The Joe Rooz Show with guest: Joshua Spatha **SATURDAY SPOTLIGHT** (Ep. 112) - The Joe Rooz Show

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(01:48):
Alrighty folks, welcome.
This is Joe Roos,
and we are broadcasting tonight live
from the Asylum Studios
from the pimple on the backside of Texas,
the beautiful city of Eagle Pass,
and bringing you the best quality talk radio we could muster
without all the bluster.

(02:09):
This
is The Joe Ruse Show.
Okay.
Well,
we have
quite a bit
to talk about tonight.

(02:31):
First hour, we're gonna be getting through some of the news, some of the updates, some of the stories
of the day.
And second hour, we have a special guest who'll be joining us,
Joshua Spatha.
Spatha. Hopefully, we're saying it right.
And he'll forgive me, he'll correct me, I'm sure. But, folks, this is, some important show tonight. Got a lot to talk about in this first hour.

(02:56):
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off.
Alright.
Well,
we got a lot to talk about tonight, folks.
It's gonna be a serious conversation that we're gonna have.
It's a lot of
lot of interesting things going on in the world and,

(05:07):
very serious things, very dangerous things, and we're gonna get into that in just a minute. Folks, wanna remind you to head over to our website, joeroos.com.
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(05:37):
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We all missed out. Well, a lot of us missed out on on Bitcoin when it first came out, and it was super cheap, like, maybe $5 a coin. And now you're looking at a $100,000
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(10:23):
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(10:43):
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(11:04):
we do a show.
Alright. Now with, all of that said and done, to all of the folks
that are watching right now on Twitch,
YouTube,
and x,
we are just about ready to say goodbye. So before we do that, I'm just gonna tell you one more thing.
We do have the guest coming up at the, second hour, so that's about 08:00 or so.

(11:27):
And, we are looking forward to, having a great conversation
with, Joshua.
I'm gonna say his last name wrong, so I'm not gonna say it. Joshua
Spatha.
So we're looking forward to having him on the show tonight.
A missionary,
a writer,
and, you know, just seems like a really nice guy, great guy to talk to, to learn something from him tonight. We're excited for it. And then don't forget, coming up on the twentieth, we have, we have another guest coming on the show. And then next week, we have Andy Campbell coming back on Monday, which is gonna be great. We're looking forward to that to finish up our conversation from last night.

(12:03):
And, so it's been a busy busy busy busy busy week for us, and, we're excited about that. We're very, very happy to be here with everybody.
Alright. So with all of that said, we are gonna say goodbye to the folks on YouTube,
Twitter,
or x,
and Twitch. And, hopefully, we'll see you on Rumble. If not, we will catch you tomorrow night at 7PM again. Alright? Talk to you soon.

(12:30):
Alright. Well,
here we are.
And,
you know, it's
a very confusing time right now that, that we're we're living in.

(12:50):
You know,
it is absolutely no secret
whatsoever that I am a a supporter of Donald Trump.
I've been a supporter of Donald Trump since 2016 when he, when he first ran.
I support the president.
I think the president has done a fantastic job,

(13:11):
especially in the areas of the economy,
especially in the areas,
of of the tariffs and and,
restoring,
American trade,
American manufacturing,
opening up the energy, make, bringing us back to energy independence.
Not not there yet, but we're getting there.

(13:33):
With everything he's done on the border,
effectively shutting the border down is, like, 98
something percent secured at this
point. I loved the idea
when he was running

(13:55):
of no foreign wars,
not getting entangled in,
overseas warfare,
not getting us into
any more conflicts that really have no bearing on us whatsoever.

(14:16):
The whole America First agenda,
I think, is, it it it's
that's what we voted for.
That's exactly what we voted for.
So I'm a little confused, and I'm a little disturbed

(14:37):
by the fact that we are
about this close
to World War three.
We are this close
to a conflict
with
Iran.

(15:03):
All because
of Israel.
Now don't get me wrong. I
as a Bible believing Christian,
I know that Israel

(15:25):
is God's chosen people.
I understand that.
Spiritually, I understand it.
Spiritually, I love Israel. I I
God's people.
The Bible says very clearly, I will bless them that bless thee. I will curse them that curseth thee, and he said that to Abraham who is the father of

(15:51):
the modern day Jewish people.
But politically speaking,
I cannot agree with what Israel is doing.
Benjamin Netanyahu has been in power for

(16:14):
decades.
I remember him
back in the nineties
going before congress, telling congress
that
Iran is two weeks away from a nuclear bomb, that Iran is a week away from a nuclear bomb, days away from a nuclear bomb.

(16:35):
It's been like that since the nineteen nineties.
Now I am not in any way suggesting
that that,
Iran isn't pursuing any kind of a nuclear,
armament. I can't say that. I don't know that
for sure. But I'm,
you know, my opinion on that is that, yeah, I think they are.

(16:56):
And they might actually even have it.
But this is not our fight.
This is not
what we voted for.
Folks,

(17:17):
I mean, literally,
president Trump said today that
The United States could
very well
strike Israel,
Iran
by Thursday this week.

(17:40):
He's already ordered
nonessential personnel
out of the embassies.
He's already recalled several,
non essentials
from other
regions around
the Middle East.

(18:09):
And then today, we find ourselves
basically
directly engaged in military action against Iran.
This isn't, again, this isn't what
America first is.
I'm sorry. I I I

(18:30):
I can't get on that bandwagon.
This neocon
globalist
bandwagon,
I I can't.
This is very, very quickly escalating.

(18:53):
I'm gonna share a couple of posts that the president made
on his truth social.
And this is why I say it it gets it gets this is why I say that we are engaged.
First of all, container not container ships, but, the, refueling vessels.

(19:16):
30 of the 50
refueling vessel vessels that The United States has is on its way
to The Middle East. There are now two carrier groups.
12 vessels in each carrier group.
24
warships.
American warships

(19:37):
are at the Middle East right now.
Earlier today, Donald Trump posted this.
We now have complete and total control of the skies over Iran.
Iran had
good sky trackers and other defensive equipment and plenty of it, but it doesn't compare to American made, conceived,

(20:02):
and manufactured stuff.
Nobody does it better
than the good old
USA.
I want you to notice that what he said there.
We
have complete and total control
of the skies over Iran.

(20:23):
We.
And then following that,
after he posted that message,
he posted another message.
He posted another message that was

(20:44):
basically directed
at the, the
Iranian supreme leader.
We know exactly where the so called supreme leader is hiding.
He is an easy target,
but is safe there. We are not gonna take him out,
kill,
or at least

(21:04):
not for now.
But we don't want missiles shot at civilians or American soldiers. Our patience is wearing thin.
Thank you for your attention
to this matter.
And then
he just went on a tear this morning,
and then

(21:29):
the president sent this message.
Unconditional
surrender.
Now the administration
gave Iran sixty days
to agree to, to a deal

(21:51):
whereby they wouldn't pursue nuclear weapons. They would give up their nuclear,
programs.
They didn't capitulate to it.
Now on day 61,
here we are.
Well, it's a few days removed from day 61, but day 61 is when all this started.

(22:19):
So I just I just I'm just trying to emphasize the fact that, you know, this is very, very serious.
This is very dangerous.
The world is closer right now to a nuclear
exchange,
I think closer than it was

(22:40):
during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
I don't know if this is just a flex,
just a demonstration
of
the air power, the strength of The United States.

(23:05):
But I got this knot literally in the pit of my stomach.
That the president's serious.
You know, president Trump is one of those is one of those men that, you know, man, he tells he says it like it is,
and he follows through on what he does,
on what he says.

(23:32):
And I just don't know why.
Why are we going why why are we going into armed conflict with Iran?
This isn't our fight.
The story is now that there's a a nuclear facility that that Iran built,
pretty deep underground underneath some mountain range,

(23:55):
and, of course, it can't be taken out by,
the Israeli military. So, you know, they're they're asking us to use, like, the bunker busters and and,
and and those types of of, of munitions to to
to level this mountain on top of this facility that's supposedly there,

(24:17):
which is supposed which is supposedly a huge facility that nobody knew about before today.
Now I don't know if the president's getting
bad intelligence, false intelligence.
You know?
I I I don't know.

(24:44):
And, again, I'm gonna go back to what I said earlier. I am a Trump supporter. I I I do I believe in the president. I believe in what he's doing,
except this.
Now already on,
you know, the infighting going on, you have,

(25:05):
Laura Loomer, who I who I have a lot of respect for. I think she's I think she's a an incredible journalist,
calling out
guys like Joe Rogan and
Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson, and the president took a shot at Tucker Carlson earlier today.

(25:26):
You know, I'm not I'm not putting myself in their category. Trust me. I'm not. I know I'm nowhere near that.
But,
basically, the what they're saying is is that we're
because we disagree
with the direction that the president's going with this,
that somehow we're not MAGA.

(25:46):
You
know, MAGA is not a cult like the Democrat party is.
You know?
And MAGA, you
think.
You have your own opinions.

(26:08):
You can talk.
You can express your opinions, and you can dissent.
Folks, this is bad stuff.
Dangerous stuff.

(26:37):
And and just just for reference, I mean, Saturday, Pakistani defense minister
Kawaja Asif called for all Muslim nations to collectively join the fight against Israel
after Israel launched the preemptive strike against Iranian nuclear facilities on Friday.

(26:58):
Saturday,
Beijing
announced
that it's backing Iran.
Iran also threatened to attack US bases over the weekend.

(27:25):
And if you remember back back in March
back in March, I I I'm trying to remember the date.
Sometime back at the March, sometime, almost April,
Donald Trump was on a a an interview,
a telephone interview with NBC,

(27:46):
and he said if they don't make a deal, they'll be bombing.
It'll be bombing the likes of which they have never seen before.
There's a chance that if they don't make a deal, then I will do secondary tariffs on them on them like I did four years ago.
Now

(28:09):
Here we are.
We have a military buildup on the border.
Not the border. I'm sorry. We have a military buildup.
I was just reading something that said border.
We have a military buildup overseas in The Middle East.

(28:30):
We have conflict going on right now between Israel and Iran.
We're on the verge of getting involved in this.
You have China
saying that they're gonna back Iran.
You have the foreign minister for, for China
openly saying that they're already at a stage of undeclared war.

(28:59):
You have all these protests and and, riots going on around the country.
This is very dangerous people.
I can't say it enough.

(29:26):
And like I mentioned earlier, on Monday,
aviation tracking websites reported that dozens of US air force tankers took off from The US and headed toward Europe,
presumably to, you know, be refueling
American aircraft,
maybe Israeli aircraft. I I don't know.

(29:50):
But this is gonna escalate. You have Pakistan.
You have India,
two nuclear armed powers.

(30:10):
Then you had the representative from Al Qaeda
over the weekend get on get on TV and call for jihad
saying that Muslims everywhere need to rise up.

(30:33):
Again,
I'm I I gotta say it again. I love president Trump. I love
the things that he's done domestically. I I love the things that he's doing,
as as far as the economy goes,
internationally.
But

(30:53):
one of the main campaign promises was no
foreign
wars,
and here we are.
Here we are.

(31:19):
Like, why I I don't understand why he's listening to people like Lindsey Graham.
Lindsey Graham.
Here's, here's Lindsey Graham on Fox News.
Just listen to this.

(31:40):
Carolina senator Lindsey Graham. Senator,
you know, you were praising the president for his patience and seeking peace
and going back to the table and back to the table. You you can't say that he didn't try to give them an out, an opportunity,
knowing what the eventual outcome was gonna be.
And, you know, he said, I told them it's a shame. It's a waste of human life. They can't have a nuclear weapon,

(32:05):
and everyone should immediately evacuate Tehran. How do you interpret that, sir?
Well, I take president at his word. He gave Iran Iran sixty days to do a deal on '60 the sixty first day.
We are where we are. There's two ways to stop Iran from having a nuclear weapon. One is diplomacy.
The other is force.

(32:25):
I think the headline tonight is we're moving into the land of force.
I think Iran has allowed themselves,
to be fooled into thinking they could manipulate Trump.
Same old tactics with the wrong guy when it comes to Trump. To all those who voted for president Trump and got him in office,

(32:45):
god bless you. He's the right guy at the right time. These are dangerous times. Why do we say no nuclear,
weapon for Iran? They're a religious theocracy.
They're built around the extreme version of Islam. They wanna destroy Saudi Arabia and the Sunni branch of Islam. They wanna kill all the Jews in Israel and come after us. That's what their whole country is built upon, a theocratic view that there's nobody else in the world but them when it comes to worshiping god. If they had a nuclear weapon, they would use it. Israel believes that. I believe that. So here's the the task at hand.

(33:22):
Be all in president Trump in helping Israel eliminate the nuclear threat. If we need to provide bombs to Israel, provide bombs. If we need to fly planes with Israel,
do joint operations. But here's the bigger question.
Wouldn't the world be better off if the IOT was went away and replaced by something better? Wouldn't Iran be better off? Tom Cotton is coming on. He made a great observation. The endless war is Iran. Since 1979,

(33:48):
they've been attacking the entire region,
chanting death to America, death to Israel since their very founding.
It's time to close the chapter on the Iranian Ayatollah and his henchmen. Let's close that chapter soon and start a new chapter in the Mideast, one of tolerance, hope, and peace.
But the Trump doctrine seems to be very clear tonight, senator, and that

(34:10):
Alright.
So here's
this
war pig,
Lindsey Graham.
And South Carolina, you need to primary this guy. You need to get rid of him. It it's time. I I
this this is the same guy who led the march into Iraq or at least one of the guys that led the march into Iraq, an endless

(34:30):
war with where we lost
blood, treasure,
dignity.
And now the same thing,
the same exact narrative is getting thrown out there that, you know, we have to go in and we have to stop them from their weapons of mass destruction.

(34:50):
Well, there weren't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq,
which we found out after the fact, after we lost a lot of
blood and treasure. And
and now here we are again
beating the war drum,
looking at another endless war. I mean, for crying out loud, the European Union has a has a had a plan has a plan in place

(35:14):
for thirty year war with Russia.
Endless
nonstop
war.
And listen, and you heard what Lindsey Graham said. This isn't all and and I'm gonna paraphrase what he said, or I'm gonna I'm gonna, you know, translate it for you. This isn't only about, you know,

(35:41):
about preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. This is about regime change.
I mean, apparently, diplomacy is a speed bump for Graham.

(36:02):
And you heard what he said. He said, the time has come for America to go all in to help Israel eliminate
the nuclear threat. What does that mean?
More bombs,
more blood,
more American involvement,
more money,
more risk

(36:22):
to
Americans.
And I love how he he he throws the nod to
those of us that voted, the 77,000,000
who voted for president Trump
to put him in office.

(36:43):
We did that based upon the promise that no more endless wars,
no more foreign involvement.
Yeah. Here we
are. Here we are.

(37:05):
This is not our fight.
It's not our fight. I'm sorry. This let Israel take care of it
the way they see fit. This is not our fight.
You know, it's not Lindsey Graham's children that are gonna be going

(37:28):
to war.
I doubt many of the children of those 535
representatives up in, Washington DC
will be sending their children onto war. I doubt very many of them will.
They'll find a way out of it.
No. It'll be your children. It'll be my children that'll have to bear the burden of this.

(37:54):
A war that we're not involved in,
that we have no interest in,
just like Ukraine.
This is bad stuff, folks. This is really bad fuck. Really bad stuff.

(38:21):
On Tuesday, that would be today, president Trump was prepared to meet with his national security council in the Situation Room to discuss whether it to strike Iran or not.
According to Axios, Trump is seriously considering a strike on Iran's nuclear facilities.
US officials
told Axios that The US is focusing on Fordo
plant, a nuclear facility under a mountain, and it would take a US made bunker busting weapon to destroy the plant.

(38:52):
And president Trump posted this.
Iran should have signed the deal. I told them to sign.
What a shame. A waste of human life. Simply stated, Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. I said it over and over again. Everyone should immediately
evacuate
Tehran,

(39:14):
which, if you don't know, is the capital of of Iran.
Folks, if this if this kicks off

(39:43):
god, I pray it doesn't.
We're looking
at World War three, nuclear exchange,

(40:03):
possibly millions of lives lost. You
also know that the president was at, the g seven summit up in Canada,
and,

(40:24):
Newsmax,
European correspondent Alex Salvi
reported that the g seven leaders are preparing a statement,
for de escalation in The Middle East, including declaring Israel's right to self defense and rejecting Iran's path to a nuclear weapon.
President Trump
has not signed off on the statement.

(40:45):
And, and and some Trump Trump officials told
CBS News that he has no intention to.
Salvi posted this up on x,
new. G seven leaders are preparing a joint statement on the Israel Iran conflict, calls on both sides to deescalate,
says Israel has the right to defend itself, says Iran can never have a nuclear weapon,

(41:08):
and Trump has not yet
signed off on the statement.

(41:30):
So Trump,
president Trump asked
or let me let me say that, back that up.
Tehran
has asked
president Trump's allies in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Oman to press his influence on Iran for an immediate ceasefire.

(41:51):
Now the ceasefire,
the way they the way they're looking at it is,
basically, the ceasefire tends to be just attempts to stall,
military action to, you know, give them a chance to regroup.
So I doubt very much that they're looking for a ceasefire. President Trump made it clear, no ceasefires. It's just

(42:14):
unconditional surrender.
Iran is willing to be flexible in its nuclear talks if a ceasefire is reached. One of the Iranian sources said the Gulf states are deeply concerned

(42:35):
the conflict will spin out of control, a Gulf source close to the government officials told Reuters.
Qatar, Oman, and Saudi Arabia have all appealed to Washington,
to
to press Israel to agree to a ceasefire and to resume talks with Tehran
toward a nuclear deal.
But we all saw president Trump's response to that, and that was unlimited,

(42:59):
unconditional
surrender.
And remember the post that, that that I showed you earlier that Donald Trump made

(43:24):
where he said unconditional
surrender,
and, you know, he also made it, clear that,
well, not clear, but he suggested
The US was, ready to assassinate
Iranian supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
We know exactly where the so called supreme leader is hiding. He is an easy target, but is safe there. We're not gonna take him out or kill him, at least not for now.

(43:48):
But we don't want missiles shot at civilians or American soldiers. Our patience is wearing thin. Thank you for your attention to this matter. If you remember that post,
that I showed you
a little bit ago was this one. This one.
This whole thing is gonna be spinning out of control.

(44:10):
And if he's right
or if he follows the timeline that he's put in place
or if he sticks with the
or or with the with the administration said possibly by Thursday.
Folks, I don't know what to tell you.

(44:32):
All I know is this. I support the president.
I think he's wrong on this.
I think he's deadly wrong on this.
I wanna be proven wrong myself. I don't wanna you know? I have no problem with saying, hey. Look. I made a mistake. You know? Maybe there is some,
you know, behind the scenes thing going on that we don't know about, but I I don't know.

(45:02):
But this is what the globalists want. They want this perpetual war, this endless state of war in this country, in this world.
And just like after World War two,
if this thing actually kicks off

(45:23):
and there actually is
a full on
war, and if even a limited nuclear exchange takes place,
when all is said and done,
when all the dust settles,
you're gonna be looking at a completely
new world order

(45:45):
just like the globalists want.
And folks, trust me, no one's gonna come out as the winner in
this. This is gonna be devastating all around.
I don't know if they're
hoping for an,

(46:06):
an understanding of mutually assured destruction.
Remember that doctrine that Ronald Reagan held to very dearly? President Trump holds to that as well, but
if it does take place, I don't I at this stage, though, honestly, I don't you can't you can't think like that with
Iran and and, you know, Muslim countries like that because

(46:28):
they don't value life
like you and I do.
And rest assured that if this escalates into a full on conflict, they will use nuclear weapons if they have them.

(46:50):
You know, a Christian has a God that died for them. Muslims have a God that they have to die for.
It's a big difference. It's a different worldview.
All I could tell you folks is that this is not gonna end well. No matter how no matter what happens, this is not gonna end well.

(47:14):
We'll find out on Thursday, I guess.
However,
there is some hope in this. I don't want you to feel like it's gonna be a total,
a a total,

(47:35):
Alright. Sorry about that.
Our guest, just sent me a text. I just saw that.
There is some there is a bright side to this. There's there's a hope.
Representative,
Thomas Massie
is
introducing
some legislation

(47:58):
called the bipartisan
war resolution,
which,
if passed, will prohibit American involvement in the Israel Iran war.
Again
and this is what Thomas Massie had to say, and it just echoing what I said earlier.
This is not our war, but if it were, Congress must decide such matters according to our constitution,

(48:22):
which is very, very true. Only Congress and I and I've said this before. I've said this under previous administrations,
whether it was Republican or Democrat.
The the the the I think the executive branch on this matter has a little bit too much authority,
or or,

(48:42):
I'm trying trying to think of the word. I can't remember the word.
Well, just basically that the I think that the oak the,
the executive branch has has too much
freedom on this one.
Alright?
I don't think the executive branch could should or or could be able to start a conflict

(49:06):
or take part in a conflict without congressional approval.
So Thomas Massie says, this is not our war, but if it were, Congress must decide such matters according to our constitution.
So I am introducing a bipartisan war powers resolution tomorrow to prohibit our involvement.
I invite all members of Congress to cosponsor

(49:28):
this resolution.
And, it's getting some play. You have,
California Democratic representative
Ro Khanna,
responded to Massey's,
post by noting in a post that he is proud to co lead this bipartisan war powers resolution.
AOC is on board with this. Michigan Democratic representative Rashida Tlaib,

(49:49):
signed on on this.
Tlaib declared in the post, I look forward to supporting this war powers resolution.
Went on to say further, the American people aren't falling forward again. We were lied to about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq that killed millions and forever changed lives. It's unconstitutional
for Trump. Now I I the only my only
change to that would be

(50:10):
it's unconscionable for any president to go to war without a vote in congress, not just Donald Trump.
But there are others in in
in,
in in in the house that are rejecting this.
Representative Mike Lawler of New York said,
that, he's not on board. He said if AOC and Massey are a yes, that's a good bet that I'll be a no. Iran, China, Russia, and North Korea are not our friends or allies.

(50:38):
And by the way, neither is Israel, technically.
Technically, Israel is not our ally.
We don't have any treaties with Israel, just as a point of fact.
A nuclear Iran will seek to eradicate Israel
and all but ensure World War three. Well, that's where we are now,
representative Lawler.
We are teetering on the edge

(51:00):
of World War three.
And I can't believe I'm gonna agree with with a moron like Tim Kaine, but he said the American people have no interest in sending service members to fight another forever war in The Middle East.

(51:21):
And I agree with that
wholeheartedly,
and I hope you do too.
I hope you do too. And if you do, pick up that phone, call your representative, tell him to jump on board with Thomas Massey's
bill
to limit the the the the the war powers
of the American president.

(51:43):
Thomas Massie's bill, bipartisan war powers resolution.
Please call your representative,
get behind this,
and get them to sign on to this. Alright, folks. So our guest is waiting in the, waiting room. So, we're gonna take a short break here. I'm gonna buzz them in, and then we'll come back in just a quick minute. Folks, this is The Joe Russo.

(52:04):
Don't forget to like,
follow, and subscribe
to this show, and make sure
you share it with your friends, your family, and your followers. Help us to spread the show around, get our message out there, and, we'll be back right after this. Just stay with us.

(53:50):
Alright, folks. We are back.
This is The Joe Ruse Show. It is great to be with you on, second hour. First hour is out of the way.
Heavy subjects talking about the, conflict overseas.
But, joining us now is Joshua
Spatha, if I'm saying it right, and I think you have to turn your microphone on, bud.

(54:16):
Little icon at the bottom there, you got it.
Sorry about that. That's alright. So, hey, Bernie. How you feeling?
I'm a little stiff. Yeah.
I don't think you can see the the black and blue and and the red in my eyes, but,
hopefully,
Internet magic washes it all away. No.

(54:37):
No. No. You can you can you can plainly see it, bud. So for for the folks that are that are watching and listening, they don't understand the reference to Bernie, Joshua sent me a text,
during the last hour saying that the show won't turn into a Weekend at Bernie's episode. So,
so so you what happened?
Oh, man. One of those,

(54:58):
small projects that turned into a much more involved project that turned into an emergency room visit. So Oh my gosh. I was,
under under a vehicle and, the jack decided to give out
and 5,800
pounds came down on me. So Good night.

(55:18):
What?
You know what? It it's that I hate to say it because it's gonna sound terrible, but it reminds me of this meme that I saw,
when, it's a it's a picture of this, of this terrified look on the face of somebody working under their car when they hear the the harbor freight car jack starting to creak while

(55:39):
you know? So
it really did I'm sorry, man. But that's what it made me think of when you saw that. Oh, that's too best to that's it's funny. Fear is real. Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. See, I don't wanna say it's funny, but to me, it's funny. I'm sorry. I have I'm just I have one of those sick sense of humor. So it's like No. I was, I was cracking jokes while in the ER, so you're fine. Yeah. Well, I know I know what you mean though because I'll I'll tell you last,

(56:05):
two months ago,
I was cooking in in my kitchen here, and,
I was moving a pot of boiling water from the stove to the sink, and I didn't realize that my dog Charlie was laying on the mat right next to me.
And when I slid over and I kicked him,
I jerked back, and the water came like that, and they came over the other end and went right down on my bare foot.

(56:29):
And I had,
pretty severe burns. I I had had a miss work for a week because I couldn't put a shoe on.
And,
the whole time I was at the emergency room,
same deal. Same. I was just cracking jokes to the whole thing. So, I guess that's the way some of us deal with,
with with trauma.
Yeah. If you don't laugh, you'll cry. Right? Exactly.

(56:50):
Exactly. So, Joshua,
so why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and, and what you're up to, and and then I'll start grilling you.
Yeah.
Well, majored
in college,
in anthropology,
studied historical geology and cosmology. I was really interested in

(57:11):
studying origin theories and, you know, kind of the big big picture questions of how we all got here and
why.
After,
four years of that, then I
decided to get kind of
the the balance out the equation, get the other side of the story and was gonna go to seminary for four years.

(57:33):
But at the last minute,
funding for the scholarship that I qualified for fell through. And long story short, I ended
up in foreign missions instead.
So I've I've been serving in that capacity for about the last twenty years,
training and and taking teams overseas,
all over, but primarily the the Muslim world.

(57:56):
My family and I are actually preparing to to move long term to Central Asia right now.
But my my interest in,
culture
and, you know, history
and the interactions
of and interplay of
of faith
and,
culture and society,

(58:18):
has has always intrigued me.
A bit of a of a geek for,
the ancient Near East,
Babylon
and the Assyrians and,
all that jazz. So,
unfortunately, that's not actually what I got to study in
university. We we studied,

(58:40):
primarily early American,
civilizations,
at the university I went to for anthropology, but,
but it's just a a a huge interest for me.
And then when we, you know, get into, you know, modern modern era, a question for me then was,
you know, what are

(59:00):
what are the cultural trends
and and
narratives
which which we have believed that have kind of brought us
to the the current
cultural and societal state that we're at.
What has been
the pros and cons of that?
Where
where are we kinda headed as a result. And so I worked under a guy,

(59:24):
for about eight years where we were studying historical and cultural and societal
cycles.
So everything from generational cycles, socioeconomic
cycles, to
geopolitical cycles,
and kinda looking at the big stretch of
of time
and history,
what we could learn from history,

(59:46):
and where we kinda find ourselves
in the the current cycle.
Well,
that's like,
there was there was something I wanted to ask you when you first started talking about anthropology.
But you but you see, you screwed me up, dude, because

(01:00:06):
yeah. I had to Sorry. I gave too long winded of an answer. No. Not too long winded of an answer, but you you jumped you answered, like, my first three questions
in that one shot.
Preemptively.
Yeah. Preemptively, but that's alright. So now I'm a little flustered here, but we're good. We're good.
So but okay. So when when would when did you realize though that the, that Western worldview wasn't really enough and that there was really something deeper missing?

(01:00:31):
Yeah. I think
I
I had a strong suspicion from a very early age just due to my own,
personal experience.
I had a a bit of
of a supernatural experience when I was a young boy. I was about seven years old.
And
so

(01:00:52):
I I never
I never really bought into the materialistic
world view. Right. I always felt there was something else there, but, of course, what that something else was was a a big question mark that that
warranted
an honest investigation.
And, you know, true true to the,

(01:01:15):
scientific method, you know, I I felt it needed that that investigation
need to be intellectually honest and and follow wherever the evidence may lead.
And so
I don't think I was ever sold on the materialistic worldview,
but I was certainly open to it. Like, I I was open to being convinced of it. And that's that's really why I went to university to give that worldview a fair shake. Give me your best edits. Give you give me your best argument.

(01:01:44):
And university
did not do that.
It was
laughably
weak arguments. I mean, as as a freshman and sophomore
in college, I was picking holes in my professor's arguments. You know, it's just it was not
an airtight argument whatsoever.
But, again,

(01:02:05):
skepticism is easy. Like, you can be skeptical of of anything. True. Yeah. But but being able to then come up with a better argument,
a more convincing argument, that that takes a lot more work and effort.
So I I did that. I I did the homework. I I did the research and and wanted to come to a

(01:02:26):
sound,
rational,
logical,
conclusion.
But I I would say,
my my personal experience, which anecdote accounts for, you know, nothing. But,
in terms of the broader culture,
what I in in the book, I I kinda trace back kind of our our current paradigm and trajectory

(01:02:49):
can kinda be traced back to the enlightenment period of seventeen hundreds.
And and that began as an explosion of curiosity in a million different directions,
in natural science and philosophy,
and in spirituality.
Seances were just as common as, you know, scientific discussions

(01:03:09):
during the Enlightenment.
And so I I think as a culture, as a society,
the Enlightenment really shaped the modern mindset. Yeah.
And
by the end of it, by the tail end of the Enlightenment,
the spiritual questions
and spiritual
curiosity had kind of been

(01:03:29):
put to the side,
almost swept under the rug even, and we kinda then
kind of endeavored on this hyper myopic focus on
naturalistic
explanations,
that that science
can can and naturalism can explain
everything
Mhmm. In the universe that we encounter.

(01:03:51):
And I think as a society,
that narrative gained steam
and was fairly compelling
early on
because our science wasn't that good. We had a lot of theory. We had a lot of hypothesis.
We hadn't done a lot of data collection yet.
And as then as we began to collect the data,

(01:04:13):
the odds
stacked against, you know, the naturalistic
explanations
more and more and more
to, yeah, to where it's I mean,
this point, again, a hundred years ago, this wasn't true.
Even
sixty, seventy years ago, this wasn't true. But definitely today,

(01:04:33):
if if you are a naturalist,
if you
honestly believe that everything that we experience in the universe today
can can be explained by naturalistic
causes,
you
your worldview requires
as much, if not more, faith
than atheistic worldview.

(01:04:53):
Agree. And I don't say that disparagingly.
I just say that matter of factly,
that the evidence
is
is not in line.
All of Darwin's
theories, all of his theses that he put forth in his book, he didn't
put forth his hypothesis with evidence. He said, here's my hypothesis,

(01:05:14):
and if it's true, this is what evidence we will find in the future.
Not only did we not find the evidence that he predicted, but we found the opposite of the evidence that he predicted. That's a great point. He thought
he thought that, you know, the cell was just a simple glob of jelly.
Well, it's not only not simple, it's
unimaginably,
unfathomably

(01:05:35):
complete.
It's
mind boggling how complex the cell is
to such a degree that many staunch
atheists,
you know, were
wrestling with with their worldview,
not as a result of scripture, not as a result of, you know, faith, but as a result of science. Mhmm. The DNA investigations

(01:05:56):
alone,
turned a lot of
atheists or agnostics,
back to the possibility,
of intelligent design
with, Anthony Flew being, you know, a major case of that. He was kind of the the champion
of atheism prior to Richard Dawkins.

(01:06:18):
And and late in his life, he converted to deism,
almost entirely on account of the scientific investigation into DNA.
So, I mean, we're just at this point where we're we're not ignorant.
We have a lot of information.
It's it's not,
that we that we don't have information. It's that the information that we do have

(01:06:41):
is not favorable to the naturalistic
viewpoint.
And so at at at some point then in our society sorry. This is another long winded answer to a question. I hope I agree with you on this. At some point
in some point our in our society, we we got to a point where,
the cat was was kinda let out of the bag.

(01:07:02):
There's been I mean, I I I went through anthropology
in in in in university
and, you know, there there is
there is a strong front,
a a a PR campaign, if you will, at the university level. Like,
no one will voice their doubts, concerns, you know,
at the university level.

(01:07:24):
Everybody
acts like everything's fine. You know, the the theories are solid. The evidence is there. But then when you ask for that evidence, you know, you you get a lot of shuffling around and
and indirect answers.
I think at some point our culture at large

(01:07:44):
began to catch wind of the fact that the emperor has no clothes.
Not because necessarily they were digging into the scientific research. I can almost guarantee that is not the case. I have hardly ever met an average American
who is up to speed on on scientific literature,
regarding origin theories.

(01:08:07):
But what I think did happen was
with the base level of
of scientific
materialism
for our cultural worldview, then on top of that we layered then a philosophy
of
of humanism.
To to to live and breathe and, you know, interact with other human beings, we need some sort of life philosophy.

(01:08:30):
And if we're claiming that God isn't there, there is no higher purpose, there is no greater meaning to life, well, then we need
something
to come and fill that void.
And so,
humanism,
the guiding philosophy,
which in some ways is akin to, you know, Greek hedonism,
just living for pleasure, living for the satisfaction,

(01:08:52):
happiness, etcetera, etcetera,
whatever that means to you. Right. And I think our culture imbibed on on that drink
heavily,
and then after running that social experiment for a couple generations,
we began to realize how empty and shallow it was.
And so I think there has been a bit of a backlash, if you will,

(01:09:14):
on the back end of that experiment of people
desperate for more meaning, purpose,
and and substance
in their life, and not finding it,
in the materialistic worldview that they've been indoctrinated into.
Now some of that was
speculation

(01:09:34):
or, you know, hypothesis at the time that I was writing the book, because I finished the manuscript about a year and a half ago.
But there I was starting to see some
interesting indications
just from
conversations
online, podcasts and interviews. Like, there was just a shift in, like, what our culture seemed to be willing to tolerate in terms of a conversation.

(01:09:58):
But then after the manuscript was done
just a couple months ago,
Ayin Hirsi Ali, a prominent atheist, came out very publicly
proclaiming her conversion to Christianity. I remember that. Yeah. And and then we've had a couple other high profile
conversions. And and there's just there has been

(01:10:19):
a new wave of of discussion. And so then it was really on my radar.
And then a couple months ago,
Barna Research came out with with a three year study, and then Pew Research came out just a couple weeks later,
corroborating it and stating the exact same thing,
that we have we have had a massive
shift,

(01:10:40):
in in people coming to Christianity,
since 2021,
to the tune of about 30,000,000 people, 30,000,000 conversions.
So there does seem to be a massive
grassroots movement. There's not like, you know, a a Billy Graham, you know, out on the stage right now who's who's, you know, holding

(01:11:01):
massive rallies and people are, you know,
coming to his crusades or whatever. Like, this does seem to be a much more grassroots level movement,
but it is massive nonetheless.
And I I think it does speak of this this hunger
that that people have at this point,
that is not being satisfied

(01:11:22):
by the materialistic
worldview, so they are
turning to something else.
Now you mentioned your book a few times. We didn't really get we didn't really mention it earlier on when we introduced you. So you do have a book that's, coming out in August, I think it is?
August 5. Yeah. And it's called Mere Spirituality.
Mere Spirituality,

(01:11:42):
a Rational Embrace of the Supernatural in the Crisis of Our Age. So it's a nice mouthful. Well, but but it's good though. It is any any nod here to CS Lewis, Mere Christianity book?
Absolutely.
Yeah. I,
I have no fame, you know, to to claim for my own, so I had to piggyback off of someone else's, you know. That's okay. Listen. You know, you remember what the Bible says. Right? There's nothing new under the sun. If you thought of it, someone thought of it before you. So that that's that's just kind of the way I go through life right now.

(01:12:15):
I I I haven't had an original idea in I don't know how long, but
it's one of those things. I joke. I joke. I either had to piggyback off of, you know, that great,
spiritual work
or or another very popular one. I could have piggybacked off of Rick Warren's book and written, like, about, you know, dolphin activists and call it a a porpoise driven life or something. But

(01:12:37):
That's that's that's good, Helen. That's funny.
Alright. Well, let me ask you this then. So how would you define spirituality and culture?
I mean, broadly speaking,
in in every
human society that that we have ever studied,
there is this default

(01:12:59):
understanding,
that there is something greater than humanity, that there is something greater even than the physical realm.
And so, you know, broadly speaking, spirituality is just an acknowledgment
of
a reality that had to precede
the physical reality.
And and I think that's a very

(01:13:21):
logical deduction.
When you talk about
the physical reality being comprised of space, time, and matter,
then then what caused
that reality to come into existence
kind of by definition
have to be spaceless,
timeless, and immaterial. So so there is a very strong logical deduction

(01:13:44):
that goes back, you know, throughout the ages
that sages and and philosophers have made, you know, countless times over.
But the the just the understanding
that,
the the universe as we know it
is much more than
just matter and energy,

(01:14:04):
and the laws that govern it and what seems to be the mind that governs it,
is is is far beyond us. And so different cultures, different civilizations
have understood
spirituality in slightly different terms, but all of them, you know, agree on the on the basics, which is
there is some higher power out there.

(01:14:26):
We seem to be disconnected
from that entity
for some reason.
Usually, there the the the understanding is we have done something wrong,
to to kinda upset,
that higher power or there is a a break in trust or in relationship
with that higher power. And therefore most world religions

(01:14:49):
have have put together some sort of system,
to bridge that gap, to to reconnect with the divine,
to put ourselves
back in
the creator's
good graces.
And so, you know, broadly speaking,
the the spirituality
then is is some

(01:15:11):
form or system of worship
or practice,
which reconnects us
with with whatever or whoever
that greater power is.
Now as far as as far as our civilization is going
right now,
do you think that Western civilization, Western culture is in decline?

(01:15:37):
Absolutely.
I mean, regardless of
which,
kind of historical experts you're looking at or or which model, I I should say, you're you're kinda looking at,
I I tend toward,
sir John Glubb's model. He he had seven stages of civilization,
starting with outbreak,

(01:15:57):
and then the the sixth,
stage being decadence,
and then the seventh being collapse.
I think his is probably one of the more popular or at least populous models,
that people are aware of.
Different models are out there. They all basically, you know, say the same thing.
Civilizations rise and fall, you know, pretty pretty simple understanding.

(01:16:20):
The difference between the models is kind of the exact number of stages, you know, the gradations of its rise and
fall. But I do like, sir John Glubbs.
In in his model,
the phase,
called decadence,
He then outlines
kinda characteristic

(01:16:41):
traits of that of that phase, breakdown of of unifying culture,
influx of foreigners, increased of the welfare state,
fiat currency. I mean, there's all of these telltale signs of that you are in decadence. And I'm I'm
I'm sure there are some naysayers

(01:17:02):
out there, but by and large, of the
the the experts who who look at this, who take this stuff seriously at all,
no one is really, you know,
arguing about whether or not we're in decadence.
The question is is more like how far in are we?
Can we turn the ship around?

(01:17:23):
How many ways are can we commit suicide? You know, it's like the the the fine details of it,
but there's not much of a of an argument about whether or not
we are in decline right now. Okay. Camille Paglia
was,
is. She's still alive.
Sir John Glove is not still alive. But, Camille Paglia is a secular,

(01:17:46):
atheist lesbian researcher, and she kinda
studied the late phases of decadence
in many civilizations in history, starting with the Babylonians and Egyptians
working her way on up to the
British Empire.
And in her cultural study, you can read in her book Sexual Personae,

(01:18:08):
she she found that in the late stages of decadence, kind of the the last straw, if you will, that that broke the camel's back right before
the civilization entered into collapse,
was actually the acceptance and proliferation of homosexuality and transgenderism.
And so
there there there are certainly some moral components or at least moral canaries in the coal mine, if you will,

(01:18:32):
that kinda give an indication
of of where you are in the in the decline of your society.
But
according to to her research, we we aren't just in decadence, we're in late decadence.
Yeah. I
I, yeah, I I tend to agree with that, you know. You you look especially here in in The United States, you you look at our culture, you look at where we are,

(01:18:58):
in in the world. I mean, there are so many parallels.
Like like, the
the the average lifespan of a republic
is about two hundred fifty years, and that's that's where we are. And you look at probably one of the greatest republics that ever existed on the face of the Earth, ancient Rome,

(01:19:18):
there the similarities
between
The United States and ancient Rome
are just
too numerous to to really mention, to to list. But just just to name a few of them, high taxation,
high over regulation,
immigration issues,
unable to control their borders, military spread thin throughout the entire world,

(01:19:43):
and that's just and then, of course, the moral decadence,
you know, the same exact things we were just talking about, the the
the the, the alternative lifestyles, the, transgenderism,
and and so on and so forth. You know, all of that was taking place at Rome at at the the height of its collapse.
And, you know, you you see that here in The United States.

(01:20:05):
I can't speak for Europe or anything like that. I mean, I I I know what I see on on on TV and all that stuff, but, you know, I've I've never been to Europe, so I can't say firsthand. But,
you know, it and that gives me a lot of concern. Like, I'm very concerned, and I don't wanna talk all politics here or anything like that. But,
you know, I'm concerned
specifically that, you know, we are so spread thin, and now we're looking at a multiple

(01:20:29):
the possibility of,
multiple conflicts.
You got the the the situation in The Middle East right now. You got China talking about they're already prepared for,
they're they're in undeclared wars, what they said.
And then you have,
the the Russia, Ukraine,
all of that stuff brewing,
and

(01:20:50):
we're in somehow, some way, this country is involved in all of it.
You know? We are extremely spread thin, and then plus you have all the domestic issues going on, but the all the riots and and, you know, the the the violence that takes place at those riots around here around the country. I mean,
what's right is wrong, what's up is down,

(01:21:10):
what's black is blue. It's it's we are definitely at I I have to agree with with,
with her that we are definitely in the last stages of decadence, and I'm I'm fearful in some ways. In some ways, I'm not because I have my faith,
that,
you know, that we're we're seeing a rapid decline

(01:21:31):
in in our in our culture and society.
Now scripturally speaking, you know, I'm okay with that because,
you know, I know that,
I'm a I'm a blood bought born again King James Bible believing Christian. You know?
I I see these things taking place, and I'm and I'm hopeful that the savior is on his way.
And,

(01:21:53):
so I I acknowledge it for what it is. I also know that scripturally speaking, the Bible talks about a time where there's gonna be some right right before the rise of antichrist, there's gonna be a time when,
there is gonna be some prosperity
or great prosperity,
before it ultimately all collapses, and I think that we're on we're very close to that as well. President Trump keeps talking about the golden age of America. He's talking about prosperity. You know, it's it's there's a lot of indications out there that that

(01:22:22):
that this decline
is rapidly coming
or rapidly coming to an end, and we're going to end up
antichrist very soon,
return of Jesus Christ very soon, and, something that I'm really looking forward to.
So, I don't know where you stand on all that, but, you know, that's that's my worldview on all these things that are taking place.

(01:22:45):
Now you also mentioned the enlightenment, and I'm gonna tell you honestly, the enlightenment period is probably one of my favorite
periods of history to study. I
thoroughly enjoy it. And,
so I so the question I have for you on that is,
how did the enlightenment really
advance and and, I guess, maybe in a way limit the Western worldview?

(01:23:09):
Like I said, it it I think it started off
in a quite honest and earnest
investigation.
But as the enlightenment progressed,
there there seemed to be
particular
subjects or questions which became

(01:23:30):
acceptable in polite society and others which were disfavored.
And so I I think in the beginning, there was just this earnest fervor of curiosity and wanting to explore
everything.
And then as time wore on, then that became a little bit more narrowed in focus.
And by the end, spirituality was really poo pooed on. You know? It was looked down upon Mhmm.

(01:23:54):
By the end of,
the enlightenment.
Now I'm talking about, you know, culture at large, not, you know, every segment or every every pocket of population,
because at the same time, there was a a spiritual awakening going on in the Western world. That's right.
And, you know, the late late eighteen hundreds,

(01:24:15):
we had a massive missions movement,
actually, out of the Western world, particularly,
the student volunteer movement where we saw about a 100,000
college,
kids
drop out of school and and go to the missions field as a result of their spiritual fervor and conviction.

(01:24:37):
So, you know, that was that was massive,
But that was, you know, kind of subculture
when we're talking, you know, kinda top line culture.
What was going on in western society was this gradual
move away,
moving away from religious norms and tradition

(01:24:57):
and moving into,
you know, a bright shiny new world, not, you know, a new new future,
which is, you know, kind of what what the whole even nomenclature
of the enlightenment, you know, kind of alludes to. Right.
And and and we're humanity is very reactionary.
And and so we have to look at what was the period prior to the enlightenment. Well, we're talking about the Victorian age, stifling religiosity,

(01:25:22):
lots of, you know, control issues with,
with European, you know, monarchs. And, I mean, so so I can understand, you know, the recoil against that. You know, America was born out of out of that and the pilgrims, you know, fleeing to the new world trying to just find a place where they could
practice their their beliefs freely.

(01:25:43):
So so, you know, I can sympathize
with with the
the culture and and the environment
which we were
reacting
to. But like any reaction,
it goes too far to the other extreme, and and we end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
And,
we get ourselves just into another

(01:26:05):
crisis, which then we react to
yet again.
But
the enlightenment
was definitely a
curious period,
you know, to to study,
particularly
early on,
in in just
the the willingness

(01:26:27):
of of people to go in in every direction
and and look for answers under, you know, every every rock,
regardless of how in in what we would consider to be, you know,
crazy almost,
the the open mindedness, you know, that they had at the time. Mhmm.
We would not be open to some of the possibilities, you know, that they were at that time. Correct.

(01:26:51):
But they were just willing to go, willing
to to investigate and experience it. It wasn't all just armchair philosopher, you know, theorizing.
They were willing to to engage,
I'm talking specifically, in in the spiritual realities.
They were they were willing to,
encounter that and experiment

(01:27:12):
in that,
which
isn't necessarily
a good thing. You know, as as a Bible believing Christian, you know, we we understand
there's some danger,
in in that,
as well. Yeah. There needs to be some some wisdom and some caution.
It's not that you won't encounter
something spiritual. It's that you will, but you're not quite sure what it is, who it is, and how trustworthy that entity is. Yes.

(01:27:40):
Exactly.
But but they were willing to go there, and put their money where their mouth was, as as it were.
So but at the tail end of that, it did become really myopically focused on naturalistic
explanations,
on materialistic
frameworks.

(01:28:00):
And therefore a bias began to form
within the upper echelons, kind of the hoity toity, you know, of society,
which then quickly transferred to kind of the upper echelons of academia within our society,
which then quickly became gatekeepers of of, you know, what was a preferable narrative

(01:28:20):
and not.
And therefore
religious ideas or spiritual ideas
became disfavored,
began to really be
spoken down to, you know, in our society, which which really gave the impression to then your average layperson
that if I am an educated person, then I can't believe in these, you know, quote unquote

(01:28:45):
bronze bronze age myths. Mhmm.
There's this general, you know, sense of not just enlightenment, but of evolution, you know, that we're we're smarter, we're better, we're more informed
now. And so I I can't believe something
which has been,
you know, a bedrock foundation, you know, of every civilization

(01:29:06):
from time immemorial,
because
that's old fashioned.
No. It's it's a it's a very
I chuckle
at that notion because but I get it all the time,
particularly from from atheists, but even well meaning
people from other beliefs and worldviews.
But this idea that

(01:29:28):
because an idea is old,
it's wrong.
That that's just a very,
nonsensical
argument.
Number one, as you pointed out,
drawing from, you know, King Solomon,
there's nothing new under the sun.
If if we're going to discredit or disparage

(01:29:48):
theistic
ideas
due to the age of them, well, then we also have by the same token, have to
disparage and and throw out
atheistic
ideas for the exact same reason,
because atheism
goes back at least to the fifth century BC with Democritus in Greek philosophy

(01:30:09):
Right.
And most likely far earlier than that in other cultures and societies.
And democracy itself goes back to the Bronze Age. So, well, do we just chuck that out because that's an old fashioned idea too? You know?
So I mean it doesn't take but thirty seconds of, you know, logical thinking to realize that theism

(01:30:31):
is not
a wrong idea just because it's old.
We actually have to engage with the arguments,
actually engage in good faith with the discussion,
and not just dismiss an idea out of hand
because it's been around a while.
Because
wisdom
has, yes, has been around a while.

(01:30:53):
And if we're just to chuck wisdom out the window in favor of whatever the new flavor of the day is philosophically
in our culture,
we're gonna be let around by our nose, you know. So we do need a rudder and
a wheel to to navigate,
some of these things and be able to test them
in light of previous

(01:31:15):
information and and revelation and and what other societies
outside of our bias and outside of our cultural bubble have have also,
engaged with. Do you think that there's ever gonna be a time when where where,
academia
or the the public square

(01:31:36):
will ever
embrace the supernatural?
Well, I can never I I can't say never. You know, that that would be a
a ridiculous,
you know, prediction.
But in terms
of where we're at in our our civilizational
cycle or or our cultural cycles,

(01:31:59):
you
know, the the trend
is,
civilizations
as they enter later in later phases,
of civilization, particularly
kinda beginning at, what Sir John Love called the the stage of
intellect and then moving forward beyond that and then into decadence and collapse,

(01:32:22):
there there is this
pride,
this this sense of
arrogance, cultural arrogance, that we know it all. We're the tip of the spear. We're the the top of the food chain,
and therefore we become
less and less receptive to outside input
or wisdom

(01:32:43):
or
or correction.
And so I think
just given the the,
you know,
the the the string of events
that that humanity has typically followed,
I think it's unlikely
at this point
for our civilization to suddenly pivot on a dime and say, Oh, never mind. You know, all that materialistic

(01:33:05):
stuff, that that's that's nonsense. Our bad. We got it wrong.
That makes sense. The the pride of man just really does not allow for us to
to come
in with that much humility and and be able to to return back to where we the point to where we deviated.
More often than not, man doubles down on dumb,

(01:33:28):
and
and doubles down on on his,
arrogance
and does not allow for any doubt
to come in. Nope. This is correct. Doesn't matter that nothing seems to go be going well. Doesn't matter that none of the events seems to line up. We know this is right. All the experts say this is right, and we're sure this is right. Pride goeth before the fall, brother.

(01:33:54):
Exactly.
So how how how do you think different world views like, Eastern spirituality,
animism,
compare to Judeo Christian framework?
Especially in your analysis, how would you
how do you feel about that? Well
What do you think about that, I should say? Compare comparing what sense? Like, do you have a specific question in mind? Or I'm just I'm just looking for, like,

(01:34:22):
because, you know, Eastern spirituality is is is,
in a lot of ways, different to compared to
traditional Judeo Christian
For sure.
The the the whole framework of the Judeo
Christian
religious worldview.

(01:34:44):
And
I I don't I I I guess the question really is is,
you know, are there are there any is there anything in there that is compatible? Or how did how did the Judeo Christian framework
split
from
the,
Eastern

(01:35:04):
spirituality or vice versa rather? Because I think the Jale Christian,
beliefs came were about long before it's the Eastern spirituality started to develop.
Yeah. I mean,
when you get into
the the coexist, you know, arguments,
there there is certainly

(01:35:26):
a lot of
hype and fanfare
about what all commonalities
every world religion
has.
And I I think for the most part, that's
done in good faith. You know, people are are are wanting
a sense of, you know, the larger,
you

(01:35:46):
know, human community and and and wanting to focus on what we have in common rather than what we,
where we differ. So I think that's fine.
However, it's, you know, horribly misguided.
Mhmm.
In in that, yes, of course, there's going to be some very
surface level similarities between a lot of a lot of things, whether it be a worldview,

(01:36:12):
or a political ideology,
or,
or even, you know, taxonomy, you know, categorizing living things.
So but but when you get into
categorizations,
it's not the similarities that matter. Mhmm. It's the differences that define the categories.

(01:36:32):
Gotcha. And so we we have to understand that any any taxonomy,
any breakdown of category, any trying to
to fit something into a a similar family
and then differentiate
it from another group of of families, like,
by definition, what we're focusing on in those things are the differences,

(01:36:53):
not the similarities.
I won't give an exact percentage because that's a bit of a moving target
Mhmm.
As as we do more and more scientific research, but,
but I'll just say
there is a lot of similarities
percentage wise between the DNA of pigs

(01:37:14):
and humans.
But that doesn't mean that we're basically the same thing.
Like, it's the differences
between those two species
that make all the difference. I mean, when when someone is talking about a human, they are not at all conflating characteristics
with the pork chop that they just ate.

(01:37:35):
You know, when when they're talking about
music and art and language, they're not at all thinking about bacon.
And and so we we have to understand
that it is the differences that matter,
particularly when those differences are mutually
exclusive truth claims.

(01:37:55):
You can't
get into this, you know, really loose,
definition of truth and say, well, they all basically believe the same thing.
Well, except that they all claim explicitly different things, and they all claim that that truth that they claim is true is the only truth.
Now there are

(01:38:16):
some exceptions to that rule. You do have cases like Buddhism,
which is highly syncretistic. It's more of a philosophy than it is a theology. Correct. And it is a very pragmatic
philosophy.
They really do allow you
to kind of pick and choose, a la carte, whatever belief that you would like to believe, and as long as it

(01:38:37):
aids you in your
journey toward enlightenment,
which in that worldview is
the ever decreasing
drive for your own desires,
including your own life. Mhmm. As long as it is driving you from your desire
and and toward enlightenment, which is becoming one with the universe, which means dying and not reincarnating,

(01:39:03):
you become one with the universe, your your life force
returns to the ether from which it came,
then all is fair game. Whatever
religion, whatever theology, whatever philosophy aids you in
in your drive, in your quest toward enlightenment is fine. So there there are some exceptions to that. But even within Buddhism, there's going to be some hard and fast rules which which do not coexist, you know, with with other truth claims.

(01:39:33):
But then when you get into more codified, you know, beliefs and worldviews such as Islam or Judaism or Christianity,
or to some extent, you know, Hinduism
and even animism,
they're those are a little less codified. They have more like
you know, the the holy writings that that animism

(01:39:53):
and shamanism
and,
Hinduism have would be more akin to, you know, Psalms and Proverbs, you know? Right. Yeah.
Helping guide you on on the journey, but not necessarily a codified rule book of do's and don'ts.
But but even those
are going to make very explicit truth claims which are not compatible

(01:40:16):
with other,
views and and with other truth claims.
So,
I understand the heart,
you know, the intention of people who come from the the coexist mantra,
wanting to focus on our commonalities.
However, you have to understand
that not all truths
not all claims can be true simultaneously.

(01:40:39):
Either one of them is true and the others aren't, or none of them are true, but all of them can't be true. Mhmm.
And so the question then becomes
honest investigation.
Of of all these these truth claims, which one has the most validity?
Which one can I trust? Which one has, you know, the history, the archaeology,

(01:41:04):
and even the science, if if you will, and if you wanna dive into origin theories and stuff. Like, which one is the most
plausible?
But then beyond that, I think we have to go
well beyond theory
and even argumentative,
speculative,
logic and and reason.
And we do actually have to go then apply the the scientific method one more step and actually dive into the evidence

(01:41:29):
in terms of actual lived experience.
Mhmm.
And, again,
you know, I've I've been all over. I've I've interacted with with Hindus,
Buddhists, Muslims, you you name it.
It's it's not that
it's very rare, I would say. It's very rare that I have encountered someone from a different culture, from a different worldview, from a different religious perspective

(01:41:54):
who I have a conversation with, and they claim,
well, I pray to x God or I pray to y God.
I've never gotten a response. I've never had any supernatural experience. There there's never been any evidence
that anything that I believe is true.
I just go with it because that's what all my friends do. You know, that's that's pretty rare. Mhmm. Most people are actually interested in

(01:42:19):
experiencing
the truth claims that their family or society
has presented to them.
And so I think religious viewpoints get a little bit of a bad rap by atheists and agnostics, who kind of just assume
that everyone just blindly believes and believes whatever

(01:42:39):
belief system they happen to have been born into, that there's absolutely
no critical thinking, there's absolutely no investigation,
the people just go with with whatever has been fed to them.
If that were true, then Western society would largely be atheistic.
That is not true. That is the worldview that has been force fed to every person for the last several generations,

(01:43:03):
without,
deviation in our public education system. Yeah. Have they also gone to church on Sunday
morning? Yes. But let's be real.
An hour sermon on on once a week is nothing to compare to
six to eight hours of indoctrination
five days a week at a public education system, plus the peer pressure that comes from your friends involved in that, etcetera, and and and the cultural

(01:43:29):
narrative
that is you know, culture is one of the most pervasive and powerful
forces on the planet.
So swimming upstream against that current because you heard, you know, a sermon once a week or because your parents, you know, swear on a stack of Bibles
that God is real
is is not

(01:43:50):
a convincing argument. Yeah. I think that's why homeschooling is is so important now, especially with the way the,
the education system is in the in this country is particularly, and how left
it leans and how,
inclusive it has to be to everything and everybody,
I think I I've seen in my personal experience in my little small circle around here is, you know, homeschooling is becoming very, very, very popular again, which is great. Yeah. And I endorse that a 100%.

(01:44:21):
You know, I wish that, you know, I I wish that I I homeschooled my kids, you know, growing up.
But,
I know several people right now that that are homeschooling their children. And I'll tell you honestly, you you look at the at the statistics coming out of homeschooling, most most homeschooled children actually do better in exams, college exams, entry exams, and do better in the edge in in the university system than publicly educated children. I mean, right now, I I you you can graduate But it's not it's not only that.

(01:44:57):
Standardized testing scores are also showing
how homeschoolers not only are performing better than public schools,
but homeschoolers are performing better than even private schools. Wow. See, I I didn't know that. But, the,
there was there was another thing too that they talk about, you know, you know, there's that social
aspect of it. They homeschooling kids do better,

(01:45:20):
You know, especially when it's a especially when it's a,
it's a, a religion based homeschooling program. I think it's it's infinitely better than anything that the public school system can put out there.
Yeah. We,
we homeschool our kids. Part of that is kinda necessity. We we move and we travel a lot. Mhmm. And so being having the freedom to be able to educate them on the go,

(01:45:46):
is
far, better than having to to pull them out of school for a week or two or whatever.
But,
but, yeah, absolutely. That was,
one of the
my wife isn't isn't American.
She's Singaporean.
Homeschool was not something that their culture,

(01:46:09):
really,
at least when she was growing up. It is becoming a little bit more acceptable now, but it was not something that was acceptable when my wife was growing up. She went to a private school,
a very, very, you know, well well-to-do
private school,
performed well academically.
And so when we got married, you know, and we started talking, well, what, you know, what do does the education of our own children what might that look like? You know, I when I brought up homeschool, you know, I was

(01:46:39):
not even on her radar. Right. You know? She's like, I'm sorry. You wanna do what?
But but then going through the you know, I didn't have
to it didn't take too much to convince her,
because the studies are there,
showing that the academic performance component.
And to her as a Singaporean,

(01:46:59):
the academic performance component was really all she cared about. That was so disappointing.
Yeah. That was her that that won her over. So
So let me ask you this. If if someone's if somebody feels spiritually numb or disillusioned, where would you tell them to start?
Yeah. I I would my first recommendation
would be don't double down on stupid.

(01:47:23):
You're right. I think it was Don't double down on stupid. Was yeah.
Joshua's words of wisdom there. Hey. You know, it was, Einstein who said,
the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
And so I I think step number one is just recognizing, okay,
what is our culture at large
currently doing?

(01:47:44):
Mhmm. And if that is what is producing what I'm currently experiencing,
then obviously I need to shift to something different than that.
And what is
that? Well that that is materialism.
That is a naturalistic worldview and and philosophy,
which then led to a humanistic
philosophy,

(01:48:06):
which then can very quickly bleed over into a hedonistic
philosophy.
And so I think that's step number one, recognizing the problem
and then being willing to do something about it and not just continue
down the same path of destruction.
But that was really who I wrote my book for.

(01:48:30):
I I didn't know it at the time. The studies weren't out yet. It was a year and a half in advance,
but,
but it really is for those people who are like, okay. I recognize there's a problem.
I look around at the cultural landscape, and I see
there's definitely something wrong.
Like,

(01:48:51):
there's a a lot of different,
you know, data points to pull from just to alert me to the fact that something isn't quite right.
But then from that sense of desperation and curiosity
then has to come the willingness to actually do
the work Right.
To do the homework. And that's where most people get stuck,

(01:49:13):
not even necessarily out of out of laziness,
although that could be the case.
It's but I I think it's more often than not just a sense of being overwhelmed and having no idea where to even begin,
because there are many worldviews out there. There are many truth claims out there. There are many religious,

(01:49:35):
lenses and frameworks out there. And so to have to to even think about having to do their homework on each and every one of them and do a cross comparison
and an analysis of which one is is more likely to be true, like, that is just a really daunting task.
There are people who have done it.
So you don't have to start from ground zero at square one. You know, you can start,

(01:49:58):
with with people
like CS Lewis who began life, you know, as an atheist and then converted,
to Christianity
through
reason.
You can, even, you know, more modern,
you could
go to books like The Case for Christ, you know, and from an agnostic

(01:50:19):
or slightly lean atheist perspective,
who's just a secular journalist, you know, he did the legwork and did the investigation, and again
came to the conclusion that Christianity
was true.
Another good book by the way in that area is, I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist.
Yeah, Frank Turek, right?

(01:50:40):
So yeah, I mean
there is there are so many resources available today. But even by saying that,
that can be daunting. You know? People like, okay. Who's a good author? Who's a legit author? Who's someone who actually knows their stuff
versus someone who's, you know, published something on Amazon that

(01:51:01):
has absolutely no scientific rigor or or academic credibility whatsoever. You know? So I I get that. Yeah. But there are resources out there. There are some really good YouTube,
channels and and
content out there, podcasts
of people who are willing to have honest discussions with with people from different world views.
And I

(01:51:23):
personally
this is just a personal thing. I personally don't get a lot
out of debates
in that I don't think they really
change people's hearts and minds just because typically when people come into a debate, they've already chosen a side and they're looking to cheer the home team.
But occasionally, you do get a really good discussion debate between two individuals

(01:51:47):
who are engaging in good faith and who respect one another
and dive into the deeper questions, and you can get some really good nuggets out of those.
But it's
few and far between, unfortunately.
Yeah. It is rare. It is rare, unfortunately. I agree with you. I I
I'll watch a debate or I'll listen to a debate, and I I maybe I'll find

(01:52:09):
just something
that I could apply to myself or use in another argument or discussion with somebody else.
You know, an old preacher friend of mine used to say all the time, you know, you know,
you know, every once in a while, you can find a diamond in a garbage pail. You know?
So that's that's the kind of approach that I take into any kind of a debate that I go into, you know, to observe.
Sure. Just, you know, I just take take whatever I can get out of it at that point. I mean, sometimes you can get some really good information,

(01:52:35):
you know, on both sides of the argument, and and it can help you in in some aspects.
But other than that, it's just two people spouting off, you know,
it doesn't really affect me in any way.
Yeah. Debates have a tendency to talk past one another,
or debaters, I should say, have a tendency to talk past one another.
And I I I just like,

(01:52:57):
it's too serious of a question to blow off flippantly. It is it's it's too serious of an investigation,
to get into this, you know, ad hominem
type arguments
and and and trying to, you know,
destroy, you know, someone online. Like, it's it's too serious of a question,

(01:53:18):
to that is just such a disservice.
And so I really, like, find someone who has honest
conversations, honest discussions, someone who actually cares about the person
that they are talking to, not just about winning the debate or the argument.
And so having those those good faith discussions is is so critical, and especially in in our era

(01:53:42):
of social media where it's not a lack of information that is the problem.
It is a lack of relationship
that is the problem.
People just don't even know really how to engage with another human being in a meaningful way.
And and we were,
regardless if you wanna adhere to the, you
know, intelligent design origin theory or or even the evolutionary

(01:54:06):
theory.
Either way, you have to acknowledge that humanity is a very social species.
Yes.
And if if we
disconnect relationally from other human beings, it can only be detrimental
to us.
And so the relationship component is so key.

(01:54:27):
And this is something that,
the
ancient, you know, Jewish understanding and even ancient Christian
understanding
got right, which I think our modern society this is one of these areas where our modern culture has has really gone astray
is that we really focused on mentorship

(01:54:48):
back then.
You you know, you apprenticed under someone else who knew their stuff,
from from their their trade to their philosophy to their theology, you know,
someone that you really
admired, respected, and would listen to, and and could be corrected by. Right.

(01:55:09):
Modern society,
particularly the West and and more particularly
America, we have
really gone
hyper extreme
in this independent
spirit,
where we want to be completely independent,
completely unaccountable,
completely unanswerable to anyone.
We wanna make up our own rules,
March by the meet beat of our own drummer, you know, and and not take no from anyone.

(01:55:34):
And that is killing us
in terms of our human connection.
We've we've disregarded authority. We've rejected
father figures. You know? I mean, the the the it just goes on and on. The the destruction that we are
are bringing to bear within our own culture and society,

(01:55:55):
is is just unfathomable
as a result of of this philosophy.
And so,
relationship.
I I I you know, I would recommend my book, but the book in and of itself,
I don't care how good of a book it is, it's not enough. Like what you need is relationship with other human beings who are also

(01:56:17):
seeking answers to those questions.
Ideally, there's a couple people in that group who have, you know, gone maybe one or two steps ahead of you, you know, so that they actually have some wisdom that they could pass down.
But at the bare minimum that you are in a flock of people
together

(01:56:38):
investigating,
having a book club, having honest discussions,
living life together, breaking bread together,
like, to where there's actual accountability
and
rubber meets the road discussions,
where where iron can sharpen iron.
But, yeah, there's great resources out there. You're not alone, and you certainly don't have to start from square one.

(01:57:01):
This book that I wrote, I did write for you. I would recommend
my book or a similar book. I'm not saying that mine is the perfect one out there or or that it's the first one you should pick up,
But there are some really great resources out there. But I think more than that, our tendency,
due to our very independent nature and culture, is we just go, okay. Here's here's the book. Here's the program. Here's the

(01:57:31):
the the school that you need to go through, or here's the YouTube channel you need to listen to. And and even more than the information
is the transformation.
There there has to be one on one accountability
and and relationship involved. You know, a great place to get that is in church, you know. Wouldn't you agree?
Getting get some I would definitely agree. Right?

(01:57:53):
It and it's
but unfortunately, though, in in today's society, especially since COVID,
when everything went everything was shut down, basically, and you had to, you know, build up these relationships, you know, through video,
conference calls and things like that,
that really hurt the church
at at, you know Absolutely. Because I know in my church that, there there were I mean, I I I at the time of COVID, I wasn't well, I had just gotten here, and I just started looking to go to this church.

(01:58:25):
And,
so
from what I was from I'm told from the from our pastor is that, you know, prior to COVID, the pews were filled
every Sunday. Yeah. You know? Now there's maybe
fifteen, twenty people,
and you can't get those folks back that stepped away from church

(01:58:47):
for whatever their reasons are, you know, whatever their rationale is on that.
But that hurt the church.
And I think that's and since COVID, that's of course, it's carried on, and I think it's still like that in a lot of ways.
People are more comfortable now
interacting this way, like how we are right now, than they are to be in the same place with somebody or make that attempt to, hey, let's get let's get together and have a cup of coffee and sit and talk about this issue.

(01:59:17):
Let's, you know, let's let's get together around the table and have a dinner and talk about stuff.
You know? Yeah. And and I can understand
that due to the convenience
factor. Yes.
Like, of course,
the the technological ability for me to to be on this call with you,
online is

(01:59:37):
amazing. I'm so glad that we have that as a
as an option.
However,
given the two options, if you would have asked me, hey. Would you like to,
you know,
do a teleconference,
or, you know, could I fly you into the studio and we have a face to face chat? Then I would have chosen face to face chat 10 out of 10 times, you know, even if even if I had to pay out of my own pocket to do it. You know? Mhmm.

(02:00:03):
Because the quality of that interaction
is just
I mean, there's no comparison.
You know, it's the same reason. It it's it's shocking that that I even have to, you know, make this argument, but it's the same reason,
people go to a live concert versus just listening to an album at home. You know?

(02:00:23):
There's just it's a completely different dynamic. That's right. Yeah. There's so much more life and energy in the room when you're experiencing something with other living, breathing
human beings. And that's just when you're
sitting on the sidelines and just experiencing
whatever happens to be going on as a community. It it it, you know, that

(02:00:45):
ratchets up to another order of magnitude when you're talking about actual
interactions and discussions, you know, between human beings in a community setting. So, yeah, it's absolutely
critical.
There's nowhere
nowhere in scripture,
that would give any indication
that,

(02:01:05):
we can do church either alone or remotely.
I mean, the the only example that we might be able to make the case for in the New Testament would be, you know, Paul had to do church remotely quite often because he was in prison.
You know, and so he was writing letters and using the technology of his day to be able to interact with his with fellow believers.

(02:01:28):
But even in that,
he was asking,
begging, if you will, you know, those churches to send
him people to minister to him in prison. You know? That's right. Like, he even he was acknowledging, like, I I can't do this by myself, guys. I I need you. I need encouragement. I need fellowship. I I need iron sharpening iron. I need worship with other fellow believers. And the book of Hebrews tells us to forsake not the assembling ourselves one with another.

(02:01:56):
Yeah.
And so, yes, I agree. COVID was a travesty.
What was what what was even, you know, more unfortunate
beyond
the government mandates was then when those mandates were lifted, people then had the option to come back and they chose not to. And
and and that is

(02:02:17):
that's even more unfortunate in my mind because there's there's really no excuse at that point. You're you're justifying
disobedience to to a biblical mandate. And even beyond a biblical mandate, you're you're,
simply
ignoring
every ounce of social science that that we have to date. You know?
That you are not going to be healthier on your own. That's right. You are not going to thrive without community.

(02:02:43):
You need other people, and and
you need, other like minded individuals to where you can be in a community, to where you can actually have discussions about the things that matter and matter most,
and and be able to dive in them without,
fear of ostracization,
you know.
So we we have to have those that communal aspect of of spirituality once again. I mean, human beings are social beings, you know. We we need the interplay between,

(02:03:14):
individuals
in order to be to be mentally healthy, psychologically health healthy.
You need to be outdoors to to be physically healthy. You need the fresh air. You need the sunlight. You need those things. That is and and,
you know, people lost sight of that.
People lost sight of that. Yep. I think, you know,

(02:03:35):
the damage that that was done by all those lockdowns,
at that time is
irreparable at this point. You know, it's it's been too long. People stayed away. People are still staying away.
I still see people running around with masks on. I mean, it's it's ridiculous.
You know? But
that's what it is. That's where it is. Well, Joshua, we are, over our two hours, and,

(02:04:00):
so we are going to I got one more question for you. Tell us
when and where we'll be able to get your book and, how we could, track you down on socials if you are on any of them, whichever one you wanna give out.
Yeah. The again, the the book title is Mere Spirituality,
A Rational Embrace of the Supernatural and the Crisis of Our Age. It comes out August 5 everywhere books are sold.

(02:04:26):
If you're wanting to get a copy prior to that wide release date, you can go to my website,
masinmissions,mperspective.org.
You can get a pre release copy there.
Ebook, physical,
whatever you prefer.
I have lots of articles and resources,
on that website as well, so you can connect with me there.

(02:04:47):
Socials, I'm
I'm not the most,
diligent social media,
poster, but you can find me on on x and and Facebook.
Outstanding. And we'll make sure we have all that information,
in the show notes. It's already in the audio show notes. I have to have to add it to the video show notes. So, Joshua, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us tonight. Dude, I hope you feel better. And you know what? You're not as stiff as you you're just not as stiff as you thought as I thought you were gonna be.

(02:05:15):
Oh, good. Yeah. Man, I tell you,
three broken ribs, broken sternum, broken clavicle, and a broken vertebrae. I'm I'm not feeling top notch, but I'm glad glad I pulled it off. It doesn't well, it doesn't show. I mean, it you you did great tonight. Thank you so much for it. And like I said, you know, we could have rescheduled, could have done it tonight, didn't matter. You know? I'd make time.

(02:05:36):
The show must go on. Right? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. It must. Alright. Well, again, Joshua, thank you so much, and I look forward to hearing from you again soon. I'd love to have you back on at some point, you know, just to give us an update on how things are going with the book and and the things that are coming thereafter.
Alright.
Alright. Well, folks, thank you, so much for being with us tonight. We're gonna say good night here. Let me just get this thing going. Alright. As usual, we're gonna give our shout outs to our executive producers, Wayne and Rosanna Rankin. We're also going to give our shout out to

(02:06:07):
our
producer, anonymous, Angela.
Thank you so much for all that you've done for us, and this has been a great conversation.
Stark difference from the first part of the show, but I am gonna finish my thoughts
tomorrow on tomorrow night's show. There is something I wanted to bring forward. Alright, folks. Don't forget. Check us out on our website, joeroos.com.

(02:06:27):
Joeroos.com.
We will see you
tomorrow night,
07:00 Central Time.
Tonight
and goodbye.

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The Joe Rooz Show with guest: Joshua Spatha SATURDAY SPOTLIGHT (Ep. 112)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Joe Rooz Show with guest: Joshua Spatha **SATURDAY SPOTLIGHT** (Ep. 112)