October 22, 2024 • 54 mins
In this episode of The Intern Whisperer Podcast, we’re joined by Brooke Avery, a Technical Program Manager at Limble and the founder of the Angular Community Meetup. Brooke’s journey from teaching to software engineering, and later to technical program management, is a true testament to resilience and adaptability. She shares her story of overcoming health challenges, discovering her passion for programming, and finding her place in the tech world.
As an Angular GDE (Google Developer Expert), Brooke has made significant contributions to the Angular community, orchestrating global events and fostering collaboration. She’s also the host of the Dev Life Podcast, where she brings industry experts together to discuss career optimization, the developer experience, and how to balance learning with the rapid pace of technological advancement.
Brooke dives into how she helps developers grow, the importance of building strong communities, and the future of work in the tech industry. We also discuss her legacy aspirations—building individuals and communities and expanding the human side of technology. Brooke gives advice on how to thrive in tech and shares her thoughts on the ethical dilemmas surrounding AI.
Key Takeaways:
- Brooke's inspiring transition from teaching to software engineering to program management.
- Her unique perspective on balancing the demands of rapid tech advancement and maintaining personal well-being.
- Insights into the Angular community and how fostering collaboration can accelerate growth in tech.
- The role of AI in future work and its potential impact on learning and productivity.
Links:
- Meetup: https://angularcommunity.net/home
- Her Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dev-life/id1576779576
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jedibravery/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
So welcome to The Intern Whisperer.
Hi, everyone.
My name is Isabella Johnston,host of The Intern Whisperer podcast,
which is brought to you by Employers 4
Change, helping hiring teamsreduce employer hiring bias
and increase competency,skill, recruitment and learning.
Today's guest is Brooke Avery with Limble,and she is a technical program manager.
(00:32):
She'll tell us more about thatwhen we get to meet her.
She also founded and leadsthe Angular Community meet up out of Utah
and earned the title of Angular JED,
which is a secret code namethat you have to work really hard for.
She's going to tell us about that.
Her background is interesting,and it's because she transitioned
(00:55):
from being a teacherto a software engineer
and then another 180as a technical program manager
and with the Angular community,she also orchestrates global events
and fosters collaborationwithin that same ecosystem.
And let's just pileone more thing on there that she does.
She's amazing.
(01:16):
She is the host of the DevLfe podcast,where industry experts provide
valuable insights on career optimizationand software development trends.
So many big words.
I'm so happy to have you here.
Thank you so much.
I'm, I'm very honored.
Oh, you're amazing.
I went - I remember when I met you,it was at the Google Dev Fest conference.
(01:38):
That was just in October.
And I went,‘Oh my God, here's one of my people.’
We were like, totally geeking outabout HR stuff, onboarding,
mentoring, peer and reverse,mentoring everything.
Teaching, yeah, I remember thatstood out about you as well.
I was teaching, but
I was the same way.
I remember like - looking at the listof everything that you do
(01:58):
and that you have done.
And I was just sort of like,
‘Wow, this is - this is someone to admireand respect, and-’ Aw thank you.
Yeah.Well, same back to you.
Yeah, I feel the same.
So I always kick off my showwith this one question.
Tell us about yourself using five words,and why those five words?
Okay.
(02:18):
So I had to really think about this,but I think
I'm going to go.
I'll tell you the fiveand then I'll explain - explain why.
But I went with Resilient, Empathetic,
Builder, Fun Loving and Individualistic.
Okay. So why are you resilient?
Yeah, I think I'll say that one for lastbut, individualistic.
(02:41):
I've just always beenvery uniquely myself.
I, I don't really fit stereotypes, but
just always been uniquely broke.
So that one,I think fits, well, fun loving.
I've always been a kid at heart.
I think that's what kind of called meinto teaching and education, being able
to work with kids and still have that
(03:04):
childlike element as part of my life.
But I also really love thingslike going to the Disney parks
and just having funand finding that good balance in life.
I'm a builder in a few ways, right?
I, I build
software, but I also build communityand I think I build individuals.
(03:27):
I help them kind of build up who they areand help them to define success.
Very empathetic.
Be a good thing. It can be a bad thing.
But I think I'm really sensitiveto other people, but
I try to really relateto other people as well.
And then resilient.
(03:47):
Lots of challenges, difficult things.
But I always come back, you know,even if there's
some whining and griping along the way,I still try to push through it
and just get to my goals
regardless of what barriers get in my way.
Mmmm. Good stuff.
So I would have said these words, and Itold you I was going to give you my five.
(04:10):
I would have said Teacher,because first off, you know, that's
what you - I know you introduced yourselfwhen I met you then,
but you are that and you really enjoythat aspect of learning yourself.
So self-learner, teacher.
And I think every teacher should besomebody that loves to learn.
Definitely what is said, Creativebecause of the way
(04:31):
you've created a lot of systemsand really encouraging
your people in your company
to - to make it a good culture,
make it a good place,and you allow them to be even still,
the way you describe yourself,individualistic,
they are uniquely themselves,but you know, you encourage that.
(04:54):
So I think that's four - maybe three,I don't know, three or four,
but yeah,and then I would have said Process.
You're a process person
because that's one of the things I went,‘Oh my God, she likes all of these things.’
So yeah, definitely.
Yeah. Thank you.
I appreciate it.
Mm hmm.
So you're welcome too.
(05:16):
So tell us about your personal story.
Where did you go to school to
how did you get to where you are now?
Because that's a very windy roadthat you've had.
It has been, that's for sure.
I've always been someone that's interestedin a lot of different things.
It's - it's been hard for me
to really kind of go, ‘Wait,you mean I have to choose just one thing?’,
(05:37):
So - but I think that's kind ofwhat you're saying.
I love to - I love to learn and teach. So,
but I went to the University of Utah.
I actually earned a Bachelor'sin International Business, of all things.
And was working at a security company
of sorts here in the Salt Lake area,but just wasn't fulfilled.
(06:00):
I, I knew there was something else for me,and so I ended up going back to school
and through a kind of series
of unexpected events, it just sort of it
- it literally fell into my lapthat I needed to go into education.
And this was something likemy mom was a teacher.
Both of her parents were teachers.
(06:21):
So it was kind of that jobthat I had always observed and watched
but resisted because, you know, I didn't - I didn't want to follow
what they had done, which is kind of astupid thing to say now. But
finally just
said, ‘This is, this is for me.’,and went into education,
got a master's degree at WestminsterCollege in Salt Lake City
(06:45):
and went on and started to well,it was a dual program.
I got certified in Adult Education,
but then also K through 12and ended up choosing the K12 path
and started teaching,started in sixth grade,
kind of found my way to third gradeand that was my happy spot.
(07:05):
I really loved working with the kids,just adored, you know, the job.
And like I said earlier, that funloving aspect of teaching,
the creativity, the imagination,
all of it, and just getting to workwith each of those kids.
It was really, it was really magical.
Honestly.
But when I was in grad school, it was
(07:30):
probably the
biggest life changing experienceI've ever had was I just
I went from being totally healthy one day
to within a matter of two weeks,
I had started to have this weird painin my back, the back of my right side,
and then it just sort of likefound its way down to the back of my back.
And then overnightI just remember waking up one day
(07:53):
and just being totally ill,and curled up in a ball.
Absolute pain.
I had no idea what was going on.
I just knew I was not well.
And you know, with any sickness,you just kind of think,
‘Oh, it's going to go away in a few days,just ride it out.’
But it didn't.It didn't go away. And so I ended up
(08:13):
it's beena - about a ten, ten and a half year
journey of finding out I had a Crohn's
disease colitis,
SIBO, which is small
intestinal bacterial overgrowthand trying to find doctors
who could get me answers,finding lots of non answers.
(08:35):
But it's just beena really frustrating journey.
But given that at the beginningof all of that while I was teaching,
didn't have answers, didn't knowwhat was going on, I knew that I couldn't
continue to be on my feet all day longwatching 30 kids.
And it just, it was taking its toll on meand my health was really struggling.
(08:58):
But I also needed a job.
I needed an income,
I needed insurance to be able to payfor all of this medical stuff.
And so I really started investigatingwhat are jobs I could do from home?
And through teaching,I had really become interested
and gotten involvedwith education technology.
(09:20):
And I had been really kindof immersing myself in that.
And because of that, that led me into
- to finding software engineering.
And as soon as I startedplaying around with programing,
it just, it instantlygrabbed my attention and
it was like
another magical moment of sorts, right?
(09:40):
Like I had never really thought of it,never had considered it.
But as soon as I found it, it was like,‘Oh my gosh, how,
how have I, not been doing this?’,and finished out that school year,
stopped teachingand went straight into boot
camp, had no income, I had no insurance,and I was still just trying to ride out
(10:03):
this weird illness,but I had at least gotten enough
hold on that that I could get myselfto school and go to this boot camp and,
you know, kind of get through the days.
And - but at the end of that, I had
- I had met this really amazing softwareengineer.
He came to my boot camp and was oneof the guest speakers at the graduation.
(10:27):
Simmons Kent C. Dodds
and introduced myself to him.
I was a little bit worried at that pointthat a three month boot camp wasn't
going to be enough to really qualify meto be a legitimate software engineer.
So I really wanted to network
and make sure that I was connectingwith people who could help me find a job.
And Kent did just that.
(10:48):
He was so kind and just kind oftook me under his wing for a bit
there, introduced me to a guy herein the Salt Lake Valley
who was starting his own website.
That was he previously, he had been an author or a course instructor at Pluralsight
and he'd
been making, I think he had like 25online courses by that point,
(11:13):
teaching various programing thingsor angular specific
testing, different stuff.
But because of his experienceat Pluralsight,
he wanted to start his own websitekind of to solve this problem
that there is with engineering tutorialswhere
(11:34):
a lot of them just spew information out,
but they don't really help youto acquire the skills.
And so he wanted to create a website whereyou could have a tutorial that did both.
It's teaching you, but you're alsomastering the skills at the same time
rather than just watching and observing.
But he wanted an education expert
(11:57):
who also had some programing experience
who could help train the courseinstructors.
How to make these online courses.
And so that's where Kent connected me with
him, with this guy, as it was Joe Eanes
and it was just this great collaboration.
We instantly connected,started working with him,
(12:21):
and he also owns
and runs a conferencecalled NGCONF.
for Angular - Angular Conference againhere in Salt Lake.
So pairing up with Joe, here
I was now - fresh out of boot camp,
still not great at developing,
(12:41):
but Joe promised to help teach me.
You know, I’d basically be a juniordeveloper for him while I was helping him
run his company and helping him run
NGCONF
little didI know, though, that that was going
to introduce me to all sorts of, I mean -
the website we started this, this online
(13:04):
tutorial company was called Thinkster.io
and I had no ideathat it was going to be
as much work as it was,but it was just the two of us
and it was a startupand so we had to learn really fast
how to market, how to do social media,how to make and edit these videos.
So here I am acquiring all of these otherskills, not so much really developing
(13:26):
my programing skills at that point,but it was okay.
You know, I was, I was engaged.
I was in the right
field learning the right skills,I think, for that time.
And still being ableto use my education background,
but then also
we were putting on these conferencesand that was a big undertaking as well.
(13:47):
And of course there was a team with that,that was not a two man job there.
There were severalpeople involved in that, but
great learning experiencewith that as well.
That went on for about five years.
And one thing that I started to do
at that time too, was at a local onlinemeetup.
(14:08):
Joe had started a local Angular meetupjust here in the Salt Lake area,
and he asked if I could helpgo and run that
in-person and started to help with that
and met a
- who became a really good friend,But he wanted to get involved
in directing the meetupas well his name was Eric Slack,
(14:32):
and westarted running the meetup together,
but it was shortly after thatthat COVID happened
and so we couldn'tmeet in person anymore and
we decided, it was actually Eric's idea.
I have to give him credit for that.
He thought,‘Why don't we just do this online?’
We’ll, we'll take the NGCONF community
(14:52):
and we’ll promote the conference globally.
And so we did.
We took it onand just you know, we were on meetup.com,
but it instantly went from
15 local members to now
we have 6500 membersin this online conference.
And it was just the perfect timingto be doing something online.
(15:16):
But out of that, Ericand I decided to start a podcast as well.
And so that's kind of where the podcast isborn.
But Eric,being such a good and kind-hearted person,
he knew how important it was to methat I was a developer.
And so he also took me under his wingand became a mentor to me.
(15:36):
And we would,we would meet and all virtually.
I mean, this was still during COVID,so we would just meet a few times a week
and he would teach me how to program,
and that's how I learned how to doAngular was - was with Eric. But
yeah, I mean, itwas kind of just all building all at once.
And I know when was it?
(15:58):
About 20-
right after COVID was kind
of ending was when I finally said,‘You know,
what, I'm ready to,I want to just do a full time programing.’
That's what I set out to do.
That's really what I want to focus on.
So Eric and Joe kind of help me to network
and I was able to get my first jobas a programmer from there.
(16:19):
So I did that and I workedat a few companies I've loved.
I loved every minute of it.
And then
at one of our meetup eventsthat a couple of guys,
we often would save time at the endof the meetups where we would say,
If you have job openings or if you're
(16:40):
looking for a job,you know, now it's open to you.
Open Mic.You can go and share the job opportunity
or tell people about who you areif you're looking to be hired.
So these two guys get upand they start talking about this
company here,not too far from where I live in Utah.
It's called Limble.
And it was a start up,
hadn't been around too long,but they really stood out to me.
(17:03):
And so when I startedlooking for a new job,
I just
remembered these two guysand ended up reaching out to them,
told them I was looking for a new job and
just worked out that they were looking for
a, a developer at that time.
And so they brought me on to work atLimble, got hired as a developer,
(17:26):
started doing that, but it didn't taketoo long for them to - to really know.
And my, my direct team lead in particular,
they were kind of like, ‘You know,you've got all these other skills
and we can see you over here,like organizing team activities
and doing these things that are kind oflike helping build the team.’
And so it was really my team leads
(17:49):
suggestion.
He said, ‘Have you ever thoughtabout program management?’ And
‘No, I've
just wanted to be a developerthat's what I set out to do.’
And so he sort of just
he gave me the option.
It was very much,
you know, optional,but we just sort of started
playing around with it like, ‘Well,why don't you do 80% programing and 20%
(18:10):
technical program managementand just dip your toe
in, see if you like it.’, and very quickly,I fell in love with
that as well, because I still get to workwith the software engineers.
I still get to really be involvedwith the programing and the coding,
but I also get to work nowwith the product team, and the design team.
(18:32):
And it's a lot of - it'sjust using everything I've learned.
It, it, it really is such a good balanceof the teaching and the education.
And I'm in chargeof a lot of the upskilling
and the trainingand development on the team.
But then, you know, I stillget to do the technical stuff as well.
(18:53):
So I feel like this is a perfectblend of everything and
there you go.
That's, that's the history of Brooke.
Yeah, that sounds likeit has to be the dream job
because you get a lot of variety.
You're not always having to be focusedon the programing aspects.
At some point, you'll stillprobably continue as you grow, go.
(19:15):
‘I think I want to go and do this.’,and whatever
this can be, and it might be morphingmore out of both sides.
Still even more.
Yeah, it's been exciting.
But you know, one reasonI really love my company because
I've never heard of another company.
Really that's that open to letting someoneexplore their talents
and find how they can makethe biggest impact on the team.
(19:39):
You know, usually you get hiredand that's what you do.
But they really saw that
there was a
potential for something else,and they let me look into that.
So huge gratitude for, for them.
Mmhmm. I think a lot of startups,
they, they are okay with people wearing
(20:00):
multiple hats and switchingwithin a department because it's about
you got to - got to learn fast and lead fastand all of those things.
So I think the younger companies
are, are better to work withfor those reasons.
Yeah.
The bigger the company, the more structurethere is, the more protocols
(20:20):
you have to go through.
And it just not always as much fun. True.
Yeah. Yeah. Just perfect timing.
Yeah. Okay.
So then you jumped into this poolof the Angular Community and podcasting.
I mean, you touched on it a little bit,but let's talk about your podcast.
So why specifically thatand do you see that
(20:43):
your podcast is actually it's,it's morphing into a bit more of like what
your role is now, Because I know thatwhen I read this definition,
I mean this bio of you,it said Dev Life podcast and, you know,
‘Valuable insights on career optimizationand software development trends.’
But is it turning into more orwhat is, what's going on with your podcast?
(21:07):
Yeah, it's- it's more of a good developerexperience podcast.
I'd say at this pointwe didn't really have the words
to describe that at the beginning.
But the more that I've gotten into programmanagement
learned moreabout what all is involved in that.
I think developer experience reallyis the best way to describe the show.
(21:29):
We set out.
I mean, here, you know, here we were.
Like I said, Eric and I metby putting on this meetup together.
And so a lot of what we were seeing was
engineers who
loved the technical stuff,but there was a lot of questions
about career growthand just the everyday stresses of life.
(21:51):
You know,how do I balance all of this learning
that I need to do every, every day changes,with being a developer.
There's always a new technologythat you have to learn,
but how do I do that while having a family
or just managing my day to day life,you know?
Or how do I communicatewith the product team, team members?
And so there wereall these questions that were
(22:14):
technically adjacent, but not technical.
And so it was, it was just an easy
thing for us to see that there was a need
for these kinds of conversationsand discussions,
and especiallybecause there were already podcasts
that were specific to the technical stuff,
but less so with
(22:36):
developer experience.
So yeah, and then the more thatI've gotten into program management,
it's been, the topicsbecome more and more clear to me
what, what's neededand what people are really questioning
and asking about.
So how do you think developer experienceis different
from an employee experience?
(23:00):
Yours is very targeted, so that's why
I'm wondering why is it differentor how is it different?
Yeah, I think a lot of itis that technical aspect.
Programing is,
Oh God, I've never
had a job that is so demanding,
like, like cognitively demanding.
(23:23):
And I feel like there's a lot
there's, there's a lotthat you need to learn in how to, like,
minimize that overwhelmand that cognitive load.
So I think there's some real unique topics
of discussionin that for developer experience.
But then just,
(23:43):
you know, with so many different
technology options and choicesand like I said,
how it's changing every day,
what tech stack do you use?
And if you do
choose a particular tech stack,how do you get people trained in that?
So I mean, there's just,I think it's just the nature of technology
where it's just everevolving, ever changing.
(24:06):
But then the - the unique demandand that it really takes to focus
and really like get through thethe challenges of programing.
I don't know,
there'sjust this need for really figuring out
how do we have good communicationand get into that flow state,
(24:26):
but how do we have good feedback loops?
How do we,like I said, reduce that cognitive load?
So yeah.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
I, I feel that sometimes myself, though.
I mean, I'm not learning programing,but I always feel like, God, every day
I wake up and go, ‘Oh, what happenednow on this app that I'm using?
(24:47):
And how do I fix this?’
I remember when Google first came outand their customer support,
you could call and speak with a human.
You could, you could get anybodyfrom anywhere in the world. Right.
And they were trained so well.
They really,there was not a language barrier.
They understood me and then, really well
(25:08):
- they could solve the problem quickly.
And I've always found that so helpful.
I would still pay for that.They don't have that anymore.
And so for me, when I have to go to Googleand I do have a problem
and I'm going, ‘Well,how am I going to fix this?’
And they're, they send articlesand they'll say, ‘Here, use this.
You know, that'll help you.’
‘You know, you've reached your maximumamount of storage capacity.’
(25:32):
I don't know howand what I should be cleaning out.
This is my problem.True.
This - this causes a lot of fatigue on mebecause I have to sit
here, read the article,see if I can understand it.
Is the article current?
Is it going to be specificto my situation?
Because there are thingsthat are going to be different
from whatthe generic instructions will say.
(25:52):
Is there anybodyI can call to get support?
No, I can request something and say,‘Hey, can I speak with a hurt - person?’
Nobody gets back with me.
So these frustrations,I think, are the same for
just about all of uswith how rapidly technology is moving.
Because I've - I’ve got to figure out somebodythat can tell me within a day
(26:14):
because I'm going to have to pay twiceas much to upgrade
my either my per seat use of it.
You know, everybody that's in my driveusing it versus
what is itthat is so old that I can get rid of?
Right.
And there's no tool in therethat says ‘This is how you get rid of it.’
So I feel like that's a lot ofwhat happens for anybody in development.
(26:37):
They get these kind of problems and go,
‘I don't know,how am I going to fix this problem?’
Right? Yeah.
So that's why I kind of feel like
that employee experience is,we're all in the same boat.
We all have technology
that we're trying to go, ‘Well,what happened today and how do I fix this?’
And is there anybody I can talk toand I can go to?
(26:58):
And no, there's not.
Maybe, maybe, you know,and when you're specialized,
you do have people you can go to.
But, my goodness.Yeah.
It's interestingbecause I had never seen this
until just, I think maybe six months agoit was the first time.
But I was just kind of - I can't even remember why.
So I'm not currently looking to go backto school, but somehow I ended up
(27:21):
finding, I stumbled across this new degreebeing offered at one of the universities
here in Utah, and it's called ExperienceDesign and Management.
And I think it's one of the first onesof its kind, at least that I've seen.
I tried Googling it to see if there wereany other schools offering it.
And it's - it doesn't seem to have reallypicked up yet, but I think it will.
(27:45):
I think a lot of schoolsare probably going to start doing it.
But exactly for that reason, because
I talk about developer experience.
But you're right.
Like I think this is somethingthat is across many industries
and I think it's just becoming moreand more important to have this
experience, design and management, right?
Like, you have to have peoplethat are helping you to have a good
(28:08):
experience withinwhatever career field you've chosen. Hmm.
Yeah, Yeah.
maybe they call it a different name.
It could be. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, we're going to go to a deeperdive question.
When you're looking back at your lifeat this point, where you are right now,
because ten years from now,you're going to feel different.
You're going to have somethingcompletely different.
(28:29):
What do you - what do you believe?
What do you think is somethingthat you're extremely proud of right now
and you hopeit makes an impact on the world?
I think I, I know
that this answer would have been differenteven just three or four years ago.
But the more that I get into my career,
(28:52):
the more I've been involved in my podcastand the meet up,
it's so easy
to get caught up in the day to day
busyness, you know,like we've kind of been talking about
or just the overwhelmof everything you need to learn.
But for meit all comes back to humans and people,
and that's what's at the heartof everything that I do is
(29:17):
people.
And I want my legacy to be onewhere people will say, ‘She helped build
individuals and build communities.’
And I think I'm doing thatin some ways already,
but I want to just keepexpanding that and really
help people to feel and to
know that they're seen and they're heardand they're understood
(29:41):
and kind of build those bridgesover our differences and help people
to see that we have a lot more in commonthan we have different.
So that's kind of whereI'd like to have my legacy be.
You know what, you are exactly right.
No, uh t- his is again,one of the other reasons why.
‘Oh yeah, I really like you.’,because I say the same thing.
(30:03):
You know, everybody,we need to be reminded to be relational
now because we have technologyand it moves so fast and everything,
you know, the falsethe phone gives us a false sense of, ‘Oh,
you have to answer now.
Oh, you should have texted me now.’
There's just this very wrongmindset of now, now, now, now, now.
(30:24):
And that constant pressure,but yet slowing down to remember.
‘Okay, we're human.
It's okay to fail.
It's okay to - that's learning.
We should just equate fail with learning.’
Yeah.
It's important to be relationalno matter what your personality type is.
Because we need humans.
We - there's a place for technology,but we need humans.
(30:45):
And it is important to be heard,to be seen,
and to be able to be a part of something.
So everything that you just said is that,yeah, that's exactly the legacy, I ask
for too. So, yeah -Yeah, Yeah, it’s important.
so that's a good thing too.
Okay, now we're go to something fun.
(31:06):
Favorite cartoon, movie,or game about the future
and why?And I know you pointed to some stuff behind you.
Absolutely.
Yeah. I've got, you can see my lightsabers.
Yes.Got a couple good side.
But all my Star Wars stuff up here, it'skind of my Star Wars area.
But all three of thosethere's - there are Star Wars
(31:27):
cartoons, there's Star Wars gamesand there's Star Wars movies but - and books.
And actually,the books is where I really fell
in love with the Star Wars stories.
I had seen the movies,
but it wasn't until I really startedgetting into the novels.
There are hundreds of these things,and it just it takes the,
(31:49):
you know, the - the original movies
and it goes into all of these sidestories and side characters.
But that's partially why I love them,is because it's
just so comprehensive and so complex.
And every story has differentpeople, different characters,
and yet they all come back to that same
- that same idea of
(32:12):
there is a little bit of badin each of us.
There's a little bit of that dark side
in each of us,but you have the ability to make choices
and even if you're drawnto those dark side
ways, you can choose actively
to stay on the light sideand be the hero of your own story.
And that's kind ofwhat I get out of all of those,
(32:32):
whether it's the video games or the moviesor the books, whatever it is.
I just, I get so
caught up in their,you know, the funness of the stories
and who doesn't like the lightsabers and,you know, the droids and everything.
It's all just fun.
But I love the messages that you reallycan still pull out of those stories, so.
(32:53):
I agree with you, too.
Everything is a choice in life, you know?
And I didn't ever really understand that.
I was telling myself that like,
I don't know, 20 years ago went ‘Wow,everything really is a choice.
And if I make the choice,there's consequences.’
You know, consequencesWe typically hear as well, that's bad.
But there's also rewards thatcome with that.
(33:13):
And that can be joy.
It can be a whole lot of thingsand just personal satisfaction
knowing that while I did the right thing,even if nobody else did.
Yeah.
And kind of just getting out of that,I feel like
a lot of usjust get into that zombie mode of
we kind of go through the day to day,but we don't consciously make
(33:35):
intentional decisions.
And so I think just kind of wakening upthat intentional side to us.
And, and yeah, like we've bothbeen saying, just making those decisions
and not just going through the motions,but being very thoughtful
about what you're doing. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
So we're going to take a momentand acknowledge
our sponsor Cat 5 Studios,and we're going to be right back.
(34:13):
So we're backto the second half of our show.
And it really is.
We've really gone through quitea bit of time, so it's always amazing.
It's a good conversation.
And when we get into thesegood conversations it flies, you know,
So the guest is Brooke Avery,and hopefully you heard It does.
the first half of the show,but you're - you know,
if you didn't, you're tuning in now,you got to go back and listen to it.
(34:35):
This has been an exciting ride.
180 - 180 - 180.
It's like a roller coaster, if you will.
And if you don't understand what I mean
by that, golisten to the beginning of the show.
So, Brooke, what do you think2030 will look like in the world?
And we are honestly like,five years away from that - less.
Right so, that's so weird.
(34:56):
I was kind of thinking about thisand I thought, ‘Okay, well,
what was five years ago?’
And that was COVID.
Yeah, basically 2025.
So in the middle of COVID, everything,right before that,
we were still doinga lot of, a lot of life was in person
and a lot more human interaction.But since then.
(35:17):
You know, so much of what we do is remoteand I think people
are becoming moreand more dependent on technology.
So I think it's going to keep goingin that direction.
But, and this goes along with whatwe were talking about before the break.
I think
a lot of people are really waking upto this, though, that,
like you were saying earlier,life is getting faster and faster.
(35:41):
The more that we're making technologya part of our lives.
I think life is speeding upbecause technology
is making it possible for usto get through things faster and do more.
But it's overwhelming us.
And I think that people are getting in,like, there's
(36:01):
stress, anxiety overload.
I hear more and more peoplewho are ending up
with chronic diseases, Diss-Ease.
If you will,because I think we're just so overworked
and we're constantlyin a state of fight or flight.
And so I think what you're going to seeis things continue doing in that direction
(36:21):
with technology.
But I think people are going to startpushing back on that a little bit more
as well and really reminding
everyone elseto, ‘You know what, disconnect from stuff
go out, be in nature, be be a human being,don't be a robot.’
So I think there's going to be,a kind of a duality going on there.
(36:41):
But yeah, more technology
and yet more emphasison finding balance and
having a healthy lifestyle.
Hmm. I like that, you had honestly,
you've had one of the best answers to thisthat I've heard. A lot of times,
(37:02):
the - the thoughts are
- are more,what would I say, surface level and.
I think that yours has gonequite a bit deeper than the I,
I like the idea of people pushing backand there's a lot of people
that have created apps,even though they're in technology.
It's about, you know, you park your phonein a - in a bag and you leave it
(37:27):
and you don't mess with it at alland you disconnect for a whole weekend.
And you realize at that pointare, ‘Am I sleeping
with my phone, if I'm sleeping with it,there's a problem, right?’
Yeah. For reals.
Yeah. Yeah. So true.
Yeah. People are seeking
solitude and refuge in places
of natureto be able to get disconnected too.
(37:50):
Yeah, I found.
I mean, I told you in the first half there -I have the,
like all these kind of gut issuesand the colitis and the Crohn's.
And the more that I've had to meetwith various doctors,
I've learned a lot of,that is the mental aspect to it
and the more that I disconnect,
(38:10):
the more that I do take care of me.
Like my person,
I have found that my health has improved.
So I find it very interesting.Sure.
Yeah, I am very, very sure I know that
I seem to have more issues with
never used to have this problem,but things
with like my liver and I went,‘Well what is that?’
(38:32):
And that seems to be the,it takes care of everything.
It's kind of like your heart andyour brain, you know, you need the liver.
You absolutely have to have that one.
Yeah.
Well, what do you thinkthe positive aspect of that
AI can have on our future work?
We'll talk about the positiveand then we'll go to things about ethics.
(38:53):
Okay? Yeah.
I think,
you know, and especially I'm kindof considering this from a teacher's
perspective or a learners perspective,but I think that A.I.
really has the abilityto help us to learn new things at a - at a pace
that we've never been able to,to achieve before.
I mean, it's
so exciting to see what teachers are doingwith students in classrooms and how A.I.
(39:17):
is really
making, you know, like virtual field tripsand things so accessible.
So I think learningis really going to accelerate
and I think too, that it from - from like, my perspective,
I think of how it's helped with my joband even just things like organization,
(39:38):
or if I'm trying,if I'm in the middle of a big project
and I'm trying to organize some things,I can just type in some prompts to,
you know, Perplexityor something or ChatGPT.
And it helps me just to organize and sortthrough my thoughts a little bit.
But that's kind of what I like about it,though,
is that it'sand this is why I think that name Copilot
(40:00):
is a really good namebecause I want it to be my copilot.
I still want to be in charge.
I still want to be directingwhat's going on.
But I like having that assistant thereto really help me to be more efficient
and to think more clearlyand to get through my job.
I think with a little bit more confidence.
even. So, all of those things,
(40:20):
learning, kind of building confidence,helping us to be more efficient.
It's a lot to be said for it.
Mm hmm. I - you know what I agree to.
Because many timesand I was an English major
so many times I sit here and go,‘Oh my gosh, I need to go and write something.’
And I'm just going, ‘I can't even thinkabout what I want to say.’
And I've gone and used, you know,any of the AI tools that are out there.
(40:43):
And I'll put in my promptjust like what you said, and
it spits it out,and it's literally 3 seconds.
And I go, ‘Oh.’, and I feel all of thisweight coming off from me.
It's helpful.
But I also know that it was just the toolto help me
get to this place where I can go,‘Oh, now I can customize it.’
Exactly.
Yeah, we just did that.
(41:04):
We had - we have to
every year you have to do a disasterrecovery scenario at your company
and, you know, make sure that the team isreally up to par with - with the standards.
And my direct manager was saying,‘I really want to do something
that's DND, like Dungeons and Dragonsso we can have like a tabletop game.
And that's how we'll do the scenario.’
(41:25):
And I'm not a DND, I know it.
I've played DND,but I'm not like huge into it.
And so I was a little overwhelmedthan I just put in some prompts
into Perplexityand it gave me these great stories and,
you know, things like that.
It just, it takes that,that load off of you and I was able to go
move on and get whatever elseI needed to do done, you know.
(41:48):
So it just really eased up my burdenand made it
so that I can get through my daya lot - a lot more effectively. Mm.
I love that.
So there was - GeoffreyHinton is called the Godfather of AI
and he was on 60 Minutes last year in 2023where - he was,
he was one of the big thought leaders
(42:10):
back in the mid to late fiftiesthat, you know, the top tier Ivy schools,
Ivy League schools and creating A.I.,
creating flying cars, creating everything,
microwaves that we have had some for yearsand some are new.
Right?
And when he was there,I think somebody must have been
following thembecause in 1964, The Jetsons came out.
(42:34):
And that's where we saw all of this stuff.
And I went, ‘This is not a cartoon for children.’
‘This is-’, I mean, yeah, kids will like it.
But this is something that's different it’s what,you know, my older self
now looks at it and sees and I went, ‘Wow.’.You know, it was amazing.
So all of the things that somebodywas dreaming about
back in that latefifties, early sixties is now here.
(42:58):
And - and if it's not here, it's on its wayhere within five years, I'm pretty sure.
So - but his concern was
and he said he is very concerned,he wished he had never created it.
The AI, AI is what he said, becauseone of the ways in which these systems
might escape control is by writingtheir own code to modify themselves.
(43:20):
And that's somethingthat we need to seriously worry about.
Now, for me, I sit here and I do all ofthe wonderful things that it can do, but
chat is createdby people and there are evil people
and they can create bad things with chator any type of A.I.
tool.
The same as, you know, peoplethat are using it to create
(43:43):
simplicity, if we want to call it that,and good things for us.
So what do you think about his -what do you think the ethical dilemmas
might be?
What do you think about what Hinton said,what are your thoughts?
So there's a lot
my - my mind goes to that Tom Cruise movie,that Minority Report,
whereI feel like that's become our reality.
(44:07):
And we’re you know, we're using our eyeballs
to like basically be identified everywherewe are.
And here we are talking abouthow to - how to protect
our websitesand give better security to things.
And so they're talking about getting ridof Two-Step authentication
and instead using things like fingerprintsor your eyeball- Retina.
(44:30):
yeah.
I mean, so like, it is - it'sscary to me where things are going.
I think,
you know, even like identity theftor like national security
and we've got privacyand there's copyrights and
it all - it all really is scary.
I think, and this is kind of a conversationthat we had the other day
(44:52):
where we really need to have some kind of
a better regulation
that - that really is going to monitorwhat's going on here.
Because I do think thatif we do let it keep going,
it is going to implode and we're going tohave big, big, big problems. Yep.
So we do, we need to have those standards.
We need to have requirements.
(45:14):
Or if you're writing software,if you're creating these tools,
what kind of ethic standards have you,
you know, gone through and been qualified?
What have you met?
Possibly background checks, thingslike that.
I mean, we need to have better regulationon all of this rather than just
(45:35):
sort of like throwing it out thereand letting people go and freely create.
And I hate to say that,but at the same time, it's reality.
So that's kind of wherea lot of my thoughts are with that.
But I think also, and this
may be slightly differentthan what you're looking for, but
I again, I go back to my days in teachingand I think of
(45:59):
if we let students
have free reign with AI,
a lot of my best lessons in life
have come from the challenge and from the,
you know, the requirement to really haveto push through and do difficult things.
So if we make it so easy for studentsto be doing things, we're employees.
(46:20):
I think
ethically speaking,
we're doing ourselves a disservice.
We're making things so easythat we're not training people
how to push through difficult thingsand how to solve things on their own
without relying on A.I.to do it all for us.
So I think that there needs to besome kind of
(46:42):
standard on that as well.
And - and really being honest
with doing the work yourselfrather than letting the technology do it.
Mm hmm.
I agree with you, honestly.I really, really do.
And I'm writing a proposalabout something like that
that I'm sending to one of my schoolpartners.
Is that that has been one of my concernsthat students, no matter
(47:06):
how old they are,you know, three to, you know, we'll say 99
people,
we're still humanand we'll want to take an easy road.
They don't necessarily want to be engagedand try and figure
out the problems themselves.
But yet that's how we learn.
We learn from failure.
(47:27):
We learn from trying overand over and over again.
And if we just let something else do it,just do our jobs for us,
then what are we really sayingwe’re - we're actually doing anymore?
I think that rather than regulations,I use the word stewardship
because I feel like it'sat a higher level of responsibility Okay.
(47:50):
than somebody elsedeciding what the regulations are.
You know, we should each be a good stewardof our own knowledge
and be involved with what we are creating
because there's nobody to blame but us.
Right? Yeah, I like that. I think that's
your, yeah,
becauseI think the - the usage of words is important.
(48:14):
So you're right.
Using that - that wordI think is better than, regulations
feels so Imperial. Right?
Yeah.Yeah.
Stewardship. Yep.
Okay, so here we areat the end of the show
Best mentoring advicethat you want to pass on to my listeners.
Yeah. Okay.
(48:34):
I was thinking about this one too.
So this has been a really big partof where I am today.
I mean, here, you know,I started as a teacher,
which I think is a mentor of sorts,and then moving into - to
my meetup where
that's all about peopleteaching and sharing.
(48:56):
So it's mentorships of sorts.
But then alsowhen my friend Eric took me under his wing
and was teaching me, he was my mentor and,
and then at the same time, though,
it's been important for me to turn aroundand do the same.
And so my advicethere is, always try to have a mentor
and be a mentor to someone alwaysso that you're learning from other people,
(49:21):
you're getting your answers
and you know the guidance that you need.
But then you're also ableto turn around and teach someone else
so that because you're - you're essentiallyteaching yourself, right?
We all know that teachingis the best way to learn.
So I think,Exactly.
staying in the middlethere, always having someone
mentor you, you being a mentor,I think that's important.
(49:43):
That said, though, I thinkand this is one reason I really love
the Angular community in particular,because I've never worked with a set of
or a community of people who
are so willing to give and to give freely.
They're just so eager and happyto share and collaborate
without asking for anything in return.
(50:05):
Very rarely do I hear someone when I -
when I organize my eventsor I reach out to potential speakers.
Very rarely have I had an Angulardeveloper say, ‘What's in it for me?’
‘Are you going to pay me?’
‘Are you going to this for me?’
It's always, ‘Yes,I would love to help.’, or, ‘Sorry, I can't.
That day I'm doing this.
Is there another time I can do that?’
(50:26):
But it - it builds a really
strong community and I think it helps.
You know, one one problem with programing,I think has been that it's - it's
there's a bit of a barrier to get inand we need to be better
about bringing juniordevelopers into the industry
(50:47):
successfully, effectively.
And I think that that won't happen as well
if people aren't as willing to just teachand share as we can be.
So it's kind of a shout out to the AngularCommunity on that and their willingness.
But also though I think is
don't let yourself get in in your own way
(51:09):
if you're we're talkingabout being a mentor to someone else.
I hear a lot of people say,‘But I don't have anything to offer.’
That's not true.But you do.
It's not - it's not true at all.
And there's always someone behind you.
Even if you just started today,there's always someone
that will start tomorrowthat knows less than you.
And you can turn around and teach themwhat you learned today. Mhm.
(51:29):
So don't feel like an imposter.
Don't feel like you don'thave something to give because you do.
And the more that you do,your confidence will build
and the more you'll want to giveand then your skills will keep building.
So it just, it comes back to alwaysserve yourself in the end.
That's not necessarilythe reason to do it. But
(51:49):
you know,
I just think, don't let imposter syndromehold you back.
Yeah, I think that one's a solid oneto. I want to tell you.
Thank you so much for all of this
good advice.
Now, how can our listeners contact you?
Normally, I give somebody’sa LinkedIn profile, so I did that.
But what else, would you how elsewould you like people to connect with you?
(52:12):
Yeah, I am.
I'm on LinkedIn, so that's a great place.
I am still somewhat active on
I call it Ex-Twitterso you can find me there.
I'm @JediBravery.
Okay. Now what's that all about?
Because when I go and try and find you onLinkedIn, it is not your name.
It says Jedi Bravery.
So what's that story in?
(52:33):
Jedi just because it's Star Wars?Star Wars.
Yeah, I love that part. But
my my name is - is bravery.
My last name is Avery and Brooke.
Br Avery. Bravery.
Got it. Oh, that's, that’s clever. It’s a
- a nickname that kind of stuck with me, so.
Yeah. Cute. Very cute.
(52:53):
But we also put your podcast up here and the Angular Meetup
group link too so that people can goand check that one out.
Great. Yeah, please do come join us.
Angular community meetup is every month, we meeton the fourth Tuesday of the month.
So.Very nice. Oh, that's tonight.
Okay. But not fourth Tuesday.
Right? We did it. We did it last Tuesday.
(53:15):
Yeah, we did it last Tuesday.
Yeah.
Well, it'sbeen delightful having you, Brooke.
I really have enjoyed this opportunityto get to know you more.
And I see just how much we arevery similar to each other,
and I think that'sa hoot. I love it. Yeah.
Thank you.
I have really enjoyed itand I appreciate the chance to come on.
(53:36):
This is great.
Well, you have a great evening.
And I well, it's evening here for me,but I don't know about you in Utah.
I mean, we're what,
530? Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. All right.
Well, you have a really good evening,and thank you so much.
Thank you.
So welcome to The Intern Whisperer.
Hi, everyone.
My name is Isabella Johnston,host of The Intern Whisperer podcast,
which is brought to you by Employers 4
Change, helping hiring teamsreduce employer hiring bias
and increase competency,skill, recruitment and learning.
Today's guest is Brooke Avery with Limble,and she is a technical program manager.
(00:32):
She'll tell us more about thatwhen we get to meet her.
She also founded and leadsthe Angular Community meet up out of Utah
and earned the title of Angular JED,
which is a secret code namethat you have to work really hard for.
She's going to tell us about that.
Her background is interesting,and it's because she transitioned
(00:55):
from being a teacherto a software engineer
and then another 180as a technical program manager
and with the Angular community,she also orchestrates global events
and fosters collaborationwithin that same ecosystem.
And let's just pileone more thing on there that she does.
She's amazing.
(01:16):
She is the host of the DevLfe podcast,where industry experts provide
valuable insights on career optimizationand software development trends.
So many big words.
I'm so happy to have you here.
Thank you so much.
I'm, I'm very honored.
Oh, you're amazing.
I went - I remember when I met you,it was at the Google Dev Fest conference.
(01:38):
That was just in October.
And I went,‘Oh my God, here's one of my people.’
We were like, totally geeking outabout HR stuff, onboarding,
mentoring, peer and reverse,mentoring everything.
Teaching, yeah, I remember thatstood out about you as well.
I was teaching, but
I was the same way.
I remember like - looking at the listof everything that you do
(01:58):
and that you have done.
And I was just sort of like,
‘Wow, this is - this is someone to admireand respect, and-’ Aw thank you.
Yeah.Well, same back to you.
Yeah, I feel the same.
So I always kick off my showwith this one question.
Tell us about yourself using five words,and why those five words?
Okay.
(02:18):
So I had to really think about this,but I think
I'm going to go.
I'll tell you the fiveand then I'll explain - explain why.
But I went with Resilient, Empathetic,
Builder, Fun Loving and Individualistic.
Okay. So why are you resilient?
Yeah, I think I'll say that one for lastbut, individualistic.
(02:41):
I've just always beenvery uniquely myself.
I, I don't really fit stereotypes, but
just always been uniquely broke.
So that one,I think fits, well, fun loving.
I've always been a kid at heart.
I think that's what kind of called meinto teaching and education, being able
to work with kids and still have that
(03:04):
childlike element as part of my life.
But I also really love thingslike going to the Disney parks
and just having funand finding that good balance in life.
I'm a builder in a few ways, right?
I, I build
software, but I also build communityand I think I build individuals.
(03:27):
I help them kind of build up who they areand help them to define success.
Very empathetic.
Be a good thing. It can be a bad thing.
But I think I'm really sensitiveto other people, but
I try to really relateto other people as well.
And then resilient.
(03:47):
Lots of challenges, difficult things.
But I always come back, you know,even if there's
some whining and griping along the way,I still try to push through it
and just get to my goals
regardless of what barriers get in my way.
Mmmm. Good stuff.
So I would have said these words, and Itold you I was going to give you my five.
(04:10):
I would have said Teacher,because first off, you know, that's
what you - I know you introduced yourselfwhen I met you then,
but you are that and you really enjoythat aspect of learning yourself.
So self-learner, teacher.
And I think every teacher should besomebody that loves to learn.
Definitely what is said, Creativebecause of the way
(04:31):
you've created a lot of systemsand really encouraging
your people in your company
to - to make it a good culture,
make it a good place,and you allow them to be even still,
the way you describe yourself,individualistic,
they are uniquely themselves,but you know, you encourage that.
(04:54):
So I think that's four - maybe three,I don't know, three or four,
but yeah,and then I would have said Process.
You're a process person
because that's one of the things I went,‘Oh my God, she likes all of these things.’
So yeah, definitely.
Yeah. Thank you.
I appreciate it.
Mm hmm.
So you're welcome too.
(05:16):
So tell us about your personal story.
Where did you go to school to
how did you get to where you are now?
Because that's a very windy roadthat you've had.
It has been, that's for sure.
I've always been someone that's interestedin a lot of different things.
It's - it's been hard for me
to really kind of go, ‘Wait,you mean I have to choose just one thing?’,
(05:37):
So - but I think that's kind ofwhat you're saying.
I love to - I love to learn and teach. So,
but I went to the University of Utah.
I actually earned a Bachelor'sin International Business, of all things.
And was working at a security company
of sorts here in the Salt Lake area,but just wasn't fulfilled.
(06:00):
I, I knew there was something else for me,and so I ended up going back to school
and through a kind of series
of unexpected events, it just sort of it
- it literally fell into my lapthat I needed to go into education.
And this was something likemy mom was a teacher.
Both of her parents were teachers.
(06:21):
So it was kind of that jobthat I had always observed and watched
but resisted because, you know, I didn't - I didn't want to follow
what they had done, which is kind of astupid thing to say now. But
finally just
said, ‘This is, this is for me.’,and went into education,
got a master's degree at WestminsterCollege in Salt Lake City
(06:45):
and went on and started to well,it was a dual program.
I got certified in Adult Education,
but then also K through 12and ended up choosing the K12 path
and started teaching,started in sixth grade,
kind of found my way to third gradeand that was my happy spot.
(07:05):
I really loved working with the kids,just adored, you know, the job.
And like I said earlier, that funloving aspect of teaching,
the creativity, the imagination,
all of it, and just getting to workwith each of those kids.
It was really, it was really magical.
Honestly.
But when I was in grad school, it was
(07:30):
probably the
biggest life changing experienceI've ever had was I just
I went from being totally healthy one day
to within a matter of two weeks,
I had started to have this weird painin my back, the back of my right side,
and then it just sort of likefound its way down to the back of my back.
And then overnightI just remember waking up one day
(07:53):
and just being totally ill,and curled up in a ball.
Absolute pain.
I had no idea what was going on.
I just knew I was not well.
And you know, with any sickness,you just kind of think,
‘Oh, it's going to go away in a few days,just ride it out.’
But it didn't.It didn't go away. And so I ended up
(08:13):
it's beena - about a ten, ten and a half year
journey of finding out I had a Crohn's
disease colitis,
SIBO, which is small
intestinal bacterial overgrowthand trying to find doctors
who could get me answers,finding lots of non answers.
(08:35):
But it's just beena really frustrating journey.
But given that at the beginningof all of that while I was teaching,
didn't have answers, didn't knowwhat was going on, I knew that I couldn't
continue to be on my feet all day longwatching 30 kids.
And it just, it was taking its toll on meand my health was really struggling.
(08:58):
But I also needed a job.
I needed an income,
I needed insurance to be able to payfor all of this medical stuff.
And so I really started investigatingwhat are jobs I could do from home?
And through teaching,I had really become interested
and gotten involvedwith education technology.
(09:20):
And I had been really kindof immersing myself in that.
And because of that, that led me into
- to finding software engineering.
And as soon as I startedplaying around with programing,
it just, it instantlygrabbed my attention and
it was like
another magical moment of sorts, right?
(09:40):
Like I had never really thought of it,never had considered it.
But as soon as I found it, it was like,‘Oh my gosh, how,
how have I, not been doing this?’,and finished out that school year,
stopped teachingand went straight into boot
camp, had no income, I had no insurance,and I was still just trying to ride out
(10:03):
this weird illness,but I had at least gotten enough
hold on that that I could get myselfto school and go to this boot camp and,
you know, kind of get through the days.
And - but at the end of that, I had
- I had met this really amazing softwareengineer.
He came to my boot camp and was oneof the guest speakers at the graduation.
(10:27):
Simmons Kent C. Dodds
and introduced myself to him.
I was a little bit worried at that pointthat a three month boot camp wasn't
going to be enough to really qualify meto be a legitimate software engineer.
So I really wanted to network
and make sure that I was connectingwith people who could help me find a job.
And Kent did just that.
(10:48):
He was so kind and just kind oftook me under his wing for a bit
there, introduced me to a guy herein the Salt Lake Valley
who was starting his own website.
That was he previously, he had been an author or a course instructor at Pluralsight
and he'd
been making, I think he had like 25online courses by that point,
(11:13):
teaching various programing thingsor angular specific
testing, different stuff.
But because of his experienceat Pluralsight,
he wanted to start his own websitekind of to solve this problem
that there is with engineering tutorialswhere
(11:34):
a lot of them just spew information out,
but they don't really help youto acquire the skills.
And so he wanted to create a website whereyou could have a tutorial that did both.
It's teaching you, but you're alsomastering the skills at the same time
rather than just watching and observing.
But he wanted an education expert
(11:57):
who also had some programing experience
who could help train the courseinstructors.
How to make these online courses.
And so that's where Kent connected me with
him, with this guy, as it was Joe Eanes
and it was just this great collaboration.
We instantly connected,started working with him,
(12:21):
and he also owns
and runs a conferencecalled NGCONF.
for Angular - Angular Conference againhere in Salt Lake.
So pairing up with Joe, here
I was now - fresh out of boot camp,
still not great at developing,
(12:41):
but Joe promised to help teach me.
You know, I’d basically be a juniordeveloper for him while I was helping him
run his company and helping him run
NGCONF
little didI know, though, that that was going
to introduce me to all sorts of, I mean -
the website we started this, this online
(13:04):
tutorial company was called Thinkster.io
and I had no ideathat it was going to be
as much work as it was,but it was just the two of us
and it was a startupand so we had to learn really fast
how to market, how to do social media,how to make and edit these videos.
So here I am acquiring all of these otherskills, not so much really developing
(13:26):
my programing skills at that point,but it was okay.
You know, I was, I was engaged.
I was in the right
field learning the right skills,I think, for that time.
And still being ableto use my education background,
but then also
we were putting on these conferencesand that was a big undertaking as well.
(13:47):
And of course there was a team with that,that was not a two man job there.
There were severalpeople involved in that, but
great learning experiencewith that as well.
That went on for about five years.
And one thing that I started to do
at that time too, was at a local onlinemeetup.
(14:08):
Joe had started a local Angular meetupjust here in the Salt Lake area,
and he asked if I could helpgo and run that
in-person and started to help with that
and met a
- who became a really good friend,But he wanted to get involved
in directing the meetupas well his name was Eric Slack,
(14:32):
and westarted running the meetup together,
but it was shortly after thatthat COVID happened
and so we couldn'tmeet in person anymore and
we decided, it was actually Eric's idea.
I have to give him credit for that.
He thought,‘Why don't we just do this online?’
We’ll, we'll take the NGCONF community
(14:52):
and we’ll promote the conference globally.
And so we did.
We took it onand just you know, we were on meetup.com,
but it instantly went from
15 local members to now
we have 6500 membersin this online conference.
And it was just the perfect timingto be doing something online.
(15:16):
But out of that, Ericand I decided to start a podcast as well.
And so that's kind of where the podcast isborn.
But Eric,being such a good and kind-hearted person,
he knew how important it was to methat I was a developer.
And so he also took me under his wingand became a mentor to me.
(15:36):
And we would,we would meet and all virtually.
I mean, this was still during COVID,so we would just meet a few times a week
and he would teach me how to program,
and that's how I learned how to doAngular was - was with Eric. But
yeah, I mean, itwas kind of just all building all at once.
And I know when was it?
(15:58):
About 20-
right after COVID was kind
of ending was when I finally said,‘You know,
what, I'm ready to,I want to just do a full time programing.’
That's what I set out to do.
That's really what I want to focus on.
So Eric and Joe kind of help me to network
and I was able to get my first jobas a programmer from there.
(16:19):
So I did that and I workedat a few companies I've loved.
I loved every minute of it.
And then
at one of our meetup eventsthat a couple of guys,
we often would save time at the endof the meetups where we would say,
If you have job openings or if you're
(16:40):
looking for a job,you know, now it's open to you.
Open Mic.You can go and share the job opportunity
or tell people about who you areif you're looking to be hired.
So these two guys get upand they start talking about this
company here,not too far from where I live in Utah.
It's called Limble.
And it was a start up,
hadn't been around too long,but they really stood out to me.
(17:03):
And so when I startedlooking for a new job,
I just
remembered these two guysand ended up reaching out to them,
told them I was looking for a new job and
just worked out that they were looking for
a, a developer at that time.
And so they brought me on to work atLimble, got hired as a developer,
(17:26):
started doing that, but it didn't taketoo long for them to - to really know.
And my, my direct team lead in particular,
they were kind of like, ‘You know,you've got all these other skills
and we can see you over here,like organizing team activities
and doing these things that are kind oflike helping build the team.’
And so it was really my team leads
(17:49):
suggestion.
He said, ‘Have you ever thoughtabout program management?’ And
‘No, I've
just wanted to be a developerthat's what I set out to do.’
And so he sort of just
he gave me the option.
It was very much,
you know, optional,but we just sort of started
playing around with it like, ‘Well,why don't you do 80% programing and 20%
(18:10):
technical program managementand just dip your toe
in, see if you like it.’, and very quickly,I fell in love with
that as well, because I still get to workwith the software engineers.
I still get to really be involvedwith the programing and the coding,
but I also get to work nowwith the product team, and the design team.
(18:32):
And it's a lot of - it'sjust using everything I've learned.
It, it, it really is such a good balanceof the teaching and the education.
And I'm in chargeof a lot of the upskilling
and the trainingand development on the team.
But then, you know, I stillget to do the technical stuff as well.
(18:53):
So I feel like this is a perfectblend of everything and
there you go.
That's, that's the history of Brooke.
Yeah, that sounds likeit has to be the dream job
because you get a lot of variety.
You're not always having to be focusedon the programing aspects.
At some point, you'll stillprobably continue as you grow, go.
(19:15):
‘I think I want to go and do this.’,and whatever
this can be, and it might be morphingmore out of both sides.
Still even more.
Yeah, it's been exciting.
But you know, one reasonI really love my company because
I've never heard of another company.
Really that's that open to letting someoneexplore their talents
and find how they can makethe biggest impact on the team.
(19:39):
You know, usually you get hiredand that's what you do.
But they really saw that
there was a
potential for something else,and they let me look into that.
So huge gratitude for, for them.
Mmhmm. I think a lot of startups,
they, they are okay with people wearing
(20:00):
multiple hats and switchingwithin a department because it's about
you got to - got to learn fast and lead fastand all of those things.
So I think the younger companies
are, are better to work withfor those reasons.
Yeah.
The bigger the company, the more structurethere is, the more protocols
(20:20):
you have to go through.
And it just not always as much fun. True.
Yeah. Yeah. Just perfect timing.
Yeah. Okay.
So then you jumped into this poolof the Angular Community and podcasting.
I mean, you touched on it a little bit,but let's talk about your podcast.
So why specifically thatand do you see that
(20:43):
your podcast is actually it's,it's morphing into a bit more of like what
your role is now, Because I know thatwhen I read this definition,
I mean this bio of you,it said Dev Life podcast and, you know,
‘Valuable insights on career optimizationand software development trends.’
But is it turning into more orwhat is, what's going on with your podcast?
(21:07):
Yeah, it's- it's more of a good developerexperience podcast.
I'd say at this pointwe didn't really have the words
to describe that at the beginning.
But the more that I've gotten into programmanagement
learned moreabout what all is involved in that.
I think developer experience reallyis the best way to describe the show.
(21:29):
We set out.
I mean, here, you know, here we were.
Like I said, Eric and I metby putting on this meetup together.
And so a lot of what we were seeing was
engineers who
loved the technical stuff,but there was a lot of questions
about career growthand just the everyday stresses of life.
(21:51):
You know,how do I balance all of this learning
that I need to do every, every day changes,with being a developer.
There's always a new technologythat you have to learn,
but how do I do that while having a family
or just managing my day to day life,you know?
Or how do I communicatewith the product team, team members?
And so there wereall these questions that were
(22:14):
technically adjacent, but not technical.
And so it was, it was just an easy
thing for us to see that there was a need
for these kinds of conversationsand discussions,
and especiallybecause there were already podcasts
that were specific to the technical stuff,
but less so with
(22:36):
developer experience.
So yeah, and then the more thatI've gotten into program management,
it's been, the topicsbecome more and more clear to me
what, what's neededand what people are really questioning
and asking about.
So how do you think developer experienceis different
from an employee experience?
(23:00):
Yours is very targeted, so that's why
I'm wondering why is it differentor how is it different?
Yeah, I think a lot of itis that technical aspect.
Programing is,
Oh God, I've never
had a job that is so demanding,
like, like cognitively demanding.
(23:23):
And I feel like there's a lot
there's, there's a lotthat you need to learn in how to, like,
minimize that overwhelmand that cognitive load.
So I think there's some real unique topics
of discussionin that for developer experience.
But then just,
(23:43):
you know, with so many different
technology options and choicesand like I said,
how it's changing every day,
what tech stack do you use?
And if you do
choose a particular tech stack,how do you get people trained in that?
So I mean, there's just,I think it's just the nature of technology
where it's just everevolving, ever changing.
(24:06):
But then the - the unique demandand that it really takes to focus
and really like get through thethe challenges of programing.
I don't know,
there'sjust this need for really figuring out
how do we have good communicationand get into that flow state,
(24:26):
but how do we have good feedback loops?
How do we,like I said, reduce that cognitive load?
So yeah.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
I, I feel that sometimes myself, though.
I mean, I'm not learning programing,but I always feel like, God, every day
I wake up and go, ‘Oh, what happenednow on this app that I'm using?
(24:47):
And how do I fix this?’
I remember when Google first came outand their customer support,
you could call and speak with a human.
You could, you could get anybodyfrom anywhere in the world. Right.
And they were trained so well.
They really,there was not a language barrier.
They understood me and then, really well
(25:08):
- they could solve the problem quickly.
And I've always found that so helpful.
I would still pay for that.They don't have that anymore.
And so for me, when I have to go to Googleand I do have a problem
and I'm going, ‘Well,how am I going to fix this?’
And they're, they send articlesand they'll say, ‘Here, use this.
You know, that'll help you.’
‘You know, you've reached your maximumamount of storage capacity.’
(25:32):
I don't know howand what I should be cleaning out.
This is my problem.True.
This - this causes a lot of fatigue on mebecause I have to sit
here, read the article,see if I can understand it.
Is the article current?
Is it going to be specificto my situation?
Because there are thingsthat are going to be different
from whatthe generic instructions will say.
(25:52):
Is there anybodyI can call to get support?
No, I can request something and say,‘Hey, can I speak with a hurt - person?’
Nobody gets back with me.
So these frustrations,I think, are the same for
just about all of uswith how rapidly technology is moving.
Because I've - I’ve got to figure out somebodythat can tell me within a day
(26:14):
because I'm going to have to pay twiceas much to upgrade
my either my per seat use of it.
You know, everybody that's in my driveusing it versus
what is itthat is so old that I can get rid of?
Right.
And there's no tool in therethat says ‘This is how you get rid of it.’
So I feel like that's a lot ofwhat happens for anybody in development.
(26:37):
They get these kind of problems and go,
‘I don't know,how am I going to fix this problem?’
Right? Yeah.
So that's why I kind of feel like
that employee experience is,we're all in the same boat.
We all have technology
that we're trying to go, ‘Well,what happened today and how do I fix this?’
And is there anybody I can talk toand I can go to?
(26:58):
And no, there's not.
Maybe, maybe, you know,and when you're specialized,
you do have people you can go to.
But, my goodness.Yeah.
It's interestingbecause I had never seen this
until just, I think maybe six months agoit was the first time.
But I was just kind of - I can't even remember why.
So I'm not currently looking to go backto school, but somehow I ended up
(27:21):
finding, I stumbled across this new degreebeing offered at one of the universities
here in Utah, and it's called ExperienceDesign and Management.
And I think it's one of the first onesof its kind, at least that I've seen.
I tried Googling it to see if there wereany other schools offering it.
And it's - it doesn't seem to have reallypicked up yet, but I think it will.
(27:45):
I think a lot of schoolsare probably going to start doing it.
But exactly for that reason, because
I talk about developer experience.
But you're right.
Like I think this is somethingthat is across many industries
and I think it's just becoming moreand more important to have this
experience, design and management, right?
Like, you have to have peoplethat are helping you to have a good
(28:08):
experience withinwhatever career field you've chosen. Hmm.
Yeah, Yeah.
maybe they call it a different name.
It could be. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, we're going to go to a deeperdive question.
When you're looking back at your lifeat this point, where you are right now,
because ten years from now,you're going to feel different.
You're going to have somethingcompletely different.
(28:29):
What do you - what do you believe?
What do you think is somethingthat you're extremely proud of right now
and you hopeit makes an impact on the world?
I think I, I know
that this answer would have been differenteven just three or four years ago.
But the more that I get into my career,
(28:52):
the more I've been involved in my podcastand the meet up,
it's so easy
to get caught up in the day to day
busyness, you know,like we've kind of been talking about
or just the overwhelmof everything you need to learn.
But for meit all comes back to humans and people,
and that's what's at the heartof everything that I do is
(29:17):
people.
And I want my legacy to be onewhere people will say, ‘She helped build
individuals and build communities.’
And I think I'm doing thatin some ways already,
but I want to just keepexpanding that and really
help people to feel and to
know that they're seen and they're heardand they're understood
(29:41):
and kind of build those bridgesover our differences and help people
to see that we have a lot more in commonthan we have different.
So that's kind of whereI'd like to have my legacy be.
You know what, you are exactly right.
No, uh t- his is again,one of the other reasons why.
‘Oh yeah, I really like you.’,because I say the same thing.
(30:03):
You know, everybody,we need to be reminded to be relational
now because we have technologyand it moves so fast and everything,
you know, the falsethe phone gives us a false sense of, ‘Oh,
you have to answer now.
Oh, you should have texted me now.’
There's just this very wrongmindset of now, now, now, now, now.
(30:24):
And that constant pressure,but yet slowing down to remember.
‘Okay, we're human.
It's okay to fail.
It's okay to - that's learning.
We should just equate fail with learning.’
Yeah.
It's important to be relationalno matter what your personality type is.
Because we need humans.
We - there's a place for technology,but we need humans.
(30:45):
And it is important to be heard,to be seen,
and to be able to be a part of something.
So everything that you just said is that,yeah, that's exactly the legacy, I ask
for too. So, yeah -Yeah, Yeah, it’s important.
so that's a good thing too.
Okay, now we're go to something fun.
(31:06):
Favorite cartoon, movie,or game about the future
and why?And I know you pointed to some stuff behind you.
Absolutely.
Yeah. I've got, you can see my lightsabers.
Yes.Got a couple good side.
But all my Star Wars stuff up here, it'skind of my Star Wars area.
But all three of thosethere's - there are Star Wars
(31:27):
cartoons, there's Star Wars gamesand there's Star Wars movies but - and books.
And actually,the books is where I really fell
in love with the Star Wars stories.
I had seen the movies,
but it wasn't until I really startedgetting into the novels.
There are hundreds of these things,and it just it takes the,
(31:49):
you know, the - the original movies
and it goes into all of these sidestories and side characters.
But that's partially why I love them,is because it's
just so comprehensive and so complex.
And every story has differentpeople, different characters,
and yet they all come back to that same
- that same idea of
(32:12):
there is a little bit of badin each of us.
There's a little bit of that dark side
in each of us,but you have the ability to make choices
and even if you're drawnto those dark side
ways, you can choose actively
to stay on the light sideand be the hero of your own story.
And that's kind ofwhat I get out of all of those,
(32:32):
whether it's the video games or the moviesor the books, whatever it is.
I just, I get so
caught up in their,you know, the funness of the stories
and who doesn't like the lightsabers and,you know, the droids and everything.
It's all just fun.
But I love the messages that you reallycan still pull out of those stories, so.
(32:53):
I agree with you, too.
Everything is a choice in life, you know?
And I didn't ever really understand that.
I was telling myself that like,
I don't know, 20 years ago went ‘Wow,everything really is a choice.
And if I make the choice,there's consequences.’
You know, consequencesWe typically hear as well, that's bad.
But there's also rewards thatcome with that.
(33:13):
And that can be joy.
It can be a whole lot of thingsand just personal satisfaction
knowing that while I did the right thing,even if nobody else did.
Yeah.
And kind of just getting out of that,I feel like
a lot of usjust get into that zombie mode of
we kind of go through the day to day,but we don't consciously make
(33:35):
intentional decisions.
And so I think just kind of wakening upthat intentional side to us.
And, and yeah, like we've bothbeen saying, just making those decisions
and not just going through the motions,but being very thoughtful
about what you're doing. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
So we're going to take a momentand acknowledge
our sponsor Cat 5 Studios,and we're going to be right back.
(34:13):
So we're backto the second half of our show.
And it really is.
We've really gone through quitea bit of time, so it's always amazing.
It's a good conversation.
And when we get into thesegood conversations it flies, you know,
So the guest is Brooke Avery,and hopefully you heard It does.
the first half of the show,but you're - you know,
if you didn't, you're tuning in now,you got to go back and listen to it.
(34:35):
This has been an exciting ride.
180 - 180 - 180.
It's like a roller coaster, if you will.
And if you don't understand what I mean
by that, golisten to the beginning of the show.
So, Brooke, what do you think2030 will look like in the world?
And we are honestly like,five years away from that - less.
Right so, that's so weird.
(34:56):
I was kind of thinking about thisand I thought, ‘Okay, well,
what was five years ago?’
And that was COVID.
Yeah, basically 2025.
So in the middle of COVID, everything,right before that,
we were still doinga lot of, a lot of life was in person
and a lot more human interaction.But since then.
(35:17):
You know, so much of what we do is remoteand I think people
are becoming moreand more dependent on technology.
So I think it's going to keep goingin that direction.
But, and this goes along with whatwe were talking about before the break.
I think
a lot of people are really waking upto this, though, that,
like you were saying earlier,life is getting faster and faster.
(35:41):
The more that we're making technologya part of our lives.
I think life is speeding upbecause technology
is making it possible for usto get through things faster and do more.
But it's overwhelming us.
And I think that people are getting in,like, there's
(36:01):
stress, anxiety overload.
I hear more and more peoplewho are ending up
with chronic diseases, Diss-Ease.
If you will,because I think we're just so overworked
and we're constantlyin a state of fight or flight.
And so I think what you're going to seeis things continue doing in that direction
(36:21):
with technology.
But I think people are going to startpushing back on that a little bit more
as well and really reminding
everyone elseto, ‘You know what, disconnect from stuff
go out, be in nature, be be a human being,don't be a robot.’
So I think there's going to be,a kind of a duality going on there.
(36:41):
But yeah, more technology
and yet more emphasison finding balance and
having a healthy lifestyle.
Hmm. I like that, you had honestly,
you've had one of the best answers to thisthat I've heard. A lot of times,
(37:02):
the - the thoughts are
- are more,what would I say, surface level and.
I think that yours has gonequite a bit deeper than the I,
I like the idea of people pushing backand there's a lot of people
that have created apps,even though they're in technology.
It's about, you know, you park your phonein a - in a bag and you leave it
(37:27):
and you don't mess with it at alland you disconnect for a whole weekend.
And you realize at that pointare, ‘Am I sleeping
with my phone, if I'm sleeping with it,there's a problem, right?’
Yeah. For reals.
Yeah. Yeah. So true.
Yeah. People are seeking
solitude and refuge in places
of natureto be able to get disconnected too.
(37:50):
Yeah, I found.
I mean, I told you in the first half there -I have the,
like all these kind of gut issuesand the colitis and the Crohn's.
And the more that I've had to meetwith various doctors,
I've learned a lot of,that is the mental aspect to it
and the more that I disconnect,
(38:10):
the more that I do take care of me.
Like my person,
I have found that my health has improved.
So I find it very interesting.Sure.
Yeah, I am very, very sure I know that
I seem to have more issues with
never used to have this problem,but things
with like my liver and I went,‘Well what is that?’
(38:32):
And that seems to be the,it takes care of everything.
It's kind of like your heart andyour brain, you know, you need the liver.
You absolutely have to have that one.
Yeah.
Well, what do you thinkthe positive aspect of that
AI can have on our future work?
We'll talk about the positiveand then we'll go to things about ethics.
(38:53):
Okay? Yeah.
I think,
you know, and especially I'm kindof considering this from a teacher's
perspective or a learners perspective,but I think that A.I.
really has the abilityto help us to learn new things at a - at a pace
that we've never been able to,to achieve before.
I mean, it's
so exciting to see what teachers are doingwith students in classrooms and how A.I.
(39:17):
is really
making, you know, like virtual field tripsand things so accessible.
So I think learningis really going to accelerate
and I think too, that it from - from like, my perspective,
I think of how it's helped with my joband even just things like organization,
(39:38):
or if I'm trying,if I'm in the middle of a big project
and I'm trying to organize some things,I can just type in some prompts to,
you know, Perplexityor something or ChatGPT.
And it helps me just to organize and sortthrough my thoughts a little bit.
But that's kind of what I like about it,though,
is that it'sand this is why I think that name Copilot
(40:00):
is a really good namebecause I want it to be my copilot.
I still want to be in charge.
I still want to be directingwhat's going on.
But I like having that assistant thereto really help me to be more efficient
and to think more clearlyand to get through my job.
I think with a little bit more confidence.
even. So, all of those things,
(40:20):
learning, kind of building confidence,helping us to be more efficient.
It's a lot to be said for it.
Mm hmm. I - you know what I agree to.
Because many timesand I was an English major
so many times I sit here and go,‘Oh my gosh, I need to go and write something.’
And I'm just going, ‘I can't even thinkabout what I want to say.’
And I've gone and used, you know,any of the AI tools that are out there.
(40:43):
And I'll put in my promptjust like what you said, and
it spits it out,and it's literally 3 seconds.
And I go, ‘Oh.’, and I feel all of thisweight coming off from me.
It's helpful.
But I also know that it was just the toolto help me
get to this place where I can go,‘Oh, now I can customize it.’
Exactly.
Yeah, we just did that.
(41:04):
We had - we have to
every year you have to do a disasterrecovery scenario at your company
and, you know, make sure that the team isreally up to par with - with the standards.
And my direct manager was saying,‘I really want to do something
that's DND, like Dungeons and Dragonsso we can have like a tabletop game.
And that's how we'll do the scenario.’
(41:25):
And I'm not a DND, I know it.
I've played DND,but I'm not like huge into it.
And so I was a little overwhelmedthan I just put in some prompts
into Perplexityand it gave me these great stories and,
you know, things like that.
It just, it takes that,that load off of you and I was able to go
move on and get whatever elseI needed to do done, you know.
(41:48):
So it just really eased up my burdenand made it
so that I can get through my daya lot - a lot more effectively. Mm.
I love that.
So there was - GeoffreyHinton is called the Godfather of AI
and he was on 60 Minutes last year in 2023where - he was,
he was one of the big thought leaders
(42:10):
back in the mid to late fiftiesthat, you know, the top tier Ivy schools,
Ivy League schools and creating A.I.,
creating flying cars, creating everything,
microwaves that we have had some for yearsand some are new.
Right?
And when he was there,I think somebody must have been
following thembecause in 1964, The Jetsons came out.
(42:34):
And that's where we saw all of this stuff.
And I went, ‘This is not a cartoon for children.’
‘This is-’, I mean, yeah, kids will like it.
But this is something that's different it’s what,you know, my older self
now looks at it and sees and I went, ‘Wow.’.You know, it was amazing.
So all of the things that somebodywas dreaming about
back in that latefifties, early sixties is now here.
(42:58):
And - and if it's not here, it's on its wayhere within five years, I'm pretty sure.
So - but his concern was
and he said he is very concerned,he wished he had never created it.
The AI, AI is what he said, becauseone of the ways in which these systems
might escape control is by writingtheir own code to modify themselves.
(43:20):
And that's somethingthat we need to seriously worry about.
Now, for me, I sit here and I do all ofthe wonderful things that it can do, but
chat is createdby people and there are evil people
and they can create bad things with chator any type of A.I.
tool.
The same as, you know, peoplethat are using it to create
(43:43):
simplicity, if we want to call it that,and good things for us.
So what do you think about his -what do you think the ethical dilemmas
might be?
What do you think about what Hinton said,what are your thoughts?
So there's a lot
my - my mind goes to that Tom Cruise movie,that Minority Report,
whereI feel like that's become our reality.
(44:07):
And we’re you know, we're using our eyeballs
to like basically be identified everywherewe are.
And here we are talking abouthow to - how to protect
our websitesand give better security to things.
And so they're talking about getting ridof Two-Step authentication
and instead using things like fingerprintsor your eyeball- Retina.
(44:30):
yeah.
I mean, so like, it is - it'sscary to me where things are going.
I think,
you know, even like identity theftor like national security
and we've got privacyand there's copyrights and
it all - it all really is scary.
I think, and this is kind of a conversationthat we had the other day
(44:52):
where we really need to have some kind of
a better regulation
that - that really is going to monitorwhat's going on here.
Because I do think thatif we do let it keep going,
it is going to implode and we're going tohave big, big, big problems. Yep.
So we do, we need to have those standards.
We need to have requirements.
(45:14):
Or if you're writing software,if you're creating these tools,
what kind of ethic standards have you,
you know, gone through and been qualified?
What have you met?
Possibly background checks, thingslike that.
I mean, we need to have better regulationon all of this rather than just
(45:35):
sort of like throwing it out thereand letting people go and freely create.
And I hate to say that,but at the same time, it's reality.
So that's kind of wherea lot of my thoughts are with that.
But I think also, and this
may be slightly differentthan what you're looking for, but
I again, I go back to my days in teachingand I think of
(45:59):
if we let students
have free reign with AI,
a lot of my best lessons in life
have come from the challenge and from the,
you know, the requirement to really haveto push through and do difficult things.
So if we make it so easy for studentsto be doing things, we're employees.
(46:20):
I think
ethically speaking,
we're doing ourselves a disservice.
We're making things so easythat we're not training people
how to push through difficult thingsand how to solve things on their own
without relying on A.I.to do it all for us.
So I think that there needs to besome kind of
(46:42):
standard on that as well.
And - and really being honest
with doing the work yourselfrather than letting the technology do it.
Mm hmm.
I agree with you, honestly.I really, really do.
And I'm writing a proposalabout something like that
that I'm sending to one of my schoolpartners.
Is that that has been one of my concernsthat students, no matter
(47:06):
how old they are,you know, three to, you know, we'll say 99
people,
we're still humanand we'll want to take an easy road.
They don't necessarily want to be engagedand try and figure
out the problems themselves.
But yet that's how we learn.
We learn from failure.
(47:27):
We learn from trying overand over and over again.
And if we just let something else do it,just do our jobs for us,
then what are we really sayingwe’re - we're actually doing anymore?
I think that rather than regulations,I use the word stewardship
because I feel like it'sat a higher level of responsibility Okay.
(47:50):
than somebody elsedeciding what the regulations are.
You know, we should each be a good stewardof our own knowledge
and be involved with what we are creating
because there's nobody to blame but us.
Right? Yeah, I like that. I think that's
your, yeah,
becauseI think the - the usage of words is important.
(48:14):
So you're right.
Using that - that wordI think is better than, regulations
feels so Imperial. Right?
Yeah.Yeah.
Stewardship. Yep.
Okay, so here we areat the end of the show
Best mentoring advicethat you want to pass on to my listeners.
Yeah. Okay.
(48:34):
I was thinking about this one too.
So this has been a really big partof where I am today.
I mean, here, you know,I started as a teacher,
which I think is a mentor of sorts,and then moving into - to
my meetup where
that's all about peopleteaching and sharing.
(48:56):
So it's mentorships of sorts.
But then alsowhen my friend Eric took me under his wing
and was teaching me, he was my mentor and,
and then at the same time, though,
it's been important for me to turn aroundand do the same.
And so my advicethere is, always try to have a mentor
and be a mentor to someone alwaysso that you're learning from other people,
(49:21):
you're getting your answers
and you know the guidance that you need.
But then you're also ableto turn around and teach someone else
so that because you're - you're essentiallyteaching yourself, right?
We all know that teachingis the best way to learn.
So I think,Exactly.
staying in the middlethere, always having someone
mentor you, you being a mentor,I think that's important.
(49:43):
That said, though, I thinkand this is one reason I really love
the Angular community in particular,because I've never worked with a set of
or a community of people who
are so willing to give and to give freely.
They're just so eager and happyto share and collaborate
without asking for anything in return.
(50:05):
Very rarely do I hear someone when I -
when I organize my eventsor I reach out to potential speakers.
Very rarely have I had an Angulardeveloper say, ‘What's in it for me?’
‘Are you going to pay me?’
‘Are you going to this for me?’
It's always, ‘Yes,I would love to help.’, or, ‘Sorry, I can't.
That day I'm doing this.
Is there another time I can do that?’
(50:26):
But it - it builds a really
strong community and I think it helps.
You know, one one problem with programing,I think has been that it's - it's
there's a bit of a barrier to get inand we need to be better
about bringing juniordevelopers into the industry
(50:47):
successfully, effectively.
And I think that that won't happen as well
if people aren't as willing to just teachand share as we can be.
So it's kind of a shout out to the AngularCommunity on that and their willingness.
But also though I think is
don't let yourself get in in your own way
(51:09):
if you're we're talkingabout being a mentor to someone else.
I hear a lot of people say,‘But I don't have anything to offer.’
That's not true.But you do.
It's not - it's not true at all.
And there's always someone behind you.
Even if you just started today,there's always someone
that will start tomorrowthat knows less than you.
And you can turn around and teach themwhat you learned today. Mhm.
(51:29):
So don't feel like an imposter.
Don't feel like you don'thave something to give because you do.
And the more that you do,your confidence will build
and the more you'll want to giveand then your skills will keep building.
So it just, it comes back to alwaysserve yourself in the end.
That's not necessarilythe reason to do it. But
(51:49):
you know,
I just think, don't let imposter syndromehold you back.
Yeah, I think that one's a solid oneto. I want to tell you.
Thank you so much for all of this
good advice.
Now, how can our listeners contact you?
Normally, I give somebody’sa LinkedIn profile, so I did that.
But what else, would you how elsewould you like people to connect with you?
(52:12):
Yeah, I am.
I'm on LinkedIn, so that's a great place.
I am still somewhat active on
I call it Ex-Twitterso you can find me there.
I'm @JediBravery.
Okay. Now what's that all about?
Because when I go and try and find you onLinkedIn, it is not your name.
It says Jedi Bravery.
So what's that story in?
(52:33):
Jedi just because it's Star Wars?Star Wars.
Yeah, I love that part. But
my my name is - is bravery.
My last name is Avery and Brooke.
Br Avery. Bravery.
Got it. Oh, that's, that’s clever. It’s a
- a nickname that kind of stuck with me, so.
Yeah. Cute. Very cute.
(52:53):
But we also put your podcast up here and the Angular Meetup
group link too so that people can goand check that one out.
Great. Yeah, please do come join us.
Angular community meetup is every month, we meeton the fourth Tuesday of the month.
So.Very nice. Oh, that's tonight.
Okay. But not fourth Tuesday.
Right? We did it. We did it last Tuesday.
(53:15):
Yeah, we did it last Tuesday.
Yeah.
Well, it'sbeen delightful having you, Brooke.
I really have enjoyed this opportunityto get to know you more.
And I see just how much we arevery similar to each other,
and I think that'sa hoot. I love it. Yeah.
Thank you.
I have really enjoyed itand I appreciate the chance to come on.
(53:36):
This is great.
Well, you have a great evening.
And I well, it's evening here for me,but I don't know about you in Utah.
I mean, we're what,
530? Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. All right.
Well, you have a really good evening,and thank you so much.
Thank you.
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