March 7, 2025 • 58 mins
A wrongfully convicted man walks free after 21 years behind bars. How does someone rebuild their life after losing two decades? What mindset allows forgiveness when the system fails so catastrophically?
Dion Patrick's story unfolds with raw honesty as he shares his journey from Chicago's West Side to wrongful imprisonment and eventual exoneration. Born in 1971 and raised by a hardworking single mother who instilled strong values of education and independence, Dion's path took a devastating turn at age 20 when Chicago police targeted him and seven other young Black males for a double homicide they didn't commit.
Despite clear evidence of innocence—one co-defendant was provably in police custody at the time of the murders—Dion spent 21 years incarcerated before withheld exculpatory evidence finally came to light. The system that failed him so profoundly taught him unexpected lessons about humanity: "Most of the people I was taught to dislike or hate became our close friends. We got to understand we were the same people with the same issues."
Perhaps most remarkable is Dion's perspective on anger and forgiveness. "Anger is a wasted emotion," he reflects. "I could want something else with that energy." This philosophy has guided his eleven years since release—reconnecting with his now-adult children, meeting grandchildren, working in violence prevention, advocating for justice reform, and co-authoring "The Hazel Boyz" to document his experience.
Now 53, Dion approaches life with purpose and gratitude: "Everything—nothing that I don't enjoy out here. Even the bad things." His story challenges us to examine our justice system while offering profound wisdom about resilience, identity, and finding joy after unimaginable hardship.
Listen as Dion shares how trust can be rebuilt, purpose discovered, and life embraced even after decades of injustice. His testimony stands as both warning and inspiration—a powerful reminder of humanity's capacity for both terrible failure and extraordinary redemption.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
One thing I learned about being in that place most
of the people that I was taughtto dislike or hate became our
close friends and we got tounderstand that we were the same
people.
We had the same issues.
That gave us opportunity to getto know each other as human
beings.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome to the Journey to Freedom podcast.
We have another just incredibleedition today.
I love having theseconversations and I love
spending time, and I don't knowif you know anything about the
Journey to Freedom podcast, butI went to a about a year and a
half ago.
I went to a seminar inMinnesota.
It was called the Trusted Edge.
(00:49):
We talked about how to leadwith trust and how important
trust is in our, in ourcommunities, and how we lead
with trust, and it was just somereally good information.
And I called myself before I gothere that you know I'm not one
uh, which has been a theme inour, in our podcast.
The thing has been that, um,you know black men as I've been
(01:13):
interviewing, I did 105 lastyear.
My goal was 100.
Uh, and then the thing was isthat we needed to sometimes see
other people doing the thingthat we might want to do, to
just know that it's possible todo, uh and I call myself not.
I don't need that.
I'm my own man, I can doeverything.
But when I was at the seminar Ifound myself counting how many
(01:34):
Black men are in this room One,two, three, four which told me
if I'm counting which I know Ialways do that means I need to
see people.
I need to know that therethere's possibilities, as much
as my brain and my logic wastelling me.
I don't.
Uh, I kind of believe thatthere was, and so out of that
came okay.
So how do we get thisinformation into our communities
(01:55):
?
How do we make sure that we'rehelping each other the best that
we possibly can?
in all areas is that we can, uh,and so I began to.
You know, a guy kind of sharewith me that that I believe it
came from him that said I needyou to work with black men, and
I was, I was kind of hesitantand saying, okay, do I really
want to find black men acrossthe country that are doing
(02:17):
things, that are making thingshappen, that are giving us our
values and showing us how tointeract in our world and how do
we do it with trust and how dowe do with our faith and
identity and what's all thatabout?
And so, like I said, last year,my goal was 100 black men.
We did that.
As we're recording this and youguys are watching this, this is
(02:42):
the week after the super bowlin 2025 and we had a halftime
show.
Um, that was a gentleman namedkendrick lamar.
With lamar, which most of youprobably know, uh, I, I had some
interactions, knowing who hewas, but he did a halftime show
that I didn't understand and Ithink maybe we could talk about
that a little bit.
(03:03):
I was.
I thought that, instead ofsaying I mean, part of it's just
the rap genre, priorities.
I'm 60 years old and you knowI'm just kind of out of touch.
I guess they told me that theway that the floor was or the
stage was was fashioned after agame called Squid, that I don't
play video games, I don't knowvideo games and all that kind of
(03:23):
stuff and so, but it just as Iwas thinking of the black men
that were part of that and theirstories and their identity.
I just wanted to understand ita little bit more.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
But on the side of it .
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Today we have Dion Patrick on and you know, success
Leaves Clues and folks thathave been able to make it
through this world and throughthis life.
And you grew up in Chicago andyou're not 27 years old, so
you're not.
I mean, maybe you are and I'mjust missing it, but you seem
like you're a little bit moreseasoned than that.
(03:55):
But part of you know, in timeswhen it was part of the roughest
part of our country over thelast, you know, 40 or 50 years,
the amount of things that havehappened in some of the
communities there and how you'vebeen able to interpret those
are super exciting.
And so I've asked you to kind ofshare a story like we asked all
of our guests, you know, andthen we will just chop it up
(04:15):
after that.
And maybe we'll have a littlebit of time to talk about the
Super Bowl halftime.
I don't know if you've evenseen it or you know.
Yeah, of course you did so.
Uh, maybe we can go into that alittle bit as well, but please
start out with your story andtell us who you are.
Thank you for being on today um, I'm dion patrick.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I was born in 1971.
Uh was raised in a singleparent household until the age
of 16.
My mother passed away away whenI was 16, but I had a very
strong, independent mother whoexposed me and my brother to a
lot of different things that weweren't exposed to in the
(04:53):
community that we were born in.
At a very young age she got usinto like musical instruments.
Like I took piano lessons atfive, Me and my brother at one
time.
We could play any brassinstrument, we could read music
and we was in our school bandsfor a time.
My mother was a veryhardworking lady who we didn't
(05:20):
see much of because she workedso much.
My brother actually went awayto college straight out of high
school.
I was still at home with my momwhen she passed away.
My brother was away at school.
I think sometime in life westart to try to figure out like
when did our life go off courseor go off track?
(05:44):
And I think that was a verytrying time for me because we
were moved from the west side ofChicago to the north side of
Chicago just me, my brother andmy mom.
So we weren't around muchfamily that much, and so when
she passed like, I got droppedback into that element and going
back to the west side ofChicago and being back around my
family every day.
(06:04):
And going back to the west sideof Chicago and being back
around my family every day.
Yet I was migrating every dayfor school back to the north
side with my friends that I haddeveloped friendships with, Did
pretty good in school for themost part while she was here,
Started out in honors classes.
My mother took education verystrongly.
(06:25):
For some reason she still hadher high school report cards,
but she had all A's.
If me and my brother didn't dothat, she would pull them out.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I love it.
Is this what you're supposed tobe doing, son?
Speaker 1 (06:39):
We understood the angle early.
She taught us that I don'tthink she knew she could raise
us to be men.
What she knew, that she wantedus to be men.
Like because I don't think shecould really teach us how to be
men because she wasn't one, butI think, like she definitely
wanted us to be upright andindependent and be strong men
(07:00):
and be able to take care ofourselves strong men and be able
to take care of ourselves.
And so for that part of my lifeI was okay until 16.
And then I ran into some angerissues where I didn't really
understand why she wasn't hereor why she left so early.
So I just think I became angry.
(07:21):
I started getting into a littletrouble, which led to a lot of
trouble, and it mostly startedfighting and stuff.
I became angry.
I started getting into a littletrouble, which led to a lot of
trouble and it mostly startedfighting and stuff.
But my brother stayed thecourse, excuse me.
He went away to school.
Then he came home, he met hiswife that he's been married to
since 1989.
Uh, they had their first baby.
(07:41):
He joined the navy and theymoved away to jacksonville,
florida, which where he's stillat right now.
He raised his family there.
Now his boys are grown uh,around 18, 17, going on to 18, I
started running into troublewith the law, like me and my
friends were getting into littlefights and skirmishes and they
(08:03):
were turning into like what kidcat might uh lose his hat or run
out of his jacket?
And they were turning those intostrong armed robberies for us,
when it wasn't starting out as arobbery, but in the midst of
the fight somebody might drophis hat and we'll pick it up.
And so I ended up going away toboot camp for like up going
(08:31):
away to boot camp for like 14months, came home, uh for like
almost four months, like threemonths, had some change.
Uh ended up being targeted bythe chicago police department
for a double homicide that Iactually had nothing to do with.
They targeted seven had nothingto do with.
They targeted seven youngAfrican American males starting
from the age of 15 to 20, andthere was one more guy that was
(08:51):
32, that we didn't know whichwas the eighth person, and they
put us all on this case and uh,that case took up the next 21
years of my life, where I satinside of uh the Illinois
department of corrections for 21years for a crime that I didn't
commit.
Uh, I have a co-defendant namedDaniel Taylor.
(09:13):
He sat in there 20 years for acrime that he didn't commit, in
which the day of the actualcrime he was in the police
station for a city, disorderly,so he couldn't have been there.
And they knew this from the daythat they arrested us and they
picked us up because he toldthem.
After they beat a falseconfession out of him and he got
(09:35):
to relax a little bit, he toldthem like I couldn't have been
there because I was in jail thatday.
They didn't believe him so theysent us over to the county so
we sat in there.
We left the county in like twoand a half years but we ended up
doing I did 21 years one month,eight days.
Daniel did like 20 yearsbecause he came home like six
(09:56):
months before me.
That experience there, I thinkit was life-changing for me
because a lot of the things thatI so-called believed in at the
time I understood now that theywere a facade.
I think growing up in ourcommunities we didn't see a lot
(10:19):
of fathers, a lot of Blackfathers.
Let me say that I think the oneor two that we did have.
Most of us gravitated to himand we respected him as if he
was our own father and havingthat lack of positive male role
models in our lives as kids, webecame poor managers of our
lives and our time and westarted hanging out in the
(10:41):
neighborhood and dibbling anddabbling in some drug selling,
fighting and other things ofthat nature.
So over the course of that 21years, it actually just taught
me a lot about being who youtruly are.
Truly are the one thing that Itruly believe, coming through
(11:07):
that situation, that probably 85to 90% of the guys in jail are
pretending to be somebody thatthey're really not and they're
only pretending to be thatbecause they're adapting to
their environment and they'retrying to protect themselves and
stay safe and, like in somesort of the word, like keep the
wolves off of them, make surethat they're safe in that
environment, right.
(11:34):
And so I think for me, watchingdaniel can't go home, because it
was ironic, because we had nopreparation to be thrust back
into society.
Like they came to his door oneday, told him package stuff, he
went home.
We had natural life at the time, so we wanted an impression
that we still had some courtbattles to go on and things of
that nature.
But they just reached out tohis lawyer and was like you can
(11:54):
go, pick him up.
We let him go today.
So an officer that he knewallowed him to come see me
before he left.
So he came to my cell and waslike I'm going home.
And I get posed the question oflike how I felt that day.
And I think like it wasn'tbittersweet.
I think it was more sweet,bitter because I was happy to
see him wrong, but I was also alittle down because I still had
(12:17):
to be there.
But I told myself and myself,like six months to it, yeah, I'd
be at home, because that wasthe straw that we needed to
break the case wide open,because it proved that their
whole theory was debunked and itcouldn't have been true and it
couldn't happen the way theysaid it happened.
So probably six months to theday after that, my lawyers get a
(12:40):
call.
I'm on the, the yard and thestaff come in and was like they
called me and then they actuallyput the handcuffs on me.
Why, I didn't know.
I thought I was going to thehole or the segregation and when
they got me to my cell they waslike pack your stuff, you're
going home.
And my first response was stopplaying with me Because the
(13:01):
officers had a plan.
And then at that time we were ina very racist part of Illinois
that really mistreatedAfrican-American and people of
color.
So I just really didn't knowwhat the angle was and they was
like your lawyer on the way downhere to get you.
You're going home today and Ithink in that moment, like I had
(13:23):
already convinced myself that Iwas never coming back to jail,
but I was also still doing myjail time as if I was in jail.
So I had to turn on the switchin my head like okay, now it's
time to get back to doing thingsthe right way and understanding
who you truly are and what youmean to your family and your
(13:44):
kids and your future grandkidsand kids to come right.
So my lawyers got there my son.
I got to see him and like freefor the first time in over 21
years, uh, I left.
He was 11 months old when hecame to get me that day.
He was 22.
(14:04):
So I think it was really moreemotional for him because I was
absent of feeling at the time.
So I really had to get backinto the mode of getting into my
feelings because I didn'treally know how to feel, coming
straight from that place andbeing in an environment where
it's not cool to really showyour feelings right.
(14:25):
So it took a while for us toreconnect to the way that we
should be, as well as mydaughter.
Uh, being home has really givenme an opportunity to appreciate
life and like like just earlierwhen you asked, like, what am I
(14:46):
happy about?
What do I do?
Everything, nothing that Idon't enjoy out here.
Even the bad things.
I enjoy them because I'm ableto go through them, because I
think a lot of people didn'teven picture me making it this
far in life, at 53, or being theman I am today and doing the
things that I've done so sinceI've been home.
(15:09):
Initially, I always wanted to goback to school because I felt
like my mother wanted me and mybrother to get a degree, and I
did do that for a little while.
I didn't finish, but I went andstarted taking like some early
childhood development classesbecause I wanted to learn better
ways to teach my grandkids andshow them how things go and
(15:33):
different things of that nature.
And it was weird to me becausein there the term, uh, emotional
intelligence came up, okay,okay, and the teacher explained
to me that we should havelearned this word in
kindergarten.
I was 44 and I had never heardthat word before.
So I'm like, where did I missthis at?
(15:55):
And then, when we startedbreaking down what it was, it
allowed me to dig off intomyself and figure out some of
why I do the things the way I dothem, and getting back into my
emotions and and trying tocorrect some of the things that
I do and how I handle certainsituations right.
Uh, which I really enjoyedthose courses.
(16:18):
I did good in school again.
So it was like riding a bike tome, like education always came
easy for me, like my brotheralways tell people, like
studying and education came easyfor me, like I didn't have to,
I didn't struggle, like if youshow me something, I'm going to
pick up on it and I'm going tofigure it out.
(16:38):
And so that was a part of ourlife.
Uh, so that was a part of ourlife.
And then I also got into theviolence prevention in chicago,
because the youth in ourcommunities are so misguided and
(16:58):
misled where they pillage offeach other like they really like
, see each other as their enemyand it's not the and like cause.
One thing I learned about beingin that place most of the
people that I was taught todislike or hate, became my close
friends.
We got to understand that wewere the same people.
We had the same issues, we allhad a lack of resources in our
(17:20):
community, we all were justbeing raised the same way, but
we had never talked on thestreet.
So that gave us opportunity toget to know each other as human
beings.
And I still can.
I've been home 11 years now andI still communicate with a lot
of them.
They still call me.
I reach back out to theirfamilies and check on them and
if I have this cinema, a littlemoney to make sure they're
(17:41):
straight in there.
I take calls, uh, but in theviolence prevention setting, it
taught me a lot as well, becauseit gave me the opportunity to
go inside the cook county jailand talk to some guys that at
their age was the age I was atwhen I started to make missteps
and do things the wrong way, andI actually had a story to tell,
(18:02):
and so it was like and Iactually had a story to tell,
and so it was like it relievedme of a lot of things, like it
allowed me to really like becomethe voice of the voices and be
able to talk to these guys, andI think it resonated with them
because it was coming fromsomebody that had been through
what they were going through,and so I worked there all the
(18:23):
way to the time I moved.
But, like, the city ofChicagoago is a beautiful place,
right, but I think there's somany like dark pockets in it
that if you're looking at itfrom just the pictures, you'll
be like I would love to go there, but it's also like you just
can't drift off into certainthings, a certain areas, right.
(18:43):
So I think for me, being inthat violence prevention realm,
it taught us a lot, because westarted to deal with uh cbt,
which is cognitive behavioraltherapy.
We started dealing with uhtrauma-informed care.
So we started understandingtrauma and the triggers of
trauma and how things go.
(19:04):
We understand direct andindirect trauma right.
And how those things can affectan individual right?
Because we started to end uptalking to the legislators in
City Hall and they used to makethis statement about good and
bad kids.
I don't like that terminologybecause I think all kids are
good kids.
I don't like that terminologybecause I think all kids are
(19:28):
good kids and even the bad kidswere good kids at some point
until something happened to themthat changed their life.
Because if you're not lookingat the root of the issue, then
you're really not dealing withthe issue, and so you can't just
think like, oh, he's a terribleperson.
You got to dig off into him andsee why.
Like what happened in his lifethat made him become who he is
today.
Right, and a lot of these guysdon't want to be bad guys, like
(19:50):
they just don't know anythingdifferent, and so for me, like,
just being in that space allowme to really like just open up
and get better at articulatingmy message and talking about my
story.
Uh, so, as of now, like I'mjust, I'm just enjoying life.
(20:15):
Right now, I'm getting closer tomy kids, trying to get them to
understand because they're 32and 33 now that they're not kids
, but when they do somethingwrong.
They run from me.
You're not 10.
Like you can still talk to mebecause you're an adult.
Like let's have a conversation.
But I think when they knowthey've disappointed me they shy
(20:35):
away from me.
And it's like just getting themto understand.
Like we can talk about anything.
You may not like what I say,but at the end of the we're
going to come to a solution.
And then I think, like I tellmy kids all the time like I
didn't like what my mother saida lot as a kid, but if I'd have
followed her blueprint to the tI'd have never went through any
of the stuff I went through, andunderstand that now.
(20:58):
Like I understand that ourparents do know best sometimes,
if not most of the time rightfor for us.
So it's like just getting abetter understanding of life and
understanding who I am as aperson and what I really and
truly bring to the table.
I'm just comfortable now inbeing myself, because I think,
(21:18):
like as a kid we set out toimpress people a lot.
Like I don't need anyvalidation from anywhere anymore
.
Like I'm fine who I am, I'mfine with me and who I am and
I'm comfortable in my skinthough that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Lots of questions, um .
So were you exonerated?
Is that how it is?
Did they let you out?
How did that progress?
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yes, we were exonerated.
We have a certificate ofinnocence and a vacate order.
So they actually decided atsome point and it's crazy
because I tell people all thetime if it wasn't for some
people that we least suspected,we would probably still be
(22:09):
sitting there, because we werefiling petitions the whole time
and, in the course of myco-defendant, daniel Taylor,
found a position, that was theguy that was in jail that day.
It happened the attorneygeneral's office asked for every
piece of paper pertaining toour case from day one them not
(22:31):
cleaning up their own backyard.
They sent it to him and as thelady was going through it, she
stumbled across some papers thatproved that they locked us up
December the 3rd and startedsending us to the county
December the 5th.
By December the 26th or 27ththey knew for a fact that Daniel
was in jail and they never gaveus those papers.
(22:53):
Like in the way the law is setup, they have to give you
everything, whether it helps orhurts you or it's a Brady
violation.
So what they did was they nevergave our attorneys those papers
.
So we didn't see those papersfor 19 years.
Wow.
And so when those papers cameout, then everything started
coming to light and they baggedoff of his conviction, which was
(23:16):
we had like what theyconsidered to be a statement
case.
My rapido was 15.
He had an iq of 67 or 68 at thetime.
He was the first kid that theytook in the room at badger, to
the point where he just pickedout pictures and was like, yeah,
I know him, I know him, I knowhim, I hang with him, and they
started connecting dots soeverybody's statement was
(23:39):
connected to that.
When they got to me and myother two co-defendants, they
couldn't get us to sit in frontof a court reporter so they
started handwriting statementsfor us because they couldn't get
us to sit there, because Iasked for my lawyer when I first
got there they never called mylawyer, contacted my lawyer.
So now when they say, okay, wecan't put them in front of a
(24:02):
stenographer and had them type,we're gonna just write him a
statement and that's how we'regonna move forward with him and
that's how it really started.
So, yes, we were definitelyexonerated.
We cleared all charges, ourrecords have been expunged.
So, like as we sit here today,like to them that stuff never
happened, but to us it's forevera scar that we're gonna be 20
(24:25):
years in your life is, was thereany?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
uh, you know, hey, we're sorry.
We're gonna have to give youmoney for the rest of your life
because we we improperlyincarcerated you for 40 years.
What?
Speaker 1 (24:38):
absolutely they.
They never, they're never goingto apologize because they never
want to admit their wrongdoing.
Right, like with me, I ended uphaving to go to trial on a
civil suit and they put methrough it all over again like
they was trying to convince myjury that I was a double
(25:00):
murderer that was trying to getrewarded some money and they
just painted this picture of methat just was like.
I was back in the interrogationroom again in 1992 and this was
2016, I think and when my otherco-defendants they settled.
So they never saw a courtroomagain, but they settle out of
(25:21):
court.
But I actually had to go backthrough the whole trauma of, uh,
sitting through those thingsand them saying those things
about me.
So it was definitely a littlebit worse for me than it was the
(25:42):
other guys and did that end upokay for you or what?
What ended up in the civiltrial?
Oh yeah, we.
Actually we all came out on topand okay.
I think for me, like people askme now I'm angry, like and I
always say no, because I feellike anger is a wasted emotion,
because I could want somethingelse with that energy as opposed
to being angry about them.
So I'm just, I feel like peopleask me all the time like how
I'm doing and my ass is alwaysgreat, my life is great, like I
(26:06):
can't.
I can't complain, but what for?
I think now I'm just trying torewrite my narrative and my
obituary and I want to put someother things on there before I
leave this my obituary, and Iwant to put some other things on
there before I leave this.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, when you um, you had your children, you know
young, you know, you went intoand your daughter's older than
your son.
My son is older than mydaughter, okay, um, so, during
during that time that you wereincarcerated, were they, were
you able to communicate withthem and and were they able to
visit you?
Or was it just 20 years of youhad to re rekindle that
relationship after you?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
got up, I think, with my son it was a little bit more
of a connection because hismother had a lot of people
helping keep us connected.
So we talked a lot.
I didn't see him as much, right, but we definitely on the
regular.
My daughter it would be astruggle at times because she
stayed in wisconsin and, uh, itwasn't as easy for me to
(27:09):
communicate with her or to seeher as much, but we definitely
always knew each other.
When she got to a certain age,me and her her wrote a little
more and just tried to stayconnected that way.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
And so once you were exonerated and let out, what was
that reunion like with yourkids and now they're because
their belief had to be.
You know, he says he's innocent.
I kind of believe him, or Ireally believe him, but I'm not
sure because they haven't beenhere.
But then when they realizedlike this was all nonsense, yeah
(27:44):
, I think like it's.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
it's weird.
Like before christmas of uh,2013, I had a court date.
So my lawyers assumed I wascoming home then because daniel
came in June or July 13th.
So they had all my family there, like my cousins, my kids, my
daughter came up from Milwaukeeand they didn't let me go.
(28:07):
They were like they'rechallenging my petition, they're
not letting me go.
So my lawyer she actually brokedown and started crying and my
family was like what's wrongwith her?
Right, but it was like.
It was emotional for herbecause it was right before
christmas.
So she wanted me to be home forthe holidays.
And so they turned aroundjanuary, the 9th of 2014, and
(28:32):
decided they were going tovacate my conviction.
So they held me for another twoor three weeks.
So my son my lawyers called himand was like get dressed, we're
about to come get you so wecould take this six, seven hour
ride to go pick up your dad.
Right?
He didn't even want to go, likehe was crying.
(28:54):
He didn't believe it because hethought it was going to be like
they were going to get thereand they were going to tell him
they not letting me go.
He didn't believe it because hethought it was going to be like
they were going to get thereand they were going to tell him
they're not letting me go.
He didn't want to go at all.
His mom kind of forced him inthe car and I think it was OK
for him once he got there and Iwalked out of there.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, it actually happened.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, it was hard for him to believe.
And then my daughter, sheactually got to town I want to
say the next day, becauseeverything happened so fast they
couldn't get her from wisconsinand get her down there as well.
So I saw her and two of mygrandbabies the next day and she
was pregnant with my thirdgrandbaby that's neat when I
(29:33):
think about it.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I kind of started the show talking about trust and I
would think you know for you andI might be wrong that it's hard
to trust people After you'vebeen through this horrible
ordeal of you know people justmaking stuff up and you know how
do you go through life withpeople that come into your world
(29:58):
and not your world and be ableto to develop trust uh, I
definitely know I have trustissues.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Uh, how I deal with them.
I deal with them on anindividual basis, like, uh, I
definitely think trust is earned, is not given.
And I think, like I definitelythink trust is earned, it's not
given.
And I think, like, uh, somepeople give it and you can lose
their trust, right?
I think I'm kind of theopposite now where and I saw
(30:28):
that, said that and I saw youngquest is like trust.
I wrestle with it like all thetime, right, and yet I'm not.
I'm not a skeptic, I'm not aperson that goes into everything
skeptical either.
So I do go in open-minded, butyou can close my mind off
(30:49):
quickly and you can presentsomething to me that doesn't sit
well with me.
I think I'm also in a spacewhere I'm okay when people don't
want to talk to me or be aroundme, because I went through that
so much in there that I've beenconditioned to be okay with
(31:11):
people coming and going.
I need to get away from that,because I find myself doing that
with my kids.
Sometimes we disagree and theydon't call me.
It could be two, three weeks goby.
Neither one of us will pick upthe phone.
To get away from that, becauseI find myself doing that with my
kids.
Sometimes we disagree and theydon't call me.
It could be two, three weeks goby.
Neither one has to pick up thephone because I'm in a space
where, all right, you don't wantto talk to me, okay, but this
is my kid, it's not some randomperson or everyday person.
(31:33):
So I think I I definitelystruggle with a lot of things
and then, like I have a a hugenetwork of guys that are coming
home because when we was goingin there, like the juvenile
natural life issue was prevalentout of my friends and did 26,
20, 30 years from the age of 16until they came home and now
(31:54):
they're out doing amazing things.
So we stay in touch with eachother and we keep this
relationship going that we builtin there.
So we all like be that supportsystem for one another.
I have a friend now who's theexecutive director of the
Illinois Restored JusticeFoundation and he did 26 years
and he came home and hit theground running and he's in his
(32:17):
element.
Like that's what he should bedoing talking to people about
being systematically impactedand not someone telling the
story who's never been impactedby it, and I think they love the
way he presents it and he'she's doing amazing things right
now with the juvenile justicesystem right now with the
(32:40):
juvenile justice system.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
When we think about identity, we often talk about
who you are as who you hangaround and who you spend time
with, and you talked about atime before you went to prison,
where you know, after your mompassed away, where you were in
wrong crowds.
And then, when I think of thecriminal justice system and I
don't know, you know, you thinkof there are definitely people
(33:03):
in there that shouldn't be, butthere are people who probably
should be in there, so thatbecomes your.
You know your identity, or yourgroup of people that you hang
out with.
Now you're released and you'reexpected to act and do things a
certain way.
How did your identity shift?
And it sounds like there's somereally good people.
Maybe you did some dumb thingsthat you were able to hang out
(33:27):
with while you were there Reallygood mindsets and you had
classes and that kind of stuffthat were helping you.
But how was your identityshaped, from that boy who lost
his mom that was doing wonderfulthings, to these wrong crowds?
Now you're incarcerated, butwe're around some good people.
What just kind of talk to meabout your identity through your
(33:47):
existence.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
That question.
It covers a lot of things,right, like cause for us in
there.
For 12 years of my time that Ispent in there we went up
predominantly African AmericanPenitentiary that was closer to
Chicago than down south, so alot of the staff there came from
(34:12):
where we came from.
So they kind of understand usand they saw the good in some of
us and allowed us to grow andwe kind of grew up together in
there, because they might havestarted working at 18, 19, 20
years old.
We came in there at 20 yearsold and 25, 26 years later we
all still here.
They haven't retired yet, westill in our time and we had a
(34:34):
counselor in there named MissMiles who started this lifestyle
re-direction class and she handpicked some of us like I want
y'all in my class and when wewent over there it taught us a
lot about men, roles in thecommunity, expectations of us in
our communities and what weshould bring to our communities
(34:55):
and who we should be in ourcommunities, right, and I think
a lot of us brought thoseteachers home with us and we're
putting them to work now andunderstanding that we've always
had a role.
We just didn't understand it asa kid and I think, like for me,
my identity is to me, has alwaysbeen the same Like I'm a
(35:19):
outspoken guy, I stand on what Istand on, I believe what I
believe.
If I don't feel something'sright, I'm not doing it, and
I've always been that way andI'm still like that.
Like, if my friends want to doso, I never.
I'm not a drinker, I don't gethigh.
My friends started doing thatstuff as kids.
I'm like I'm fine, I don't wantto do that, and people be like
(35:41):
with all us doing it.
Well, go ahead, I'm gonna sitover here till y'all through
right.
But I think that came from megrowing up in a family of
addiction and seeing what thatturned people into like my
favorite cousins and aunts.
I would love them to death whenthey were sober.
When they get drunk, though,they turn into like to me as a
kid, like a monster, and I justsomewhere and cry because my
(36:05):
family will start treating thema certain way too and they'll
drag them up out of there.
I was like you to go right, so Ialways knew like that wasn't
something that I wanted to doright, so that wasn't something
that I wanted to do right.
So I think for me and youdefinitely hit it on the head
(36:28):
like I ran across some very badpeople in there.
There's some people that belongin jail and there's a lot of
people that went in there as akid and if you get them a second
chance, they're going to showyou what they're capable of and
I think like, but you have someguys and that I didn't go in as
kids and when there's grown menand this is who they are and
they hurt innocent people andstuff like that.
(36:49):
So I'm not conflicted about isjail needed or do some people
belong to jail?
Some people are sick in thereand then I think, think too,
like jail hasn't even becomeabout rehabilitation anymore.
It's like a mental healthfacility.
They're pumping thesepsychotropic drugs in these guys
right to keep them calm, butthen you send them home and they
(37:12):
can't afford the drug no more,and now they're lashing out and
doing things that they probablywouldn't have done had you not
had them addicted to these drugsthat they take I mean, and you
might not be comfortable, butwhen I think of the 20 years you
(37:33):
were there and not part of aworkforce or a, you know, being
able to have a career or dothings that most people are
doing in their 20s and 30s.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
And then you come out and you're expected to live and
you're expected to affordthings and be able to buy things
.
How difficult or easy has itbeen with you financially to be
able to do the things that knowGod put you on this earth and to
do because I know as people arelistening to this.
Yeah, I know somebody, or I amsomebody who it just seems like
(38:05):
it's not.
It's not working and I can'tfigure out how to make it work
so that I can survive and let.
How have you been able to dothat?
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I think for me, like like 14 to 15 of those years, I
kept a job in there, like sometype of thing, while I moved
around.
Like I still get up at acertain time every day and it's
11 years later, but like I hadthis alarm clock in my head that
wakes me up and I start movingaround, like so like coming home
(38:33):
and then having the mother thatI had and the memories that I
have, like I watched this ladyget up and go to work every day,
so I know what it looks like.
And I think some kids grow upin environments where they don't
see that, so they don't knowwhat that looks like and it has
to be taught, right.
But for me, like my motheralways instilled in me and my
(38:55):
brother like always instilled inme and my brother like the
importance of beingself-dependent and not being
dependent on somebody and beingable to like take care of
yourself and you everybody'sgoing to need some help at some
point in time, right, I think Ihad an amazing support system
around me when I came home thathelped me transition back out
(39:17):
into society and and I had acousin that told me before and
it resonates with me to this dayshe was like don't let people
make you feel bad because you'redoing good, and it went over my
head when she first said it.
Right, and now I understand it,because we have these family
members that will call you for,uh, bills that they really don't
(39:46):
need and if you can't affordthem, that means you shouldn't
have that right.
And she was going through that.
So she just was preparing mefor what was to come, and it
definitely is something that Ialways revert back to when
somebody try to make me feel badbecause, uh, like I'm in a
position now where people don'teven take it when I say I ain't
got it, because in their mind,you got it, I do, but I don't
(40:09):
have it for that though.
Yeah, so like let's, let's,let's differentiate the
difference.
Like I have it, but I don'thave it because evidently you
don't need that, because youcan't afford it.
So it's just understanding like, uh, how?
(40:29):
Because, like one thing I'mproud of, like I'm proud of like
my credit score, I I do thingsdifferently.
Like I just take care of stuffa certain way.
If it's something I can'tafford, I'm gonna eliminate it.
Yeah, I tell people all the timebecause my kids didn't come to
me.
Like you, co-sign for me a cop?
Absolutely not.
I already give you some moneybefore I put my fingers.
Yeah, I will fall out withsomebody about something that
(40:53):
I've worked so hard for and I Itake, like this I feel good
about where I'm at right now inlife and the things that I can
do and putting myself inposition, but I think, like I
definitely had some, a lot ofhelp as far as financial
literacy and understanding whatto do and what not to do, what's
(41:16):
a good buy, what's a lot ofgood buy, and just taking on
those things and trying to getthose off to my kids, though,
because I also, like I'm a guythat want to create generational
wealth.
I don't want to just sit aroundand enjoy it now and then, when
I leave, nobody has anything.
It's like how do we buildsomething to where your kids
(41:37):
kids see this and still be ableto live a certain lifestyle?
Speaker 2 (41:44):
yeah, yeah, like when you, when you came out, you're
exonerated.
So so you don't have to put onthese applications that you know
you're a felon or anything, butwere there but I actually did.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
You did really.
Yes, because it still pops upwhen they do a background check
or if I don't put it on there.
They do a background check andit shows up because they didn't
get exonerated to after all thelegal stuff gotcha.
So if I got pulled over for atraffic stop, they could still
see what I had been in jail for.
So a lot of their questionsused to be when did you get
(42:18):
parole?
I didn't get parole and they'llbe looking at like what you
mean, but I just felt like Ididn't owe them that answer.
I just left it out of the roadlike this, asking me that write
my ticket and let me go whereI'm going, because I also feel
like, too, I'm not that 20 yearold kid that they used to pull
over.
Yeah, no insurance, no driver'slicense.
(42:40):
So I wasn't afraid now becauseI'm doing everything the right
way.
So here's my license, here's myinsurance.
Write your ticket and let me goRight.
But it definitely was stillshowing up.
Even when I tried to gethousing when I first came home,
I was denied a couple of timesbecause they would see that on
my background.
So my lawyers had to come inand speak to some of the
(43:03):
management companies and sendthem articles from the newspaper
that showed them that this manwas wrongfully convicted.
He wasn't in jail for somethinghe did.
They just did this to him.
So some people just startedgiving me a chance and then,
with my rental history, I wasable to get other places, just
based on that, yeah, once yougot going going.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
but at that first few years I can imagine it was, you
know you probably almost feltlike why are you still doing
this to me?
Because the systems haven'tcaught up with the things you do
so now you, you know, I want tojust kind of jump forward.
So now you're 53, you're youknow, you've been out 11 years.
You're doing some phenomenalthings.
(43:43):
What does your life in yourmind look like?
I know the average Black manlives to be 72, but you and I
both are going.
No, we've got to live to 100.
What are some of the thingsthat you want to do?
You want to make sure.
You talked about generationalwealth and legacy and that kind
of stuff.
What does that look like inyour future mind, I guess?
Speaker 1 (44:06):
I think for me, like I love talking to the youth
because I know it's a mentalitything and changing their
mentality and the way they seethings right, uh, I don't really
separate myself from thembecause I was them before, so I
understand.
Don't really separate myselffrom them because I was them
before, so I understand a littlebit, being that we really don't
(44:28):
know if we come in or go on atthat age and we're just doing
things because it's the hipthing to do, like I have people
that talk to me about thesquares or the nerves in school
Now, at this age, I thinkthey're the coolest people in
the world because they neverwent through anything.
And to show you how small thisworld was, I'm going back a
(44:50):
little bit.
The last Cook County State'sattorney was my high school
classmate.
We were in the same graduatingclass.
Really, yes, kim Fox, my highschool classmate, and she knew
me and so just seeing like thedifferent avenues that people
could be taking.
But I think for me, like I justwant to continue to be healthy,
(45:13):
I want to continue to enjoy life, I want to be around like
minded people, I want to bearound people that's trying to
do something positive.
I'm just tired of like a lot ofnegativity that comes into this
world and the things people doand how they handle certain
situations.
So, uh, that's that's for me,like basically, I just want to
(45:36):
be happy, I want to enjoywhatever time I have left on
this earth.
I'll continue to build a strongrelationship and bond with my
kids and my grandkids and justpeople getting to know me for me
and not for things that you cando for them or stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Gotcha, so you saw the Super Bowl.
Just give me your viewpoint ofwhat you or what we can take
from that, um, because I didn'tunderstand it and so I'm a lot
like like you, right, watchingit.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I think we all watched it for entertainment
purposes and we missed themessaging.
And I think it was powerful.
It was strong.
I mean, he talked to the, hespoke for the voices he allowed.
(46:34):
They gave him a platform and Ithink he started out and he said
that the revolution will betelevised today.
Like y'all pick the right time,but the wrong guy right, like
I'm about to tell you aboutyourself in this 15 minutes
y'all just gave me and he founduncle uh uh, samuel jackson, and
(46:57):
he was uncle sam, but he wasalso a planter, uncle Tom as
well, in the same sense of theword, right, and I think he just
he definitely spoke volumes.
He talked about the 40 acresand a mule that we've never
gotten.
You know that they promised uscoming out of slavery.
Like, oh, we're going to gety'all this and we've never seen
it.
And he was just like trying tobring some sense of
(47:22):
consciousness back to us and forus to be conscious of what's
really going on around us, right, because he was talking to them
.
He was talking to the leadersof the world and let them know.
Like I see what y'all doing andI'm gonna try to open my people
eyes and enlighten them.
And I think it's funny because,like, I saw it on social media
(47:43):
when they was talking about allthe things he did and I had to
go back and watch it and I saweverything that they broke down
when they was at it on socialmedia because he showed how, uh,
the american flag had splitwhen it first, when he first
came out, he just was showingthe different things that's
(48:03):
going on in the world right nowthat we sometimes don't pay
attention to because wecondition and convince ourselves
that I don't got nothing to dowith me.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
But it has everything to do with us well, I'm glad
you went back and you watched itand you know and I hope that
folks seek understanding youknow in uh that that process,
because you know understandingand knowing, you know the
message that he was trying togive um that can make it better
(48:34):
for all of us and to be able to.
When you think about living inpurpose, um, and, and doing what
god put you on this earth to do, do you feel like you're now
being able to live in thatpurpose, and can you do that
without serving others?
It sounds like you're wantingto talk to kids and maybe
(48:55):
prevent some of the things thatyou had to go through in your
life, but what does that looklike for you as being in purpose
?
Speaker 1 (49:04):
I think it starts with self, though.
Like you have to put yourselfin purpose and you have to.
You have to live in purpose.
Like before you startinstilling in somebody else, you
have to make sure you're livingthe right way.
And because sometimes it don'tbe the message to be the
messenger, and if the message iscoming from a poor messenger,
(49:24):
we're not going to take it likeyou're giving me a message that
you don't even stand on, like,yeah, I'm fine on that, right.
Yeah, and it's funny because,like a lot of these
conversations we're having, likeI've just had conversations
with people in the last coupledays.
I was just talking to my, my guywendell rob, who's the
executive director now and he'sturned 50 in a couple days, and
(49:49):
he was just talking about how,because I came home like four or
five years before them and hewas like how I set the stage for
everything that's happeningaround us.
Because in that place you get alot of guys that go home and be
like man, I got you, I'm gonnacheck on your mother, I'm gonna
check on your grandmother, I'mgonna see you something you
(50:10):
never hear from them again.
Those guys haven't went a dayin there without somebody in
their hearing.
For me, like I was, I go tocourt dates, I support people
and he, like that, showed himwhat he should come home and do
again, like he showed somebodyelse.
And so that's how that networkof friends that are here now
(50:30):
going to work came about.
Because I think I was one ofthe first to come home and
really stand on what I said.
Because I felt like, too, likeme and my brother, we grew up in
the same house, right, but wehad two different lifestyles,
because high school, when I wasstill younger, then he went away
to college, so I had spent moretime around those guys in
(50:53):
prison than I did my realbrother, so I had connected with
them a little bit more than Idid my real brother until I came
home, like that was a two-and-aand a half year age discrepancy
.
So he had his friends, I had myfriends.
You know, our big brothersdon't never want the little
brother with them.
You go over there, right, meand my brother, we love each
(51:17):
other, we're, we're our onlysiblings, like.
So we definitely connect.
But I think, going through that, uh, uh, I connected with a few
other guys that I consider tobe my brothers, right, that's
weird because when wendell camehome, I went, I was down and I
picked them up coming out of thepenitentiary and we were riding
(51:38):
down the expressway one day andI think I got emotional first
and I'm like turn the music down.
I'm like, look at it, bro.
He like what you looking at.
Like bro, we riding down 290right now.
Yeah, we both had natural lifebefore and we was on the gallery
talking about trying to comehome, but now we're in a car, we
(52:03):
ride down the expressway, wejust left from eating and we're
doing what we want to do.
It's so funny because when Icame home, when I was in there,
I used to get impatient.
He always was like man, youjust have to be patient.
I'm like what.
I didn't want to be patientbecause I'm still in the car I
found myself when I got home andhis court dates weren't going
(52:25):
away.
He wanted him to go.
Like you got to be patient.
He'd be like man, you want tobe a patient.
When you was like no, youexpect me to do it?
Yeah, okay, like we had.
We had these eye-openingmoments since we've been home
where it's like we real, we, wereally free, like and we still
have them years later where we'dbe like because he I did for my
(52:47):
50th birthday I did dubai.
He was there and we in dubai,looking like bro, we in dubai
right now because we watchedthese commercials in zealand and
it was like, okay places, Iwant to go, like aruba, uh, to
make all these different placesthat we had never seen because
we had never really left out ofthat box of our so-called
(53:10):
community that we didn't ownanything in.
Right, we never really left ourneighborhoods and now we travel
in the world and we were ableto experience different things
that we never saw coming.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
That's so cool different things that we never
saw coming.
That's so cool.
Thank you so much for justsharing yourself and your
vulnerability, and I think it'sgoing to resonate a lot with our
listeners.
I was kind of selfish in askingthe questions that I wanted to
know, but there might be somethings that you want to share to
(53:42):
the podcast to any of thelisteners who are listening
today that I didn't get to talkabout or I didn't get to share,
uh, to the podcast to any of thelisteners who are listening
today that I didn't get to talkabout or I didn't get to share.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
so I'd love for you to take some time right now just
to share your heart oh, I thinkyour questions were definitely
on point and they were needed,because I'm more of a back and
forth type of talk, right, uh?
But right now, like me and fourof my co-defendants me, daniel
taylor, paul phillips and lewisgardner we have a book out
(54:08):
called the hazel boys, speltwith the z b-o-y-z.
Uh, it's on amazon and barnesnoble, and it's just a breakdown
.
It's a trial of four innocentmen, young men.
Some were boys because of fourinnocent men, young men.
Some were boys because Louiswas 15, daniel and Paul was 17,
and I was 20 at the time whenthis case happened.
(54:30):
And we just want to get thestory out, because now we feel
like we can tell our own story,we have our own voice and we
also feel like we're the voiceof the voices, because I know
for a fact, wrongful convictionsdidn't start with us, nor has
it ended with us.
They're still happening everyday.
There are guys in there thatreally need some help, and I
think some people need tounderstand that the system might
(54:54):
not be totally broken, but it'sbroken though, yeah, and and
it's biased, like, like ittreats people of color
differently than it treatseverybody else, and I think just
knowing, like some of thethings cause a lot of the things
we say and we talk about.
As far as our book we can proveit through police reports.
(55:15):
This isn't just our wordagainst them.
We know where they started tocreate evidence and fabricate
evidence and do certain thingsto solidify their positions
right.
To know where they started tocreate evidence and fabricate
evidence and do certain thingsto solidify their positions
right.
And even in our, in my trialbecause I'm only one winter
trial on the civil, like theywere still mine 20 some years
later, like I think one of thefirst questions my lawyer asked
(55:38):
them was like when the firsttime you heard beyond Patrick's
name, they said when they wentin the room with some pictures
and show them to the 15 year oldkid, louis Gardner.
So my lawyer, like where didyou get a picture of him from If
you had never heard his name?
Oh, no, no, no, no, we didn'thave a picture.
But they did have a picture andthey ordered those pictures.
They had wrote a police reportsaid clear this case after their
(56:01):
days off.
They had wrote a police reportsaid clear this case after their
day is off.
That was November the 29th.
They started arresting usDecember the 2nd.
That day off ended December the2nd.
They ordered those picturesNovember the 29th.
Yet when you ask them, didy'all have any leads or any
suspects on November the 29th?
They would tell you no.
Speaker 2 (56:23):
So why were you ordering pictures of us?
You didn't have any suspects.
On November 29th they wouldtell you no, so why were you
ordering pictures of us?
Ordering more pictures?
Speaker 1 (56:25):
yeah, you didn't have any suspects, but they had
already made up their mind thatthey were giving us that case,
no matter what.
I think it's a good read.
It's enlightening.
It gets the message out thatrestorative justice is needed.
Be some.
There need to be some moretalks around how that looks and
(56:47):
I think more system systemlyimpacted people should be at
that table, just people at thetable who have never been
impacted, because some peoplebelieve in a system
wholeheartedly, some of usbelieve in it partially and some
of us don't believe in it atall.
Right, but there's a middleground where we have to meet at
(57:08):
and start to make sure it isfair and it's unbiased well.
Speaker 2 (57:14):
again, thank you for being on today.
Uh, thank you for, like I said,just just sharing who you are,
the books, the, the hazel boyselBoys, and please go ahead and
check out a copy, read it.
I'm looking forward to you know, if you want to subscribe or
tell people about it or evensend this out so that you can
share with people some of thehope, some of the things that he
(57:37):
shared with us, and not beingangry you know, it would be,
when I think through it, if Ihad 20 years where I wasn't able
to be free, that I might comeout very angry.
But instead he comes out andhe's willing to help others and
move people forward and serveand try to prevent other folks
from doing that.
And so I thank you, dion, forjust being that man and being
(58:00):
that man who's able to gothrough what you went through
and still be able to share withus.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
And so you know, go ahead and like I said hit the
subscribe button.
Speaker 2 (58:09):
Do those things.
Make sure you get greatepisodes for anybody to watch
and look at.
And then, don't forget, Ibelieve, that you are God's
greatest gift and he loves you.
If you allow him to, and if youdo that, your life could be
totally different.
Speaker 1 (58:22):
So you guys have an amazing, awesome, incredible day
.
Speaker 2 (58:35):
We'll talk to you on the next one.
One thing I learned about being in that place most
of the people that I was taughtto dislike or hate became our
close friends and we got tounderstand that we were the same
people.
We had the same issues.
That gave us opportunity to getto know each other as human
beings.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome to the Journey to Freedom podcast.
We have another just incredibleedition today.
I love having theseconversations and I love
spending time, and I don't knowif you know anything about the
Journey to Freedom podcast, butI went to a about a year and a
half ago.
I went to a seminar inMinnesota.
It was called the Trusted Edge.
(00:49):
We talked about how to leadwith trust and how important
trust is in our, in ourcommunities, and how we lead
with trust, and it was just somereally good information.
And I called myself before I gothere that you know I'm not one
uh, which has been a theme inour, in our podcast.
The thing has been that, um,you know black men as I've been
(01:13):
interviewing, I did 105 lastyear.
My goal was 100.
Uh, and then the thing was isthat we needed to sometimes see
other people doing the thingthat we might want to do, to
just know that it's possible todo, uh and I call myself not.
I don't need that.
I'm my own man, I can doeverything.
But when I was at the seminar Ifound myself counting how many
(01:34):
Black men are in this room One,two, three, four which told me
if I'm counting which I know Ialways do that means I need to
see people.
I need to know that therethere's possibilities, as much
as my brain and my logic wastelling me.
I don't.
Uh, I kind of believe thatthere was, and so out of that
came okay.
So how do we get thisinformation into our communities
(01:55):
?
How do we make sure that we'rehelping each other the best that
we possibly can?
in all areas is that we can, uh,and so I began to.
You know, a guy kind of sharewith me that that I believe it
came from him that said I needyou to work with black men, and
I was, I was kind of hesitantand saying, okay, do I really
want to find black men acrossthe country that are doing
(02:17):
things, that are making thingshappen, that are giving us our
values and showing us how tointeract in our world and how do
we do it with trust and how dowe do with our faith and
identity and what's all thatabout?
And so, like I said, last year,my goal was 100 black men.
We did that.
As we're recording this and youguys are watching this, this is
(02:42):
the week after the super bowlin 2025 and we had a halftime
show.
Um, that was a gentleman namedkendrick lamar.
With lamar, which most of youprobably know, uh, I, I had some
interactions, knowing who hewas, but he did a halftime show
that I didn't understand and Ithink maybe we could talk about
that a little bit.
(03:03):
I was.
I thought that, instead ofsaying I mean, part of it's just
the rap genre, priorities.
I'm 60 years old and you knowI'm just kind of out of touch.
I guess they told me that theway that the floor was or the
stage was was fashioned after agame called Squid, that I don't
play video games, I don't knowvideo games and all that kind of
(03:23):
stuff and so, but it just as Iwas thinking of the black men
that were part of that and theirstories and their identity.
I just wanted to understand ita little bit more.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
But on the side of it .
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Today we have Dion Patrick on and you know, success
Leaves Clues and folks thathave been able to make it
through this world and throughthis life.
And you grew up in Chicago andyou're not 27 years old, so
you're not.
I mean, maybe you are and I'mjust missing it, but you seem
like you're a little bit moreseasoned than that.
(03:55):
But part of you know, in timeswhen it was part of the roughest
part of our country over thelast, you know, 40 or 50 years,
the amount of things that havehappened in some of the
communities there and how you'vebeen able to interpret those
are super exciting.
And so I've asked you to kind ofshare a story like we asked all
of our guests, you know, andthen we will just chop it up
(04:15):
after that.
And maybe we'll have a littlebit of time to talk about the
Super Bowl halftime.
I don't know if you've evenseen it or you know.
Yeah, of course you did so.
Uh, maybe we can go into that alittle bit as well, but please
start out with your story andtell us who you are.
Thank you for being on today um, I'm dion patrick.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
I was born in 1971.
Uh was raised in a singleparent household until the age
of 16.
My mother passed away away whenI was 16, but I had a very
strong, independent mother whoexposed me and my brother to a
lot of different things that weweren't exposed to in the
(04:53):
community that we were born in.
At a very young age she got usinto like musical instruments.
Like I took piano lessons atfive, Me and my brother at one
time.
We could play any brassinstrument, we could read music
and we was in our school bandsfor a time.
My mother was a veryhardworking lady who we didn't
(05:20):
see much of because she workedso much.
My brother actually went awayto college straight out of high
school.
I was still at home with my momwhen she passed away.
My brother was away at school.
I think sometime in life westart to try to figure out like
when did our life go off courseor go off track?
(05:44):
And I think that was a verytrying time for me because we
were moved from the west side ofChicago to the north side of
Chicago just me, my brother andmy mom.
So we weren't around muchfamily that much, and so when
she passed like, I got droppedback into that element and going
back to the west side ofChicago and being back around my
family every day.
(06:04):
And going back to the west sideof Chicago and being back
around my family every day.
Yet I was migrating every dayfor school back to the north
side with my friends that I haddeveloped friendships with, Did
pretty good in school for themost part while she was here,
Started out in honors classes.
My mother took education verystrongly.
(06:25):
For some reason she still hadher high school report cards,
but she had all A's.
If me and my brother didn't dothat, she would pull them out.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I love it.
Is this what you're supposed tobe doing, son?
Speaker 1 (06:39):
We understood the angle early.
She taught us that I don'tthink she knew she could raise
us to be men.
What she knew, that she wantedus to be men.
Like because I don't think shecould really teach us how to be
men because she wasn't one, butI think, like she definitely
wanted us to be upright andindependent and be strong men
(07:00):
and be able to take care ofourselves strong men and be able
to take care of ourselves.
And so for that part of my lifeI was okay until 16.
And then I ran into some angerissues where I didn't really
understand why she wasn't hereor why she left so early.
So I just think I became angry.
(07:21):
I started getting into a littletrouble, which led to a lot of
trouble, and it mostly startedfighting and stuff.
I became angry.
I started getting into a littletrouble, which led to a lot of
trouble and it mostly startedfighting and stuff.
But my brother stayed thecourse, excuse me.
He went away to school.
Then he came home, he met hiswife that he's been married to
since 1989.
Uh, they had their first baby.
(07:41):
He joined the navy and theymoved away to jacksonville,
florida, which where he's stillat right now.
He raised his family there.
Now his boys are grown uh,around 18, 17, going on to 18, I
started running into troublewith the law, like me and my
friends were getting into littlefights and skirmishes and they
(08:03):
were turning into like what kidcat might uh lose his hat or run
out of his jacket?
And they were turning those intostrong armed robberies for us,
when it wasn't starting out as arobbery, but in the midst of
the fight somebody might drophis hat and we'll pick it up.
And so I ended up going away toboot camp for like up going
(08:31):
away to boot camp for like 14months, came home, uh for like
almost four months, like threemonths, had some change.
Uh ended up being targeted bythe chicago police department
for a double homicide that Iactually had nothing to do with.
They targeted seven had nothingto do with.
They targeted seven youngAfrican American males starting
from the age of 15 to 20, andthere was one more guy that was
(08:51):
32, that we didn't know whichwas the eighth person, and they
put us all on this case and uh,that case took up the next 21
years of my life, where I satinside of uh the Illinois
department of corrections for 21years for a crime that I didn't
commit.
Uh, I have a co-defendant namedDaniel Taylor.
(09:13):
He sat in there 20 years for acrime that he didn't commit, in
which the day of the actualcrime he was in the police
station for a city, disorderly,so he couldn't have been there.
And they knew this from the daythat they arrested us and they
picked us up because he toldthem.
After they beat a falseconfession out of him and he got
(09:35):
to relax a little bit, he toldthem like I couldn't have been
there because I was in jail thatday.
They didn't believe him so theysent us over to the county so
we sat in there.
We left the county in like twoand a half years but we ended up
doing I did 21 years one month,eight days.
Daniel did like 20 yearsbecause he came home like six
(09:56):
months before me.
That experience there, I thinkit was life-changing for me
because a lot of the things thatI so-called believed in at the
time I understood now that theywere a facade.
I think growing up in ourcommunities we didn't see a lot
(10:19):
of fathers, a lot of Blackfathers.
Let me say that I think the oneor two that we did have.
Most of us gravitated to himand we respected him as if he
was our own father and havingthat lack of positive male role
models in our lives as kids, webecame poor managers of our
lives and our time and westarted hanging out in the
(10:41):
neighborhood and dibbling anddabbling in some drug selling,
fighting and other things ofthat nature.
So over the course of that 21years, it actually just taught
me a lot about being who youtruly are.
Truly are the one thing that Itruly believe, coming through
(11:07):
that situation, that probably 85to 90% of the guys in jail are
pretending to be somebody thatthey're really not and they're
only pretending to be thatbecause they're adapting to
their environment and they'retrying to protect themselves and
stay safe and, like in somesort of the word, like keep the
wolves off of them, make surethat they're safe in that
environment, right.
(11:34):
And so I think for me, watchingdaniel can't go home, because it
was ironic, because we had nopreparation to be thrust back
into society.
Like they came to his door oneday, told him package stuff, he
went home.
We had natural life at the time, so we wanted an impression
that we still had some courtbattles to go on and things of
that nature.
But they just reached out tohis lawyer and was like you can
(11:54):
go, pick him up.
We let him go today.
So an officer that he knewallowed him to come see me
before he left.
So he came to my cell and waslike I'm going home.
And I get posed the question oflike how I felt that day.
And I think like it wasn'tbittersweet.
I think it was more sweet,bitter because I was happy to
see him wrong, but I was also alittle down because I still had
(12:17):
to be there.
But I told myself and myself,like six months to it, yeah, I'd
be at home, because that wasthe straw that we needed to
break the case wide open,because it proved that their
whole theory was debunked and itcouldn't have been true and it
couldn't happen the way theysaid it happened.
So probably six months to theday after that, my lawyers get a
(12:40):
call.
I'm on the, the yard and thestaff come in and was like they
called me and then they actuallyput the handcuffs on me.
Why, I didn't know.
I thought I was going to thehole or the segregation and when
they got me to my cell they waslike pack your stuff, you're
going home.
And my first response was stopplaying with me Because the
(13:01):
officers had a plan.
And then at that time we were ina very racist part of Illinois
that really mistreatedAfrican-American and people of
color.
So I just really didn't knowwhat the angle was and they was
like your lawyer on the way downhere to get you.
You're going home today and Ithink in that moment, like I had
(13:23):
already convinced myself that Iwas never coming back to jail,
but I was also still doing myjail time as if I was in jail.
So I had to turn on the switchin my head like okay, now it's
time to get back to doing thingsthe right way and understanding
who you truly are and what youmean to your family and your
(13:44):
kids and your future grandkidsand kids to come right.
So my lawyers got there my son.
I got to see him and like freefor the first time in over 21
years, uh, I left.
He was 11 months old when hecame to get me that day.
He was 22.
(14:04):
So I think it was really moreemotional for him because I was
absent of feeling at the time.
So I really had to get backinto the mode of getting into my
feelings because I didn'treally know how to feel, coming
straight from that place andbeing in an environment where
it's not cool to really showyour feelings right.
(14:25):
So it took a while for us toreconnect to the way that we
should be, as well as mydaughter.
Uh, being home has really givenme an opportunity to appreciate
life and like like just earlierwhen you asked, like, what am I
(14:46):
happy about?
What do I do?
Everything, nothing that Idon't enjoy out here.
Even the bad things.
I enjoy them because I'm ableto go through them, because I
think a lot of people didn'teven picture me making it this
far in life, at 53, or being theman I am today and doing the
things that I've done so sinceI've been home.
(15:09):
Initially, I always wanted to goback to school because I felt
like my mother wanted me and mybrother to get a degree, and I
did do that for a little while.
I didn't finish, but I went andstarted taking like some early
childhood development classesbecause I wanted to learn better
ways to teach my grandkids andshow them how things go and
(15:33):
different things of that nature.
And it was weird to me becausein there the term, uh, emotional
intelligence came up, okay,okay, and the teacher explained
to me that we should havelearned this word in
kindergarten.
I was 44 and I had never heardthat word before.
So I'm like, where did I missthis at?
(15:55):
And then, when we startedbreaking down what it was, it
allowed me to dig off intomyself and figure out some of
why I do the things the way I dothem, and getting back into my
emotions and and trying tocorrect some of the things that
I do and how I handle certainsituations right.
Uh, which I really enjoyedthose courses.
(16:18):
I did good in school again.
So it was like riding a bike tome, like education always came
easy for me, like my brotheralways tell people, like
studying and education came easyfor me, like I didn't have to,
I didn't struggle, like if youshow me something, I'm going to
pick up on it and I'm going tofigure it out.
(16:38):
And so that was a part of ourlife.
Uh, so that was a part of ourlife.
And then I also got into theviolence prevention in chicago,
because the youth in ourcommunities are so misguided and
(16:58):
misled where they pillage offeach other like they really like
, see each other as their enemyand it's not the and like cause.
One thing I learned about beingin that place most of the
people that I was taught todislike or hate, became my close
friends.
We got to understand that wewere the same people.
We had the same issues, we allhad a lack of resources in our
(17:20):
community, we all were justbeing raised the same way, but
we had never talked on thestreet.
So that gave us opportunity toget to know each other as human
beings.
And I still can.
I've been home 11 years now andI still communicate with a lot
of them.
They still call me.
I reach back out to theirfamilies and check on them and
if I have this cinema, a littlemoney to make sure they're
(17:41):
straight in there.
I take calls, uh, but in theviolence prevention setting, it
taught me a lot as well, becauseit gave me the opportunity to
go inside the cook county jailand talk to some guys that at
their age was the age I was atwhen I started to make missteps
and do things the wrong way, andI actually had a story to tell,
(18:02):
and so it was like and Iactually had a story to tell,
and so it was like it relievedme of a lot of things, like it
allowed me to really like becomethe voice of the voices and be
able to talk to these guys, andI think it resonated with them
because it was coming fromsomebody that had been through
what they were going through,and so I worked there all the
(18:23):
way to the time I moved.
But, like, the city ofChicagoago is a beautiful place,
right, but I think there's somany like dark pockets in it
that if you're looking at itfrom just the pictures, you'll
be like I would love to go there, but it's also like you just
can't drift off into certainthings, a certain areas, right.
(18:43):
So I think for me, being inthat violence prevention realm,
it taught us a lot, because westarted to deal with uh cbt,
which is cognitive behavioraltherapy.
We started dealing with uhtrauma-informed care.
So we started understandingtrauma and the triggers of
trauma and how things go.
(19:04):
We understand direct andindirect trauma right.
And how those things can affectan individual right?
Because we started to end uptalking to the legislators in
City Hall and they used to makethis statement about good and
bad kids.
I don't like that terminologybecause I think all kids are
good kids.
I don't like that terminologybecause I think all kids are
(19:28):
good kids and even the bad kidswere good kids at some point
until something happened to themthat changed their life.
Because if you're not lookingat the root of the issue, then
you're really not dealing withthe issue, and so you can't just
think like, oh, he's a terribleperson.
You got to dig off into him andsee why.
Like what happened in his lifethat made him become who he is
today.
Right, and a lot of these guysdon't want to be bad guys, like
(19:50):
they just don't know anythingdifferent, and so for me, like,
just being in that space allowme to really like just open up
and get better at articulatingmy message and talking about my
story.
Uh, so, as of now, like I'mjust, I'm just enjoying life.
(20:15):
Right now, I'm getting closer tomy kids, trying to get them to
understand because they're 32and 33 now that they're not kids
, but when they do somethingwrong.
They run from me.
You're not 10.
Like you can still talk to mebecause you're an adult.
Like let's have a conversation.
But I think when they knowthey've disappointed me they shy
(20:35):
away from me.
And it's like just getting themto understand.
Like we can talk about anything.
You may not like what I say,but at the end of the we're
going to come to a solution.
And then I think, like I tellmy kids all the time like I
didn't like what my mother saida lot as a kid, but if I'd have
followed her blueprint to the tI'd have never went through any
of the stuff I went through, andunderstand that now.
(20:58):
Like I understand that ourparents do know best sometimes,
if not most of the time rightfor for us.
So it's like just getting abetter understanding of life and
understanding who I am as aperson and what I really and
truly bring to the table.
I'm just comfortable now inbeing myself, because I think,
(21:18):
like as a kid we set out toimpress people a lot.
Like I don't need anyvalidation from anywhere anymore
.
Like I'm fine who I am, I'mfine with me and who I am and
I'm comfortable in my skinthough that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Lots of questions, um .
So were you exonerated?
Is that how it is?
Did they let you out?
How did that progress?
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yes, we were exonerated.
We have a certificate ofinnocence and a vacate order.
So they actually decided atsome point and it's crazy
because I tell people all thetime if it wasn't for some
people that we least suspected,we would probably still be
(22:09):
sitting there, because we werefiling petitions the whole time
and, in the course of myco-defendant, daniel Taylor,
found a position, that was theguy that was in jail that day.
It happened the attorneygeneral's office asked for every
piece of paper pertaining toour case from day one them not
(22:31):
cleaning up their own backyard.
They sent it to him and as thelady was going through it, she
stumbled across some papers thatproved that they locked us up
December the 3rd and startedsending us to the county
December the 5th.
By December the 26th or 27ththey knew for a fact that Daniel
was in jail and they never gaveus those papers.
(22:53):
Like in the way the law is setup, they have to give you
everything, whether it helps orhurts you or it's a Brady
violation.
So what they did was they nevergave our attorneys those papers
.
So we didn't see those papersfor 19 years.
Wow.
And so when those papers cameout, then everything started
coming to light and they baggedoff of his conviction, which was
(23:16):
we had like what theyconsidered to be a statement
case.
My rapido was 15.
He had an iq of 67 or 68 at thetime.
He was the first kid that theytook in the room at badger, to
the point where he just pickedout pictures and was like, yeah,
I know him, I know him, I knowhim, I hang with him, and they
started connecting dots soeverybody's statement was
(23:39):
connected to that.
When they got to me and myother two co-defendants, they
couldn't get us to sit in frontof a court reporter so they
started handwriting statementsfor us because they couldn't get
us to sit there, because Iasked for my lawyer when I first
got there they never called mylawyer, contacted my lawyer.
So now when they say, okay, wecan't put them in front of a
(24:02):
stenographer and had them type,we're gonna just write him a
statement and that's how we'regonna move forward with him and
that's how it really started.
So, yes, we were definitelyexonerated.
We cleared all charges, ourrecords have been expunged.
So, like as we sit here today,like to them that stuff never
happened, but to us it's forevera scar that we're gonna be 20
(24:25):
years in your life is, was thereany?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
uh, you know, hey, we're sorry.
We're gonna have to give youmoney for the rest of your life
because we we improperlyincarcerated you for 40 years.
What?
Speaker 1 (24:38):
absolutely they.
They never, they're never goingto apologize because they never
want to admit their wrongdoing.
Right, like with me, I ended uphaving to go to trial on a
civil suit and they put methrough it all over again like
they was trying to convince myjury that I was a double
(25:00):
murderer that was trying to getrewarded some money and they
just painted this picture of methat just was like.
I was back in the interrogationroom again in 1992 and this was
2016, I think and when my otherco-defendants they settled.
So they never saw a courtroomagain, but they settle out of
(25:21):
court.
But I actually had to go backthrough the whole trauma of, uh,
sitting through those thingsand them saying those things
about me.
So it was definitely a littlebit worse for me than it was the
(25:42):
other guys and did that end upokay for you or what?
What ended up in the civiltrial?
Oh yeah, we.
Actually we all came out on topand okay.
I think for me, like people askme now I'm angry, like and I
always say no, because I feellike anger is a wasted emotion,
because I could want somethingelse with that energy as opposed
to being angry about them.
So I'm just, I feel like peopleask me all the time like how
I'm doing and my ass is alwaysgreat, my life is great, like I
(26:06):
can't.
I can't complain, but what for?
I think now I'm just trying torewrite my narrative and my
obituary and I want to put someother things on there before I
leave this my obituary, and Iwant to put some other things on
there before I leave this.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, when you um, you had your children, you know
young, you know, you went intoand your daughter's older than
your son.
My son is older than mydaughter, okay, um, so, during
during that time that you wereincarcerated, were they, were
you able to communicate withthem and and were they able to
visit you?
Or was it just 20 years of youhad to re rekindle that
relationship after you?
Speaker 1 (26:45):
got up, I think, with my son it was a little bit more
of a connection because hismother had a lot of people
helping keep us connected.
So we talked a lot.
I didn't see him as much, right, but we definitely on the
regular.
My daughter it would be astruggle at times because she
stayed in wisconsin and, uh, itwasn't as easy for me to
(27:09):
communicate with her or to seeher as much, but we definitely
always knew each other.
When she got to a certain age,me and her her wrote a little
more and just tried to stayconnected that way.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
And so once you were exonerated and let out, what was
that reunion like with yourkids and now they're because
their belief had to be.
You know, he says he's innocent.
I kind of believe him, or Ireally believe him, but I'm not
sure because they haven't beenhere.
But then when they realizedlike this was all nonsense, yeah
(27:44):
, I think like it's.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
it's weird.
Like before christmas of uh,2013, I had a court date.
So my lawyers assumed I wascoming home then because daniel
came in June or July 13th.
So they had all my family there, like my cousins, my kids, my
daughter came up from Milwaukeeand they didn't let me go.
(28:07):
They were like they'rechallenging my petition, they're
not letting me go.
So my lawyer she actually brokedown and started crying and my
family was like what's wrongwith her?
Right, but it was like.
It was emotional for herbecause it was right before
christmas.
So she wanted me to be home forthe holidays.
And so they turned aroundjanuary, the 9th of 2014, and
(28:32):
decided they were going tovacate my conviction.
So they held me for another twoor three weeks.
So my son my lawyers called himand was like get dressed, we're
about to come get you so wecould take this six, seven hour
ride to go pick up your dad.
Right?
He didn't even want to go, likehe was crying.
(28:54):
He didn't believe it because hethought it was going to be like
they were going to get thereand they were going to tell him
they not letting me go.
He didn't believe it because hethought it was going to be like
they were going to get thereand they were going to tell him
they're not letting me go.
He didn't want to go at all.
His mom kind of forced him inthe car and I think it was OK
for him once he got there and Iwalked out of there.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah, it actually happened.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, it was hard for him to believe.
And then my daughter, sheactually got to town I want to
say the next day, becauseeverything happened so fast they
couldn't get her from wisconsinand get her down there as well.
So I saw her and two of mygrandbabies the next day and she
was pregnant with my thirdgrandbaby that's neat when I
(29:33):
think about it.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I kind of started the show talking about trust and I
would think you know for you andI might be wrong that it's hard
to trust people After you'vebeen through this horrible
ordeal of you know people justmaking stuff up and you know how
do you go through life withpeople that come into your world
(29:58):
and not your world and be ableto to develop trust uh, I
definitely know I have trustissues.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Uh, how I deal with them.
I deal with them on anindividual basis, like, uh, I
definitely think trust is earned, is not given.
And I think, like I definitelythink trust is earned, it's not
given.
And I think, like, uh, somepeople give it and you can lose
their trust, right?
I think I'm kind of theopposite now where and I saw
(30:28):
that, said that and I saw youngquest is like trust.
I wrestle with it like all thetime, right, and yet I'm not.
I'm not a skeptic, I'm not aperson that goes into everything
skeptical either.
So I do go in open-minded, butyou can close my mind off
(30:49):
quickly and you can presentsomething to me that doesn't sit
well with me.
I think I'm also in a spacewhere I'm okay when people don't
want to talk to me or be aroundme, because I went through that
so much in there that I've beenconditioned to be okay with
(31:11):
people coming and going.
I need to get away from that,because I find myself doing that
with my kids.
Sometimes we disagree and theydon't call me.
It could be two, three weeks goby.
Neither one of us will pick upthe phone.
To get away from that, becauseI find myself doing that with my
kids.
Sometimes we disagree and theydon't call me.
It could be two, three weeks goby.
Neither one has to pick up thephone because I'm in a space
where, all right, you don't wantto talk to me, okay, but this
is my kid, it's not some randomperson or everyday person.
(31:33):
So I think I I definitelystruggle with a lot of things
and then, like I have a a hugenetwork of guys that are coming
home because when we was goingin there, like the juvenile
natural life issue was prevalentout of my friends and did 26,
20, 30 years from the age of 16until they came home and now
(31:54):
they're out doing amazing things.
So we stay in touch with eachother and we keep this
relationship going that we builtin there.
So we all like be that supportsystem for one another.
I have a friend now who's theexecutive director of the
Illinois Restored JusticeFoundation and he did 26 years
and he came home and hit theground running and he's in his
(32:17):
element.
Like that's what he should bedoing talking to people about
being systematically impactedand not someone telling the
story who's never been impactedby it, and I think they love the
way he presents it and he'she's doing amazing things right
now with the juvenile justicesystem right now with the
(32:40):
juvenile justice system.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
When we think about identity, we often talk about
who you are as who you hangaround and who you spend time
with, and you talked about atime before you went to prison,
where you know, after your mompassed away, where you were in
wrong crowds.
And then, when I think of thecriminal justice system and I
don't know, you know, you thinkof there are definitely people
(33:03):
in there that shouldn't be, butthere are people who probably
should be in there, so thatbecomes your.
You know your identity, or yourgroup of people that you hang
out with.
Now you're released and you'reexpected to act and do things a
certain way.
How did your identity shift?
And it sounds like there's somereally good people.
Maybe you did some dumb thingsthat you were able to hang out
(33:27):
with while you were there Reallygood mindsets and you had
classes and that kind of stuffthat were helping you.
But how was your identityshaped, from that boy who lost
his mom that was doing wonderfulthings, to these wrong crowds?
Now you're incarcerated, butwe're around some good people.
What just kind of talk to meabout your identity through your
(33:47):
existence.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
That question.
It covers a lot of things,right, like cause for us in
there.
For 12 years of my time that Ispent in there we went up
predominantly African AmericanPenitentiary that was closer to
Chicago than down south, so alot of the staff there came from
(34:12):
where we came from.
So they kind of understand usand they saw the good in some of
us and allowed us to grow andwe kind of grew up together in
there, because they might havestarted working at 18, 19, 20
years old.
We came in there at 20 yearsold and 25, 26 years later we
all still here.
They haven't retired yet, westill in our time and we had a
(34:34):
counselor in there named MissMiles who started this lifestyle
re-direction class and she handpicked some of us like I want
y'all in my class and when wewent over there it taught us a
lot about men, roles in thecommunity, expectations of us in
our communities and what weshould bring to our communities
(34:55):
and who we should be in ourcommunities, right, and I think
a lot of us brought thoseteachers home with us and we're
putting them to work now andunderstanding that we've always
had a role.
We just didn't understand it asa kid and I think, like for me,
my identity is to me, has alwaysbeen the same Like I'm a
(35:19):
outspoken guy, I stand on what Istand on, I believe what I
believe.
If I don't feel something'sright, I'm not doing it, and
I've always been that way andI'm still like that.
Like, if my friends want to doso, I never.
I'm not a drinker, I don't gethigh.
My friends started doing thatstuff as kids.
I'm like I'm fine, I don't wantto do that, and people be like
(35:41):
with all us doing it.
Well, go ahead, I'm gonna sitover here till y'all through
right.
But I think that came from megrowing up in a family of
addiction and seeing what thatturned people into like my
favorite cousins and aunts.
I would love them to death whenthey were sober.
When they get drunk, though,they turn into like to me as a
kid, like a monster, and I justsomewhere and cry because my
(36:05):
family will start treating thema certain way too and they'll
drag them up out of there.
I was like you to go right, so Ialways knew like that wasn't
something that I wanted to doright, so that wasn't something
that I wanted to do right.
So I think for me and youdefinitely hit it on the head
(36:28):
like I ran across some very badpeople in there.
There's some people that belongin jail and there's a lot of
people that went in there as akid and if you get them a second
chance, they're going to showyou what they're capable of and
I think like, but you have someguys and that I didn't go in as
kids and when there's grown menand this is who they are and
they hurt innocent people andstuff like that.
(36:49):
So I'm not conflicted about isjail needed or do some people
belong to jail?
Some people are sick in thereand then I think, think too,
like jail hasn't even becomeabout rehabilitation anymore.
It's like a mental healthfacility.
They're pumping thesepsychotropic drugs in these guys
right to keep them calm, butthen you send them home and they
(37:12):
can't afford the drug no more,and now they're lashing out and
doing things that they probablywouldn't have done had you not
had them addicted to these drugsthat they take I mean, and you
might not be comfortable, butwhen I think of the 20 years you
(37:33):
were there and not part of aworkforce or a, you know, being
able to have a career or dothings that most people are
doing in their 20s and 30s.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
And then you come out and you're expected to live and
you're expected to affordthings and be able to buy things
.
How difficult or easy has itbeen with you financially to be
able to do the things that knowGod put you on this earth and to
do because I know as people arelistening to this.
Yeah, I know somebody, or I amsomebody who it just seems like
(38:05):
it's not.
It's not working and I can'tfigure out how to make it work
so that I can survive and let.
How have you been able to dothat?
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I think for me, like like 14 to 15 of those years, I
kept a job in there, like sometype of thing, while I moved
around.
Like I still get up at acertain time every day and it's
11 years later, but like I hadthis alarm clock in my head that
wakes me up and I start movingaround, like so like coming home
(38:33):
and then having the mother thatI had and the memories that I
have, like I watched this ladyget up and go to work every day,
so I know what it looks like.
And I think some kids grow upin environments where they don't
see that, so they don't knowwhat that looks like and it has
to be taught, right.
But for me, like my motheralways instilled in me and my
(38:55):
brother like always instilled inme and my brother like the
importance of beingself-dependent and not being
dependent on somebody and beingable to like take care of
yourself and you everybody'sgoing to need some help at some
point in time, right, I think Ihad an amazing support system
around me when I came home thathelped me transition back out
(39:17):
into society and and I had acousin that told me before and
it resonates with me to this dayshe was like don't let people
make you feel bad because you'redoing good, and it went over my
head when she first said it.
Right, and now I understand it,because we have these family
members that will call you for,uh, bills that they really don't
(39:46):
need and if you can't affordthem, that means you shouldn't
have that right.
And she was going through that.
So she just was preparing mefor what was to come, and it
definitely is something that Ialways revert back to when
somebody try to make me feel badbecause, uh, like I'm in a
position now where people don'teven take it when I say I ain't
got it, because in their mind,you got it, I do, but I don't
(40:09):
have it for that though.
Yeah, so like let's, let's,let's differentiate the
difference.
Like I have it, but I don'thave it because evidently you
don't need that, because youcan't afford it.
So it's just understanding like, uh, how?
(40:29):
Because, like one thing I'mproud of, like I'm proud of like
my credit score, I I do thingsdifferently.
Like I just take care of stuffa certain way.
If it's something I can'tafford, I'm gonna eliminate it.
Yeah, I tell people all the timebecause my kids didn't come to
me.
Like you, co-sign for me a cop?
Absolutely not.
I already give you some moneybefore I put my fingers.
Yeah, I will fall out withsomebody about something that
(40:53):
I've worked so hard for and I Itake, like this I feel good
about where I'm at right now inlife and the things that I can
do and putting myself inposition, but I think, like I
definitely had some, a lot ofhelp as far as financial
literacy and understanding whatto do and what not to do, what's
(41:16):
a good buy, what's a lot ofgood buy, and just taking on
those things and trying to getthose off to my kids, though,
because I also, like I'm a guythat want to create generational
wealth.
I don't want to just sit aroundand enjoy it now and then, when
I leave, nobody has anything.
It's like how do we buildsomething to where your kids
(41:37):
kids see this and still be ableto live a certain lifestyle?
Speaker 2 (41:44):
yeah, yeah, like when you, when you came out, you're
exonerated.
So so you don't have to put onthese applications that you know
you're a felon or anything, butwere there but I actually did.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
You did really.
Yes, because it still pops upwhen they do a background check
or if I don't put it on there.
They do a background check andit shows up because they didn't
get exonerated to after all thelegal stuff gotcha.
So if I got pulled over for atraffic stop, they could still
see what I had been in jail for.
So a lot of their questionsused to be when did you get
(42:18):
parole?
I didn't get parole and they'llbe looking at like what you
mean, but I just felt like Ididn't owe them that answer.
I just left it out of the roadlike this, asking me that write
my ticket and let me go whereI'm going, because I also feel
like, too, I'm not that 20 yearold kid that they used to pull
over.
Yeah, no insurance, no driver'slicense.
(42:40):
So I wasn't afraid now becauseI'm doing everything the right
way.
So here's my license, here's myinsurance.
Write your ticket and let me goRight.
But it definitely was stillshowing up.
Even when I tried to gethousing when I first came home,
I was denied a couple of timesbecause they would see that on
my background.
So my lawyers had to come inand speak to some of the
(43:03):
management companies and sendthem articles from the newspaper
that showed them that this manwas wrongfully convicted.
He wasn't in jail for somethinghe did.
They just did this to him.
So some people just startedgiving me a chance and then,
with my rental history, I wasable to get other places, just
based on that, yeah, once yougot going going.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
but at that first few years I can imagine it was, you
know you probably almost feltlike why are you still doing
this to me?
Because the systems haven'tcaught up with the things you do
so now you, you know, I want tojust kind of jump forward.
So now you're 53, you're youknow, you've been out 11 years.
You're doing some phenomenalthings.
(43:43):
What does your life in yourmind look like?
I know the average Black manlives to be 72, but you and I
both are going.
No, we've got to live to 100.
What are some of the thingsthat you want to do?
You want to make sure.
You talked about generationalwealth and legacy and that kind
of stuff.
What does that look like inyour future mind, I guess?
Speaker 1 (44:06):
I think for me, like I love talking to the youth
because I know it's a mentalitything and changing their
mentality and the way they seethings right, uh, I don't really
separate myself from thembecause I was them before, so I
understand.
Don't really separate myselffrom them because I was them
before, so I understand a littlebit, being that we really don't
(44:28):
know if we come in or go on atthat age and we're just doing
things because it's the hipthing to do, like I have people
that talk to me about thesquares or the nerves in school
Now, at this age, I thinkthey're the coolest people in
the world because they neverwent through anything.
And to show you how small thisworld was, I'm going back a
(44:50):
little bit.
The last Cook County State'sattorney was my high school
classmate.
We were in the same graduatingclass.
Really, yes, kim Fox, my highschool classmate, and she knew
me and so just seeing like thedifferent avenues that people
could be taking.
But I think for me, like I justwant to continue to be healthy,
(45:13):
I want to continue to enjoy life, I want to be around like
minded people, I want to bearound people that's trying to
do something positive.
I'm just tired of like a lot ofnegativity that comes into this
world and the things people doand how they handle certain
situations.
So, uh, that's that's for me,like basically, I just want to
(45:36):
be happy, I want to enjoywhatever time I have left on
this earth.
I'll continue to build a strongrelationship and bond with my
kids and my grandkids and justpeople getting to know me for me
and not for things that you cando for them or stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Gotcha, so you saw the Super Bowl.
Just give me your viewpoint ofwhat you or what we can take
from that, um, because I didn'tunderstand it and so I'm a lot
like like you, right, watchingit.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
I think we all watched it for entertainment
purposes and we missed themessaging.
And I think it was powerful.
It was strong.
I mean, he talked to the, hespoke for the voices he allowed.
(46:34):
They gave him a platform and Ithink he started out and he said
that the revolution will betelevised today.
Like y'all pick the right time,but the wrong guy right, like
I'm about to tell you aboutyourself in this 15 minutes
y'all just gave me and he founduncle uh uh, samuel jackson, and
(46:57):
he was uncle sam, but he wasalso a planter, uncle Tom as
well, in the same sense of theword, right, and I think he just
he definitely spoke volumes.
He talked about the 40 acresand a mule that we've never
gotten.
You know that they promised uscoming out of slavery.
Like, oh, we're going to gety'all this and we've never seen
it.
And he was just like trying tobring some sense of
(47:22):
consciousness back to us and forus to be conscious of what's
really going on around us, right, because he was talking to them
.
He was talking to the leadersof the world and let them know.
Like I see what y'all doing andI'm gonna try to open my people
eyes and enlighten them.
And I think it's funny because,like, I saw it on social media
(47:43):
when they was talking about allthe things he did and I had to
go back and watch it and I saweverything that they broke down
when they was at it on socialmedia because he showed how, uh,
the american flag had splitwhen it first, when he first
came out, he just was showingthe different things that's
(48:03):
going on in the world right nowthat we sometimes don't pay
attention to because wecondition and convince ourselves
that I don't got nothing to dowith me.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
But it has everything to do with us well, I'm glad
you went back and you watched itand you know and I hope that
folks seek understanding youknow in uh that that process,
because you know understandingand knowing, you know the
message that he was trying togive um that can make it better
(48:34):
for all of us and to be able to.
When you think about living inpurpose, um, and, and doing what
god put you on this earth to do, do you feel like you're now
being able to live in thatpurpose, and can you do that
without serving others?
It sounds like you're wantingto talk to kids and maybe
(48:55):
prevent some of the things thatyou had to go through in your
life, but what does that looklike for you as being in purpose
?
Speaker 1 (49:04):
I think it starts with self, though.
Like you have to put yourselfin purpose and you have to.
You have to live in purpose.
Like before you startinstilling in somebody else, you
have to make sure you're livingthe right way.
And because sometimes it don'tbe the message to be the
messenger, and if the message iscoming from a poor messenger,
(49:24):
we're not going to take it likeyou're giving me a message that
you don't even stand on, like,yeah, I'm fine on that, right.
Yeah, and it's funny because,like a lot of these
conversations we're having, likeI've just had conversations
with people in the last coupledays.
I was just talking to my, my guywendell rob, who's the
executive director now and he'sturned 50 in a couple days, and
(49:49):
he was just talking about how,because I came home like four or
five years before them and hewas like how I set the stage for
everything that's happeningaround us.
Because in that place you get alot of guys that go home and be
like man, I got you, I'm gonnacheck on your mother, I'm gonna
check on your grandmother, I'mgonna see you something you
(50:10):
never hear from them again.
Those guys haven't went a dayin there without somebody in
their hearing.
For me, like I was, I go tocourt dates, I support people
and he, like that, showed himwhat he should come home and do
again, like he showed somebodyelse.
And so that's how that networkof friends that are here now
(50:30):
going to work came about.
Because I think I was one ofthe first to come home and
really stand on what I said.
Because I felt like, too, likeme and my brother, we grew up in
the same house, right, but wehad two different lifestyles,
because high school, when I wasstill younger, then he went away
to college, so I had spent moretime around those guys in
(50:53):
prison than I did my realbrother, so I had connected with
them a little bit more than Idid my real brother until I came
home, like that was a two-and-aand a half year age discrepancy
.
So he had his friends, I had myfriends.
You know, our big brothersdon't never want the little
brother with them.
You go over there, right, meand my brother, we love each
(51:17):
other, we're, we're our onlysiblings, like.
So we definitely connect.
But I think, going through that, uh, uh, I connected with a few
other guys that I consider tobe my brothers, right, that's
weird because when wendell camehome, I went, I was down and I
picked them up coming out of thepenitentiary and we were riding
(51:38):
down the expressway one day andI think I got emotional first
and I'm like turn the music down.
I'm like, look at it, bro.
He like what you looking at.
Like bro, we riding down 290right now.
Yeah, we both had natural lifebefore and we was on the gallery
talking about trying to comehome, but now we're in a car, we
(52:03):
ride down the expressway, wejust left from eating and we're
doing what we want to do.
It's so funny because when Icame home, when I was in there,
I used to get impatient.
He always was like man, youjust have to be patient.
I'm like what.
I didn't want to be patientbecause I'm still in the car I
found myself when I got home andhis court dates weren't going
(52:25):
away.
He wanted him to go.
Like you got to be patient.
He'd be like man, you want tobe a patient.
When you was like no, youexpect me to do it?
Yeah, okay, like we had.
We had these eye-openingmoments since we've been home
where it's like we real, we, wereally free, like and we still
have them years later where we'dbe like because he I did for my
(52:47):
50th birthday I did dubai.
He was there and we in dubai,looking like bro, we in dubai
right now because we watchedthese commercials in zealand and
it was like, okay places, Iwant to go, like aruba, uh, to
make all these different placesthat we had never seen because
we had never really left out ofthat box of our so-called
(53:10):
community that we didn't ownanything in.
Right, we never really left ourneighborhoods and now we travel
in the world and we were ableto experience different things
that we never saw coming.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
That's so cool different things that we never
saw coming.
That's so cool.
Thank you so much for justsharing yourself and your
vulnerability, and I think it'sgoing to resonate a lot with our
listeners.
I was kind of selfish in askingthe questions that I wanted to
know, but there might be somethings that you want to share to
(53:42):
the podcast to any of thelisteners who are listening
today that I didn't get to talkabout or I didn't get to share,
uh, to the podcast to any of thelisteners who are listening
today that I didn't get to talkabout or I didn't get to share.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
so I'd love for you to take some time right now just
to share your heart oh, I thinkyour questions were definitely
on point and they were needed,because I'm more of a back and
forth type of talk, right, uh?
But right now, like me and fourof my co-defendants me, daniel
taylor, paul phillips and lewisgardner we have a book out
(54:08):
called the hazel boys, speltwith the z b-o-y-z.
Uh, it's on amazon and barnesnoble, and it's just a breakdown
.
It's a trial of four innocentmen, young men.
Some were boys because of fourinnocent men, young men.
Some were boys because Louiswas 15, daniel and Paul was 17,
and I was 20 at the time whenthis case happened.
(54:30):
And we just want to get thestory out, because now we feel
like we can tell our own story,we have our own voice and we
also feel like we're the voiceof the voices, because I know
for a fact, wrongful convictionsdidn't start with us, nor has
it ended with us.
They're still happening everyday.
There are guys in there thatreally need some help, and I
think some people need tounderstand that the system might
(54:54):
not be totally broken, but it'sbroken though, yeah, and and
it's biased, like, like ittreats people of color
differently than it treatseverybody else, and I think just
knowing, like some of thethings cause a lot of the things
we say and we talk about.
As far as our book we can proveit through police reports.
(55:15):
This isn't just our wordagainst them.
We know where they started tocreate evidence and fabricate
evidence and do certain thingsto solidify their positions
right.
To know where they started tocreate evidence and fabricate
evidence and do certain thingsto solidify their positions
right.
And even in our, in my trialbecause I'm only one winter
trial on the civil, like theywere still mine 20 some years
later, like I think one of thefirst questions my lawyer asked
(55:38):
them was like when the firsttime you heard beyond Patrick's
name, they said when they wentin the room with some pictures
and show them to the 15 year oldkid, louis Gardner.
So my lawyer, like where didyou get a picture of him from If
you had never heard his name?
Oh, no, no, no, no, we didn'thave a picture.
But they did have a picture andthey ordered those pictures.
They had wrote a police reportsaid clear this case after their
(56:01):
days off.
They had wrote a police reportsaid clear this case after their
day is off.
That was November the 29th.
They started arresting usDecember the 2nd.
That day off ended December the2nd.
They ordered those picturesNovember the 29th.
Yet when you ask them, didy'all have any leads or any
suspects on November the 29th?
They would tell you no.
Speaker 2 (56:23):
So why were you ordering pictures of us?
You didn't have any suspects.
On November 29th they wouldtell you no, so why were you
ordering pictures of us?
Ordering more pictures?
Speaker 1 (56:25):
yeah, you didn't have any suspects, but they had
already made up their mind thatthey were giving us that case,
no matter what.
I think it's a good read.
It's enlightening.
It gets the message out thatrestorative justice is needed.
Be some.
There need to be some moretalks around how that looks and
(56:47):
I think more system systemlyimpacted people should be at
that table, just people at thetable who have never been
impacted, because some peoplebelieve in a system
wholeheartedly, some of usbelieve in it partially and some
of us don't believe in it atall.
Right, but there's a middleground where we have to meet at
(57:08):
and start to make sure it isfair and it's unbiased well.
Speaker 2 (57:14):
again, thank you for being on today.
Uh, thank you for, like I said,just just sharing who you are,
the books, the, the hazel boyselBoys, and please go ahead and
check out a copy, read it.
I'm looking forward to you know, if you want to subscribe or
tell people about it or evensend this out so that you can
share with people some of thehope, some of the things that he
(57:37):
shared with us, and not beingangry you know, it would be,
when I think through it, if Ihad 20 years where I wasn't able
to be free, that I might comeout very angry.
But instead he comes out andhe's willing to help others and
move people forward and serveand try to prevent other folks
from doing that.
And so I thank you, dion, forjust being that man and being
(58:00):
that man who's able to gothrough what you went through
and still be able to share withus.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
And so you know, go ahead and like I said hit the
subscribe button.
Speaker 2 (58:09):
Do those things.
Make sure you get greatepisodes for anybody to watch
and look at.
And then, don't forget, Ibelieve, that you are God's
greatest gift and he loves you.
If you allow him to, and if youdo that, your life could be
totally different.
Speaker 1 (58:22):
So you guys have an amazing, awesome, incredible day
.
Speaker 2 (58:35):
We'll talk to you on the next one.
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