Sandra Hunter is the founder and lead coach at EmpowerHER. She is also a grief practitioner based in Portland, Oregon. In this episode, Sandra talks about grief, loss, especially epigenetic grief, and how that can "block" us. She also talks about compassionate leadership and why it is important at the workplace.
Sandra also shares her practice of using art as a way to express, externalize, and demonstrate feelings. "Give it a shape; it is less intimidating." Additionally, Sandra shares her connection to Iceland and how she uses her camera lens to capture the landscape of Diamond Beach.
Follow and work with Sandra:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandrahunter/
https://www.empowerhertorise.com/
Sandra will be speaking at multiple conferences in 2026:
International Leadership Association, Dialogue Labs, Tulane University, New Orleans, LA, Jan 30 - Feb 1
Healthy Worksite Summit, Seattle, WA Lynwood Convention Center, March 4-5.
International Death, Grief and Bereavement Conference, University of Wisconsin, LaCrosse, WI, June 1-3
Also, Sandra will be running another set of workshops at The Portland Grief House.Art as Release: Finding Home, a 4 part workshop series.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello everyone, welcome to The Intersection, a podcast program
about intersectionality, intersectional identities, and
intersectional journeys both professionally and personally.
And as we all know, they are very interconnected.
And I am your host and producer,Zhoufang.
(00:21):
Today we have another amazing guest coming here to share with
us their own journeys and stories and the learning along
the way. Please continue to listen and
find out more. Welcome.
Hello everyone, Welcome to the Intersection podcast program.
(00:41):
And this morning, I'm so thrilled because the guest I'm
having today, I have been askingher for a long time, I think
over a year and nothing that I'mhurt.
But she rejected me many times. And finally she said, oh fine,
(01:01):
fine, I'll do it. But in seriousness, I'm very
honored to have my Sandra and mySandra, my friend and my
colleague, Sandra Hunter to be here with us today.
She's the founder and lead consultant at Empower.
(01:26):
Her and Sandra and I met maybe acouple years ago also doing
people and cultural work. And then I think we met at like
a panel discussion or something.Yeah.
But I've been just very gratefuland feel blessed to have Sandra
in my life. So without overdue, I want to
(01:50):
invite Sandra to introduce herself and give us her story.
Welcome, Sandra. Thanks so much, Joe.
It's lovely to be here. And I just want to say that
putting you off for a year had less to do with you than to
understand what it was I was really doing instead of just
coming on and waffling about things is what am I doing in my
world? So I am an empowerment coach
(02:15):
primarily for women, and the idea in what I do is to help
people facing race and gender bias in the workplace that are
inhibiting, strangling and suppressing their ability to
move forward successfully in their careers.
And to do that, we start with understanding what underlies
(02:40):
those feelings because very often you arrive at feelings,
whether in grief or not in griefor just anxiety or intimidation
or frustration, and you're very aware of those feelings.
You know, I'm feeling frustratedbecause my boss won't consider
this promotional opportunity I want, but that's those feelings
(03:01):
are actually sourced and rooted much, much further back and
often have to do with back pocketed or delayed grief.
The thing about our lives is ourlives are really performative.
We're expected to reach certain standards in the professions
that we are engaged in. You know, otherwise we wouldn't
(03:24):
have been engaged in them in thefirst place.
So you have to reach these standards.
You have to, you know, you, you have to complete and present
projects, you have to continue to engage clients, expand your
client base. You're dealing with vendors and
collaborators and community partners.
And all of that is performative grief and loss, which is what
(03:50):
we're talking about. Those things that inhibit us
from actually moving forward. And grief, by the way, I just
want to say is, is about those large losses like, you know,
divorce or death or a medical diagnosis.
But it also includes things likemicroaggressions, being excluded
from a professional lunch and not having access to development
(04:15):
opportunities, being ghosted. Oh, for goodness sake, you know,
that's a big one. Think of all those people who
are sending out hundreds and hundreds of job applications and
never hearing back. Or getting the interview,
actually getting to the interview, and then never
hearing back. A friend of mine actually got
the interview, scored the job inthe interview, and then was
(04:35):
ghosted. Wow.
So, you know, all of those things can accumulate over time.
And the problem is if you don't actually address it when the,
you know, when the more dramaticgrief, if you think, if you want
to call it that, turns up, then it becomes an accumulation of
(04:56):
all the griefs that you haven't acknowledged or dealt with
before. And going back further than
that, the source of all of this is epigenetic grief.
So the griefs of our mothers andgrandmothers and great
grandmothers. And we often don't understand
that that's how we got where we are.
Why are we so inhibited? Why are we not having upward
(05:19):
influence? Why are we not, you know,
gaining those promotions? And why are we not succeeding?
Why do I always feel inhibited when I'm in a, you know, group
of people? And this can be traced back.
And the interesting thing now it's not just an emotional
claim. There's actually neurological
data that supports that. So if you have a tendency to be
(05:40):
hyper vigilant, there is actually an epigenome response
in your brain that goes back generations and that's why you
are where you are now. So it's really important that
you understand that in order foryou to, what we do is not
therapy, We're not sort of counselling people about how to,
that's a separate practice, which obviously you should do.
(06:05):
What we do is to say you need toknow about this because this is
part of who you are and this is also how you will gain strength
and centring and ability to movefurther forward.
Understanding that all those things that come at you, let's
take for example, microaggressions, understanding
(06:27):
that that's got nothing to do with you.
It has everything to do with theperson who is projecting their
bad feelings onto you. They've had, you know, something
else is going on with their Onceyou understand that it's not
directed at you, you can be far more proactive and logical and
creative about your career path.So that's basically what we do.
(06:51):
We also do a lot of intergenerational work which
looks at people who are retiringor approaching retirement in the
industry and having them mentor the incoming generation of young
people in their careers. That's cool.
So it has a lot of benefits. Obviously, you know, we reduce
(07:14):
the revolving door syndrome, we reduce onboarding, you know, the
costs of onboarding. And we actually start lining up
people to take over those managerial positions as part of
the professional family. And it not saying it is a
family, It's family. Like I know people like to
claim, oh, we're a family. You're not a family.
You're at work, OK. But there is a family like
(07:39):
tendency in grandfathering in young people who are coming in.
So they are mentored throughout their journey, their council,
throughout their journey with these people who are retiring.
And when you retire, I mean the the organization will lose a lot
of money anyway because all thatwisdom retirees take with them
has gone. Right.
(07:59):
Whereas you can legacy that in with mentorship and you know,
understanding the the roles of mentorship and sponsorship.
And so as the mentors, the the retirees get to know their
mentees coming in and bringing them in, they can teach their
mentees how to mentor in their term, the next generation that
(08:23):
comes in. So you have a kind of loop and
there's stability for the company.
Again, you know there's huge savings and you know the
benefits are and loyalty is unbelievable when you're when
you're bringing in mentors, mentees.
Also, let's say somebody in HR is mentoring a young person
(08:46):
coming in. Some you know this the, the
person who is mentoring is aboutto retire in say maybe 2 years
time and they start mentoring someone in and it this person
who's coming in does enjoy doingHR work, but they also have a
lot of technical skills that aren't being used.
And in that way, we can have lateral position fulfilment.
(09:10):
So it requires that mentors don't become siloed, that we
actually, you know, have a network and grounding and the
fact that, you know, people meetall the time to talk about
what's going on with their mentees and what strengths have
and how to, you know, what's themost successful cause for them.
(09:30):
So that's one of the, that's oneof the ones that we've been
doing. We're starting to do.
How I got here was because I taught in academia for about 19
years and I watched my, particularly my young female
students and so well credentialed, so alert and
(09:52):
bright and vivid and creative. And they'd score the interview,
get the job, and face the same race and gender bias that we've
all faced in generations, right?So then we have this suppression
and reduction of ability and brightness.
And then eventually the flame goes out and you either have
someone who's just putting in the hours or eventually leaving.
(10:16):
Huge loss to the organization aswell to the individual.
So it felt to me, you know, we have a massive gap between the
educational institution and the beginning of a young person's
career. What do we do to bridge that?
So the first thing, and again, you know, I'm going back to
mentorship, you know, which I'vejust talked about, but in the
beginning it was just, you know,at a university, you've got all
these resources you've got. And I wanted to use staff, not
(10:40):
faculty, all these staff, peoplewho have a wealth of information
and experience. So admin and custodial and
maintenance and operations, all those people would be fabulous
as mentors. And the idea was to link those
people up with their graduating students.
But as we started working with those people, we realised that
(11:02):
the damage that they had sustained over the years from
these biases in the workplace were deeply affecting them.
So it's OK. So let's stand back and start
looking at those people. And then we started working.
Things went gangbusters for a couple of years and then I
realised as I was following and monitoring what was happening
(11:25):
post programs, at the three months mark there was a steep
drop off. It was OK, So what is happening
there? Why?
Because everybody was so gung ho.
You know, now I've got the toolsand now I'm going to do this.
And off they went and they'd have a couple of people from the
programmes they'd still stayed in touch with.
But there was still this drop off.
(11:46):
And when I took a year off, which was the year when I, I was
not ready to talk about anything.
And after a lot of reading, including Resma Mannequin Bio,
Akuma Lafaye Francis, Mary Francis O'Connor, Isabel
Wilkerson, that was new to me, Irealised that this is the root
of everything was epigenetic grief.
(12:09):
So we revised everything last year.
And so now that's where we start.
And the work I'm doing now at the Grief House, and we'll be
starting with at the Lantern in March, both and based groups
will be focused on looking at epigenetic grief and mapping,
(12:29):
doing physical maps of your journey.
And it's not a linear journey ora linear map, it's circular and
it has offshoots and it runs offthe map at certain points.
It's just when you externalise these deeply rooted feelings,
you start to understand there isa shape to them.
(12:52):
And it doesn't mean you get overthis, you get over whatever
trauma you've been through in your childhood.
But by understanding where it comes from, understanding that
these women, these mothers, these grandmothers, these great
grandmothers who seem to be so difficult.
Many of us have difficult relationships with our mothers
(13:15):
and the other women in our family.
These women came through brutalisation, both physical and
emotional. And if we go far, far enough
back, particularly in America, we're going back to slavery from
where I come from, which is colonial.
And I know you have this in yourhistory too.
(13:36):
There's a lot of that as well sothat you have your identity
wrenched from you when you're when you're someone in that
position. We're going back generations
here, or maybe not so many generations.
I'm looking at my family. My family came from the spice
trade. Yeah.
So, you know, all those people, all the Dutch, all the
(13:58):
Portuguese, all the British, youknow, going round and looting
the spices from Indonesia and Malaysia and Sri Lanka and India
and, and, and they settled in all those areas.
So I have, my mother's maiden name is Van Dort.
Her mother was Portuguese. And so they have, you know, that
(14:18):
in they have that in their background that where they were
enslaved, they were they were brutalised.
But also in my history, I have the people who were the slavers,
right, who were the overseers. So they had the whip in their
hands. So both of those things are part
of my history. But it's understanding these
women who were so badly treated,all the delicacy and softness
(14:46):
was brutalized out of them. And they crawled on their elbows
to give birth to us. And in their bitter tears and in
their anger and their frustration, they held up all
that was left of the love that they had, which was bringing us
(15:08):
into the world and, you know, praying somehow that we would
step on their shoulders. So we are standing on the
shoulders of generations of women.
Yeah, I mean, that's a really powerful image, right?
And I feel like a lot of cultures have that kind of like
matriarchal history and culture.But The thing is, nowadays our
(15:36):
society is very patriarchal, so a lot of like matriarchs.
I mean, they were powerful, theywere strong, like you said.
At the same time, they are also erased or like invisible.
So how do we sit with that reality?
(15:59):
And perhaps the reality is that,like you mentioned, epigenetic
grief. And I do.
I like that question, you know, because we are at this point
and, you know, we talk about patriarchal systems and
paradigms, which is what we havenow in what we look at as power
(16:22):
systems and economic systems. And obviously, you know, holding
onto those systems means that, you know, whoever has the reins
on that has the power, but not necessarily the functionality.
Right, Right. Yeah, you're right.
And functionality is like, my understanding is those who are
(16:43):
actually doing the work, who areholding whatever this is up,
they are like, you know, mothersand grandmothers and aunties and
sisters still holding it up. They're the ones with the
networks. Who?
Who, you know, make sure that everyone's covered when
(17:03):
somebody, somebody's child gets sick and, you know, the mother
is working 9:00 to 5:00. I work within those systems
myself. When I was teaching, it was,
well, how are you making this work?
It's oh, you know, my next door neighbor is taking care of my
kids or, you know, somebody elseis taking my child to the
dentist while I'm at work. But I think this, you know, what
do we do? How does this change?
(17:25):
And we're in such a flux right now in this country and all over
the world. It's not just America, but I
think now more than ever is the time to talk about compassionate
leadership. So what does that look like?
You know, what do you what do you think of when you think of
compassionate leadership? Is that rhetoric or?
(17:47):
That's direct. I don't know.
I mean, I, I guess I shouldn't say I don't know.
I think my own version or understanding of compassionate
leadership is really to have that ability and capacity as
well to empathize. I mean, empathy and compassion
(18:12):
are not exactly the same thing. I do think they work hand in
hand. We need that sense of empathy to
be able to at least be curious and think about.
I wonder what it's like for them.
So as a leader, if we are not able to empathize, then we might
(18:33):
have a really hard time to understand what might be going
on in folks lives, right? And if we cannot see that, like
we don't need to know exactly what's going on, but we at least
need to have a sense that something is going on.
And from there we'll be able to practice compassion and feel for
(18:56):
them and actually want to act onit as well.
And I think that's that may be the foundation of compassionate
leadership. But of course, you know, what's
your version? No, I think.
That's that's a fabulous rendition of what of what, of
compassionate leadership. It does go back to drawing on
(19:17):
your own experience of loss and understanding that that too has
a place in the professional environment.
You cannot just cut, you know, we've watched this over, you
know, hundreds of years where people's, you know, we have a
place. We have our life at home and we
have our life at work. And those two things that are
(19:37):
completely separate, we do different things in those
arenas, but they are not separate.
They're not discreet. So when we talk about empathy,
which I think you did comprehensively, actually, you
said, you know, learning to be compassionate and empathy, I
(20:00):
agree, compassionate and empathyare two, they're adjacent.
Shall we say it? There's some implication of the
two, but they're not identical. Is.
Understanding that someone in grief who is in a performative
environment, whereas grief requires stillness and time,
there's a conflict there. So your, let's say one of your,
(20:27):
I don't know, your executives is, is responsible for client
liaison in some area or another.And for client liaison, it's not
just a matter of saying, OK, this is the project and these
are the components and this is what we're going to achieve is
how is that going to happen? So there is a a need for these
skills to read the other person,right?
(20:50):
So you're saying, OK, where are they with this?
How much further can we go in this particular timeline?
What's the end result? And you know, are we going to
meet the deadline? As a compassionate leader, you
will be able to see in your employees, you'll be able to
(21:11):
see, OK, something is not functioning here.
This person is behind in their deadlines.
You know, they're, they're not full, they're not approaching
their projects in the way that they usually do.
And that is that I think is compassionate leadership because
it's, it requires you to understand a whole as opposed to
a specific, a specific goal. And so you can apply
(21:35):
compassionate leadership, you know, not necessarily, as you
say, finding out all the, the, the, the, the details, but
understanding that somebody who is in grief is, is it's like
trying to play a harp while you're wearing gloves.
All of your sensitivities are blunted.
It feels like you're wrapped in,I don't know, bubble wrap and
(21:58):
nobody can get through to you and you can't get through to
anyone else. Having a compassionate leader
saying, I understand this, let'sbreak this down and understand
what is possible. Let's have something that you
that is possible for you to do so that we can work towards it.
So that's compassionate leadership on that level.
It also extends to your vendors,your consultants, your
(22:22):
suppliers, your contractors, your collaborators, your
community members. Now, you know, in, in a
professional sense, it's just, oh, well, I'll take care of
mine, you know, And so we feel very proud of the fact that
we're being compassionate leaders with our with our people
because that's who we we're focusing on.
Unless that lens is directed outto everybody you work with, you
(22:48):
are not actually engaging in compassionate leadership.
So your external partners may not have institutional support,
so they're more vulnerable if they're in loss.
And we often default to avoidance or over
(23:09):
professionalism. It's not my place, right?
But compassion doesn't violate boundaries, it grounds them.
So and if you have a supportive response, you improve what
trust, reliability, mutual respect, collaboration and which
(23:34):
is really important for the yourorganization is long term
relationship stability. I really like the the not a
statement, but the line. You just said compassion doesn't
violate boundaries, but can you strengthen them?
(23:56):
It yes, it strengthen it groundsthem because you're yeah you're
saying to this person I'm with you in this it's not here's your
part of the deal and here's my part of the deal and you haven't
fulfilled your part of the deal.It's just this is our deal
unless we're you know unless we're healthy together none of
(24:17):
this is going to work. And very often, you know, the
the setting of boundaries will be destructive.
It will deteriorate using that as a verb.
It will deteriorate the relationship.
Yeah, Yeah. I really appreciate that.
(24:39):
And I think that's actually a really hard thing to do,
especially in this individualistic society.
Everyone is like, I mean, everyone is like, I need to
protect my boundary. I need to protect my boundary.
But I guess everyone's boundary is different.
So how do you approach that? It is with compassion.
(25:03):
And it's kind of like, it almostfeels like communication matter.
Like how do you communicate that?
So obviously, you know, again, this stems from having that as
an innate practice in your own organization so that your own
people are aware. And I'm not saying that your own
(25:28):
organization, your own employeestake on more.
That's, that's not, you know, we're not going to heal the
other person by supporting them and doing their work.
What we're doing is extending how we see our collaborators and
partners and suppliers so that when something doesn't come
(25:49):
through on time, if something isn't working out, instead of
saying, well, that's it. You know, that's the contract's
over or you have this deadline, you know, you haven't met this
first deadline, but now you havethis deadline that doesn't
actually address the issue. We're not talking about solving
the issue. We're talking about naming the
issue. And once you name it, and of
(26:11):
course you don't do it in a, in a meeting in front of everybody,
it's, it's got to be more like aprivate conversation.
It's just, you know, it feels like something is not quite
working out for you. Can we can we identify what that
is and how do we break this downso that we can make these
components happen? Yeah, I, I think what you do
(26:38):
like on compassionate leadershipis really needed right now.
And to a lot of leaders, it's actually very scary cause a lot
of people, while they may understand what is compassion
and why it's important, it's just so hard for people to
(26:59):
actually do it 'cause it's, yeah, it's very tender and
uncomfortable. It is absolutely, but so is
conflict. That's true.
Right. So and we, we talk about
conflict resolution all the time.
This is, this is a little bit like this is obviously it's not
the same. But on the other hand, this is,
isn't this what leadership is about?
(27:21):
It's about somebody who understands the whole picture
and understands not just these immediate goals, but long term
goals, what do we want for our company and what do we want for
our communities. Because if all of that is drawn
in, and I think This is why the reshaping of leadership with
(27:43):
women very much taking a stronger role, a more prominent
role can lead to community success.
Understanding that it's not yourindividual quarterly return and
bottom line, but if everybody's quarterly return and bottom line
is being addressed, not solved or met, those are things that
(28:05):
obviously are up to the individual as well.
But if you have that in your network, then everybody's boat
rises. Yeah, no, I cannot agree more.
I want to touch on, I think definitely relevant to your work
(28:26):
in grief and epigenetic grief leadership, compassionate
leadership is that at empower Her and in your partnerships
with different organizations, I learned that you oftentimes use
art as a tool to express to process our grief.
(28:53):
Can you tell a little bit more about that?
I know you are a very autistic person.
You take photographs and you, I have one right here in my office
and you always wear these very vibrant colors and you have
very, you know, how do we say this cute little like animals
(29:18):
and artwork. So I see art throughout your
life and throughout your work. Can you help us connect the, you
know, relationship between art and processing our grief?
Sure. So when you are in grief, people
(29:40):
will advise you go to group therapy, go to see a counselor,
physiotherapist, and those are very important parts of your
grief journey or any journey. But when you're first in grief,
you don't have language, you have a maelstrom of feelings and
you have everything from anger and shame, bitterness,
(30:02):
resentment, feeling absolutely annihilated by the idea of
getting out of bed. None of that is formed.
It's just feeling. It's just an overwhelming
feeling. And and people will say, oh, I
see that you're grieving or I see that you're sad and you're
(30:22):
not sad at that moment, you're furious.
So it's all internalised at thatpoint and you can't get it out.
And here's the drawback with going to group therapy too
quickly. You sit in a circle and
everybody talks and all you willbe thinking is about, Oh my God,
(30:44):
it's going to be my turn to say something.
And so you might appropriate another phrase or deliver
something that you feel other people want you to say.
So there is pressure on you to articulate before you're ready
to articulate. And art, on the other hand,
(31:05):
whether it's drawing, it could be writing as well.
It doesn't have to be drawing orpainting or collage or knitting
or crocheting or making clay figures or anything.
People have made little villagesactually like little 3D
villages. It helps to externalise those
feelings and give shape to thosefeelings without actually having
(31:27):
to talk about it. And in the work that we do both
at the Grief House and at The Lantern, is You start with a
prompt or you start with a feeling.
You might not know where that feeling is.
It could grow into a multi pronged hydra of feelings.
It could be blank or numb, but it's a beginning to externalise
(31:50):
what is going on inside. Once you start giving it a
shape, a couple of things happen.
One, it's less intimidating and secondly, you can see how this
grief is going to be part of your life.
You're not going to get over it,people.
(32:12):
That terrible phrase, get over it.
Pull yourself together. You don't get over losing
somebody you love or losing a job that you love.
People can be in grief for a long time, losing a job, but you
understand it more and sometimesit will be very quiet and
sometimes it's very loud. But when it happens, you are in
much a much more stabilized position to understand what's
(32:38):
going on instead of being throwninto panic and being overwhelmed
by the feeling of grief. So grief is when we talk about
the singular area in the brain, which is right next to the
hippocampus, the singular area, it processes pain, the actual
pain, whether it's emotional pain or physical pain.
(32:59):
But it also is how you process the memory associated with
someone who's lost, you've lost.And if that is denied or ignored
or suppressed it it literally damages and atrophies the
singulum, or the singulum I believe it's called.
(33:22):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
I mean, I think about folks who,I mean, you mentioned, right?
Art is not just a painting. It's not just music.
It's not just literature. Art can take so many forms.
(33:43):
And that reminds me of something, you know, I think
sometimes we seeing children, some children maybe they are
kind of like late in speaking, but they are very early on
expressing. Like they would draw, they would
make Legos. They would, you know, using art
forms to express their feelings,while they might not be able to
(34:08):
name it or like find the right words to describe it.
And I think that makes a lot of sense because when you say, when
you give these feeling a shape, it's less scary.
Yeah. And I can't imagine, you know,
thinking back, I, I wish I had that kind of tool throw out my
(34:32):
childhood. But I think that's.
Yeah, that's a really good kind of illustration of how arts can
help us process grief. And, and it also leads to what
what we do is when we do this, it's not a show and tell.
(34:52):
Everybody demonstrates what they've done at the end of the
of the session when they when they've made their pieces, but
we split into partners. So and the partners.
So in twos you go into differentparts of the, of the, of the
greenhouse. It's a house at the Lantern.
It's this large converted churchinto an arts phase, But you go
(35:14):
privately and you exchange work with that one other person.
And when the other person gets your piece, let's just say you
and I exchanged something. You have put together a collage
of photos from your phone and they express a loss for you.
And I have. I've written a poem, let's say,
(35:38):
and we exchange work. And so I will look at your
photos. I'm not going to say, oh, oh, I
can see your grief here or I understand why you you tell me
about why you came to this and what are you trying to express?
I will say thank you for this photograph of the ocean because
it reminds me of the colour of acardigan my mother used to wear.
(35:59):
Well, thank you for this pictureof this Blackbird because it
reminds me of the time when I left my house to move to another
city. As the moving truck was pulling
out of the driveway, I saw a black bird in the hedge.
So I'm going to give my responseto your work and I'm going to
talk about the feelings it evokes in me.
(36:20):
And then you will read my you will read my poem to me.
But hopefully you can understandmy writing, but with your
intonation, your stress, your pitch, your volume, your
hesitation, you're asking me what on earth is this word?
Because I don't know what it means.
And when you read it back to me like this, it gives me a new
opening of understanding into mypoem.
(36:43):
The whole point of this is that we see each other in this
extremely vulnerable place of integrity.
This is who you are. This is who I am.
So that by the end of the time that we spent together, whether
it's the, you know, a month or what maybe it's just one session
(37:05):
that you come in for, you will see yourself as this person, as
the creator of great beauty. And you also possess that great
beauty in yourself so that the microaggressions that come at
you belong to other people. They don't belong to you because
it's who you are. You are not who other people say
(37:25):
you are. I really love that.
I mean, that's really powerful. At the same time, it's very
gentle as well. It's not like here, there you
go. Like I'm not throwing this in
your face, but I am offering it to you and you can share your
interpretation with me, but I'm not gonna no pressure, right?
(37:46):
It's like I'm not gonna pressingyou on that.
At the same time, it is a powerful exchange of expressions
and feelings. Speaking of expressions and arts
and visual arts, et cetera. I know.
(38:09):
I mean, like mentioned, I have aphotograph from you that you
took last year, I think in Iceland and you've gone back
this year. I mean, Iceland is on my bucket
list for sure. And the photos you've taken and
shown us are very otherworldly or breathtaking.
(38:31):
I mean it looks cold it. Was.
But I'm really curious, like, what is it about Iceland that
just keeps you going back? And my sense is it does ground
you. So tell me, maybe tell us a
(38:52):
little bit about how travel or seeing the world has helped you.
OK, so there's a couple of things going on here.
First, Iceland and secondly travel.
So I'll, I'll address Iceland first.
(39:14):
Specifically for me has been theattraction has been Diamond
Beach, which is a black lava sand beach, which is connected
by a channel kind of a river to a large lagoon called Yokosalem.
And behind the lagoon is the glacier.
The glacier carves parts into that lagoon which then circulate
(39:37):
and are channelled out into the ocean.
The ocean pounds them and throwsthem back onto the sand.
So you get these extraordinary jewel like sculptures on the
sand. It's really amazing and I've
been interested in ICE for a number of years now, since 2012
(39:59):
I think. And the thing about ice is that
it looks so solid and it isn't. It's ephemeral and eternal at
the same time. It it mutates constantly.
You have the first freeze in thewinter.
I'm thinking about outside of ice and now you have the first
(40:19):
freeze of the winter and then there's always a temperature
change. And in that temperature change
something happens. There's a slight melting and a
reformation. And that's the moment that's
just so fascinating that change occurs under these microscopic
moments. And there's there's a physics
(40:46):
theorem that is if practicum actually you with the purest of
water, it's freezing point is way below 0.
Yeah, I heard that. But if you add impurities, which
is what happens in ice, then theformation starts and you get all
these extraordinary things. So that floor becomes beauty.
(41:11):
And I just think that's incredible that it's, it's
something that is there for a very limited period of time.
So the photographs I've taken onDiamond Beach, those pieces will
be gone maybe a couple of weeks if if they last that long.
That's beautiful. So that it feels very much like
(41:31):
the human experience of, you know, things that are so painful
and difficult do change, You know, our perspective on them
changes. Like my perspective on my
brother's death, he died last year is different now.
When I first was frozen by it, when I, when I first, when I
(41:52):
first got to encounter it. And in travel, when you have
mixed heritage like I do, which is Sri Lankan, Portuguese,
Dutch, Anglo Indian and Scots, you are, you tend to live in
liminal space. And so travel makes you far more
observant and absorptive of those places that are, you know,
(42:17):
that are new to you, but that you can also make connections
with. And that also is ephemeral
because I, I went to Iceland in 2019.
I went back last year and I wentthis year and it was different
each time, of course. So it's, it's a combination of
the actual thing itself. Let's just take ice as an
(42:39):
example. For somebody else, it might be
portraiture and the self that isconstantly changing.
So that it's not that your griefchanges, the loss is the loss,
but you go through change and become more compassion.
This is the gift of grief. Is that your compassion just
(43:02):
deepens and deepens and widens and widens so that you know your
capacity for compassionate leadership just is limitless?
I really appreciate that. And of course it, I mean the way
you describe Iceland and your experience with travel and how
(43:22):
can that shape you and reshape you as a person?
It's beautiful, right? It's dynamic and it's fluid,
like it flows as we grow as a person.
I think that part is really beautiful.
And I also think, you know, whenyou mentioned the gift of grief,
it's not that the grief changes,but our capacity change.
(43:47):
And that reminds me of somethingI heard recently is that people,
so this this therapist, it's a it's a therapist, I believe they
said these days people really advocate for protect my mental
health. Like people say that a lot.
(44:08):
And from their perspective, sure, it's valid.
We do need to protect our mentalhealth.
At the same time, it's so overlyused and they and they think
maybe a better way to address this mental health or or
Wellness issue that we have. This is yes, protect and expand
(44:31):
our mental capacity. Absolutely.
I love that. Yeah.
And I think what you just said really kind of reminds me of
that. And I was like, that really
makes sense. So it's, you know, if we look at
the, the, the, the corollary between art and leadership, as
(44:53):
an artist, you have to keep changing.
You have to keep morphing. Even if you as an artist take a
picture of the same place every day for a year, there will
always be change. So it's change, it's
adaptability and flexibility. That's how we've evolved because
of those attributes being able to be flexible and to absorb and
(45:15):
and reflect change. You also have to be, as you
mentioned, in this expansive andvulnerable place, you have to
take the risk, right? And so to, you know, safe
leadership just is an oxymoron. It cannot, it cannot be, it has
to be risk taking. And so this risk of being
(45:37):
saying, OK, I'm going to be vulnerable with my people, with
myself, with my partners and collaborators and vendors.
That's part of being an extraordinary leader, just as
much as artists taking these risks and thinking about all the
people that I know, the dear friends that I know who are
(45:58):
artists constantly taking risks.That's how you make amazing art
and how you begin to be more expansive and more in the world
and more knowledgeable about what you're exploring and
growing yourself to a place where you understand that that
(46:22):
that art, the art of growing, isthe the central part of
humanity. Oh gosh, that is really wise.
And I think that's something fora lot of us is like a lifetime
journey. And yeah, so as we near kind of
(46:44):
the end of our conversation, andI mean, I'm learning a lot.
And every time I talk with you, Sandra, I feel like, OK, I'm,
I'm getting a class here. And at the same time, it's not
like a lecture, you know, it's, it's very, it's very nurturing
and it's very illuminating at the same time.
(47:07):
So thank you very much. And.
Yeah, and of course we want morepeople to know about your work
and learn from you and work withyou.
Tell us where people can find you.
So a few things coming up. You can reach me at my website,
(47:28):
empower her to rise.com. I'm also on LinkedIn.
I'll be talking about compassionate leadership at the
International Leadership Conference in New Orleans at the
end of January, which will be really.
I'm. Very much looking forward to
that. And also at the Healthy Work
(47:51):
Site Summit in March in Washington, I'll be talking
about the illusion of control and the fear of falling apart.
And then in June, I'll be at Wisconsin, the University of
Wisconsin, talking again about, you know, grief and the fear of
falling apart. So there's a few things coming.
(48:12):
Up. That's fantastic.
Yeah. We'll have to list the
engagements, the speaking engagements you have as well so
that folks can find you. And I'm just really grateful
that, you know, you come here today and I know you came back
from Iceland recently. And of course, travel is also
(48:34):
very tiring. So I appreciate you giving us
this time today. Thank.
You. Yeah.
I just want, I just want to hop in Joe and say I've been
watching this podcast when it was a very fledgling little
thing and you've grown it into this powerful, illuminating,
generous and and inclusive platform for so many people
(48:59):
whose voices would not be heard were it not for you.
So I just want to say how grateful we are for the work
that you're doing. If this.
I just want to speak to your listeners right now.
This is one woman who walks the walk.
She doesn't just talk about stuff, she practices it.
So when we talk about intersectionality, you will find
(49:20):
her in the woods with her dog going on hikes.
You will, this is not, not a practice camper, but she will
put herself out there and I go camping.
This is not somebody who is naturally putting herself out
there for everybody. There's a little, you know, a
little reticence sometimes, but because of the work that you're
doing, you are practicing it. And we so appreciate that
(49:42):
honesty and that love that you give to the work.
Thank you. I feel seen.
I appreciate that. Yeah.
For people out there, please, you know, give our podcast some
love and contact our guests on this program because every
(50:07):
single one comes here giving us a gift.
And and that's generosity. And I think that's, you know,
community care and love. And we do not take that for
granted. Wow.
OK with that. And I'm gonna say I'll see you
(50:29):
soon, Sandra. Thank you very much.
OK. Thank you so much, Joe.
Yeah, thank you for listening totoday's episode of The
Intersection. We hope you enjoyed it and if
you like our program, please subscribe and recommend it to
your friends and family. Our original music is created by
my friend Kel Van Zon and I am your host and producer Joe Fung.
(50:54):
See you next time and take care.
Hello everyone, welcome to The Intersection, a podcast program
about intersectionality, intersectional identities, and
intersectional journeys both professionally and personally.
And as we all know, they are very interconnected.
And I am your host and producer,Zhoufang.
(00:21):
Today we have another amazing guest coming here to share with
us their own journeys and stories and the learning along
the way. Please continue to listen and
find out more. Welcome.
Hello everyone, Welcome to the Intersection podcast program.
(00:41):
And this morning, I'm so thrilled because the guest I'm
having today, I have been askingher for a long time, I think
over a year and nothing that I'mhurt.
But she rejected me many times. And finally she said, oh fine,
(01:01):
fine, I'll do it. But in seriousness, I'm very
honored to have my Sandra and mySandra, my friend and my
colleague, Sandra Hunter to be here with us today.
She's the founder and lead consultant at Empower.
(01:26):
Her and Sandra and I met maybe acouple years ago also doing
people and cultural work. And then I think we met at like
a panel discussion or something.Yeah.
But I've been just very gratefuland feel blessed to have Sandra
in my life. So without overdue, I want to
(01:50):
invite Sandra to introduce herself and give us her story.
Welcome, Sandra. Thanks so much, Joe.
It's lovely to be here. And I just want to say that
putting you off for a year had less to do with you than to
understand what it was I was really doing instead of just
coming on and waffling about things is what am I doing in my
world? So I am an empowerment coach
(02:15):
primarily for women, and the idea in what I do is to help
people facing race and gender bias in the workplace that are
inhibiting, strangling and suppressing their ability to
move forward successfully in their careers.
And to do that, we start with understanding what underlies
(02:40):
those feelings because very often you arrive at feelings,
whether in grief or not in griefor just anxiety or intimidation
or frustration, and you're very aware of those feelings.
You know, I'm feeling frustratedbecause my boss won't consider
this promotional opportunity I want, but that's those feelings
(03:01):
are actually sourced and rooted much, much further back and
often have to do with back pocketed or delayed grief.
The thing about our lives is ourlives are really performative.
We're expected to reach certain standards in the professions
that we are engaged in. You know, otherwise we wouldn't
(03:24):
have been engaged in them in thefirst place.
So you have to reach these standards.
You have to, you know, you, you have to complete and present
projects, you have to continue to engage clients, expand your
client base. You're dealing with vendors and
collaborators and community partners.
And all of that is performative grief and loss, which is what
(03:50):
we're talking about. Those things that inhibit us
from actually moving forward. And grief, by the way, I just
want to say is, is about those large losses like, you know,
divorce or death or a medical diagnosis.
But it also includes things likemicroaggressions, being excluded
from a professional lunch and not having access to development
(04:15):
opportunities, being ghosted. Oh, for goodness sake, you know,
that's a big one. Think of all those people who
are sending out hundreds and hundreds of job applications and
never hearing back. Or getting the interview,
actually getting to the interview, and then never
hearing back. A friend of mine actually got
the interview, scored the job inthe interview, and then was
(04:35):
ghosted. Wow.
So, you know, all of those things can accumulate over time.
And the problem is if you don't actually address it when the,
you know, when the more dramaticgrief, if you think, if you want
to call it that, turns up, then it becomes an accumulation of
(04:56):
all the griefs that you haven't acknowledged or dealt with
before. And going back further than
that, the source of all of this is epigenetic grief.
So the griefs of our mothers andgrandmothers and great
grandmothers. And we often don't understand
that that's how we got where we are.
Why are we so inhibited? Why are we not having upward
(05:19):
influence? Why are we not, you know,
gaining those promotions? And why are we not succeeding?
Why do I always feel inhibited when I'm in a, you know, group
of people? And this can be traced back.
And the interesting thing now it's not just an emotional
claim. There's actually neurological
data that supports that. So if you have a tendency to be
(05:40):
hyper vigilant, there is actually an epigenome response
in your brain that goes back generations and that's why you
are where you are now. So it's really important that
you understand that in order foryou to, what we do is not
therapy, We're not sort of counselling people about how to,
that's a separate practice, which obviously you should do.
(06:05):
What we do is to say you need toknow about this because this is
part of who you are and this is also how you will gain strength
and centring and ability to movefurther forward.
Understanding that all those things that come at you, let's
take for example, microaggressions, understanding
(06:27):
that that's got nothing to do with you.
It has everything to do with theperson who is projecting their
bad feelings onto you. They've had, you know, something
else is going on with their Onceyou understand that it's not
directed at you, you can be far more proactive and logical and
creative about your career path.So that's basically what we do.
(06:51):
We also do a lot of intergenerational work which
looks at people who are retiringor approaching retirement in the
industry and having them mentor the incoming generation of young
people in their careers. That's cool.
So it has a lot of benefits. Obviously, you know, we reduce
(07:14):
the revolving door syndrome, we reduce onboarding, you know, the
costs of onboarding. And we actually start lining up
people to take over those managerial positions as part of
the professional family. And it not saying it is a
family, It's family. Like I know people like to
claim, oh, we're a family. You're not a family.
You're at work, OK. But there is a family like
(07:39):
tendency in grandfathering in young people who are coming in.
So they are mentored throughout their journey, their council,
throughout their journey with these people who are retiring.
And when you retire, I mean the the organization will lose a lot
of money anyway because all thatwisdom retirees take with them
has gone. Right.
(07:59):
Whereas you can legacy that in with mentorship and you know,
understanding the the roles of mentorship and sponsorship.
And so as the mentors, the the retirees get to know their
mentees coming in and bringing them in, they can teach their
mentees how to mentor in their term, the next generation that
(08:23):
comes in. So you have a kind of loop and
there's stability for the company.
Again, you know there's huge savings and you know the
benefits are and loyalty is unbelievable when you're when
you're bringing in mentors, mentees.
Also, let's say somebody in HR is mentoring a young person
(08:46):
coming in. Some you know this the, the
person who is mentoring is aboutto retire in say maybe 2 years
time and they start mentoring someone in and it this person
who's coming in does enjoy doingHR work, but they also have a
lot of technical skills that aren't being used.
And in that way, we can have lateral position fulfilment.
(09:10):
So it requires that mentors don't become siloed, that we
actually, you know, have a network and grounding and the
fact that, you know, people meetall the time to talk about
what's going on with their mentees and what strengths have
and how to, you know, what's themost successful cause for them.
(09:30):
So that's one of the, that's oneof the ones that we've been
doing. We're starting to do.
How I got here was because I taught in academia for about 19
years and I watched my, particularly my young female
students and so well credentialed, so alert and
(09:52):
bright and vivid and creative. And they'd score the interview,
get the job, and face the same race and gender bias that we've
all faced in generations, right?So then we have this suppression
and reduction of ability and brightness.
And then eventually the flame goes out and you either have
someone who's just putting in the hours or eventually leaving.
(10:16):
Huge loss to the organization aswell to the individual.
So it felt to me, you know, we have a massive gap between the
educational institution and the beginning of a young person's
career. What do we do to bridge that?
So the first thing, and again, you know, I'm going back to
mentorship, you know, which I'vejust talked about, but in the
beginning it was just, you know,at a university, you've got all
these resources you've got. And I wanted to use staff, not
(10:40):
faculty, all these staff, peoplewho have a wealth of information
and experience. So admin and custodial and
maintenance and operations, all those people would be fabulous
as mentors. And the idea was to link those
people up with their graduating students.
But as we started working with those people, we realised that
(11:02):
the damage that they had sustained over the years from
these biases in the workplace were deeply affecting them.
So it's OK. So let's stand back and start
looking at those people. And then we started working.
Things went gangbusters for a couple of years and then I
realised as I was following and monitoring what was happening
(11:25):
post programs, at the three months mark there was a steep
drop off. It was OK, So what is happening
there? Why?
Because everybody was so gung ho.
You know, now I've got the toolsand now I'm going to do this.
And off they went and they'd have a couple of people from the
programmes they'd still stayed in touch with.
But there was still this drop off.
(11:46):
And when I took a year off, which was the year when I, I was
not ready to talk about anything.
And after a lot of reading, including Resma Mannequin Bio,
Akuma Lafaye Francis, Mary Francis O'Connor, Isabel
Wilkerson, that was new to me, Irealised that this is the root
of everything was epigenetic grief.
(12:09):
So we revised everything last year.
And so now that's where we start.
And the work I'm doing now at the Grief House, and we'll be
starting with at the Lantern in March, both and based groups
will be focused on looking at epigenetic grief and mapping,
(12:29):
doing physical maps of your journey.
And it's not a linear journey ora linear map, it's circular and
it has offshoots and it runs offthe map at certain points.
It's just when you externalise these deeply rooted feelings,
you start to understand there isa shape to them.
(12:52):
And it doesn't mean you get overthis, you get over whatever
trauma you've been through in your childhood.
But by understanding where it comes from, understanding that
these women, these mothers, these grandmothers, these great
grandmothers who seem to be so difficult.
Many of us have difficult relationships with our mothers
(13:15):
and the other women in our family.
These women came through brutalisation, both physical and
emotional. And if we go far, far enough
back, particularly in America, we're going back to slavery from
where I come from, which is colonial.
And I know you have this in yourhistory too.
(13:36):
There's a lot of that as well sothat you have your identity
wrenched from you when you're when you're someone in that
position. We're going back generations
here, or maybe not so many generations.
I'm looking at my family. My family came from the spice
trade. Yeah.
So, you know, all those people, all the Dutch, all the
(13:58):
Portuguese, all the British, youknow, going round and looting
the spices from Indonesia and Malaysia and Sri Lanka and India
and, and, and they settled in all those areas.
So I have, my mother's maiden name is Van Dort.
Her mother was Portuguese. And so they have, you know, that
(14:18):
in they have that in their background that where they were
enslaved, they were they were brutalised.
But also in my history, I have the people who were the slavers,
right, who were the overseers. So they had the whip in their
hands. So both of those things are part
of my history. But it's understanding these
women who were so badly treated,all the delicacy and softness
(14:46):
was brutalized out of them. And they crawled on their elbows
to give birth to us. And in their bitter tears and in
their anger and their frustration, they held up all
that was left of the love that they had, which was bringing us
(15:08):
into the world and, you know, praying somehow that we would
step on their shoulders. So we are standing on the
shoulders of generations of women.
Yeah, I mean, that's a really powerful image, right?
And I feel like a lot of cultures have that kind of like
matriarchal history and culture.But The thing is, nowadays our
(15:36):
society is very patriarchal, so a lot of like matriarchs.
I mean, they were powerful, theywere strong, like you said.
At the same time, they are also erased or like invisible.
So how do we sit with that reality?
(15:59):
And perhaps the reality is that,like you mentioned, epigenetic
grief. And I do.
I like that question, you know, because we are at this point
and, you know, we talk about patriarchal systems and
paradigms, which is what we havenow in what we look at as power
(16:22):
systems and economic systems. And obviously, you know, holding
onto those systems means that, you know, whoever has the reins
on that has the power, but not necessarily the functionality.
Right, Right. Yeah, you're right.
And functionality is like, my understanding is those who are
(16:43):
actually doing the work, who areholding whatever this is up,
they are like, you know, mothersand grandmothers and aunties and
sisters still holding it up. They're the ones with the
networks. Who?
Who, you know, make sure that everyone's covered when
(17:03):
somebody, somebody's child gets sick and, you know, the mother
is working 9:00 to 5:00. I work within those systems
myself. When I was teaching, it was,
well, how are you making this work?
It's oh, you know, my next door neighbor is taking care of my
kids or, you know, somebody elseis taking my child to the
dentist while I'm at work. But I think this, you know, what
do we do? How does this change?
(17:25):
And we're in such a flux right now in this country and all over
the world. It's not just America, but I
think now more than ever is the time to talk about compassionate
leadership. So what does that look like?
You know, what do you what do you think of when you think of
compassionate leadership? Is that rhetoric or?
(17:47):
That's direct. I don't know.
I mean, I, I guess I shouldn't say I don't know.
I think my own version or understanding of compassionate
leadership is really to have that ability and capacity as
well to empathize. I mean, empathy and compassion
(18:12):
are not exactly the same thing. I do think they work hand in
hand. We need that sense of empathy to
be able to at least be curious and think about.
I wonder what it's like for them.
So as a leader, if we are not able to empathize, then we might
(18:33):
have a really hard time to understand what might be going
on in folks lives, right? And if we cannot see that, like
we don't need to know exactly what's going on, but we at least
need to have a sense that something is going on.
And from there we'll be able to practice compassion and feel for
(18:56):
them and actually want to act onit as well.
And I think that's that may be the foundation of compassionate
leadership. But of course, you know, what's
your version? No, I think.
That's that's a fabulous rendition of what of what, of
compassionate leadership. It does go back to drawing on
(19:17):
your own experience of loss and understanding that that too has
a place in the professional environment.
You cannot just cut, you know, we've watched this over, you
know, hundreds of years where people's, you know, we have a
place. We have our life at home and we
have our life at work. And those two things that are
(19:37):
completely separate, we do different things in those
arenas, but they are not separate.
They're not discreet. So when we talk about empathy,
which I think you did comprehensively, actually, you
said, you know, learning to be compassionate and empathy, I
(20:00):
agree, compassionate and empathyare two, they're adjacent.
Shall we say it? There's some implication of the
two, but they're not identical. Is.
Understanding that someone in grief who is in a performative
environment, whereas grief requires stillness and time,
there's a conflict there. So your, let's say one of your,
(20:27):
I don't know, your executives is, is responsible for client
liaison in some area or another.And for client liaison, it's not
just a matter of saying, OK, this is the project and these
are the components and this is what we're going to achieve is
how is that going to happen? So there is a a need for these
skills to read the other person,right?
(20:50):
So you're saying, OK, where are they with this?
How much further can we go in this particular timeline?
What's the end result? And you know, are we going to
meet the deadline? As a compassionate leader, you
will be able to see in your employees, you'll be able to
(21:11):
see, OK, something is not functioning here.
This person is behind in their deadlines.
You know, they're, they're not full, they're not approaching
their projects in the way that they usually do.
And that is that I think is compassionate leadership because
it's, it requires you to understand a whole as opposed to
a specific, a specific goal. And so you can apply
(21:35):
compassionate leadership, you know, not necessarily, as you
say, finding out all the, the, the, the, the details, but
understanding that somebody who is in grief is, is it's like
trying to play a harp while you're wearing gloves.
All of your sensitivities are blunted.
It feels like you're wrapped in,I don't know, bubble wrap and
(21:58):
nobody can get through to you and you can't get through to
anyone else. Having a compassionate leader
saying, I understand this, let'sbreak this down and understand
what is possible. Let's have something that you
that is possible for you to do so that we can work towards it.
So that's compassionate leadership on that level.
It also extends to your vendors,your consultants, your
(22:22):
suppliers, your contractors, your collaborators, your
community members. Now, you know, in, in a
professional sense, it's just, oh, well, I'll take care of
mine, you know, And so we feel very proud of the fact that
we're being compassionate leaders with our with our people
because that's who we we're focusing on.
Unless that lens is directed outto everybody you work with, you
(22:48):
are not actually engaging in compassionate leadership.
So your external partners may not have institutional support,
so they're more vulnerable if they're in loss.
And we often default to avoidance or over
(23:09):
professionalism. It's not my place, right?
But compassion doesn't violate boundaries, it grounds them.
So and if you have a supportive response, you improve what
trust, reliability, mutual respect, collaboration and which
(23:34):
is really important for the yourorganization is long term
relationship stability. I really like the the not a
statement, but the line. You just said compassion doesn't
violate boundaries, but can you strengthen them?
(23:56):
It yes, it strengthen it groundsthem because you're yeah you're
saying to this person I'm with you in this it's not here's your
part of the deal and here's my part of the deal and you haven't
fulfilled your part of the deal.It's just this is our deal
unless we're you know unless we're healthy together none of
(24:17):
this is going to work. And very often, you know, the
the setting of boundaries will be destructive.
It will deteriorate using that as a verb.
It will deteriorate the relationship.
Yeah, Yeah. I really appreciate that.
(24:39):
And I think that's actually a really hard thing to do,
especially in this individualistic society.
Everyone is like, I mean, everyone is like, I need to
protect my boundary. I need to protect my boundary.
But I guess everyone's boundary is different.
So how do you approach that? It is with compassion.
(25:03):
And it's kind of like, it almostfeels like communication matter.
Like how do you communicate that?
So obviously, you know, again, this stems from having that as
an innate practice in your own organization so that your own
people are aware. And I'm not saying that your own
(25:28):
organization, your own employeestake on more.
That's, that's not, you know, we're not going to heal the
other person by supporting them and doing their work.
What we're doing is extending how we see our collaborators and
partners and suppliers so that when something doesn't come
(25:49):
through on time, if something isn't working out, instead of
saying, well, that's it. You know, that's the contract's
over or you have this deadline, you know, you haven't met this
first deadline, but now you havethis deadline that doesn't
actually address the issue. We're not talking about solving
the issue. We're talking about naming the
issue. And once you name it, and of
(26:11):
course you don't do it in a, in a meeting in front of everybody,
it's, it's got to be more like aprivate conversation.
It's just, you know, it feels like something is not quite
working out for you. Can we can we identify what that
is and how do we break this downso that we can make these
components happen? Yeah, I, I think what you do
(26:38):
like on compassionate leadershipis really needed right now.
And to a lot of leaders, it's actually very scary cause a lot
of people, while they may understand what is compassion
and why it's important, it's just so hard for people to
(26:59):
actually do it 'cause it's, yeah, it's very tender and
uncomfortable. It is absolutely, but so is
conflict. That's true.
Right. So and we, we talk about
conflict resolution all the time.
This is, this is a little bit like this is obviously it's not
the same. But on the other hand, this is,
isn't this what leadership is about?
(27:21):
It's about somebody who understands the whole picture
and understands not just these immediate goals, but long term
goals, what do we want for our company and what do we want for
our communities. Because if all of that is drawn
in, and I think This is why the reshaping of leadership with
(27:43):
women very much taking a stronger role, a more prominent
role can lead to community success.
Understanding that it's not yourindividual quarterly return and
bottom line, but if everybody's quarterly return and bottom line
is being addressed, not solved or met, those are things that
(28:05):
obviously are up to the individual as well.
But if you have that in your network, then everybody's boat
rises. Yeah, no, I cannot agree more.
I want to touch on, I think definitely relevant to your work
(28:26):
in grief and epigenetic grief leadership, compassionate
leadership is that at empower Her and in your partnerships
with different organizations, I learned that you oftentimes use
art as a tool to express to process our grief.
(28:53):
Can you tell a little bit more about that?
I know you are a very autistic person.
You take photographs and you, I have one right here in my office
and you always wear these very vibrant colors and you have
very, you know, how do we say this cute little like animals
(29:18):
and artwork. So I see art throughout your
life and throughout your work. Can you help us connect the, you
know, relationship between art and processing our grief?
Sure. So when you are in grief, people
(29:40):
will advise you go to group therapy, go to see a counselor,
physiotherapist, and those are very important parts of your
grief journey or any journey. But when you're first in grief,
you don't have language, you have a maelstrom of feelings and
you have everything from anger and shame, bitterness,
(30:02):
resentment, feeling absolutely annihilated by the idea of
getting out of bed. None of that is formed.
It's just feeling. It's just an overwhelming
feeling. And and people will say, oh, I
see that you're grieving or I see that you're sad and you're
(30:22):
not sad at that moment, you're furious.
So it's all internalised at thatpoint and you can't get it out.
And here's the drawback with going to group therapy too
quickly. You sit in a circle and
everybody talks and all you willbe thinking is about, Oh my God,
(30:44):
it's going to be my turn to say something.
And so you might appropriate another phrase or deliver
something that you feel other people want you to say.
So there is pressure on you to articulate before you're ready
to articulate. And art, on the other hand,
(31:05):
whether it's drawing, it could be writing as well.
It doesn't have to be drawing orpainting or collage or knitting
or crocheting or making clay figures or anything.
People have made little villagesactually like little 3D
villages. It helps to externalise those
feelings and give shape to thosefeelings without actually having
(31:27):
to talk about it. And in the work that we do both
at the Grief House and at The Lantern, is You start with a
prompt or you start with a feeling.
You might not know where that feeling is.
It could grow into a multi pronged hydra of feelings.
It could be blank or numb, but it's a beginning to externalise
(31:50):
what is going on inside. Once you start giving it a
shape, a couple of things happen.
One, it's less intimidating and secondly, you can see how this
grief is going to be part of your life.
You're not going to get over it,people.
(32:12):
That terrible phrase, get over it.
Pull yourself together. You don't get over losing
somebody you love or losing a job that you love.
People can be in grief for a long time, losing a job, but you
understand it more and sometimesit will be very quiet and
sometimes it's very loud. But when it happens, you are in
much a much more stabilized position to understand what's
(32:38):
going on instead of being throwninto panic and being overwhelmed
by the feeling of grief. So grief is when we talk about
the singular area in the brain, which is right next to the
hippocampus, the singular area, it processes pain, the actual
pain, whether it's emotional pain or physical pain.
(32:59):
But it also is how you process the memory associated with
someone who's lost, you've lost.And if that is denied or ignored
or suppressed it it literally damages and atrophies the
singulum, or the singulum I believe it's called.
(33:22):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
I mean, I think about folks who,I mean, you mentioned, right?
Art is not just a painting. It's not just music.
It's not just literature. Art can take so many forms.
(33:43):
And that reminds me of something, you know, I think
sometimes we seeing children, some children maybe they are
kind of like late in speaking, but they are very early on
expressing. Like they would draw, they would
make Legos. They would, you know, using art
forms to express their feelings,while they might not be able to
(34:08):
name it or like find the right words to describe it.
And I think that makes a lot of sense because when you say, when
you give these feeling a shape, it's less scary.
Yeah. And I can't imagine, you know,
thinking back, I, I wish I had that kind of tool throw out my
(34:32):
childhood. But I think that's.
Yeah, that's a really good kind of illustration of how arts can
help us process grief. And, and it also leads to what
what we do is when we do this, it's not a show and tell.
(34:52):
Everybody demonstrates what they've done at the end of the
of the session when they when they've made their pieces, but
we split into partners. So and the partners.
So in twos you go into differentparts of the, of the, of the
greenhouse. It's a house at the Lantern.
It's this large converted churchinto an arts phase, But you go
(35:14):
privately and you exchange work with that one other person.
And when the other person gets your piece, let's just say you
and I exchanged something. You have put together a collage
of photos from your phone and they express a loss for you.
And I have. I've written a poem, let's say,
(35:38):
and we exchange work. And so I will look at your
photos. I'm not going to say, oh, oh, I
can see your grief here or I understand why you you tell me
about why you came to this and what are you trying to express?
I will say thank you for this photograph of the ocean because
it reminds me of the colour of acardigan my mother used to wear.
(35:59):
Well, thank you for this pictureof this Blackbird because it
reminds me of the time when I left my house to move to another
city. As the moving truck was pulling
out of the driveway, I saw a black bird in the hedge.
So I'm going to give my responseto your work and I'm going to
talk about the feelings it evokes in me.
(36:20):
And then you will read my you will read my poem to me.
But hopefully you can understandmy writing, but with your
intonation, your stress, your pitch, your volume, your
hesitation, you're asking me what on earth is this word?
Because I don't know what it means.
And when you read it back to me like this, it gives me a new
opening of understanding into mypoem.
(36:43):
The whole point of this is that we see each other in this
extremely vulnerable place of integrity.
This is who you are. This is who I am.
So that by the end of the time that we spent together, whether
it's the, you know, a month or what maybe it's just one session
(37:05):
that you come in for, you will see yourself as this person, as
the creator of great beauty. And you also possess that great
beauty in yourself so that the microaggressions that come at
you belong to other people. They don't belong to you because
it's who you are. You are not who other people say
(37:25):
you are. I really love that.
I mean, that's really powerful. At the same time, it's very
gentle as well. It's not like here, there you
go. Like I'm not throwing this in
your face, but I am offering it to you and you can share your
interpretation with me, but I'm not gonna no pressure, right?
(37:46):
It's like I'm not gonna pressingyou on that.
At the same time, it is a powerful exchange of expressions
and feelings. Speaking of expressions and arts
and visual arts, et cetera. I know.
(38:09):
I mean, like mentioned, I have aphotograph from you that you
took last year, I think in Iceland and you've gone back
this year. I mean, Iceland is on my bucket
list for sure. And the photos you've taken and
shown us are very otherworldly or breathtaking.
(38:31):
I mean it looks cold it. Was.
But I'm really curious, like, what is it about Iceland that
just keeps you going back? And my sense is it does ground
you. So tell me, maybe tell us a
(38:52):
little bit about how travel or seeing the world has helped you.
OK, so there's a couple of things going on here.
First, Iceland and secondly travel.
So I'll, I'll address Iceland first.
(39:14):
Specifically for me has been theattraction has been Diamond
Beach, which is a black lava sand beach, which is connected
by a channel kind of a river to a large lagoon called Yokosalem.
And behind the lagoon is the glacier.
The glacier carves parts into that lagoon which then circulate
(39:37):
and are channelled out into the ocean.
The ocean pounds them and throwsthem back onto the sand.
So you get these extraordinary jewel like sculptures on the
sand. It's really amazing and I've
been interested in ICE for a number of years now, since 2012
(39:59):
I think. And the thing about ice is that
it looks so solid and it isn't. It's ephemeral and eternal at
the same time. It it mutates constantly.
You have the first freeze in thewinter.
I'm thinking about outside of ice and now you have the first
(40:19):
freeze of the winter and then there's always a temperature
change. And in that temperature change
something happens. There's a slight melting and a
reformation. And that's the moment that's
just so fascinating that change occurs under these microscopic
moments. And there's there's a physics
(40:46):
theorem that is if practicum actually you with the purest of
water, it's freezing point is way below 0.
Yeah, I heard that. But if you add impurities, which
is what happens in ice, then theformation starts and you get all
these extraordinary things. So that floor becomes beauty.
(41:11):
And I just think that's incredible that it's, it's
something that is there for a very limited period of time.
So the photographs I've taken onDiamond Beach, those pieces will
be gone maybe a couple of weeks if if they last that long.
That's beautiful. So that it feels very much like
(41:31):
the human experience of, you know, things that are so painful
and difficult do change, You know, our perspective on them
changes. Like my perspective on my
brother's death, he died last year is different now.
When I first was frozen by it, when I, when I first, when I
(41:52):
first got to encounter it. And in travel, when you have
mixed heritage like I do, which is Sri Lankan, Portuguese,
Dutch, Anglo Indian and Scots, you are, you tend to live in
liminal space. And so travel makes you far more
observant and absorptive of those places that are, you know,
(42:17):
that are new to you, but that you can also make connections
with. And that also is ephemeral
because I, I went to Iceland in 2019.
I went back last year and I wentthis year and it was different
each time, of course. So it's, it's a combination of
the actual thing itself. Let's just take ice as an
(42:39):
example. For somebody else, it might be
portraiture and the self that isconstantly changing.
So that it's not that your griefchanges, the loss is the loss,
but you go through change and become more compassion.
This is the gift of grief. Is that your compassion just
(43:02):
deepens and deepens and widens and widens so that you know your
capacity for compassionate leadership just is limitless?
I really appreciate that. And of course it, I mean the way
you describe Iceland and your experience with travel and how
(43:22):
can that shape you and reshape you as a person?
It's beautiful, right? It's dynamic and it's fluid,
like it flows as we grow as a person.
I think that part is really beautiful.
And I also think, you know, whenyou mentioned the gift of grief,
it's not that the grief changes,but our capacity change.
(43:47):
And that reminds me of somethingI heard recently is that people,
so this this therapist, it's a it's a therapist, I believe they
said these days people really advocate for protect my mental
health. Like people say that a lot.
(44:08):
And from their perspective, sure, it's valid.
We do need to protect our mentalhealth.
At the same time, it's so overlyused and they and they think
maybe a better way to address this mental health or or
Wellness issue that we have. This is yes, protect and expand
(44:31):
our mental capacity. Absolutely.
I love that. Yeah.
And I think what you just said really kind of reminds me of
that. And I was like, that really
makes sense. So it's, you know, if we look at
the, the, the, the corollary between art and leadership, as
(44:53):
an artist, you have to keep changing.
You have to keep morphing. Even if you as an artist take a
picture of the same place every day for a year, there will
always be change. So it's change, it's
adaptability and flexibility. That's how we've evolved because
of those attributes being able to be flexible and to absorb and
(45:15):
and reflect change. You also have to be, as you
mentioned, in this expansive andvulnerable place, you have to
take the risk, right? And so to, you know, safe
leadership just is an oxymoron. It cannot, it cannot be, it has
to be risk taking. And so this risk of being
(45:37):
saying, OK, I'm going to be vulnerable with my people, with
myself, with my partners and collaborators and vendors.
That's part of being an extraordinary leader, just as
much as artists taking these risks and thinking about all the
people that I know, the dear friends that I know who are
(45:58):
artists constantly taking risks.That's how you make amazing art
and how you begin to be more expansive and more in the world
and more knowledgeable about what you're exploring and
growing yourself to a place where you understand that that
(46:22):
that art, the art of growing, isthe the central part of
humanity. Oh gosh, that is really wise.
And I think that's something fora lot of us is like a lifetime
journey. And yeah, so as we near kind of
(46:44):
the end of our conversation, andI mean, I'm learning a lot.
And every time I talk with you, Sandra, I feel like, OK, I'm,
I'm getting a class here. And at the same time, it's not
like a lecture, you know, it's, it's very, it's very nurturing
and it's very illuminating at the same time.
(47:07):
So thank you very much. And.
Yeah, and of course we want morepeople to know about your work
and learn from you and work withyou.
Tell us where people can find you.
So a few things coming up. You can reach me at my website,
(47:28):
empower her to rise.com. I'm also on LinkedIn.
I'll be talking about compassionate leadership at the
International Leadership Conference in New Orleans at the
end of January, which will be really.
I'm. Very much looking forward to
that. And also at the Healthy Work
(47:51):
Site Summit in March in Washington, I'll be talking
about the illusion of control and the fear of falling apart.
And then in June, I'll be at Wisconsin, the University of
Wisconsin, talking again about, you know, grief and the fear of
falling apart. So there's a few things coming.
(48:12):
Up. That's fantastic.
Yeah. We'll have to list the
engagements, the speaking engagements you have as well so
that folks can find you. And I'm just really grateful
that, you know, you come here today and I know you came back
from Iceland recently. And of course, travel is also
(48:34):
very tiring. So I appreciate you giving us
this time today. Thank.
You. Yeah.
I just want, I just want to hop in Joe and say I've been
watching this podcast when it was a very fledgling little
thing and you've grown it into this powerful, illuminating,
generous and and inclusive platform for so many people
(48:59):
whose voices would not be heard were it not for you.
So I just want to say how grateful we are for the work
that you're doing. If this.
I just want to speak to your listeners right now.
This is one woman who walks the walk.
She doesn't just talk about stuff, she practices it.
So when we talk about intersectionality, you will find
(49:20):
her in the woods with her dog going on hikes.
You will, this is not, not a practice camper, but she will
put herself out there and I go camping.
This is not somebody who is naturally putting herself out
there for everybody. There's a little, you know, a
little reticence sometimes, but because of the work that you're
doing, you are practicing it. And we so appreciate that
(49:42):
honesty and that love that you give to the work.
Thank you. I feel seen.
I appreciate that. Yeah.
For people out there, please, you know, give our podcast some
love and contact our guests on this program because every
(50:07):
single one comes here giving us a gift.
And and that's generosity. And I think that's, you know,
community care and love. And we do not take that for
granted. Wow.
OK with that. And I'm gonna say I'll see you
(50:29):
soon, Sandra. Thank you very much.
OK. Thank you so much, Joe.
Yeah, thank you for listening totoday's episode of The
Intersection. We hope you enjoyed it and if
you like our program, please subscribe and recommend it to
your friends and family. Our original music is created by
my friend Kel Van Zon and I am your host and producer Joe Fung.
(50:54):
See you next time and take care.
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