Confronting Curveball: Inside the CIA's Iraq Intelligence Controversy

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jack Hopkins (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Jack Hopkins Show podcast
.
I'm your host, jack Hopkins.
Today I have Margaret Henoch asa guest, a career intelligence
officer at the CentralIntelligence Agency or the CIA.
She served over two decades inthe CIA's Directorate of
Operations and AnalyticalDivisions, retiring in March of

(00:24):
2009 after 22 years of service.
Margaret held the position ofBranch Chief in the CIA's
European Division, working underChief Tyler Drumheller during
the early 2000s, intelligenceoversight Known for her
principled skepticism,particularly confronting the

(00:44):
reliability of key sources,including the infamous curveball
in the lead-up to the Iraq War,where she flagged grave
intelligence concerns.
Within the agency, margaret wasrecognized as a senior analyst
and central group chief.
She provided critical insightand oversight of European-based

(01:06):
human intelligence operations.
Margaret continued toparticipate in public forums and
expert panels.
She appeared on 60 Minutes andengaged in policy discussions,
bringing inside perspectives onnational security and
intelligence.
Margaret Henoch's career wasdefined by analytical rigor,

(01:27):
operational leadership and moralcourage.
As a key figure in assessingand challenging pivotal
intelligence inside bothoperational and analytical
realms, she helped shape theCIA's internal accountability
mechanisms and its approach tobriefing policymakers.

(01:50):
I have to tell you, if you likeit direct, if you like it blunt
and from somebody who cutsthrough the bull and just tells
it like it is, then you are infor a treat.
Tells it like it is, then youare in for a treat.
So sit back, relax and let'sget right into this episode with

(02:15):
Margaret Hennick.
Okay, margaret, question foryou.
We just recently had a prettymajor world event that took
place that relied on some intel,some pretty critical intel.
But we've also had a situationnow where we're getting

(02:38):
conflicting reports from theWhite House and the intelligence
agencies themselves and it'screating quite a stir.
You have a little bit ofexperience in the area of Intel.
I'll tell you what let's do.
If you don't mind, let'sbacktrack to the weapons of mass
destruction and lay afoundation there, and then we'll

(03:00):
come forward to present day.

Margaret Henoch (03:02):
Okay.

So tell me about your involvement and,
specifically, maybe, theframework that you were
presented with when you gotinvolved and what you were asked
and told to do.

Okay, I was at the time working in headquarters
of CIA in Europe divisionbecause my boss at a previous
job had asked me to come workfor him there.
So that's where I was and theoffices in Germany were part of
my thing and I was minding myown business.
And he came down to my office,which almost never happened, so

(03:39):
I figured it was bad.
And he said Jim Pabbott the DDOit was bad.
And he said Jim Pavitt the DDOhad asked that somebody take a
look at the source what did hesay?
The source of the BW, bmd inIraq.
And he asked me if I would doit because the guy was in
Germany.
So I said sure, and it's apiece of vetting agents, is a
piece of what the business isand should always be part of.

(04:00):
And so I didn't know where.
You know there's a ton ofmaterial.
So I asked two guys to work forme to go find it and bring it to
me and to read it so that Iwould have somebody to talk to.
So they brought it to me andabout I don't know.
Three days later I finished it.
It took us it actually took usa while to get the information.
The people who held.
It didn't want to give it to usand by sort of the way we

(04:22):
worked, I should have hadcomplete access from the minute
it started because it was takingplace in Germany.
So we got all of it and as Iread through it, I talked to one
of the guys who was a longtimeGerman hand and I asked him what
he thought and he said, oh,you're going to be insane.
So I thought, ok, not a goodstart.
So I start reading it and Ican't find what the way it works

(04:43):
is.
You get cables from the fieldor cables from somewhere to talk
about the personality, thebackground, the biography of the
person they're talking to, justso that you can figure out what
you're dealing with.
So I started to look for it andI couldn't find anything.
I couldn't find his name, Icouldn't find where he grew up,
I couldn't find where he wasfrom, I couldn't find how he got

(05:04):
out, and that bothered me.
And then there was no data onthat kind of stuff.
All I saw was his intelligencereports.
And I don't know I'm hesitant touse this word I don't know jack
about biological weapons.
I mean, if it had been otherthings, I might have been able

(05:24):
to do it and I have somebackground in estimating weapons
capabilities from a distance,but BW, I don't know.
So I started to ask, like, whois this?
What's he doing there?
So I put together my firstreaction to it and sent it up
the chain, which was we knownothing about him.
I know nothing about him, Ican't find out why I should
trust him, because without anybackground, you don't know why
you should trust him.
And frankly, it's just likewhen you do anything, like if

(05:49):
you go to buy a car and it'ssome guy on a country lot who
has two cars and one is a 400year old Volkswagen, you might
be a little goosey, especially.
So you have to find out wheredid he come from, what did he
study, how did he get into thebusiness, where did he work?
And I couldn't find any of it.
And then when I started to readit, it just didn't sound right.

(06:09):
So I wrote a thing that said Idon't know what's there, but I
don't know what he knows eitherand I don't know who he is, and
that's a problem.
That would have been, say,mid-september 2002.
So in mid I don't knowmid-October, when it all sort of
passed through, I got a call togo up to the deputy director of

(06:29):
CIA's office and talk to hisexecutive officer, whom I'd
known for a long time and whowas from the operational side.
I should have said that firstthe stuff was all written by
WinPAC, which was allegedly acombination of operational
knowledge and expertise.
So, okay, I believe that.
So we get up to talk about itand we start talking and I say,

(06:50):
well, we don't know his name.
And they all just sit there andI said we don't know where he's
from and I'm I'm saying thisbased.
I said to them, I'm saying thisbased on the fact that nothing's
written down and they just,they all just sort of sat and I
thought this is sort of weird.
So then I said and I don't knowenough about biological weapons
to sort of read the mechanicalpart of it, so can somebody talk

(07:13):
to which one of you is thebiological weapons person?
And again, they just sat thereand of course I got.
I was not known, nor am I knownnow, for controlling my temper.
My mentor at CIA was.
I love him dearly, I still amin touch with him, but he was
the least temperate person onthe earth.
He was a smart guy, but oh myGod, I can't even tell that's

(07:35):
where I learned the F word howyou could use it as any form of
speech.

You sure can, and I am expert.

So I started to get.
I said, okay, so who's theexpert?
And then I said to the guy Iknew who's the BW person here?
And he said, well, mostlythey're history and political
science majors.
Which I said, okay, so whenwe're looking at the thing that
you think he's saying we shouldlook for nobody in this room
knows what that looks like.

(08:03):
Have I got that right?
And they started to get pricklywhich they should have and it
just sort of went down in agiant cloud of fire and smoke,
because I just got mad and Ikept asking them what's his name
?
How do we know it?
Did somebody interview him?
Nobody answered anything.
So I said to them here's what Ithink you guys have found a
couple of paragraphs in anintelligence report that you're

(08:23):
putting forward as realintelligence.
And they said, okay, we're done.
So I went back and I said to myboss okay, it's covered.
I told him I thought he wasworthless.
Yeah, not just beforeThanksgiving we have another
meeting and it's exactly thesame dynamic I'm still bitching
about.
You know, I don't know anydetails.
I can't find any cable traffic.
Somebody should give, and you,sir, who are the big head honcho

(08:47):
here, you should be getting itfor me.
Then they all just sort ofstill look at me.
So then one of them starts toargue with me which is fabulous
as far as I'm concerned and Isay, well, what makes you think
it's biological warfare?
And she says because he said itwas.
And I said OK.
So I said what I always say.
So if I brought you myVolkswagen Beetle and told you

(09:09):
it was a Mercedes, would you buyit from me for $72,000?
She looked at me.
I mean you can imagine itwasn't pleasant, but it was fine
with me.
So I went through all of myobjections, which I can
enumerate for you, but it's along list, and we broke up again
and I thought I'd killed itagain.
And then, two days before theslam dunk meeting that Tenet had

(09:30):
at the White House, we hadanother meeting and again they
couldn't explain anything to me.
I kept arguing with them, thereferee said nothing and I kept
thinking why do you keep callingme back?
I can't figure out what this is.
So I said they said well, it'svery in the middle of this,

(09:51):
george Tenet we're in his areawho knows me sort of reaches his
head in or sticks his head inand he says to everybody don't
trust her pointing at me.
She's, you know, she's out tosomething, just sort of a yuck,
yuck, yuck, yuck, yuck.
But of course I thought thatshould have meant that he and I
know each other.
Therefore you should maybe takeme seriously.
But of course that's not whathappened.
So it all blew up again and Ijust thought, ok, well, they're
not going to ask me anymore.

(10:11):
End of January, it's the Powellspeech.
We get a copy of the Powellspeech because that's the way it
works.
They send it to theintelligence piece that has the
account and I read it and it'sall the stupid curveball BW
information and it's.
They've got these trailers andit's just like.
I mean, I knew this because Iknew it from previous experience
.
The Soviets had an MX weaponstrailer that they put missiles

(10:34):
on and they moved it around theSoviet Union.
So you couldn't find it.
So am I talking way too fast?

Not at all.
I think my listeners will lovethis Okay.

So I say to them how do you know what you're
looking at?
How do you know that it's not?
He didn't make it up.
How did he get out of Iraq?
An Iraqi in this kind of aposition as is true in most
countries like that can't justleave.
So how did that happen?
Still no answer.
But we know he's an expertbecause he told us he was and
that Sure.

(11:06):
And so I read back and said Imean, so we came to nothing.
And I went back down again tomy boss and said okay, here's
what happened.
And I actually I wish I had thememos, but they're all
classified and, unlike somepeople that we could mention,
but we won't, I don't think itshould be in my bathroom, so I

(11:36):
don't remember the exact datesor some things like that.
But I know I sent an Right, butthis guy doesn't know anything,
which I thought was the safestand most accurate way to say it.
So then my boss says to me theday the speech is on, he calls
me, says come up to the officeand we'll watch the speech, and
of course it opens with Powellin front of those pictures.
Oh, I heard that Bush wanted anAdlai Stevenson Cuba moment.

(12:07):
So you know you can only youcan imagine.
So I went back up and wroteanother thing about what are you
doing?
What is this?
We don't know what it is.
And then I sent a piece to DODand said how come you guys
believe this?
Tell me what's making youbelieve it, because I don't get
it and I could be wrong.

(12:30):
But nobody has given me areason to believe that I'm wrong
.
So instead of writing me acable back, a guy who worked at
DIA, whom I knew, brought me acopy of the cable that I had
sent and it was all marked upwith snotty little you know.
Oh look, it's another, thiskind of a person who's going to
tell us what we're doing.
So I said to him get me thenames of these people.
Not for now but let me have myammunition.

(12:50):
And, of course, shortly beforewe went in we had another call
to come to another meeting.
It was the same thing, sothat's, I think, five or six
meetings like that.
So I just figured.
They kept trying to make mechange my mind.
I couldn't figure out why untilall of a sudden, when they went
in and they didn't findsomething quickly, I thought

(13:10):
they knew it wasn't.
I mean, I'm not sure that ourpeople knew, right, they were
not the brightest bulbs in thechandelier, but it was clear
that they didn't care.
It wasn't that they knew orthey didn't, they just didn't
care.

It wasn't that they knew or they didn't.
They just didn't care.
And was it at this moment,margaret, that your bullshit
detector went off, or had italready been triggered?

It was In fact my parents lived.
It was in Washington at thetime.
They lived just down in anothersuburb and my mom said to me
when they finally announced thatthey hadn't found anything.
She said to me do you think youcan relax now?
I said has it been that obvious?
And she said how many times doyou normally say the F word in a
day?

Right right.

Frequently so yeah, it was.
I was insane by Thanksgiving.

Yeah, now I've got a question for you because,
having served in the military,I'm very familiar with the chain
of command and how you don't.
In the military anyway, youdon't customarily call out
somebody in the rank above you,particularly at the top, you

(14:26):
know.
That's just that you feel is sowrong and making such a bad
decision that there's kind of anopen-door policy of come in and
unload and let me know.

Not to the top, but what struck me at the time?
Through the whole thing I keptthinking there must be a piece
of this that I don't have.
There's probably that I'm notcleared to know, and that's fine
, that's how compartmentationworks, but there's got to be
something that I just don't knowbecause nobody's reacting to me

(14:56):
Every time.
The meeting before the slamdunk meeting was, you know, five
days before Christmas and theDDO, instead of the guy in
charge of the operationsdirectorate, instead of sitting
through the meeting, sort ofstood up halfway through and
said I have to go buy my wife aChristmas present and walked out
and I was like, okay, I don'tknow what this is, but something

(15:18):
else.
So again, I sort of thoughtthey've got some fabulous agent
who's giving them great stuff.
This is just, this is whatthey're going to tell people.
But it's not the real thing.
I couldn't think of any and,believe me, I was not a Bush
supporter.
I was not terribly fond of mostpeople in the world at that
point.
Sure, Kind of like now.

Right.

But it just never occurred to me.
I had, I mean, I knew Tenet.
Actually, tenet and I had spentthe day before the slam dunk
thing.
He and I spent about two hoursroaming around the building
looking for a foreigner who hadcome to visit him, a senior guy
in another service.
That nobody could find he hadgotten into the building or he

(16:00):
was standing somewhere, and so Iwas with Tennant for that whole
time and it wouldn't have evernot occurred to me to stop him
and say something.

Question for you that I often think about because
clearly in, certainly in manyfacets of the CIA, deception is
a powerful tool.
When it comes to, when we lookat deception as a tool to obtain
the kind of information that weneed to be able to keep America
safe, can you take just amoment and speak to the

(16:30):
difference between deceptionused as that and an
administration just knowingly,outright lying, not for the
benefit of the United States,but for the benefit of the
administration?

I don't know that it's ever happened before
now that I knew of.
I mean, I'm guessing that mayhave been Johnson, but
thankfully I was just a smallperson at that point and I
actually I don't.
Well, I don't know what theBush administration was doing.
I don't know that they wereactively lying.
I think they really believedthat they would find something.

(17:08):
At least I would like to thinkthat that's what they did, and I
don't know whether that's myinnocence, which I am not just
for the record or my sort offaith in government and faith in
the way the thing works, which,until fairly recently, has
always been pretty significant.
My dad was a federal worker.
I have a brother who was a Fed.
My baby brother for a while wasa federal prosecutor.

(17:31):
So I come from that family and,in all honesty, even the people
that I don't love at work, it'sbasically a bunch of people who
are pretty solid and prettygood, and it just never occurred
to me that the administrationwould be that dreadful.
They would follow policies thatI might not agree with but that
kind of lying, and you knowwhen it became actually Jack.

(17:54):
More probable maybe was whenthey were making the case that
Mohammad Atta had met SaddamHussein in Czechoslovakia, I
think in the Czech Republic.
That may be wrong, but he hadmet him somewhere and they kept
saying it and they kept sayingit.
And we talked to you know, theofficers there and they kept

(18:15):
saying no, no, and then it sortof felt like lying.
But again that was the hillinstead of the president, at
least that's who I saw there,but again that was the Hill
instead of the president, atleast that's who I saw there.
So I would say I don't thinkI've seen administration be that
well as dishonest as I thinkthe current one is.

Right no-transcript.

(19:15):
Is it fair to say that that?

kind of thing.
You've seen that also happen onhigher levels where it's really
critical.
My assumption is that's whathappened with Iraq.
Okay, they really wanted Idon't I still don't know why
they wanted to go in, but theyreally wanted to go in and I
have a fabulous book on thetopic.
He is a friend, but he's also areal journalist Robert Draper's
To Start a War.
He walks through sort of how ithappened and it makes and I

(19:45):
read everything because of whereI was.
I don't think it was.
I think they really wanted togo in and do something.
And what I don't understand isyou're the president of the
United States, don't let thecurrent one hear this Like so
say you want to go in,especially after 9-11, which is,

(20:05):
jack, another factor.
But 9-11 changed things.
I think we went from being sortof reasonable and a little bit
less afraid and all of a suddeneverybody was afraid and I think
that changed things.
I don't know whether it'schanged back, because I think I
told you I didn't, I retired in2006,.

(20:25):
Back because I think I told youI didn't I retired in 2006
because I could, but partlybecause it wasn't the place that
it had been.
Yeah, right.
So I think I do think they didthat.
I'm sorry to keep talking.

No, not gosh.
I want you to talk forever.

Oh, be, careful what you wish for.

You know, I have to say I'd have to take a moment
to say this that that all of myCIA guests are about as

(21:07):
clear-eyed and unlikely to makeaccusations or to assign things
to somebody that they don't knowfor sure, and that for me, I
think there's such a as I'm sureyou know better than I public

(21:27):
perception has been so shaped byHollywood about the CIA right,
and then, with the advent of theinternet, people being able to
look at files of MKUltra and allof those things and that to
them that's the CIA right.
And my experience has been sofar removed from that that if

(21:48):
let me put it this way, if youwant, if you're a pod podcast
host who's looking, you run kindof a hammer.
I'm just pound them withanything kind of show.
Cia people are not who you wantto have on because they're
going to stick as close to factsas they know how to.
Is that a fair assessment?

It is.
That's a very nice compliment,thank you.

You're welcome.

The ones that I've watched of yours.
I mean I know Cash and I knowCypher and that's yes, that's
totally them.
And in fact when I joined theagency approximately 100 years
ago I figured I was the only.
I mean I grew up in Los Angeles, good liberal, I was born in
Los Alamos, so that gives yousort of the picture and a pretty

(22:35):
liberal family.
I worked for Ralph Nader beforeI joined the agency Interesting
, and so people I knew I assumedwouldn't be there and everybody
would be pretty much a rightwing In those days.
Right wing wasn't what it isnow, but would be much more
conservative than I.
And I was so stunned when andnobody, nobody ever said
anything about it until after9-11.

(22:55):
I had no idea what anybody'spolitics were.
I just sort of assumed thateverybody was over there and it
turned out they weren't.
But it was something that justwas not talked about ever and it
was really.
You didn't stuck to what youknew to be true.

Well, that's what I find so interesting about the
steady state right Is when yougo down the list of names of the
people who are members andparticipating in the steady
state, while I certainly don'tknow the political affiliations
of all of them or even most ofthem, but you can see there's a
pretty diverse group and I makethe assumption that there's a

(23:34):
pretty good mix politically.
But everybody's focused on thetask at hand, which I guess is
maybe a good reflection of howit was and is inside the CIA
itself that we're here to do ajob, so I don't need to know
your party.

And the other thing I would think and I don't
know this, I'm just sort ofextrapolating is that that's
true everywhere else in thegovernment.
You have no idea.
As I said, my baby brother wasa US attorney and he's pretty
conservative.
I love him dearly.
Sniff, sniff.
He's pretty conservative andone of his closest friends is

(24:13):
Jack Smith.

Interesting.

And look at who his sister is.
And I think it's just you'reused to people who it's just not
part of the discussion.

Right, right, and it's really strange, I'm sorry,
no no, no, there's just suchvalue in that, especially when
you look at I've said this Idon't know how many times on air
on the podcast I think theinternet has been both one of
the greatest and one of theworst things that's ever ever

(24:44):
happened.
It's been one of the worstthings.
Well, even here it's it's, Ithink, been one of the best and
one of the worst.
It's allowed groups who havelegitimate issues and concerns
to be able to come together,right, and to find that, oh okay
, it's not just the five peoplein my town, there are lots of us
but it's also it's allowed thebad actors right to come

(25:08):
together in such numbers andwith such skills that they do
things like influence elections,right.
So, yeah, that's a spooky area.
I don't want to deviate too faroff topic, so I'll come back to

(25:29):
too far off topic, so I'll comeback to.
So that culture.
Then I would assume, havingdone that as long as you did,
that when you leave the CIA, youjust don't leave that behind,
which is pretty evident in howyou've been speaking so far
today, in that, yeah, there havebeen opportunities to say, oh,
bush lied, but you don't havethat kind of information in

(25:52):
front of you, and so you saidyou know, I don't.

And, believe me , I wanted him to have lied, but
I still don't know.

Yeah, I'm glad you said that.
I'm glad you said that becausewe're human right, most Right,
sorry, yeah, my wife referencedthat to me.
We all have and I think sooften.
I think there's a lot of peoplewho kind of believe that
certain people in certain jobsbelieve that certain people in

(26:23):
certain jobs because it's kindof the opposite end of the
spectrum of what we've beentalking about that they are so
professional and so that theydon't have their own emotions
right that are kind of an aside.
Of course they do.
We're human beings.
It's just that some people,namely yourself and your

(26:46):
colleagues, you've learned touse a word that you said earlier
in a different context tocompartmentalize right, to
acknowledge that and then placeit over here and step into a
different mindset.

How crazy does it drive you?

Totally, and I don't even know what the
question is, how crazy does itdrive you to get on, if you get
on social media or if you watchthe news, if you see, I guess,
the dialogue right between justeveryday human beings about what
they know, what they're sure of, that drive you crazy.

Oh yeah, in fact, I no longer really watch
the news.
I listen I'm a good coastallefty and I listen to NPR for
five minutes an hour.
That's the news, although I doread most of the standard
newspapers that you would expectme to read.
Actually, that's not true.
I do read most of the standardnewspapers that you would expect
me to read Actually, that's nottrue.
I mostly do the crosswordpuzzles, mostly because I don't,

(27:49):
I can't stand it.
It just makes me a crazy person, right, and you don't get
anything, or I don't getanything positive from it.
It doesn't tell me we're movingin a good direction.
It doesn't tell me people aresmarter than they were or dumber
than they were.
It's just like People aresmarter than they were or dumber
than they were.
It's just like, oh, my God,we're here again.
Yeah, so I just don't.
I can't stand it and I am noton social media at all.

Is that something that you think is probably a lot
of CIA people lean in that, orno?

I doubt it.
I think they're probably.
I'm just sort of vaguelyantisocial and kind of a hermit,
so I'm happier not knowingthings.
I know an awful lot of peoplewho spend a fair amount of time
on things that I don't.
I think I've never been onTwitter that I can remember.
Maybe blue sky once or twiceasked to go find something I
don't.
I've never been on Facebook.

(28:41):
I do think there are people whodo more than I do and I think
for social reasons.

Sure Sure.

But I don't.
It's a different thing thanother people who are on Facebook
who are on those, I think.

Yeah, it's interesting you say that because
, while, because of what I do, alot of people would maybe not
guess this, I'm pretty much anintrovert Right.
So I use social media that'sthat's kind of my social time
right Because you can just clickand you're back to your, your,
your privacy.
Not that I don't have friends Ithink I have still have one but

(29:14):
you know really, uh, yeah, Allright, but I understand that and
and um it, it can beoverwhelming, and I think I
talked to John Seifer about thisthat I was asking him about
sometimes is too muchinformation.

(29:34):
Does it just slow things downand cloud the issue?
And I can't remember his exactanswer, but something along the
lines of yes, and we have to bevery good at sorting, and that
Something along the lines of yes, and we have to be very good at
sorting and that.
So, coming back to WMD, tell mea little bit about the sorting
process, after you saw whereeveryone was at.

Give me more words about what sorting process
.

Well, when you realize that, okay, this perhaps
is what they want to believe,and maybe even in the back of
your mind thought, okay, and itcould be just utter bullshit,
right, because yes, it's whatthey want to believe, and
perhaps for a good reason.
But then maybe Mr Bush justharbors some ill feelings

(30:26):
towards how his father wastreated and has that agenda.
How do you go through sortingthe information that in your
case you didn't have but thatyou were being fed?
That wasn't really informationin the first place.

I think it sort of goes, has gone back for me
to all the times that I thoughtabout whoever it was, in a
different circumstance, so thatif it was somebody that I
generally thought, yeah, thatperson's a pretty not my same
shooting distance, but they knowwhat they're talking about and
they're generally honest aboutthings like that and if it was
somebody that I didn't in sortof the administration terms I
just didn't they were still justas dishonest.

(31:13):
It didn't what they did andthings like that.
I had my opinions formed prettyearly on, based on the same
things that everybody does,although mine are probably
harsher and far less flexible,I'm guessing.
But I think it's you.
Just I started and I think Ihave a feeling that I'm not
answering your question, jack,but I had a-.

No, you are.
I actually, I like that.
You just aren't like givingkind of a standard.
Yes, no, here's what you askedfor, because you're filling in a
lot of gaps, yeah really Notjust totally babbling, which is
what I think.
No, you're actually.
This is the kind of stuff thatreally fascinates me because it
gives me and the viewers, thelisteners, rather than just kind
of a record of it.

(31:53):
It's giving us an insight tothe emotions and the thoughts
and the different concepts thatwere bouncing around in your
head at the time.

You know, I think people.
I think some people read peoplebetter than other people read
them, and I've always beenpretty good at that.
And I'm contrasting that withmy father, who was the nicest
human being on earth ever and hewas a nuclear physicist and
anybody was his friend, anybodyand everybody.

(32:22):
The only time I ever heard himsay negative things about people
maybe two or three times in mylife, and he lived to be 95.
So there was a lot of his lifethat he did not, and I think
that that's a little bit of theway a couple of my siblings are.
I'm just.
I've always been able to, Ithink, get a reasonably accurate
read reasonably quickly.

(32:43):
I also think and you cantotally slap me down if you feel
like I'm getting way out ofline I think if you're female
and in a particular place in theworld like you want to go to
work at someplace like that, oryou're at certain other
professions or universities, youhave to be better at it than
you would otherwise, becauseyou'll get run over by it.

Right, and am I right to assume that, much like
the military that's where Iguess my reference point is the
CIA especially during the periodthat you were there is very
testosterone driven?

Oh my God, it was like a marinade every day.
Yeah it was like a marinadeevery day.
Yeah, and it was.
It was horrible and I was as Isaid, I was incredibly lucky my
mentor, who was one of themeaner human beings on earth,
but he was brilliant and verywell respected and he saved me
more times than I can.
Even it's too embarrassing toadmit that I would never have

(33:40):
gotten to where I got because hekept reaching in and grabbing
me by the scruff of the neck andsaying stop it, it, sit down,
shut up.
I'll tell you when you can talk, and it was mostly because I
wasn't recognizing what it waslike.
When I went through training,there were 64 people in my class
, eight of which whom eight ofwhom were women, and only five

(34:03):
of whom were headed to theoperations directorate.
Really so, and here's thereally terrifying thing I was
the first one to be seniorpromoted, first female in my
class, and that is so scary.
You have no idea how I wasworried, wow.

Yeah, that I can only imagine, because you did
you feel like okay, well, thecamera's on me Actually.

I sort of felt like I was getting away with
things that people weren'tnoticing.
I believe that may have been anincredibly bad assessment of
what was going on, but I gotlucky.
I was in the right place at theright time a few times and
that's.
You know, curveball kind ofmade my career in some ways.
So that wasn't.
It wasn't terrible, but I got.
I've been lucky through thiswhole thing, I think.

(34:46):
So it's.

So let's, let's, let's.
I know you may not have like beable to say I know how he felt,
she felt, but if only if theonly access to this answer you
have is just how you felt aboutthem.
How many people in theadministration at the time did
you sense and this may just comefrom watching the news clips of

(35:14):
different people speaking howmany of them did you feel at the
time were not at alluncomfortable with the WMD
presentation as the public wasgetting it?

I thought Powell was the only one who was
uncomfortable and I didn't thinkhe was uncomfortable enough,
but everybody else and I didn'tsee lots of.
I saw lots of underlings ofpeople, lots of congressional
staffers, lots of like the guywho was the DOD, what's his name
?
Rumsfeld's gopher, whatever hewas.

(35:49):
Those were the people that Isaw, more than the actual
principals, because they didn'tcome to see my level.
They came to see George Tenetand people who are senior to me,
but there was never anyimplication from anything they
said and anything I read thatmaybe this wasn't the right.
They started yelling about BMDlike 10 seconds after 9-11.

(36:16):
Right, and it felt.
They all felt like that's whatthey really wanted to think.
I don't know that they believedit, but they sure wanted it to
be true.
And I do remember a couple ofsenior aides to senior people
saying to me it doesn't matterif curveball's not right, we'll
go in and we'll find somethingterrible anyway, and I just

(36:37):
thought, wow, really, yeah, sothat would indicate that it was
worse than I initially said toyou that it was.

Just what's your opinion on this?
Just because of the powerful,domineering type of personality
he was, how much did you sensethat what President Bush was
putting forth was because it'swhat Dick Cheney was leaning
into?

It always felt like that was what it must be,
but I've had people tell mesubsequently uh-uh, it was Bush,
really Interesting.
Now I don't know, I have zeroidea how accurate Sure, sure,
but more than one person hassaid no, no, this was George
Bush, that's fascinating, I wassitting there on the I guess it
was on 9-11, and watchingWashington sort of again.

(37:25):
I was in headquarters, thenvanish, and seeing Bush with the
look on his face when they toldhim he had to stop reading to
the kids and I thought, well,that's got to be Cheney.
But I have heard more than fivepeople say it was Bush, so I
don't know.
But that does never stop mefrom talking.

Yeah right, that's good.
That's why I like having you onhere.
When you made your and I don'tknow that this is exactly how
this flow chart works but inwhat I would call your final
assessment right, when you putforth your final evaluation, how
well received or not, was it?

Of curveball?
Yes, was it of curveball?
Yes, not well, and in fact itwas so bad that someone who will
remain nameless, but who I'vementioned before as a special
assistant to the deputy directorof cia so he's out there and he
knows who he is called me andsaid in like a nanny, nanny,

(38:23):
nanny, nanny.
He said you were wrong.
We found one of the trailers.
So I said great, who identifiedit as a BW thing?
And he said Curveball.
So I said so did you show himtwo different trailers?
And he said no, we just showedhim that trailer and he said it

(38:43):
was BW.
And I said to him you nevershowed him that trailer.
And he said it was BW.
And I said to him you nevertook a science class, did you?
And he said well, what do youmean?
I said you can't just show himthe thing that he's been telling
us about and then believe him.
And so then I think four dayslater, they sent a BW team out
and they came back and they saidit's a weather trailer.
So I got to call him on a big,fancy secure phone and say it

(39:08):
was an extraordinarily maturemoment.

Yeah, but is that in your mind similar to putting
like one person in the lineupand saying is this the man who
raped you?

you know, whatever the case may, be
especially one person who'swearing the outfit that the
person said they were wearing?
Who has the hair color?
I mean, it was just Iremembering again in like basic
science, whatever you took thevery first science class, you
have to have a control group.

Right.

And I was stunned that somebody in at
senior CIA levels or seniormilitary levels and I'm guessing
they didn't I'm guessing theysaid well, what does it look
like?
But the agency had so muchvested in curveball that it was
probably somebody from us thatsaid is this a beat?
And probably said is this a bwmobile trailer?
And he said oh yes, becausethat's what you would say when

(39:58):
you were a little kid, if yousure think terrible right or at
least how much?

and I'm only asking you to speak on the time
that you were there and you mayor may not have any real
knowledge of this, but if notjust instinctually, when an
administration is wanting forsomething like this to be true,
how much influence does thatpresident and or that

(40:26):
administration have with thetop-tier CIA people, for example
George Tenet?
Are they persuadable?

Sorry, I should have let you finish, no no, no,
no.

You jumped right to what I wanted to talk about.

My guess partly is who the senior person is.
I think director of CIA mightbe the worst job in Washington
DC, mostly because you never getto say, hey, look at what great
thing we did.
There's always a whole tale ofterrible things that go with it
and because when you come out ofit you don't get a good job.
I mean if you do a really goodjob at state, you get either a

(41:03):
huge ambassadorship or a vicepresidential nominee.
If you do a really good samething at DOD, you get out of
like who was it?
Woolsey didn't get a great jobcoming out.
What's his name?
Webster?
I mean, they were all olderthan dirt Casey, I think, died
instead of coming, which was alittle overreaction, but you
know that worked.

It's a little overreaction, but you know that
I guess worked.

So I think part of it is it's a terrible job
and part of it is people withthe exception of the guys who
were the head of it sort ofbefore I joined, like God I just
had his name in front of me butthe guys who came up through
the agency they understood whatthey were looking at.
Others of them just don't knowwhat they're really looking at

(41:45):
and they're much morecomfortable at least I have
found with the analysts, unlessthey're wanting to have and
forgive me for this like a fratboy day.
Then they like the ops guysbecause they're all going to sit
around and you know, scratchand do those kinds of guy things
.
But I think it's a terrible jobbecause you're basically
walking into a situation thatyou don't know anything about.
I mean, hayden was betterprepared for it and probably

(42:09):
wasn't quite as easilypersuadable, but the rest of
them just you know what I can'tthink of Deutsch and he was very
nice to me.
So I have to say you know thatmay have been one of his biggest
mistakes, but he just wasclueless and I think I was way

(42:41):
too young or junior to knowanything about Woolsey or
Webster but was so angry and sosort of disinclined to be kind
about anything and I couldretire.
So I did.
I didn't follow the agency, Ididn't pay any attention.
Most of my friends were gone.
I just said I am done with this, which is probably not a bad

(43:03):
way to leave it.

Right.
Regarding Brennan, I will saythis If ever there were a face
of seriousness I mean boy.
I'm sure it was unpleasant tobe on the other side of his desk
when he was not happy.
Just even looking at him waspretty intimidating.

He and I had one bad go-round when I was
chief in a place not in thiscountry and he came to visit and
he didn't come through me,which is protocol.
He was supposed to come throughme but he came through, I think
, the foreigners and he showedup in my office and I was like,
what are you doing here?
And he told me and I said youknow, you're supposed to be

(43:45):
coming through me Now.
It didn't occur to me at thetime that I should worry about
being nice to him because hewasn't any part of management
and because I never worriedabout being nice to anybody
anyway.
But I just had to say thatbefore somebody called your
suite and said, by the way, hewas just like, and he was
completely, he just sort of keptlooking at me.
I said no, no, you do understandthat I'm the boss in this

(44:06):
country and you just totallybroke protocol and I could
actually call and request thatyou go home, but our Christmas
party's tonight.
You want to come?
And he did.
And then I figured you know hecould invite, he could introduce
himself to people.
So I didn't introduce him toanybody.
Boy that showed that put him inhis place.
But yeah, he was kind of a jerkin my humble opinion.

Sure yeah, he's definitely not a warm, cuddly
kind of guy.

The place isn't long on warm and cuddly.
Let me tell you, yeah.

And I want to, before we kind of come forward
to current day, know I have anewsletter that I write that's
very direct, it's very blunt andit's not a cozy.

(45:09):
But the people who subscribe tomy newsletter, they're people
who have subscribed becausethat's what they want.
They don't want to have to sortthrough the niceties to get to
the meat of the information.
Would you say that even peoplewho may personally have found

(45:32):
you abrasive, that on aprofessional level they
appreciated and respected, orsometimes maybe?

About once I was difficult.
I mean, they were not wrong, Iwas not impressed with any.
I don't know why.
I mean what an ego.
For absolutely zero reason, bythe way, but I guess it just was
.
Yeah, I had some, and they'restill not impressed with me now,
nor do they care for me, butthey would be confusing me with

(46:03):
somebody who gives a rat's ass.
And there were people and againthis is my.
His name is Paul Redmond.
He was my absolute savior andit was just by coincidence that
we became that.
I worked for him and got somegood jobs.
We had testy moments, but otherthan him, nobody else quite

(46:26):
ever forgave me completely forbeing me.
And I did have when I was earlyon in training this is kind of
what it was and I was in theoffice of a guy who was really
senior to me, but I was justsort of roaming around the
building and I said I'm going togo do this or whatever.
I don't remember what it wasand he said OK, whatever you do,
try not to be yourself.

The opposite of the usual.
Vice versa.

Why?
And I thought, wow, but Isuspect that was kind of the
opinion of a lot of people, andthere were people who still,
even to this day, they don'tlike me.

And you know, oh well, you've identified
something else you and I have incommon.
So there's that.

Again, you should really keep those things
to yourself, but go ahead.

Right, right.
Is that something that youdeveloped throughout your CIA
experience, or was that who youwere before the CIA?

Probably a little bit of both.
This is totally off topic, butit's a great story.
I couldn't get a credit carduntil 1980 because I wasn't
married.
Wow, and I finally got a creditcard from a high-end department
store in washington because thewoman said to me is this cash

(47:42):
or credit?
I said I don't have a creditcard and she said stay here.
And she got a form and wefilled it out and she said I'm
going to get this approved.
She went off and got itapproved and I I got a credit
card from that store which Istill use to this day, just
because but but I couldn't.
So I think that bringssomething up in you that, if you
sort of grew up and believe me,I was incredibly entitled, I

(48:06):
have never had a rough.
I'm not saying that the worldwas mean to me, it's just it was
how it was.

Right.

So I think I would sort of end, because I'm
very secure in my own brilliance, which you know not exactly.
When I listen to this, I thinkto myself what are you doing?
But it never really bothered me.
I mean, I got angry, I didn'tget frightened, and that was.

Well, would it be fair to say that within you,
there is this I don't know, Isee this phrasing used a lot now
.
There is this I don't know, Isee this phrasing used a lot now
.
When somebody approached youwith that attitude, or even
maybe just going through theworld sensing that that attitude
about women existed, did thatconjure up that?
Oh yeah, hold my beer watchthis yeah, yeah, was that part

(48:53):
of your fuel, do you think?

Probably?
Yeah, that part of your fuel doyou think?
Probably?
Yeah, I think it was.
I mean, this is wow.
I really am not young anymore.
This is in like 70s and womenwere not in the engineering
fields and women were not nextto a mig 25 and just wasn't.

(49:19):
And it was interesting to seethe differences in how people
reacted to me, because Iexpected the most grief from the
fighter pilots, but they werenot terrible.
The worst were the mechanics,really, and I would be like,
really, yeah.
Although mechanics are stillhorrible to me today.
So you know, I guess maybethat's mechanics.

(49:39):
I think it.
I do think it played intothings.
Again, jack, I want to makesure that I was not handicapped
by it.
I never felt like.
I did feel sometimes likereally that's where you're going
to go with this, but I don'tthink it held me back.
It probably benefited me insome ways.

Right, and I really sensed that about you,
that in no, no way, shape orform, did you ever feel like a
victim, but but that you, ifanything and I'm only saying
this because this is kind of howI operate and I kind of think
we're on the same wavelengthwith this I'm the kind of person
that's quite often I'm gladthat pushback exists because I

(50:23):
thrive on it.
Right if, if the world werealways nice to me, my motivation
level would probably plummet,because a lot of my drive is all
right, asshole, asshole watchthis.
Yeah, so I never, ever in anyway feel victimized by anything

(50:46):
or, like you said, handicappedby any belief approach.
I might behaviorally if you'reobserving you might think boy,
but what's going on within me issomething totally different.
I may be expressing anger, butI'm secretly appreciative for
the opportunity if that makessense, totally, totally, it's a

(51:11):
great outlet.

And it also trains you for the next time.

It does, it does, and I think would you agree with
me that we are always teachingothers how they can treat us by
what we allow right?
So if you snip at the hand infront of you a few times, you
have conditioning that person tosay go ahead, stick it out as

(51:37):
long as you don't mind gettingnipped, which I think is
important for all of us.
Oh sure, because otherwise, ifwe are across from another human
being, we are never notconditioning them for something.
So if you would have been inthe CIA, where tempers were
always flaring except yoursprobably would have created a

(52:00):
more uncomfortable position foryou.

Probably.
I also think I was a very goodboss.
I was a, because there was nobullshit and I would say to them
I'm going to come in, I'm goingto holler, I'm going to yell,
I'm angry doesn't mean anything.
Holler, I'm going to yell, I'mangry Doesn't mean anything.
And it was.
People loved me, which ishilarious, especially because I

(52:23):
was a pain in the ass most ofthe time.
Right, you weren't reallysupposed to agree with that that
quickly, but it was.
It was, I just think it's also.
I suspect it was home.
I was a daddy's girl.
Daddy, I could do no wrong I'mthe oldest, you know.
So I played by the rules mostly, but when I decided not to, it

(52:48):
was just ugly.

I'm sure though, on a childhood development side
of things, it probably did a lotfor your sense of security in
yourself to have thatunconditional love.
Have you ever thought?

about that.
Oh, I'm sure you're right, I'msure you're right, it gives you.
And also because then I don'tthink any of the four of us ever
says, oh well, I must havegotten that wrong, right?
I mean you do sort of say, oh,did I get that right?
Yeah, but it's a scary worldout there.
Yeah, thankfully, and he wasgreat, and I appreciate that

(53:24):
from you.
I know You're starving.
And then there's my newroommate.
He has no boundaries either,right, yeah, and I think the
agency was actually.

(53:44):
It was worse when I first joined, but they weren't terrible to
most women they were.
I'm currently working with awoman at steady state who I met
when I was a baby and traineeand her and she was like my idol
.
I can't really tell you why,but I just wanted I never.
I met her like once again 30years ago and we never really
knew each other.
And now it turns out that she'sbecoming a really really good

(54:06):
friend for similar sort ofexperiences, because we were
both brought up in that samecraziness and I don't think I
came out any meaner than I wentin.
I mean, you can't work forRalph Nader and be a shrinking
violet.

Yeah, tell me.
Obviously I'm familiar withRalph Nader and his political
history, but on a personal levelI don't know a lot about him.
What kind of man was he to workfor?

Fabulous.
I was in graduate school, Ineeded a job.
He paid like nothing, but Ifigured it would be a good
introduction to things.
And he had an umbrella typegroup that was his sort of
liaison to all of his othergroups and I was in that top one
and so I would go out and dobanking research stuff in
support of.
The issue of the day back thenwas redlining.

(54:54):
He would send me out to go tobanks and all over the country
and he said to me if they, bylaw, if you're doing redlining
work, you ask the bank may I seeyour mortgage book, the thing
that you have all the, and may Ihave a way to copy it please?
And they don't want you to seeit, and they don't want you to
do that.
And he said to me if they giveyou any trouble, you say may I

(55:22):
use your phone for a collectcall?
Of course, now I don't thinkthere's such a thing as a
collect call and call and justask for Ralph Nader, and if I'm
not there, somebody will pretendto be Ralph Nader and you just
say here's where I am.
And I did it four times and allfour times before I got through
the end of the first sentence,the document they didn't want me
to see and a means to copy itwere on the table in front of me
and I just I mean, he likedidn't let you go out without

(55:42):
protection into sort of hostilethings.
He was a little humorless,right, but it was a really fun
place to work, yeah, and reallyweird Because actually I think
this might be me and I'm goingto say it before you have the
chance to.
I like places where you have tobe really committed to doing

(56:04):
something.

Yeah, I can sense that about you.
You're not a one foot in, onefoot out.

No, I'm like you got the whole thing and
that's why they were both good.
So, yeah, he was entertainingand he could have paid a little
better.

Benefits and all.

I think he felt a benefit was being in his aura
.

Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure that's probably a
common experience, isn't it,when you're working in that
sphere.
Yeah, but it was good.
But it was good.
What have you felt in terms ofemotions and the thoughts that
you were having about thoseemotions as you've watched the

(56:44):
last, you know, four, five,three, four days of people
saying we don't know at thispoint exactly how much damage we
did and a president and a secdef saying it was obliterated.
Bring back memories.

And they're all unpleasant.
This one feels worse to me.
I mean that one was prettymiserable, but I was too wrapped
up in it.
Of course, then that one wasn'tas miserable because I got to
say in the end of it, wait.
So I was right, which of courseI said loudly and frequently.
This one is appalling, I thinkit's just, and it takes me sort

(57:30):
of back to what I think I saidearlier, but of course that's
too long ago, I can't rememberit so bad and and it's so wrong
and it's so teaches the worldand the country the exact
opposite of what should behappening after something like
that, in my opinion, right, andI don't know whether I have the

(57:52):
advantage of you know, beinghaving been alive during vietnam
and remembering what that waslike, or that's no advantage at
all, but it's just to be socomfortable with such dishonesty
and to not get any.
I mean, that's one piece of it,I think, jack.
But the other piece of it iswhere are the people from that
party who are saying, hey, wait,I mean, where's l's Lindsey

(58:16):
Graham?
I know that everybody's goingto ask.

Or maybe we don't want the answer.

Where are the people who serve?
Like Joni Ernst?
Are you freaking kidding me?
He served there and how can youallow them to reduce it to the
guys who flew the planes?
And how can you allow him tonot?
It's like I don't even knowwhat else to say.
It feels worse to me thancurveball felt.

Without asking you to, because I know you wouldn't
without asking you to say, yes,he's lying, no, he's not lying,
he's totally lying.
Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.
And I think do you agree withme that we can say that about
this, among other reasons,because we have such a rich
history of his willingness toblatantly lie that His affinity

(59:08):
for it?

Right, yeah, no , you're totally right, I think.
I mean it just doesn't make anysense to me that if something
had really happened, peoplewouldn't.
Nobody wants the Iranians tohave a nuclear weapon, right,
and it's not like he bombed, youknow, los Angeles and said,

(59:31):
although he's moving in thatdirection, nobody wants that to
happen, but it seems clear thatit didn't.
And to not be able to say wedon't know yet or we're going to
do the best we can with what wehave, it's like having a
two-year-old in charge.

It is, it is.
Are there people, I'm sorry yougo.

No, you go right ahead, I was just going to
say I don't think it was thesame thing as curveball, because
when it turned out that therewas nothing there, nobody said
she's lying or oh, he's lying.
I mean, they didn't say oops,which is helpful.

Jack Hopkins (01:00:06):
That's a key point .

Margaret Henoch (01:00:08):
And they didn't accuse anybody of lying and
they didn't like screw over thepeople in those positions who
kept saying it.

Right, yeah, thanks for bringing that up,
because that seems easy tooverlook.
That that's a really definingdifference between those two
events.
Do you feel there are people inthe CIA, or let's just say this
are there people within ourintelligence agencies, good
people who've been there a while, who have not yet been, you

(01:00:40):
know, escorted out, so to speak,that when they see this, when
they see him coming on, even inthe face of his own intelligence
people saying, look slow down,here's what the intel is, and
him to go right back to itsobliterated, are there people

(01:01:01):
within our intelligence agenciesthat are going, jesus Christ,
what he has, no idea, the dangerthat he's putting this nation
in?
Is that an ongoing experience?

I would assume.
So, yeah, I mean, and I wouldassume that's true pretty much
in other places besides justintelligence, yeah, but I would
think that people are just, youknow, does he have any?
I mean, the answer to thatquestion is he doesn't care
whether he knows it or not.
It's not the question, it'sthat he doesn't care.
But I'm sure that that is.
I mean, and people are.

(01:01:32):
I have met several who areterrified and want out and
they're not old geezers Like Ithink.
I just said to you that.
My dear friend Steve said to meyeah well, they're not grizzled
old ladies like you are.
I was like, excuse me, butthey're not grizzled old ladies.
They're, you know, in theirearly fates and their careers
have been upended and theirmortgages can't get paid and

(01:01:55):
they don't see any upside to himbeing there.
Yeah, and then when he liesabout things, you know, the
intelligence community does notneed anybody to lie about it.
It does a perfectly good job ofnot doing the right thing every
time.
And it's just a horrible andit's a betrayal.
You know it's also a betrayal.

Well, that's.
That leads me to my nextquestion.
How much, just through hisundisciplined use of speaking
right, that it's just a flow of.
It's like laying on Freud'scouch right and just free
association.
How much?
How much intel does he giveaway on a weekly basis to people
who are watching and listening,who know how to read between

(01:02:37):
the lines, are watching andlistening?
Who?

know how to read between the lines, I don't
know, but if I were workingthere I would be terrified.
My question is are they tellinghim anything?

Yeah.

I mean, if I were still there would I be?
And my guess is, if I werestill there I would just be
lying through my teeth, right.
But I can say that now becauseI have a great pension and I'm
retired.
Sure, I'm filled with wisdomnow that I don't have to
actually, but I think thatthat's I mean.
I'm sure it's horrible.
I'm sure every day people saylet's not tell him these six

(01:03:07):
things, and then somebodyoverrules it because you know
that he's going to just saysomething stupid.
The advantage is he probablydoesn't read anything, so I
would just keep having him readstuff and it won't get retained.

Yeah, in terms of that, because we've heard many
reports on that that he doesn'tread and in fact, I don't know
how credible this is, but Iheard this and I can't tell you
where I heard it right now butsomebody speaking about I think
it was on a podcast somebodyspeaking about I think it was on
a podcast, somebody speakingabout that the administration

(01:03:40):
was even thinking about creatinga Fox News type show where they
could insert, they could havelike hosts speaking this stuff.
So he didn't have to read it,right, because he's so riveted
to watching something like FoxNews that they thought maybe we

(01:04:02):
can get him.
Now I have no idea whetherthat's true, but with what I've
seen from this White House, itwouldn't surprise me, it's in
the realm of possibility,without question.
What's the danger of a sittingpresident having no interest in
the intel briefings?

World War III, not to overstate.
I mean, he doesn't know.
I think we're actually seeingbits and pieces of the danger
with the NATO meeting and thegroup of seven, the G7, earlier
in the week, when they're just Imean they're saying, oh well,
we're only going to meet for twoand a half hours.
We're not privy to know whatelse they're talking about
without us there.

(01:04:41):
We're not privy knowing, I meanI'm guessing that somebody
would tell a trusted whomever.
But who do they trust at thispoint in the US government?

Yeah.

You can't.
The danger is that we're goingto get left out of everything
from climate change tovaccinations, that we're just
not going to have a huge blankslate because people, whether
it's the intelligence communityor not, they're not going to
share stuff because they don'tknow what he's, because what
he's going to do with it,assuming he remembers it for 10
seconds is going to be bad, isgoing to be bad.

(01:05:20):
And if he doesn't like themessenger, if he's decided that
he doesn't like the Italianprime minister, who was really
making good faces the other day,if I were the Italians, I'd be
waiting for what the next shoeto drop was going to be, and I
guess it was at the queen of theNetherlands, who was also
making faces at him.
But that's also in a differentway.
Even the fact that they'remaking faces on camera

(01:05:40):
internationally is a terriblydamaging thing, because we have
no, we used to have stature, wedon't have it anymore.

We don't.
And boy, that stings to admit,doesn't it?
It really does.
I referenced a minute ago.
I asked you how much, how muchintel do you think he gives away
just through lack of discipline?
And let me speak directly tothat kind of what I had in mind,
because Trump has eight yearsnot including his prior life

(01:06:12):
eight, nine years ofconditioning us to know that
everything he says is a lie,conditioning us to know that
everything he says is a lie.
Here is what my mind immediatelywent to two, three weeks ago,
when he said he was going to putthings on pause for two weeks
regarding Iran.
Now, I didn't know clearly, butin my gut I knew he's probably

(01:06:38):
going to take military action.
My assumption is somebody inthe regime in Iran had that same
gut feeling, because we haveintel reports that they moved.
We don't know exactly what, butthey were in the process of
moving.
They were in the process ofmoving, it could be.
Do you think that he might haveconditioned that regime to also

(01:07:01):
know that everything he says isa lie?
So if he says, hey, pause fortwo weeks, we better get ready
for a strike.

Oh, absolutely, I'm sure you're right.
It seems like a ridiculousassumption that nobody's,
because they don't know whetherhe's going to launch a nuclear
war yet.
I mean, it isn't even thatthey're going to come get us.
What's he going to do?
You have to assume that you gotto be ready for God knows what,
and I would not want to be inany of those and I wouldn't want

(01:07:30):
to be what's her name?
In Mexico, except that she'shilarious to listen to.

She is Claudia.

Yes, and I wouldn't want to be in Quebec in
Canada, because every day theysort of have to wonder is he
really going to come across theborder?
And Hegseth certainly doesn'tappear to know anything or have
any spine.

I hadn't.
I had a not necessarily anexperience, I had a thought,
kind of an epiphany this momentlast night.
I've long had on the varioussocial media platforms.
I've had a pretty goodfollowing from Canada and many
different countries around theworld and I used to get a lot of

(01:08:10):
comments and go US prior to theelection right 2024, and
they're polling for you and youguys got to fight and I had a
lot of dialogue back and forthand it just hit me a couple of
evenings ago I was like I don'thear from those people anymore.

(01:08:32):
I mean, I see they've liked thecomment or something like that,
but as far as the, they don'thave anything positive, any
public worldwide perception ofthe United States of America.
And for people like you and I,I was born in 66.

You're a baby.

But I got in on the tail end of cerebrally and
awareness-wise of watching whatwas going on in Vietnam on the
news.
Right, my parents were theWalter Cronkite every evening,
oh yeah.
And so I was right there bytheir side.
With that Coming from myself,most of my childhood was in the
70s, right?
Wow.

(01:09:34):
It's such a weird sci-fiexperience to try to comprehend
that the world is now looking atus like this.
It's just upside down and,having served in the military
thrown into the mix, it'smaddening.

Yes, infuriating Absolutely.
And disabled.
You can't feel like you can'tdo anything about it.
Yeah, I think that's another.

I mean I guess, which brings me to this question
.

Steady state.

I asked John Cypher this.
I can't remember if I askedStephen, but I asked John, what
is your for him personally?
So this is for you personally.
What is the thing?
The experience, the news reportof the event, what is the one
thing where you are like, fuckme, it's over.

(01:10:33):
Of the event over Just theConstitution, the democracy,
what this country has been foralmost 250 years.
What's that moment that rocksyou back on your ass and you go.

(01:10:56):
My God, we've crossed the lineof no return.

I guess for me it's another couple of Supreme
Court decisions in thedirections that I don't want to
see them go.
And while that's not quite him,that's why we're having those
problems.

Absolutely.

It's.
You know, I mean part of it.
I just cannot imagine whatperson on earth resents medical
care or food going to poorpeople and, more importantly, to
poor people and, moreimportantly, to poor children,
like, who are you and I don'tknow?
Sure, those are the things thatI just I mean the security of

(01:11:47):
the country.
That's terrifying.
All of that stuff is terrifying.
But the stuff about just crueltyis what puts me over the think.
I don't think we were evercruel.
We were stupid sometimes, wedid the wrong thing sometimes,
but we weren't cruel.
I don't think Right, and that'sfor me, that's what my and

(01:12:09):
we're just getting crueler andcrueler.
Right, and I guess, again, thisis his existence.
But the followers who are notwilling to say wait a second,
you know what do you mean?
People who have more money thanGod don't have to pay more.
I'm going to have to pay moreand I'm going to have to pay

(01:12:29):
more outside of taxes, becausepeople in my community are going
to be starving and sick.
That's where I have moretrouble with that than with my
former field of employ, becauseit's so awful.

I like what you said about cruelty.
Obviously, there are a diversearray of opinions on what I'm
about to say, so I'm justspeaking for myself.
Personally, I have never lookedat, even knowing, how horrible
some of the consequences were.
I've never looked at PresidentTruman's decision to drop the

(01:13:08):
bombs as an act of cruelty.
For me, cruelty comes it startsat intention.
Why are you doing what you aredoing if the intention is rooted
in solid pro-american,pro-democracy actions, even if

(01:13:32):
those actions are horrific inthe consequences that they
create?
It was, was not an act ofcruelty and again, this is my
definition.
Donald Trump is not making mostor, some would argue, any of
the decisions that he's makingwith good intentions that
support democracy and thatdefend the Constitution.

(01:13:56):
And I would argue he, as Ithink, at least on some issues
you would agree with me heengages in acts of cruelty, I
think, sometimes just because heenjoys acts of cruelty.
Any thoughts on that?

Totally agree.
He is a bully.
He's an old, fat, weirdlyorange-faced who doesn't.
I mean he hasn't learned thefirst basic thing of makeup,
which is to blend, blend, blend.
Don't have those lines, andthat in itself is enough of a
crime for me.
I grew up in Los Angeles.

(01:14:33):
His cruelty, which is sort ofever-present and omnipresent,
and at the top of him again,that's bad, but the fact that
it's being accepted is what Ithink he's done to the country.
I think he has made a wholeslew of people unkind and cruel

(01:14:56):
and all of the isms that nobody,even if you're sort of thinking
it's maybe a little, he's justsomebody who has made us and our
population a crappy place to be.
Yes, and you know I'm notplanning to leave because in my
world, if there's a way for meto stay here and torture him,
that's what I will be doing.
Right, right, but I can'timagine being any one of the

(01:15:21):
number of people that he's goneat.
What are you doing?
Sorry, he's chewing onsomething.

I'm a pet owner.
So, yeah, I know how it happens.

No, I think.
I mean, I think that's thething that I would say.
He's a horrible, horribleeverything.
I can't imagine him.
There's just no way I can thinkof.
If there's a God, he will go tosome place in his afterlife and
I will be running it.

There you go.
I like how you think.

And I'll let you know.

Okay, if you need like a vice president in your
capacity.

Somebody who might make me even crazier.
That would be good too.
The fact that he has been ableto turn this country into what
it is turning into is justhorrible, I think.

I do as well, and I'm glad you brought that up,
because I've often heard it saidthat the thing about technology
is that it never reversesitself.
In other words, it only goes inone direction.
Right, you don't have somethinghappen, some event, and you get

(01:16:32):
a regression in technology.
It continues moving forward.
And I think human behavior isvery similar to that in that
when permissions are given tobehave in a certain way, it's
very hard to ungive thosepermissions.
I think you're right.

(01:16:53):
You know what I mean.

Yes, unfortunately, I think you're
completely right.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Yes, unfortunately, I thinkyou're completely right.
And I don't know what, I don'tknow how we do it and I don't
know what we do, but I'm thereto try to fight it in however it
is, and I think, unfortunately,it's not just relegated to the
intelligence world, it'severywhere which gives I don't
need a Kleenex sorry, kleenex aclearance anymore to fight him.

(01:17:17):
But I think you're totallyright, it goes in that direction
and I don't know how we bringit back.

Stephen.
I remember a lot of whatStephen talked about, but one
thing that seared into my mindbecause I remember in the moment
kind of the icy chill that Iexperienced, not that I didn't
already know this cerebrally,but coming from him and his
background and who he is.

(01:17:46):
Somewhere in the beginning ofthe podcast, stephen said to me
he referenced that we'respeaking out in support of the
Constitution, and I can'tremember exactly how he worded
it, but essentially we arefighting against this thing
that's happening to us.
And he said in a verymatter-of-fact way.

(01:18:07):
He said you and I are bothtaking a risk doing that.
Now, I knew that.
But, boy, that was asolidifying moment to have
someone who had operated in hiscapacity and experienced and
seen the world in the way thathe has, something you might

(01:18:29):
expect from your neighbor.
You know, just throwing outgeneralizations, but coming from
someone, a qualified commentlike that.
I was like yeah, it's not justmy crazy ass thinking things
like that, you know, it'slegitimate, qualified people.

Oh yeah, I think everything's a risk now
Stuff that didn't use, writingletters to certain people,
writing letters to the editor,writing stuff that we're writing
and putting up with names on itand we have, if people can join
and not provide their names Notto us, but we'll keep them
hidden, and that's just aterrifying place to be.

Yeah, and one that maybe this isn't true of you
because of the things that youwere privy to and the things you
knew about and saw, but I canhonestly say for myself, about
and saw, but I can honestly sayfor myself, it's a place I just
never, in a realistic way, neverfathomed.

(01:19:31):
I knew that, sure,theoretically these things
happen in other countries, butwe were raised on such messages
of strength, right, and that theUnited States was the leader
and the people looked to us thatit almost created the illusion
that this couldn't happen.
And I think in some ways that'sthe very illusion that was

(01:19:53):
taken advantage of.
Our complacency, ourcomfortability with it can't
happen here.
So what could have hurt to votefor the guy?
I mean?
you know, I think that thosethings allowed it to sneak up
and pop us right between theeyes.

I think you're exactly, that's totally right.
And when you come from, thiscan't happen here, you're
basically saying, well, I'lljust wait till it does.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's.

Yeah, it's unbelievable agencies on some

(01:20:47):
level to say what, if anything,can we do to compartmentalize or
to prevent what we know iseventually going to happen with
this kind of recklessness?
I guess I'll ask it this wayFirst of all, do you think
anything like that is happeningor not, and if so, what are some
possibilities?

I hope it is, but I don't know.
I think it's a different.
I think people who arecurrently like in the workforce
there and other places aredifferent from the way we were
by virtue of their commitment toactually having balanced,
healthy lives, where you know,sort of you do say you know, I

(01:21:28):
don't really have to do this 12hours a day for six and a half
days a week, which we didn't say.
We said, you know, yes, sir,yes sir.
And as I was leaving, they werestarting to say to me well, I
can't do that.
That's on Saturday, be like.
So I'm guessing that thecombination of well, I can't do
that because it's going to takelonger than 12 hours, but also I

(01:21:48):
don't know how much risk,because this is big risk.
I mean, this is like seriousrisk.
Yeah, you can tell, I grew upin Los Angeles.
This is like serious risk, man,sorry.
And I think I don't know thatthey're thinking that way.

(01:22:11):
If I were doing it, I wouldhope that, unless it was
something that said the Russiansare launching a weapon tomorrow
, they just don't share it Now.
I'm sure they're not doing that, I'm absolutely sure of that.
But if it were me, I mean, ifhe wants to appoint me to that
job and I am happy to take it.
It would be, you know, run outof a different building, it

(01:22:33):
would change its name and you'dhave a whole bunch of people
there still working, but you'dhave a real one somewhere else.

Yeah, and is it mind-boggling to you to sit here
now and even discuss like thosekinds of things, you know?
Oh yeah, I can only imaginethat.
It's just like what.

Well, on an hourly basis, either I or one of
my three siblings says I am soglad mom and daddy are not here
anymore.

I've said my mother passed in October.
I swear to you, I've said thatmultiple times, I've said, of
all of the grief and whatever,the one thing I'm glad about
every time something happens Igo.
I'm glad she's not here forthis.

Oh yeah, it did happen when you were talking
about things that were a risk.
My folks are buried atArlington and I have to say it's
an odd thing to say, but it's avery nice cemetery to visit.

Yeah, yes.

And it's very nice because you don't have to
do anything, like they doeverything, right, it's nice and
it's well cupped up and it'sbeautiful and people come in and
they're respectful.
And I was over there one dayand there were three police and
I go fairly often, it's closeand there were three police sort
of vans and they did thatbarrel in through the main gate

(01:23:53):
and you can't drive into themain gate unless you have a pass
that says you're visiting agrave and you only get one of
those if it's a family.
And I thought my first thoughtwas I'm going to turn around
because I probably shouldn't behere with my parents in it.
I will now be a target.
And I started to actually turnaround and then I thought and
pardon my language, oh, fuck him.

(01:24:14):
And of course, the cherry ontop of this is I drive a
turquoise blue Mini Cooperconvertible.
So I you know they're reallygoing to come after me, right?
It's like going after in aproblem.
So, yeah, it's ungodly, yeah.

No, and I'd like that spirit though you know that
on the fly you know, fuck him,because I can't tell you the
number of times in the last yearon things I've written, posts
that I've made, podcasts thatI've done I have to remind

(01:25:05):
myself that that kind ofhesitation goes against
everything I believe.

Mm-hmm.

Right, because otherwise he wins.
Look, nobody is not vulnerable.

Right.

Right, when the stakes get high enough, if you
don't have your shit togetherand little reminders for
yourself to keep you on track,you'll get off track.
Mm-hmm is the country and I'mtalking about from the side of
resistance and the people whoare pro-democracy from the

(01:25:43):
masses getting off track farenough that, without realizing
what they've done, they'vethrown in the towel, They've
given up.
And for me that's my definingmoment.
Right, and I can't tell youexactly what that looks like.
I think I'll know it when I seeit or hear it.

(01:26:04):
But once we've gone over thatpoint, then the rest of it's
like taking candy from a baby.

Yeah, yeah.
You know, Totally, I think it's,and I think we have to be there
for each other.
And I am not a yes by a kind ofperson, right, basically it's,
you know, I'm here for me and mycat and the rest of you can
just kiss my ass, which is, youknow, generally not a really
great position.
But I think we have to just saywe're going to do this and

(01:26:34):
we're all going to do ittogether and we're going to be
there, and when we need eachother, we're going to do it.
And I do realize that soundslike I should whip out my banjo
and play Kumbaya, but I thinkit's true and it was very
interesting.

I do too.

We had a protest here in Bethesda, which
I don't know.
If you know the geography, it'slike a mile from the district
line and it's a, you know,high-end community and all that
education and the whole bit, andpeople were out there and I
would say there were more grayheads than anything else and in
part I think it's because that'sI mean, first of all, we don't

(01:27:07):
have that much else to do.
Other people actually do thesame job.
It's like oh good an activityhow bad is a sad and yet true
statement, but I think it wassort of all of a sudden,
everybody kind of looked at it.
I went with two friends but wedidn't know anybody else there,
but it was like we are actuallyin this together, like we are

(01:27:36):
actually in this together andbecause of whom?
I for for sure who my mom was.
We did a lot of vietnamprotesting here, because by 68
we were back here and it feltsimilar.

Yeah, not that um less terrifying right.

Feel that unity yeah, where you're in this and
I went down to one of the, Ican't remember.
I'm always at some protest oranother and it does feel like OK
, there's other, it's not justme, yeah, yeah.

And that's such an important feeling, feeling
atmosphere.
It's something that you kind ofyou feel it within, but you
also, it's almost, it surroundsyou, even even when you're alone
.

Yeah, right, totally.

You know more and more often what I've done.
I'll make a post or comment, ormaybe post something in the
news, and and over and over andover again, I'll I'll get the
question what else?
What can we do to fight this,though, or how does this end?

(01:28:39):
And I've been posting more andmore of this.
You already know the answer.
You already know the answer.
You're asking the questionbecause you are uncomfortable

(01:29:00):
with the answer you keep comingup with, and you're hoping
someone will have somethingthat's less scary and more
comfortable, and then that's thecomment.
I don't think.
Well, I'll put it this way Ithink most people are
intelligent enough that, if theychoose to right, if they choose

(01:29:23):
to apply some just basicanalytical thinking, look at the
pieces we know, look at thehistory, world history and US
history, look at everythingbacking that.
It's not hard to boil it down.
You know what I mean.

(01:29:45):
It's not that, at this point,there's some like you're out in
your garden and witness anorchid opening, and it's this
beautiful moment whereeverything goes back to normal.
It's not so I think your pointthen, that we're there for each

(01:30:11):
other I mean, I know you're onas a CIA person right on the
episode, but in a way, the mostnon-CIA thing you've said is we
need to be there for each other,and I think perhaps what we

(01:30:33):
might benefit from more thananything regarding that is a
better understanding of what itmeans to be there for each other
, and I think we touched on that.
That it doesn't mean we have tobuild a commune right and all
huddle together and live in that.
Like you said, I've got fourdogs here at home and three kids
and a wife Only two kids stillat home.

(01:30:55):
But my point is we can cometogether powerfully without you
know, with the exception ofprotests and things of that
nature, we can be connected in away that spans coast to coast.

(01:31:16):
Right, I'm sure you have aperson or two in your life who
you worked with that you've gotsuch a deep level of trust in
that it doesn't matter.
They could be in Tokyo rightnow and you know they're in

(01:31:39):
Tokyo and they know you're outon the East Coast, right, but
nothing changes in thatconnection.
It's not contingent upondistance or proximity, and I
think that right now, if we canfind a way to foster that, I

(01:32:00):
think that's going to be key.
I only pause there because,like I said, when people ask
that question you know nobodywants to talk about it, nobody

(01:32:21):
wants to even go to thepotential ugliness of where this
goes.
But when you have somebody,that's only pushing ugliness and

(01:32:42):
has ugliness for an end point.

What else can you realistically think about in
terms of what you're up against?
That's not rhetorical, right?
Right?

Okay, just check, right, no, no, no, yeah, no Okay
just check before I sort ofRight, no, no, no, yeah, no, I'm
just throwing that out there.
Now, certainly, if you haveanything to add to that, jump on
it.

I think it's important that one of the things
that we continue to highlightand I think you're doing this
and I didn't I will confess Ididn't know you existed because
I don't go on social media andbecause I'm an old, as Steve
said, grizzled old lady- I,because I don't go on social
media and because I'm an old, asSteve said, grizzled old lady.
I think it's fair to say a lotof people don't know I exist,
well, a.

(01:33:18):
We have to change that.
But I think the fact thatyou're interested not willing
interested in expanding out thatkind of connection, is a huge
story.
It's going to get up on thetable again.
I do wash the table before Iinvite people, but I think

(01:33:39):
that's the kind of from thecaricature that might be you.
That's a really important thing, because people I mean people
say I did say to somebody haveyou ever heard of Jack Hopkins?
And it was my sister, and sheis even more in a cave than I am
and I said no and I said readHeather Cox Richardson on the

(01:34:01):
15th of June, because HeatherCox mentioned you, which I think
is like I mean, having me on isreally good, but having her
mention you is like way better.
As hard as I am, as loathe as Iam to say that, but I think
that's the kind of thing that weneed, that you are and I less
so.
But because I'm vocal and Ihave a lot of time on my hands,

(01:34:23):
that's the kind of connection Ithink we need to push.
Is that we're not.
A we don't live anywhere neareach other.
B.
I can't believe you don't havecats, which is kind of something
we may have to talk about.

I once did.
I lived on a farm and I had abunch.

Okay.
Okay, you've got some points.
Do not jump up there, sorry,but I think that it's the kind
of cross not cross-cultural, butcross-country connections that
we need to have and foster andmaintain and expand so that
we're all talking oh my Lord,you're about to hear such a
squawk, mikey, really don't.

(01:34:58):
Mikey, somebody really is abrat.
Is what we do?
That's a start point is thatyou build sort of the webbing
underneath.
It is that cross-countryconnection with people.
I knew it, that you don'tnecessarily, you wouldn't
necessarily run across in thecircles in which you live, and
that cross-country webbing, Ithink, is the beginning of the

(01:35:20):
socialized.
It's not socializing, but thebeginning of the.
Excuse me, just let me.
Mike, you haven't been up herein decades.
What are you doing?
Don't sit on my lap.
I know you hate me right now,but that's all right.
But I think you start there andyou have connections between
people who look at thingsdifferently, which I think is

(01:35:42):
also important.
Yes, because then we can saywe're not, we may not agree on
everything, we may have comefrom different places, but I'm
not selling my soul to DonaldTrump and you're not selling
your soul to Donald Trump.
We're finding a way to fightback.
Yes, it's those cross, and Ithink it's cross generational, I
think it's cross country and Ithink it's cross all the other

(01:36:05):
social sorts of things there are.
And I had somebody who workswith the steady state, one of
our fellows, steve Found, and hehad somebody who works with the
steady state, one of ourfellows, steve Found, and he had
sponsored some kind of aseminar here in Washington last
couple of weeks ago and asked meif I could put up anybody and I
said I could take four and hesaid OK, and somehow on the way
down here on the same bus, thethree of them lost the fourth,

(01:36:26):
which I think is a subject ofconcern.

But he's like, don't you?

guys want to go .
They're like, nah, he'll callus, okay, but they were
completely on a different planetthan I am, like in pretty much
every way possible.
And still there was enough of aconnection, because here's how
expansive I was.
I drove them to the subway, ohmy God, and I fed them.

(01:36:53):
But subway, oh my God, and Ifed them.
But now there's like a web, nowthere's a connection, and they
wrote to me, each of themseparately wrote to me after he
bombed Iran and said what do Ithink?
What do I think?
And that's another beginning ofsort of things that can be.
You are really a pain in theass.
I even put out extra food.

(01:37:21):
I'm sorry, jeff, but I knowthose are connections that are.
This is why children of minewould become serial killers.
For all I know, he's a serialkiller.
I don't know, look what you get.
I think those connections arewhat we need, yeah.

Yeah, I do as well .
I had an experience just acouple of days ago.
I saw a lifelong friend of mine.
He was a warrant officer in theArmy.
He was a warrant officer in theArmy, he was a Apache
helicopter pilot and he lives inthe same area that I do

(01:38:00):
Republican, not MAGA and we raninto each other at the gas pumps
.
I hadn't seen him for some time.
As far as speaking to him, andeven though I'm fairly certain
all of his foundational rootsare still conservative and
Republican, we were able tostand there for over an hour and

(01:38:24):
voice our concerns about whatwe're facing right, what we're
facing right.
There was such value in thatfor me.
I've reflected on that quite alittle bit since the
conversation and it's such arefreshing thing to be able to

(01:38:45):
have different positions.
And still, as you said, youknow you were you were as
different as you know, night andday between those three, three
or four people.
Well, four and one lost.
But somewhere between here andconnecticut but but you know to,
to be able to to say this thisthing is so important that we

(01:39:08):
can.
We can put everything else overhere for now and unify, and I
think we've.
If nothing else and I certainlyhope there's something else but
if nothing else, if we can finda way to increase that web of
connections.
I think that's so key.

(01:39:28):
And here's what's interesting.
I think that's so key andhere's what's interesting is

(01:39:53):
when two people get together andtalk that have kind of a common
goal I never imagined that onthis episode're connected to
break out of those molds ofusual discussion and to say you
know, this is not really in ourwheelhouse, so to speak, but we
both agree this is important andthose conversations are.

And I think we all have to say we're not going
to stay in our wheelhouses now,right, right.

I'm getting out our wheelhouses now, right,
right.

I'm getting out of the wheelhouse.

Yes, yes.

I'm not an expert in X, y and Z, but all
they need me to do is godowntown and make noise that I
can do or sign this thing, and Ithink we win.

Yes, you know, and let's wrap up with this,
because I'm not anow.
Sometimes people will tell meyou're such an optimist, jack.
I'm not.
I'm a realist and I know howto—because I think that's
important—I know how to weave anupbeat feeling into

(01:40:50):
uncomfortable realism.
Mm-hmm, an upbeat feeling intouncomfortable realism kind of
blend right, Because sometimesrealism, framed the wrong way,
can be very counterproductivebecause it kills fight, it kills
motivation.
So but I think we have to berealistic and look the phrase,

(01:41:15):
which is not politically correcttoday, but it's not over until
the fat lady sings.

Right.

And I'm not seeing the fat lady right, At least
not one who's singing.
That is a spirit that not onlythat I have and feel, but when
we are paying attention, that'sa spirit that is so woven
through our country, Mm-hmm.

(01:41:40):
So any talk of like I see Ipost something today and
somebody.
Well, it's already too late,Jack.
If I'm breathing and my heartis beating, my attitude is it's
already too late, jack.
If I'm breathing and my heartis beating, my attitude is it
ain't too late.
It's too late for me when theylower me into the ground.
That's my attitude yeah becauseany other attitude?

(01:42:04):
we just assist the very thingthat we claim to be resisting
yeah, exactly, you can't.

you have to.
I mean, nelson Mandela didn'tever do that, no Right.
And I'm sure there are others,but that was the first thing
that came to me is there areplenty of people who've stayed
with the fight and if they cando it, I can do it, and they can
do it, you can do it.
And I do think the connectionand I do think you're doing a
fabulous thing by building someof the connection- Well, I

(01:42:32):
appreciate that.
You can sleep well tonight.
Tomorrow may be a different.
I do.
I do mean that, jack, because Iwas like oh God, I've you know,
I've only done this on really,really friendly places and I
know if he's friendly, I can'ttell.
And of course, oh my God, oh myGod, steve said shut up and do
it.
Mr Gracious, in fact he washere and I was like Steve, oh

(01:42:55):
really, he was here.

We live about maybe two miles apart, oh nice
and his longtime family friends.

His kids are friends of my families and they
used to come visit my parents.
Is that the sweetest thing ever?
Oh, wow, wow.
But he said to me I can'tremember exactly what he said,
but he basically said it'sanother block in the wall.
This is a connection.
I said what if we don't like?
It was like oh, for God's sakes.
So I think that's what we sayis today.
We may have built some morebridges.

What a perfect ending that's.
Yeah, I I'm so grateful forthose kind words and likewise,
gosh, you've.
You've shared so much that Ithink people who were excited
about listening to this episodeor watching this episode were
wanting to hear.
But, like I said early on, thishas been so conversational that

(01:43:41):
you've also filled in.
You know, when you watchsomebody in a rigid setting
where it's just rapid firequestions, you know and they
answer them, they move on.
You never get a sense.
I think you never get a senseof who that person is.
You got their answer, but itdidn't tell you a whole lot
about them, and so I think themore conversational something is

(01:44:05):
, you do get to learn more aboutthat person, and to me, that's
where the real meaning of theanswers they give comes from,
Because without that context, itcould be the curveball right.

That was unnecessarily ugly.
I would just like to say so,margaret, thank you oh.
Jack.
Thank you so, margaret.

thank you oh, jack thank you, it was so much.

No, thank you.

You have been very pleasant, very cordial and just
great to spend this much timewith me.

And.

I think you and I could probably agree that for as
many people as we have, thatmight not like us.
I think we found we like eachother at the very least.

I would say that at the least.
Thank you so much.
It has been a pleasure.

Thank you If someone weren't so whiny.
Yeah, tell Mikey he can relaxnow.
And Jack said hey.

I'll tell him All right, thank you.
Thank you, take care, I'm stillon All right, you too.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Confronting Curveball: Inside the CIA's Iraq Intelligence Controversy

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

All Episodes

Confronting Curveball: Inside the CIA's Iraq Intelligence Controversy

Crime Junkie