May 25, 2023 • 44 mins
Tony Molina is an author, avid outdoorsman, and professional firearms trainer. Stephan invited Tony on this week's episode to discuss his book, 'Handgun Selection for Grizzly Bear Defense,' as well as the best defense strategies against bear and other large animal attacks in the backcountry.
During the episode, Tony emphasized the importance of training to become proficient in using a gun, highlighting that simply purchasing one does not make you an expert. He also stressed the significance of carrying a defense mechanism that can be deployed within 3 seconds. Handguns are the popular choice due to their accessibility and ability to meet the suggested 3-second timeframe. Tony also covered essential information about firearms, including the best ammunition for defensive purposes.
The topic of bear spray was also discussed, with Tony providing unique insights into its effectiveness. While bear spray is often successful in deterring bears, it is not foolproof and has limitations. Tony recommends carrying both a handgun and bear spray, allowing for responsible choices based on the specific circumstances.
Overall, this episode serves as an excellent resource for anyone seeking to enhance their knowledge about staying safe in bear country. You can find Tony's book, 'Handgun Selection for Grizzly Bear Defense,' on Amazon.
This week's episode is supported in part by Teton County Solid Waste and Recycling, reminding residents and commercial businesses of Teton County’s food waste programs; the next frontier material in the quest to achieve the County’s goal to reduce, aiming for zero waste. More at TetonCountyWY.gov or at @RoadToZeroWaste.JH on Instagram.
Support also comes from The Jackson Hole Marketplace. The Deli at Jackson Hole Marketplace offers ready-made soups, sandwiches, breakfast burritos, and hot lunch specials. More at JHMarketplace.com
Want to be a guest on The Jackson Hole Connection? Email us at connect@thejacksonholeconnection.com. Marketing and editing support by Michael Moeri (michaelmoeri.com)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You are tuned into the Jackson hole,connection, sharing, fascinating stories
of people connected to Jackson Hole.
I am truly grateful for each ofyou for tuning in today and support
for this podcast comes from:
I'll begin today's episode with alittle quote from Tick, not hod.
Because of your smile, youmake life more beautiful and
(00:23):
welcome to episode number 243.
My guest today is Tony Molina, an author,outdoorsman, and a guy who knows the
importance of being thorough with researchand being prepared in the outdoors.
Tony's book, handgun Selection forGrizzly Bear Defense provides information
(00:43):
for people to make a decision aboutwhat is their best defense when they're
traveling around in bear country.
And guess what?
We live in bear country.
I really did learn a ton about caringhandguns while in the back country.
And some perspectives of whyhaving a handgun over bear spray
or even having both are important.
(01:03):
for you to decide of whatyou feel is best for you.
Tony presents his well-researchedinformation in a method, which I
follow and appreciate now is extremelyengaged with the conversation that
Tony was sharing with us today.
Tony, welcome to theJackson Hole Connection.
I'm so honored and delighted
that you have some Time to share withme and all the listeners out there.
(01:27):
in the podcasting world.
so thank you.
Nice to see you today.
Likewise.
Thanks for having me on
welcome.
welcome.
So Tony, I began every
episode with people
sharing
How they
landed here in Jackson.
So where were you born?
Where
did you get to be dirty whenyou were growing up as a kid, if
you chose to be dirty as a kid.
(01:47):
I did.
and then how did you land
here in Jackson?
yeah, definitely.
So I grew up in Northern Californiain a place called Niece in Clear Lake,
uh, really small town, very rural area.
then my parents kind of split up.
I ended up spending time between thereand like the San Francisco Bay area.
. after I got outta school, decided totry and find my fit and I've always,
(02:08):
I've got my first 22 rifle when Iwas five, so shooting has always been
a really important part of my life.
and as the years progressed, itgot tougher and tougher to continue
that passion in California with lawsand restrictions and things like
that, and just general social views.
so I kind of did some gametesting down in, uh, Southern
California working at EA games.
. I did train in some hunting dogs and dokind of ranch work and mechanicing up
(02:31):
in Northern California by Mount Shasta.
eventually I started to realizelike instead of continuing selling
things and getting rid of gunparts, that would make me a felon.
Next year when the next lawpassed, I'd move somewhere where
uh, I would be welcomed andaccepted for what I like to do.
And I had three states.
It was Montana, Alaska, and Wyoming.
and everybody, you know,looked at me like I was crazy.
(02:52):
A lot of my friends are, you know,from, San Francisco area specifically.
They're like, what the heck?
Like, nobody lives out in those places.
What the heck would you do there?
And, um, you know, yeah, perfectfor me, . So I said, yeah, totally.
I was talking to one of my friends andI said, Hey, I'm moving out to Wyoming.
And he said, Hey, let's, I'll go with you.
Let's work at JacksonHole Mountain Resort.
And I was like, Okay, whatever.
(03:12):
Like it'll be my connection.
I'll go out there, I'll meet some people,I'll kind of network, see what I can find.
So I did, I moved out, uh, wasworking there for my first winter,
then ended up meeting a skier thatwas driving, coming down the path he
was looking for, you know, a ride.
And, uh, he was talking about how heneeded someone to work on a ranch.
So I worked on a ranch down in Big Piney.
for the next summer there.
(03:33):
Then came back to Jackson,worked the next winter.
And as I was trying to figure out,you know, the shooting sports and
how to kind of get involved andstuff like that, I had been a local
member at the Jacksonville Gun Club.
I went to this competition in thesummer of 2017, which was the Wyoming
top 100, which was trying to findlike the top 100 shooters in Wyoming.
there I met one of the coaches forthe Jackson Hole shooting experience.
(03:55):
And, As we were talking, Iwas like, Hey, what do you do?
You know, this and that, tryingto make some connections.
And he mentioned that he, part-time workedfor the Jackson Hole shooting experience
and I thought, man, if they could use aguy like him, they would love a guy like
me, . So, um, so I called up and, youknow, hit it off and then really just
hit it off, especially with Tim Brutin,who took me under his wing and kind of
taught me all the ropes of everything.
(04:16):
So, Yeah, I've been instructing withthem for the past, almost six years now.
And, um, just love it.
It's the best job I could ever have had.
and I'm really, really gratefulto Shepherd Humphreys and Lyncher.
They're the owners of the company,
Mm-hmm.
.Cool.
So I, I want to.
Rewind just a little bit.
I, I like detail.
So what year was that, that you moved outhere to work with your friend at J H M R
(04:40):
so that'd been 2015, uh, October of
2015.
Yep.
Okay.
And what was the ranch that you worked?
You said Pinedale?
Uh, yeah, so Pinedale and thenBig Piney is south of that.
So if you go past Daniel.
so yeah, it was kind ofbetween Daniel and Big Piney.
It was, uh, previously Cottonwood Ranch.
Um, nowadays I think it, theranch has been sold, um, but
it was a really cool ranch.
It was, you know, roughly around85,000 acres, uh, 23 miles long.
(05:03):
Really, really fun.
And I got to experience all 230 miles
of fence line.
Oh, I bet you did.
And
so
over time, you
started working for
Jackson Hole shooting experience, butI want to find out you went to that
competition.
Did you, were you a competitor?
Were you com participating?
(05:24):
Yes, I was participating.
so my car at the time, I had a repairneeded, so I was living basically by side
winders in town for those who know, isabout six miles from the shooting range.
So the competition was rifle and pistoland like a semi-automatic rifle and a
semi-automatic pistol, which is kindof the most common two gun setup.
So I was trying to figure outhow to get there in time and.
(05:46):
with my guns and stuff cuz I didn'thave my car . I decided to fold up
my AK 47, put it in my backpack, andset up my pistol and my holster and
everything, throw it in my backpack,bunch of ammo, first aid stuff, and
just bicycled on down to the range
And how did you do in the competition?
know, I did really well.
I actually got to, I didn't, uh, make itinto the top 100 because my attention, I'm
(06:08):
sure I would've . Um, my attention quicklyturned to the governor's match, which, uh,
at the time there was a firearms policyadvisor for the governor, uh, Nephi,
who kind of recruited me and is like,Hey, I'm trying to get people for this.
You look like you canreally handle your stuff.
Um, would you like to come out toCheyenne and do this competition?
and I was like, uh, yeah.
(06:28):
So that was in August.
and just blew my socks off.
I got to meet so many cool people.
Um, I performed great in there.
my setup was probably a little bitnot prime for the gaming aspects of
it, but gosh did I have so much fun.
It was really, really neat.
So, that was a valuable part
of my experience.
And in your industry, did thatopen up some doors for you?
(06:51):
you know, I met a lot of people, afew of them that I still talk to,
but, um, I wouldn't say that itopened any new doors that I pursued.
And one of the reasons is because I wasjust so enamored and fascinated with
the Jackson Hole shooting experience.
I mean, they have.
Their business just set in such agood way to really capture, you know,
experienced shooters, new shooters,and just help 'em get to new levels,
(07:14):
experience new things, all kinds of stuff.
So I'm really bummed I'm actuallygonna be moving this year.
I'm gonna be
leaving the company,uh, just for relocation.
yeah.
You know how the housing market goes here,so, yeah, but I mean, it's just, I kind
of didn't really look for any new doors,uh, or pursue 'em because I had such a
good fit with the shooting experience.
Mm-hmm.
, where do you mind, or do youknow where you're moving to?
(07:35):
Me and my wife were actually, um,getting a house in Eagle, Wisconsin.
Eagle,
Wisconsin.
Okay.
And you'll be able to still participatein your activities and your passion
of, of guns and shooting there?
Yep.
Yeah, I wanna, I really want tocontinue, you know, contributing to
the firearms community and pursuing mypassion of shooting sports and teaching.
(07:56):
so I, that was one of the criteria.
We had a long spreadsheet of acceptablestates we could move to for both
of our, you know, needs and wants.
And, uh, yeah, Wisconsindefinitely fit the bill for both
of us.
Sorry to see you leave andhave us lose somebody such as
yourself and our community.
now just so the listeners know, I havehad shepherd Humphrey with the Jackson
(08:17):
Hole shooting experience on the podcast.
I've known Shep for a whole bunch ofyears through different organizations
here in the community, and he's, he's a.
Really remarkable guy and fascinating.
He's written several booksand you have written a book,
and that's really why we're
talking today is because you have
written this book.
(08:38):
And, why don't you give me the title ofthe book that you have recently written?
So you're now,
uh, a firearms coach, but an author.
Correct.
The book is titled at HandgunSelection for Grizzly Bear Defense.
Uh, which is kind of a mouthful, butI wanted it to be catchy, and this
would be applicable to any large mammaldefense, whether you were getting
attacked by a mountain lion or amoose or something, which oftentimes,
(09:01):
you know, people find themselves inthese weird, unthinkable positions
to start off, have you ever
had a grizzly bear interaction?
interaction, yes, but not anylike violent or aggressive,
conflicts or anything like that.
Okay.
what was your interaction with the
grizzly beer?
Um, I'm an elk hunter out hereand an archery hunter as well.
(09:23):
So you get in really close quarters,in dense woods, where there might
not be the ability to signal yourpresence to bears, um, before
you're in their personal bubble.
. Mm-hmm.
So, I mean, yeah, anything from,you know, if I'm archery hunting
with my friend, I would be calling,they would be arch uh, like the head
position ahead of me or vice versa.
And uh, when you're out theredoing that calling like an elk, you
(09:44):
sound like a grizzly bear's meal.
So they will come in and inspectthat and sometimes, you know, you
can hear them coming towards you andthink like, oh man, there's an elk.
I better get ready.
And then you see this big patch of brownfor it come up and you go, oh my gosh.
Nope, that's not an
elk
that's not enough.
That's a bear.
No, and you know, fortunately, youknow, all bears are very different.
Just like all people are very different.
Um, they have differenttemperaments and personalities.
So as long as you and I largelyattribute my not having any aggressive
(10:08):
encounters, uh, specifically to my,like bear awareness and knowhow, Um,
as long as you are capable of, youknow, signaling and utilizing body
language and other things, to kind ofsignify, Hey, I'm not your normal food
source and I'm also not, uh, anythingthat you wanna chase down for prey.
bears tend to be pretty intelligentcreatures, so, um, luckily been banking
on that.
Well, I am happy to hear that you have
(10:30):
not had a, a bad interaction with a bearat this point, and with all your hunting.
Have you come across mountainlions because, Sometimes you don't
know a mountain lion's around,but they know you are around.
Most of the time you don't know they'rearound and they know you're around.
Um, so I haven't actually, um,seen any in close proximity.
like out in Wyoming, however,uh, I've definitely seen
(10:53):
fresh tracks and fresh sign.
I've been like, oh man, like all I knowthis could be, you know, an hour old.
And they were.
We didn't intersect our paths orthey've been hanging out and kind
of looking at me and scoping me out.
so yeah, it's just one of those thingswhere, you know, it helps to keep
your head on the swivel, be very awareof your surroundings, and I think
that's just a, an inherent part ofgoing out into, you know, the wild.
(11:13):
Very true and Tony, thank you
for,
stating that.
cuz whether somebody is out hunting
or
if they're out riding theirmountain bike or on a hike,
a walk,
whatever the case may be,
is important.
To keep your head on the swivel.
And
nowadays, when I've been
out hiking, I
now hear people playing their music ontheir phone or these portable speakers,
(11:37):
and I don't know if that's a detractor for
the animals, but for
me, I don't think people can really
hear their surroundings and reallyknow what is going on around them.
And I think that is a, anegative to, to people walking
around with their music playing.
Yeah, I think there's a, acost benefit analysis there.
You know, some folks might think like,Hey, if I'm playing this music kinda
(11:58):
like bare bells, it'll alert thingsto my presence as I'm going through.
the other thing is it doescloud your sensory, intake.
You know, so you might not hear or seea bear or a moose or something like that
and be able to react and give yourselfadequate distance to avoid a conflict.
Right.
Now let's get back to
the book.
that you wrote.
I'm really curious to know
(12:19):
how did you do
the research?
Yeah.
So, um, growing up my dad always had a,uh, kind of a bear defense handgun cuz
he was a big hunter and things like that.
He'd go to Idaho and allthese different places.
he always had a single action,44 Magnum Ruger, super Blackhawk.
And that was like growing up.
I knew that was the gun that could takedown a bear, you know, as a child I
didn't know a whole lot about that sortof thing except for what I was told.
(12:40):
Um, so he did give me that gun at a point.
and when I was out here, that was myfirst kind of go-to defensive line.
I had my bear spray, andthen I had that, um, handgun.
And, uh, as I kind of worked throughsome drills and things, as I learned
more from the shooting, uh, instructorside of things, um, and how to properly
prepare for, you know, an engagementor something like that, or some
defensive encounter, I realized thatThere was a want still, like I wanted
(13:03):
to be able to perform better, faster.
so I opted for trying out anothergun that I had, which was a revolver.
similar but it was a double actionso you could pull the trigger and it
would shoot each time versus caulkingthe hammer and shooting each time
where you had to cock the hammer.
Um, and then that led me into lookingat, you know, adequate calibers and
semi-automatics and all this stuff.
And a lot of this might not makesense to some listeners , cuz
there's a lot of information.
(13:23):
So I ended up doing this just massivedownload where I would look at everything
I could find online, everything Icould find in literature, books like,
uh, bear attacks, their Causes andAvoidance by Steven Herrero, government.
You know, bear spraythings and stuff like that.
Um, and then looking at what governmententities who often encounter or
have to encounter aggressive bearsutilize, you know, things like shotguns
with flus and high powered rifles.
(13:44):
Um, and that kind of just led me downthis huge rabbit hole where I was
researching everything I could find,anecdotal evidence, um, seeing what
worked, what didn't work, what gavepeople an edge for survivability.
Um, and that was where I endedup going to my final destination.
Where now, you know, Ihave a, a 10 millimeter.
Glock 20 handgun, which may makes sensefor some listeners, but that loaded with
(14:05):
an appropriate, ammunition, which wouldbe like a hard cast, flat nose projectile.
that is what you need.
You need a combination of like speed,momentum, penetration, um, in order to
achieve, you know, stopping an animal likea bear or moose or something like that.
I'm not a person that
is extremely knowledgeable about guns.
I grew up, my dad always had guns.
(14:25):
He collected 'em.
He'd take my brother and I outto the shooting range and we'd
shoot guns and we grew up withBB guns and pump B gun, BB guns.
I remember as a kid, I blew out the backwindow of one of my friends cars, and I
got, he got in a lot of trouble for that.
I believe that.
but you're talking about 44 Magnum.
I think my dad had a 44 Magnum revolver.
(14:48):
I remember seeing that thing.
It was like, Clint
East Woods, you know, dirty Hairies
44 Magnum.
Right.
That is the model 29.
Yep.
Okay.
So that's a
big gun
compared to the Glock.
So I'm guessing that what your dadhad was a pretty big gun compared
to what your research has found.
You don't need as a large of a gun, butyou need the right am ammunition for it.
(15:12):
Yeah, that's been the general consensus.
there's a lot of factors that go intoit, which is why I wrote the book on it
so that people can kind of grab all thisstuff and digest it at their own pace.
Um, but there's not a one size fitsall answer for everyone, but the
commonalities between it, whetheryou're gonna have a 44 magnum or a 10
millimeter, even, you know, some peoplewould take like a 38 special or a nine
millimeter out there, which would havepreviously been seen as like, No way.
(15:34):
That's way too small for a grizzly bear.
but with, you know, proper ammunition andthings like that, um, they are capable.
So it's a matter of finding what you canuse and then looking at the common, uh,
elements that cause everything to succeed.
And I think one of the things thatpeople get hung up on is getting the
most powerful handgun they can find.
you know, if you can't shoot it accuratelyor quickly, then it kind of doesn't
(15:56):
really set you up for success, like asmaller, more manageable handgun might.
Now
why don't you speak to that alittle bit and before, after you
speak to that, I also want to get into
the difference,
in the ammunition, but speak to
just because somebody has a
powerful gun,
it doesn't mean that they can unholster it quickly enough and accurately
(16:21):
shoot it at what they're aiming at.
Yeah.
Um, kind of like buying a guitar does notmake you a guitarist, , or a musician.
buying a gun doesn't make you anexcellent marksman or prepared for,
you know, a defensive encounter.
There's a lot of training that goesinto developing the skills that might
give you an edge and some type ofencounter where you'd need to deploy
like a handgun or something like that.
(16:41):
So, I guess.
To talk about, you know,getting huge weighty guns.
A lot of people will findsome inconveniences there,
especially if you look at thelightweight backpacking community.
they're trying to shapeounces wherever they can.
So they'll often, you know, think, oh,I'll get this big 44 Magnum at first,
cuz that's what everyone recommends.
Like, get a, you know, thehighest caliber you can.
That's the only thing that'sgonna stop a grizzly bear.
(17:01):
Um, and they get thishuge weighty gun and it's.
, it becomes more of an annoyance.
It's always in the way.
It's kind of heavy.
And then they decide, you know what?
I'm just gonna take mybear spray this time.
Like I don't need to take my guncuz I'm just going to this part
where I don't see bears usually.
Murphy's Law would dictate that that isprobably the time you're gonna see a bear.
So you know, if you're gonna buya defensive means and want to
keep it accessible, which SteveNelson up in Alaska, he teaches
a lot of the government servicesand just normal people in general.
(17:24):
For bear defense stuff, his kind of motto,one of the things he'll say in his courses
is if it's not deployable within threeseconds, you may as well not even have it.
So that's your bear spray in the bottomof your backpack, that's your handgun
in the bottom of your backpack or ashotgun that's over by the truck and
you're at camp or something like that.
that's why handguns, which are sort ofa compromise in terms of energy and.
Power that you might think to stop a bear.
(17:46):
the reason that people opt for them sofrequently is because they're convenient
to keep accessible and deployable withinthat kind of three second timeframe.
Um, which you talked aboutholsters and kind of being able
to get it out quickly and stuff.
Um, proper holsters and differentholster options are made for all
the different activities that youdo in the wild, whether you're a fly
fisherman waiting into the river.
or you know, you're on horseback ridingthrough the mountains on trails, um, or
(18:10):
you're an archery hunter trying to getclose to animals and things like that.
So, yeah, there's a lot of differentoptions and it takes some research to get
yourself acquainted with what option mightfit you best and give you that extra edge
or chance, you know, to defend yourself.
So, again, one of the things thatI really wanted to hit on in the
book was those different holsteroptions because it's gotten so widely
(18:32):
accessible now in terms of options,whereas, Five, 10 years ago, the amount
of options was extremely limited.
holsters weren't popular.
Uh, they didn't make adequate,like mid leg or drop leg holsters.
were all these clunky, goofy, tacticalthings that you would see on like
SWAT teams and stuff, but they weren'treally practical for people who were
out in, you know, rugged terrain,utilizing their body in extensive times.
(18:55):
Sounds like you have done the
research.
So if people are outdoor enthusiastsand they choose to carry a handgun
with them for, security protection,reasons that your book would help
them navigate a lot of that research,probably save a lot of time for them.
Yeah, that was, that was, uh, the maingoal was after I got to my conclusion
(19:16):
and figured out, what I was gonnatrust to give me an edge, I realized,
wow, if anyone else wants thisanswer or to get to the same answer
in their own way, um, they're gonnahave to go through all this research.
So what I did, I wanted to justwrite a foundational informational.
Book that could shorten the learninggap and then increase the learning
curve, like the accelerated learningcurve, so that they could spend their
(19:37):
valuable time and energy and getmore payback out of it or payout.
Mm-hmm.
now what about the bear spray?
it's great.
I mean, I carry it all the time.
will often say like, oh, you know, bearspray's more effective than guns, which
is not scientific or backed up by studies.
Even the gentleman who wrote thestudies, uh, with Steven Herrero,
which was Tom Smith, he kind oftwo studies and I'm gonna actually
(19:59):
just open something up here.
Yeah.
one is the efficacy of Bair.
Deterrent spray in Alaska.
And then the other was efficacy offirearms for bear deterrents in Alaska.
And these have wildly different criteriaand very, very different circumstances.
One of the main ones that I'll pointto is that, the majority of data on
bear spray research is done with bearsthat are not actively aggressive.
(20:20):
So not charging, not causing, you know,Injury or things like that, not causing
a threat to life and stuff like that.
These are bears that arecurious, garbage feeding, moving
around and stuff like that.
And it's wildly effectivefor those types of scenarios.
You know, it's kind of like gettingsprayed in the face by a skunk.
It's an evolutionary thing, they arekind of hardwired to know, like, oh,
I don't mess with things that sprayme with these weird, you know, toxins
(20:41):
or chemicals or things like that.
and then when you look at the efficacyof firearms for fair defense in
Alaska, um, that study was largelydone on, instances where there was
some threat to life or property.
And those are verydifferent circumstances.
So, even the author, Smith.
He said that some people do comparethese two studies, but there was never
a thought on the authors of comparingthem cuz they're wildly different.
(21:03):
So, when people say bear spray is 98%effective, there's a big asterisk next
to that on, you know, how effectiveis it in aggressive bear encounters.
Um, and then another thing to that isthere's, it's not a foolproof system.
Just like firearms aren'ta foolproof system.
You know, bear spray is reallysusceptible to, high winds, um, freezing
temperatures and things like that, uh,foliage or other obstructions that, you
(21:25):
know, a bullet might penetrate through,but bear spray might get hung up on.
and bears move extremelyfast when they charge.
So the ability to, Puff out thissmoke or this cone of, uh, bear spray.
there have been many bear in attackswhere the bears have run through it
without really getting it into themucus membranes and things like that,
where it needs to get to be effective.
Mm.
(21:45):
Okay.
I like what you just said
said
that
that.
both can be, and, and I'm, I'm, Imight misstate this, but essentially
you said they're both, the handgunand the bear spray are both useful
deterrents, neither is, and correctme on this neither's a guarantee.
(22:05):
Yeah, that
is absolutely correct.
And I think that's important forpeople to understand whether somebody
does have bear spray or a handgun.
When you are facing down a bear that'sgonna charge you, neither is a guarantee.
A hundred percent correct.
I can't stress that enough with, youknow, with proper training, proper
equipment, and proper practices.
(22:27):
You know, you can increase yourodds in being able to react and
hopefully, you know, deter or.
and an attack or something like that, butthere's never any guarantees, um, in life.
and that's just one of thosethings, you know, when you go out
in the wild, like we talked about,you're taking on an inherent risk.
You live in a dangerous world and Imean, you're just as likely driving to
Smith's to get hit in a car and have acar accident, which is statistically high.
(22:49):
like, you know, you might fall off ofa cliff in Grand Teton National Park,
or, you know, get attacked by bear.
Hmm.
I want to go back to the bullets.
but also
I'm very curious to learn of withsomebody having a handgun where
they should shoot the bear, becausethat's gotta be important as
well.
And before we get intothat, we're gonna take
(23:10):
a quick break to get a word fromone of our sponsors, and then
we're gonna come back, Tony, andhave you answer those questions.
Tony, welcome
back.
I have
a very
curious mind, so I'm
really enjoying this conversation,so I appreciate you doing all the
research to write your book, handgunSelection for Grizzly Beer Defense.
Let's start off
(23:30):
with
with
if somebody has a
handgun,
Where would you want to shoot the bear?
Where should the contact point be?
great question.
So, um, really if you're trying toimmediately stop a dangerous bear attack,
which is the only time that you should be,you know, shooting at a bear, um, unless
you're hunting or something like that,in a place where it's legal to do so,
(23:52):
that it's important forpeople to understand
that.
Yeah, definitely.
Um, yeah, cuz so many people, of getthis built up illusion in their head
of like, oh my gosh, if I see a bear,you know, like, that's the end of it.
I gotta, you know, shoot this thing.
It's like, no, they're, they're out thereliving their life doing their thing,
you know, and you're in their space justas much as they might be in your space.
So, yeah, I wouldn't everrecommend like, initiating
violence on something like that.
however, if you wanna, you know,respond to some type of violence
(24:15):
in an effective way and immediatelystop, The chance of you getting hurt.
Um, you're really looking at hittingand disabling kind of two main areas.
One would be, brainstem and the associatedkind of control center of that organism.
So, uh, looking for, the base of thebrain, or even just the brain in general.
And then the sp uh, the spinal cord.
So the central nervous system whereall those bundles of nerves run through
(24:36):
and kind of coordinate the rest ofthe, you know, muscular abilities.
Mm-hmm.
now if they're.
usually, you know, if a bear ischarging directly at you, I would
actually recommend, like the nose isa pretty good place to aim and that's
gonna afford you a couple advantages.
One is that, um, if you are standingand a bear is charging, you're probably
gonna be a little taller them than them.
So as they come closer to you, yourperspective angle, um, the closer they
(24:59):
get, the lower you're gonna have to aim inrelation to the speed they're running at.
Um, so that you can track theirnose as it comes towards you.
So let's say you shoot and youare lagging behind their movement
cuz they're extremely fast.
Um, if you shoot toward the nose andyou miss in a vertical line behind
them in their trailing, uh, youstill have a good chance to hit the
skull, the spine, like that that can.
You know, really disable and incapacitateso that you can get away safely.
(25:23):
reason, the nose is sucha good place to aim.
Like let's say you took a knee and youwere on the same level and they were
charging at you, aiming at the nose,inside of their kind of nasal cavity.
Um, there's a lot of cartilageand soft tissue and there's
not much bone in the way.
There's like this big funnel thatgoes straight back toward their brain.
so that's a good place to aim becauseyou're dealing with not a lot of
(25:43):
obstructions in the way, in termsof thick bones and stuff like that,
and you're getting a straight linepath toward the central nervous
system, the brainstem, things likethat, you wanna be, uh, looking.
To hit and disable.
Um, the other thing that is, uh,good to know is weight-bearing bones.
So if you hit a shoulder or, uh, youknow, a big arm mo bone or something
like that, or the back of the spine orsomething, you can definitely disable or
(26:06):
mame their ability, uh, to move and gettoward you, which might afford you more
time to get away or lay more shots ontarget or, you know, do something else
that can help you react and stay safe.
Um, the one thing you're not really aimingfor, Is, lungs and their heart like you
would typically if you were hunting.
those are like the vitals that we'realways looking to get an ethical shot on.
this is very different from a huntingscenario, though it's more of a defensive
(26:27):
scenario where in hunting you mightshoot the lungs of the heart and the
animal will not know what happened.
Uh, move for a little bit, thinkit got old really fast and die.
and that usually can take anywhere from20 seconds to much longer depending
on, how that tissue is damaged.
So, 20 seconds is a long timeif you do get an a hit or a
(26:48):
shot, but you still get maimed.
You know, like you may for all, youknow, end the bear's life, but not after.
You may have already lost your own abilityto defend yourself or lost your own life.
and probably importantfor people to understand
If you are in an area
area
where a bear
comes at you aggressively
and you shoot it, it would be investigated
(27:09):
by.
the area
game and fish department.
Absolutely.
Um, I've heard some ex law enforcementfrom California who say that the game and
fish out here takes, you know, grizzlybear and like animal, um, interactions,
lethal interactions like that moreseriously than a lot of the homicides
that they investigated in cities.
So, um, yeah, you candefinitely believe that.
(27:29):
Um, there's gonna be a lot ofinvestigation going into it and,
you know, that's where it's.
All the, all the more so importantthat, you know, you take ownership and
accountability for any actions you do.
Like if you're gonna carry anyform of, uh, defensive means
like that, that there's aresponsibility that goes with that.
And I think it's important peoplekind of understand and appreciate
that aspect.
Thank you for, for mentioningthe responsibility side of it
(27:51):
because this is not a carlan.
Much opportunity shoot at a bear or,I mean, ultimately it's licensing,
know, for, for hunting purposes.
But if you're, what is the regulation
if
that somebody would need toprove that they were threatened?
you know, it's really tough.
(28:12):
Most of the ways that, uh, lawsdense self-defense laws are
written throughout the country indifferent states, um, are tough.
You usually gotta be alawyer to understand them.
but my general non-lawyer opinion, andthe way that I've kind of figured this
out after talking to like a previous,uh, fish and Game commissioner, and
previous, uh, prosecutor, um, isthat, If a bear is charging at you,
(28:32):
whether it's a bluff charge or, areal charge is not necessarily gonna
stop your self-defense going through.
You know, it's really hard in thecritical couple seconds that you
have that you, the average person,let alone an expert is really able
to tell, that is a bluff or not.
And there's definitely expertswho've worked with hundreds of bears
and not shot them knowing it was abluff charge and things like that.
But I'd say the average hiker orhunter or something like that, may
(28:54):
not have the experienced eye of ahundred or more bear encounters.
. so yeah, if they're charging at you closeproximity and kind of making aggressive
notions, uh, so chomping, smackingtheir, uh, jaws and things like that,
um, that doesn't necessarily give you theOkay, but that's one of the things that
you could include is you are defendingyour story, um, is like, Hey, I saw
(29:15):
this aggressive exhibited behavior.
I saw this or whatever.
I felt like this, this is what happened.
Basically, what it boils down tois, can you explain this so that.
, anybody who was put in that sameposition could say, you know what, that
is totally reasonable to have utilizedself-defense because of the circumstances.
and it's, it's a supercomplicated question.
(29:36):
It really is tough.
And whatever choices youmake, you know, those are the
choices we have to live with.
Whether you're a high risk ski line goingdown a, you know, and you're looking at
these things like there's no guaranteedline of safety . Um, but you're making
the best decisions you can and hoping,you know, based off of what you see,
that you're making the right decisions.
So true.
It's all about that moment in time andusing all the information you can process.
(29:59):
And is this a good decision or not?
Yeah, and I mean, that's just thereality we live in and it's one of
the things that makes it wonderful.
Yeah.
I think what is important
about making decisions iswhatever decision a person
makes, you need to own it.
Yeah, I think accountabilityis, uh, a huge, hugely valuable,
(30:19):
characteristic and quality that weshould strive more as for, as a society.
But more and more these days, it kindof seems like that's the opposite.
So I'm a big fan of accountabilityand like really just own it.
better to learn from your mistakes andlearn from the processes you do so that
you can be a
better person in the end.
That's right.
And, and I teach my kids that all
the time and it's,
and, and it's not as thoughthey learn it right away,
(30:39):
but
hey,
you made a mistake Youdidn't make the right
to choice something happened,but at least own it.
Admit it.
I'm more proud of you byyou telling the truth.
And owning, what you did than youfeeling as though, it was bad,
um, and you shouldn't own it.
And not all I said, sometimes you might bein trouble, but sometimes you might not.
(31:02):
Just telling the truth
alone, knowing that you didsomething that you were not
supposed to do is good enough.
Yeah.
And, uh, those little things compound.
You know, there's these decisionswhere you might not own something,
and then later on in life, you know,you kind of gave yourself a green
light of that behavior being okay.
You got away with it and.
It doesn't, you know, like injuries,they don't really affect you when
(31:23):
you're younger, but then you reallystart to feel 'em when you're older.
This is kind of a mental injury whereyou've given yourself this, okay.
And then you have this kind ofsulking little feeling about it.
Um, so I think it's important.
It's hard to do, but it really doeshelp you develop into a stronger person.
For sure.
Now, let's go back to thebullets, the, the ammunition.
Yeah,
Again,
I'm, I don't know a lot about,
(31:45):
I if you told me talking aboutone bullet versus another.
I, I, don't know what that means.
So I'm curious to know in a descriptor.
What would it look like and howis it different of what you have?
Like what's in your Glock of whythat would be an effective, form
of ammunition versus just if I wentover to the sporting goods store and
(32:06):
bought, you know, some standard rounds.
Yeah, definitely.
Um, so you can bracelet basicallybreak it down into a couple things.
There's training ammunition, which isusually a full metal jacket, so it's
like a copper jacket on the outside.
Copper's a relatively hard metal, andthen inside is a bunch of soft lead.
relatively inexpensive to make andit's great for punching holes and paper
or hitting steel targets as you'retraining and practicing with a firearm.
(32:28):
Then there is hollow pointor soft point ammunition.
These are kind of designed,uh, soft point for hunting.
So as if you imagine like throwing atomato at something versus a golf ball.
, if you throw a tomato atit, it's a lot softer.
So it's gonna hit and splat anddeliver the, the force of the
impact into whatever it hits.
versus if you threw a golf ball at,you know, a pillow or something, um,
(32:50):
it's gonna hit a specific spot andhave more energy focused in that place.
When you talk about bullets though,the difference is the soft point
is going to hit something anddistribute kinetic energy to.
That point via like spread and impact.
whereas a full metal jacket or some othertype of penetrating bullet might hit.
But instead of delivering a large blowin energy, it's gonna actually maintain
(33:13):
its energy, not transfer it to thetarget or whatever it hits, and possibly
continue through the medium that it'straveling through and go through the
other side or something like that.
Hollowpoint ammunitionworks very similar to.
Hunting ammunition, um, where insteadof a soft point, there's a cavity on the
inside of the front of the projectile.
So that cavity catcheswhatever it in contact with.
(33:34):
Much like a parachute catches air,it's gonna open up and then deliver.
As that, uh, projectile gets larger,it's gonna catch more mass and
deliver a bigger thud or a more impactand not penetrate nearly as far.
So the reason you don't want any of theaforementioned for bear defense, is that
typically, uh, if you're, especiallyif you're doing like handguns, uh, for
defensive purposes, you want somethingthat's gonna penetrate as far as
(33:57):
possible because bears, moose, largebodied mammals like that, there're much.
Thicker in terms of the amountof mass they have on them.
Their bones are thicker, their height isthicker, their tissues are much denser.
it's really like a density and thicknessdeal where you have to get through a lot
more to reach those, valuable parts oftheir body that work to coordinate 'em.
(34:17):
So central nervous system, brain, thingslike that, that might incapacitate them.
what you would want for.
handguns would be like a hard cast alloy.
So it's a, it's a lead alloy that'smuch harder than normal soft lead.
and then if you didn't have somethinglike that, the other option would
typically be, uh, like a solid copperprojectile or a solid brass projectile.
And there's some weird goofy laws from.
(34:39):
Terrible Hollywood stuff thatyou can't usually have like
brass projectiles anymore.
so, uh, copper would bedefinitely your next best bet.
Again, a really hard metal.
both of those in a profile thatis advantageous for penetration.
So if you think of, um,
bullet that's pointy, fat in the back,kind of like a boat, if that boat hits
something, Like a buoy, it's gonna shiftits direction away from that, uh, unless
(35:01):
you hit it directly on the point, butmore than likely it's gonna encounter
something and shift its trajectory.
What you want is something that's gonnacrush through the buoy and continue
its straightforward path, so thatyou're not getting deflected off of
bones and things like that toward theobjective of the central nervous system.
So, a flat nose instead of apointy nose or a round nose,
that flat nose helps it, keep.
More of its weight forward instead of allthe weight in the back being tail heavy.
(35:25):
and then that flat nose withthose kind of hard edges on.
There's a term called me plat, whichis like the flat face of a bullet.
The hard edges on that me plat aregoing to allow it to cut and crush its
way through things instead of beingkind of like split off of its path.
Um, and then again, you would wantsomething that was heavy for caliber.
Uh, one of the things to note withthat is, know, if your gun like a 10
(35:46):
millimeter usually shoots projectilesroughly in the like 100 and.
60 to 220, uh, grain weight class.
Um, so the projectile itself, howmuch it weighs, um, you would want
something heavy for caliber, so onthe 200 grain or 220 grain as opposed
to the 180 or the one 60 grain.
that I know is probably gonna soundreally technical for a lot of people
(36:06):
who might not be super involved.
Um, but there's about 15.3 grainsin a gram, or grams in a grain.
Grains in a gram.
Yeah.
even.
It's confusing on this
end.
you're the one that
knows, I never knew
about, you know, the ammunition,but you explaining it the way you
did it com it makes a lot of sense.
(36:27):
I just always remember hearinghollow points or do the most damage,
but everything has a purpose.
Yeah.
So purpose made ammunition,absolutely hollow points.
Um, if you were thinking of humandefense protecting yourself against
another violent human or somethinglike that, um, hollow points are
extremely safe, in terms of not overpenetrating, going through somebody that.
You know, you might be shootingat that's attacking you and
(36:49):
causing damage on the other side.
Or if you miss an astray, hits a wall,it's gonna deliver more energy to
the wall and have less past the wall.
Um, so you would see all like lawenforcement typically all, you
know, people who are concealedcarrying a handgun for protection
or something, they would usuallyopt for hollowpoint ammunition.
does do more damage thanpoking a small hole.
However, um, When it comes to, you know,a bear handguns that have like hollowpoint
(37:12):
ammunition, um, they're gonna get caughtand stopped in the layers of hy and fat
and tissue before they reach those vitalareas, that they might have reached, uh,
on, you know, the average human in termsof how our body, our, our bodies are
designed and how, uh, our tissues are kindof formulated and our bone structure is.
Do you have a bear encounter storythat is really fascinating to hear
(37:37):
about, that you'd want to share with us?
you know, I don't have anycrazy cool, fascinating ones.
the one that I have that wasreally just interesting, I kind
of alluded to, uh, how archeryhunting goes and that sort of thing.
Um, but I had my friend, uh, wasbow hunting and I was calling,
so he was about, mm, you know,30, 40 yards ahead of me.
(37:57):
, we're playing the wind direction wherewhatever's coming toward us, so it's
gonna encounter him first, then me, butthey're not gonna catch our wind first.
Um, so I was back making somecalls, at that we had just kind
of seen some sign and knew therewas an elk, like in that zone.
so he's up front.
I'm in the back, I'm making somecalls and I have a tree in front
of me, so I can't really see him.
hindsight, I might have played thisa little differently, but this is
(38:19):
like very early in my hunting career.
As I'm making these calls, all of a suddenI hear, uh, him walking toward me going,
Hey, hey, Tony, this and that, whatever.
I'm like, Hey, be quiet.
There's, there's elk out here, you know?
goes, no, no, there's a bear up here.
And I was like, oh, gosh.
So I immediately, youknow, drew out my pistol.
it kind of like took us, uh, look aroundthe tree, got visual information, and
(38:40):
then from there I didn't, um, actuallysee that one, like in a close proximity.
It was already 70 yards away or so.
By the time he had to kindof made his way toward me.
but yeah, that was one of thosethings where he actually only had
his bear spray on him at that time.
And, um, again, early in the huntingcareer, you know, one of the first
elk hunts we ever went on out here.
and that was a kind ofan eye-opener for him.
He was like, all right, youknow what, like I'm definitely
(39:02):
gonna keep my pistol on me.
I'm not gonna be relying on someone else.
Especially when, you know, mostbear attacks are happening in
this like three second zone.
And I mean, if you're that faraway, that three seconds is gone
before any assistance is coming.
So, yeah, it was kind of an eye-openingthing for both of us in terms of, you
know, me making sure that people saythere's power in numbers, you know, bears
don't usually attack or are not as likelyto attack people in groups of 2, 3, 4.
(39:24):
Um, and you get better odds themore people you have with you.
Um, but when you're not in a directgroup, if you're not within 20
yards of each other or invisible,invisibility of each other, maybe a
bear doesn't see the other person.
that's when you.
Lose that effectiveness.
So it's important to make sure that, youknow, that's part of the thoughts that
go on, especially in the Elk cunning outhere by, you know, wonderful Jackson.
You end up being in a lot of grizzlybear country at the same time.
(39:47):
real quick, three second zone.
How much distance is between individualand a bear in a three second zone?
Gosh, it's so tough.
So the main types of attacks you dealwith is gonna be like surprise attacks.
So you're walking through some densebrush, you turn the corner and boom.
You're in the bear's bubble,you know, you're within 20 feet,
(40:09):
20 yards, whatever have you.
the bear realizes, Hey, I don't havetime to figure out what's going on.
I just need to start withaggression, get really violent.
And then from there I can discernwhether or not I'm safe or not.
so, you know, that might be a oneand a half second type of deal
where it's very close proximity.
Um, the other situations that youmight get in is where you have
like, a mom with cubs or they haveto enact some type of defensive.
(40:33):
behavior so that the Cubs are protected,or a food pile or something like that.
If they have some gut pile orsomething they've been eating on,
they're gonna wanna protect that as aresource so that they don't, you know,
lose their livelihood essentially.
those can typically, it's happen,happen from a little farther away.
So you're talking, you know, 50,80 yards, something like that.
most of the time, when you look at howfast bears can run, you know, anywhere
(40:54):
from 35 to potentially, you know, 45miles an hour or something like that,
which that's like way on the fast end, butmaybe circumstances align or something,
that cuts distance pretty quick.
You know, you're talking aboutcovering 50 yards or so and less
less than four seconds faster thanmost human football players are
gonna cover that distance for sure.
so that doesn't give you a lot oftime to react, like go through your.
Loop of figuring out everythingthat's going on, like you first have
(41:17):
to see it, then you have to decideon something, then you have to
actually act and react to that thing.
so yeah, I would say, if there was abear aggressive with within that 30
yard zone or, or potentially farther,you know, I might get ready and be
willing to, you know, take shotsif necessary or deploy some type of
defensive means if necessary, to, uh,to make sure that I'm staying safe or
(41:38):
the people in my party are staying safe.
Okay.
it's all
a matter of how fast that bear
is gonna
move.
It really is.
And that's one of the unknowns, youknow, I mean, there is comp, like you
said, there's no guarantee bear sprayor a handgun is gonna protect you.
You may well walk around a corner,a bear sees you, it attacks you,
it, it snaps your neck or something.
And that was it.
You never had time to react.
You never had time to grabout and deploy anything.
(41:58):
that is totally one of thepossibilities of being out in the woods.
Tony, we gotta wrap things up.
this has been fascinating.
I
with my curious mind, I could sit here
for hours asking you questions.
so appreciate you
taking the time.
To speak with me today, but also toproduce something that's usable for
(42:20):
people so they can make their owndecisions when they are recreating
and enjoying the wilderness outdoors.
how can people
reach out to you and alsowhere is your book available?
yeah, my book is on Amazon.
You can search, uh, handgun selectionfor Grizzly Bear Defense, and
you'll find it on there for sure.
Um, e-book and paperback.
(42:41):
For, for reaching me, contacting me.
Um, I'm happy to be contacted throughthe Jacksonville shooting experience.
Um, if you want, I'd be happy to,you know, throw my email or something
in the, in the show notes if youwanted to, you know, give a, a
personal plug or anything like that.
definitely you guys can,
uh, find me around.
Okay.
Well thank you Tony.
I really appreciate your.
Time in, in this informative conversationand responsible use of handguns
(43:08):
and for people to be educated andknowledgeable about, what they need for
when they go out into the backcountry.
Great.
It's a pleasure being on.
Thanks for having me, I really
appreciate it.
You're welcome.
Great to see you, Tony.
Appreciate it.
To learn more about Tony Molinaand his book, visit the jackson hole
connection.com, episode number 243.
(43:31):
Thank you everybody for listeningtoday Get out and share this
podcast with your friends andfamilies, Instagram and Facebook.
If you know, if somebody would liketo be a guest, send us their name.
We'd love to have.
Take care everybody.
Look forward to seeing you backhere for the next episode of
the Jackson Hole Connection.
You are tuned into the Jackson hole,connection, sharing, fascinating stories
of people connected to Jackson Hole.
I am truly grateful for each ofyou for tuning in today and support
for this podcast comes from:
I'll begin today's episode with alittle quote from Tick, not hod.
Because of your smile, youmake life more beautiful and
(00:23):
welcome to episode number 243.
My guest today is Tony Molina, an author,outdoorsman, and a guy who knows the
importance of being thorough with researchand being prepared in the outdoors.
Tony's book, handgun Selection forGrizzly Bear Defense provides information
(00:43):
for people to make a decision aboutwhat is their best defense when they're
traveling around in bear country.
And guess what?
We live in bear country.
I really did learn a ton about caringhandguns while in the back country.
And some perspectives of whyhaving a handgun over bear spray
or even having both are important.
(01:03):
for you to decide of whatyou feel is best for you.
Tony presents his well-researchedinformation in a method, which I
follow and appreciate now is extremelyengaged with the conversation that
Tony was sharing with us today.
Tony, welcome to theJackson Hole Connection.
I'm so honored and delighted
that you have some Time to share withme and all the listeners out there.
(01:27):
in the podcasting world.
so thank you.
Nice to see you today.
Likewise.
Thanks for having me on
welcome.
welcome.
So Tony, I began every
episode with people
sharing
How they
landed here in Jackson.
So where were you born?
Where
did you get to be dirty whenyou were growing up as a kid, if
you chose to be dirty as a kid.
(01:47):
I did.
and then how did you land
here in Jackson?
yeah, definitely.
So I grew up in Northern Californiain a place called Niece in Clear Lake,
uh, really small town, very rural area.
then my parents kind of split up.
I ended up spending time between thereand like the San Francisco Bay area.
. after I got outta school, decided totry and find my fit and I've always,
(02:08):
I've got my first 22 rifle when Iwas five, so shooting has always been
a really important part of my life.
and as the years progressed, itgot tougher and tougher to continue
that passion in California with lawsand restrictions and things like
that, and just general social views.
so I kind of did some gametesting down in, uh, Southern
California working at EA games.
. I did train in some hunting dogs and dokind of ranch work and mechanicing up
(02:31):
in Northern California by Mount Shasta.
eventually I started to realizelike instead of continuing selling
things and getting rid of gunparts, that would make me a felon.
Next year when the next lawpassed, I'd move somewhere where
uh, I would be welcomed andaccepted for what I like to do.
And I had three states.
It was Montana, Alaska, and Wyoming.
and everybody, you know,looked at me like I was crazy.
(02:52):
A lot of my friends are, you know,from, San Francisco area specifically.
They're like, what the heck?
Like, nobody lives out in those places.
What the heck would you do there?
And, um, you know, yeah, perfectfor me, . So I said, yeah, totally.
I was talking to one of my friends andI said, Hey, I'm moving out to Wyoming.
And he said, Hey, let's, I'll go with you.
Let's work at JacksonHole Mountain Resort.
And I was like, Okay, whatever.
(03:12):
Like it'll be my connection.
I'll go out there, I'll meet some people,I'll kind of network, see what I can find.
So I did, I moved out, uh, wasworking there for my first winter,
then ended up meeting a skier thatwas driving, coming down the path he
was looking for, you know, a ride.
And, uh, he was talking about how heneeded someone to work on a ranch.
So I worked on a ranch down in Big Piney.
for the next summer there.
(03:33):
Then came back to Jackson,worked the next winter.
And as I was trying to figure out,you know, the shooting sports and
how to kind of get involved andstuff like that, I had been a local
member at the Jacksonville Gun Club.
I went to this competition in thesummer of 2017, which was the Wyoming
top 100, which was trying to findlike the top 100 shooters in Wyoming.
there I met one of the coaches forthe Jackson Hole shooting experience.
(03:55):
And, As we were talking, Iwas like, Hey, what do you do?
You know, this and that, tryingto make some connections.
And he mentioned that he, part-time workedfor the Jackson Hole shooting experience
and I thought, man, if they could use aguy like him, they would love a guy like
me, . So, um, so I called up and, youknow, hit it off and then really just
hit it off, especially with Tim Brutin,who took me under his wing and kind of
taught me all the ropes of everything.
(04:16):
So, Yeah, I've been instructing withthem for the past, almost six years now.
And, um, just love it.
It's the best job I could ever have had.
and I'm really, really gratefulto Shepherd Humphreys and Lyncher.
They're the owners of the company,
Mm-hmm.
.Cool.
So I, I want to.
Rewind just a little bit.
I, I like detail.
So what year was that, that you moved outhere to work with your friend at J H M R
(04:40):
so that'd been 2015, uh, October of
2015.
Yep.
Okay.
And what was the ranch that you worked?
You said Pinedale?
Uh, yeah, so Pinedale and thenBig Piney is south of that.
So if you go past Daniel.
so yeah, it was kind ofbetween Daniel and Big Piney.
It was, uh, previously Cottonwood Ranch.
Um, nowadays I think it, theranch has been sold, um, but
it was a really cool ranch.
It was, you know, roughly around85,000 acres, uh, 23 miles long.
(05:03):
Really, really fun.
And I got to experience all 230 miles
of fence line.
Oh, I bet you did.
And
so
over time, you
started working for
Jackson Hole shooting experience, butI want to find out you went to that
competition.
Did you, were you a competitor?
Were you com participating?
(05:24):
Yes, I was participating.
so my car at the time, I had a repairneeded, so I was living basically by side
winders in town for those who know, isabout six miles from the shooting range.
So the competition was rifle and pistoland like a semi-automatic rifle and a
semi-automatic pistol, which is kindof the most common two gun setup.
So I was trying to figure outhow to get there in time and.
(05:46):
with my guns and stuff cuz I didn'thave my car . I decided to fold up
my AK 47, put it in my backpack, andset up my pistol and my holster and
everything, throw it in my backpack,bunch of ammo, first aid stuff, and
just bicycled on down to the range
And how did you do in the competition?
know, I did really well.
I actually got to, I didn't, uh, make itinto the top 100 because my attention, I'm
(06:08):
sure I would've . Um, my attention quicklyturned to the governor's match, which, uh,
at the time there was a firearms policyadvisor for the governor, uh, Nephi,
who kind of recruited me and is like,Hey, I'm trying to get people for this.
You look like you canreally handle your stuff.
Um, would you like to come out toCheyenne and do this competition?
and I was like, uh, yeah.
(06:28):
So that was in August.
and just blew my socks off.
I got to meet so many cool people.
Um, I performed great in there.
my setup was probably a little bitnot prime for the gaming aspects of
it, but gosh did I have so much fun.
It was really, really neat.
So, that was a valuable part
of my experience.
And in your industry, did thatopen up some doors for you?
(06:51):
you know, I met a lot of people, afew of them that I still talk to,
but, um, I wouldn't say that itopened any new doors that I pursued.
And one of the reasons is because I wasjust so enamored and fascinated with
the Jackson Hole shooting experience.
I mean, they have.
Their business just set in such agood way to really capture, you know,
experienced shooters, new shooters,and just help 'em get to new levels,
(07:14):
experience new things, all kinds of stuff.
So I'm really bummed I'm actuallygonna be moving this year.
I'm gonna be
leaving the company,uh, just for relocation.
yeah.
You know how the housing market goes here,so, yeah, but I mean, it's just, I kind
of didn't really look for any new doors,uh, or pursue 'em because I had such a
good fit with the shooting experience.
Mm-hmm.
, where do you mind, or do youknow where you're moving to?
(07:35):
Me and my wife were actually, um,getting a house in Eagle, Wisconsin.
Eagle,
Wisconsin.
Okay.
And you'll be able to still participatein your activities and your passion
of, of guns and shooting there?
Yep.
Yeah, I wanna, I really want tocontinue, you know, contributing to
the firearms community and pursuing mypassion of shooting sports and teaching.
(07:56):
so I, that was one of the criteria.
We had a long spreadsheet of acceptablestates we could move to for both
of our, you know, needs and wants.
And, uh, yeah, Wisconsindefinitely fit the bill for both
of us.
Sorry to see you leave andhave us lose somebody such as
yourself and our community.
now just so the listeners know, I havehad shepherd Humphrey with the Jackson
(08:17):
Hole shooting experience on the podcast.
I've known Shep for a whole bunch ofyears through different organizations
here in the community, and he's, he's a.
Really remarkable guy and fascinating.
He's written several booksand you have written a book,
and that's really why we're
talking today is because you have
written this book.
(08:38):
And, why don't you give me the title ofthe book that you have recently written?
So you're now,
uh, a firearms coach, but an author.
Correct.
The book is titled at HandgunSelection for Grizzly Bear Defense.
Uh, which is kind of a mouthful, butI wanted it to be catchy, and this
would be applicable to any large mammaldefense, whether you were getting
attacked by a mountain lion or amoose or something, which oftentimes,
(09:01):
you know, people find themselves inthese weird, unthinkable positions
to start off, have you ever
had a grizzly bear interaction?
interaction, yes, but not anylike violent or aggressive,
conflicts or anything like that.
Okay.
what was your interaction with the
grizzly beer?
Um, I'm an elk hunter out hereand an archery hunter as well.
(09:23):
So you get in really close quarters,in dense woods, where there might
not be the ability to signal yourpresence to bears, um, before
you're in their personal bubble.
. Mm-hmm.
So, I mean, yeah, anything from,you know, if I'm archery hunting
with my friend, I would be calling,they would be arch uh, like the head
position ahead of me or vice versa.
And uh, when you're out theredoing that calling like an elk, you
(09:44):
sound like a grizzly bear's meal.
So they will come in and inspectthat and sometimes, you know, you
can hear them coming towards you andthink like, oh man, there's an elk.
I better get ready.
And then you see this big patch of brownfor it come up and you go, oh my gosh.
Nope, that's not an
elk
that's not enough.
That's a bear.
No, and you know, fortunately, youknow, all bears are very different.
Just like all people are very different.
Um, they have differenttemperaments and personalities.
So as long as you and I largelyattribute my not having any aggressive
(10:08):
encounters, uh, specifically to my,like bear awareness and knowhow, Um,
as long as you are capable of, youknow, signaling and utilizing body
language and other things, to kind ofsignify, Hey, I'm not your normal food
source and I'm also not, uh, anythingthat you wanna chase down for prey.
bears tend to be pretty intelligentcreatures, so, um, luckily been banking
on that.
Well, I am happy to hear that you have
(10:30):
not had a, a bad interaction with a bearat this point, and with all your hunting.
Have you come across mountainlions because, Sometimes you don't
know a mountain lion's around,but they know you are around.
Most of the time you don't know they'rearound and they know you're around.
Um, so I haven't actually, um,seen any in close proximity.
like out in Wyoming, however,uh, I've definitely seen
(10:53):
fresh tracks and fresh sign.
I've been like, oh man, like all I knowthis could be, you know, an hour old.
And they were.
We didn't intersect our paths orthey've been hanging out and kind
of looking at me and scoping me out.
so yeah, it's just one of those thingswhere, you know, it helps to keep
your head on the swivel, be very awareof your surroundings, and I think
that's just a, an inherent part ofgoing out into, you know, the wild.
(11:13):
Very true and Tony, thank you
for,
stating that.
cuz whether somebody is out hunting
or
if they're out riding theirmountain bike or on a hike,
a walk,
whatever the case may be,
is important.
To keep your head on the swivel.
And
nowadays, when I've been
out hiking, I
now hear people playing their music ontheir phone or these portable speakers,
(11:37):
and I don't know if that's a detractor for
the animals, but for
me, I don't think people can really
hear their surroundings and reallyknow what is going on around them.
And I think that is a, anegative to, to people walking
around with their music playing.
Yeah, I think there's a, acost benefit analysis there.
You know, some folks might think like,Hey, if I'm playing this music kinda
(11:58):
like bare bells, it'll alert thingsto my presence as I'm going through.
the other thing is it doescloud your sensory, intake.
You know, so you might not hear or seea bear or a moose or something like that
and be able to react and give yourselfadequate distance to avoid a conflict.
Right.
Now let's get back to
the book.
that you wrote.
I'm really curious to know
(12:19):
how did you do
the research?
Yeah.
So, um, growing up my dad always had a,uh, kind of a bear defense handgun cuz
he was a big hunter and things like that.
He'd go to Idaho and allthese different places.
he always had a single action,44 Magnum Ruger, super Blackhawk.
And that was like growing up.
I knew that was the gun that could takedown a bear, you know, as a child I
didn't know a whole lot about that sortof thing except for what I was told.
(12:40):
Um, so he did give me that gun at a point.
and when I was out here, that was myfirst kind of go-to defensive line.
I had my bear spray, andthen I had that, um, handgun.
And, uh, as I kind of worked throughsome drills and things, as I learned
more from the shooting, uh, instructorside of things, um, and how to properly
prepare for, you know, an engagementor something like that, or some
defensive encounter, I realized thatThere was a want still, like I wanted
(13:03):
to be able to perform better, faster.
so I opted for trying out anothergun that I had, which was a revolver.
similar but it was a double actionso you could pull the trigger and it
would shoot each time versus caulkingthe hammer and shooting each time
where you had to cock the hammer.
Um, and then that led me into lookingat, you know, adequate calibers and
semi-automatics and all this stuff.
And a lot of this might not makesense to some listeners , cuz
there's a lot of information.
(13:23):
So I ended up doing this just massivedownload where I would look at everything
I could find online, everything Icould find in literature, books like,
uh, bear attacks, their Causes andAvoidance by Steven Herrero, government.
You know, bear spraythings and stuff like that.
Um, and then looking at what governmententities who often encounter or
have to encounter aggressive bearsutilize, you know, things like shotguns
with flus and high powered rifles.
(13:44):
Um, and that kind of just led me downthis huge rabbit hole where I was
researching everything I could find,anecdotal evidence, um, seeing what
worked, what didn't work, what gavepeople an edge for survivability.
Um, and that was where I endedup going to my final destination.
Where now, you know, Ihave a, a 10 millimeter.
Glock 20 handgun, which may makes sensefor some listeners, but that loaded with
(14:05):
an appropriate, ammunition, which wouldbe like a hard cast, flat nose projectile.
that is what you need.
You need a combination of like speed,momentum, penetration, um, in order to
achieve, you know, stopping an animal likea bear or moose or something like that.
I'm not a person that
is extremely knowledgeable about guns.
I grew up, my dad always had guns.
(14:25):
He collected 'em.
He'd take my brother and I outto the shooting range and we'd
shoot guns and we grew up withBB guns and pump B gun, BB guns.
I remember as a kid, I blew out the backwindow of one of my friends cars, and I
got, he got in a lot of trouble for that.
I believe that.
but you're talking about 44 Magnum.
I think my dad had a 44 Magnum revolver.
(14:48):
I remember seeing that thing.
It was like, Clint
East Woods, you know, dirty Hairies
44 Magnum.
Right.
That is the model 29.
Yep.
Okay.
So that's a
big gun
compared to the Glock.
So I'm guessing that what your dadhad was a pretty big gun compared
to what your research has found.
You don't need as a large of a gun, butyou need the right am ammunition for it.
(15:12):
Yeah, that's been the general consensus.
there's a lot of factors that go intoit, which is why I wrote the book on it
so that people can kind of grab all thisstuff and digest it at their own pace.
Um, but there's not a one size fitsall answer for everyone, but the
commonalities between it, whetheryou're gonna have a 44 magnum or a 10
millimeter, even, you know, some peoplewould take like a 38 special or a nine
millimeter out there, which would havepreviously been seen as like, No way.
(15:34):
That's way too small for a grizzly bear.
but with, you know, proper ammunition andthings like that, um, they are capable.
So it's a matter of finding what you canuse and then looking at the common, uh,
elements that cause everything to succeed.
And I think one of the things thatpeople get hung up on is getting the
most powerful handgun they can find.
you know, if you can't shoot it accuratelyor quickly, then it kind of doesn't
(15:56):
really set you up for success, like asmaller, more manageable handgun might.
Now
why don't you speak to that alittle bit and before, after you
speak to that, I also want to get into
the difference,
in the ammunition, but speak to
just because somebody has a
powerful gun,
it doesn't mean that they can unholster it quickly enough and accurately
(16:21):
shoot it at what they're aiming at.
Yeah.
Um, kind of like buying a guitar does notmake you a guitarist, , or a musician.
buying a gun doesn't make you anexcellent marksman or prepared for,
you know, a defensive encounter.
There's a lot of training that goesinto developing the skills that might
give you an edge and some type ofencounter where you'd need to deploy
like a handgun or something like that.
(16:41):
So, I guess.
To talk about, you know,getting huge weighty guns.
A lot of people will findsome inconveniences there,
especially if you look at thelightweight backpacking community.
they're trying to shapeounces wherever they can.
So they'll often, you know, think, oh,I'll get this big 44 Magnum at first,
cuz that's what everyone recommends.
Like, get a, you know, thehighest caliber you can.
That's the only thing that'sgonna stop a grizzly bear.
(17:01):
Um, and they get thishuge weighty gun and it's.
, it becomes more of an annoyance.
It's always in the way.
It's kind of heavy.
And then they decide, you know what?
I'm just gonna take mybear spray this time.
Like I don't need to take my guncuz I'm just going to this part
where I don't see bears usually.
Murphy's Law would dictate that that isprobably the time you're gonna see a bear.
So you know, if you're gonna buya defensive means and want to
keep it accessible, which SteveNelson up in Alaska, he teaches
a lot of the government servicesand just normal people in general.
(17:24):
For bear defense stuff, his kind of motto,one of the things he'll say in his courses
is if it's not deployable within threeseconds, you may as well not even have it.
So that's your bear spray in the bottomof your backpack, that's your handgun
in the bottom of your backpack or ashotgun that's over by the truck and
you're at camp or something like that.
that's why handguns, which are sort ofa compromise in terms of energy and.
Power that you might think to stop a bear.
(17:46):
the reason that people opt for them sofrequently is because they're convenient
to keep accessible and deployable withinthat kind of three second timeframe.
Um, which you talked aboutholsters and kind of being able
to get it out quickly and stuff.
Um, proper holsters and differentholster options are made for all
the different activities that youdo in the wild, whether you're a fly
fisherman waiting into the river.
or you know, you're on horseback ridingthrough the mountains on trails, um, or
(18:10):
you're an archery hunter trying to getclose to animals and things like that.
So, yeah, there's a lot of differentoptions and it takes some research to get
yourself acquainted with what option mightfit you best and give you that extra edge
or chance, you know, to defend yourself.
So, again, one of the things thatI really wanted to hit on in the
book was those different holsteroptions because it's gotten so widely
(18:32):
accessible now in terms of options,whereas, Five, 10 years ago, the amount
of options was extremely limited.
holsters weren't popular.
Uh, they didn't make adequate,like mid leg or drop leg holsters.
were all these clunky, goofy, tacticalthings that you would see on like
SWAT teams and stuff, but they weren'treally practical for people who were
out in, you know, rugged terrain,utilizing their body in extensive times.
(18:55):
Sounds like you have done the
research.
So if people are outdoor enthusiastsand they choose to carry a handgun
with them for, security protection,reasons that your book would help
them navigate a lot of that research,probably save a lot of time for them.
Yeah, that was, that was, uh, the maingoal was after I got to my conclusion
(19:16):
and figured out, what I was gonnatrust to give me an edge, I realized,
wow, if anyone else wants thisanswer or to get to the same answer
in their own way, um, they're gonnahave to go through all this research.
So what I did, I wanted to justwrite a foundational informational.
Book that could shorten the learninggap and then increase the learning
curve, like the accelerated learningcurve, so that they could spend their
(19:37):
valuable time and energy and getmore payback out of it or payout.
Mm-hmm.
now what about the bear spray?
it's great.
I mean, I carry it all the time.
will often say like, oh, you know, bearspray's more effective than guns, which
is not scientific or backed up by studies.
Even the gentleman who wrote thestudies, uh, with Steven Herrero,
which was Tom Smith, he kind oftwo studies and I'm gonna actually
(19:59):
just open something up here.
Yeah.
one is the efficacy of Bair.
Deterrent spray in Alaska.
And then the other was efficacy offirearms for bear deterrents in Alaska.
And these have wildly different criteriaand very, very different circumstances.
One of the main ones that I'll pointto is that, the majority of data on
bear spray research is done with bearsthat are not actively aggressive.
(20:20):
So not charging, not causing, you know,Injury or things like that, not causing
a threat to life and stuff like that.
These are bears that arecurious, garbage feeding, moving
around and stuff like that.
And it's wildly effectivefor those types of scenarios.
You know, it's kind of like gettingsprayed in the face by a skunk.
It's an evolutionary thing, they arekind of hardwired to know, like, oh,
I don't mess with things that sprayme with these weird, you know, toxins
(20:41):
or chemicals or things like that.
and then when you look at the efficacyof firearms for fair defense in
Alaska, um, that study was largelydone on, instances where there was
some threat to life or property.
And those are verydifferent circumstances.
So, even the author, Smith.
He said that some people do comparethese two studies, but there was never
a thought on the authors of comparingthem cuz they're wildly different.
(21:03):
So, when people say bear spray is 98%effective, there's a big asterisk next
to that on, you know, how effectiveis it in aggressive bear encounters.
Um, and then another thing to that isthere's, it's not a foolproof system.
Just like firearms aren'ta foolproof system.
You know, bear spray is reallysusceptible to, high winds, um, freezing
temperatures and things like that, uh,foliage or other obstructions that, you
(21:25):
know, a bullet might penetrate through,but bear spray might get hung up on.
and bears move extremelyfast when they charge.
So the ability to, Puff out thissmoke or this cone of, uh, bear spray.
there have been many bear in attackswhere the bears have run through it
without really getting it into themucus membranes and things like that,
where it needs to get to be effective.
Mm.
(21:45):
Okay.
I like what you just said
said
that
that.
both can be, and, and I'm, I'm, Imight misstate this, but essentially
you said they're both, the handgunand the bear spray are both useful
deterrents, neither is, and correctme on this neither's a guarantee.
(22:05):
Yeah, that
is absolutely correct.
And I think that's important forpeople to understand whether somebody
does have bear spray or a handgun.
When you are facing down a bear that'sgonna charge you, neither is a guarantee.
A hundred percent correct.
I can't stress that enough with, youknow, with proper training, proper
equipment, and proper practices.
(22:27):
You know, you can increase yourodds in being able to react and
hopefully, you know, deter or.
and an attack or something like that, butthere's never any guarantees, um, in life.
and that's just one of thosethings, you know, when you go out
in the wild, like we talked about,you're taking on an inherent risk.
You live in a dangerous world and Imean, you're just as likely driving to
Smith's to get hit in a car and have acar accident, which is statistically high.
(22:49):
like, you know, you might fall off ofa cliff in Grand Teton National Park,
or, you know, get attacked by bear.
Hmm.
I want to go back to the bullets.
but also
I'm very curious to learn of withsomebody having a handgun where
they should shoot the bear, becausethat's gotta be important as
well.
And before we get intothat, we're gonna take
(23:10):
a quick break to get a word fromone of our sponsors, and then
we're gonna come back, Tony, andhave you answer those questions.
Tony, welcome
back.
I have
a very
curious mind, so I'm
really enjoying this conversation,so I appreciate you doing all the
research to write your book, handgunSelection for Grizzly Beer Defense.
Let's start off
(23:30):
with
with
if somebody has a
handgun,
Where would you want to shoot the bear?
Where should the contact point be?
great question.
So, um, really if you're trying toimmediately stop a dangerous bear attack,
which is the only time that you should be,you know, shooting at a bear, um, unless
you're hunting or something like that,in a place where it's legal to do so,
(23:52):
that it's important forpeople to understand
that.
Yeah, definitely.
Um, yeah, cuz so many people, of getthis built up illusion in their head
of like, oh my gosh, if I see a bear,you know, like, that's the end of it.
I gotta, you know, shoot this thing.
It's like, no, they're, they're out thereliving their life doing their thing,
you know, and you're in their space justas much as they might be in your space.
So, yeah, I wouldn't everrecommend like, initiating
violence on something like that.
however, if you wanna, you know,respond to some type of violence
(24:15):
in an effective way and immediatelystop, The chance of you getting hurt.
Um, you're really looking at hittingand disabling kind of two main areas.
One would be, brainstem and the associatedkind of control center of that organism.
So, uh, looking for, the base of thebrain, or even just the brain in general.
And then the sp uh, the spinal cord.
So the central nervous system whereall those bundles of nerves run through
(24:36):
and kind of coordinate the rest ofthe, you know, muscular abilities.
Mm-hmm.
now if they're.
usually, you know, if a bear ischarging directly at you, I would
actually recommend, like the nose isa pretty good place to aim and that's
gonna afford you a couple advantages.
One is that, um, if you are standingand a bear is charging, you're probably
gonna be a little taller them than them.
So as they come closer to you, yourperspective angle, um, the closer they
(24:59):
get, the lower you're gonna have to aim inrelation to the speed they're running at.
Um, so that you can track theirnose as it comes towards you.
So let's say you shoot and youare lagging behind their movement
cuz they're extremely fast.
Um, if you shoot toward the nose andyou miss in a vertical line behind
them in their trailing, uh, youstill have a good chance to hit the
skull, the spine, like that that can.
You know, really disable and incapacitateso that you can get away safely.
(25:23):
reason, the nose is sucha good place to aim.
Like let's say you took a knee and youwere on the same level and they were
charging at you, aiming at the nose,inside of their kind of nasal cavity.
Um, there's a lot of cartilageand soft tissue and there's
not much bone in the way.
There's like this big funnel thatgoes straight back toward their brain.
so that's a good place to aim becauseyou're dealing with not a lot of
(25:43):
obstructions in the way, in termsof thick bones and stuff like that,
and you're getting a straight linepath toward the central nervous
system, the brainstem, things likethat, you wanna be, uh, looking.
To hit and disable.
Um, the other thing that is, uh,good to know is weight-bearing bones.
So if you hit a shoulder or, uh, youknow, a big arm mo bone or something
like that, or the back of the spine orsomething, you can definitely disable or
(26:06):
mame their ability, uh, to move and gettoward you, which might afford you more
time to get away or lay more shots ontarget or, you know, do something else
that can help you react and stay safe.
Um, the one thing you're not really aimingfor, Is, lungs and their heart like you
would typically if you were hunting.
those are like the vitals that we'realways looking to get an ethical shot on.
this is very different from a huntingscenario, though it's more of a defensive
(26:27):
scenario where in hunting you mightshoot the lungs of the heart and the
animal will not know what happened.
Uh, move for a little bit, thinkit got old really fast and die.
and that usually can take anywhere from20 seconds to much longer depending
on, how that tissue is damaged.
So, 20 seconds is a long timeif you do get an a hit or a
(26:48):
shot, but you still get maimed.
You know, like you may for all, youknow, end the bear's life, but not after.
You may have already lost your own abilityto defend yourself or lost your own life.
and probably importantfor people to understand
If you are in an area
area
where a bear
comes at you aggressively
and you shoot it, it would be investigated
(27:09):
by.
the area
game and fish department.
Absolutely.
Um, I've heard some ex law enforcementfrom California who say that the game and
fish out here takes, you know, grizzlybear and like animal, um, interactions,
lethal interactions like that moreseriously than a lot of the homicides
that they investigated in cities.
So, um, yeah, you candefinitely believe that.
(27:29):
Um, there's gonna be a lot ofinvestigation going into it and,
you know, that's where it's.
All the, all the more so importantthat, you know, you take ownership and
accountability for any actions you do.
Like if you're gonna carry anyform of, uh, defensive means
like that, that there's aresponsibility that goes with that.
And I think it's important peoplekind of understand and appreciate
that aspect.
Thank you for, for mentioningthe responsibility side of it
(27:51):
because this is not a carlan.
Much opportunity shoot at a bear or,I mean, ultimately it's licensing,
know, for, for hunting purposes.
But if you're, what is the regulation
if
that somebody would need toprove that they were threatened?
you know, it's really tough.
(28:12):
Most of the ways that, uh, lawsdense self-defense laws are
written throughout the country indifferent states, um, are tough.
You usually gotta be alawyer to understand them.
but my general non-lawyer opinion, andthe way that I've kind of figured this
out after talking to like a previous,uh, fish and Game commissioner, and
previous, uh, prosecutor, um, isthat, If a bear is charging at you,
(28:32):
whether it's a bluff charge or, areal charge is not necessarily gonna
stop your self-defense going through.
You know, it's really hard in thecritical couple seconds that you
have that you, the average person,let alone an expert is really able
to tell, that is a bluff or not.
And there's definitely expertswho've worked with hundreds of bears
and not shot them knowing it was abluff charge and things like that.
But I'd say the average hiker orhunter or something like that, may
(28:54):
not have the experienced eye of ahundred or more bear encounters.
. so yeah, if they're charging at you closeproximity and kind of making aggressive
notions, uh, so chomping, smackingtheir, uh, jaws and things like that,
um, that doesn't necessarily give you theOkay, but that's one of the things that
you could include is you are defendingyour story, um, is like, Hey, I saw
(29:15):
this aggressive exhibited behavior.
I saw this or whatever.
I felt like this, this is what happened.
Basically, what it boils down tois, can you explain this so that.
, anybody who was put in that sameposition could say, you know what, that
is totally reasonable to have utilizedself-defense because of the circumstances.
and it's, it's a supercomplicated question.
(29:36):
It really is tough.
And whatever choices youmake, you know, those are the
choices we have to live with.
Whether you're a high risk ski line goingdown a, you know, and you're looking at
these things like there's no guaranteedline of safety . Um, but you're making
the best decisions you can and hoping,you know, based off of what you see,
that you're making the right decisions.
So true.
It's all about that moment in time andusing all the information you can process.
(29:59):
And is this a good decision or not?
Yeah, and I mean, that's just thereality we live in and it's one of
the things that makes it wonderful.
Yeah.
I think what is important
about making decisions iswhatever decision a person
makes, you need to own it.
Yeah, I think accountabilityis, uh, a huge, hugely valuable,
(30:19):
characteristic and quality that weshould strive more as for, as a society.
But more and more these days, it kindof seems like that's the opposite.
So I'm a big fan of accountabilityand like really just own it.
better to learn from your mistakes andlearn from the processes you do so that
you can be a
better person in the end.
That's right.
And, and I teach my kids that all
the time and it's,
and, and it's not as thoughthey learn it right away,
(30:39):
but
hey,
you made a mistake Youdidn't make the right
to choice something happened,but at least own it.
Admit it.
I'm more proud of you byyou telling the truth.
And owning, what you did than youfeeling as though, it was bad,
um, and you shouldn't own it.
And not all I said, sometimes you might bein trouble, but sometimes you might not.
(31:02):
Just telling the truth
alone, knowing that you didsomething that you were not
supposed to do is good enough.
Yeah.
And, uh, those little things compound.
You know, there's these decisionswhere you might not own something,
and then later on in life, you know,you kind of gave yourself a green
light of that behavior being okay.
You got away with it and.
It doesn't, you know, like injuries,they don't really affect you when
(31:23):
you're younger, but then you reallystart to feel 'em when you're older.
This is kind of a mental injury whereyou've given yourself this, okay.
And then you have this kind ofsulking little feeling about it.
Um, so I think it's important.
It's hard to do, but it really doeshelp you develop into a stronger person.
For sure.
Now, let's go back to thebullets, the, the ammunition.
Yeah,
Again,
I'm, I don't know a lot about,
(31:45):
I if you told me talking aboutone bullet versus another.
I, I, don't know what that means.
So I'm curious to know in a descriptor.
What would it look like and howis it different of what you have?
Like what's in your Glock of whythat would be an effective, form
of ammunition versus just if I wentover to the sporting goods store and
(32:06):
bought, you know, some standard rounds.
Yeah, definitely.
Um, so you can bracelet basicallybreak it down into a couple things.
There's training ammunition, which isusually a full metal jacket, so it's
like a copper jacket on the outside.
Copper's a relatively hard metal, andthen inside is a bunch of soft lead.
relatively inexpensive to make andit's great for punching holes and paper
or hitting steel targets as you'retraining and practicing with a firearm.
(32:28):
Then there is hollow pointor soft point ammunition.
These are kind of designed,uh, soft point for hunting.
So as if you imagine like throwing atomato at something versus a golf ball.
, if you throw a tomato atit, it's a lot softer.
So it's gonna hit and splat anddeliver the, the force of the
impact into whatever it hits.
versus if you threw a golf ball at,you know, a pillow or something, um,
(32:50):
it's gonna hit a specific spot andhave more energy focused in that place.
When you talk about bullets though,the difference is the soft point
is going to hit something anddistribute kinetic energy to.
That point via like spread and impact.
whereas a full metal jacket or some othertype of penetrating bullet might hit.
But instead of delivering a large blowin energy, it's gonna actually maintain
(33:13):
its energy, not transfer it to thetarget or whatever it hits, and possibly
continue through the medium that it'straveling through and go through the
other side or something like that.
Hollowpoint ammunitionworks very similar to.
Hunting ammunition, um, where insteadof a soft point, there's a cavity on the
inside of the front of the projectile.
So that cavity catcheswhatever it in contact with.
(33:34):
Much like a parachute catches air,it's gonna open up and then deliver.
As that, uh, projectile gets larger,it's gonna catch more mass and
deliver a bigger thud or a more impactand not penetrate nearly as far.
So the reason you don't want any of theaforementioned for bear defense, is that
typically, uh, if you're, especiallyif you're doing like handguns, uh, for
defensive purposes, you want somethingthat's gonna penetrate as far as
(33:57):
possible because bears, moose, largebodied mammals like that, there're much.
Thicker in terms of the amountof mass they have on them.
Their bones are thicker, their height isthicker, their tissues are much denser.
it's really like a density and thicknessdeal where you have to get through a lot
more to reach those, valuable parts oftheir body that work to coordinate 'em.
(34:17):
So central nervous system, brain, thingslike that, that might incapacitate them.
what you would want for.
handguns would be like a hard cast alloy.
So it's a, it's a lead alloy that'smuch harder than normal soft lead.
and then if you didn't have somethinglike that, the other option would
typically be, uh, like a solid copperprojectile or a solid brass projectile.
And there's some weird goofy laws from.
(34:39):
Terrible Hollywood stuff thatyou can't usually have like
brass projectiles anymore.
so, uh, copper would bedefinitely your next best bet.
Again, a really hard metal.
both of those in a profile thatis advantageous for penetration.
So if you think of, um,
bullet that's pointy, fat in the back,kind of like a boat, if that boat hits
something, Like a buoy, it's gonna shiftits direction away from that, uh, unless
(35:01):
you hit it directly on the point, butmore than likely it's gonna encounter
something and shift its trajectory.
What you want is something that's gonnacrush through the buoy and continue
its straightforward path, so thatyou're not getting deflected off of
bones and things like that toward theobjective of the central nervous system.
So, a flat nose instead of apointy nose or a round nose,
that flat nose helps it, keep.
More of its weight forward instead of allthe weight in the back being tail heavy.
(35:25):
and then that flat nose withthose kind of hard edges on.
There's a term called me plat, whichis like the flat face of a bullet.
The hard edges on that me plat aregoing to allow it to cut and crush its
way through things instead of beingkind of like split off of its path.
Um, and then again, you would wantsomething that was heavy for caliber.
Uh, one of the things to note withthat is, know, if your gun like a 10
(35:46):
millimeter usually shoots projectilesroughly in the like 100 and.
60 to 220, uh, grain weight class.
Um, so the projectile itself, howmuch it weighs, um, you would want
something heavy for caliber, so onthe 200 grain or 220 grain as opposed
to the 180 or the one 60 grain.
that I know is probably gonna soundreally technical for a lot of people
(36:06):
who might not be super involved.
Um, but there's about 15.3 grainsin a gram, or grams in a grain.
Grains in a gram.
Yeah.
even.
It's confusing on this
end.
you're the one that
knows, I never knew
about, you know, the ammunition,but you explaining it the way you
did it com it makes a lot of sense.
(36:27):
I just always remember hearinghollow points or do the most damage,
but everything has a purpose.
Yeah.
So purpose made ammunition,absolutely hollow points.
Um, if you were thinking of humandefense protecting yourself against
another violent human or somethinglike that, um, hollow points are
extremely safe, in terms of not overpenetrating, going through somebody that.
You know, you might be shootingat that's attacking you and
(36:49):
causing damage on the other side.
Or if you miss an astray, hits a wall,it's gonna deliver more energy to
the wall and have less past the wall.
Um, so you would see all like lawenforcement typically all, you
know, people who are concealedcarrying a handgun for protection
or something, they would usuallyopt for hollowpoint ammunition.
does do more damage thanpoking a small hole.
However, um, When it comes to, you know,a bear handguns that have like hollowpoint
(37:12):
ammunition, um, they're gonna get caughtand stopped in the layers of hy and fat
and tissue before they reach those vitalareas, that they might have reached, uh,
on, you know, the average human in termsof how our body, our, our bodies are
designed and how, uh, our tissues are kindof formulated and our bone structure is.
Do you have a bear encounter storythat is really fascinating to hear
(37:37):
about, that you'd want to share with us?
you know, I don't have anycrazy cool, fascinating ones.
the one that I have that wasreally just interesting, I kind
of alluded to, uh, how archeryhunting goes and that sort of thing.
Um, but I had my friend, uh, wasbow hunting and I was calling,
so he was about, mm, you know,30, 40 yards ahead of me.
(37:57):
, we're playing the wind direction wherewhatever's coming toward us, so it's
gonna encounter him first, then me, butthey're not gonna catch our wind first.
Um, so I was back making somecalls, at that we had just kind
of seen some sign and knew therewas an elk, like in that zone.
so he's up front.
I'm in the back, I'm making somecalls and I have a tree in front
of me, so I can't really see him.
hindsight, I might have played thisa little differently, but this is
(38:19):
like very early in my hunting career.
As I'm making these calls, all of a suddenI hear, uh, him walking toward me going,
Hey, hey, Tony, this and that, whatever.
I'm like, Hey, be quiet.
There's, there's elk out here, you know?
goes, no, no, there's a bear up here.
And I was like, oh, gosh.
So I immediately, youknow, drew out my pistol.
it kind of like took us, uh, look aroundthe tree, got visual information, and
(38:40):
then from there I didn't, um, actuallysee that one, like in a close proximity.
It was already 70 yards away or so.
By the time he had to kindof made his way toward me.
but yeah, that was one of thosethings where he actually only had
his bear spray on him at that time.
And, um, again, early in the huntingcareer, you know, one of the first
elk hunts we ever went on out here.
and that was a kind ofan eye-opener for him.
He was like, all right, youknow what, like I'm definitely
(39:02):
gonna keep my pistol on me.
I'm not gonna be relying on someone else.
Especially when, you know, mostbear attacks are happening in
this like three second zone.
And I mean, if you're that faraway, that three seconds is gone
before any assistance is coming.
So, yeah, it was kind of an eye-openingthing for both of us in terms of, you
know, me making sure that people saythere's power in numbers, you know, bears
don't usually attack or are not as likelyto attack people in groups of 2, 3, 4.
(39:24):
Um, and you get better odds themore people you have with you.
Um, but when you're not in a directgroup, if you're not within 20
yards of each other or invisible,invisibility of each other, maybe a
bear doesn't see the other person.
that's when you.
Lose that effectiveness.
So it's important to make sure that, youknow, that's part of the thoughts that
go on, especially in the Elk cunning outhere by, you know, wonderful Jackson.
You end up being in a lot of grizzlybear country at the same time.
(39:47):
real quick, three second zone.
How much distance is between individualand a bear in a three second zone?
Gosh, it's so tough.
So the main types of attacks you dealwith is gonna be like surprise attacks.
So you're walking through some densebrush, you turn the corner and boom.
You're in the bear's bubble,you know, you're within 20 feet,
(40:09):
20 yards, whatever have you.
the bear realizes, Hey, I don't havetime to figure out what's going on.
I just need to start withaggression, get really violent.
And then from there I can discernwhether or not I'm safe or not.
so, you know, that might be a oneand a half second type of deal
where it's very close proximity.
Um, the other situations that youmight get in is where you have
like, a mom with cubs or they haveto enact some type of defensive.
(40:33):
behavior so that the Cubs are protected,or a food pile or something like that.
If they have some gut pile orsomething they've been eating on,
they're gonna wanna protect that as aresource so that they don't, you know,
lose their livelihood essentially.
those can typically, it's happen,happen from a little farther away.
So you're talking, you know, 50,80 yards, something like that.
most of the time, when you look at howfast bears can run, you know, anywhere
(40:54):
from 35 to potentially, you know, 45miles an hour or something like that,
which that's like way on the fast end, butmaybe circumstances align or something,
that cuts distance pretty quick.
You know, you're talking aboutcovering 50 yards or so and less
less than four seconds faster thanmost human football players are
gonna cover that distance for sure.
so that doesn't give you a lot oftime to react, like go through your.
Loop of figuring out everythingthat's going on, like you first have
(41:17):
to see it, then you have to decideon something, then you have to
actually act and react to that thing.
so yeah, I would say, if there was abear aggressive with within that 30
yard zone or, or potentially farther,you know, I might get ready and be
willing to, you know, take shotsif necessary or deploy some type of
defensive means if necessary, to, uh,to make sure that I'm staying safe or
(41:38):
the people in my party are staying safe.
Okay.
it's all
a matter of how fast that bear
is gonna
move.
It really is.
And that's one of the unknowns, youknow, I mean, there is comp, like you
said, there's no guarantee bear sprayor a handgun is gonna protect you.
You may well walk around a corner,a bear sees you, it attacks you,
it, it snaps your neck or something.
And that was it.
You never had time to react.
You never had time to grabout and deploy anything.
(41:58):
that is totally one of thepossibilities of being out in the woods.
Tony, we gotta wrap things up.
this has been fascinating.
I
with my curious mind, I could sit here
for hours asking you questions.
so appreciate you
taking the time.
To speak with me today, but also toproduce something that's usable for
(42:20):
people so they can make their owndecisions when they are recreating
and enjoying the wilderness outdoors.
how can people
reach out to you and alsowhere is your book available?
yeah, my book is on Amazon.
You can search, uh, handgun selectionfor Grizzly Bear Defense, and
you'll find it on there for sure.
Um, e-book and paperback.
(42:41):
For, for reaching me, contacting me.
Um, I'm happy to be contacted throughthe Jacksonville shooting experience.
Um, if you want, I'd be happy to,you know, throw my email or something
in the, in the show notes if youwanted to, you know, give a, a
personal plug or anything like that.
definitely you guys can,
uh, find me around.
Okay.
Well thank you Tony.
I really appreciate your.
Time in, in this informative conversationand responsible use of handguns
(43:08):
and for people to be educated andknowledgeable about, what they need for
when they go out into the backcountry.
Great.
It's a pleasure being on.
Thanks for having me, I really
appreciate it.
You're welcome.
Great to see you, Tony.
Appreciate it.
To learn more about Tony Molinaand his book, visit the jackson hole
connection.com, episode number 243.
(43:31):
Thank you everybody for listeningtoday Get out and share this
podcast with your friends andfamilies, Instagram and Facebook.
If you know, if somebody would liketo be a guest, send us their name.
We'd love to have.
Take care everybody.
Look forward to seeing you backhere for the next episode of
the Jackson Hole Connection.
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