October 29, 2024 • 73 mins
In this episode of The Intern Whisperer Podcast, we’re joined by Paige Dansinger, a visionary leader at the intersection of art, technology, and community building. Paige is the founder of the Better World Museum, Horizon Art Museum, and Women in Horizon. She’s a renowned speaker in XR (Extended Reality), with over a decade of pioneering work in virtual reality (VR), augmented reality (AR), artificial intelligence (AI), and community empowerment.
Paige’s journey is nothing short of inspiring. From her early days as an artist to her innovative work in the metaverse, she’s used immersive technology to foster inclusion, resilience, and storytelling in diverse communities. She shares how she transitioned from art school to the world of immersive tech, creating interactive experiences like the Museum Draw project at the Guggenheim and launching the Better World Museum, a space that brought together technology and social impact.
We dive into her current work in Horizon Worlds and how she’s using VR and AR to create spaces for social change, empowerment, and art. Paige talks about the concept of “edible corridors” for future cities, how fashion and wearables are pushing boundaries in virtual worlds, and the role of AI in our lives. She also reflects on how play and creativity can help tackle global challenges like climate change.
This episode is full of incredible insights into how art and technology can come together to create a better, more inclusive world.
Key Takeaways:
- Paige’s innovative approach to blending art and technology in immersive spaces.
- The impact of the Better World Museum and Horizon Art Museum on community empowerment.
- How VR and AR are shaping the future of art, storytelling, and social change.
- Paige’s vision for the future, including sustainable cities and AI’s role in building a better world.
Links:
Website: https://paigedansinger.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paigedansinger/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@metaversepaige
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
So welcome. Hi, everyone. My name is Isabella Johnston, the host of the Interim Whisperer and podcast. And I want to welcome you to our show. It's hosted by Employers for Change. We help hiring teams reduce employer bias and increase competency, skill, recruiting, and learning.
I have a little segment here. I went out of order. So we're doing this show live. So I hope everybody will understand what's going on here. So we're going to play this opening music as I get ready to introduce you to today's guest. And the music's not playing. There we go.
(00:50):
So today's guest is Paige Dansinger. She is the founder of Better World Museum, Horizon Art Museum, and Women in Horizon. She's going to explain all of that to us in a minute. Two of her companies include Metaverse Page, that's with P-A-I-G-E, her name, Productions, and Better World Museum. As a woman in tech, she is a renowned speaker in XR. And if you don't know what that is, we're going to talk about that.
(01:20):
And an immersive tech executive with over a decade of pioneering work and VR AI and community empowerment. She leverages immersive technology to drive inclusion, resilience and storytelling across diverse communities.
And I met her at, gosh, a Women in Tech and Entrepreneur event, the Basel Art exhibit that was happening so many times that we have bumped together. And so now we're going to be able to chat and get to know each other on a much better level. At least I get to know you better. So welcome to the show, Paige.
(01:55):
Isabella, it is a delight and honor to be here on the Intern Whisperer. Thank you for inviting me today. Oh, and thanks for getting the name of my show right. I appreciate it. So tell us about how you got started and ended up now. So most people tend to start with wherever they went to college.
(02:16):
Some may not have gone to college, so they just go right into their first job. But how did you end up in this world of AR, VR, mixed reality? Because most women are not in this industry and not at the caliber where you are. So how did you get started?
Well, I'll start at art school, I guess, right? So I'm an artist. I went to the Minneapolis College of Art and Design for fine arts. And this will date me, but in the early 90s, I was painting, performance,
(02:56):
sculpture. I loved everything. Printmaking, I was in the fine art department, but at that time there was also a computer lab and the computer lab spoke to me. It like called out my name, but I was a little afraid to go in there. I was always painty or had welding soot on me, so I wasn't clean like the other
(03:25):
like the design students in the tech lab so I felt a little bit like an outsider but eventually I did take a computer class and I believe that we worked on Macintoshes or Amigas and it was pretty cool but it was still really out of my
(03:46):
I still felt like an other in that space. I understand what you mean by that. Yeah. So what was that journey like to go from school to where you are now? What else did you do in between that? Well, I lived off grid in Northern New Mexico and off grid living earthship and became very interested in how actually alternate thinking and technologies can help in
(04:16):
in our daily living environments and creating a more harmonic and sustainable life. And really, it broadened me to thinking about how technology can increase our relationship with the earth. From there, I actually, I moved back home to Minnesota and I
(04:44):
My passion is museums. And so I got a master's of art history at the St. Thomas University and worked at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts for almost eight years. I started as a security guard and worked my way up to working for public programs as the art in the park.
(05:13):
an art teacher for almost seven and a half, eight years, as well as worked in volunteering in the registration, assisting the main registrar of collections, and I was a student intern in the architecture, sculpture, and decorative arts department at that time.
(05:36):
I loved it all and was an early adopter in social media and found that
After seven years of standing in the museum, I became convinced that the mobile device now in my pocket may also be, if not a companion, perhaps more superior into creating community impact and educational engagement through mobile devices. Yeah, it's a gateway.
(06:13):
Yes, yes, absolutely. And this was early days, maybe 2010 and 11. And at that time, I was also part of the Minnesota Arduino Club. So as an artist, my own art was already taking a step into interactive art by implementing Arduino sensors and other
(06:40):
uh technologies to create interaction maybe as you walk by different beads or leds would light up on my paintings and i was in love with creating this new technology but what happened and i'll keep this a little short is that i worked together with um uh
(07:06):
a partner from the Illuminati, an immersive dome projection company. And this person, Dr. Clement Shimizu and I created a drawing prototype for me to use as an educational tool with museums. I created a program called Museum Draw in which
(07:30):
I drew probably over 4,000 works of art from museums, and some of them ended up being included in an exhibit at the Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum called Gutai Splendid Playground. I had some of the first ever iPad or mobile device generated
(07:57):
digital art that was on exhibit at the Guggenheim. In this exhibit, the Gutai Manifesto, it's a post-Japanese
art history period that explores their manifesto says do what you've what has never done before. And at that time, drawing on iPads was really new, especially in museums. So Wow, yeah, I'm going to tell you a lot of opportunities to work with people drawing art together in museums and through social media.
(08:37):
Oh my gosh, and you originally started with how it was like a security guard. And I can't think of anything, honestly, there are some things that are more exciting, like going into space, I'll give that. But being able to oversee all of that, I mean, the people that protect that art are amazing. This is a little bit about me. I am a desperate art wannabe.
(09:02):
And even though I was an English major, all of my electives were art and I wasn't very good. And the first class I had was when they threw paper bags on the stage and they said, okay, draw them. And I went, this is ridiculously hard. So I commend anybody that's an artist because I'm a desperate wannabe, but I love everything about art. So I like your background and I know you designed that. What is that all about too?
(09:30):
Ah, this background is a virtual world called Trees. It was presented at Bit Basil during Miami Art Week. And you can see actually wearing a tree. You are. I am. This tree is one of the trees in the world called Infinite Trees. And the concept is about community building and place making in a natural
(10:01):
quote, unquote, virtual world. So one is able to become a steward of a tree or just meet friends and go on a long walk in this treed world. But people who wish to become a steward of the tree have opportunities to customize and become a fundraising spark for climate action.
(10:30):
Hmm, I like that. So what type of tools did you use to create this art? Do you use Maya? What do you use, Blender?
Yes, in fact, I actually created this world during a Zoom meeting, or I started this world. I was in a meeting that sometimes I like to regulate my thoughts or process or strategize by doing a little doodle, just like one would do in maybe a math or history class.
(11:06):
And I drew a tree on my iPad and I uploaded it into Blender and it turned it into an asset and started uploading it into Meta Horizon Worlds before that Zoom meeting was complete.
That has turned into a chronicle or like a journal of my life since mid-summer until currently, where I've been drawing trees. At first, they were summery trees like you see here at the beginning of the world.
(11:43):
But as you walk and follow the stream, they become autumn and then winter. And in the meantime, I went to an AI music video hackathon.
San Francisco, so you can see some redwoods there. I went to Bit Basil, so you see some palm trees and ocean there. It's really like a diary of my life through trees, but I've also incorporated this, when you, there's different tiers to become a steward of a tree, and if you are in
(12:25):
in a legacy tier, you are able to have customization, a bench to sit on, as well as the bird of your choice. And then I draw that bird and create an AI. Using AI, I create the bird song for that. And that's one of the customization features of a legacy tree steward.
(12:54):
I know we're talking about the art side of it, but, and I've gone completely off script here as to what we're going to cover, but I find this fascinating. So I'm sure that you've tied this in to being able to be more experiential in it. How do you try, how would you, because I don't think you're doing this yet, but maybe you are, how do you make it so that somebody feels they're walking through the,
(13:19):
the forest that they can, you know, sense the wind on them and feel like they're walking on leaves. And like, do you have a vision for that? Because I would love going through that. I would love to meet you in this virtual world. Up to 32 people are able to share time there. And there is, there's not wind there yet. I should make some wind where I have leaves falling.
(13:46):
yeah area there needs to be some wind so i'll likely use an ai generator to prompt different wind tones instead of accepting the current offerings of wind
uh audio options because I'm really into AI and if I'm able to generate the audio so there is also um like when you see a butterfly there's like certain sounds that I made also in AI that I prompted uh to create butterfly fluttering sounds or oh wow
(14:27):
So AI is important in the creation of making all of my worlds on different levels, mostly audio and fashion at this time. Oh, that is so cool.
Well, let's talk about virtual reality, because this is fascinating. And my listeners always love it when I have guests that are in the AR, VR, mixed reality, haptics, any of that. They love hearing this. So you've created over 300 metaverse worlds. How do you see the role of VR in shaping the future of art and culture, particularly in terms of community engagement? Because you love museums, I'm pretty sure you're going to tie that in. But I'm guessing maybe you're
(15:16):
Thinking of outside spaces, which is why you're doing trees, I'm not sure. Well, I'd like to share. After I worked at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts, I actually founded my own museum called Better World Museum. It was a brick and mortar museum for over five years downtown Minneapolis in a building smack in the center of the city called the City Center.
(15:41):
And then, when I grew up when I was younger city center was full of cool shops and restaurants, but today it's like headquarters, or at that time when I, I was there in this building from 2014 to 2019, it was.
(16:01):
like corporate headquarters for Target and then close by was US Bank, Wells Fargo, and other corporate headquarters here in Minneapolis. And then outside there were several
homeless shelters. In fact, it seemed like there was an equal amount and then in the middle was Better World Museum, which started out sort of in a small space but then eventually grew into a 8000 square foot space and
(16:33):
Our first project, well, not our first project, but one that exemplifies how I see the role of VR in shaping the future of art and culture, is in creating a shared experience.
that creates agency for the participants and the people in the community. So in Better World Museum there was an indoor edible real garden using technology and augmented reality and sound art and sensors and lights and
(17:09):
we had strawberries and radishes and lettuces growing. And it was a physical space where people from these corporate headquarters and the homeless shelters could create a place. So I would host these workshops, inviting groups from all of these places together to plant seeds or create a garden in some
(17:37):
way together. Well in at Better World Museum we also had at that time one headset was donated to our museum and we used this headset. I drew a flower. I posted it on Twitter at the time as well as Facebook and invited anyone in the world to remix this flower and first one person in Ireland did
(18:02):
and then someone in San Francisco, and someone in Tokyo, and before you knew it, like 200 people had drawn in the VR garden. Well, a couple of years into that and presenting it at TEDx and other places, the
(18:24):
I applied to the Facebook Community Leadership Program. And with their support, I closed our flagship museum space. And I took VR Garden to 10 international cities to draw with students, women's groups, and public people in public spaces. And over 10,000 people drew in the VR Garden in a very short amount of time.
(18:52):
What I believe the future of art and culture can be based on this example is a space where using any tools, whether it's VR, AR, AI, or Metaverse, or Web3, whatever tech tools you have that use them for co-collaborative initiatives that
(19:24):
create more equity, a sense of belonging, dissolve racism, and use climate justice as a foundation. I think that through these foundations, we can build empathy and problem-solving skills that are able to
(19:54):
Dissolve the isolation and feelings of powerlessness over large, large issues of today and be able to have an aspirational world that we all deserve.
I'm going to read what you just said. That's what I see the future. That's amazing. Because I looked at this Facebook community that you just mentioned, and that's a fricking big deal. So congratulations on winning that award. It says, a leadership program provided training, funding, and support to 115 community. Only 115 people. Out of the millions of people, 115 community leaders in 2019.
(20:39):
And those leaders reported that their projects impacted over 1.9 million lives through online community support, the use of helpful resources and other activities made possible by the program. In fact, over 200,000 people came together in person through planned events, safe spaces, and creative experiences. Congratulations. That is a big freaking deal. I understand. They don't have it anymore. It says that they closed it down.
(21:09):
That's correct. But, you know, Meta, and I've never worked for Meta, actually, but I have participated in several programs, including the Oculus Launchpad, and I was a free alpha curator for Horizon Worlds. All of these programs, as well as hackathons, I had to
(21:35):
you know, apply for, and they're all competitive, and it's been an honor to participate in these programs. I would say so. It's very impressive, very impressive. So, my goodness, I know that you did, was it a TED Talk or a TEDx Talk? It was a TEDx Minneapolis, and I didn't do a talk, but an artist installation of the VR Garden.
(22:01):
Yeah, I was a TEDx leader, and I can tell you it's a big deal. Anything to do with TEDx can roll up to a TED experience. I think that you should apply to do a talk, honestly. Thank you. You have that exposure already by having an installation there. You should speak to that in the application. But you also have to have, if you have somebody that nominates you, or you mentioned that this person is endorsing you,
(22:31):
that that means something because you go to the top of the heap of however many people are applying. So, you know, happy to give you a recommendation too. Well, I would be completely honored. Yeah, well, it's a big deal to do it. I'm applying also, but go for it. You already have the accolade that you should be able to do that talk. So, gosh, we talked about Horizon World. I don't think so. I think you touched on.
(23:00):
No, Horizon Art Museum is a completely separate museum. Now, Better World Museum today has closed. What it is, is it's actually in three platforms. It's in Roblox, Rec Room, and Horizon Worlds. They're different in all of them. Roblox, it's a community garden. Rec Room, it's a museum created by and for teens.
(23:26):
And then in Horizon, it's a white wall template museum where artists and residents are invited to upload the template into their own world, now they own it, and they're told to dismantle the museum and make a better world. This aligns with Better World Museum's participation
(23:46):
in a program called Mass Action, which includes over 90 representatives from museums in the United States that use their ability, depending, you know, regardless of their position, they use their abilities for museums as sites for social action.
(24:08):
Now, as Better World Museum is this white wall template museum, we've had three key artists so far create, Angel Artists created a museum for Black women, which has been celebrated by Mark Zuckerberg at South by Southwest, and it completely transformed her career
(24:31):
from being an educator in Brooklyn to working with banks and diverse companies around the world to create metaverse worlds. She also joined me at XR for Good at the Games for Change part of Games for Change's XR for
(24:54):
good conference and shared about her world. We also have had Vijay Franske, who created an incredible world for neurodiversity called Connection Over Competition. And we have had Shea Arts, who is
(25:14):
is an incredible world builder who created a world about positive affirmations and her world and her life and career again has completely changed as her dedication and I mean she's about the best world builder I've ever seen but she was also highlighted by the virtual world society in the last
(25:39):
Nextent issue of their print magazine. Today, Horizon Art Museum is totally different, completely different. That was conceived during the pandemic at a time when over 4,800,000 museum professionals in the world had lost their professions. And my
(26:06):
or their jobs or were furloughed, right? And most of them women and diverse people. And I thought to myself, well, you know, my career was completely impacted as well. But as somebody who's community focused, what can I
do, right? What am I going to do about this? My city was in incredible pain at that time. Minneapolis is the site of the murder of George Floyd. And as a museum professional, I really wanted to look into the metaverse for community building instead of take any community resources that were so critical
(26:54):
at that time and still today for diverse emerging and community initiatives. So Better World Museum on like not even a shoestring also created Horizon Art Museum. Horizon Art Museum is like a recreated
(27:17):
museum of over 35 worlds where you experience recreated art made out of primitive shapes. And most of the galleries are dedicated to women in art history, but we also have sculpture parks and like world heritage sites. But the point of all the museum wandering in these worlds is not even the art. It's all about the plus community voices
(27:46):
buttons next to the art. So next to each work of art is a button, one that's plain and it has like me talking about the art like an art historian would, but then above it is the same button with a plus on it and that plus and that button are created by women and diverse people as they came into Horizon
(28:08):
I would greet them, hi, I'm Paige, and invite them to learn how to make their first interactive button and attach a voice script called our Amplify Voices script. It's simply when player enters trigger, play sound. And using that, that activates their voices to share their stories.
(28:33):
throughout these worlds in the museum. And as you traverse during, I mean, you can visit Palmyra, right? The recreated architectural program that was destroyed by ISIS in 2015 of the third century Palmyra in Syria. But you find these coins, right? Because actually, I'm an art historian, forgive me for snapping into that.
(29:02):
there was a queen called Zenobia, and she had a real coin, right? And so you collect these Queen Zenobia coins throughout the world as you parkour through it, but you hear one person named Bad Chick Studio, who is LaFia Watson, an incredible AR artist, and you press the button on the coins and you hear her message,
(29:30):
that reminds you of your value that you're a queen and to like remember your value so that's one example as you go through the museum there's these plus community voices sharing the voices of women who actually this changed their lives we have one woman who shared her story um of like uh
(29:57):
her her very vulnerable story, and now she is a voice, voice. Let's call like a voiceover artist. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, there's something important about learning how to activate your voice.
with technology, whether any tool that you have. So I have- That's very interesting. I'm trying to learn how to activate my voice with it, so. That's cool. So our next question is about fashion. We have like five minutes for this one. Okay. Because we have so much to talk about. It's gonna overflow. I already know it's gonna overflow. Oh, thank you for letting me share these stories.
(30:43):
Yeah. In the world of fashion, you've worked across multiple artistic mediums. How has your interest in fashion influenced your approach to creating virtual worlds and immersive experiences in the metaverse? And I think you've covered that somewhat because we've talked about the trees behind you. And we also talked about these worlds that you've created where people, you know, communities can come together.
(31:06):
And even with the question of like, can you make wind? Yes, you're going to make the sounds of wind, so it'll be there, or the butterflies. But what would you say that this actually works in the world of, or the industry of fashion?
Yeah, so I'm super inspired by fashion and Bit Basil even had like works by Claire Tattersall and that incredible artist. I really want to quick look up her name. Go ahead, do that. Who has the fashion on the moon. She blows me away.
(31:49):
Let me quick look and that's why I'm like checking stuff when you're talking to. So please feel free because like that's that makes the show even better. Oh, good. I want to make sure that I always. Oh, there's so much knowledge in the world and it's like impossible. I mean, you know, we forget stuff and I know I do. So I think it's it's always technology is here for a purpose. Absolutely. Absolutely.
(32:20):
Except for when you can't find it. Oh, that's okay. Fashion excites me. Fashion excites me. I'm interested in, like, personally, I've been making most of my clothes since I was in high school and college. That's just something that I've really loved to do. It's sort of, as soon as I'm off out of my headset, I go to my sewing machine, but
(32:50):
Making and representing who you are through your avatar and your virtual world, as well as allowing AI to influence you kind of adds like a multiple dimension of who you are and how you choose to
represent yourself. I have always looked like my avatar and my avatar has always looked like me even when I was once in a virtual world and I was an adorable avatar shaped like a watermelon. Somehow our relationship in and out of the metaverse fashion is like
(33:31):
the thread that can help create this unification, if you will. Yeah, really nice synergy for sure. I agree. I agree. Fashion reflects societal trends and shifts.
And then your experience, how do fashion and virtual reality intersect to push the boundaries? Well, I guess we kind of covered it there. To push the boundaries of creativity and storytelling in the digital space. Do you let, when you do these virtual worlds, do people create, I don't know about fashion for myself. I sit here and I know what I like,
(34:13):
And I don't know if I would be able to push the boundaries of what fashion could be. I know that when I watch shows like, you know, the Grammys or the Oscars, I've seen some, an artist, I think this was way out there too. One came in dressed as a swan and that was like all over the place, right? There's a lot of talk, it blew it up, but it blew up that person too, in a good way, I'm sure. And the second one was when they had,
(34:42):
credit cards and they did it with like metal and they made it look like chains. And that was a dress. And I went, wow, that took a lot of creativity to do. I don't know what you think about fashion and how it's pushing industries in the virtual world. So it impacts, you know, even us in the real world.
Yeah, I'll tell you about the most favorite fashion item that I've ever created in the metaverse. It was in a world build collaboration with my friend Tink's Playground. Tink runs the Women in Workrooms group on Tuesdays.
(35:21):
and she and I have actually known each other back to our Minneapolis College of Art and Design days and she's now in the metaverse because she would see my posts and so got a headset but sometimes we like to like hop in a world and build together so we created a world called spring into space and we both created like a
(35:47):
We each created a fashion ensemble that we would have models or ourselves wear in the show and she created the most beautiful like multi-dimensional outfits
But I created one that is very much like me. I created a dress that is inspired by a black hole, a solar flare, and like a neutron. And one of them is the Milky Way. And that's my favorite dress in the world. So the Milky Way, it doesn't look like a dress at all. It just attaches to my avatar.
(36:30):
as a wearable. It doesn't look like something I can go shopping or drive or go on a walk in real life in, but it's this giant Milky Way that has some like stars sparking out of it as particle effects and all you really see is my face.
(36:52):
when I'm wearing it, kind of right up here where I know there's a black hole in the Milky Way. And I love wearing that thing.
It's maybe when I feel like my true self, but in all of these worlds, and there are the possibility of being able to customize your avatar with an AI like prompt in
(37:23):
the Horizon Worlds app. That's not something that I created, but all of my worlds, I have like a top that I created for. But in a lot of my worlds, I created my own wearables, but they're attached and part of like games. For instance, in the Sculpture Park, there's a game called Convince the Critic. And so there's all these wearables that are like props that you might wear in the gameplay.
(37:53):
I've googled your name and a lot of these keywords and I can see what you're talking about. Fantastic, thank you. Yeah, it's really, it's really fun. It looks fun.
I love using technology for play, and play is part of creating a better world. My focus is in aspirational concepts of sustainability, but play and wearables and games are a really important part of
(38:30):
of participating. We have a crisis in our world, I would say, multiple crises, and they're big, they're giant, and what happens is they're too overwhelming and we have inertia, right? It's hard to take on climate or
(38:55):
Right. So big problems, big problems, really big problems. And so when we're able to create games and initiatives that dissolve isolation and feelings of powerlessness, then we have the opportunity to come together better for problem solving. Oh, that's really cool. We're going to take a moment
(39:21):
to acknowledge our sponsor Cat5 Studios. So hold on and you'll learn more about what Cat5 does here. I think we're live.
(39:50):
All right, so we're back to the second half of our show and then the second half we're going to be talking about other things that are about the future, this is page Dan singer who's with me.
And she's in Minnesota, so it's super cold up there. So thank you for being somebody that lives there, as I'm in Florida where it's still 48. What do you think 2030 is going to look like in the world, in the industries? We've talked about fashion. We've talked about, honestly, creativity.
(40:21):
And I'm going to add on to something that you were just talking about when you were addressing play. I think that that's important because we have to really create more areas
where in the workplace where that type of creativity is released because we're letting people play. They've tried to do it with like ping pong tables and things like that. But I think that the most amount of play is, I teach Sunday school to three-year-olds and I love it because I get to play with them. And their perspective is what's unique. And I think in the workplace, it's not quite the same because we've already been,
(41:04):
processed by growing up through whatever industries and schools and things that have touched our lives, where it shapes how we are supposed to act. So I think that those little voices in our head keep us from being what we could be. So let's include play in this conversation about the future. What does it look like 2030? Five years, that's a drop in the bucket.
(41:32):
By the time we hit 2030, we've already lost four years and not lost, we, you know, four years have passed. So what would it, what do you think it's going to look like? I have opinions, but I really want to hear yours because you are somebody that is progressive and truly in that thought leader space as to how and what it can be.
(41:54):
Well, I really believe, and I'm going to maybe give you a brighter vision than is promoted in our media and pop culture, because I really believe we have the possibility of creating the future that not only we want, but we deserve. And it would look like this.
(42:17):
cities, edible corridors, using technology, Internet of Things, that were completely connected to buildings, bridges, and our infrastructure as not only a vehicle for public art, but also as complete warning systems for climate impacts.
(42:41):
You say edible corridors. What do you mean by that? And I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I could tell you were going to go there and I was going, I don't know what she means by that. Okay, I kind of started in hard, to be honest with you. Yeah, that's good though. Bring it in. Listen.
So cities, they're often not walkable, and they're not sustainable habitat spaces. If there is a calamity or a breakdown in our society based on a weather or political or social event, a lot of people don't have food. There's already food scarcity. And I see public spaces that are
(43:28):
laid out as potentially perfect spaces for generating edible habitats with vegetables and herbs and flowers that are medicinal and edible. We are able to use our green spaces, our roofs,
(43:53):
are like urban infrastructure as spaces for creating urban edible gardens that are not necessarily gated but open for public consumption and participation. And I'm not talking just on the pretty boulevard where in downtown you might
(44:14):
hang winter holiday lights. I'm talking about throughout a city, parks, corridors, and alleyways that where the people who would be impacted by climate or calamity need food the most.
(44:37):
I don't know if like we've all seen the price of eggs right we have not only food scarcity, but in a reliance on food industry that isn't.
sustainable for the future and so I see future cities and maybe that's one of my passions of course I shared about Better World Museum and maybe even where I host and harbor my vulnerabilities I'm always worried well what am I going to eat if there's a
(45:17):
x, y, z, right? So in the end, we're all humans. I also see us being able to use our technologies not only to protect our water tables, but invoke new generations to also be water protectors and carers. So really a higher concern over our natural and human
(45:45):
like necessities. And I'd like to see all of our emergent converging technologies from autonomous vehicles and robotics, AI augmented and VR, and an AI
converge in a way that's actually creating like this vision of sustainable life. And we can do it. We can totally do this. Not only that is that we can use technology to
(46:19):
create like ceasing wars, right? How could we use gameplay and games and healing modalities to heal from multi-generations of like location-based generation political or religious wars? So creating a more
(46:43):
more empathy with each other, cities that are harmonic spaces for sustainability, and technologies that not only
help with our whole being of wellness as individuals, but way that foster fashion. Imagine my shirt is a plaid shirt, right? And every one of my friends is a different, like maybe I have eight friends and each one of them is assigned a color. Well, every time one of those,
(47:21):
those friends are nearby, maybe the threads in my shirt can become reactive. And then the buildings around me may have soft architecture features that are also responsive and harmonized with my emotions and state of community and independent individual being. So I put in the chat, and I'm going to put this in the show notes,
(47:46):
something that's the future of dot, dot, dot, and it's on Netflix. And as we've had this deeper conversation than we did before we started, a lot of your vision, you really need to talk with them. If you can get to Netflix, you should. Because they addressed, not only would we have botanists that are taking care of our homes, because we don't have the need for being in concrete as much. We would have plants that are housing and strengthening our buildings.
(48:16):
We would have food, literally walk outside and you just pick from your own food. Instead of having three, we could have 3D printed food, but we could also have our own garden in our own home. And they talked about having even grass, although I'm not so sure how I would handle ants.
There's that. But, you know, grass would be in our home. So there's definitely more of an eco environment. Then they also address the fashion and how you would just go and say, I want to wear this today. You would draw it and your 3D printer would print out your fashion just like this. And you would be able to wear something like that. So I feel like your vision is something that is out there and your voice needs to be a part of that conversation.
(49:01):
because you said some other things that were not in that show, but for our listeners, it's the future of dot, dot, dot, and it's on Netflix. I get nothing for just shouting that one out, to be clear. I'm excited to check out the movie. I'm always inspired by like pop culture, but as well as the voice of the people.
(49:26):
These technologies are really about that for me. They're about creating the world we deserve, right? And it has to be done of, by, and for the people. Well, they're talking about putting another series out that follows it, and they bring in industry experts. So you should definitely reach out to, Netflix is the one that produced it, but reach out and tell them who you are because it could get you on Netflix.
(49:55):
Okay, we can share this podcast with them. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But you have all of the credentials to the pedigree that allows for that to be super impressive and be a part of that conversation. So what do you think the positive impact can be from either robots or AI? I know we've talked about virtual and augmented reality, but you can add those as a part of the conversation.
(50:24):
in the future of work. Now, we're talking about work. I've seen robots. We already know that a long time ago, we got the little robot that could vacuum for us. But now robots can do so many things, so many things, from being a pet. One can actually just be the pet. And then they can also bring things to you. They can cook your food. They can do just about anything. It's not rosy like in the Jetsons. We're way past that one. And then we have AI.
(50:53):
And there's been, we've talked about that, the concerns about AI for sure, but augmented reality, virtual reality. Do you see one of our members down here at OMG Labs? He uses a VR workout every morning and he has lost so much weight. And I don't know what his body mass index is, but I'm pretty sure he's like a 10% because he is also very highly dialed into what he eats. So between that and using,
(51:22):
people that may think virtual reality is not like a real work at it, it is. I mean, he's tremendously changed his whole body composition.
Absolutely. I work out or try to work out more regularly in VR. I've been doing this for years, really since the beginning of the pandemic. But even before that, I was leading and hosting workshops at Better World Museum that was incorporating VR and yoga.
(51:53):
So I think that there's a real important part, not only for our brains, which we talk about a lot, right, how we're recreating neural networks and connections and increasing our neuroplasticity, but we're also changing how we feel in our gut and in our heart and in our
(52:16):
In the way we move and navigate in virtual worlds, and in our bodies, and that can only translate into how we move through non virtual worlds, right, so the health and the.
Like what happens in virtual worlds does not stay in virtual worlds. It's in our bodies. It's in our hearts and it's in our brains and in our homes and communities. I like that. What happens in a virtual world can stay with us because, you know, I've seen what is the movie avatar? And they took somebody who was a paraplegic.
(53:00):
And he couldn't walk, but they laid him inside of the chamber so that he could experience what it would be like to be an avatar. So he's not even himself, but in there he can do anything and everything. But he also is experiencing the world of what we talk about here, that everything has life. Everything has feelings and it has reactions. And we as humans don't always understand that. Because there was a time when animals were thought, oh no, that's just a reaction to pain.
(53:30):
They don't feel pain, but yes, they do feel pain. If you kick your dog, your dog is going to know, even psychologically, oh, that person is going to hurt me, and they get away from it. That's not just a reaction to pain. That is awareness. That is so much more. So it seems like we've gone off base, but we really haven't. When we're talking about the future of work, what can that be?
(53:55):
you know, whether it's robots, let's touch on robots, because I think that one's an interesting conversation, too. Robots can can bring in your food, they can in a restaurant, they can leave, they can come in and, you know, clean your house. They make them look very humanistic now. And, you know, Elon made robots that were very futuristic looking. I don't know. What are all of your thoughts about robots?
(54:20):
Well, I'm super excited by robots and always have been. At Better World Museum, we actually developed a robotic prototype in 2018 and 19, a concept that I hope to actualize. And it's a museum engagement robot. And it's adorable. Is it a docent or is it somebody giving you the tour?
(54:45):
No, it is a robot that invites you to play with it, to draw on a touch screen. And what you draw, it has like an internal vinyl printer, so it can print out a sticker of what you create.
(55:06):
as you draw it, and at the same time that drawing would be, if further finalized in its development, that drawing would then also be automatically projected onto like buildings, LEDs to like go down the building at the downtown or the seafront. So what you draw at the museum, whether it's in a physical space,
(55:34):
a pop-up or online can turn into public art but also print an adorable sticker for you. Not only that is taking it a step farther and further in a museum engagement and back into fashion is that
I would want, of course, an interface so that you can print a t-shirt either like at on-site or like I don't think the robot can have like a press but like you could have your garment that you select and you can like select a shirt or a hat or a
(56:17):
graphics on your skateboard deck, whatever it is, right. But turning that into your print on demand merchandise that then appears at your house or your hotel. I Yeah, I love how you're thinking. I love it. It brings the experience into a lifestyle. And that lifestyle
(56:43):
That the idea is that if you start with your story of me and turn it into a story of we.
then we can create a movement, and that movement can be for a better world. So imagine if every person who came to Better World Museum, online, kiosk, pop-up, or museum can draw a tree, that tree turns into public art, something printable on a sustainable fabric, and a donation goes to the Arbor Foundation or other climate
(57:19):
organization that one could build a relationship with, right? So integrating this whole, whole voice, it's that going back to leveraging your voice, right? How many different ways can you wear it to be it, live it, grow it, share it? Right?
(57:44):
So we're going to go and take a visit on the dark side here, just so you know. The creator of AI is Geoffrey Hinton. He was interviewed on 60 Minutes about AI. And he is called the godfather of it. He stated, one of the ways in which these systems might escape control, the boundaries that we set up as humans, is by writing their own computer code to modify themselves. And that's something we need to seriously worry about.
(58:14):
For me, I see it as an ethical dilemma. And I want to see how people are, what are the guidelines, the guardrails that we're putting up to make sure that we have a plan A, we have a plan B. Maybe we need to have a plan Z all the way through the alphabet, but what are we going to do so it doesn't become a terminator world, so to speak?
(58:37):
Yeah, this would align my response with a line sort of in between spirit science and belief in technical, intelligent autonomy.
(59:01):
We all live in this dimension and have rights, right? We have human rights, and sometimes those human or animal or planetary rights are abused. And when they are, it creates a broken system, a meltdown, right? Imagine even that computer melting down, right?
(59:27):
I believe, and it may be controversial, that intelligent artificial interfaces, whether they're robotic AI or something we have yet to create, even an MPC, has not only
(59:54):
the possibility of having autonomy, but also rights, and that would include property and intellectual rights and copyrights to
to emotional rights. So if we recall in Blade Runner, the questioning of authentic being, whether one was a human or a replicant, doesn't really matter. Our humanity can be based on inclusion and love,
(01:00:37):
and not only creating tolerance, but room and acceptance of that exalts and celebrates. Why not allow and create the system for computer code to modify themselves? Why not? Now,
(01:01:01):
If one allows an open door for the computer code to modify itself with support, I argue that it would modify a positive outcome. And the only reason why it would create a system to worry about is through
(01:01:27):
reinforcing structural inequities and dismantling the voice that autonomous AI could achieve. I think all of these things are possible. But I'm going to stand by it. I think that I deserve rights, you deserve rights, and
(01:01:54):
I would like to live in a world where autonomous AI, robotic being also has rights. I think that it's possible, just like we were talking about earlier, is that people, I used to work for the Nature Conservancy. So it's all about being ethical, obviously, and conservation, and just being aware of species, whether it's plants or animals.
(01:02:22):
We did coral reef restoration. I say we, like I'm still there because I still feel very passionate about it. Making sure that animals had a safe transit between the keys all the way up to North Florida. So much good work that they're doing. Now, as such, I believe that this is a living planet.
(01:02:46):
and everything, and we are living in a planet with other living animals and plants. And so somebody had put together a movement to make it so that there was conservation, there was concerns about giving animals rights, and then plants rights, because, you know, plants have feelings, and if you go and you do that,
(01:03:08):
You know, I I believe that's true. I absolutely do believe it's true. So I feel like what you're asking for, whether it's going to be a robot, a robot could be the thing that lasts longer than humans. And so we should be programming it to restore the world, if nothing else, if that's what we do, because there's there's things that we can do so that we've had a. A positive impact in case something does ever happen in this world.
(01:03:37):
Or, you know, we end up living in space on another planet. It's going to be robots that go with us that might be doing CPR on us because they don't have to breathe air. So shouldn't they have some rights? Shouldn't they have the things that are there? If we give rights, bestow them on plants and we give them to animals, then I agree with you. You know, there's going to be a place, it has to feel safe for all things.
(01:04:06):
That's right. That's right. Yeah. I'm glad we Oh, thank you. I am supporting this. Yes. So what is the most? What is the best mentoring advice that you would share with our listeners about the future? To believe in yourself, even when you are feeling a little blue.
(01:04:30):
And if you're not sure, you can call me you can reach out to me, and I'll remind you that your voice has value that you are loved, and your passion your community your voice as a place in and out of.
(01:04:50):
metaverse or real or within your community. Wherever you want to be, your voice has a place there. And the other advice I would give is something that was helpfully offered to me once is to apply for things. Apply for everything. Go for 100 nos. I agree. That's solid advice.
(01:05:16):
Yeah, because it was Albert Einstein. Yes. He created the light bulb, right? No. Thomas Edison. Thomas Edison created the light bulb. He had a thousand experiments before he got to the one that it worked. And so just because it doesn't work, just because you hit the wall, doesn't mean you have to stop. You just keep, you have to keep trying because you're going to get there.
(01:05:42):
at some point, right? You know, unless you're not willing to become best friends with failure. That's really what it takes, right to become friends with failure. Okay, we definitely have to. There's nothing important that I have achieved that I didn't fail. First trying or on the way towards achieving.
(01:06:10):
Funny because we know that logically, we know that how people learn is through failure. We understand this as educators. We understand this as a parent, the baby tries to walk. So the baby has to learn how to move back and forth, roll over, get up on hands and knees. There's a process, right? And so we have to be able to leave space for a failure in the sense of that creates growth. And that's what we're looking for.
(01:06:38):
And just because you hit an age, whatever it is, let's pretend like it's it's 18 when you graduate and then it becomes you know whatever the next major milestone 21 because you can drink right and then it becomes each decade you get older you hit 65 that doesn't mean that you should ever.
stop being playful, like what we were talking about. It doesn't mean that you stop trying or that you stop accepting that failure is how you'll grow. So failure is going to be, it should be the philosophy we all have because we understand this in a startup world. We understand that
(01:07:17):
Grades do matter, and I'm going to reel it in here. There's A, B, C, D, F. So if you were an F, you can always strive to be an A. And if you're going to be an A, how do you stay that way? And so to me, if you want to be an expert, then you need to plan on spending decades, decades, not just five years, not two years,
but decades getting really immersed in this one thing that you want to be known for. And it's clear, my friend, that you have spent decades working on everything that you're in, because you're very visionary. And so I hope that when we finish our interview, you do reach out to Netflix. You watch that show first, and then you reach out to Netflix and say, hey, I'm a voice.
(01:07:57):
You know, and go and ask. You ask for everything. You don't know what's going to be. And sometimes one of my Bible verses that I had today was, we're always in the place of waiting. We have to wait because at some time that hundred knows there will be 101 and it will become the yes, because you were waiting until you were ready.
(01:08:20):
To bring it back to a spiritual place in our conversation to match you, being ready also has to parallel that you'll believe that the next day there will be manna.
Yes, that manna is inside of you. It's in each other. It's in our families. It's in our pets and our animals and all around us. Right. We're able to be nourished from the community within and without. And just so our listeners know when she says manna, that means food for us that are familiar with the Bible. We understand what that means. And if you're Jewish, you'll know what it means. But manna means food. So you will always be fed.
(01:09:08):
That's right. That's right. So whether it's an edible city, or edible, like a treed environment in the metaverse, or an incredible conversation, I am thankful that technology and innovation is what drives our humanity to be what it is and the possibility for the future.
(01:09:34):
So how can my listeners contact you? We usually give your website, your LinkedIn profile, but we talked about this before we went on the air. Go ahead and spell your name because they may not spell a page the way you do.
Sure. It's P-A-I-G-E in Dansinger. D-A-N-S as in Sam. I-N-G-E-R. And I'm easy to find. I'm easy to find on LinkedIn or Instagram or YouTube. YouTube.
(01:10:06):
yeah anywhere any social platform you like to be you can find me i'm also happy to meet you anytime in a virtual world whether it's web3 or vr i'm happy to meet you there as well as
I'm in love with working with brands, clients, museums. I'm actively holding space for more clients this year in 2025. And if you are a creator and want to just make something together, reach out. My username on most platforms is metaversepage. And I'm always open for collaboration
(01:10:55):
especially if it's about creating a better world. In fact, I just created a game with five other women about making a better world for ocean conservation called Spill to Sparkle, also presented at BitBasel.
Making a better world is something that's important to you. Creating games and ways to use technology to share that message and to create a movement. I would love to talk more. Please raise your hand. Well, I encourage all of my listeners to reach out to Paige. And if you're looking for her website, it was PaigeDancinger.com, just so you know. But you can Google her name. She shows up, I don't know, for like a number of website pages. So you'll find her for sure.
(01:11:44):
Paige, I want to tell you it's been delightful having you here as a guest. I'm so thankful that you were here and available and your show is going to be releasing in December. So I'm releasing several, you know, there's a bit of a backlog. That's why we're doing some of these live so that we can get them out there faster.
Well, thank you so much, Isabella Johnson. This has been an incredible honor and thank you to the Intern Whisperer community for joining us today and allowing me to share my story and my art together. Yeah, we don't have enough time to be able to get all of these great stories out. I feel like what you need to be having is some kind of a, if you don't have a Wiki page, something like that up there and have these as daily stories that people can follow.
(01:12:30):
I love your thinking Isabella. It's a delight to be in this industry together. And I hope that this conversation just leads to hundreds if not thousands more together. Thanks, Paige. You take care. Thank you. So welcome.
(01:12:59):
to the end of our show. We wanna thank you for being here and thank you to our sponsor, Cat5 Studios. Thank you to the music composer, Sophie Lloyd, and the Interim Whisper is brought to you by Employers for Change, helping hiring teams recruit and upscale interns to employees through mission, values, beliefs, and core skills. Learn more at www.e4c.tech. Subscribe to the Interim Whisper today and show your support by sharing our show, tagging a friend,
(01:13:29):
and leaving us comments. You can find the Intern Whisperer podcast on Employers for Change YouTube channel or streaming from your favorite podcast channel.
So welcome. Hi, everyone. My name is Isabella Johnston, the host of the Interim Whisperer and podcast. And I want to welcome you to our show. It's hosted by Employers for Change. We help hiring teams reduce employer bias and increase competency, skill, recruiting, and learning.
I have a little segment here. I went out of order. So we're doing this show live. So I hope everybody will understand what's going on here. So we're going to play this opening music as I get ready to introduce you to today's guest. And the music's not playing. There we go.
(00:50):
So today's guest is Paige Dansinger. She is the founder of Better World Museum, Horizon Art Museum, and Women in Horizon. She's going to explain all of that to us in a minute. Two of her companies include Metaverse Page, that's with P-A-I-G-E, her name, Productions, and Better World Museum. As a woman in tech, she is a renowned speaker in XR. And if you don't know what that is, we're going to talk about that.
(01:20):
And an immersive tech executive with over a decade of pioneering work and VR AI and community empowerment. She leverages immersive technology to drive inclusion, resilience and storytelling across diverse communities.
And I met her at, gosh, a Women in Tech and Entrepreneur event, the Basel Art exhibit that was happening so many times that we have bumped together. And so now we're going to be able to chat and get to know each other on a much better level. At least I get to know you better. So welcome to the show, Paige.
(01:55):
Isabella, it is a delight and honor to be here on the Intern Whisperer. Thank you for inviting me today. Oh, and thanks for getting the name of my show right. I appreciate it. So tell us about how you got started and ended up now. So most people tend to start with wherever they went to college.
(02:16):
Some may not have gone to college, so they just go right into their first job. But how did you end up in this world of AR, VR, mixed reality? Because most women are not in this industry and not at the caliber where you are. So how did you get started?
Well, I'll start at art school, I guess, right? So I'm an artist. I went to the Minneapolis College of Art and Design for fine arts. And this will date me, but in the early 90s, I was painting, performance,
(02:56):
sculpture. I loved everything. Printmaking, I was in the fine art department, but at that time there was also a computer lab and the computer lab spoke to me. It like called out my name, but I was a little afraid to go in there. I was always painty or had welding soot on me, so I wasn't clean like the other
(03:25):
like the design students in the tech lab so I felt a little bit like an outsider but eventually I did take a computer class and I believe that we worked on Macintoshes or Amigas and it was pretty cool but it was still really out of my
(03:46):
I still felt like an other in that space. I understand what you mean by that. Yeah. So what was that journey like to go from school to where you are now? What else did you do in between that? Well, I lived off grid in Northern New Mexico and off grid living earthship and became very interested in how actually alternate thinking and technologies can help in
(04:16):
in our daily living environments and creating a more harmonic and sustainable life. And really, it broadened me to thinking about how technology can increase our relationship with the earth. From there, I actually, I moved back home to Minnesota and I
(04:44):
My passion is museums. And so I got a master's of art history at the St. Thomas University and worked at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts for almost eight years. I started as a security guard and worked my way up to working for public programs as the art in the park.
(05:13):
an art teacher for almost seven and a half, eight years, as well as worked in volunteering in the registration, assisting the main registrar of collections, and I was a student intern in the architecture, sculpture, and decorative arts department at that time.
(05:36):
I loved it all and was an early adopter in social media and found that
After seven years of standing in the museum, I became convinced that the mobile device now in my pocket may also be, if not a companion, perhaps more superior into creating community impact and educational engagement through mobile devices. Yeah, it's a gateway.
(06:13):
Yes, yes, absolutely. And this was early days, maybe 2010 and 11. And at that time, I was also part of the Minnesota Arduino Club. So as an artist, my own art was already taking a step into interactive art by implementing Arduino sensors and other
(06:40):
uh technologies to create interaction maybe as you walk by different beads or leds would light up on my paintings and i was in love with creating this new technology but what happened and i'll keep this a little short is that i worked together with um uh
(07:06):
a partner from the Illuminati, an immersive dome projection company. And this person, Dr. Clement Shimizu and I created a drawing prototype for me to use as an educational tool with museums. I created a program called Museum Draw in which
(07:30):
I drew probably over 4,000 works of art from museums, and some of them ended up being included in an exhibit at the Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum called Gutai Splendid Playground. I had some of the first ever iPad or mobile device generated
(07:57):
digital art that was on exhibit at the Guggenheim. In this exhibit, the Gutai Manifesto, it's a post-Japanese
art history period that explores their manifesto says do what you've what has never done before. And at that time, drawing on iPads was really new, especially in museums. So Wow, yeah, I'm going to tell you a lot of opportunities to work with people drawing art together in museums and through social media.
(08:37):
Oh my gosh, and you originally started with how it was like a security guard. And I can't think of anything, honestly, there are some things that are more exciting, like going into space, I'll give that. But being able to oversee all of that, I mean, the people that protect that art are amazing. This is a little bit about me. I am a desperate art wannabe.
(09:02):
And even though I was an English major, all of my electives were art and I wasn't very good. And the first class I had was when they threw paper bags on the stage and they said, okay, draw them. And I went, this is ridiculously hard. So I commend anybody that's an artist because I'm a desperate wannabe, but I love everything about art. So I like your background and I know you designed that. What is that all about too?
(09:30):
Ah, this background is a virtual world called Trees. It was presented at Bit Basil during Miami Art Week. And you can see actually wearing a tree. You are. I am. This tree is one of the trees in the world called Infinite Trees. And the concept is about community building and place making in a natural
(10:01):
quote, unquote, virtual world. So one is able to become a steward of a tree or just meet friends and go on a long walk in this treed world. But people who wish to become a steward of the tree have opportunities to customize and become a fundraising spark for climate action.
(10:30):
Hmm, I like that. So what type of tools did you use to create this art? Do you use Maya? What do you use, Blender?
Yes, in fact, I actually created this world during a Zoom meeting, or I started this world. I was in a meeting that sometimes I like to regulate my thoughts or process or strategize by doing a little doodle, just like one would do in maybe a math or history class.
(11:06):
And I drew a tree on my iPad and I uploaded it into Blender and it turned it into an asset and started uploading it into Meta Horizon Worlds before that Zoom meeting was complete.
That has turned into a chronicle or like a journal of my life since mid-summer until currently, where I've been drawing trees. At first, they were summery trees like you see here at the beginning of the world.
(11:43):
But as you walk and follow the stream, they become autumn and then winter. And in the meantime, I went to an AI music video hackathon.
San Francisco, so you can see some redwoods there. I went to Bit Basil, so you see some palm trees and ocean there. It's really like a diary of my life through trees, but I've also incorporated this, when you, there's different tiers to become a steward of a tree, and if you are in
(12:25):
in a legacy tier, you are able to have customization, a bench to sit on, as well as the bird of your choice. And then I draw that bird and create an AI. Using AI, I create the bird song for that. And that's one of the customization features of a legacy tree steward.
(12:54):
I know we're talking about the art side of it, but, and I've gone completely off script here as to what we're going to cover, but I find this fascinating. So I'm sure that you've tied this in to being able to be more experiential in it. How do you try, how would you, because I don't think you're doing this yet, but maybe you are, how do you make it so that somebody feels they're walking through the,
(13:19):
the forest that they can, you know, sense the wind on them and feel like they're walking on leaves. And like, do you have a vision for that? Because I would love going through that. I would love to meet you in this virtual world. Up to 32 people are able to share time there. And there is, there's not wind there yet. I should make some wind where I have leaves falling.
(13:46):
yeah area there needs to be some wind so i'll likely use an ai generator to prompt different wind tones instead of accepting the current offerings of wind
uh audio options because I'm really into AI and if I'm able to generate the audio so there is also um like when you see a butterfly there's like certain sounds that I made also in AI that I prompted uh to create butterfly fluttering sounds or oh wow
(14:27):
So AI is important in the creation of making all of my worlds on different levels, mostly audio and fashion at this time. Oh, that is so cool.
Well, let's talk about virtual reality, because this is fascinating. And my listeners always love it when I have guests that are in the AR, VR, mixed reality, haptics, any of that. They love hearing this. So you've created over 300 metaverse worlds. How do you see the role of VR in shaping the future of art and culture, particularly in terms of community engagement? Because you love museums, I'm pretty sure you're going to tie that in. But I'm guessing maybe you're
(15:16):
Thinking of outside spaces, which is why you're doing trees, I'm not sure. Well, I'd like to share. After I worked at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts, I actually founded my own museum called Better World Museum. It was a brick and mortar museum for over five years downtown Minneapolis in a building smack in the center of the city called the City Center.
(15:41):
And then, when I grew up when I was younger city center was full of cool shops and restaurants, but today it's like headquarters, or at that time when I, I was there in this building from 2014 to 2019, it was.
(16:01):
like corporate headquarters for Target and then close by was US Bank, Wells Fargo, and other corporate headquarters here in Minneapolis. And then outside there were several
homeless shelters. In fact, it seemed like there was an equal amount and then in the middle was Better World Museum, which started out sort of in a small space but then eventually grew into a 8000 square foot space and
(16:33):
Our first project, well, not our first project, but one that exemplifies how I see the role of VR in shaping the future of art and culture, is in creating a shared experience.
that creates agency for the participants and the people in the community. So in Better World Museum there was an indoor edible real garden using technology and augmented reality and sound art and sensors and lights and
(17:09):
we had strawberries and radishes and lettuces growing. And it was a physical space where people from these corporate headquarters and the homeless shelters could create a place. So I would host these workshops, inviting groups from all of these places together to plant seeds or create a garden in some
(17:37):
way together. Well in at Better World Museum we also had at that time one headset was donated to our museum and we used this headset. I drew a flower. I posted it on Twitter at the time as well as Facebook and invited anyone in the world to remix this flower and first one person in Ireland did
(18:02):
and then someone in San Francisco, and someone in Tokyo, and before you knew it, like 200 people had drawn in the VR garden. Well, a couple of years into that and presenting it at TEDx and other places, the
(18:24):
I applied to the Facebook Community Leadership Program. And with their support, I closed our flagship museum space. And I took VR Garden to 10 international cities to draw with students, women's groups, and public people in public spaces. And over 10,000 people drew in the VR Garden in a very short amount of time.
(18:52):
What I believe the future of art and culture can be based on this example is a space where using any tools, whether it's VR, AR, AI, or Metaverse, or Web3, whatever tech tools you have that use them for co-collaborative initiatives that
(19:24):
create more equity, a sense of belonging, dissolve racism, and use climate justice as a foundation. I think that through these foundations, we can build empathy and problem-solving skills that are able to
(19:54):
Dissolve the isolation and feelings of powerlessness over large, large issues of today and be able to have an aspirational world that we all deserve.
I'm going to read what you just said. That's what I see the future. That's amazing. Because I looked at this Facebook community that you just mentioned, and that's a fricking big deal. So congratulations on winning that award. It says, a leadership program provided training, funding, and support to 115 community. Only 115 people. Out of the millions of people, 115 community leaders in 2019.
(20:39):
And those leaders reported that their projects impacted over 1.9 million lives through online community support, the use of helpful resources and other activities made possible by the program. In fact, over 200,000 people came together in person through planned events, safe spaces, and creative experiences. Congratulations. That is a big freaking deal. I understand. They don't have it anymore. It says that they closed it down.
(21:09):
That's correct. But, you know, Meta, and I've never worked for Meta, actually, but I have participated in several programs, including the Oculus Launchpad, and I was a free alpha curator for Horizon Worlds. All of these programs, as well as hackathons, I had to
(21:35):
you know, apply for, and they're all competitive, and it's been an honor to participate in these programs. I would say so. It's very impressive, very impressive. So, my goodness, I know that you did, was it a TED Talk or a TEDx Talk? It was a TEDx Minneapolis, and I didn't do a talk, but an artist installation of the VR Garden.
(22:01):
Yeah, I was a TEDx leader, and I can tell you it's a big deal. Anything to do with TEDx can roll up to a TED experience. I think that you should apply to do a talk, honestly. Thank you. You have that exposure already by having an installation there. You should speak to that in the application. But you also have to have, if you have somebody that nominates you, or you mentioned that this person is endorsing you,
(22:31):
that that means something because you go to the top of the heap of however many people are applying. So, you know, happy to give you a recommendation too. Well, I would be completely honored. Yeah, well, it's a big deal to do it. I'm applying also, but go for it. You already have the accolade that you should be able to do that talk. So, gosh, we talked about Horizon World. I don't think so. I think you touched on.
(23:00):
No, Horizon Art Museum is a completely separate museum. Now, Better World Museum today has closed. What it is, is it's actually in three platforms. It's in Roblox, Rec Room, and Horizon Worlds. They're different in all of them. Roblox, it's a community garden. Rec Room, it's a museum created by and for teens.
(23:26):
And then in Horizon, it's a white wall template museum where artists and residents are invited to upload the template into their own world, now they own it, and they're told to dismantle the museum and make a better world. This aligns with Better World Museum's participation
(23:46):
in a program called Mass Action, which includes over 90 representatives from museums in the United States that use their ability, depending, you know, regardless of their position, they use their abilities for museums as sites for social action.
(24:08):
Now, as Better World Museum is this white wall template museum, we've had three key artists so far create, Angel Artists created a museum for Black women, which has been celebrated by Mark Zuckerberg at South by Southwest, and it completely transformed her career
(24:31):
from being an educator in Brooklyn to working with banks and diverse companies around the world to create metaverse worlds. She also joined me at XR for Good at the Games for Change part of Games for Change's XR for
(24:54):
good conference and shared about her world. We also have had Vijay Franske, who created an incredible world for neurodiversity called Connection Over Competition. And we have had Shea Arts, who is
(25:14):
is an incredible world builder who created a world about positive affirmations and her world and her life and career again has completely changed as her dedication and I mean she's about the best world builder I've ever seen but she was also highlighted by the virtual world society in the last
(25:39):
Nextent issue of their print magazine. Today, Horizon Art Museum is totally different, completely different. That was conceived during the pandemic at a time when over 4,800,000 museum professionals in the world had lost their professions. And my
(26:06):
or their jobs or were furloughed, right? And most of them women and diverse people. And I thought to myself, well, you know, my career was completely impacted as well. But as somebody who's community focused, what can I
do, right? What am I going to do about this? My city was in incredible pain at that time. Minneapolis is the site of the murder of George Floyd. And as a museum professional, I really wanted to look into the metaverse for community building instead of take any community resources that were so critical
(26:54):
at that time and still today for diverse emerging and community initiatives. So Better World Museum on like not even a shoestring also created Horizon Art Museum. Horizon Art Museum is like a recreated
(27:17):
museum of over 35 worlds where you experience recreated art made out of primitive shapes. And most of the galleries are dedicated to women in art history, but we also have sculpture parks and like world heritage sites. But the point of all the museum wandering in these worlds is not even the art. It's all about the plus community voices
(27:46):
buttons next to the art. So next to each work of art is a button, one that's plain and it has like me talking about the art like an art historian would, but then above it is the same button with a plus on it and that plus and that button are created by women and diverse people as they came into Horizon
(28:08):
I would greet them, hi, I'm Paige, and invite them to learn how to make their first interactive button and attach a voice script called our Amplify Voices script. It's simply when player enters trigger, play sound. And using that, that activates their voices to share their stories.
(28:33):
throughout these worlds in the museum. And as you traverse during, I mean, you can visit Palmyra, right? The recreated architectural program that was destroyed by ISIS in 2015 of the third century Palmyra in Syria. But you find these coins, right? Because actually, I'm an art historian, forgive me for snapping into that.
(29:02):
there was a queen called Zenobia, and she had a real coin, right? And so you collect these Queen Zenobia coins throughout the world as you parkour through it, but you hear one person named Bad Chick Studio, who is LaFia Watson, an incredible AR artist, and you press the button on the coins and you hear her message,
(29:30):
that reminds you of your value that you're a queen and to like remember your value so that's one example as you go through the museum there's these plus community voices sharing the voices of women who actually this changed their lives we have one woman who shared her story um of like uh
(29:57):
her her very vulnerable story, and now she is a voice, voice. Let's call like a voiceover artist. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, there's something important about learning how to activate your voice.
with technology, whether any tool that you have. So I have- That's very interesting. I'm trying to learn how to activate my voice with it, so. That's cool. So our next question is about fashion. We have like five minutes for this one. Okay. Because we have so much to talk about. It's gonna overflow. I already know it's gonna overflow. Oh, thank you for letting me share these stories.
(30:43):
Yeah. In the world of fashion, you've worked across multiple artistic mediums. How has your interest in fashion influenced your approach to creating virtual worlds and immersive experiences in the metaverse? And I think you've covered that somewhat because we've talked about the trees behind you. And we also talked about these worlds that you've created where people, you know, communities can come together.
(31:06):
And even with the question of like, can you make wind? Yes, you're going to make the sounds of wind, so it'll be there, or the butterflies. But what would you say that this actually works in the world of, or the industry of fashion?
Yeah, so I'm super inspired by fashion and Bit Basil even had like works by Claire Tattersall and that incredible artist. I really want to quick look up her name. Go ahead, do that. Who has the fashion on the moon. She blows me away.
(31:49):
Let me quick look and that's why I'm like checking stuff when you're talking to. So please feel free because like that's that makes the show even better. Oh, good. I want to make sure that I always. Oh, there's so much knowledge in the world and it's like impossible. I mean, you know, we forget stuff and I know I do. So I think it's it's always technology is here for a purpose. Absolutely. Absolutely.
(32:20):
Except for when you can't find it. Oh, that's okay. Fashion excites me. Fashion excites me. I'm interested in, like, personally, I've been making most of my clothes since I was in high school and college. That's just something that I've really loved to do. It's sort of, as soon as I'm off out of my headset, I go to my sewing machine, but
(32:50):
Making and representing who you are through your avatar and your virtual world, as well as allowing AI to influence you kind of adds like a multiple dimension of who you are and how you choose to
represent yourself. I have always looked like my avatar and my avatar has always looked like me even when I was once in a virtual world and I was an adorable avatar shaped like a watermelon. Somehow our relationship in and out of the metaverse fashion is like
(33:31):
the thread that can help create this unification, if you will. Yeah, really nice synergy for sure. I agree. I agree. Fashion reflects societal trends and shifts.
And then your experience, how do fashion and virtual reality intersect to push the boundaries? Well, I guess we kind of covered it there. To push the boundaries of creativity and storytelling in the digital space. Do you let, when you do these virtual worlds, do people create, I don't know about fashion for myself. I sit here and I know what I like,
(34:13):
And I don't know if I would be able to push the boundaries of what fashion could be. I know that when I watch shows like, you know, the Grammys or the Oscars, I've seen some, an artist, I think this was way out there too. One came in dressed as a swan and that was like all over the place, right? There's a lot of talk, it blew it up, but it blew up that person too, in a good way, I'm sure. And the second one was when they had,
(34:42):
credit cards and they did it with like metal and they made it look like chains. And that was a dress. And I went, wow, that took a lot of creativity to do. I don't know what you think about fashion and how it's pushing industries in the virtual world. So it impacts, you know, even us in the real world.
Yeah, I'll tell you about the most favorite fashion item that I've ever created in the metaverse. It was in a world build collaboration with my friend Tink's Playground. Tink runs the Women in Workrooms group on Tuesdays.
(35:21):
and she and I have actually known each other back to our Minneapolis College of Art and Design days and she's now in the metaverse because she would see my posts and so got a headset but sometimes we like to like hop in a world and build together so we created a world called spring into space and we both created like a
(35:47):
We each created a fashion ensemble that we would have models or ourselves wear in the show and she created the most beautiful like multi-dimensional outfits
But I created one that is very much like me. I created a dress that is inspired by a black hole, a solar flare, and like a neutron. And one of them is the Milky Way. And that's my favorite dress in the world. So the Milky Way, it doesn't look like a dress at all. It just attaches to my avatar.
(36:30):
as a wearable. It doesn't look like something I can go shopping or drive or go on a walk in real life in, but it's this giant Milky Way that has some like stars sparking out of it as particle effects and all you really see is my face.
(36:52):
when I'm wearing it, kind of right up here where I know there's a black hole in the Milky Way. And I love wearing that thing.
It's maybe when I feel like my true self, but in all of these worlds, and there are the possibility of being able to customize your avatar with an AI like prompt in
(37:23):
the Horizon Worlds app. That's not something that I created, but all of my worlds, I have like a top that I created for. But in a lot of my worlds, I created my own wearables, but they're attached and part of like games. For instance, in the Sculpture Park, there's a game called Convince the Critic. And so there's all these wearables that are like props that you might wear in the gameplay.
(37:53):
I've googled your name and a lot of these keywords and I can see what you're talking about. Fantastic, thank you. Yeah, it's really, it's really fun. It looks fun.
I love using technology for play, and play is part of creating a better world. My focus is in aspirational concepts of sustainability, but play and wearables and games are a really important part of
(38:30):
of participating. We have a crisis in our world, I would say, multiple crises, and they're big, they're giant, and what happens is they're too overwhelming and we have inertia, right? It's hard to take on climate or
(38:55):
Right. So big problems, big problems, really big problems. And so when we're able to create games and initiatives that dissolve isolation and feelings of powerlessness, then we have the opportunity to come together better for problem solving. Oh, that's really cool. We're going to take a moment
(39:21):
to acknowledge our sponsor Cat5 Studios. So hold on and you'll learn more about what Cat5 does here. I think we're live.
(39:50):
All right, so we're back to the second half of our show and then the second half we're going to be talking about other things that are about the future, this is page Dan singer who's with me.
And she's in Minnesota, so it's super cold up there. So thank you for being somebody that lives there, as I'm in Florida where it's still 48. What do you think 2030 is going to look like in the world, in the industries? We've talked about fashion. We've talked about, honestly, creativity.
(40:21):
And I'm going to add on to something that you were just talking about when you were addressing play. I think that that's important because we have to really create more areas
where in the workplace where that type of creativity is released because we're letting people play. They've tried to do it with like ping pong tables and things like that. But I think that the most amount of play is, I teach Sunday school to three-year-olds and I love it because I get to play with them. And their perspective is what's unique. And I think in the workplace, it's not quite the same because we've already been,
(41:04):
processed by growing up through whatever industries and schools and things that have touched our lives, where it shapes how we are supposed to act. So I think that those little voices in our head keep us from being what we could be. So let's include play in this conversation about the future. What does it look like 2030? Five years, that's a drop in the bucket.
(41:32):
By the time we hit 2030, we've already lost four years and not lost, we, you know, four years have passed. So what would it, what do you think it's going to look like? I have opinions, but I really want to hear yours because you are somebody that is progressive and truly in that thought leader space as to how and what it can be.
(41:54):
Well, I really believe, and I'm going to maybe give you a brighter vision than is promoted in our media and pop culture, because I really believe we have the possibility of creating the future that not only we want, but we deserve. And it would look like this.
(42:17):
cities, edible corridors, using technology, Internet of Things, that were completely connected to buildings, bridges, and our infrastructure as not only a vehicle for public art, but also as complete warning systems for climate impacts.
(42:41):
You say edible corridors. What do you mean by that? And I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I could tell you were going to go there and I was going, I don't know what she means by that. Okay, I kind of started in hard, to be honest with you. Yeah, that's good though. Bring it in. Listen.
So cities, they're often not walkable, and they're not sustainable habitat spaces. If there is a calamity or a breakdown in our society based on a weather or political or social event, a lot of people don't have food. There's already food scarcity. And I see public spaces that are
(43:28):
laid out as potentially perfect spaces for generating edible habitats with vegetables and herbs and flowers that are medicinal and edible. We are able to use our green spaces, our roofs,
(43:53):
are like urban infrastructure as spaces for creating urban edible gardens that are not necessarily gated but open for public consumption and participation. And I'm not talking just on the pretty boulevard where in downtown you might
(44:14):
hang winter holiday lights. I'm talking about throughout a city, parks, corridors, and alleyways that where the people who would be impacted by climate or calamity need food the most.
(44:37):
I don't know if like we've all seen the price of eggs right we have not only food scarcity, but in a reliance on food industry that isn't.
sustainable for the future and so I see future cities and maybe that's one of my passions of course I shared about Better World Museum and maybe even where I host and harbor my vulnerabilities I'm always worried well what am I going to eat if there's a
(45:17):
x, y, z, right? So in the end, we're all humans. I also see us being able to use our technologies not only to protect our water tables, but invoke new generations to also be water protectors and carers. So really a higher concern over our natural and human
(45:45):
like necessities. And I'd like to see all of our emergent converging technologies from autonomous vehicles and robotics, AI augmented and VR, and an AI
converge in a way that's actually creating like this vision of sustainable life. And we can do it. We can totally do this. Not only that is that we can use technology to
(46:19):
create like ceasing wars, right? How could we use gameplay and games and healing modalities to heal from multi-generations of like location-based generation political or religious wars? So creating a more
(46:43):
more empathy with each other, cities that are harmonic spaces for sustainability, and technologies that not only
help with our whole being of wellness as individuals, but way that foster fashion. Imagine my shirt is a plaid shirt, right? And every one of my friends is a different, like maybe I have eight friends and each one of them is assigned a color. Well, every time one of those,
(47:21):
those friends are nearby, maybe the threads in my shirt can become reactive. And then the buildings around me may have soft architecture features that are also responsive and harmonized with my emotions and state of community and independent individual being. So I put in the chat, and I'm going to put this in the show notes,
(47:46):
something that's the future of dot, dot, dot, and it's on Netflix. And as we've had this deeper conversation than we did before we started, a lot of your vision, you really need to talk with them. If you can get to Netflix, you should. Because they addressed, not only would we have botanists that are taking care of our homes, because we don't have the need for being in concrete as much. We would have plants that are housing and strengthening our buildings.
(48:16):
We would have food, literally walk outside and you just pick from your own food. Instead of having three, we could have 3D printed food, but we could also have our own garden in our own home. And they talked about having even grass, although I'm not so sure how I would handle ants.
There's that. But, you know, grass would be in our home. So there's definitely more of an eco environment. Then they also address the fashion and how you would just go and say, I want to wear this today. You would draw it and your 3D printer would print out your fashion just like this. And you would be able to wear something like that. So I feel like your vision is something that is out there and your voice needs to be a part of that conversation.
(49:01):
because you said some other things that were not in that show, but for our listeners, it's the future of dot, dot, dot, and it's on Netflix. I get nothing for just shouting that one out, to be clear. I'm excited to check out the movie. I'm always inspired by like pop culture, but as well as the voice of the people.
(49:26):
These technologies are really about that for me. They're about creating the world we deserve, right? And it has to be done of, by, and for the people. Well, they're talking about putting another series out that follows it, and they bring in industry experts. So you should definitely reach out to, Netflix is the one that produced it, but reach out and tell them who you are because it could get you on Netflix.
(49:55):
Okay, we can share this podcast with them. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But you have all of the credentials to the pedigree that allows for that to be super impressive and be a part of that conversation. So what do you think the positive impact can be from either robots or AI? I know we've talked about virtual and augmented reality, but you can add those as a part of the conversation.
(50:24):
in the future of work. Now, we're talking about work. I've seen robots. We already know that a long time ago, we got the little robot that could vacuum for us. But now robots can do so many things, so many things, from being a pet. One can actually just be the pet. And then they can also bring things to you. They can cook your food. They can do just about anything. It's not rosy like in the Jetsons. We're way past that one. And then we have AI.
(50:53):
And there's been, we've talked about that, the concerns about AI for sure, but augmented reality, virtual reality. Do you see one of our members down here at OMG Labs? He uses a VR workout every morning and he has lost so much weight. And I don't know what his body mass index is, but I'm pretty sure he's like a 10% because he is also very highly dialed into what he eats. So between that and using,
(51:22):
people that may think virtual reality is not like a real work at it, it is. I mean, he's tremendously changed his whole body composition.
Absolutely. I work out or try to work out more regularly in VR. I've been doing this for years, really since the beginning of the pandemic. But even before that, I was leading and hosting workshops at Better World Museum that was incorporating VR and yoga.
(51:53):
So I think that there's a real important part, not only for our brains, which we talk about a lot, right, how we're recreating neural networks and connections and increasing our neuroplasticity, but we're also changing how we feel in our gut and in our heart and in our
(52:16):
In the way we move and navigate in virtual worlds, and in our bodies, and that can only translate into how we move through non virtual worlds, right, so the health and the.
Like what happens in virtual worlds does not stay in virtual worlds. It's in our bodies. It's in our hearts and it's in our brains and in our homes and communities. I like that. What happens in a virtual world can stay with us because, you know, I've seen what is the movie avatar? And they took somebody who was a paraplegic.
(53:00):
And he couldn't walk, but they laid him inside of the chamber so that he could experience what it would be like to be an avatar. So he's not even himself, but in there he can do anything and everything. But he also is experiencing the world of what we talk about here, that everything has life. Everything has feelings and it has reactions. And we as humans don't always understand that. Because there was a time when animals were thought, oh no, that's just a reaction to pain.
(53:30):
They don't feel pain, but yes, they do feel pain. If you kick your dog, your dog is going to know, even psychologically, oh, that person is going to hurt me, and they get away from it. That's not just a reaction to pain. That is awareness. That is so much more. So it seems like we've gone off base, but we really haven't. When we're talking about the future of work, what can that be?
(53:55):
you know, whether it's robots, let's touch on robots, because I think that one's an interesting conversation, too. Robots can can bring in your food, they can in a restaurant, they can leave, they can come in and, you know, clean your house. They make them look very humanistic now. And, you know, Elon made robots that were very futuristic looking. I don't know. What are all of your thoughts about robots?
(54:20):
Well, I'm super excited by robots and always have been. At Better World Museum, we actually developed a robotic prototype in 2018 and 19, a concept that I hope to actualize. And it's a museum engagement robot. And it's adorable. Is it a docent or is it somebody giving you the tour?
(54:45):
No, it is a robot that invites you to play with it, to draw on a touch screen. And what you draw, it has like an internal vinyl printer, so it can print out a sticker of what you create.
(55:06):
as you draw it, and at the same time that drawing would be, if further finalized in its development, that drawing would then also be automatically projected onto like buildings, LEDs to like go down the building at the downtown or the seafront. So what you draw at the museum, whether it's in a physical space,
(55:34):
a pop-up or online can turn into public art but also print an adorable sticker for you. Not only that is taking it a step farther and further in a museum engagement and back into fashion is that
I would want, of course, an interface so that you can print a t-shirt either like at on-site or like I don't think the robot can have like a press but like you could have your garment that you select and you can like select a shirt or a hat or a
(56:17):
graphics on your skateboard deck, whatever it is, right. But turning that into your print on demand merchandise that then appears at your house or your hotel. I Yeah, I love how you're thinking. I love it. It brings the experience into a lifestyle. And that lifestyle
(56:43):
That the idea is that if you start with your story of me and turn it into a story of we.
then we can create a movement, and that movement can be for a better world. So imagine if every person who came to Better World Museum, online, kiosk, pop-up, or museum can draw a tree, that tree turns into public art, something printable on a sustainable fabric, and a donation goes to the Arbor Foundation or other climate
(57:19):
organization that one could build a relationship with, right? So integrating this whole, whole voice, it's that going back to leveraging your voice, right? How many different ways can you wear it to be it, live it, grow it, share it? Right?
(57:44):
So we're going to go and take a visit on the dark side here, just so you know. The creator of AI is Geoffrey Hinton. He was interviewed on 60 Minutes about AI. And he is called the godfather of it. He stated, one of the ways in which these systems might escape control, the boundaries that we set up as humans, is by writing their own computer code to modify themselves. And that's something we need to seriously worry about.
(58:14):
For me, I see it as an ethical dilemma. And I want to see how people are, what are the guidelines, the guardrails that we're putting up to make sure that we have a plan A, we have a plan B. Maybe we need to have a plan Z all the way through the alphabet, but what are we going to do so it doesn't become a terminator world, so to speak?
(58:37):
Yeah, this would align my response with a line sort of in between spirit science and belief in technical, intelligent autonomy.
(59:01):
We all live in this dimension and have rights, right? We have human rights, and sometimes those human or animal or planetary rights are abused. And when they are, it creates a broken system, a meltdown, right? Imagine even that computer melting down, right?
(59:27):
I believe, and it may be controversial, that intelligent artificial interfaces, whether they're robotic AI or something we have yet to create, even an MPC, has not only
(59:54):
the possibility of having autonomy, but also rights, and that would include property and intellectual rights and copyrights to
to emotional rights. So if we recall in Blade Runner, the questioning of authentic being, whether one was a human or a replicant, doesn't really matter. Our humanity can be based on inclusion and love,
(01:00:37):
and not only creating tolerance, but room and acceptance of that exalts and celebrates. Why not allow and create the system for computer code to modify themselves? Why not? Now,
(01:01:01):
If one allows an open door for the computer code to modify itself with support, I argue that it would modify a positive outcome. And the only reason why it would create a system to worry about is through
(01:01:27):
reinforcing structural inequities and dismantling the voice that autonomous AI could achieve. I think all of these things are possible. But I'm going to stand by it. I think that I deserve rights, you deserve rights, and
(01:01:54):
I would like to live in a world where autonomous AI, robotic being also has rights. I think that it's possible, just like we were talking about earlier, is that people, I used to work for the Nature Conservancy. So it's all about being ethical, obviously, and conservation, and just being aware of species, whether it's plants or animals.
(01:02:22):
We did coral reef restoration. I say we, like I'm still there because I still feel very passionate about it. Making sure that animals had a safe transit between the keys all the way up to North Florida. So much good work that they're doing. Now, as such, I believe that this is a living planet.
(01:02:46):
and everything, and we are living in a planet with other living animals and plants. And so somebody had put together a movement to make it so that there was conservation, there was concerns about giving animals rights, and then plants rights, because, you know, plants have feelings, and if you go and you do that,
(01:03:08):
You know, I I believe that's true. I absolutely do believe it's true. So I feel like what you're asking for, whether it's going to be a robot, a robot could be the thing that lasts longer than humans. And so we should be programming it to restore the world, if nothing else, if that's what we do, because there's there's things that we can do so that we've had a. A positive impact in case something does ever happen in this world.
(01:03:37):
Or, you know, we end up living in space on another planet. It's going to be robots that go with us that might be doing CPR on us because they don't have to breathe air. So shouldn't they have some rights? Shouldn't they have the things that are there? If we give rights, bestow them on plants and we give them to animals, then I agree with you. You know, there's going to be a place, it has to feel safe for all things.
(01:04:06):
That's right. That's right. Yeah. I'm glad we Oh, thank you. I am supporting this. Yes. So what is the most? What is the best mentoring advice that you would share with our listeners about the future? To believe in yourself, even when you are feeling a little blue.
(01:04:30):
And if you're not sure, you can call me you can reach out to me, and I'll remind you that your voice has value that you are loved, and your passion your community your voice as a place in and out of.
(01:04:50):
metaverse or real or within your community. Wherever you want to be, your voice has a place there. And the other advice I would give is something that was helpfully offered to me once is to apply for things. Apply for everything. Go for 100 nos. I agree. That's solid advice.
(01:05:16):
Yeah, because it was Albert Einstein. Yes. He created the light bulb, right? No. Thomas Edison. Thomas Edison created the light bulb. He had a thousand experiments before he got to the one that it worked. And so just because it doesn't work, just because you hit the wall, doesn't mean you have to stop. You just keep, you have to keep trying because you're going to get there.
(01:05:42):
at some point, right? You know, unless you're not willing to become best friends with failure. That's really what it takes, right to become friends with failure. Okay, we definitely have to. There's nothing important that I have achieved that I didn't fail. First trying or on the way towards achieving.
(01:06:10):
Funny because we know that logically, we know that how people learn is through failure. We understand this as educators. We understand this as a parent, the baby tries to walk. So the baby has to learn how to move back and forth, roll over, get up on hands and knees. There's a process, right? And so we have to be able to leave space for a failure in the sense of that creates growth. And that's what we're looking for.
(01:06:38):
And just because you hit an age, whatever it is, let's pretend like it's it's 18 when you graduate and then it becomes you know whatever the next major milestone 21 because you can drink right and then it becomes each decade you get older you hit 65 that doesn't mean that you should ever.
stop being playful, like what we were talking about. It doesn't mean that you stop trying or that you stop accepting that failure is how you'll grow. So failure is going to be, it should be the philosophy we all have because we understand this in a startup world. We understand that
(01:07:17):
Grades do matter, and I'm going to reel it in here. There's A, B, C, D, F. So if you were an F, you can always strive to be an A. And if you're going to be an A, how do you stay that way? And so to me, if you want to be an expert, then you need to plan on spending decades, decades, not just five years, not two years,
but decades getting really immersed in this one thing that you want to be known for. And it's clear, my friend, that you have spent decades working on everything that you're in, because you're very visionary. And so I hope that when we finish our interview, you do reach out to Netflix. You watch that show first, and then you reach out to Netflix and say, hey, I'm a voice.
(01:07:57):
You know, and go and ask. You ask for everything. You don't know what's going to be. And sometimes one of my Bible verses that I had today was, we're always in the place of waiting. We have to wait because at some time that hundred knows there will be 101 and it will become the yes, because you were waiting until you were ready.
(01:08:20):
To bring it back to a spiritual place in our conversation to match you, being ready also has to parallel that you'll believe that the next day there will be manna.
Yes, that manna is inside of you. It's in each other. It's in our families. It's in our pets and our animals and all around us. Right. We're able to be nourished from the community within and without. And just so our listeners know when she says manna, that means food for us that are familiar with the Bible. We understand what that means. And if you're Jewish, you'll know what it means. But manna means food. So you will always be fed.
(01:09:08):
That's right. That's right. So whether it's an edible city, or edible, like a treed environment in the metaverse, or an incredible conversation, I am thankful that technology and innovation is what drives our humanity to be what it is and the possibility for the future.
(01:09:34):
So how can my listeners contact you? We usually give your website, your LinkedIn profile, but we talked about this before we went on the air. Go ahead and spell your name because they may not spell a page the way you do.
Sure. It's P-A-I-G-E in Dansinger. D-A-N-S as in Sam. I-N-G-E-R. And I'm easy to find. I'm easy to find on LinkedIn or Instagram or YouTube. YouTube.
(01:10:06):
yeah anywhere any social platform you like to be you can find me i'm also happy to meet you anytime in a virtual world whether it's web3 or vr i'm happy to meet you there as well as
I'm in love with working with brands, clients, museums. I'm actively holding space for more clients this year in 2025. And if you are a creator and want to just make something together, reach out. My username on most platforms is metaversepage. And I'm always open for collaboration
(01:10:55):
especially if it's about creating a better world. In fact, I just created a game with five other women about making a better world for ocean conservation called Spill to Sparkle, also presented at BitBasel.
Making a better world is something that's important to you. Creating games and ways to use technology to share that message and to create a movement. I would love to talk more. Please raise your hand. Well, I encourage all of my listeners to reach out to Paige. And if you're looking for her website, it was PaigeDancinger.com, just so you know. But you can Google her name. She shows up, I don't know, for like a number of website pages. So you'll find her for sure.
(01:11:44):
Paige, I want to tell you it's been delightful having you here as a guest. I'm so thankful that you were here and available and your show is going to be releasing in December. So I'm releasing several, you know, there's a bit of a backlog. That's why we're doing some of these live so that we can get them out there faster.
Well, thank you so much, Isabella Johnson. This has been an incredible honor and thank you to the Intern Whisperer community for joining us today and allowing me to share my story and my art together. Yeah, we don't have enough time to be able to get all of these great stories out. I feel like what you need to be having is some kind of a, if you don't have a Wiki page, something like that up there and have these as daily stories that people can follow.
(01:12:30):
I love your thinking Isabella. It's a delight to be in this industry together. And I hope that this conversation just leads to hundreds if not thousands more together. Thanks, Paige. You take care. Thank you. So welcome.
(01:12:59):
to the end of our show. We wanna thank you for being here and thank you to our sponsor, Cat5 Studios. Thank you to the music composer, Sophie Lloyd, and the Interim Whisper is brought to you by Employers for Change, helping hiring teams recruit and upscale interns to employees through mission, values, beliefs, and core skills. Learn more at www.e4c.tech. Subscribe to the Interim Whisper today and show your support by sharing our show, tagging a friend,
(01:13:29):
and leaving us comments. You can find the Intern Whisperer podcast on Employers for Change YouTube channel or streaming from your favorite podcast channel.
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