Facing Forward: Michael Fanone's Survival, Testimony, and Fight for Democracy

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, man.
So life has changed for you, nodoubt, and I've got some
questions here.
I tried to go through and comeup with some questions that I
haven't heard you ask a milliontimes before.
I don't know how close I got tothat, but we'll see.
First one I want to ask is whatpersonal moment after January

(00:23):
6th has stuck with you the most,and and it could be something
that happened in that day or oranything that followed- you know
, man, um, there's been so many,um, there have been so many, I

(01:06):
guess, each and every moment tome.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
And what happened to my, you know, my colleagues on
January 6th, incredibly gratefulfor the opportunities that you
know that I've been able to takeadvantage of.
Sure, spend more time with thefamily, because, yeah, I was an
artonics cop.
um yeah, I spent 20 years withthe dc police and my schedule

(01:31):
was dictated by drug dealers, sothere was, uh, you know, a lot
of time spent away from uhfriends and family, um time
spent away from my kids missingbirthday parties and and
holidays and things that I thinkreally only people that you
know work in service of thiscountry can understand and

(01:52):
appreciate.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
You bet I read where you've got four daughters.
Four daughters, yeah, I've gottwo and I also have a son, so I
don't want to leave him out.
He'll be pissed.
But you know they are whatgrounds me.
You know, to a degree, and toonly the degree that I've been

(02:18):
able to read about you.
I think we share it.
In terms of our personality,our volatility level may be
similar, and so it's good for meto have people in my life that
ground me, because, prior tohaving a family and having kids,
I've always said, when I was inthe Navy and we went on

(02:42):
deployment, I was so glad Ididn't even have a girlfriend at
the time, let alone a wife andkids man.
That made it so much easierbecause I watched these guys who
, a month into it, they're aboutready to you know.
So, yeah, how, how did being anarcotics cop in any way, shape

(03:08):
or form, if at all, prepare youfor that day?

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Well, I mean, it certainly wasn't the first time
that I had seen a violence.
Um, you know, I had experiencedthat my entire career.
Um, it wasn't the first timethat I had seen people who have
lost control because of theanger that they're experiencing

(03:38):
in the moment.
Just never to that magnitude,never so many people and never.
You know, like I've been in alot of fights.
I've been in a lot of fights asa cop, but the vast majority of
the time as a cop, you'retrying to pursue somebody and
put this bad person in a badplace.
They're just trying to get thehell away from you.

(04:00):
You know, I could probablycount on two hands how many
times people in my careeractually turned and squared up
to me and, you know, decided tobring the fight to me.
This was that times.
You know 15,000.
You know, these people camethere knowing full well that
they were going to go toe to toewith cops and and they really

(04:21):
did they took the fight to us.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, and I know full well that in those moments it's
all about what's?
The sensory experience ofwhat's happening right now.
So it's not likely that thishappened during that.
But after following this, wasthere a point in time where
you're like, fuck, I can'tbelieve I didn't get killed.

(04:45):
I thought I was, it was over,it was all fucking done.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, no, I mean, I experienced like probably one of
the I mean it was the mostsignificant adrenaline dump of
my entire life Like I was highas fuck on adrenaline for a week
, yeah, and it really wasn'tuntil that started to like wear
off, that you start thinkingabout things like that.

(05:13):
Um, sure you know, and andrecognizing.
And then you know, going backand like watching my body worn
camera footage from the day, uh,and seeing like how significant
and how savage the assault was,and then coming to find out
that, you know, not only was Ibeaten, not only did I suffer a
traumatic brain injury, but Ialso had a heart attack.

(05:34):
You know, at the time I was 40years old.
I'm in good shape I always havebeen and to you know, to learn
that you suffered potentiallylife-threatening injuries at the
hands of people over fuckingpolitics, and then later come to
learn that it was not justpolitics but it was lies.

(05:57):
It was one person, one man,although calling him a man I
think is a stretch.
One man, although calling him aman, I think is a stretch.
But you know, this one selfish,self-centered asshole lying to
America and inspiring thismadness that we all watched
transpire on January 6th, rightno-transcript.

(06:59):
Yeah, I mean, you know thatTrump supporters are, you know
they're not all.
I mean, listen, you got theguys that are in the cult, and
the cult is the cult, and you'renot going to convince these
people anything.
And, quite frankly, I don'tgive a fuck too.
The only thing I want to do isrid America of these cultist,
fascist assholes.
But when it comes to so manymany Americans that were like,

(07:25):
just voted for Trump becausehe's the, you know, he's on the
Republican ticket, despiteknowing full well that this guy
is, you know, destructive anddivisive, and that he is he
revels in other people's pain.
He revels in other people'spain and I think there's
probably a lot of people thatvoted for him in the last

(07:46):
election.
They're starting to recognizethe fact that he is devoid of
any compassion or empathy,because they're suffering too
and he doesn't give a shit.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Right.
I couldn't agree more and I'mglad to hear you say that,
because I've posted somethingalong those lines several times
and I get people that push backand go oh no, they're never
going to fucking wake up.
And I'm like I live in themiddle of them, where the county
I live in, eight out of tenvoted for people or voted for

(08:15):
Trump.
Last time they're waking up, Isee it.
I interact with them.
Like you said, not every one ofthem is the hardcore cultist
Right.
Some of them voted Republicanjust because they're Republican
and people want to dismiss that.
But we all understand thatbecause we've all done that

(08:36):
before you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
I mean, you know, it's that old adage that you're
constantly, you know, inAmerican elections you're
choosing between the lesser oftwo evils and so many Americans
because there's no inspiringcandidates, there's no one out
there that, like, really makesme want to get involved.
You're just, you know, aligningyourself with whatever party

(09:04):
you think best fits yourideology and your perspective
and you choose that candidate.
And it's made us lazy voters.
But it's also it's made ourelected leaders incredibly and
inherently lazy.
And it's allowed this, you knowthey say that the culture war

(09:31):
to to come about because peoplereally don't give a shit about
the issues anymore, the policies.
They just want to.
You know, they just want toexpress their anger at the other
side because they believe thatthat's the, that's who's
responsible for bringing me downor making my life more
difficult, and it's thepoliticians that are feeding
that.
It is.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
I know you've worked construction right, and I worked
construction both in between mysophomore and junior year, my
junior year, my senior year andthen the first year year and a
half after I graduated right.
So we've both kind of lived andfunctioned in that environment.

(10:09):
I'm using this as an examplebecause I know it's one you can
identify with.
At the end of a 10, 12-hour hot, sweaty-ass, sweaty ass, bust
ass workday, the averageconstruction worker is not going

(10:30):
home and flipping on the newsso they can catch up on the
latest political happenings,right?
You go home and have a coldbeer, you know, peel your socks
off and throw your head back.
So, with so many peopleapproaching politics like that,
don't you think that it comesback to the way you vote is I'm

(10:53):
a Republican, so I voteRepublican.
I'm a Democrat, so I voteDemocrat.
Because those of us who areonline a lot, it's easy to think
that everybody's exposed to thesame shit that we are, when
that's anything but the case.
How much of that, michael, doyou think played into the mass

(11:14):
hypnosis that Trump pulled onAmerica and developed his cult
out of?

Speaker 2 (11:23):
I mean, I think it.
You know it was probably themost significant factor in the
rise of Donald Trump.
I mean, if you remember, like Ido, you know this messaging
started long before Trumpdecided to run in 2016.
You know, you had the rise ofkind of like the anti-Obama

(11:46):
movement.
You had the Tea Partyaning orright-wing media outlets.
They created a narrative andthey would cherry-pick moments.

(12:11):
You know, ilhan Omar sayssomething outrageous, or
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez sayssomething outrageous, and we
could cherry-pick these momentsand put them on television and
run it 24 hours a day and makehardworking Americans or just
anyone that watches that newsnetwork that's already
predisposed to, you know, tothat way of thinking, or you

(12:32):
know political way of thinking,that they're under attack and
they're under attack by, youknow, the left wing, socialist,
communist, marxist, uh elementsand, um, I mean, listen, there
were a lot of democrats that dodidn't do themselves any favors.

(12:53):
Um, you know, absolutely, they,the, these extremes, are what
created, uh, or allowed fordonald trump, trump to kind of
hop in there.
And you know, for the firsttime in American history, at
least in my memory, somebody waswilling to exploit the worst

(13:16):
things about America and theworst things about Americans and
use them against us.
And now you know, here we are.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, what has that experience done?
I can only imagine.
I'm comparing this to someexperiences I've had with guys I
served with right.
What has it done for arelationship, for example, like
between you and Harry Dunn?
When you guys are together, isthere that incredibly deep sense

(13:51):
of brotherhood, like we fuckingget it.
We were there, we were in it.
You and I were connected at theheart and soul because of this.
Do you have that experience?

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, I mean I'll tell you, like the respect that
I have for for Harry and forAquilino and and Danny, it
really stems from.
I mean, we all had dramaticallydifferent experiences that day,
sure, but it was making theconscious decision that you know

(14:27):
I'm going to testify beforeCongress.
I think there's, you know,there's a lot of things people
don't know about that hearing,namely that our police
departments vehemently opposedour participation, so much so
that up until really the 11thhour, they didn't even want us
to wear our uniforms.

(14:47):
Are you shitting me?
Oh, I'm dead serious.
Yeah, no, they wanted nothingto do with that, and I've always
.
I like to say that, if you wantto go back to how narcotics
prepared me, working narcoticsis kind of like we're like

(15:08):
redheaded stepchildren of lawenforcement.
It's kind of an asymmetricentity.
Typically, the guys that aredrawn to it have a chip on their
shoulder.
They're probably best describedas assholes like myself, and so
at that point, I couldn't havegiven a shit less what the

(15:28):
police department said, and Iwas going to do it regardless.
I felt honestly, I felt like Ihad a duty, a responsibility,
more so than I think I'd everfelt in my entire law
enforcement career, like thiswas so much more important than
any drug bust or locking up somemurderer, like this was.

(15:49):
You know, I really did have aresponsibility to myself, to my
department, you know, to mycolleagues, to my kids, and so
that shared responsibility, Ithink is is what draws the four
of us together.
And understanding that becauseI think that's something that no

(16:10):
one else because there was onlyfour, four of us that testified
that day no one else had thoseexperiences and then testified
about them before Congress inthe way that we did, and so,
yeah, there's, there's a deeplevel of mutual respect there.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
And thank God for that personality.
I think you'd probably agreewith me that anything but that
kind of personality in narcoticsprobably doesn't work well.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Is that fair to say?
Why do we have this stupidpolicy?
And this policy contradictswith that policy?
Yeah, I, I just you know, like,um, it prepared me well for, uh
, for everything I experienced.
And then you know, uh, beingcalled names every day, all day,
by pretty much everyone thatyou came in contact with

(17:19):
professionally.
Um, you know that that thathelped out a lot with the
Twitter trolls, and you know thepeople that I encounter from
time to time in public.
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
And I worked in a correctional facility for a
while and I used to always havethe experience of I'd be talking
with an inmate and in my head Ididn't express this, of course,
but in my head I'm like dudefor what you are in here for the
only difference between you andI is that you fucking got

(17:52):
caught.
I'm going home tonight, but yougot caught.
You know what I mean, that Iwould assume you almost have to
be right up to the precipice ofcriminal mentality to understand
criminal mentality.
Otherwise you're just like afish out of water.

(18:14):
Is that fair to say?

Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah, no.
I mean, you know, likeespecially working narcotics,
like you're constantly in thegray area, especially working
narcotics, like you're you'reconstantly in the gray area.
And so yeah, no, I think thatthat's an accurate assessment.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, yeah.
So, with with what you seehappening now, which is
basically we have an autocratright in in the white house
doing shit that people are, youknow, the lawsuits are filed and
every now and then, the supremecourt will will rule against
him, but for the most part, he'sjust doing what he wants.

(18:56):
I mean, there's, there's a guythat got snatched up, that's in
a prison in el salvador that, uh, various courts have said bring
him home, but they're just likeyou know what?
Fuck it.
We're not bringing the guy home.
Did you think it would get thismuch worse by 2025 or after

(19:18):
that experience?
Were you like, okay, this isthe moment.
This shit's going to workitself through the courts,
people are going to be heldaccountable and we're going to
move past this.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
I never thought that.
I mean the moment that that hewon reelection, I knew that.
You know it was going to be adisaster.
Yeah, I didn't know.
Like, if you had asked me to, Imean there were a few things
that I could tell you, I thinkin advance, because he had been
telling us that he was going todo those things.

(19:53):
You know his campaign Right,take the pardons, for example.
You know there was all this talkback and forth and and I even
went, you know, toe-to-toe witha couple of uh, you know, media
personalities who were like no,no, it's going to be like, uh,
very, uh calculated, and youknow he's going to go in there
with a scalpel and there arecertain people that shouldn't

(20:14):
have been convicted, blah, blah,blah.
I was like no, he, no, he's not, he's not and it's going to be
for no other reason than he justdoesn't give a shit and he's
too lazy to go case by case andthen come to find out you know
the reporting on that is like hewas.
They sat down with him, theystarted going case by case and
he's like, nah, fuck it, pardonthem all.
I fuck it, pardon them all.
I don't have time for this, I'mgoing to go do something else.

(20:36):
And so here we are.
You know, listen, you can debatewhether or not you know
pardoning individuals that youknow committed the act of
trespassing that day, should orshould not have been, you know,
tried or the resources beenutilized to go after.
I'm in, you know, I believethat they should have, because

(20:58):
of the totality of the event,right.
That being said, the vastmajority of those individuals
never served any jail time andthe ones that did, they didn't
serve jail time because theytrespassed on Capitol grounds.
They served jail time becausethey already had criminal
convictions which allowed for ahigher sentencing guideline,

(21:21):
which put their asses typicallyin jail for, you know, something
like 15 days to 30 days.
But that's, you know, that'sthose individuals.
Then you get down to the 530,some odd individuals who
assaulted law enforcementofficers, myself included, part,

(21:41):
and I just think it'sunforgivable Did you about lose
your fucking mind when thatbecame reality.
I expected it.
So, I mean, the one thing Icould say is I appreciate the
fact that, like you know Trumpever since day one when he
announced his candidacy in WacoTexas.

(22:02):
For those of you who have beento Waco Texas, I've been there
myself.
There's not a whole lot to seein Waco Texas, but it was the
site of one of the bloodiestencounters between members of
the you know American right wingextremist movement,
anti-government movement, andlaw enforcement, in which a
number of law enforcementofficers lost their lives.

(22:22):
And this is where the guychooses to announce his
candidacy for president.
So that should have been a bigfucking clue.
You don't have to be a detectiveto understand that some bad
shit is going to happen, and so,yes, I mean, I didn't.
I wasn't surprised, and so,therefore, like I was able to

(22:45):
contain myself a little better.
What I didn't expect was howthe Department of Justice and
their relationship with meliterally turned on a dime.
It went from like you are avictim of these crimes and we
are here to support you to youare the perpetrator.

(23:11):
Fuck off.
Right, that's hard to even getyour head around, you know yeah,
and then I mean I'll tell youlike I, I I'm more pissed off at
the american people because, inmy mind, each and every person

(23:31):
that cast a vote for donaldtrump voted for that.
Each and every person that thatvoted for trump voted for that.
Each and every person thatvoted for Trump voted for these
pardons, and I don't want tohear the shit that you know
that's not what I voted for.
I voted for his economicpolicies.
Well, how's that working outfor you?
But yes, you did, because hetold you he was going to do that
.
And if you know, if you're soself-centered and so lacking in

(23:56):
empathy that you can't recognizethe fact that pardoning these
people would put otherlaw-abiding Americans, americans
who serve this country, likemyself for two decades in danger
, then fuck you yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, you know, it's funny you say about voting for
the economic reasons.
Right, I got into it before theelection.
A couple of months before theelection my wife and I were out
on a walk and a neighbor of minea couple of houses down he's a
pharmacist he was out walkingwith his dog and he had fucking
Trump signs and flags all overhis yard Right, and I couldn't

(24:36):
help myself and as we he wascoming one way, we went the
other and I said my wife knowswhat I'm about to do something.
You can almost hear her assslam Like oh fuck.
I said, hey, you know yourboy's going to lose, right, and
just nice mellow tone and helaughed and said, oh, I don't

(25:01):
know about that.
And I just kind of fuckingsnapped right and he said do you
have a 401k?
And in that moment heidentified this typical mindset
of zeroing in on one issue sotightly that you have pushed

(25:25):
every other goddamn thing he'sdone or has said he will do out
into the periphery.
I've driven by and honked andkind of rolled down the window
and had a couple of things tosay.
Since the election, as theeconomy craters, I love to ask
him how his 401k is doing.

(25:48):
He doesn't reply anymore.
But that's, yeah, it'sdefenseless, like you said, for
either you did vote for just theeconomy, which means you're a
fucking idiot because youignored everything else, or you

(26:08):
didn't, and you actually likeTrump and you agree with all of
his bullshit.
But now that things are goingeven worse, you're saying oh
well, I voted, you know, becauseof the economy.
Neither one are excusable.
In my opinion, which I find outsometimes, nobody cares, you

(26:31):
and me both.
Yeah, yeah, your book tell meabout.
Was that any type of catharticexperience or did it rekindle
some emotions?

Speaker 2 (26:46):
putting that together , no, I mean to be honest with
you, it was very cathartic, nice.
I mean really a lot of thatjust had to do with the fact
that my co-writer, johnSchiffman, was just a really
good dude.
Yeah, you know he was aninvestigative reporter from

(27:07):
Reuters, but he was like realeasy to talk to and I'll be
honest with you, man, we spentlike the vast majority of the
time like running tape anddrinking beer.
Perfect, that was right up myalley.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
I could, oh yeah, drink beer and run my mouth till
the cows come home, right andI'm sure that allowed him to to
capture that genuine essence ofyou, that that unfiltered,
uninhibited, just here it is.
I'm.
I'm not cleaning my act up justbecause there's a writer here

(27:42):
that's recording this forhistory.
I want the shit out there as itis.
Is that your mindset?

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Oh yeah, no doubt.
I mean I I think the book thatit describes like a very, you
know, specific period of time inmy life and life's an evolution
, and there's a lot of thingsthat I've evolved from in that
book.
I mean, if you read it, I thinkyou might come away with a
sense of you know I'm lookingfor like our kumbaya moment in

(28:10):
the country, like I'm notlooking for that anymore.
I just want to win.
I just want to win and it'll beup to you know, the next
generation to mend the fenceswith you know these maggots and
their kids, because I just Idon't have it in me.

(28:32):
At the expense of Trump and hissupporters, we face threats and
swatting incidents and bombthreats and physical harassment.
My mom's had shit thrown on her.
It's an endless thing.
If there's any Trump supportersout there that are watching

(28:52):
this, I want you to think aboutwhat you would do if somebody
threw shit on your mother andyou you know what would you do
if some guy threw shit on yourmom because he attributes your
son to being a traitor to thiscountry and that I don't like

(29:15):
Trump and so that justifies thataction.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah, as you well know and I would hope, anybody
watching when it comes to yourmother and your kids, if there's
anything that will bring thefucking ugly out in a man Right
thing that will bring thefucking ugly out in a man right
it's screwing with either themother or your kids.

(29:44):
I would guess that kind ofthing takes some restraint to
just step back and not.
Let me say this there are manytimes in my life that require
restraint, where I getincredibly close to doing

(30:09):
something really fucking stupidright, and I want to with every
cell of my body.
And thankfully because I have afamily, I don't.
I've learned to pull back.
Before I was married, before Ihad kids, I didn't often pull
back.

(30:29):
Do you identify with any ofthat in relationship to having a
family versus when you didn'thave a family?

Speaker 2 (30:36):
Oh, hell, yes to having a family versus when you
didn't have a family.
Oh hell, yes, you know I debateoften, you know, police
policing and policing in Americaand punitive punishment and
things like that, and people arealways like punitive punishment
.
It doesn't work.
It's not a deterrent.
It worked for me.
There's lots of things that Iwant to do every single day, but
I don't do them because I don'twant to go to jail.

(30:56):
You bet your ass, absolutely.
It doesn't come down to.
There's no other deterrent orbarriers in my way, I would rest
peacefully at night, havingdone each and every one of those
things.
I just don't want to go to jail.
Yeah, that's why, when I youknow, when Biden pardoned me

(31:19):
which was kind of ridiculous inand of itself, but I remember
somebody called me up and theysaid, oh, you've been pardoned.
It was like a reporter I had noidea that this was coming down
the pipe and I said well, can Itrade it in for future acts
instead of, for you know,testifying before testifying

(31:42):
honestly before the selectcommittee in Congress about what
I experienced as a policeofficer on January 6th?
And unfortunately, the answerwas no.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
God, wow, wow, how.
How did you find?
Well, first of all, was theremuch time where you and biden
were alone to just be able tohave a one-on-one conversation.
Did you have that experiencewith him?

Speaker 2 (32:15):
yeah, quite a few times?

Speaker 1 (32:17):
what few times?
What was your take of the manone-on-one?

Speaker 2 (32:32):
I mean, listen, I had conversations to be like
incredibly personable, um, verylike easy to talk to, you know,
despite being the president ofthe United States.
Um, he's somebody I'd probablydrink a beer with, um, but no
doubt, like you know, fathertime and and, uh, the stress of

(32:53):
the job, I think, took its tolland um, you know, it's just.
I mean, listen, I think there'sa lot of things that were wrong
about the way that thetransition took place, but, you
know, I also, like, I mean, Iwould consider him to be, you

(33:16):
know, somebody that I had somelevel of admiration for and was
friendly with, and he, I mean,it really just stems from the
fact that he was really good tomy family, right, and so that
goes a long way.
Yeah, it does, especially whenyou're the president of the
United States and there's a fuckton of other things that you,

(33:37):
you know, probably need to uh,to be focused on, not like some
asshole cop that got the shitkicked out of him on January 6th
, but he did, and uh, and alsomy family, most importantly, and
so, um, yeah, no, it, it was uh.
It was sad to see uh, to see itplay out that way.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
Yeah, I don't know how many people will will agree
that this is a good quality insomeone, but I admired this
trait that I think he has.
President Biden always seemedlike to me Someone who were he
not president and he was comingout of a bar and somebody's

(34:17):
getting lippy who wouldn'thesitate to stick a fucking fist
in somebody's mouth, right heoh, you know it's.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
It's funny you said that because, like a lot of our
candid conversations involved,uh, you know, talk of acts of
violence and, um, I'm just likeyou know this is is what America
needs to hear.
Like we need authenticity.
Right Polished shit is just notinspiring.
It's not Like it is okay toexpress anger and outrage when

(34:48):
the moment requires it and,believe me, I think we can all
agree this moment requires angerand outrage, all agree, this
moment requires anger andoutrage and we're looking for
politicians, statesmen, leadersnot managers, leaders, uh who
are going to express thoseemotions, uh, and really speak

(35:10):
to the moment.
Yeah, and unfortunately, Idon't know where the fuck they
are.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
I agree.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
But not nearly enough .

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Right now in politics , if any, of course we've got
Trump in office, of course, butany other president at this time
in history?
If you want to fire somebody,fire your speechwriters.
Tell them there's no need foryou anymore.
Go up there and fucking talkfrom the gut.
Talk from the heart.
Don't pre-plan this anymore.
Go up there and fucking talkfrom the gut.
Talk from the heart.
Don't pre-plan this shit.

(35:39):
Go up there and talk toAmericans, like Americans are
talking to each other at theirkitchen tables or in the bar,
wherever else it may be.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yeah, I mean this reliance on polls too.
I mean you know, like this ideathat before you can even pick a
position or take a side, likeyou've got to do 50 polls and
see what this subsection ofAmerica thinks about this and
that, and it's just I meanlisten, like it's good to know

(36:09):
what the people are thinking.
Like I applaud that.
Like you shouldn't justwilly-nilly make up your mind on
things, especially when youhave it, don't have experiences.
You know I'm not going to goand and uh, become an elected
official.
Uh, well, I won't periodbecause I'm never going to
fucking run.
But I wouldn't start talkingabout, you know, farming in the

(36:30):
farm industry that I've neverfucking worked in and I wouldn't
expect somebody, uh, a farmer,to tell me how to be a cop and
you know so on and so forth andso like that's good, but having
them run your life, you knowpeople just need to be it's sad
to say like that.
We actually have to encourageauthenticity.

(36:51):
But you know we just don't haveenough of it from our, from our
leadership.
You know we just don't haveenough of it from our, from our
leadership?

Speaker 1 (36:58):
No, we don't.
And I also brought that upabout President Biden because
I've read several things aboutTrump in that he is so, when it
comes down to actually having todo some hard shit with somebody
like fire them that he'scompletely non confrontational
and always has someone else doit because he's uncomfortable

(37:21):
looking them in the eye anddoing it himself.
Trump look, he's the guy thathe wouldn't fight you one-on-one
.
He'd whistle and have three orfour assholes behind him come up
and kick your ass, but hewouldn't do it himself.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
And look, this is the redneck the same way, he
wouldn't go serve in the fuckingmilitary.
Oh, absolutely, he came up withsome you know stupid excuse.
He's got bone spurs or whateverthe fuck else.
And it just, you know, man,it's like like I mean, you,
obviously you serve this countrylike I've got so many friends
in the military that, like aregetting are swept up in the

(38:08):
spectacle of you know his sayingthat he admires the military,
or hugging a flag, or likepicking fights with anybody that
wants to protest.
Uh, you know america, or theamerican flag, or or like any of
that shit.
But then, like, in, you know,in private, you fucking spits on

(38:29):
their graves and fucking talksabout how he doesn't want to be
around a bunch of you knowwounded, fucking veterans.
He's not going to fucking, youknow, meet them at dover.
Uh, the bodies coming back fromoverseas.
It's like how much uh,disrespect, um, will it take for
you to recognize that this guydoesn't give a shit about you?

(38:52):
He doesn't give a shit aboutanybody, but he has no ability
to comprehend service andservitude to this country and
the sacrifices that are made bymen and women in the military
and law enforcement.
He just, he can't comprehend it.
And, in fact, because he can'tcomprehend it.

(39:12):
He thinks that you are a sucker.
Thinks that you are a sucker.
He thinks that you're an idiotfor putting on a uniform and
going overseas and fighting forthe country.
Right, right, that is just.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Oh yeah, and for for the viewers, for the listeners,
let me clarify a comment I'vemade.
It's not that I want apresident who's going to go in
and start getting in fistfightswith world leaders or, you know,
staff.
Here's my point on that, andthis may be the rural Missouri
redneck coming out in me, right,but one measure of a man that

(39:55):
I've always used is if somebodygets in his face, will he stand
there and take it or run, orwill he lock horns and say we're
going to fucking find out todaywho's the better man?
The reason that's important tome, because it's that attitude.

(40:19):
It's that attitude that goeswith them into more civilized
positions, right.
It's not that if somebody waslike that in their youth, that
they're going to take that intothe White House and just start
swinging, knocking people out,right, but they're going to take
the attitude of you bring thatshit to me and we're going to

(40:40):
have problems fast.
And that's what.
No, go ahead.
No, no, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
No, it's like the golden rule of leadership you
never ask your subordinates todo anything that you're not
willing to do yourself.
There you go, and he epitomizesthe opposite of that.
Absolutely so.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah, yeah, no, I think you are dead on about that
authentic expression we needfrom politicians right now.
Look, I see people, I seeDemocratic leadership, some who
are coming out and their heart'sin the right place.
They want to speak to thismoment right, but they're trying

(41:26):
to do it within the rigidconfines of what's acceptable as
a national level politicianright, and what that allows is
not enough for this moment.
I think most Americans are justlike quit with all the icing on

(41:46):
the cake shit.
Get down to the cake.
Talk to me.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Yeah Well, and I think also, you know, I think
you would probably agree, Jackthis moment is about democracy
and preserving democracy in thiscountry and setting aside, like
all the other issues, which Iget it, they're important, but
if we don't have a democracy, wewon't have the opportunity to
advocate for our positions onthose issues, because we're just

(42:10):
going to be told what to thinkand what to do and when to do it
by you know, the dear leader,what to do and when to do it by
you know the dear leader.
And so what I want to see ispoliticians that are going to
fight for democracy and you know, with each and every tool at
their disposal.
You know whether it's, you know, getting up on the Senate floor

(42:32):
and talking for 25 hours andtalking for 25 hours, or you
know Ruben Gallego holding upthe you know nominations in the
VA because of the absoluteinsanity that Trump gutting the
VA.
You know listen, like I've beento a VA with a couple of my

(42:55):
buddies that you know thatserved and it was the most
depressing thing that I everexperienced in my entire life.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Bar none.
Yes, the most depressingexperience ever to see men and
women who have bled for thiscountry treated in a.
I mean almost shit.
My vet is fucking uh.
Cleaner and had a fucking ismore efficient than a fucking va

(43:24):
hospital right.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
Oh, a few years back in 2019 I believe, um, I had a
mild heart attack.
It was more.
It was a coronary vasospasm dueto some uncontrolled high blood
pressure.
But, long story short, theyshipped me by ambulance to the
Kansas City VA, right, and theykeep me for a couple of days and

(43:50):
they're doing tests.
And in the back of my mind, asgrateful as I am for any care
that I have received from the VA, when it comes to something
like heart surgery, in the backof my mind I was going please,
fuck, not here.
Please, let me live old enoughto be like 65, 67 and get on

(44:10):
Medicare.
So I have a choice of whocracks my chest open, right, I
don't want them to do it here.
And, as you said, look, noknock on the VA per se.
It's just that we all knowthat's not where your best
doctors are going, right, andthe money's not there.
The money wasn't really therebefore and now it sure shit

(44:34):
isn't there to do what they needto do.
I agree, when my wife came in,she got up to my room and she
was just like gobsmacked, likemy God, here, as you said,
people who have bled for thiscountry and in some VA hospitals

(44:56):
it's like going to a first aidtent it's scary.
I guess my point is to see thatdecline to any degree just
isn't acceptable.
It's going to cost lives.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yeah, I mean no doubt .
No doubt it's going to costlives.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
Yeah, how has your life changed in terms of your
decisions regarding threats,where you go, what you do, how
long you stay, how you get there?

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Has it changed or is it just pretty much the same?
Fuck it, I mean, I'm um muchmore aware.
Um, you know, I have a plan youknow with, with my family
members, um, and so you knowit's like, um, it's kind of
crazy man.
It's almost like going to workevery day when I was a cop.

(45:56):
Yeah, just going out on thestreet is, you know, you're
preparing for, you know, apotential like worst-case
scenario.
Like I fucking bring a traumakit, like everywhere I go, yeah,
which you know I didn't thinkabout it.
And then, like, I was talkingto a reporter buddy of mine and

(46:20):
he's like you carry a trauma kiteverywhere you go for like what
?
For gunshots?
And I was like, yeah, um, Imean, I get death threats on a
daily basis, yeah, and I knowthat, like, a lot of them are
just these little Twitter trollsand whatnot, but you know it's
still, it's, it is a is a verystrange feeling knowing that

(46:52):
there's people out there in thiscountry that hate me so much
that they would like to kill me,just for what happened to me on
January 6th and the fact that Ihad the courage to speak out
about it.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yeah, that's a mind-blowing thing to try to
process for anybody.
By the way, regarding thetrauma kit, I'm a former Navy
corpsman or medic.
Both of our cars have traumakits in them, so we go nowhere
without a trauma kit.
My wife, who is considerablyyounger than me and comes from a

(47:35):
different era, younger than meand comes from a different era.
She doesn't verbalize it, but Iknow she looks at me like this
is one of those fucked up oldvets.
Right, he thinks the war isstill going on, but in my head.
There is a war still going on inour own country.
There is a war still going onin our own country when people

(47:57):
want to kill you and it pales incomparison to what you get and
everybody knows your name anddamn few people know my name,
but I've gotten a couple andyeah, that's a war to me.
When somebody has declared,yeah, if I see you I'll blow
your fucking head off, I treatthat like war.

(48:19):
Right, you have to.
And it's not so much.
And I think, especially havingbeen a former narcotics officer,
I think we probably are kind ofon the same frequency with this
.
It's not that I don't takeserious the people who say you
know I'm going to blow you up orshoot you, I do.

(48:40):
But the people who concern methe most are the ones who won't
say a damn thing.
And I step out on my porch somemorning and somebody's two
blocks away with a crosshair onmy forehead and I never know
what hit me.
That's the kind of stuff Ithink about and I, I do.

(49:03):
Uh, I rarely drives my wifenuts, I rarely drive home the
same way, right, I'm alwayszigzagging.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
Yeah, no, I mean that was a habit I picked up 25
years ago and, um, it stuck withme my entire career.
But yeah, no, and I mean youknow like it's.
I think what a lot of peoplelike fail to understand is
because I do like I'll get it inthese conversations from time

(49:31):
to time People are like, well,you're just, you know you're
being hysterical Like, well,people that tried to kill me on
January 6th are now free, and alot of them believe that, one,
I'm a traitor to the country,but two, that you know I'm the
reason that they wereincarcerated for however long

(49:55):
they were incarcerated beforeTrump let them out, incarcerated
for however long they wereincarcerated before Trump let
them out.
And then there was just a lotof others that identified me as,
like a spokesperson for lawenforcement that day, and so
these are the people thatconcern me.
And also, you know Trump himselfhas dehumanized the police

(50:16):
officers that were there so much.
You know he's called us thugs.
You know he's made a lot oflike off-the-cuff references
about.
You know our treatment of theJanuary 6th patriots.
You know his supporters, and so, in that, you know that's the
dehumanizing language thatpeople use to justify attacking

(50:37):
the Capitol on January 6th.
It's the same dehumanizinglanguage that inspires people to
attack me and then knowing, hey, maybe Trump will just pardon
me for killing Mike Fanonebecause he pardoned these other
guys.
And I think that that's, youknow, in Trump's mind.
It's like I can instill fear,maybe not in Mike Fanone, but I

(51:03):
can instill fear in others whomight look to Mike and say, oh,
maybe I should speak up about myexperience, or maybe I should,
you know, get involved in someway.
But whoa, look at what he'sdoing to this poor asshole.
Right, yeah, I'm not going toengage, yeah, and so, oh, I

(51:26):
agree with you.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Some of these assholes out there, I guarantee
you are thinking.
You know what as symbolic asthat guy is to the whole
anti-Trump thing.
If I knock him off, I thinkTrump would pardon me.
You know they've got to bethinking that he sent that

(51:48):
message when he pardoned theJ6ers.
How could they not?

Speaker 2 (51:53):
I mean I know they do because they talk about it on
social media.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Okay, so you've seen it.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
It's, at least it's you know, circling somebody's,
you know somebody's mind outthere, Quite a few people.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
And I think you make a good point.
It may not shut you up, may notshut me up, but there are a lot
of people that it will shut up.
They're like, okay, I don'tknow, I'm not Michael Fennel,
I'm not Jack, I'm not this guy,I'm not this person.

(52:28):
I'm fucking scared, so I'm justgoing to stay out of it.
And that weakens the resistancefor every person who will no
longer speak out.
So in that regard, he's havingsome success with that.
Whether he shuts you up or not,like you said, just the fact

(52:51):
that he's hammering, chippingaway, they see that and go.
I don't want that shit in mylife.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
You know I don't want death threats.
And I mean it's, it has hadalmost an immediate effect.
I mean, if you look at, whatare we like 70, 80 days into the
this?
Yeah, I think I think so.
So look at where we're at todayversus where we were 70 or 80
days into the firstadministration.

(53:20):
First of all, like the firstprotest happened like the day
after his inauguration, and itwas over 100,000 people came to
the Capitol to protest.
You know Trump and his rhetoricand presumed policies and his
rhetoric and presumed policies,but it was almost steady for the

(53:41):
entire administration and therewere countless politicians.
There were Republicans, therewere Democrats, there were lots
of people that stood up at leastearly on.
Some continued through, but nowwe're seeing nothing.
No one, you know very fewindividuals willing to to engage

(54:03):
directly with the president,very few individuals willing to
engage directly with his cabinet, and I mean, I get it like you
know, he controls all of theseinstitutions that we typically
rely on to protect us asAmericans, and now we can't.

(54:23):
Which is also why I think thatthis, this administration, the
resistance is going to be justaverage guys and gals like me
and you.
It's not going to bepoliticians, it's not going to
be police officers, it's notgoing to be people in positions
of power or authority in thegovernment, it's just going to

(54:45):
be pissed off Americans doingwhat pissed off Americans do
best.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
I couldn't agree more .
I couldn't agree more, andthat's, I think, one reason I
pound home the message that itis us, that this is who it is,
we are who will solve this.
You know the idea that we atone time were able to get on
social media and see what ourleaders were going to do to

(55:14):
correct something in my mind.
Those days are over.
They may still—they obviouslyhave a role, but in terms of the
impetus and the thrust and thedrive behind getting shit done,
if we don't do it, then there'sno drive of sufficiency from

(55:38):
anybody at that highest level.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
I believe that with my heart and soul, yeah, no, I
mean, it's not insurmountable,you know, at the moment.
And the last thing, I guess,like you know, there was a lot
of people, especially theDemocratic operatives, that were
talking about well, we can, youknow, we need to hold fast

(56:03):
until the midterm elections.
Fuck that Right.
I think that in and of itself,pissed off a lot of Americans,
the idea that we would just grinand bear it for two years while
this guy runs roughshod overour Constitution and our Bill of

(56:24):
Rights, right, and also on ourfucking livelihoods.
Yes, you know, because that,like Democratic operatives still
getting his big fat paycheckand Congress is getting their
big fat paycheck, you know.
But you know, meanwhile, like myfucking 401k or my pension or

(56:47):
fucking my Social Security checkor whatever, have been
destroyed and then, or like Ilost my fucking job.
And or like I lost my fuckingjob, I worked for the federal

(57:08):
government for 20 some odd yearsand, fucking, I just get shit
canned in the, you know, by somerich bazillionaire asshole,
which I mean, talk about insult,add an insult to injury.
Some rich asshole, elon Muskand his army of fucking 19 year
old dorks.
Yes, um, and I.
I just, you know, like where Iknow I don't always come across
as like the compassionate,empathetic type, uh, but we,

(57:33):
like, we got to start caringabout our neighbors and, like
you know, we got to start caringabout our neighbors and we got
to start caring about theirquality of life as much as we
care about our own quality oflife.
Yes, agreed, the country's justbecome a place where I don't

(57:56):
even want to fucking be.
Uh, because, like you, I mean Iremember a time in which none
of this shit existed and likepeople could have a fucking
drink together and talk shit toone another about their you know
politics and then pivot theconversation to baseball or
football or fucking fishing oranything else, um, and, without

(58:18):
you know, go go into fuckingblows.
And now it's just like I mean,is this, is this the place we
want to raise our kids?
Is this, you know it?
Just it sucks not.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
we need to start caring about our neighbors.
And I said I absolutely agree,and somebody watching and
listening, based on theencounter I had with my neighbor
, they may think well, jack,pick a.
Which one do you believe?
Look, here's what I believe.
I grew up mostly in the 70s,right, I was born in 66 and grew

(58:54):
up in a small town at a timewhen if somebody in your family
died, everybody brought foodright.
Whether you were tight withthem or not, everybody brought
food, that kind of thing.
And in the 1970s the differencebeing the 1970s had a president
encouraged and initiated aninsurrection nobody in this

(59:20):
community would have, a fewyears later, have plastered
flags and signs and shit intheir yard because they'd have
been thinking about theirneighbor.
Look this guy as a veteran, lookthis guy as a veteran.
To me, when I drive by thatevery day, or when I did drive

(59:43):
by it every day, it's like dude,what a fucking slap in the face
.
Do you not hear him say thethings that he has said about
veterans?
And you know this town is fullof veterans and you're going to
promote this guy again afterthat kind of thing?

(01:00:06):
And look, I understand I'mprobably a little more unhinged
when it comes to expressingmyself than the average person.
But again, I see that if we'rejust quiet about everything like

(01:00:27):
that, I told my wife, I said meseeing him and not saying
something is a silentendorsement of hey, yeah, you
know, a veteran lives two housesup, but you stick this shit in
your yard.
If I don't say something, it'slike ah, that's OK.
Yeah, add a couple more flags.
I don't want to silence, Idon't really endorse that.

(01:00:49):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
I could not possibly agree with you more, possibly
agree with you more, like I mean, I'm not encouraging like
people to get confrontationaland go out and try to, like you
know, get in fistfights witheverybody, right, nor am I.
I think that part of theproblem is, you know, it's the
same.
Look to 1930s Germany, whichhas now passed us in this

(01:01:15):
country.
But you know, you had thisperiod of time in which what's
the famous quote?
Like they came for thesocialists, but I wasn't a
socialist and I didn't do shit.
Then they came for the tradeunionists, but I wasn't a trade
unionist and I didn't do shit.
Then they came for someone thefuck else.
And then finally they came forme, but guess what, nobody was
left, so there was no one tofucking speak up for me.

(01:01:36):
And now I'm sitting in thisfucking, you know El Salvadorian
, fucking shithole prison.
That's it, brother, and that'sthe you know it's like.
I don't think that.
Like I equate MAGA to being ahateful, violent, vile movement,

(01:01:58):
and so why would I want that?
I don't want my kids exposed tothat, I don't want to see it
out on the streets, and so if Ihave an opportunity to engage
with somebody and bring up thefact that, like you said, hey,
listen, this guy is you're likeidle disparages the military,

(01:02:22):
and I'm a member of the militaryand I don't appreciate having
to look at this crap every timeI drive up and down.
Now listen, it's hisprerogative.
He wants to have that dumb shitin his yard Absolutely.
Go right the fuck ahead.
But I think it's important thathe knows how you feel about
that being there and you can doit in a firm but nonviolent

(01:02:45):
manner.
I think that we need more ofthose interactions.
I say it to every single personthat I see that's wearing some
MAGA paraphernalia.
First, I think you look like anidiot, because who the fuck
wears this shit outside of, likethe election cycle If you're
not at you know, a rally?
Why are you wearing MAGA crap?

(01:03:05):
And you're doing it because youwant to intimidate people and
you want to come across as likeyou know that that fucking guy
or that girl or that girlthere's a lot of like layers, to
my mind, to why that you knowwhy that shit has become like
regular garb.
But you know, I tell them likehey, listen, my name is Mike

(01:03:28):
Fanone.
I was a police officer in DCand I went to the Capitol on
January 6th and I almost lost mylife.
And the reason why is becauseDonald Trump lied to America and
he told the Americans that theelection was stolen.
We know it wasn't.
If you don't accept that, Ican't help you, but if you do,
then why the fuck did you votefor this guy?

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Good on you, man.
Fuck yeah, I couldn't agreemore with you, for I can't agree
more with me on that right.
Yeah, you know, and you broughtup a great point Is it his
right to stick all that shit inhis yard?
Hell yes, but as I told my wife, who was like why'd you have to

(01:04:11):
do that, I said, look, it's myfucking right to say something
about the shit in his yard.
So he's utilizing his right,I'm utilizing mine, and for all
the reasons you gave, I justthink that's what needs to
happen.
And again, neither one of usare promoting violence, you know

(01:04:34):
, jumping somebody, jackingtheir jaw, nothing that but we
should be expressing ourauthentic feelings about this.
Where does your life go?
And I, I realize asking anybodythis question is kind of fucked
up because I mean, I don't knowwhat I'm going to be doing a

(01:04:55):
year from now, two years fromnow, but just when you kind of
roughly run it through your head, where's life maybe going for
you in terms of where you go,what you do, that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
I don't know, I got like really, really engaged, you
know, with trying to preventTrump from becoming president in
the lead up to, I mean reallyin the like four years that
Biden was president all the wayto the lead up to you know, the

(01:05:35):
last election and then when welost, I kind of just was like,
all right, well, I'm going tofocus on what comes next.
And the shitty thing was thatfor the past four years I've
been applying to jobs andlooking for opportunities and

(01:05:58):
nobody would hire me.
They just didn't want to dealwith, you know, this polarizing
figure, that the way theydescribed me, and they had
concerns, especially leading upto the you know Trump to the
inauguration and I guess youknow Trump to the inauguration

(01:06:19):
and I guess, you know, honestly,I can't blame them.
It sucks and it's shitty.
And I still think that, youknow, these people are fucking
cowardly.
I deserve to earn a living,just like everybody else.
I've never committed a crime.
I'm, you know, a good guy, I'vegot some good skill sets.

(01:06:41):
But you look at the way thatDonald Trump is pursuing each
and every one of his perceivedyou know detractors or you know,
in his mind, the enemies list,and it is long and distinguished
, but he is.
You know he's going after lawfirms any law firm that offered

(01:07:03):
legal assistance to anyone youknow that that may have pursued
accountability for his numerouscrimes.
And so you know, a lot of thesecompanies that I tried to get a
job with were like we fear thatwould happen.
And lo and behold, you know, alot of these companies that I
tried to get a job with werelike we feared that would happen
.
And lo and behold, you knowit's happened.
And so I guess the short answeris I don't know, man, because I

(01:07:27):
can't.
I seem to be stuck in this space, and it's not that I don't
believe in it, and it's not thatI don't want to do it, but like
I don't.
I mean, the reality is like Iresigned from the police
department.
Um, you know, I don't collect apension, I don't have health

(01:07:48):
insurance.
Uh, I have four children.
Uh, I have bills to pay, and,um, and I don't have a
retirement, and I'm now 44 yearsold, kind of starting from
scratch.
And so you know, I don't knowwhat comes next.
All I can do is like focus onfighting the fight and hoping

(01:08:11):
that, you know, eventually we'regoing to right this ship and
things will go back to um, notgo back to normal.
They'll get better, yeah,better than they ever were.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
I believe.
I believe that for you.
Has anybody approached you witha movie deal, something like
that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
Yeah, it's um've I'm involved with uh, I'm doing
something with sean penn um niceand so you know, hopefully, uh,
hopefully you know, thereyou'll have something to um, you
know, eat popcorn and drinkbeer to uh in the in the near

(01:08:56):
future.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Hell, yes, yes, and that's that's when I said I
think I realized the positionthat you are in now and the
thoughts that you're havingabout things, but I just can't.
Here's, here's where I thinkyou kind of sealed that up,
brother, is when you said fuckit, I'm, I'm going to testify,

(01:09:24):
right.
Um, there's, there's something.
I know that I was talkingbefore we went on air about that
Rolling Stone article.
Michael Fanone is not your heroand it's a great article, by
the way.
Uh, for anybody who might wantto find that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
All the photo shoots I've ever done.
That was the best photo shoot,I think, or the most fun that I
ever had.
Oh, I'll give you guys a teaser.
So, like the writer, alex, shewas great, I had a ton of fun
hanging out with her.

(01:10:00):
But she asked me at the end ofthe interview.
She's like do you have anysuggestions for the photo shoot?
And I was like, yes, I do, Iwould like to bring a lawn chair
to the west front of theCapitol and sit there and
fucking drink beer with my dog.
And she's like you know,perfect with my dog.

(01:10:23):
And, um, you know perfect.
She said um, you know, I'llsuggest it, but I'm just letting
you know.
Like they never say yes, theyalways come back with something
else.
And like she's like we hadthese celebrities and all the
time they come up with thesedifferent, you know different,
uh ideas and they we always sayno and lo and behold back.
They're like that's the bestidea ever.
And so there I am.
I had to get permission.
At the time it was SpeakerPelosi, now Speaker Emeritus

(01:10:45):
Pelosi.
So I called up Pelosi and Isaid hey, listen, is it cool if
I do a photo shoot on the westfront of the Capitol and she
said oh, yeah, yeah, of course.
And so we go out there and weshoot the photo shoot and then
later on in the day I get aphone call and she's like
michael, were you out theredrinking beer all day long on
the west front of the cabin?

(01:11:05):
She's like those weren't realbeers, were they?
And I was like fucking perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
No, dude, that's what .
That's what pulled me in tothat article.
Uh, I that picture, you knowit's right at the top, under
underneath rolling stone, andI'm like I don't.
Whatever follows beneath thishas got to be some good shit,
because he's, you know, kickbackin his Crocs drinking beer on

(01:11:40):
the Capitol.

Speaker 2 (01:11:42):
I mean I did some other articles I liked, like the
time article was good, but Ijust like Like I'm a deeply,
deeply flawed human being, as amI, and that's that's kind of
like.
What, at least like part of themessaging, is like I don't want
to be referred to as a hero,but I'm also like, and I tell

(01:12:02):
people all the time you're ahero.
I'm like, well, if you knew me,you'd probably say you're an
asshole, not a hero.
But I just, you know, it's likeI guess I rejected that label
and I mean I appreciate peoplethat label and um, and I, I mean
I appreciate people that, uh,are inspired by what I did in
that moment.

(01:12:23):
Um, but my life is much lessinspirational, but I think
that's, that's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
um, you know, like I think it makes it even more
interesting to be honest.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
You know what I mean, that I want to drink beer with
that guy on the cover of timemagazine.
That's like looking off intothe you know, out there and like
in his uniform and the, I don'twant to drink a beer with that
dude, don't drink beer.
Crocs and, uh, you know t-shirt, sitting on the capitol
basically giving the biggestfuck you to everyone in that

(01:12:58):
building that he possibly could.
You know that's.
That's the guy I want to hangout with.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
That's it.
That is it.
And you know there's justsomething about.
You addressed it earlier whenyou said man, this country needs
right now more than anything,authenticity.
And to that point where, ifsomebody might counter argue, uh

(01:13:25):
, something about, uh, maga andtheir authenticity?
There's not a fucking thingauthentic about maga.
That is a charade of bullshit.
Exactly, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:13:36):
And I laugh all the time, like because I talked.
You know like I live out in therural part of Virginia.
Like there's a lot of Trumpsupporters out here and I talk
to people and it's like, whatabout?
Trump is authentic, like whatit looks like a fucking WWE

(01:13:58):
event, that's exactly whatyou've got cabinet full of like
characters.
Uh, you know that all of themare, are like.
I mean, they're like cartoonishum and and trump is the.
You know that the ringleader orthe, the ringmaster of like the
weirdest back-ass circus thatI've ever seen in my life.

(01:14:19):
You nailed it Genuine love ofcountry.
There's no genuine appreciationfor Americans or what Americans
do on a daily basis.
There's no, he couldn't.
He has nothing but disdain forworking classclass people.
They're the scum of the earth,exactly, and it's so apparent in

(01:14:44):
everything that he does.
And I don't get it.
I don't get how my buddy thatworks as a mechanic down the
road for me is like this superMAGA enthusiast, but like we
drink beer sometimes, and he'slike I hate golf, I hate these
assholes that go to palm springsand I I hate this.

(01:15:04):
Well, uh, and I'm like that'sall that motherfucker does
exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
You're paying for it, you idiot.
Absolute, absolutely, man.
You know here's.
Here's the thing that I realizeabout donald trump.
There's never a day in his lifewhere that prick gets up and
puts on a t-shirt, uh, throws ona any hat other than that dumb

(01:15:34):
fucking red hat that Elon setsup on his head like super truck
driver with a hat that's toosmall.
There's no like today.
I'm just going to kick back,throw on a t-shirt, pair of
shorts.
His mind is so tied into thatimage he has of himself as this

(01:15:58):
all-powerful businessman that Iwould say when he takes a shower
it kind of freaks him out alittle bit because he doesn't
have his cape on right, his redtie and his suit and he's like,
for just that minute he feelsvulnerable and I can think of

(01:16:18):
other reasons why he doesn'tlike to take his clothes off
first jack.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
On behalf of me and the rest of the audience, fuck
you for putting that image intoall.

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
Yes, you know what I should have?
I should be fucking scolded forthat.
I should be.
Yeah, I've got to admit it kindof made me a little nauseous
after it fell out of my mouth,but I couldn't reel it back in.
Yeah, no, there's no, and Ithink where we see this, maybe

(01:16:53):
it's just the one that gets themost attention.
Look, name one other presidentin history that hasn't been able
to come across as authentic intheir feelings about our
veterans and our troops.
I can't think of one in mylifetime.

Speaker 2 (01:17:17):
That's like that's almost a prerequisite of being
president of the United States,that you back the troops and our
veterans there near the top ofthe pecking order memoir
contains some you know chapteron some decision that they had

(01:17:40):
to make in which they put, youknow, american servicemen in
harm's way, and, like, what adifficult decision that was and
how, like the loss of Americansoldiers haunts them to this day
, literally almost withoutexception, that I know within my
lifetime.

(01:18:01):
And like Trump jests or maybenot about sending American
service members to secure Gazaso that, you know, maybe he can
develop it and turn it into likea resort.
And it's just like, even if itwas a fucking joke, it just

(01:18:25):
shows such a lack of respect for, like, that level of sacrifice
and that level of commitment to,you know, to a cause.
And you know what, I knowdozens of soldiers that, despite
the stupidity of that fuckingyou know directive, would obey

(01:18:49):
it because they fucking lovethis country so much and are so
committed to you know americaand an american interest and
doing their fucking job inservice of those things, right,
um, and it's like how can youtake that for granted?

Speaker 1 (01:19:11):
it's unthinkable to to me, somebody like you I think
to most Americans Is there aparticular member of Congress
and the GOP?
Throughout all of theexperiences you've had and the
interactions you've had, and theshit that you've seen or heard
spoken on television from thesepeople is is?

(01:19:34):
Is there two or three thatstick in your crawl the most in
terms of their MAGA bullshit andtheir personality and their
stance?
Who, who?
Who pisses you off the most?

Speaker 2 (01:19:56):
I'd have to say, of all of them, it's got to be
Andrew Clyde from Georgia.
If you remember, this is theguy that kind of really started
the whitewashing of January 6th.

(01:20:17):
You know, kind of reallystarted the whitewashing of
January 6th.
He testified that, you know,january 6th or at least he said
in a committee hearing thatJanuary 6th, if you watch the
footage, appeared to be justanother normal tourist day at
the Capitol.
And I tell you like why thatwas so significant, at least in
my life, is because up untilthen I had done some media

(01:20:39):
appearances that all had beensanctioned by the police
department and it was reallyjust about recounting my own
experience and the things that Iwitnessed that day.
This was the first time that Idecided to act on my own and I
downloaded my body-worn camerafootage which is a big policy

(01:21:02):
violation within the policedepartment, and I sent it to CNN
, to Don Lemon, and I asked himto air it, you know, unedited,
which you know is a huge ask ifyou're familiar with the you
know legacy cable news industry.

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
Anything that's more than a minute and 30 seconds.
It's like asking them to sendyou to Mars.

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:21:30):
And so I just figured like I didn't even want to go
on the show, figured like Ididn't even want to go on the
show.
I just wanted him to air thefootage because I saw that as
the biggest rebuke to thisinsane description of January
6th, which you know, by the way.
I had dozens of police officerswho were there that day, who
were injured, still out onmedical leave, like I was

(01:21:52):
calling me up, distraught overthe fact that this ass clown
would characterize ormischaracterize their experience
in such a callous way.
And this is a guy that was inthe military, by the way.
I don't know what the fuck hedid.
I would imagine that he was notan enlisted person.
But really, this is.

(01:22:13):
You know, this is what, this iswhat we've come to.
And so they did it.
They aired it.
I think it was.
You know the segment they airedwas about 20 plus minutes,
unedited.
Wow.
And you know it was.
It was the first time I everwatched my own body worn camera

(01:22:34):
footage and cried like up untilthen I it was.
It was kind of it was likewatching somebody else get their
ass kicked right.
Um, and then the next day Iwent on the show and and I
talked about, you know, myexperience and that's kind of
like.
I hoped to return to being acop, but I kind of realized that

(01:22:55):
, um, that that was, you know,that was the end of the road and
, and despite, you know, my goalhad always been a return to
full duty, which I did, Um, butit was apparent that I could not
be a cop and also advocate forthe truth, Um, and so, you know,
I ended up, uh, choosing thelatter.

Speaker 1 (01:23:15):
Yeah, and boy have you done so since.
Let me let me ask you aboutyour traumatic brain injury.
I experienced a TBI in 1996.
And they didn't when they, whenthey called my, I was in the
Navy.
When they called my parents,they weren't sure I was going to

(01:23:39):
live, but obviously I did.
I've dealt with the residualsof that ever since and I'm not
going to go into all of mine orany of mine.
This is.
I want to talk about you, butdo you deal with ongoing
residuals of your traumaticbrain injury?

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
Oh, absolutely Well.
First, you know, one of thethings that I kind of realized
during the writing process formy book was that this was
actually the seventh traumaticbrain injury that I had suffered
as a police officer in DC.
You know, one of the thingsthat we had done was we went

(01:24:20):
through my medical records and,you know, my co writer, john
Schiffman, was like Did you knowthat you've actually had seven
TB eyes over the past 20 years?
And I did not, and I reallydidn't notice the symptoms until
I started undergoing likespeech therapy, which is kind of

(01:24:44):
like misleading, like I didn'tneed to learn, relearn how to
talk.
It was more about like cognitiveissues that I was dealing with,
you know, in the aftermath ofthis latest tbi, and one of the
things that I had a huge problemwith and I still do to this day
, uh, short-term memory, yes,and um word search, yes.

(01:25:09):
Like there are times where Iwill be in a conversation and
you know I want a glass of waterand I, I the word water escapes
me, and it ends up being like,hey, can I want a glass of water
?
And the word water escapes meand it ends up being like can I
get a glass of that clear, coolstuff that sustains life.
You know, I can come up withall that, but I can't to save my
life.
Think of the word water.

(01:25:29):
And then the short-term memorystuff is also like I had.
I never had any, any memoryissues.
And then, um, you know, Istarted like I could be in a
conversation and and forget howI you know how the conversation
started or what the hell youknow I was talking about.

(01:25:52):
And and then, um, you know,things that I did this morning
are are less clear than thingsthat happened to me six years
ago.
Yes, and so it was through thetherapy that I started to
realize that.
You know, these are actualsymptoms of this.
And it's not just that.
Like you know, I'm a fuckingforgetful asshole that you know,

(01:26:14):
my ex-wife accused me of beingfor years.

Speaker 1 (01:26:17):
Um, right, yeah, right now, because, like I, I do

(01:26:48):
, like I'll I to and to behonest with you, it's not that I
forgot, it's just that Idecided something else was
higher priority, right, and Ijust didn't do it.
But when she says somethingabout it, I'll look at her with
this kind of like twinkle in myeye and I'll say, babe, look,

(01:27:09):
I'm a disabled veteran.
And she's like get the fuck outof here with that shit.
You just didn't do it.
Do you ever walk into a roomthis is one that I've stood
there and had tears roll down myface before over this.

(01:27:33):
I'll walk into a room with whatI know were intentions of doing
something and I'll get in thereand stand there like an idiot,
having no idea what I know.
I came in there to do something.
I just can't tell you what itwas, and most of the time I'm
just like fuck it, I'll go on.
It'll come to me later.
But there've been a couple oftimes where, um, I guess I'm

(01:27:54):
just so shit full of that that,um, man, maybe it's just a weak
moment, but I'll just standthere tears rolling down my face
, like I'm so fucking tired ofthis why.
You know what I mean.
You kick your own ass.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
Two or three times a day, I'd say at least.
Um, yeah, no, it's uh.
I mean I like I live by myselfand uh, I've got a pretty like
isolated like lifestyle.
I kind of like do my own thingand then three o'clock I turn

(01:28:31):
into soccer, dad, and it's likegoing to get my kids and, and
you know so, like it doesn'treally affect me, but yeah, I
mean there's times where, um,where that happens and you know
like it's, it's just like I mean, anytime I experience the
symptoms there are, there aremoments where I'm like so

(01:28:56):
exhausted with dealing with thatthat I become emotional.

Speaker 1 (01:29:02):
Yeah, and do you also experience, then does anger
kick in when you tie it back towhy you're experiencing that?

Speaker 2 (01:29:14):
You know it does not for me and I I have to um, I
have to attribute that to likethe therapy that I was getting,
awesome um, immediately after,like it was so intensive, I and
I had a lot of like my, my maintherapist had had done a
significant amount of time atWalter Reed and I attribute a

(01:29:38):
lot to that.
And then also, you know one ofmy really good friends who was,
uh, you know, a range ofregiment guy, third battalion.
He got me involved in somegroups with uh, with other
veterans that had similar uhexperiences, and so you, similar
types of injuries, similartypes of symptoms, and so it was

(01:30:01):
cool, like because you know wewere all guys that would, you
know, talk shit about oneanother and you know, could make
fun of it and use humor as a,you know, as a defense mechanism
.
But also, you know you get thatlike a defense mechanism.
But also, you know you get thatlike there's just something

(01:30:22):
that allows for I mean that, whyis this?
You know, why is this podcastgoing so well right now?
We've never fucking met eachother, I've never even had a
conversation with you beforehand, but there's kind of that
shared understanding in um, oh,I agree, service and sacrifice
and the willingness to do both.
That allows for me to, you know, feel more comfortable and, you

(01:30:44):
know, be not honest but be, youknow, more willing to, you know
, kind of get into those nooksand crannies that I might not
normally do with, just some JoeBlow off the street.

Speaker 1 (01:31:00):
I know exactly what you mean and I want to say this
too you are a veteran.
In my mind, everything aboutyou.
You are a veteran of the UnitedStates, going back to your
narcotic work right Right up toJanuary 6th.

(01:31:24):
If that's not veteran shit, Idon't know what is.
So when I see the flag on thewall behind you and it's so
appropriate to me to see you andthat flag at the same time,
because of the symbolism of whata veteran is and the kind of

(01:31:44):
acts that they engage in andfears that they experience, but
have to go on and do somethinganyway, that's inseparable.
Michael Fanone is a UnitedStates veteran.
So I want you to know, and I'vetalked to veteran friends of
mine who we've had this veryconversation about you and they

(01:32:07):
can't agree more.
Jack, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:32:10):
Well, that means a lot, and I can't tell you how
much I appreciate that, you know.
As for the flag man, it's likeI love this country and this
country is not Donald Trump.
You know, donald Trump is just,you know, the current leader

(01:32:32):
and you know, listen, like, ifthere's one thing that every
American can unite behind, it'sthat we've all worked for an
asshole boss, and so, like,right now we just have this
asshole boss, and so, you know,we got to stay strong and and

(01:32:54):
oust this movement that he'scome to represent and just get
back to being being Americansthat's about as simple as as
anyone can put it.

Speaker 1 (01:33:08):
You know, in terms of where we need to go, we don't
need some.
You know 300, 300-pagedissertation on it.
It really comes down to that.
I think it really does.
I want to ask you you mentionedsomething about.
You said you know I'm a flawedhuman being and I said so am I?
And man, I am right, right, asI think many people are.

(01:33:43):
Some just do a better job ofhiding it or concealing it or
just refuse to admit it.
I've come to embrace mine,right, rather than I fought with
a lot of my flaws for decadesuntil I finally realized you
know what applied to the rightthing and behind the right cause
.
My flaws are actually strengths, and I get that about you.

(01:34:06):
Even though you've notnecessarily identified any of
those flaws, I think you haveprobably as the decades have
unfolded, you have probably, asthe decades have unfolded, those
flaws are your very strengths.
Am I on with that?

Speaker 2 (01:34:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you know it's likewhat's the first step to
recovery is admitting you have aproblem, like if you can
recognize some of these thingseven though, like you know, some
of them I'll probably neverchange but, you know, just

(01:34:59):
recognizing it and being mindful, especially when it comes to
you know relationships withother people and interacting
with others.
I mean that's where I like, Ifeel that you know understanding
those flaws and recognizing it,and then you know being
cognizant of it and doing thingsto, you know, rectify it.
And I'm not always, you know,on point, but yeah, I try to be
and yeah, I think it makes allof us better people.
Well, that's what makes you Itry to be and uh, yeah, I think
it makes makes all of us betterpeople.

Speaker 1 (01:35:18):
Well, that's what makes you so interesting to me,
um, in a different way.
I mean, god's sake, harry Dunnis interesting to me, but you're
interesting to me in a in adifferent way, in that when you
show up in front of the cameraor when you just when you show
up anywhere, like your, uh,fairly recent engagement with

(01:35:41):
that little dipshit, enriqueTerrio, right, um, in those
moments, um, you reveal so manytextures about you that I think
to to use a metaphor, if we'retalking stucco work or drywall
work, I think a lot of people inlife go to great lengths to

(01:36:03):
make sure they use that troweland smooth that shit over, right
, so that it mirrors perfectionas close as can be.
And what appeals to me aboutyou is you throw some shit on
the wall and kind of run it overand it's like, okay, it's doing
what it's supposed to do and aperfect example for that.

(01:36:26):
That is a part of my past too.
So I laughed my ass off when Iread it.
There was a statement about yes, michael Fanone uses lawn
chairs as real furniture, orwhatever the quote was in that
book.
And I'm like when my wife met me, look, all I can explain is

(01:36:49):
I've always been a guy who'sabout function, not aesthetics,
right?
I don't give a shit how itlooks.
I need a place to put my assdown and and be able to to rest
my legs.
Uh, if it's a stiff enoughcardboard box, that'll be fine.
I just need it against a wallso I can lean back.

(01:37:09):
And and I've I've always gottenthat from you, that uh, that
from you, that uh, I guess, tosummarize it, say he doesn't
give a fuck, right, about thebullshit that a lot of people
give a fuck about, and Iresonated with that, um, and I

(01:37:30):
think that's something somebodywould would probably my wife
being one of them call one of myflaws.
But I'm asking this question ofyou.
It's helped me process all thebullshit in life because I don't

(01:37:50):
immerse myself in the shit.
That just doesn't matter, right?
I'm not going to get caught upin what you think of my fucking
chair.
I'm gonna sit down and if it'sgood for me, you can like it or
not like it, fuck it, but I likeit.
Is that you?

Speaker 2 (01:38:09):
no 100.
Yeah, I just you know I'mcomfortable with who I am and
like I don't give a fuck.
Yeah, yeah, I'll take criticismand critique on the way I
interact with people, right.
Oh sure, sure, but it comes to,like you know, like you said,
the aesthetics or even indealing with people in the pop

(01:38:31):
and circumstance, like I've justnever been one to give a shit.
Like I've just never been oneto give a shit.
It's funny we were talkingearlier about Joe Biden and I
happened to be with the formerpresident at some event you know
fancy schmancy event where Ihad to wear adult clothes and I

(01:38:57):
was there with Sean Penn and Isaid something like off the wall
shit, and Sean was like Ifucking can't believe.
You said that crazy shit to thepresident of the United States.
I'm like, no, it's like he's aguy and and he laughed, you know
, he's funny.
And it's like you know what, Idon't know man, maybe maybe old.
You know, uncle Joe, just inthat moment, needed somebody to

(01:39:19):
talk to him, like he wasn't thefucking, uh, you know, oh, the
most powerful person on on thefucking, uh, face of the earth.
Uh, you know, it's just like.
I don't know.
I, I, um, I'm not, I'm nevertrying to be disrespectful, but
I don't know.
No, no, you care if, uh, youknow, the queen of England or or

(01:39:39):
, fucking, uh, you know, thelady that, fucking you know, has
to clean my toilets.
Um, everybody deserves, youknow, respect and and uh, and I
can fucking get along with withanybody, yeah, except for Trump.

Speaker 1 (01:39:55):
Fuck that dude, right yeah, and that's part of that
authenticity that you weretalking about earlier, that man
when we can peel back.
Look, president Biden, I'vealways had a sense that behind

(01:40:15):
the scenes that's kind of who hewas right.
That, like you said, somebodyyou could enjoy having a beer
with, and that's always how hecame across to me, right?
I bet I could rattle off someold hardcore Navy jokes and he'd
laugh and he'd probably matchme with some jokes of his own

(01:40:39):
and he'd laugh and he'd probablymatch me with some jokes of his
own.
And to be able to, how do wemove that?
Or do we?
How do we get leaders andpoliticians to bring that from,
like those one-on-one situationsthat you guys had, where you
know the cameras aren't aroundand all that kind of thing, and
bring that out on a nationalstage?

(01:41:01):
Now, before you answer, I willpreface this by saying look, I
realize Trump already has in asense, but Trump has done it in
a way to connect with America'sworst, right yeah, as you and I
both know, you can bring thatsame thing out and connect with

(01:41:24):
good people.
It's intention, right?
So how do we get leaders tostart doing that?
I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:41:33):
I think that we think we need to.
I mean, obviously we have a twoparty system in this country and
I don't agree with it.
I think we should have moreparties in this country because
I see that as one of a very bigcontributing factor into, like,

(01:41:54):
how divisive things have gotten.
You know, you've got two sidesand it's it's an us against them
situation for a lot ofAmericans.
That being said, I mean, likethe DNC needs to go out and when
they're recruiting people,recruiting candidates, like,
rather than like findingsomebody that is like an Ivy

(01:42:17):
League educated individual thatmight have some loose tie to
some congressional district thatthey want to put this person
out there, like why don't you gointo that district and find
somebody that speaks thelanguage, so to speak, that
understands you, know that areaand the people that live there
and prop that person up.

(01:42:39):
Give that individual a platform, because then the authenticity
just comes natural.
I mean, there's really no otherway to get it.
If you want to get workingclass people engaged in the
Democratic Party, you've got touse working class people to
engage with them.

Speaker 1 (01:42:59):
Because I just don't.

Speaker 2 (01:43:00):
I don't have, there's nothing in me that I'm not
going to be inspired by.
Like you know, I'm not going torattle off names, but I'm a
high school dropout.
You know, my first job washanging drywall and working
concrete, construction, concreteforms, like then I became a cop
.
I don't.

(01:43:20):
I'm just not going to beinspired by somebody who doesn't
have a similar backstory andI'm not going to feel as though
I'm heard and I mean listen,like a lot of the tendency is
for those kind of people is tokind of look down their nose at

(01:43:41):
people like you and I.
You got it, man, and so andthat's.
You know, like one interactionlike that that goes public, you
know, is going to go viral.
One interaction like that thatgoes public, you know, is going
to go viral.
It's going to turn off hugeswaths of Americans.

(01:44:01):
I mean not to say, like you know, I'm not hating on people for,
like, getting an education andlike yes there are people out
there that, can, you know, climbthe rungs of the social ladder
and still stay true to theirroots.
But I think it's just fine timethat people are represented by
people like them that come fromtheir world, and I think that's

(01:44:25):
what would resonate.
It's certainly what wouldresonate with me.

Speaker 1 (01:44:28):
Oh, absolutely.
And I think if we liftedanything out of what you've just
said, it's that for so longwe've not been represented by
people like us.
Right, you know, we're just not.
And you, I think a problem ontheir end is that you can't fake

(01:44:52):
understanding the people yourepresent.
They can't effectively fakeresonating with you and I.
They have no fucking idea howthings work on this end, how our
lives are really lived, theconversations, the language.

(01:45:16):
They don't get that.
So to the extent that somebodygoes out of their way to try to
make us think they get it, itbecomes obvious.
They have no fucking clue.
As you said and this isbrilliant, if you are somebody

(01:45:39):
from this way of life you and Iknow and identify with you.
Can't not bring that with you.
It's who you are.
So, in terms of if you're agood human being and you have
that ground level authenticity,no matter what else you do,

(01:46:03):
you're going to bring thatground level authenticity with
you.
And I'll tell you somebody whohe's no longer in politics, but
he comes to mind when I talkabout that and that's Denver
Riggleman.
Have you met Denver?

Speaker 2 (01:46:18):
Yeah, I've met Denver Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:46:20):
Yeah, denver is man.
I like Denver Riggleman andhe's a guy that kind of grew up
in the you know that backwoodskind of way of life, who, even
though he's held some prettyhigh-ranking positions, man, he

(01:46:43):
can't shake that authenticityright.
There's no way you can polishhim up so much that he no longer
connects with you right.
He's just Denver and you feelit.
You feel it, and I think thisis what pisses me off.
People like that are notembraced by the people who

(01:47:09):
aren't like that when they getto Washington.

Speaker 2 (01:47:13):
Yeah, I think that's probably.
The whole system is just kind oflike set up, you know, to deny
people like that the opportunity.
I mean, first of all, like itcosts a lot of money to run an
election, especially at thenational level.
Things are these days you knowyou could be running some podunk

(01:47:36):
seat in Bufu, wherever, andthen all of a sudden, if the
math, you know, necessitatesthat the other party win that
seat, you're going to seemillions of dollars dumped into
your opponent's coffers just towin, and it's just.
You know there's like a lot ofthings that need to be corrected

(01:47:59):
to make sure that, you know, wereally do have adequate
representation.
The shitty thing is like we'vegot to win first and then we've
got to hope, and that's reallyall we can do is hope that the
people that are in power youknow that my worst nightmare is
that, like the Democrats win andthen they just use, you know,

(01:48:23):
whatever mandate is given tothem.
You know to kind of like doexactly what Trump is doing,
which is only be the presidentfor the 50 percent of the
country or 51 percent of thecountry that voted for that
Right and not, you know, takethe opportunity to see all of

(01:48:46):
the loopholes and all of theweaknesses that Trump has
exploited and brought to thesurface that we have in our
democracy, and fix those.

Speaker 1 (01:48:58):
I couldn't agree more .

Speaker 2 (01:49:00):
That is rule number one for politician is is should
be at least you're not afraid tolose your job.
Yeah, I mean, if you want totake like an oath of allegiance,
it should be an allegiance tothat principle that you are not
afraid to lose your job.

Speaker 1 (01:49:22):
Yeah, no, what a horrifying scenario.
And while I know, because ofjust that desire for vengeance
on the surface, republicansregaining power and coming back
and saying, all right, now,assholes, you know, and

(01:49:44):
approaching it like Trump did,it might appeal on the surface
level, but, as you say, when youdrop down beneath the surface,
it becomes a horrifying scenariothat just magnifies everything
we're talking about now thatwe'd like to move on from.
If we can't get back to, theConstitution is there for every

(01:50:10):
American citizen and that thepresident of the United States
is there to look after, to use aphrase, every citizen of the
United States.
If we can't get back to that,we can never exit this loop.
It'll just be one okay, nowthis side's got power and

(01:50:31):
they're shitting all over theother side.
Well, now they've got power andthey're shitting all over us
again.
We'll never exit that, and Ithink that's a great point
because it doesn't.
When you brought that up, Ithought man, who else have I
heard talk about that lately?
Well, I haven't.
Again, we're caught in thatcycle of I'm pissed off.

(01:50:52):
So, yeah, if we gain power,punish those assholes.
I get it.
I get it.
Believe me I.

Speaker 2 (01:51:00):
There's part of me that I yeah, I think there needs
to be accountability.
Yes, oh for sure, I need somelegislation and things need to
be done.
I mean, listen, we had onehundred and forty seven members
of Congress, republican membersof Congress, vote against
certifying the 2020 election.
And no, I have not forgotten,nor will I ever, because in my

(01:51:23):
mind, they are just as guilty ofthe violence of that day as any
of the individuals thatassaulted me, because they did
that without a single shred ofevidence.
If there's one thing that Ilearned from sitting through all
those select committee meetingsand I say this to people all
the time you know, if you hadasked me on January 7th, was

(01:51:44):
Donald Trump morally andethically responsible for
January 6th?
I would have said, of course heis.
If you had asked me if he wascriminally culpable, I would
have said well, I don't knowthose committee hearings.
And if you haven't read thereport I know it's long, but you

(01:52:04):
can get a CliffsNotes versionor just watch some of the
episodes Trump's ownadministration that testified
under oath that there was noevidence whatsoever that that
election had been rigged or wasstolen or that there were any

(01:52:26):
improprieties that would haveaffected the outcome of the
election these 147 members ofCongress did was voted not to
certify, lending the authorityof their office and the
credibility of their positionsas members of Congress to this

(01:52:47):
notion that the election wasstolen, therefore inspiring
Americans to vote to attack theCapitol because they think, holy
shit, the Democrats are tryingto steal the election from us.
They have, they've stolen theelection and, to me, there has

(01:53:09):
to be accountability.
We may have surpassed any typeof criminal accountability, but
I certainly think that thereneeds to be legislation to
change this idea that you haveto be criminally convicted of
insurrection to be, you know,prevented from holding office in

(01:53:29):
the country.
Like, we all saw what happenedthat day.
Their votes are, you know, setin stone for the rest of
eternity.
If you voted that way, you'rean insurrectionist.
You should never hold office inthis country, ever again.
And that goes with all of theenablers.
You know the individuals thatpush the lies, inspiring

(01:53:49):
Americans.
And hey, listen, like, ifyou're, if you're one of those
people that believes the lies,or believe the lies at the time,
and still you're a Trumpsupporter, you know, think about
all the Trump supporters, livesthat he destroyed.
Think about all the people thatwent to the Capitol that day,
outraged and enraged.
They, you know, eithercommitted acts of violence or

(01:54:10):
just broke the law and then hadtheir entire lives turned upside
down, because the guy that'ssupposed to be fighting for them
is really just fighting forhimself.
And, like you said earlier, uh,jack, he doesn't do the
fighting himself, he gets otherpeople to do it for him.

Speaker 1 (01:54:29):
That's it Calls in his goons.
Yep, are you familiar with umPam Hempel?
Uh, she, they call her the MAGAgranny.
She's a trip man.
I had her on I don't know a fewweeks back and her story was she
was there that day.
She was charged withtrespassing.

(01:54:55):
She got out and when Trumpissued the pardons, she was
included and she was like Idon't want a pardon.
I was there.
It was wrong.
Seeing what it turned into, Ido not support it.
I think the people whocommitted crimes should be

(01:55:16):
charged.
And she had a hell of a time andshe wanted to deny her pardon
and she had initially somecontact with the Trump
administration and they were notat all eager to, you know, pull
back her pardon.
But she finally I think she'sout in Idaho.

(01:55:36):
She finally found a senator whohelped her get that through.
But it was so obvious to me thereason Trump didn't want that
coming back to them, you know,and say, ok, well, you're not
pardoned now Because she's anexample of accountability, a
human being that says I fuckedup, right, you got me, and she

(01:56:01):
did her time.
And they were wanting to pullher off probation and she told
her probation officer I don'twant off probation.
I want to serve out everythingthat was handed to me to me.
That's the kind of thing thatit took in my mind any

(01:56:21):
responsible human beingrealizing because I think you
would agree and maybe not, but Ithink you would agree that yeah
, there were some people thatjust kind of showed up and were
just like let's hold some signsand let's you know, let's say

(01:56:42):
you stole the election and allthat shit.
But then who then got swept upin all of the bullshit and the
energy and and then foundthemselves amongst, uh, some
real radicals and and pan.
I mean she.
I think she was close to Mid70s at least right mid 70s she

(01:57:07):
was.
She was there to hold a sign.
And when you look at like shetold me I can.
I can never vote again.
I can't vote again because mydumb ass went there not
understanding what it was allabout, but I was guilty.
That's what he's done to people.

(01:57:29):
That's what he's done to peoplebut sadly, as you've pointed
out, there are people who wereheld accountable but then had
that wiped away.
Yeah, and I'm a.
I mean, a pardon is a pardon.
So I'm assuming those peoplewho had been convicted of

(01:57:49):
felonies I I would assume theycan vote again.
Is that your understanding?

Speaker 2 (01:57:54):
They can own guns, they can do all the things, yeah
, and you know you touched onsomething there you were talking
about.
You know these people that andI talked about it earlier to my
kind of personal thoughts on,like the idea that you know a
lot of these people that werethere that day were arrested for
trespassing, charged withtrespassing and convicted, were

(01:58:18):
arrested for trespassing,charged with trespassing and
convicted, and that maybe theyjust got caught up in the moment
and the mob mentality, andthese are all things that I
understand, and I do believethat it's a worthwhile question
asking whether or not thefederal government should have

(01:58:39):
used the resources to pursuethose prosecutions, as opposed
to focusing solely on, you know,the violent felonies violent,
you know, property destruction,you know felony property
destruction maybe spending someof that time pursuing those that
orchestrated the event, likeTrump, in the immediate

(01:59:01):
aftermath of January 6th, ratherthan waiting fucking two and a
half years.
That being said, I think it'sreally important for people to
look at the event now, january6th, in the totality of that,
and why.
I believe that thoseindividuals deserved the
punishment they got, even if itwas just for trespassing.

(01:59:24):
This rally started off at theEllipse, which, if you've never
been to Washington DC.
The Ellipse is the big openspace just south of the White
House and it's located between16th and 17th Street on
Pennsylvania Avenue I'm sorry,on Constitution Avenue.
The Capitol building is all theway down off 3rd Street on

(01:59:51):
Constitution Avenue.
So when Trump said let's go tothe Capitol, these people walked
what?
13 blocks, 13 city blocks.
All that time you know beingable to think about what it is
that they're doing, think abouttheir actions, what they might

(02:00:11):
do when they get to the Capitolbuilding.
And despite having all thistime, you know it wasn't like
something that just happened.
And next thing, you knowthere's, like you know, people
fighting cops and 13 city blocksthat they walked.
They got to the Capitol, theywatched a group of individuals

(02:00:32):
violently beat police officersand still they continued.
In past the police barricades,there was violence happening all
around.
Yes, it is 100 percent truethat not every single person
there that day engaged in sometype of violent confrontation
with law enforcement, but Ichallenge anyone to tell me

(02:00:53):
truthfully that they had no ideathat cops were getting beaten.
I can believe that for onesecond Right.

Speaker 1 (02:01:02):
Just from when you watch the footage right and you
look into the periphery.
I couldn't agree more.
It's just not even believableto me that you could be there
and not see some stuff that'sgoing on that tells you, wow,

(02:01:25):
this shit has just crossed aline.
This is crazy.
I can't imagine how you couldright.
So I would agree with you thatanybody using that as part of
their explanation is probablynot being as forthcoming and as

(02:01:46):
honest as they could be.
And you said one thing thatreally puts this in perspective
for me that I hadn't heardbefore, and that is they walked
13 blocks.
Yep, that's a good little walk,and you were right.

(02:02:09):
I can imagine myself beingpissed off about something, and
by the time I get to the sixthor seventh block, it's like
let's go have a beer, right, I'mnot pissed off anymore.
You know that's a good walk.
So I think that crystallizessomething for a lot of Americans
.
And maybe they'd put that alltogether before and had thought

(02:02:34):
about it, but I had not 13blocks about it, but I had not
Thirteen blocks.
So when you say that look, youhad a lot of time to think about
where you were going and whatyou were going to do, and so for
somebody to start out at apoint 13 blocks away and to get

(02:02:54):
there 13 blocks later and thenstill be willing to engage in
violence, the only reasonablething that comes to my mind is
that the further they walked,the more amped up and pissed off
they were getting, by choice,because the average person would
be like I don't know if it's agood idea or not.

Speaker 2 (02:03:17):
I mean, like there's no doubt that, uh, that these
types of events attract, youknow, interesting types and a
lot of the people that areinvolved in some of the fringe
groups that were there.
You know the Oath Keepers,crowd Boys and the Three

(02:03:38):
Percenters.
You know these areorganizations that promote, you
know, anti-government sentiment.
They're extremist organizationsand a lot of their membership
is, you know, predisposed toacting violently.
I mean that's why they joinedthese organizations.
I mean, if you remember in the2020, you know Black Lives

(02:04:00):
Matter movement, these were thegroups that would go seek out
violent confrontations withcounter protesters or with
protesters that were there.
Yes, and that was kind of likewhat they did.
I mean that's really like likethe Proud Boys.
That's kind of like their.
You know their business modelis like you know Enrique Tarrio

(02:04:25):
and you know a couple of theguys like at the higher, the
highest hierarchy, you know, inthe organization.
All they're doing is incitingpeople to go out, commit acts of
violence, videotape it, thenthey post it on their YouTube

(02:04:46):
channel.
That encourages more people tojoin, because you can't go to a
rally and beat up protestersunless you're wearing your, you
know, laurel Reef gold PB shirtand your little beanie and, you

(02:05:06):
know, maybe like somemilitary-style garb, and so for
them, it was just a you knowopportunity to make a buck, just
a, um, you know opportunity tomake a buck, yeah, um, but you
know, still, like you, you hadthese groups that were, you know
, embedded in the crowd and usethe crowd.

(02:05:27):
I believe it was, you know,intentional, it was a tactic um
and storm the capital, um, andyou know you could say there
were people that got caught upin that, but there were a lot of
people that were, you know,just regular Americans that

(02:05:48):
still made that walk for 13blocks that I would like to
thank.
You know, from having spokenwith a few of them, that they
had relatively like level headson their shoulders, with a few
of them that they had relativelylike level heads on their
shoulders, uh, but still decidedthat you know, this was a
worthy um, uh, you knowengagement yeah, I you're right,

(02:06:10):
man, that there's no arguingthat you are right.

Speaker 1 (02:06:15):
And I should point rumor has it that for anybody
who was going to that, that itwas easier to find the Oath
Keepers than it was the ProudBoys, for the simple fact that
Stuart Rhodes was keeping an eyeout for them.

Speaker 2 (02:06:34):
I found it.
It was pretty funny that, likethe leadership of those
organizations, they weren'tanywhere near the Capitol that
day.
Yeah, nick Attario, nowhere tobe found.
Stuart Rhodes, he's not going,he's not stupid enough to
fucking go to the Capitol.
But you know the imbeciles thatthey employ.
You know they were more thanhappy to, you know, to

(02:07:00):
participate, and a lot of themgot 22 years in prison for
seditious conspiracy, which isessentially treason, but were
commuted.
And you know, again, I thoughtthat was going to be an off-road
for a lot of people in.
You know, watching thepresident of the United States

(02:07:20):
pardon traitors to the country,yeah, and then call them heroes
and like because, listen, youknow, not everybody's in the
cult and there's a lot of peoplethat just voted for Trump for
his economic policies.
Maybe they would be, you know,outraged by that.

Speaker 1 (02:07:38):
And there was fucking nothing yeah, no, no, there was
, there wasn't.
And to get into the uh like how, how vulnerable you have to be,
for example, regarding uh,stewart rhodes, look, if I'm
going to somebody, it's probablynot going to be the guy who

(02:07:59):
shot his own fucking eye out,right?

Speaker 2 (02:08:06):
It doesn't get any simpler for that.
Simpler than that the guy thatyou're following into combat is
not going to be the guy thatshot himself in the fucking eye
in a you know whatever you'reshooting at the range or
something else, I mean I mean,it's pathetic.

Speaker 1 (02:08:26):
Uh, tario.
I don't know as much aboutenrique that than I do Stuart
Rhodes, but I know enough thathe comes across to me as an
insecure little guy.

Speaker 2 (02:08:49):
Am I?
I mean, that's kind of my take.
I mean, that encounter thatwent viral or whatever, was
pretty much the onlyface-to-face interaction I'd
ever had with him.
But to kind of give you a senseof that, I was speaking at an
event that happened to be goingon in Washington DC the same
time as CPAC, which CPAC haskind of become this, I mean,

(02:09:15):
really like a circus for all thetrump, you know, maga freaks
yeah, freaks is perfect.
Yeah, so I guess tario found outthat I was speaking and he and
this other guy, ivan ranklin um,who's just like a little tiny
guy, like, if you watch thevideo, I I encourage you to get

(02:09:36):
a laugh.
I call him a bald-headed bitchand that's pretty much the best
description that you could have.
But he's, you know, formermilitary claims to be like a
former Green Beret and all theseother things, right, which you

(02:09:57):
know, whatever, like listen, Ihave a lot of guys, a lot of
friends who serve that say, like, listen, my service does not
give me permission to be a pieceof shit for the rest of my life
after I leave the military,right?
So I would say that to you know, ivan Ranklin, like, your
service to this country does notgive you permission to be a
piece of shit and a traitor tothe country after you leave the

(02:10:20):
military.
But they showed up at the eventand all of them are wearing,
they've got their littleuniforms on, but all of them are
wearing body-worn cameras.
And then you have, they'reflanked by their.
You know, I guess you wouldcall them.
What are the little kids likeGen Zers that do Instagram pages

(02:10:50):
and TikTok and shit like that.
Bring their bodyguards, yeah,influencers or whatever.
So they're flanked by theseguys and everybody's filming and
you know, Tario's likefollowing me and following me
and following me and I'm justtrying to walk away like dude, I
don't want fucking someencounter.
This is stupid, I'm not goingto be a part of your viral
moment.
And then he called me a traitor, which struck a nerve, and

(02:11:13):
obviously I responded to that.
But the idea is provoke aviolent reaction from Mike
Fanone, get Mike Fanone to pushme or shove me or, you know,
maybe punch me in the face andthen I'm going to sue him.
Yep, and to me and pretty mucheverybody I grew up with, like

(02:11:37):
the least masculine way to goabout solving a dispute is
saying I'm going to sue you, yougot it, and so you know, it's
just like that.
That was the moment that I kindof like I was like, ha ha, I got
the game, I get the game.
And, reekie, like you're notgetting your stupid viral moment

(02:11:58):
, like you're a bitch, you're alittle clown army or a bunch of
bitches, you're never gonna doanything except phone in bomb
threats and you know, go on thedark web and dox my family.
Um, like you're just, you'renot anything more than that, and
I do know a little bit aboutEnrique Tarrio.

(02:12:20):
Enrique Tarrio was a faileddrug dealer who became a
government informant, and heworked as a paid government
informant for quite a lengthyperiod of time, to include while
he was the head of the proudboys he was actually he was

(02:12:42):
actually an informant of themetropolitan police department.
You can look up.
You know that he was beinghandled by a former Lieutenant
at the metropolitan policedepartment who was later
convicted of obstruction tojustice for feeding Tario
information because thatLieutenant, shane Lamond, was a

(02:13:02):
MAGA sympathizer.
But nevertheless, this was aguy who was literally providing
information about other membersof his organization for his own
personal benefit.
So that speaks to that's whoEnrique Tario is.
He is an opportunist.
He's trying to make money andhe's willing to exploit you know

(02:13:26):
everybody that's around him todo so, kind of like his you know
his master, donald Trump.

Speaker 1 (02:13:35):
Right, right.
No, he has.
It's clear to me, and I justabout said clear to anybody, but
that's obviously not true.
I just want it to be true.
It's clear to people like youand I that Donald Trump's only
allegiance is to Donald Trump.

(02:13:57):
He's not a Republican.
He's not a Republican, he's nota Democrat.
He's an opportunist likeEnrique Tarrio.
He will say anything, he willdo anything, he will pretend
anything that he thinks willposition him to benefit in the

(02:14:18):
greatest way.
It doesn't matter who it fucks,it doesn't matter who gets hurt
, as long as it's good for him.
And that that everybody can'tsee that clearly at this point
it's.
It tests your understanding ofof human behavior.

Speaker 2 (02:14:40):
You know, I agree, and, to elaborate on that, like
I actually see thisadministration as being slightly
different in some respects thanthe last administration.
You know, the lastadministration, obviously, there
was like a lot of guardrails,like a lot of guardrails.
People talk about that.
There were people, you know,despite being despicable, human

(02:15:01):
beings in his administrationthat were at least willing to
prevent him from, you know,destroying democracy, right.
Those don't exist anymore.
It's just a bunch of, yes, men.
But I see Trump as like someonewho, like holds a grudge in a

(02:15:21):
way that I think most people arejust not capable of
comprehending, right.
And I see, like, I think likehe's made a lot of friends
outside of this country you knowthe Saudis, for instance and so
I was having a conversationwith a buddy of mine the other
day and he was talking about thetariffs and he's like, well,
it's got to be a good strategybecause Trump's losing his own

(02:15:43):
wealth.
I'm like, listen, dude, trump'sgoing to be fine.
You know, when all this is saidand done, the dust settles like
Trump's going to.
You know he's going to recruitwhatever wealth and he's going
to get more.
Yes, I think, in my humbleopinion, a lot of what we're
experiencing right now is DonaldTrump taking out his anger on

(02:16:07):
America for rejecting him Iagree For fucking voting him out
of office.
Going all the way back to, like, his childhood, like people not
accepting him in the realestate community in New York,
and all of these differentgrievances that he has, you know
, written down in some fuckingyou know composition book

(02:16:28):
somewhere and he's just goingback you know, line by line.
But it's, he doesn't care, he'sgoing to fuck everybody over
Everybody.

Speaker 1 (02:16:40):
I agree wholeheartedly, and you know
when people and they have apoint as to what they're talking
about.
Regarding his dementia andthings of that nature, I can
tell you one part of his brainthat does not suffer a bit.
He remembers every fuckingslight that he perceives of that

(02:17:01):
anyone has ever done to him.
That's just a different part ofstorage for him.
He's not going to forget thenumber of years between the
event and when he seeks, getshis revenge or retribution
doesn't matter to him.
When the opportunity presentsitself, he remembers.
Couldn't agree more.

(02:17:21):
Yeah, it's vengeance on America, yep, yeah.
And you made a point about themoney.
Oh, I agree.
Look, don't you in your mindthink that, in terms of all of
the just?
If we look at the documentsthat he took the top secret
classified stuff he's providedenough people in different

(02:17:45):
countries with the informationthat they desperately wanted
that if you left him pennilesstoday, he could fly somewhere,
set up shop and they're going tomake him as wealthy as he's
ever been again.
I fully believe that.
Does that mirror your thoughtson that?

Speaker 2 (02:18:06):
Absolutely.
I mean, I'm not in the know inthat way, obviously, but it's
like if you look at Trump andyou understand Trump and you
know that he's transactional bynature, then yes, you know
everything is for sale toinclude, you know, our most, you

(02:18:27):
know, classified of information.
You know information that would, you know, put American lives
at risk.
It's all for sale, you know,because he just he's not capable
of caring about those people asas individuals, as you know
American, you know publicservants or you know it just

(02:18:51):
it's just a way to make money.

Speaker 1 (02:18:54):
Yeah, yeah, as his entire life has been, as we kind
of, because I'm sure you havesomething else, even if it's
just having a cold beer, thatyou might want to do today.
So I'll kind of start windingdown here.
But just Michael Fanone, justMichael Fanone, if I were in

(02:19:20):
wherever you are located today,if I was there and you had a day
where you didn't have a lot ofshit to do, we could basically
just kind of fuck off.
What would I expect toencounter?
What might we do in terms ofthe stuff you usually do?

Speaker 2 (02:19:42):
Oh well, the first thing that we're going to do,
given that you were in themilitary, is we're going to
drink beer and shoot guns off myback deck, hey say no more, I'm
there brother, it's become oneof my favorite pastimes.
Um, yeah, I mean um, I'm in thewoods.
You know, I I've got, uh, twocoon hounds.

(02:20:05):
So we gotta, nice, we gotta takebuddy and harold out um and
harold, nice, and then, um, youknow, if you got more than a day
, we might take a trip down tothe Chesapeake Bay and go
fishing.
That's definitely, that's myhappy place, oh yeah.
But then you know, like I said,man, at three thirty four

(02:20:31):
o'clock I turn into a soccer momand you know I'm carting my
kids around.
But yeah, I love it, man, yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:20:39):
You know I'll tell you and you know I'm carting my
kids around.
But yeah, I love it, man.
Yeah, you know I'll tell youand you know what I mean.
If somebody's never experiencedit before, maybe they do or
maybe they don't.
But there's nothing like thatbellowing of a couple of
coonhounds in the middle of thenight coming out of the woods.

Speaker 2 (02:20:56):
man, that's just a beautiful sound at night coming
out of the woods.
Man, that's just a beautifulsound, yeah, no, I mean, I got
one that buddy's like a mute,but uh, harold, he gets real
riled up and, um, I'll, I'll bay, and he'll bay.
And then, uh, you know, I liketo think that I'm talking to him
, or maybe he just thinks I'mtalking to him, but they're the
best dogs in the world.

Speaker 1 (02:21:15):
Oh, yeah, yeah, the the closest we've got four dogs
here at the house.
Uh, the closest we've got to acoon hound right now is a basset
hound and he, like he's veryvocal.

Speaker 2 (02:21:26):
Yeah, uh, he's a pretty mellow dude when I come
back in the next life, I want tobe a basset hound yeah, yeah,
he.

Speaker 1 (02:21:35):
I always joke he maybe one reason he's so happy
all the time he always lookslike he's about half drunk.
You know bloodshot eyes.
But yeah, I know that there area ton of I would say most
actually of Democrats who followme and that's one thing.

(02:21:57):
I've never been shy about it.
I realize it turns some peopleoff or they just don't get it,
and that's cool.
But I've owned guns my entirelife.
I grew up in a rural community,hunting, fishing and, like I
said, sometimes just going out,I mean one of my pastimes.

(02:22:17):
When I was in high school Ididn't know it was a pastime,
but I might go out with myshotgun, a box of shells, and
find an old, dead tree and seehow many shells it took to blow
it down.
You know, just pick a spot atthe base and shoot and I get
that.
That's not something everybodycan identify with, but guns, the

(02:22:40):
responsible use of guns, hasbeen a part of my entire life
and there's a big difference.
Look, I'm all for gun reform onanything that has to do with
saving the lives of kids orkeeping it out of the hands of
assholes like these MAGA folksthat just got pardoned, right?

(02:23:01):
No argument for me there.
But I've found a lot of joy inlife, connected not only through
gun ownership but theconnections I've formed with
other people and the outingsthat we have.
You know it may or may not beabout the gun per se, but it

(02:23:23):
seems like that's an integralpart of what brings you together
.
You know we're quail hunting,deer hunting, whatever it may be
.
If you grow up, I assume, likeyou did and like I did, it was
just a part of life.
Right, it wasn't so much achoice.

(02:23:45):
You didn't say I'm going to beinterested in guns.
You grew up around guns.
Is that how it was for you?

Speaker 2 (02:23:53):
Yeah, I mean, you know there's just I've been
around, like I mean I lived in,you know I lived in inner city
Baltimore.
I've lived in, you know, innercity Washington DC.
I've spent.
You know, as soon as I left thepolice department, I moved as
far the hell away from the cityas I could not to say that there
weren't things about cityliving that I enjoyed.

(02:24:14):
But this is my home and this iswhere I like to be and this is,
you know.
But it's like there are certainPastimes that people experience
that are based off of, you know,just geographic location or

(02:24:34):
life experiences, or even likeyour socioeconomic you know
background, and it's like I justit's hard because I, like you
were saying you've got a lot of,like Democratic followers and

(02:24:55):
like when I started speaking outagainst Trump, like obviously
you know that those were thepeople that you know were
willing to listen, but then liketo see people get so outraged
because, like I enjoy hunting,right, and like you don't know
anything about like themotivations behind it and like
the you know you don't know whatPittman-Robertson Act is and

(02:25:17):
like how much money that youknow hunters and anglers in this
country contribute to keepingour national parks pristine and
how pretty much all the fundingcomes from sportsmen, the
hunting sports and the shootingsports.
And then it's like any otherhobby.

(02:25:38):
And then you know it's like Idon't know, it's like any other
hobby.
And if you do it responsiblyand you're, you know, a good
steward of you know the sportand the environment that you're
in, I don't understand why likepeople would be so vehemently
opposed to it and like I mean.
I'll give you another example.
I was on Adam Kinzinger's substack the other day.

(02:26:00):
I said I'd never own anelectric car and I've never
received so much.

Speaker 1 (02:26:08):
I don't fuck up that man.

Speaker 2 (02:26:09):
Like why I like you, Mike, you are my hero.
And what can I do to convinceyou to have an electric car?
Right?
And I'm just like, dude, I'vegot fucking four kids, an
ex-wife fucking two dogs.
What electric car are you awareof that's large enough to

(02:26:34):
fucking fit all those people init?
And also, dude, I live out inthe middle of nowhere.
There's no fucking ev.
That's it for me.
Stations like I, I I'd have to.
I hate to break it to you butlike, not everywhere looks
exactly like you know yourcommunity and like, while that

(02:26:57):
might be incredibly efficient,and if you know a great way, and
like, listen, dude, I love thefucking you know the earth.
Like I'm a public land hunter,I fucking, um, you know like I
am a steward of, I am a, a bigproponent of, you know you leave

(02:27:18):
it better than you found it,but I just can't get down right
now with the electric vehicle.
So don't hate me for it.

Speaker 1 (02:27:26):
Right, well, same same thing, dude, I've.
I've got um three kids, um wife, four dogs, um, we've got a
Ford exhibition.
You can't get everybody inanything else, right?
And, like you said, um, there'sno place for me to plug in

(02:27:48):
around here, right?
I mean it's it's straight upsnickers bars and uh, gas pumps
around this town.
That's that's uh, you aSnickers bar and fill your tank
and eat the Snickers bar whileit's filling up.
And in a Ford exhibition ittakes a little bit to fill it up
.

(02:28:08):
But, like you said, for me it'smore of just a matter of
practicality.
I can't fit everybody in thecurrent electric cars.
I can't fit everybody in thecurrent electric cars and mine
would just sit in my drivewaybecause after the charge went
down, I'd have no place to go tocharge it up.
And I talked to somebody here awhile back that had set up his

(02:28:31):
own charging station at home.
It wasn't cheap, it took somemoney, wasn't cheap, you know it
.
It it took um so much.
So, yeah, that's that's beenone of my um, uh, frustrations.
I guess it's like look I'm, I'mworking tirelessly against this
whole Trump regime and MAGA andall that shit, and I, I voted

(02:28:56):
for Joe Biden and I voted forKamala Harris, but you've got to
understand.
I was a Republican for over 50years and grew up in rural
America and that's not somethingyou can just strip out of
somebody, even when they'remaking better decisions with the

(02:29:16):
current political environment.

Speaker 2 (02:29:17):
Yeah, jack, I just tell people like my response is
super simple.
It's um, hey, listen, I'll tellyou what.
Let's save democracy, and thenyou can get back to hating me
for killing, uh, defenselessanimals and not wanting to drive
a fucking um electric vehiclethere you go you know, I would

(02:29:38):
tell you right now.

Speaker 1 (02:29:39):
In my refrigerator, at this very moment I just
prepped it last night I've gottwo deer tenderloins marinating
in a stainless steel bowl thatI'll probably either have
tonight or tomorrow night.
Now you talk about being asteward.
Look, one of the issues we havearound here with deer is

(02:30:00):
chronic wasting disease, andthat's because of overpopulation
of deer.
So hunting is a very importantaspect from a conservation point
of view in limiting things likedisease, and I've always been
someone who not everybody likeswild game, but I do.

(02:30:21):
I've eaten just abouteverything that lives in the
state of Missouri.
Right, I like it.
So I consider that being a goodsteward too.
Not only am I taking a role inthe conservation of wildlife,
but I'm also not tossing it in aditch somewhere, I'm taking it

(02:30:45):
home and eating, you knowwhether that's fishing or
hunting.

Speaker 2 (02:30:51):
You know people just need to better understand the
American conservation model.
Better understand the Americanconservation model, like how it
is that we, like, are able tomaintain so many different
species in this country and nothave them, you know, extinct

(02:31:19):
because of, you know,overpopulation.
You know just our own.
You know human, human beingsand growth and taking up space
and preventing diseases like CWD.
Like you just said, huntingreally is like the biggest
Hunting and deer getting hit bycars oh man, the biggest tools
that we have.
and I'd much rather as somebodywho's constantly getting

(02:31:39):
attacked by deer as I'm drivingmy car oh shit, I hear you I'd
much prefer to hunt uh than Iwould, you know, spend the rest
of my time at mako getting bodywork done too man, that's it,
brother.

Speaker 1 (02:31:55):
Uh, the number of people I mean it's on any given
day around here, if you get outand go to the grocery store,
you're going to run intosomebody who just a year, um,
and look, there are humanfatalities that often result out

(02:32:22):
of that interaction as well.
So, um, it's an interplay rightOf of all life in.
Uh, but again, for those whoare listening or watching or who
follow me and you're like, yeah, I'm not into that shit at all
and I hate that you are, that'sfine, that's fine.
You're, it's okay that you feelthat way.

(02:32:44):
I'm not mad at you for feelingthat way, but, um, you know,
maybe you might try not being somad at me for feeling the way I
do, um, anything else that, um,you've got going on or that you
might want to throw out that Ihaven't touched on today.

(02:33:06):
Now, you've got me wound upabout coming out and drinking
beer and hunting and fishing.

Speaker 2 (02:33:10):
You're welcome out here any time, man, I would love
that I may be out in Kansas inthe upcoming week, so I might
have to hit you up.

Speaker 1 (02:33:18):
Oh dude, listen, you've got a place to stay.
Should you come this way?
No shit, hit me up, I will.
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
So any timeline on the moviedeal.

Speaker 2 (02:33:36):
No, I mean we're through like, uh, I think the
second, you know, editing of thescript, but I'm pretty excited
about it, oh hell yeah, that isexciting.

Speaker 1 (02:33:49):
Uh, and look, man, you deserve and it's coming from
me, but I I think this is onbehalf of so many Americans you
deserve all the good shit thatcomes your way in life.
There's no way to.

(02:34:12):
When I look at your J6-relatedexperiences, maybe a lot of
people get focused on the actualattack.
What I always get focused on isthe choice to come speak out,
the, the decision to testify.
That to me is I'm like that's afucking man right there.

(02:34:36):
Harry does.
That's a fucking man rightthere.
They they're getting deaththreats Now, like I learned
today, your own.
You know the police departmentsdidn't want you to do that, but
you have the kind of metal thatsays fuck it, it's the right
thing.
I'm going to do that.
I'm going to do that.

(02:34:58):
You know there's no way thenation can ever repay people
like you who do the right thing,when there are all of these
compelling reasons like yourlife not to.
So, from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:35:16):
I appreciate that, Jack.
Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (02:35:20):
And thanks for having me on there.
Absolutely, um, get on withyour day, enjoy it.
And, uh, I, I, I hope you won'tbe pissed off when I say let's
look at your schedule.
When can I come hunt?
Because?

Speaker 2 (02:35:33):
because I may hit you up brother like uh, we're like
ankle deep in uh turkey seasonright now.

Speaker 1 (02:35:39):
Man, yeah, it's nice here, uh, been out early a
couple of mornings and man, theold goblin is it's, it's.
It's going hot and heavy rightnow.
A lot of horny Tom's out there.
All right, brother, listen,thank you, and uh, we'll maybe
do this again sometime.

Speaker 2 (02:35:58):
I'd love it.

Speaker 1 (02:35:59):
Thank you all right, all right, take care, bye, bye.

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