August 25, 2025 • 24 mins
Amy Nelson is back! Every time we sit down, I walk away fired up and inspired to do more, be more, and lead with more clarity. This time we dove into women in leadership and how damn hard it can be to walk the line between being “too soft” or “too much.”
We get into:
⚡ Leading with authenticity
⚡ Why being “bossy” is actually a compliment
⚡ Why asking for forgiveness beats waiting for permission
We also cracked open something really close to my heart right now: The B Lab. It’s the engine I’ve been quietly building to help entrepreneurs cut through the noise, get clear on what they really want, and actually start moving. Talking it through with Amy reminded me exactly why I started—because waiting for permission is a waste of your damn time.
Amy, thank you for always bringing your wisdom, your honesty, and your fire to this show. Every conversation with you leaves me better—and I know you'll feel the same.
Got questions for Amy? DM the show on Instagram or email us at info@thekericroftshow.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, there you beautiful badass.
Welcome to the Keri Croft Show.
I'm your host, keri Croft,delivering you stories that get
you pumped up and feeling likethe unstoppable savage that you
are.
So grab your coffee, put onyour game face and let's do this
thing, baby face and let's dothis thing, baby Amy Nelson.
(00:29):
Hello, carrie, it's been aminute Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Thanks for having me To Ask Amyon the Carrie Croft Show.
So I'm all about talking aboutmasculine versus feminine energy
and leadership.
Today, and I don't know if it'sbecause of like a a clip, I saw
Sarah Blakely and she wastalking about Kevin O'Leary and
(00:51):
Kevin O'Leary was like basicallysaying that, um, business is
war and you have to go to batand she, she like came after him
.
This has like been a minute,but something got.
I got served something recentlythat reminded me of it and
there's all kinds.
You know that's a bigconversation today around like
leadership styles and leadingwith empathy and a softer
(01:11):
leadership style, but it alsolends itself to the conversation
around female founders and thedisparity between you know how
much funding we get versus maleand how many there are versus
men?
And you were just telling meyou were just at, was it?
Vidcon, vidcon, vidcon.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, so VidCon is this conference that started
like 20 years ago and it's likethe social media conference it's
a lot of YouTubers, but nowit's expanded to include people
who you know make their livingon Instagram or TikTok or
wherever, and it was superinteresting for a bunch of
different reasons, but one of mybiggest takeaways is that there
are so few women leaders inthis space.
(01:49):
I went to like a before theconference started.
I went to like an industrymasterclass for people in the
social media industry.
It was invite.
Only 90% of the speakers weremale and 90% of the people in
the room were male and it's justlike.
I've been in spaces like that myentire life.
I'm a female founder.
I've raised $30 million inventure capital.
98% of venture capital dollarsgo to men 98%, which is a wild
(02:13):
statistic.
Right Like.
I was a lawyer and even thoughwomen are half of law school
graduates and have been fordecades, they're only 17% of law
firm partners.
Right Like.
It's just like you see it inevery industry and it's like
it's horrifying.
But I think you know one of thethings I think is this
perception and that women dohave softer leadership styles,
(02:38):
and so, like I might say thismight be very controversial, but
the truth is like when KevinO'Leary says business is war,
like in a capitalist society,the point of a business is to
win, the point of war is to win.
And so, like, I agree with himon that front.
Right Like, and I think part ofthe reason women get less
funding or women are put inleadership positions less is the
(02:59):
perception that we have softerstyles and also that the demand
that we do like we are notallowed to be soldiers, we are
not allowed to be generals,because then we're seen as
bitches and assholes.
I mean, Sarah Blakely built ajuggernaut of a company and
she's a badass and she's toughas hell.
Yeah, Right, Like she is and Idon't mean that in a bad way
Like, I respect her for that andI don't think she's a bitch at
(03:21):
all.
You can be a tough as hell andnot be an asshole, Right Like.
I think she's probably both ofthose things.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
But I don't think she's soft.
No, you can't be.
No, you can't be.
But it's like.
I also remember when theRiveter had 150 employees, I
immediately felt this conflictof what I thought my employees
thought I would be and who Iwould be, because I'm this like
pregnant lady, nursing, and whoI am and who I am is someone who
(03:48):
was raised on Wall Street,professionally, in rooms full of
men, as a litigator, as afighter Right, and I think
that's why I've been successful,because I was trained to be in
those rooms.
I believed I should be in thoserooms and I figured out who I
was going to be in those rooms.
And I figured out who I wasgoing to be in those rooms and
it wasn't someone who was soft.
And I do see business,everything.
(04:11):
I see it, as you know, kind oflike a, like a, something to win
.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
So I feel I feel you on that Cause.
I feel my opinion on it when Isaw that I don't totally
disagree with him but I alsounderstand what she's saying.
So I think my opinion liesprobably somewhere in the middle
.
Yeah, kind of like you, uh,because also I too have been in
the throes of corporate Americawith AT&T dog eat dog, like my
(04:38):
God, if you.
You know you have to fight tosurvive in, especially when
you're in sales.
It's like, and you're climbingthe line, it's like a whole
thing.
And then you go and you swingover to being an entrepreneur
and building your own thing.
I feel like part of meovercorrected a bit.
And when you do that, when youand I wasn't soft by any means,
but I think I was overlygenerous- Also you kind of
(05:07):
probably wanted people to likeyou.
I want, I felt that like in thisway because you felt like then
they'll work for you or thenthey'll invest in you or then
they'll hire you, like.
But I genuinely wanted becauseI think it was my sales
background I understand thevalue of someone feeling
ownership in something, yeah,and so I genuinely wanted people
to win and I genuinely I wantedto bring them along.
But I feel like when you do toomuch of that with people, yeah,
they will take oh, and I so.
So I from experience know, yeah, that in my at least, what I
(05:33):
have experienced is that you dohave to write a line like you're
in business for a reason.
We're not all here to like bearound the campfire and be a
family.
And that was always a thing toowhere I said something so
controversial to to the team.
At one point I said you know,we're not a family.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Oh my.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
God, but they, I mean , it was like I had, I was the,
I was like I felt like CruellaDeVille right, and I was like
like families, protect theirweek yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Businesses don't.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
And so, if we are going to protect the week, none
of us are going to have arevenue stream in a year to even
have this conversation.
And so there is this balancewhere I think leadership, if you
lead from a place of wantingthe greater good for everyone,
you truly value and want peopleto come along on the ride.
(06:21):
Come along on the ride andyou're very transparent and you,
you show the vision, yeah Right, but then you have to hold
people and yourself to the samesort of level of accountability
expectation.
That's where shit goes awry,you know, because you're like,
yeah, those are hardconversations.
Like, if you're expectingbusiness to be this, like
(06:42):
Kumbaya, like we all kind of, Ijust don't believe that's what
is going to happen it's not.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
And there's like two, two things that made me think
of right like you, you can be akiller in business, in politics,
whatever, and still have aleadership style that is humane
and maybe somewhat softer.
Right like, look Like.
Look at Winston Churchill,right, who, like, saved the
world in many ways.
Right, like Britain took thebrunt of, you know, the European
(07:10):
fight in World War II until wegot in it.
And if you look at WinstonChurchill like he wasn't, like
you weren't scared of him.
He inspired a nation, he toldyou.
Like you have to do this.
We can only be okay together.
Right, like he was, he had aleadership style that wasn't
like Jeff Bezos, right, but likehe won.
They're looking like AbrahamLincoln.
I don't think anyone wouldthink of him as like a rabid dog
(07:31):
killer you know what I mean butlike he if he won.
And I, and I think like I Lookat like Patagonia, david Gellis,
a New York Times journalist,just came out with a book called
Dirtbag Billionaire about thefounder of Patagonia.
And like winning for Patagoniais different than winning for
Walmart and right, and so hebuilt this great company on
values that make sense, and buthe's still one.
(07:52):
I think part of it is likedefine what winning is, and in a
for profit business, part ofwinning has to be making money
Right.
Like A for-profit business,part of winning has to be making
money right, like if you're anonprofit, it's different.
It has to be making money andto make money you need to have
the right people in the rightpositions doing the right things
.
But beyond that, like, you canmake different decisions.
You can make differentdecisions about winning if
you're a public company and aprivate company.
You know it's like, but I dothink there is this really,
(08:15):
really hard thing that womenleaders have to deal with, that
you are expected to be softerand gentler and if you're not,
like it's going to be achallenge for you.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
It's like you're damned if you do and damned if
you don't, because you'reexpected to be this soft sort of
empathetic, all you know allthese ooey gooey things.
And then if you are, if youlean into all those things, then
you would have a propensity tobe walked on.
If you naturally flow towardmaybe a more alpha style, but
(08:48):
that's just who you are, but youstill have empathy, you still
have.
Then you're this brazen, bossybitch that has you know.
So it's like how does that work?
You know, like it doesn'thappen for men.
No, it doesn't.
It just blows my mind, I mean.
But I want to ask the questionlike, why does that continue in
(09:09):
the world today?
Why is the double standard justlike rolling?
It's still just there, so it'sjust so like right in front of
your face all the time.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Part of it, I think, is we have created in our
country, and probably in a lotof countries, this idea of
scarcity for women, like there'sonly room for one woman at the
top or something, and whichisn't true, but like we believe
it and we live it, and so Ithink we're a lot harder on
women than we are on men,because we think with men
(09:41):
there's like there's room for 99of them at the top.
So of course they'll haveissues, of course x, y or z, but
for women, you know, it's likeand we women we do it to
ourselves like we perpetuatethis internalized belief of how
women should act and then wepunish them when they don't act
that way.
Right, like I've watched somany female founders be fired
from their companies for thingsmen have done a thousand times
(10:03):
and I'm not saying that thingswere right but like men are
allowed to do them, why aren'twomen and women were responsible
for the firing as well as men.
I don't know.
Like, do we need, like ahandmaid's tale uprising?
I mean, I don't know.
I don't know how you changethat, other than you know.
What I'm trying to do with myfour daughters is to teach them
the things I think boys aretaught.
(10:24):
I am constantly encouragingthem to fail, fail, fail again.
Like you're not trying hardenough if you don't fail right.
Like nothing happens if you'renot failing.
Or you know, like someonecalled my oldest bossy and I
said good.
I said good.
I said good, own it.
Like nobody calls a boy bossyright.
She says, no, I'm like, thereyou go.
They're telling you thatbecause you're a girl, keep
(10:46):
doing whatever you're doing,keep doing it Like.
I just am leaning into thosethings and like, sure, I will
probably like raise thedaughters that are considered to
be the brazen bitches, but I'drather have them be that than be
a wallflower.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Oh, without a doubt, yeah, and I think too a
wallflower.
Oh, without a doubt, and Ithink too, um, for women who are
struggling with, like howyou're supposed to be.
Like I look back on when I tookover my first team at AT&T and
I became like the sales directorand I was in, you know, I had
my whole team, was maybe twowomen and like all men, yeah.
(11:21):
But even before that, when I wasa peer, a salesperson, I never
walked into a room in businessand thought to myself like, oh,
let me put this mask on or letme let me how.
How should I be?
I always just was who I am, andso I think, no matter what,
that's going to always win.
(11:41):
If you're someone who, everytime you're walking into a
conference room or you'rewalking on stage to talk or
you're, you know, having ameeting and you feel like you
have to be really careful,you're like almost putting on
this like veneer or something,that's where I feel like things
go sideways.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
You have to just be who you are, because you can't
fake being a character for years.
It's going to come out who youare.
However, you are right and Ithink you like you're much more
likely to succeed maybe not theway you want to, but you're much
more likely to succeed if youjust are who you are.
I also think, and like this isan optimistic take on things,
(12:19):
but, like I personally am notinterested in leading another
company of 150 people, largelybecause of these.
These like you can do that andthat wasn't possible 10 years
(12:42):
ago and that's cool yeah right.
So it's an unlock for women,like, if you can't get the pay
you deserve, go build your ownthing if you like.
Are you know if you're facinglike a glass ceiling?
Like, just go build your ownhouse yeah and like and we can
do that now and we couldn't dothat 10 years ago.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
So we're really lucky , lucky to be able to do that.
No, and I'm like so pumped thatmy whole entire business model
is going to be around helpingpeople do that.
I can't wait for it.
So crazy, but it's so weird.
It took me almost two years tobirth it.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I don't think that's weird.
It's like you were ideating fora long time and I think you
were also at a point whereyou're like I'm not going to do
it if it doesn't feel right.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, but now that I'm, now that the baby's been
born, yeah, so crazy.
I'm like wait, of course youknow it all.
It all makes so much senselooking backward, but I'll tell
you what the torture chamberthat has been this brain for
like a year and a half is wild.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I get it.
I get it, but I'm so excitedthat you found the thing and
that you're doing it, becausethat's the other thing.
I think that, like you know, alot of you are not this, but a
lot of people, and I think Iused to be this way, like I felt
like I was like waiting forpermission to make the pivot or
start the thing, or that, like Ididn't have the expertise so I
couldn't do it, or someone hadalready done it, or someone had
done it better.
You can still fucking do it,yeah Right, like, yeah it's.
(14:02):
You know, like Uber existedwhen Lyft was born.
They're both multi-billiondollar businesses.
Good job, yeah Right, there'sroom.
There's always room.
I totally agree, and so, likeyou know, you are probably the
person in the world I would sayleast will wait for permission.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Oh no, I will always ask for forgiveness later.
Yeah, ask for forgiveness later.
Ask for forgiveness later.
It's always and you know it'sfunny my speaking of AT&T one of
my mentors, carol Vanette, whowas just so great to me there.
That was something she alwayssaid.
She was like never ask forpermission.
You ask for forgiveness later.
And that like that was like.
I mean, I stood at attention onthat.
I'm like I like the way thatsounds.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
It's really good, I mean the other thing is like I
mean, very few people are goingto stand in your way to try to
stop you right.
Like you will be so successfulin life if you just do the thing
, if you just begin, even if youfail, like most people don't
even try.
The way I've been thinkingabout it lately is like the main
character energy.
I love that phrase becausesomehow we've reached this point
(14:57):
in American history where somany people are embracing this
idea that, like they're, theycan sit on the sidelines and
watch the show happen.
Like you're the main characterof your own life, you there is
no other main character.
And like if you don't putyourself in that position,
what's the point?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
But so many people hold themselves back and it's
just very it's.
It's tragic to me.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Like society teaches them to, and that's one of the
most dangerous things right,it's like you're taught you go
to school, you're taught to waityour turn and raise your hand
right.
You're not taught to begin andask for forgiveness later.
're taught to wait your turnright, stand in line.
It will give you a role.
And then you're taught to youknow.
This is, I think, now like theone thing I want to teach my
kids is don't go work forsomeone else.
Like then we're taught to go tocollege and then go work for
(15:47):
somebody else to help theirdreams come true, to help them
make more money.
So maybe you can retire whenyou're in your six, like late
60s or something.
Yeah, it's just like we'reteaching people to sit on the
sidelines.
Why and that's not who we were200 years ago no, and it's weird
to me that we've become thatand I don't like it?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
No, me neither.
That's why I'm so like everysingle person that has been
taking like.
Well, I do the 15-minute call.
That's usually how I engagesomeone, but there have been
certain people that I've met whoare now clients and they're
becoming like the firstprototype for this engine that
we're building, which is reallycool.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
So cool it is.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
And, um, to say that if, like, I can't even put into
words what it's done for me,just this small group of people
watching them.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Kate, this small group of people watching them
yeah, kate's been witness tothis too.
Some of them need a little moremindset than others, but some
of them are on the precipicelike of this really fucking
great thing, and to help themalong, that's their way.
It's like I couldn't.
There's nothing in this worldthat would give me more joy.
I love it from a businessperspective, I love it From a
(16:57):
business perspective.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
It's so great, it's amazing.
I hope I just I want morepeople, whether they're it's
like you know, I can only do somany with the B lab.
There's millions of ways thatyou can do it out there.
I just, even with justconversations like this, if
there's one little nugget thatsomeone's like you know what,
yeah, me too.
I deserve this too.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And I think, too, like with the V Lab and the
engine you're creating and Ithink this is something that I
think we should all embraceright Like we can test our
businesses, what we're good atand how we help people in more
one-on-one or like curated, moreexpensive ways, and then from
there we can build it at scale.
I know you like you'll takethis and build it at scale so it
can help thousands of people,and so, and like I think we
(17:38):
should give ourselves permissionto do that that way.
Right, you're like my goal isto help 100000 people, yeah, but
I'm going to start by helpingfive, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And my my initial goal here.
What I'm the phase we're inright now, what I'm really
excited about is sort of theapproach that we're taking about
is sort of the approach thatwe're taking.
So the inputs we're asking forfrom people are completely
they're not different, but it'sso much more 360 than a typical
business engagement.
So, for example, I want to knowyour birthday because I want to
(18:08):
know your sign.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I want your Enneagram .
I want to have an entire inputon your mindset and where you're
at personally.
And then I want a comprehensivedata collect around your
current state of your businessand then what an ideal future
state looks like.
So when you take something like, it gives me a good look at
these goosebumps, that's amazing.
(18:30):
And then you funnel it throughmy authentic view of the world
and my authentic experience inbusiness and you're able to have
these manual stopping points.
So my goal isn't to be like, ok, here's a bunch of data, let's
let AI shoot out something.
My goal is to really hear andsee exactly where you exist
(18:51):
right now from a personalperspective and a business
perspective, because thosethings can't exist separately.
Right, if you're a fuckingdumpster fire personally, the
odds of that transcending intoyour business are pretty
significant right so tounderstand and get a very
interest like a very cool scopeof who this person is.
(19:15):
And then we have manual stoppingpoints where it's like I will
work with open ai 4.0 orwhatever the fucking version is.
We will finesse and figure outlike, okay, this is the path,
like this is what we need to doand that that will.
We will be able to scale.
That's so cool.
Right now, where I'm reallygeeking out is with these
(19:35):
individuals who are so up closeto me but like they're like case
studies for the bigger good.
So, like to have an engine.
Then you come through.
Right, the Amy Nelsonextraordinaire comes through.
We work with you.
Next thing, you know you're offand running, but we have the
data.
Yeah, we have your experiencenow in the library.
(19:57):
You know to like, help, scopeout.
Oh wait, there's someone who'svery similar situation to what
you went through.
It's just a whole thing thatlike the, it just all clicked
like in all sort of like it's,it's wild and I cannot wait to
like and like scaling it.
Yeah, that sounds reallyexciting and like I am excited
to get to that point.
But like right now, these humanbeings who I'm seeing, like get
(20:23):
it.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, like fuck, yes, that's amazing.
I mean, that's huge, right,like these are the things, and
like it's interesting, becauseit's being stuck without all of
this analysis, without all thisdata, is what stops us from
taking the first step or thestep that changes everything
Right.
And also, you know, a lot ofpeople in this position are
working alone and they don'thave anyone to bounce ideas off
of, they don't have any creativepartners, and so this is a huge
(20:46):
asset.
On that front, too, I want todo it.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
You like the name the Bee Lab.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I do like the name, the Bee Lab.
I love it.
It's really, really funny.
I wanted to call the riveterschool the riveter lab.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
You did, I did I'm glad you like it.
Um the b, I just felt like,well, lab came first because you
know, again it's good, there'sbeen so many iterations.
I started with goal getter,yeah, but goal getter was more
like mindset, like that was.
It was not it right.
And then I was like, okay, thetotal badass workshop, and that
was just like this, like regularconsultant.
(21:16):
Then all of.
And then I was like, ok, thetotal badass workshop, and that
was just like this, like regularconsult.
Then all of a sudden I was likeyou know what I'm going to do.
I'm going to stop worryingabout that.
I'm going to stop worryingabout the name and the brand
because I'm a big like logobranding
girl, right, and I was like,let's just forget about that for
now.
You're getting these peoplethrough the door.
There's demand here like theywant to work with you, so let's
just focus on that and overdelivering.
(21:38):
Well then, as soon as I didthat, I was driving one day and
I was like what is it that makesthis special?
And I started naming it in myhead.
I'm like, well, first of all,I'm, you know, the one client
I've got, she.
I'm putting her on the mic andlike we had them bring, like we
had her bring a.
Uh, she brought this likevision board in and like it's
just been this like pop off thepage.
Experience, right, anexperiment, if you will, a
(21:59):
pushing of someone like it's.
And I'm like, wait, it's a lab.
I'm like what it's?
We're totally in a lab here.
And then I was walking the sameday in the park and like, out
of nowhere, I was like, wait,it's the B lab.
I'm like of nowhere.
(22:21):
I was like, wait, it's the Blab.
I'm like build brand badass,believe B body, brain and like I
mean, I named probably 25 wordsand it was all B and I was like
fucking B lab.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I think it's awesome, I think it's great, you do, I
do, I think it's great.
I would tell you if I didn'tthink yeah, I kind of really
love it.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
I just want to, you know, I wouldn't ask everyone
that, but I would definitely askyou.
And then um so there's then, sofar, we have six different
entrepreneurial journeys.
So when we do the inputs rightnow, it's like there's six
separate input paths and theyall start with B.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
So I feel like they kind of had to, but it ended up
making sense.
There's one that's likebeginning, so it's the person
who just is on the starting.
They, they, they're like I'mlooking out, I've got a thing I
have nowhere, I don't know whatthe fuck to do.
There's all these things to do,right, there's someone who's
blocked, who's even a step awayfrom that.
They need some mindset help.
(23:12):
They need some either likeinternal, external auditing of,
like their self, their innercircle, which I happen to have
spent how much time buildingwhen I was kind of thinking of
the other thing.
So I've got all that I mean, andSOS, like that's already pretty
much baked.
Then there's there's one womanthat's coming next week and
she's in the build out phase.
So she has a successful modelhere and she wants to scale it,
(23:34):
Love it.
So that's exciting, that'sawesome.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
That's great model here and she wants to scale it,
love it.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So that's exciting, that's awesome, that's great.
There's another girl who is um,it's called bottleneck, so she
started something and she'sselling it.
Something's not working,something's not right, and so we
kind of diagnose, like what areall the things happening?
What's?
Like so you take a really widescope and then you kind of
figure out okay, based on theperson, maybe it's very obvious,
(24:00):
or maybe there's a couple ofsignals where it's like, okay,
if you maybe you know, starttweaking these three things, we
can like move through the bottleI think that's awesome.
So there's six differententrepreneurial stages.
Let's call it that we areseparating out and creating
separate inputs for because theykind of have different
situations.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I'm in a bottleneck, you're in a bottleneck.
Oh yeah, with the riveter, yes.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
All right, Amy, thank you so much as usual.
You are just so enlightening, Icould talk to you forever.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I learn so much from you every time and love hanging
out.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I feel the same way and if you're still out there
following your girl, follow meon YouTube, spotify, apple or
wherever you get your podcasts.
Until next time, keep moving.
I love you.
Hey, there you beautiful badass.
Welcome to the Keri Croft Show.
I'm your host, keri Croft,delivering you stories that get
you pumped up and feeling likethe unstoppable savage that you
are.
So grab your coffee, put onyour game face and let's do this
thing, baby face and let's dothis thing, baby Amy Nelson.
(00:29):
Hello, carrie, it's been aminute Welcome back.
Welcome back.
Thanks for having me To Ask Amyon the Carrie Croft Show.
So I'm all about talking aboutmasculine versus feminine energy
and leadership.
Today, and I don't know if it'sbecause of like a a clip, I saw
Sarah Blakely and she wastalking about Kevin O'Leary and
(00:51):
Kevin O'Leary was like basicallysaying that, um, business is
war and you have to go to batand she, she like came after him
.
This has like been a minute,but something got.
I got served something recentlythat reminded me of it and
there's all kinds.
You know that's a bigconversation today around like
leadership styles and leadingwith empathy and a softer
(01:11):
leadership style, but it alsolends itself to the conversation
around female founders and thedisparity between you know how
much funding we get versus maleand how many there are versus
men?
And you were just telling meyou were just at, was it?
Vidcon, vidcon, vidcon.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, so VidCon is this conference that started
like 20 years ago and it's likethe social media conference it's
a lot of YouTubers, but nowit's expanded to include people
who you know make their livingon Instagram or TikTok or
wherever, and it was superinteresting for a bunch of
different reasons, but one of mybiggest takeaways is that there
are so few women leaders inthis space.
(01:49):
I went to like a before theconference started.
I went to like an industrymasterclass for people in the
social media industry.
It was invite.
Only 90% of the speakers weremale and 90% of the people in
the room were male and it's justlike.
I've been in spaces like that myentire life.
I'm a female founder.
I've raised $30 million inventure capital.
98% of venture capital dollarsgo to men 98%, which is a wild
(02:13):
statistic.
Right Like.
I was a lawyer and even thoughwomen are half of law school
graduates and have been fordecades, they're only 17% of law
firm partners.
Right Like.
It's just like you see it inevery industry and it's like
it's horrifying.
But I think you know one of thethings I think is this
perception and that women dohave softer leadership styles,
(02:38):
and so, like I might say thismight be very controversial, but
the truth is like when KevinO'Leary says business is war,
like in a capitalist society,the point of a business is to
win, the point of war is to win.
And so, like, I agree with himon that front.
Right Like, and I think part ofthe reason women get less
funding or women are put inleadership positions less is the
(02:59):
perception that we have softerstyles and also that the demand
that we do like we are notallowed to be soldiers, we are
not allowed to be generals,because then we're seen as
bitches and assholes.
I mean, Sarah Blakely built ajuggernaut of a company and
she's a badass and she's toughas hell.
Yeah, Right, Like she is and Idon't mean that in a bad way
Like, I respect her for that andI don't think she's a bitch at
(03:21):
all.
You can be a tough as hell andnot be an asshole, Right Like.
I think she's probably both ofthose things.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
But I don't think she's soft.
No, you can't be.
No, you can't be.
But it's like.
I also remember when theRiveter had 150 employees, I
immediately felt this conflictof what I thought my employees
thought I would be and who Iwould be, because I'm this like
pregnant lady, nursing, and whoI am and who I am is someone who
(03:48):
was raised on Wall Street,professionally, in rooms full of
men, as a litigator, as afighter Right, and I think
that's why I've been successful,because I was trained to be in
those rooms.
I believed I should be in thoserooms and I figured out who I
was going to be in those rooms.
And I figured out who I wasgoing to be in those rooms and
it wasn't someone who was soft.
And I do see business,everything.
(04:11):
I see it, as you know, kind oflike a, like a, something to win
.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
So I feel I feel you on that Cause.
I feel my opinion on it when Isaw that I don't totally
disagree with him but I alsounderstand what she's saying.
So I think my opinion liesprobably somewhere in the middle
.
Yeah, kind of like you, uh,because also I too have been in
the throes of corporate Americawith AT&T dog eat dog, like my
(04:38):
God, if you.
You know you have to fight tosurvive in, especially when
you're in sales.
It's like, and you're climbingthe line, it's like a whole
thing.
And then you go and you swingover to being an entrepreneur
and building your own thing.
I feel like part of meovercorrected a bit.
And when you do that, when youand I wasn't soft by any means,
but I think I was overlygenerous- Also you kind of
(05:07):
probably wanted people to likeyou.
I want, I felt that like in thisway because you felt like then
they'll work for you or thenthey'll invest in you or then
they'll hire you, like.
But I genuinely wanted becauseI think it was my sales
background I understand thevalue of someone feeling
ownership in something, yeah,and so I genuinely wanted people
to win and I genuinely I wantedto bring them along.
But I feel like when you do toomuch of that with people, yeah,
they will take oh, and I so.
So I from experience know, yeah, that in my at least, what I
(05:33):
have experienced is that you dohave to write a line like you're
in business for a reason.
We're not all here to like bearound the campfire and be a
family.
And that was always a thing toowhere I said something so
controversial to to the team.
At one point I said you know,we're not a family.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Oh my.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
God, but they, I mean , it was like I had, I was the,
I was like I felt like CruellaDeVille right, and I was like
like families, protect theirweek yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Businesses don't.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
And so, if we are going to protect the week, none
of us are going to have arevenue stream in a year to even
have this conversation.
And so there is this balancewhere I think leadership, if you
lead from a place of wantingthe greater good for everyone,
you truly value and want peopleto come along on the ride.
(06:21):
Come along on the ride andyou're very transparent and you,
you show the vision, yeah Right, but then you have to hold
people and yourself to the samesort of level of accountability
expectation.
That's where shit goes awry,you know, because you're like,
yeah, those are hardconversations.
Like, if you're expectingbusiness to be this, like
(06:42):
Kumbaya, like we all kind of, Ijust don't believe that's what
is going to happen it's not.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
And there's like two, two things that made me think
of right like you, you can be akiller in business, in politics,
whatever, and still have aleadership style that is humane
and maybe somewhat softer.
Right like, look Like.
Look at Winston Churchill,right, who, like, saved the
world in many ways.
Right, like Britain took thebrunt of, you know, the European
(07:10):
fight in World War II until wegot in it.
And if you look at WinstonChurchill like he wasn't, like
you weren't scared of him.
He inspired a nation, he toldyou.
Like you have to do this.
We can only be okay together.
Right, like he was, he had aleadership style that wasn't
like Jeff Bezos, right, but likehe won.
They're looking like AbrahamLincoln.
I don't think anyone wouldthink of him as like a rabid dog
(07:31):
killer you know what I mean butlike he if he won.
And I, and I think like I Lookat like Patagonia, david Gellis,
a New York Times journalist,just came out with a book called
Dirtbag Billionaire about thefounder of Patagonia.
And like winning for Patagoniais different than winning for
Walmart and right, and so hebuilt this great company on
values that make sense, and buthe's still one.
(07:52):
I think part of it is likedefine what winning is, and in a
for profit business, part ofwinning has to be making money
Right.
Like A for-profit business,part of winning has to be making
money right, like if you're anonprofit, it's different.
It has to be making money andto make money you need to have
the right people in the rightpositions doing the right things
.
But beyond that, like, you canmake different decisions.
You can make differentdecisions about winning if
you're a public company and aprivate company.
You know it's like, but I dothink there is this really,
(08:15):
really hard thing that womenleaders have to deal with, that
you are expected to be softerand gentler and if you're not,
like it's going to be achallenge for you.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
It's like you're damned if you do and damned if
you don't, because you'reexpected to be this soft sort of
empathetic, all you know allthese ooey gooey things.
And then if you are, if youlean into all those things, then
you would have a propensity tobe walked on.
If you naturally flow towardmaybe a more alpha style, but
(08:48):
that's just who you are, but youstill have empathy, you still
have.
Then you're this brazen, bossybitch that has you know.
So it's like how does that work?
You know, like it doesn'thappen for men.
No, it doesn't.
It just blows my mind, I mean.
But I want to ask the questionlike, why does that continue in
(09:09):
the world today?
Why is the double standard justlike rolling?
It's still just there, so it'sjust so like right in front of
your face all the time.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Part of it, I think, is we have created in our
country, and probably in a lotof countries, this idea of
scarcity for women, like there'sonly room for one woman at the
top or something, and whichisn't true, but like we believe
it and we live it, and so Ithink we're a lot harder on
women than we are on men,because we think with men
(09:41):
there's like there's room for 99of them at the top.
So of course they'll haveissues, of course x, y or z, but
for women, you know, it's likeand we women we do it to
ourselves like we perpetuatethis internalized belief of how
women should act and then wepunish them when they don't act
that way.
Right, like I've watched somany female founders be fired
from their companies for thingsmen have done a thousand times
(10:03):
and I'm not saying that thingswere right but like men are
allowed to do them, why aren'twomen and women were responsible
for the firing as well as men.
I don't know.
Like, do we need, like ahandmaid's tale uprising?
I mean, I don't know.
I don't know how you changethat, other than you know.
What I'm trying to do with myfour daughters is to teach them
the things I think boys aretaught.
(10:24):
I am constantly encouragingthem to fail, fail, fail again.
Like you're not trying hardenough if you don't fail right.
Like nothing happens if you'renot failing.
Or you know, like someonecalled my oldest bossy and I
said good.
I said good.
I said good, own it.
Like nobody calls a boy bossyright.
She says, no, I'm like, thereyou go.
They're telling you thatbecause you're a girl, keep
(10:46):
doing whatever you're doing,keep doing it Like.
I just am leaning into thosethings and like, sure, I will
probably like raise thedaughters that are considered to
be the brazen bitches, but I'drather have them be that than be
a wallflower.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Oh, without a doubt, yeah, and I think too a
wallflower.
Oh, without a doubt, and Ithink too, um, for women who are
struggling with, like howyou're supposed to be.
Like I look back on when I tookover my first team at AT&T and
I became like the sales directorand I was in, you know, I had
my whole team, was maybe twowomen and like all men, yeah.
(11:21):
But even before that, when I wasa peer, a salesperson, I never
walked into a room in businessand thought to myself like, oh,
let me put this mask on or letme let me how.
How should I be?
I always just was who I am, andso I think, no matter what,
that's going to always win.
(11:41):
If you're someone who, everytime you're walking into a
conference room or you'rewalking on stage to talk or
you're, you know, having ameeting and you feel like you
have to be really careful,you're like almost putting on
this like veneer or something,that's where I feel like things
go sideways.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
You have to just be who you are, because you can't
fake being a character for years.
It's going to come out who youare.
However, you are right and Ithink you like you're much more
likely to succeed maybe not theway you want to, but you're much
more likely to succeed if youjust are who you are.
I also think, and like this isan optimistic take on things,
(12:19):
but, like I personally am notinterested in leading another
company of 150 people, largelybecause of these.
These like you can do that andthat wasn't possible 10 years
(12:42):
ago and that's cool yeah right.
So it's an unlock for women,like, if you can't get the pay
you deserve, go build your ownthing if you like.
Are you know if you're facinglike a glass ceiling?
Like, just go build your ownhouse yeah and like and we can
do that now and we couldn't dothat 10 years ago.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
So we're really lucky , lucky to be able to do that.
No, and I'm like so pumped thatmy whole entire business model
is going to be around helpingpeople do that.
I can't wait for it.
So crazy, but it's so weird.
It took me almost two years tobirth it.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I don't think that's weird.
It's like you were ideating fora long time and I think you
were also at a point whereyou're like I'm not going to do
it if it doesn't feel right.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, but now that I'm, now that the baby's been
born, yeah, so crazy.
I'm like wait, of course youknow it all.
It all makes so much senselooking backward, but I'll tell
you what the torture chamberthat has been this brain for
like a year and a half is wild.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I get it.
I get it, but I'm so excitedthat you found the thing and
that you're doing it, becausethat's the other thing.
I think that, like you know, alot of you are not this, but a
lot of people, and I think Iused to be this way, like I felt
like I was like waiting forpermission to make the pivot or
start the thing, or that, like Ididn't have the expertise so I
couldn't do it, or someone hadalready done it, or someone had
done it better.
You can still fucking do it,yeah Right, like, yeah it's.
(14:02):
You know, like Uber existedwhen Lyft was born.
They're both multi-billiondollar businesses.
Good job, yeah Right, there'sroom.
There's always room.
I totally agree, and so, likeyou know, you are probably the
person in the world I would sayleast will wait for permission.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Oh no, I will always ask for forgiveness later.
Yeah, ask for forgiveness later.
Ask for forgiveness later.
It's always and you know it'sfunny my speaking of AT&T one of
my mentors, carol Vanette, whowas just so great to me there.
That was something she alwayssaid.
She was like never ask forpermission.
You ask for forgiveness later.
And that like that was like.
I mean, I stood at attention onthat.
I'm like I like the way thatsounds.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
It's really good, I mean the other thing is like I
mean, very few people are goingto stand in your way to try to
stop you right.
Like you will be so successfulin life if you just do the thing
, if you just begin, even if youfail, like most people don't
even try.
The way I've been thinkingabout it lately is like the main
character energy.
I love that phrase becausesomehow we've reached this point
(14:57):
in American history where somany people are embracing this
idea that, like they're, theycan sit on the sidelines and
watch the show happen.
Like you're the main characterof your own life, you there is
no other main character.
And like if you don't putyourself in that position,
what's the point?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
But so many people hold themselves back and it's
just very it's.
It's tragic to me.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Like society teaches them to, and that's one of the
most dangerous things right,it's like you're taught you go
to school, you're taught to waityour turn and raise your hand
right.
You're not taught to begin andask for forgiveness later.
're taught to wait your turnright, stand in line.
It will give you a role.
And then you're taught to youknow.
This is, I think, now like theone thing I want to teach my
kids is don't go work forsomeone else.
Like then we're taught to go tocollege and then go work for
(15:47):
somebody else to help theirdreams come true, to help them
make more money.
So maybe you can retire whenyou're in your six, like late
60s or something.
Yeah, it's just like we'reteaching people to sit on the
sidelines.
Why and that's not who we were200 years ago no, and it's weird
to me that we've become thatand I don't like it?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
No, me neither.
That's why I'm so like everysingle person that has been
taking like.
Well, I do the 15-minute call.
That's usually how I engagesomeone, but there have been
certain people that I've met whoare now clients and they're
becoming like the firstprototype for this engine that
we're building, which is reallycool.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
So cool it is.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
And, um, to say that if, like, I can't even put into
words what it's done for me,just this small group of people
watching them.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Kate, this small group of people watching them
yeah, kate's been witness tothis too.
Some of them need a little moremindset than others, but some
of them are on the precipicelike of this really fucking
great thing, and to help themalong, that's their way.
It's like I couldn't.
There's nothing in this worldthat would give me more joy.
I love it from a businessperspective, I love it From a
(16:57):
business perspective.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
It's so great, it's amazing.
I hope I just I want morepeople, whether they're it's
like you know, I can only do somany with the B lab.
There's millions of ways thatyou can do it out there.
I just, even with justconversations like this, if
there's one little nugget thatsomeone's like you know what,
yeah, me too.
I deserve this too.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And I think, too, like with the V Lab and the
engine you're creating and Ithink this is something that I
think we should all embraceright Like we can test our
businesses, what we're good atand how we help people in more
one-on-one or like curated, moreexpensive ways, and then from
there we can build it at scale.
I know you like you'll takethis and build it at scale so it
can help thousands of people,and so, and like I think we
(17:38):
should give ourselves permissionto do that that way.
Right, you're like my goal isto help 100000 people, yeah, but
I'm going to start by helpingfive, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And my my initial goal here.
What I'm the phase we're inright now, what I'm really
excited about is sort of theapproach that we're taking about
is sort of the approach thatwe're taking.
So the inputs we're asking forfrom people are completely
they're not different, but it'sso much more 360 than a typical
business engagement.
So, for example, I want to knowyour birthday because I want to
(18:08):
know your sign.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I want your Enneagram .
I want to have an entire inputon your mindset and where you're
at personally.
And then I want a comprehensivedata collect around your
current state of your businessand then what an ideal future
state looks like.
So when you take something like, it gives me a good look at
these goosebumps, that's amazing.
(18:30):
And then you funnel it throughmy authentic view of the world
and my authentic experience inbusiness and you're able to have
these manual stopping points.
So my goal isn't to be like, ok, here's a bunch of data, let's
let AI shoot out something.
My goal is to really hear andsee exactly where you exist
(18:51):
right now from a personalperspective and a business
perspective, because thosethings can't exist separately.
Right, if you're a fuckingdumpster fire personally, the
odds of that transcending intoyour business are pretty
significant right so tounderstand and get a very
interest like a very cool scopeof who this person is.
(19:15):
And then we have manual stoppingpoints where it's like I will
work with open ai 4.0 orwhatever the fucking version is.
We will finesse and figure outlike, okay, this is the path,
like this is what we need to doand that that will.
We will be able to scale.
That's so cool.
Right now, where I'm reallygeeking out is with these
(19:35):
individuals who are so up closeto me but like they're like case
studies for the bigger good.
So, like to have an engine.
Then you come through.
Right, the Amy Nelsonextraordinaire comes through.
We work with you.
Next thing, you know you're offand running, but we have the
data.
Yeah, we have your experiencenow in the library.
(19:57):
You know to like, help, scopeout.
Oh wait, there's someone who'svery similar situation to what
you went through.
It's just a whole thing thatlike the, it just all clicked
like in all sort of like it's,it's wild and I cannot wait to
like and like scaling it.
Yeah, that sounds reallyexciting and like I am excited
to get to that point.
But like right now, these humanbeings who I'm seeing, like get
(20:23):
it.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, like fuck, yes, that's amazing.
I mean, that's huge, right,like these are the things, and
like it's interesting, becauseit's being stuck without all of
this analysis, without all thisdata, is what stops us from
taking the first step or thestep that changes everything
Right.
And also, you know, a lot ofpeople in this position are
working alone and they don'thave anyone to bounce ideas off
of, they don't have any creativepartners, and so this is a huge
(20:46):
asset.
On that front, too, I want todo it.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
You like the name the Bee Lab.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I do like the name, the Bee Lab.
I love it.
It's really, really funny.
I wanted to call the riveterschool the riveter lab.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
You did, I did I'm glad you like it.
Um the b, I just felt like,well, lab came first because you
know, again it's good, there'sbeen so many iterations.
I started with goal getter,yeah, but goal getter was more
like mindset, like that was.
It was not it right.
And then I was like, okay, thetotal badass workshop, and that
was just like this, like regularconsultant.
(21:16):
Then all of.
And then I was like, ok, thetotal badass workshop, and that
was just like this, like regularconsult.
Then all of a sudden I was likeyou know what I'm going to do.
I'm going to stop worryingabout that.
I'm going to stop worryingabout the name and the brand
because I'm a big like logobranding
girl, right, and I was like,let's just forget about that for
now.
You're getting these peoplethrough the door.
There's demand here like theywant to work with you, so let's
just focus on that and overdelivering.
(21:38):
Well then, as soon as I didthat, I was driving one day and
I was like what is it that makesthis special?
And I started naming it in myhead.
I'm like, well, first of all,I'm, you know, the one client
I've got, she.
I'm putting her on the mic andlike we had them bring, like we
had her bring a.
Uh, she brought this likevision board in and like it's
just been this like pop off thepage.
Experience, right, anexperiment, if you will, a
(21:59):
pushing of someone like it's.
And I'm like, wait, it's a lab.
I'm like what it's?
We're totally in a lab here.
And then I was walking the sameday in the park and like, out
of nowhere, I was like, wait,it's the B lab.
I'm like of nowhere.
(22:21):
I was like, wait, it's the Blab.
I'm like build brand badass,believe B body, brain and like I
mean, I named probably 25 wordsand it was all B and I was like
fucking B lab.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I think it's awesome, I think it's great, you do, I
do, I think it's great.
I would tell you if I didn'tthink yeah, I kind of really
love it.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
I just want to, you know, I wouldn't ask everyone
that, but I would definitely askyou.
And then um so there's then, sofar, we have six different
entrepreneurial journeys.
So when we do the inputs rightnow, it's like there's six
separate input paths and theyall start with B.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
So I feel like they kind of had to, but it ended up
making sense.
There's one that's likebeginning, so it's the person
who just is on the starting.
They, they, they're like I'mlooking out, I've got a thing I
have nowhere, I don't know whatthe fuck to do.
There's all these things to do,right, there's someone who's
blocked, who's even a step awayfrom that.
They need some mindset help.
(23:12):
They need some either likeinternal, external auditing of,
like their self, their innercircle, which I happen to have
spent how much time buildingwhen I was kind of thinking of
the other thing.
So I've got all that I mean, andSOS, like that's already pretty
much baked.
Then there's there's one womanthat's coming next week and
she's in the build out phase.
So she has a successful modelhere and she wants to scale it,
(23:34):
Love it.
So that's exciting, that'sawesome.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
That's great model here and she wants to scale it,
love it.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
So that's exciting, that's awesome, that's great.
There's another girl who is um,it's called bottleneck, so she
started something and she'sselling it.
Something's not working,something's not right, and so we
kind of diagnose, like what areall the things happening?
What's?
Like so you take a really widescope and then you kind of
figure out okay, based on theperson, maybe it's very obvious,
(24:00):
or maybe there's a couple ofsignals where it's like, okay,
if you maybe you know, starttweaking these three things, we
can like move through the bottleI think that's awesome.
So there's six differententrepreneurial stages.
Let's call it that we areseparating out and creating
separate inputs for because theykind of have different
situations.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I'm in a bottleneck, you're in a bottleneck.
Oh yeah, with the riveter, yes.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
All right, Amy, thank you so much as usual.
You are just so enlightening, Icould talk to you forever.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I learn so much from you every time and love hanging
out.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I feel the same way and if you're still out there
following your girl, follow meon YouTube, spotify, apple or
wherever you get your podcasts.
Until next time, keep moving.
I love you.
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