July 28, 2025 • 54 mins
Jason Chapin takes us behind the curtain of his father's most enduring musical legacy. As the 50th anniversary of "Cats in the Cradle" approaches, Jason reveals the surprising true origins of the iconic song – a poem written by his mother Sandy about the distant relationship she observed between her first husband and his father.
What began as an observation of family dysfunction would eventually become Harry Chapin's signature hit, though not without skepticism. "My mother told my father there's no way this is gonna be a single," Jason shares. "Back then, hit songs were not about fathers and sons." Against all expectations, the song climbed to number one, cementing its place in music history.
The discussion weaves through Harry's multifaceted career, from his early days making Oscar-nominated documentaries to his late-blooming music career at age 30. Jason offers fascinating glimpses into his father's creative process, his relentless work ethic that produced 11 albums in just 10 years, and his equal dedication to humanitarian causes. We learn how Harry co-founded Why Hunger in 1975, performed approximately 100 benefit concerts annually, and became such a persistent presence lobbying Congress that lawmakers would try to avoid him – leading Harry to famously corner them in Capitol Building restrooms.
This episode paints a portrait of an artist deeply committed not just to his craft, but to making tangible change in the world. Jason explains how his father's legacy continues through the new documentary "Harry Chapin: Cats in the Cradle 50th Anniversary," featuring interviews with Billy Joel, Judy Collins, Whitfield Crane from Ugly Kid Joe, and many others who've been touched by his father's music.
Whether you're a longtime fan of Harry Chapin or discovering his work for the first time, this conversation offers valuable perspective on how one song can transcend generations, and how an artist's impact can extend far beyond their music. As Harry's credo reminds us: "When in doubt, do something."
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- Jay Franze: https://JayFranze.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tony Scott (00:05):
Welcome to The Jay Franze Show, a
behind-the-curtain look at theentertainment industry, with
insights you can't pay for andstories you've never heard.
Now here's your host, JayFranze.
Jay Franze (00:33):
And we are coming at you live.
I am Jay Franze and this isyour source for the latest news,
reviews and interviews.
So if you would like to join in, comment or fire off any
questions, please head over tojayfranze.
com.
All right, folks, tonight wehave a very special guest with
us.
We do.
We have a very special guest.
We have the son of a music icon.
(00:53):
We have the son of Harry ChapinHalen from the great state of
New York.
We have Jason Chapin.
Jason, sir, how are you?
Jason Chapin (01:04):
I'm great.
Jay Franze (01:04):
Jay.
Well, let's go ahead and justjump right in.
I know your dad.
He had a passion for makingdocumentaries.
Is that where your passion formaking this documentary came
from?
Jason Chapin (01:14):
Well, yeah, he was making documentaries before he
signed his record contract withElectra Records and he was
making films about boxing.
He actually got an Oscarnomination for a film called
Legendary Champions, which wasthe early years of boxing Really
unusual film and he also did abunch of commercials.
(01:37):
He also did a couple films forthe World Bank, one on Ethiopian
famine.
So I think we can talk abouthow that had an impact on him
later.
And he actually was working ona couple films now and then in
the middle of his music careerbecause he really enjoyed the
craft and he wanted to make adocumentary about his
(01:59):
grandfather, kenneth Burke,who's a pretty well-known person
in literary circles.
Jay Franze (02:04):
Now, we always say the key to a good song is a good
story, and your dad was amaster storyteller, so do you
feel as if his ability to tellstories helped him when it came
to making documentaries?
Jason Chapin (02:17):
Yeah, and he liked to meet people and he liked to
observe people and I think thatjust any given day he would see
something, hear something and itwould be a kernel for a song.
And a lot of you know differentexperiences he would piece
(02:38):
together songs.
A lot of the songs weresemi-biographical, but there are
a lot of songs that were alsojust about my mother.
So you know some of his lovesongs were about her.
He wrote a couple of songsabout different family members
which were purely biographical,but you know a couple of songs
that were about him and he alsoalways tried to have a couple of
(02:58):
little twists and turns.
So there are a couple of songswhere he told different
audiences that it meant onething and then he told another
audience it meant another thingand then he told family members
it was really about somethingelse.
So we're still trying to figureout some of those songs.
Jay Franze (03:12):
Now, do you think you'll ever find the truth?
Jason Chapin (03:16):
Maybe when we meet in heaven.
Jay Franze (03:18):
Now, it's my understanding that this is the
second documentary, so before weget too deep into this one, can
you tell us a little bit aboutthe first one?
Jason Chapin (03:28):
In 2020, we put out a documentary called Harry
Chapin when in Doubt DoSomething, which was all about
his life, his music and hishumanitarian work, and that was
the only film that we werereally planning on doing.
It was well-received and, youknow, we were happy to get it
out there.
But then we were reallyplanning on doing.
It was well received and wewere happy to get it out there.
But then we were thinking abouta couple anniversaries, and one
(03:51):
was the 50th anniversary of whyHunger, an organization my
father started in 1975 with BillAyers to try and end hunger and
poverty.
And right around then we alsorealized 1974 was when Cats in
the Cradle came out, went numberone and so celebrated its 50th
(04:11):
anniversary last year.
So we started working on a filmabout that because, believe it
or not, there are a lot ofpeople who know Cats in the
Cradle, but they don'tnecessarily know who wrote it
and they've never heard of HarryChapin.
So we're expecting the new filmHarry Chapin Cats in the Cradle
(04:33):
50th anniversary to probably beseen by more people and
appreciated by more peoplebecause of their connection to
the song.
Jay Franze (04:43):
Now, you mentioned that people aren't always
familiar with the person whowrote the song.
Do you ever go out and listento some of the cover tunes that
have been done?
Jason Chapin (04:52):
Yeah, I'm really fascinated whenever I hear a new
cover.
But you know, over the yearsit's been an incredible honor
and tribute to my father thatmany legends have recorded Cats
in the Cradle Everyone fromRicky Skaggs to Johnny Cash, to
(05:12):
Ugly Kid Joe, to this Irish bandcalled Celtic Thunder, to Judy
Collins, to Mandy Patinkin andalso Daryl McDaniel.
So you've got country, you'vegot rap, mandy Patinkin and also
Daryl McDaniel.
So you've got country, you'vegot rap, you've got rock, you've
got a little bit of everythingfolk, and so it's just one of
those songs that connects with alot of artists and connects
(05:34):
with a lot of music lovers.
And I don't know who's going todo it next, but we will welcome
it with open arms.
Jay Franze (05:40):
How do you feel about the Ugly Kid Joe version?
Jason Chapin (05:42):
Oh, I love it.
I was, let's see, I was in mylate 20s, you know.
When I first heard it I thought, wow, that's an interesting
take.
And then I saw it climb thecharts and it peaked at number
three.
And I thought, wow, a rockversion and peaking at number
three.
And then it's even betterbecause the band would perform
(06:06):
in the New York area and mymother went to meet them, went
backstage and got to know themand they were as nice as could
be.
And then, when we were puttingtogether the new film, we
reached out to the agent and heput us in touch with Whitfield
Crane and he is the lead singerand he was all in.
(06:30):
He said what can I do?
I wanted help.
So he not only did an interviewand it's it's a big part of the
film but he also gave us abunch of footage from concerts
and he tours all over.
So he was in Europe and and soa lot of fans at his concerts in
different countries, differentnationalities, would talk about
their connection to the song andwith people with Russian
(06:52):
accents, Finnish accents, Danishaccents talking about that song
and singing that song, that'san amazing thing.
Jay Franze (07:00):
Now, I grew up around the Ugly Kid Joe release
and I really do love it.
I absolutely do.
It's my style of music.
I love the song, but there'ssomething about your dad's
version that you can reallyconnect to.
Jason Chapin (07:11):
You can kind of feel that pain was always
writing poetry as an adult, andwhen my mother and father met,
my father was giving her guitarlessons and my father couldn't
stop talking.
He would talk about anythingwith anybody, so instead of
(07:34):
really focusing on the guitarlist, and he was always telling
my mother I write poetry, and sohe would share some poetry with
her.
I've got a new song.
He would share a new song withher.
I don't know how much teachinghe was doing, but they really
had a connection, a creativeconnection, because they both
like to write poetry, and myfather taught my mother how to
(07:54):
write songs because my fatherwas writing songs for a TV show
that my uncle Tom did.
It was a children's show calledMake-A-Wish that was on on
Saturday mornings and thenSunday mornings, and so my
father was kind of juggling alot of things, couldn't always
finish the homework, get thework done in time, so he was
(08:14):
asking my mother to help him,and it's actually my mother who
was the one who started the songCats in the Cradle and it
started as a poem.
She showed it to my father andhe said well, that's nice.
And then my younger brother,josh, was born and he was
looking for some new material.
He was working on a new albumand digging through the drawer
(08:36):
and saw the poem again and said,hmm, this has more meaning to
me now.
And so he converted the poem toa song.
And if you look at the single,if you look at the album, it's
co-written by Harry and SandyChapin.
And another thing that's kindof unusual is the song was on
the album Verities and BoulderDash and it was the third single
(09:00):
on the song.
And if you think about it backin the 70s and you know, my
mother told my father there's noway this is gonna be a single,
there's no way this haspotential because it's about a
father and a son.
And back then, you know, hitsongs were not about fathers and
sons, they were abouteverything.
They were about parties, theywere about cars, they were about
(09:20):
love, they were not about, youknow, a dysfunctional
relationship between a fatherand a son.
And sure enough it worked itsway up to number one.
Jay Franze (09:30):
It was your mother's poem that was the inspiration
behind the song, but that poemwas written about a previous
relationship, correct?
Jason Chapin (09:38):
Yeah.
So my mother's first marriagewas to Jim Cashmore and Jim's
father was John Cashmore, whowas the borough president of
Brooklyn.
He was heavily into politicsand Jim was his only son and
when my mother married him sheobserved, you know, she loved
Jim.
They got married, of course,but she also loved the
(10:00):
personality of Jim's father John.
But she also loved thepersonality of Jim's father John
and she noticed that they had avery distant relationship.
She would tell stories abouthow she'd be sitting at the
table and they wouldn't talk toeach other.
They would talk through Jim'smother, they would talk through
Jim's father and my mother waslike the interpreter and she
(10:21):
thought this is really strange.
She just couldn't understandhow they were father and son,
but they really did not have aclose, loving relationship yeah,
that's unfortunate.
Jay Franze (10:31):
I have three kids of my own and I could not possibly
imagine not having thatrelationship with them.
It's funny I had kids later inlife and I always said, if I do
have kids, that I would not letsomething like this happen to me
.
And here we are, years laterhaving the conversation about
(10:52):
the importance of the song.
Now we mentioned Ugly Kid Joeand you said that Whitefield the
singer.
He did an interview to be partof that documentary.
Who else was part of thatdocumentary?
Jason Chapin (11:02):
Oh, it's a great list.
We've got Billy Joel, we've gotRobert Lamb, judy Collins,
manny Penkin, daryl McDanielsand we've got Whit Crane from
Ugly Kid Joe, as I mentioned.
We've got E Schneider fromTwisted Sister.
Jay Franze (11:22):
He's great.
What's the connection there?
Jason Chapin (11:25):
Well, he's a Long Islander and you know we lived
on Long Island, in Huntington,for many years and he also
became a supporter of a foodbank my father started in 1980
called Long Island Cares.
So he was deeply connected tothe organization and became
connected to my father's legacyorganization and became
connected to my father's legacy,and so we reached out to him
(11:48):
and he said I'd be happy to dothe interview and it's great.
And then we've got a few otherpeople DJ Bob Buckman, who's
with Sirius XM now, but he waswith BAB, big radio station on
Long Island, and we've gotfamily members.
And then what's really cool iswe've got reaction videos, and I
didn't really know aboutreaction videos until a couple
(12:10):
years ago.
And so you take you takesomeone on youtube who's got
their own channel and someonefeeds them some songs that they
know that the dj has never heardof, and then he plays the song
and you see him react to thesong.
And so you got people in their20s who have no idea who harry
is, they have no idea about catsin the cradle, and they're
(12:31):
listening to it.
And then the tears startpouring and you're thinking, wow
, you know, this is.
This is fun to see peoplelisten to a song for the first
time and get their their firstimpressions I love those videos.
Jay Franze (12:44):
I actually like the ones that get really technical,
go beyond just the story of thesong but get into more of the
melody and the chord changes,and such One of the other people
that was interviewed for theoriginal documentary was Pat
Benatar.
How did that come about?
Jason Chapin (12:58):
Yeah, she's in the first film and the second film
and she was just honored by whyHunger, the organization my
father co-founded, at their 50thanniversary gala.
She and Neil, her husband, havebeen big supporters of why
Hunger, long Island Cares, and abig part of my father's legacy.
It's an interesting story.
(13:19):
So Pat was an up and comingmusician on Long Island, played
at a bar in our hometown,huntington.
My father was not performingthat night but he went to the
bar and he was listening to thisyoung talent and at the time he
was working on a musical and heheard Pat's voice and said, wow
, it's really unique and she'sgot a lot of personality.
(13:41):
So he asked her to audition andshe auditioned for the musical
and that's when theirrelationship started and you
know they kept in touch and PatBenatar's career took off and
fast forward to 1987, my fatherhad passed and they had a
tribute concert for him atCarnegie Hall and so they asked
(14:02):
a bunch of artists to performdifferent songs and Pat Benatar
asked to perform Shooting Starand she does a remarkable
rendition and she's performed itin her concerts over the years
and at the Hawaiian Hungerfundraiser gala she performed
that as well, as Love is aBattlefield.
Jay Franze (14:24):
She really is truly amazing.
She's one of the best ever.
Yeah, but one of the otherpeople you mentioned was billy
joel, and I know he's been goingthrough some health struggles,
so what was it like with him onthe set?
Jason Chapin (14:40):
well, it was.
Um, it was part of theinterview we did in 2020, so it
wasn't a recent interview.
Fortunately, there was aninterview we did with Bill Maher
and gave an update.
I guess he still has somebalance issues but he's
following doctor's orders andfeels okay otherwise and
(15:01):
hopefully he's going to make afull recovery.
Jay Franze (15:04):
Well, that's good to hear.
You also mentioned why Hunger.
Now, why Hunger was started byyour dad back in 1975 and it
still exists today.
So can you tell us a little bitabout that?
Jason Chapin (15:17):
Yeah, so I'm going to go back to my mother my
mother, I think.
She always saw my fatherhitting the road and doing all
these concerts, and then hewould come home and kind of not
know what to do.
And my mother was gettinginvolved in lots of community
activities and organizations andso she started nudging him,
saying, well, you got to findsomething to get involved with.
(15:38):
And it was right around thenthat he met Bill Ayers, who at
the time was a Catholic priestand had a rock radio show on
Long Island and my father was onthe show and they had a great
connection.
They had a lot in common andthey started a friendship and
they were both really lookingfor something that they could
(16:00):
work on together.
And Bill was instrumental inhelping my father understand
that he could use his fame andfortune for good and so kind of
motivated him to say, well, Ineed to do something.
And so he started theorganization with Bill in 1975
with the lofty goal of endingworld hunger.
And they really stuck with it.
(16:21):
My father did about 100 benefitconcepts a year, poured a lot of
money into the organization toget it off the ground and you
know the thing is he passed awaysix years later, in 1981.
And the organization could havefolded.
But there were a bunch ofheroes.
My father's manager, ken Cragen, also managed Kenny Rogers and
(16:41):
Kenny Rogers stepped in, did abenefit concert and supported.
One of their programs was theHarry Chapin Media Awards.
And then you know, of courseboards do their part.
So the boards and staff andvolunteers and supporters kept
it going and a lot of othermusicians also stepped in.
So it's not only 50 years oldbut it's growing and it's
(17:04):
getting stronger and it's neededmore today than ever before.
Jay Franze (17:09):
Wow, that is definitely impressive and your
dad has done so much.
And as we talk about your dad,he passed away in 1981 and it
seems like he had such a longcareer, but he was only 38 at
the time, correct?
Jason Chapin (17:22):
Yeah, he was 38.
And he got a late start in life.
I tell people that you know hewas not an overnight success.
He started in film and thenthat kind of petered out and
then he always loved music.
He grew up playing music withhis brothers, tom and Steve, and
they had their own band, theChapin Brothers, but they put
out an album that didn't selland then my father was the
(17:46):
opening act for his brothers.
His brothers kicked him out ofthe band and they rented this
place called the Village Gate inthe music scene in Manhattan
downtown and my father opened asa solo artist for a couple
nights and he was horrible.
I mean there were about fourpeople in the theater venue and
he was horrible.
I mean there were about fourpeople in the theater venue and
he said I got to figure this out.
(18:07):
So he put together a band inabout a week's time and he had a
bunch of songs that he hadwritten and he just decided to
go for it and that attractedJack Holtzman and Clive Davis
and he was in the midst of abidding war and next thing, you
know, he's got a 10-album dealwith Electric Record.
And that was when he was almostI think he was 27.
(18:31):
And I think that in 72, he was30 years old when he had his
first hit, and that's pretty oldfor a musician who's trying to
make a go of it and so he passedaway at 38.
And so he had done 11 albums in10 years, did 2,000 concerts
(18:54):
and he did a bunch of otherstuff.
But yeah, it was a very briefcareer.
Jay Franze (18:59):
It was very brief, but man, he did so much in that
time.
Why did he get kicked out ofyour brother's band or his
brother's band?
Jason Chapin (19:07):
He um, he talked too much.
He wrote these really longsongs that were really weird and
his brothers were going in adifferent direction.
They were playing kind of thesoft rock music and they just
thought that they had a vocalistand they had a guitarist and he
just didn't fit in anymore.
Jay Franze (19:29):
Do they still play?
Jason Chapin (19:30):
Yeah, they do something called the Harry
Chapin Family Concert and myUncle Tom.
He's got three Grammys and he'sput out a ton of albums on his
own.
He's a well-known artist on hisown but he also loves playing my
father's music and theyperformed together for a number
of years.
My father welcomed him into theband after his career took off,
(19:54):
as well as his brother, steve,so they were reunited, did have
a happy ending, and after myfather died, fans wanted to hear
the music and so they startedplaying these tribute concerts
and then they started puttingtogether the Harry Chapin family
concerts and it's grown so itincludes my younger sister, jen,
tom's daughters, abigail andLily, steve's son, jonathan, and
(20:18):
then John Wallace, originalbassist.
He's in the group, as is HowardFields, the original drummer,
and then there are a bunch ofother musicians in the group and
they play up and down the EastCoast and they play out in the
Midwest and I'm sure that ifthere's a big theater and enough
requests they'll get out to theWest Coast and they'd be happy.
(20:41):
Actually, they do this a bunchof concerts up in Nova Scotia in
August.
So my Uncle Steve and Uncle Tomhave homes up there and they do
a bunch of concerts in Canadaas well.
Jay Franze (20:54):
I've only been to Nova Scotia once, but man, what
a beautiful place.
I know everything has turnedout okay now, but at the time
when your dad was kicked out ofthe band, were there any hard?
Jason Chapin (21:07):
feelings?
My father.
He got used to setbacks andfailure.
As I said, film didn't work outthe way he wanted.
He wanted to write a greatAmerican novel.
That never happened.
He wrote a lot of poetry andpublished poetry books, but I
can't say they were big sellers.
You know, early on, before hegot his record contract, he had
(21:27):
some weird dream of becoming anAir Force pilot.
So he was actually at the AirForce Academy and about six
weeks in he said this is not forme, I don't believe discharged.
And then he said I got to go tocollege.
So he went to Cornell.
And then he said I got to go tocollege.
So he went to Cornell, gotkicked out, went back to Cornell
, got kicked out again.
(21:48):
So he was used to failure.
He was used to, you know,getting knocked down and getting
back up.
So no hard feelings.
Jay Franze (21:57):
No hard feelings.
Well, you mentioned a coupleother things.
Why did he get kicked?
Jason Chapin (22:03):
out of Cornell.
It was a combination of things.
He didn't like to go to class,he didn't like to hand in papers
, didn't like to show up forexams, because he really was
into music and also, frankly, Ithink, he was pretty depressed
because he just didn't know whathe wanted to do with his life.
And he also spent a lot of timeat this bar playing pool and
(22:24):
making a little money, so hejust it never really connected.
I think he was highlyintelligent and he got a couple
doctorates but did not graduatefrom college.
Jay Franze (22:38):
Yeah, he'd have to be pretty intelligent to get
accepted into Cornell in thefirst place.
Yeah.
Now, the other thing youmentioned was he was honorably
discharged from the Air Forceafter only six weeks.
How does that happen?
Jason Chapin (22:53):
Well, he told a couple stories about that.
He said that he thought that itwould be really cool to fly
jets and then he realized thatif you're in the Air Force,
you're flying jets but you'rebombing people and that just
didn't work for him.
He didn't want to kill peopleand think you know, pretty
immature when he decided to goand he didn't really think it
(23:15):
through.
And also I think that they werehappy to see him go because I
think they found that he was apain in the butt.
He was just, you know,complaining and you know, giving
him a hard time and and so fast, forward, forward.
His music career takes off andhe's playing at different places
and he got to play at the AirForce Academy a couple of times
(23:35):
and he loved talking about howhe was there.
He was in debt and they kickedhim out and he got to come back
and perform and they would cheerhim on, and so it came full
circle and it had a happy ending.
Jay Franze (23:49):
Now, I know he was known for doing benefits, but
did he ever do any of the USOtours?
Jason Chapin (23:55):
He did not do USO tours, but my mother's brother,
rocky Gaston, was in the AirForce, so that's pretty ironic.
And so he was stationed inEurope, in Germany, and he had a
lot of connections, a lot ofcontacts.
So we would go on a familyvacation to Germany and my
(24:17):
father would play at a bunch ofAir Force bases.
And I remember also he wasplaying a concert on the USS
Forrestal, an aircraft carrier.
At the time it was just off ofNaples, italy, and so he got a
tour and he did a concert.
So there were just a lot oftimes that he did perform for
(24:38):
different military bases indifferent countries.
Jay Franze (24:42):
How did he begin working with the White House?
Jason Chapin (24:44):
Yeah, so he starts White Hunger in 75 and he's
pushing hard.
He's just trying to figure outhow he can get this organization
to help as many people aspossible.
And he was reading up a lot.
He was trying to figure out whowere the experts and who could
help him make the most of hisorganization.
(25:07):
So he connected with this woman, frances Morlepe, who's still a
leader in the movement, and healso was asked by a bunch of
members of Congress to dobenefit concerts and so I think
the light bulb went off and hesaid you know, there's a lot of
money in DC and there are a lotof powerful people in DC.
I'm going to spend some timedown there and lobby them to see
(25:28):
if they can help me.
And he was also very goodfriends with John Denver and
John Denver was very involved intrying to end hunger early in
his career.
So they would have someconversations.
And then Bill Ayers was alsoinvolved in the strategy
sessions and my father at thetime involved in the strategy
(25:50):
sessions and my father at thetime you know he was lobbying
everybody and he would hang outin the men's room in the Capitol
and in different legislativebuildings.
Because you know, word gotaround that Harry Chapin was
visiting everybody to try andget them to do something and
they started to avoid him.
So he would hang out in themen's room and try and pin him
down.
And so he was trying to pindown Senator Patrick Leahy from
(26:14):
Vermont, and not only did he pinhim down, but they actually
struck up a friendship.
So Pat Leahy became his mentor,his guide, to kind of navigate
through Washington, and theycame up with the idea of
petitioning President Carter fora presidential commission.
And they finally had the meeting.
They had an initial meeting inthe cabinet room and then they
(26:35):
had a meeting to make the finalpush.
And Patrick Leahy tells areally funny story about how,
you know, they start theconversation and President
Carter says well, you know, Ithink that's a fine idea and
let's do it.
And then my father heard that,but he couldn't stop talking.
He kept giving him more reasonswhy they should do the
(26:56):
commission and Pat Lay had toelbow him and said you already
got.
Yes, don't blow it Right.
Jay Franze (27:03):
Was your dad political at all?
Jason Chapin (27:06):
He was political.
And again, my mother nudged himwhen we were living in another
town on Long Island, pointLookout, and got him to
volunteer for a campaign with acongressional incumbent who was
running for re-election.
So he was the speechwriter andthey give you about nine titles
as a volunteer and he was alsowriting a bunch of literature
(27:29):
titles as a volunteer and he wasalso writing a bunch of
literature.
So I think that was somethingthat he felt, you know, was
challenging but also worthwhile.
And then, once he reallycommitted to fighting hunger and
poverty, he met a lot ofmembers of the House and Senate
and struck up a lot offriendships Senator Bill Bradley
and Representative Ben Gilmanand Senator Byron Dorgan and
(27:52):
many others and so they becamepart of this group that were
always talking about politics.
But my father also was veryproud to say that he would do
benefit concerts for Democrats,republicans, independents,
anybody, as long as they were onhis side trying to end hunger.
Jay Franze (28:09):
Yeah, being a nonpartisan cause, that would
make sense anyway.
Absolutely.
You got a question in the chat.
Were there any othersinger-songwriters that your dad
looked up to and liked tofollow?
Jason Chapin (28:21):
Yeah, you know he got to play with a lot of
artists Billy Joel in the firstfilm, second film about how you
know they.
They did a lot of concerts.
Initially Billy Joel opened formy father and then my father
would open for Billy Joel.
They had a lot in common.
Also, my father, through KenCragen, had a very good
(28:42):
friendship, did a bunch ofconcerts with Kenny Rogers, and
then I mentioned John Denver.
They shared the same managerfor a while and they had a good
friendship and, I think,recognized each other as
singer-songwriters andsongwriters and also my father
was again trying to raise moneyfor why Hunger.
(29:04):
So he did a concert and it's onYouTube and it's called Four
Together.
It was in Detroit, michigan,1977.
He did a concert with JohnDenver, james Taylor and Gordon
Lightfoot.
It was a round stage and theytook turns playing each other's
songs and unfortunately theydidn't video it and there's just
(29:24):
some rough recordings of it.
But yeah, he loved all of them.
Judy Collins he also one of hisidols and one of his heroes was
Pete Seeger.
They played a lot of concertstogether.
Jay Franze (29:40):
Those are some pretty impressive names, but
they all have that samesinger-songwriter feel to them.
But you did mention Billy Joeland also a priest that was into
rock and roll.
Did your dad have that rock androll side to him?
Jason Chapin (29:54):
yeah, most most people that they, if they've
heard of Perry Chapin, they knowtaxi, they know cats and cradle
and ironically, almost nobodyyou know knows that he had a
follow up hit to Taxi calledSequel.
Taxi peaked at 24.
Sequel came out in 1980, peakedat 23, and then he had another
(30:17):
big hit, wold.
But he had a lot of other fanfavorites and and he had a bunch
of songs that I think were veryrock-ish and some of them are
really intense.
He's got a song called Sniper,he's got another song called
Bummer.
There's a tribute concert andthese guys love to play another
(30:39):
song called the Rock and he hasother songs that I think are
country.
He did an album after Verity'sand Bulldash's album.
It was a couple albums latercalled Living Room Suite and he
was really at that pointstarting to follow and really
enjoy country music.
So Living Room Suite is kind ofhis country music album.
(31:00):
And then he also, you know hecame from the folk background,
so a lot of his songs werefolkish and he did not like
disco and he used to always talkabout how he didn't like disco
in concert.
So you're not going to find anydisco songs but you'll
definitely find a couple othergenres.
Jay Franze (31:17):
Who would be the most unexpected artist that he
followed?
Jason Chapin (31:21):
Well, you know, because he was signed with
Elektra, he would get a bunch ofElectra artists and so he
listened to their stuff and Idon't, I don't know what the
wildest thing that he picked onhis own, but he had five kids
and we all listened to differentmusic and I think he thought we
were going through a stage.
(31:42):
But, you know, I definitely hadmy rock stage.
I was, you know, as a teenager,and still am, a big Led
Zeppelin fan, rolling Stones fanwho bad company?
You can go right down the list.
And so I think my father hearda lot of rock music because his
kids were listening to it.
Jay Franze (32:01):
Well, he was able to identify Pat Benatar's talent.
Jason Chapin (32:04):
Yeah.
Jay Franze (32:05):
You also mentioned Led Zeppelin.
What are your feelings now withthe reunion?
Jason Chapin (32:10):
You know, I love the documentary that just came
out and I love some of thethings Robert Plant, alison
Krauss just the fact that he'sbeen out there every year just
touring and Jimmy Page genius,almost unmatched talent.
And you know we don't have JohnBottom anymore but we've got
(32:36):
his son, so it's almost the fullband.
So, yeah, I think it's great.
I'd love to see him.
I'm sure that they'll sell outthink it's great.
Jay Franze (32:49):
I'd love to see them .
I'm sure that they'll sell out.
That's funny.
Chris Franz was on the show.
He's the guitar tech for JasonBonham's team and when they came
through town I got a chance tosee them and it was an amazing
show.
It was the Led Zeppelinexperience and it was just
amazing.
All right, let's take it back.
We mentioned at the beginningthat your dad had a love for
documentaries, so what inspiredyou to put this documentary
together and what is your role?
Jason Chapin (33:10):
So it's funny, my father wrote this song called
Circle and he ended his concertswith the song Circle.
So a lot of things come fullcircle.
So Bill Ayers at the time wasrunning why Hunger and met a
couple people who were helpinghim with a benefit concert.
A guy named Rick Korn and SABarron became friends of Bill's,
(33:34):
worked together on a fewprojects, and so Rick said to
Bill one night how come nobody'sever done a documentary about
Harry Chapin?
And Bill said I don't know, butwhy don't you?
And so Bill connected Rick andI and Bill said I don't know,
but why don't you?
And so Bill connected Rick andI and Rick and SA came to my
house and I invited my motherover to discuss the possibility
of a documentary.
(33:54):
And Rick and SA show up with acamera and started interviewing
my mother and I on the spot.
And so somehow we realized thatI think we were starting to make
a film and I had never made afilm.
I don't have a background infilm, but I thought it was
pretty cool that I'm making afilm about my father who had a
(34:16):
film career, and then, you know,to be a producer of that film
was, you know, a once in alifetime.
But then I was asked to getinvolved and help with the
second film.
So here I am, a producer againand uh, and it was also at my
mother's insistence that anyprofits, uh, with both films
(34:40):
will be shared with the threecharities.
Why hunger, long island caresand a foundationary champion
foundation, which was startedafter my father passed.
Jay Franze (34:50):
That is very cool that your mother is insisting it
be done.
Yeah, now you say you're theproducer, so what is the role of
a producer when it comes tothis documentary?
Jason Chapin (35:00):
My role was really to help raise money to help
line up the interviews, so I putout a lot of requests to ask
people if they would beinterviewed and also help us
promote the film.
And then we have a lot ofmeetings where we have to figure
out the marketing and thepromotion PR firm and
(35:24):
coordinating the interviews andthe press package.
And then there's a lot ofdiscussions about the trailer
and we spent a lot of timelining up a distributor, mvd.
So we're very excited abouthaving them as our partner and
film's going to be releasedNovember 4th or thereabouts and
(35:45):
it's going to be on all themajor streaming platforms Apple
TV, amazon Prime and a bunch ofothers.
It's also going to be releasedon DVD.
It's not going to have atheater release, but we've also
done some fundraisers where wedo a private screening, where we
do a private screening, andit's also going to be in a film
(36:10):
festival.
August 8th the Long IslandMusic and Entertainment Hall of
Fame is having their first filmfestival, southampton Film
Festival.
So hoping we can hopefully dowell in those and get a little
momentum going right up to therelease.
Jay Franze (36:24):
Now you mentioned you had to handle the outreach
and the PR and the marketing.
What was the hardest part inthat process?
Jason Chapin (36:33):
I think fundraising is really hard
because typically you knoweveryone's got their own causes
or you know they're connected tosomething and so you're asking
them to give money to a project,and typically documentaries
don't make money.
So it's not like if you asksomeone to invest in the film
(36:56):
that there's a guarantee thatthey're going to get the money
back.
But fortunately, you knowincredible generosity.
A lot of fans wanted to donateand contribute and also uh, we
did a lot of uh, we did go fundme and we also did um, you know
some other things to raiseawareness.
(37:16):
So you know a couple hundredpeople, but each and every one
of them is important andcontributed to make it possible.
And then we also had to line upsome folks who I think, are
going to end up being sponsors.
So that's also another item onthe checklist that we've been
focusing on.
Jay Franze (37:38):
Now you've mentioned the charities and the
organizations that you've had achance to work with, but those
are all based around a cause.
Do you find it harder to raisemoney for a movie?
Jason Chapin (37:49):
Yes and no.
There are some people who, just, you know, they've been
donating to my father'scharities and this was just
another thing that they wantedto be a part of.
There are also other people whowere fans of my father's music,
didn't know about the charitiesand they thought, wow, you know
, this is the way that I couldalso support the charities, so
(38:09):
that was a factor.
They're also, you know, justfriends of friends and they're
also family members whocontributed.
So, you know, you just put theword out.
You know you don't twist arms.
But when people say, you know,they got a few questions and you
answer the questions and theysay, yeah, I'll do it, it's a
great feeling.
And also, you know, there aresome folks who contribute to the
(38:33):
film, who are also in the film,so I think that was also a
bonus for them.
Jay Franze (38:39):
So you've mentioned crowdsourcing and you've
mentioned fan involvement whenit comes to the crowdsourcing.
So how did you let the fansknow that this was even an
option?
Jason Chapin (38:51):
So you have to, you know, go on the social media
platforms and get the word out.
We also have some, we've gotsome large fan lists, so we were
doing some e-blasts and alsosome of it's word of mouth, and
then we put together a websiteand we put together a trailer,
and so you just keep pluggingaway and just trying to reach
(39:14):
more and more people indifferent ways and then
eventually you get to the goaland then you're off to the races
.
Jay Franze (39:22):
So you mentioned that documentaries don't
typically make money and thatthe investors may not even see
return on their investment.
But earlier you mentioned thatyour mother insisted on giving
the profit to charity.
So how can you ensure that thisdocumentary is going to be
different and that there's goingto be money to give to the
(39:44):
charities when it's all over?
Jason Chapin (39:47):
No guarantees.
Again, you know it's a heavylift, but the distributor's got
to make sure that it gets on asmany platforms as possible and
also that we've got a PR firm,so they want to make sure as
many people know about it aspossible.
And then, you know, we've got alot of great musicians, so we
(40:08):
will ask them if they can helppromote the film.
And then we're also going to dowe call them docu-concerts,
where we're going to ask somemusicians to perform, we're
going to show some clips of thefilm and they're also going to
be fundraisers for the charities.
And then we'll also put a lotof information on social media
and ask friends and family toshare all the content and make
(40:33):
sure that all of their networksknow about it.
And then we cross our fingers.
When we released the first filmit was during COVID we thought
that, you know, everyone wouldbe dying to see our film.
It turns out there were a lotof other films coming out at the
same time and, uh, you know, sothere's a lot of competition.
But we're also I think we've,we're pretty confident that a
(40:55):
lot of people have heard of thesong and, uh, they see the
trailer and they hear some goodthings.
They're going to want to seethe film.
Jay Franze (41:03):
Now you mentioned the movie being distributed out
to the streaming services.
Yeah, how do the streamingservices pay you?
Is it based on streams, a flatfee advertising?
How does that process work?
Jason Chapin (41:19):
I am not an expert , but there are different
platforms and different payingmethods.
So if it's on something likeNetflix, then it's basically a
cost sharing.
They show it and then a numberof people watch it, and then
they split some of the money.
And then there are also otherplatforms where there's
(41:40):
advertisements.
So the advertisers arebasically paying for a lot of it
and then sharing some of that.
And then there are others whereit's basically renting it.
So you basically say, ok, Iwant to watch this film and
you're going to pay whatever itis $9.99.
And then, or you can buy it,and also with DVDs, that's also
(42:03):
a profit sharing arrangement.
Dvds that's also a profitsharing arrangement.
So there are a bunch ofdifferent ways that the money
comes in and then you just gotto wait because they don't all
pay instantly.
You have to do all thesequarterly and semi-annually
(42:24):
statements and it's allcomplicated.
But yeah, that's what thedistributors do.
They keep track of all that?
Jay Franze (42:30):
Yeah, it definitely is a convoluted process these
days, but you mentioned themusic.
Was all of the music in themovie from your dad, or did we
have any guest appearances?
Jason Chapin (42:43):
Well, the music is basically from the catalog and
we've got some concert videosthat we were able to use and
then he was on a number of shows.
So we were able to get some ofthose clips, some of those
videos, and also we have somefrom the 1987 Carnegie Hall
tribute concert and then we havea bunch of clips and this is
(43:05):
really fun.
My daughter, katie, is prettygood with computers and I asked
her a few years ago because Iknew there were all these TV
shows, movies, commercials thatused the song and I asked her to
put together a montage and it'son YouTube.
It's a Harry Chapin Cats in theCradle montage and it shows all
(43:25):
of the you know TV shows,everything from modern family to
to some of the cartoons andthen some of the commercials and
some of the movies, like Shrek,the third three, and I saw it
in show yeah.
So you know, just having abunch of those clips in the film
(43:49):
is a lot of fun and you know, Ithink my daughter's you know
she gets a credit because sheput together the montage and
they took some clips out of themontage.
Jay Franze (44:00):
Again very nice.
Jason Chapin (44:02):
It's pretty funny to have Cats in the Cradle and
the Simpsons Right.
Jay Franze (44:06):
Or Shrek or any of the others.
You mentioned having to puttogether a trailer Now, as the
person who has to be the one togo out and promote the movie,
how much say do you have in thefinal trailer?
Jason Chapin (44:19):
Close to zero.
I mean, basically that's Rickand Essay's domain, but they
would send us different versionsand ask us what we liked.
And you know I'm not a heavyeditor, I think they're the pros
.
So I didn't really make a lotof suggestions.
But you know, basically even mygeneral thoughts thumbs up and
it was a wrap.
Jay Franze (44:40):
Yeah, I can definitely see why you might not
be involved in the editing orthe creative process, but I
would think you would need to beinvolved in the overall
approval, because that's whatyou're going to use to then
market the documentary.
Jason Chapin (44:53):
Yeah, I mean, if my instinct said, oh my God,
this is not good, then I wouldhave told them.
But I think they did a greatjob and I don't think there was
anything I could add to it.
Jay Franze (45:02):
Yeah, it would be hard to sell it.
Jason Chapin (45:14):
Yeah, it'd be hard to sell it.
Looking back at the documentaryand your life itself and the
time you spent with your dad, doyou have any memorable moments
that you could share with us?
Birthday celebration?
So we were, you know, talking alittle bit about my father and
I reflected on how you know hecame into my life.
He was my stepfather before hebecame my father and my earliest
(45:36):
memories are playing sportswith him.
He was a sports nut, lovedwatching sports, playing sports,
so I got really hooked onsports because of him, played
lots of sports in high school,still play a lot of sports and I
have so many great memories ofplaying football in the backyard
or tennis or baseball or golf,and you know it's a big part of
(45:59):
the time that we spent together.
And also just a lot of memoriesof going to different concerts
with him.
And I remember another time hewas doing a TV special, so I
went with him to London becausehe was interviewing Peter
Sellers and so I just have allthese memories of these very
(46:20):
special times with him and it'sjust.
I think that there are just alot of things that I think he
influenced in me.
Obviously, you know I work fora non-profit, very involved with
the charities and very focusedon doing my part, doing
something to end a hunger.
So you know, he kind of um, heleft too soon, but he also kind
(46:45):
of uh, got us all involved inwhat he's doing and we're all
trying to do our part.
Jay Franze (46:50):
We often discuss the decisions that need to be made
when it comes to having children.
Do you take those children onthe road or do you leave them at
home?
From a child's point of view,did you enjoy your time on the
road?
Jason Chapin (47:04):
Yeah, we combined a lot of family vacations with
him doing mini tours because Ithink he just needed to perform,
he just needed to get up onstage.
And then there were some timeswhere there were just, you know,
mini trips where it was justfamily time.
Like you know, we would go upto Vermont and go skiing.
So it was kind of a mix, butyeah, it was fun.
(47:24):
It was fun going to theconcerts, sometimes sitting in
the audience, sometimes beingbackstage, and it was also a lot
of fun whenever he was playingnew material, just because he
was always anxious to get thefan reaction.
Jay Franze (47:37):
Did you enjoy seeing your dad's success?
Jason Chapin (47:41):
Absolutely.
I couldn't be prouder.
I couldn't be prouder, couldn'thave been happier with him
getting all of the recognitionthat he was craving for.
Did you know it at the time?
(48:01):
No, no, no.
I didn't know what was going on.
I didn't know about you know, Iwas just a little kid and so I
didn't really know A lot aboutconcerts, didn't know about him
being on Johnny Carson andputting out these albums.
I just I didn't know.
He was my only dad, really, soI didn't really know what the
other dads were doing, but Ijust thought it was a little
(48:24):
strange because I didn't knowanyone else who did that.
Jay Franze (48:27):
I always laugh.
I have three daughters.
I have a 15-year-old, a10-year-old and a 3-year-old and
I always ask them when anartist comes through town if
they want to go and check outthe show and typically they say
no.
But lately my 10-year-old hastaken me up on it a couple of
times and I've taken her to seethe Oak Ridge Boys and Brooks
(48:48):
and Dunn and maybe a few othersand I'm afraid now to take her
to see a concert where I don'tknow somebody and she doesn't
get treated like a rock star.
Jason Chapin (48:56):
Well, also, I have a feeling your other kids are
going to say wait a second,that's special time with dad.
So you may get a few others whoare going to sign up.
Jay Franze (49:05):
Right Now, I can see that happening too.
Alright, sir.
Well, we do this thing here wecall Unsung Heroes, where we
take a moment to shine the lighton somebody that's worked
behind the scenes or somebodywho may have supported you along
the way.
Do you have anybody that youwould like to shine a little
light on?
Jason Chapin (49:19):
not only with music but the charities, and
she's also been a great mentorto me, helping me make some of
(49:41):
my life decisions about careersand different things that I've
gotten involved with.
Jay Franze (49:43):
So she's the one.
Do you think it was herinfluence that led to your dad's
success?
Jason Chapin (50:02):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that you know it wasthe confidence that she gave him
, the encouragement that shegave him, and holding down the
fort when he was on the road, Ithink that he knew she was his
rock.
He knew that he could go outand do all the crazy things you
need to do in that business andshe was going to um support him
in every way she could.
Jay Franze (50:19):
That's pretty cool.
She also had to be pretty youngwhen your father passed away,
right?
Jason Chapin (50:23):
Yeah, but she was eight years older, so he married
an older woman and, uh, she wasuh in her forties when he
passed away.
Jay Franze (50:33):
That's sad as I look at it now.
I was 40 when I got married, soit's got to be tough.
All right, sir.
One last question for you.
What is your connection to theHigh Mountain Breezes?
Jason Chapin (50:47):
Through Peggy's job in the office.
She told me about them andwanting to do a cover of one of
my father's songs and, um, and Ilistened to it.
It's fabulous.
Uh, I know that.
Um, I think the album is out.
They're coming out soon, Ican't remember, but uh, you know
it's, yeah, just really happyabout that connection well, they
(51:12):
are not only great people, theyare absolutely amazingly
talented.
Yeah.
Jay Franze (51:18):
All right, folks.
Well, we have done it.
We have reached the top of thehour, which does mean we have
reached the end of the show.
And, as we say here, if you'veenjoyed the show, please tell a
friend, and if you have not,well, tell two.
You can reach out to both of usover at jayfranze.
com and we will be happy to keepthis conversation going.
All right, sir.
With that said, I would like toleave the final words to you.
Jason Chapin (51:42):
Well, it's great being with you.
Appreciate you having me on.
I love talking about musicbecause music connects so many
people in so many ways, and wecan all tell stories about our
first concert or our first album.
And my daughters just gave me arecord player for my birthday,
(52:04):
so I'm building up my vinylcollection again and also, you
know, I just I love having theopportunity to also talk about
my father's credo, which is,when in doubt, do something.
We need people to get involved,whatever their cause is,
whatever their passion is.
You know, we need more peopleto help those who need help and
(52:27):
to get other people involved,because we haven't figured
everything out and we got a lotof needs and we got a lot of
needs and we got a lot of peoplewho are hurting, and so if you
can help people, uh, please doso you know you keep doing it
every time you say something.
Jay Franze (52:44):
There's something else I want to know first
concert, first album first.
Jason Chapin (52:50):
You know, obviously my father's uh albums
were my first albums, and thenhe would bring home some, so it
may have been, you know, mayhave been james taylor, uh,
first one that he brought homethat I listened to.
Could have been john denver,but um first major concert I
went to was foreigner at madisonsquare garden.
Jay Franze (53:13):
Not too shabby.
You know, the original singeris supposed to be joining the
band again.
Jason Chapin (53:18):
Lou Graham.
Jay Franze (53:19):
Actually have an original member back in the band
hey if the Stones are goingstrong with their 60th.
Jason Chapin (53:26):
You know, and that's the thing, these guys
live forever.
So why not get out there andperform?
Jay Franze (53:31):
All right, folks On that note have a good night.
Tony Scott (53:36):
Thanks for listening to the Jay Franzi show.
Make sure you visit us atjayfranze.
com.
Follow, connect and say hello.
Welcome to The Jay Franze Show, a
behind-the-curtain look at theentertainment industry, with
insights you can't pay for andstories you've never heard.
Now here's your host, JayFranze.
Jay Franze (00:33):
And we are coming at you live.
I am Jay Franze and this isyour source for the latest news,
reviews and interviews.
So if you would like to join in, comment or fire off any
questions, please head over tojayfranze.
com.
All right, folks, tonight wehave a very special guest with
us.
We do.
We have a very special guest.
We have the son of a music icon.
(00:53):
We have the son of Harry ChapinHalen from the great state of
New York.
We have Jason Chapin.
Jason, sir, how are you?
Jason Chapin (01:04):
I'm great.
Jay Franze (01:04):
Jay.
Well, let's go ahead and justjump right in.
I know your dad.
He had a passion for makingdocumentaries.
Is that where your passion formaking this documentary came
from?
Jason Chapin (01:14):
Well, yeah, he was making documentaries before he
signed his record contract withElectra Records and he was
making films about boxing.
He actually got an Oscarnomination for a film called
Legendary Champions, which wasthe early years of boxing Really
unusual film and he also did abunch of commercials.
(01:37):
He also did a couple films forthe World Bank, one on Ethiopian
famine.
So I think we can talk abouthow that had an impact on him
later.
And he actually was working ona couple films now and then in
the middle of his music careerbecause he really enjoyed the
craft and he wanted to make adocumentary about his
(01:59):
grandfather, kenneth Burke,who's a pretty well-known person
in literary circles.
Jay Franze (02:04):
Now, we always say the key to a good song is a good
story, and your dad was amaster storyteller, so do you
feel as if his ability to tellstories helped him when it came
to making documentaries?
Jason Chapin (02:17):
Yeah, and he liked to meet people and he liked to
observe people and I think thatjust any given day he would see
something, hear something and itwould be a kernel for a song.
And a lot of you know differentexperiences he would piece
(02:38):
together songs.
A lot of the songs weresemi-biographical, but there are
a lot of songs that were alsojust about my mother.
So you know some of his lovesongs were about her.
He wrote a couple of songsabout different family members
which were purely biographical,but you know a couple of songs
that were about him and he alsoalways tried to have a couple of
(02:58):
little twists and turns.
So there are a couple of songswhere he told different
audiences that it meant onething and then he told another
audience it meant another thingand then he told family members
it was really about somethingelse.
So we're still trying to figureout some of those songs.
Jay Franze (03:12):
Now, do you think you'll ever find the truth?
Jason Chapin (03:16):
Maybe when we meet in heaven.
Jay Franze (03:18):
Now, it's my understanding that this is the
second documentary, so before weget too deep into this one, can
you tell us a little bit aboutthe first one?
Jason Chapin (03:28):
In 2020, we put out a documentary called Harry
Chapin when in Doubt DoSomething, which was all about
his life, his music and hishumanitarian work, and that was
the only film that we werereally planning on doing.
It was well-received and, youknow, we were happy to get it
out there.
But then we were reallyplanning on doing.
It was well received and wewere happy to get it out there.
But then we were thinking abouta couple anniversaries, and one
(03:51):
was the 50th anniversary of whyHunger, an organization my
father started in 1975 with BillAyers to try and end hunger and
poverty.
And right around then we alsorealized 1974 was when Cats in
the Cradle came out, went numberone and so celebrated its 50th
(04:11):
anniversary last year.
So we started working on a filmabout that because, believe it
or not, there are a lot ofpeople who know Cats in the
Cradle, but they don'tnecessarily know who wrote it
and they've never heard of HarryChapin.
So we're expecting the new filmHarry Chapin Cats in the Cradle
(04:33):
50th anniversary to probably beseen by more people and
appreciated by more peoplebecause of their connection to
the song.
Jay Franze (04:43):
Now, you mentioned that people aren't always
familiar with the person whowrote the song.
Do you ever go out and listento some of the cover tunes that
have been done?
Jason Chapin (04:52):
Yeah, I'm really fascinated whenever I hear a new
cover.
But you know, over the yearsit's been an incredible honor
and tribute to my father thatmany legends have recorded Cats
in the Cradle Everyone fromRicky Skaggs to Johnny Cash, to
(05:12):
Ugly Kid Joe, to this Irish bandcalled Celtic Thunder, to Judy
Collins, to Mandy Patinkin andalso Daryl McDaniel.
So you've got country, you'vegot rap, mandy Patinkin and also
Daryl McDaniel.
So you've got country, you'vegot rap, you've got rock, you've
got a little bit of everythingfolk, and so it's just one of
those songs that connects with alot of artists and connects
(05:34):
with a lot of music lovers.
And I don't know who's going todo it next, but we will welcome
it with open arms.
Jay Franze (05:40):
How do you feel about the Ugly Kid Joe version?
Jason Chapin (05:42):
Oh, I love it.
I was, let's see, I was in mylate 20s, you know.
When I first heard it I thought, wow, that's an interesting
take.
And then I saw it climb thecharts and it peaked at number
three.
And I thought, wow, a rockversion and peaking at number
three.
And then it's even betterbecause the band would perform
(06:06):
in the New York area and mymother went to meet them, went
backstage and got to know themand they were as nice as could
be.
And then, when we were puttingtogether the new film, we
reached out to the agent and heput us in touch with Whitfield
Crane and he is the lead singerand he was all in.
(06:30):
He said what can I do?
I wanted help.
So he not only did an interviewand it's it's a big part of the
film but he also gave us abunch of footage from concerts
and he tours all over.
So he was in Europe and and soa lot of fans at his concerts in
different countries, differentnationalities, would talk about
their connection to the song andwith people with Russian
(06:52):
accents, Finnish accents, Danishaccents talking about that song
and singing that song, that'san amazing thing.
Jay Franze (07:00):
Now, I grew up around the Ugly Kid Joe release
and I really do love it.
I absolutely do.
It's my style of music.
I love the song, but there'ssomething about your dad's
version that you can reallyconnect to.
Jason Chapin (07:11):
You can kind of feel that pain was always
writing poetry as an adult, andwhen my mother and father met,
my father was giving her guitarlessons and my father couldn't
stop talking.
He would talk about anythingwith anybody, so instead of
(07:34):
really focusing on the guitarlist, and he was always telling
my mother I write poetry, and sohe would share some poetry with
her.
I've got a new song.
He would share a new song withher.
I don't know how much teachinghe was doing, but they really
had a connection, a creativeconnection, because they both
like to write poetry, and myfather taught my mother how to
(07:54):
write songs because my fatherwas writing songs for a TV show
that my uncle Tom did.
It was a children's show calledMake-A-Wish that was on on
Saturday mornings and thenSunday mornings, and so my
father was kind of juggling alot of things, couldn't always
finish the homework, get thework done in time, so he was
(08:14):
asking my mother to help him,and it's actually my mother who
was the one who started the songCats in the Cradle and it
started as a poem.
She showed it to my father andhe said well, that's nice.
And then my younger brother,josh, was born and he was
looking for some new material.
He was working on a new albumand digging through the drawer
(08:36):
and saw the poem again and said,hmm, this has more meaning to
me now.
And so he converted the poem toa song.
And if you look at the single,if you look at the album, it's
co-written by Harry and SandyChapin.
And another thing that's kindof unusual is the song was on
the album Verities and BoulderDash and it was the third single
(09:00):
on the song.
And if you think about it backin the 70s and you know, my
mother told my father there's noway this is gonna be a single,
there's no way this haspotential because it's about a
father and a son.
And back then, you know, hitsongs were not about fathers and
sons, they were abouteverything.
They were about parties, theywere about cars, they were about
(09:20):
love, they were not about, youknow, a dysfunctional
relationship between a fatherand a son.
And sure enough it worked itsway up to number one.
Jay Franze (09:30):
It was your mother's poem that was the inspiration
behind the song, but that poemwas written about a previous
relationship, correct?
Jason Chapin (09:38):
Yeah.
So my mother's first marriagewas to Jim Cashmore and Jim's
father was John Cashmore, whowas the borough president of
Brooklyn.
He was heavily into politicsand Jim was his only son and
when my mother married him sheobserved, you know, she loved
Jim.
They got married, of course,but she also loved the
(10:00):
personality of Jim's father John.
But she also loved thepersonality of Jim's father John
and she noticed that they had avery distant relationship.
She would tell stories abouthow she'd be sitting at the
table and they wouldn't talk toeach other.
They would talk through Jim'smother, they would talk through
Jim's father and my mother waslike the interpreter and she
(10:21):
thought this is really strange.
She just couldn't understandhow they were father and son,
but they really did not have aclose, loving relationship yeah,
that's unfortunate.
Jay Franze (10:31):
I have three kids of my own and I could not possibly
imagine not having thatrelationship with them.
It's funny I had kids later inlife and I always said, if I do
have kids, that I would not letsomething like this happen to me
.
And here we are, years laterhaving the conversation about
(10:52):
the importance of the song.
Now we mentioned Ugly Kid Joeand you said that Whitefield the
singer.
He did an interview to be partof that documentary.
Who else was part of thatdocumentary?
Jason Chapin (11:02):
Oh, it's a great list.
We've got Billy Joel, we've gotRobert Lamb, judy Collins,
manny Penkin, daryl McDanielsand we've got Whit Crane from
Ugly Kid Joe, as I mentioned.
We've got E Schneider fromTwisted Sister.
Jay Franze (11:22):
He's great.
What's the connection there?
Jason Chapin (11:25):
Well, he's a Long Islander and you know we lived
on Long Island, in Huntington,for many years and he also
became a supporter of a foodbank my father started in 1980
called Long Island Cares.
So he was deeply connected tothe organization and became
connected to my father's legacyorganization and became
connected to my father's legacy,and so we reached out to him
(11:48):
and he said I'd be happy to dothe interview and it's great.
And then we've got a few otherpeople DJ Bob Buckman, who's
with Sirius XM now, but he waswith BAB, big radio station on
Long Island, and we've gotfamily members.
And then what's really cool iswe've got reaction videos, and I
didn't really know aboutreaction videos until a couple
(12:10):
years ago.
And so you take you takesomeone on youtube who's got
their own channel and someonefeeds them some songs that they
know that the dj has never heardof, and then he plays the song
and you see him react to thesong.
And so you got people in their20s who have no idea who harry
is, they have no idea about catsin the cradle, and they're
(12:31):
listening to it.
And then the tears startpouring and you're thinking, wow
, you know, this is.
This is fun to see peoplelisten to a song for the first
time and get their their firstimpressions I love those videos.
Jay Franze (12:44):
I actually like the ones that get really technical,
go beyond just the story of thesong but get into more of the
melody and the chord changes,and such One of the other people
that was interviewed for theoriginal documentary was Pat
Benatar.
How did that come about?
Jason Chapin (12:58):
Yeah, she's in the first film and the second film
and she was just honored by whyHunger, the organization my
father co-founded, at their 50thanniversary gala.
She and Neil, her husband, havebeen big supporters of why
Hunger, long Island Cares, and abig part of my father's legacy.
It's an interesting story.
(13:19):
So Pat was an up and comingmusician on Long Island, played
at a bar in our hometown,huntington.
My father was not performingthat night but he went to the
bar and he was listening to thisyoung talent and at the time he
was working on a musical and heheard Pat's voice and said, wow
, it's really unique and she'sgot a lot of personality.
(13:41):
So he asked her to audition andshe auditioned for the musical
and that's when theirrelationship started and you
know they kept in touch and PatBenatar's career took off and
fast forward to 1987, my fatherhad passed and they had a
tribute concert for him atCarnegie Hall and so they asked
(14:02):
a bunch of artists to performdifferent songs and Pat Benatar
asked to perform Shooting Starand she does a remarkable
rendition and she's performed itin her concerts over the years
and at the Hawaiian Hungerfundraiser gala she performed
that as well, as Love is aBattlefield.
Jay Franze (14:24):
She really is truly amazing.
She's one of the best ever.
Yeah, but one of the otherpeople you mentioned was billy
joel, and I know he's been goingthrough some health struggles,
so what was it like with him onthe set?
Jason Chapin (14:40):
well, it was.
Um, it was part of theinterview we did in 2020, so it
wasn't a recent interview.
Fortunately, there was aninterview we did with Bill Maher
and gave an update.
I guess he still has somebalance issues but he's
following doctor's orders andfeels okay otherwise and
(15:01):
hopefully he's going to make afull recovery.
Jay Franze (15:04):
Well, that's good to hear.
You also mentioned why Hunger.
Now, why Hunger was started byyour dad back in 1975 and it
still exists today.
So can you tell us a little bitabout that?
Jason Chapin (15:17):
Yeah, so I'm going to go back to my mother my
mother, I think.
She always saw my fatherhitting the road and doing all
these concerts, and then hewould come home and kind of not
know what to do.
And my mother was gettinginvolved in lots of community
activities and organizations andso she started nudging him,
saying, well, you got to findsomething to get involved with.
(15:38):
And it was right around thenthat he met Bill Ayers, who at
the time was a Catholic priestand had a rock radio show on
Long Island and my father was onthe show and they had a great
connection.
They had a lot in common andthey started a friendship and
they were both really lookingfor something that they could
(16:00):
work on together.
And Bill was instrumental inhelping my father understand
that he could use his fame andfortune for good and so kind of
motivated him to say, well, Ineed to do something.
And so he started theorganization with Bill in 1975
with the lofty goal of endingworld hunger.
And they really stuck with it.
(16:21):
My father did about 100 benefitconcepts a year, poured a lot of
money into the organization toget it off the ground and you
know the thing is he passed awaysix years later, in 1981.
And the organization could havefolded.
But there were a bunch ofheroes.
My father's manager, ken Cragen, also managed Kenny Rogers and
(16:41):
Kenny Rogers stepped in, did abenefit concert and supported.
One of their programs was theHarry Chapin Media Awards.
And then you know, of courseboards do their part.
So the boards and staff andvolunteers and supporters kept
it going and a lot of othermusicians also stepped in.
So it's not only 50 years oldbut it's growing and it's
(17:04):
getting stronger and it's neededmore today than ever before.
Jay Franze (17:09):
Wow, that is definitely impressive and your
dad has done so much.
And as we talk about your dad,he passed away in 1981 and it
seems like he had such a longcareer, but he was only 38 at
the time, correct?
Jason Chapin (17:22):
Yeah, he was 38.
And he got a late start in life.
I tell people that you know hewas not an overnight success.
He started in film and thenthat kind of petered out and
then he always loved music.
He grew up playing music withhis brothers, tom and Steve, and
they had their own band, theChapin Brothers, but they put
out an album that didn't selland then my father was the
(17:46):
opening act for his brothers.
His brothers kicked him out ofthe band and they rented this
place called the Village Gate inthe music scene in Manhattan
downtown and my father opened asa solo artist for a couple
nights and he was horrible.
I mean there were about fourpeople in the theater venue and
he was horrible.
I mean there were about fourpeople in the theater venue and
he said I got to figure this out.
(18:07):
So he put together a band inabout a week's time and he had a
bunch of songs that he hadwritten and he just decided to
go for it and that attractedJack Holtzman and Clive Davis
and he was in the midst of abidding war and next thing, you
know, he's got a 10-album dealwith Electric Record.
And that was when he was almostI think he was 27.
(18:31):
And I think that in 72, he was30 years old when he had his
first hit, and that's pretty oldfor a musician who's trying to
make a go of it and so he passedaway at 38.
And so he had done 11 albums in10 years, did 2,000 concerts
(18:54):
and he did a bunch of otherstuff.
But yeah, it was a very briefcareer.
Jay Franze (18:59):
It was very brief, but man, he did so much in that
time.
Why did he get kicked out ofyour brother's band or his
brother's band?
Jason Chapin (19:07):
He um, he talked too much.
He wrote these really longsongs that were really weird and
his brothers were going in adifferent direction.
They were playing kind of thesoft rock music and they just
thought that they had a vocalistand they had a guitarist and he
just didn't fit in anymore.
Jay Franze (19:29):
Do they still play?
Jason Chapin (19:30):
Yeah, they do something called the Harry
Chapin Family Concert and myUncle Tom.
He's got three Grammys and he'sput out a ton of albums on his
own.
He's a well-known artist on hisown but he also loves playing my
father's music and theyperformed together for a number
of years.
My father welcomed him into theband after his career took off,
(19:54):
as well as his brother, steve,so they were reunited, did have
a happy ending, and after myfather died, fans wanted to hear
the music and so they startedplaying these tribute concerts
and then they started puttingtogether the Harry Chapin family
concerts and it's grown so itincludes my younger sister, jen,
tom's daughters, abigail andLily, steve's son, jonathan, and
(20:18):
then John Wallace, originalbassist.
He's in the group, as is HowardFields, the original drummer,
and then there are a bunch ofother musicians in the group and
they play up and down the EastCoast and they play out in the
Midwest and I'm sure that ifthere's a big theater and enough
requests they'll get out to theWest Coast and they'd be happy.
(20:41):
Actually, they do this a bunchof concerts up in Nova Scotia in
August.
So my Uncle Steve and Uncle Tomhave homes up there and they do
a bunch of concerts in Canadaas well.
Jay Franze (20:54):
I've only been to Nova Scotia once, but man, what
a beautiful place.
I know everything has turnedout okay now, but at the time
when your dad was kicked out ofthe band, were there any hard?
Jason Chapin (21:07):
feelings?
My father.
He got used to setbacks andfailure.
As I said, film didn't work outthe way he wanted.
He wanted to write a greatAmerican novel.
That never happened.
He wrote a lot of poetry andpublished poetry books, but I
can't say they were big sellers.
You know, early on, before hegot his record contract, he had
(21:27):
some weird dream of becoming anAir Force pilot.
So he was actually at the AirForce Academy and about six
weeks in he said this is not forme, I don't believe discharged.
And then he said I got to go tocollege.
So he went to Cornell.
And then he said I got to go tocollege.
So he went to Cornell, gotkicked out, went back to Cornell
, got kicked out again.
(21:48):
So he was used to failure.
He was used to, you know,getting knocked down and getting
back up.
So no hard feelings.
Jay Franze (21:57):
No hard feelings.
Well, you mentioned a coupleother things.
Why did he get kicked?
Jason Chapin (22:03):
out of Cornell.
It was a combination of things.
He didn't like to go to class,he didn't like to hand in papers
, didn't like to show up forexams, because he really was
into music and also, frankly, Ithink, he was pretty depressed
because he just didn't know whathe wanted to do with his life.
And he also spent a lot of timeat this bar playing pool and
(22:24):
making a little money, so hejust it never really connected.
I think he was highlyintelligent and he got a couple
doctorates but did not graduatefrom college.
Jay Franze (22:38):
Yeah, he'd have to be pretty intelligent to get
accepted into Cornell in thefirst place.
Yeah.
Now, the other thing youmentioned was he was honorably
discharged from the Air Forceafter only six weeks.
How does that happen?
Jason Chapin (22:53):
Well, he told a couple stories about that.
He said that he thought that itwould be really cool to fly
jets and then he realized thatif you're in the Air Force,
you're flying jets but you'rebombing people and that just
didn't work for him.
He didn't want to kill peopleand think you know, pretty
immature when he decided to goand he didn't really think it
(23:15):
through.
And also I think that they werehappy to see him go because I
think they found that he was apain in the butt.
He was just, you know,complaining and you know, giving
him a hard time and and so fast, forward, forward.
His music career takes off andhe's playing at different places
and he got to play at the AirForce Academy a couple of times
(23:35):
and he loved talking about howhe was there.
He was in debt and they kickedhim out and he got to come back
and perform and they would cheerhim on, and so it came full
circle and it had a happy ending.
Jay Franze (23:49):
Now, I know he was known for doing benefits, but
did he ever do any of the USOtours?
Jason Chapin (23:55):
He did not do USO tours, but my mother's brother,
rocky Gaston, was in the AirForce, so that's pretty ironic.
And so he was stationed inEurope, in Germany, and he had a
lot of connections, a lot ofcontacts.
So we would go on a familyvacation to Germany and my
(24:17):
father would play at a bunch ofAir Force bases.
And I remember also he wasplaying a concert on the USS
Forrestal, an aircraft carrier.
At the time it was just off ofNaples, italy, and so he got a
tour and he did a concert.
So there were just a lot oftimes that he did perform for
(24:38):
different military bases indifferent countries.
Jay Franze (24:42):
How did he begin working with the White House?
Jason Chapin (24:44):
Yeah, so he starts White Hunger in 75 and he's
pushing hard.
He's just trying to figure outhow he can get this organization
to help as many people aspossible.
And he was reading up a lot.
He was trying to figure out whowere the experts and who could
help him make the most of hisorganization.
(25:07):
So he connected with this woman, frances Morlepe, who's still a
leader in the movement, and healso was asked by a bunch of
members of Congress to dobenefit concerts and so I think
the light bulb went off and hesaid you know, there's a lot of
money in DC and there are a lotof powerful people in DC.
I'm going to spend some timedown there and lobby them to see
(25:28):
if they can help me.
And he was also very goodfriends with John Denver and
John Denver was very involved intrying to end hunger early in
his career.
So they would have someconversations.
And then Bill Ayers was alsoinvolved in the strategy
sessions and my father at thetime involved in the strategy
(25:50):
sessions and my father at thetime you know he was lobbying
everybody and he would hang outin the men's room in the Capitol
and in different legislativebuildings.
Because you know, word gotaround that Harry Chapin was
visiting everybody to try andget them to do something and
they started to avoid him.
So he would hang out in themen's room and try and pin him
down.
And so he was trying to pindown Senator Patrick Leahy from
(26:14):
Vermont, and not only did he pinhim down, but they actually
struck up a friendship.
So Pat Leahy became his mentor,his guide, to kind of navigate
through Washington, and theycame up with the idea of
petitioning President Carter fora presidential commission.
And they finally had the meeting.
They had an initial meeting inthe cabinet room and then they
(26:35):
had a meeting to make the finalpush.
And Patrick Leahy tells areally funny story about how,
you know, they start theconversation and President
Carter says well, you know, Ithink that's a fine idea and
let's do it.
And then my father heard that,but he couldn't stop talking.
He kept giving him more reasonswhy they should do the
(26:56):
commission and Pat Lay had toelbow him and said you already
got.
Yes, don't blow it Right.
Jay Franze (27:03):
Was your dad political at all?
Jason Chapin (27:06):
He was political.
And again, my mother nudged himwhen we were living in another
town on Long Island, pointLookout, and got him to
volunteer for a campaign with acongressional incumbent who was
running for re-election.
So he was the speechwriter andthey give you about nine titles
as a volunteer and he was alsowriting a bunch of literature
(27:29):
titles as a volunteer and he wasalso writing a bunch of
literature.
So I think that was somethingthat he felt, you know, was
challenging but also worthwhile.
And then, once he reallycommitted to fighting hunger and
poverty, he met a lot ofmembers of the House and Senate
and struck up a lot offriendships Senator Bill Bradley
and Representative Ben Gilmanand Senator Byron Dorgan and
(27:52):
many others and so they becamepart of this group that were
always talking about politics.
But my father also was veryproud to say that he would do
benefit concerts for Democrats,republicans, independents,
anybody, as long as they were onhis side trying to end hunger.
Jay Franze (28:09):
Yeah, being a nonpartisan cause, that would
make sense anyway.
Absolutely.
You got a question in the chat.
Were there any othersinger-songwriters that your dad
looked up to and liked tofollow?
Jason Chapin (28:21):
Yeah, you know he got to play with a lot of
artists Billy Joel in the firstfilm, second film about how you
know they.
They did a lot of concerts.
Initially Billy Joel opened formy father and then my father
would open for Billy Joel.
They had a lot in common.
Also, my father, through KenCragen, had a very good
(28:42):
friendship, did a bunch ofconcerts with Kenny Rogers, and
then I mentioned John Denver.
They shared the same managerfor a while and they had a good
friendship and, I think,recognized each other as
singer-songwriters andsongwriters and also my father
was again trying to raise moneyfor why Hunger.
(29:04):
So he did a concert and it's onYouTube and it's called Four
Together.
It was in Detroit, michigan,1977.
He did a concert with JohnDenver, james Taylor and Gordon
Lightfoot.
It was a round stage and theytook turns playing each other's
songs and unfortunately theydidn't video it and there's just
(29:24):
some rough recordings of it.
But yeah, he loved all of them.
Judy Collins he also one of hisidols and one of his heroes was
Pete Seeger.
They played a lot of concertstogether.
Jay Franze (29:40):
Those are some pretty impressive names, but
they all have that samesinger-songwriter feel to them.
But you did mention Billy Joeland also a priest that was into
rock and roll.
Did your dad have that rock androll side to him?
Jason Chapin (29:54):
yeah, most most people that they, if they've
heard of Perry Chapin, they knowtaxi, they know cats and cradle
and ironically, almost nobodyyou know knows that he had a
follow up hit to Taxi calledSequel.
Taxi peaked at 24.
Sequel came out in 1980, peakedat 23, and then he had another
(30:17):
big hit, wold.
But he had a lot of other fanfavorites and and he had a bunch
of songs that I think were veryrock-ish and some of them are
really intense.
He's got a song called Sniper,he's got another song called
Bummer.
There's a tribute concert andthese guys love to play another
(30:39):
song called the Rock and he hasother songs that I think are
country.
He did an album after Verity'sand Bulldash's album.
It was a couple albums latercalled Living Room Suite and he
was really at that pointstarting to follow and really
enjoy country music.
So Living Room Suite is kind ofhis country music album.
(31:00):
And then he also, you know hecame from the folk background,
so a lot of his songs werefolkish and he did not like
disco and he used to always talkabout how he didn't like disco
in concert.
So you're not going to find anydisco songs but you'll
definitely find a couple othergenres.
Jay Franze (31:17):
Who would be the most unexpected artist that he
followed?
Jason Chapin (31:21):
Well, you know, because he was signed with
Elektra, he would get a bunch ofElectra artists and so he
listened to their stuff and Idon't, I don't know what the
wildest thing that he picked onhis own, but he had five kids
and we all listened to differentmusic and I think he thought we
were going through a stage.
(31:42):
But, you know, I definitely hadmy rock stage.
I was, you know, as a teenager,and still am, a big Led
Zeppelin fan, rolling Stones fanwho bad company?
You can go right down the list.
And so I think my father hearda lot of rock music because his
kids were listening to it.
Jay Franze (32:01):
Well, he was able to identify Pat Benatar's talent.
Jason Chapin (32:04):
Yeah.
Jay Franze (32:05):
You also mentioned Led Zeppelin.
What are your feelings now withthe reunion?
Jason Chapin (32:10):
You know, I love the documentary that just came
out and I love some of thethings Robert Plant, alison
Krauss just the fact that he'sbeen out there every year just
touring and Jimmy Page genius,almost unmatched talent.
And you know we don't have JohnBottom anymore but we've got
(32:36):
his son, so it's almost the fullband.
So, yeah, I think it's great.
I'd love to see him.
I'm sure that they'll sell outthink it's great.
Jay Franze (32:49):
I'd love to see them .
I'm sure that they'll sell out.
That's funny.
Chris Franz was on the show.
He's the guitar tech for JasonBonham's team and when they came
through town I got a chance tosee them and it was an amazing
show.
It was the Led Zeppelinexperience and it was just
amazing.
All right, let's take it back.
We mentioned at the beginningthat your dad had a love for
documentaries, so what inspiredyou to put this documentary
together and what is your role?
Jason Chapin (33:10):
So it's funny, my father wrote this song called
Circle and he ended his concertswith the song Circle.
So a lot of things come fullcircle.
So Bill Ayers at the time wasrunning why Hunger and met a
couple people who were helpinghim with a benefit concert.
A guy named Rick Korn and SABarron became friends of Bill's,
(33:34):
worked together on a fewprojects, and so Rick said to
Bill one night how come nobody'sever done a documentary about
Harry Chapin?
And Bill said I don't know, butwhy don't you?
And so Bill connected Rick andI and Bill said I don't know,
but why don't you?
And so Bill connected Rick andI and Rick and SA came to my
house and I invited my motherover to discuss the possibility
of a documentary.
(33:54):
And Rick and SA show up with acamera and started interviewing
my mother and I on the spot.
And so somehow we realized thatI think we were starting to make
a film and I had never made afilm.
I don't have a background infilm, but I thought it was
pretty cool that I'm making afilm about my father who had a
(34:16):
film career, and then, you know,to be a producer of that film
was, you know, a once in alifetime.
But then I was asked to getinvolved and help with the
second film.
So here I am, a producer againand uh, and it was also at my
mother's insistence that anyprofits, uh, with both films
(34:40):
will be shared with the threecharities.
Why hunger, long island caresand a foundationary champion
foundation, which was startedafter my father passed.
Jay Franze (34:50):
That is very cool that your mother is insisting it
be done.
Yeah, now you say you're theproducer, so what is the role of
a producer when it comes tothis documentary?
Jason Chapin (35:00):
My role was really to help raise money to help
line up the interviews, so I putout a lot of requests to ask
people if they would beinterviewed and also help us
promote the film.
And then we have a lot ofmeetings where we have to figure
out the marketing and thepromotion PR firm and
(35:24):
coordinating the interviews andthe press package.
And then there's a lot ofdiscussions about the trailer
and we spent a lot of timelining up a distributor, mvd.
So we're very excited abouthaving them as our partner and
film's going to be releasedNovember 4th or thereabouts and
(35:45):
it's going to be on all themajor streaming platforms Apple
TV, amazon Prime and a bunch ofothers.
It's also going to be releasedon DVD.
It's not going to have atheater release, but we've also
done some fundraisers where wedo a private screening, where we
do a private screening, andit's also going to be in a film
(36:10):
festival.
August 8th the Long IslandMusic and Entertainment Hall of
Fame is having their first filmfestival, southampton Film
Festival.
So hoping we can hopefully dowell in those and get a little
momentum going right up to therelease.
Jay Franze (36:24):
Now you mentioned you had to handle the outreach
and the PR and the marketing.
What was the hardest part inthat process?
Jason Chapin (36:33):
I think fundraising is really hard
because typically you knoweveryone's got their own causes
or you know they're connected tosomething and so you're asking
them to give money to a project,and typically documentaries
don't make money.
So it's not like if you asksomeone to invest in the film
(36:56):
that there's a guarantee thatthey're going to get the money
back.
But fortunately, you knowincredible generosity.
A lot of fans wanted to donateand contribute and also uh, we
did a lot of uh, we did go fundme and we also did um, you know
some other things to raiseawareness.
(37:16):
So you know a couple hundredpeople, but each and every one
of them is important andcontributed to make it possible.
And then we also had to line upsome folks who I think, are
going to end up being sponsors.
So that's also another item onthe checklist that we've been
focusing on.
Jay Franze (37:38):
Now you've mentioned the charities and the
organizations that you've had achance to work with, but those
are all based around a cause.
Do you find it harder to raisemoney for a movie?
Jason Chapin (37:49):
Yes and no.
There are some people who, just, you know, they've been
donating to my father'scharities and this was just
another thing that they wantedto be a part of.
There are also other people whowere fans of my father's music,
didn't know about the charitiesand they thought, wow, you know
, this is the way that I couldalso support the charities, so
(38:09):
that was a factor.
They're also, you know, justfriends of friends and they're
also family members whocontributed.
So, you know, you just put theword out.
You know you don't twist arms.
But when people say, you know,they got a few questions and you
answer the questions and theysay, yeah, I'll do it, it's a
great feeling.
And also, you know, there aresome folks who contribute to the
(38:33):
film, who are also in the film,so I think that was also a
bonus for them.
Jay Franze (38:39):
So you've mentioned crowdsourcing and you've
mentioned fan involvement whenit comes to the crowdsourcing.
So how did you let the fansknow that this was even an
option?
Jason Chapin (38:51):
So you have to, you know, go on the social media
platforms and get the word out.
We also have some, we've gotsome large fan lists, so we were
doing some e-blasts and alsosome of it's word of mouth, and
then we put together a websiteand we put together a trailer,
and so you just keep pluggingaway and just trying to reach
(39:14):
more and more people indifferent ways and then
eventually you get to the goaland then you're off to the races
.
Jay Franze (39:22):
So you mentioned that documentaries don't
typically make money and thatthe investors may not even see
return on their investment.
But earlier you mentioned thatyour mother insisted on giving
the profit to charity.
So how can you ensure that thisdocumentary is going to be
different and that there's goingto be money to give to the
(39:44):
charities when it's all over?
Jason Chapin (39:47):
No guarantees.
Again, you know it's a heavylift, but the distributor's got
to make sure that it gets on asmany platforms as possible and
also that we've got a PR firm,so they want to make sure as
many people know about it aspossible.
And then, you know, we've got alot of great musicians, so we
(40:08):
will ask them if they can helppromote the film.
And then we're also going to dowe call them docu-concerts,
where we're going to ask somemusicians to perform, we're
going to show some clips of thefilm and they're also going to
be fundraisers for the charities.
And then we'll also put a lotof information on social media
and ask friends and family toshare all the content and make
(40:33):
sure that all of their networksknow about it.
And then we cross our fingers.
When we released the first filmit was during COVID we thought
that, you know, everyone wouldbe dying to see our film.
It turns out there were a lotof other films coming out at the
same time and, uh, you know, sothere's a lot of competition.
But we're also I think we've,we're pretty confident that a
(40:55):
lot of people have heard of thesong and, uh, they see the
trailer and they hear some goodthings.
They're going to want to seethe film.
Jay Franze (41:03):
Now you mentioned the movie being distributed out
to the streaming services.
Yeah, how do the streamingservices pay you?
Is it based on streams, a flatfee advertising?
How does that process work?
Jason Chapin (41:19):
I am not an expert , but there are different
platforms and different payingmethods.
So if it's on something likeNetflix, then it's basically a
cost sharing.
They show it and then a numberof people watch it, and then
they split some of the money.
And then there are also otherplatforms where there's
(41:40):
advertisements.
So the advertisers arebasically paying for a lot of it
and then sharing some of that.
And then there are others whereit's basically renting it.
So you basically say, ok, Iwant to watch this film and
you're going to pay whatever itis $9.99.
And then, or you can buy it,and also with DVDs, that's also
(42:03):
a profit sharing arrangement.
Dvds that's also a profitsharing arrangement.
So there are a bunch ofdifferent ways that the money
comes in and then you just gotto wait because they don't all
pay instantly.
You have to do all thesequarterly and semi-annually
(42:24):
statements and it's allcomplicated.
But yeah, that's what thedistributors do.
They keep track of all that?
Jay Franze (42:30):
Yeah, it definitely is a convoluted process these
days, but you mentioned themusic.
Was all of the music in themovie from your dad, or did we
have any guest appearances?
Jason Chapin (42:43):
Well, the music is basically from the catalog and
we've got some concert videosthat we were able to use and
then he was on a number of shows.
So we were able to get some ofthose clips, some of those
videos, and also we have somefrom the 1987 Carnegie Hall
tribute concert and then we havea bunch of clips and this is
(43:05):
really fun.
My daughter, katie, is prettygood with computers and I asked
her a few years ago because Iknew there were all these TV
shows, movies, commercials thatused the song and I asked her to
put together a montage and it'son YouTube.
It's a Harry Chapin Cats in theCradle montage and it shows all
(43:25):
of the you know TV shows,everything from modern family to
to some of the cartoons andthen some of the commercials and
some of the movies, like Shrek,the third three, and I saw it
in show yeah.
So you know, just having abunch of those clips in the film
(43:49):
is a lot of fun and you know, Ithink my daughter's you know
she gets a credit because sheput together the montage and
they took some clips out of themontage.
Jay Franze (44:00):
Again very nice.
Jason Chapin (44:02):
It's pretty funny to have Cats in the Cradle and
the Simpsons Right.
Jay Franze (44:06):
Or Shrek or any of the others.
You mentioned having to puttogether a trailer Now, as the
person who has to be the one togo out and promote the movie,
how much say do you have in thefinal trailer?
Jason Chapin (44:19):
Close to zero.
I mean, basically that's Rickand Essay's domain, but they
would send us different versionsand ask us what we liked.
And you know I'm not a heavyeditor, I think they're the pros
.
So I didn't really make a lotof suggestions.
But you know, basically even mygeneral thoughts thumbs up and
it was a wrap.
Jay Franze (44:40):
Yeah, I can definitely see why you might not
be involved in the editing orthe creative process, but I
would think you would need to beinvolved in the overall
approval, because that's whatyou're going to use to then
market the documentary.
Jason Chapin (44:53):
Yeah, I mean, if my instinct said, oh my God,
this is not good, then I wouldhave told them.
But I think they did a greatjob and I don't think there was
anything I could add to it.
Jay Franze (45:02):
Yeah, it would be hard to sell it.
Jason Chapin (45:14):
Yeah, it'd be hard to sell it.
Looking back at the documentaryand your life itself and the
time you spent with your dad, doyou have any memorable moments
that you could share with us?
Birthday celebration?
So we were, you know, talking alittle bit about my father and
I reflected on how you know hecame into my life.
He was my stepfather before hebecame my father and my earliest
(45:36):
memories are playing sportswith him.
He was a sports nut, lovedwatching sports, playing sports,
so I got really hooked onsports because of him, played
lots of sports in high school,still play a lot of sports and I
have so many great memories ofplaying football in the backyard
or tennis or baseball or golf,and you know it's a big part of
(45:59):
the time that we spent together.
And also just a lot of memoriesof going to different concerts
with him.
And I remember another time hewas doing a TV special, so I
went with him to London becausehe was interviewing Peter
Sellers and so I just have allthese memories of these very
(46:20):
special times with him and it'sjust.
I think that there are just alot of things that I think he
influenced in me.
Obviously, you know I work fora non-profit, very involved with
the charities and very focusedon doing my part, doing
something to end a hunger.
So you know, he kind of um, heleft too soon, but he also kind
(46:45):
of uh, got us all involved inwhat he's doing and we're all
trying to do our part.
Jay Franze (46:50):
We often discuss the decisions that need to be made
when it comes to having children.
Do you take those children onthe road or do you leave them at
home?
From a child's point of view,did you enjoy your time on the
road?
Jason Chapin (47:04):
Yeah, we combined a lot of family vacations with
him doing mini tours because Ithink he just needed to perform,
he just needed to get up onstage.
And then there were some timeswhere there were just, you know,
mini trips where it was justfamily time.
Like you know, we would go upto Vermont and go skiing.
So it was kind of a mix, butyeah, it was fun.
(47:24):
It was fun going to theconcerts, sometimes sitting in
the audience, sometimes beingbackstage, and it was also a lot
of fun whenever he was playingnew material, just because he
was always anxious to get thefan reaction.
Jay Franze (47:37):
Did you enjoy seeing your dad's success?
Jason Chapin (47:41):
Absolutely.
I couldn't be prouder.
I couldn't be prouder, couldn'thave been happier with him
getting all of the recognitionthat he was craving for.
Did you know it at the time?
(48:01):
No, no, no.
I didn't know what was going on.
I didn't know about you know, Iwas just a little kid and so I
didn't really know A lot aboutconcerts, didn't know about him
being on Johnny Carson andputting out these albums.
I just I didn't know.
He was my only dad, really, soI didn't really know what the
other dads were doing, but Ijust thought it was a little
(48:24):
strange because I didn't knowanyone else who did that.
Jay Franze (48:27):
I always laugh.
I have three daughters.
I have a 15-year-old, a10-year-old and a 3-year-old and
I always ask them when anartist comes through town if
they want to go and check outthe show and typically they say
no.
But lately my 10-year-old hastaken me up on it a couple of
times and I've taken her to seethe Oak Ridge Boys and Brooks
(48:48):
and Dunn and maybe a few othersand I'm afraid now to take her
to see a concert where I don'tknow somebody and she doesn't
get treated like a rock star.
Jason Chapin (48:56):
Well, also, I have a feeling your other kids are
going to say wait a second,that's special time with dad.
So you may get a few others whoare going to sign up.
Jay Franze (49:05):
Right Now, I can see that happening too.
Alright, sir.
Well, we do this thing here wecall Unsung Heroes, where we
take a moment to shine the lighton somebody that's worked
behind the scenes or somebodywho may have supported you along
the way.
Do you have anybody that youwould like to shine a little
light on?
Jason Chapin (49:19):
not only with music but the charities, and
she's also been a great mentorto me, helping me make some of
(49:41):
my life decisions about careersand different things that I've
gotten involved with.
Jay Franze (49:43):
So she's the one.
Do you think it was herinfluence that led to your dad's
success?
Jason Chapin (50:02):
Yeah, yeah.
I think that you know it wasthe confidence that she gave him
, the encouragement that shegave him, and holding down the
fort when he was on the road, Ithink that he knew she was his
rock.
He knew that he could go outand do all the crazy things you
need to do in that business andshe was going to um support him
in every way she could.
Jay Franze (50:19):
That's pretty cool.
She also had to be pretty youngwhen your father passed away,
right?
Jason Chapin (50:23):
Yeah, but she was eight years older, so he married
an older woman and, uh, she wasuh in her forties when he
passed away.
Jay Franze (50:33):
That's sad as I look at it now.
I was 40 when I got married, soit's got to be tough.
All right, sir.
One last question for you.
What is your connection to theHigh Mountain Breezes?
Jason Chapin (50:47):
Through Peggy's job in the office.
She told me about them andwanting to do a cover of one of
my father's songs and, um, and Ilistened to it.
It's fabulous.
Uh, I know that.
Um, I think the album is out.
They're coming out soon, Ican't remember, but uh, you know
it's, yeah, just really happyabout that connection well, they
(51:12):
are not only great people, theyare absolutely amazingly
talented.
Yeah.
Jay Franze (51:18):
All right, folks.
Well, we have done it.
We have reached the top of thehour, which does mean we have
reached the end of the show.
And, as we say here, if you'veenjoyed the show, please tell a
friend, and if you have not,well, tell two.
You can reach out to both of usover at jayfranze.
com and we will be happy to keepthis conversation going.
All right, sir.
With that said, I would like toleave the final words to you.
Jason Chapin (51:42):
Well, it's great being with you.
Appreciate you having me on.
I love talking about musicbecause music connects so many
people in so many ways, and wecan all tell stories about our
first concert or our first album.
And my daughters just gave me arecord player for my birthday,
(52:04):
so I'm building up my vinylcollection again and also, you
know, I just I love having theopportunity to also talk about
my father's credo, which is,when in doubt, do something.
We need people to get involved,whatever their cause is,
whatever their passion is.
You know, we need more peopleto help those who need help and
(52:27):
to get other people involved,because we haven't figured
everything out and we got a lotof needs and we got a lot of
needs and we got a lot of peoplewho are hurting, and so if you
can help people, uh, please doso you know you keep doing it
every time you say something.
Jay Franze (52:44):
There's something else I want to know first
concert, first album first.
Jason Chapin (52:50):
You know, obviously my father's uh albums
were my first albums, and thenhe would bring home some, so it
may have been, you know, mayhave been james taylor, uh,
first one that he brought homethat I listened to.
Could have been john denver,but um first major concert I
went to was foreigner at madisonsquare garden.
Jay Franze (53:13):
Not too shabby.
You know, the original singeris supposed to be joining the
band again.
Jason Chapin (53:18):
Lou Graham.
Jay Franze (53:19):
Actually have an original member back in the band
hey if the Stones are goingstrong with their 60th.
Jason Chapin (53:26):
You know, and that's the thing, these guys
live forever.
So why not get out there andperform?
Jay Franze (53:31):
All right, folks On that note have a good night.
Tony Scott (53:36):
Thanks for listening to the Jay Franzi show.
Make sure you visit us atjayfranze.
com.
Follow, connect and say hello.
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