August 25, 2023 • 66 mins
Imagine growing up in an environment devoid of love, support, or even basic respect. Now, imagine the coping mechanisms one might develop in such an environment, only to find that these mechanisms are not beneficial in the long run. That's what we delve into with seasoned psychotherapist, Phyllis Leavitt. From tracing the roots of societal issues back to familial or community-based trauma, we dissect the impact of discrimination, abuse, and neglect on an individual and society at large. We highlight the urgent need for more psychological education to understand and navigate these dynamics, further discussing how these problems are mirrored on a broader scale, threatening societal stability.
Are you aware of the two possible outcomes of an abusive upbringing - learned helplessness or identifying with the aggressor? Phyllis guides us through these dynamics and how they play out within our homes and society. We also touch on the overlooked gender dynamics and their societal impact. The conversation takes a deeper turn as we discuss the imbalance of power between men and women, the pendulum swing between genders, and the need for balanced role models.
But it's not all doom and gloom. We explore the impact of small acts of kindness and love within a community. The role of generosity in healing communities is highlighted, along with the sense of belonging that can deter destructive behaviors. We then switch gears to discuss the long-term effects of emotional pain and discrimination, emphasizing the crucial role of love and care. Finally, Phyllis gives us a sneak peek into her upcoming book that aims to underscore the importance of kindness and respect in transforming situations and lives. Join us as we delve into these pressing societal issues from a fresh perspective.
PHYLLIS Bio and links
I graduated from Antioch University with a Masters’ Degree in Psychology and Counseling in 1989. I co-directed a sexual abuse treatment program called Parents United in Santa Fe, New Mexico until 1991 before going into private practice full time. I have been a psychotherapist treating children, families, couples, and individual adults for over 30 years, and I have worked extensively with abuse and dysfunctional family dynamics, their aftermath, and some of the most important elements for healing. I have also published two books, A Light in the Darkness and Into the Fire, and I have a new book America in Therapy. I live in Taos, NM and I retired from my practice and focused on writing.
My website is www.phyllisleavitt.com
https://www.facebook.com/phyllis.leavitt
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOdxqvDK9N421AZ5TTxqUgQ
https://www.linkedin.com/in/phyllis-leavitt-630179255/
https://www.instagram.com/pel2347/
if you enjoyed the show be sure to check out my info:
https://app.wingcard.io/RO
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, hello, hello everybody.
How are you all doing today?
So we have Phyllis on today.
We had a wonderful chat.
Actually, I had to like stopher halfway through and turn on
the recording button, because wewere just chatting like old
friends and it was amazing.
I learned a lot aboutpsychology and what, what's
really going on in the world andand from her point of view, and
(00:26):
we even challenge each other oncertain ideals, and I like that
.
That was was a goodintellectual tip for tat kind of
thing, and I'm curious what youguys think.
So when you make it to the end,give me a holler in reviews or
messages or YouTube, and we'llgo from there, phyllis.
(00:48):
Like I said, phyllis was agreat conversation and let's
just get right into it.
Welcome to the Josh Bolton show.
We've done interesting andinspiring conversations, and now
your host, josh Bolton.
That's interesting.
(01:10):
So what's the biggest one?
You see, though, that coming upfor?
Like therapy, like trauma wise,is it like hurting the inner
child and stuff like that?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
You know, basically what I think brings people to
therapy in the first place issomething in their present life
is really not working.
Relationships aren't working,their creativity is blocked,
their relationship with theirchildren is suffering, they're
having addiction problems ordepression or mess of anxiety.
So there's it's usually somekind of pain, like when you go
(01:43):
to a doctor.
Something in your body is notworking and it's causing pain.
You go to a doctor to heal andI think people go to therapy for
the same reasons on anemotional, mental level and
generally, what I have foundover the many years that I've
been a psychotherapist is thatthe original wounds happened
long ago for most people, likein something in their family of
(02:07):
origin, in their conditioning,perhaps in their community.
I know a lot of people of color,for instance, have had a lot of
trauma in their community, notnecessarily in their home, but
in their community, beingdiscriminated against as
children on the playground, youknow, which causes massive
trauma, and so it's something inour conditioning that gave us a
(02:30):
message that we're not okay,that there's something wrong
with us or that we can't expectto be helped or loved or
supported by other people, thatwe have grown up maybe with role
models of conflict resolutionthat are highly aggressive or
violent.
You know abuse, neglect on alldifferent levels, you know it
(02:52):
can be anywhere from just notreally getting the love and
support and affirmation you needand you know, just expected to
be quiet and behave to overtabuse in a family or in a
community and exposure toviolence and hatred and
discrimination.
So it can be any of those things, but it's something in our
(03:14):
conditioning that leaves usfeeling less than and then, as a
result of that, most peoplecome up with some kind of way to
cope that hasn't really workedfor them in their adult life.
So you know, one child who'sabused might withdraw and become
sort of a loner, but really weall want love and connection.
(03:37):
So being a loner doesn'tactually work but it feels
protective.
And then at some point thatdefense mechanism breaks down or
the defense might be becomingaggressive and starting fights
with everyone.
But you kind of get what I'msaying that the combination of
what we've been taught aboutourselves that isn't positive
(03:58):
and isn't constructive or kindor loving, and the coping
mechanisms that people developto try to survive At some point
for many people break down andthat causes a lot of pain, but
it also is a possibility.
It creates the possibility forhealing.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
That's amazing.
No, like you're, phyllis.
That description you gave ofthe isolating to the getting
angry that the reason I smiledand kept looking everywhere was
that was me.
I was like the only.
I was the only white kid on aMexican campus, so I got Wow,
daily talk pretty much.
And then when I went to juniorhigh, being quiet wasn't enough,
(04:38):
so I actually started fightingand I'm a big boy, I hit hard
and that's where suddenlyeveryone's like he's a monster.
So it's like crap, what do I donow?
Kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, exactly, and you're doing your best to
survive in an environment thatisn't supporting you to be your
best self and your truest self.
And I took that exactly what yousaid, because I've seen that
over and over and over again inone form after another, working
with hundreds of clients overthe years, that somehow we
(05:10):
develop these coping mechanismsthat we're trying to survive
with that don't actually bringus the love and connection and
belonging and cooperation andvaluing that we all deserve, we
all need and we all deserve.
And the same thing is happeningin our country that there's an
environment that's created bypeople in power, whether it's
(05:33):
the people in power in thebusiness you work in or the
school you go to, or the placeof worship you attend, or the
government on a local or stateor national level, there are
people in power who are actingout those same abusive dynamics
on the people that depend onthem and that they have control
(05:54):
over, with terrible results.
And that's part of the way tostart to understand what's going
on in our country that theseabuse dynamics, these
dysfunctional abuse,discriminatory dynamics that are
coming from the top down aswell as from the bottom up in
many families, that aredysfunctional, is putting our
(06:15):
whole society at risk, andthere's a lot to say about that
and I can tell you more, butplease ask any questions that
you know I was going to actuallyask you, like, what is your
take on that?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Like whether the dynamics you're seeing from the
top down but bottom up yeah,maybe I'm not fully seeing from
a therapist point of view.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Right.
And then I think many peopledon't see, not because you're
blind or ignorant, but becausewe're not taught this like.
We need this psychologicaleducation to understand what's
happening to us.
So there's some big ones, andI'll start with one of the
really big ones that I emphasizein my book, and that is that in
general and of course there areexceptions to every rule, right
(06:57):
, I know, not everybody fits acertain mold of a pattern of
behavior, but in general, whenpeople are harmed, when they're
abused or discriminated againstor their bodies are violated or
they're put down and made tofeel small and unlovable and
unwanted by the people that theydepend on and the people that
(07:21):
have power over them.
So here I'm going to talk aboutan individual family where
abuse takes place, and let mejust say that from my experience
as a therapist and I think many, many therapists could tell you
the same thing abuse andneglect on emotional, physical
and sexual levels in our countryis epidemic.
There are many, many people whoare being hurt and violated in
(07:46):
their own homes by theirmentally unwell caregivers and
parents.
So when that happens to aperson, if there's no rescue
from the abuse and if there's notreatment for it, even if a
person manages to escape from it.
There are two very likelyoutcomes for people and again,
(08:08):
not everybody fits this mold,but many, many people do.
And these are some of thepeople that I have seen over the
years in therapy and workedwith good people, you know
people who mean well, people whoare really trying to survive
the best they can.
But the two main outcomes areeither you have learned to give
(08:30):
up and become passive becauseresisting the abuser or the
abuse has not worked, thatyou're not strong enough to
resist what's happening to you,or resistance might even bring
further abuse and punishment oralienation.
So some people become verypassive and it's called learned
(08:51):
helplessness.
That's a psychological term andthat dynamic will follow many
people out into adulthood, evenwhen they leave home.
That learning is so deep and soprofound that they have that
mindset, that coping mechanismof sort of like freeze and hope
(09:12):
the danger will pass, ratherthan being able to summon up any
appropriate means of protectingthemselves, whether it's from
physical assault or emotionalassault or for just being
misused and exploited by otherpeople.
The other main outcome is theopposite that there are many
people in abusive, neglectfulhomes who will do anything in
(09:36):
their power not to be helpless,and they tend to fall into the
category of those who identifywith the aggressor and they take
on the role model of the peoplewho have hurt them and they
become the hurters themselvesand in some way you could say
they become aggressivelydominating.
(09:56):
And the other half of peoplebecome passive and dominatable,
they're submissive.
And so what happenspsychologically and of course we
see this all the time is thatthey attract each other.
The dominator is attracted tosomeone who will submit and the
(10:17):
person who submits is attractedto someone who dominate them
because that's what they know.
And this is a very, verydangerous dynamic in an
individual home because it willperpetuate abuse that you have
someone who becomes dominatingand you have a partner who can't
stand up to them and protectthemselves and or their children
(10:40):
, and we see this all the timeand you read stories about it,
the horrific stories of that,all the time in the news and on
a societal level.
What it means is that you have,without an interruption and
abuse, then you have more andmore people who fit these two
categories, if there's no helpand there's no rescue, and so if
(11:02):
that kind of abuse and neglectis coming down from the top,
from the highest levels ofauthority in our country, where
certain people are deprived ofresources, they're deprived of
justice, they're deprived ofequal opportunity, and then you
will have more and more peoplewho will fit those two role
(11:25):
models One becomes passive andone becomes aggressive, and you
just have this escalation and,unfortunately, then you have a
setup for the people who haveidentified with the aggressor to
look for positions of authorityin which they can dominate, and
(11:45):
sometimes they run for office,and that's really frightening.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
It is.
It really is.
So is it?
Are we talking more like mayorlevel, congress level or
presidential level?
Or are we talking like this isworldwide, not just America?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Well, absolutely worldwide, but I talk about
America because this is thecountry I'm familiar with,
because I live here and I don'thave the knowledge to talk about
other countries, but clearlythese dynamics are going on all
over the world and historicallyhave been going on.
However, we have greaterweapons now to wipe out our
enemies than we ever had before.
(12:30):
So when we have leaders inpower who are of the aggressive,
dominating nature and fromtheir own wounds that are
unhealed, generations perhaps ofunhealed wounds, then we're at
serious risk of a war that noone could recover from in this
(12:52):
day and age.
And so, for me, psychology andeverything that it has to offer
that I'm talking about, aboutfamily dynamics, is really the
missing link in what we need topull ourselves off of that ledge
.
The truth is that nuclearweapons are obsolete, but we
(13:13):
don't get that.
You know that if we use them,we're done.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
And yet billions of dollars of hard earned money go
into their proliferation.
And it would be just like and Iuse this analogy all the time
it would be just like if anindividual family spent most of
their resources on an arsenal ofweapons that they put in their
closet instead of feeding theirchildren or getting them medical
(13:41):
care or sending them for a goodeducation.
We'd say they were disturbed.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
But we're doing that as a country.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, I think per capita per year we almost double
what if we spent last year.
So if it was like it's notactual numbers, let's say it's a
billion dollars next year.
We're doing two kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Billions, it's billions of weapons that we
should never create or use.
And so to me and this is one ofthe many points that I make in
my book, and I can't highlightthem all is that that is a sign
of mental unwellness.
This is a mental health issue.
It's not a defense issue.
(14:26):
It's not an ideological issue.
It's a mental health issuebecause mentally healthy people
don't do this.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Right, right, right.
I'm just curious, though I'msure you go into it on your book
, but I would love to hear yourtake.
Do you think also stuff likeYouTube, tiktok, instagram we're
really feeding into that also.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Well, I think the whole social media thing, just
like television, is adouble-edged sword, and I think
we all experience that.
There's people like you who aredoing these amazing podcasts
and really trying to spread good, helpful, constructive,
informative information to ageneral public that you
personally couldn't reach onyour own Right.
(15:11):
So there are amazing uses forthe technologies that we have
and the social media that wehave.
There are certain movies anddocumentaries that are so
amazingly informative andinspiring and that we need them.
I just saw Sound of Freedom.
I don't know if you saw that,but it's I've heard about it.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I never got around to see it in theater.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
It's a remarkable movie, remarkable eye-opening,
waking up kind of movie.
And so, for all the good,there's the shadow side, just
like there's the shadow side ofevery human being, where our
unhealed wounds play out.
And I think the desire todominate, the desire to exploit,
(15:56):
the desire to mobilize peopleagainst one another, that all
plays out in the social mediatoo, and it is very, very of a
great alarm and concern and itcan be very, very destructive.
And it's sort of like, as apopulation, are we going to
(16:18):
eventually, if not now, advocatefor the right use and I don't
mean by that like there's a goodand evil kind of thing, but the
right use of the technologieswe have, in the sense that do
they further life?
Do they further community?
Do they further acceptance andlove and valuing and peaceful
(16:43):
conflict resolution?
Do they further cooperation?
Because if there's one thing weneed to survive here on the
planet Earth, it's comingtogether to solve our problems,
and I think there's so many, butlook at climate change.
Are we going to come togetherto try to figure this out before
it's too late?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, these are all psychological issues.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
This is what psychology addresses.
It addresses the hurt betweenpeople, the divide between
people, the brokenness ofrelationship and its aftermath.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
It's amazing Now that you say it.
I've always consideredpsychology as one thing, but
kind of politics I guess it'sinvolved a little bit, but not
as deep as you're saying it is,and it's interesting where it's
like huh, it's a good point,because I had a guest back in
March.
He's like global warming is notreal.
(17:44):
He's like it's not realwhatsoever.
I'm like why I said I live inCalifornia.
Why is it getting hot almostone degree Fahrenheit every year
since 08?
We're hitting 120s in Buramaand that's not normal at all.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Right, good thing and I talk about the different
dynamics that you find indysfunctional and abusive
families and neglectful families, and that's one of the dynamics
is outright denial of the factsthat you see before you.
I've had clients, I've had many, many clients over the years
(18:24):
who have been terribly abused intheir families of origin, and
one message among many that I'veheard more than once is the
abuser saying to the child we'rethe only people who love you.
No one will ever love you theway that we do, and it's
obviously patently untrue.
(18:45):
But people get indoctrinatedinto believing things that are
untrue.
I didn't hit you that hard.
The child might be bleeding,but the abuser says I didn't hit
you that hard, stop crying.
You're making a big deal out ofnothing.
And these things happen.
And these things happen on asocietal level that people are
(19:08):
withheld from.
They can't earn a living wage,they can't live, they can't find
a place that they can afford tolive in that isn't rat infested
or cockroach infested, and thenthey're told that they're lazy
or that they're deficient orthey're inferior.
Because if you really pulledyourself up by your bootstraps,
(19:29):
you could make it Not true,absolutely not true.
And again, people that breakthat mold.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
But we have yeah, there's always the outliers, the
mavericks, but those are likefew and far between.
It's not anything you can basea study on.
But yeah, it's true, a lot ofpeople like I've been chatting
with my girlfriend and one of myfriends also and I'm both
saying like how are we evergoing to afford a house without
having to buy a five room apartlike a house and then rent out
(20:01):
four of them to four otherfamilies just to barely get by?
But like how are we supposed todo stuff anymore?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Right and I think you know.
And then we look at homelesspeople and we say you know,
there's just this sort of stigmaagainst homeless people when
the family dynamic of the familyof America is creating massive
homelessness.
And that's one of the bigpoints of my book is that we
(20:28):
have to look at the familysystem of the family of America
and say what environment are wecreating for all our family
members and stop blaming themfor their symptoms and look at
the root causes in the wholedynamic of how the family of
America is run.
I'm just curious Go ahead, no,go ahead.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Oh, no, I was just going to say, I'm just curious.
Now a big one I hear and I'mnot going to like say he's right
or right, but right or wrongit's Adam Corolla is saying that
most of our problems in Americaare because there's no good
staple fathers in the house.
Do you see that?
Or is there a bigger, morepolitical dynamic to that?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
That was just a simplification, a bigger dynamic
to that.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I mean I would love to hear it then.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Say, that's a symptom and of course, our symptoms, if
they're not treated, becomecauses.
So I think that's an importantthing to know.
If you have an infection andyou don't treat it, it's going
to create more symptoms in yourbody and it could kill you.
But what caused the infectionis what needs to be treated,
(21:38):
right.
So it's the same with ourpsyches.
It's like, yeah, there are alot of fathers who are not
taking care of their children orabandoning their families or
not paying child support or notbeing involved or whatever.
But what has the family ofAmerica been teaching young men?
I mean, this is a huge issuethat I can't address here, but I
(22:07):
think there's.
There's a whole list of thingsthat are going on in our lives
and what have we taught aboutfamily?
Family is actually the bedrockof everyone's well-being and to
the extent that our families arenot supported, that people
(22:27):
can't make a living wage, thatthey're discriminated against,
you know there's a whole list ofills that there's no lot of
injustice, these things are allbrought together, given those
burdens too at a young age.
What happens to the boys?
What happens to the girls?
Different things sometimes.
I mean because of the rolemodels.
(22:47):
There's so much discriminationagainst women in our society
still, it's just mind boggling.
And yet every person has amother.
And if their mother isn'ttreated well and isn't respected
by the men in the family, whathappens to the role model for
women?
What happens to the role modelfor men of how they treat women,
(23:08):
of how they see women, of whatthey believe about women?
And so, as a society, these areso many of the deep things that
need to be healed.
So the uninvolved fathers arethe tip of a big iceberg, if
that makes sense, and there's somuch about that.
But you know, let you chime inthere.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Thank you, I know I was just I wanted to type chime
in on the, the female dynamic.
That's a big one, I hear, butNow this is from the male point
of view and this is where youcan always correct me and I love
it when you do.
It seemed like the women aremore Selfish and more they're
(23:50):
not looking out for their man.
It's more what can I get frommyself?
Kind of like a gold diggersmindset.
Not all, obviously the arc,especially when I was like
Dating before I'm a current,current girlfriend, it was all
of them right oh, I get a freedinner off of him because the
man has to pay, but I don't haveto put up anything for him
(24:11):
because I'm a woman.
Mm-hmm, that's.
That's more where I'm trying toget at like.
But it probably reason that'smen are very standoff to women
because like, well, we're justall we are money to you, why
should we even care about you?
Kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Well, it's probably some one slice of the whole pie
that you're talking about, but Iguess what I would say as a big
picture image around, whatyou're talking about is that
Historically, women have beensubservient to men in many, many
cultures and had less rightsthan men in many, many and in
(24:44):
many places around the worldstill do.
In many places in the world,women have no rights.
So I think what happens is andI don't think that's true in
America, I don't think that theimbalance of power is as great
as it is in some countries wherewomen just are, they're the,
they're the possession of their,their husband, certainly not
(25:07):
that.
But but I think what happens ona psychological level is, when
people are oppressed and theygain some freedom, they tend to
swing very far in the oppositedirection.
So if it couldn't be about meat all, now maybe it's going to
be all about me.
Does that make sense?
(25:28):
It's sort of like what you, youoften see in countries where a
people has been repressed andthen they finally gain power and
they become the oppressorinstead of, you know, finding
that middle Ground and I thinkthat's the challenge, whether
it's between male and male andfemale.
In our country they're rich inthe poor.
You know all the structures isto find is to stop this intense
(25:52):
pendulum swing between extremes,which is what is a lot of the
rhetoric in our country is abouttoday, and find a middle ground
which is honoring both,honoring the feminine and
honoring the masculine andHopefully creating role models
of relationship between men andwomen, whether it's in
(26:14):
individual Relationships or howmen and women are treated on,
you know, on the national stagefor everybody to see and witness
and Be affected by.
To find that balance.
And right now we have so muchpolarization that is, that huge
pendulum swing is betweenextremes that we have to find a
middle.
So I'm not excusing anyone frombeing selfish or self-centered,
(26:38):
but I think in the big picture,psychologically we just want to
understand it's a symptom of Ofan extreme sort of trying to
find its middle and not havingfound it.
Because I think, I think and youtell me from the man's
Perspective.
I'd be really curious to knowwhat your view is I think we all
want the same thing, even if wehave a different hormones and
(27:02):
different biochemistry and somedifferences between being male
and female.
I think we all want to feelvalued, we all want to feel
loved, we all want to belong.
We all want to feel like wemake a difference in somebody
else's life and that we make,and that they make a difference
in ours.
So I think you know what.
What you're talking about issymptomatic of the great divides
(27:26):
that have been In place formany, many generations between
men and women that haven't foundtheir balance.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (27:36):
No, I 100% agree.
That was actually a big one memy girlfriend had we we've been,
we were going for blood for theother day like she was cutting
emotionally, cutting me up.
I was emotionally cutting herup, we were both throwing things
.
And then eventually, I likeOnce the heated battle was over
and we actually met each otherin person, I told her.
(27:56):
I said I just want to be heardand respected and just I said I
don't feel hurt anymore, I don'tfeel respected, and it's like
she put the same for me.
But I'm like then how am Idoing it wrong?
Like not in a bad way, likewhat?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
yeah, how can?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I learn.
How can I do it in a way thatyou receive it better, right,
and then that she has same thing.
And I agree 100% what you saidearlier.
It's like a Lot of us men don'tfeel like we're heard.
We're, just like I said, like afree meal, an emotional
punching bag for most, not all,and as I.
Why should we care about yourfeminine energy when you don't
(28:31):
even care about us?
Kind of thing, right.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And another big piece of that, and it's great that
you can just illustrate that,that we're working this out in
our lives.
Nobody me and my husband wedon't have it perfectly down
either.
We get into it and we come backand and what you did is is
really the key, and that is thatyou know we're gonna have
(28:54):
conflict.
Human beings are going to haveconflict.
We are going to bring ourwounds to one another that
aren't fully healed.
We just will, and it's natureof being, you know, in in
process.
But what we, what we need, andwhat I think you found, and what
I know that my husband and Ihave created over a long period
of time, is that we arecommitted to repairing the
(29:17):
ruptures and, matter what ittakes, we will come back
together, and that's what I wantto see in our country.
We have ruptures, we have greatdivides, we have huge
differences of opinion, but weit's so extreme that people
aren't listening to each otherat all and they don't even see
that there's a need to listen toeach other.
(29:38):
It's more like a desire tofoist your opinion and your
beliefs on other people andforce them to adhere.
And what we need and these thisis the basis of really good,
like couples therapy or familytherapy is to create an
environment when each personlearns how to listen with
respect and empathy for theother person's point of view.
(30:00):
And let me tell you I Can saythat easily it is really hard to
do.
When you're activated, whenyou're upset, when you're hurt,
when you're angry, when you'reafraid, it is really hard to do
and it takes great courage andpatience and strength to
actually do that with anotherhuman being.
And yet this is what we need inour country.
(30:22):
We need our leaders to bewilling to sit down at the table
and actually listen to oneanother with respect and be
committed to some kind ofresolution that's peaceful.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I do so.
It was something you hinted onbut never fully went into
details.
Do you think the divide fromthe over swinging is part of the
problem?
Like I'm not saying this is thecause or anything, but like the
LGBTQ, ai, whatever else nowthey are on, they're super loud,
but I have a lot of gay friendswho are like we don't like them
(30:57):
, they're too loud, they'rewe're getting too much attention
now kind of thing.
Like we didn't want this.
Do you think it's stuff likethat that's causing it?
Or even the people within the,the community, like that?
Or like getting a lot ofunnecessary attention?
I have a black friend I used toPerson of color, whatever the
politically correct way ofsaying it.
He even told me he's like Ihate BLM.
(31:22):
He's like I have so muchunnecessary attention now, like
I feel like anything I do, evenif it's a microwave burrito,
like everyone has to stare.
He's like, don't look at me,I'm not like a circus freak kind
of thing.
So I think, do you think that'spart of the symptoms or is that
the after effect of thependulum swings?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I think there's many causes, so you probably can't
pin it on any one thing, but itcertainly could be part of the
pendulum swing.
I think that other causes arethat people are just so wounded.
Many people who are reallywounded need Attention somehow,
so they're the loudest voice inthe room or they're the most
(32:01):
extreme in their behavior, orthey, you know, like.
You know, you see that in highschool, with kids who start
dressing all in black andwhatever, and it can be for many
reasons.
Maybe they're really being hurtat home, maybe they just don't
have any attention anywhere.
That's positive, so some peoplewill go in that direction.
But I think I think there'sother factors involved here.
(32:22):
So I wouldn't say that it itcomes from any one source.
But I think another big thing isthat we have a long way to go
in working out how a woman Cansuccessfully Embrace her
masculine side and how a man cansuccessfully Embrace his
(32:43):
feminine side in a way that issocietally affirmed, because
that is actually what we need toheal.
You know, women are not justwhatever and men are not just
we're.
We're different, we may bedifferent and, of course,
everybody's different with.
There's no one thing that awoman is and one thing that a
man is.
But.
(33:03):
But psychological health oftencan be seen through a Healthy
balance of both energies, nomatter what body you're in, and
so I think some of the extremesare pointing to that.
We have no way to do that yetin our society there are people
who are working on that and or avoice of that, but societally I
(33:29):
think that the divide betweenmen and women, or the patriarchy
and the whatever, is Stillsomething that really needs a
lot of healing and a lot ofattention, and then there may be
other factors with that.
You know that.
I don't know, because I'm notthat as familiar with that
community as you might be.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Oh, I know.
I just I know of them becausewhen I went to college Okay, I
didn't slow sides, fun story, Iwant to do theater, lighting and
sound and I was like, oh, I'lldo it, because I don't have to
go take English, I still get acollege degree.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
I.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Was only straight guy there.
It was fun though, because Ican make a very convincing Lispy
, mincey, fairy kind of guy, andsome of the gay men were kind
of like oh, my kind of thing.
But but that was a big one,they told me is like we don't
feel hurt other than we here,like we don't feel safe unless
we're here, kind of thing, andthey're like why are you here?
Speaker 2 (34:27):
I just wanted an easy way.
Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
No, sorry, they're like.
Why are you here, though?
I'm like, I just wanted an easycollege degree.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Got a.
Thing.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, and I think I think what you said, though, is
like you know all peoplecongregating together for
support, and so that can createan extreme all by itself.
There are just so manydifferent psychological factors,
or you know things, that wedon't know each person you know
Someone may, oh, kind of Turn up.
(34:57):
Sorry about that.
It's.
There's just so many differentfactors.
You know and we don't know whatcomes from abuse, what comes
from neglect, what comes fromDeficient role models, what
comes from Genuinely somebodyfeeling like they were born into
the wrong body and they'rereally trying to figure out how
to live.
We just don't know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
It's true, the mind is complicated and we're still
even with AI.
We don't even fully understandit.
I think.
I am curious, though, for onething for you Do you think, from
a psychiatrist point of view,but also from your you as
yourself, what is some of thethings we could do to start
(35:43):
healing the divide?
Is it like I'm not trying toincorporate the patriarchy, but
like going to church more, doinglike picnic tachy, making your
neighbor a good fruitcake, kindof thing, is it?
What are some of the thingsthat we could start doing to,
yeah, at least unite people?
maybe not be on the same sidebut at least you nine wonder one
thing in a positive, productiveway.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think some of it comes down to how we
just treat people on a dailybasis, going out of your way to
be friendly to a service person,being nice to the person on the
phone that you don't reallywant to talk to or you need to
hang up on because you don'twant to buy with or selling, but
you could still be pleasant tothem?
Yeah, and Definitely.
(36:31):
You know, one of the things Idid I did a fair amount of
research when I was writing mybook, and one of the things that
that I discovered in myresearch was that there are
statistics on volunteerism inAmerica and Way.
More than half of Americansvolunteer somewhere, volunteer
their time, volunteer service,volunteer money To help their
(36:54):
neighbors, people in prisons,under, you know, people in the
inner city.
There's an incredible amount ofgenerosity already going on in
our country and it's not hittingthe news.
You know.
These are the role models weneed to see and hear, that our
kids need to see and hear that.
Our kids need to see and hearthat there's something anybody
can do.
They can, you know, be part ofa trash pickup, bring meals to
(37:19):
disabled people, feed homeless.
There, you know, there's.
There's endless numbers of waysthat people can help their
neighbors.
You don't have to be apsychotherapist to help people.
Love is what heals love andcare.
That's the bottom line of whatheals, and I say this over and
over again because I see thisover and over again.
I've seen it in my own life andI see it as a psychotherapist,
(37:44):
that the greatest injuries thatpeople suffer from Are the
injuries to love and belongingthat they suffered growing up
somewhere at some point in theirlife, often in their family of
origin, and so their greatestinjuries come from abuse and
neglect on some level from otherhuman beings, and they can be
healed by love and care, empathy, good boundaries and peaceful
(38:09):
conflict resolution by otherhuman beings, and we can all be
that.
We can all be that.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
That's beautiful.
I mean, I've always I was justraised by my parents like, if
you see someone on the street,like I do it when I can.
Sometimes I do a pool route now.
So I got to like hustle, butwhenever I have time A couple
days ago, like I saw homelessguy, I literally bought him an
end up burger because this is,I'm hungry, can I get money just
for food?
I promise no drugs, kind ofthing.
(38:39):
And I'm like, wow, I'll just,I'll just go get him a burger,
kind of thing, beautiful.
And he just like literallystopped there.
And then it was so funny.
This lady rolls up and it'slike this and then hands him a
20 and he's like, no, I don'twant your money now, like he
like I'm good, kind of thing,like you're doing out of pity.
I snatched it from her and said, okay, just take this or you
(39:01):
can get a meal later on, kind ofthing.
He's like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Wow, wow, beautiful, and we can all do those kinds of
things.
I mean it really.
You don't have to be atherapist.
You know, deeply entrenched ina healing modality, and many
people really need that for sure.
And if some of our billions ofdollars and we put them toward
helping people heal and buildingstronger, more viable
communities, we wouldn't havesome of the mental health issues
(39:29):
that we have today.
We wouldn't.
We would not have the massshootings that we have.
If people were cared for, wewould not.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, it's sad to say , especially the mass shootings.
I stopped listening to news forthat reason, because I'm like
it almost seems like it's everyother day it's happening.
It is.
I was my old high school buddybecause he said what do you
think because I'm very creativein the right stories, he said
what do you think is the like,the root of the story, the cause
of it all, mike, kids notgetting hugged?
(39:59):
Essentially it's the kids don'tFeel like they're loved by
anyone, even their protectors ortheir enemies.
So it's like, well, if I'm, ifI'm in pain, I said it's a very
selfish way of the mind works,but it's like if I'm in pain,
I'm going to hurt them.
I feel like I'm being stabbedand shot every day, so I'm gonna
stab and shoot them Literally.
(40:21):
I said when it could have beenfixed with I'm proud of you boy.
Take him to the ball game, gofishing, even if he doesn't like
fishing.
He or she doesn't like fishing.
Just take him.
It's like at least someonecared enough to take their time
and resource to bring me overhere, kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
I said yeah yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
I don't say, but I don't know how to spread that
message to the people whoactually need to hear it, kind
of thing.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Yeah, I mean you're spreading it now.
You're spreading it to lots ofpeople, and there are people who
are out there.
Actually, that's what they'redoing.
They're being a big brother ora big sister, or they're
starting a program forunderprivileged youth or
Children who are come fromdivorced homes, who have lost a
parent, or you know.
They're there and we need everyone of them, you and I and
(41:04):
everybody out there.
We can't do it all.
You can do what you can do, Ican do what I can do, and we
need each other because we allhave so many gifts To offer.
And the more a person doestheir own healing work, the less
they are likely to project,project their shadow onto other
people and create this kind ofdivisiveness.
(41:25):
And the more I see that themore people heal, the more they
want to be of service, whetherit's just, you know, being a
better parent or a betterneighbor, or they want to start
some huge program, or they wantto volunteer somewhere.
It doesn't matter what scale,it all counts.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean it's not humans directly, but like well, humans were
involved.
Where I live there's a big hillbehind me and then there's a
park that goes into the hills,divided by this big like like
drain thing that goes to theocean.
This Asian couple just droppedoff a 20 year old so-called a
(42:05):
tortoise.
In the cold of winter I'd leftit there and I'm like that's
gonna be easy coyote foodtonight.
I'm like that poor thing, it'sa tortoise that lives like 300
years.
That's still an infant fortortoise years kind of thing.
So I, literally in my brokenjinky wheelbarrow I ran over,
picked up the 50 pound heifer,put it in there.
(42:26):
And one of my neighbors Ihaven't talked to her other than
in that moment she's like oh so, and so has tortoises.
Drop them off there, he'llfigure out what to do with it.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Kind of thing so.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
I dropped him off.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
So I dropped him off and then he called like a.
So he had like ground turtles,not the like the aquatic ones,
but it like they bury and theylike stays for like half the
year.
This was an actual tortoisethat stays awake all year, so it
destroyed his garden.
Funny thing is this is beforeprop 64 and California passed,
so it ate all his weed too.
(42:59):
Portorto's turtle was tripping,but yeah.
But he even said he's like,yeah, if it wasn't for you that,
yeah, he's like, I've beenseeing a lot of coyotes out
there and this would.
It was like almost 40 degreeswe hit that night, so if he
stayed out, that tortoise wouldhave been done.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Right.
But like then that's where hegot the tortoise to say place.
But then I still talked to himkind of thing and he's like yeah
, he's like I still think aboutyou, like you save that 50 pound
thing, like you didn't have to.
I'm like it didn't deserve thatthough.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Right and I think you know it.
Just I want to say this it's notexactly related to what you're
saying, but it's sort of takingon.
What you're saying is that Ithink part of what needs such
reform in our whole culture isto help parents who mistreat
their children rather than justsee them as criminals, because I
(43:55):
think people are afraid toreport because once the state
and the system gets involved,children end up in often end up
in horrible foster care systemsor parents and yeah, and they're
just traumatized by the system,rather than if we had a society
, a family of America that wasdevoted to treating as many
(44:16):
people as are treatable and somepeople we don't know how to
treat, we really don't.
There are people who are soinjured that they just have to
be restrained because we do nothave the psychological or
whatever the understanding is torehabilitate them.
But there are many people who,if they were given the
opportunity to say yes, I beatmy kid, I was beaten, I don't
(44:40):
know any other way.
I have a horrible reactionpattern.
I just blow up and I do what myfather or my mother did to me.
There are many people who areactually treatable and that
should be our focus Bring peopleback, break the cycle of abuse
and families, rather thancontinue this perpetration,
(45:00):
which is locking people up andseeing them as horrible human
beings, which they're not.
They're acting out their owntraumas.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Yeah, no, it's true, the being in that system would
be the only white kid in prettymuch Hispanic campus.
I joke about it now.
But it's kind of like my copingmechanism.
I did not realize how accurateLatinas are with their sandals
or where they throw it and howit hurts, kind of thing.
(45:33):
And it's not just the physicalhurts, the psychological attack
too, whether they realize thatpart or not.
But I was walking in one of mybuddy's house and she shows like
oh, something like me, I'mgonna get you and throw us a
sandal and I do martial arts.
I just went what, where doesthis come from?
Apparently, that's really badif you catch the sample, kind of
(45:54):
thing.
So and he's like my mom, hedidn't know the rules, like he
literally is jumping in frontand she's like it's set, she
makes me a nice taco Becauseshe's like, thank you, like
she's like.
I realized after I threw it Imade a mistake.
I was like I just I playedbaseball and I do martial arts.
I just catch things that move,kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm, you experienced real discrimination
.
And you know, and I've heardstories from many, many clients
about their history ofdiscrimination and it's just,
it's heartbreaking A little itis, you know?
Black child told why can't youhave blonde hair?
(46:34):
What's wrong with your hair?
Born with this hair, you knowright.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, wow, that, like that was a little like dagger
in my heart on that one.
But yeah, it is.
It's the amount of bullying tothat happens.
I, at least from my point ofview, being a survivor of school
yard bullying and the firststart of cyber bullying Mm, hmm,
(47:02):
it's so painful, but it's not aphysical pain.
That's right.
But if but it's one of those,it's like it's, they're
attacking small things like mineis my teeth.
They're better now because I'mstraightening them out, but they
, they did.
They look gnarled, they looklike cane, like a werewolf kind
of teeth Like, oh, you're amonster.
(47:23):
Oh, you're going to bitesomeone's throat.
Oh, like, stay back from him,he's going to hurt you, kind of
thing.
And I, oh, you didn't even wantto open your mouth, right, I
didn't.
I didn't want to talk, I didn'twant to say anything.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Like.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
I learned to be a ventriloquist.
I could still talk with mymouth closed like this, so you
can hear me, but you can't seemy teeth.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Wow, wow, wow.
And you know this is happeningto people all over the world,
all over our country childrenwho are just told from the very
beginning that they're not okay,there's something wrong with
them and it's bad, and thatmeans that they should be
rejected, they should be scorned, they should be treated poorly.
(48:03):
And you're absolutely right.
You do not have to bephysically violated to
experience just as much pain asa physical violation will cause.
Absolutely Mental and emotionalpain is excruciating and it has
lasting effects on people ifthey can't find a safe place to
(48:24):
be and a healing environment, ahealthy environment or a loving,
peaceful environment to be in.
And many, many, many peoplecan't find that it's not
available to them.
So what do we imagine happensto them?
We just look at them and tellthem pull yourself up by your
bootstraps.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Yeah, that didn't work for me.
I mean, at six or eight yearsold it was the 90s when this
happened, but I don't know ifthat really is an excuse or not
but I was exhibiting ADHD,tapping my foot, like do this,
like I was, I did not want tosit still clicking my pen.
Teachers like you need to putthem on something, sedate him.
(49:06):
He's like, he's too much, he'sbipolar, kind of thing.
I remember this specifically.
I remember walking out andseeing a bird fly right past my
face.
In there, like a, like a poeticway, I walk a little bit I'm
still young and I look down andI see a worm dying in front of
me.
I'm like, oh, that kind ofthing.
And then it go down somewhereand I see a kid like teasing a
(49:27):
girl and pulling her hair and Iget went from sad, happy, sad to
angry and they're like, oh,he's bipolar, put them on drugs.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
And did they put you on drugs?
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Wow.
And that's this is ignorance.
This is psychological ignoranceand it really it's tragic for
people like yourself who gettreated and seen that way, and
this is one of the reasons oneof the many reasons why I wrote
my book is because I think we'rein desperate need of
psychological education.
(50:00):
The average man on the streetdoes not know the things that I
learned as a psychotherapist andas a client myself.
Not because the average man onthe street is is a lesser human
being, but because thisinformation is not widespread.
We should be teachingpsychology and family dynamics
and healthy family dynamics andabuse dynamics in our school
(50:22):
system.
It should be part of oureducation.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
But that doesn't help the bottom line of corporations
, because if you're that brokenyou're seeking material needs to
fill a void.
It almost does seem like itincentivize to keep us broken
because profits are better forcorporations.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Well, I think that's one of the problems with an
abusive system is that there aretremendous rewards for holding
on to power, and that's whatwe're seeing all over the
country in many, many differentvenues.
And I don't think the thingsthat I'm talking about are going
to change overnight.
I don't think they can changeovernight, but I do believe they
(51:00):
can change and I believe thateducation and healing from the
bottom up if we all do, you knowas many people do their own
work and make their owncontribution there are people
who are running their businessesdifferently now.
There are people who arerunning their big corporations
on models that are sustainable,that are humane, that are treat
(51:23):
people more as equal andvaluable human beings and not
just replaceable commodities anda huge chain of production.
And these models can beproliferated, they can be taught
, they can be.
You know, there's we have.
We have to capitalize on whatwe have.
But, yes, I don't think I thinkthe incentive for holding on to
(51:43):
power inappropriately and notnot taking in the impact of hurt
that so many people are sufferas a result of that imbalance of
power is part of the problem.
That needs to just keep comingto light and coming to light and
coming to light until more andmore people are operating on a
different system.
That's why it'll take time.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
Oh, it will.
I mean I've seen quickturnaround.
I'm going to say, before I evenstart that story, how long do I
got you?
Speaker 2 (52:13):
till.
I'm good.
So you just tell me when Idon't have something right after
this.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
So okay, that's what I was worried about.
No no, no.
So I worked security inCalifornia.
There's this farm area calledlike Chino, uh huh, stinky Like.
I worked there for almost twoyears and I I the gate I was at
I was essentially an underpaidclerk.
(52:41):
I receive all these truckers,receive all the traumas and
jokes and then I throw it backat them because they're the
weird kind of person.
If you don't talk shit to them,they feel bad.
It's a culture, right, right.
But I would also watch as theemployees going in.
I had to watch them too.
And this dude I still rememberit Neck tattoo, big old stone
(53:03):
gate fire coming out with gatesopen, demon spawn coming out and
flying.
Wow, he had all these like SScobwebs, like clearly he's a
hurt person kind of thing, right, right.
He literally said to his onebuddy that drove him out.
He said man, I wish we got inthat car crash, that we passed,
that way I could break my legsand not be here for one day and
(53:27):
stay home for six months andstay here.
We'll call him Chuck.
I don't really know who thehell he is, but we'll call him
Chuck.
And then literally a big wigcomes by and is like hey, josh,
you're a really observing kid.
I'm like 26, by the way, I'mlike I'm 26.
Like I'm not a kid.
He's like you're younger thanme, you're a kid kind of thing.
I'm like God.
He said what's wrong with thiswarehouse?
(53:49):
This is my baby, this is theone that got me to VP of the
region.
I said well, you've been inyour ivory tower too long.
He's like what do you mean?
I'm like you don't talk toemployees.
I said that guy with the demonspawn and the thing he's like
yeah, chuck, I'm like yeah.
He literally said he wished yougot in a car crash, broke his
leg and stayed home for sixmonths on, paid, then come one
day for you, wow.
And he looked and he's like.
(54:11):
I said I'm no expert, butthat's a morality problem, dude,
you're treating him like anumber.
They're feeling it and theyrather be a number that goes
home than work for you.
I said, dude, the easiest way Iknow, because I've done this
before can you afford like 500bucks?
Like first prize winner gets150, two underneath is like 200
(54:31):
bucks and then like 50, whateverdivides out to like $500.
He's like, yeah, like it's sadto say, for a debut worker, 100
bucks is game changing.
I'm like that's what's?
500 bucks out of your personalpocket?
He's like, oh, that's two steakdinners.
I'm like I don't know where yougo, but I want to try that
place out, kind of thing Twosteak dinners for 500 bucks.
(54:53):
So I told him, I said just dogames.
We're humans, we love games,even if they're not competitive.
The fact is the game going onthough, like the whole energy
shifts.
Even the procrastinators arelike okay, well, maybe there's a
chance I can get 50 bucks if Iup a little kind of thing Plus.
And I said and then said it'snot hard, use the company
(55:16):
quarter year, as it doesn'tmatter.
Buy the best taco guy or gal.
So lately the taco gals arebetter because they actually
make their food with love andjust spoil them.
Pay them their whole lunchinstead of unpaid.
Pay them their lunch, give thembecause it is a warehouse for
like board games and stuff.
I said give them the old boardgames.
(55:37):
You had to like throw off the.
You couldn't ship them becausethey were damaged in transport.
Give them the board games.
They don't care if it's damaged.
They can take their new Hasbrotoy that didn't even come out
yet and be like look, look, myboss gave me this new monopoly
game.
Like it's not even out yet.
Let's play a kind of thing.
Yeah, so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
So beautiful.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
He did it.
He did it, he did it and in onemonth.
Let's just say, for numberssake, he was doing 200,000
packages in one day and onemonth of doing that,
implementing it, doing itcorrectly.
I just gave him that knowledge.
By the way, I never followed upwith him.
He went from 200,000 packages aday to 1 million plus.
Speaker 2 (56:19):
So let me just tell you that story is so beautiful
and it's so fascinating thatwhen you treat people better,
they treat you better.
We bring out the potential inpeople.
Look at that, look at what youdid.
You changed his life and theripple effect was you changed
(56:39):
the life of all of his workers.
You better believe they tookthat home with them every night
when they left work.
So that changed the life of alltheir children and their
families and their friends andall the people around them.
And this is the power that oneperson can have.
We can make a difference.
That is so beautiful.
(57:00):
I'm so happy that you sharedthat story.
Speaker 1 (57:04):
I'm very proud of that one and the part that warms
my heart that I never getaround to is so.
He did the little like tacoperson for them in between, but
he did a full feast.
He hired the taco lady, hernephew and her brother kind of
thing.
They had like the whole thing.
It was like a $4,000 or $5,000setup for everything.
They all waited until I came toget food.
Speaker 2 (57:29):
Oh, that is so beautiful.
That is so beautiful and nowyou're sharing this story with
all your listeners.
Who knows who's going to takethis ball and run with it?
So beautiful, so powerful.
Speaker 1 (57:43):
And that's where they all said it to me when they did
the raffles.
One of them I never officiallywon the raffle, but essentially
it was, I guess, because of theextra $100, he was able to buy
his daughter like her specialBarbie that he could never
afford.
She's so happy now that she hasher special Barbie.
It's funny now like the Barbiemovie came out.
This was long before it.
(58:03):
But he said pick any toy youwant.
He's like this is what I cangive you kind of thing.
You made my daughter's lifebetter.
I want to give you something.
And I said, well, I've nevertried that Monopoly Star Wars
one over there.
He's like I want that one forJosh.
The lady came over like all ofthem, like any leftovers.
(58:23):
They gave me like 15 toys to gohome with.
I had to cut a GI Joe.
I lost it.
But I was like, oh my God, Ihaven't had one of these in ages
.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
Oh, this is a beautiful, beautiful story.
And again I just want toreiterate you don't have to have
any special training, you don'thave to have a lot of money,
you don't have to have anythingto do what you did, except the
desire to share love andhumanity with other people.
Speaker 1 (58:51):
Well, and the the wild part is because I was just
a security guard.
So all the the crazy part isall the truckers started
memorizing my days and times.
They would only come to thewarehouse when I was there.
Speaker 2 (59:04):
Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (59:06):
Because I could get in and out quickly.
But also the managers of allthe other warehouses knew my
extension, although I'm sittinghere going like how do you know
this?
Because, like I don't know yourextension, how do you know who
I am?
But they all were asking me,like what did you do to make
warehouse number six the top dog, when it was the laughing stock
of the whole warehouse yard?
(59:27):
And I would just tell them,like it's literally just
treating like a human.
I gave them the basics.
So suddenly that like thatwhole I don't know if they're
still doing it because they'reall obviously there's new
managers and all that and theycome in with their agenda, but
for that time, while I was there, that whole place was pumping
like crazy.
Speaker 2 (59:45):
I want to highlight something that you did, because
it's such a big part of what I'mtalking about, and that is that
you saw all those people whoare suffering in those kind of
work conditions as worthy humanbeings who have an essence
that's worth treating humanelyand well, and more than well.
And I think that that iscertainly one of the things I
(01:00:09):
learned in a very different waybeing a psychotherapist that
underneath everybody's symptoms,underneath their fear,
underneath their hurt,underneath their pain,
underneath the ways they'veacted out and hurt other people,
there is this essential humanbeing that is worthy and needs
love, desires love and is worthyof love and care and good
(01:00:29):
treatment.
And when you see people thatway, when you speak to that in
people, when you see that andthey get that communication from
you, that you see them as aworthwhile human being who is
equal and worthy, it changes howthey feel about themselves.
(01:00:49):
And you communicated that sopowerfully to the owner or the
boss or whoever that man was,and then he was able to
communicate that through hisactions to his workers because
you showed him the way, becauseyou saw those people that way,
and this is one of the mostpowerful gifts we can give
(01:01:09):
another human being.
It really is.
Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
So the fun cherry on top is he offered me money and I
was like I don't need money forthis.
And then afterwards I'm seeinghere going I should have taken
that check kind of thing.
But he was like name your price.
I didn't know how much moneybecause.
So essentially one of theladies in office told me for
math sake, one package is $1.
(01:01:37):
So he said you went from200,000 a day to a million a day
and I said I only asked for10,000.
She's like honey, you couldhave easily asked for a million
and he would have given it toyou.
I was like damn, I should havetaken that check, kind of thing.
But he even told me he's likethank you, he's like I would not
(01:01:59):
have.
He's like I used to be thatboss, the one that you were
talking about, the one that wasthere.
But he's like you're right,it's when you said you're in
your ivory tower too long youforgot.
He's like that's what hit meand that's why I did what you
said.
I said I told I just joked himbecause I was.
I was actually on like someheavy meds back then.
Like it was the kind of like Icouldn't sleep during the night
(01:02:21):
but I slept during the day.
But then if I took like it wasweird, like I would sleep drive
home and then like halfway itwas like a 30 mile drive and
suddenly halfway through I metthe mountains.
I'm like, oh crap, I was asleepthe whole time, kind of thing.
So I told him like oh, youasked a drugged out confluent
tick of a security guard forhelp.
He's like he said, in play welike, but those are the best
(01:02:41):
ones because they have no filter, wow, Wow.
But yeah, it was one of those,though, the way he said he's
like you look out for others.
So he's like it's amazing howyou look out for others, cause
he and that's that's where hepointed out the truckers.
He's like I have guys that usedto run nights that will only
run during your shift.
Now he's like and these guysare used to night shift and
(01:03:05):
they're willing to break it sothey can get in with you.
Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Wow, wow.
I mean really again.
I just want to say the powerthat one person can have to
change the lives of so manyothers.
We just don't know, and we allhave that in some other, in our
own individual ways.
And you were just beingyourself, I was, you're just
being yourself.
That's so beautiful, it's soinspiring.
(01:03:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Yeah, now is there anything in particular I missed
that you would like to continueon or talk about with your book?
That, like I said, like I mighthave missed, that's important
to you.
Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
But well, I think we've talked about a lot, so I
feel complete with that.
There's always more to talkabout because I have many
different things that I'vetalked about.
But I would really just love itif people would buy my book
when it comes out.
I have a publisher now and it Ilove for you, yeah, super
(01:04:05):
excited.
Just signed a contract a coupleof weeks ago and my book, I
believe, will come out sometimein there, hopefully early spring
, but I don't know.
And I would.
I will definitely send you acopy and I would love to have
any of your listeners go to mywebsite, which is just my name,
phyllis Levitt,p-h-y-l-l-l-i-s-l-e-a-v-i-t-tcom
(01:04:30):
, and, you know, sign up for mynewsletter, because then you'll
be the first to know when mybook is available and you can
stay in touch with me.
You can ask me questions,whatever, but I would just and
I'm on all the social media youknow, like LinkedIn, facebook
and all that stuff but butreally, you know, I just am so
grateful to have the opportunityto talk with you about the
(01:04:53):
things that matter to me so muchand to find you as a
like-minded person who's livingwhat I'm talking about in the
way that you live it in yourlife and that's very inspiring
to me and I hope it's inspiringto your audience.
Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
Thank you, and also it's just it's nice for me to
hear like a good conversation,like we had, where it's like
this is where I'm at and you say, okay, I see you, but this also
I don't a lot of my shows, it'sjust they talk to me and then I
ask questions and I appreciatethat we had a genuine back and
forth on this.
Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
Me too.
I really appreciate that a lotand I really appreciate you and
what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Thank you.
Hello, hello, hello everybody.
How are you all doing today?
So we have Phyllis on today.
We had a wonderful chat.
Actually, I had to like stopher halfway through and turn on
the recording button, because wewere just chatting like old
friends and it was amazing.
I learned a lot aboutpsychology and what, what's
really going on in the world andand from her point of view, and
(00:26):
we even challenge each other oncertain ideals, and I like that
.
That was was a goodintellectual tip for tat kind of
thing, and I'm curious what youguys think.
So when you make it to the end,give me a holler in reviews or
messages or YouTube, and we'llgo from there, phyllis.
(00:48):
Like I said, phyllis was agreat conversation and let's
just get right into it.
Welcome to the Josh Bolton show.
We've done interesting andinspiring conversations, and now
your host, josh Bolton.
That's interesting.
(01:10):
So what's the biggest one?
You see, though, that coming upfor?
Like therapy, like trauma wise,is it like hurting the inner
child and stuff like that?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
You know, basically what I think brings people to
therapy in the first place issomething in their present life
is really not working.
Relationships aren't working,their creativity is blocked,
their relationship with theirchildren is suffering, they're
having addiction problems ordepression or mess of anxiety.
So there's it's usually somekind of pain, like when you go
(01:43):
to a doctor.
Something in your body is notworking and it's causing pain.
You go to a doctor to heal andI think people go to therapy for
the same reasons on anemotional, mental level and
generally, what I have foundover the many years that I've
been a psychotherapist is thatthe original wounds happened
long ago for most people, likein something in their family of
(02:07):
origin, in their conditioning,perhaps in their community.
I know a lot of people of color,for instance, have had a lot of
trauma in their community, notnecessarily in their home, but
in their community, beingdiscriminated against as
children on the playground, youknow, which causes massive
trauma, and so it's something inour conditioning that gave us a
(02:30):
message that we're not okay,that there's something wrong
with us or that we can't expectto be helped or loved or
supported by other people, thatwe have grown up maybe with role
models of conflict resolutionthat are highly aggressive or
violent.
You know abuse, neglect on alldifferent levels, you know it
(02:52):
can be anywhere from just notreally getting the love and
support and affirmation you needand you know, just expected to
be quiet and behave to overtabuse in a family or in a
community and exposure toviolence and hatred and
discrimination.
So it can be any of those things, but it's something in our
(03:14):
conditioning that leaves usfeeling less than and then, as a
result of that, most peoplecome up with some kind of way to
cope that hasn't really workedfor them in their adult life.
So you know, one child who'sabused might withdraw and become
sort of a loner, but really weall want love and connection.
(03:37):
So being a loner doesn'tactually work but it feels
protective.
And then at some point thatdefense mechanism breaks down or
the defense might be becomingaggressive and starting fights
with everyone.
But you kind of get what I'msaying that the combination of
what we've been taught aboutourselves that isn't positive
(03:58):
and isn't constructive or kindor loving, and the coping
mechanisms that people developto try to survive At some point
for many people break down andthat causes a lot of pain, but
it also is a possibility.
It creates the possibility forhealing.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
That's amazing.
No, like you're, phyllis.
That description you gave ofthe isolating to the getting
angry that the reason I smiledand kept looking everywhere was
that was me.
I was like the only.
I was the only white kid on aMexican campus, so I got Wow,
daily talk pretty much.
And then when I went to juniorhigh, being quiet wasn't enough,
(04:38):
so I actually started fightingand I'm a big boy, I hit hard
and that's where suddenlyeveryone's like he's a monster.
So it's like crap, what do I donow?
Kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, exactly, and you're doing your best to
survive in an environment thatisn't supporting you to be your
best self and your truest self.
And I took that exactly what yousaid, because I've seen that
over and over and over again inone form after another, working
with hundreds of clients overthe years, that somehow we
(05:10):
develop these coping mechanismsthat we're trying to survive
with that don't actually bringus the love and connection and
belonging and cooperation andvaluing that we all deserve, we
all need and we all deserve.
And the same thing is happeningin our country that there's an
environment that's created bypeople in power, whether it's
(05:33):
the people in power in thebusiness you work in or the
school you go to, or the placeof worship you attend, or the
government on a local or stateor national level, there are
people in power who are actingout those same abusive dynamics
on the people that depend onthem and that they have control
(05:54):
over, with terrible results.
And that's part of the way tostart to understand what's going
on in our country that theseabuse dynamics, these
dysfunctional abuse,discriminatory dynamics that are
coming from the top down aswell as from the bottom up in
many families, that aredysfunctional, is putting our
(06:15):
whole society at risk, andthere's a lot to say about that
and I can tell you more, butplease ask any questions that
you know I was going to actuallyask you, like, what is your
take on that?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Like whether the dynamics you're seeing from the
top down but bottom up yeah,maybe I'm not fully seeing from
a therapist point of view.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Right.
And then I think many peopledon't see, not because you're
blind or ignorant, but becausewe're not taught this like.
We need this psychologicaleducation to understand what's
happening to us.
So there's some big ones, andI'll start with one of the
really big ones that I emphasizein my book, and that is that in
general and of course there areexceptions to every rule, right
(06:57):
, I know, not everybody fits acertain mold of a pattern of
behavior, but in general, whenpeople are harmed, when they're
abused or discriminated againstor their bodies are violated or
they're put down and made tofeel small and unlovable and
unwanted by the people that theydepend on and the people that
(07:21):
have power over them.
So here I'm going to talk aboutan individual family where
abuse takes place, and let mejust say that from my experience
as a therapist and I think many, many therapists could tell you
the same thing abuse andneglect on emotional, physical
and sexual levels in our countryis epidemic.
There are many, many people whoare being hurt and violated in
(07:46):
their own homes by theirmentally unwell caregivers and
parents.
So when that happens to aperson, if there's no rescue
from the abuse and if there's notreatment for it, even if a
person manages to escape from it.
There are two very likelyoutcomes for people and again,
(08:08):
not everybody fits this mold,but many, many people do.
And these are some of thepeople that I have seen over the
years in therapy and workedwith good people, you know
people who mean well, people whoare really trying to survive
the best they can.
But the two main outcomes areeither you have learned to give
(08:30):
up and become passive becauseresisting the abuser or the
abuse has not worked, thatyou're not strong enough to
resist what's happening to you,or resistance might even bring
further abuse and punishment oralienation.
So some people become verypassive and it's called learned
(08:51):
helplessness.
That's a psychological term andthat dynamic will follow many
people out into adulthood, evenwhen they leave home.
That learning is so deep and soprofound that they have that
mindset, that coping mechanismof sort of like freeze and hope
(09:12):
the danger will pass, ratherthan being able to summon up any
appropriate means of protectingthemselves, whether it's from
physical assault or emotionalassault or for just being
misused and exploited by otherpeople.
The other main outcome is theopposite that there are many
people in abusive, neglectfulhomes who will do anything in
(09:36):
their power not to be helpless,and they tend to fall into the
category of those who identifywith the aggressor and they take
on the role model of the peoplewho have hurt them and they
become the hurters themselvesand in some way you could say
they become aggressivelydominating.
(09:56):
And the other half of peoplebecome passive and dominatable,
they're submissive.
And so what happenspsychologically and of course we
see this all the time is thatthey attract each other.
The dominator is attracted tosomeone who will submit and the
(10:17):
person who submits is attractedto someone who dominate them
because that's what they know.
And this is a very, verydangerous dynamic in an
individual home because it willperpetuate abuse that you have
someone who becomes dominatingand you have a partner who can't
stand up to them and protectthemselves and or their children
(10:40):
, and we see this all the timeand you read stories about it,
the horrific stories of that,all the time in the news and on
a societal level.
What it means is that you have,without an interruption and
abuse, then you have more andmore people who fit these two
categories, if there's no helpand there's no rescue, and so if
(11:02):
that kind of abuse and neglectis coming down from the top,
from the highest levels ofauthority in our country, where
certain people are deprived ofresources, they're deprived of
justice, they're deprived ofequal opportunity, and then you
will have more and more peoplewho will fit those two role
(11:25):
models One becomes passive andone becomes aggressive, and you
just have this escalation and,unfortunately, then you have a
setup for the people who haveidentified with the aggressor to
look for positions of authorityin which they can dominate, and
(11:45):
sometimes they run for office,and that's really frightening.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
It is.
It really is.
So is it?
Are we talking more like mayorlevel, congress level or
presidential level?
Or are we talking like this isworldwide, not just America?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Well, absolutely worldwide, but I talk about
America because this is thecountry I'm familiar with,
because I live here and I don'thave the knowledge to talk about
other countries, but clearlythese dynamics are going on all
over the world and historicallyhave been going on.
However, we have greaterweapons now to wipe out our
enemies than we ever had before.
(12:30):
So when we have leaders inpower who are of the aggressive,
dominating nature and fromtheir own wounds that are
unhealed, generations perhaps ofunhealed wounds, then we're at
serious risk of a war that noone could recover from in this
(12:52):
day and age.
And so, for me, psychology andeverything that it has to offer
that I'm talking about, aboutfamily dynamics, is really the
missing link in what we need topull ourselves off of that ledge
.
The truth is that nuclearweapons are obsolete, but we
(13:13):
don't get that.
You know that if we use them,we're done.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
And yet billions of dollars of hard earned money go
into their proliferation.
And it would be just like and Iuse this analogy all the time
it would be just like if anindividual family spent most of
their resources on an arsenal ofweapons that they put in their
closet instead of feeding theirchildren or getting them medical
(13:41):
care or sending them for a goodeducation.
We'd say they were disturbed.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
But we're doing that as a country.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Yeah, I think per capita per year we almost double
what if we spent last year.
So if it was like it's notactual numbers, let's say it's a
billion dollars next year.
We're doing two kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Billions, it's billions of weapons that we
should never create or use.
And so to me and this is one ofthe many points that I make in
my book, and I can't highlightthem all is that that is a sign
of mental unwellness.
This is a mental health issue.
It's not a defense issue.
(14:26):
It's not an ideological issue.
It's a mental health issuebecause mentally healthy people
don't do this.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Right, right, right.
I'm just curious, though I'msure you go into it on your book
, but I would love to hear yourtake.
Do you think also stuff likeYouTube, tiktok, instagram we're
really feeding into that also.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Well, I think the whole social media thing, just
like television, is adouble-edged sword, and I think
we all experience that.
There's people like you who aredoing these amazing podcasts
and really trying to spread good, helpful, constructive,
informative information to ageneral public that you
personally couldn't reach onyour own Right.
(15:11):
So there are amazing uses forthe technologies that we have
and the social media that wehave.
There are certain movies anddocumentaries that are so
amazingly informative andinspiring and that we need them.
I just saw Sound of Freedom.
I don't know if you saw that,but it's I've heard about it.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I never got around to see it in theater.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
It's a remarkable movie, remarkable eye-opening,
waking up kind of movie.
And so, for all the good,there's the shadow side, just
like there's the shadow side ofevery human being, where our
unhealed wounds play out.
And I think the desire todominate, the desire to exploit,
(15:56):
the desire to mobilize peopleagainst one another, that all
plays out in the social mediatoo, and it is very, very of a
great alarm and concern and itcan be very, very destructive.
And it's sort of like, as apopulation, are we going to
(16:18):
eventually, if not now, advocatefor the right use and I don't
mean by that like there's a goodand evil kind of thing, but the
right use of the technologieswe have, in the sense that do
they further life?
Do they further community?
Do they further acceptance andlove and valuing and peaceful
(16:43):
conflict resolution?
Do they further cooperation?
Because if there's one thing weneed to survive here on the
planet Earth, it's comingtogether to solve our problems,
and I think there's so many, butlook at climate change.
Are we going to come togetherto try to figure this out before
it's too late?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, these are all psychological issues.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
This is what psychology addresses.
It addresses the hurt betweenpeople, the divide between
people, the brokenness ofrelationship and its aftermath.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
It's amazing Now that you say it.
I've always consideredpsychology as one thing, but
kind of politics I guess it'sinvolved a little bit, but not
as deep as you're saying it is,and it's interesting where it's
like huh, it's a good point,because I had a guest back in
March.
He's like global warming is notreal.
(17:44):
He's like it's not realwhatsoever.
I'm like why I said I live inCalifornia.
Why is it getting hot almostone degree Fahrenheit every year
since 08?
We're hitting 120s in Buramaand that's not normal at all.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Right, good thing and I talk about the different
dynamics that you find indysfunctional and abusive
families and neglectful families, and that's one of the dynamics
is outright denial of the factsthat you see before you.
I've had clients, I've had many, many clients over the years
(18:24):
who have been terribly abused intheir families of origin, and
one message among many that I'veheard more than once is the
abuser saying to the child we'rethe only people who love you.
No one will ever love you theway that we do, and it's
obviously patently untrue.
(18:45):
But people get indoctrinatedinto believing things that are
untrue.
I didn't hit you that hard.
The child might be bleeding,but the abuser says I didn't hit
you that hard, stop crying.
You're making a big deal out ofnothing.
And these things happen.
And these things happen on asocietal level that people are
(19:08):
withheld from.
They can't earn a living wage,they can't live, they can't find
a place that they can afford tolive in that isn't rat infested
or cockroach infested, and thenthey're told that they're lazy
or that they're deficient orthey're inferior.
Because if you really pulledyourself up by your bootstraps,
(19:29):
you could make it Not true,absolutely not true.
And again, people that breakthat mold.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
But we have yeah, there's always the outliers, the
mavericks, but those are likefew and far between.
It's not anything you can basea study on.
But yeah, it's true, a lot ofpeople like I've been chatting
with my girlfriend and one of myfriends also and I'm both
saying like how are we evergoing to afford a house without
having to buy a five room apartlike a house and then rent out
(20:01):
four of them to four otherfamilies just to barely get by?
But like how are we supposed todo stuff anymore?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Right and I think you know.
And then we look at homelesspeople and we say you know,
there's just this sort of stigmaagainst homeless people when
the family dynamic of the familyof America is creating massive
homelessness.
And that's one of the bigpoints of my book is that we
(20:28):
have to look at the familysystem of the family of America
and say what environment are wecreating for all our family
members and stop blaming themfor their symptoms and look at
the root causes in the wholedynamic of how the family of
America is run.
I'm just curious Go ahead, no,go ahead.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Oh, no, I was just going to say, I'm just curious.
Now a big one I hear and I'mnot going to like say he's right
or right, but right or wrongit's Adam Corolla is saying that
most of our problems in Americaare because there's no good
staple fathers in the house.
Do you see that?
Or is there a bigger, morepolitical dynamic to that?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
That was just a simplification, a bigger dynamic
to that.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I mean I would love to hear it then.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Say, that's a symptom and of course, our symptoms, if
they're not treated, becomecauses.
So I think that's an importantthing to know.
If you have an infection andyou don't treat it, it's going
to create more symptoms in yourbody and it could kill you.
But what caused the infectionis what needs to be treated,
(21:38):
right.
So it's the same with ourpsyches.
It's like, yeah, there are alot of fathers who are not
taking care of their children orabandoning their families or
not paying child support or notbeing involved or whatever.
But what has the family ofAmerica been teaching young men?
I mean, this is a huge issuethat I can't address here, but I
(22:07):
think there's.
There's a whole list of thingsthat are going on in our lives
and what have we taught aboutfamily?
Family is actually the bedrockof everyone's well-being and to
the extent that our families arenot supported, that people
(22:27):
can't make a living wage, thatthey're discriminated against,
you know there's a whole list ofills that there's no lot of
injustice, these things are allbrought together, given those
burdens too at a young age.
What happens to the boys?
What happens to the girls?
Different things sometimes.
I mean because of the rolemodels.
(22:47):
There's so much discriminationagainst women in our society
still, it's just mind boggling.
And yet every person has amother.
And if their mother isn'ttreated well and isn't respected
by the men in the family, whathappens to the role model for
women?
What happens to the role modelfor men of how they treat women,
(23:08):
of how they see women, of whatthey believe about women?
And so, as a society, these areso many of the deep things that
need to be healed.
So the uninvolved fathers arethe tip of a big iceberg, if
that makes sense, and there's somuch about that.
But you know, let you chime inthere.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Thank you, I know I was just I wanted to type chime
in on the, the female dynamic.
That's a big one, I hear, butNow this is from the male point
of view and this is where youcan always correct me and I love
it when you do.
It seemed like the women aremore Selfish and more they're
(23:50):
not looking out for their man.
It's more what can I get frommyself?
Kind of like a gold diggersmindset.
Not all, obviously the arc,especially when I was like
Dating before I'm a current,current girlfriend, it was all
of them right oh, I get a freedinner off of him because the
man has to pay, but I don't haveto put up anything for him
(24:11):
because I'm a woman.
Mm-hmm, that's.
That's more where I'm trying toget at like.
But it probably reason that'smen are very standoff to women
because like, well, we're justall we are money to you, why
should we even care about you?
Kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Well, it's probably some one slice of the whole pie
that you're talking about, but Iguess what I would say as a big
picture image around, whatyou're talking about is that
Historically, women have beensubservient to men in many, many
cultures and had less rightsthan men in many, many and in
(24:44):
many places around the worldstill do.
In many places in the world,women have no rights.
So I think what happens is andI don't think that's true in
America, I don't think that theimbalance of power is as great
as it is in some countries wherewomen just are, they're the,
they're the possession of their,their husband, certainly not
(25:07):
that.
But but I think what happens ona psychological level is, when
people are oppressed and theygain some freedom, they tend to
swing very far in the oppositedirection.
So if it couldn't be about meat all, now maybe it's going to
be all about me.
Does that make sense?
(25:28):
It's sort of like what you, youoften see in countries where a
people has been repressed andthen they finally gain power and
they become the oppressorinstead of, you know, finding
that middle Ground and I thinkthat's the challenge, whether
it's between male and male andfemale.
In our country they're rich inthe poor.
You know all the structures isto find is to stop this intense
(25:52):
pendulum swing between extremes,which is what is a lot of the
rhetoric in our country is abouttoday, and find a middle ground
which is honoring both,honoring the feminine and
honoring the masculine andHopefully creating role models
of relationship between men andwomen, whether it's in
(26:14):
individual Relationships or howmen and women are treated on,
you know, on the national stagefor everybody to see and witness
and Be affected by.
To find that balance.
And right now we have so muchpolarization that is, that huge
pendulum swing is betweenextremes that we have to find a
middle.
So I'm not excusing anyone frombeing selfish or self-centered,
(26:38):
but I think in the big picture,psychologically we just want to
understand it's a symptom of Ofan extreme sort of trying to
find its middle and not havingfound it.
Because I think, I think and youtell me from the man's
Perspective.
I'd be really curious to knowwhat your view is I think we all
want the same thing, even if wehave a different hormones and
(27:02):
different biochemistry and somedifferences between being male
and female.
I think we all want to feelvalued, we all want to feel
loved, we all want to belong.
We all want to feel like wemake a difference in somebody
else's life and that we make,and that they make a difference
in ours.
So I think you know what.
What you're talking about issymptomatic of the great divides
(27:26):
that have been In place formany, many generations between
men and women that haven't foundtheir balance.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (27:36):
No, I 100% agree.
That was actually a big one memy girlfriend had we we've been,
we were going for blood for theother day like she was cutting
emotionally, cutting me up.
I was emotionally cutting herup, we were both throwing things
.
And then eventually, I likeOnce the heated battle was over
and we actually met each otherin person, I told her.
(27:56):
I said I just want to be heardand respected and just I said I
don't feel hurt anymore, I don'tfeel respected, and it's like
she put the same for me.
But I'm like then how am Idoing it wrong?
Like not in a bad way, likewhat?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
yeah, how can?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
I learn.
How can I do it in a way thatyou receive it better, right,
and then that she has same thing.
And I agree 100% what you saidearlier.
It's like a Lot of us men don'tfeel like we're heard.
We're, just like I said, like afree meal, an emotional
punching bag for most, not all,and as I.
Why should we care about yourfeminine energy when you don't
(28:31):
even care about us?
Kind of thing, right.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And another big piece of that, and it's great that
you can just illustrate that,that we're working this out in
our lives.
Nobody me and my husband wedon't have it perfectly down
either.
We get into it and we come backand and what you did is is
really the key, and that is thatyou know we're gonna have
(28:54):
conflict.
Human beings are going to haveconflict.
We are going to bring ourwounds to one another that
aren't fully healed.
We just will, and it's natureof being, you know, in in
process.
But what we, what we need, andwhat I think you found, and what
I know that my husband and Ihave created over a long period
of time, is that we arecommitted to repairing the
(29:17):
ruptures and, matter what ittakes, we will come back
together, and that's what I wantto see in our country.
We have ruptures, we have greatdivides, we have huge
differences of opinion, but weit's so extreme that people
aren't listening to each otherat all and they don't even see
that there's a need to listen toeach other.
(29:38):
It's more like a desire tofoist your opinion and your
beliefs on other people andforce them to adhere.
And what we need and these thisis the basis of really good,
like couples therapy or familytherapy is to create an
environment when each personlearns how to listen with
respect and empathy for theother person's point of view.
(30:00):
And let me tell you I Can saythat easily it is really hard to
do.
When you're activated, whenyou're upset, when you're hurt,
when you're angry, when you'reafraid, it is really hard to do
and it takes great courage andpatience and strength to
actually do that with anotherhuman being.
And yet this is what we need inour country.
(30:22):
We need our leaders to bewilling to sit down at the table
and actually listen to oneanother with respect and be
committed to some kind ofresolution that's peaceful.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
I do so.
It was something you hinted onbut never fully went into
details.
Do you think the divide fromthe over swinging is part of the
problem?
Like I'm not saying this is thecause or anything, but like the
LGBTQ, ai, whatever else nowthey are on, they're super loud,
but I have a lot of gay friendswho are like we don't like them
(30:57):
, they're too loud, they'rewe're getting too much attention
now kind of thing.
Like we didn't want this.
Do you think it's stuff likethat that's causing it?
Or even the people within the,the community, like that?
Or like getting a lot ofunnecessary attention?
I have a black friend I used toPerson of color, whatever the
politically correct way ofsaying it.
He even told me he's like Ihate BLM.
(31:22):
He's like I have so muchunnecessary attention now, like
I feel like anything I do, evenif it's a microwave burrito,
like everyone has to stare.
He's like, don't look at me,I'm not like a circus freak kind
of thing.
So I think, do you think that'spart of the symptoms or is that
the after effect of thependulum swings?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I think there's many causes, so you probably can't
pin it on any one thing, but itcertainly could be part of the
pendulum swing.
I think that other causes arethat people are just so wounded.
Many people who are reallywounded need Attention somehow,
so they're the loudest voice inthe room or they're the most
(32:01):
extreme in their behavior, orthey, you know, like.
You know, you see that in highschool, with kids who start
dressing all in black andwhatever, and it can be for many
reasons.
Maybe they're really being hurtat home, maybe they just don't
have any attention anywhere.
That's positive, so some peoplewill go in that direction.
But I think I think there'sother factors involved here.
(32:22):
So I wouldn't say that it itcomes from any one source.
But I think another big thing isthat we have a long way to go
in working out how a woman Cansuccessfully Embrace her
masculine side and how a man cansuccessfully Embrace his
(32:43):
feminine side in a way that issocietally affirmed, because
that is actually what we need toheal.
You know, women are not justwhatever and men are not just
we're.
We're different, we may bedifferent and, of course,
everybody's different with.
There's no one thing that awoman is and one thing that a
man is.
But.
(33:03):
But psychological health oftencan be seen through a Healthy
balance of both energies, nomatter what body you're in, and
so I think some of the extremesare pointing to that.
We have no way to do that yetin our society there are people
who are working on that and or avoice of that, but societally I
(33:29):
think that the divide betweenmen and women, or the patriarchy
and the whatever, is Stillsomething that really needs a
lot of healing and a lot ofattention, and then there may be
other factors with that.
You know that.
I don't know, because I'm notthat as familiar with that
community as you might be.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Oh, I know.
I just I know of them becausewhen I went to college Okay, I
didn't slow sides, fun story, Iwant to do theater, lighting and
sound and I was like, oh, I'lldo it, because I don't have to
go take English, I still get acollege degree.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
I.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Was only straight guy there.
It was fun though, because Ican make a very convincing Lispy
, mincey, fairy kind of guy, andsome of the gay men were kind
of like oh, my kind of thing.
But but that was a big one,they told me is like we don't
feel hurt other than we here,like we don't feel safe unless
we're here, kind of thing, andthey're like why are you here?
Speaker 2 (34:27):
I just wanted an easy way.
Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
No, sorry, they're like.
Why are you here, though?
I'm like, I just wanted an easycollege degree.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Got a.
Thing.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, and I think I think what you said, though, is
like you know all peoplecongregating together for
support, and so that can createan extreme all by itself.
There are just so manydifferent psychological factors,
or you know things, that wedon't know each person you know
Someone may, oh, kind of Turn up.
(34:57):
Sorry about that.
It's.
There's just so many differentfactors.
You know and we don't know whatcomes from abuse, what comes
from neglect, what comes fromDeficient role models, what
comes from Genuinely somebodyfeeling like they were born into
the wrong body and they'rereally trying to figure out how
to live.
We just don't know, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
It's true, the mind is complicated and we're still
even with AI.
We don't even fully understandit.
I think.
I am curious, though, for onething for you Do you think, from
a psychiatrist point of view,but also from your you as
yourself, what is some of thethings we could do to start
(35:43):
healing the divide?
Is it like I'm not trying toincorporate the patriarchy, but
like going to church more, doinglike picnic tachy, making your
neighbor a good fruitcake, kindof thing, is it?
What are some of the thingsthat we could start doing to,
yeah, at least unite people?
maybe not be on the same sidebut at least you nine wonder one
thing in a positive, productiveway.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah, I mean, I think some of it comes down to how we
just treat people on a dailybasis, going out of your way to
be friendly to a service person,being nice to the person on the
phone that you don't reallywant to talk to or you need to
hang up on because you don'twant to buy with or selling, but
you could still be pleasant tothem?
Yeah, and Definitely.
(36:31):
You know, one of the things Idid I did a fair amount of
research when I was writing mybook, and one of the things that
that I discovered in myresearch was that there are
statistics on volunteerism inAmerica and Way.
More than half of Americansvolunteer somewhere, volunteer
their time, volunteer service,volunteer money To help their
(36:54):
neighbors, people in prisons,under, you know, people in the
inner city.
There's an incredible amount ofgenerosity already going on in
our country and it's not hittingthe news.
You know.
These are the role models weneed to see and hear, that our
kids need to see and hear that.
Our kids need to see and hearthat there's something anybody
can do.
They can, you know, be part ofa trash pickup, bring meals to
(37:19):
disabled people, feed homeless.
There, you know, there's.
There's endless numbers of waysthat people can help their
neighbors.
You don't have to be apsychotherapist to help people.
Love is what heals love andcare.
That's the bottom line of whatheals, and I say this over and
over again because I see thisover and over again.
I've seen it in my own life andI see it as a psychotherapist,
(37:44):
that the greatest injuries thatpeople suffer from Are the
injuries to love and belongingthat they suffered growing up
somewhere at some point in theirlife, often in their family of
origin, and so their greatestinjuries come from abuse and
neglect on some level from otherhuman beings, and they can be
healed by love and care, empathy, good boundaries and peaceful
(38:09):
conflict resolution by otherhuman beings, and we can all be
that.
We can all be that.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
That's beautiful.
I mean, I've always I was justraised by my parents like, if
you see someone on the street,like I do it when I can.
Sometimes I do a pool route now.
So I got to like hustle, butwhenever I have time A couple
days ago, like I saw homelessguy, I literally bought him an
end up burger because this is,I'm hungry, can I get money just
for food?
I promise no drugs, kind ofthing.
(38:39):
And I'm like, wow, I'll just,I'll just go get him a burger,
kind of thing, beautiful.
And he just like literallystopped there.
And then it was so funny.
This lady rolls up and it'slike this and then hands him a
20 and he's like, no, I don'twant your money now, like he
like I'm good, kind of thing,like you're doing out of pity.
I snatched it from her and said, okay, just take this or you
(39:01):
can get a meal later on, kind ofthing.
He's like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Wow, wow, beautiful, and we can all do those kinds of
things.
I mean it really.
You don't have to be atherapist.
You know, deeply entrenched ina healing modality, and many
people really need that for sure.
And if some of our billions ofdollars and we put them toward
helping people heal and buildingstronger, more viable
communities, we wouldn't havesome of the mental health issues
(39:29):
that we have today.
We wouldn't.
We would not have the massshootings that we have.
If people were cared for, wewould not.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, it's sad to say , especially the mass shootings.
I stopped listening to news forthat reason, because I'm like
it almost seems like it's everyother day it's happening.
It is.
I was my old high school buddybecause he said what do you
think because I'm very creativein the right stories, he said
what do you think is the like,the root of the story, the cause
of it all, mike, kids notgetting hugged?
(39:59):
Essentially it's the kids don'tFeel like they're loved by
anyone, even their protectors ortheir enemies.
So it's like, well, if I'm, ifI'm in pain, I said it's a very
selfish way of the mind works,but it's like if I'm in pain,
I'm going to hurt them.
I feel like I'm being stabbedand shot every day, so I'm gonna
stab and shoot them Literally.
(40:21):
I said when it could have beenfixed with I'm proud of you boy.
Take him to the ball game, gofishing, even if he doesn't like
fishing.
He or she doesn't like fishing.
Just take him.
It's like at least someonecared enough to take their time
and resource to bring me overhere, kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
I said yeah yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
I don't say, but I don't know how to spread that
message to the people whoactually need to hear it, kind
of thing.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Yeah, I mean you're spreading it now.
You're spreading it to lots ofpeople, and there are people who
are out there.
Actually, that's what they'redoing.
They're being a big brother ora big sister, or they're
starting a program forunderprivileged youth or
Children who are come fromdivorced homes, who have lost a
parent, or you know.
They're there and we need everyone of them, you and I and
(41:04):
everybody out there.
We can't do it all.
You can do what you can do, Ican do what I can do, and we
need each other because we allhave so many gifts To offer.
And the more a person doestheir own healing work, the less
they are likely to project,project their shadow onto other
people and create this kind ofdivisiveness.
(41:25):
And the more I see that themore people heal, the more they
want to be of service, whetherit's just, you know, being a
better parent or a betterneighbor, or they want to start
some huge program, or they wantto volunteer somewhere.
It doesn't matter what scale,it all counts.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean it's not humans directly, but like well, humans were
involved.
Where I live there's a big hillbehind me and then there's a
park that goes into the hills,divided by this big like like
drain thing that goes to theocean.
This Asian couple just droppedoff a 20 year old so-called a
(42:05):
tortoise.
In the cold of winter I'd leftit there and I'm like that's
gonna be easy coyote foodtonight.
I'm like that poor thing, it'sa tortoise that lives like 300
years.
That's still an infant fortortoise years kind of thing.
So I, literally in my brokenjinky wheelbarrow I ran over,
picked up the 50 pound heifer,put it in there.
(42:26):
And one of my neighbors Ihaven't talked to her other than
in that moment she's like oh so, and so has tortoises.
Drop them off there, he'llfigure out what to do with it.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Kind of thing so.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
I dropped him off.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
So I dropped him off and then he called like a.
So he had like ground turtles,not the like the aquatic ones,
but it like they bury and theylike stays for like half the
year.
This was an actual tortoisethat stays awake all year, so it
destroyed his garden.
Funny thing is this is beforeprop 64 and California passed,
so it ate all his weed too.
(42:59):
Portorto's turtle was tripping,but yeah.
But he even said he's like,yeah, if it wasn't for you that,
yeah, he's like, I've beenseeing a lot of coyotes out
there and this would.
It was like almost 40 degreeswe hit that night, so if he
stayed out, that tortoise wouldhave been done.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Right.
But like then that's where hegot the tortoise to say place.
But then I still talked to himkind of thing and he's like yeah
, he's like I still think aboutyou, like you save that 50 pound
thing, like you didn't have to.
I'm like it didn't deserve thatthough.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Right and I think you know it.
Just I want to say this it's notexactly related to what you're
saying, but it's sort of takingon.
What you're saying is that Ithink part of what needs such
reform in our whole culture isto help parents who mistreat
their children rather than justsee them as criminals, because I
(43:55):
think people are afraid toreport because once the state
and the system gets involved,children end up in often end up
in horrible foster care systemsor parents and yeah, and they're
just traumatized by the system,rather than if we had a society
, a family of America that wasdevoted to treating as many
(44:16):
people as are treatable and somepeople we don't know how to
treat, we really don't.
There are people who are soinjured that they just have to
be restrained because we do nothave the psychological or
whatever the understanding is torehabilitate them.
But there are many people who,if they were given the
opportunity to say yes, I beatmy kid, I was beaten, I don't
(44:40):
know any other way.
I have a horrible reactionpattern.
I just blow up and I do what myfather or my mother did to me.
There are many people who areactually treatable and that
should be our focus Bring peopleback, break the cycle of abuse
and families, rather thancontinue this perpetration,
(45:00):
which is locking people up andseeing them as horrible human
beings, which they're not.
They're acting out their owntraumas.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Yeah, no, it's true, the being in that system would
be the only white kid in prettymuch Hispanic campus.
I joke about it now.
But it's kind of like my copingmechanism.
I did not realize how accurateLatinas are with their sandals
or where they throw it and howit hurts, kind of thing.
(45:33):
And it's not just the physicalhurts, the psychological attack
too, whether they realize thatpart or not.
But I was walking in one of mybuddy's house and she shows like
oh, something like me, I'mgonna get you and throw us a
sandal and I do martial arts.
I just went what, where doesthis come from?
Apparently, that's really badif you catch the sample, kind of
(45:54):
thing.
So and he's like my mom, hedidn't know the rules, like he
literally is jumping in frontand she's like it's set, she
makes me a nice taco Becauseshe's like, thank you, like
she's like.
I realized after I threw it Imade a mistake.
I was like I just I playedbaseball and I do martial arts.
I just catch things that move,kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm, you experienced real discrimination
.
And you know, and I've heardstories from many, many clients
about their history ofdiscrimination and it's just,
it's heartbreaking A little itis, you know?
Black child told why can't youhave blonde hair?
(46:34):
What's wrong with your hair?
Born with this hair, you knowright.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, wow, that, like that was a little like dagger
in my heart on that one.
But yeah, it is.
It's the amount of bullying tothat happens.
I, at least from my point ofview, being a survivor of school
yard bullying and the firststart of cyber bullying Mm, hmm,
(47:02):
it's so painful, but it's not aphysical pain.
That's right.
But if but it's one of those,it's like it's, they're
attacking small things like mineis my teeth.
They're better now because I'mstraightening them out, but they
, they did.
They look gnarled, they looklike cane, like a werewolf kind
of teeth Like, oh, you're amonster.
(47:23):
Oh, you're going to bitesomeone's throat.
Oh, like, stay back from him,he's going to hurt you, kind of
thing.
And I, oh, you didn't even wantto open your mouth, right, I
didn't.
I didn't want to talk, I didn'twant to say anything.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Like.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
I learned to be a ventriloquist.
I could still talk with mymouth closed like this, so you
can hear me, but you can't seemy teeth.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Wow, wow, wow.
And you know this is happeningto people all over the world,
all over our country childrenwho are just told from the very
beginning that they're not okay,there's something wrong with
them and it's bad, and thatmeans that they should be
rejected, they should be scorned, they should be treated poorly.
(48:03):
And you're absolutely right.
You do not have to bephysically violated to
experience just as much pain asa physical violation will cause.
Absolutely Mental and emotionalpain is excruciating and it has
lasting effects on people ifthey can't find a safe place to
(48:24):
be and a healing environment, ahealthy environment or a loving,
peaceful environment to be in.
And many, many, many peoplecan't find that it's not
available to them.
So what do we imagine happensto them?
We just look at them and tellthem pull yourself up by your
bootstraps.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Yeah, that didn't work for me.
I mean, at six or eight yearsold it was the 90s when this
happened, but I don't know ifthat really is an excuse or not
but I was exhibiting ADHD,tapping my foot, like do this,
like I was, I did not want tosit still clicking my pen.
Teachers like you need to putthem on something, sedate him.
(49:06):
He's like, he's too much, he'sbipolar, kind of thing.
I remember this specifically.
I remember walking out andseeing a bird fly right past my
face.
In there, like a, like a poeticway, I walk a little bit I'm
still young and I look down andI see a worm dying in front of
me.
I'm like, oh, that kind ofthing.
And then it go down somewhereand I see a kid like teasing a
(49:27):
girl and pulling her hair and Iget went from sad, happy, sad to
angry and they're like, oh,he's bipolar, put them on drugs.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
And did they put you on drugs?
Speaker 1 (49:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Wow.
And that's this is ignorance.
This is psychological ignoranceand it really it's tragic for
people like yourself who gettreated and seen that way, and
this is one of the reasons oneof the many reasons why I wrote
my book is because I think we'rein desperate need of
psychological education.
(50:00):
The average man on the streetdoes not know the things that I
learned as a psychotherapist andas a client myself.
Not because the average man onthe street is is a lesser human
being, but because thisinformation is not widespread.
We should be teachingpsychology and family dynamics
and healthy family dynamics andabuse dynamics in our school
(50:22):
system.
It should be part of oureducation.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
But that doesn't help the bottom line of corporations
, because if you're that brokenyou're seeking material needs to
fill a void.
It almost does seem like itincentivize to keep us broken
because profits are better forcorporations.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Well, I think that's one of the problems with an
abusive system is that there aretremendous rewards for holding
on to power, and that's whatwe're seeing all over the
country in many, many differentvenues.
And I don't think the thingsthat I'm talking about are going
to change overnight.
I don't think they can changeovernight, but I do believe they
(51:00):
can change and I believe thateducation and healing from the
bottom up if we all do, you knowas many people do their own
work and make their owncontribution there are people
who are running their businessesdifferently now.
There are people who arerunning their big corporations
on models that are sustainable,that are humane, that are treat
(51:23):
people more as equal andvaluable human beings and not
just replaceable commodities anda huge chain of production.
And these models can beproliferated, they can be taught
, they can be.
You know, there's we have.
We have to capitalize on whatwe have.
But, yes, I don't think I thinkthe incentive for holding on to
(51:43):
power inappropriately and notnot taking in the impact of hurt
that so many people are sufferas a result of that imbalance of
power is part of the problem.
That needs to just keep comingto light and coming to light and
coming to light until more andmore people are operating on a
different system.
That's why it'll take time.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
Oh, it will.
I mean I've seen quickturnaround.
I'm going to say, before I evenstart that story, how long do I
got you?
Speaker 2 (52:13):
till.
I'm good.
So you just tell me when Idon't have something right after
this.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
So okay, that's what I was worried about.
No no, no.
So I worked security inCalifornia.
There's this farm area calledlike Chino, uh huh, stinky Like.
I worked there for almost twoyears and I I the gate I was at
I was essentially an underpaidclerk.
(52:41):
I receive all these truckers,receive all the traumas and
jokes and then I throw it backat them because they're the
weird kind of person.
If you don't talk shit to them,they feel bad.
It's a culture, right, right.
But I would also watch as theemployees going in.
I had to watch them too.
And this dude I still rememberit Neck tattoo, big old stone
(53:03):
gate fire coming out with gatesopen, demon spawn coming out and
flying.
Wow, he had all these like SScobwebs, like clearly he's a
hurt person kind of thing, right, right.
He literally said to his onebuddy that drove him out.
He said man, I wish we got inthat car crash, that we passed,
that way I could break my legsand not be here for one day and
(53:27):
stay home for six months andstay here.
We'll call him Chuck.
I don't really know who thehell he is, but we'll call him
Chuck.
And then literally a big wigcomes by and is like hey, josh,
you're a really observing kid.
I'm like 26, by the way, I'mlike I'm 26.
Like I'm not a kid.
He's like you're younger thanme, you're a kid kind of thing.
I'm like God.
He said what's wrong with thiswarehouse?
(53:49):
This is my baby, this is theone that got me to VP of the
region.
I said well, you've been inyour ivory tower too long.
He's like what do you mean?
I'm like you don't talk toemployees.
I said that guy with the demonspawn and the thing he's like
yeah, chuck, I'm like yeah.
He literally said he wished yougot in a car crash, broke his
leg and stayed home for sixmonths on, paid, then come one
day for you, wow.
And he looked and he's like.
(54:11):
I said I'm no expert, butthat's a morality problem, dude,
you're treating him like anumber.
They're feeling it and theyrather be a number that goes
home than work for you.
I said, dude, the easiest way Iknow, because I've done this
before can you afford like 500bucks?
Like first prize winner gets150, two underneath is like 200
(54:31):
bucks and then like 50, whateverdivides out to like $500.
He's like, yeah, like it's sadto say, for a debut worker, 100
bucks is game changing.
I'm like that's what's?
500 bucks out of your personalpocket?
He's like, oh, that's two steakdinners.
I'm like I don't know where yougo, but I want to try that
place out, kind of thing Twosteak dinners for 500 bucks.
(54:53):
So I told him, I said just dogames.
We're humans, we love games,even if they're not competitive.
The fact is the game going onthough, like the whole energy
shifts.
Even the procrastinators arelike okay, well, maybe there's a
chance I can get 50 bucks if Iup a little kind of thing Plus.
And I said and then said it'snot hard, use the company
(55:16):
quarter year, as it doesn'tmatter.
Buy the best taco guy or gal.
So lately the taco gals arebetter because they actually
make their food with love andjust spoil them.
Pay them their whole lunchinstead of unpaid.
Pay them their lunch, give thembecause it is a warehouse for
like board games and stuff.
I said give them the old boardgames.
(55:37):
You had to like throw off the.
You couldn't ship them becausethey were damaged in transport.
Give them the board games.
They don't care if it's damaged.
They can take their new Hasbrotoy that didn't even come out
yet and be like look, look, myboss gave me this new monopoly
game.
Like it's not even out yet.
Let's play a kind of thing.
Yeah, so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
So beautiful.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
He did it.
He did it, he did it and in onemonth.
Let's just say, for numberssake, he was doing 200,000
packages in one day and onemonth of doing that,
implementing it, doing itcorrectly.
I just gave him that knowledge.
By the way, I never followed upwith him.
He went from 200,000 packages aday to 1 million plus.
Speaker 2 (56:19):
So let me just tell you that story is so beautiful
and it's so fascinating thatwhen you treat people better,
they treat you better.
We bring out the potential inpeople.
Look at that, look at what youdid.
You changed his life and theripple effect was you changed
(56:39):
the life of all of his workers.
You better believe they tookthat home with them every night
when they left work.
So that changed the life of alltheir children and their
families and their friends andall the people around them.
And this is the power that oneperson can have.
We can make a difference.
That is so beautiful.
(57:00):
I'm so happy that you sharedthat story.
Speaker 1 (57:04):
I'm very proud of that one and the part that warms
my heart that I never getaround to is so.
He did the little like tacoperson for them in between, but
he did a full feast.
He hired the taco lady, hernephew and her brother kind of
thing.
They had like the whole thing.
It was like a $4,000 or $5,000setup for everything.
They all waited until I came toget food.
Speaker 2 (57:29):
Oh, that is so beautiful.
That is so beautiful and nowyou're sharing this story with
all your listeners.
Who knows who's going to takethis ball and run with it?
So beautiful, so powerful.
Speaker 1 (57:43):
And that's where they all said it to me when they did
the raffles.
One of them I never officiallywon the raffle, but essentially
it was, I guess, because of theextra $100, he was able to buy
his daughter like her specialBarbie that he could never
afford.
She's so happy now that she hasher special Barbie.
It's funny now like the Barbiemovie came out.
This was long before it.
(58:03):
But he said pick any toy youwant.
He's like this is what I cangive you kind of thing.
You made my daughter's lifebetter.
I want to give you something.
And I said, well, I've nevertried that Monopoly Star Wars
one over there.
He's like I want that one forJosh.
The lady came over like all ofthem, like any leftovers.
(58:23):
They gave me like 15 toys to gohome with.
I had to cut a GI Joe.
I lost it.
But I was like, oh my God, Ihaven't had one of these in ages
.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
Oh, this is a beautiful, beautiful story.
And again I just want toreiterate you don't have to have
any special training, you don'thave to have a lot of money,
you don't have to have anythingto do what you did, except the
desire to share love andhumanity with other people.
Speaker 1 (58:51):
Well, and the the wild part is because I was just
a security guard.
So all the the crazy part isall the truckers started
memorizing my days and times.
They would only come to thewarehouse when I was there.
Speaker 2 (59:04):
Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (59:06):
Because I could get in and out quickly.
But also the managers of allthe other warehouses knew my
extension, although I'm sittinghere going like how do you know
this?
Because, like I don't know yourextension, how do you know who
I am?
But they all were asking me,like what did you do to make
warehouse number six the top dog, when it was the laughing stock
of the whole warehouse yard?
(59:27):
And I would just tell them,like it's literally just
treating like a human.
I gave them the basics.
So suddenly that like thatwhole I don't know if they're
still doing it because they'reall obviously there's new
managers and all that and theycome in with their agenda, but
for that time, while I was there, that whole place was pumping
like crazy.
Speaker 2 (59:45):
I want to highlight something that you did, because
it's such a big part of what I'mtalking about, and that is that
you saw all those people whoare suffering in those kind of
work conditions as worthy humanbeings who have an essence
that's worth treating humanelyand well, and more than well.
And I think that that iscertainly one of the things I
(01:00:09):
learned in a very different waybeing a psychotherapist that
underneath everybody's symptoms,underneath their fear,
underneath their hurt,underneath their pain,
underneath the ways they'veacted out and hurt other people,
there is this essential humanbeing that is worthy and needs
love, desires love and is worthyof love and care and good
(01:00:29):
treatment.
And when you see people thatway, when you speak to that in
people, when you see that andthey get that communication from
you, that you see them as aworthwhile human being who is
equal and worthy, it changes howthey feel about themselves.
(01:00:49):
And you communicated that sopowerfully to the owner or the
boss or whoever that man was,and then he was able to
communicate that through hisactions to his workers because
you showed him the way, becauseyou saw those people that way,
and this is one of the mostpowerful gifts we can give
(01:01:09):
another human being.
It really is.
Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
So the fun cherry on top is he offered me money and I
was like I don't need money forthis.
And then afterwards I'm seeinghere going I should have taken
that check kind of thing.
But he was like name your price.
I didn't know how much moneybecause.
So essentially one of theladies in office told me for
math sake, one package is $1.
(01:01:37):
So he said you went from200,000 a day to a million a day
and I said I only asked for10,000.
She's like honey, you couldhave easily asked for a million
and he would have given it toyou.
I was like damn, I should havetaken that check, kind of thing.
But he even told me he's likethank you, he's like I would not
(01:01:59):
have.
He's like I used to be thatboss, the one that you were
talking about, the one that wasthere.
But he's like you're right,it's when you said you're in
your ivory tower too long youforgot.
He's like that's what hit meand that's why I did what you
said.
I said I told I just joked himbecause I was.
I was actually on like someheavy meds back then.
Like it was the kind of like Icouldn't sleep during the night
(01:02:21):
but I slept during the day.
But then if I took like it wasweird, like I would sleep drive
home and then like halfway itwas like a 30 mile drive and
suddenly halfway through I metthe mountains.
I'm like, oh crap, I was asleepthe whole time, kind of thing.
So I told him like oh, youasked a drugged out confluent
tick of a security guard forhelp.
He's like he said, in play welike, but those are the best
(01:02:41):
ones because they have no filter, wow, Wow.
But yeah, it was one of those,though, the way he said he's
like you look out for others.
So he's like it's amazing howyou look out for others, cause
he and that's that's where hepointed out the truckers.
He's like I have guys that usedto run nights that will only
run during your shift.
Now he's like and these guysare used to night shift and
(01:03:05):
they're willing to break it sothey can get in with you.
Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Wow, wow.
I mean really again.
I just want to say the powerthat one person can have to
change the lives of so manyothers.
We just don't know, and we allhave that in some other, in our
own individual ways.
And you were just beingyourself, I was, you're just
being yourself.
That's so beautiful, it's soinspiring.
(01:03:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Yeah, now is there anything in particular I missed
that you would like to continueon or talk about with your book?
That, like I said, like I mighthave missed, that's important
to you.
Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
But well, I think we've talked about a lot, so I
feel complete with that.
There's always more to talkabout because I have many
different things that I'vetalked about.
But I would really just love itif people would buy my book
when it comes out.
I have a publisher now and it Ilove for you, yeah, super
(01:04:05):
excited.
Just signed a contract a coupleof weeks ago and my book, I
believe, will come out sometimein there, hopefully early spring
, but I don't know.
And I would.
I will definitely send you acopy and I would love to have
any of your listeners go to mywebsite, which is just my name,
phyllis Levitt,p-h-y-l-l-l-i-s-l-e-a-v-i-t-tcom
(01:04:30):
, and, you know, sign up for mynewsletter, because then you'll
be the first to know when mybook is available and you can
stay in touch with me.
You can ask me questions,whatever, but I would just and
I'm on all the social media youknow, like LinkedIn, facebook
and all that stuff but butreally, you know, I just am so
grateful to have the opportunityto talk with you about the
(01:04:53):
things that matter to me so muchand to find you as a
like-minded person who's livingwhat I'm talking about in the
way that you live it in yourlife and that's very inspiring
to me and I hope it's inspiringto your audience.
Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
Thank you, and also it's just it's nice for me to
hear like a good conversation,like we had, where it's like
this is where I'm at and you say, okay, I see you, but this also
I don't a lot of my shows, it'sjust they talk to me and then I
ask questions and I appreciatethat we had a genuine back and
forth on this.
Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
Me too.
I really appreciate that a lotand I really appreciate you and
what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.