February 10, 2025 • 53 mins
What drives a person to become entangled in the whirlwind of misinformation that led to the events at the Capitol on January 6th? Join us as Pam Hemphill, a lifelong Republican, shares her transformative journey from a staunch supporter to a critical thinker who questioned the very narratives she once believed. Pam's story is a compelling testament to the power of self-awareness and the courage it takes to confront one's own beliefs amidst a storm of disinformation. Her insights shed light on how easily trusted sources can sway even the most intelligent minds, emphasizing the necessity of questioning information from all angles.
Our conversation also introduces a guest who recounts their time served in Dublin Prison for their involvement in the Capitol events. Through their story, we explore the emotional journey of grappling with responsibility and accountability—elements that can bring about profound personal growth even in the most challenging circumstances. Their interactions with fellow inmates, including Michelle West, reveal the complexities of understanding one's role in the chaos and the importance of self-reflection. This narrative underscores how misinformation can lead individuals down a path they never anticipated, compelling them to reconsider their actions and beliefs.
The episode takes a broader look at the political landscape, focusing on the shifting allegiances within the Republican Party and the influence of Trump, MAGA, and private militias. We discuss the potential future actions of these groups, particularly in volatile regions like Idaho, and the unsettling plans involving "constitutional sheriffs." As the conversation unfolds, we reflect on the essential role of personal responsibility, honesty, and the courage it takes to confront the truth in a world riddled with false narratives. Pam's shift from a lifelong Republican to a Democrat serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of independent research and critical thinking in navigating today's complex political dynamics.
The Jack Hopkins Now Newsletter https://wwwJackHopkinsNow.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
All right, pam, many people will know you when they
see your face and they hear yourstory.
But for those who haven't, thisis Pam Hemphill, and she was
one of the people in attendanceat the Capitol on January 6th
(00:21):
which resulted in a trespassingcharge, if I'm correct, and I'm
just going to kind of go fromthat moment.
But the question I'm going toask you, pam, can you share a
little bit about yourinvolvement prior to that day in
terms of I'm guessing you werea Republican?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, I've been a Republican all my life.
I voted for Obama, though Ididn't tell my family.
Yeah, but I was never reallyinvolved in politics.
I was a retired alcohol anddrug counselor so I was more
into reading books on addictionand helping people in that area,
so I had no business gettinginvolved in politics.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Okay, Well, that's interesting because I find that
to be the case with really a lotof voters.
You know people who are onlineevery day and who are eating and
sleeping politics, I think,have this illusion that
everybody is like that andthat's just not the case.
(01:29):
Most people are working, goingabout their lives and then every
four years, an election comesaround and they look to see who
the candidates are and vote.
Yeah, they all go watch FoxNews, Right, right?
Well, let me ask you, was thata channel that you did watch
from time to time?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Oh yeah, and Gateway Pundit, all those right-wing
media.
That's all I ever watched.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Okay, because the Democrats won it.
How much looking back did thatshape your opinion and your
views in terms of you going tothe Capitol that day?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Well, a lot of it.
To be honest with you, I have afamily that I've trusted and
they're schooled in politics I'mnot, so I would rely on their
information.
And they read schooled inpolitics.
I'm not, so I would rely ontheir information and what they
read books, you know, and Ididn't know about the
disinformation warfare and Idon't think they do either, but
that's mainly what had happened.
(02:36):
I had relied on them and, ofcourse, all the people around
you and mega.
I didn't know it was a cult.
At the time, of course, Ididn't even had no clue.
You don't see that when you'rein it, but they're gaslighting
you all the time.
Of course it started with TrumpFake news.
It trinkles down and when yougo to them with any fact, right
(03:00):
away, well, where did you readthat?
Who told you that?
Don't listen to them.
They're telling you wronginformation, you know.
Right so you don't know who tobelieve Right.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And we spoke a little bit on the phone, you and I
last week, and I think Imentioned I was born and raised
in rural Trump country and Imoved back here about 20 years
ago.
So it's where I live now.
So I absolutely understand thatenvironment.
(03:33):
It's tough when you aresurrounded by the people.
When you go to the bank towithdraw some money or you go to
the grocery store or whateverthe case may be, the people you
are interacting with are all ofthe same mindset.
There's a lot of socialpressure there, if nothing else,
(03:55):
to conform.
And when you look back at that,pam, on that January 6th, if
you were there again and youdidn't have the knowledge that
you have today in other words,you hadn't been arrested, you
(04:17):
hadn't been charged, you hadn'tserved time do you think that it
would probably unfold the waythat it did all over again
because your mind had beenprogrammed by the people around
you in such a way that it wasreally the only outcome for you?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
right, you get all the information was coming from
them and you lose your criticalthinking.
You really do, because thegaslighting is so strong that
what you're questioning them isshut down right away.
It's just automatic.
And I was so naive, in a sensewhere very trusting, why would I
(05:08):
question people with two PhDs?
Why would I question Giuliani?
Why would we question apresident?
They wouldn't lie at thatextent that the election had
been stolen.
I mean, they might fudge ithere or there, little white lies
, but not something that big toget that many people out there
(05:31):
believing them.
So it was very easy to fallinto all this propaganda and
disinformation, because you'rereally just walking around like
most people.
Why would I question you?
Jack, I've got to know you,right.
I've listened to some of yourposts and now I find out that
(05:55):
you've been lying abouteverything, right, okay?
You know, because you don'treally think about checking on
people.
You take them firsthand forwhat they're sharing with you
and they're more educated thanyou, right especially me.
You know in politics I you talkto me about addiction.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
I'll know if you're lying about something, but yeah,
it's you you brought upsomething that I I think is to
kind of highlight for people youmentioned.
Why would I question two peoplewith PhDs, for example and
there are, or were, just as manyintelligent people with
(06:39):
credentials on the right whowere saying the things that led
you to think, hey, let's go tothe Capitol on the 6th, as there
were smart people on the lefttelling Democrats the opposite
message.
So I think sometimes it's easyfor Democrats to think, well, it
(07:05):
was just a bunch of idiots, sowhy would you listen to idiots?
But the point that you aremaking?
There were ample smart people,lawyers coming on television,
people telling you this waslegal, that it was the only way
(07:26):
and that this had to happen,that Trump had not broken any
laws or he could do this, and Ireally wanted you on for that
reason alone.
And I know to people who areregular listeners of my podcast
(07:46):
they might be thinking, no, butJack, what are you doing?
You are making excuses for them, and that's not the case at all
, understanding of how peoplelike you were so easily led to
(08:06):
this moment, and that noteverybody who did this was some
evil simon bar sinister fromunderdog, you know, and working
in an evil laboratory that therewere good bill-payinging
Americans who trusted smartpeople and wound up making
(08:29):
decisions that cost them.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
I think we all are vulnerable to this For an
example on both sides, and weneed to be careful.
I go along.
I can go along with Democratslistening to everything they're
sharing, but now I research andI learned that from the
Democrats, though I got to tellyou Because when I started my
day, six gaslighting space whenI got away from MAGA the
(08:56):
difference you both sounded thesame.
You did you both.
Both of us are wanting to turnthis into a communist country.
Right, both parties are doingthe same thing and I'm going oh
my God, what's going on here?
But the difference was youbrought in receipt.
You didn't just put outsomething like the election was
(09:19):
stoned.
If the Democrats believe theelection was stoned, still the
difference they brought evidence.
Okay, that impressed me.
It was no longer just throwingout opinions of what people were
saying.
It was really backed byresearch.
And that's what I'm doing now.
(09:39):
Like they're putting out therethat Trump wants to take away
the Social Security, so I put apost up today that I want that
verified.
That's scaring people.
Don't be putting out anythingthat can't be verified.
I'm really careful now,especially after reading the
book.
You know the danger within it.
(10:00):
I've got to grab the book Idon't have the name of it with
me right now um just informationright much out there, so we.
It's easy to fall into it and Ididn't know that.
I think both parties need towatch for this because I agree
even the right could be comingin, acting like the left now and
(10:24):
putting out stuff, and youthink they're a Democrat.
I mean it's a horrible,horrible war that's going on.
Yeah, it's just folk.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Oh, yes, yes, barbara McQuaid.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Attack from within.
Fantastic work.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
That's a good plug for Barbara.
Good deal.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, the Maggots are not taught to.
Trump did this.
It's all from Trump.
It wrinkled down Fake news.
I mean, isn't that what Hitlerdid right away?
Sure, and you get around thesepeople and they're so nice, you
know they're not racist.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
What do you think Pam , had you have back then when
you heard Julianne or you heardanybody that you found to have
some kind of authority from theright, if you would have thought
well but they're not providingany evidence of that or I'm
(11:28):
going to check out and see ifwhat they're saying is true
would that have made adifference for you at the time.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Oh, big time.
Yes, but it does not come toyou to do it.
It goes.
I think a lot of it has to dowith people that are listening
to their family.
I think it's our very goodclose friends or spouse,
somebody they're trusting.
And we all get into that place.
It's hard to say to somebody Idon't know, where are you
(12:00):
getting this information?
We just don't want to hurttheir feelings.
You know sure or wrong to bothand we go along by listening to
people we trust andunfortunately they may be.
They may be being honest withyou from what they learned, but
we need to ask them okay,where's this resource, where's
the source?
(12:20):
Who?
Where did you get thisinformation?
Let me look at it.
You've got to be more of adetective today.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Well, just within my own I was thinking about this
this morning, looking forward tothis talk with you Just within
my own home, I was thinking back.
In the last couple of years,there are two times that we have
called and made an appointmentwith a certain doctor for the
(12:49):
children based on therecommendation of a family
member who is not a doctor.
Now you know you think, okay,well, that's my dad or that's my
sister and you know she's anurse and we trust them so much
(13:11):
that we trust our children'ssafety and well-being up on the
recommendation of a familymember who, if you look at it
objectively, you go.
Well, they're not really in aposition to judge how good a
doctor is or isn't, but I calleda doctor based on their
(13:31):
recommendation.
And that's what I want to do.
I want voters, I wantindependents, I want Democrats
to be able to, rather than justgoing to that default.
Oh, they're idiots, they'restupid.
They should have known.
I want to put this in a contextwhere they can see how easily
(13:58):
it could have been them in thesame circumstances.
And, like you said, we all needto practice critical thinking
and looking for the referencesor the sources, or even inside
of our own head questioning isthat really true?
(14:20):
So let's talk about, because Ithink maybe this is what you are
most well known for, and thatis rejecting the pardon from
Donald Trump.
Now, what was the charge?
Was the original charge thatyou were prosecuted on
trespassing?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
passing.
There were actually fourcharges.
I don't remember them all.
They're kind of standard, butmine was picketing and parading.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
The lowest misdemeanor you can receive.
It was the lowest charge, okay,and what was the sentence or
what was the punishment for that?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
sentence, or what was the punishment for that?
Well, it was up to six months,but the prosecutor recommended
60 days and three yearsprobation.
Because I have no criminalbackground.
I've never been arrested.
I've been in recovery 45 years.
Congratulations, my backgroundwas good.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Now where did you serve that 60 days.
Where did you serve that 60days?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
oh, that was in dublin, dublin prison in
california, but they've beenshut down because the warden had
affairs with the women yes, andthere was a big drug bust in
there.
You can look it up.
I was in one of the units withlifers the worst unit and Mrs
Good news Biden pardoned thelady that saved my life.
(15:53):
She really did.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
right, michelle West.
She was in there for life andshe was a beautiful black Muslim
lady.
But she said to me no,misdemeanor, and I've been in
this prison for a long time.
She'd been transferred once,but she'd been there a long time
.
You can't be here.
What's really going on?
(16:16):
Tell me that you're.
I said I'm telling you I'm amisdemeanor, I'm 60 days.
Nobody comes here.
With 60 days, you got to havefive years or more.
It was 95% cartel women withbig drug butts, wow, murder and
you name it.
But she found out about me andapologized.
The women were going to putdrugs in my room and I could end
(16:39):
up with a four-year sentence toget me in trouble.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
But she had clout.
She told those women I thinkshe told them you better back
off a path.
And uh, because she wanted meto get out and make sure people
were signing her petition.
You know she's petitioning toget out, sure?
What about me sending you somemoney or something?
No, no, I don't need no money.
Just help me get my petitionsigned.
(17:05):
You wouldn't give that food toa starving dog, but that's
prison.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
That's just the way it is.
What happened with your mindsetand your attitude while you
were in prison?
Had you already, in your mind,accepted responsibility before
you went, or did that happenwhile you were serving your time
?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
No, it's not like people think.
Since you go to prison, you seea bright light.
I've seen the light and now I'mchanged.
No, most people that go toprison never come out changed.
You move into a survival.
You just learn to survive andtake it.
I had to take it a day at atime.
I focused only on thetelevision.
(17:54):
I was like in a zone, a zombie,not feeling anything, not
thinking about anything butreading books, keeping my mind
sane because I'm claustrophobicand I'd never been in a prison.
I've never been in jail.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
It was fine for me.
I've never been aroundcriminals per se.
I mean as a counselor.
My clients were criminals but,you know, locked up with them.
So it was in my age.
So I just survived, I didn'tand did a lot of praying.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Sure.
So before you went to prison,though, had you already agreed
in your mind okay, I did it, andso I guess this is the
punishment.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yes and no, I still had a piece of me hanging on as
a victim.
I didn't want to.
I wouldn't have broke the law,I wouldn't have pushed berries,
and this is all true, but thevictim thinking was still there.
I wouldn't have went inside theCapitol and I wasn't finding on
it.
See, you can hear it when Ishare this, because there was
(19:05):
two officers at the door and Ithought I'll get it on camera
and ask them do I havepermission to go in?
Well, they shoved me in.
Do you hear that little bit ofvictim there?
However, the fact is I had nobusiness being there.
I should have left once thebarriers, the bike racks, had
been pushed, but no, pam's gotto stay videotaped, you know.
(19:29):
So you tend to look at thethings like the way they talk.
They're holding on to still nottaking full responsibility,
because it's very difficult toget to that point to admit where
you were wrong and geteverybody else out of the way.
Well, if the officer hadn't donethis, or would they open the
(19:50):
doors?
No, they didn't open the doors.
We know that, but they come upwith something and that's what I
was doing.
It wasn't until Ryan Samselhe's the one with the red cap,
and Epps was whispering in hisear.
Do you remember him?
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Okay, and he pushed the barriers and knocked down
that female officer.
When he was in jail, 8-wayPundit put out an article that
he lost his whole eyeball.
The whole thing had been takenout.
So I knew his girlfriend.
Everybody had been calling meat that time.
I got a hold of her and hislawyers.
(20:25):
I found out it wasn't true.
That's what my white light wasthe fact that this man actually
had lied and made over $40,000on his gifts.
That didn't go that day and Itake this information to my mega
ex-face telling them whathappened, what I've learned.
And they yelled at me.
I said I don't know who you'vebeen listening to.
His girlfriend's not tellingyou the truth.
(20:48):
And then I brought anotherstaff and the same thing
happened and finally they gotrid of me and started a smear
campaign Damn, you're againstthis, you're not listening to
the truth.
What's happening with you?
And they started calling me abad and all kinds of names.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
But I don't know what was going on with?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
this when you find out the facts yourself and it
can't be denied that he had liedand then you find out all of
them are lying, little by little.
When I started my J6gaslighting space, the sedition
hunters came in with receipts.
I said, oh my God, I've beenlistening to all this stuff,
(21:29):
believing that the governmenthad been against us that day.
I'm laughing now, but it's soreal when you're in it.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
But even now, though you present them with facts,
they're not facts, and theydon't want to hear it.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
What's been the response to you?
For example, refusing thepardon and showing that symbol
of I reject this, I'm not a partof this anymore.
What's been the response?
Do you fear for your safety?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Well, I've had a lot of smear campaign going on.
You know I've been pushing backfor a year and a half so I've
been kind of used to it.
Oh yeah, Some say, well, youdon't deserve one.
Anyway, I hope they put youback in prison.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
You know, I've gotten a hold of the office.
It's called the Office of thePardoned Attorney.
We've texted them, we'vewritten them.
We've texted them, we'vewritten them, we've called them.
Nothing but senator um rushr-i-s-c-h.
He's a republican here in idaho.
I got a hold of them andthey're pushing the paperwork
through the doj.
(22:42):
See what happens.
I haven't heard anything backbecause I have a legal right to
refuse pardon.
But refusing the pardon, Ithink you may understand it's
hard to explain.
I only have eight months leftof probation, and why even
bother to take the pardon?
Or don't take the pardon?
Because for me, the judge gaveme two months and three years
(23:08):
prison.
I pleaded guilty.
Because I was guilty.
I need to finish my sentenceFor me, no, not for me or
everybody else out there.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
This is for me to feel like I made my amends for
ever being there that day, andit's important to me.
I hope that I can do this.
I'm praying I can do this.
Get back on probation.
I'm a little afraid, though,jack, because they might give me
a PO.
They could be pretty tough onme because my probation has been
nothing no UAs, no visits.
(23:43):
They just said we won't evencare about you until you break
the law.
The only thing is I can't leavethe state without permission,
but they gave me permission whenI needed to leave the state
once.
I don't carry a gun and neverhave my whole life.
I don't use alcohol and drugsand I don't break the law you
know speeding ticket, so beingon probation but they can make
(24:05):
it rough for me if they wantedto.
They can have you do UAs everyday, see you every day, without
announcement.
So I'm a little worried, butyou know what That'd be okay.
It would still be okay.
I don't want anything to dowith Trump and they're trying to
rewrite history.
That January 6th was a peacefulprotest.
I was there.
(24:26):
It was not peaceful, jack.
I kept trying to put out myvideo.
See, I'm on the other side ofthe Capitol.
I didn't even know the riot wasgoing on on the other side.
I didn't even know there wasanother side.
I didn't even know the transferof power was going on.
That's it.
I didn't know.
It's embarrassing to share that.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I should have been moved.
Well, I'm glad that you are,because and that's one thing I
admire about you when we don'tknow something, our impulse is
kind of keep that to ourselves.
We don't want to look dumb, butthere are so many people in so
(25:09):
many areas of life who are inthat same situation, who make a
decision that works out poorlybased on some simple things that
they didn't know, they weren'taware of, and so for you to say
you know, I didn't even knowabout the transfer of power
(25:29):
thing, I was just there to do mything because the people that I
was associating with said we'regoing to the Capitol Is that
kind of how that played out foryou?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I'm sorry I could have missed the last.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
I'm sorry, couldn't miss the last.
Is that kind of how it workedfor you that you didn't go
because you were so caught up inthe specifics of what was
happening?
You went because, basically,the MAGA people you were hanging
around with said this is wrong.
He won that damn election.
Let's go to the Capitol.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, but let's go to the see.
The reputation of Republicansis they leave the Capitol
cleaner than when they got there.
Right, they are people of lawand order.
No way, I had just had surgery,I had stitches.
Was I going to go anywhere?
That I thought.
And of course, my family.
(26:29):
They would never put me inharm's way.
They're the ones that gave methe gift to go there.
See, when I get there, trump'stalking and I can't get through.
There's too many people, it'stoo late.
It was 1030.
And I thought, well, now whatIs there more speakers.
I missed everything.
And they're talking about.
Trump is going to go to theCapitol.
I thought, why is he going togo to the Capitol?
(26:50):
He just had a talk.
And then I thought, oh well,maybe he's going to be meeting
with senators and people andthen they're talking or
something.
So I was excited because thatwas what I wanted to do with
videotape.
I was live on Facebook.
I had lots of followers inBoise, idaho.
But yeah, you're not thinkingthat somebody's going to be.
But now we know Trump plantedand we know the Oath Keepers and
(27:14):
the Proud Boys.
God, that's why I get so angry.
They put this innocent peopleI'm not saying innocent, but
people like me that are notknowing what's going on.
We're expecting a holding signsand screaming, but we're not
going to harm anybody.
That's not even going to happen.
(27:34):
It.
I mean, I could see if somebodycame to the to us and started
to attack us.
The proud boys were there toprotect, right right I mean, I'm
so night thinking, I think,like a lot of us that went there
with the same idea I did, andthen this happened.
It's like you're excited as afive-year-old to go to Walt
(27:56):
Disney and then you get thereand somebody blows it up.
That's what it felt like.
My God, this was going to be agreat day walking around meeting
people, and then they go andstart pushing bears and pushing
officers.
It's like what you know, youdidn't go there for that.
A lot of people did not gothere.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
I heard you mention the state senator.
I think it was.
That's helping you and I wantedto point that out for the
listeners or the viewers that aRepublican senator is assisting
you with your refusal of thepardon, getting the paperwork
through and all of that.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Have you had any feedback from this senator that
would indicate, one way or theother, what he thinks about
Trump at this point?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
way or the other, what he thinks about trump at
this point no, just with this uh, I guess it's a top assistant
is who all I've been talking to.
Okay, I don't know how theywork, you know?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
right.
I called him.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
She pulled me back right away.
Sure, here's, I had to sign arelease and that they could help
expedite my request fasterthrough the DOJ.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Okay, so you are getting help through the
senator's office and they'repretty much keeping it to.
Okay, we are going to help youwith this paperwork and we don't
have much else to say.
Okay, that's kind of what Ithought might be the case.
Okay, that's kind of what Ithought might be the case.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
What do you think now , this kind of taking it away
from your sentence and therefusal of the pardon, and just
looking at the current timeframe, someone who used to maybe
did you identify as MAGA at onepoint.
Well, MAGA wasn't a name backthen, okay, I mean not like you
heard it.
Sure, I just said that as aRepublican that believed all the
propaganda that the Democratswant to turn this into a
communist country.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Fair enough, fair enough.
So, coming from that previousmindset, what do you think about
what Trump and hisadministration are doing now?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Well, I started feeling this a year and a half
ago that we haven't and I knowpeople don't like me using
Hitler, but I don't care, Idon't know how else to describe
him.
He is a dictator.
He wants to be king.
I did do a lot of research andI watched the documentary called
the Family and they started thefirst prayer breakfast in 1953.
(30:39):
Are you familiar with that?
Speaker 1 (30:40):
I am.
I've watched that.
It's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
That's scary.
Now I know they finally gottheir wolf king huh Trump.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Right Very dangerous.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
And then, of course, where's that other book that I
read, the Dangerous Case ofTrump.
It's taken a lot of researchthis one.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Oh yes, dr Lee Bandy Lee Fantastic book.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
So we got a maniac that wants to be a king.
I don't think he, I don't know.
I think Elon Musk is worse thanhim.
I would agree, he's just golfingDo what you want.
But now they got their pardons.
All these proud boys andnosekeepers.
Trump's got his own privatemilitia.
So when the protests starthappening it hasn't happened yet
(31:29):
, it's coming he can send themout.
Do what they do.
You know they start trouble andmore violence.
But all this stuff that'shappening, oh yeah, Is the
heritage.
Family has had this all plannedand they're.
What is his name?
Bolt, Russell Bolt, yes, yes,that was yes.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yes, that was just confirmed.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Oh God.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Yeah, that guy oozes evil.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
He's the one in charge of all this, telling
everybody you know, go do that,ask this, do this, and they're
just doing it.
They all got their own motors.
They're just going along withit because of their benefit.
They don't care what, they'rejust doing it.
They all got their own motives.
They're just going along withit because of their benefit.
They don't care what they'regoing to do.
It's horrible, oh my God.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
So, speaking of the militia, because I know I don't
know where it ranks among states, but I know Idaho has its share
of militia groups, or maybejust what you would call kind of
aggressive preppers, if youwere to name it anything else
what's the vibe out there amongthat community?
(32:40):
Are they actively thinking interms of, okay, at some point
we're going to be called onagain, and do you think they
have a plan for that?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
I do the Idaho Liberty Dogs back four years ago
.
They put out things that theBlack Lives Matter were not
going to come here and destroyour city.
Well, they didn't.
The Black Lives Matter werepeaceful here in Boise, idaho.
I'll tell you that I was thereand they hate me, oh my God.
(33:16):
And you know I was with AmmonBundy.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Yes, right, yes.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
So yeah, they're thinking they had been to one of
their trainings and this istheir plan B they need 25 people
for a grand jury and they getthe constitutional sheriffs to
back them on this and they'llarrest an official, bring them
to their grand jury, which isall legal under the Constitution
(33:43):
, which is not.
This is what they tell you andthey believe it, especially
Emmett Bundy, and then they'lltry him for treason, and you
know the penalty for treason,and I've got pictures because
Emmett Bundy's family has beenwith Ivan Racklin, michael Flynn
, of course, I've learnedthey've all blocked me.
(34:04):
Oh God, but I'm speaking outabout this.
I don't care.
Everybody needs to be warnedthat this is what's going to
happen.
It's going to come, and I thinkthat could really help in one
way for people to wake up andsay these people are insane.
They're going to do this.
They have already.
What is Trump going to say when?
(34:25):
they arrest one of the people hedoesn't like, do you think he's
going to say anything?
Right, they're going to getaway with it.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
You just said something that I've been really
pounding on the last couple ofweeks, and that is I think there
is a distinct possibility atsome point for aggressive
pushback from the RepublicanParty, but it's going to take a
lot of pain for the voters inthe Republican Party.
(34:54):
First, I don't think there'smuch of a chance until that
happens, but once their daughteror their mother or their father
can't get admitted to thehospital or isn't getting paid
this month or something alongthose lines, I don't think we're
going to see much pushback,although my feeling is and I
(35:19):
want to get your input on thismy feeling is there's already
some grumbling in the RepublicanParty.
Aside from the hardcore MAGApeople, just the everyday
grocery shopping Republicanpeople who go to work every day
and don't belong to anyparticular group or militia I'm
(35:42):
starting to hear some grumblingabout some of the things Trump
is doing.
Have you experienced any ofthat?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
No, I haven't, but you know, I read Heather Cox
Richardson's book and she saysin the past and the history, the
Republicans are where they arenow, but they did turn around.
So let's hope You're right.
Once it affects them personallyjust like an alcoholic that
(36:13):
I've worked with until they hita bottom themselves and it's
really affected them so bad arethey able to wake up.
And that's what's going to haveto happen.
There's going to be a line thatthey're probably I hope will
not allow Trump to cross, andit'll probably be the violence
and using the military orsomething.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
That's it when I was listening in a space last night
that I had somebody was sharing,that they really think the
military will not back Trump.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
And I hope they don't .
That's what's happening.
I'm glad to hear that, pam,because I have written that very
thing myself.
Look, here's how I see itplaying out.
If it goes this way, the nationas a whole not just Democrats,
(37:08):
not Republicans all of us startto experience some really
intense pain as a result of theacts of Donald Trump and
military members start to getthese stories of their own
sisters, brothers, grandfathers,grandmothers, cousins, uncles,
aunts, experiencing thesehorrible, upsetting encounters
(37:30):
in life because of thesemindless changes that Trump and
company are enacting.
That's not a military, in myopinion.
That's not a military that isgoing to follow orders from
Trump to get aggressive with UScitizens.
(37:51):
I think that is the point atwhich they say no, no.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
They made an oath to the Constitution, not to one
person.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Right and I say that as a former member of the armed
forces, and I speak to a lot offellow veterans.
Not all of them, but many ofthem agree that when push comes
to shove, the military will holdthe line for the US
(38:23):
Constitution and Americancitizens, and not a king or a
dictator American citizens andnot a king or a dictator.
Pam, let me ask you this Ican't help but think your
experience and all of the yearsof engagement as a drug and
alcohol counselor had to haveproven very effective for you
(38:45):
personally, especially in thistransition with getting charged
and serving time and nowrejecting the pardon, because
the central core of what I hearin everything that you've
experienced is that you tookresponsibility, and that's such
(39:06):
a big part of the alcohol anddrug recovery, is it not?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yes, step 10, when you're wrong, properly admit it.
But I don't properly admitanything.
But, yeah, getting honest withyourself is the first step to
any recovery.
Without that, no matter howmany people are honest with you,
you've got to accept thatyourself.
Yeah, I'm an alcoholic.
(39:32):
Yeah, I am.
Yes, I'm megan.
Yes, I've been listening tothis disinformation and I should
have been researching, doing myown critical thinking, until
you can get to that place isthat I'm not going to be able to
help you?
I can give you all the factsthat you want.
And what do they do with thatanyway, right now?
Oh, I don't want to hear that.
(39:54):
Oh, that's not true.
The denial is so deep.
But, yeah, my sobriety isnumber one and you know you want
to sleep at night and I've gotto meet my maker one day.
There was that little piece,that something in you that don't
feel right when you're talkingabout January 6th back then.
Yeah, I didn't want to pushbarriers.
(40:16):
Yeah, I didn't want to go in.
You know this little victim.
Why did they give me two monthsprison?
I never broke the law before.
You know this little victimdialogue I had going on.
But see, when I went to see mytherapist, that's what happened
too.
That was right after RyanSampson.
He said Ms Hipple and I knewhim for a long time because I
(40:38):
still have issues with PTSD,with my childhood abuses Another
horrifying story.
There he said Ms Hipple, lookat me, you were not a victim,
you were a volunteer that dayand I thought you've got to
trust the person that's beingconfronted with you.
And I trusted him and I leftthat night thinking I'm never
(41:01):
going to go back to the end.
Come on, I'm not a criminal, Ididn't mean to do anything wrong
, but he was right.
He was right and I'm sograteful to the people that do
confront me when I'm going onthe wrong path, because those
are the people I know care aboutme enough to be honest with me.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Absolutely.
Have you had feedback fromother Republicans who have had a
change of heart or are at leastlooking at things more
critically now because of yourexperience?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
No, everyone I've tried to talk to, they don't
want to hear it.
They don't even talk to me.
They just ignore me.
You know, because I go toself-help meetings and sometimes
they wear their Trump hat justto get even with me.
Well, I got another one I'mgoing to wear.
No, I haven't been successfulwith any maggots, in fact, right
(42:01):
now, jack, just to be honestwith you, one came in our space
last night.
I don't want to talk to youanymore because all you bring in
is your disinformation.
you're trying to split us, andif you want to debate, that's
different bring your receipts,but they don't debate they just
argue, so I don't even want totalk to them unless they do have
(42:24):
an open mind and I have an openmind to listen to them.
We need to listen to them too.
We're not all right abouteverything.
Nobody is.
What does Herbert HerbertSpencer say?
He says what leaves a man ineverlasting ignorance is
contempt prior to investigation.
They won't even investigatewhat we're sharing.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
That's a powerful quote.
That's a powerful quote, yeah,and I know we've been on here
for a while and I don't want tokeep you all day.
In kind of starting to wrapthings up, what was the biggest
lie that you feel like ralliedpeople for that movement?
(43:08):
That you feel like ralliedpeople for that movement?
What was the persistent, overand over again lie that rings
out in your head, as this is theone that probably got us to act
.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
I believe that saying that, well, of course the
election wasn't stolen, but itwas.
The Democrats want to turn thisinto a communist nation Mainly
communists, is what I heard anda communist nation, it learned.
Sure, you know which is thebiggest lie?
It's so, oh my God, you knowthat's like saying Mother Teresa
(43:47):
was communist.
You know what I mean, right.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
So would it be fair to say, then, that the result or
the response that most peoplehad to that lie thinking about
this becoming a communistcountry was fear?
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Yeah, and the deep state?
There is no deep state.
Right Project 2025 is the deepstate.
That is no deep state Project2025 is the deep state.
That's a deep state, that isdefinitely, but there's no deep
state, there's no DOJ, afternobody, oh my God.
But they're creative, aren'tthey, these little con artists.
Trump number one, that's whathe said.
(44:24):
He said they're coming after me, but they're really coming
after you, pam.
So?
But I stand in the way.
So now he's their savior andthen, of course, the christian
nationals.
He's from god, oh my god.
That one's just no, I don'tthink so.
Keep god out of this place.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
I was going to say I I heard you mention a few
questions back.
You said one day I'm going tomeet my maker.
Okay, so I take it that youhave some sort of faith, right?
So how does it feel then to seethe abuse of religion that
Trump and the MAGA movement usesto try and draw people in?
Speaker 2 (45:11):
I kind of missed a little bit of what you were
asking.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
How does it make you feel that Trump uses the
Christian, nationalist or whitethat whole theme and drapes it
all around himself as thoughhe's some man of god?
How does it make you feel to toreally know?
Speaker 2 (45:34):
who he is.
Think about it.
That's like doing imagine what.
You take a five-year-old well,let's even say eight years a
young child and you're feedingthem that there is a real
monster in that closet and youbetter keep the closet door
closed and the kid gets allscared.
He doesn't even want to go inhis bedroom.
(45:55):
This is the same thing, thisabuse that he did on these
people putting their trust inhim.
It's horrifying.
I wouldn't want to wake up inhis head, but you know, it's
just yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Well, Pam, I want to thank you for the times that
you've been willing to speak tome on the phone and I know we've
had a time getting scheduledhere and getting together, but
we finally made it happen and Ithink you play.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Oh, you're welcome.
I think right now you areplaying such an instrumental
role in helping reshape thingsin that you take responsibility,
and that's something we justaren't seeing from people these
days.
We don't see people come outand say you know what I was
(46:54):
wrong.
If these are the consequences,then so be it.
That's not an easy thing to doand you've been willing to do
that.
Willing to do that and I'm surethere's always embarrassment
associated with admitting thingsthat you are ashamed of.
(47:15):
That takes a lot of courage,but I think it's the kind of
courage that we need andhopefully we'll see more people
engaging in that kind of helpsget people to listen.
But, as we both mentionedbefore, I think before that time
comes, we've got to feel thepain and, doing as we speak, I
(47:46):
think we'll start to see a shiftand that's where voices like
yours are going to become evenmore important, people saying
you know what?
I was there, but I'm out nowand I'm in a better place.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
And so for that I thank you, pam.
Oh, thank you, pam.
Oh, thank you too.
Yes, I don't know how to say itsometimes, but the peace I have
now, it's like a big weight offmy back.
When you get honest withyourself, you don't have to be
honest with anybody else, itdoesn't matter.
But when you're honest and say,yeah, I was a volunteer that
(48:26):
day, it's like a.
When I explain it, it's likeyou're breathing it in.
It's such a great reliefBecause we all make mistakes,
every one of us.
There is not one righteous, notone, you know.
We all make mistakes and owningup to them is how are we going
to improve or get better if wejust stay in denial and keep
(48:50):
lying to ourselves?
Speaker 1 (48:51):
and then everybody what for People know that it's
full of it you know Sure, and Ithink the answer to this
question is obvious for mostpeople.
But how do you feel about theviolent criminals being pardoned
?
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Oh, it's horrifying.
No, no, god, yeah, I did avideo because everybody was
saying well, he may not releasethem.
No, no, no, no.
You don't know Trump.
No, that's his message that theDOJ is weaponized against him
(49:27):
and the J6ers.
How could he keep them in there?
Because, see, they didn't hitthe officers.
Remember, this is thepropaganda.
The officers provoked them, sotheir stories are lies, and he
had to pardon them, otherwisehis narrative would have been
(49:48):
crumbled.
Oh, trump, you didn't pardoneverybody, so how can the DOJ be
weaponized against the J6ers?
Speaker 1 (49:56):
And that's a fantastic point.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
It was for his good, not for the J6ers.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
That's a fantastic point, pam, and I think it's one
of those things that's kind ofthe elusive obvious.
Yes, if he did not pardoneveryone, then his whole
narrative of the DOJ wasweaponized.
It would fall apart.
That's pretty keen observation.
(50:24):
You're spot on with that.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
But we all think that Trump's like us.
That's the mistake.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
He's a dangerous narcissist.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
He's not like us, he's not going to think about
what's right for the country.
He's not you or me.
He's a dangerous dangerousanother hit that's coming here
for his own motives.
Power is an addiction for himright now, but he needs money to
have the power.
He don't care about the money.
He cares about that control,because he had none growing up,
(50:57):
and so try to quit thinking that, well, Trump is like me.
No, he's not.
He's not like you.
He's a very dangerous man.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
And I don't know if you've been asked this question
or not.
What are your political viewsnow?
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Well, I voted for Harris.
Okay, I'm a Democrat now I?
Speaker 1 (51:21):
registered as a Democrat.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
I should have always been a Democrat, being raised
with Republicans.
You're told back then too what?
Speaker 1 (51:29):
lies, but I liked Obama but yeah, was a Republican
most of my life.
I'm a.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Democrat, and then in all the way with the Democrats.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
I, too, have been a Republican most of my life.
However, I voted for Obama in2008,.
So I didn't fit that typicalmold of somebody who just, no
matter what, you vote Republican.
I've always been kind of arebel in that sense, and I think
you probably have too a littlebit and you like to think for
(52:04):
yourself.
But here's the point that's soimportant even people who like
to think for themselves, likeyou and I, can get swept up so
easily in letting somebody elsetake over with the thinking, and
then we do something that's notcharacteristic of us and we're
(52:25):
going.
How in the hell did that happenso?
Speaker 2 (52:29):
yeah, that's why it's important to sit back and think
things all the way through.
Do your own research, be honestwith you.
Okay, I love what jack issharing with me.
He's telling me I should votefor this representative, but how
do I feel about thisrepresentative?
Right first, right and then,but sometimes we do need to
(52:51):
trust other people's judgmentsbecause ours could be off.
We don't have all theinformation yeah, yeah it's
totally lose that trust.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
You know, right, it's a.
It's a balancing act, isn't it?
Because you know, if I'm goingto have heart surgery, I I don't
want to be second guessing mycardiologist.
You know he's been'm going tohave heart surgery.
I don't want to be secondguessing my cardiologist.
You know he's been to medicalschool.
He specializes incardiothoracic surgery not me.
So yeah, there's a balancethere.
Pam, listen, I'm reach out toyou again and maybe we will
(53:33):
discuss kind of what's going onat the time, but I cannot thank
you enough for joining me todayand helping me kind of Thank you
, I really appreciate you Jeff.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
I appreciate you too.
I appreciate that, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Pam.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
Yeah, we enjoyed what you put out there, thank you so
much.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
Well, I will talk to you again soon.
Bye, bye.
All right, pam, many people will know you when they
see your face and they hear yourstory.
But for those who haven't, thisis Pam Hemphill, and she was
one of the people in attendanceat the Capitol on January 6th
(00:21):
which resulted in a trespassingcharge, if I'm correct, and I'm
just going to kind of go fromthat moment.
But the question I'm going toask you, pam, can you share a
little bit about yourinvolvement prior to that day in
terms of I'm guessing you werea Republican?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, I've been a Republican all my life.
I voted for Obama, though Ididn't tell my family.
Yeah, but I was never reallyinvolved in politics.
I was a retired alcohol anddrug counselor so I was more
into reading books on addictionand helping people in that area,
so I had no business gettinginvolved in politics.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Okay, Well, that's interesting because I find that
to be the case with really a lotof voters.
You know people who are onlineevery day and who are eating and
sleeping politics, I think,have this illusion that
everybody is like that andthat's just not the case.
(01:29):
Most people are working, goingabout their lives and then every
four years, an election comesaround and they look to see who
the candidates are and vote.
Yeah, they all go watch FoxNews, Right, right?
Well, let me ask you, was thata channel that you did watch
from time to time?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Oh yeah, and Gateway Pundit, all those right-wing
media.
That's all I ever watched.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Okay, because the Democrats won it.
How much looking back did thatshape your opinion and your
views in terms of you going tothe Capitol that day?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Well, a lot of it.
To be honest with you, I have afamily that I've trusted and
they're schooled in politics I'mnot, so I would rely on their
information.
And they read schooled inpolitics.
I'm not, so I would rely ontheir information and what they
read books, you know, and Ididn't know about the
disinformation warfare and Idon't think they do either, but
that's mainly what had happened.
(02:36):
I had relied on them and, ofcourse, all the people around
you and mega.
I didn't know it was a cult.
At the time, of course, Ididn't even had no clue.
You don't see that when you'rein it, but they're gaslighting
you all the time.
Of course it started with TrumpFake news.
It trinkles down and when yougo to them with any fact, right
(03:00):
away, well, where did you readthat?
Who told you that?
Don't listen to them.
They're telling you wronginformation, you know.
Right so you don't know who tobelieve Right.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And we spoke a little bit on the phone, you and I
last week, and I think Imentioned I was born and raised
in rural Trump country and Imoved back here about 20 years
ago.
So it's where I live now.
So I absolutely understand thatenvironment.
(03:33):
It's tough when you aresurrounded by the people.
When you go to the bank towithdraw some money or you go to
the grocery store or whateverthe case may be, the people you
are interacting with are all ofthe same mindset.
There's a lot of socialpressure there, if nothing else,
(03:55):
to conform.
And when you look back at that,pam, on that January 6th, if
you were there again and youdidn't have the knowledge that
you have today in other words,you hadn't been arrested, you
(04:17):
hadn't been charged, you hadn'tserved time do you think that it
would probably unfold the waythat it did all over again
because your mind had beenprogrammed by the people around
you in such a way that it wasreally the only outcome for you?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
right, you get all the information was coming from
them and you lose your criticalthinking.
You really do, because thegaslighting is so strong that
what you're questioning them isshut down right away.
It's just automatic.
And I was so naive, in a sensewhere very trusting, why would I
(05:08):
question people with two PhDs?
Why would I question Giuliani?
Why would we question apresident?
They wouldn't lie at thatextent that the election had
been stolen.
I mean, they might fudge ithere or there, little white lies
, but not something that big toget that many people out there
(05:31):
believing them.
So it was very easy to fallinto all this propaganda and
disinformation, because you'rereally just walking around like
most people.
Why would I question you?
Jack, I've got to know you,right.
I've listened to some of yourposts and now I find out that
(05:55):
you've been lying abouteverything, right, okay?
You know, because you don'treally think about checking on
people.
You take them firsthand forwhat they're sharing with you
and they're more educated thanyou, right especially me.
You know in politics I you talkto me about addiction.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
I'll know if you're lying about something, but yeah,
it's you you brought upsomething that I I think is to
kind of highlight for people youmentioned.
Why would I question two peoplewith PhDs, for example and
there are, or were, just as manyintelligent people with
(06:39):
credentials on the right whowere saying the things that led
you to think, hey, let's go tothe Capitol on the 6th, as there
were smart people on the lefttelling Democrats the opposite
message.
So I think sometimes it's easyfor Democrats to think, well, it
(07:05):
was just a bunch of idiots, sowhy would you listen to idiots?
But the point that you aremaking?
There were ample smart people,lawyers coming on television,
people telling you this waslegal, that it was the only way
(07:26):
and that this had to happen,that Trump had not broken any
laws or he could do this, and Ireally wanted you on for that
reason alone.
And I know to people who areregular listeners of my podcast
(07:46):
they might be thinking, no, butJack, what are you doing?
You are making excuses for them, and that's not the case at all
, understanding of how peoplelike you were so easily led to
(08:06):
this moment, and that noteverybody who did this was some
evil simon bar sinister fromunderdog, you know, and working
in an evil laboratory that therewere good bill-payinging
Americans who trusted smartpeople and wound up making
(08:29):
decisions that cost them.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
I think we all are vulnerable to this For an
example on both sides, and weneed to be careful.
I go along.
I can go along with Democratslistening to everything they're
sharing, but now I research andI learned that from the
Democrats, though I got to tellyou Because when I started my
day, six gaslighting space whenI got away from MAGA the
(08:56):
difference you both sounded thesame.
You did you both.
Both of us are wanting to turnthis into a communist country.
Right, both parties are doingthe same thing and I'm going oh
my God, what's going on here?
But the difference was youbrought in receipt.
You didn't just put outsomething like the election was
(09:19):
stoned.
If the Democrats believe theelection was stoned, still the
difference they brought evidence.
Okay, that impressed me.
It was no longer just throwingout opinions of what people were
saying.
It was really backed byresearch.
And that's what I'm doing now.
(09:39):
Like they're putting out therethat Trump wants to take away
the Social Security, so I put apost up today that I want that
verified.
That's scaring people.
Don't be putting out anythingthat can't be verified.
I'm really careful now,especially after reading the
book.
You know the danger within it.
(10:00):
I've got to grab the book Idon't have the name of it with
me right now um just informationright much out there, so we.
It's easy to fall into it and Ididn't know that.
I think both parties need towatch for this because I agree
even the right could be comingin, acting like the left now and
(10:24):
putting out stuff, and youthink they're a Democrat.
I mean it's a horrible,horrible war that's going on.
Yeah, it's just folk.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Oh, yes, yes, barbara McQuaid.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Attack from within.
Fantastic work.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
That's a good plug for Barbara.
Good deal.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, the Maggots are not taught to.
Trump did this.
It's all from Trump.
It wrinkled down Fake news.
I mean, isn't that what Hitlerdid right away?
Sure, and you get around thesepeople and they're so nice, you
know they're not racist.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
What do you think Pam , had you have back then when
you heard Julianne or you heardanybody that you found to have
some kind of authority from theright, if you would have thought
well but they're not providingany evidence of that or I'm
(11:28):
going to check out and see ifwhat they're saying is true
would that have made adifference for you at the time.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Oh, big time.
Yes, but it does not come toyou to do it.
It goes.
I think a lot of it has to dowith people that are listening
to their family.
I think it's our very goodclose friends or spouse,
somebody they're trusting.
And we all get into that place.
It's hard to say to somebody Idon't know, where are you
(12:00):
getting this information?
We just don't want to hurttheir feelings.
You know sure or wrong to bothand we go along by listening to
people we trust andunfortunately they may be.
They may be being honest withyou from what they learned, but
we need to ask them okay,where's this resource, where's
the source?
(12:20):
Who?
Where did you get thisinformation?
Let me look at it.
You've got to be more of adetective today.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Well, just within my own I was thinking about this
this morning, looking forward tothis talk with you Just within
my own home, I was thinking back.
In the last couple of years,there are two times that we have
called and made an appointmentwith a certain doctor for the
(12:49):
children based on therecommendation of a family
member who is not a doctor.
Now you know you think, okay,well, that's my dad or that's my
sister and you know she's anurse and we trust them so much
(13:11):
that we trust our children'ssafety and well-being up on the
recommendation of a familymember who, if you look at it
objectively, you go.
Well, they're not really in aposition to judge how good a
doctor is or isn't, but I calleda doctor based on their
(13:31):
recommendation.
And that's what I want to do.
I want voters, I wantindependents, I want Democrats
to be able to, rather than justgoing to that default.
Oh, they're idiots, they'restupid.
They should have known.
I want to put this in a contextwhere they can see how easily
(13:58):
it could have been them in thesame circumstances.
And, like you said, we all needto practice critical thinking
and looking for the referencesor the sources, or even inside
of our own head questioning isthat really true?
(14:20):
So let's talk about, because Ithink maybe this is what you are
most well known for, and thatis rejecting the pardon from
Donald Trump.
Now, what was the charge?
Was the original charge thatyou were prosecuted on
trespassing?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
passing.
There were actually fourcharges.
I don't remember them all.
They're kind of standard, butmine was picketing and parading.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
The lowest misdemeanor you can receive.
It was the lowest charge, okay,and what was the sentence or
what was the punishment for that?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
sentence, or what was the punishment for that?
Well, it was up to six months,but the prosecutor recommended
60 days and three yearsprobation.
Because I have no criminalbackground.
I've never been arrested.
I've been in recovery 45 years.
Congratulations, my backgroundwas good.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Now where did you serve that 60 days.
Where did you serve that 60days?
Speaker 2 (15:30):
oh, that was in dublin, dublin prison in
california, but they've beenshut down because the warden had
affairs with the women yes, andthere was a big drug bust in
there.
You can look it up.
I was in one of the units withlifers the worst unit and Mrs
Good news Biden pardoned thelady that saved my life.
(15:53):
She really did.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Is that?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
right, michelle West.
She was in there for life andshe was a beautiful black Muslim
lady.
But she said to me no,misdemeanor, and I've been in
this prison for a long time.
She'd been transferred once,but she'd been there a long time
.
You can't be here.
What's really going on?
(16:16):
Tell me that you're.
I said I'm telling you I'm amisdemeanor, I'm 60 days.
Nobody comes here.
With 60 days, you got to havefive years or more.
It was 95% cartel women withbig drug butts, wow, murder and
you name it.
But she found out about me andapologized.
The women were going to putdrugs in my room and I could end
(16:39):
up with a four-year sentence toget me in trouble.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
But she had clout.
She told those women I thinkshe told them you better back
off a path.
And uh, because she wanted meto get out and make sure people
were signing her petition.
You know she's petitioning toget out, sure?
What about me sending you somemoney or something?
No, no, I don't need no money.
Just help me get my petitionsigned.
(17:05):
You wouldn't give that food toa starving dog, but that's
prison.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
That's just the way it is.
What happened with your mindsetand your attitude while you
were in prison?
Had you already, in your mind,accepted responsibility before
you went, or did that happenwhile you were serving your time
?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
No, it's not like people think.
Since you go to prison, you seea bright light.
I've seen the light and now I'mchanged.
No, most people that go toprison never come out changed.
You move into a survival.
You just learn to survive andtake it.
I had to take it a day at atime.
I focused only on thetelevision.
(17:54):
I was like in a zone, a zombie,not feeling anything, not
thinking about anything butreading books, keeping my mind
sane because I'm claustrophobicand I'd never been in a prison.
I've never been in jail.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
It was fine for me.
I've never been aroundcriminals per se.
I mean as a counselor.
My clients were criminals but,you know, locked up with them.
So it was in my age.
So I just survived, I didn'tand did a lot of praying.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Sure.
So before you went to prison,though, had you already agreed
in your mind okay, I did it, andso I guess this is the
punishment.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yes and no, I still had a piece of me hanging on as
a victim.
I didn't want to.
I wouldn't have broke the law,I wouldn't have pushed berries,
and this is all true, but thevictim thinking was still there.
I wouldn't have went inside theCapitol and I wasn't finding on
it.
See, you can hear it when Ishare this, because there was
(19:05):
two officers at the door and Ithought I'll get it on camera
and ask them do I havepermission to go in?
Well, they shoved me in.
Do you hear that little bit ofvictim there?
However, the fact is I had nobusiness being there.
I should have left once thebarriers, the bike racks, had
been pushed, but no, pam's gotto stay videotaped, you know.
(19:29):
So you tend to look at thethings like the way they talk.
They're holding on to still nottaking full responsibility,
because it's very difficult toget to that point to admit where
you were wrong and geteverybody else out of the way.
Well, if the officer hadn't donethis, or would they open the
(19:50):
doors?
No, they didn't open the doors.
We know that, but they come upwith something and that's what I
was doing.
It wasn't until Ryan Samselhe's the one with the red cap,
and Epps was whispering in hisear.
Do you remember him?
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Okay, and he pushed the barriers and knocked down
that female officer.
When he was in jail, 8-wayPundit put out an article that
he lost his whole eyeball.
The whole thing had been takenout.
So I knew his girlfriend.
Everybody had been calling meat that time.
I got a hold of her and hislawyers.
(20:25):
I found out it wasn't true.
That's what my white light wasthe fact that this man actually
had lied and made over $40,000on his gifts.
That didn't go that day and Itake this information to my mega
ex-face telling them whathappened, what I've learned.
And they yelled at me.
I said I don't know who you'vebeen listening to.
His girlfriend's not tellingyou the truth.
(20:48):
And then I brought anotherstaff and the same thing
happened and finally they gotrid of me and started a smear
campaign Damn, you're againstthis, you're not listening to
the truth.
What's happening with you?
And they started calling me abad and all kinds of names.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
But I don't know what was going on with?
Speaker 2 (21:07):
this when you find out the facts yourself and it
can't be denied that he had liedand then you find out all of
them are lying, little by little.
When I started my J6gaslighting space, the sedition
hunters came in with receipts.
I said, oh my God, I've beenlistening to all this stuff,
(21:29):
believing that the governmenthad been against us that day.
I'm laughing now, but it's soreal when you're in it.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
But even now, though you present them with facts,
they're not facts, and theydon't want to hear it.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
What's been the response to you?
For example, refusing thepardon and showing that symbol
of I reject this, I'm not a partof this anymore.
What's been the response?
Do you fear for your safety?
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Well, I've had a lot of smear campaign going on.
You know I've been pushing backfor a year and a half so I've
been kind of used to it.
Oh yeah, Some say, well, youdon't deserve one.
Anyway, I hope they put youback in prison.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
You know, I've gotten a hold of the office.
It's called the Office of thePardoned Attorney.
We've texted them, we'vewritten them.
We've texted them, we'vewritten them, we've called them.
Nothing but senator um rushr-i-s-c-h.
He's a republican here in idaho.
I got a hold of them andthey're pushing the paperwork
through the doj.
(22:42):
See what happens.
I haven't heard anything backbecause I have a legal right to
refuse pardon.
But refusing the pardon, Ithink you may understand it's
hard to explain.
I only have eight months leftof probation, and why even
bother to take the pardon?
Or don't take the pardon?
Because for me, the judge gaveme two months and three years
(23:08):
prison.
I pleaded guilty.
Because I was guilty.
I need to finish my sentenceFor me, no, not for me or
everybody else out there.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
This is for me to feel like I made my amends for
ever being there that day, andit's important to me.
I hope that I can do this.
I'm praying I can do this.
Get back on probation.
I'm a little afraid, though,jack, because they might give me
a PO.
They could be pretty tough onme because my probation has been
nothing no UAs, no visits.
(23:43):
They just said we won't evencare about you until you break
the law.
The only thing is I can't leavethe state without permission,
but they gave me permission whenI needed to leave the state
once.
I don't carry a gun and neverhave my whole life.
I don't use alcohol and drugsand I don't break the law you
know speeding ticket, so beingon probation but they can make
(24:05):
it rough for me if they wantedto.
They can have you do UAs everyday, see you every day, without
announcement.
So I'm a little worried, butyou know what That'd be okay.
It would still be okay.
I don't want anything to dowith Trump and they're trying to
rewrite history.
That January 6th was a peacefulprotest.
I was there.
(24:26):
It was not peaceful, jack.
I kept trying to put out myvideo.
See, I'm on the other side ofthe Capitol.
I didn't even know the riot wasgoing on on the other side.
I didn't even know there wasanother side.
I didn't even know the transferof power was going on.
That's it.
I didn't know.
It's embarrassing to share that.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I should have been moved.
Well, I'm glad that you are,because and that's one thing I
admire about you when we don'tknow something, our impulse is
kind of keep that to ourselves.
We don't want to look dumb, butthere are so many people in so
(25:09):
many areas of life who are inthat same situation, who make a
decision that works out poorlybased on some simple things that
they didn't know, they weren'taware of, and so for you to say
you know, I didn't even knowabout the transfer of power
(25:29):
thing, I was just there to do mything because the people that I
was associating with said we'regoing to the Capitol Is that
kind of how that played out foryou?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I'm sorry I could have missed the last.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
I'm sorry, couldn't miss the last.
Is that kind of how it workedfor you that you didn't go
because you were so caught up inthe specifics of what was
happening?
You went because, basically,the MAGA people you were hanging
around with said this is wrong.
He won that damn election.
Let's go to the Capitol.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, but let's go to the see.
The reputation of Republicansis they leave the Capitol
cleaner than when they got there.
Right, they are people of lawand order.
No way, I had just had surgery,I had stitches.
Was I going to go anywhere?
That I thought.
And of course, my family.
(26:29):
They would never put me inharm's way.
They're the ones that gave methe gift to go there.
See, when I get there, trump'stalking and I can't get through.
There's too many people, it'stoo late.
It was 1030.
And I thought, well, now whatIs there more speakers.
I missed everything.
And they're talking about.
Trump is going to go to theCapitol.
I thought, why is he going togo to the Capitol?
(26:50):
He just had a talk.
And then I thought, oh well,maybe he's going to be meeting
with senators and people andthen they're talking or
something.
So I was excited because thatwas what I wanted to do with
videotape.
I was live on Facebook.
I had lots of followers inBoise, idaho.
But yeah, you're not thinkingthat somebody's going to be.
But now we know Trump plantedand we know the Oath Keepers and
(27:14):
the Proud Boys.
God, that's why I get so angry.
They put this innocent peopleI'm not saying innocent, but
people like me that are notknowing what's going on.
We're expecting a holding signsand screaming, but we're not
going to harm anybody.
That's not even going to happen.
(27:34):
It.
I mean, I could see if somebodycame to the to us and started
to attack us.
The proud boys were there toprotect, right right I mean, I'm
so night thinking, I think,like a lot of us that went there
with the same idea I did, andthen this happened.
It's like you're excited as afive-year-old to go to Walt
(27:56):
Disney and then you get thereand somebody blows it up.
That's what it felt like.
My God, this was going to be agreat day walking around meeting
people, and then they go andstart pushing bears and pushing
officers.
It's like what you know, youdidn't go there for that.
A lot of people did not gothere.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
I heard you mention the state senator.
I think it was.
That's helping you and I wantedto point that out for the
listeners or the viewers that aRepublican senator is assisting
you with your refusal of thepardon, getting the paperwork
through and all of that.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Have you had any feedback from this senator that
would indicate, one way or theother, what he thinks about
Trump at this point?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
way or the other, what he thinks about trump at
this point no, just with this uh, I guess it's a top assistant
is who all I've been talking to.
Okay, I don't know how theywork, you know?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
right.
I called him.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
She pulled me back right away.
Sure, here's, I had to sign arelease and that they could help
expedite my request fasterthrough the DOJ.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Okay, so you are getting help through the
senator's office and they'repretty much keeping it to.
Okay, we are going to help youwith this paperwork and we don't
have much else to say.
Okay, that's kind of what Ithought might be the case.
Okay, that's kind of what Ithought might be the case.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
What do you think now , this kind of taking it away
from your sentence and therefusal of the pardon, and just
looking at the current timeframe, someone who used to maybe
did you identify as MAGA at onepoint.
Well, MAGA wasn't a name backthen, okay, I mean not like you
heard it.
Sure, I just said that as aRepublican that believed all the
propaganda that the Democratswant to turn this into a
communist country.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Fair enough, fair enough.
So, coming from that previousmindset, what do you think about
what Trump and hisadministration are doing now?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Well, I started feeling this a year and a half
ago that we haven't and I knowpeople don't like me using
Hitler, but I don't care, Idon't know how else to describe
him.
He is a dictator.
He wants to be king.
I did do a lot of research andI watched the documentary called
the Family and they started thefirst prayer breakfast in 1953.
(30:39):
Are you familiar with that?
Speaker 1 (30:40):
I am.
I've watched that.
It's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
That's scary.
Now I know they finally gottheir wolf king huh Trump.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Right Very dangerous.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
And then, of course, where's that other book that I
read, the Dangerous Case ofTrump.
It's taken a lot of researchthis one.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Oh yes, dr Lee Bandy Lee Fantastic book.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
So we got a maniac that wants to be a king.
I don't think he, I don't know.
I think Elon Musk is worse thanhim.
I would agree, he's just golfingDo what you want.
But now they got their pardons.
All these proud boys andnosekeepers.
Trump's got his own privatemilitia.
So when the protests starthappening it hasn't happened yet
(31:29):
, it's coming he can send themout.
Do what they do.
You know they start trouble andmore violence.
But all this stuff that'shappening, oh yeah, Is the
heritage.
Family has had this all plannedand they're.
What is his name?
Bolt, Russell Bolt, yes, yes,that was yes.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yes, that was just confirmed.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Oh God.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Yeah, that guy oozes evil.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
He's the one in charge of all this, telling
everybody you know, go do that,ask this, do this, and they're
just doing it.
They all got their own motors.
They're just going along withit because of their benefit.
They don't care what, they'rejust doing it.
They all got their own motives.
They're just going along withit because of their benefit.
They don't care what they'regoing to do.
It's horrible, oh my God.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
So, speaking of the militia, because I know I don't
know where it ranks among states, but I know Idaho has its share
of militia groups, or maybejust what you would call kind of
aggressive preppers, if youwere to name it anything else
what's the vibe out there amongthat community?
(32:40):
Are they actively thinking interms of, okay, at some point
we're going to be called onagain, and do you think they
have a plan for that?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
I do the Idaho Liberty Dogs back four years ago
.
They put out things that theBlack Lives Matter were not
going to come here and destroyour city.
Well, they didn't.
The Black Lives Matter werepeaceful here in Boise, idaho.
I'll tell you that I was thereand they hate me, oh my God.
(33:16):
And you know I was with AmmonBundy.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Yes, right, yes.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
So yeah, they're thinking they had been to one of
their trainings and this istheir plan B they need 25 people
for a grand jury and they getthe constitutional sheriffs to
back them on this and they'llarrest an official, bring them
to their grand jury, which isall legal under the Constitution
(33:43):
, which is not.
This is what they tell you andthey believe it, especially
Emmett Bundy, and then they'lltry him for treason, and you
know the penalty for treason,and I've got pictures because
Emmett Bundy's family has beenwith Ivan Racklin, michael Flynn
, of course, I've learnedthey've all blocked me.
(34:04):
Oh God, but I'm speaking outabout this.
I don't care.
Everybody needs to be warnedthat this is what's going to
happen.
It's going to come, and I thinkthat could really help in one
way for people to wake up andsay these people are insane.
They're going to do this.
They have already.
What is Trump going to say when?
(34:25):
they arrest one of the people hedoesn't like, do you think he's
going to say anything?
Right, they're going to getaway with it.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
You just said something that I've been really
pounding on the last couple ofweeks, and that is I think there
is a distinct possibility atsome point for aggressive
pushback from the RepublicanParty, but it's going to take a
lot of pain for the voters inthe Republican Party.
(34:54):
First, I don't think there'smuch of a chance until that
happens, but once their daughteror their mother or their father
can't get admitted to thehospital or isn't getting paid
this month or something alongthose lines, I don't think we're
going to see much pushback,although my feeling is and I
(35:19):
want to get your input on thismy feeling is there's already
some grumbling in the RepublicanParty.
Aside from the hardcore MAGApeople, just the everyday
grocery shopping Republicanpeople who go to work every day
and don't belong to anyparticular group or militia I'm
(35:42):
starting to hear some grumblingabout some of the things Trump
is doing.
Have you experienced any ofthat?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
No, I haven't, but you know, I read Heather Cox
Richardson's book and she saysin the past and the history, the
Republicans are where they arenow, but they did turn around.
So let's hope You're right.
Once it affects them personallyjust like an alcoholic that
(36:13):
I've worked with until they hita bottom themselves and it's
really affected them so bad arethey able to wake up.
And that's what's going to haveto happen.
There's going to be a line thatthey're probably I hope will
not allow Trump to cross, andit'll probably be the violence
and using the military orsomething.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
That's it when I was listening in a space last night
that I had somebody was sharing,that they really think the
military will not back Trump.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
And I hope they don't .
That's what's happening.
I'm glad to hear that, pam,because I have written that very
thing myself.
Look, here's how I see itplaying out.
If it goes this way, the nationas a whole not just Democrats,
(37:08):
not Republicans all of us startto experience some really
intense pain as a result of theacts of Donald Trump and
military members start to getthese stories of their own
sisters, brothers, grandfathers,grandmothers, cousins, uncles,
aunts, experiencing thesehorrible, upsetting encounters
(37:30):
in life because of thesemindless changes that Trump and
company are enacting.
That's not a military, in myopinion.
That's not a military that isgoing to follow orders from
Trump to get aggressive with UScitizens.
(37:51):
I think that is the point atwhich they say no, no.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
They made an oath to the Constitution, not to one
person.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Right and I say that as a former member of the armed
forces, and I speak to a lot offellow veterans.
Not all of them, but many ofthem agree that when push comes
to shove, the military will holdthe line for the US
(38:23):
Constitution and Americancitizens, and not a king or a
dictator American citizens andnot a king or a dictator.
Pam, let me ask you this Ican't help but think your
experience and all of the yearsof engagement as a drug and
alcohol counselor had to haveproven very effective for you
(38:45):
personally, especially in thistransition with getting charged
and serving time and nowrejecting the pardon, because
the central core of what I hearin everything that you've
experienced is that you tookresponsibility, and that's such
(39:06):
a big part of the alcohol anddrug recovery, is it not?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yes, step 10, when you're wrong, properly admit it.
But I don't properly admitanything.
But, yeah, getting honest withyourself is the first step to
any recovery.
Without that, no matter howmany people are honest with you,
you've got to accept thatyourself.
Yeah, I'm an alcoholic.
(39:32):
Yeah, I am.
Yes, I'm megan.
Yes, I've been listening tothis disinformation and I should
have been researching, doing myown critical thinking, until
you can get to that place isthat I'm not going to be able to
help you?
I can give you all the factsthat you want.
And what do they do with thatanyway, right now?
Oh, I don't want to hear that.
(39:54):
Oh, that's not true.
The denial is so deep.
But, yeah, my sobriety isnumber one and you know you want
to sleep at night and I've gotto meet my maker one day.
There was that little piece,that something in you that don't
feel right when you're talkingabout January 6th back then.
Yeah, I didn't want to pushbarriers.
(40:16):
Yeah, I didn't want to go in.
You know this little victim.
Why did they give me two monthsprison?
I never broke the law before.
You know this little victimdialogue I had going on.
But see, when I went to see mytherapist, that's what happened
too.
That was right after RyanSampson.
He said Ms Hipple and I knewhim for a long time because I
(40:38):
still have issues with PTSD,with my childhood abuses Another
horrifying story.
There he said Ms Hipple, lookat me, you were not a victim,
you were a volunteer that dayand I thought you've got to
trust the person that's beingconfronted with you.
And I trusted him and I leftthat night thinking I'm never
(41:01):
going to go back to the end.
Come on, I'm not a criminal, Ididn't mean to do anything wrong
, but he was right.
He was right and I'm sograteful to the people that do
confront me when I'm going onthe wrong path, because those
are the people I know care aboutme enough to be honest with me.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Absolutely.
Have you had feedback fromother Republicans who have had a
change of heart or are at leastlooking at things more
critically now because of yourexperience?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
No, everyone I've tried to talk to, they don't
want to hear it.
They don't even talk to me.
They just ignore me.
You know, because I go toself-help meetings and sometimes
they wear their Trump hat justto get even with me.
Well, I got another one I'mgoing to wear.
No, I haven't been successfulwith any maggots, in fact, right
(42:01):
now, jack, just to be honestwith you, one came in our space
last night.
I don't want to talk to youanymore because all you bring in
is your disinformation.
you're trying to split us, andif you want to debate, that's
different bring your receipts,but they don't debate they just
argue, so I don't even want totalk to them unless they do have
(42:24):
an open mind and I have an openmind to listen to them.
We need to listen to them too.
We're not all right abouteverything.
Nobody is.
What does Herbert HerbertSpencer say?
He says what leaves a man ineverlasting ignorance is
contempt prior to investigation.
They won't even investigatewhat we're sharing.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
That's a powerful quote.
That's a powerful quote, yeah,and I know we've been on here
for a while and I don't want tokeep you all day.
In kind of starting to wrapthings up, what was the biggest
lie that you feel like ralliedpeople for that movement?
(43:08):
That you feel like ralliedpeople for that movement?
What was the persistent, overand over again lie that rings
out in your head, as this is theone that probably got us to act
.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
I believe that saying that, well, of course the
election wasn't stolen, but itwas.
The Democrats want to turn thisinto a communist nation Mainly
communists, is what I heard anda communist nation, it learned.
Sure, you know which is thebiggest lie?
It's so, oh my God, you knowthat's like saying Mother Teresa
(43:47):
was communist.
You know what I mean, right.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
So would it be fair to say, then, that the result or
the response that most peoplehad to that lie thinking about
this becoming a communistcountry was fear?
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Yeah, and the deep state?
There is no deep state.
Right Project 2025 is the deepstate.
That is no deep state Project2025 is the deep state.
That's a deep state, that isdefinitely, but there's no deep
state, there's no DOJ, afternobody, oh my God.
But they're creative, aren'tthey, these little con artists.
Trump number one, that's whathe said.
(44:24):
He said they're coming after me, but they're really coming
after you, pam.
So?
But I stand in the way.
So now he's their savior andthen, of course, the christian
nationals.
He's from god, oh my god.
That one's just no, I don'tthink so.
Keep god out of this place.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
I was going to say I I heard you mention a few
questions back.
You said one day I'm going tomeet my maker.
Okay, so I take it that youhave some sort of faith, right?
So how does it feel then to seethe abuse of religion that
Trump and the MAGA movement usesto try and draw people in?
Speaker 2 (45:11):
I kind of missed a little bit of what you were
asking.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
How does it make you feel that Trump uses the
Christian, nationalist or whitethat whole theme and drapes it
all around himself as thoughhe's some man of god?
How does it make you feel to toreally know?
Speaker 2 (45:34):
who he is.
Think about it.
That's like doing imagine what.
You take a five-year-old well,let's even say eight years a
young child and you're feedingthem that there is a real
monster in that closet and youbetter keep the closet door
closed and the kid gets allscared.
He doesn't even want to go inhis bedroom.
(45:55):
This is the same thing, thisabuse that he did on these
people putting their trust inhim.
It's horrifying.
I wouldn't want to wake up inhis head, but you know, it's
just yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
Well, Pam, I want to thank you for the times that
you've been willing to speak tome on the phone and I know we've
had a time getting scheduledhere and getting together, but
we finally made it happen and Ithink you play.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Oh, you're welcome.
I think right now you areplaying such an instrumental
role in helping reshape thingsin that you take responsibility,
and that's something we justaren't seeing from people these
days.
We don't see people come outand say you know what I was
(46:54):
wrong.
If these are the consequences,then so be it.
That's not an easy thing to doand you've been willing to do
that.
Willing to do that and I'm surethere's always embarrassment
associated with admitting thingsthat you are ashamed of.
(47:15):
That takes a lot of courage,but I think it's the kind of
courage that we need andhopefully we'll see more people
engaging in that kind of helpsget people to listen.
But, as we both mentionedbefore, I think before that time
comes, we've got to feel thepain and, doing as we speak, I
(47:46):
think we'll start to see a shiftand that's where voices like
yours are going to become evenmore important, people saying
you know what?
I was there, but I'm out nowand I'm in a better place.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
And so for that I thank you, pam.
Oh, thank you, pam.
Oh, thank you too.
Yes, I don't know how to say itsometimes, but the peace I have
now, it's like a big weight offmy back.
When you get honest withyourself, you don't have to be
honest with anybody else, itdoesn't matter.
But when you're honest and say,yeah, I was a volunteer that
(48:26):
day, it's like a.
When I explain it, it's likeyou're breathing it in.
It's such a great reliefBecause we all make mistakes,
every one of us.
There is not one righteous, notone, you know.
We all make mistakes and owningup to them is how are we going
to improve or get better if wejust stay in denial and keep
(48:50):
lying to ourselves?
Speaker 1 (48:51):
and then everybody what for People know that it's
full of it you know Sure, and Ithink the answer to this
question is obvious for mostpeople.
But how do you feel about theviolent criminals being pardoned
?
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Oh, it's horrifying.
No, no, god, yeah, I did avideo because everybody was
saying well, he may not releasethem.
No, no, no, no.
You don't know Trump.
No, that's his message that theDOJ is weaponized against him
(49:27):
and the J6ers.
How could he keep them in there?
Because, see, they didn't hitthe officers.
Remember, this is thepropaganda.
The officers provoked them, sotheir stories are lies, and he
had to pardon them, otherwisehis narrative would have been
(49:48):
crumbled.
Oh, trump, you didn't pardoneverybody, so how can the DOJ be
weaponized against the J6ers?
Speaker 1 (49:56):
And that's a fantastic point.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
It was for his good, not for the J6ers.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
That's a fantastic point, pam, and I think it's one
of those things that's kind ofthe elusive obvious.
Yes, if he did not pardoneveryone, then his whole
narrative of the DOJ wasweaponized.
It would fall apart.
That's pretty keen observation.
(50:24):
You're spot on with that.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
But we all think that Trump's like us.
That's the mistake.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
He's a dangerous narcissist.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
He's not like us, he's not going to think about
what's right for the country.
He's not you or me.
He's a dangerous dangerousanother hit that's coming here
for his own motives.
Power is an addiction for himright now, but he needs money to
have the power.
He don't care about the money.
He cares about that control,because he had none growing up,
(50:57):
and so try to quit thinking that, well, Trump is like me.
No, he's not.
He's not like you.
He's a very dangerous man.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
And I don't know if you've been asked this question
or not.
What are your political viewsnow?
Speaker 2 (51:17):
Well, I voted for Harris.
Okay, I'm a Democrat now I?
Speaker 1 (51:21):
registered as a Democrat.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
I should have always been a Democrat, being raised
with Republicans.
You're told back then too what?
Speaker 1 (51:29):
lies, but I liked Obama but yeah, was a Republican
most of my life.
I'm a.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Democrat, and then in all the way with the Democrats.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
I, too, have been a Republican most of my life.
However, I voted for Obama in2008,.
So I didn't fit that typicalmold of somebody who just, no
matter what, you vote Republican.
I've always been kind of arebel in that sense, and I think
you probably have too a littlebit and you like to think for
(52:04):
yourself.
But here's the point that's soimportant even people who like
to think for themselves, likeyou and I, can get swept up so
easily in letting somebody elsetake over with the thinking, and
then we do something that's notcharacteristic of us and we're
(52:25):
going.
How in the hell did that happenso?
Speaker 2 (52:29):
yeah, that's why it's important to sit back and think
things all the way through.
Do your own research, be honestwith you.
Okay, I love what jack issharing with me.
He's telling me I should votefor this representative, but how
do I feel about thisrepresentative?
Right first, right and then,but sometimes we do need to
(52:51):
trust other people's judgmentsbecause ours could be off.
We don't have all theinformation yeah, yeah it's
totally lose that trust.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
You know, right, it's a.
It's a balancing act, isn't it?
Because you know, if I'm goingto have heart surgery, I I don't
want to be second guessing mycardiologist.
You know he's been'm going tohave heart surgery.
I don't want to be secondguessing my cardiologist.
You know he's been to medicalschool.
He specializes incardiothoracic surgery not me.
So yeah, there's a balancethere.
Pam, listen, I'm reach out toyou again and maybe we will
(53:33):
discuss kind of what's going onat the time, but I cannot thank
you enough for joining me todayand helping me kind of Thank you
, I really appreciate you Jeff.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
I appreciate you too.
I appreciate that, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Pam.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
Yeah, we enjoyed what you put out there, thank you so
much.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
Well, I will talk to you again soon.
Bye, bye.
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