A Guide To The Many Chathams

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What does it mean to belong to a place? Standing in the famous gazebo at the intersection of multiple boundaries – the village of Chatham, the town of Chatham, and perhaps even the town of Ghent – this question feels especially important.

This rural upstate New York community actually comprises numerous Chathams: Old Chatham, North Chatham, East Chatham, Chatham Center, and the village itself. And, of course, Malden Bridge.

Through conversations with lifelong residents and relative newcomers, we get to know the layers of identity that define this rural community: Melissa Davis, who recently opened a boutique on Main Street with Sherri Marton (Marton & Davis), lovingly compares the village to Stars Hollow from Gilmore Girls, complete with quirky characters and a strong sense of community.

Meanwhile, Jeanne Veillette Bowerman, who manages an antique shop in the oldest building in the village (reportedly inhabited by 19th-century spirits), sees the ghosts of a Chatham that no longer exists.

The community stands at a crossroads of preservation and change. The historic Crandell Theater is being restored to its 1920s glory, though not to the version most longtime locals might remember. The Shaker Museum recently broke ground on a new headquarters. The Harlem Valley Rail Trail will soon connect Chatham to Wassaic, 46 miles away, and all the while, the Chatham Dirt Road Coalition fights to protect the town's 50-plus miles of unpaved roads from the pavers, seeing them as essential to maintaining rural character here.

Hidden histories emerge at every turn – from the modest farmhouse where the Three Stooges once lived to avoid the World War I draft to the 153-year-old clock still keeping time above Main Street. Each story reveals how communities navigate the delicate balance between honoring the past and embracing the future.

To hear my previous episode in Chatham, featuring our anonymous food critic The Hungry Eye and the Great Chatham Bake-Off, click here.

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"The Jiffy Audio Newsletter Podcast" is an audio documentary zine – the official podcast of The Jiffy – exploring the odd histories, cozy mysteries, and surprising characters of upstate New York. Each episode is a small adventure, told with curiosity, humor, and the occasional text message from a stranger.

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Episode Transcript

James Cave (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the Jiffy, a podcast about
upstate New York that reallytakes you places, and right now
I'm standing in the gazebo.
I'm in the town of Chatham inits world-famous gazebo, or
maybe it's in the village ofChatham, or maybe it's in the
part of the village of Chathamthat's in the town of Ghent.
The point is, the gazebo isright on the border and, frankly
, it's all a bit confusing andit's hard for me to know,

(00:26):
especially when you considerthat, in addition to the village
of Chatham, within the town ofChatham there's also Old Chatham
, north Chatham, east Chathamand a Chatham Center and, of
course, malden Bridge.
There's a few other hamlets too, but Chatham is a special place
, whichever Chatham you'restanding in, but don't take my
word for it.
I recently met with MelissaDavis who, with her friend

(00:46):
Sherry Martin, opened up a newboutique on Main Street just
this summer.
Here's how Melissa describesChatham.

Melissa Davis (00:52):
There's a lot going on in Chatham and there's
a lot about to happen in Chatham.
That's really exciting.
As you probably know, theCrandall is reopening this fall,
which Sherry and I are soexcited about personally because
we both, you know, see movieson the regular at the Crandall.
And you know, as you know, theShaker Museum will begin
construction at the end of thesummer.

(01:12):
The Harlem Valley Rail Trailwill be bringing people into the
village and then the Blue PlateRestaurant is, you know,
undergoing changes, a whole newowner and a new restaurant which
we opening, you know, sometimesoon.
So there is there's a lot ofgoing on in our village and you

(01:35):
know it's funny.
You know, before my husband andI and our son moved to Chatham,
we used to always joke about howit was Stars Hollow from
Gilmore Girls, you know.
I mean we were like, oh my gosh, there's a gazebo, there's like
it's so Stars Hollow.
And I have to say that livinghere it really kind of is.
I mean it really kind of is.

(01:57):
There's this really wonderfulmagic to it.
There's a cast of quirkycharacters, there's a real sense
of community.
You know we, like I said, Ilive in the village and there
are, I know my neighbors reallywell and my neighbors all
support each other and we loveeach other and it's it's

(02:18):
honestly the most idyllic placeto live and now to to have our
business.
You know, it know, there'ssomething about Chatham, it's
just kind of magical.

James Cave (02:28):
It's full of stories and histories and, as you just
heard from Melissa Chatham's,going through another wave of
change.
I mean, when the CrandallTheater reopens, it will be
renovated back to something moreclosely resembling its original
state in the 1920s which, as ithappens, predates a lot of the
Crandall Theater that the peoplewho grew up here would

(02:49):
recognize.
They grew up with a laterversion of the theater, so
that'll be interesting to see.
And down the street, of course,the Shaker Museum the world
famous Shaker Museum brokeground this year on its new
headquarters and historic brickbuilding.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
I would like to pause here for a brief, helpful note
about our program today.

James Cave (03:04):
Also happens to be by the train tracks.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
As you are all probably well aware, we may be
interrupted at some point duringour program by a passing train.
If this does occur, we haveasked our speakers to please
pause their remarks and weinvite you to spend three to
four minutes getting to knowyour neighbors.

James Cave (03:24):
That's audio from the groundbreaking ceremony
earlier this year, where theyare digging in with their blue
shovels and breaking ground.
So, yes, melissa's right topoint out that there is quite a
bit going on here right now.
Well, to understand what itmight mean to be on the front
end of a new chapter in thishistoric town, we are going to
get to know our neighbors.
Let me introduce you.

(03:45):
Hey Pete, this is Pete Toego.
Pete is a legendary musician.
Hey Pete, how long have youlived here?

Pete Toigo (03:50):
in Chatham.
So that's 60 years coming up.
September 1st will be 60 yearsbecause I know that date,
because that's the date on myparents' deed, pete actually
still lives in the house he grewup in.
One day dad called her and saidI found the house we're going
to buy.
This is a house, and that's ahouse that I still own up on
Locust Street.
That was in 1965.
And it's the house where you'reliving, right now it's the house
where I'm living right now,which I you know.

(04:10):
I'm really blessed.
I guess my mother, who was anattorney, she, when she was
still alive, she had helped mybrother buy a house my older
brother.
So at some point she said, well, I mean, this house is going to
be your house.
So she sold it to me for adollar and she gave herself a
life estate and she lived outthe last years of her life there
.
But when she died it becamemine.
So on the deed it says for theconsideration of one US dollar

(04:33):
and I've managed to keep the taxbills paid since then and the
utility bills and I'm still herefor now.
Here we are in 2025.

James Cave (04:42):
And this is Jeannie Villette Bowerman.
Over here she manages theantique shop that occupies the
oldest building in the village.
It was built in 1811.
Her store is called Old 1811Antiques and she grew up here
too.
So tell me, I would like tohear you just sort of like
describe Chatham, like what'shappening with Chatham, what is
Chatham today?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (05:01):
I to me it was always a quaint little
country town where everybodyknew each other.
You know you everybody.
It was like cheers, likeeverybody knew your name and we
knew.
This is how I described tosomebody what the difference is
between a local local and alocal like a new local.
If we didn't play with you onthe playground, we don't 100%

(05:28):
trust you, because anybody canbe anything they want when they
grow up.
But when you played with themwhen you were five years old,
you remember what they were likeand that's typically what
they're still like.
So when we go on Chathamcommunity page on Facebook the
local locals, the generationallocals we just laugh our butts
off about some of the stuff thatpeople are saying, cause it's
like oh yeah, that's so-and-so,oh, that's such a thing for
so-and-so to say and we don'ttake anything personally Like we

(05:51):
just let it roll.
But if you just moved here andyou don't know who we are like
that, it would be very easy tobe offended.

James Cave (06:00):
Okay, to get more perspective on this, I met up
with Greg Berninger.
He's the municipal historianfor Ghent, which borders Chatham
, and whenever I need an answerfor anything I always call up my
neighbor, a local historian,because they always have the
answer.
And we met on the baseballfield at Chatham High School
because I think it illustratessomething really important.

Gregg Berninger (06:18):
All right.
So we just crossed the border,we didn't have to show any ID or
passports.
But we are in the village ofChatham, on the pitcher's mound,
the Chatham High Schoolbaseball field, or on the
pitcher's mound, which is in thevillage of Chatham and the town

(06:40):
of Chatham also, and if I wereto throw a pitch from here, I
would be throwing into Ghent andthe batter would probably want
to hit it from Ghent to Chathamand then, if they hit it far
enough, they'd get to runthrough two towns to get back to
home base.
And we might be the only peoplewho know that, james, but I

(07:01):
don't know how many people herethink about it If I was going to
announce these games, I wouldbring it up on every call every
time somebody got a hit.
So I guess we're talking todayabout the Chathams.
Yeah, but you're the historianfor Ghent is that right, that's
right.
So I've been the town historianfor Ghent since 2018.
Every municipality in New YorkState is required by law to have

(07:24):
an historian, so I thinkthere's about 1,500 of us maybe
it's better if maybe it's moreappropriate if you're in the you
know, we should probably walkback over there.
Um, I don't really have alicense to to history, so, all
right, I don't want you to getany trouble.
No, trouble, no, I appreciatethat.
All right, so we're back.
We're on home plate, home plate.

(07:45):
You know, it's a littlesymbolic to be home for me
anyway, on home plate here.

James Cave (07:51):
Okay, so standing here in Ghent, let's look into
the Chathams, because I'mlooking out now and I have a
question which is a little bitconfounding for me, but it seems
like there's a few places thathave Chatham in the name.
I was wondering if you couldtell me a little bit about how
that came to pass.

Gregg Berninger (08:08):
Yeah, well, if you're looking for a question to
ask wherever you are, you haveto say why is this place here?
Right, why did people settle inthis hamlet?
First of all, a hamlet is anunincorporated settlement, it's
just where people all happen togather and live.
So why is it?
And there are a coupledifferent answers.

(08:30):
It might be a crossroads place,so where roads used to cross,
those like the village ofKinderhook, and that's very old
because roads were the firsttransportation.
And then you have a place wherethe trains came, like in the
village of Chatham.
So the village of Chathamexists because five rail lines

(08:52):
at once converged.
About 90 to 100 trains a daypassed through at its peak.
And then in Chatham inparticular, the town of Chatham,
it seems you know it's sort ofthere in the names.
And if you look carefully whenyou go to these places a lot of
them you'll see a foundation fora mill.
So if you go to Riders Millsand you go down to the creek,

(09:16):
you'll see where the mills usedto be.
If you go to Malden Bridge,which is conveniently, there's a
bridge but you'll also see amill foundation.
In mills you could get yourwheat or oats ground there into
flour and sell it.
Take some home to make your ownbread.
Maybe you had apples made intocider logs, sawn, things like

(09:38):
that.
So you have to ask why is theplace there to begin with?
That'll tell you an awful lot.
And it's often buried in thename.
Now, chatham's interestingbecause, again, I'm not the town
historian of Chatham, but oldChatham.
There was, if memory serves, uh, chatham.
Old Chatham and what we nowknow as the village of Chatham
were kind of in a rivalry of whowas going to be the sort of

(10:00):
center of things, and of courseall the railroads brought it all
down here.
So that's why I think that'sold chatham, and otherwise it's
not that hard to eat.
What?
What's east of old chatham?
James, I'm gonna go with eastchat.
Yes, very good, we'll give youa half a point.
Thank you, uh, for that.
And then what's sort of northof there?
That would be north chatham.

(10:20):
Well done, very well done.
I'm on a roll.
I've been doing some researchand where's the Chatham Town
Hall right now, which isconveniently?

James Cave (10:30):
Oh God, Chatham Center.

Gregg Berninger (10:33):
Chatham Center, Chatham Center yes yes, chatham
took an old school and made it.
You know what you know.
See, this is why I'm from Ghent, because that's actually not
where the Chatham Hall is.
Town hall is.
It's where it was.
Maybe that's why it was calledChatham Center, I don't know,
but it's now the synagogue upthere that used to be a school,
but now I think it's over on 295, so it's kind of in the middle

(10:56):
of nowhere right now.
So sometimes as a municipalhistorian I feel more like a
mortician sort of picking over acorpse, because I mean, do
these places still have anidentity other than a sign on
the road?
I mean, people say they livethere.
What does it mean to live there?
I don't know if it really meansanything.

(11:17):
And if you go a little down alayer, maybe six feet under, and
you start to discover placesthat are no longer there, right,
a town that's no longer a town,to quote Robert Frost from his
poem Directive Rayville.
So Rayville's in Chatham.
It's north of Old Chatham, butI guess north of Old Chatham was
a little cumbersome, butRayville, and they have a sign

(11:39):
that says Rayville.
And then the first thing yousee, symbolically, is a cemetery
with a big monument that saysRay on it.
I assume that's where Ray'sburied and that's why Rayville's
called Rayville.
But if you take a right off thecounty road onto Ford Road
you'll see some great old housesand I don't really know why
Rayville exists.

(12:00):
But I think most people,especially if the signs weren't
there, if you said meet me inRayville, they'd have no idea.
But that's a good way to sortof see what people think is the
place Like.
When I give my talks about Ghentaround, you know, I always ask
anybody if they've ever been toGhent, right, and they all say
yeah, yeah, we've been to Ghent.

(12:21):
And I said if I said meet me inGhent, where would you meet me?
That's all I'm saying.
Right, and they all sayBartlett House or the Dairy
Queen, so right in there.
So that makes sense.
But if someone said meet me inChatham, I guess you'd go to the
village.
You'd have to be much morespecific.
But most people something comesto mind, right, but I think in
Chatham you have to be much morespecific because of all the

(12:43):
Chathams.
But there are a lot of placesthat are just gone, that no
longer, but they're resurfacingin the strangest of places.
I saw, you know, a weatheralert.
You know they like to breakinto the news and get everybody
scared of what weather is coming.
And you know this meteorologistin Albany you know, just
probing into the deep internetfor for names that the weather

(13:05):
program pulled out and there wasa weather alert for Brick
Tavern, pulver Station,buckleyville yeah, there's a
historical marker there.
Now Pulver Station, nothingleft.
Brick Tavern is where 9H and 66meet, but there they were.
There's the meteorologistcalling to all the people in
brick tavern, where there's noone except the dodge dealership

(13:28):
and the stewards, um to watchout for the weather.
Yeah well, if you're at thestewards, that'd be helpful.
I guess so, but you know theyneed to call it the brick tavern
stewards or something like that.
So somehow these things arere-emerging.

James Cave (13:40):
That's interesting internet so I'm looking at, you
know, I guess, the many Chathams, but what I'm really looking at
is this, this street, wherethere seems to be a lot of
change happening.
So I also wanted to ask youabout what you see, as a
historian, when it seems a townis going going into another wave
of change.
We, you know, we're mentioningtowns that seem to fall off the

(14:04):
map or general awareness of thepeople who live around them or
in them.
But what about a town thatseems to be changing in a
different direction?
What do you see there?

Gregg Berninger (14:12):
Well, I'm glad to hear you say another wave of
change and that's what ahistorian hopefully can do for a
community is to say you know,pardon the cliche, but the only
consistent in life is change,right.
And so you know, hopefully weall everybody listening here had
a halfway decent childhood, andwhenever that childhood was is

(14:33):
when things were the best andthat's how things should go back
to and that's how they forevershould be right.
So for people in Chatham around60 years old, it's when
Delson's was still on MainStreet, a store where they said
if you can't get it at Delson's,you don't need it, right, but
it was a department store.
You know the department store.

(14:54):
I'm sure someone saw adepartment store Delson's going
in whenever it went in.
It's just over the line intothe town of Chatham.
So I don't know the date.
Give me a break, james, come on.
So you know, at some pointsomeone said, well, wait a
minute, what about Jim and Janedown here who sell shoes?
And now Delson's going to sellshoes and they're going to sell

(15:16):
tools?
What about the?
You know.
So you know what happened tothe mom and pop store.
Now we've got this departmentstore right.
So I'm sure people thought thatwas bad.
And one of my favorite momentsto think about we got to head to
Ghent for a second is in the1830s, when the first, one of
the first trains lines inAmerica was coming through from

(15:37):
Hudson to the Berkshires to getstuff to the river and people
watching coming out of church onSunday morning on what is now
Cemetery Road in the 1830s andthey see the train line coming
through and what did they feelabout that change coming right,

(15:57):
is it the serpent coming intoour Eden or is it going to bring
money?
It probably said more about theinterpreter than than the
interpretation says more aboutthe interpreter than what the
actual feeling we should haveabout it.
And people probably had thesame feeling when the trains
left right, oh, that's terrible.
And we only have one train thatcomes through Chatham now and

(16:19):
it doesn't stop, when we used tohave 90 trains passing through
the village of Chatham.
So change and people need toremember that.
And my father told me a storyabout his Uncle, john, who was a
blacksmith in the late 1800sand he evolved and became one of
Gant's probably Gant's firstcar dealer, and my father would

(16:41):
always tell me that story andthen I slowly realized that his
point was you have to keep upwith the times if you want to
remain successful.
People who say, oh, the AI isgoing to ruin everything.
I don't know, maybe it will,but you got to get with it right
.
And I say to people I'm aretired college professor and

(17:02):
people, oh, ai is terrible andstudents are going gonna cheat.
I'm like don't be a horsedealer in 1910.
And you see the first car gothrough town and you're like
those things they're terrible.
Horses are better.
I'm just gonna stick withhorses.
Maybe horses are better, butthat guy's gonna be on the
street if he doesn't figure outhow to survive and change with
the times.

(17:22):
So that's what people need todo today.
Right, get with it.
Where's the money?
You know we used to have toship things to New York City to
get money shipped back up.
We were shipping wheat to NewYork City in the 18th century
and then it was hay, hay, hay,hay for the horses, then it was
milk.
Now people come up from thecity.

(17:43):
We don't have to ship anything.
They bring their money up hereand spend it.
How's that for a way to look atit?

James Cave (17:51):
I kind of love how some driver back there revved
the car's engine really loudlyas if on cue, right at the
perfect time when we weretalking about horses in that
interview.
I promise I didn't have them dothat for us, it just happened.
It was great.
Oh, so we heard historiansperspective on things.
That was Greg.
Let's go talk with Jeannie overat the antique store to get her

(18:14):
take on things.
After all, she grew up here andshe also has a job preserving
literal old things.
I'm sure she's got somethinginteresting to say.
Oh well, actually, actually, itlooks like we've got a train
here, so we're going to have towait for this train to pass
first.
We'll take a quick break.
We'll be right back.
Welcome back.

(18:42):
Okay, as promised, we'vearrived at the oldest building
in the village of Chatham.
It was once known as Grote'sTavern, also Stanwyck's Hall.
It's been called a few otherthings over the past more than
200 years now.
Well, it's the old 1811antiques today, and it's managed
by Jeannie Villette Bowerman,who also might be getting some
help from shopkeepers of thespectral realm.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (19:06):
Yeah, I mean like I, we have spirits
here and I wish Like ghosts.
Yes, Like real ghosts which Icould tell you about, but I wish
that I could talk to them, LikeI've never been able to have a
conversation with them.
But other people have.
Some of my customers have.

James Cave (19:25):
Like what kind of conversations are they having?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (19:27):
Oh, I can tell you a really fun one.
So there's a guy, a spirit.
Most of our spirits are fromthe 1800s.
There was a gentleman.
His name is Bob.
He came in one day and he did awhole reading of the building
and he is a local, he's born inHudson, He'd never been in this
building before and he wasn'tlike one of those, like you know

(19:48):
, charging me all this money tothis.
No, nothing like that.
He came in just to help me so Icould educate myself as to who
is in this building and he's agood, he's like a ghost reader,
a medium.
He, I've got to say this.
He's self-identified as a gypsySomebody.
People have told me that gypsyis not a correct term anymore,
but I asked him cause he calledhimself that and he's like yes,

(20:09):
I am a gypsy and that's what Iwant to be referred to.
How?

James Cave (20:12):
did you?
How did you find out about thisman?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (20:14):
Okay.
So Betsy Braley over at thebank knows everybody and see,
this is when you're a local, youjust go, you know who ask, like
I've got some spirits, I've gotsome stuff going on in the
store.
I want to find out more aboutthem.
And so Betsy said you need Bob.
And so she gave me his numberand I called him up and he came
up and as soon as he walked inthe door he had this warm,

(20:36):
unbelievable presence.
So I immediately feltcomfortable and he would like,
in like seconds, just startedtalking about the spirits.
He goes.
Well, there's Matthew who's here.
He's a very strong spirit.
He's the like the caretaker ofthe building, and he stands at
the top of the stairs andwatches everything that goes on

(20:56):
when customers are here.
He doesn't trust anybody.
He wants to make sure nobody'sstealing from you and I'm like
oh well, thank you, matthew,that's very nice.
He's like from and most of themare also from you know, they're
all immigrants.
This is the 1800s.
He was, I believe Matthew wasfrom the UK, is like in his
forties, died in the 1800s here,and I had a customer six months

(21:16):
before who told me he saw a manstanding at the top of the
stairs and I didn't tell theseother people about these other
things.
So there was a lot ofconfirmation of things over the
years, of different peoplesaying I see this, I see that, I
feel this, I feel that and it'ssomething that somebody else
already told me.
So that's kind of cool, so Ireally do believe in it.

(21:37):
Like we're sitting in thefireplace room right now, that
piece of furniture has a spiritattached to it what is this
piece of furniture?
it's a desk.
This is very ornate, likebeautiful desk, and I will.
Whoever has any interest inpurchasing this piece of
furniture.

James Cave (21:52):
I have to tell them that, because the spirit will go
with it like and so so you knowfor sure, the spirit is
attached to this, not the room,not the fireplace right, that's
the only piece of furniture inhere that has something attached
to it.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (22:06):
How can you tell?

James Cave (22:07):
I don't know, bob.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (22:08):
Bob told me.

James Cave (22:10):
So tell me about Chatham, because I'm looking at
the many Chathams but I'm hopingyou can help me understand the
different.
Are there differences?
Are there?
What is Chatham?
What are the Chathams like?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (22:21):
It is interesting that there are so
many, because when I was a kid,like we never really paid
attention to all the differentChathams, like if you lived in
Canaan like Canaan is outside ofChatham, but it was like you
lived in, you might as welllived in Alaska, like you know,
like it was, I don't know, itwas just Chatham, east Chatham,
old Chatham really kind of feltmore like the nucleus of Chatham

(22:45):
and Chatham Center, like that'swhere, like most of our friends
who were at school would beNorth Chatham felt like a whole
other, different world.
Like you were halfway to Albany,like it didn't feel I know it
is technically Chatham, but as akid our perspective, growing up
here, I don't think I knewanybody who lived in North

(23:05):
Chatham but I don't think weever really noticed like it.
To us it was like no big deal,like of course there's all these
Chathams.
I grew up here.
Well, technically I moved herewhen I was one, so I'm barely a
local, but I'm a local.
I loved living here and that'swhy I came back after going to

(23:25):
college to live here.

James Cave (23:26):
So when you tell people you're from Chatham, well
, do you tell people you're fromChatham?
Is that where you say identifyas being from?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (23:32):
Yes, I mean, I grew up in East
Chatham but I tell people fromChatham you know north of Hudson
, and then they're like oh,hudson, and then they'll know
what that is.
And then when Film Columbiacame to Chatham, I think Chatham
got more popular with morepeople.

James Cave (23:47):
So then, in terms of , like identifying as being from
Chatham, what?
What does that mean for youthis?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (23:53):
is all I know.

James Cave (23:54):
So this is all you know what?
What is it like to be?
I mean this idea of being fromthis place, being a local, being
seen as a local.
How do you identify with that?
Or how do you?
What's your boundary ofdetermination for who is and who
isn't a local?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (24:12):
I get the question of people will
come into the store all the timeand be like, oh, I've lived
here 18 years, when am I goingto be a local?
Like it's like a whole thing.
I think those are like twodifferent questions you're
asking.
One is like what my experiencewas like in Chatham as a kid and
what connects me to thiscommunity is people are very
grounded and we are very intouch with rural living.

(24:35):
Like I know, when I was a kidyou get up in the morning and it
would be like you know, summervacation, whatever Get out, like
literally get out of the house,get out.
And we were like tossed out orwe had to do our chores, like
weed the gardens, mow the lawn,like do all this stuff.
And we lived on an old farm andso there was always a million

(24:57):
chores to do but my parentsdidn't really want us back
inside.

James Cave (25:02):
So what kind of stuff would you do?
Where was your favorite placeto?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (25:03):
go.
We go into the streams.
We would.
You know I was very crafty we'dmake pet rocks.
We'd like to, you know we would.
Just, I don't even know what wedid, we just explored.
You know, we just run, just runaround and do stuff like kids
stuff.
We would build forts, we wouldjust anything that was outside.

(25:28):
You know, if it was a rainy day, that's probably when I would
paint my pet rocks.

James Cave (25:33):
Do you have any memories of walking up and down
Main Street Like what have youseen?
You're here on one end of it,right.

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (25:41):
Yeah, 1811 is on the circle, and when
I was a kid, we would hitchhiketo town.
We would ride our bikes intotown, so we would go a lot of
places without our parents.
I remember riding my bikeeverywhere and hitchhiking.
Hitchhiking was a thing Like itwas not a problem everywhere

(26:03):
and hitchhiking, hitchhiking wasa thing like it was not a
problem.
And chatham the main street inchatham, used to be full of
locals and bustling, you know,because this is where people
went to shop.
They didn't have targets andwalmarts and stuff like that.
We had delson's and delson'shad everything, and I'm sure
you've talked to people alreadyyeah, what was the Delsons
slogan?

(26:24):
if we don't have it, you don'tneed it or something you know.
I mean, which was true.
I mean they had everything fromwashing machines to to.
Anyone who was a kid who grewup here would go into Delsons,
run down the stairs and hang aleft, because that's where all
those little toys were, and andit was just.
I don't even imagine how manychildren fell down those stairs

(26:45):
trying to get there too fast.
And then we had like abarbershop and we had Miller's
drugstore and we had Patlin'sclothing.
I mean literally everything youwanted was right on main street
.
You didn't need to go to Hudson, you didn't need to go to East
Greenbush, you didn't need any,and everything was very, you
know, reasonably priced and andavailable.
I mean it was.

(27:06):
And the theater, the movietheater, I mean it was.
I remember I won my first dateto the movie theater.
You know it's.
So I'm looking forward to the,to the redesign of it, but I
also am curious.
It's not really redesigned.
They're they're refurbishing itback to its old glory, but that
it's not going to be the memorythat the locals had.

James Cave (27:27):
So I'm curious to see the reception why do you
think it will be different thanwhat you remember?

Jeanne Veillette Bower (27:34):
remember it be well, like like we,
everybody always remembers thered velvet curtain and the the
concession stand, like rightthere, like it's you, where the
ticket booth was.
A lot of that is changing andapparently the original curtain
was green, so they're bringingback the green curtain, but we
don't know that.
So I'm hoping they tell thecommunity oh, brace yourself, so

(27:58):
manage expectations.
It's going to be green.
You're not going to see the red, because it's those little
things and I'm going to juststep right into the mud.
It's those little things thatmake a lot of locals feel
displaced, because those are ourmemories that are being a lot
of people feel being taken awayand that's part of the little.

(28:23):
You know, butting heads betweenlocals and second homeowners.

James Cave (28:35):
It's you know this idea of preserving something but
then preserving what, like whatstage of the past is being
preserved, and trying tounderstand what that means to
the community and the people wholive here.
Like, what do you think aboutbecause you're here in an
antique shop?
You're obviously aboutpreserving the past and
preserving these artifacts ofdifferent eras and learning

(28:57):
about them, but, like, how doyou think about that when it
comes to this place where you'velived?

Jeanne Veillette Bowerman (29:01):
I think the challenge is that
there's a lot of generationallocals.
I think that's.
I think like I was trying toexplain to somebody back to your
question before like what makesa local there's.
There's certainly somebodywho's lived here for 18 years as
a local, like they, this istheir home, their full-time
domicile, but there's adifference between that local

(29:23):
and a generational local.
So somebody who's been here formany generations has a
different experience here.
They have different memorieshere.
They have different things thatthey want to preserve that the
person who's been here for 18years isn't aware of.
And so I think the struggle thecommunity is having and not
just our community lots of ruralcommunities where now that

(29:45):
people can work from home andpeople can, you know, they don't
have to be in the city they canbranch out.
Covid definitely changed thedemographics here and a lot of
other places across the country.
So what's happening is the,with the prices of the homes
going up and that makes up andjust real estate value makes it

(30:05):
less affordable.
But also there's something elsethat's happening that I think a
lot of second homeowners don'trealize, even though they live
in the city instead of voting inthe city, they register to vote
up here because they want tochange the vote and get you know
flip Congress or whatever I getit.
I understand you know I'm anindependent, so whatever I get

(30:27):
it.
But the other change that'shappening because of that that
they don't realize is that NewYork State now looks at the
Chatham School District and saysyou are rich, and so they do
not give us as much state aidfor our public school.
So what happens is school taxesgo up because the state's not

(30:51):
giving us much aid.
But also 40% of our studentswho go to our public school in
Chatham live below the povertylevel.
So those families are now beingharmed because their taxes are
going up.
Even if they rent, thelandlord's going to raise their
rent because the taxes are goingup.
And so this is where thegenerational local gets

(31:14):
frustrated, because then theirkids can't afford to live here
because the school taxes are toohigh.
And that's how their vote makesa difference in ways that I
don't think they intended tomake a difference.
I think if people understoodthat they might think twice
about doing it.
So it's harming our communityand then that ends up.

(31:34):
What happens?
The ripple effect of that isthose generational locals.
That next generation moves away.
So when you talk aboutpreserving history, preserving
the culture and the climate ofour town, it gets lost the more
people who understand and knowthe history of it leave and feel
like they're forced out in someways.

(31:55):
But there's also the other sideof it that people coming up
here who are of second homesbring a different culture, a
different outlook, a differentlife experience.
That can be very enriching topeople who grew up here.
So there's like pros and consand pluses and minuses and it's
I feel like with when COVIDhappened.

(32:15):
It was a jarring change thatleft a lot of locals feeling
like the town is gentrified andit's a little tough pill to
swallow for people to make thatadjustment and people want to
cling on to those memories.
You know their comfort.
It's just like comfort foodLike you love your mom's pot

(32:35):
roast.
It always makes you feelcomfortable.
When a local walks down MainStreet and doesn't recognize
anything anymore, they feel likewhere did my town go?
But there's some lovely newadditions to Main Street and
lovely new additions to thevillage.
But it's not.
It's change.
People don't like change,instinctively, you know.

James Cave (32:59):
I asked Greg what he thought, if he had any thoughts
about the point that Jeanniemade about taxes, and here's
what he said yeah, it seemspeople have some knowledge that
Chatham School District isclassified as a wealthy school
district so it gets less statemoney.

Gregg Berninger (33:14):
I don't really.
I don't know if anybodyunderstands school financing,
but I mean it makes sense, right, school financing.
But I mean it makes sense,right.
I mean why should we get asmuch state money as a half dead
town in central New York wherehalf the houses are about to be
torn down or decaying and thatsort of thing, when you have
people who come up from New YorkCity many of whom I know and

(33:36):
are friends of mine, and theyturn a $400,000 house into a
million dollar house?
A lot of them, their kids, goto private school, so they don't
take any, they take very fewresources from the community and
they pour lots of tax money in.
So why should we get the sameamount from Albany as a place
that doesn't have that?
I mean, do we want more andmore money?

(34:00):
Do we want the same amount as apoor district so we can have
more stuff than them?
Well, I don't think so.
So you know, if you want tocall me a liberal, feel free on
that one.
But I understand Jean's pointand I don't want to disagree
with her, but I think there's alot of.
I think there's a lot oftransference by local people who

(34:20):
sort of have this feeling of abygone era.
This sense of loss right, andyou know that's the sense of
loss is very powerful.
Our founding story in Westerncivilization is getting kicked
out of the Garden of Eden, right, and this sort of loss and
every kid has their Edenicmoment All right, we don't need
to go that.
I'm not the town historian ofthe Garden of Eden, but we have

(34:41):
this sense of loss, often as anadult, and people have that
about the way things used to bearound here and you look around
and you find some change to pinit on, right, so it's the new
people who ruined all of that.
But that's not true at all, youknow.
Drive west to some little townnear Utica or Syracuse, and you
will see what Chatham would belike if it didn't have people

(35:05):
moving up from the city withmoney, and it's not pretty.
It's empty storefronts and notonly collapsing barns, like we
have too many of around here,but collapsing houses.
And it's not good and that'syour choice, right that those
are the two choices having itexactly like it was in 1960 or
whenever somebody was a kid.
That's your choice, right?
Those are the two choicesHaving it exactly like it was in
1960 or whenever somebody was akid?
That's not one of the choices.

James Cave (35:29):
You know, there's actually somebody who's seen
this firsthand, thisdeterioration of a rural town.
His name's Pete Toigo and weheard from him at the beginning
of the episode.
I met Pete when I visited StonyKilco Coffee and Records on
Main Street Because, you know,after I call up the local
historian, I also like to stopby the local coffee shop to see
if there's anyone in therehanging around who's got

(35:50):
interesting stories to tell.
Yeah, and there always, alwaysis.

Pete Toigo (35:55):
Well, there's nothing permanent except change.
I didn't just make that up.
Somebody else said that in thepast.
As I told you, my family'shistory is my grandfather, who
was born in Italy.
He and his parents came andsettled a town in southern
Illinois called Benelde,illinois, which I also have a

(36:15):
long— still have cousins thereand I go there.
Um, and the coal mines closedlike 50 years ago, and it it's
not at the end of the ChicanicParkway and so, uh, instead of
having the beautiful restoredtrain station we have down here
in Chatham, where the trainstation in Bonneville, illinois,

(36:36):
where the town band played mygrandfather off when he first
went to the University ofChicago the first kid from the
town to get to go to collegethat's a vacant lot.
And instead of having theCrandall Theater here in Chatham
about to be restored, there wasa beautiful movie palace in
Bonneville, illinois.
That's a vacant lot.
And I could go on and on and on.
There was a beautiful dancehall on Route the original Route

(37:00):
66.
It's a vacant lot.
Where my grandfather's saloonwas?
It just burned down in the last10 years.
It's heartbreaking.
Where my grandfather's, the oldbank building is now a vacant
lot.
So I, just, I, just, I toomissed the Chatham of my youth.
I do.
I cry inside for it, but what agreat childhood.

(37:23):
You know, you don't evenrealize.
James Agee said that I was socarefully disguised to myself as
a child.
But when I was a kid I used tocome down here and my parents
had accounts at the shoe storeBrown Shoes at Banner Clothes at
Delson, had accounts at theshoe store brown shoes at banner
clothes at delson's at thehardware store.
So I would just be ordered, goget some sneakers.
And I'd walk in there and oldmr brown uh, jules brown, he

(37:47):
would lecture me about how I'druined another pair of sneakers
by taking them off withoutuntying them.
And I even at the time I waslike well, mr it's selling more
shoes for you, why are youlecturing me now?
But?
And I would just they time Iwas like, well, mr it's selling
more shoes for you, why are youlecturing me now?
But?
And I would, just they wouldput the shoes on my feet and I'd
walk out the door withoutpaying because my parents just
had.
It was just.

James Cave (38:06):
I've heard about these chairs, these chairs at
brown's.
Do you have any memories ofthese chairs?
I keep hearing them yeah, thechairs.

Pete Toigo (38:14):
You'd sit in those chairs and then they had the
thing that they put your foot onand then they had the thing
that they measured your foot.
Yeah, and the older peopleremember that there was an x-ray
machine where they wouldactually x-ray your shoes, but
they finally decided that thatwas maybe not the best idea.
And what the the the delson'sdepartment store, if, if we
don't have it, you you don'tneed it you could go in there

(38:36):
and if you broke your little oldrecord player needle, you go in
there and this the lady wouldtake out this little thing and
they'd find the right littleneedle for your old motorola
record player and then you couldbuy another beatles record and
go home and listen to it.
It was, it was sweet yeah,that's.

James Cave (38:54):
That's a different chatham than what we have now.
Right, so right, how, how doyou world?
How do you view it?
Like, can you describe whatwhat chatham is now like?
How do you see it?

Pete Toigo (39:03):
well, I understand some of the.
There's some anger andbitterness by some of my peers
who grew up here that it's notthe same place it is.
But the world's not the sameplace that it is and uh, it is,
it is.
There's the pressure on peoplewho want to live here to buy the
real estate.
Is is very, you know, the realestate is more expensive and uh,

(39:26):
so it's harder for people whogrew up here.
But there are people who aretrying to address that in
different ways.
In the town of chatham and thevillage of chatham there's still
a lot of us who live here, butit it it feels very different
and there's times when, ifyou've lived here all your life
and there's just all thesepeople, you don't know.
I mean, it can just it's ashame that there's sometimes

(39:47):
there's conflict and uh, are youfamiliar with the word city?
It?
indeed, indeed, I am so some ofthe some of the city it's have
taken that word and made ittheir own too.
Isn't there a city at podcastand stuff and there sure?

James Cave (40:04):
is now city.
It can you describe theportmanteau for anyone who might
not know what that means?

Pete Toigo (40:10):
well, and I guess it's the some of the people from
new york.
You York don't seem to be thatsensitive to certain aspects of
life.
I don't know, there's conflictand there can be bitterness, but
times change.
I'd rather have the buildingsbe vacant lots better to have

(40:32):
these different people who havemoney buying them and restoring
them.
But it is sometimes it'sheartbreaking just to walk and
there is no delson's and thereis no brown shoe store and there
is no banner clothes and thereis, you know, I could go on and
on and on.
It was, it was a sweet growingup in a small town, america, but

(40:52):
there every small town in thecountry has exhibited the same
changes, I'm sure because itwould have to, because it's just
the way the world is.
So there you go.
So there's a yin and a yang toit all and stuff yeah, no city
it would have that sort ofperspective.

James Cave (41:14):
Okay, there's one more place that I want to take
you.
It's up in Old Chatham on oneof the many dirt roads.
We're actually walking on adirt road now, I don't know if
you can hear.
It's very scenic here.
Right here is a horse.
The horse is also walking onthe same dirt road.
His name's Glenn hey Glenn, andwe're on our way to see Douglas

(41:36):
Welch, who, as it happens,lives in a really old house with
an interesting historicalfootnote.

Douglas Welch (41:40):
Oh yeah, this was the farm that kept the Stooges
out of World War I.
The mother had heard that whenthey lived down in Bensonhurst
and they were at the draft agethat if you were a farmer you
got a dispensation from thedraft.
And she said, boys, boys, we'regoing to be farmers.
And she took a satchel of cashwith her brothers and came up

(42:03):
here and they found this littlefarm for sale and she made damn
sure that they were photographedand documented as being farmers
and in fact we have a beautifulpicture of mo and shep on a
hayrick with the mother pictureof Moe and Shep on a hayrick
with the mother in our bathroom.

James Cave (42:19):
How long have you lived?

Douglas Welch (42:20):
here 25 years.
We bought this in.
We started looking really longand hard around 1998 and spent a
lot of time looking.
But I was a picky and I wantedeverything.
You know rural, dirt, road,backcountry outbuildings, a barn

(42:45):
and a historical house.
And while my taste runs moretoward Georgian symmetry, we
found a modest farmhouse, amodest farmhouse, and it's been.
You know, we feel like it.
We don't own it, it owns us.
I feel more like a steward ofthis place.

(43:06):
I mean, those are the originalwindows that people looked
through.
You know, 250 years ago it wasbuilt.
That part of the house wasbuilt in the 1770s and you know,
I just sort of feel like Ican't just put Pella windows in
that.
You know it leaks heat likecrazy in the winter, but I'm

(43:28):
just sorry, it's a historichouse.

James Cave (43:33):
I'm trapped.
Douglas is part of a groupknown as the Chatham Dirt Road
Coalition.
I'm trapped.
Douglas is part of a groupknown as the Chatham Dirt Road
Coalition and they're working tosave the town's more than 50
miles of dirt roads from thecompactors, road rollers and
asphalt pavers of the modern age.
And I thought, well, what couldbe a more poetic image of this
question of preservation thanlooking at the foundation, the

(43:53):
ground literally beneath ourfeet?
I mean, do we pave paradise inthe name of progress?
So here we are in a dirt road.
The dirt road is out in frontof your house.
What is it like to live righthere on this dirt road?
I remember in the New YorkTimes article they mentioned
your aged BMW.

Douglas Welch (44:09):
Oh yes, there it is in under the shed at 92.
And yeah, it's always coveredin dust in the summertime I
don't even bother washing it.
But it's a great pleasure totake the top down and go with
Chesley just exploring the backroads with an ice cream cone

(44:30):
that we get up here at 203.

James Cave (44:33):
How do you describe this, the reason that you need
to have a coalition?

Douglas Welch (44:38):
Well, okay, let me go to the beginning.
I was a member of this Facebookpage called Dirt Roads of
Chatham and the Surrounding Area.
It was maintained by a ladynamed Heather Ular over on
Thomas Road.
She's a horsewoman and she'sbeen collecting.

(44:58):
People send in photographs ofbeautiful scenic dirt roads
around the Chatham area througha horse's ears or from a baby
pram or from a bicycle, and it'sthrough all the seasons of the
year, and there are all these.
It's just a scrapbook ofgorgeous back road photography.

(45:19):
And one day about 2020, therewas a post by someone saying
that, oh my god, they have pavedBeale Road Now.
Beale Road was a reallybeautiful, picturesque back road
, just about a mile or two fromhere, and there was a lot of
hand-wringing in this littleFacebook community about oh my

(45:43):
God, what are we going to do?
What road is next?
Is this some new kind of trend?
And I, because I had just donea pro bono campaign for the fire
department and got very closeto the local outdoor advertising
company.

James Cave (46:01):
You come from advertising.

Douglas Welch (46:02):
Yes, I do.
I was a creative director atMcCann for 25 years, so, anyway,
when I retired, I got tapped tohelp out and do a pro bono
recruitment campaign for thefire department, and it was very
successful.
But I also realized howpowerful the outdoor media was
medium of, you know, billboardswas for this community.

(46:23):
And so I stupidly raised myhand in this Facebook chat room
and said hey, you know, maybe weneed to get out of our bubble
and do something to motivate thewhole town and make the the you
know, everybody aware of howprecious these dirt roads are
and how vital they are to ourrural character, because they

(46:46):
are a big part of it.
And out of that was born theChatham Dirt Road Coalition.
It's a handful of people whocared very much, but they were
from different parts of thecommunity.
Some of them were just walkers,some were bike riders and some
were equestrians.
So it was, you know, it trulyis a coalition of different

(47:11):
people who use the roads indifferent ways.
Anyway, our thinking was if wecan sort of promote the dirt
roads as a recreational venuefor everyone, not just the
people who live on the dirtroads, but invite the whole town
to come out and use them forhealthy recreation, from like,

(47:32):
as I described, biking, walking,just getting fresh air and
having a contemplative countrywalk.
We thought that would helpjustify the expense to maintain
these roads, because it isn'tcheap.

James Cave (47:47):
Yeah, the fear is that you do need to justify it.
I mean reading about it.
The Howard superintendent'stalking about how expensive it
is to maintain.
Looking at Hillsdale, there'ssomething else going on there
about trying to maintain TexasHill Road.
So how do you guys manage that?

Douglas Welch (48:02):
Well, we've done it mainly through PR and getting
the word out to people.
This is interesting.
When we put up a billboard andit was a beautiful photograph of
Pitt Hall Road in the lateafternoon sun it was just a
gorgeous picture of a roadwinding into the distance and

(48:24):
over it we said let's preserveour dirt roads, a rural heritage
worth preserving.
And it just happened that thatcame out at the very time when
the town was going through acomprehensive survey.
Happened that that came out atthe very time when the town was
going through a comprehensivesurvey and one of the key
questions in that was about ourrural character and an explicit
question how do you feel aboutour dirt roads?

(48:46):
And I think it was like 65 to68 percent somewhere in that
area responded by all means,maintain and keep them.
So we maybe the timing of thatbillboard had some influence on
the reaction we got, but wecertainly put the dirt roads
front and center in people'sminds at a very key moment.

(49:08):
You think advertising hadsomething to do with it.
I do, yes, I do.
I think it was very fortuitoustiming.
Now there were people who calledus scaremongers and said, oh,
there's no plans to pave.
But our feeling was you don'twait until the paver is at the

(49:28):
end of the road to let peopleknow that you care about keeping
them.
You know, if we don't raise ourvoices and say there are a lot
of people who love these dirtroads, you know, the town could,
no one could blame them forthinking everybody wants to pave
right.
I mean, you would assume that'sprogress and these back roads

(49:49):
here are just because we haven'tgotten to it yet.
But that's.
We don't see it that way.

James Cave (49:56):
One of the things that's interesting to me is this
idea of progress and what topreserve.
And as we were walking downthis dirt road, we walked past a
pasture of grazing cows, but tosee the cows we looked past the
tennis court to see them.

Douglas Welch (50:10):
That is a perfect that encapsulates, that is a
perfect image.
Yes, you're looking at gorgeousgrazing cows over a brand new
tennis.
Well, it's not brand new, it'sbeen there for a long time, but
anyway it's yeah, the tennis andthe gut house and they get
along fine.
That's the message.

(50:30):
Yes, we are truly blessed inthis area in the whole capital
region.
This is one of the lastremaining places.
My feeling about these roadsand people say you know, can't
we just do another one?
Can't we do another one?
Our feeling is the whole damncountry is virtually paved.
Can't we just keep just theselittle 50 miles we have here?

(50:54):
Is that too much to ask?
You know there's look at thatview right there.
Describe it.

James Cave (51:02):
What do you see when you see this?

Douglas Welch (51:03):
Well, first of all, I see just nature.
I don't, I don't feel theautomobile, I feel just like
that's a footpath and that roadprobably was just a cow path
between farms years ago, so it'sgot just this natural bend long
before the bulldozer could makea straight line.
And to me it's just a bucolic.

James Cave (51:23):
It's like early evening the sun is sort of
setting.
Yeah.

Douglas Welch (51:26):
My favorite word crepuscular light.
It's, uh, it's.
To me it's.
That's peace when I look atthat and you'll notice no
traffic, no roads, just humanswalking along, and I guarantee
some deer and some turkey aregoing to be running across in
front of us in just a minute.
So it's as Verlin Klinkenborgpointed out.

(51:50):
He says it's interesting thatyou don't see any roadkill on
dirt roads Kind of tells yousomething.
They're really.
They're really.
You feel like you've enterednature.
When you pull off a highwayonto a dirt road, it gets
intimate.
You know even you're makingyour footsteps are even loud.
You know you can't creep up onanything.

James Cave (52:11):
The Chatham Dirt Road Coalition publishes a
brochure with a hand-drawn mapof the surviving dirt roads
around Chatham.
You can find it around ColumbiaCounty.
There's also an essay by thewriter Verlin Klinkenborg, an
American nonfiction author andacademic who's renowned for his
writing about rural life andlandscapes.
I asked Douglas if he'd like toread it out loud for us.

Douglas Welch (52:32):
Yeah, I'll be happy to.
Unlike a highway, a freeway, athruway or a parkway, a dirt
road is a living thing.
It's always changing season byseason, sometimes day by day.
In the dry heat of summer it'sfirm and dusty, in mud season it
sags, like all of us.
A dirt road is nominally meantfor cars, of course, but it

(52:55):
doesn't belong to them, unlikehighways, freeways, thruways and
parkways.
It permits them, course, but itdoesn't belong to them, unlike
highways, freeways through waysand parkways.
It permits them, but it doesn'tinvite them.
It invites instead walkers andrunners, deer and turkeys,
squirrels and chipmunks, even awoodcock if you look closely at
the right time of year.
A dirt road is constantlyintersecting with animal life,
and yet nearly all the roadkillwe ever see is on paved roads.

(53:17):
That alone should tell yousomething.
It's hard for road crews andhighway superintendents and
county budget offices to love adirt road.
They take some work.
It takes some work to continueto connect to the past when
carts and carriages and horsesuse these roads Some still do.
It takes some work to maintaina road where leaves can gather

(53:41):
in the fall instead of beingwhisked away by a draft of a
fast passing car.
Slowly but surely, the world isbeing paved over and someday,
one day, out of necessity, theunpaving will begin.
Thanks to our dirt roads herein Chatham, we're way ahead.

James Cave (54:03):
You have a career in advertising.
Do you have anything to add tothat?

Douglas Welch (54:06):
I couldn't say anything better than what Verlin
just said with that.

James Cave (54:11):
You know, all this talk about the past has me
thinking about the passage oftime.
And wouldn't you know it?
Chatham actually has a reallyold clock from the olden days.
It was built in 1872.
And the pendulum clock insidestill the original has been
measuring the time for the past153 years, meticulously

(54:32):
maintained by a man named StevenPiazza, and he took me up into
the clock tower for a rare visitas he went about one of his
twice-weekly windings.
I've got this segment forpaying subscribers, so you're
comfortable climbing.
You've got one hand now becauseyou've got that thing in your
hand the jiffy.
This is one of the perks ofbeing a paying supporter of the
podcast.
You get to go up into old,historic clock towers where

(54:55):
nobody else really gets to go.
So come around there I've got alink to join in my bio and it
really does help support thistype of storytelling that I do.
Well, that is it for thisepisode of the Jiffy.
I'll be back in a few weekswith another trip through the
Hudson Valley, maybe anothertrip through time.
Thanks for spending your timewith me going all the way to the
end of this one.
It was a long one.
Until then, I guess I'll seeyou over on the Instagram feed.

(55:17):
Let's see what time it is.

Douglas Welch (55:20):
It's 8.30.
We can ring the bell at 8.30,right?
So this is just a hammer that'sgoing, so I'm gonna do the.

Melissa Davis (55:29):
Ready yeah.

James Cave (55:32):
That's pretty cool.
So people will, people willlook up and go wait a minute.
That was just Steven saying hi.

Pete Toigo (55:44):
Yeah.