Drunk In Love: Substances & Seduction

What happens when you mix intimacy with psychedelics? Jess and I get personal and vulnerable as we recount our journeys navigating sex, substances, and consent. From the ethereal, boundary-melting experiences enhanced by psychedelics to the pitfalls of relying on alcohol for sexual encounters, we explore how these substances can transform or complicate our intimate lives. Through our own stories, we highlight how the dissolution of the ego can lead to profound connections but also stress the critical importance of trust and safety.

Our discussion takes a deep dive into the complexities of consent, particularly during adolescence and under the influence of substances. We share candid reflections on the struggles of growing up with religious backgrounds, the pressures to conform, and the misuse of substances like alcohol to manage these dynamics. Jess provides heartfelt insights into her early sexual experiences and how they shaped her understanding of validation and connection. We underscore the necessity of clear, enthusiastic consent and the continual practice of communicating boundaries to ensure mutual agreement.

Finally, we reflect on the empowering impact of sobriety on our sexual experiences. By embracing a sober lifestyle, we found deeper connections, clearer intentions, and the ability to genuinely tune into our desires. We discuss how setting boundaries and practicing body scanning have helped us engage in more intentional and mindful sexual encounters. Whether you're curious about the role of psychedelics in enhancing intimacy or seeking guidance on navigating consent and sobriety, our conversation offers a raw, honest exploration of the intimate and often unspoken aspects of sexual wellness.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
For me with psychedelics, it's this like
kind of magical, ethereal,otherworldly experience that you
can share with somebody, wherewe can both be like knowing that
, like your brain is creatingwhatever the hell images it is
and mine is doing its thing, andlike we'll be talking to each
other while it's happening, likehere's what I'm seeing, what
are you seeing, and it's like,oh yeah, it's super interesting

(00:21):
and really intimate becauseyou're sharing whatever brain is
manufacturing based on thepsychedelics, which is really
cool.
So I think sex and psychedelicscan be really intimate.
I think I would not recommendit for people that you're not
close to.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
I think it would be weird as fuck to feel that type
of connection with somebody whoI didn't feel safe with fuck to
feel that type of connectionwith somebody who I didn't feel
safe with yeah, oh, I couldimagine that, because even just
for me personally, doingpsychedelics, you know just for
fun, at a festival, or, you know, wanting to go deeper in my
thoughts, or you know, on acamping trip with friends or

(01:03):
whatever it may be, really takesme a lot to get to that point,
just because of thevulnerability and how much it
can crack you open, yes, andleave you, you know, open to
these different energies.
And so if you are with someonethat you don't trust or has a
certain energy that can kind ofbe encroaching on yours, it can
turn your trip, you know, realbad, real quick For sure.
So you know it's definitely yeah, making sure that you are in

(01:23):
that safe space you are with.
You know, for, I think, maybeless seasoned you know, people
that you know have their, havetheir mechanisms and their plan
in place for when they do drugs.
But I just know, yeah for me,and it sounds like you
personally that yeah, definitely, I think in a more intimate
setting, I agree that it wouldhave to be with someone that I'm
, you know, super close with andyou know, actually, was it last

(01:46):
summer, did.
I have this.
Yeah, I think there was kind ofa psychic, my one of my first
psychedelic, like sexualexperiences and I would say
psychedelics in generalsometimes can be a little a lot
for me, just because, of howmuch they open and you know
everything that's going on andjust life and the world and like
where's my mental space?

(02:06):
and not knowing you know what'sgoing to come up, and you know
letting go and almost kind ofchanging that focus from in my
head but to my body and theperson's body, yeah, and like
getting into that kind of coolweird space where you're just
like melding and everything'smelting and, like you know, the
feelings are heightened and it'sjust like you kind of become
this intertwined, just likemagical goo of human awesomeness

(02:30):
that you're feeling andexperiencing.
It can be amazing.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yes that's how I would describe it, almost yeah,
yeah, it's almost like thepsychedelics allow you to like.
Drop the artifice ofseparateness.
Yes, yes, in this way, the ego,yes, the ego is gone and you're
just like we are, two energeticbeings exchanging and it becomes
and I sound like a fuckinghippie saying love it but it can
become this really fucking coolexperience where you're just

(02:56):
like experiencing andexperimenting with each other on
this sort of like magicalplayground of whatever your
brains are creating in thatmoment, and as long as you feel
safe, it can be like a reallyfucking dope experience, yeah,
and really beautiful.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Really beautiful.
So I mean, if they're legal inyour state.
I encourage you to have sex onpsychedelics with people who you
feel really trusting with.
Yeah, because I think you'll belike whoa, like we just like
fucking melded, you know, andlike it's so cool.
Welcome to the Juicy SexPodcast, where my friends and I
have raw, unfiltered andhilarious conversations about

(03:38):
all things sex.
I'm Alisa Eddy, the founder andCEO of Juicy Sexual Wellness,
where we try the toys and helpyou find the right one for you.
Now on to the podcast.
Welcome to the Sex andSubstances episode of the
podcast.
Thank you so much.

(03:58):
Yeah, welcome.
I'm here with my guest, jess,and she is here to talk about
sex and substances with us.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yes, thank you so much for having me.
There's a lot on this topic, soI'm excited to get into it.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
So much on this topic .
I think that this is aprofoundly unexplored topic, so
I'm really excited to dive inwith you.
Great yeah, all right.
So a little bit at thebeginning here, let's talk about
springtime in Seattle, which iswhere we are Gorgeous Finally,
fucking gorgeous, absolutely,and I like how, like it's 71

(04:35):
degrees and people are tanningon their front lawns.
I definitely was that person inmy hammock the other day.
Yes, nice, that's signatureSeattle move.
The tanning on the lawn moveLike 60 degrees is like 80 here.

Speaker 3 (04:49):
It is.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
It's true, it's so true, very true, all right.
So as we talk about sex andsubstances, it's important to
make it clear that this is ajudgment-free zone, which means
we're going to be real andhonest about our relationships
with sex and substances and howthey have evolved.
We are not here to be perfectfor you.

(05:11):
We are not going to pretend tobe perfect.
We don't want people to feeljudged and we're not going to
pretend all choices are equallyhealthy either.
So just putting that out therefor everybody listening.
So just putting that out therefor everybody listening, I think
it's important to say we'veprobably made all the mistakes
between the two of us.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
And then some yeah, and then some.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
So, no matter what your relationship between sex
and substances is, you're notalone.
You're in good company here.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
Yeah, and I think it's important too, you know,
having that we're coming from anopen mind, we're being
vulnerable, we're sharingstories, you know, that are very
personal to us and you know I,just in my sharing of my stories
, hope that you know it willcreate a sense that people can
relate to and know that they'renot alone.
And if they feel some shame orguilt around it, you know that

(06:03):
we're here, we've been there,we've seen it and we're just
creating a safe space to talkabout that Exactly.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Perfect, yeah, so we're going to start at the
beginning.
A very good place to start.
Yeah, so how did yourrelationship with sex and
substances start?

Speaker 3 (06:26):
Ooh, that's a great question.
Um, and I think it actuallygoes a little bit even before my
relationship with substances.
Um, because a lot of just myrelationship with sex in general
started at a very young age.
Um, I was someone that was, uh,just very highly sexualized,

(06:46):
you know, very early on, lost myvirginity, I think at 14.
And it was just something thatI felt like I had control over
my own body and using that to,almost, in a way, people please
and fill a void and get thatconnection and get that
reassurance that I was cravingso much from, you know, early on

(07:09):
experiences.
And then I think it was aboutaround 16.
Funny enough, it was after aBible camp.
Sorry, mom, of course it'sBible camp.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Sorry, mom.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
Of course it's Bible camp and I had just got my car
for my 16th birthday.
My parents actually surprisedme with my green, my gosh what
was it, I can't even rememberLike 1991 green car and there
was a small group of leadershipand some of the camp counselors

(07:43):
going over to this like houseparty once we all got back and
you know I show up, there's somedrinking.
You know I have some few beersand you know I'm feeling a
little tipsy and this one guythat I had a little bit of vibes
with and on the camp trip doesthe classic, which I didn't know
this at the time do you want tosee the upstairs?

(08:04):
Oh yeah, and my naive,childlike 16 year old mind, he
was older, I think a few yearsolder and I'm like, yeah, sure,
let's go see the upstairs.
And sure enough, um, yeah, youknow, it starts with kissing,
starts touching me, and I justremember, kind of in this drunk
state, realizing, okay, this isthe situation I'm in and kind of

(08:28):
feeling powerless in a way.
And just you know, okay, thisis my situation now and I'm just
gonna go with it and kind ofsee what happens.
And so we end up having sex andI come downstairs and I just
remember feeling you know kindof a lot of shame and guilt and
embarrassment and you knoweveryone downstairs knew what
was happening and I just feltyou know kind of dumb.

(08:52):
For I think taking thesituation literal and having
good intentions and I don't knowafter that, you know, and then
plus kind of everything elsejust started, was kind of my
catalyst for just you know,getting comfortable with, if I
feel uncomfortable, usingalcohol and substances to kind
of go through situations where Imight feel uncomfortable or not

(09:15):
even sure what to do or what myvoice or even stances in the
moment.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yep, that makes a lot of sense to me.
I know that my first severaltimes hooking up with people I
was pretty drunk.
I know that most of those timesI don't regret also yeah,
personally I mean, some of themI do.
But also I know that one thingthat was hard for me, as I also,

(09:40):
like I, was raised veryreligious I was raised in a
Baptist home and one thing thatwas really hard for me was to
say yes.
Not just to say no, but to sayyes, like yes, I do want this.
I felt like I needed to bealtered to say yes when I wanted

(10:04):
it, because the grip that myreligious upbringing had on me
was so strong that it was hardto admit that I wanted things
without.
But at the time was alcohol wasmy primary yeah, my primary
drug.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
I can definitely relate with that a lot, because
I think a lot of times mydefault would just be yes, or
there would be times where I maynot say anything and just kind
of give body language, and evensaying nothing, people would
take that as a a survival modewhich is just like, ok, well,
I'm not going to make a scene.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
You know, if they assume, yes, I'm going to just
go with it.
But this is where consentmatters for everybody listening,
and this is where it's a reallygreat idea to teach all of your
young people to ask each otherbefore they start to engage in
sexual activity, becausesometimes it is a domino effect
into parts of ourselves that wedon't necessarily fully

(11:17):
understand or have a lot ofcontrol over.
So, yeah, 100%.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
And I actually like I didn't know you could have a
choice.
I mean I did, but I didn't knowyou could have a choice.
I mean I did, but I didn't knowhow to have that choice or to
speak on that choice, or evenknow what my truth was.
It was almost like, ok, this isgoing to happen, I know it's
going to happen.
So, in a way, I would take mypower back in.
You know, sex is going tohappen, I'm with this person,

(11:44):
but now I'm going to control thesituation.
So now I'm going to do thingsto them.
I would go into people pleasingmode.
You know I wouldn't carry aboutor care about myself, and that
was how I would almost, in a way, try to take control and power
back in.
That is like, okay, I'm goingto be the sexual dominant force.
Then yeah, and that's my way ofkind of having my yes or you

(12:07):
know say in the matter untilyeah, you know, realizing that
that's maybe not always what Iwanted in that moment.
And yeah, especially with, like, the consent piece, I was
always focused on the otherperson and I don't want to
embarrass them or am Iperforming right?
Or, you know, like I don't wantto make them feel uncomfortable

(12:28):
or bad.
So I would always end upsacrificing my wants and my
needs in that situation.
You know, even when it comes toorgasming, if, like, the guy
doesn't like going down on agirl, I'd be like, oh, that's
okay, you know, let me go downon you and just completely being
not connected to my body oranything in that, and alcohol
for a very big portion of mylife was a way to, I think, kind

(12:51):
of put those thoughts aside andjust be more in the moment, in
a way, and be able to focus onthat other person, whether I
wanted to be with them or not,and, yeah, just kind of dive in
and not feel myself and justkind of let whatever happens
happens and kind of just numbout.
I think really.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense to me.
I know that the idea of sayingyes was really tricky and I also
know it took me a long time tofigure out how to say no, and
while I was kind of like, um,I've always been someone that
sort of intimidated people liketo some degree, even since I was
a kid.
Really, yeah, it was just funny.

(13:32):
Yeah, I know they think I'm sonice, but you're like the
sweetest person I know.
I mean, hey, thanks.

Speaker 3 (13:38):
I like to think that you're tall, gorgeous and
extremely intelligent.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
So I can see oh, thank you very much, yeah, but
so I, you know, felt like Ididn't really know.
Once somebody got to a certainpoint with me of getting started
like a certain level ofphysical intimacy, I didn't
really know how to stop it.
And I kind of felt like, okay,well, now they've put their arm
around me, now they've startedkissing me and now I'm kind of

(14:04):
stuck Was sort of how I felt,and that was in the case of
pretty much almost always beingdrunk in those situations.
Yeah, yeah, which is.
You know not how I like to playit nowadays, but it was how it
started.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yeah, unfortunately, you know, and I think we both
can relate, and having to gothrough those experiences and
those emotions and thosefeelings to kind of figure out
what we want and what we can say, and I don't know how many
times yeah, I would almost getinto like this kind of fight or
flight numb phase and thingswould and I just kind of let
things happen to me and thingswould and I just kind of let

(14:45):
things happen to me and I'd belike I don't know how to stop
this.
I know it's happening.
Or you know, even there was onetime, um, you know, after
during college, coming down tothe clubs, um, and you know, go
into an after party somewhere inSeattle and you know we're
drinking probably a little bitof Molly, and you know, lying on
the couch next to someonetrying to sleep and I just feel,

(15:06):
you know, like a hand go undermy skirt and I just kind of
freeze and you know I don't evenhave a moment to even think is
this what I want?
Is this what I want to do?
Everyone's kind of asleep.
I don't want to ruin the vibeor make a scene and you know,
just feeling really awkward andtrying everything I can to kind
of like hide it in a way, butlike totally not thinking about
myself or like what I want orwhat I need in that moment, and

(15:28):
just kind of how can I just makethe situation?
Just chill and kind of hide andgo away?

Speaker 1 (16:08):
I very much relate to that as well.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
I think for me it was kind of a trauma response that
was this compliance responsefrom other times in my life that
, especially once alcohol gotadded, it became extra hard to
figure out what I truly wantedin that moment and it became
very tricky, became very tricky.
Um for sure, yeah, so Iunderstand that.
Yeah, and I remember, you know,in college I think 90% of my I
mean I had good sex, like Idefinitely had sober sex, of
course you know what I mean.
I thought I was this very an M,you know, kind of with the
right people and that I can bevulnerable.
And you know I had a long-termboyfriend in college for the
first couple of years and youknow I mean fucked like rabbits.

(16:30):
It was great.
You know, I mean most of thatwas sober.
But then there was kind of aperiod where, after a pretty
traumatic event that I wentthrough, I just had no.
It turned into self-loathingand self-hatred and just being
careless with myself and my body, and you know going to parties
and getting blackout drunk andwaking up in beds that I don't

(16:53):
even remember.
You know waking up in a houseand you know, like no clothes on
and having no recollection ofthe moment or even how I got up
to that point and it became kindof a regular occurrence and
just, I mean, I almost felt likeI had a death wish and I did
not care what happened to mybody and in some ways it became

(17:15):
kind of this empowering.
Oh, you know, I'm this sexualforce and trying to fill a void
and almost, you know, in my ownway, trying to control, you know
, men and seducing this.
But it was also I was feeling, Ithink, you know, almost
imprisoned by my own triggersand that this is who I'm
supposed to be, this is how mylife is supposed to be.

(17:35):
You know, this is who I've beentold I am from a very young age
and being that kind of highlysexualized person, and you know,
I'm just like this is my lifeand you know, I didn't even know
that you could have, you know,these amazing euphoric, amazing,
you know sex and it's just like, is this kind of what?
It is?
All right, I guess.
You know, yeah, this is whereI'm at and yeah, just throwing

(17:59):
myself kind of in any situationto numb out, and yeah, I don't
know, just to forget, you know,things that happened at a really
young age and it was the onlything I felt like I had control
over.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I think that this is where thepractice of consent which I'm
going to get a little bit on asoapbox comes in, really huge
For people who have sexualtrauma.
And you don't know if you're ata party and one of us is one of
the people that you're going totry and initiate things with.
We may or may not be, but whenyou start touching us without

(18:40):
asking, you can engage acompliance response.
That is not about our desire todo something with you.
It is about our desire tosurvive.
The situation at sort of likeour amygdala is taking over and
it's a completely differentthing.
And it took me years of havinghookups with people where some

(19:04):
of them I wanted and I wouldlike and I'd have some regret
and weird feelings about becauseof my upbringing, but sometimes
I'd be like why did I do that?
I didn't want to do that.
I never wanted it, I didn'twant it the whole time, but I
never said no because I feltlike the safest thing to do is
to just go along with it.
So when people get weird aboutasking for consent to kiss

(19:26):
someone or asking for consent toput your arm around somebody,
these are the reasons why you dothat?
Because you can unknowinglytrigger someone into
disassociation, into acompliance response, which
almost certainly is not yourintent as the initiator.
But if you don't directly ask,pause the action.

(19:48):
Directly ask, that's what canhappen, and then that person is
left with a lot of regret andshame because they weren't in
control and and and the personwho's initiating might have
thought they were, but theyweren't, and this is why consent

(20:09):
is so fucking important, Yep.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
I 100% agree with that and I think that's a really
good point in terms of, yeah,it can be something as simple as
putting a hand on the leg andyou know, I would say 90% of the
time there's no ill intent.
But just having that extra stepof hey, is this okay?
Yes, at least allows the personto stop and think and be like,
hmm, is this what I want?

(20:32):
Because once you kind of gointo that violating territory
and I know for myself, you know,depending on the situation and
where my headspace is at, canreally go into that freeze, yes
and numbness and out of bodyexperience, and then just kind
of letting it happen, which thencan signal, you know, oh, other
things might be OK.

(20:53):
And you know, and thencompletely almost losing the
ability to be able to speak upfor myself in that it's.
I mean, I'm still kind ofstruggling with that and it's
taken me years to be able topractice that no, or even just
language of.
You know, maybe not right nowor I'm just, I'm not feeling it
and you know, not trying to takeon the other person's feelings

(21:13):
of, oh well, if I say no,they're going to feel rejected
and this and that.
So consent, especially in aparty setting, can be very
tricky Because, you know,especially in like our lifestyle
community, you know it'ssomething that we heavily talk
about before every party.
You know there's the consentrules and you know usually a

(21:34):
person in place that you cancome and talk to if you see any
behavior.
But even in that sometimesthere's kind of this false sense
of consent where you know, areyou even in the headspace to be
able to say yes or no?
Or you know kind of own youractions and behavior, especially
if you're on substances orMolly or other drugs or whatever
.
And yeah, it can get reallytricky, especially for the other

(21:55):
person to feel that out becausethey don't know you, they're
not in your head.
And I would say my you knowrule of thumb if you're having a
body reaction or it's not afuck yes, right away, just don't
even do it, it's a fuck no yep,it's not a fuck.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
Yes, it's a fuck no exactly absolutely yes, but
that's really hard to get to thepoint where you can take
ownership of that for yourself.
Um and I think it's an areawhere people who tend to pursue
more sexually can do a lot ofwork is to say, if what I'm not
seeing from somebody, if I'm notseeing a fuck yes, which is

(22:34):
enthusiastic, informedparticipation anything short of
that is a question mark, yep,and is not sufficient.
Yeah.
So I'm really glad that came upbecause that's a that's.
That's been a big journey forme and I feel like I've gone for
me in my personal journey.

(22:54):
I've gone through to the pointof all the no's and figured out
the no and now I'm back at thepoint of like having trouble
saying yes because I'm such anautomatic no.

Speaker 3 (23:06):
You kind of went on the other end of the spectrum.
I did.
Yeah, I totally relate withthat.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
No, no, no, no, no.
And I'm like, but wait, but Iactually wanted to do that.
Fuck, what did I just say no toDamn it.
You know which I mean?
I would err on the side of noanyways.
Yeah, but it's tricky and ittakes a while to learn yourself,
so.
So this is where interrupting.
A lot of people have thisfeeling that asking for consent

(23:29):
is ruining the moment.
But the ruining of the momentis really just interrupting that
domino, that cascade that takespeople out of agency.
And so when you say I'm goingto interrupt this moment very
intentionally to say, do youwant to do this with me here now
?
If the answer is yes, then wecan re-engage, but if not, super

(23:53):
easy to walk away, yep.

Speaker 3 (23:54):
Right, yeah, I agree, I mean I've seen, actually, you
know, I mean I've seen it kindof done in the right way and I
mean, is there even a right wayor the wrong way?
I mean the wrong way is noconsent at all, but you know,
I've luckily, you know, hadfriends come up or you know, if
they see I'm a littleintoxicated, just like checking
in, hey, are you okay?
You know, and sometimes havinga person that you trust, that

(24:16):
knows you really well, yeah, andjust like where are you at
right now, you know, and eventaking that again time for
yourself and in my I would say,substances journey, I would say
substances journey I did nothave that time at all.
I mean substances were allowingme to just say yes all the time
in times that I didn't want tosay yes.
And it wasn't until 2018 when Iwent sober from alcohol the

(24:45):
first time for about three years.
And you know, being in thelifestyle community about 10
years ago was a really kind ofhealing and eye-opening
experience for the first fewyears in terms of always kind of
feeling like I was this sexualbeing and but feeling guilty or

(25:08):
shamed about it.
You know, being teased inschool or being called a slut or
this and that.
But I always had this feelingthat like no, it's my body, it's
my choice and I enjoyed it.
And so, going into thiscommunity, it was just like wow,
I can finally be open, I canfeel free with no judgment and,
you know, really leaned in hard,I can feel free with no

(25:30):
judgment and, you know, reallyleaned in hard, and it was
amazing to find otherlike-minded individuals.
But, just like any othercommunity, there's a lot
attached to that and so, youknow, with parties every weekend
and drinking and substances,and I was finding myself kind of
getting back into that mode of,you know, being intoxicated
every time I have sex at partiesand it was just kind of leaving

(25:51):
me feeling empty and almostkind of feeling like an object,
like the shiny new toy you knowin this community and just, you
know, being passed around.
And it wasn't always negative.
You know, I had some reallygood experiences and oh, wow,
people can do this and peoplecan do and my body can do that.
This is great, you know, kindof unlocking all these new kinks

(26:15):
.
But it wasn't until I went soberthat my relationship with sex I
found had changed and Iremember, you know, talking with
my therapist and going to theseparties and having no interest
in wanting to hook up and kindof almost going like you were
talking about that pendulum onthis opposite end of just being
so I wouldn't say like turnedoff, but just like not knowing

(26:37):
what I want.
It was the first time beingsober in my life and I was
rediscovering my relationshipwith sex and what that means,
what that means, and she hadsaid something around.
Well, you know, maybe you'relearning, you're not actually
that person that you've kind ofput on, this persona that you
want to be.
And now it's your first timebeing able to be empowered and

(26:57):
not be intoxicated, sit withyour body, see how you feel and
really check in.
And so for the first couple ofyears, like I, you know, I'd
have maybe sex here and there,but I was so picky, you know I'd
go to these parties and it wasmore about connection and, you
know, deep conversations and itreally I found out it took me a
lot to be able to actually havesex with someone when I was

(27:19):
sober and it wasn't that I was a, not a sexual being, when I
feel comfortable, supported andsecure, extremely, you know
everything's on the table Um,but I just it was realizing that
I was putting myself in thesesituations that weren't giving
me that, and I was using drugsand alcohol to um to think that

(27:39):
I was okay with those things,and so it was a really
transformative experience.
Um, it was probably the firstperiod in my life where, you
know, I wasn't having a lot ofsex and the sex I was having.
You know, my first couple sobersex experiences were a little
awkward and, you know, kind ofshy and like do I even know what
I'm doing?
Most of the time would bepretty supportive or they'd be

(28:21):
like, oh wow, I normally have adrink or two to kind of you know
.
But ended up creating a lot ofdeeper connections and
experiences in terms of, yes,I'd like to do that again or no,
I don't, and building that kindof toolbox and language to be
able to say that because I knewit's what I really wanted.
There was no alcohol or drugsto cloud my mind.
I knew deep inside that is whatI want or no, that's not what I
want.
And it was a very transformativetime for me.

Speaker 1 (28:37):
That is, that's important, that's huge, and I
think there are so many peoplewho are like in their forties,
right now, today, who stillaren't sure what they want if
they're not drunk, I thinkalcohol.
Alcohol is the most commonsubstance that people use for
sex, and I think that that issuch a hugely awesome learning

(29:01):
curve to have under your belt,of like engaging this process
through sobriety and and reallydiscerning what's happening at
the center of me.
Do I want this or do I not wantthis?

Speaker 3 (29:14):
yeah, yeah, definitely.
I mean, and I even had itallowed me to a lot of
reflection on, like pastrelationships.
And there was one relationshipI had where I didn't realize
I've to have sex, like I wasdating them, I needed alcohol
Like I would say, almost 95% ofour sexual experiences I was
drinking just to be able to havesex with this person and I'm

(29:38):
like that's horrible, that's notthe kind of life or
relationships I want.
And so, you know, being sober,I definitely kind of went on
like I don't want to say likescared of sex, but kind of
because a lot of my experienceswere just so careless and not
what I wanted.
And so it really took me a longtime to kind of find my voice

(30:00):
within that.
And once I, you know, just likeanything, you keep practicing
it right.
You know you keep baby steps.
Anything, you keep practicingit right.
You know you keep baby steps.
And it got actually reallyexciting to a point when I did
want to share that with someone,or my intentions.
Going to parties, you know,sober would be like okay,
tonight I'm feeling a littlefrisky, Like I am taking

(30:21):
ownership of my feelings.
Right, this is what I want, youknow, if it doesn't happen,
great.
But like I am totally okay withwhat happens tonight because I
am choosing that and I'm 100%confident in my ability and
decision.
Because I'm sober, I'm in tunewith my body, I know how I feel
and I've been practicing sayingno and of course there, you know
, are still moments where I'd belike, you know someone comes up

(30:44):
and be like can I kiss you?
And I'm like, uh, and even ifit's taking me that long to say,
uh, okay, I've learned, Then,no, it's not a fuck, yes.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
Exactly.
If it's not a fuck yes, it's ano yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
So, yeah, it's been a really interesting journey in
that and you know, and of coursenow you know, okay, sober from
alcohol, but you know I'd stilluse like Molly and other things
like that, and I think thosesubstances were different for me
in terms of almost alcoholwould allow me to leave my body
and be numb and not feel and befocused on the other person and

(31:22):
just kind of, you know, numb outand just disassociate from the
situation.
And you know, molly, or thingslike that would be a very
internal how is my body feeling?
You know, what do I like, thesetouches like this and that, and
so you know sometimes, and Ithink too at least, the way it
works with my brain.
You know, it heightens emotions, it heightens feelings, it

(31:45):
heightens the euphoria andexperience.
But it wouldn't cloud myself ina way where I could still have
some sort of judgment in termsof yes, this is what I want, or
no, it's not what I want.
You know I wouldn't use it toput myself in situations I
didn't want.
I would use it to explore insituations I do want.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
Let me tell you a story.
I was really excited to buy anew clit-sucking toy.
So I went to the world'slargest online sex toy retailer
and I found hundreds of optionswith no indication which ones
are quality and which ones areright for me.
So I had to make my best guess.
I ordered the toy, got it inthe mail, super excited to try

(32:26):
it, and bummer, it's way toostrong, even on the lowest
setting, turns out.
I can't even use it and Iwasted 80 bucks.
So I throw it in my nightstandand a couple months later I look

(32:46):
to discover mad.
I decided to start my own sextoy company, juicy.
At Juicy, we sell a highlycurated selection of body safe
sex toys and we test them sothat we can give you all the
deets about whether or not it'sright for you, such as how
strong or gentle it is, how loudis it and how easy is it to

(33:10):
operate.
So support this podcast and buyyour next sex toy at
GetJuicycom.
That's G-E-T-J-O-O-S-Icom,getjuicycom, g-e-t-j-o-o-s-icom.
Yes, which is where is theother side?
I think and I mean I'm notspeaking for everybody, but I

(33:33):
also relate to that sense ofalcohol being sort of a terrible
sex drug.
Out of all the things you canchoose.
Alcohol definitely for me andmy experience, and it sounds
like for you in your experienceacts to interfere between me and
myself a bit, which isdifferent than something that
heightens the experience, right.

(33:56):
So some substances are verymuch heightening.
You have psychedelics that aresuper heightening.
You have other types of drugsthat can be very heightening,
and then you have alcohol, whichis sort of deadening and I
think it's yeah, I agree, Iconcur, I think that that is a

(34:19):
big shift that I haveexperienced in terms of having
used way less alcohol now inthis chapter of my adulthood
than I did when I was younger,and being like I haven't hooked
up with someone and regretted itin years and years and years
now, but I no longer get reallydrunk in order to do that.

(34:40):
That's great.

Speaker 3 (34:41):
And if there are substances on board.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
There are other ones that are things where I'm
looking for like a greatexperience and I want to
heighten it, you know, which isa really different thing.
I would say so for me the firsttime.
I didn't realize this until ithappened, so I feel kind of
horrible even saying it.
But the first time I had sobersex was with my ex-husband.

(35:04):
The first time that we had sexwith my ex-husband, the first
time that we had sex, and Iintentionally waited like four
or five weeks with him, becauseI knew I had this pattern at the
time of rushing into sex andthen avoiding somebody and I
really liked this guy and Ididn't want to do that.
So I was like we're going to doeverything but sex as long as I
can possibly hold out, andthat's what we did.

(35:27):
And then I had sober sex forthe first time and it was really
interesting because, yes, I wasmore nervous, but it was also
so much more pleasurable becauseI could feel my body and I had
an orgasm and I, like you know,we're so often drunk sex doesn't
result in orgasms.

(35:47):
Nope.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
Yeah, and it doesn't result for me, yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
Not for me, and it doesn't result in you feeling
yourself in the same way, and Iwas like wow, so this is like
what everybody else has beendoing the whole time.
This is pretty cool, oh my gosh.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think it was interestingbecause for the first few years,
my ex and I had sober sex allthe time and then, later on,

(36:11):
when sex became reallyinfrequent, we got back into
that pattern where we would bedrunk to have sex.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
Using the substances to kind of get there.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yeah, because we had, our familiarity with each other
was decreased because weweren't having sex as often, and
so our comfort with each otherwas decreased.
Because we weren't having sexas often, and so our comfort
with each other was decreased.
Because we weren't having sexas often and so to get over that
, we were using alcohol, andunfortunately, what that meant
was the sex wasn't as good whenwe would have it.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
Yeah, I can totally relate to that in a few
relationships I had where, yeah,just kind of the is it the fast
burn?
You know you have the slow burn, but then it's just like hot
and heavy in the beginning andyou know you can't wait to just
rip each other's clothes off andit would mainly be sober.
And then it would come to apoint where, yeah, you know,
issues getting in the way, kindof lack of connection, you know

(37:02):
the relationship kind of takinga turning point and almost being
like scared on how to initiate,like how you know, can I touch
you?
Do you like that?
Like you know, almost I wouldget so in my head of like I
don't want to do anything wrong,or that rejection, and
sometimes for me the alcoholwould take away the fear of
rejection Definitely and wouldjust allow me to.

(37:23):
Just well, I'm going to do thisanyway because you know I have
the liquid courage and theconfidence, yeah, the
impetuousness of alcohol, yeah,versus being sober and kind of
insecure and anxious and unsureand being in the other person's
head and not knowing what'sgoing on.
It would kind of take thatlayer away.
But then also it kind ofdistracts them from the issues

(37:45):
that are going on.
It's like, ok, you can havealcohol and OK, I'm being all
you know confident and want toget in this and we're doing it.
But it's also like, is that theright thing we should be doing?
Is that the way to bridge that?
You know like, yeah, it kind ofdistracts from the real problem
at hand.
I feel like, or it can, it can.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
For sure I think like .
So why do we use substances forsex?
There's obvious reasons.
There's obvious benefits becauselife is fucking hard and we
want to let go of the stressright, Like we want to stop the
fucking train in our head that'slike chugga chugga, chugga,
chugga through, like all of ourproblems and all that shit.
We want to stop that whichmakes sense, we want to lose our

(38:25):
inhibitions and we want to lose.
I think this is where I suspectthis is probably the biggest
draw to sex on alcohol is theloss of self-consciousness, that
sense of like questioningeverything that you do, looking
at yourself from the outside,all of that, and that alcohol

(38:49):
kind of has a way of turningthat off.
Unfortunately, it turns otherthings off too, but it does that
and I think that's why so oftendate night includes a bunch of
drinks.
For couples even people who'vebeen married for 20 years.
You know date night includes abunch of drinks.
Yeah, because this cripplingself-consciousness that we

(39:10):
develop can come out and likestop us before we even get
started.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
Yeah, no, I totally understand that and can relate
with that as well.
You know, as someone that hasjust chronic anxiety and I live
in my head all the time,sometimes it's just nice to have
that drink.
You know, that can feel likejust a breath of fresh air.
You know, I can just be in themoment and not living in my head
and questioning every littlethought, especially, you know,

(39:35):
at parties or even on, you know,dates or being with someone for
the first time.
It's just like that constantvoice never stops.
And so, yeah, having a fewdrinks, you know, you kind of
loosen up, let your hair down abit and then you know you can
kind of go in that direction,not needing a crutch to get to

(40:09):
that point and trying to trainand learn and be with myself
enough that I didn't need adrink to like, turn off and take
a breath, and at least for me,you know, coming from a long
line of alcoholics and having myown issues with alcohol, hence
why I went sober, you know Ididn't have that choice anymore.
I had nothing, I couldn't turnto anything, and so I had to
learn to just sit and be like,okay, I'm feeling anxious,

(40:33):
that's okay.
I'm feeling awkward anduncomfortable, that's okay.
Can I get to a place of havingsex with this person?
I could Do.
I want that, I don't know.
So you know it's just kind ofhaving those conversations with
yourself and being okay.
I think in learning how to bebe OK and uncomfortable and not
needing the crutch and that'snot, you know, the way for

(40:55):
everyone.
Like I have some friends thatcan have a drink or two and
they're totally fine and turn itoff and go home.
You know they can have a glassof wine at the end of the day.
That is great.
I, unfortunately, am not thatperson and it's taken me years
to be able to accept that and ithas, you know, hindered and
affected a lot of my sex lifeand just my relationships with
people in general.
Yeah, but you know I've alsofound within that, trying to

(41:20):
kind of manage myself withalcohol, turning that also to
drugs and using substances withsex and using it in a way to
enhance but not distract, yes,and to help create that
experience and that connectionand you know it was kind of
getting to that higher levelwith a person and, yeah,
creating more of, I think, anexperience with someone versus,

(41:45):
you know that, uncomfortable,you know, distraction, needing
to disassociate, turning off myhead piece.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
It's sort of tolerating versus something else
.
Yeah, I'm not sure what theother end of the spectrum is,
yep, but I do think with alcohol, sometimes what it's doing is
it's letting you tolerate asopposed to like, really savor
and enjoy.
Yes, you know, yeah, so I Idefinitely relate to that for

(42:16):
sure.
I think um I've had experienceswith sex and psychedelics
specifically can be superfucking fun it.
It can be like ultimate crazy,weird, fucking awesome sex for
me.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Love it, love it.
I'm here for it.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
And I think it's because, for me, the times that
I've had sex on psychedelicsit's been with someone who I
really trust or people, multiplepeople, who I really trust,
yeah, and because when you're inthe space, the mental space
that psychedelics create is notnecessarily conducive to like
stranger danger.
So it's not the same as alcoholthing, but for me, with

(42:56):
psychedelics, it's this likekind of magical, ethereal,
otherworldly experience that youcan share with somebody, where
we can both be like knowing thatlike your brain is creating
whatever the hell images it isand mine is doing its thing, and
like we'll be talking to eachother while it's happening, like
here's what I'm seeing, whatare you seeing, you know, and
it's like, oh yeah, it's superinteresting and really intimate

(43:18):
because you're sharing whateveryou know your brain is
manufacturing based on thepsychedelics, which is really
cool.
So I think sex and psychedelicscan be really intimate.
I think I would not recommendit for people that you're not
close to.
I think it would be weird asfuck to feel that type of
connection with somebody who Ididn't feel safe with.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
I could imagine that Because even just for me
personally doing psychedelics,For me personally doing
psychedelics, you know, just forfun, at a festival, or you know
, wanting to go deeper in mythoughts, or you know, on a
camping trip with friends orwhatever it may be, really takes
me a lot to get to that point,just because of the
vulnerability and how much itcan crack you open, yes, and

(44:02):
leave you.
You know open to thesedifferent energies.
You know open to thesedifferent energies and so if you
are with someone that you don'ttrust or has a certain energy
that can kind of be encroachingon yours, it can turn your trip,
you know, real bad, real quick.
For sure, so you know it'sdefinitely, yeah, making sure
that you are in that safe spaceyou are with.
You know, for, I think, maybeless seasoned, you know people

(44:24):
that you know have their, havetheir mechanisms and their plan
in place for when they do drugs.
But I just know, yeah for me,and it sounds like you
personally that yeah, definitely.
I think in a more intimatesetting I agree that it would
have to be with someone that I'm, you know, super close with and
you know, actually, was it lastsummer, did I have this?
Yeah, I think there was kind ofa psychic, my one of my first

(44:48):
psychedelic.
Like sexual experiences and Iwould say psychedelics in
general sometimes can be alittle a lot for me, just
because of how much they openand you know everything that's
going on and just life and theworld and like where's my mental
space and not knowing you knowwhat's going to come up, know

(45:09):
what's going to come up and youknow letting go and almost kind
of changing that focus from inmy head but to my body and the
person's body, yeah, and likegetting into that kind of cool,
weird space where you're justlike melding and everything's
melting and, like you know, thefeelings are heightened and it's
just like you, kind of becomethis intertwined, just like
magical goo of human awesomenessthat you're feeling and
experiencing it can be amazing.

(45:29):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
And very spiritual, almost.
It's almost like thepsychedelics allow you to like.
Drop the artifice ofseparateness.

Speaker 3 (45:37):
Yes, yes, in this way , the ego, yes, the ego is gone
and you're just like we are, twoenergetic beings exchanging,
and it becomes, and I sound likea fucking hippie saying this
Love it beings exchanging.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
And it becomes and I sound like a fucking hippie
saying love it but it can becomethis really fucking cool
experience where you're justlike experiencing and
experimenting with each other onthis sort of like magical
playground of whatever yourbrains are creating in that
moment and as long as you feelsafe, it can be like it like a

(46:07):
really fucking dope experience,yeah, and really beautiful.
Yeah, really beautiful.
So I mean, if they're legal inyour state, I encourage you to
have sex on psychedelics withpeople who you feel really
trusting with.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
Because I think you'll be like whoa, like we
just like fucking melded, youknow, and like it's so cool and
you can learn a lot aboutyourself too, and I think it
allows your brain to open up ina way and even create a
vulnerability with yourself,like I've even known.
You know playing with my ownself on, you know psychedelics

(46:40):
or Molly or just drugs that youknow kind of create a more
heightened euphoric um, you knowkind of comfortable feeling
where I've been able to even godeeper with myself and heal kind
of my own body in ways ofbridging that connection,
because I used to be verydistance from my body and you

(47:03):
know, like love, having sexdon't care who's in me or
whatever, at a period of my time, but like touching myself,
feeling myself.
I was so almost like scared todo.
And it was a vulnerability Ididn't really feel comfortable
with, yeah, and you know I knewthe quick things to get an
orgasm, but like I didn't reallytake the time to kind of just
play with myself, love myself,you know like, and figure out

(47:30):
how I like to be touched, how Ilike to be you know anything
happening to me and so, yeah, Ithink you know, especially with
kind of where the medical fieldis going and psychedelics, and
even you know microdose therapy.
I think you know in the rightcircumstances and definitely
doing your research and knowingwhere your drugs come from.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
Test your drugs.
Please, definitely, please, yes.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
Can be a really beautiful experience.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
Yeah, agreed, I agreed.
I think it does.
It is sort of that ego deaththing, and not just between you
and another person, but betweenyou and yourself too, and I
think it can be like reallymagical and interesting thing.
But I would say like there'sinteresting.

(48:13):
So there's thoughts around theworld about whether or not
someone can consent if they'reon a substance.
Of course, this depends oneverything like all the
variables.
Uh, I think let's let's take aminute to talk about how we know

(48:34):
if we are ready to give consentwhen we're on substances.
Great california has someinteresting sexual consent laws
which are sort of um birthed outof the number of universities
that they have there and howmuch sexual misconduct and

(48:55):
sexual assault is an issue oncollege campus, and so they came
up with their own frameworkaround sexual consent, which is
very nuanced and veryinteresting, and it has to do
with consent and intoxication inpart.
And so the law in the state ofCalifornia is when a person is

(49:18):
intoxicated to the point wherethey cannot understand the
nature of the act or give legalconsent which they don't define,
any sexual activity with thatperson may be considered rape
under California law.
So this is an interesting pointbecause I think on its head.

(49:42):
I like this.
I think that this removesambiguity.
It says if somebody is losingconsciousness at any point, if
someone is drunk to the point of, or high to the point of, not
understanding what's going onaround them, that that is not
consent and that consent cannotbe garnered in that circumstance

(50:04):
.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
Yeah, stance.
Um, absolutely, yeah, yeah, andso I think it's an interesting
thing because this is actuallyunique to california.
This is not typically the lawin most states.

Speaker 3 (50:21):
Um, yeah, and so it is something where let me find
the little spot where theydefine, which makes sense,
because I mean we see it in thenews all the time of court cases
and oh well, she said yes orthis and that, and so yeah, it
gets.
It can get really tricky.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
And what I think they do a really good job of is
getting rid of that whole.
She didn't say no means it'snot rape.
Every woman I know has been insituations where they couldn't
say no.
But if something were toproceed, or if something did
proceed, it would have been orwas rape, and I think that's

(51:11):
actually some brilliance behindit.
This could deprive women ofsexual agency in terms of being
on substances and consenting tosexual activity.
And although you know it soundslike the law gets more specific

(51:32):
than I initially thought thatit did, what I really like about
the law is this California lawis clear that consent must be
ongoing, enthusiastic andinformed.
It cannot be obtained throughforce, threats or manipulation.
Consent is a voluntary,affirmative agreement to engage

(51:53):
in sexual activity and I thinkthat ongoing, enthusiastic and
informed yes, those are veryimportant keywords.
Huge, like huge, huge Likethat's the yes means yes school
of thought, right?
Yep, yeah, so I know that Ilike to engage in substance use.

(52:14):
I think that it's fun, itenhances my life in a lot of
ways, I enjoy it and sometimesit really enhances my sex life,
and I know that if I amenthusiastic and informed and I
am ongoingly consenting that itis something I want to do.
I've never had a situation thatmet that criteria, in which

(52:34):
afterward I felt like I wasviolated.
Yep, but yeah.
So I guess I'm just curiouswhat your thoughts are on that.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
No, I think I mean yeah, those words I think are,
as you said, huge and I thinkbrings up a really good point
when you are engaging withsomeone or anyone you know, in
sexual acts, on substances, tocontinuously check in, yes, and
because anything can change, youknow, especially if someone

(53:05):
could be a little bit sober.
Maybe you take some drugs ordrinking at the beginning of the
act and that can always change.
And I think it's also importantthat saying yes once doesn't
mean yes always.
And so having that continuouscheck in and just like you know,
is this OK, how are you feeling?
You know, reading body language,keeping that open communication

(53:26):
and dialogue, and if it doesget to a point where whoever you
are with stops answering orisn't able to, or just the
situation changes, or evenyou're not even able to, you
know, to have a safe word orstop it, or you know kind of
just check in and be like, okay,you know might have to stop
this right now or take a beat ortake a break or whatever.

(53:47):
You need to not get yourselfinto a space where it was yes in
the beginning and then maybesomewhere it got a little
muddled, maybe, you know, theperson got a little too high and
then maybe somewhere it got alittle muddled, maybe, you know,
the person got a little toohigh and then afterwards they're
remembering that high piece andthey're like, oh, I don't
remember what happened, and thenthat can create that confusion
and did that person takeadvantage when?

(54:09):
no, you know, there was clearconsent in the beginning, but
something changed.
You know throughout, yes, thatsituation for sure, which is
where.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
So I'm a big believer in consent before any
escalation.
So if you're going to go fromfirst base to second base,
second base to third base, thirdbase to home run, you need to
be getting consent at eachfucking step, and it's a little

(54:42):
controversial because there area lot of people who are
uncomfortable with being asked,and I personally feel like,
generally speaking, those peopleneed to grow up.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
Yes, I was going to say I have some thoughts on that
.
Yeah, consent is sexy and alsolike it's again, it's like
anything Right If you're notpracticed or have spoken that
way enough to where you have thelanguage and a way of speaking
about it.
It doesn't have to be thisdirect no, I don't like this, or

(55:14):
yes, I like this.
You know, it's all about justthe energy, the feeling it in
the moment.
Like you know, even before I godown on someone, I'm like, hey,
is this okay?
You know you don't have to belike can I suck your dick now
please?
Yeah, exactly, can I now insertmy penis in your vagina?

Speaker 1 (55:31):
you know, like there's a way you can do it.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
That makes it sexy and a little comfortable for
both.
And also it is okay to do it inan awkward way, cause I know
the first couple of times when Iwas kind of building that
language and learning how to sayno, I felt like I was coming
off like such an asshole because, I would just get so anxious
where I just be like, no, I'mokay.
And then I would just be like,oh, you know, feeling like it

(55:55):
came off so direct and so harsh,and they're just like, oh, it's
fine.
But also, you know, I think tocreate a safe community, it's
being OK with hearing no, yes,and also you have a
responsibility as the personthat's asking, being open to any
answer.
You receive Any answer.
And having to be OK with thatand not throwing it back at that

(56:17):
person.
And having to be okay with thatand not throwing it back at
that person, or even if it doeshurt your ego a little bit or
you know you're feelinguncomfortable with it or it
might create an uncomfortablevibe, putting yourself in that
situation, you're already kindof signing up for that
responsibility and for that topossibly be a scenario or an
outcome, totally yeah, and ifyou're not okay with that, then

(56:39):
you probably shouldn't beputting yourself in those
positions to begin with.
It's true.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
And that, I think, is the part that perturbs me a
little bit.
I think you have to be able tosay no before you can say yes,
able to say no before you cansay yes, and in order to have,
it's so much more important thatsomeone's not violated than it

(57:04):
is important that you don't feeluncomfortable.
Your discomfort with beingasked a question that you're
afraid to say yes to or no to,is lower on the priority pole
than someone not being violated.
Yes.
And so I think that it's sort oftime to put on your big human
panties, whichever directionthey go, and understand that

(57:30):
that's sort of a necessity ofplaying the game of having sex
with people I know my partnerhas.
His firm belief is if it's nota fuck, yes, it's a fuck, no.
And I have seen many times whenhe has asked or proposed
something with somebody andthey've been like oh yeah, sure,
and he's like that's not a fuck.

(57:51):
Yes, he's like never mind,let's not, let's do something
else, let's just hang out.
You know, I appreciate that somuch.
Yeah, and like for, for himit's like a really important
thing, and I think it should beimportant for everybody to say
if, if I didn't get a fuck, yes,then we're just not going to go
forward with it yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:12):
and I think too, like you know, just kind of in our,
our community and you know,getting comfortable having, I
think, just those types ofconversations and, um, being
able to, you know just ascomfortably saying no but being

(58:33):
able to hear no, yes, and likeI've actually, you know.
You know I mean as a female, youknow I know there's like
sometimes a lot of males andothers out there that are like,
oh, it's so much easier for youknow female to go to a party and
you don't have to deal withthat kind of language.
And you know I mean I can, I'veseen it, I can understand.
You know, for you know malesand others in that you know kind

(58:54):
of space and environment, thatit is really tricky and they
feel like they're kind ofputting themselves out there and
they're, you know, kind ofholding, you know being upheld
to, having to hold thisresponsibility and and whatnot,
and so, yeah, it can just it canbe really tricky but I think
just being open and honest and,um, yeah, I think, just taking

(59:14):
that responsibility for thesituations you're putting
yourself in and, yeah, and Ithink, checking in with yourself
, you know, if you go to anevent and you're not okay with
the possibility there could be ano, or you're going in with an
intention of needing or lookingfor something.

Speaker 1 (59:29):
you should probably check yourself first, you know,
before putting yourself in thatFor sure and, I think, being
prepared to check in withyourself about if it's a yes or
a no, and I had to learn to dothis.
I was just a normal personliving in society before I
started going to things like sexparties and stuff like that,
and what I learned was I had totake a moment, and so my first

(59:53):
response is whatever is sociallyappropriate in the moment.
I figured that out about myselffirst response is whatever is
socially appropriate in themoment.
I figured that out about myselfand I was kind of bummed out
because I was like I think thatI'm this badass chick, but yet
there's this people pleaserinside of me in these moments
that when someone asks if I wantto do something, if I think
they want to or if I think it'llmake other people happy,
there's some part of me thatwants to just say, yes, you
sacrifice a bit of yourself fortheir happiness.

(01:00:15):
Totally, and I was like, fuckman, I have that too.
God damn it.
God fucking damn it.
I thought I was more badassthan that.
I mean, you're pretty damnbadass, but like it took me a
while to figure out, like, forme personally, what I do is, now
that I've had more experience,if someone proposes something to
me sexually, I literally stopeverything and I kind of close

(01:00:38):
my eyes for a second and I askmyself the question and I ask
what I'm looking for is is mybody going toward this person or
away from them?
Oh, I love that, yes, yes, isthat toward or?
away in response to the thing,and if it's toward, then I then
I might just be like yes, ifit's away, then it's a big no.
But like I had to learn to likebe comfortable pausing the

(01:01:04):
action, making everyone a littleuncomfortable, that like it's
not going to just be like, ohyeah, sure, everything's great.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
Nope, I got to check in with myself.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
I don't want to regret this.
Yeah, so I stop, close my eyes,imagine the question and the
person, and if I want to leaptoward them, then it's a yes for
me, and if I want to leap away,then it's a no.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
Yeah, no, I love that .
I think that's a great practice.
I actually was having aconversation yesterday with a
friend of mine about you know,kind of doing the body scan and
somatic healing, and one of thethings that they had brought up
was, you know, even startingwith saying your name, you know,
so saying some truths out loudand then seeing how your body

(01:01:45):
reacts and then saying somethinglike my hair is blonde, you
know, and like and lies, andkind of seeing how you're and so
it's almost like your body kindof does this natural pendulum
towards what it wants and whatit doesn't want.
And so taking that time to justkind of check in, feel your
body, do a body scan, and yeah,of course, you know the first
time you do it, you know in asituation or a party and people

(01:02:07):
around, it's going to be alittle awkward.
You're gonna be like I'm takingup so much time, I don't know.
But like you know, it's part ofthe process and learning
yourself.
And I think it's a very powerfuland healing tool and helps you
kind of on that journey to notput yourself in situations you
don't want to be in or haveregrets or have shame.
Yeah and yeah, I think it'ssuper powerful.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, yeah, it's huge for mesince I learned to start doing
that and it's been.
It's not let me down so far,but it does take.
You have to have the.
You know the gumption to belike and I just hold on.
Let me think about that.
No, thank you.
Yeah, yeah, you know yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
Yeah, I can remember there was a few times that I
have done that, or even it waseven simple as a kiss of hey,
can I kiss you?
And I'm like, actually no,thank you, you know.
And they were just like okay,you know, thanks for saying
something.
And also, too, by you beinghonest with yourself, most
people afterwards, after an actor whatever it is, you know,

(01:03:09):
don't want to make you feel bador put you in that place, yes,
and so then they feel, you know,if you come back of like, oh, I
didn't really want to do thator I felt awful, you know, then
that's not, you know, allowingthe other person to make a
decision for themselves as well,and kind of putting them in
this awkward place of like, ah,I violated this person, even
though they told me yes, butthey didn't really mean yes.

(01:03:30):
And now, you know, it just kindof creates this really like,
yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
In a complicated situation where no one you know
from the beginning has illintent, right yeah, and we're
all just trying to navigate thisfucked up life and feelings and
emotions, especially when itcomes to substances, where
people will take advantage ofsubstances being on board and
maybe even if you have the thewisdom and the courage to check
in with yourself and say no,sometimes you get pushed back

(01:04:07):
yeah, I have experienced thatmyself.
Yeah, yeah, you get pushed backand then you're like, oh well,
here I spent five yearsdeveloping the ability to say no
, but I didn't expect someone tobe like but da, da, da, da, and
then you're like fuck, what doI do with?

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
that yes, that's actually yeah, no.
That raises a lot of goodpoints I have yeah, where you're
?
You finally build up theconfidence and it took you so
much amount of time and effortto be able to say it.
And then sometimes someonemight try to coerce you into it
or make justifications or almostconvince you.
You know, like, oh well, butyou know it can be like X, or it

(01:04:47):
won't be that long, or I'mreally good at you know they're
almost trying to like sellthemselves you know, and yeah,
that can be tricky.
Um, I've definitely been stuckin situations like that where
I'm like, well, now what?
Um, and then I don't likesometimes being backed in a
corner to almost have to beforcibly mean or like.

(01:05:08):
I said no.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Or the only way out now is to be like super forceful
.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
Yes, yeah, yeah, and that can be, that can be tough,
and even sometimes in thosesituations I've doubted myself
or I'm not in a place, maybeemotionally, or have the
bandwidth to be able to startthat back and forth conversation
, and so I'll change my no intoa yes and then maybe end up
drinking more or takingsubstances again to put myself

(01:05:34):
back in that disassociativestate.
So I can just move forward,because I don't see a way out.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I've even noticed that I had aninteresting experience, like a
month ago, where I was having aconversation about a friend that
I was deeply, deeply concernedabout and I was not in a good
state to talk about it and itwas too much for me at the time.
It was just too much.

(01:05:59):
And instead of saying I'm not ina good state to talk about this
, I ended up taking more of thesubstance that we were using at
the time, and unfortunately,that resulted in me having like
a meltdown.
But I mean, I'm glad, thoughthat my brain and body were like
uh-uh, we're not cool with thischick.
You can't just override thisshit, you know.

(01:06:21):
But yeah, like sometimes we, ifwe get too much pushback, it's
hard to stick to our guns, and Iknow I have trouble with that
still, and I consider myselfpretty advanced in the no
technology.
And I still have struggle withthat sometimes, and I still have
struggle with that sometimes,and especially, I think this is
where, though, everyone adoptingthat enthusiastic participation

(01:06:44):
as the standard of consent yes,yep, the fuck, yes, or it's a
fuck, no, mm.
Hmm, if you have to talksomeone into something, it's a
fuck, no, yep, right, like.
End of story period.
If you don't know, it's a fuck,no.
Yes, if you story period.
If you don't know, it's a fuck,no.
Yes, if you're like yeah,exactly yes, and it goes.

(01:07:04):
It goes for the person beingasked the question too yeah like
um, would you like to do this?
if it's not a fuck, yes, it's afuck, no, right then then
everybody comes out of that justcleaner and safer and in a
better situation, and I thinkit's just a strongly a best
practice to to have everybodyengage in.
But I know it's.
It's extra tricky when you haveworked so hard to develop this.

(01:07:28):
No, muscle and and substancesare on board and you're like
look at me, I just said the no,I did the thing you know.
And then someone pushes past itand you're like, well, that
wasn't part of the script.
What am I supposed?
You know, yeah.
And then someone pushes past itand you're like, well, that
wasn't part of the script, whatam I supposed to do now?
Yep, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
Yeah, and then sometimes that can be triggering
or put your brain in a state oflike, uh, okay, and then you
can almost go back into thatstate of um, what you're
comfortable with, and cantrigger that fight or flight or
even that freeze where, yeah,you, yeah, you just don't know
what to do.
And so I think it's importantfor both people with consent to

(01:08:05):
you know, be aware of you knowas the person asking or the
person being asked, you knowchecking in on what are your
intentions and I think also alot of this you know.
And with substance use, alcoholuse, you know love, having sex
on substances had a lot of great.
You know experiences on it andsober, and you know checking in

(01:08:30):
just before anything or beforeyou go to a party or before you
have a moment of what is yourintention here, you know?
is it just for fun?
Is it?
You know you're looking for anew experience, a new connection
, whatever it may be.
But what is your intention?
And even if you say yes, isyour intention people pleasing,
you know?
Is your intention to distract,fill a void?
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
Maybe your ex is at the party you know like I want
to make them jealous.

Speaker 3 (01:08:54):
Yeah, definitely done that a lot, and so I mean just
you know being clear in whatyour intentions are and also too
, you know, especially in thiscommunity and whatnot, it can be
tricky on.
If I do say yes, then what youknow, are they going to get
attached?
Is there a relationshipinvolved?
You know, and we can go like awhole like rabbit hole down that
, and so I think you know addingto consent when you get past.

(01:09:17):
Yes, you know if you're able toeven having a further
conversation of intentions,absolutely, and you know
checking in and you know whichcan add a layer of safety and
comfortability and you knowwhatever.

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
So yeah, yeah, I agree.
I think intentions is a hugepart.
There was a.
We have a podcast about your hophase, like how?

Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
we all have our ho phases, hopefully multiple.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
Maybe they never end, but um always a ho always a ho,
yes, and so this idea oflearning to communicate what
you're looking to get out ofthat experience, and it could be
like hey, I've actually had myeye on you for a few months.
I'm, I'm really interested.
Let's mess around and see whathappens.
Versus like you know what?
I just want to hook up tonight.

(01:10:01):
I'm not looking for anything.
Right and just being open aboutthat with people is really
helpful in terms of helping themand yourself navigate future
interactions after kind of ahookup.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
Yes, oh that's so important.
Yeah, that's actually somethingI've been trying to work on in
the past like year or two, soafter my sobriety and kind of
took a step back from justparties in general and having
sex in general a little bit, andI would say the last couple of
years slowly kind of gettingback into the dating scene,
getting comfortable having sexagain and, you know, putting

(01:10:39):
myself in those situations andalmost kind of again having to
relearn.
Ok, you know, this newfound meafter these few years and what
is important to me.
And sometimes I just want to goto a party and I'm like I'm not
really here to play, I'm justhere to like hang out with my
friends and talk and have a goodtime and just connect and and
whatnot maybe be a little.
You know, really here to play,I'm just here to like hang out

(01:10:59):
with my friends and talk andhave a good time and just
connect and and whatnot Maybe bea little, you know, voyeuristic
and just kind of watch.
You know, if I have consent,yeah, and sometimes I'm like no,
you know I need, I'm, I'm inthe zone, I want to see what's
out there, Like I'm feeling good, I'm feeling empowered and I
just want to go out and havesome fun.
And yeah, I've been practicing,I think, having those
conversations at one with myselfbefore going out, and then also

(01:11:22):
with people that I'm engagingwith, and I found it to be very
helpful, because then thereisn't that you can be, at least
for myself I can be more in themoment.
I can be more present, I can bemore open, I feel more safe.
I'm not kind of questioning inthe back of my head.
I'm like, oh, you know, how arethey going to take this, or you
know like are they going tocontact me afterwards, or do I?

(01:11:43):
You know, it just kind of, yeah, or maybe I have a crush on
them and then, you know, it kindof allows me to keep my
emotions in check, of gettingyou know too attached or just,

(01:12:04):
you know, being casual orwhatever it is.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
So, yeah, I think intentions are huge.
Yeah, I think they're huge, Iknow, for my partner and I, for
us.
Like when we hook up withsomeone together, we always have
a conversation at the beginninglike, hey, we're here to have
this fun together, this is goingto be great.
And we want to be super clearthat this starts now and it ends
when we walk out of the room.
And when we walk out of theroom, nothing has walk out of
the room.
Nothing has changed between us,so we don't.
This does not entitle you totouch me whenever you want to
yep.
This does not entitle you tostart messaging me this does not

(01:12:26):
entitle you to do these variousthings.
this is like this is of themoment, it's happening here and
now, and so he and I like to putthese very clear boundaries on
those things and be like that'swhat this is for us, and it has
actually been very helpful forus to make it clearer to other
people what you know, what ourboundaries are as a couple.

(01:12:49):
You know if we're going to playyeah.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
Yeah, no, I think that's very healthy and very
important and, yeah, kind ofjust setting the stage and the
expectations I think you knowalso limits any confusion or
expectations and also havingthose conversations and if there
were to be some sort ofbehavior, you know, you've at
least done your part toeliminate any confusion or any

(01:13:15):
you know thing beyond that.
So, yeah, no, I think that'sthat's super important.

Speaker 1 (01:13:20):
Yeah, I think it's helpful to communicate about
that, because there that is oneof the big things I don't know
like as a woman.
One of my things with hookingup with people has been I have
this fear that they will feelentitled to my body after they
hook up with me yes, like once.

Speaker 3 (01:13:35):
You say yes once.
Now it's yes, always, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
Yes, like that.
Me saying yes to hooking upwith you tonight means somehow
that it's okay for you to justcome behind me and put your arms
around me at a party next weekand it's not Because for me,
that can trigger mydisassociative state and that
can trigger things in me thatare not able to fully consent.
Yep, and so I need it to bereally clear, if I'm going to

(01:14:00):
mess around with someone, thatwe know that it stays here.
And I've had some peopleexpress that that is weird to
them Really, yeah, interesting,yeah, and that they you know, or
surprising or you know or weird, but what it is is, it's what
works for me.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
Yeah, you know, and that looks different for each
person Exactly and not one rulefits everyone.
Some, you know, I know somepeople are very like just
touchy-feely in general andthey're okay being touched.
And if they've, you know, hadan interaction or sexual
encounter with you, it's justlike yeah sure you know, free
reign that with you.
It's just like yeah sure, youknow free reign, that's great.

(01:14:40):
Um, that's not.
And also it can look differentfor different people.
You know, to like some peopleyou might have more of a history
of you, have more of afriendship, comfortability and
you've built that over years,versus new people, you know, and
they kind of look at that andthey're like well, why can I do
that?
And it's like cause, it's justa different connection.

Speaker 1 (01:14:53):
It's a different situation.

Speaker 3 (01:14:56):
And so, yeah, that's why always communication,
communication communication iskey.

Speaker 1 (01:15:00):
Communication is so key.
Oh my gosh, over-communicating,yep, over-communicating about
consent, which I know again,like some people find very
annoying.
But I think, grow up, get overit.
Let's all over-communicateabout consent.
It is sexy, it's so much sexier, so like to be talking with
someone intimately and feelingreally drawn to them and to be

(01:15:21):
like can I kiss you?
And then, if the answer is yes,you can both just go full force
into it instead of the awkwardlike leaning in and like, oh
yeah, way into the kiss and it'ssuch a like better experience
and I think when people talkabout consent being awkward, I'm

(01:15:42):
like it's so much more awkwardto not ask for consent and to
engage in that whole likeawkward leaning toward each
other's faces, not sure what'shappening, right yeah, no,
that's funny.

Speaker 3 (01:15:54):
I actually actually reminds me of a time what was I
think it was like a hinge data awhile ago or something.
And you know, just, I've learneda lot of good practices from
being in this community forabout 10 years and I remember
asking him, you know, before wewent into some sexual acts, and
he's seemed so surprised and waslike I have never been asked

(01:16:16):
this before.
I was like, really, and I'veactually even just by me giving
consent or asking others thatmay not be directly tied in the
community, they've learned a lotand been like oh, like that
actually felt good.
You know, because even kind ofoutside of our world, I feel
like that is something thatisn't discussed or talked about
a lot and so by your actions andyour behaviors can really help

(01:16:37):
others to learn that as well.
So you know, it's like lead byexample, which is can be very
powerful, um, and it's notalways going to be perfect and
some people may not like it orbe like you know why would you
even ask that?
Maybe, you know, you'll findout who is your people and who
isn't, you know, depending ontheir level of respect.

Speaker 1 (01:16:54):
Definitely I had a dude who I was Depending on
their level of respect.
Definitely I had a dude who Iwas starting to fool around with
at a sex club actually, and mypartner was messing around with
his partner and he and I weremessing around a little bit and
I think I was like, is it OK ifI take your underwear off, or

(01:17:15):
something?
And he was like, yeah, surethat's fine, or something like
that.
And I was like I, sure that'sfine, or something like that.
And I was like I'm like itsounds to me like you're a
little uncomfortable.
Can you help me understandwhat's going on?
Yeah, you know.
And he was like, oh, no, it's I.
I want you to, but you know.
Then he informed me that hedoesn't go down on girls.
And and he's like I'd love it ifyou went down on me, but I

(01:17:37):
don't go down on girls.
And I was like, well, thank youso much for telling me that,
because I don't go down onpeople that don't go down on me.
So now we know, and I'm so gladthat I sensed his discomfort
and was like, hey, something'soff here.
What's going on right?
Instead of being like, oh, Idon't want to make it awkward
and ask a question.
Well, it's a lot more awkwardto get to the point where you're
like you went down on him andthen he doesn't reciprocate yeah

(01:17:59):
, like fuck you, dude, right.
So then we were able to stay ina space that felt like it could
be reciprocal and good for usyeah, in our interaction yeah,
yeah, so that was good.
Yeah, well, this has beenreally awesome.
I think we could talk aboutthis for like three more hours
there's a lot to unpack there.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
There's so much to unpack yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
But thank you so much for coming and chatting with me
about it.
I really appreciate it.
I think we've gotten to somereally good stuff and I hope
that the audience, thepoddience- has enjoyed it as
well.

Speaker 3 (01:18:31):
Yes, yeah, thank you so much for having me.
I really enjoy talking aboutthis.
I think they're very importanttopics and, yeah, I hope our
conversations today can helpothers and let you know that
you're not alone, and maybe youlearned something today Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:18:45):
You're not alone.
That is, if anything, that isthe mission of this podcast.
You are not alone.
I won't try to sing the MichaelJackson song, but you can just
hear it in your head.
All right, all right, thanksy'all.
Thank you, bye, bye in yourhead.
All right, all right, thanksy'all.
Thank you, Bye, bye.
Thank you for listening to theJuicy Sex Podcast.
If you enjoyed this podcast,kindly click, like and subscribe
.
It really helps us get the wordout and we'll see you next time

(01:19:08):
.