown voice.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
And again, the ultimate skill is getting loud
with the right words at theright moments and I love your
analogy about being the loudestperson in your in your room.
Like that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:44):
That's so well said and so there's a drill that we
have in the Mind IQ course.
I don't usually let things outthat are in the course, but this
is pretty important because alot of people like that pitcher
with the Phillies.
He didn't know how to get loud.
So if somebody doesn't know howto get loud, here's a quick

(01:06:07):
drill for you.
Take your phone out and you putit on stopwatch Like let's do
it.
Let's do this drill.
Are you with me?

Speaker 4 (01:06:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, grab your phone.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
Get your phone out and put it on stopwatch.
You're going to need two phones.
You've got two people.

Speaker 3 (01:06:22):
Oh, gosh Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
Each of you will need a phone.

Speaker 4 (01:06:26):
Let's see if it can work on my phone now use this
one, and I have a stopwatch onmy watch you can use a watch,
you can use whatever I'll usethat, just so you have a time.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
Just, you have a timer on there, okay, all right,
got it yep okay, so we're on.
We got on stopwatch, so here'sthe drill.
It's called the empty lung.
Hold you, you're going tobreathe in all the way.
Then you breathe out all theway.
Empty your lungs 100% and thenstart holding your breath on

(01:06:58):
empty lungs.
When you start holding yourbreath, you hit the timer.
When you have to rebreathe, youhit the timer again and tell me
how many seconds you got oh mygosh, all right, yep, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:07:12):
You tell us what?

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
you're gonna.
Okay.
So we're gonna breathe in allthe way and then breathe out all
the way and then hit your timerand you tell me when you have
to rebreathe.
Hit your timer again when youhave to re-breathe.

Speaker 3 (01:07:28):
Now you should be holding your breath and
hopefully you're not like NavySEALs or something that's going
to take like five minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
I'd try not to laugh.
Are you still holding yourbreath?
No, I breathed.
Yeah, okay, got.
What do you got for times?

Speaker 4 (01:07:55):
I got 16 seconds yeah , 16 like 16 what do you got?

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
16 seconds, okay, so as soon as your thoughts got
louder than your thinking, youtook another breath, you started
out talking you're okay andthen the thoughts got louder and
louder and louder.
Right, you start to feel strainin your body and all these

(01:08:21):
things.
Strain in the body is nothingmore than an increase in the
volume of thoughts.
So when you, when your thoughtsgot louder than you're thinking
, that's when you took anotherbreath.
Okay, Mm-hmm.
Now we're doing it again, andyou have to get at least 10 more
seconds.

Speaker 3 (01:08:37):
You got to get at least 10.
Okay, oh gosh.

Speaker 1 (01:08:39):
You have to get at least 10 more seconds, so go
back to zeros.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
Got this.
Hold on your phone code.
Hold on One, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:08:50):
Don't tell us your phone code for crying out loud.
It's got a one in it Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
All right, there we go.
Okay, we good.

Speaker 4 (01:08:58):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:08:58):
We're good.

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
Are we ready?
Okay, breathe in all the way,out all the way.
Hit those timers.
When you start holding thatbreath, you've got to get at
least 10 more seconds.
Like your life depends on it.
Oh, it's getting tough.

(01:09:22):
Come on, people.

Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
I lost.
Okay, I got like five moreseconds.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
I got like five more seconds.
How many more seconds did youget, Brandon?

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
I was at 16, now I'm at 23,.
So I don't know.
Seven yeah, seven, Okay, Jenny.
How many more did you get?

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
I was at 16 and now I'm at 23, so I don't know.
7?
Yeah, 7.
Okay, Jenny, how many more didyou?

Speaker 4 (01:09:53):
get, I lost 2.
You lost 2?
I lost 2.
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
Okay.
So if you lost 2, that meansthat you don't know how to get
loud.

Speaker 4 (01:10:05):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
You gotta keep doing this until you get 10 more,
because I know you canphysically do 26 seconds.
Oh yeah, I guarantee you youcan physically do 26 seconds.
However, you guys don't have alot of reps in getting loud.
Yeah, you're right.

(01:10:28):
Right, this is a way to giveyourself reps and getting loud.

Speaker 3 (01:10:33):
You don't have, like, a hidden camera or anything
like in the house, do you like?
Me.
No, just like yeah, are youwatching this?
Like it, it's.
You just know all this stuff,just intuitively.

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
It's, it's well, it's not.
I mean, it's just fromexperience.
But when you think about it I'mnot that smart of a guy.
It's just I'm the master of theunknown obvious.

Speaker 4 (01:10:57):
I love that do you have a shirt that says that.
Because you should.
You should help, but I think Ineed to make one yes I mean this
stuff, people, we're lookingover.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
It's all right there in front of our faces and we're
looking over it every moment ofevery day.
But when you know the ultimateskill, you start to use
everything as reps in gettingloud.
The right words at the rightmoments, and the more you play
these mental games, the more youwill have the right words and

(01:11:31):
the right moments.
You know the equation, so weget good at plugging in.
Let me give an example.
The French Olympic decathloncoach calls me and wants to know
how to put what we do in ShotIQ into the decathlon.
Now, this is much like discgolf.
I didn't know any of thedisciplines in the decathlon.

(01:11:53):
I didn't even know that therewas 10 of them, hence the name.
So this is after Rogan.
This person calls me.
They've been the Olympic levelcoach for 20 years.

Speaker 4 (01:12:08):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
Wow.
I had a video chat with thisperson.
I'm like, okay.
I said give me the biggestproblem that you're experiencing
in the decathlon with yourathletes.
And he said oh, I know exactlywhat the problem is.
He says it's with my longjumpers.
He says, as my long jumpers arerunning down the lane, right
before they put their foot onthe launch board, they put their
shoulders back involuntarily,which kills the momentum of the

(01:12:32):
jump.
Okay, so I said okay, coach,let's plug it into the mental
game equation when do you wanttheir conscious mind?
And he said I want it in thelongest jump possible.
Do you think that's correct orincorrect?

Speaker 4 (01:12:50):
I think it's incorrect.

Speaker 3 (01:12:51):

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
Where would you?
Okay, let's play the mentalgame.
Where would you put theirconscious mind?
What's the problem?

Speaker 3 (01:13:00):
I would put it into pointing my shoulders forward.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
Beautiful.
The shoulders right and gettingthem to point forward.
That is the where.
Give me the when.
When do I need their consciousmind in their shoulders?
What specific moment?
What's the moment of truth in along jump right?

Speaker 4 (01:13:21):
before they get to that board or whatever.
That line is beautiful lift offright.

Speaker 1 (01:13:25):
So now we know the where, we know the, the when.
The how is always speech.
So as they're running down thelane, right before they put
their foot on the launch board,they say shoulders or they say
forward, whatever puts theirconscious mind into their
shoulders and into keeping themforward.
That's the mental game of asuccessful long jump.

(01:13:48):
Who?
Knew.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
My mind is blown again.

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
So I asked the guy I'm like have you ever?
I said how many sportspsychologists have you talked to
?
He's like dozens.
I said have any of them everbeen long jumpers?
He said nope.
I said that's the problem withsports psychologists is they're
not the athletes.
They haven't experienced it sotherefore they don't know the
mental game of it yeah right,yeah, so I?

(01:14:23):
he said well, I've talked todozens.
I said have you ever heardanything like this before?
He said no, I well, you owe mea lot of money.
I'm sure there's sportspsychologists that deal with
this golf.
There's sports psychologists forevery sport known to mankind.
Oh yeah, but many of them don'tknow for some reason like this

(01:14:48):
is in every movement textbookthat there is.
As far as I know the textbooksthat I've looked at in
researching open and closed loopcontrol systems and then
putting them into application, Imean it's in there.
The diagrams are nauseatingabout the M1 and the M2 response
paths and all this stuff, and Ijust make it really simple.

(01:15:11):
But it seems like the sportspsychologists haven't even seen
this.
And if you don't know open andclosed loop control systems, you
can't possibly know the whenand the where of the mental game
equation.
So if you don't know the mentalgame equation or the where and
the when of it, you don't knowhow to play the mental game of

(01:15:34):
your sport and you dang suredon't know how to fix a problem
you might not even know how torecognize a problem is what I'm
hearing from you veryperceptive.
So when I you know, when I wastraining the phill, I'm like,
okay, what's the problem?
They're like, well, we got thisone guy throwing a cutter and

(01:15:54):
the release point is wrong.
I said, okay, well, what areyou doing to fix it?
They're like we're trying toget him to cut the ball in half
with his index finger and keephis wrist flexed.
I'm like, okay, where are youhaving him fix that in the motor
program?
He's like, well, out therewhere he does that.
Where are you having him fixthat in the motor program?
He's like, well, out therewhere he does that.
I said you can't fix it outthere.
That's in the open loop portion.
You can't.

(01:16:14):
You have to fix it before hishands come apart.
So you got to fix the grip onthe ball right.
So it's just, you got to havehim flex his wrist before he
sends it.
You can't fix it in the middlebecause it will alter the entire
pitch motor program and that'sall towards all kinds of nasty.

Speaker 3 (01:16:34):
There's a lot of similarities between baseball
and disc golf too, becausethere's a lot of sidearm players
.
Yeah, throwing motions, loadingup the hips and planting the
foot.

Speaker 1 (01:16:49):
Well, I asked them, I tried to get the pictures.
I'm like somebody hereexplained to me how you do what
you do and there was nothing I'mlike.
So you guys are running ontalent alone.
You have good days and bad daysand you don't know the
difference.
That is so my game they're likeyeah, that's so, like yeah, yeah
, that's true, I'm like well,and coaches, I you know.

(01:17:11):
I asked the coaches, I saidwhat does the mound visit sound
like for you?
And they, it was silence.
And then finally one guy saidwell, I like to go out there and
ask them how they're feeling.
I said okay, what do they tellyou?
Well, sometimes they saythey're feeling good and
sometimes they say they'refeeling bad.
I'm like that's a worthlessconversation because I said I

(01:17:32):
looked at the players.
I said none of you guys knowhow you do what you do.
And coaches, you don't know howthey do what they do.
So mound visits are nonsense.
You can't possibly fix aproblem.
But pitchers, when you blueprinthow you do what you do, like
you, you know that when you liftyour leg, you say the word coil
, so it gets you to lift yourleg a little bit higher and coil

(01:17:55):
your hips.
And then you say MIT, beforeyou send it right, which puts
the conscious mind in vision andkeeps it out of the pitch motor
program.
Then you can blueprint that.
You have something that is nowblueprintable, if that's even a
word Right.
And so now you know how you dowhat you do.

(01:18:19):
So if there's a problem, thecoach can come out to the mound
and go hey man, are you sayingcoil when you lift your leg?
Oh man, coach, I forgot.
Okay, let's get back to theblueprint Understanding how you
do.
What you do is the definitionof confidence.

Speaker 3 (01:18:41):
I'm still just blown away Well one of the things that
.

Speaker 4 (01:18:46):
So you're talking about the blueprinting and I
remember that from the podcastthat we heard and then you're
talking about.
So when you blueprint something, you're actually going back
through and thinking, okay, so Idid this at this time.
Here's what I was saying andgoing through that whole.

Speaker 1 (01:19:11):
The blueprint is in the speech.
What did I say?
When did I say it?
The blueprint for your keepingyour thumb stiff on your putt.
What do I say?
I say stiff.
When do I say it?
Right before I start mybackswing.
And then what do I do?
Then I say link, right, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:19:34):
So now you know how you do it.
So when you're blueprinting,you're just walking yourself
through that process verbally,and maybe physically too, and
then working out the bugs.

Speaker 1 (01:19:49):
That's why you do commentary throws, that's why
you do them out loud, so thatyou can go oh, that was good.
Okay, what did I say?
I said this?
When did I say it?
I said it at this specificmoment To put my conscious mind
in this specific place, at thisspecific moment.

(01:20:09):
You can't run it on talentalone.
To put my conscious mind inthis specific place at this
specific moment and I, you can'tyou can't run it on talent
alone.

Speaker 3 (01:20:15):
Yeah, I loved it when you said you know you're
running off of talent and youhave good days and bad days, you
know, and that is so the thegolf game is.
You can, you can go out thereand you can shoot.
You know, six under and havethe round of your life and then
you can go out there the nextday and shoot 20 up.

(01:20:35):
I mean, it's happened to memore than once, yeah, and man is
that frustrating when thathappens, it's like man, why and
this is it- this is it Not myopinion.

Speaker 1 (01:20:50):
This is it Not my opinion.
This is how it all works.

Speaker 4 (01:20:52):
So I have a question so with this process.
So there are some things like Ican play the piano but I have a
mental block with understandinghow to play the guitar.
With disc golf I can throw abackhand throw, but I can feel
it.
There's a mental block in myhead anytime I try to do a

(01:21:17):
sidearm throw, which is likepitching a ball, because it's
not something that I, you know,have really done.
Is there a way I can use thisprocess to kind of break down
that wall and learn this skill?

Speaker 3 (01:21:32):
Remove restrictions and roadblocks.

Speaker 1 (01:21:36):
Because you're not so familiar with the sidearm throw
.
You're trying to fix it in themiddle of it, and that's what
you're seeing.
You're seeing this altering ofthe motor program.
You see it as a mental block.
That's what you're seeingYou're seeing this altering of
the motor program.
You see it as a mental blockand it probably looks like I
don't know if it's like aCharles Barkley golf swing.

(01:21:58):
It gets all crazy, right, but itgets crazy because you're
trying to alter the motorprogram within the motor program
.
You got to decide on what you'regoing to do on this particular
one throw and get all thetensions in the right direction
before you do your backswing.
Or it might be at the if it's,if it doesn't require a bunch of

(01:22:19):
power, it might be at the topof your backswing, right, but it
can't be in the throw motorprogram.
During that phase yourconscious mind needs to be in
vision so that it stays out ofthe motor program, because right
now it's trying to get in thereand you're doing all kinds of
weird movements.
So that's the mental block is.

(01:22:39):
You know, you just figure outwhat is what movement you want
to emulate, like, okay, thisperson, you know whatever.
If you're watching somebody,like, okay, cool, and you can
just pick it apart, you know,and when you do the movement,
you'll you got to find theproblems.
You got to do the movement afew times to find where the

(01:23:03):
problems are.
And then, okay, I'm going toput my conscious mind in this
portion of my wrist or whateverat this moment so I so and then
you do it.
Do it super slow to start with,do the whole thing closed loop
so you can gain feedback withinthe whole thing, not trying to
hit the basket, just trying todo the throw so I've.

Speaker 4 (01:23:26):
I've noticed, because I've been trying to do this
more, the times where I don'tlike, I give myself the calm to
do the throw and I don't thinkabout it halfway through, are
more successful than it's likeif I'm trying really hard then I
tend to.
Just it turns into a roller orsomething tend to.

Speaker 1 (01:23:52):
Just it turns into a roller or something it's.
It's a mess, because that iswhere you you're altering the
motor program.
You're trying to throw it goodand to do that, you're trying to
hit these marks inside themotor program.
You can't do it that way.
The marks have to be, you know,your tensions have to be in the
right directions before yousend it, like the ones you're
like.
Well, I kind of just did it.

(01:24:13):
That's the time where you keptyour conscious mind out of it
and you let the motor program doits thing.

Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
So, you've got a blueprint what you're doing on
those.
So when you have one of those,you're like okay, what did I say
?
When did I say it?
And you'll find that youweren't.
You were not speaking duringthe forward motion of it.

Speaker 3 (01:24:36):
And so one of the hardest obstacles for an athlete
to get over is overcominginjury and becoming re-injured.
I suppose it's the same process.

Speaker 1 (01:24:56):
So like overcoming injury, so injury causes pain.
Pain is an increase in thevolume of thoughts right, so you
just have to get louder louderthan the pain you got to get
louder than the pain.
You know, use it, use the painto practice getting loud, like
when I'm shooting.
Uh, you know, it might be anational championship or or

(01:25:18):
whatever, a vegas shoot orsomething where money's on the
line.
I will, because I know that onmy first scoring arrows I shake
more than normal, okay, which isan increase in the volume of
thoughts Like, oh my gosh, I'mshaking all over the map right,
yeah.

(01:25:39):
So what I do in my practice endsis I shoot on one foot Because
you get you know you're going toshoot 30 arrows for score, but
right before you do that, youknow you're going to shoot 30
arrows for score, but before,right before you do that you
shoot two practice ends, so youget to shoot two iterations of
just practice arrows rightbefore you start your scoring

(01:26:00):
round.
So that is where I will shooton one foot.
I do that so that I see a hugeaim arrows all over the map,
right, but I still work throughmy trigger no matter where the
arrow goes.
I still work through my triggerwhile standing on one foot

(01:26:22):
because I'm getting reps inletting go of the aim.
I'm getting reps when my bodyis screaming at me that I'm
going to fall over.
Right, Balance will always is avery loud thought.
Right, I'm going to fall over,just like I need to breathe now,
right, so I do that.

(01:26:42):
I shoot on one foot so that Iget reps in getting loud with
the right words at the rightmoment.
I use everything to make mestronger.
I do not allow things to makeme weaker.

Speaker 3 (01:26:57):
That's a freaking good idea.
Whenever I practice putting nowI'm doing it on one foot.

Speaker 4 (01:27:05):
Well, that's like how I was throwing with my
non-dominant foot and last yearwhen my wrist hurt, I started
putting left-handed and actuallywas doing pretty good using my
non-dominant hand because I wasgoing through the same.
I guess speech in my head, it'snot even a thought process.

(01:27:26):
We need to look at it as aspeech.

Speaker 1 (01:27:32):
There's no such thing as a thought process.
Thoughts do not follow aprocess, it's a thinking process
.
It's just common for us to saythought process.

Speaker 4 (01:27:40):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:41):
Right, so you were in your.
You know, when you changesomething and it requires more
attention, you get into the kindof this honeymoon stage, right,
Like oh my gosh, this is somuch better.
Right, that's when the processis the purest, that's when you
have to blueprint it Because wequickly become more efficient.

(01:28:03):
Your subconscious is constantlypushing you toward efficiency,
not accuracy.
So, knowing that yoursubconscious is constantly
pushing you toward efficiency,we are now attempting to stay in
the cognitive stage of learningwhat's in the cognitive stage

(01:28:24):
of learning Self-talk.
But it doesn't make sense forus to stay in the cognitive
stage like why would we do this?
We know how to throw the discRight, but all of these things
we're talking about are, if youencounter problems within these
things, like you've become tooefficient on something, like

(01:28:47):
you're dragging your thumb is anefficiency.
Your subconscious thinks it'sgood.
You consciously think it's not.

Speaker 3 (01:29:00):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:29:01):
Right Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:29:01):
You nailed it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:04):
Yeah, this is very common in the shooting world,
because your subconscious doesnot want you to shoot a bow, it
does not want you to pull thisthing apart and then create this
explosion as a surprise.
That's completely unnatural verymuch, so it's fun, but it's
scary yeah, so the yips inarchery is known as target panic

(01:29:24):
.
That's its common name, right?
But target panic is like oh man, I got target panic.
Well, common name, right.
But target panic is like oh man, I got target panic.
Well, like, it's not a disease,bro, it is, you're born with it
.
Like if, if you were an infantand I clapped over your head,
you would close your eyes.
You would have a reaction tothat because you believed impact

(01:29:44):
was coming.
That's target panic.
That's the y?
Yips, we're born with it.
So we have to know how tooverride it.
Not necessarily beat it,because it's always there in the
background, right, but you haveto know how to override it.

Speaker 3 (01:30:02):
I think for disc golf that target panic is fear of
outcome.
So people have said that.
They say that in archery too,panic is fear of outcome.

Speaker 1 (01:30:10):
So people have said that.
They say that in archery too.
Target panic is the fear ofmissing Right, but none of it is
the fear of something, it'sjust an increase in the volume
of thoughts.
The result is oh my gosh, if Ihit this putt, I'm gonna win 50

(01:30:32):
grand that is a thought right.
That has no instruction, thathas no strategy.
It cannot solve the problem.
So you have to increase thevolume of your thinking.
Just treat problems as you know.
It increases the volume of yourthoughts.
Cool, let it come in and knowhow to override it through

(01:30:54):
speech.

Speaker 4 (01:30:56):
So there's times where Brandon will be caddying
for me at a women's event.
And he'll start talking to meabout stuff and I'm like stop it
.
I want you to stay in thisneutral, because I don't want
the additional either.
Good job, and I don't want theextra.
Like you need to pick it up, Ijust want you to stay neutral so

(01:31:19):
that you're not adding theextra thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:31:22):
well, the extra words that are then going to get set
in my head as thoughts, Right,so anything that he says will
direct your conscious mind intoa specific task at a specific
moment.
Yeah, unless you're louder,right, so he can be beneficial
if he knows your blueprint.

(01:31:43):
Okay so if he doesn't know yourblueprint, he's not going to be
beneficial, Just like thepitching coach.
The mound visit for most peopleis nonsense, but if you know
each other's blueprint, you cansay hey, Jenny, did you remember
to say this at this moment?

(01:32:04):
Oh, I forgot.
Okay, next time make sure yousay that.

Speaker 4 (01:32:11):
All right.

Speaker 1 (01:32:11):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:32:11):
Yeah, I'm picking that up.
I think we can figure this out.

Speaker 3 (01:32:16):
I like the mountain visit reference, because I used
to be a catcher so that was athing for me.
Yeah there you go.

Speaker 1 (01:32:22):
Yeah, and it makes complete sense, because they'd
be like hey, man, if you don'tknow each other's blueprint, it
means nothing.
Yeah, if you don't know eachother's blueprint, it means
nothing.
Yeah.
But if you know each other'sblueprint, you can be extremely
beneficial to one another.
Like my son is considered to beone of the greatest archers in
the world.

Speaker 3 (01:32:40):
Yes, I've heard Brag.
Please Well.

Speaker 1 (01:32:45):
I get to be in the coach's box in these big
shoot-offs, right, and Inormally don't have to say
anything to him because I know,I know his blueprint and he
follows it very religiously andif there is a problem he knows
how to fix it.
But other archers I have thatI'm coaching at the time like

(01:33:08):
they're doing the same bigshoot-off, but it might be a
female event or whatever, andthey've asked me to be in the
coach's box and I see them whenthey're in their practice
they're trying to hit the X andthey're trying so hard to hit
the X In their practice senseI'm like it's not your job.
Your job is to talk loud enoughabout your trigger pressure

(01:33:32):
increase that you could stop itanywhere within it, right, so I
have to redirect them to theirblueprint.
You know and hopefully it's anarcher that I've already worked
with, but even if it's not anarcher that you, you know if
you're trying to help somebodyout, you know where their
conscious mind needs to be andwhen it needs to be there.

(01:33:53):
You've seen thousands of throwsof the disc.
So you know, you know theblueprints of these people.
You know they may have nevereven heard any of this stuff
before.
So I mean, I think this isprobably the first time the disc
golf community is going to behearing all this stuff oh for
sure, oh yeah, unless they'veheard me on some other, some

(01:34:15):
other podcasts, but um, so youknow, whatever you say is where
your player's, so and, and, and,be aware that people can use
this for evil as well I had anexperience like that.

Speaker 4 (01:34:38):
I was just gonna say brandon had an experience this
weekend where uh one of theplayers followers kept saying
things in jest that maybeweren't as uh just full as they
intended and that, you know,really brought down the, the
overall feel of the, the card ofpeople playing yeah, and I and

(01:35:01):
I've been guilty of being thatone that brings down the card
because I get the negativefeedback loop.

Speaker 1 (01:35:07):
Yeah, and that's just thoughts, man, just take it in
and use it.
People don't use their thoughtsenough.
They don't have any controlover them.
Anyways, they're coming in.
Let them in Right Now.
You know how to override them,so you're just using them to
practice getting louder.

(01:35:28):
It's just going to make youstronger and stronger and
stronger Over red switch.

Speaker 3 (01:35:33):
I love it, the big red button Boop.
So where did you come up withthis stuff Like this is so what
was your saying?
Again, you're the, you're theexpressor of the.

Speaker 1 (01:35:49):
I'm the master of the unknown obvious.
There you go, the master of theunknown.

Speaker 5 (01:35:53):
We gotta write that down we're gonna have to send
you a disc with that on it?

Speaker 1 (01:35:58):
yeah, that'd be great .
So where I came up with allthis stuff was out of necessity,
because I was not a good shotand I I loved shooting.
I grew up shooting.
I started shooting a bow when Iwas seven years old.
I started shooting a centerfirerifle when I was five years old
and I've just been obsessedwith shooting, especially

(01:36:19):
archery, my whole life.
And when I became a cop becauseI wasn't good.
I was not a good shooter.
I was dealing with all kinds oftarget panic issues and
punching the trigger on a rifleand punching the trigger on an
archery release.
It was not good and I was onthis never-ending quest to

(01:36:43):
figure it out, but I didn't haveenough determination to
research it enough until Ibecame a cop.
And when I became a cop, it'slike man, I got to figure this
out because I'm watching.
All the cops around me got thesame problem and we're you know
we are not hitting very muchwith our pistols and our rifles.

(01:37:06):
I'm like man, this is not goingto go well out on the street
here.
So, two years into my lawenforcement career, I had the
opportunity to become a firearmsinstructor because I loved
instructing, I just loved it and.
But again, I didn't know how Idid what I did, and so not a lot

(01:37:30):
of confidence in it.
But you know, I was working atthe academy as a firearms
instructor and that gave methousands of recruits to
experiment on and to talk, yeah,and to talk them through.
Little did I know that I had totalk them through a shot.

(01:37:51):
And I had one recruit one day.
That was what we call a nervousNelly, and just a very jittery
personality, like a scaredy cat,like, I mean, movements were
fast, speech was fast,everything was fast, and you
know they were shooting horribly.
I mean they were at 20 yards.

(01:38:12):
I remember they're bouncing thebullets off the floor.
The bullets were hitting thefloor at 15 yards, so like
massive pre-ignition movementsflinches, if you will, when they
press the trigger.
And so I got up to this personand I was able to talk them
through a trigger press Veryspecifically.

(01:38:34):
I had them, you know, take theslack out of the trigger.
I'm like, okay, don't make thegun go off.
I wanted to start pressingtrigger but don't make the gun
go off.
And as soon as I saw thatpressure increase, I started
talking.
I took over their contraband.
I'm like, okay, a little bit.
Yeah, that's good, keeppressing, keep pressing, keep
pressing, keep pressing, pow,and the gun went off.

(01:38:55):
It went off as a surprise andthe bullet went through the 10
ring and that was my light bulbmoment.
I'm like I had complete controlof this recruit's mind, and so I
started to do the research.
And it's just funny how it allcomes together.
And so I started to do theresearch.
And it's just funny how it allcomes together.
There was one of the sniperinstructors that I worked with.
He was an anesthesiologist,very smart guy, and so I had

(01:39:20):
written an article about what Iwas finding, because before I
came along, what was happeningwas all the instructors for
decades would yell front sight,front, sight, front sight.
That's what they would yellduring the shot right.
And I'm like I don't thinkthat's the problem.

(01:39:40):
I don't think aiming is theproblem, I think it's these
flinches that are happening withthe trigger press.
Right, it was the core problemin shooting.
Your subconscious mind will notallow you to cause your body
impact as a surprise.
And once we understood thatthat's the problem, then we're
like okay, how do I get thisrecruit, this police officer, to

(01:40:04):
concentrate on the triggerpress?
Well, first I had to figure outhow do you concentrate.
And that's when I startedwriting these things and I gave
it to my anesthesiologist,sniper buddy, and because every
SWAT team usually has an erdoctor or an anesthesiologist or
some type of medical personnel,right, and he was, he was for

(01:40:26):
that team, and so I wrote thisarticle and I gave it to him.
And he comes back to me thenext day and goes hey, jt,
that's neuro-linguisticprogramming you're talking about
.
I'm like, holy smokes, doc,that was a big word.
Stand by.
I'm like what does that mean?
Yeah, I'm like, what does thatmean?
He says, well, you know,basically, what you say is what

(01:40:46):
you think.
'm like okay, and so that'swhere it all really started.
And then there was a.
There was a kinesthesiologistat the academy and and by this
time, uh, I had worked my wayinto the lead firearm instructor
position.
So I every fire or every policeofficer had to come through me
in Washington state for firearmstraining and in the academy.

(01:41:08):
And that's where I really gotto start the experimentation.
And I was coming up with thesehypotheses and this one guy at
the academy, we just did not seeeye to eye.
And he comes to me one day.
He says look, man, he goes,what you're doing works, but
it's not right.
And I'm like okay, well, I needto know what's right.
And he's like well, you gottacome take my class.

(01:41:29):
I'm like, sign me up.
So I took his class and that'swhere I learned about open and
closed loop control systems.
I also learned that they'dnever been put into shooting,
and I also learned that theapplication of them was not
being applied as it could be,not, it was not being applied as

(01:41:54):
it as it could be.
And so then I learned aboutvisual proprioception and how
the mind uses visual feedback toaim things and like.
When you're driving down theroad you get visual feedback to
your vehicles varying slightly.
To one side, you do anautomatic corrective movement on
the steering wheel.
When that vehicle's back in thecenter lane, as a visual
feedback, you stop that movementon the steering wheel.
That's how you aim right.

(01:42:15):
But people had always put somuch emphasis into the aim.
When you do that, it takes allof the attention off of the
trigger pressure increase, whichis where the pre-ignition
movements lie, which the flinchright.
So I learned how to directconcentration in specific tasks,
not knowing the whole time thatI'm starting to use firearms to

(01:42:38):
practice the ultimate skill ofgetting loud.
And you know, I had an officercome to me one day and told me
hey, man, he had just gottenthis hellacious gunfight where
you know big pursuit car'swrecked dude takes an ar over
the back seat and startsslinging rounds at all the cops.
Holy cow, he's, he's shootingat the bad guy and goes through

(01:43:03):
an entire magazine in his pistoland doesn't hit the guy.
And he went behind his trunk toto do a reload.
And that's when he said heheard my voice to put the sight
on the bad guy and press thetrigger, and so that's when he
rolled out from behind the trunkand the gunfight was ended in
one shot after that.

(01:43:24):
So just stuff like that, likeman, this is really wild how
this is all coming together andhappening.
And so what I did is I learnedthe sciences to package of open
and closed loop control systems,neurolinguistic programming and
visual proprioception.
Now, this is just for shootingin general.
And then and I just stayed inmy lane right I just I applied

(01:43:48):
it to archery because that wasthe passion of my life, and now
you know we sell that shot iqonline course around the world.
Um so, but it was all born infirearms.
Then it was in archery and bowhunting and all the all the
higher stress things that we doand all the high stress

(01:44:08):
tournaments that we do.
Then I got on the rogan podcast.
Rogan bought my online course,like in 2016.
He was one of the first peopleto buy it and really, and he, he
had talked about me on 11different podcasts and then I
got the opportunity to actuallygo down and and meet, uh, meet
him and his some of his cliquethere, you know, and got to

(01:44:32):
shoot with him and you know.
Then I got the invite to be onthe podcast, and so that's when
you know.
He said, hey, man, this isapplicable to everything.
And that's when I'm like man.
I got to figure this out becausenow I've got all these people
calling me and I got to haveanswers for them.
When my son was the youngestmale to ever win the Vegas shoot

(01:44:58):
in the professional division,he won it at 15.
He was 15 for one day and hewon the Vegas shoe and that gave
the credibility to the Shot IQprogram enough that I was able
to retire in April of 22.
And so we've been doing Shot IQand Mind IQ ever since.

(01:45:19):
That's amazing.
And it's taken me to some justamazing places and meeting
amazing people, and I just keepsimplifying and simplifying and
simplifying and just getting itdown to like this is right in
front of our faces people, wejust need to be using it in a
different way.
Wow, so that's where it's allfrom.

(01:45:39):
Wow, if you listen to roganpodcast, it's number 1943.
For those of you that want toknow, you'll hear about one of
my, one of my adventures as aSWAT sniper in the hostage
rescue.

Speaker 3 (01:45:53):
So I have to ask.
I know that Rogan has all hisguests come in early and work
out with him.
What's that like?
Like the guy's an animal?

Speaker 1 (01:46:04):
Yeah, he is an animal .
I didn't go work out with him,it was kind of wild.
You go to this building,there's no markings on, there's
just cameras everywhere and andsome uh, great big spec ops guy
comes out and gets you and yougo in there, you, you do your
thing and then, and then off yougo so wow.
Now he does different thingswith different people, but yeah,

(01:46:26):
yeah but I mean we keep, wekeep in touch regularly,
regularly and uh, yeah, it'sgood.
He's a very smart man, he's avery good interviewer.

Speaker 3 (01:46:35):
Oh yeah, he is, yeah yeah.
A lot of respect for him, eventhough I've never met him in
person.

Speaker 1 (01:46:43):
Yeah, he's a good dude.

Speaker 3 (01:46:44):
Well, now you've broken through to the disc golf
community.

Speaker 4 (01:46:48):
Yes, yep, here I am Welcome to disc golf.

Speaker 3 (01:46:52):
Yeah, and I tell you, uh, tour players would eat this
up because the anxiety of youknow the way the sport's growing
and now they're playing for bigmoney in front of big audiences
.
Uh, I tell you what this is.
This is going to be veryvaluable to the disc golf
community, right?

Speaker 1 (01:47:13):
So if people want to learn more about this, I have an
online course at mindiqcom.
The course is titled Mind IQ,and that's where you learn all
about open and closed loopcontrol systems.
How do you get loud, what arethe right words, what are the
right moments?
The mental game equation wewent over a lot of it today, but

(01:47:34):
there's a lot of it in thatcourse that we did not cover
that.
It may be for your disc golf,it may be for your kids
basketball, it may be foranxiety attacks, and I mean it
just covers the gamut of how wedo what we do.
So, yeah, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:47:51):
Oh, I was going to ask Does this apply to people
with, like, say, PTSD?

Speaker 1 (01:47:59):
Oh, for sure.
I mean think about it.
Yeah, like what is PTSD.
It's got all kinds of symptomsand all kinds of things, but it
is an increase in the volume ofthoughts and when you know how
to override those through yourvoice and you know the right
words for the right moments, youdon't have those anxiety
attacks and all those symptomsthat come along with it.

(01:48:21):
So I mean, there's all kinds oftherapists out there, but I
don't know.
I've done some of the stuff,not like military operators and
such, but I've been in somepretty bad places and had to do
some things.
So I don't know if you've everbeen in a traumatic experience

(01:48:45):
like that, but you see it everyday.

Speaker 3 (01:48:49):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:48:50):
It's kind of weird.
You, you see it every day andin, but you don't.
You don't have to dwell on it.
You can see it as if you'restill here, you can see it as a
positive and it's just anincrease in the volume of
thoughts, man.
So if you know how to overridethat and this is what we do
anyways you know people talkabout self-help and all this

(01:49:12):
stuff, but people don't seem torealize how important it is to
have the right words at theright moments.
And what is the?
You know having the ability toget loud.
What does that sound like?
What does that feel like foryou?
And just that empty lung holdkind of opens up like.
And just that empty lung holdkind of opens up Like.
That's what it sounds like toget loud.
And that's also what it soundslike to give up If you've got

(01:49:37):
two less seconds, jenny.
Yes.
That's what it feels like togive up without having the
consequences of it.

Speaker 3 (01:49:50):
She's blushing right now, Joel.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:54):
I don't mean to call you out like that, but that's
what it?
Is.

Speaker 3 (01:49:57):
Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (01:49:57):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean get 10 more seconds,feel you know, get loud.
That is the skill that gets usthrough everything.

Speaker 4 (01:50:08):
Yeah, and one of the things, brandon, you were asking
about the PTSD I know, one ofthe things that we've been
working ourselves and then withour kids with is that you know,
when you're having that anxietyattack or you're having that
thing is coming up.
You have been telling us thatthat's what we need to work
towards, we need to find a wayto lean into it, and I think

(01:50:29):
that's also like to connect itwith what we're hearing here.
Is that that's your way ofsaying that I need to get louder
than that thing.
So I think that you have a lotof these skills already.
You just you know you usedifferent words.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:50:49):
Well, you've just got to use it.
You know, if you've got thisbad experience or whatever, use
it to make you stronger.

Speaker 3 (01:50:55):
Yeah for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:50:56):
Don't allow it to make you weaker.
Don't allow the the yell thatyou hear in the crowd to make
you weaker.
Just an increase in the volumeof thoughts.
Cool yeah, Bring it.

Speaker 3 (01:51:06):
I kind of, I kind of equate it to like to like that,
uh, like that runner's high typeof thing where you know
distance runners, they'll justkind of zone out, zone out and
go into this meditative state,uh, even though it hurts and
it's painful and you know it,like running sucks but you, you
always feel better after you'vedone it.

(01:51:27):
Or like lifting weights orsomething of that nature.
I mean, you just block out thepain.

Speaker 1 (01:51:35):
Yeah, but how do you block it out?
You talk to these runners andthey'll be in that meditative
state until their feet arebleeding.
Yeah.
Right, and then they're like oh,meditation, don't get it, no
more.
So you've got to like that'swhere you got to get loud.
How do they keep going?

(01:51:55):
How do they keep going?
How does somebody keep goingfor 200 miles, right?
The only way you can do that isthrough speech, right?
Well, and you've got to getloud with the right words at the
right moments right andsometimes you don't know those
words in those right momentsuntil you have to have that

(01:52:16):
experience, that bad experienceor good experience or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:52:20):
But don't lose it as an opportunity to blueprint how
you did it now you said that thetime to and maybe, maybe I
missed it, but the time toblueprint this stuff is in that
honeymoon zone.
Can you emphasize on that alittle bit more?

Speaker 1 (01:52:41):
just if you change something, like if you get a new
disc where you have to payparticular attention to your
hand placement or whateverthat's you know, and you're
throwing this thing like man,this is so awesome and
everything's going awesome.
This new thing, Well, that'sgoing to go away, if you allow
it to.

(01:53:01):
It's that honeymoon phase, whensomething draws your attention.
That's the purest form of theprocess.
That's when you are talkingLike, oh, this feels kind of
weird.
Okay, I'm going to place myhand right here.
Okay, yeah, that's good.
Right, that's going to becomean automatic motor program and

(01:53:23):
for some things like thethrowing motion, I want that to
get to be automatic through goodrepetition.
But then if there's a problemin it, you know how to fix it.
But if you change something,there's this little honeymoon,
right, Like if you get a new bow, you get a new release aid,
right.
You're like, oh man, thisthing's so awesome.
You know people in the archerworld they'll change release

(01:53:45):
aids.
They'll go from an index fingerto a thumb button, Like, oh my
gosh, I think I'm the greatestarcher in the world.
And then a week later they'repunching the crap out of that
thing.
Now too right so, when you arein that honeymoon phase, if you
do get something new or you'retrying something new and it's
just amazing, blueprint it.
What did I say?

(01:54:07):
When did I say it?

Speaker 3 (01:54:08):
because that's how you're directing your conscious
mind and that's when you aredirecting it and you and you
said also that the verballinguistic programming that's
been debunked by science, if Icaught that right
neurolinguistic neurolinguisticprogramming so it was all you
know, like tony rob, self-help,get yourself out of the gutter.

Speaker 1 (01:54:31):
It was used for, like all this self-help stuff, like
what I say comes to fruition,right?
Well, in that regard, it wasnot necessarily scientific,
because people were overlookingthe fact that the words put your
conscious mind in specificplaces for movements right, it

(01:54:55):
doesn't make money come intoyour bank account because you're
happier, right.
So people were using it in thatregard instead of using it for
okay, I need to perfect thisLike a sales call.
Who wants to do a cold call asa salesperson?

Speaker 3 (01:55:18):
Or call a parent.
When I was in high school, Iworked for a place where we had
to make cold call sales a callcenter and it was terrifying.

Speaker 1 (01:55:34):
Because you're scared of public humiliation.
How did you get yourself to doit?
Uh well, a paycheck had rightbut when you're staring, you're
sitting there staring at thephone going.
Man, I do not want to do this.
That is a thought.
How?
Did you get yourself to pick upthe?
Phone and, man, I do not wantto do this.
That is a thought.
How did you get yourself topick up the phone and dial the
number?
You've had to go, man, I'm justgonna do it yeah, okay, pick up

(01:55:59):
the freaking phone.

Speaker 3 (01:56:00):
Throw caution to the wind and go for it same thing
with calling.

Speaker 1 (01:56:03):
You know, I had to call irate people all the time.
You got to call a parent, yougot to call whatever and tell
them that you just arrestedlittle johnny.
Well, here it goes and here wego yeah, yeah.
So that's the here I go moment,because that makes picking up
the phone the only thing in yourworld.

(01:56:23):
So before you have to dosomething difficult, here I go
is pretty common verbiage forthe human being.

Speaker 4 (01:56:31):
Yeah, yeah, it is.

Speaker 3 (01:56:33):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:56:37):
Well, joel, it's right there in front of our face
, people.

Speaker 3 (01:56:39):
Yeah, this has been a mind-blowing experience.

Speaker 1 (01:56:47):
Beautiful.

Speaker 3 (01:56:47):
Yeah, I'm going to do this every day, and Jenny was
here with me the whole time.
So now our, our practice roundsare going to be forever,
completely changed.

Speaker 4 (01:56:58):
Yeah, and hopefully our tournament.
So I'm hoping for the thehashtag to go viral of here I go
Like there we go, she doesn't.

Speaker 3 (01:57:10):
she doesn't like mine of always practicing no, I
don't.
No, just here I go and then yougot what is?
What is Joel's here?
The master of the unknownobvious.
There's.
I'm reading it upside down goodjob, it's great, oh my gosh.

(01:57:31):
Well, uh, joel, do you haveanything else that you'd want to
add?
Or jenny?

Speaker 4 (01:57:38):
or I'm just?
I'm just mind blown.
I hope that our paths do crossat some point, and maybe at a
disc golf course.
I do hope that we get theopportunity to meet you in
person, and I don't know whatyour?
Schedule looks like and youdon't need to say anything.
Uh on the air, but uh, thecascade challenge is coming to

(01:57:58):
Shelton in May.
I believe it's like the 16ththrough the 20th somewhere in
there.
It's the professional discgolfers tour.
Yeah, so if you wanted to, ifyou were in the area, you could
swing by and and check that out.
Have you ever?

Speaker 3 (01:58:13):
seen a frisbee fly of 800 feet no let me tell you, it
is something yeah, it is it isa visceral experience.
It you just scratch your headand you're like what?

Speaker 1 (01:58:29):
it's so in when we're equating that to archery and
ball golf.
Watching a trajectory pathcaptivates the human mind and
always has that's why people getinto archery and they fletch
their arrows with really brightfletchings.
that's what keeps people intraditional archery, and they
fletch their arrows with reallybright fletchings.

(01:58:50):
That's what keeps people intraditional archery shooting
recurves and longbows becauseyou get to see the flight of
your arrow, you get to see theflight of the disc.
It's one of the most gorgeousthings that there is.
You have propelled, andwatching it follow the exact

(01:59:14):
path that you know it needs tois a beautiful thing, and it
keeps you coming back, yeah,over and over again.

Speaker 3 (01:59:18):
Yep, it sure does.

Speaker 4 (01:59:18):
That's the one, yeah, that's the one, yeah,
especially now fascinating well,now that I've because I've, you
know, I wasn't very good at atfirst, but now that I've gotten
to the point where I canactually throw the disc and see
a full flight like it's reallyamazing and you can do all the
different shapes and manipulate.

Speaker 3 (01:59:36):
I'm starting to on purpose.

Speaker 4 (01:59:38):
Yeah, on purpose that's the.
Thing with intention, yeah,that is incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:59:47):
Yeah, you're absolutely right, joel.
Alright, well, if we don't have, that is incredible.
Yeah, you're absolutely right,Joel.
All right, well, if we don'thave anything else, let's go
into our wrap-up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:00:00):
That's all I got for you.
That's my life story in an hour.

Speaker 4 (02:00:04):
That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (02:00:05):
And.

Speaker 4 (02:00:06):
I am so grateful that we got to talk to you.
I haven't stopped smiling thiswhole episode.
I think I have a little bit ofa headache.
I'm going to need to let someof this settle and figure out
what I'm going to tell myself.

Speaker 1 (02:00:20):
It's kind of like drinking out of a fire hose, but
don't make it more than that.
Well, at least we had the idea.

Speaker 4 (02:00:26):
We've heard the Joe Rogan podcast so we had an idea,
but now it's so much deepereven though you keep saying you
try and make it more simple,it's so much more now.

Speaker 1 (02:00:37):
I mean that Rogan podcast was two years ago.

Speaker 3 (02:00:39):
Well, simple doesn't mean easy.

Speaker 1 (02:00:41):
True, yeah, simple does not mean easy, but it helps
that it is simple.
Yeah.
Just knowing how you're goingto do.
What you're going to do is sopowerful.

Speaker 4 (02:00:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:00:53):
Yeah, wow, yeah.
Wow.
Well, joel, whenever you're intown next, hit us up.
You got my number.
We'll take you out for a roundand show you the sport that we
love.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:01:08):
Sounds good.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (02:01:09):
Yeah, and no need to bring discs.
We got plenty.

Speaker 4 (02:01:12):
Oh, yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (02:01:16):
So in this episode of the Intentional Disc Golfer
Podcast, we got to talk to JoelTurner from Shot IQ and Mind IQ
and he has forever changed theway that we're going to approach
the game and that we're goingto think about the game.
If you love us, like us,appreciate us, please hit that
like, subscribe, share button,tell all of your friends.

(02:01:39):
You can find us on all the mainsocial medias.
We have a Facebook andInstagram, an X, a TikTok, a
YouTube, and we have a websitewhere you can send us fan mail.
You can just click on the upperleft hand corner there, send us
a text message.
Or, if you want to email usdirectly, it is the intentional
disc golfer at gmailcom theintentional disc golfer at

(02:02:02):
gmailcom.
And if you would like tocontinue to support the cause,
we do have a Patreon.
Our catalog of things onPatreon is is growing, so please
go on the patreon at uh,patreoncom.
The intentional disc golfer.
That is backslash theintentional disc golfer.
And please stay tuned after theepisodes.
If there's any uh bloopers orouttakes, we'll pin them to the

(02:02:24):
end of the episode.
And, uh, we'd like to thank oursponsors real quick.
Uh, we are sponsored bytreasuresasures of the Forest
and they make those awesomeminis that have the stuff in
them from all the differentcourses and also Jenny Salty,
unicorns Disc Golf Apparel.

Speaker 4 (02:02:42):
And then I also wanted to say if you are
interested in more informationabout either Shot IQ or Mind IQ.
It looks like the websites arewwwshotiqcom or mindiqcom.

Speaker 3 (02:02:59):
So we'd like to thank the fans.
You guys are the reason that wecan keep doing this and that we
can make this podcast possible,so thank you very much.
I am one of your hosts my nameis Brandon and I'm Jenny, and
our guest tonight is Joel Turner, and here at the Intentional

(02:03:19):
Disc Golfer, we truly believethat disc golf changes lives, so
please go out there and growthe sport.

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