Christian Barrett

Christian Barrett is the college and young adult pastor at Westwood Church in Evansville , IN. In this interview we discuss his testimony, college ministry, the logic of the Gospel, the Quiet Revival, and more.

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This episode was recorded on September 3, 2025.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
OK, I'm here today with Christian Barrett and real quick
before we start, I just want to apologize for not publishing for
a while because things have beenkind of nuts this past month or
so. But I've probably got 3 or 4
episodes that should be coming out in the next weeks.
And but then I'm, I'm going on hiatus because I'll be in

(00:26):
Colorado with no cell service for a little bit, which is a
long story, but yeah. But I'll be, I'll be starting to
show up again around April next year.
Yeah. All right.
So I got Christian Berry with metoday.
And you just want to introduce yourself.
Don't be humble. And and then we can just jump

(00:48):
right into your testimony. Don't.
Don't be humble. That's, I'll be the most
braggadocious person ever then. Yeah.
So I'm, I'm Christian Barrett. I'm on staff at Westwood Church.
I do Evansville and Evansville IN Yeah, the West side of
Evansville, they say the best side.

(01:08):
So some people say it's Heavensville on this side of
town. So I, I get the privilege of
doing a young adult ministry primarily serving college
students at USI, Ivy Tech and University of Evansville and
then just young adults who are just kind of in the workforce in
that age range. And so that's kind of what I get

(01:29):
to do now. And that kind of came about from
after coming to faith while I was at USI about 8 or 9 years
ago now. And I, I grew up in Indiana,
normal southern Indiana town, somewhat nominal Christian home.
And I went to USI, was confronted with the gospel,

(01:51):
wanted absolutely nothing to do with it at all, rejected it
pretty immediately. And then from there went on to
living a life for myself, pursuing the things to the
world, and then kind of spiraledtowards some atheistic
philosophy and some materialistic worldview.

(02:11):
I would consider myself just an agnostic about the world and if
there was a God and had no idea,didn't really care because it
didn't impact me. And and then one night I was I
was out. I was out walking past the
gazebo back at your side near reflection lake and looking up

(02:33):
at the night sky. And I really kind of had this
like come to a conclusion momentand not I come to Jesus moment.
I didn't become a Christian in this moment, but definitely had
to come to a realization of if there is more to life, it's
worth figuring it out then what I was doing.
And so that kind of began this spiral towards figuring out what

(02:56):
life was all about. And I had to go through some
some hard stuff there where I was just, you know, hit a couple
branches on the way down. But shortly after that, had some
friends who were just super gracious and kind who loved me
throughout the college and shared the gospel with me.
I, I remember calling one of them over winter break and

(03:17):
asking them, you know, I think there is a God.
And I think that if there is a God that I'm in big trouble.
So what do I do? Yeah.
And he shared the gospel with meand he told me that, you know,
yes, that I was in big trouble because I'm, I'm a big Sinner.
But the God and his loving kindness had sent his son to die
for me. And he took me to Acts 9 because

(03:39):
I, I didn't believe that there was really anything that could
be done to cover up my sins. I was, I was such a big Sinner,
right? And he took me Acts 9 and showed
me Paul. And he said, you think you're a
bigger Sinner than Paul. And I was like, now this guy
killed Christians, right? And so he, he took me there and
I became a Christian shortly after that.
And my life is kind of been transformed forever since that I

(04:02):
met you. Because of this.
I went on to become a a young student life minister shortly
after graduating college, went to seminary and then have been
doing college young adult ministry past five years now
here at Westwood. Yeah, and you're one of the big
reasons that I became a Christian.
Oh, yeah, that's pretty cool. Glad you became a Christian.

(04:25):
Yeah, so am I. And would could you would you
care to explain Acts 9? Yeah, Acts, Acts 9 is Paul on
the Damascus road. And so, yeah, he's, he's on the
Damascus Rd. They're just kind of doing his
thing. And then has this radical
encounter with God. And and I, I, I don't know if I
would necessarily say I had an Acts and I experienced, but my,

(04:46):
my testimony is somewhat similarin the sense of like, hey,
necessarily have anybody share the gospel with me in the moment
that I like had this realizationI was in trouble.
I was in the back seat of my dad's car and it just hit me of
like, Oh no, then I, I, I actually deserve hell.
Like I actually am a Sinner. God is real.

(05:07):
And I like that was I'm in some ways maybe felt probably what
Paul felt in the sense of, you know, when Jesus in Acts 9, he
comes to me, he says, he says, Paul, why do you persecute me?
Why do you persecute me? Why do you persecute me?
Yeah. And Paul's, like, left blind.
And then Anais comes to him and he heals him and Paul comes to

(05:29):
faith. And, you know, I guess my Anais
was my friend Elliot, who I called.
He shared the gospel with me. And then shortly after getting
off the phone with him, I, I just remember weeping before the
Lord and crime, confessing my sin and then just resting that
Jesus, Jesus's death on the cross really was enough to save

(05:51):
me from my sins. Yeah.
That's awesome. Yeah, I think, I mean a big part
of the Christian walk is community and and I mean, I
think that's a big part of it from the very beginning, like
you're saying with what's his name, Elliot, No the in Acts. 90

(06:11):
Anais. Anais, is that the same?
Anais is the dude who got like. No, no got.
Smited for. Stealing Monais, Yeah, that's a
different. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think like, I mean, almost every testimony I've heard
there, there's someone there, even if there's not someone
there who's like actually the one to, to I, I want to say

(06:35):
convince the no one convinces anyone to come to Christ.
It's like the work of the Holy Spirit, but but like they're
like talking them through it. I think it's important that that
that Christians have that that person there to walk them
through it from the very beginning, because it's like
right when you're right in the beginning, it's so easy to to be

(06:59):
LED astray by false teachers andand lies from the devil.
He wants to get you as soon as possible.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think it's Ananias.
It may be Ananias. I think that may be the name
plus enough. I have a Bible somewhere in
here. You think in my office I would
have one more access a little bit.
They're all over there, so. Yeah, I think I see.

(07:21):
I mean just glancing around I think I've already seen like 5
Bibles. Yeah, yeah.
So. So after after you graduated
from USI, you went straight intoministry?
Yeah, So straight into ministry.I, I'd done an internship the
year before doing high school ministry before graduating, and
I was really trying to figure out what I was going to do with

(07:42):
my life. And I felt pretty strong.
Called a ministry going into my senior year of college, really
thought about going into on the mission field.
Thought that maybe that was where I was going and I was
like, I need to go to seminary. I knew I wanted to go to
seminary. I've always loved learning,
always loved reading in journal.And so that was kind of the
direction I wanted to go anyway.And so I was prepared to go to

(08:08):
to Southern Seminary, just kind of moved to Louisville and began
taking classes. And then about a week before
graduation, I had someone approach me about a job at a
church in Newburgh, IN And as where I met you shortly after, I
just took that position, you know, I had to do a student
ministry there. I did a whole lot of things
there and then from there came to do college ministry and kind

(08:33):
of preparation to think about going more on the mission field.
And then I, I started doing college ministry in March of
2020, which I don't know if you remember what March of 2020 was
like, but that was a a really interesting time because the
week that I started was the lastweek that students were on

(08:54):
campus before the COVID-19 shutdowns.
And so students went home for spring break and they never came
back. And I was like, what do I do?
It says a whole lot of just figuring things out.
Yeah, yeah. And what made you want to go
into ministry? Like was there something
specific or did you just feel that calling there?

(09:16):
You know, I, I think some of it was, there were a handful of
things 1. I had kind of this internal
desire where I really I could not see myself doing anything
else. And I had I had some other
opportunities to do some things.There are definitely other other
job opportunities, even other educational opportunities to

(09:37):
pursue further education. I really like student affairs.
I, I liked other things. I liked student affairs.
I liked the possibility of getting a a Masters in Student
Affairs and working in that world on university campus.
My senior year I did an internship in the the Provost

(09:58):
office at USII Loved it. I loved everything about that.
But I could not escape the desire to do ministry, to, to be
a part of people's lives in a real, tangible way in sharing
the gospel and watching people grow in their faith.

(10:21):
And, and, and still today, I think the thing that excites me
sometimes the most is when someone gets it.
Yeah. Like, like, whether that's
because they've come, they come to faith or, you know, I, I've
taught something and maybe for the first time ever, they like
that. I've never thought about how
amazing God truly is like that. Like, like God, You're right.

(10:43):
God really is holy. He's totally different than me.
And so just from early on just loved that and and had a desire
to explain things early on. And so I had that desire within
me and then I started getting opportunities to teach shortly
after coming to faith. And that was where this like

(11:05):
kind of external of like, Hey, you, you have some giftings here
that you need to think about like crafting, you know, and
it's funny, I think about maybe the first sermon I ever gave.
And I think it was like, I was told probably I had 30 minutes
and I think I, I preached for like 12.
And it's like, oh man, that's probably like the, I'm glad.
I'm sure there's a recording somewhere, but I don't ever want

(11:26):
to hear that. Yeah.
But it's like, I think people around me saw something in there
that that was there. I love the word and I still love
the word and wanted to teach it and tell tell people about it.
I love theology and and still dolove church history and want to
explain those things to people. Yeah.

(11:46):
And, and how come you wanted to go more down the path of student
ministry and college ministry rather than like pastoring a
church or something like that? You know, that's a good question
because you know, the doors never, you know, I'm not, I'm
29. So I've been really weird.

(12:06):
If I'd have been like at 24, I'mgoing to go pastor of church,
right? And so some of that stuff only
just maybe youth in that sense. And is the door closed for doing
pastoral ministry and the sense of pastor church someday?
I don't know, but probably not. I used to think that there was
a, you know, a timetable on college ministry, right?

(12:30):
The longer I've done it, the themore I'm like, I don't know if
that's true. I don't know.
I don't know if that's necessarily the case.
That what? Do you mean like?
Like you age out of it. OK.
Yeah. It's, I don't, I don't know if
that's the case. I think college students desire
to have older people. I actually think the older I've
gotten, the more influence I have had.
I, I'm now kind of becoming, it's, it's interesting when I

(12:53):
first started doing college ministry and maybe when I first
started doing ministry vocationally with, with your age
group, I was quite a bit older, but I still was probably like an
older brother in some ways. Maybe it's them.
I was in 6th grade, so I yeah. So they were all like.
High schoolers, I was like, I was just a little bit of an

(13:14):
older brother today. And so when I started doing
college ministry, it kind of wasthat as well.
And now it's becoming almost like I'm an older uncle or like
maybe the younger uncle and, and, and, and, and so, so that I
think that that's what I'm seeing more of is like, I went
from being like the older brother who was kind of annoying

(13:36):
and said stuff that you kind of listen to sometimes to now I'm
like the uncle that you actuallylike listen to, because I'm
probably going to say something that's full of a little bit of.
And so, and so with age comes maybe a little bit more
influence. And so, you know, I, I, I've, I
love college ministry in particular, because college

(13:57):
students, they think a little bit of a deeper way than high
school, middle school students do.
And I, I just think that there's, you know, there's not a
time like college, there's nothing like it in the world
where you're going to be thinking about things.
Your worldview is being really shaped and challenged in the
classroom by your peers, by yourspirituality is being

(14:21):
challenged. And, and I love being a part of
the holistic development of individuals.
And so I, I love doing it. That's why I think, and a lot of
has to do with, I think because I came to faith in college,
because I was challenged in college to think about who the
Lord Jesus Christ is and I want to be that for people.
Well, it's great to see all thatyou're doing here at USI and at

(14:44):
Westwood for anyone who's listening, who, who lives in the
area. If they wanted to get plugged
in, how could they do that? Yeah, we do.
We do a weekly Bible study. So every every Tuesday we do a
Bible study at Westwood Church on the West Side.
And you know, if you're a young adult or a college student,
you're more than welcome. We do dinner at 7:00 and we do

(15:04):
Bible study at 8. And then, you know, we just last
night we did, we did at the university on campus there, but
we're almost always at the church and you can follow us on
Instagram. I think it's like Westwood young
adult or young adult Westwood one, one of the others.
And like those are the ways justkind of stay up to date, right,
What we're doing. So yeah, I.
I've really enjoyed coming to toTuesday night by the study and

(15:29):
the small group time that we have afterwards is some of the
most meaningful interactions that I've ever had in a small
group. And because I've never been in a
small group, like all my small groups before, it was like
people my age, but it's like more middle schoolers or high
schoolers or something like that, Like I'd never been in a
college group. And one thing I love about

(15:50):
campus outreach so much is that is the age group because I like,
especially now that I'm part of that age group, finally, I feel
like I'm like, like these are mypeople and they're my age.
Most of them or some of them, but they want to be here like
whenever, whenever you're in middle school and high school

(16:10):
and you go to church camp, your,your mom's telling you go to
church camp a lot of times, which is great.
And that's a good thing. But it's different than campus
average because at campus average, everyone wants to be
there. And some people even go out of
their way to, to be there. So I I like the environment at
at Tuesday nights. Yeah.
And and you mentioned like maybeone of the things I think is
like core to what we do, it's not just that we want people to

(16:33):
come and we want them to hear about the things of God.
We want that, right? We want people to hear the
gospel. We want them to hear the word of
God. We want people to talk about the
things of God, right? And I think that honestly,
that's just as, if not more important.
And you have people who are herebecause they want to be here,

(16:53):
the non Christian included, because, and that's what we're
seeing. I think now more than ever in
any generation, especially sinceI've been in college ministry, I
will throw since I've been in college, even Gen.
Z is thinking about the things of God more than ever.
And I think that a part of that is in a way that we help

(17:14):
facilitate that is by helping them discuss the things of God.
And so that's super simple. I always tell people and they're
always like, that's a odd way ofsaying it, but I'm like, you
know, I think sometimes we thinkabout ministry.
We think about reaching people. We have to be, we have to be
super sexy, right? We have to be flashy.
We got to do all this stuff. And it's like, it's actually

(17:34):
like probably the most boring thing ever.
Like if I told you, like, our model for ministry, you'd be
like, OK, yeah, yeah, yeah. But what do you do to get people
in the doorbell? We have food.
I teach for 25 minutes, and somebody else does it.
We kind of rotate through this and then we have a discussion

(17:54):
and then we worship and then alongside that we we do
discipleship, we do evangelism. We have small groups that happen
and and we the the biggest thingis we bring Christians into the
local gathering of the Saints. We want Christians to know
Tuesday night college ministry is not the church right?

(18:15):
You if if somebody says to me Tuesday nights is my church and
say that's, that's wrong. I'm I'm glad you're part of
Tuesday nights, but you need to understand that that's not the
point of Tuesday nights, right? I would actually rather somebody
go to Sunday mornings and not Tuesday nights.
Yeah. And why, why is Sunday at church
so important? Like why can't I just be a

(18:37):
Christian and do it by myself and just follow all the rules
or, or just go to a Bible study or something like that?
Yeah. You know, the, the thing that we
see in the Scriptures is this call for us to not neglect the
gathering of the Saints and the Saints or the OR, or, or we can
even use that word the, the church.
So it's often used to translate as church in the right
Testament. It's called ecclesia or

(18:57):
gathering. That includes every single
believer from all ages, right, from, you know, from the, the,
the four or five year old who's put their faith in Christ to the
75 or 8595 year old. And you know, maybe you're in
church. It's got 105 year old in it
who's put their faith in Christ,right?
And so when you're like my, my churches, you know, the Tuesday

(19:20):
night gathering of me and a bunch of my peers and our Bible
study. And it's like, what's great,
praise God that you have that type of gathering, but that's
not the gathering of all of the believers of God, the local
gathering. And so you first, you have that
issue, right? You, you have the, the
misapplication of the multi generational church.
And then secondly, you have the gathering on the Lord's Day as

(19:44):
people gather on the Lord's Day,which was identified on as
Sunday associated with the resurrection of Lord Jesus
Christ. You raised on the third day,
Sunday. So we gather on the Lord's Day
to worship. And then you have the, the idea
of elders. The pastor's being a part of
that. Now I am an elder, I'm a pastor.
And so somebody could go whoop, my pastor's here.

(20:04):
He's does Tuesday night. And it's like that's a
misapplication of that idea. The the the pastors are
shepherding the flock and then the administration of the
sacraments. Baptism in the Lord's Supper and
one of the things we won't do ona Tuesday nights, we're not
going to take the Lord's Supper.We're not going to do baptisms.
I and I and I know ministries like there's a, you know, the,

(20:25):
it's called unite and unite goesto college campuses and they do
these big events and they have baptisms and I think it looks so
cool, like I'm, I'm like I, I praise God.
You have people coming to faith and all the stuff.
People come forward to get baptisms and and I've really
wrestled with with those things of like, man, if somebody on a
Tuesday night came forward and said, hey, I want to get

(20:46):
baptized. Yeah, we did Tuesday night on
the quad last night. Somebody came forward last night
and said, hey, I want to put my faith in Jesus and I want to get
baptized right now. Like I really want to do this.
Like I just read the Ethiopian eunuch.
I saw that he said he wanted to get baptized and, you know, they
took him over to the water and the guy baptized.
Could we go get baptized in the fountain?
Like how would that be so cool, right?

(21:06):
It'd be amazing to be like the coolest Instagram post ever
about by somebody in the fountain.
But I think we see the sacraments performed in the
Lord's, say, gathering. They're with God's people as a
whole doing that. And so I think it's cool that
unite does that. But typically what we see the
normative flow of those things happens within the church

(21:27):
setting. And so that's those are like
little reasons. Why?
And I also think about the, I think I'm not even going to try
to remember what book it's in, but the body of God where Paul
talks about meeting together with the union of believers.
And he says that he's talking about people who are wanting to

(21:49):
do. I think it has something like
where he's talking about spiritual gifts and he's saying
like, well, if your gift is teaching, but you really want to
instead have the spiritual gift of, of prophecy and you're
trying really hard to do prophecy and you're not paying
attention to your teaching, thenyou're just you're, you're
harming the body of God. So he's saying like he compares

(22:13):
the, the, the union of believersto a literal body.
He says the eyes can't be the ears because then how, how's the
body going to see? And the leg can't be the arm
because the hell is the body going to walk.
And I think in the same vein, ifyou're the legs of the of the
church, then but you're off on your own, then not only can the
body not walk, but all you can do is walk.

(22:34):
He can't do anything else that abody can do.
You just pointed out, I think one of the maybe things that
sometimes gets neglected when wetalk about the the Christian who
tries to do it by themselves, weoften point out them we're like,
oh, you can't do it on your own.You're hurting your walk right.
And you pointed out you're, you're also hurting the body.
Yeah, right. You know, if you think about

(22:56):
like if, if something happened, let's say you're driving down
the Wood Expressway and you're, you're in all this construction
and somebody plows through and, and you get in a wreck and you,
you, you lose a leg. None of us are going to talk
about how your leg lost the body, right?
Right. But we're going, we are going to
talk about how you lost your leg, right?

(23:18):
And we should think a little bitmore about the church that way
as well. When there is The Lone Ranger
Christian, the church is losing something.
When there's a Lone Ranger Christian, and yes, The Lone
Ranger Christian is losing something, right?
He's a Lone Ranger. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, totally. The like there's so much that

(23:40):
you like, you could be contributing so much to to the
church, and that's God's plan for you.
And yeah, I mean, just think about all the, it makes me think
about this is dumb, but it makesme think about like Marvel or,
or like an alternate history YouTube channel where you have

(24:00):
like an alternate timeline. You're like, well, what could
have happened if if you had stuck around?
Like maybe things could have been way different.
Well, we we know what it's what's funny.
It's like your eyes. It's like often times we
actually do see what happens. Sometimes we'll we'll see two
siblings who will go off to college, one will get connected
to a local church and 1 won't and we get to see what if.

(24:23):
Right. And, and usually what happens is
the one who tries to do it on their own ends up wandering
around and they, they fall into all types of sin.
And by 2324, they've abandoned the faith entirely.
And the one over here is like, Ilove the Lord Jesus Christ.
I'm going to raise my family in the faith.
They're usually married earlier.They're usually in my, and it's

(24:43):
not just, this is funny. It's like, it's not just like
spiritual health that we're talking about.
Like usually they're like financially better, like, and
let's not say like being a Christian leads to finances,
right? But you're just usually like
over holistically healthier. And so there's something to be
said about some of that, I think.
Yeah, absolutely. The the Christian walk has a lot

(25:08):
of different purposes for doing it.
And the main one is to glorify God.
But also part of that is that you're gonna like, you're gonna
have fulfillment of life. You're like, you're gonna have
satisfaction, like it doesn't matter if you're like in a jail
cell or you're being tortured oror with trouble with things.
Yeah, but like you're gonna likehave like I'm I'm doing this for

(25:32):
God. I'm spreading the word and and
something that my pastor says, he says the worst thing that can
happen is you die to go. You get you excuse me.
You die and go to hell or not hell.
That is for. Saying that is.
The worst thing for No, he's saying for Christians, the worst
thing that can happen is you dieand go to heaven.
Yeah. And, and so, but like you were

(25:53):
saying, like there is a lot of like, like the Bible teaches
like not just like, oh, this is what's right.
Here's how to walk the Christianwalk, which all of it's the
Christian walk. It's like, here's how to have
good finances and how to, how toraise your children well and,
and there and how to have good relationships with people.
Like there's a lot there. That's it's all practical, but
like from a secular standpoint is very practical.

(26:15):
Yeah, Yeah, it is, which is why I like, I got like John C
Maxwell has made so much money. Who's that?
So John C Maxwell, he's a Christian.
He writes the he's wrote, he's probably made so much money off
writing like essentially the same book about 15 times over
now. Yeah, but he writes these
leadership books and these leadership books are rooted in

(26:35):
biblical principles. And most of them have.
I've read a handful of them because I'd read them in
seminary and they were driven more towards like pastoral
leadership and stuff like that. But most of them all include
like actual scripture in them. But these are books that non
Christians read because because it's true, right?

(26:55):
And so it's like there's some timeless truth here that applies
to financial success, to business success and all that.
You think about a guy like Dave Ramsey.
Most people. I was just about to then most
people. Disconnect that Dave Ramsey's a
Christian and you know, maybe he's harsh, maybe he's got some
ideas that you disagree with. And you know, I don't agree with
everything Dave Ramsey says, butat the end of the day, he's his.

(27:18):
The reason Dave Ramsey is probably financially successful
in many ways is because he is basing a lot of his view of
money and economics off of what he's founded than the
scriptures. And I went through a personal
finance class last year and it was a Ramsey course and they had
a ton of Bible verses in there. But they don't, they don't say

(27:40):
that they're bio verses and theydon't quote the Bible, but it's
right there, like almost verbatim.
Yeah. So, yeah, that's what I was
thinking about when you're when you're talking about that guy.
Yeah. So I would just change topics
for one thing that, I mean, likeI said, you're a really big part
of me coming to Christ. I mean, I could probably name 3

(28:03):
or 4 major points in my life that that got me to that point.
And and being in in the youth group that you're in at, at
Riverwind was definitely one of them.
One thing that really stood out to me about the way you
presented the gospel, and I didn't even plan to talk about
this, but we got to talking about it before, before we

(28:23):
started recording. So, so I made me thinking, I'm
glad we did. It's just how practically you
lay it out, like very, I don't like it.
Kind of almost like a proof, youknow, like in geometry, like I'm
looking at a poster on your wallright now.
It says did Jesus rise from the dead?

(28:45):
And then it's got like the knownfacts, best theories and
objections as theories like you'll like focus real heavily
on on the facts and but not liketoo much on the facts and and
misses first part. Like you get both in there very
well. But with the oh man, I always
forget the name of it that CS Lewis.

(29:05):
Thing of the Tri luma. The Tri luma Yeah, Jesus is
either crazy or or a liar or he's true.
Just kind of stuff like that. I mean, if you just want to talk
about that, I don't have really a specific question there.
I just, it's always stood out tome.
You know, I think some of that this desire to be both it's
almost maybe a logical, A logical thinker about the gospel

(29:29):
and also spiritual rights. It's not just you can't logic
your way into the Kingdom of God, right?
Logic is the word I was. Yeah, the the cross is folly to
the wisdom of the world. And so it's not rational, right,
That God would die on a cross tosave man.
Yeah, but that's the wisdom of God.

(29:50):
Yeah. And so the, you know, you can't
rationalize yourself into the Kingdom of God.
But there is some logic. We serve a God who says in the
beginning was the Lagos the Wordand the beginning is the word in
order with God and the word was God.
So there is aspect where you go,hey, there is some logic to
this. So let's make sure we're

(30:11):
presenting truth and we want to present truth well.
And I think that that's one thing that I really want to, and
that's a maybe I try to do better.
I'm, I'm always for continuing education.
You know, I have podcasts as well.
I do some stuff and I, I always want to get better at presenting
truth. How do I present truth better?

(30:32):
And so, you know, the trilemma liar, lunatic Lord, you know, I
think you pointed out the in theChronicles of Narnia that that
example. And so Lewis does it there.
He does it in their Christianitysomewhat.
I think he pulls this idea from someone else before him, but he
obviously is the one who gets famous for.

(30:53):
It anytime, anytime I say a quote and I don't remember who
it is, I just say CS Lewis. Yeah, it's like CS Lewis,
probably. Yeah, so, but you know, and then
I think about like, the individuals who influenced me
the most, CS Lewis and CS Lewis,I came.
I think I probably fell in love with CS Lewis maybe, maybe two

(31:15):
years ago, went to Oxford in 2021.
You know, Lewis was educated at Oxford, taught at Oxford.
I read the Constantinians growing up but really fell in
love with Louis. About two years ago I decided to
read all of the major works of Louis.
I haven't read all the letters but read all the major works.

(31:35):
Read the biography of Harry by Harry Allen Poe.
Last year or this past summer I went to the Kilns.
I saw where Louis is buried, sawwhere I live.
I was in Oxford and this spring I went to to Cambridge, saw
where he taught and so so Louis super influential.
Guys like RC Sproul, super influential.
William Lane Craig, super influential.

(31:55):
Those guys give me this like logic and this like
argumentative side of the faith for me.
But then I love the early churchfathers and they give me the
like theology, right Sprole and Piper, You know, I'm looking at
griddleman frame right now. Like those guys give me some
theology and like the the facts of the faith.

(32:19):
But then I read the early churchfathers, you know, whether it's,
you know, Polycarp Ignatius, youknow, Clement of Alexandria,
even some of origin of Alexandria origin goes on to
have some crazy views. But I love, I love some of
origins homilies because they'reso Christ centered.

(32:39):
You know, Gregory of Nazianzis and Nyssa and Augustine
Augustine's Confessions, like those those works I love because
they bring out the, the fire within the gospel.
And then a guy like Martin LloydJones, who his work, the classic
worth studies in the Sermon on the Mount is like the
culmination of all of that for me, of it's, it's logic on fire.

(33:05):
And so for me in whether it's mygospel presentations, my, my
preaching, my teaching, that I, I, I'm like a product of all of
these people and wanting to be clear and wanting to be faithful
to what the text says and wanting to be like, I want
people to like, know, I'm excited about it.

(33:25):
Like I'm, I believe this thing to be true.
I'm excited about the truth of this.
And I want you to be excited that this is true.
And so, you know, whether it's the trilemma or just the simple
fact that we have a God who, even though he didn't have to,
became a man and died so that sinners can be reconciled unto
himself and was raised from the grave on the third day.

(33:47):
Like, like that simple reality is just amazing to me.
And so I want people to understand that.
And I want to explain that in the simplest way possible for
people because it is it's actually so simple.
Jesus says, let the children, little children come to me.
The that means children can come.
And I'm, I'm a, I'm a child, I'ma, I'm a dummy.

(34:09):
And so I I need the simple because the cross is foolishness
to the world, but it's the wisdom of God, and I need the
foolishness of the world, and I will be saved.
Yeah, and you talked about kind of uniting both the the
spiritual and the logical. What do you think are some
dangers of falling too far into one of those trenches?

(34:33):
Yeah, I made a speaker experience on at least one side
of them. The other one I've I've seen,
I've seen the other one. So the the logical ones, the one
I've probably fallen into the most.
And there's just this there's a danger of just becoming too fact
driven and not that facts and truth aren't important in the
sense of the Christian faith, but to the extent that you

(34:57):
become almost hypercritical everyone else, because now you
go from well, here here's what is true.
There's a God, we've sinned God rest uses through the gospel,
right? You have your your primary
things. And so usually those that tend

(35:17):
to be logic driven, fact, maybe fact, truth driven,
theologically inclined in those ways tend to make every single
thing a primary the issue. In terms of the doctrine and
theology, yeah. With other Christians.
Yeah, yeah. And so from, you know, how you
view the end times, like how theworld's going to end to baptism

(35:40):
to, you know, maybe prayed in tongues, like spiritual guilt
and those types of things, like all of that becomes like a
primary issue. So if you disagree with me on
any of that, you're not a Christian and or you're a lesser
Christian. And I actually don't know which
ones were right to be considereda lesser Christian or not a

(36:02):
Christian at all by someone. And you know, I, I run into a
lot of these type of people still, right?
And who are like, why? I've read, I've read John Frame,
I've read John Calvin and, and because of this, now I'm the
more superior Christian. And it's like, oh man, I have,
I've been there. I know the theological pride

(36:24):
that comes from that. And so like I, I love a guy.
His name is Gavin Ortland and truth unites is his YouTube
channel. And he, he, he wrote a book
called Theological triage. And I, I wish I would have been
handed that book like year one of being a Christian because he
does such a good job of highlighting what you need to

(36:46):
keep as the main thing. And so that's the danger for
most people is that people forget that there's a main thing
when it comes to Christianity and that we want to be brothers
and sisters that disagree on these things.
But we're still brothers and sisters.
Yeah. The other side, the those maybe
emphasize the spiritual side toomuch.

(37:08):
They they over emphasize and I guess the the factor of a logic
driven maybe de emphasize as well, like emotions and
spirituality and and that we have a God who does care about
our emotions and does care aboutthat.
The other side of the coin says how we don't need any of that.
No creed but the Bible. You know, I don't, I don't need

(37:31):
to know things about God. I just need to experience God.
And it's like, well, what do youdo when you can't feel God?
What do you do when the song doesn't Heck, you feel God and
he feels far away. And it's like you need theology,
you need the logic, you need thefacts.
You know, sometimes the thing that keeps me going in the, in
the Christian walk, in the Christian race isn't because I

(37:54):
feel God, but it's because I, I understand that the thing that
makes the most sense in the world is that Jesus really did
rise from the grave. And if that is true, then
nothing else in the world matters but following him and
that and that's it. Like that's all I can hold on to
because that's all I can believeis the gospel.
And so you don't believe it because you feel that you

(38:17):
believe it because it's true. Yeah.
And so those that overemphasize the spiritual maybe
overemphasize emotions. Yeah.
And that that kind of makes me think of, excuse me, that kind
of makes me think of a kind of the secular worldview view of
marriage worldview view that youcould be married to someone, but

(38:42):
then once you start losing feelings, then you don't really
love them anymore. And now it's time to leave.
Yeah. And definitely.
And marriage in the Bible, I mean, it's, it's a it's a direct
picture of Jesus's relationship with the with the Christ, with
the bride. It's too early with the church.

(39:03):
Jesus is relationship with the church and I think in the same
way like, you know, in a good marriage, like you're in any
marriage, you're supposed to persevere through times of of
not maybe feeling all that greatabout your spouse.
Persevere through that. In the same way, there's times
where as a Christian, you're notgoing to feel you're not going

(39:26):
to feel God and you're not goingto want to sing in church and
you're going to just not feel good.
You're not going to feel it. You're not going to be feeling
it like you were especially it reminds me of the like the seeds
that sprouted on rocky soil and that parable like that for they
sprout. Is it the rocky soil?
I don't remember which soil it was, but they they the seeds

(39:47):
sprout and they flourish really fast and really big, but then
they burn out and nothing comes of it.
Like they like new believers. So they'll be really on fire.
And then whenever they get to that point where there's a
plateau or even sort of an absence of feeling that.
God's presence. They're, they're, they don't
persevere. And then they kind of they fall

(40:08):
off. You know, yeah.
What? Was I going to say about that?
I don't know. But yeah.
Where? What were you going to say?
People run when it gets hard because that's all they've based
everything on. Is is an emotion.
I was going to say, what would you say to someone who who's
maybe feeling that, whether they're a new believer or or
not? I, I'm kind of trying to scam my

(40:30):
bookshelf that's behind you. I, I just read a book by Oz
Guinness. It's called God in the Dark, and
I'm seeing it right now. It's, it's a really fantastic
book. I think it was written in the
90s Oz Guinness is a, he's an apologist kind of a cultural
commentator as well. And this book actually walks
through those who struggle with a doubt.

(40:51):
And I think that I, and this would be maybe just an overall
idea. First and foremost is that first
we have to be OK with doubt. Ask Christians, We, we have to,
we have to be comfortable with that.
And that makes us uncomfortable,right?
That like, yeah, like, no, no, no, like it's, it's OK.
Like you're, you're going to have questions.

(41:12):
You're going to experience thosethings.
And that's a normal part of life.
It's what you do with that that we now begin to like struggle
with, right? You can be a skeptic, but not a
cynic. A cynic says, I have doubt, I
have questions, I don't think God can answer them.
A skeptic says, I have doubts, Ihave questions.

(41:32):
I trust that God is good and that he's going to give me and
he's going to give me answers. Maybe this side of eternity or
the other. And so and the guy in the dark,
he actually talks about this type of example, the person who
over emphasizes emotions and struggles in like what those
individuals should do. And I said, so I really
recommend the book for maybe a further discussion of it.

(41:54):
But but his like #1 emphasis in the book is invite people into
it. I'm really struggling with not
feeling God. And they invite people into it
and they'll look to the Psalms. That's my, my, my key point.
Look to the Psalms. David had your experience.
David had your experience. King David, the man after God's

(42:16):
own heart said, Oh God, where are you?
And so I find great comfort in knowing that David had my
experience. Yeah.
And and like you're saying with jumping into the Psalms,
something that that helps me whenever I'm feeling, when I'm
not feeling God's presence and, and I kind of feel like alone,

(42:38):
there is what I'll do. And I just whether I'm in church
and we're singing, like I'll raise my hands, especially if I
don't want to. And, and I'll read the Bible
like the, the less I wanted to read the Bible, like if I really
feel like, Oh man, I don't want to get into word today.
Like it's kind of like it's a red flag to me.
And like, Oh, I, I really need to get into the word today,

(43:00):
maybe even more than than I did yesterday because I don't want
to today. I did yesterday.
And that's something that has always helped me.
But I mean, I personally, one ofmy big struggles is, is, is
trying to do the walk alone. And so I think what you're
saying about inviting other people into that is really good.
I need to probably try to do that with with the when I'm not

(43:24):
feeling that the community, something that I've that God's
really been working on me latelyis just community, letting
people and letting people help me.
It's so hard. I we, we ever, ever since the
garden, we have ran from community.

(43:44):
Yeah, ironically, we long for it.
We long for authenticity. We long for real relationships.
We're absolutely terrified of it.
Yeah, shame and guilt keep us from it.
Yet the only thing that seems toovercome shame and guilt is

(44:05):
actually being in community where we can confess in and have
the gospel hope pointed to, and where we rest in Jesus together.
Yeah. And so I find it really ironic
that that is the way the world works in some way, some sense.
Yeah, Yeah. Now I know exactly what you're
talking about and even like justfeeling that desire to to be in

(44:29):
community or, or, or fellowship with God or anything like that,
but then also at the same time just not doing it.
It's yeah, OK. That's definitely something that
that's real and something that you got to fight.
Yeah. Because I mean, it's right there
as a, as a Christian, you've gotthe Holy Spirit and the Holy
Spirit's right there telling youlike, hey, you need to be doing

(44:51):
this. And you can even like, like
you're saying, just feel a desire to do it.
But you're then the, the flesh is, I mean, that's like it right
there. You're seeing a battle against
the flesh and the Spirit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The flesh wants us to hide, right?
You know, you think about Adam and Eve, right?
What's the first thing they do whenever they sin?
They hid. They went and hide.

(45:12):
They hid themselves and God's like, where are you?
But he doesn't know, right. He has like he knows.
Yeah, No, no question for you. Just as I you know, I'm, I do
college ministry. I interact with young adults and
it's pretty amazing. I hear the I think I told you

(45:32):
this last year and you know, youweren't in college yet last
year, but you're coming some stuff and but you're you're the
first person that like was in that age group of individuals
who was I was part of ministry with doing high school, middle
school. Stuff with.
Right, who's now come into yeah,college and so Yep.
From 6th grade to freshman in college.

(45:55):
So you, you've, you're seeing, Ithink 1 of maybe the most unique
changes in the past 2530 years and, and within American culture
and Christianity. Yeah.
So why don't you tell me about what you're seeing within that?
Oh, sure. I'm flipping the script.
Yeah. OK.
Have you do you listen to the podcast?

(46:16):
I think you know this guy Every square inch.
Yeah, Yeah. Did you?
Robert Cunningham. Yeah, did you listen to his
episode on the quiet revival in Britain?
I actually didn't, but I'm I knew about the quiet revival.
Yeah, so he's talking about in the UK, he's talking about, see,

(46:38):
this isn't really my experience,but I listen to the news a lot
and I listen to a lot of podcasts and this is something I
see there. And then I took my personal
experience in a second. But one thing I just got to say
is before I forget, but one thing that they're seeing there
in in Britain and then starting to see a trend towards that in
America is like a quiet revival that's not being reported on, is

(47:03):
not being documented as well as it should be of especially young
men my age, especially men and, and my generation coming back to
church. And I say coming back like from
like a generation or two of men not being in the church a lot
and like massive numbers of men coming in like out of nowhere,

(47:27):
especially after COVID. So that's something that that
I've heard about and that they're starting to see in the
United States. Man, for me, my personal
experience, I mean, I, so I wentto Evansville Christian School
all the way up until 9th grade. I mean, my whole life and until

(47:51):
9th grade. And I knew a lot of people
there, obviously. And I was way different back
then, as you know, and they wereway different back then.
And, but coming to Westwood these past few times on Tuesday
nights, I've been getting to seesome of them, especially I

(48:11):
talked to, to Jonah and, and Luke, who were two of my good
friends like ages ago, like in elementary school, high school a
little bit. And, and we just got to talking
and it. And I haven't seen these guys in
like 4 or five years, 3 or 4 years.
And, and we kind of all had moreor less the same testimony.

(48:37):
And it was, I grew up in a Christian home and grow up in a
Christian. I mean, you've heard this 1000
times, like growing up in a Christian home and, and going to
church. And then you think you become a
Christian and, and then later onyou realize that you're not.
And, and then you do become a Christian.
And for, for me and, and Jonah, I don't, I don't know exactly

(49:00):
for Luke, but for me and Jonah, like we both became Christians
after I left. So like I had never known him
before, whenever he's a Christian.
And now I'm getting to like see him again, talk to him.
And it's just been really cool. It's been, I really enjoyed
that. But that's something that, I
mean, I hope I see more people coming to.

(49:21):
Obviously not everyone who went to to Evansville Christian went
to USI, but I hope I get to see more of them.
They should, yeah. But I think if I had to narrow
down, I mean, I would just say Idon't know.
Most of my friends are way olderthan me.
Yeah. Or way younger than me.
Yeah. And that's some that's the

(49:44):
pattern I've seen is, is guys coming back to the faith,
leaving the faith and then realizing like, oh, that man,
this, this stuff. What?
This was the real deal. And yeah.
I mean, that's what I'm seeing, right?
That's the, I'm, I'm experiencing that seeing that a
little bit more maybe than you are in the sense of being just
on the front lines, right? But that's, that's what I'm
seeing as well. And so there's a podcast called

(50:06):
The Surprising Rebirth of Beliefin God by Justin Brierley, and
he talks a lot about that. He's in the UK.
And so he I think he was actually one of the first ones
to maybe even coined the term quiet revival.
But they talk a lot about a reenchantment with Jesus.
It's not just people are believing in God.

(50:27):
They're they're believing in Jesus.
Yeah. And I think that is the thing
that we want to emphasize. I you've said it, I don't think
this is just auk thing. I think this is how across the
world people are becoming re enchanted with Jesus.
They're becoming enthralled withthe fact that there is a God who
saves, who hears them, who they can live for, who brings purpose
and satisfaction to their lives.Yeah, culture is like a

(50:50):
pendulum, Pendulum, pendulum. And it swings far one way and
then and then overcorrects and swings the other way.
And I feel like I don't want to get political, but I feel like
culture has gotten super, super liberal.

(51:13):
And the last time it was this bad, there was a big revival
right afterwards. And and then from that revival,
like the Great Awakening, there was a lot of swinging the wrong
or swinging too far one way where you get into some kind of
very aggressive evangelism, which may not be the best way to

(51:35):
go about things, but. You hopefully we learned
something about the second rightawakening that we don't want to
do. I'm saying like, I, I don't
know, I'm only 18. I don't want to sound like an
old guy here, but I, I am a hugehistory buff.
I want to be a history teacher. I pay attention to the news that
I like, paying attention to these things that I don't know.
I just kind of see, I see thingsmoving the the other direction

(51:59):
and I hope, I really hope they do.
I, I was listening to this thingthe other day where this guy was
talking about. So he he's Gen.
X, so he's talking about. And and that's.
What is that so? No millennials Gen.
YXY. So it's like my parents
generation. So your mom's probably Gen.
X. So OK, so his his dad was

(52:19):
boomers. And so he talks about growing
up, they always went to church and they were forced to go to
church. And so by the time he was old
enough to make the decision about church.
And so this is true of most Gen.X and older millennials and and
majority of millennials really. And you're a millennial, right?
I'm, I'm a cusper. And so I'm right on the cusp of

(52:41):
millennial and Gen. Z.
And so I kind of I kind of am homeless in some way.
So it depends on the on the study you look at, right?
Some would put me in Gen. Z, some would put me in
millennial. I have a lot of most of my
cultural experience is actually Gen.
ZI don't OK, I don't remember a lot of millennial culture like
your traditional millennial and so.

(53:03):
The. The millennial and Gen.
X, because of the boomer parent was forced to go to church.
And so they didn't when when they had kids that will you
know, they, they get to 1819, they didn't go to church.
They left the church. They left the faith entirely.
And what they didn't do was theydidn't force their children to

(53:23):
go to church. And now all of a sudden their
kids are Gen. Z and Gen.
Alpha and they're wanting to go to church.
And this guy, he's, he's tellingthe story.
So he says, my dad always made us to go to church and I said, I
don't want to go to church. And so I stopped going to
church. We have a 16 year old son who

(53:43):
wants to go to church and we're going to church with him.
And it's fascinating that parents are now coming to church
with their children. You know, now that you say that,
I went to a a leadership camp a few years back and it wasn't a
Christian camp, but there's a lot of Christians there and, you

(54:05):
know, swearing the Bible belt. And there was a lot of people
saying things like that about taking their parents to church
with them. And then I heard the same things
whenever I went to Summit a couple months ago or a month
ago, kind of like another summercamp type thing.
People saying like, Oh yeah, I'll go to church and because we

(54:28):
have like all these lectures andwe'll ask some questions
afterwards. And a lot of the questions were
like, how do I get my parents togo to church with me?
How do I get my siblings to go to church with me?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went to to ARC, the Alliance
for Responsible Citizenship. Jordan Peterson kind of puts
that on. Not a Christian conference, you
know, 4 or 5000 people fair fairly small gathering.

(54:50):
You know, in the UK it's it's small gathering in the sense of
like, you know, Jordan Peterson conference, you know, and the
caliber speakers and the the desire of this conference is
talk about conservativism. Not, you know, in the sense of
like, you know, as we think maybe in the political sphere of
like Conservative party, but in the sense of conservative

(55:13):
values, right. Yeah, the good, the true and the
beautiful one by those and the, the underlying tone of it is
really this. How do we promote Christianity?
How do we, how do we really. And Pearson's not Christian,
right? And so no, he's, he's not a
Christian. He, he likes Christianity, but
he doesn't seem to be a Christian.

(55:34):
And, and some people would disagree.
I have a video breaking down that conversation he had.
And so I, I don't think he is anyway based on some things he
said, but the, the, the underlying tone is this like the
best is built on Christian values.
And if we don't protect those with a conserve, which is a
conservative idea to protect ourtraditions, progressivism wants

(55:58):
to destroy tradition, right? If we don't protect those, the
world is going to fall apart. And so I was going to us again,
great thinker has this idea we're at a crux in moment a a
generational moment where we canface ruin, renewal or like

(56:23):
reformation or restoration is maybe the word that he uses.
And and so we we have to decide are options are options.
What were they ruin or renewal? And I think, I think the third
one's like restoration, but or, or something like that, but it's
kind of like a, an offshoot idea.
They're like renewal or ruin Is our two options really that

(56:46):
we're faced with? And if we don't fight for our
values, we're going to face one or the other.
And, and part of what I think ishappening is that young people,
young men in particular, say, don't want to ruin.
I don't want to see the Western culture ruined.
How do we contend for this? And they're looking at how our
world was set up, how the Western world was set up, the

(57:07):
Western values. They see that they're rooted in
Christian principles. And they're going, well, I can't
just have the Christian principles without having the
Christian faith. And so they begin exploring.
And what they find is not just principles to base a life on,
but a God who's worth serving. I think that's what's happening
in our culture. Yeah, hear about a lot of guys

(57:27):
getting drawn in to Christianitythrough like.
What? Well, I'm totally blanking.
They get drawn in Christianity. I I might say the wrong thing
here because I don't listen to him, but like Andrew Tate or or
or Charlie Kirk, sort of like Lucas Miles more.

(57:49):
But and then they they get to church and they're kind of like
they kind of got. No, I'm totally I'm totally
mixing up two stories here. I'm thinking of the story where
a lot of people would go into progressive Christianity, which
is not Christianity, and then they would get a taste of that
Christianity, and then they would start to read the Bible.

(58:12):
And then they would realize, oh,that's not how it's supposed to
be. And then they end up coming to
true Christianity and they leavethe progressive church.
Yeah, Yeah, I was thinking of something.
There's this old story, and I don't remember when it is, but
the story is that this guy findsa copy of the Gospels and and
and he comes for, he reads them and he comes forward and he

(58:33):
says, friends, either these aren't the Gospels or we're not
Christians. Wow.
And then when was this? I think it's in the Reformation
age, like or yeah, 16th, 17th century.
And I can't, I'm not sure. I've just thought it's one of
those stories just kind of here.I sound like the the statement
you know sin keeps you longer than you want to stay takes you

(58:53):
farther than you want to go. CS Lewis.
And yeah, so it's like nobody knows you said the statement,
but somebody did. And so, but it's one of those
stories that I've just always heard and so.
Yeah, well, you have a podcast. Yeah, I wanna.
Close the podcast. Yes, I do a podcast on Spotify

(59:14):
and Apple. It's called the Fourfold
Disciple. You know, I do.
I work for ministries as well asanother as ministry.
It focuses on engaging young adults with the gospel of Jesus
Christ, helping them grow as disciples.
We want to help disciples becomedisciples and we want to help
the the lost be challenged with Jesus.

(59:34):
And so my podcast focuses on kind of the four feet, four
different spheres of being a Christian.
You know, being a Christian is ais fourfold as your disciple of
Christ, Saints and sources and culture.
And so kind of engaging those 4 spheres, you know, in different
ways. And so I do a podcast and so

(59:55):
it's available on Spotify and Apple podcasts under 4 full
disciple. And then on YouTube, it's just
in ministries and that's that's how you can find it there.
And so we do it. They're all video.
And so it's audio on Apple only.I think.
I don't I don't know if it pushes to be actually.
Never looked to see if it's a video on Apple.
You can do videos on Apple Podcasts, but most people don't.
Yeah, so I know it's video on Spotify, but it's it's it's

(01:00:18):
definitely a video on YouTube. And so do a lot of reaction
stuff, talk about culture, or doa lot of talking about culture
where the church is at right now.
I like the book. Reviews do do book reviews.
I'm getting ready to start doinggoing to start doing on top of
kind of what we've been doing church history series and we're
just going to start working through church history.

(01:00:41):
I think church history is super important to know our history,
to know Christian theology better and so want to do that
and provide that as a resource available for people to grow and
the grace knowledge of Christ so.
That's awesome. Yeah, go check out The Fourfold
Disciple. All.
Right. Well, do you have anything else
to add before we wrap? Up No, this is great.

(01:01:01):
Keep doing what you're doing. Keep thinking about the world,
thinking about the world that welive in and that the world that
we live in really only makes sense if there is a God who made
it and who's looking to restore it and reconcile it unto
himself. Yeah, absolutely.
All right, well, I'll pray yourself then.
Yeah. Dear God, thank you for this.

(01:01:25):
Thank you for this opportunity to to talk to Christian here.
God, thank you that I've had theblessing to to know him all
these years. And thank you for the impact
he's made on my life and lives of so many others.
Lord, and I pray that you'll just bless his ministry here at
Westwood and, and USI with campus outreach and with
ministries and his podcast and everything else he's got going

(01:01:47):
on. Lord God, he, he's doing good
work in your Kingdom. So the devil wants to take him
out, Lord, And I pray that you just place a hedge of protection
around him and his family, God, that you will protect them from
the schemes that you have won, that you will draw them close to
you, Lord and God, I, I just laythis, this podcast here down at

(01:02:11):
your feet. God, I pray that you'll use this
however you like and that that someone can really, really be
impacted through our words here and, and see you in it, Lord,
and thank you for sending your son to dies for us.
God, thank you for your your kindness and and that your
mercies are new every morning. Christ and I pray, Amen.