March 23, 2025 • 26 mins
This week brought the first official day of spring – but as a confusing and misplaced winter storm batters my windows, I’m bringing you one last cozy episode before we fold up the Cozy Map for good.
In this episode, I visit one of my favorite places on earth: Rodgers Book Barn in Hillsdale, NY. I chat with legendary owner Maureen Rodgers, who’s been stocking her shelves with used books since the 1960s, about how she finds books, what makes a book cozy, and how the book barn industry has changed over the decades.
Then, I drive to Kinderhook to visit my friend Tom Grattan, esteemed novelist and experienced reader. I snoop around his book shelves a bit, and Tom gives us three of his top reading recommendations for 2025 so far – with one bonus pick saved just for The Jiffy newsletter subscribers at the J'Fay Supreme level.
Guests:
- Maureen Rodgers – Owner of Rodgers Book Barn
- Tom Grattan – Author of "The Recent East" and "In Tongues"
Books Recommended by Tom:
- "Mothers and Sons," by Adam Haslett
- "Ghost Roots," by Pemi Aguda
- "Lives of the Saints," by Nancy Lemann
- Mysterious Book by Important Author
Extras:
- Get Maureen’s Cozy Reading Tips + Tom’s Bonus Book Pick – only at the J'Fay Supreme level.
- Upgrade for $5/month or $50/year: https://thejiffy.beehiiv.com/upgrade
Follow Tom on Instagram: @tomgrattan
Follow the Book Barn on Instagram: @rodgersbookbarn
Follow me: @jamescave
More Jiffy: thejiffy.xyz
"The Jiffy Audio Newsletter Podcast" is an audio documentary zine – the official podcast of The Jiffy – exploring the odd histories, cozy mysteries, and surprising characters of upstate New York. Each episode is a small adventure, told with curiosity, humor, and the occasional text message from a stranger.
New episodes drop every other week. Subscribe, share, and take the scenic route with us.
Follow James on Instagram: @jamescave
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to another cozy episode of the
Chiffy Audio Newsletter Podcast.
It's the podcast version of thenewsletter version of the James
Cave Instagram feed.
That's me.
I'm James Cave, the talkingvoice here at the podcast.
And you might remember over onthe Instagram feed recently, I
charted a map of cozy and comfyplaces throughout the Hudson
(00:23):
Valley just to try to help usall get through winter.
Well, in the midst of mydiscovery making, I found
bookstores, fireplaces,restaurant places, even third
places.
Almost 150 comfy places in all.
And because this week wecelebrated the first day of
(00:44):
spring as well as the firstofficial nice day, a day above
60 degrees.
I know that you might bethinking, is the cozy map still
relevant?
Is it even still needed?
Isn't it time to move on?
Well, I'll tell you, as I'mrecording this, it's storming
outside, a sort of a surprisestorm, a wintry mix of ice,
(01:07):
sleet, and snow, all of those.
And the wind is also justblowing really hard.
I don't know if you can, youmight be able to hear it in the
background.
It kind of sounds like a ghost.
Anyway, it's taking its toll onboth my spirit and my patience.
But because I don't want to benegative here, I only want the
podcast to be a happy place.
(01:29):
That's why I think it's time forone last look at the cozy map of
comfy places before we fold themap up for good and hopefully
welcome the warmth of spring.
UNKNOWN (01:42):
So
SPEAKER_03 (01:43):
Now, OK, as part of the Cozy series, you may have
seen it on the Instagram feed.
I made a short documentary aboutone of my favorite places on the
planet.
The Book Barn in Hillsdale, NewYork.
It's owned by a living legend,Maureen Rogers, and she's been
in this old barn in the woodssince the late 1960s.
Maureen gave me a tour of thebarn, and we talked for a long
(02:05):
time.
I learned a lot about herbackstory, how she found herself
in Hillsdale from New York City,how the market for used books
has changed over the decades,and we heard her strategy for
finding the coziest reads.
But of course, I could onlyinclude a little bit of that
conversation in the, what wasit, something like three-minute
Instagram video.
(02:25):
So I thought for the podcasttoday, we could listen into an
extended version of myconversation with Maureen
Rogers.
But first, here's the audio fromthat original documentary.
During this winter time, I'vebeen on a journey to find the
coziest places across the HudsonValley, starting with my own
house.
I'm putting them all on aninteractive map soon, but my
(02:45):
first stop had to be one of myall-time favorite places on the
planet.
Rogers Book Barn, tucked intothe rolling hills of Hillsdale,
New York.
Rooms and rooms and shelves.
Two floors just filled withtreasures.
This is Maureen Rogers.
She owns and curates it with herassistant, Kate, and Maureen's
been doing this for more than 50years, if you can believe it.
Obviously, it's a cozy place.
I wanted to ask her aboutchoosing cozy books.
(03:06):
Maureen, hi Maureen, thanks forbeing here.
Tell us, what makes a book acozy read?
SPEAKER_04 (03:10):
Well, not necessarily a book, but I think
you can find books in here thatmight be considered cozy.
I mean, certainly some mysteriesfor sure, but also books that
you could really, an interest ofyours, say you were interested
in fishing perhaps, and youwould find something, you know,
(03:33):
that would really look throughand Make you think.
And it's cozy if you can take ithome and you sit by the fire and
you look through your books.
Does that make it cozy?
So let's see.
We're coming into the section uphere that's mostly other
countries.
This is travel, a little travelsection.
I have an ephemera table, whichis a good catch-all for stuff.
(03:58):
Well, I find memoir interesting.
And I also tend to...
pick out, you know, one classicthat I haven't read.
Where to put them is anothermatter.
Maybe the first half hour in themorning, read something that's
perhaps a little challenging.
Quite a lot of classics I needto really look at again, you
(04:21):
know.
So, and then this is literaturealong here and essays.
So, I guess I just wanted tomake sure that, because
literature is after my ownheart.
(04:41):
So I hope anybody who comes inhere could find something of
interest, even if they didn'thave it in their mind to start
with.
Books they never knew theywanted.
SPEAKER_03 (04:51):
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for joining me andtalking with me.
I've been wanting to chat withyou for Oh, my goodness.
As soon as I knew you existedhere, this is so fun.
I can spend and have spent likeprobably a cumulative of three
(05:11):
months.
Here.
SPEAKER_04 (05:15):
Love it.
SPEAKER_03 (05:15):
Just spending all the time.
I think that's what makes thisplace just so special is that it
is the absolute not theInternet.
It is not at all Amazon.
It is like a space.
Thank you.
(05:52):
Because this feels like acreative vision of Maureen
Rogers come to life, right?
So can you talk a little bitabout the intention or the
vision of the book?
Well,
SPEAKER_04 (06:02):
so first of all, when you pick books, they should
have something going for them.
And of course, a used bookstore.
You know, so you think in termsof categories, you know, or
different countries.
So I started a history andtravel section with different
countries in it.
But it's My own interest andbias really have been
(06:26):
literature, history, and art.
So it's tended towards that.
It used to be that fishing andhunting were very big here
locally, and then I learnedlocally what people might like.
I didn't have any light reading.
Now I have a whole mysterysection, you know.
So I've also listened tocustomers, what they might like,
(06:47):
and I looked out for that when Iwas looking for books.
SPEAKER_03 (06:51):
What do our neighbors like to read these
days?
SPEAKER_04 (06:53):
Well, of course, they come with lists, which
isn't particularly a good idea.
And they have some definiteideas.
But local history has alwaysbeen interesting to keep.
Mystery section sells quitewell.
And then I stock a book, even ifIf it's interesting to me, you
(07:18):
know, and it's some obscurehistory in, you know, the middle
of Latvia or something, I willget it, you know, just because
it looks like it could beinteresting to somebody.
and this would be true with artand photography, you know, if
it's...
SPEAKER_03 (07:33):
You've got books on interior decorating, jazz
history.
There's a book here in front ofme called Eskimo Rolling on how
to roll a canoe.
You've got...
SPEAKER_04 (07:42):
Yeah, well,
SPEAKER_03 (07:42):
somebody might be interested in that.
The Civil War.
It's just so diverse and vast.
You've got books on needlepointand crafts and then these
antique marble-edged, you know,leather-bound books over there.
Right, well,
SPEAKER_04 (07:54):
I'm always interested in the really
antiquarian, which is trickier,really, much trickier.
I was going to
SPEAKER_03 (08:02):
ask, how do you source, where do you go to
source all of these?
How do these books findthemselves here in your barn?
SPEAKER_04 (08:08):
Well, some of them are donated.
We have a really generous, whichis wonderful, and that's
donations really started tohappen after COVID.
COVID, so it hasn't been a longtradition, and I love it.
It's really been a help.
It's kept us in business.
But apart from that, especiallythe scarcer books, tends to be
(08:30):
house calls when people aremoving or there's a generational
shift.
I also go to book sales.
SPEAKER_03 (08:37):
I've seen you at library book sales.
There we go.
With your eye.
You're looking.
You're always looking.
Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_04 (08:43):
And sometimes my assistant Kate and I, we go, we
try to cover the book salesonly, you
SPEAKER_03 (08:50):
know.
Yeah, what are your strategiesfor success at those books?
Because those library book salescan be very competitive.
SPEAKER_04 (08:56):
Well, they are, yes.
Well, I don't really have onestrategy.
Although I do look at thedealers in front of me and know
what they're looking for.
So I might go to another tableor something.
But gone are the days when Iused to have long arms.
And now that's the youngergeneration.
SPEAKER_03 (09:16):
Well, I always give you the right of way at those
sales.
Thank you.
I
SPEAKER_04 (09:20):
appreciate that.
SPEAKER_03 (09:25):
Okay, so here's what you do.
You go to the book barn.
You don't bring a list.
Okay, it's not a good idea.
You should just wander around.
Let the books guide you.
Spend half your day.
Spend your whole day there.
And as you start finding books,you can actually take them to
the front.
She has shelves near the cashregister where you could stash
(09:46):
your books and keep looking.
And then after you're done, youcan ask her to show you the good
books that don't sell.
I'm telling you, she will showyou all the hidden gems.
And I promise you'll have thebest time.
While I was at Maureen's placewalking around, looking at all
her books, I realized that I'vebeen so busy being an upstate
(10:11):
neighborhood local influencertrying to make this cozy map
that I've lost touch withreading.
I've let all the latest bookspass me by.
I've really fallen out of theloop of new releases.
And, um...
Let me tell you, there were alot of new titles that came out
in 2024.
It looks like 2025 is going tobe a good year, too.
But it feels like getting backup to speed is feeling
(10:34):
overwhelming.
But that's OK, because I knowwho could help for that.
We need to take a drive toKinderhook, New York, to visit
my friend Tom in his beautifulold home.
Tom Gratton is a novelist andteacher, author of the 2021
novel The Recent East, as wellas In Tongues, which came out
last year.
Tom writes about themes ofdisplacement, identity,
(10:55):
belonging, family histories, andhe sometimes experiments with
temporality in reallyinteresting ways, shows how time
passing can influence anarrator's recollection or the
storytelling.
And his writing is really funnyand Tongues is one of my
favorite books of 2024.
It's truly stuff that only Tomcould write.
A brilliant mind and one of akind.
(11:17):
Oh, by the way, Tom also reads alot of books, which is why I
thought he could help here forthis particular section.
Oh, okay, we're here.
So I'm hoping we can take a lookand maybe snoop around some of
Tom's bookshelves a bit.
Maybe even get somerecommendations.
I hope he doesn't mind.
Okay, let's go knock on hisdoor.
UNKNOWN (11:35):
Knock, knock, knock.
SPEAKER_01 (11:37):
How are you?
I'm good.
How are you doing, Tom?
Come on in.
SPEAKER_02 (11:41):
Do you want a cup of coffee, by the way?
Oh, I'd love a cup of coffee.
SPEAKER_00 (11:44):
All right.
So we'll drink coffee and I willshow you all the weird nooks
where books are.
You want to do a tour of thecells, right?
So we've looked all over.
We have some here.
Um...
They're not terribly organized.
My office upstairs is where Ihave that sort of the mess.
These look prettier because thisis a public space.
But yeah, so.
SPEAKER_03 (12:05):
Did you ever go through a phase during the
pandemic, you know, the peakwhere you curated yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
My little nook, because during the pandemic,
when my first book came out, Iwas doing all of my book events
from this tiny nook that you'llsee in a second.
So then I was like, I had a fewbooks.
I was like, I'm ashamed thatthis book is visible.
So I'd move books that looked alittle better.
So this is the tiniest office inAmerica, which is my office
right here.
As you can see, it's very small.
(12:30):
Oh, it's perfect
SPEAKER_03 (12:33):
for writing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
It's great.
So I think this is probably aformer closet.
It is maybe...
What is this?
Four feet wide?
Three feet wide?
It does have a window, though,which is dreamy.
And then my partner puts shelveson both ends.
So this is really sort of wherethe things I'm reading or just
finished mostly end up here.
So this is like my...
And it's less organized.
(12:55):
It's less neat.
There's some random notebooksand things.
But this is definitely because Iwould sit and Zoom, do all my
Zoom stuff here.
So then I would see certainthings like...
Like some of this is like mypartner's into sci-fi and I'm
not.
And I'm just like, so I'd movethose so my head would cover
them because I'm a snob and Ididn't want people to think I
(13:15):
read trashy sci-fi.
So apologize to any of thelisteners who love trashy
sci-fi.
SPEAKER_03 (13:21):
I was mentioning to the listener just a few seconds
ago how my recent visit toMaureen Rogers' book barn
happened.
really made me realize how muchI haven't been reading lately.
And I thought, you know, ifthere's anyone in my life who I
feel like would be good atreading, it would be you.
So I thought...
You read a lot of books.
Yeah.
So I thought, wow, what is...
(13:42):
I wonder what Tom's beenreading?
Like, where do I even begin?
And would Tom have anyrecommendations?
So I was
SPEAKER_00 (13:48):
wondering...
I have a lot.
And so I'm going to narrow itdown to four books that I've
read in the last few months thatI thought were really
interesting for differentreasons.
So the first one, can we Shouldwe begin?
Cool.
All right.
The first one is called Mothersand Sons by Adam Haslett.
Adam Haslett is, this is histhird novel.
He also wrote a really fantasticcollection of short stories.
(14:10):
The novel before this was calledImagine Me Gone, which if you
want to read something that isreally beautiful and will make
you very sad, I recommendImagine Me Gone.
So Mothers and Sons is anothergreat book by Adam Haslett, who
I think is just a, he's a reallysmart writer who I just, I
appreciate a writer when I feellike You just feel like you're
having a conversation with areally smart person or listening
(14:32):
in on a conversation rather witha really smart person.
And I feel like this story isabout, as the title suggests,
about a mother and a son who, asthe book begins, the son is,
he's in his early 40s and hismother, he and his mother are
estranged.
He is a gay man living in NewYork, working as an immigration
(14:53):
lawyer, helping people, tryingto help people who are seeking
asylum.
So already that aspect of thestory, I think, really creates a
lot of momentum in terms of theplot because it's just, for
these people, it's just...
If they get asylum or not isjust it's it's the stakes are
couldn't be higher for and forhis work.
And so so and and I believeHassett is a lawyer or a former
(15:16):
lawyer.
So he really understands thisworld.
And so you get the sort of theminutia of it.
Also, I will say sort of whatcan be really cruel about our
immigration system in terms ofthe way that the lawyers try to
keep people from seeking asylum.
just sort of the casual crueltywhich they engage in these
people.
So there are moments where youfelt a little rage reading it
too, but it's really beautifullydone and really well done.
(15:40):
And so the story starts toreally take off when he has a
young client, a man in his early20s, he's a gay Albanian seeking
refuge because a family memberbeat him to near death.
And so he doesn't want to goback to Albania.
And his sort of work andobsession with this case leads
back to a trauma from when hewas younger that led to the
(16:02):
estrangement between him and hismother.
There's also the narration ofthe mother, Anne, who, when the
narrator, Peter, was young, leftthe father for a woman.
And so now she and her partnerhave started this women's
retreat center in Vermont.
And so and she clearly wants toreconnect with her son, but he
will not really give her thetime of day.
Long story short, things happenwith his case and and and things
(16:25):
do not go very well and thatsomehow forces them to
reconnect.
And also he slowly reveals whathappened to sort of sever their
relationship initially.
Really well plotted book.
It's really like both thecharacters are really both
damaged and kind of, but alsoreally seeking love in a way
(16:47):
that, and really smart and thatfeels really, compelling to
read.
I really appreciated that itwent in directions you didn't
think it would go.
That the young Albanian man,like that he sort of becomes
obsessed with him.
I was worried it was going to gointo sort of weird cliche waters
and it did not at all.
And I also thought it was reallyinteresting.
A lot of stories about like aqueer child and their parents,
(17:08):
often the disconnect or thestruggle between them is often
about the child's sexuality.
But having both of them asqueer, just it complicated that
and it became a story about...
how parents and childrenstruggle to connect regardless
of what they have in common.
All right, so this book is forpeople who like a really good
(17:32):
literary book that is reallybeautifully written, that
focuses on messy, complicatedhuman dynamics.
A book that allows for ambiguitythat doesn't sort of have like a
neat wrapped up ending.
Okay, the next one.
I loved, When I read a goodshort story collection, I love
to tell people about it becauseI think oftentimes short story
(17:54):
collections don't get as muchattention as novels.
Although this one has gotten agood amount of attention, but
it's great and there are reasonsfor it.
It is a debut short storycollection by a writer named
Pemi Aguda, who's a Nigerianwriter living in the States now,
and it's called Ghost Roots.
These stories are really sharpand really unnerving.
A lot of them are speculative,so a lot of them she's sort of
playing with reality or therules of reality that are
(18:18):
sometimes really messed with inreally smart ways that I think
actually convey something reallyimportant about human
experience.
Not all of them are, but all thestories have kind of a haunted
quality.
So it feels like you're readinga collection of sort of ghost
stories, even though some ofthem are written sort of as
realistic prose.
(18:39):
Really, just something reallysmart.
It almost feels like somethingwhen you eat something that's
really super flavorful, but likereally rich and you have a few
bites of it and you're like,that was just an amazing, such a
satisfying experience.
And that's what all thesestories are like.
There's one called Breast Milk,which is about a woman who has
recently just had a kid andshe's not able to breastfeed
(18:59):
because her breast milk isn't,she's not producing breast milk.
And there's so many things aboutsort of the sort of the shame of
this and sort of that she hassomehow failed, but also her
ambivalence about being aparent.
And there's this moment.
And so she does a lot of stuffabout sort of gender, both in
Nigeria, but I think just aboutsort of gender expectations in
general.
(19:19):
And there's this moment in thestory, and I read this story
probably a month or two ago,where she, the baby she has is a
son, and she just sort of thinkswith dread about him as an adult
and But like the likelihood ofhim as a man inflicting sort of
harm on other people.
But it's just a moment where shetakes something like the
(19:40):
motherhood and she, with suchhonesty and such just surprise,
like will say these things.
So...
All these stories, they takethese really interesting turns
that you wouldn't expect.
There's another one where anadult daughter is living with
her mother.
Her parents are alreadydivorced, and the mother, on a
rainy night, is driving, and shehits and kills a young woman.
And so the mother just fallsapart, and finally you start to
(20:02):
realize, and this is giving alittle bit away, but not too
much, that she's convinced thatnow she's going to be punished,
that her daughter is going tosomehow be taken care of.
And the mother just sort ofbecomes this weird ghost
wandering around the house, eventhough she's just it's her
grief.
But but the way the storiesmove, they all move in these
surprising directions.
So I loved this collection.
And I believe she might have anovel coming out in the next
(20:24):
year or two.
Pemi Aguda, Ghost Roots.
Strong recommendation.
Yeah.
So the next one is kind of anoldie that I didn't know this
book existed until my editor,who obviously I think has good
taste because he's my editor, heposted about this book on social
media.
I was like, what is this book?
It's called The Lives of Saintsby Nancy Lamon, I think is how
(20:47):
you say it.
It came out in the mid-80s, andhe just posted this love letter
to this book.
I was like, never heard of this.
It took a while to find it.
Luckily, the Mid-Hudson LibrarySystem, is amazing to shout out
to the Kindergarten Library, butalso the fact that they can get
books from...
And that's where I got it.
And it's a short novel.
(21:07):
It's like maybe 150 pages.
And if you look at the cover andthe title, it looks kind of like
if any of you remember thosesort of Ann Tyler books from the
80s, like The AccidentalTourist, which...
not to talk trash about AnnTyler, but she's, she's a great
writer, but it doesn't, it felta little, it looked, I was like,
and it's called The Lives ofSaints.
I was, I was surprised.
(21:30):
that this was something that myeditor recommended until I
started reading it.
It is such a sharp book.
It feels like a...
It takes place in New Orleans inthe 80s.
The narrator is a woman namedLouise who's just returned from
college in the Northeast.
And it's this New Orleans that'sboth kind of wealthy but also
just decrepit and falling apart.
And there's...
(21:51):
It is really a book...
If you love a book that has anamazing voice, this book...
It's the beginning of the book.
She's at a wedding andeveryone's having a nervous
breakdown.
The bride's weeping.
The groom is weeping.
All the parents are weeping.
People are like drunk andthrowing.
It's just, but there's thisweird deadpan to the voice.
You're like, what is happening?
And yet it's so smart andstrange.
And there's this reallyinteresting rhythm and cadence
(22:11):
to her writing.
It's all these really shortchapters.
And she is, she basicallyreturned and she's not really
sure what to do next.
And she's in love with this mannamed Claude, who's one of the
more interesting characters I'veread in books.
recent fiction who is reallywarm and smart, but there's this
real sadness and damage to himand the self-destructive
quality.
And so it's really about hersort of this hopeless love story
(22:33):
with him as, as this community,their part is sort of whirling
and falling apart around them.
And it was interesting when,before I read, I was looking at
the blurbs on the back andthey're like hilarious.
And it is, but it also is adeeply sad book.
Some things happen that are,there's such tragedy in the
book, but I also, I, I love abook that is funny-sad.
I think books, I thinkoftentimes humor and sadness are
(22:55):
really close cousins, right?
And she is such a funny writerand the voice is such a smart
take of this world.
And yet...
There's some real tragedy andthere's real heartache in this
story.
So I thought that book wasreally, really well done.
I also think because there aremoments where really difficult
things happen, she never movesto a maudlin place.
(23:16):
Like she never goes to, there'snever sentimentality.
But really it's the rhythm ofher sentences.
It's the way she uses language.
It is the absurdity that justsort of highlights this world.
And it's interesting becausethis story about this community
in which everyone knows everyonefeels almost old-fashioned like
a Jane Austen novel wheneveryone talking about
everyone's business, but thenthe way the language structures,
(23:37):
functions and the way she sortof, the way she's able to
compress ideas into like onereally surprising, strange image
sort of feels really modern.
So it's a really, so I thoughtit was such a, it was such a
singular book, weird in all thegood ways.
So if you like kind of weird, ifyou like a Joy Williams or
someone like that, whose voice Ithink is amazing, I think this
is a book you should read.
SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
Well, this was really fun.
Thank you for talking us throughall these books and taking me to
her on the
SPEAKER_00 (24:02):
bookshelf.
Sure.
Really great.
I'm so happy to do it.
Hopefully, I'll be here againsoon with more book rambling.
Oh, Tom will be back.
SPEAKER_03 (24:11):
He's going to return every quarter to tell us what
he's read recently that weshould know about.
I mean, he calls it bookrambling.
And honestly, the way hedescribes the craft, I could
just listen to him book rambleall day.
I don't know, maybe we can callthis segment Book rambling with
Tom or Tom's book ramble.
I don't know.
I was thinking of just callingit Tom's shelf, but sort of a
(24:34):
ring to it.
Anyways, I'm just glad that hewas here in the show and I'm
glad you were here to listen toit.
By the way, there is a fourthselection.
Tom has a fourth selection.
It may be even the best one.
But I'm going to save it for thepremium subscribers at the Jiffy
Supreme level.
That's right.
You can subscribe to thenewsletter, upgrade to the Jiffy
Supreme.
(24:54):
It's an audio exclusive, andit's worth it.
Also, I've got Maureen's cozyreading tips over there, too.
It's just a bonus for Supremersonly, and you can upgrade for$5
a month to$50 a year.
I'll put a link in the shownotes to upgrade.
It's all very exciting.
I also have Tom's reading listin the show notes as well.
And hey, if you read any ofthese books I'd love to know
(25:17):
what you think.
DM me at James Cave onInstagram.
Also, DM Tom.
Follow Tom on Instagram, too.
He's at Tom Grattan,T-O-M-G-R-A-T-T-A-N.
I promise you'll be glad youdid.
It was really fun.
Thanks for listening.
Oh, one more thing.
Here's what else you need toknow today.
(25:40):
As I mentioned earlier, it's thestart of spring.
So with the closing of the CozyMap, I'm very excited.
We're starting a new series.
We're calling it the HudsonValley Mud Index of 2025.
I mean, they're saying it's themud season right now.
Apparently, the snow is melting,the fresh huts are rising, and
the trails are getting soggythroughout the valley.
(26:00):
But I'm not seeing too much mudright now.
Apparently, we're in a bit of adry spell.
So we're going to take a reallyclose-up look at where the mud
is and try to find some of theHudson Valley's best And I'm
also going to be launching ourJiffy Mart soon.
This is the online store of theJiffy.
It'll be very exciting.
Stay tuned for that.
That does it for this episode ofthe Jiffy Podcast.
(26:22):
If you liked it, share it with afriend or someone you love.
If you didn't like it, you couldshare it with your enemy.
I think either way, it reallyhelps.
Or you could even leave a reviewif the spirit moves you.
I'm just glad you made it thisfar in the episode all the way
to the end.
Thanks for listening.
Until next time, I'll see youover on the Instagram feed.
Hello and welcome to another cozy episode of the
Chiffy Audio Newsletter Podcast.
It's the podcast version of thenewsletter version of the James
Cave Instagram feed.
That's me.
I'm James Cave, the talkingvoice here at the podcast.
And you might remember over onthe Instagram feed recently, I
charted a map of cozy and comfyplaces throughout the Hudson
(00:23):
Valley just to try to help usall get through winter.
Well, in the midst of mydiscovery making, I found
bookstores, fireplaces,restaurant places, even third
places.
Almost 150 comfy places in all.
And because this week wecelebrated the first day of
(00:44):
spring as well as the firstofficial nice day, a day above
60 degrees.
I know that you might bethinking, is the cozy map still
relevant?
Is it even still needed?
Isn't it time to move on?
Well, I'll tell you, as I'mrecording this, it's storming
outside, a sort of a surprisestorm, a wintry mix of ice,
(01:07):
sleet, and snow, all of those.
And the wind is also justblowing really hard.
I don't know if you can, youmight be able to hear it in the
background.
It kind of sounds like a ghost.
Anyway, it's taking its toll onboth my spirit and my patience.
But because I don't want to benegative here, I only want the
podcast to be a happy place.
(01:29):
That's why I think it's time forone last look at the cozy map of
comfy places before we fold themap up for good and hopefully
welcome the warmth of spring.
UNKNOWN (01:42):
So
SPEAKER_03 (01:43):
Now, OK, as part of the Cozy series, you may have
seen it on the Instagram feed.
I made a short documentary aboutone of my favorite places on the
planet.
The Book Barn in Hillsdale, NewYork.
It's owned by a living legend,Maureen Rogers, and she's been
in this old barn in the woodssince the late 1960s.
Maureen gave me a tour of thebarn, and we talked for a long
(02:05):
time.
I learned a lot about herbackstory, how she found herself
in Hillsdale from New York City,how the market for used books
has changed over the decades,and we heard her strategy for
finding the coziest reads.
But of course, I could onlyinclude a little bit of that
conversation in the, what wasit, something like three-minute
Instagram video.
(02:25):
So I thought for the podcasttoday, we could listen into an
extended version of myconversation with Maureen
Rogers.
But first, here's the audio fromthat original documentary.
During this winter time, I'vebeen on a journey to find the
coziest places across the HudsonValley, starting with my own
house.
I'm putting them all on aninteractive map soon, but my
(02:45):
first stop had to be one of myall-time favorite places on the
planet.
Rogers Book Barn, tucked intothe rolling hills of Hillsdale,
New York.
Rooms and rooms and shelves.
Two floors just filled withtreasures.
This is Maureen Rogers.
She owns and curates it with herassistant, Kate, and Maureen's
been doing this for more than 50years, if you can believe it.
Obviously, it's a cozy place.
I wanted to ask her aboutchoosing cozy books.
(03:06):
Maureen, hi Maureen, thanks forbeing here.
Tell us, what makes a book acozy read?
SPEAKER_04 (03:10):
Well, not necessarily a book, but I think
you can find books in here thatmight be considered cozy.
I mean, certainly some mysteriesfor sure, but also books that
you could really, an interest ofyours, say you were interested
in fishing perhaps, and youwould find something, you know,
(03:33):
that would really look throughand Make you think.
And it's cozy if you can take ithome and you sit by the fire and
you look through your books.
Does that make it cozy?
So let's see.
We're coming into the section uphere that's mostly other
countries.
This is travel, a little travelsection.
I have an ephemera table, whichis a good catch-all for stuff.
(03:58):
Well, I find memoir interesting.
And I also tend to...
pick out, you know, one classicthat I haven't read.
Where to put them is anothermatter.
Maybe the first half hour in themorning, read something that's
perhaps a little challenging.
Quite a lot of classics I needto really look at again, you
(04:21):
know.
So, and then this is literaturealong here and essays.
So, I guess I just wanted tomake sure that, because
literature is after my ownheart.
(04:41):
So I hope anybody who comes inhere could find something of
interest, even if they didn'thave it in their mind to start
with.
Books they never knew theywanted.
SPEAKER_03 (04:51):
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for joining me andtalking with me.
I've been wanting to chat withyou for Oh, my goodness.
As soon as I knew you existedhere, this is so fun.
I can spend and have spent likeprobably a cumulative of three
(05:11):
months.
Here.
SPEAKER_04 (05:15):
Love it.
SPEAKER_03 (05:15):
Just spending all the time.
I think that's what makes thisplace just so special is that it
is the absolute not theInternet.
It is not at all Amazon.
It is like a space.
Thank you.
(05:52):
Because this feels like acreative vision of Maureen
Rogers come to life, right?
So can you talk a little bitabout the intention or the
vision of the book?
Well,
SPEAKER_04 (06:02):
so first of all, when you pick books, they should
have something going for them.
And of course, a used bookstore.
You know, so you think in termsof categories, you know, or
different countries.
So I started a history andtravel section with different
countries in it.
But it's My own interest andbias really have been
(06:26):
literature, history, and art.
So it's tended towards that.
It used to be that fishing andhunting were very big here
locally, and then I learnedlocally what people might like.
I didn't have any light reading.
Now I have a whole mysterysection, you know.
So I've also listened tocustomers, what they might like,
(06:47):
and I looked out for that when Iwas looking for books.
SPEAKER_03 (06:51):
What do our neighbors like to read these
days?
SPEAKER_04 (06:53):
Well, of course, they come with lists, which
isn't particularly a good idea.
And they have some definiteideas.
But local history has alwaysbeen interesting to keep.
Mystery section sells quitewell.
And then I stock a book, even ifIf it's interesting to me, you
(07:18):
know, and it's some obscurehistory in, you know, the middle
of Latvia or something, I willget it, you know, just because
it looks like it could beinteresting to somebody.
and this would be true with artand photography, you know, if
it's...
SPEAKER_03 (07:33):
You've got books on interior decorating, jazz
history.
There's a book here in front ofme called Eskimo Rolling on how
to roll a canoe.
You've got...
SPEAKER_04 (07:42):
Yeah, well,
SPEAKER_03 (07:42):
somebody might be interested in that.
The Civil War.
It's just so diverse and vast.
You've got books on needlepointand crafts and then these
antique marble-edged, you know,leather-bound books over there.
Right, well,
SPEAKER_04 (07:54):
I'm always interested in the really
antiquarian, which is trickier,really, much trickier.
I was going to
SPEAKER_03 (08:02):
ask, how do you source, where do you go to
source all of these?
How do these books findthemselves here in your barn?
SPEAKER_04 (08:08):
Well, some of them are donated.
We have a really generous, whichis wonderful, and that's
donations really started tohappen after COVID.
COVID, so it hasn't been a longtradition, and I love it.
It's really been a help.
It's kept us in business.
But apart from that, especiallythe scarcer books, tends to be
(08:30):
house calls when people aremoving or there's a generational
shift.
I also go to book sales.
SPEAKER_03 (08:37):
I've seen you at library book sales.
There we go.
With your eye.
You're looking.
You're always looking.
Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_04 (08:43):
And sometimes my assistant Kate and I, we go, we
try to cover the book salesonly, you
SPEAKER_03 (08:50):
know.
Yeah, what are your strategiesfor success at those books?
Because those library book salescan be very competitive.
SPEAKER_04 (08:56):
Well, they are, yes.
Well, I don't really have onestrategy.
Although I do look at thedealers in front of me and know
what they're looking for.
So I might go to another tableor something.
But gone are the days when Iused to have long arms.
And now that's the youngergeneration.
SPEAKER_03 (09:16):
Well, I always give you the right of way at those
sales.
Thank you.
I
SPEAKER_04 (09:20):
appreciate that.
SPEAKER_03 (09:25):
Okay, so here's what you do.
You go to the book barn.
You don't bring a list.
Okay, it's not a good idea.
You should just wander around.
Let the books guide you.
Spend half your day.
Spend your whole day there.
And as you start finding books,you can actually take them to
the front.
She has shelves near the cashregister where you could stash
(09:46):
your books and keep looking.
And then after you're done, youcan ask her to show you the good
books that don't sell.
I'm telling you, she will showyou all the hidden gems.
And I promise you'll have thebest time.
While I was at Maureen's placewalking around, looking at all
her books, I realized that I'vebeen so busy being an upstate
(10:11):
neighborhood local influencertrying to make this cozy map
that I've lost touch withreading.
I've let all the latest bookspass me by.
I've really fallen out of theloop of new releases.
And, um...
Let me tell you, there were alot of new titles that came out
in 2024.
It looks like 2025 is going tobe a good year, too.
But it feels like getting backup to speed is feeling
(10:34):
overwhelming.
But that's OK, because I knowwho could help for that.
We need to take a drive toKinderhook, New York, to visit
my friend Tom in his beautifulold home.
Tom Gratton is a novelist andteacher, author of the 2021
novel The Recent East, as wellas In Tongues, which came out
last year.
Tom writes about themes ofdisplacement, identity,
(10:55):
belonging, family histories, andhe sometimes experiments with
temporality in reallyinteresting ways, shows how time
passing can influence anarrator's recollection or the
storytelling.
And his writing is really funnyand Tongues is one of my
favorite books of 2024.
It's truly stuff that only Tomcould write.
A brilliant mind and one of akind.
(11:17):
Oh, by the way, Tom also reads alot of books, which is why I
thought he could help here forthis particular section.
Oh, okay, we're here.
So I'm hoping we can take a lookand maybe snoop around some of
Tom's bookshelves a bit.
Maybe even get somerecommendations.
I hope he doesn't mind.
Okay, let's go knock on hisdoor.
UNKNOWN (11:35):
Knock, knock, knock.
SPEAKER_01 (11:37):
How are you?
I'm good.
How are you doing, Tom?
Come on in.
SPEAKER_02 (11:41):
Do you want a cup of coffee, by the way?
Oh, I'd love a cup of coffee.
SPEAKER_00 (11:44):
All right.
So we'll drink coffee and I willshow you all the weird nooks
where books are.
You want to do a tour of thecells, right?
So we've looked all over.
We have some here.
Um...
They're not terribly organized.
My office upstairs is where Ihave that sort of the mess.
These look prettier because thisis a public space.
But yeah, so.
SPEAKER_03 (12:05):
Did you ever go through a phase during the
pandemic, you know, the peakwhere you curated yourself?
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
My little nook, because during the pandemic,
when my first book came out, Iwas doing all of my book events
from this tiny nook that you'llsee in a second.
So then I was like, I had a fewbooks.
I was like, I'm ashamed thatthis book is visible.
So I'd move books that looked alittle better.
So this is the tiniest office inAmerica, which is my office
right here.
As you can see, it's very small.
(12:30):
Oh, it's perfect
SPEAKER_03 (12:33):
for writing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:34):
It's great.
So I think this is probably aformer closet.
It is maybe...
What is this?
Four feet wide?
Three feet wide?
It does have a window, though,which is dreamy.
And then my partner puts shelveson both ends.
So this is really sort of wherethe things I'm reading or just
finished mostly end up here.
So this is like my...
And it's less organized.
(12:55):
It's less neat.
There's some random notebooksand things.
But this is definitely because Iwould sit and Zoom, do all my
Zoom stuff here.
So then I would see certainthings like...
Like some of this is like mypartner's into sci-fi and I'm
not.
And I'm just like, so I'd movethose so my head would cover
them because I'm a snob and Ididn't want people to think I
(13:15):
read trashy sci-fi.
So apologize to any of thelisteners who love trashy
sci-fi.
SPEAKER_03 (13:21):
I was mentioning to the listener just a few seconds
ago how my recent visit toMaureen Rogers' book barn
happened.
really made me realize how muchI haven't been reading lately.
And I thought, you know, ifthere's anyone in my life who I
feel like would be good atreading, it would be you.
So I thought...
You read a lot of books.
Yeah.
So I thought, wow, what is...
(13:42):
I wonder what Tom's beenreading?
Like, where do I even begin?
And would Tom have anyrecommendations?
So I was
SPEAKER_00 (13:48):
wondering...
I have a lot.
And so I'm going to narrow itdown to four books that I've
read in the last few months thatI thought were really
interesting for differentreasons.
So the first one, can we Shouldwe begin?
Cool.
All right.
The first one is called Mothersand Sons by Adam Haslett.
Adam Haslett is, this is histhird novel.
He also wrote a really fantasticcollection of short stories.
(14:10):
The novel before this was calledImagine Me Gone, which if you
want to read something that isreally beautiful and will make
you very sad, I recommendImagine Me Gone.
So Mothers and Sons is anothergreat book by Adam Haslett, who
I think is just a, he's a reallysmart writer who I just, I
appreciate a writer when I feellike You just feel like you're
having a conversation with areally smart person or listening
(14:32):
in on a conversation rather witha really smart person.
And I feel like this story isabout, as the title suggests,
about a mother and a son who, asthe book begins, the son is,
he's in his early 40s and hismother, he and his mother are
estranged.
He is a gay man living in NewYork, working as an immigration
(14:53):
lawyer, helping people, tryingto help people who are seeking
asylum.
So already that aspect of thestory, I think, really creates a
lot of momentum in terms of theplot because it's just, for
these people, it's just...
If they get asylum or not isjust it's it's the stakes are
couldn't be higher for and forhis work.
And so so and and I believeHassett is a lawyer or a former
(15:16):
lawyer.
So he really understands thisworld.
And so you get the sort of theminutia of it.
Also, I will say sort of whatcan be really cruel about our
immigration system in terms ofthe way that the lawyers try to
keep people from seeking asylum.
just sort of the casual crueltywhich they engage in these
people.
So there are moments where youfelt a little rage reading it
too, but it's really beautifullydone and really well done.
(15:40):
And so the story starts toreally take off when he has a
young client, a man in his early20s, he's a gay Albanian seeking
refuge because a family memberbeat him to near death.
And so he doesn't want to goback to Albania.
And his sort of work andobsession with this case leads
back to a trauma from when hewas younger that led to the
(16:02):
estrangement between him and hismother.
There's also the narration ofthe mother, Anne, who, when the
narrator, Peter, was young, leftthe father for a woman.
And so now she and her partnerhave started this women's
retreat center in Vermont.
And so and she clearly wants toreconnect with her son, but he
will not really give her thetime of day.
Long story short, things happenwith his case and and and things
(16:25):
do not go very well and thatsomehow forces them to
reconnect.
And also he slowly reveals whathappened to sort of sever their
relationship initially.
Really well plotted book.
It's really like both thecharacters are really both
damaged and kind of, but alsoreally seeking love in a way
(16:47):
that, and really smart and thatfeels really, compelling to
read.
I really appreciated that itwent in directions you didn't
think it would go.
That the young Albanian man,like that he sort of becomes
obsessed with him.
I was worried it was going to gointo sort of weird cliche waters
and it did not at all.
And I also thought it was reallyinteresting.
A lot of stories about like aqueer child and their parents,
(17:08):
often the disconnect or thestruggle between them is often
about the child's sexuality.
But having both of them asqueer, just it complicated that
and it became a story about...
how parents and childrenstruggle to connect regardless
of what they have in common.
All right, so this book is forpeople who like a really good
(17:32):
literary book that is reallybeautifully written, that
focuses on messy, complicatedhuman dynamics.
A book that allows for ambiguitythat doesn't sort of have like a
neat wrapped up ending.
Okay, the next one.
I loved, When I read a goodshort story collection, I love
to tell people about it becauseI think oftentimes short story
(17:54):
collections don't get as muchattention as novels.
Although this one has gotten agood amount of attention, but
it's great and there are reasonsfor it.
It is a debut short storycollection by a writer named
Pemi Aguda, who's a Nigerianwriter living in the States now,
and it's called Ghost Roots.
These stories are really sharpand really unnerving.
A lot of them are speculative,so a lot of them she's sort of
playing with reality or therules of reality that are
(18:18):
sometimes really messed with inreally smart ways that I think
actually convey something reallyimportant about human
experience.
Not all of them are, but all thestories have kind of a haunted
quality.
So it feels like you're readinga collection of sort of ghost
stories, even though some ofthem are written sort of as
realistic prose.
(18:39):
Really, just something reallysmart.
It almost feels like somethingwhen you eat something that's
really super flavorful, but likereally rich and you have a few
bites of it and you're like,that was just an amazing, such a
satisfying experience.
And that's what all thesestories are like.
There's one called Breast Milk,which is about a woman who has
recently just had a kid andshe's not able to breastfeed
(18:59):
because her breast milk isn't,she's not producing breast milk.
And there's so many things aboutsort of the sort of the shame of
this and sort of that she hassomehow failed, but also her
ambivalence about being aparent.
And there's this moment.
And so she does a lot of stuffabout sort of gender, both in
Nigeria, but I think just aboutsort of gender expectations in
general.
(19:19):
And there's this moment in thestory, and I read this story
probably a month or two ago,where she, the baby she has is a
son, and she just sort of thinkswith dread about him as an adult
and But like the likelihood ofhim as a man inflicting sort of
harm on other people.
But it's just a moment where shetakes something like the
(19:40):
motherhood and she, with suchhonesty and such just surprise,
like will say these things.
So...
All these stories, they takethese really interesting turns
that you wouldn't expect.
There's another one where anadult daughter is living with
her mother.
Her parents are alreadydivorced, and the mother, on a
rainy night, is driving, and shehits and kills a young woman.
And so the mother just fallsapart, and finally you start to
(20:02):
realize, and this is giving alittle bit away, but not too
much, that she's convinced thatnow she's going to be punished,
that her daughter is going tosomehow be taken care of.
And the mother just sort ofbecomes this weird ghost
wandering around the house, eventhough she's just it's her
grief.
But but the way the storiesmove, they all move in these
surprising directions.
So I loved this collection.
And I believe she might have anovel coming out in the next
(20:24):
year or two.
Pemi Aguda, Ghost Roots.
Strong recommendation.
Yeah.
So the next one is kind of anoldie that I didn't know this
book existed until my editor,who obviously I think has good
taste because he's my editor, heposted about this book on social
media.
I was like, what is this book?
It's called The Lives of Saintsby Nancy Lamon, I think is how
(20:47):
you say it.
It came out in the mid-80s, andhe just posted this love letter
to this book.
I was like, never heard of this.
It took a while to find it.
Luckily, the Mid-Hudson LibrarySystem, is amazing to shout out
to the Kindergarten Library, butalso the fact that they can get
books from...
And that's where I got it.
And it's a short novel.
(21:07):
It's like maybe 150 pages.
And if you look at the cover andthe title, it looks kind of like
if any of you remember thosesort of Ann Tyler books from the
80s, like The AccidentalTourist, which...
not to talk trash about AnnTyler, but she's, she's a great
writer, but it doesn't, it felta little, it looked, I was like,
and it's called The Lives ofSaints.
I was, I was surprised.
(21:30):
that this was something that myeditor recommended until I
started reading it.
It is such a sharp book.
It feels like a...
It takes place in New Orleans inthe 80s.
The narrator is a woman namedLouise who's just returned from
college in the Northeast.
And it's this New Orleans that'sboth kind of wealthy but also
just decrepit and falling apart.
And there's...
(21:51):
It is really a book...
If you love a book that has anamazing voice, this book...
It's the beginning of the book.
She's at a wedding andeveryone's having a nervous
breakdown.
The bride's weeping.
The groom is weeping.
All the parents are weeping.
People are like drunk andthrowing.
It's just, but there's thisweird deadpan to the voice.
You're like, what is happening?
And yet it's so smart andstrange.
And there's this reallyinteresting rhythm and cadence
(22:11):
to her writing.
It's all these really shortchapters.
And she is, she basicallyreturned and she's not really
sure what to do next.
And she's in love with this mannamed Claude, who's one of the
more interesting characters I'veread in books.
recent fiction who is reallywarm and smart, but there's this
real sadness and damage to himand the self-destructive
quality.
And so it's really about hersort of this hopeless love story
(22:33):
with him as, as this community,their part is sort of whirling
and falling apart around them.
And it was interesting when,before I read, I was looking at
the blurbs on the back andthey're like hilarious.
And it is, but it also is adeeply sad book.
Some things happen that are,there's such tragedy in the
book, but I also, I, I love abook that is funny-sad.
I think books, I thinkoftentimes humor and sadness are
(22:55):
really close cousins, right?
And she is such a funny writerand the voice is such a smart
take of this world.
And yet...
There's some real tragedy andthere's real heartache in this
story.
So I thought that book wasreally, really well done.
I also think because there aremoments where really difficult
things happen, she never movesto a maudlin place.
(23:16):
Like she never goes to, there'snever sentimentality.
But really it's the rhythm ofher sentences.
It's the way she uses language.
It is the absurdity that justsort of highlights this world.
And it's interesting becausethis story about this community
in which everyone knows everyonefeels almost old-fashioned like
a Jane Austen novel wheneveryone talking about
everyone's business, but thenthe way the language structures,
(23:37):
functions and the way she sortof, the way she's able to
compress ideas into like onereally surprising, strange image
sort of feels really modern.
So it's a really, so I thoughtit was such a, it was such a
singular book, weird in all thegood ways.
So if you like kind of weird, ifyou like a Joy Williams or
someone like that, whose voice Ithink is amazing, I think this
is a book you should read.
SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
Well, this was really fun.
Thank you for talking us throughall these books and taking me to
her on the
SPEAKER_00 (24:02):
bookshelf.
Sure.
Really great.
I'm so happy to do it.
Hopefully, I'll be here againsoon with more book rambling.
Oh, Tom will be back.
SPEAKER_03 (24:11):
He's going to return every quarter to tell us what
he's read recently that weshould know about.
I mean, he calls it bookrambling.
And honestly, the way hedescribes the craft, I could
just listen to him book rambleall day.
I don't know, maybe we can callthis segment Book rambling with
Tom or Tom's book ramble.
I don't know.
I was thinking of just callingit Tom's shelf, but sort of a
(24:34):
ring to it.
Anyways, I'm just glad that hewas here in the show and I'm
glad you were here to listen toit.
By the way, there is a fourthselection.
Tom has a fourth selection.
It may be even the best one.
But I'm going to save it for thepremium subscribers at the Jiffy
Supreme level.
That's right.
You can subscribe to thenewsletter, upgrade to the Jiffy
Supreme.
(24:54):
It's an audio exclusive, andit's worth it.
Also, I've got Maureen's cozyreading tips over there, too.
It's just a bonus for Supremersonly, and you can upgrade for$5
a month to$50 a year.
I'll put a link in the shownotes to upgrade.
It's all very exciting.
I also have Tom's reading listin the show notes as well.
And hey, if you read any ofthese books I'd love to know
(25:17):
what you think.
DM me at James Cave onInstagram.
Also, DM Tom.
Follow Tom on Instagram, too.
He's at Tom Grattan,T-O-M-G-R-A-T-T-A-N.
I promise you'll be glad youdid.
It was really fun.
Thanks for listening.
Oh, one more thing.
Here's what else you need toknow today.
(25:40):
As I mentioned earlier, it's thestart of spring.
So with the closing of the CozyMap, I'm very excited.
We're starting a new series.
We're calling it the HudsonValley Mud Index of 2025.
I mean, they're saying it's themud season right now.
Apparently, the snow is melting,the fresh huts are rising, and
the trails are getting soggythroughout the valley.
(26:00):
But I'm not seeing too much mudright now.
Apparently, we're in a bit of adry spell.
So we're going to take a reallyclose-up look at where the mud
is and try to find some of theHudson Valley's best And I'm
also going to be launching ourJiffy Mart soon.
This is the online store of theJiffy.
It'll be very exciting.
Stay tuned for that.
That does it for this episode ofthe Jiffy Podcast.
(26:22):
If you liked it, share it with afriend or someone you love.
If you didn't like it, you couldshare it with your enemy.
I think either way, it reallyhelps.
Or you could even leave a reviewif the spirit moves you.
I'm just glad you made it thisfar in the episode all the way
to the end.
Thanks for listening.
Until next time, I'll see youover on the Instagram feed.
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