S7 Ep. 312 Unlocking Accessible E-Learning with Chris Paxton McMillan

Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
Hi everyone.
My name is IsabellaJohnston, host of
The Intern Whisperer podcast, which is brought to youby Employers 4 Change.
We help hiring teamsreduce employer hiring bias
and increase competency, skillrecruitment and learning.
Today's guest is Chris Paxton McMillin.
She is the owner of D3 Training Solutions.

(00:31):
She is a recognized, awardwinning e-learning professional
in instructional designand learning and development space.
She is also a published authorand available as a public speaker.
So Chris, welcome to the show.
I thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, I am very excited.
So tell us about yourselfusing only five words.

(00:52):
And my followers know this.
So I will prompt you with thembecause we discussed it before.
And why those five words?
So the first one you said, friend,I always find the first word
to be very significant. Why friend?
I think because
most of the people who know me always sayI never meet a stranger, and I just -
I never want people to feel alone.

(01:14):
And so to me, we should greet people with
happiness and smiles and so forth.
So I think being a friend is important.Yeah.
I would say so too, because howI first met you was the Facebook group
of our instructional designs,and we were talking about internships.
So yeah.Yes.

(01:34):
And you were so friendly and so warm.
And then I got to meet you in person and,
I know that was so exciting, yes, in Florida.
And we'll know this yearwhen we were speaking. Yeah.
Learning, yes.Ah.
Okay. Your second word.
Aunt. Why Aunt?
Most people talk about their kids
and we ended up fostering, got married late in life.

(01:55):
We ended up fostering.
And so by the time we finished fostering,I’d like to have kids.
So I just joke that I am the best auntie
in the worldand try to spoil them rotten, so.
And they're big.
They're big in my life.
I mean they spend a lot ofsummers. We take them skiing,
try to do everything we can for ‘em.
Yeah I bet the parents enjoy that too.

(02:17):
They do. Yeah sure, that's nice.
You know somebody that‘Oh we can have a date night
because we know we've got responsiblepeople.’
Exactly.
Okay, so I like this word, Ethical.
Why did you sayEthical is one of your words?
I think as a businessowner, as a contractor,
as a person in general,I think goes along with being the friend.

(02:41):
It goes along with being an aunt.
Being able to live with yourself andwith your ethics is very, very important.
And I think it's something that
we don't see as much.
Maybe people aren'treflecting on how important it is.
And so I justI feel that it's very important
that there's trust there and in order to havethe trust, you have to have the ethics
to do the right thing.

(03:03):
Yeah, I agree with you.
I was having that conversation with one ofthe project managers down at the office.
So yes, I think it's really importantto have active discussions on those.
How about Animal Lover?
Because I've seen some little critterswalking around behind you.
Not right now, but earlier.
Yes. I am the mother of three fur babies.

(03:23):
I rescue all of them.
I have two Weimaraners,
I have a Great Pyrenees mixthat someone, dumped them.
He said they all accidentally got out.
Found homes for all of them.
One of this one,the home. They got divorced.
So he came back to live with us.
I would live in a zoo if I could,I'd actually get to hold a koala.

(03:45):
I joke that my version of heaven.
I will be able to pet a polar bearand live through it.
So, you know, I like animals.
Yeah. I do too.
I like them very, very much.
One of the things I was dogsitting for somebody with a Weimaraner.
And they are wicked smart.

(04:07):
Yes they are.
I saw the dog
go to the doorand open the doorknob with his mouth.
And I went,‘Oh my gosh, that is a smart animal.’
We have little gates that kind of click.
And depending on which wayI hook it my eldest weim will open it
and he lets the two younger ones out,and then he stays in because he knows.

(04:30):
that it’s their time to go out.
Yeah. To get them out.So they get in trouble,
Yeah.yeah.
And he wants to have the house to himself.
Maybe he wantsto have you guys to himself.
I think so, I think so.That's the.
oldest child syndrome right? ‘Let me in.’
Yes and he is - and he is the oldest.
And just yeswe spoil them rotten and it's great.

(04:50):
Yeah.
The other one, the Grand Pyrenees.
Is that what you said?
Great Pyrenees? Yes.
He's a Great Pyrenees-Akita mix.
They are beautiful dogs too.
And it's so, so gentle.
They're huge,they're massive, but they are so gentle.
They are. And it's just,
and he - it this is kind of a little bitmore than we went over.

(05:11):
But he came back to usat such a personal time because my mother
had just passed awaysuddenly from pancreatic cancer.
We knew all of 12 days
in hospice, like two days.
And he came back and I was in such,
I honestly don't remember.
Several weeks,actually, months afterwards.
And he kind of came back.

(05:32):
And I love the wines that he is, myKettler and just kind of brought me back, so.
Yeah, therapy dogs.
We always need therapy dogs too.
And I think aboutevery dog is a therapy dog.
Okay, Family Focus.I agree.
Now why that word?
I was partially raised by my grandparents,and so family's very important.

(05:53):
I keep track of our genealogy.
We, my family,we've been having a family reunion
for 50 or 60 years on the 4th of July.
And when one of my great aunts passed,they sold the property.
I was like, ‘Oh,we didn't have it, partially COVID.’
And now I have 60 or 70 something peoplehere at my house every 4th of July.
So, and my husband is great with it.

(06:15):
And it's his side of the family.
My side of the family.
I mean, it'sjust everybody because I'm like, you know,
it doesn't matterif you're fourth or fifth cousins.
We're family, and family's important.
So, yeah, I like to.
I like to have those eventsand celebrate. 60 people
in a house is a lot, though.
It is. It is.

(06:36):
We try to make sure the kids are outside.
But yes, and when we built,How many bathrooms?
You gotta have a lot of bathrooms.
We - well, we also ownn 70 acre, no
We - we are in some of the acres,but not for that part.
We, well,when we built the house, part of it
when it was building was in casewe need to foster again because we were

(06:57):
asked to foster at one point in timeand it was a little two bedroom, one bath.
And it's a boy and a girl,and they had to be in separate rooms.
So when we built the house,we built it for the nieces and nephews
to visit, for fostering, for if his familyneeds to stay.
My family needs to stay.
So we,we have a few bathrooms, a bedroom.
So that's,Wonderful.

(07:17):
Yeah. Okay. Well,
And - and he did it all just becausehe knows it's important to me.
I mean, we talked about,I was 40 when we got married
and it was like, well, you know,let's - let's go off to Vegas.
And he goes, ‘You've always dreamed of yourgrandpa walking you down the aisle,
because your grandfather will walkyou down the aisle.’
And sure enough, at 92 years old,my grandpa walked me down the aisle.
Ah, so sweet.

(07:38):
And it was all, you know,because my husband.
Well, little props to him.What's his name?
Yes, his name is Kevin.
All right.
Well, Kevin,you're immortal because, like, you know,
if he's telling these wonderful storiesabout you.
That's fabulous.
That's - that is the epitomeof the definition of romance.
It is.
Well, we will talk about the factwe dated off and on for 17 years.

(08:02):
Doesn't matter, you’re still
together and apparently,Exactly.
very good to you too.
He has been very good to me.
I'm sure it goes both ways.
Okay, so tell us about your personal storyabout where you went to college.
How did you get started in your career?
Did you always want to bean instructional designer?
Tell us.
Okay, that term didn't existwhen I was in school.

(08:24):
I went to Oklahoma State University
and actually have a journalism degree,news editing.
And I had done yearbooks in high school,and newspaper in college.
And I really think a lot of that creditedtowards,
you know, what I donow as far as instructional design.
I ended up againknowing someone I had gotten late.

(08:47):
I'd worked for a publishing company,a yearbook publishing company, actually,
for several years, and didn't like all - quite all the travel by car involved.
And so I started looking for a new job,and someone I went to school with
was like,‘Well, you might be interested in this job.
It's a trainer.’And it was like, ‘Hey, why not?’
I knew a little bitabout telecommunications because my mom,

(09:07):
ended up getting - going into the field,started, you know, writing my own content.
Back then, it was ‘distance learning’,
and I actually was teachingvia webcast things like this.
I think it was WebEx.
I was even teaching on 911via this way.
And that evolved intobecause that was our version of,

(09:27):
let's see, what were they called?
Instructor-led online classes?
I think with the terms.
And then, startswitching to the CBTs with computer based.
And I got working at Worldcom,got laid off,
like many did in telecommunicationsand, such.
And so I went back to schooland got my master's and adult
occupational educationfocusing on technology.

(09:50):
And then I started working
for a trucking company.
I enjoyed it, but
they wanted to go more into the HR side,and I'm like, ‘I don't want the HR side.
I want to do more of the nerdy,behind the scenes stuff.’
So again, knowing someone, opportunitycame along to actually become a full time
instructional developer, for a NativeAmerican tribe here in Oklahoma.

(10:15):
And so I worked there for nine years.
When I started,there was two instructional designers.
We had no online classes,and by the time I left, I was the manager.
I had a department reporting to me.
I had LMS administrators,
instructional developers, and we had over,I think, 3000 online classes.

(10:36):
Wow. So, that was kind of exciting.
And I loved working there.
I loved the idea of it
I didn't enjoy management so muchbecause I wanted to do the actual work.
And the drive was by the time
we moved out into the country,my drive was almost 50 minutes each way.
Wow. So again, my husband being amazing

(10:57):
was just like, ‘If you don't like the job,quit, just quit.’
And at the time, grandpa was
probably about 94.
My siblings withthe kids who were having some,
you know, so I was like, you know,‘Let me quit.
I'll help take care of grandpa.
I'll take care of the nieces and nephewswhen needed.
And I'll just kind of do my own thing.’

(11:17):
Word gets out.
And so I started having people contact mesaying,
hey, can you do this little project for meand this little project?
And, well, I teach at a community collegeand I teach business courses
and entrepreneurship.
I did everythingopposite of what you were supposed to do
as far as the wrong order,
because I just kind of fell into itand, ended up starting my company.

(11:38):
And that was almost, it’ll be ten yearsin March. Wow.
And I still love it.I don't think that’s the wrong order.
You had a job, you were teaching,and you were taking on small projects.
So I think that's your customer validationright there.
Well, the wrong order in that I sent out,like I emailed
my Social Security numberinstead of setting up an EIN number.

(12:02):
Oh, I see.Which is a big no no.
And then it was like,oh, I need a company name.
Oh, I need this.
Oh, wait, I need, you know,so that - that part was the wrong order.
Oh well, it’s easy to fix though.
Yeah. Exactly.
And that gave you a good storysince you said you
teach business classesso you could say, well, don't do this.
This is not the correct way.Exactly.

(12:22):
That's exactly right.
It's like, learn from my lessons. Yeah.
You know. Yeah. Exactly.
So all right, tell us about your company,D3 Training Solutions. Why?
Okay, I wanted to say 3D, but you said D3.
So let's just talk about the D3.
Why was that a choice there?
Coming up with thename, I started out Paxton Consulting, but

(12:45):
I'm like, everybody uses their last nameand consulting.
And I was like,I want something different.
And I was actually driving.
And a lot of timesI think, like many people
driving, showering, running,not that I run
those down times or when you come up withand become creative.
And it was like, what do I do?
Well, I design, I deliver, I develop.

(13:07):
All right, I'm sorry.
Well, I design, I develop and I deliver.
Let's put it in the right order.
And so that became D3 Training Solutions.
Design, develop, deliver.
And I started out, a lot of people I know
kind of how I started,I started like a sole proprietor.
Then I just becamean LLC because in Oklahoma, it's better

(13:29):
if you hit a certain monetary amountbefore you become an LLC due to the taxes.
And so my tax guy had me switch,I think, four years ago,
into an LLC.
That's interesting.
And, it's - it's a lot of fun,but it just kind of hit me, that.
Yeah, that's - that's what I can do.

(13:49):
And there's so many 3Ds and I didn'twant people to think 3D like imaging.
Right. Oh, that's. Smart.
I didn't even think about that.And that's the world I live in.
So I shouldn't.
Yeah.
That is very, very smart.
Yeah I get it now. Yeah.
And I like the, the use of, you know,the alliteration if you will design.
Wait let me go back here.

(14:09):
Design, develop, and deliver. Yeah.
Good job.Thank you.
Yeah, so let's talk about what, you know,
obviously you're providing courses,but how big is your company now?
What is it that you think that,why should somebody contact you?
We'll do that question. Okay.
I think the biggest reason

(14:30):
and the reason I getthe most contacts is my, my specialty.
And I only do contractors.
I don't actually have employees.
And we can talk more about contractorsand employees and what that means.
But it’s - it -
my specialty is accessibility,making sure things meet the physical,
hearing, auditory, and,

(14:52):
cognitive impairments and challenges.
And so that's, that'skind of my specialty from my,
my own family experience,from my own personal experience.
And, and making sure it meets DHS trustedtester type items.
And so a lot of people come to mewith that in some specialty areas.
But then again,I think some of that is just

(15:14):
the long term contacts that come upwith, again, that being ethical.
One of my clients,
it was probably my second client.
We had signed a one month contractand that was nine years ago.
Oh, wow.
So, they left me for a little bitwhen they switched
software tools and they're like,‘We're sorry, but we're switching.’

(15:34):
They're also taking everything
from Bartlesville downto Houston, an oil and gas company.
And it's like, no problem, I get it.I appreciate all this time.
No big deal.
And that was in March.
And last Nov - March of last year.
And then last Novemberthey come back going,
‘Wait a minute, you use this tool toodon't you?’ And I was like, ‘Yes, I do.’
And they're like, ‘Can we bring you back?’And I was like, ‘Yes, you sure

(15:55):
can.’
I think that's ethical.I have a question.
Yeah.
So you said there were three skillsthat you focused on.
Cognitive skills. I think you said.
The physical impairments, hearingimpairments.
Visual impairments and cognitive.
So what level are we writing at,

(16:17):
make sure everybody understands,and that's
cause itkind of goes back to my journalism.
We always taught in the newspaperbusiness.
You write at the timeit was a eighth grade level.
Well,now we're writing in a sixth grade level,
and it has nothing to dowith the intelligence of the audience.
I always want to clarify that,
but it has to do with we are bombardedwith more and more information.

(16:38):
So if you're wanting them to understandit, let's write things in simpler ways.
Plus, we're so many timeswe are doing translations, converting
into different language with peoplewith English as a second language.
There's so many reasonsto, you know, write at a more simplified.
There's no reason,as my mom would say, ‘There’s no reason to use a 50 cent word
when a five cent word will do.’

(16:58):
Man, I totally agree with you.
I usually say so, ‘Write
simple enoughthat a five year old can understand you.’
If you can use those types of words.
And I agree with you.
You're not saying anybody is not smart,you're just making it
so it crosses all of the barriers.
You mentioned languages.
You mentioned abilities.

(17:18):
You know, well just learning abilities.
There's just so many waysyou have to use simple words.
If you want to confuse people,then use the fancy words.
Act like plus with timing.
Sorry the dog said hello there.
And with the timing.
I mean we are so busy and we are bombardedwith so much information.

(17:39):
So for this comprehension,
it helps if we simplify it.
So you mentioned something earlier
when you were explaining something, DHSwhat is that?
Because not all of my listenersknow what who or what DHS is.
What is that?
And shame on me for using acronymswithout describing.
That's one of the things I mentioned.
DHS trusted tester.

(18:00):
It's through the Departmentof Homeland Security.
I believe it is.
Okay.
I don't know if, the
Department Of Health and Standards also.
Actually. Yeah.
Hang on.
Let me actually look that up.
What is a DHS trusted tester?Let’s go fact-check it, I love
Yes.

(18:20):
Yep.
Department of Homeland Security,thank you so much.
So DHS trusted tester.Okay.
It is through section 508, which isthe section of the law that it references.
And a lot of people will think of ADA.
And I like to tell people if they say
ADA, just smile and grin,I know their heart is in the right place.
Ada is the physical structures,your wheelchair

(18:41):
ramps, your elevators, your three foot doors.
Whereas section 508 is part of theWCAG your web
content accessibility guidelines.
So it's the online abilitiesmaking sure our eLearning
in what we're talking about, works for everybody.
You know what? It's so funny.
I'm really glad that you're mentioningall this stuff about accessibility

(19:03):
when I work with graphic designers,I said, ‘So you need to make sure
that the font that you use,whether it's in print or online,
that you're paying attentionto, is that color.
Does it work well for print?
Does it work well for online?
They don't always work the same.
If you're choosing a seven or a nine point
font on something that is in print,nobody can read that.

(19:25):
Maybe it looks cute,but it is not legible.
And then let's talk about colorblindand then just, you know, anything else
that's out there.’
Exactly. There are so many.
And I believe I'd have to go back
and look at my notes when I speak on it,but I want to say it is 1 in 12
men are colorblind.
Yes. And so, and it's actually called Color Vision Deficiency CVD

(19:47):
for the technical term.
I remember random trivia,
but then also vision impairmentsI often do have
Some clients are like, ‘Oh, butI don't have anyone that's blind or deaf.’
And I'm like, ‘There'sso much more than that.’
Yeah.
Once you hit the age of 40,our vision starts,
it's the lens is actually on, our eyesstart hardening.

(20:09):
And so in order to use a computer,which we're all using computers, Yeah.
it makes it harder to see.
So there's just so muchthat we need to take into consideration.
And it's good for everybody.
It's just the right thing to do,in my opinion.
I agree, and it's even more than that.
Just think about all the gamesthat are, aside from looking

(20:31):
at everything on a screen, you know,whether it's your phone or your computer,
think about all of the gamesthat people play that are online
and they use red so much, but peoplethat are colorblind don't see red.
They see brown. Exactly.
And that just blends in.
Yeah.
Yeah,it doesn't look nearly as attractive.
So I feel like there - there's this place where people

(20:53):
are not thinkingabout their real end users.
No matter what.
So I love the fact that you have, a very heavy emphasis on people
that are definitelyin need of these services.
And thinking it's not the extreme, it'severything between you and the extreme.
It's exactly right.
And and a lot of people like that,we can't get to that point.

(21:16):
And I'm like, okay, there's three levels.
There's A, AAand AAA, and the, the
section 508 actually even
says don't use AAA in E-learningunless you have a specific need.
So you got to know your audienceand it's that - it's the practice.
It's - it's the attempt.
We don't expect perfection.

(21:37):
We expect progress.
I like that too. That's a wonderful quote.
All right.
So let's talk about somethingthat you received.
You received a lot of accolades recently.
But I found one on LinkedInand it said that your company,
D3 Training Solutions, was recognizedby Training Magazine Network

(21:58):
as one of the 2024 Choice Award winnersin the area of custom development.
Congratulations. But I know,
you were telling me about other things.
Why don't you go ahead and and loadall of that with us now?
I worked on a project,
and when we think ofsome of these projects,
I think sometimes a challenge,we want to get things done quickly.

(22:21):
And this project was over two years, butI was brought in at the consulting stage.
So I was in through the entire thingwith a client of mine.
So what was that company's name?
Innovation Research and Training.
And they are a group of
I think everybody there has their PhD.
They're all research scientists.
So I am not a PhD.

(22:43):
But they are the ones that do a lot
of the research and then publishall of the - this great information.
Well,they had a government grant or something
to create this program or updatethis program called Plan My Ride.
And Plan My Ride is a program for
13 to about 21-22 year olds.

(23:03):
Those that are really kindof just starting to drive.
And rather than, it's not a driver'sed per se, but it is a program
to help them understand the challengesthat they're going to run into
the peer pressure.
And basically putting in some blended safe
driving initiativesis - is really what it is for young adults.
And through that program, we, of coursehad to make sure it was 100% accessible.

(23:27):
We wanted to makeit exciting because 13 to 21
kind of a tough age to appeal to.
So we wanted to make sureit appealed to them.
But we also, of course,
want to make surethat they were learning something from it.
And through that, we actually won the 2023
Learn X Diamond Award out of Australiafor Best Accessibility.

(23:51):
We won the 2024 UKLearning Excellence Award
in Design, Content Creation, and Videobecause we do have videos in there.
We also do Virtual Reality,which I'll mention here in a moment.
And we just recently won or were notified
that we won the 2024 Brandon Hall Bronze

(24:12):
Award for Best Use of Section508 Requirements.
So I am just on cloudnine, for this project
because I was the sole, e-learningdeveloper on it, outside of IRT.
Wow.
Basically, it's - it's a really greatit has,

(24:34):
e-learning modules.
It actually uses virtual reality,
which the big challenge was, how do youmake virtual reality accessible?
And we were able to.How did you do that?
We actually - we create because VR itself
natively is not accessibleand let me clarify,

(24:55):
it depends on how you're definingaccessible
VR in itself is accessible forthose people who may not leave their home.
So it does help in that wayand can make it more accessible.
But for those with, physical impairments,
where they're only using the keyboardor a screen reader, it is not accessible.
You cannot get the Aria coding in the stepbehind it to kind of work.

(25:17):
So we built it.
We put it inside like Tora,which is my preferred one to use
if I'm having to pass DHS Trusted Testerbecause it just makes it easier.
Then I wrapped it with codingand everything behind the scenes,
so where it was invisible to my visuallearners, they could experience the VR,
the accessibility portion,the screen readers.

(25:39):
The tabbing kind of took a different path.
Still went through the experiencesthey were hearing.
‘Oh, you've got these three collegestudents, you're at a party.’
They could hear
the party music in the background,and it would just walk them through.
Okay, here's your choices.
And they still had the multiple choicequestions.
Here's what you get for the pathing
and the branching and it was - it was really fun and exciting,

(25:59):
that we actually got it to work when we,- when we, we thought it would work.
But then when we finally tested it,with a screen reader, it was
I screamed my dogs.
You know, thought something was wrong.
My husband thought something was wrongbecause I screamed so loud.
I was so excited.
You know, I think this will be innovative.
I think that it's really amazing.
I have taken - I work out of a co-working space.

(26:21):
It's called OMG labs and it's a bunch of,
augmented reality, virtual reality,
mixed reality, all of these peoplethat create simulation.
And I keep telling them, I said, ‘You know,we should be partnering up
with instructional designersbecause you create it,
but you don't know how to measure it.
And, you know, measuring the the pretest,the post test

(26:43):
and all of these things,you would have even more experience.’
So I want to talk with you off the airon how we could do some things.
Partnering, in that same space,because that's where I bring in
people, subject
matter experts that could bring more valueto what the game industry is doing.
They create the stufffor people in the military

(27:04):
and they don't haveinstructional designers.
I don't understand that.
And it's - it just kind of - it amazes me too,
because how are theyalso - as a business perspective?
How are they also showing their ROI?
Because the stuff that we do isn't cheap.
So if we can't showthat ROI is a Return On Investment,
if we can't show the differencethat we're making with the pretest

(27:24):
post-test with showing that,
you know, you're having to actit in VR versus in real life,
make some huge
differences, and can just oncewe show that it's easy
to have people sign on for more AR, VRand so forth.
Yeah, and say,‘Oh yeah, let's spend the money on that.’
Yeah,
In fact its cheaper in the long runto do it in AR and VR.

(27:47):
Yeah I would agree with you.
So that's a lot of awards.
Do you,do you go and apply for these yourself.
Because I do thatI'll, I will apply for awards.
I don't always get picked but you knowI still apply and then you know,
I have never had anybodysubmit on my behalf.
I don't know if you have had both.
I think it’s even more meaningful.I-

(28:08):
this was the first time, I have,but again,
the folks that you'll be learningwho own Lichter and CBR,
they reviewed our outline
that,my client originally applied for
actually a couple things,and it didn't go through.
And I was like,well, let's since these are training,
let's - let's me take a look at

(28:29):
and put kind of a training spin on itand speak the training language versus
research scientist.
And so we did and I did send it tosome people that I know
have won previous awards.
And was like, ‘Can you review thisand tell me, am I on the right track even?’
So this is the first timeI've ever applied, and I'm -

(28:49):
yeah, I'm on cloud nine.
I still can’t get over it.You should be. Congratulations.
That's, that's huge, you know,and - and I hope you're putting out So,
press releases on this if they weren'talready put out, I'm pretty sure.
But, you know.I actually just did last week.
Good for you.And some of these are from last year.
That's okay. Doesn't matter.
Still put them out.
I think we were talking about thisthe other day too.

(29:11):
And I went, ‘Do you think it's too lateto send something that was a month ago?’
And I'm going,‘I'm still putting it out there.’
Exactly.
I've updated my signature on my emails.
I haven't updated my LinkedIn.
I need to, you reminded me of that, so.Yeah.
Thank you. Yeah, definitely.
All right, so we're going to come overhere and I have two more questions.

(29:32):
And then we're going to be taking a break.
So what is the name of your book?
You I know you have several e-learningbooks, but, what is it that is the name
of the book that you would likeour listeners to look for on your website?
I think you said it's on your website.It is
there's a couple different,if they go to our
I've got to go to the page,ebooks, videos and blogs.

(29:54):
There - there's four.
Well, there's three ebooks listed and oneregular book.
The regular book is available for Amazon.
But you it's - it's a lecture book.
I - I -I have to plug it I read it with Diane Elkins.
So to kind of give you an ideaof what type of book.
It's a very instructional.
This key does this, this key does thistype of thing.
But the ebooks are freeand probably the one that’s, I get

(30:20):
most asked aboutis the Making E-learning Accessible.
And it just kind of goes step by step.
Reallywhat needs to be done to make sure
and I talk about inclusivity.
some and I do have another book onaccessibility, inclusivity.
But justmaking sure, again, your audience, I mean,
I always say‘We work so hard on our content

(30:41):
to make sure it's the bestthat we can put out there.’
So I would hope
that we would want to make surethat everyone can access it and enjoy it.
Yeah.
And obviously you said they're free,
so making it free is somethingthat's obviously very important. Yes.
So I'm going to make sure we providea link to your website with, you know,
those articles or e-learning books therejust so that people can find them.

(31:04):
Now, my last question before the break is,how do you define impact in this world
where everything is measured?
How would you define it?
To me, impact would be making a pos-
well, hopefully my impactwould be making a positive difference.
How to measure it?
I think sometimes some of that stuffwe won't know.

(31:26):
I try to get them,not to get philosophical,
or indoctrinate my college students,but sometimes idea that you don't know
what difference in the worldyou're going to make.
So hold the door open for people.
Say please, say thank you, smile.
Look people in the eye.
You may never know what differenceyou make to someone, but you could make

(31:49):
a huge different, and differenceand prevent the road rage, prevent this.
And I think if you go throughwith smile on
your face,you're going to get the smiles back.
And so I think that's themeasurable aspect of it, that
people are like, you know, you're happy.
And I was like,I'm surrounded by happy people.
But I think hopefully again,that can spread.

(32:10):
I mean, just like yucky can spread,happy can spread.
I would agree with you.
And because you said simple little thingslike that, like smile.
I know when I walk in a store, I'm like,my mind is focused on something
and I may not, because I'm going,where is this in the store?
And I don't remember.
And then somebody smiles at meand it makes me automatically smile back.

(32:34):
And I sit here, I go, ‘Oh,that was nice.’, you know?
And it also makes a person, feel that they're seen.
Exactly.
And that's so important,especially nowadays.
And I get on to my -this is not only ruined our - our
grammar and punctuationbut so often we see
people do this the whole timeand we never see anyone's face.

(32:55):
And it's like put, and my friends know,if you know, I'm on the phone, I'm like,
I'm walking in the store.
I won't talk in a storeunless I'm like going, ‘Okay, which soup?’
And I make sure it's obvious.
Because there was one time,
it was during Christmas holidaysand I was going to check out,

(33:16):
and I looked at guys like, ‘Hi,how are you doing?’
And he jumped
and I was like, ‘I'm sorry, I didn't mean.’
He's like, ‘No, no, no,
I've been on shift for three hoursand you're the first person
that has said anything to me.’ Wow,
that just broke my heart.
And I was like,
‘I am so sorry for the worldand that people didn't acknowledge you.

(33:38):
But I hope you were doing well,and I appreciate you working
and checking me out.’
And you know,
it can make a difference.
Yeah, it absolutely can. It's cheesy.
But I think it's true. Yeah.
I - there's a show.
It's, just launched.
I don't know which channel it's on,
but we'll say it's somethingthat's being aired on Hulu.

(34:00):
And, Kathy Bates is in it, and she's, she's playing Matlock.
The female version.
Yes. Yes, yes.
She says, ‘You know, there is this placewhere women after a certain age
and we'll call it 50 or 60, whatever,they become invisible to the world.’
And I, I, I have heard that from womenmany times and I go, wow,

(34:24):
that is something that is sobering,that women don't feel that they're seeing.
Because in our world of,everything is digital.
It's on demand,and you can see anything and everything.
I sat there and I went ‘That -
that seems to be true.’
Many timespeople don't see you unless you fall
in a certain generation,and we forget the - what generation is, age.

(34:47):
we'll call it age.
Yeah.Yeah,
she made the comment.
it was over 50and I would agree with that.
Have someone that will be 56 here soon.
It is one of those that - it's sometimes
people joke and it's like, okay, maybethat's why you're so much more outlandish.
It's just
it's the ‘Hey, I'm here.

(35:08):
I'm not ready to
go.’ Well, I do like knitting, but I'm not.
I'm not ready to do just knit.
Yeah. Yeah.
Ah yeah, very true.
Okay, well, we're going to take a momentto acknowledge
our sponsor, Cat 5 Studios,and we will be right back.
The Intern Whisperer is brought to youby Cat 5 Studios, who help you

(35:29):
create games and videos
for your training and marketing needsthat are out of this world.
Visit Cat 5 Studiosfor more information to learn
how Cat 5 Studioscan help your business.
Thank you, Cat 5 Studios.
Now we're back
to the second half of our show,where we always focus on the future of work.
And and just as a reminder,our guest is Chris Paxton McMillan.

(35:49):
We're going to be talking about jobsand industries in 2030.
Now this is 2024.
And it seems like,oh, 2030 is still far away.
Let's 20 - 2024 is almost done.Right around the corner.
2030 doesn't count.
So we're really looking at five, six,seven, eight, nine.
You know, we're talking about five years.
So what do
You think the world is going to look likein the space that we're in?

(36:13):
You and I are in training and learning.
So what do you think it's going to be?
I know a lot of people are scared
with things like AI, I personally enjoythe new technological updates.
I use AI, actually almost daily,especially if I'm doing
promotional artworkor I need a cute phrase or actually used

(36:37):
AI today just even to write a thank you note,which is not, you know, with the work,
but it's like I've done it,
I know I need to write,you know, but it's like, help.
So it's a little, you know,
it's helped me spurred on.
I think we're going to be seeingwhere we can use the tools.
Maybe instead
ah, er, again,I'm really going to date myself now.

(36:59):
In the olden days, we used to go tothe library, needed to use the card catalog,
and you do research, and now, you know,we go to the internet and we do research
and we put policies togetherand we do this.
I think we're going to see the toolsdo a lot of the preliminary work for us
and gather the information, try to maybeput it together in some type of order.

(37:20):
But I think that's where we has IDs.
And as professionals, because no matter
how good the tools are,it's still not quite human.
And so we're going to have to go throughand make sure that it's
speaking at the proper language,that it's not gendering anything,
not aging anything,making sure it's inclusive.

(37:41):
Maybe updating artwork, do a lot
i's probably going to be even almost moreof the proofreading and the editing,
and type of things that, you know,we need humans to do, for verification.
And I'm kind of excited about that.
And I think we'll be able to see more - more of VR in there, more of the AR.
So to bring some of the stuff,because even now it's

(38:03):
really just big companiesthat are still doing a lot of this.
So maybe some of these smaller companieswill kind of catch up,
maybe to where we are now,and be able to incorporate this stuff.
So I'm kind of excited. Yeah.
Five years is not that long agoor not that long ago.
So it's not that far away either. Yeah.

(38:24):
And just as a point of reference,this is 2024.
Covid happened 2020.
So we had 2020 and 2021,which were Covid years.
So there was two years.
Everything changed overnight with, oh,we got to do everything remote, right.
And all the platforms that we usedhad to make overnight,
literally overnight adjustmentso we could figure out

(38:48):
how we're going to work,
how we're going to go to church,
how we're going to go to school,all of these things.
So if it can move that fastbecause of one thing, one thing, and,
you know, think of all of the big, big jumps that have happened in our life.
We've had 911.
We've had all types of catastrophes and,
manmade and, you know, events such as,

(39:12):
like I said, 911 and,
Chernobyland things like that, that impact - Oklahoma city bombing.
Yes, yes, all of these things.
And it becomes like a regular thingthat people are shooting in schools.
This is sad. This is really, really sad.
And this is where we aspeople need to be stopping to
just take a breathand look at how fast life is moving.

(39:35):
Technology makes us like, not slow down.
It's - this I will hold my phone up.
This is a false sense of urgency.
Bingo.
Bingo.
And - and put it down.
Step away.
That's probably one reasonI love it when my family or my aunts,
my aunts, my nieces, nephews are herebecause I put the phone up

(39:58):
when they are here, I'm
spending time with thembecause I know one day
they're not going to want to spend timewith
Aunt Chrissy and Uncle Kevin, and they'rethe only ones that can call me Chrissy. Yeah.
So I need to enjoy that while I can.
Yeah.
What we end up doing is, you know,because we came from generations.
There's these four industrial revolutions,right?

(40:18):
We're on the cusp of the fifth one.
And all of these industrial revolutionshave had something in common.
There's a historic event.
There's a - been a major shiftof something in technology
that has changed usfrom doing one thing to something else.
And you mentioned it actually.
We used to go to a libraryfrom the library.
We had the internet from the internet.
We know we've gone nowinto other ways of doing things

(40:41):
but, you know,googling and all kinds of things. Right.
So it's not any different.
It's just happening faster.
And people are not preparedfor the pace that it's been moving now.
But it's what we created.
We as humans created this.

(41:02):
And Ihope too maybe with some of the technology,
it will help us createsome of the good in the world too.
If we look at technologyhas the ability to where, you know,
I always tell my students,if you can travel, do it, see
how people live, learn thatwe're so much more alike than different.
And if they can't actually go there,then with VR,

(41:27):
they can, they can experience,they can talk to people.
We canwe can talk to, Holocaust survivors.
We can talk to war -
I mean, there'sso many things that they've been doing
where they're filming these people and 360and you can ask people questions
and they’re answering even though they - they're not here anymore.
There's some really neat thingsthat we can do.

(41:49):
And hopefully in doing some of that,we can also hopefully repair the world
and our environment too, a bit.
So yeah, I got to get on my treehugging aspect too.
I totally agree.
Yep. Okay,so you mentioned something earlier.
I foresee there's going to bea lot more independent contractors.
Let's talk about

(42:09):
what is the difference betweenan independent contractor and an employee?
And that's huge.
And I do think we're going to see moreand more that of specialized people who want to
work from home.
They want to set their own schedules,they want to do this stuff and,
just looking at it from a business aspect,that's one of the biggest things
as an independent contractor,my client, my - my clients

(42:32):
can't say, well, you need to be hereMonday through Friday from 8 to 5.
I can set my own schedulenow if they are - part of that also depends
on the type of work
because of the types of the workthis is, I can set my own schedule
if it was, let's say a barber shopand they weren't open 24/7.
Yes, you would have to workwithin the confines of their hours.
But our promise to them

(42:55):
is to get the job donein that timely manner.
And it's based on us
as to what that timeline,what time we want to fill that matter.
Some of the other things would be,
and this is probably
one of the biggest ones that I notice isthat people are like, ‘Well,
will the company provide me a computer?
Will they provide me the software?’
And in most cases, technically,they're not supposed to.

(43:18):
Now, if there are some proprietary issues,it's easier to log on to their network.
I've got one client.
I've got one of their computers,on top of mind with a switch,
and I switch back and forth,
because it's easierto get into their network
to VPN on their network through theircomputer than it is through my computer.
That's a little different.
But if you're just providing content,

(43:41):
then a lot of times,
you know, legally,according to the way the IRS is written,
you're not supposed to treat a contractorlike an employee,
which means you don't get of course,the benefits, you don't get the sick time.
The emails technically
should have the word contractor in them insome way, shape or form.
You don't go to the parties.

(44:02):
They also don't provide your equipment,your software,
your business insurance, your health insurance.
You know, any of that kind of stuffbut it does give you that freedom
to work, to accept the clientsthat you want.
There's been times, as I'm sure you have,that we've had to fire clients
because you just didn't,it wasn't the right fit.

(44:24):
No.And I don't enjoy that.
But I had to do it. Yeah. Me too.
And it's a lot easier to do.
As a contractor than if you just have onejob kind of wrapped around.
So I think we're goingto be seeing more of that.
But I think that'sone of the biggest confusions is people
like, ‘Well,they're going to provide the tools.
I just have to come with my knowledge.’

(44:46):
And it's like, it really alsokind of depends on on your skill level.
And again, going back to the ethics,if they trust you enough,
if they know you've got that skill level,they're more likely to say, ‘Yes, work
whatever you want.’
versus ‘Yeah, I want to see, you know,you've got to provide your own stuff.’
Yeah.
Yeah, totally. Very, very true.

(45:08):
That's something that I have to teach.
Also,you know, you and I are similar spaces.
I work with a lot of studentsthat are interns, and I tell them,
you need to read the contracts that I'vegiven you because you don't understand
maybe what you are.
Being asked to, to waive.

(45:29):
And I think that's important.
So anything that you createis proprietarly mine.
And they don't always know that, youknow, if they don't read the contracts.
So that doesn't meanI owe you royalties or anything.
So whatever you do, it is for me.
And when you are a contractor, you willyour client is going to say, ‘Wwell,
whatever you create, it's for me, it'snot yours.’

(45:51):
Important to know, right?Very important.
And - and to tie that same statementinto our earlier statement with AR and VR.
That's where I would get a caution.
People are just like, ‘Oh, I took theirpolicy and I just put it out in ChatGPT
and had it spit outall these questions for me.’
And I'm like, ‘No, you can't.’
That is proprietaryinformation of the company.

(46:14):
And once you take that step
and put it out on generativeAI that is outside their network. Yep.
You violated all kinds of lawsand intellectual property
rights.Right?
And I - and I don't
there's so much or they're like, ‘Oh, well,I found this picture off the internet,
so I'm just using it’,or, ‘I'm using it for education purposes.’

(46:36):
And it's like, okay, well,

A (46:38):
you’re corporation, you don't have educational rights,
but even colleges really don't have,and schools don't have educational rights.
There's, there's kind of a little.At least cite your source right?
Because I will sit hereand I go, ‘Okay, if I'm
Exactly oh my gosh, yes.going to sit here and do this
I must say a source because then it's not plagiarising.
You're not saying, oh, this is mine.
And you may not get a cease and desistfrom somebody saying.

(46:58):
‘Oh y’know,
think about all those companies out there.’Yeah.
Or maybe you'll only get the ceaseand desist.
Yeah. And that's something more.
Yeah, so completely.Yeah.
There, we - we don't teach that in school,you know like independent contractor.
And it's really somethingthat is desperately needed
as we continue to go into less employee

(47:21):
opportunitiesand being more of a contractor,
because there's going to be a whole lot ofpeople making these mistakes.
Exactly.
And the last thing you want to dois involve your company,
your company in a lawsuit.
Depending on how you're set up,you know, what your business insurance,
a lot of these business - independent contractors,

(47:41):
I don't know if they hadbusiness insurance,
I don't know if their setup, has an LLC.
I don't know how that set up.
And people don't realize,I mean, you could lose your business.
and then if I mess up one of my clientsand they're sued,
they - they're never going to - and they'regoing to throw my name all into the trash.

(48:02):
They may come back and sue meand yeah, I don't - I,
I like having a roof over my head.
And so it's just easier todo the right thing and follow the rules.
Yeah.
Well and make sure you know whatthe rules.
Yeah. Exactly, exactly.
And if you have to and I - it was expensivebut I - if they’re big contracts

(48:23):
I mean - I - because I know a littleand I'll have a family member read over
whose an attorney read over somethingI don't want to take advantage of them.
But when I first got started,and was writing my contracts and doing these
things.
I hired an attorney to do it,and it was expensive.
But again, it's a business expense.
But that way.

(48:44):
And they did some really good, ‘Okay.
here's overalls, here'swhat this step means.’
And so not only do - do that,
I was like, ‘Can you also explain thisbecause I don't get some of this.’
And then also, you know, attend there's
just some really great workshops out therejust on intellectual property,
you know, take advantage of this stepbecause this is our livelihood.

(49:05):
And so many people are using, you know,some of thing - Generative AI I like, I love Adobe's
I completely trust Adobe's AI for images
because I know they're only usingthe content that they own.
So I feel safe in doing thatand releasing it to my customers.
So I like
that you've had some really tangibleexamples

(49:26):
of what people should be doingand that's very, very helpful.
You touched on it previously.
What are the positiveimpact of generative AI?
Well actually not touched on it.You talked about it quite a bit.
Is there anything else that you'd liketo add about the positive impact
on generative AI in the workplace?
In the workplace?

(49:47):
Yeah,I would just think again, it's a tool,
you know, and let's use it as a tooland don't be afraid of it.
I joke with my studentsbecause I'm of the age.
When I was in school, we were taught, I
I'm not a math person.
I joke thatmath is a four letter word for reason,
but because andI, I don't know how to use a calculator.

(50:09):
I mean, if the calculator goes this way,I can use it.
But when you turn the calculator sideways,it gets all the extra stuff on there.
I don't know how to use thatbecause we weren't taught,
because we were told, oh, you'llnever have a calculator with E247.
Yes we do. Yes we do.
I, I think we need to look at it againwith the same with AI and all these tools.

(50:30):
Look at what's the best wayto use it, how else to use it.
There's some really great peoplethat, you know, on the prompts.
I mean, just keep asking it questions.
I have to admit, I'mprobably kind of weird, I tell it
thank you
and please, because I jokingly say,if the robots are going to take over,
I want them toremember I was nice to them.
Oh. That's true though.

(50:52):
It's also - it learns from what we put in.
Well, we hope-So I'm hoping it'll learn that please
and thank you.
Exactly. So,
you know, so I think there'ssome cool ways that we can use it.
We just have to be open to it and aware ofnot just the challenges behind it,
but some of the possibilities.

(51:12):
Yeah.
And not - I know it's scarybecause change is scary.
But it's - it's just even try it- try it once a week for
‘I need a prompt to write a thank you note’, and then handwrite your thank you note.
Right. I've done the same thing.
I ask it here.
Create me an outline on thisand it will provide it to me.
And I can sit there and look at it and go,‘No, that's not really what I was looking.’

(51:36):
Now that could bejust because of the prompt that I gave it.
I use specific wordsor were to clue in on that one.
But we can always remember that, yes,you know, it is here.
It's a tool.
We are the creator, and as the creator,we have a responsibility
to be a good steward with it.
Stewardshipmeans that we're active with it. Yes.

(51:56):
We're paying attention to it.
We're not justpassively on the side going,
‘Oh yes, it's hereand it's going to take my job.’
No, you have a choice.
You always have a choice.
Yeah, it definitely, half the timeit doesn't sound human.
There's a list of words that we publish.
My college publishes that

(52:18):
they're key wordsthat you always find in reports for AI.
And I know if I'm reading alongand I see these words, I'm going to start
looking at a little closer to think,and let the student know ‘You know,
I want you to use AI, butyou don't produce, you don't submit yet.
You know you need to put it in your words.’
I like, I joke that it's kind ofwhen you get those brain farts
and you just need a little,you know, I'm - I'm stuck.

(52:41):
I’m in, I've been a block.
Oh, wait here. I almost - I would say
90% of the time rewrite, probably 90 of it.
Percent.
But it's a great wayto help get us out of that,
that mental block andhopefully help us to be more efficient.
Yeah, Because it's a tool.
Just as a reminder,this is also what I explained to people.

(53:04):
So remember when, you know,the internet came out
and we were using it for searches, it'sthe same thing.
Generative AI does it fasterand it can prepare things
in ways that we didn't,you know, used to be what we did.
So it's providing us informationin a format
that they - that it thinks we want.

(53:25):
It will continue to get smarter.
And it will, you know,there's, I'm going to jump into this.
The creator of AI, Geoffrey Hinton,was interviewed on 60 minutes about AI.
He is called the godfather of AI.
And he said one of the ways in whichthese systems, generative AI, might escape
control is by writing their own computercode to modify themselves, he said.

(53:48):
And that's something we need to seriouslyworry about, he had said.
‘I wish I had never created this.’and he created it.
He was one of the fewthat was back way in the late 50s.
That was over there at, you know, the topIvy League schools on the eastern coast
that was creating computers that createdeverything that we're enjoying now.

(54:10):
So that's like almost,what is that, 60 something years,
68 years ago,I think is what we're talking about.
So if that's the case of, well,it was back there, then it's 60, 65,
70 years later, this is where we are,but it's going faster.
And so that's whyI think people are scared because

(54:31):
it's at the paceand has become more in their face.
Whereas they were afraid of the internet,they were afraid of Google,
they were afraid of everything.
But, you know, you get used to it and yourealize, okay, well, maybe it's not.
Some of it can be challenging.
One of the things I show to my studentsis this
it produced an articleand it cited it and everything,

(54:54):
but the citation was completely made up,but it looked so accurate. And we should
fact check it right?
So we need to look -exactly.That’s what we’re supposed to do.
So fact check.
Double check.
I mean, it's like I tell my students,we've always told you, you don't cite
Wikipedia, but you can go to Wikipedia,look to see where they went
and go to their citations.

(55:15):
You know, it's a tool.
Yeah I agree, I agree.
So, ethical responsibilities.
What else do you think that we should do?
I personally go withwe need to be good stewards.
We need to be involved.
We need to make sure that we're looking atwhat are the organizations
I should belong to.
I'm sure you're
gonna say thoseand you have others, but -

(55:36):
Completely.
I - you know,as far as the ethical to me, it's
I want to leave the worldin a better place than I found it.
And not just the world.
Mom always tell me when I rentedhouses,
‘You leave the house in a better placewhen you move out.’
And so to me,you know, it's - it's definitely,
you know, doing thatit's possibly being a light to others,

(55:57):
you know, in the darkness,we never know what
darkness,what clouds people may be going through.
So to try to do that,
get involved,join things like you mentioned, we met,
there's, you know, a Facebookinstructional developer group.
I helped monitor it because it's ownedby a company out of Greece.

(56:18):
And many of the
participants are here in the USand completely different time zones.
And so it's like, you know, like,I will help add
and make surepeople are doing the right thing.
Do I get paid for it? No.
But am I hopefully making a difference?
Yes. The same is true.
I mean, we met at conferences.We talked about speaking at conferences.

(56:39):
And people are always somethinglike, ‘Well, how much do they pay you to go
speak at these conferences?’, and I'm like,‘Nothing.’
They don't pay us to go speakat these conferences.
In fact, we pay our way there.
We get to attend the conference for free.
But it's - it's one of those it's
it's a hopefully.
When I got started in this field
back in - gosh August,I guess officially it was ‘98.

(57:04):
These terms weren't there.
We didn't have a huge network to fall on.
It was just, you know,who do you know to learn from.
And now there's so much out there.
So ,and some of it's good,and some of it's bad.
And so if we can help those especiallykeep from getting either ripped off
from things or learning the right wayand learning about citations

(57:25):
and learning the legaland ethical ways to do things,
and it just makes our whole communitybetter.
So I'm a big believer in that.
And then again, a lot of my clients,they don't build for accessibility.
Many of them, that I still
am roughlybecause I've been doing it for so long.
After a while you get to be the best efficient.

(57:48):
So even roughly a lot of my stuffis still pretty accessible.
Just because
it's the right thing to do.
Yeah.
And so you've got to be able to livewith yourself at the end of the day.
Yep. Well,we are on our next to last question.
What is the best mentoring advicethat you want to share

(58:09):
with our listeners about the future?
I would say
if you can, join, find out who the
your local community is,
whether it's here in the States,whether it's abroad of developers.
Get to know them, network, ask questions,find ways to do internships.

(58:33):
I, I rememberwhen you told me what you did
and it was like, oh my gosh,an internship would have been amazing.
Find ways to learn from those who know.
It may partially be that you'revolunteering your time, and that's fine.
You're still getting that experience.
It's, back and again,

(58:54):
just - just be aware and listen,
if you can go to conferences,go to conferences.
And if you don't know,
a lot of times through conferences,
depending on where they areand there's big international world
conferences, there's national,there's regional, all kinds of things
that a lot of times, especially the largerones, you can volunteer at some of those

(59:18):
and that one day of volunteeringwill get you a day’s free access pass.
Yeah.
And those are just amazing to learn fromand just absorb.
And even to me almostI love people watching
and - and you go into the coffeeand you hear, oh,
people are talking your termsbecause so many of us and I think
we're going to see more and more,but we do work remotely

(59:40):
and I, I adore my husband to death
that he's
a petroleum and geological engineer.
I don't understandhalf of what he's talking about.
He doesn't understandhalf of what I'm talking about.
So it's great to go to these conferencesor to have conversations like this.
And we're speaking the same language,and it will.
And that's really when my businesskind of took off.

(01:00:02):
Now that I think about it,I had been in business on my own
for probably three years.
I was kind of stagnated.
And then I realized
I wasn't investing back in myself,and I needed to go to a conference.
And once I did that, is when my businessgrew quite exponentially.
I had to, you know,change my business type.

(01:00:25):
But I was excited about the job again,and it was because I was around
other people.
And that - that was huge,especially as we work remotely.
Got it.
Well, how can our listeners contact you?
We put down your website and your LinkedInand of course that link for your ebooks.
But is there anything elsethat you'd like me to add?

(01:00:47):
That is probably the best, LinkedIn.
Depending on the time of year I will.
This is kind of corny, butduring the fall, right when each semester
starts so fall and my spring semester,there's a little time period,
I don't check it because my students,that is part of their homework assignment
is I make them,they set up a LinkedIn account.
They have to learn about businessand networking.

(01:01:09):
And so I'll try to go in.
But if I recognize a name or if they're inthe field, I'll usually accept.
But if it's takes me a little bit,
if it's the beginning of the semester,that may be why.
So but yeah, LinkedIn is agreat way to connect with me.
Very good.
Well I want to thank you againfor being on my show.
I always love it when I bring educators.
But people that are also in the HR spaceand you know, this is the best of both.

(01:01:34):
You know honestly. It really is.
I think everybody, inI love my job.
Yeah it’s HR.But you know they- they are all amazing.
Thank you again.
And I look forward to seeing youat some of the upcoming conferences.
Yes, I can't wait.
So, get a big olehug and see each other in person.
Yes, again.

(01:01:54):
Take care
Chris. Okay.
Thank you. Bye bye.
We want to thank our sponsor,Cat 5 Studios.
And thank you to our video productionand editing team,
Erika Ulman, Gavin Staley and RachelMatthis.
Music is by Sophie Lloyd.
The intern whispers.
Brought to you by Employers 4 Change,helping hiring teams to recruit
and upskilltheir intern talent and employees.

(01:02:15):
Learn more at
www.e4c.tech and become a member to reduce
employer bias and improve company culturethrough head and heart
smart recruiting and learning.
Subscribe to The Intern Whisperer todayand show your support by sharing our show,
tagging a friend, and leaving us comments.

(01:02:36):
You can find The Intern Whisperer podcaston Employers 4 Change YouTube channel
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Thank you so much.

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