July 13, 2023 • 53 mins
Kylie Louise McCormick is a Wyoming based historian who was born and raised in Casper. On our 250th and final episode, what better way to conclude our journey than by delving into the rich history of Wyoming and exploring the lives of its remarkable figures?
In this episode Kylie and Stephan explore Wyoming’s past, discussing topics such as the experiences of religious minorities, the women’s suffrage movement, the significance of figures like Esther Morris and Grace Raymond Hebard, and the boom and bust cycle of the state. Kylie shares her personal experiences growing up Jewish in Wyoming and how she found her passion for researching and sharing stories about Wyoming's history. Stephan and Kylie also touch on the impact of jokes and the importance of teaching history in a way that fosters empathy and understanding. This final episode serves as a reminder to find joy, gratitude, and love in life and to engage in meaningful conversations with others.
To learn more about Kylie, visit KylieTheHistorian.com
We will miss sharing the amazing stories of the wonderful people connected to Jackson Hole. Thank you so much to our listeners and over 250 guests in the past 4 and a half years. Stephan would like to thank his wife and kids for always supporting him and also thank Michael Moeri who has been helping with the podcast on editing and marketing since the inception of the podcast back in September of 2018. To connect with Michael you can visit MichaelMoeri.com
Finally, we extend a special thank you to all our sponsors, particularly Teton County Solid Waste and Recycling, Jackson Hole Marketplace and The Liquor Store for their steadfast support throughout the years.
We hope to see you all out around town. Cheers….until next time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You are tuned into the Jackson hole,connection, sharing, fascinating stories
of people connected to Jackson Hole.
I am truly grateful for each ofyou for tuning in today and support
for this podcast comes from:
Over the past maybe year or so, I'vebeen beginning this podcast with a quote.
Well, today I begin this podcastfor a thank you to you all for
(00:26):
listening in, for sharing thispodcast with friends and family.
I am So grateful to Michael Moerifor being by my side for each of the
past 250 episodes, which has beenover the past four and a half years.
I could not have hosted thispodcast, the Jackson Hole Connection
each week without the commitmentand guidance of Michael Moeri.
(00:48):
And think about this folks.
Michael Edits and Markets the podcast.
Michael has been editing thispodcast since it started, so he
has listened to every single secondof every episode of this podcast.
Thank you, Michael.
Couldn't have done it without you.
And this is my last episode ofthe Jackson Hole connection.
(01:10):
Since I started this podcast, Inever thought I would be going 250
episodes, four and a half years.
I really didn't know whatI was gonna be doing.
but I kept it going and I'veloved speaking to every one of the
guests and I've added several itemsto my list of responsibilities.
And now it's time for me to takethat time which I allocate to the
(01:33):
podcast and allocate it to some ofthe other new commitments that I have.
I am joyful and sad to call this anend to the Jackson Hole connection.
And who knows?
Maybe with the added time that I have, I.
Might come up with a new podcast.
A new idea might come to life,and we'll just all have to wait
(01:53):
and see how the future unfolds.
Although this podcast is ending,the episodes are available for
listening, remembering, and sharing,please, if you take some things away
from, 250 episodes I've hosted.
I ask that you find joy,gratitude, and love in life.
Find the opportunity to speakto people with a curious mind.
(02:14):
You have a curious mindin the conversation.
Speak to somebody that you don't know.
Say hello to somebody you're walkingdown the street and find someone.
That you want to say I love you and sharewith them regularly that you love them.
I'm grateful to you all for supporting me.
And now today's episode, episode250, and my guest today is Kylie
(02:37):
McCormick, who is a Wyoming native.
Born and raised in Casper,Wyoming, lives in Casper, Wyoming.
Now Kylie has been building hercareer in Wyoming after returning
from graduate school in the east.
And Kylie is a historian and Iconnected very strongly with Kylie
cuz I'm a person who loves history,which you'll certainly hear today.
(03:00):
And I used to love listening to mygrandmother tell stories of growing
up on a farm in rural Arkansas.
Also listening to my grandfather'sstories of growing up during the
Great Depression in Mississippi.
history is alive within each of us,and Kylie has some stories of her own
for you today, some of which we hadsimilar experiences being raised in
(03:21):
small towns as a religious minority.
Collie also has several stories aboutWyoming history to share with you.
And one final note before we begin.
After recording, Kylie emailed me tolet me know she had a date incorrect
in the interview and the date wasincorrect for the Johnston County Wars.
(03:41):
the Johnston County Wars happenedin the 1880s, not the 1870s as
she had stated in the interview.
And here we go.
Highly welcome to theJackson Hole Connection.
It's delightful to be able tohave this opportunity to sit
down and talk to a historian.
I love history.
I so love history.
(04:02):
So thank you for your time today.
Yes.
Thank you so much forhaving me today, Stephen.
you're welcome.
So We start every episode with a littlebackground, some history about you.
So Kylie, where were you born and raised?
We haven't all grown up.
And, how did you land?
You don't live here in Jackson.
You live in another part of Wyoming.
(04:24):
You can share that with us, butI'm delighted that we get to talk.
So what is your historyand background to Wyoming?
I grew up in Casper and that'swhere I was born and raised.
And I wanted to get away from Wyomingwhen I, when I went to get my education.
So I went all the way to Virginiato a small all women's university
called Holland's university.
(04:45):
And then I.
Came back home for about a yearbefore leaving again to go to the
University of Nebraska Lincoln,where I earned my master's degree.
And then I bounced back home to Wyoming.
Wyoming has quite the, quite the draw.
I couldn't get it out of me.
And so I was very happy toend up back in Casper, and
that's, that's where I'm at now.
(05:07):
Awesome.
And how did your familyland in Casper, Wyoming?
That's a great question.
My mother, she grew up in St.
Joseph, Missouri.
And my father, he was born inValentine, Nebraska and raised
in North Platte, Nebraska.
And they met here in St.
Joseph going to collegetogether, um, in theater class.
(05:28):
And my father, they wereworking here in Missouri.
They had opened up the Bernstein familybakery again, and we're running that a
little bit with one of my aunts in town.
And my father couldn't, couldn'thandle the humidity, but it gave him
terrible headaches and everything else.
So his best man had actually movedout to Casper, Wyoming, and he said,
(05:50):
there's work out here in Wyoming.
And so my, my parents both cameand they fell in love and they.
They've been there ever since.
Oh,
beautiful.
and growing up in Wyoming, and in Casper,you grew up as, as a minority, as well.
So, and, and where I grew up inMississippi, I grew up as a minority.
(06:12):
I grew up in a town calledBrookhaven, Mississippi, and we were,
at that time, the Jewish family.
in in Brookhaven.
if anybody knew that anybody was Jewish,they just asked for the Abrams family.
the Jewish kids were my sister and I,we drove an hour every Sunday to go to
Sunday school to Jackson, Mississippi.
and my brother as well.
(06:34):
So it's my brother, my sister andI, so what was it like growing
up Jewish in Casper, Wyoming?
There is a small Jewish community inCasper, which I was really grateful for.
and some who were in similar age rangeas me, but no one in my, in my class.
And we would get to go to Cheyenneoccasionally for things like the Jewish
(06:57):
rendezvous, that the celebrating PennyWollin's book of the Jews in Wyoming,
that pictorial book, that's so well done.
I got to go there right aboutthe time I was 10 years old and
learned some traditional dances.
Whenever we'd come back home to,or back to my mother's home in St.
Joseph, we would get to, attendher synagogue that she grew up in.
(07:20):
And I'd be surrounded by my auntsand cousins, but in Casper, there
weren't, there weren't a lot of us.
And I was the only one inmy class always growing up.
I think that my classmatesenjoyed it because my mom would
come in and say, well, we've.
You're not just getting Christmas, you'regoing to hear the story of Hanukkah
too and incorporate some of that intoelementary school, which was really nice.
(07:43):
That's beautiful.
I'm glad that it was embraced and your momcame and did that, for, for your class.
And I went and spoke about Hanukkah tomy boys classes this past year, and,
and they were super stoked about it.
I think that's really important.
I will say that there was a shift,after my sister's classmates, I have
an older sister, just two years olderthan me, and it's just the two of us.
(08:06):
Um, but after her class,learned about the holocaust.
And then after my class learnedabout the holocaust, we both
experienced, a surge in anti semitismthat was really, really negative.
I think that that was, it's reallymade me think about how we, how we talk
about horrific events like genocidesand slavery and And things like that,
(08:30):
that we, we need to teach these in a waywhere it's not going to result in more
bigotry or more harassment and more antiSemitism, which is unfortunately what
my sister and I experienced after ourclassmates learned about the Holocaust,
which would have been right about,I'm forgetting if it was seventh or
ninth grade, it's, it's in junior high,I think when we, when we did that.
(08:53):
Do you feel comfortable sharing what weresome of those, actions or, how did you
feel as though you started feeling someanti Semitism after, the Holocaust was
taught?
Yes, definitely.
But, um, we, we vandalized with swastikas.
and a death threat.
(09:14):
We had, I've, I had people come up tome and, and call me, pardon, pardon
my language, um, call me a kike.
And I, I had a lot of my, my friendgroup just thought that it was funny.
I'm, I'm from the generation thatreally grew up with South Park.
And that idea of I can make funof everybody and I can make fun of
(09:36):
anything and nothing's off the table.
And so things like, thereweren't enough seats in the car.
And so one of my friendssaid, Oh, that's okay.
Kylie can ride in the ashtray.
And so things like that,that I had to deal with.
I've been happy to tell my friendsI'm not comfortable with this and
ending up losing most of my friendsfrom that was a hard experience in
high school, but an important one,it taught me how to stand up for
(09:59):
myself and to find my voice, I guess.
Thank you for sharing Kylie.
I didn't experience quitethat, level of anti Semitism,
but, I appreciate you sharing.
And yes, all of.
The bad things that happen in theworld to genocide around the world
in history should be taught andit's important that it's taught in a
(10:22):
fashion that it doesn't reinvigoratethe same type of negative feelings
so we don't, it doesn't happen again.
Right.
And I think that there, there is anattitude I know, I don't think that
Jackson Hole has quite the same problemsthat Casper has in terms of, um, we have
a very high youth suicide rate in Wyomingin general, but especially in places
(10:45):
like Casper, and I, I'm quick to linkthat to the sort of attitude of nothing
matters and I can make fun of anything.
And the, that jokey.
sort of approach to, horrific historythat I think I'm not sure if you're
familiar with, um, there's a wonderfulhistorian named Doris Bergen, and she
(11:08):
wrote a great book called A ConciseHistory of the Holocaust, and she opens
it with a metaphor of a house burningdown, and she says that several things
are required for a house to burn down.
You need the, environment that isconducive to it, that's dry, and She
says that World War Two created anenvironment that was conducive to this
(11:29):
violence and accepting that violence.
She said you need a spark to set it off.
She calls the Nazi regime andHitler that spark that set it off.
But you also need dry timber, and I thinkthat that dry timber is something that
we often overlook in our, in our cultureand our society, and that is that those
jokes that everybody thinks are justharmless that it's just a joke, and it's
(11:52):
not that big of a deal, but that theyactually are a big deal once we get those
other two elements in there that it makesit makes people more willing to accept.
the targeting and murder ofcertain groups of people.
And we need to be very mindful of ourdry timber in our, our communities
and work hard to clear it out.
Just like good, good forest management.
(12:15):
Indeed.
I appreciate that assimilation and,and the recommendation of the book.
I have not heard of Doris Bergen'sbook, so I will certainly look
that one up and, and Kylie.
You are a historian and you're aWyoming historian and that's where you
place a lot of your energy and time.
And again, as I said in theintroduction, I love history.
(12:40):
I grew up Around my grandparentswho my grandfather was born in 1904.
I think my grandmother's about1912 and just hearing just think
about, I mean, he died at 96 andthe changes that he saw growing up.
So I am thrilled.
to learn a little bit aboutWyoming history, what you have
(13:03):
been learning and teaching andtalking about throughout the state.
So, where do you want to begin?
What do you want to talk aboutfor some Wyoming history, Kylie?
Yes, definitely.
I I started digging into Wyoming historywhen I moved back home to Casper in
2017 and that is, was the, oh, whatis it, the 100 year anniversary of the
(13:27):
Wyoming state flag and at the time I wasstruggling a little bit with my health
and so I was substitute teaching tohave a little bit of flexibility there.
And I needed something because Iwas used to doing all of this great
research and digging into history.
And so I needed somethingto keep my mind active.
And I found myself in the NatronaCounty Library looking through
(13:50):
a book of Casper memories.
And there I found an anecdote by thewoman who designed our flag, Verna Keys.
spelled differently, but keys, keys, andshe was talking about designing this flag.
And she said that this woman namedGrace Raymond Hebert was responsible
for flipping the bison that originallythat she had the bison facing the other
(14:13):
way on our flag to represent freedom.
But Grace Hebert preferred itwith the bison hitched towards
the flagstaff as it flies today.
And that's, that's the way it was.
I had run into Grace T.
Bird while I was workingon my master's degree.
I was writing a article aboutwomen office holders in the West.
(14:34):
And wanted to write about Esther HobartMorris as the first woman justice
of a piece in South Pass City, butin order to write about Esther as a
judge, you have to first deal withthis controversy looming over her as to
whether or not she had anything to dowith bringing suffrage to the territory.
and influencing William Brightto introduce that bill in 1869.
(14:59):
I didn't want to dealwith that controversy.
I wanted to deal with her asan office holder and a judge.
And so I just sort of accepted what thosesecondary sources were telling me about
that story and what the standard, what,what the published standard is today on
woman's suffrage in Wyoming, which is,oh, she didn't even know William Bright
(15:22):
until after that legislative session.
She had nothing to do with it.
And Grace Raymond Hebert is theone who, who made it all up.
And she was a, a suffragist, desperatefor a heroine who needed to put
a woman into that oversized role.
So here I was running into Hubertagain, and she's changing our
flag, and I thought, well, justwho did this woman think she was?
(15:45):
And so I started digging into her files.
She has over 80 boxes at the AmericanHeritage Center down in Laramie.
And as of March of this year, I havephotographed all of her files that
have not been digitized and digginginto her correspondence and digging
into the work that she's done.
I've made some really incrediblediscoveries and have really found that
(16:10):
this woman has gotten quite a bad rapthat she doesn't, doesn't quite deserve.
Well, why does she get a badrap that she doesn't deserve?
Well, I think that she is, um, shewas a very powerful woman at a time
where not a lot of women had power andshe had a lot of institutional power
behind her and a lot of, um, supportfrom men and women in power in Wyoming.
(16:34):
And she, she accomplished a lot of things,but when you accomplish a lot of things,
you are also going to be stepping onsome toes and doing things that other
people disagree with and don't like.
And so she, she gained alittle bit of a reputation,
especially after she passed away.
Um, she's done wonderfulthings for our state.
(16:56):
She built up the university library fromabout 500 books to over 60, 000 books.
I mentioned, she's responsible for ushaving the state flag that we have.
She's the one who sponsored that contestwhile she was state regent of the
daughters of the American revolution.
And she wrote some of ourfirst child labor laws.
I, I often say that if there'sa pie baking in Wyoming,
(17:19):
she had her thumb in it.
what help people have a little bitof relevance here of this time frame
of when she was doing this work.
So when was she born?
When did she pass away?
When was this time frame thatshe was doing a lot of this work?
Yes, definitely.
She was born in 1861 in Iowa, and thenshe moved to Wyoming when she was 21
(17:42):
years old in 1882, and she was workingfor the general surveyor's office help as.
One of 42 draftsmen.
She wasn't the only woman inthe office, but she was the only
woman working as a draftsman.
So that means that she was basicallya cartographer that she is taking
the surveyors notes and drawingthe maps of what would become
(18:02):
the future state of Wyoming.
She was there in 1889 and sat on thecommittee when the first gathering of
Wyoming women got together to advocatefor women's suffrage in the state.
And she helped to draft their resolvesthat they were only going to elect
pro suffrage, delegates to theWyoming Constitutional Convention.
(18:25):
She was, then after the verge, shemoved to Laramie and became essential
in the building up and establishmentof our state university, sat on the
board of trustees for many years, andshe worked until her death in 1936.
And so it, it really started offas a hobby, me looking into the
(18:45):
keyboard and the flag and justsomething to keep myself interested.
And then in 2019, I decided that I wasgoing to do something with this, that my
friends at the National Historic TrailsInterpretive Center had asked me if I
had anything I had been researching thatI would be able to do a presentation on.
And I said, well, I've got this.
(19:05):
Thing on the Wyoming flagthat I've been working on.
So I put that together and thepresentation and I decided, you know,
what, what if I try and tour thisaround the state and what if I make some
greeting cards and some stickers whereI can sell them at my presentations?
And so I started offering it to libraries,um, Crook County up in Sundance and
(19:26):
Hewlett where some of the first librariesto hire me and bring me up there.
And it's been, A lot of fun.
I didn't know in the fall of 2019that COVID was about to happen as I
jumped in, full time and to beinga public speaker, but I'm been very
fortunate to be able to make it work.
And from what was originally designed.
(19:48):
So that our flag, when was thatofficially stated, Hey, this is our flag.
The contest for the flag was in thefall of 1916, and then it was signed
into law on January 31st, Oh, beautiful.
John Kendrick.
Okay.
And has our flag design changed in any waysince it being signed into law in 1917?
(20:15):
Yes, it has.
That is actually whenthe bison was changed.
If you look at the descriptionof the Wyoming flag, Grace
Hebert, she is responsible forthat technical description.
And you can definitely tellbecause of the word buffalo, the
designer of her flag, she alwaysreferred to the animal as a bison.
Um, except for in one speech thatshe gives in her hometown of Buffalo,
(20:38):
Wyoming, where she calls it our buffalo.
It's really sweet.
But she always calls it a bison, theirletters back and forth are a little, a
little tense and biting, especially, VernaKeyes, she was a young woman when she
designed the flag, she had just graduatedfrom the Art Institute of Chicago, and
she had won a contest, and so she wasfeeling like a very, a previous contest
(21:00):
with the Burlington Railroads, she wasfeeling, Like a very successful artist
and then here's this older woman comingin and changing her design and hey,
what right do you have to say over this?
but Grace Hebert, I think she,she just preferred that bison
with his nose into the wind.
Okay.
So she didn't include any kindof technical description as to
(21:21):
which direction the bison faces.
And so it was when the flags were first.
Manufactured for the two gentlemenresponsible for the law, John
Kendrick and Senator William Daly.
And Grace Hebert, she had Vernon makethe flag or manufacture the flags from
the Chicago, George Lauder company andthose flags were made as Hebert preferred
(21:48):
with the bison towards the staff.
I love it.
So, what other...
Notable items that you've learnedin your research about Wyoming
history that if we weren't talkingto you today, we wouldn't know
to put you on the spot.
Yes, well, I actually found Ihave something very exciting
(22:09):
to share with you actually.
Oh, please.
That is that in 1902, the manwho introduced the women's
suffrage bill for us, WilliamBright, he was in Washington, D.
C.
at a national women's suffrage convention.
For a pioneer evening and on stagefor all of these pioneer women who
(22:34):
had these oversized amazing rolesin the movement, including Susan B.
Anthony and Susan B.
Anthony actually recognized WilliamBright from the crowd, which is quite
remarkable all in its own right.
She, she knew him by sight and shecalled him up onto stage and asked him
to share why he introduced that billand he gave credit to Esther Morris.
(22:59):
He said that.
He knew next to nothing aboutwoman's suffrage before he met her
and that she loaded him down with itbefore he went to the legislature,
which are really key words there.
And so for me, this is definitiveevidence that Esther Morris, she is
the first successful advocate of alasting woman's suffrage in the United
(23:24):
States, and that we have it directfrom the man who introduced her.
the bill himself, that that's wherehis inspiration was coming from.
This also does mean that Esther Morris,a woman who is known to have been anti
slavery and to have, her neighborsand possibly she had helped out on
(23:45):
the Underground Railroad, according toCatherine Swim Cummings research and
her excellent book on Esther Morris.
That does mean that Esther Morris would beresponsible for making that really racist
argument that convinced William Bright.
he was a pro Southern, Democrat who wasagainst the 15th Amendment, which would
recognize Black men's right to vote.
(24:05):
And he, advocated against thatamendment in South Pass City.
And what, whenever he was asked aboutwhy he believed that women's suffrage was
just and something that needed to be done.
He said that it was because he believedhis wife and his mother were more
capable and intelligent than the,recently enfranchised black men.
(24:31):
Hmm.
And so that's, it's a good, um, balanceron Esther Morris that we get to, to really
look at her as, in a complete picture, I
think.
So help me unwind this a little bit.
William Bright, he, was he a U.
S.
Senator from Wyoming?
So he was a, he, he was born inVirginia and he did serve for
(24:53):
the Union during the Civil War.
And after the Civil War, likeseveral, several Southerners.
He came West.
In fact, Wyoming is full ofSoutherners in 1868 and 1869
when we are becoming a territory.
President Grant, he appointedan entirely Republican executive
branch for our new territory.
(25:15):
So our, everybody was Republicanat the, at the start and the
executive branch like Edward M.
Lee, who was a, Secretary for theSecretary of State, and they determined
that they were going to the 15thamendment had not yet been ratified.
And they said, but it's the lawof the land and the territories,
(25:35):
and we are going to live up to it.
And so they actually sent a militia toSouth Pass City to serve as a protection
for the black men who were there,about nine black men, I believe, were
able to vote in that 1869 election.
And the 1869 election was determiningwho was going to serve in our
(25:59):
first territorial legislature.
And it was entirely Democratic, thatthere were no Republicans elected.
And the Democrat Party, they werethe pro self, pro slavery, anti
15th Amendment party in 1869.
And that's who William Bright, he wasa, he was a Democrat who was elected to
that first territorial legislature andserved as president of the council, which,
(26:24):
would be the head of the Senate today.
Okay.
And then Esther Morris,you mentioned her with.
having involvement withunderground railroad.
Was she a Wyoming resident?
At the time she had moved to Wyoming.
She had been living,I believe in Illinois.
Think that's where she was coming from,but she had spent about eight months
(26:47):
actually in New York city, living withher niece Libby and Libby was working
as the private secretary to Susan B.
Anthony and Elizabeth CadyStanton while they published
the nation's first suffrage.
Newspaper called the revolutionand it's really wonderful.
A lot of those, if you look at thefirst edition of the revolution,
(27:09):
the lays out the platform ofthe women's rights movement.
And a lot of those platform planksare actually incorporated into the
laws that are passed by that firstterritorial legislature that they pass
a law where they recognize marriedwomen's right to hold property.
They recognize women's rights to theirchildren that today it's sort of weird
(27:32):
for us to think about, but in the 1800s, awoman had no rights to her, her children.
And so, if there was a divorceor her husband left her for some
reason, he had the entire legal claimover, over their children together.
So this recognized, womenbasically became independent.
(27:53):
We were no longer dependent on ourhusbands or fathers in Wyoming.
We were recognized as full citizens.
And they did some things that, You know,you've got these great ideals, but aren't
necessarily always followed through.
Um, one of those was an equal pay law in1869, for male teachers and women teachers
(28:14):
to be treated or to be paid the sameamount, which is really quite incredible.
And I think there were some communitieswho embraced that and did that.
And then there were other communities whosaid, oh, but the man needs to be bringing
home more money, obviously, and, and paytheir male teachers more despite that law.
I love this.
Thank you, Kylie.
We're going to take a quick break toget a word from one of our sponsors.
(28:36):
And then I want to learn more, alittle bit more about South pass.
Cause you've mentioned South passseveral times, so we'll be right back.
Oh, definitely.
Kylie.
Welcome back.
Learning so much about the importancethat Wyoming is a territory and its
citizens had on women's suffrage andequal rights for women, in the history
(29:00):
of our country is fascinating and severaltimes you've mentioned South Pass.
Give us some background about what SouthPass is, where it is, but what was the
significance and what is South Pass now?
Yes, definitely.
South Pass at the time would have beenone of the major cities in, in the area
(29:20):
that right about 18, In 1969, there wereabout 5, 000 people in Denver, Colorado,
and if you're looking at all of thesurrounding cities, um, Miners Delight
and Atlantic City and South Pass, you'relooking at roughly the same, a little
bit less of population in that area.
(29:40):
And so you can imagine thepeople who are moving there.
Yes, they thought that this might becomeone of the major American cities and in
the 1860s that there was a lot of hopefor Wyoming to grow these great big
cities like they were growing back east.
And the big draw to South Pass were,uh, were the mines, the, the gold mines.
(30:03):
There's the Clarissa mine that youcan still go and tour through today.
And there are some, I've, I've heardsome rumblings as I've been touring
around the state and sharing my research.
There have been some of my audiencemembers who tell me that there's
people out there who are stakingclaims today and who are still
(30:24):
out there trying to, to find gold.
South Pass City, it didnot go the way of Denver.
It did end up, um, going throughits bust and just about everybody
left the town except for one family.
The, oh, let me see if I canremember their names all of
a sudden ran away from me.
But
(30:47):
about one family stayed in, in SouthPass City, Janet Sherlock Smith.
And her sons, it was interesting.
She, she became blind in her old ageand one of her sons, he also lost
his eyesight in a mining accident.
And I often think about them as Southpass became this ghost town and.
Whether or not it would be easier tostay in a ghost town where you don't
(31:11):
have a lot of people, but you're veryfamiliar with it as a disabled person who
is losing your eyesight or who has lostyour eyesight, or if it would be better
to move to a larger city like Cheyenneor something like that, that would have
more people and more, more accessibility.
Um, it's just, it's interesting to meto think about the, the Janet Sherlock
(31:31):
Smith family and their decision to stay.
Do they still have
descendants?
I'm not sure about that.
possibly in the area.
I hope so.
They do have if you go and visit SouthPass today, it is a state park and I
recommend everybody go and check it out.
And a lot of buildingshave been reconstructed.
Esther Morris's cabin has beenreconstructed, but it is not
(31:54):
the floor plan of South Pass.
When she lived there, it's just a, astructure that is in the general area
where we believe her cabin was, butthere are some original buildings and
all of those original buildings areassociated with the Janet Sherlock Smith
family like their, their hotel and theirdry goods store and things like that.
(32:15):
Now,
if South Pass whenWyoming was a territory.
Was such a booming community.
How did it compare to howdid Cheyenne compare to it?
And then how did Cheyenne end up becomingthe state Capitol and correct me if
I'm wrong for a long time, Cheyennewas the largest populated community
(32:35):
and then it became Casper, but itcould have been some other places.
In between that were largerthan those places at some time.
Yes, definitely.
Well, Cheyenne, it'squite an interesting city.
I think that they definitely earnedthe nickname Magic City because one
day Cheyenne wasn't there and thenext day it was that the railroad came
(32:56):
through and pretty much instantaneously.
There was a city.
What's been fascinating to me isthat as I, as I've gotten more into
Wyoming history, um, it's sort of asimilar story as my academic career
where I, I was looking at slaveryand religion in the United States
and looking at Christianity and theimpacts of the Second Great Awakening.
(33:19):
And then I said, well, whatabout Jewish slaveholders?
And now I'm finding myself that I'm at thepoint in my research in Wyoming where I'm
saying, well, what about Jews in Wyoming?
What, what were Jewish people doing here?
And as I dig into the history of Cheyenne,Jewish people were there immediately.
They play a major role in, um,establishing the town councils,
(33:41):
establishing the volunteer fireAnd building up businesses and
taking part in all of the commerce.
And so there's a really richJewish history in Cheyenne
that helped build up that city.
I believe that it is still the,largest city in Wyoming, right?
About 60, 000.
I think they bounced between60 and 70, 000 people today.
(34:04):
And Casper were usually between50, 000 and 60, 000 people that
were, were pretty close in size.
And as far as becoming the capital, Ibelieve that's because it was the first
stop on the railroad and that GovernorCampbell, he stepped off the rail.
This is an anecdote.
I don't know if I don't have any, anyreal evidence or to back this up yet.
(34:27):
But the story that I've always heardis that he stepped off of the train and
said, Oh, this will make a great capital.
And that's how it, it became the capital.
Fascinating.
I heard a tidbit for the railroad goingthrough Wyoming that there's all of
these towns that you look like at I80 and all those towns along I 80 and,
(34:47):
and that's basically pretty much aboutwhere the railroad goes, but you have
these towns that were created and it'slike, why, why is there a town out here?
And it was, what I heard was it'swhere the railroad had stops.
To get more water and fuel for the train.
Yes.
And even I'd go even earlier thanthe railroad that if you, if you're
(35:10):
looking at the south of our state,you're looking at the overland trail.
And if you look at what comesthrough Casper where the railroad
and the interstates come through,um, in central Wyoming, you're
looking at the Oregon, California,Mormon and Pony Express trails.
And so these migration trails arereally what becomes our future
(35:31):
interstates, highways and railroads.
And, going even earlier, thosetrails, they were animal trails
and they were Native Americantrading and hunting, trails.
And those really become our,our main highways and roads.
I think the, the small community ofGlenrock, Wyoming, which is today, mostly
(35:52):
a, a bedroom community at Casper, butmost people just commute into Casper
for work if they're living in Glenrock.
But Glenrock, it was.
At one point, more major stop than Casperwas that you had Deer Creek Station
there and you had the upper PlatteRiver Indian Agency there with Joseph
(36:13):
Bissonette was at the Deer Creek Stationand Thomas Twist was at the Indian Agency,
and both of those men had at least.
25 children each, and they hadNative American wives, there was
another little Lakota group thatwas living right in that area.
And so you can imagine that there wasactually a really bustling community
(36:35):
happening right there in the 1850s.
And so all of these communities, theygrow up and then eventually, Glen Rock,
I think it goes through that same path.
Oh, the railroad doesn'tgo through Glen Rock first.
And so the community really dies down.
And then the highway, to Yellowstonecomes through the Yellowstone highway
and it builds back up and then theinterstate comes and it dies back down.
(36:59):
So you see that boom and bust cyclewhen you talk about the movement
of people through our state.
It's that
migration route.
Oh, yes.
And it's very interesting, I think,to think about people as they moved
through, um, it's known as the largestunforced migration in the history of
the world, about half a million people,500, 000 people, um, walked through the
(37:23):
state in, from the 1840s to the 1860s.
Wow.
Half a million walking.
Oh yes.
Most of them walking the entire way.
Some of them got to ride or drivethe wagon, but most of them walking.
And Wyoming, you mentioned South Pass asa ghost town, and that it's a state park.
(37:43):
Is it known to have more ghost towns?
Are you aware?
I'm not sure if we're Um, if we'reknown to have more or less, but we do
have quite a few, around the state andI, I know, um, close to me is Jeffrey
city and Jeffrey city is sort of ahalf ghost town, half active town.
(38:04):
And they were around with the uraniummining is how the Jeffrey city really
had its big boom and it's great bigpopulation move for all of that
mining and then once they closedown the uranium mine and they've.
Done some nice work reclaiming theland around there and trying to turn
it back into more of a natural habitat.
(38:25):
The city has, has largely emptied outand so it's sort of an odd town to
drive through that you can see thatthere's some people who are moving
in and trying to take advantageand, make opportunities out of it.
And then you can also see that forthe most part it's been abandoned.
Interesting how you would describe itas half ghost, half um, active town.
(38:50):
Yes.
a, it's a weird sort of feeling Ithink when you're driving through.
When looking at the history ofWyoming, what was the importance of the
ranchers as far as establishing someof these communities and these trade
routes, in, in the, in our history?
And did they have influence in otherways as well that, that are notable?
(39:12):
Oh, yes, definitely.
But, um, quite, quite a significanthistory with the ranchers, especially
with a lot of the cattlemen whoare coming up from Texas and
taking advantage of the open range.
And then once you have the Homestead Act,actually come into Wyoming and you have
homesteaders coming in and disrupting thatopen range has led to a lot of the early
(39:39):
conflicts that we have in the state whenwe're not, talking about the Indian Wars.
Of course, the Indian Wars are,the earliest conflicts that the
United States has in, in the area.
But talking about the Johnson County warin particular is thinking a lot about how
we're shifting from open range into Thesehomesteaders coming in, um, Ella Watson
(40:03):
and Jim Arville are great examples ofthat in Natrona County, that they, they
come in and they, um, they are a marriedcouple and they do what a lot of people
do, which is try and cheat the system.
They went in and they both applied for.
Land and receive their 150 acresand a very nice choice property
(40:25):
right on the Sweetwater River.
There were some large ranchers in thearea who were paying their, cow, cattle
hands to go out and make those claims sothat way they could buy them from them and
amass a large ranch in order to maintaintheir cattle and maintain their herd.
Which requires a lot moreland than 150 acres for sure.
(40:46):
and Ella Watson and Jim Arville, theydidn't want to sell out their land.
And so their neighbors, they sendthem poison pies that they didn't eat.
They fed to their dogsand killed their dogs.
And Ella Watson, she had purchased somecattle that had been passing through on
a cattle drive and they had hook rot.
And so they wouldn't have beenable to complete the drive.
(41:08):
So she had several cattlewith different brands on them.
And they use that as an excuse tosay that she was wrestling cattle
and they grabbed up her and Jim andthey were apparently just going to
try and scare them a little bit.
And She was trying to get them todrive down to Cheyenne to prove that
(41:29):
her bill of sale was legitimate.
And she was known as a, a woman who shewasn't going to sit quietly for sure.
She was going to tell it how it is.
And.
that, that got her into more troublethan she bargained for that night.
They took her, it's, very closeto Independence Rock, actually.
If you're standing on the boulderwhere they were, that you can
(41:51):
see Independence Rock from there.
And they lynched both her and her husband.
Oh yes, and so I believe that wasin the 1870s and that was just right
before the Johnson County war brokeout and the violence just north of
Natrona County over the same issues of.
(42:12):
accusations of cattle wrestling, butthe accusations of cattle wrestling
were really, masks for land grabsthat were happening and then poor
management of herds with some reallyhard winters that the cattle barons were
starting to get a little bit greedy inWyoming in the 18 seventies that they.
(42:32):
We're putting cattle into the marketthat were too young and trying to inflate
their numbers and after several hardwinters and they weren't able to reach.
The numbers that the Eastern marketswere expecting, that's when they start
blaming all of these wrestlers thatare around stealing these cattle.
(42:52):
And that's where the cattle have gone,not, not the hard winters and not
their poor management of the herds.
And that results in a, ina great deal of violence.
And that violence is what you're talkingabout is the Johnson County wars.
Yes, that's right.
Could you expand on whatthe Johnson County wars?
Were a little bit more thanthe time range of that.
(43:14):
Yes, definitely.
So we're looking at the 1870s in Wyomingwith the Johnson County wars, and we're
really looking at a lot of, um, governmentcorruption also that there was an
invasion that happened, but they broughtin a lot of the, former Texas Rangers
and people from out of state who theyhad convinced that they were going to.
(43:35):
Come in here as a, that they neededthem as a militia to, tamp down
these wrestlers that were coming.
And they had a, a hit list of peoplethat they wanted them to go after.
And some of those people were oneof the people at the top of the
list was a man named Nate champion.
And he was an outspokencritic of the cattle barons.
(43:58):
He was someone who was willingto testify in court against them.
And he was at the top,the top of their list.
And so this invading army, theycome up, by train from Colorado and.
There's evidence that they weresupported by not only the Wyoming
(44:19):
Stock Growers Association, but alsoby the governor at the time and some
of our state senators at the time.
And they did things likethey knew that the sheriff.
And Douglas would be verymuch opposed to this.
And so they had him, convenientlyout of town on a meeting when
(44:41):
the train came through Douglas.
And then once the train was in Casper,they, they got off the train and
they started on horseback up towardsBuffalo, Wyoming, and they were on
their way to Buffalo when they heardthat Nate champion and a friend.
Were at a ranch nearby and so they wentto, they surrounded him, he had a diary
(45:04):
and he writes, about how they shot andkilled his companion and he drugged
his companion into the cabin with him.
And he's writing this diary about howhe's going to try and make a break
for it once the sun goes down, and hehopes that he'll be able to make it
out there but he doesn't think thathe's going to be able to make it.
And he does, he makes his break forit and they, they shot him down dead.
(45:28):
And then at that point, the citizens inBuffalo had learned about this invading
army and they came to confront them.
And so the invaders, they ended up,sequestered out on a ranch, trying
to protect themselves in a defensiveposition, and they were surrounded by.
basically the citizens of Buffalothat were saying, we're not, we're not
(45:49):
going to allow you to come in here.
And, at that point, ourgovernor started to panic.
And he is asking for a militia to come inand, they actually, I believe that they
had to, that one of our state senatorshad to like try and go and wake up the
president, um, in order to get the U.
S.
militia to, to come.
(46:10):
They arrested the, the invaders.
and brought them to one of theforts where they were held mostly
for the invaders protection.
And most of those invaders thatthey did not see any sort of, legal
repercussions for their actions there.
Quite the
event in Wyoming history.
(46:31):
Yes.
Yes.
I could listen to you and talklike this all, all day long.
I love it.
I would recommend, um, readingband Didi of the planes.
It was written by, Asa Mercer.
He's a, he was a journalist atthe time and he was absolutely
(46:51):
disgusted with what had happenedand with what he, he was witnessing.
And so he writes this book.
And it was, banned in Wyoming.
There's a story about a, a wagon full ofthem being taken out of the state under
gunfire and them trying to destroy allcopies of the Spandidi at the Plains book.
(47:12):
but it's, I would highly recommend it.
They hit.
It's quite good.
And then John Davis is also,he's a recent historian.
He's currently working in Wyomingand he's written a fabulous
book on the Johnson County War.
Um, and that's thelatest scholarship on it.
And I would highlyrecommend that book as well.
How do you spell
ASA's first name?
(47:35):
ASA.
And it's Mercer, M E R C E R.
Okay.
And so he wrote that, when did he writethat book about the Johnson County wars?
He wrote it,
right about the same timethat it was all happening.
Um, right after it happenedis when he wrote that book.
So that's, um, contemporary with the
event.
You can still find a copy at the library?
Yes, you should be able tofind a copy in the library.
(47:56):
It is a little bit harder to find inWyoming than outside of the state.
or it used to be.
I think it's easier today than it, than it
was.
Oh, interesting.
Well, have you written a book?
I mean, how can people follow some ofthis work that you that you're doing?
Oh, yes, definitely.
I I've written several articlesnow with wild history dot org.
(48:18):
I started last september asan assistant editor with them.
They're a project of theWyoming Historical Society.
I think that if you want to supportindependent scholars like me or support
just scholarship on Wyoming history,that the best way to do that is to join
the Wyoming Historical Society, thatthey are a wonderful institution and
they have also given me a great deal ofsupport as I have started my own business
(48:42):
and started to dig into the historythat I, I received a Homeshore Research
Grant for my work on women's suffrage.
And again, working forthem as an assistant editor
has been really wonderful.
So I've written several articlesabout women office holders in
the West, like Ethel Stoner.
who, had a street brawl trying to,enforce prohibition in Cokeville, Wyoming.
(49:05):
And there was, Elizabeth Wileyin Greybull, Wyoming, who she ran
for mayor in order to chase the KuKlux Klan out of Greybull in 1924.
And she was successful, which is amazing.
And she, um, served for several,several terms as mayor in Greybull.
And so I have articles aboutthem and an article about the
(49:29):
state flag up on wyohistory.
org.
I'm hoping to write some morearticles about women's suffrage
and some of these other topics.
I also have several presentationsthat I do, commissioned presentations,
that's how I learned about Glen Rockcommunity, that the Converse County
Library commissioned me to do a historyon Converse County for their libraries.
(49:52):
And I have some presentationsthat I already have done and
ready that I have one on the stateflag, several on women's suffrage.
And I also have one where I dotalk about my experiences growing
up Jewish in Wyoming and thatdry timber of the Holocaust.
And, I'm happy to drive all over thestate and come to your community that
(50:13):
the county libraries are a great place.
They usually have the budget to hireme and Help make that affordable
and help me pay my bills, whichis important as a historian.
I hope everybody knows thateven historians need to eat.
and that I would love to, I would loveto come to your communities and to, to
share this history and to talk with you.
(50:34):
Well, Kylie, I'm so grateful thatyou're doing the work that you're
doing, finding this history andbringing it back to life, um, giving
it a life, in today's modern time.
And if people wanted to reachout to you and connect with you,
what is a great way to do that?
Oh yes, you can send me anemail at klmhistorian at gmail.
(50:57):
com or you can check out mywebsite kyliethehistorian.
com and there is a way to contactme on that website as well.
Super.
Well, I hope we get to meet somedaythat you're brought out here to
Jackson Hole to speak about Wyominghistory or some, some other history.
And so thank you for your time.
(51:18):
This has been an absolute joy, uh,getting to learn more about Wyoming
and getting to connect with you, Kylie.
I appreciate it.
Yes.
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate, this opportunityto share with your audience and, I look
forward to keeping up with your podcast.
I've enjoyed listening tosome of the past episodes.
Thank you.
You're
(51:38):
welcome.
Thank you, Kylie.
Great to see you today.
To learn more about Kylie McCormickand Wyoming's Vast and colorful
history, visit the Jackson Holeconnection.com, episode number 250.
I am very grateful to everybodywho's helped me keep the Jackson
Hole connection on the air.
The support that my wifeLaura gives me every day I.
(52:00):
The love and caring and of course lossof hair and new gray hairs that my
boys, William and Lewis helped me have.
And of course, Michael, who hasbeen the editor and marketing
director for so many years.
For me, your time is importantand I am grateful and appreciative
of you sharing your time.
(52:20):
Get out there and share this podcast.
Get out there and do something.
Rattle the world a little bit.
Be kind to folks, get out there,have conversations, and who knows?
Look for me down in the future andI'll let you know what comes up next.
In signing off for the Jackson HoleConnection, I'm Stephan Abrams.
Cheers folks.
You are tuned into the Jackson hole,connection, sharing, fascinating stories
of people connected to Jackson Hole.
I am truly grateful for each ofyou for tuning in today and support
for this podcast comes from:
Over the past maybe year or so, I'vebeen beginning this podcast with a quote.
Well, today I begin this podcastfor a thank you to you all for
(00:26):
listening in, for sharing thispodcast with friends and family.
I am So grateful to Michael Moerifor being by my side for each of the
past 250 episodes, which has beenover the past four and a half years.
I could not have hosted thispodcast, the Jackson Hole Connection
each week without the commitmentand guidance of Michael Moeri.
(00:48):
And think about this folks.
Michael Edits and Markets the podcast.
Michael has been editing thispodcast since it started, so he
has listened to every single secondof every episode of this podcast.
Thank you, Michael.
Couldn't have done it without you.
And this is my last episode ofthe Jackson Hole connection.
(01:10):
Since I started this podcast, Inever thought I would be going 250
episodes, four and a half years.
I really didn't know whatI was gonna be doing.
but I kept it going and I'veloved speaking to every one of the
guests and I've added several itemsto my list of responsibilities.
And now it's time for me to takethat time which I allocate to the
(01:33):
podcast and allocate it to some ofthe other new commitments that I have.
I am joyful and sad to call this anend to the Jackson Hole connection.
And who knows?
Maybe with the added time that I have, I.
Might come up with a new podcast.
A new idea might come to life,and we'll just all have to wait
(01:53):
and see how the future unfolds.
Although this podcast is ending,the episodes are available for
listening, remembering, and sharing,please, if you take some things away
from, 250 episodes I've hosted.
I ask that you find joy,gratitude, and love in life.
Find the opportunity to speakto people with a curious mind.
(02:14):
You have a curious mindin the conversation.
Speak to somebody that you don't know.
Say hello to somebody you're walkingdown the street and find someone.
That you want to say I love you and sharewith them regularly that you love them.
I'm grateful to you all for supporting me.
And now today's episode, episode250, and my guest today is Kylie
(02:37):
McCormick, who is a Wyoming native.
Born and raised in Casper,Wyoming, lives in Casper, Wyoming.
Now Kylie has been building hercareer in Wyoming after returning
from graduate school in the east.
And Kylie is a historian and Iconnected very strongly with Kylie
cuz I'm a person who loves history,which you'll certainly hear today.
(03:00):
And I used to love listening to mygrandmother tell stories of growing
up on a farm in rural Arkansas.
Also listening to my grandfather'sstories of growing up during the
Great Depression in Mississippi.
history is alive within each of us,and Kylie has some stories of her own
for you today, some of which we hadsimilar experiences being raised in
(03:21):
small towns as a religious minority.
Collie also has several stories aboutWyoming history to share with you.
And one final note before we begin.
After recording, Kylie emailed me tolet me know she had a date incorrect
in the interview and the date wasincorrect for the Johnston County Wars.
(03:41):
the Johnston County Wars happenedin the 1880s, not the 1870s as
she had stated in the interview.
And here we go.
Highly welcome to theJackson Hole Connection.
It's delightful to be able tohave this opportunity to sit
down and talk to a historian.
I love history.
I so love history.
(04:02):
So thank you for your time today.
Yes.
Thank you so much forhaving me today, Stephen.
you're welcome.
So We start every episode with a littlebackground, some history about you.
So Kylie, where were you born and raised?
We haven't all grown up.
And, how did you land?
You don't live here in Jackson.
You live in another part of Wyoming.
(04:24):
You can share that with us, butI'm delighted that we get to talk.
So what is your historyand background to Wyoming?
I grew up in Casper and that'swhere I was born and raised.
And I wanted to get away from Wyomingwhen I, when I went to get my education.
So I went all the way to Virginiato a small all women's university
called Holland's university.
(04:45):
And then I.
Came back home for about a yearbefore leaving again to go to the
University of Nebraska Lincoln,where I earned my master's degree.
And then I bounced back home to Wyoming.
Wyoming has quite the, quite the draw.
I couldn't get it out of me.
And so I was very happy toend up back in Casper, and
that's, that's where I'm at now.
(05:07):
Awesome.
And how did your familyland in Casper, Wyoming?
That's a great question.
My mother, she grew up in St.
Joseph, Missouri.
And my father, he was born inValentine, Nebraska and raised
in North Platte, Nebraska.
And they met here in St.
Joseph going to collegetogether, um, in theater class.
(05:28):
And my father, they wereworking here in Missouri.
They had opened up the Bernstein familybakery again, and we're running that a
little bit with one of my aunts in town.
And my father couldn't, couldn'thandle the humidity, but it gave him
terrible headaches and everything else.
So his best man had actually movedout to Casper, Wyoming, and he said,
(05:50):
there's work out here in Wyoming.
And so my, my parents both cameand they fell in love and they.
They've been there ever since.
Oh,
beautiful.
and growing up in Wyoming, and in Casper,you grew up as, as a minority, as well.
So, and, and where I grew up inMississippi, I grew up as a minority.
(06:12):
I grew up in a town calledBrookhaven, Mississippi, and we were,
at that time, the Jewish family.
in in Brookhaven.
if anybody knew that anybody was Jewish,they just asked for the Abrams family.
the Jewish kids were my sister and I,we drove an hour every Sunday to go to
Sunday school to Jackson, Mississippi.
and my brother as well.
(06:34):
So it's my brother, my sister andI, so what was it like growing
up Jewish in Casper, Wyoming?
There is a small Jewish community inCasper, which I was really grateful for.
and some who were in similar age rangeas me, but no one in my, in my class.
And we would get to go to Cheyenneoccasionally for things like the Jewish
(06:57):
rendezvous, that the celebrating PennyWollin's book of the Jews in Wyoming,
that pictorial book, that's so well done.
I got to go there right aboutthe time I was 10 years old and
learned some traditional dances.
Whenever we'd come back home to,or back to my mother's home in St.
Joseph, we would get to, attendher synagogue that she grew up in.
(07:20):
And I'd be surrounded by my auntsand cousins, but in Casper, there
weren't, there weren't a lot of us.
And I was the only one inmy class always growing up.
I think that my classmatesenjoyed it because my mom would
come in and say, well, we've.
You're not just getting Christmas, you'regoing to hear the story of Hanukkah
too and incorporate some of that intoelementary school, which was really nice.
(07:43):
That's beautiful.
I'm glad that it was embraced and your momcame and did that, for, for your class.
And I went and spoke about Hanukkah tomy boys classes this past year, and,
and they were super stoked about it.
I think that's really important.
I will say that there was a shift,after my sister's classmates, I have
an older sister, just two years olderthan me, and it's just the two of us.
(08:06):
Um, but after her class,learned about the holocaust.
And then after my class learnedabout the holocaust, we both
experienced, a surge in anti semitismthat was really, really negative.
I think that that was, it's reallymade me think about how we, how we talk
about horrific events like genocidesand slavery and And things like that,
(08:30):
that we, we need to teach these in a waywhere it's not going to result in more
bigotry or more harassment and more antiSemitism, which is unfortunately what
my sister and I experienced after ourclassmates learned about the Holocaust,
which would have been right about,I'm forgetting if it was seventh or
ninth grade, it's, it's in junior high,I think when we, when we did that.
(08:53):
Do you feel comfortable sharing what weresome of those, actions or, how did you
feel as though you started feeling someanti Semitism after, the Holocaust was
taught?
Yes, definitely.
But, um, we, we vandalized with swastikas.
and a death threat.
(09:14):
We had, I've, I had people come up tome and, and call me, pardon, pardon
my language, um, call me a kike.
And I, I had a lot of my, my friendgroup just thought that it was funny.
I'm, I'm from the generation thatreally grew up with South Park.
And that idea of I can make funof everybody and I can make fun of
(09:36):
anything and nothing's off the table.
And so things like, thereweren't enough seats in the car.
And so one of my friendssaid, Oh, that's okay.
Kylie can ride in the ashtray.
And so things like that,that I had to deal with.
I've been happy to tell my friendsI'm not comfortable with this and
ending up losing most of my friendsfrom that was a hard experience in
high school, but an important one,it taught me how to stand up for
(09:59):
myself and to find my voice, I guess.
Thank you for sharing Kylie.
I didn't experience quitethat, level of anti Semitism,
but, I appreciate you sharing.
And yes, all of.
The bad things that happen in theworld to genocide around the world
in history should be taught andit's important that it's taught in a
(10:22):
fashion that it doesn't reinvigoratethe same type of negative feelings
so we don't, it doesn't happen again.
Right.
And I think that there, there is anattitude I know, I don't think that
Jackson Hole has quite the same problemsthat Casper has in terms of, um, we have
a very high youth suicide rate in Wyomingin general, but especially in places
(10:45):
like Casper, and I, I'm quick to linkthat to the sort of attitude of nothing
matters and I can make fun of anything.
And the, that jokey.
sort of approach to, horrific historythat I think I'm not sure if you're
familiar with, um, there's a wonderfulhistorian named Doris Bergen, and she
(11:08):
wrote a great book called A ConciseHistory of the Holocaust, and she opens
it with a metaphor of a house burningdown, and she says that several things
are required for a house to burn down.
You need the, environment that isconducive to it, that's dry, and She
says that World War Two created anenvironment that was conducive to this
(11:29):
violence and accepting that violence.
She said you need a spark to set it off.
She calls the Nazi regime andHitler that spark that set it off.
But you also need dry timber, and I thinkthat that dry timber is something that
we often overlook in our, in our cultureand our society, and that is that those
jokes that everybody thinks are justharmless that it's just a joke, and it's
(11:52):
not that big of a deal, but that theyactually are a big deal once we get those
other two elements in there that it makesit makes people more willing to accept.
the targeting and murder ofcertain groups of people.
And we need to be very mindful of ourdry timber in our, our communities
and work hard to clear it out.
Just like good, good forest management.
(12:15):
Indeed.
I appreciate that assimilation and,and the recommendation of the book.
I have not heard of Doris Bergen'sbook, so I will certainly look
that one up and, and Kylie.
You are a historian and you're aWyoming historian and that's where you
place a lot of your energy and time.
And again, as I said in theintroduction, I love history.
(12:40):
I grew up Around my grandparentswho my grandfather was born in 1904.
I think my grandmother's about1912 and just hearing just think
about, I mean, he died at 96 andthe changes that he saw growing up.
So I am thrilled.
to learn a little bit aboutWyoming history, what you have
(13:03):
been learning and teaching andtalking about throughout the state.
So, where do you want to begin?
What do you want to talk aboutfor some Wyoming history, Kylie?
Yes, definitely.
I I started digging into Wyoming historywhen I moved back home to Casper in
2017 and that is, was the, oh, whatis it, the 100 year anniversary of the
(13:27):
Wyoming state flag and at the time I wasstruggling a little bit with my health
and so I was substitute teaching tohave a little bit of flexibility there.
And I needed something because Iwas used to doing all of this great
research and digging into history.
And so I needed somethingto keep my mind active.
And I found myself in the NatronaCounty Library looking through
(13:50):
a book of Casper memories.
And there I found an anecdote by thewoman who designed our flag, Verna Keys.
spelled differently, but keys, keys, andshe was talking about designing this flag.
And she said that this woman namedGrace Raymond Hebert was responsible
for flipping the bison that originallythat she had the bison facing the other
(14:13):
way on our flag to represent freedom.
But Grace Hebert preferred itwith the bison hitched towards
the flagstaff as it flies today.
And that's, that's the way it was.
I had run into Grace T.
Bird while I was workingon my master's degree.
I was writing a article aboutwomen office holders in the West.
(14:34):
And wanted to write about Esther HobartMorris as the first woman justice
of a piece in South Pass City, butin order to write about Esther as a
judge, you have to first deal withthis controversy looming over her as to
whether or not she had anything to dowith bringing suffrage to the territory.
and influencing William Brightto introduce that bill in 1869.
(14:59):
I didn't want to dealwith that controversy.
I wanted to deal with her asan office holder and a judge.
And so I just sort of accepted what thosesecondary sources were telling me about
that story and what the standard, what,what the published standard is today on
woman's suffrage in Wyoming, which is,oh, she didn't even know William Bright
(15:22):
until after that legislative session.
She had nothing to do with it.
And Grace Raymond Hebert is theone who, who made it all up.
And she was a, a suffragist, desperatefor a heroine who needed to put
a woman into that oversized role.
So here I was running into Hubertagain, and she's changing our
flag, and I thought, well, justwho did this woman think she was?
(15:45):
And so I started digging into her files.
She has over 80 boxes at the AmericanHeritage Center down in Laramie.
And as of March of this year, I havephotographed all of her files that
have not been digitized and digginginto her correspondence and digging
into the work that she's done.
I've made some really incrediblediscoveries and have really found that
(16:10):
this woman has gotten quite a bad rapthat she doesn't, doesn't quite deserve.
Well, why does she get a badrap that she doesn't deserve?
Well, I think that she is, um, shewas a very powerful woman at a time
where not a lot of women had power andshe had a lot of institutional power
behind her and a lot of, um, supportfrom men and women in power in Wyoming.
(16:34):
And she, she accomplished a lot of things,but when you accomplish a lot of things,
you are also going to be stepping onsome toes and doing things that other
people disagree with and don't like.
And so she, she gained alittle bit of a reputation,
especially after she passed away.
Um, she's done wonderfulthings for our state.
(16:56):
She built up the university library fromabout 500 books to over 60, 000 books.
I mentioned, she's responsible for ushaving the state flag that we have.
She's the one who sponsored that contestwhile she was state regent of the
daughters of the American revolution.
And she wrote some of ourfirst child labor laws.
I, I often say that if there'sa pie baking in Wyoming,
(17:19):
she had her thumb in it.
what help people have a little bitof relevance here of this time frame
of when she was doing this work.
So when was she born?
When did she pass away?
When was this time frame thatshe was doing a lot of this work?
Yes, definitely.
She was born in 1861 in Iowa, and thenshe moved to Wyoming when she was 21
(17:42):
years old in 1882, and she was workingfor the general surveyor's office help as.
One of 42 draftsmen.
She wasn't the only woman inthe office, but she was the only
woman working as a draftsman.
So that means that she was basicallya cartographer that she is taking
the surveyors notes and drawingthe maps of what would become
(18:02):
the future state of Wyoming.
She was there in 1889 and sat on thecommittee when the first gathering of
Wyoming women got together to advocatefor women's suffrage in the state.
And she helped to draft their resolvesthat they were only going to elect
pro suffrage, delegates to theWyoming Constitutional Convention.
(18:25):
She was, then after the verge, shemoved to Laramie and became essential
in the building up and establishmentof our state university, sat on the
board of trustees for many years, andshe worked until her death in 1936.
And so it, it really started offas a hobby, me looking into the
(18:45):
keyboard and the flag and justsomething to keep myself interested.
And then in 2019, I decided that I wasgoing to do something with this, that my
friends at the National Historic TrailsInterpretive Center had asked me if I
had anything I had been researching thatI would be able to do a presentation on.
And I said, well, I've got this.
(19:05):
Thing on the Wyoming flagthat I've been working on.
So I put that together and thepresentation and I decided, you know,
what, what if I try and tour thisaround the state and what if I make some
greeting cards and some stickers whereI can sell them at my presentations?
And so I started offering it to libraries,um, Crook County up in Sundance and
(19:26):
Hewlett where some of the first librariesto hire me and bring me up there.
And it's been, A lot of fun.
I didn't know in the fall of 2019that COVID was about to happen as I
jumped in, full time and to beinga public speaker, but I'm been very
fortunate to be able to make it work.
And from what was originally designed.
(19:48):
So that our flag, when was thatofficially stated, Hey, this is our flag.
The contest for the flag was in thefall of 1916, and then it was signed
into law on January 31st, Oh, beautiful.
John Kendrick.
Okay.
And has our flag design changed in any waysince it being signed into law in 1917?
(20:15):
Yes, it has.
That is actually whenthe bison was changed.
If you look at the descriptionof the Wyoming flag, Grace
Hebert, she is responsible forthat technical description.
And you can definitely tellbecause of the word buffalo, the
designer of her flag, she alwaysreferred to the animal as a bison.
Um, except for in one speech thatshe gives in her hometown of Buffalo,
(20:38):
Wyoming, where she calls it our buffalo.
It's really sweet.
But she always calls it a bison, theirletters back and forth are a little, a
little tense and biting, especially, VernaKeyes, she was a young woman when she
designed the flag, she had just graduatedfrom the Art Institute of Chicago, and
she had won a contest, and so she wasfeeling like a very, a previous contest
(21:00):
with the Burlington Railroads, she wasfeeling, Like a very successful artist
and then here's this older woman comingin and changing her design and hey,
what right do you have to say over this?
but Grace Hebert, I think she,she just preferred that bison
with his nose into the wind.
Okay.
So she didn't include any kindof technical description as to
(21:21):
which direction the bison faces.
And so it was when the flags were first.
Manufactured for the two gentlemenresponsible for the law, John
Kendrick and Senator William Daly.
And Grace Hebert, she had Vernon makethe flag or manufacture the flags from
the Chicago, George Lauder company andthose flags were made as Hebert preferred
(21:48):
with the bison towards the staff.
I love it.
So, what other...
Notable items that you've learnedin your research about Wyoming
history that if we weren't talkingto you today, we wouldn't know
to put you on the spot.
Yes, well, I actually found Ihave something very exciting
(22:09):
to share with you actually.
Oh, please.
That is that in 1902, the manwho introduced the women's
suffrage bill for us, WilliamBright, he was in Washington, D.
C.
at a national women's suffrage convention.
For a pioneer evening and on stagefor all of these pioneer women who
(22:34):
had these oversized amazing rolesin the movement, including Susan B.
Anthony and Susan B.
Anthony actually recognized WilliamBright from the crowd, which is quite
remarkable all in its own right.
She, she knew him by sight and shecalled him up onto stage and asked him
to share why he introduced that billand he gave credit to Esther Morris.
(22:59):
He said that.
He knew next to nothing aboutwoman's suffrage before he met her
and that she loaded him down with itbefore he went to the legislature,
which are really key words there.
And so for me, this is definitiveevidence that Esther Morris, she is
the first successful advocate of alasting woman's suffrage in the United
(23:24):
States, and that we have it directfrom the man who introduced her.
the bill himself, that that's wherehis inspiration was coming from.
This also does mean that Esther Morris,a woman who is known to have been anti
slavery and to have, her neighborsand possibly she had helped out on
(23:45):
the Underground Railroad, according toCatherine Swim Cummings research and
her excellent book on Esther Morris.
That does mean that Esther Morris would beresponsible for making that really racist
argument that convinced William Bright.
he was a pro Southern, Democrat who wasagainst the 15th Amendment, which would
recognize Black men's right to vote.
(24:05):
And he, advocated against thatamendment in South Pass City.
And what, whenever he was asked aboutwhy he believed that women's suffrage was
just and something that needed to be done.
He said that it was because he believedhis wife and his mother were more
capable and intelligent than the,recently enfranchised black men.
(24:31):
Hmm.
And so that's, it's a good, um, balanceron Esther Morris that we get to, to really
look at her as, in a complete picture, I
think.
So help me unwind this a little bit.
William Bright, he, was he a U.
S.
Senator from Wyoming?
So he was a, he, he was born inVirginia and he did serve for
(24:53):
the Union during the Civil War.
And after the Civil War, likeseveral, several Southerners.
He came West.
In fact, Wyoming is full ofSoutherners in 1868 and 1869
when we are becoming a territory.
President Grant, he appointedan entirely Republican executive
branch for our new territory.
(25:15):
So our, everybody was Republicanat the, at the start and the
executive branch like Edward M.
Lee, who was a, Secretary for theSecretary of State, and they determined
that they were going to the 15thamendment had not yet been ratified.
And they said, but it's the lawof the land and the territories,
(25:35):
and we are going to live up to it.
And so they actually sent a militia toSouth Pass City to serve as a protection
for the black men who were there,about nine black men, I believe, were
able to vote in that 1869 election.
And the 1869 election was determiningwho was going to serve in our
(25:59):
first territorial legislature.
And it was entirely Democratic, thatthere were no Republicans elected.
And the Democrat Party, they werethe pro self, pro slavery, anti
15th Amendment party in 1869.
And that's who William Bright, he wasa, he was a Democrat who was elected to
that first territorial legislature andserved as president of the council, which,
(26:24):
would be the head of the Senate today.
Okay.
And then Esther Morris,you mentioned her with.
having involvement withunderground railroad.
Was she a Wyoming resident?
At the time she had moved to Wyoming.
She had been living,I believe in Illinois.
Think that's where she was coming from,but she had spent about eight months
(26:47):
actually in New York city, living withher niece Libby and Libby was working
as the private secretary to Susan B.
Anthony and Elizabeth CadyStanton while they published
the nation's first suffrage.
Newspaper called the revolutionand it's really wonderful.
A lot of those, if you look at thefirst edition of the revolution,
(27:09):
the lays out the platform ofthe women's rights movement.
And a lot of those platform planksare actually incorporated into the
laws that are passed by that firstterritorial legislature that they pass
a law where they recognize marriedwomen's right to hold property.
They recognize women's rights to theirchildren that today it's sort of weird
(27:32):
for us to think about, but in the 1800s, awoman had no rights to her, her children.
And so, if there was a divorceor her husband left her for some
reason, he had the entire legal claimover, over their children together.
So this recognized, womenbasically became independent.
(27:53):
We were no longer dependent on ourhusbands or fathers in Wyoming.
We were recognized as full citizens.
And they did some things that, You know,you've got these great ideals, but aren't
necessarily always followed through.
Um, one of those was an equal pay law in1869, for male teachers and women teachers
(28:14):
to be treated or to be paid the sameamount, which is really quite incredible.
And I think there were some communitieswho embraced that and did that.
And then there were other communities whosaid, oh, but the man needs to be bringing
home more money, obviously, and, and paytheir male teachers more despite that law.
I love this.
Thank you, Kylie.
We're going to take a quick break toget a word from one of our sponsors.
(28:36):
And then I want to learn more, alittle bit more about South pass.
Cause you've mentioned South passseveral times, so we'll be right back.
Oh, definitely.
Kylie.
Welcome back.
Learning so much about the importancethat Wyoming is a territory and its
citizens had on women's suffrage andequal rights for women, in the history
(29:00):
of our country is fascinating and severaltimes you've mentioned South Pass.
Give us some background about what SouthPass is, where it is, but what was the
significance and what is South Pass now?
Yes, definitely.
South Pass at the time would have beenone of the major cities in, in the area
(29:20):
that right about 18, In 1969, there wereabout 5, 000 people in Denver, Colorado,
and if you're looking at all of thesurrounding cities, um, Miners Delight
and Atlantic City and South Pass, you'relooking at roughly the same, a little
bit less of population in that area.
(29:40):
And so you can imagine thepeople who are moving there.
Yes, they thought that this might becomeone of the major American cities and in
the 1860s that there was a lot of hopefor Wyoming to grow these great big
cities like they were growing back east.
And the big draw to South Pass were,uh, were the mines, the, the gold mines.
(30:03):
There's the Clarissa mine that youcan still go and tour through today.
And there are some, I've, I've heardsome rumblings as I've been touring
around the state and sharing my research.
There have been some of my audiencemembers who tell me that there's
people out there who are stakingclaims today and who are still
(30:24):
out there trying to, to find gold.
South Pass City, it didnot go the way of Denver.
It did end up, um, going throughits bust and just about everybody
left the town except for one family.
The, oh, let me see if I canremember their names all of
a sudden ran away from me.
But
(30:47):
about one family stayed in, in SouthPass City, Janet Sherlock Smith.
And her sons, it was interesting.
She, she became blind in her old ageand one of her sons, he also lost
his eyesight in a mining accident.
And I often think about them as Southpass became this ghost town and.
Whether or not it would be easier tostay in a ghost town where you don't
(31:11):
have a lot of people, but you're veryfamiliar with it as a disabled person who
is losing your eyesight or who has lostyour eyesight, or if it would be better
to move to a larger city like Cheyenneor something like that, that would have
more people and more, more accessibility.
Um, it's just, it's interesting to meto think about the, the Janet Sherlock
(31:31):
Smith family and their decision to stay.
Do they still have
descendants?
I'm not sure about that.
possibly in the area.
I hope so.
They do have if you go and visit SouthPass today, it is a state park and I
recommend everybody go and check it out.
And a lot of buildingshave been reconstructed.
Esther Morris's cabin has beenreconstructed, but it is not
(31:54):
the floor plan of South Pass.
When she lived there, it's just a, astructure that is in the general area
where we believe her cabin was, butthere are some original buildings and
all of those original buildings areassociated with the Janet Sherlock Smith
family like their, their hotel and theirdry goods store and things like that.
(32:15):
Now,
if South Pass whenWyoming was a territory.
Was such a booming community.
How did it compare to howdid Cheyenne compare to it?
And then how did Cheyenne end up becomingthe state Capitol and correct me if
I'm wrong for a long time, Cheyennewas the largest populated community
(32:35):
and then it became Casper, but itcould have been some other places.
In between that were largerthan those places at some time.
Yes, definitely.
Well, Cheyenne, it'squite an interesting city.
I think that they definitely earnedthe nickname Magic City because one
day Cheyenne wasn't there and thenext day it was that the railroad came
(32:56):
through and pretty much instantaneously.
There was a city.
What's been fascinating to me isthat as I, as I've gotten more into
Wyoming history, um, it's sort of asimilar story as my academic career
where I, I was looking at slaveryand religion in the United States
and looking at Christianity and theimpacts of the Second Great Awakening.
(33:19):
And then I said, well, whatabout Jewish slaveholders?
And now I'm finding myself that I'm at thepoint in my research in Wyoming where I'm
saying, well, what about Jews in Wyoming?
What, what were Jewish people doing here?
And as I dig into the history of Cheyenne,Jewish people were there immediately.
They play a major role in, um,establishing the town councils,
(33:41):
establishing the volunteer fireAnd building up businesses and
taking part in all of the commerce.
And so there's a really richJewish history in Cheyenne
that helped build up that city.
I believe that it is still the,largest city in Wyoming, right?
About 60, 000.
I think they bounced between60 and 70, 000 people today.
(34:04):
And Casper were usually between50, 000 and 60, 000 people that
were, were pretty close in size.
And as far as becoming the capital, Ibelieve that's because it was the first
stop on the railroad and that GovernorCampbell, he stepped off the rail.
This is an anecdote.
I don't know if I don't have any, anyreal evidence or to back this up yet.
(34:27):
But the story that I've always heardis that he stepped off of the train and
said, Oh, this will make a great capital.
And that's how it, it became the capital.
Fascinating.
I heard a tidbit for the railroad goingthrough Wyoming that there's all of
these towns that you look like at I80 and all those towns along I 80 and,
(34:47):
and that's basically pretty much aboutwhere the railroad goes, but you have
these towns that were created and it'slike, why, why is there a town out here?
And it was, what I heard was it'swhere the railroad had stops.
To get more water and fuel for the train.
Yes.
And even I'd go even earlier thanthe railroad that if you, if you're
(35:10):
looking at the south of our state,you're looking at the overland trail.
And if you look at what comesthrough Casper where the railroad
and the interstates come through,um, in central Wyoming, you're
looking at the Oregon, California,Mormon and Pony Express trails.
And so these migration trails arereally what becomes our future
(35:31):
interstates, highways and railroads.
And, going even earlier, thosetrails, they were animal trails
and they were Native Americantrading and hunting, trails.
And those really become our,our main highways and roads.
I think the, the small community ofGlenrock, Wyoming, which is today, mostly
(35:52):
a, a bedroom community at Casper, butmost people just commute into Casper
for work if they're living in Glenrock.
But Glenrock, it was.
At one point, more major stop than Casperwas that you had Deer Creek Station
there and you had the upper PlatteRiver Indian Agency there with Joseph
(36:13):
Bissonette was at the Deer Creek Stationand Thomas Twist was at the Indian Agency,
and both of those men had at least.
25 children each, and they hadNative American wives, there was
another little Lakota group thatwas living right in that area.
And so you can imagine that there wasactually a really bustling community
(36:35):
happening right there in the 1850s.
And so all of these communities, theygrow up and then eventually, Glen Rock,
I think it goes through that same path.
Oh, the railroad doesn'tgo through Glen Rock first.
And so the community really dies down.
And then the highway, to Yellowstonecomes through the Yellowstone highway
and it builds back up and then theinterstate comes and it dies back down.
(36:59):
So you see that boom and bust cyclewhen you talk about the movement
of people through our state.
It's that
migration route.
Oh, yes.
And it's very interesting, I think,to think about people as they moved
through, um, it's known as the largestunforced migration in the history of
the world, about half a million people,500, 000 people, um, walked through the
(37:23):
state in, from the 1840s to the 1860s.
Wow.
Half a million walking.
Oh yes.
Most of them walking the entire way.
Some of them got to ride or drivethe wagon, but most of them walking.
And Wyoming, you mentioned South Pass asa ghost town, and that it's a state park.
(37:43):
Is it known to have more ghost towns?
Are you aware?
I'm not sure if we're Um, if we'reknown to have more or less, but we do
have quite a few, around the state andI, I know, um, close to me is Jeffrey
city and Jeffrey city is sort of ahalf ghost town, half active town.
(38:04):
And they were around with the uraniummining is how the Jeffrey city really
had its big boom and it's great bigpopulation move for all of that
mining and then once they closedown the uranium mine and they've.
Done some nice work reclaiming theland around there and trying to turn
it back into more of a natural habitat.
(38:25):
The city has, has largely emptied outand so it's sort of an odd town to
drive through that you can see thatthere's some people who are moving
in and trying to take advantageand, make opportunities out of it.
And then you can also see that forthe most part it's been abandoned.
Interesting how you would describe itas half ghost, half um, active town.
(38:50):
Yes.
a, it's a weird sort of feeling Ithink when you're driving through.
When looking at the history ofWyoming, what was the importance of the
ranchers as far as establishing someof these communities and these trade
routes, in, in the, in our history?
And did they have influence in otherways as well that, that are notable?
(39:12):
Oh, yes, definitely.
But, um, quite, quite a significanthistory with the ranchers, especially
with a lot of the cattlemen whoare coming up from Texas and
taking advantage of the open range.
And then once you have the Homestead Act,actually come into Wyoming and you have
homesteaders coming in and disrupting thatopen range has led to a lot of the early
(39:39):
conflicts that we have in the state whenwe're not, talking about the Indian Wars.
Of course, the Indian Wars are,the earliest conflicts that the
United States has in, in the area.
But talking about the Johnson County warin particular is thinking a lot about how
we're shifting from open range into Thesehomesteaders coming in, um, Ella Watson
(40:03):
and Jim Arville are great examples ofthat in Natrona County, that they, they
come in and they, um, they are a marriedcouple and they do what a lot of people
do, which is try and cheat the system.
They went in and they both applied for.
Land and receive their 150 acresand a very nice choice property
(40:25):
right on the Sweetwater River.
There were some large ranchers in thearea who were paying their, cow, cattle
hands to go out and make those claims sothat way they could buy them from them and
amass a large ranch in order to maintaintheir cattle and maintain their herd.
Which requires a lot moreland than 150 acres for sure.
(40:46):
and Ella Watson and Jim Arville, theydidn't want to sell out their land.
And so their neighbors, they sendthem poison pies that they didn't eat.
They fed to their dogsand killed their dogs.
And Ella Watson, she had purchased somecattle that had been passing through on
a cattle drive and they had hook rot.
And so they wouldn't have beenable to complete the drive.
(41:08):
So she had several cattlewith different brands on them.
And they use that as an excuse tosay that she was wrestling cattle
and they grabbed up her and Jim andthey were apparently just going to
try and scare them a little bit.
And She was trying to get them todrive down to Cheyenne to prove that
(41:29):
her bill of sale was legitimate.
And she was known as a, a woman who shewasn't going to sit quietly for sure.
She was going to tell it how it is.
And.
that, that got her into more troublethan she bargained for that night.
They took her, it's, very closeto Independence Rock, actually.
If you're standing on the boulderwhere they were, that you can
(41:51):
see Independence Rock from there.
And they lynched both her and her husband.
Oh yes, and so I believe that wasin the 1870s and that was just right
before the Johnson County war brokeout and the violence just north of
Natrona County over the same issues of.
(42:12):
accusations of cattle wrestling, butthe accusations of cattle wrestling
were really, masks for land grabsthat were happening and then poor
management of herds with some reallyhard winters that the cattle barons were
starting to get a little bit greedy inWyoming in the 18 seventies that they.
(42:32):
We're putting cattle into the marketthat were too young and trying to inflate
their numbers and after several hardwinters and they weren't able to reach.
The numbers that the Eastern marketswere expecting, that's when they start
blaming all of these wrestlers thatare around stealing these cattle.
(42:52):
And that's where the cattle have gone,not, not the hard winters and not
their poor management of the herds.
And that results in a, ina great deal of violence.
And that violence is what you're talkingabout is the Johnson County wars.
Yes, that's right.
Could you expand on whatthe Johnson County wars?
Were a little bit more thanthe time range of that.
(43:14):
Yes, definitely.
So we're looking at the 1870s in Wyomingwith the Johnson County wars, and we're
really looking at a lot of, um, governmentcorruption also that there was an
invasion that happened, but they broughtin a lot of the, former Texas Rangers
and people from out of state who theyhad convinced that they were going to.
(43:35):
Come in here as a, that they neededthem as a militia to, tamp down
these wrestlers that were coming.
And they had a, a hit list of peoplethat they wanted them to go after.
And some of those people were oneof the people at the top of the
list was a man named Nate champion.
And he was an outspokencritic of the cattle barons.
(43:58):
He was someone who was willingto testify in court against them.
And he was at the top,the top of their list.
And so this invading army, theycome up, by train from Colorado and.
There's evidence that they weresupported by not only the Wyoming
(44:19):
Stock Growers Association, but alsoby the governor at the time and some
of our state senators at the time.
And they did things likethey knew that the sheriff.
And Douglas would be verymuch opposed to this.
And so they had him, convenientlyout of town on a meeting when
(44:41):
the train came through Douglas.
And then once the train was in Casper,they, they got off the train and
they started on horseback up towardsBuffalo, Wyoming, and they were on
their way to Buffalo when they heardthat Nate champion and a friend.
Were at a ranch nearby and so they wentto, they surrounded him, he had a diary
(45:04):
and he writes, about how they shot andkilled his companion and he drugged
his companion into the cabin with him.
And he's writing this diary about howhe's going to try and make a break
for it once the sun goes down, and hehopes that he'll be able to make it
out there but he doesn't think thathe's going to be able to make it.
And he does, he makes his break forit and they, they shot him down dead.
(45:28):
And then at that point, the citizens inBuffalo had learned about this invading
army and they came to confront them.
And so the invaders, they ended up,sequestered out on a ranch, trying
to protect themselves in a defensiveposition, and they were surrounded by.
basically the citizens of Buffalothat were saying, we're not, we're not
(45:49):
going to allow you to come in here.
And, at that point, ourgovernor started to panic.
And he is asking for a militia to come inand, they actually, I believe that they
had to, that one of our state senatorshad to like try and go and wake up the
president, um, in order to get the U.
S.
militia to, to come.
(46:10):
They arrested the, the invaders.
and brought them to one of theforts where they were held mostly
for the invaders protection.
And most of those invaders thatthey did not see any sort of, legal
repercussions for their actions there.
Quite the
event in Wyoming history.
(46:31):
Yes.
Yes.
I could listen to you and talklike this all, all day long.
I love it.
I would recommend, um, readingband Didi of the planes.
It was written by, Asa Mercer.
He's a, he was a journalist atthe time and he was absolutely
(46:51):
disgusted with what had happenedand with what he, he was witnessing.
And so he writes this book.
And it was, banned in Wyoming.
There's a story about a, a wagon full ofthem being taken out of the state under
gunfire and them trying to destroy allcopies of the Spandidi at the Plains book.
(47:12):
but it's, I would highly recommend it.
They hit.
It's quite good.
And then John Davis is also,he's a recent historian.
He's currently working in Wyomingand he's written a fabulous
book on the Johnson County War.
Um, and that's thelatest scholarship on it.
And I would highlyrecommend that book as well.
How do you spell
ASA's first name?
(47:35):
ASA.
And it's Mercer, M E R C E R.
Okay.
And so he wrote that, when did he writethat book about the Johnson County wars?
He wrote it,
right about the same timethat it was all happening.
Um, right after it happenedis when he wrote that book.
So that's, um, contemporary with the
event.
You can still find a copy at the library?
Yes, you should be able tofind a copy in the library.
(47:56):
It is a little bit harder to find inWyoming than outside of the state.
or it used to be.
I think it's easier today than it, than it
was.
Oh, interesting.
Well, have you written a book?
I mean, how can people follow some ofthis work that you that you're doing?
Oh, yes, definitely.
I I've written several articlesnow with wild history dot org.
(48:18):
I started last september asan assistant editor with them.
They're a project of theWyoming Historical Society.
I think that if you want to supportindependent scholars like me or support
just scholarship on Wyoming history,that the best way to do that is to join
the Wyoming Historical Society, thatthey are a wonderful institution and
they have also given me a great deal ofsupport as I have started my own business
(48:42):
and started to dig into the historythat I, I received a Homeshore Research
Grant for my work on women's suffrage.
And again, working forthem as an assistant editor
has been really wonderful.
So I've written several articlesabout women office holders in
the West, like Ethel Stoner.
who, had a street brawl trying to,enforce prohibition in Cokeville, Wyoming.
(49:05):
And there was, Elizabeth Wileyin Greybull, Wyoming, who she ran
for mayor in order to chase the KuKlux Klan out of Greybull in 1924.
And she was successful, which is amazing.
And she, um, served for several,several terms as mayor in Greybull.
And so I have articles aboutthem and an article about the
(49:29):
state flag up on wyohistory.
org.
I'm hoping to write some morearticles about women's suffrage
and some of these other topics.
I also have several presentationsthat I do, commissioned presentations,
that's how I learned about Glen Rockcommunity, that the Converse County
Library commissioned me to do a historyon Converse County for their libraries.
(49:52):
And I have some presentationsthat I already have done and
ready that I have one on the stateflag, several on women's suffrage.
And I also have one where I dotalk about my experiences growing
up Jewish in Wyoming and thatdry timber of the Holocaust.
And, I'm happy to drive all over thestate and come to your community that
(50:13):
the county libraries are a great place.
They usually have the budget to hireme and Help make that affordable
and help me pay my bills, whichis important as a historian.
I hope everybody knows thateven historians need to eat.
and that I would love to, I would loveto come to your communities and to, to
share this history and to talk with you.
(50:34):
Well, Kylie, I'm so grateful thatyou're doing the work that you're
doing, finding this history andbringing it back to life, um, giving
it a life, in today's modern time.
And if people wanted to reachout to you and connect with you,
what is a great way to do that?
Oh yes, you can send me anemail at klmhistorian at gmail.
(50:57):
com or you can check out mywebsite kyliethehistorian.
com and there is a way to contactme on that website as well.
Super.
Well, I hope we get to meet somedaythat you're brought out here to
Jackson Hole to speak about Wyominghistory or some, some other history.
And so thank you for your time.
(51:18):
This has been an absolute joy, uh,getting to learn more about Wyoming
and getting to connect with you, Kylie.
I appreciate it.
Yes.
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate, this opportunityto share with your audience and, I look
forward to keeping up with your podcast.
I've enjoyed listening tosome of the past episodes.
Thank you.
You're
(51:38):
welcome.
Thank you, Kylie.
Great to see you today.
To learn more about Kylie McCormickand Wyoming's Vast and colorful
history, visit the Jackson Holeconnection.com, episode number 250.
I am very grateful to everybodywho's helped me keep the Jackson
Hole connection on the air.
The support that my wifeLaura gives me every day I.
(52:00):
The love and caring and of course lossof hair and new gray hairs that my
boys, William and Lewis helped me have.
And of course, Michael, who hasbeen the editor and marketing
director for so many years.
For me, your time is importantand I am grateful and appreciative
of you sharing your time.
(52:20):
Get out there and share this podcast.
Get out there and do something.
Rattle the world a little bit.
Be kind to folks, get out there,have conversations, and who knows?
Look for me down in the future andI'll let you know what comes up next.
In signing off for the Jackson HoleConnection, I'm Stephan Abrams.
Cheers folks.
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