February 22, 2025 • 18 mins
On today's episode, I’m making a house call to one of the oldest – and most mysterious – homes in the Hudson Valley. The Van Housen-Marriott House on Route 66 has stood for centuries, witnessing the full weight of American history. It was a site of Dutch colonial settlement, a place of enslavement, and, possibly, a stop on the Underground Railroad. But now, this house is falling apart, and efforts to save it are racing against time.
As part of a project with the African American Archive of Columbia County, I speak with Ed Klingler, Brenda Shufelt, Lisa Fludd-Smith, and historian Fergus Bordewich to unpack the house’s past and explore what it truly means to preserve history.
Could this weathered Dutch home have once sheltered freedom seekers? And what does it take to save a piece of history before it disappears? It's all here on this very historic podcast episode.
To learn more about the African American Archive of Columbia County, visit: https://www.afamarchivecc.org
To find the Cozy Map Of Comfy Places, visit: https://thejiffy.xyz/are-you-looking-for-the-cozy-map-of-comfy-places
"The Jiffy Audio Newsletter Podcast" is an audio documentary zine – the official podcast of The Jiffy – exploring the odd histories, cozy mysteries, and surprising characters of upstate New York. Each episode is a small adventure, told with curiosity, humor, and the occasional text message from a stranger.
New episodes drop every other week. Subscribe, share, and take the scenic route with us.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
UNKNOWN (00:00):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (00:03):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Jiffy
Audio Newsletter Podcast, apodcast about upstate New York
that really takes you places.
I don't know if you caught thatat the beginning, but we started
off with a different openingsong.
That was our special episodesong because we have a special
episode for you today.
In addition to writing all of my150-something blurbs from my
cozy map of comfy places, whichis out now at thejiffy.xyz, you
(00:28):
can check it out.
I've also been working on aproject with the African
American Archive of ColumbiaCounty and endangered House of
History.
Let me set the scene.
There is a house on Route 66here in Klaverick, near the
Hudson City limits.
(00:49):
Right now, it's behind achain-link fence right on a
perch overlooking a trailer homepark called Dutch Village.
This is known as the Van HoesenHouse, and it's one of the
oldest surviving examples ofDutch colonial architecture in
the United States.
They say it was built around the1720s or so, and it's got all
the telltale signs of Dutchhouses.
H-shaped frame, steeply pitchedroof, bricks, a chimney on both
(01:12):
sides, sides.
And it's right on the floodplainnear Claverick Creek.
And we all know the Dutch lovetheir access to water.
And speaking of water, the VonHusens also owned land right on
the Hudson River at ClaverickLanding that they sold to some
newcomers in the 1700s, a groupof whaling families from New
England known as theProprietors.
Then they moved in and gaveHudson its current name.
(01:33):
And we're going to look into allthat history in an upcoming
episode.
So stay tuned for that.
But back to this house.
The house is connected to allthis history, right?
There's There's all of the Dutchhistory.
But there's also a good chancethat it's an even rarer example
of a house that was not just asite of enslavement, because the
Dutch of early America werecertainly enslavers.
(01:54):
But as you'll soon hear, itcould be a site of abolitionism
as well, because there's goodreason to think the Van Heusen
House, or as we're now callingit, the Van Heusen Marriott
House, is also a stop on theUnderground Railroad.
And if that proves to be true,then this would be a house
that's really rare.
It represents so much of U.S.
history, the Dutch colonialismencroachment on indigenous
(02:16):
lands, the persistence of Dutchculture under British rule, the
beginnings of capitalism hereand its dependence on the system
of enslavement, not just in theU.S., but specifically in the
Hudson Valley, which I'velearned was the epicenter of
enslavement in New York, if youcan believe it.
But we think it is also a housethat became a shelter for
freedom seekers along theUnderground Railroad.
Isn't that something?
(02:37):
A dual site.
The house is falling apart.
It's been in need of rescue fordecades.
It was named by the PreservationLeague of New York State as one
of the seven places to save backin 2009.
And for the past 20 years or so,it's been mainly under the care
of a solitary man, a carpenternamed Ed Klingler.
(02:57):
He's volunteered his time anddevoted nearly every weekend for
years to fixing this house upand keeping it standing.
Ed is one of the many peopleI've interviewed for this
project with the AfricanAmerican Archive of Columbia
County, which is unearthing somereally fascinating history about
the Hudson Valley.
We'll hear more from them in amoment, but first I wanted to
share some of my interview withEd.
Recently, he took me on a tourof the house and talked with me
(03:20):
about its history.
Ed, hey, thanks for having me.
What are we looking at here?
SPEAKER_02 (03:25):
It actually would be nice to start in the hall if we
can.
Let's do it.
All right.
Well, today our tour will begininside the house.
Unlike most tours that those whohave come have seen, an
exterior, but I think it mightbe nice to actually start in the
center hall of the house, whichin and of itself is a unique
(03:45):
feature for a Dutch house ofthis age.
Most of the houses that werebuilt during that second quarter
were still based on an earlier,what they call a two-room plan,
much like the Lucas and Allenhouse, the Kinderhook, where you
basically have two rooms, eachwith an outside door and a
window in the facade.
(04:05):
This house actually has a ratherlarge center hall, which is a
Georgian feature.
I think it's indicative of,again, having a grandson's house
of a fairly well-off patentee.
Enabled them to do that.
Maybe...
One of the first examples of anew style coming in, but it's my
understanding.
(04:25):
Okay, let
SPEAKER_04 (04:26):
me describe what we're looking at.
It's about 10 o'clock on abright November morning and the
south-facing windows fill theroom in this full golden light.
You can see dust particlesfloating through the air.
The wallpaper is peeling away,revealing plaster in some areas
or bare brick in others.
The original creaky wide woodenfloorboards are still there and
(04:48):
original doors with unique Dutchhinges too.
But there's light blue paint onthe ceiling from the federal
era.
This lead paint is flaking off,and these flakes are scattered
all around on a rose-patternedsewn carpet that was installed
sometime in the 1900s.
All these changes to theoriginal house, all these layers
on layers that represent thegenerations of people who've
(05:08):
lived here over time, well,that's what Ed's been working to
preserve.
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
Now, for this room, you can look at a 1900s carpet
and arts and crafts paperhanging on the wall, but at the
same time, you've got SomeVictorian wainscot in here.
You've got a federal periodmantle.
Still have original baseboards,though.
And that's pretty much the storyof this house.
Every room you enter, there'salways something different.
(05:36):
You walk around the outside, yousee evidence of the original
house.
You see subtle changes.
You see bits and pieces reused.
And...
So often you lose that, both ineither restorations or just the
house being remodeled year afteryear.
And that's never happened here.
SPEAKER_04 (05:56):
Okay, now I want to bring in Brenda Schufelt.
You know, we met her earlierhere on the podcast, briefly in
the episode on landacknowledgement statements.
That's because Brenda is thehistory room coordinator at the
Hudson Area Library.
The history room is a greatplace to find a lot of secrets
about this area.
And there's a group of citizenresearchers who hang out there
and sift through papers andrecords and make all sorts of
(06:18):
discoveries.
One of them, Joe D'Onofrio,found an interesting connection
between the Von Hosen house anda man named Charles Mary I
SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
learned about the Marriott connection from one of
our History Room researchers,Joe D'Onofrio, who was very
interested in the UndergroundRailroad in this area.
And we're always hearing, oh,there's a cabinet inside the
pantry, so we must have been astop on the Underground
(06:47):
Railroad.
There's a cave in the riverfrontwhere, you know, in the cliff
where people, probably a tunnel.
You know, there's all kinds ofthings like that.
And for the most part, we couldsay it's definitely not true.
And it just doesn't make sensefor this particular area.
But then to think about whatdoes make sense.
(07:09):
So in terms of the Van Heusenhouse, we do know that Charles
Marriott lived there with hissister.
I think her name was MargaretMarriott, if I'm not mistaken.
And I believe he died there.
She owned the home.
He lived there for severalyears.
He's very connected with theRokabi farm where a lot of
(07:30):
runaways came as they were onthe Underground Railroad.
And he was a big abolitionist.
And you can see that in theobituaries about him.
He was very public about it,which a lot of people were not.
And they mention it in theobituaries as one of the main
things about him and his life.
(07:50):
So...
If he lived there during thetime of slavery, it's only
natural to think that that couldhave had something to do with
the Underground Railroad.
SPEAKER_03 (08:04):
The Marriott House.
I'm going to call it theMarriott House because
Marriott's my man, so to speak.
And it's his history that led meto finding the house and helping
to put together the UndergroundRoute.
Oh, that's
SPEAKER_04 (08:20):
Fergus Mordewig there.
He's a historian and author ofmany books of U.S.
history, but specifically forthis episode, he wrote a book
titled Bound for Canaan, theEpic Story of the Underground
Railroad, what Fergus callsAmerica's first civil rights
movement.
In the preface to the paperbackedition, He writes, the response
to the hardcover edition hasbeen enthusiastic, in part no
(08:41):
doubt reflecting the simple factthat it is the first national
history of the UndergroundRailroad to be published in more
than a century.
Isn't that something?
Bound for Canaan was publishedin 2005, and in it, Fergus
quotes from letters written byCharles Marriott to Isaac
Hopper, who Fergus describes asthe father of the Underground
Railroad.
Here's what Fergus wrote aboutMarriott in his book.
(09:03):
In November 1838, CharlesMarriott, a gentleman farmer and
close friend of Isaac Hopper,wrote matter-of-factly from his
home near the small city ofHudson to their mutual friend,
Roland T.
Robinson, in Vermont.
The letter reads, Many fugitivesfrom the South effect their
escape.
Three passed through my handslast week.
Now, my question is, wasMarriott writing about this very
(09:25):
von Hosen Marriott house thatwe've been talking about all
episode long?
And more broadly, why?
Who was Charles Marriott, aQuaker abolitionist, gentleman
farmer, and operator on theUnderground Railroad?
SPEAKER_03 (09:38):
Okay, I think we're still waiting for a good
biography of Charles Marriott,who deserves much more
attention, I think.
He's a tantalizing figure.
His real home is New York City.
He's a Quaker.
And he is connected in New YorkCity with radical Quakers, most
notably Isaac Tatum Hopper.
(10:01):
who was a Quaker originally fromPhiladelphia and who was the key
figure.
I've sometimes referred to himas the father of the Underground
Railroad.
I wouldn't cast that label inconcrete, but he is the earliest
individual I was able to findwho was actively involved in
organizing the Underground as weknow it to have been.
(10:24):
He systematically worked outroutes, safe houses, disguises,
He was one bold Quaker.
So Marriott is involved fromearly on with Hopper and certain
other men in the city.
Marriott has property up inClaverack, Hudson area.
He has orchards, especially whensteamboats are plying the river.
(10:49):
There was a very, veryprofitable business in shipping
fruit, especially apples.
Still is, actually, down to NewYork City.
So this is what Marriott'sengaged in.
And he has several propertiesnear Hudson, New York.
And it's impossible to say atthis point how early Marriott
(11:10):
began personally assistingfugitive slaves.
Undoubtedly, he was involved init in New York City with
collaborating with Hopper andothers, other Quakers, in seeing
that freedom seekers weredispatched up the Hudson River.
I'm pretty sure on steamboats.
by that time.
I can't prove it.
It's a surmise.
(11:32):
But the House embodies theentire history of slavery and
anti-slavery in the UnitedStates.
It's embedded in that property.
It's embedded in the bricks,even, so to speak, and in the
earth that surrounds it.
Yes, there were people enslavedthere.
New York was a slave state.
New York was a slave state.
(11:52):
The Hudson Valley was anepicenter of slavery in New York
State.
And the Hudson Valley, somefarmers in the Hudson Valley
clung to slavery longer thanalmost any other New Yorkers
SPEAKER_04 (12:04):
in the early 19th century.
Slavery in the Hudson Valley.
Well, that brings us to the workof the African-American Archive
of Columbia County.
The archive was founded in2020-2021 when Lisa Flood Smith
began looking into her familytree with her husband, Pete.
They were surprised to find howconnected Black families,
descendants of the enslaved, areto the history of New York.
(12:25):
And also that so many of thesedescendants still use the
surnames of the families thatenslaved them.
Black people who didn't comefrom the Netherlands with names
such as Von Ness and Von Buren.
Here's Lisa.
SPEAKER_01 (12:38):
We started out as a genealogical organization
because we were looking into ourown family history.
And we kept finding all of thesereally interesting facts and
people in the genealogy.
we realized that enslavement inColumbia County was much more
vast than we ever thought itwas.
So we started the organizationto be able to record that and
(13:00):
help other people find their ownancestors from Columbia County,
from the enslaved population.
Kinderhook itself, and you haveto remember that what we're
talking about is not the currenttown of Kinderhook.
It is really the area that isalmost the entire east side of
Columbia County.
It at that point was the areapretty much between
Rensselaerswijk and LivingstonManor.
(13:22):
So it was a much larger area.
And it is unique in the factthat we know that it had a very
large population of enslavedpeople.
We know that some of the homesare still existing.
We know that there is moreresearch to be done to put those
people in those houses to figureout who was where.
And that's one of the reasonsthat we really want to engage
(13:46):
more with the community becauseit's important to be able to
have a record, to be able toshare with people exactly this
is what the history was.
SPEAKER_00 (13:57):
I think the Van Hoosenhuis is incredibly
important to our area, but alsoto our country.
Architecturally, it representssomething that's very unique in
Dutch architecture at the time.
Historically, Jan van Hoosen,Jan Frans van Hoosen, he was one
(14:18):
of the first landowners.
He purchased the land from theMohican people and was a very
important person in thebeginning of that history, of
Dutch history in our area.
Also, the fact that CharlesMarriott lived in that house
with his sister is incrediblyimportant.
He's one of the bigabolitionists abolitionists in
our nation nationally.
(14:40):
So for him to have resided therewhile he was an active
abolitionist and associated withthe Rochaby farm is incredible.
SPEAKER_03 (14:48):
One of my goals with the book was to take the
Underground Railroad out of therealm of myth and legend and
show that it had a history.
It was knowable.
There was a great deal ofinformation available, which had
simply been neglected forgenerations.
Now, why was that?
Well, basically, the UndergroundRailroad was part of
(15:09):
abolitionist history, obviously,and also of black
African-American history,obviously.
And both those spheres ofAmerican history were pretty
much airbrushed out of thenational story, beginning with
the end of Reconstruction andthrough the long, long, long
dark night of Jim Crow.
SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
The Van Hozen Marriott House is a really
unique home.
There are not many buildingsleft from that era because a lot
were built out of wood and theyhave gone away.
But this house has stood for allof this time.
So it has the history from the1700s when it was built.
Also, it has the history ofbeing a space of enslavement.
(15:52):
We also have the added layer ofit being a house that was a
location on the UndergroundRailroad.
It is probably the only housestill existing that is so
important to so many differentaspects of history.
And it really needs to be saved.
SPEAKER_04 (16:15):
It is a house of contradiction.
It's so interesting to mebecause this house represents so
much of what the United Stateshas always been.
Contradictory, complicated.
Fergus Bordewijk told me thathistory is a story full of
contradictions.
People are contradictory.
SPEAKER_03 (16:31):
People who participated in the Underground
Railroad often were full ofcontradictions themselves.
And I think more broadly it fitsinto this idea of American
exceptionalism that we haveoften been wedded to and many
(16:52):
people in our political realmwant to celebrate, even though
the truth defies that.
So it fits into the way we wantto think about our past.
That's to make a romance at theUnderground Railroad.
And my own view is we don't needto do that anymore.
We are grown up as a country.
(17:14):
We don't need these fictions.
They don't serve us very well.
The truth will serve us better.
The truth is more complicated.
It's not always pretty.
Our history is not absent ofheroism.
It's not absent of overcomingtremendous challenges.
Those things are there, too.
(17:34):
But we shouldn't be afraid ofseeing the other side of things.
And underneath the romance ofthe Underground Railroad is this
story of slavery.
SPEAKER_04 (17:45):
That's why I think it's important to preserve this
house, this site.
And we're using this project toraise awareness of this house's
history and kick off afundraising initiative.
And we'll host both Ed Klinglerand Fergus Bordewijk in person
at a discussion in March.
It'll be at the Hudson AreaLibrary on March 9th.
And we'll screen the shortdocumentary that I've been
(18:07):
working on here, for which theseinterviews were recorded.
I hope you can make it.
You can find more informationabout this event at
hudsonarealibrary.org.
I'll also have a link to this inthe show notes of this episode.
Well, that's it for this episodeof the Jiffy Audio Newsletter
Podcast.
If you liked it, I hope you'llsubscribe, share it with a
(18:28):
friend, write a review even.
I'm just glad you made it allthe way to the end of the
episode.
Of course, there's more Jiffy atthejiffy.xyz and the Instagram
feed.
You can always find me at JamesCave on Instagram.
Thanks for listening.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (00:03):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Jiffy
Audio Newsletter Podcast, apodcast about upstate New York
that really takes you places.
I don't know if you caught thatat the beginning, but we started
off with a different openingsong.
That was our special episodesong because we have a special
episode for you today.
In addition to writing all of my150-something blurbs from my
cozy map of comfy places, whichis out now at thejiffy.xyz, you
(00:28):
can check it out.
I've also been working on aproject with the African
American Archive of ColumbiaCounty and endangered House of
History.
Let me set the scene.
There is a house on Route 66here in Klaverick, near the
Hudson City limits.
(00:49):
Right now, it's behind achain-link fence right on a
perch overlooking a trailer homepark called Dutch Village.
This is known as the Van HoesenHouse, and it's one of the
oldest surviving examples ofDutch colonial architecture in
the United States.
They say it was built around the1720s or so, and it's got all
the telltale signs of Dutchhouses.
H-shaped frame, steeply pitchedroof, bricks, a chimney on both
(01:12):
sides, sides.
And it's right on the floodplainnear Claverick Creek.
And we all know the Dutch lovetheir access to water.
And speaking of water, the VonHusens also owned land right on
the Hudson River at ClaverickLanding that they sold to some
newcomers in the 1700s, a groupof whaling families from New
England known as theProprietors.
Then they moved in and gaveHudson its current name.
(01:33):
And we're going to look into allthat history in an upcoming
episode.
So stay tuned for that.
But back to this house.
The house is connected to allthis history, right?
There's There's all of the Dutchhistory.
But there's also a good chancethat it's an even rarer example
of a house that was not just asite of enslavement, because the
Dutch of early America werecertainly enslavers.
(01:54):
But as you'll soon hear, itcould be a site of abolitionism
as well, because there's goodreason to think the Van Heusen
House, or as we're now callingit, the Van Heusen Marriott
House, is also a stop on theUnderground Railroad.
And if that proves to be true,then this would be a house
that's really rare.
It represents so much of U.S.
history, the Dutch colonialismencroachment on indigenous
(02:16):
lands, the persistence of Dutchculture under British rule, the
beginnings of capitalism hereand its dependence on the system
of enslavement, not just in theU.S., but specifically in the
Hudson Valley, which I'velearned was the epicenter of
enslavement in New York, if youcan believe it.
But we think it is also a housethat became a shelter for
freedom seekers along theUnderground Railroad.
Isn't that something?
(02:37):
A dual site.
The house is falling apart.
It's been in need of rescue fordecades.
It was named by the PreservationLeague of New York State as one
of the seven places to save backin 2009.
And for the past 20 years or so,it's been mainly under the care
of a solitary man, a carpenternamed Ed Klingler.
(02:57):
He's volunteered his time anddevoted nearly every weekend for
years to fixing this house upand keeping it standing.
Ed is one of the many peopleI've interviewed for this
project with the AfricanAmerican Archive of Columbia
County, which is unearthing somereally fascinating history about
the Hudson Valley.
We'll hear more from them in amoment, but first I wanted to
share some of my interview withEd.
Recently, he took me on a tourof the house and talked with me
(03:20):
about its history.
Ed, hey, thanks for having me.
What are we looking at here?
SPEAKER_02 (03:25):
It actually would be nice to start in the hall if we
can.
Let's do it.
All right.
Well, today our tour will begininside the house.
Unlike most tours that those whohave come have seen, an
exterior, but I think it mightbe nice to actually start in the
center hall of the house, whichin and of itself is a unique
(03:45):
feature for a Dutch house ofthis age.
Most of the houses that werebuilt during that second quarter
were still based on an earlier,what they call a two-room plan,
much like the Lucas and Allenhouse, the Kinderhook, where you
basically have two rooms, eachwith an outside door and a
window in the facade.
(04:05):
This house actually has a ratherlarge center hall, which is a
Georgian feature.
I think it's indicative of,again, having a grandson's house
of a fairly well-off patentee.
Enabled them to do that.
Maybe...
One of the first examples of anew style coming in, but it's my
understanding.
(04:25):
Okay, let
SPEAKER_04 (04:26):
me describe what we're looking at.
It's about 10 o'clock on abright November morning and the
south-facing windows fill theroom in this full golden light.
You can see dust particlesfloating through the air.
The wallpaper is peeling away,revealing plaster in some areas
or bare brick in others.
The original creaky wide woodenfloorboards are still there and
(04:48):
original doors with unique Dutchhinges too.
But there's light blue paint onthe ceiling from the federal
era.
This lead paint is flaking off,and these flakes are scattered
all around on a rose-patternedsewn carpet that was installed
sometime in the 1900s.
All these changes to theoriginal house, all these layers
on layers that represent thegenerations of people who've
(05:08):
lived here over time, well,that's what Ed's been working to
preserve.
SPEAKER_02 (05:12):
Now, for this room, you can look at a 1900s carpet
and arts and crafts paperhanging on the wall, but at the
same time, you've got SomeVictorian wainscot in here.
You've got a federal periodmantle.
Still have original baseboards,though.
And that's pretty much the storyof this house.
Every room you enter, there'salways something different.
(05:36):
You walk around the outside, yousee evidence of the original
house.
You see subtle changes.
You see bits and pieces reused.
And...
So often you lose that, both ineither restorations or just the
house being remodeled year afteryear.
And that's never happened here.
SPEAKER_04 (05:56):
Okay, now I want to bring in Brenda Schufelt.
You know, we met her earlierhere on the podcast, briefly in
the episode on landacknowledgement statements.
That's because Brenda is thehistory room coordinator at the
Hudson Area Library.
The history room is a greatplace to find a lot of secrets
about this area.
And there's a group of citizenresearchers who hang out there
and sift through papers andrecords and make all sorts of
(06:18):
discoveries.
One of them, Joe D'Onofrio,found an interesting connection
between the Von Hosen house anda man named Charles Mary I
SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
learned about the Marriott connection from one of
our History Room researchers,Joe D'Onofrio, who was very
interested in the UndergroundRailroad in this area.
And we're always hearing, oh,there's a cabinet inside the
pantry, so we must have been astop on the Underground
(06:47):
Railroad.
There's a cave in the riverfrontwhere, you know, in the cliff
where people, probably a tunnel.
You know, there's all kinds ofthings like that.
And for the most part, we couldsay it's definitely not true.
And it just doesn't make sensefor this particular area.
But then to think about whatdoes make sense.
(07:09):
So in terms of the Van Heusenhouse, we do know that Charles
Marriott lived there with hissister.
I think her name was MargaretMarriott, if I'm not mistaken.
And I believe he died there.
She owned the home.
He lived there for severalyears.
He's very connected with theRokabi farm where a lot of
(07:30):
runaways came as they were onthe Underground Railroad.
And he was a big abolitionist.
And you can see that in theobituaries about him.
He was very public about it,which a lot of people were not.
And they mention it in theobituaries as one of the main
things about him and his life.
(07:50):
So...
If he lived there during thetime of slavery, it's only
natural to think that that couldhave had something to do with
the Underground Railroad.
SPEAKER_03 (08:04):
The Marriott House.
I'm going to call it theMarriott House because
Marriott's my man, so to speak.
And it's his history that led meto finding the house and helping
to put together the UndergroundRoute.
Oh, that's
SPEAKER_04 (08:20):
Fergus Mordewig there.
He's a historian and author ofmany books of U.S.
history, but specifically forthis episode, he wrote a book
titled Bound for Canaan, theEpic Story of the Underground
Railroad, what Fergus callsAmerica's first civil rights
movement.
In the preface to the paperbackedition, He writes, the response
to the hardcover edition hasbeen enthusiastic, in part no
(08:41):
doubt reflecting the simple factthat it is the first national
history of the UndergroundRailroad to be published in more
than a century.
Isn't that something?
Bound for Canaan was publishedin 2005, and in it, Fergus
quotes from letters written byCharles Marriott to Isaac
Hopper, who Fergus describes asthe father of the Underground
Railroad.
Here's what Fergus wrote aboutMarriott in his book.
(09:03):
In November 1838, CharlesMarriott, a gentleman farmer and
close friend of Isaac Hopper,wrote matter-of-factly from his
home near the small city ofHudson to their mutual friend,
Roland T.
Robinson, in Vermont.
The letter reads, Many fugitivesfrom the South effect their
escape.
Three passed through my handslast week.
Now, my question is, wasMarriott writing about this very
(09:25):
von Hosen Marriott house thatwe've been talking about all
episode long?
And more broadly, why?
Who was Charles Marriott, aQuaker abolitionist, gentleman
farmer, and operator on theUnderground Railroad?
SPEAKER_03 (09:38):
Okay, I think we're still waiting for a good
biography of Charles Marriott,who deserves much more
attention, I think.
He's a tantalizing figure.
His real home is New York City.
He's a Quaker.
And he is connected in New YorkCity with radical Quakers, most
notably Isaac Tatum Hopper.
(10:01):
who was a Quaker originally fromPhiladelphia and who was the key
figure.
I've sometimes referred to himas the father of the Underground
Railroad.
I wouldn't cast that label inconcrete, but he is the earliest
individual I was able to findwho was actively involved in
organizing the Underground as weknow it to have been.
(10:24):
He systematically worked outroutes, safe houses, disguises,
He was one bold Quaker.
So Marriott is involved fromearly on with Hopper and certain
other men in the city.
Marriott has property up inClaverack, Hudson area.
He has orchards, especially whensteamboats are plying the river.
(10:49):
There was a very, veryprofitable business in shipping
fruit, especially apples.
Still is, actually, down to NewYork City.
So this is what Marriott'sengaged in.
And he has several propertiesnear Hudson, New York.
And it's impossible to say atthis point how early Marriott
(11:10):
began personally assistingfugitive slaves.
Undoubtedly, he was involved init in New York City with
collaborating with Hopper andothers, other Quakers, in seeing
that freedom seekers weredispatched up the Hudson River.
I'm pretty sure on steamboats.
by that time.
I can't prove it.
It's a surmise.
(11:32):
But the House embodies theentire history of slavery and
anti-slavery in the UnitedStates.
It's embedded in that property.
It's embedded in the bricks,even, so to speak, and in the
earth that surrounds it.
Yes, there were people enslavedthere.
New York was a slave state.
New York was a slave state.
(11:52):
The Hudson Valley was anepicenter of slavery in New York
State.
And the Hudson Valley, somefarmers in the Hudson Valley
clung to slavery longer thanalmost any other New Yorkers
SPEAKER_04 (12:04):
in the early 19th century.
Slavery in the Hudson Valley.
Well, that brings us to the workof the African-American Archive
of Columbia County.
The archive was founded in2020-2021 when Lisa Flood Smith
began looking into her familytree with her husband, Pete.
They were surprised to find howconnected Black families,
descendants of the enslaved, areto the history of New York.
(12:25):
And also that so many of thesedescendants still use the
surnames of the families thatenslaved them.
Black people who didn't comefrom the Netherlands with names
such as Von Ness and Von Buren.
Here's Lisa.
SPEAKER_01 (12:38):
We started out as a genealogical organization
because we were looking into ourown family history.
And we kept finding all of thesereally interesting facts and
people in the genealogy.
we realized that enslavement inColumbia County was much more
vast than we ever thought itwas.
So we started the organizationto be able to record that and
(13:00):
help other people find their ownancestors from Columbia County,
from the enslaved population.
Kinderhook itself, and you haveto remember that what we're
talking about is not the currenttown of Kinderhook.
It is really the area that isalmost the entire east side of
Columbia County.
It at that point was the areapretty much between
Rensselaerswijk and LivingstonManor.
(13:22):
So it was a much larger area.
And it is unique in the factthat we know that it had a very
large population of enslavedpeople.
We know that some of the homesare still existing.
We know that there is moreresearch to be done to put those
people in those houses to figureout who was where.
And that's one of the reasonsthat we really want to engage
(13:46):
more with the community becauseit's important to be able to
have a record, to be able toshare with people exactly this
is what the history was.
SPEAKER_00 (13:57):
I think the Van Hoosenhuis is incredibly
important to our area, but alsoto our country.
Architecturally, it representssomething that's very unique in
Dutch architecture at the time.
Historically, Jan van Hoosen,Jan Frans van Hoosen, he was one
(14:18):
of the first landowners.
He purchased the land from theMohican people and was a very
important person in thebeginning of that history, of
Dutch history in our area.
Also, the fact that CharlesMarriott lived in that house
with his sister is incrediblyimportant.
He's one of the bigabolitionists abolitionists in
our nation nationally.
(14:40):
So for him to have resided therewhile he was an active
abolitionist and associated withthe Rochaby farm is incredible.
SPEAKER_03 (14:48):
One of my goals with the book was to take the
Underground Railroad out of therealm of myth and legend and
show that it had a history.
It was knowable.
There was a great deal ofinformation available, which had
simply been neglected forgenerations.
Now, why was that?
Well, basically, the UndergroundRailroad was part of
(15:09):
abolitionist history, obviously,and also of black
African-American history,obviously.
And both those spheres ofAmerican history were pretty
much airbrushed out of thenational story, beginning with
the end of Reconstruction andthrough the long, long, long
dark night of Jim Crow.
SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
The Van Hozen Marriott House is a really
unique home.
There are not many buildingsleft from that era because a lot
were built out of wood and theyhave gone away.
But this house has stood for allof this time.
So it has the history from the1700s when it was built.
Also, it has the history ofbeing a space of enslavement.
(15:52):
We also have the added layer ofit being a house that was a
location on the UndergroundRailroad.
It is probably the only housestill existing that is so
important to so many differentaspects of history.
And it really needs to be saved.
SPEAKER_04 (16:15):
It is a house of contradiction.
It's so interesting to mebecause this house represents so
much of what the United Stateshas always been.
Contradictory, complicated.
Fergus Bordewijk told me thathistory is a story full of
contradictions.
People are contradictory.
SPEAKER_03 (16:31):
People who participated in the Underground
Railroad often were full ofcontradictions themselves.
And I think more broadly it fitsinto this idea of American
exceptionalism that we haveoften been wedded to and many
(16:52):
people in our political realmwant to celebrate, even though
the truth defies that.
So it fits into the way we wantto think about our past.
That's to make a romance at theUnderground Railroad.
And my own view is we don't needto do that anymore.
We are grown up as a country.
(17:14):
We don't need these fictions.
They don't serve us very well.
The truth will serve us better.
The truth is more complicated.
It's not always pretty.
Our history is not absent ofheroism.
It's not absent of overcomingtremendous challenges.
Those things are there, too.
(17:34):
But we shouldn't be afraid ofseeing the other side of things.
And underneath the romance ofthe Underground Railroad is this
story of slavery.
SPEAKER_04 (17:45):
That's why I think it's important to preserve this
house, this site.
And we're using this project toraise awareness of this house's
history and kick off afundraising initiative.
And we'll host both Ed Klinglerand Fergus Bordewijk in person
at a discussion in March.
It'll be at the Hudson AreaLibrary on March 9th.
And we'll screen the shortdocumentary that I've been
(18:07):
working on here, for which theseinterviews were recorded.
I hope you can make it.
You can find more informationabout this event at
hudsonarealibrary.org.
I'll also have a link to this inthe show notes of this episode.
Well, that's it for this episodeof the Jiffy Audio Newsletter
Podcast.
If you liked it, I hope you'llsubscribe, share it with a
(18:28):
friend, write a review even.
I'm just glad you made it allthe way to the end of the
episode.
Of course, there's more Jiffy atthejiffy.xyz and the Instagram
feed.
You can always find me at JamesCave on Instagram.
Thanks for listening.
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