October 3, 2025 • 26 mins
Everyone’s out here glued to their follower count like it’s the stock market. But let me hit you with some truth: likes don’t pay the bills. Revenue does.
In this Ask Amy x The Keri Croft Show mashup, Amy Nelson and I go all in on the difference between chasing vanity metrics and actually building a business that works. We dig into:
✨ The wild ROI of email marketing (and why it’s still the most underrated tool in the game)
✨ How effort—not excuses—is the edge you’ve been missing
✨ Why growth mindset beats “safe and stuck” every single time
✨ What it really looks like to start over, pivot, and create something better
And in case you missed it—Amy drops something big in this episode: she’s officially working with The B Lab. Why? Because even after building The Riveter and leading massive teams, she knows it’s never too late to shift gears, find clarity, and build something new that actually fires you up.
This one’s for anyone who’s tired of feeling stuck on the content hamster wheel and ready to put their energy into what actually moves the needle.
So quit obsessing over followers. Start building revenue. Let’s go. ⚡️
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey there you beautiful badass.
Welcome to the Keri Croft Show.
I'm your host, keri Croft,delivering you stories that get
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at Donaldson Amy Nelson.
Hey, keri, welcome back to theKeri Croft Show.
Ask Amy edition so happy to behere.
(01:57):
I mean my cup runneth over, sowait, where were you?
You just got back fromsomething very cool.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I did a wild work week with three work trips.
But the thing that I did formyself is that I went to a
weekend in Asheville, northCarolina, with a group of 40
newsletter creators to learnnewsletter skills.
Okay, I mean, I left my fourkids for a weekend, which I
never I don't think I've everwillingly done that.
But I wanted to learn.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
But I wanted to learn , so bubble it up.
So for the person at homethat's like ooh interesting.
I didn't get to go, but likewhat would be the main takeaways
that you walked away with thatyou wouldn't have had if you
didn't?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
go.
I think the main takeaways areprobably what I would say about
so many things.
So the main takeaways for me Ihave a newsletter with 60,000
subscribers that I don't reallymonetize and it has always
seemed like this very big,complicated thing to me.
I'm not a newsletter creator, Ican't do this.
But eventually I got fed upwith myself and I was like, well
, fucking, figure it out, amy.
Like this isn't rocket science.
(02:55):
So I found a great teacher and Iwanted to be around other
people because you learn fromother people doing it.
And I went out there and it wasa bunch of skills sessions
around how to grow your audience, how to sell things to your
audience in a way that's notlike I'm a snake oil salesman,
(03:15):
but the things are good at yourservices how to work with
collaborators, you know, andit's kind of like it's there's a
rhythm to it, there are skillslike have this sequence, you
know, pitch this way.
It's not that complicated.
And my mind was blown by thefact I was sitting there and I
was like literally everybodycould build an email list and
make some money doing itEveryone, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
And they talk about the ROI on an email list.
They give you the those thedata.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I mean I, you know I.
There was one guy.
He had an email list of, youknow, 5,000 people and he was
monetizing it to thousands ofdollars every month.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, I believe it's like for every dollar you make,
back 37.
It's different depending on howpeople spend, but I think
there's like an industry averagethat it's either 37 or $47.
Let's see what chat says.
Let's just fuck with chat.
What does chat say?
Can you please give us an ideaof the roi on an email list?
(04:06):
Like for every dollar I spend,what do I get in returns?
Please be as detailed aspossible because I'd really love
to learn as much as I can here.
You know you're not supposed tosay please to chat.
I know, and I didn't say thankyou, you don't need to.
I know you're not supposed tobecause they spend more money.
That's right.
It takes our energy, it takesour water carry.
I say hey, motherfucker, hey,you asshole.
Oh, he's thinking longer for abetter answer.
(04:28):
I hope he doesn't, becausepeople, people think oh, email,
is you know so this or so, thatit's just not sexy and glamorous
and it's not it's the future,but it's like do we really need
sexy and?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
glamorous or do we want revenue you want revenue.
You're building a business,especially when your head's on
the pillow.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, like it's building a business.
Oh, this you know, chet.
Really we have a goodrelationship.
He is really going above andbeyond here.
Does your chat have a name?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Chet Chet, that's good.
What's yours?
Carl's is named Luke, I don'tknow why.
What's yours?
I don't have a name.
I use of deep research.
I use AI for deep research.
So, yes, and I think Perplexityand Claude are better than
ChatGPT for deep research.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I want to do deep research.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
This is like an expert opinion over here.
You guys, I'm not like you needto go use this, but I love it.
But there are people that aremaking seven figures off of
newsletters.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And so you hear those statistics and this is like
true for anything.
You hear whether it's a course,an email list, and I'm making X
amount of dollars a month andwe get so seduced by that.
But it is true for the minority.
It's not going to be everyonemaking that, but those people
(05:42):
who are doing that, they aredefinitely putting time, effort
and energy and focus into it.
They're not just checking a boxand one of the things.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I will say that one of my biggest takeaways from
this audience camp it's calledthe audience camp by Matt
McGarry.
He was a great newsletteragency and one of my biggest
(06:14):
takeaways was that everybody whowas succeeding at building
their newsletter, drivingrevenue from the newsletter, was
keeping a tight look at theirdata and experimenting.
And it goes back to what we'vealways talked about with the
business things.
When all the different pieceswork, like the data matters Look
at what's working, look atwhat's not working.
You should know if every dollaryou're spending in your
business is makes sense or if itdoesn't.
Right 99 people aren't doingthat.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I know okay, so chet got back with me.
Yeah, industry benchmarks,direct marketing association.
For years dma has reported thatemail marketing delivers an
average roi of 36 to 42 dollarsfor every dollar spent.
That's wild, wild, that is wild.
So retail commerce is like 45to one, professional services 42
to one, media publishing 40 toone.
(06:50):
So what goes into the ROI, listquality, cost factors, revenue
levers.
And then here's an examplescenario If you invest a
thousand dollars in list growthand email software this quarter,
you add 500 new subscribers at$2 each and like, for example,
they're paying attention to thedata.
If their engagement is 25% open,that's 125 readers.
(07:13):
Click through 5%, 25 visitors.
Conversion, 4%, one sale.
If your product is $1,000,you've broken even on just one
purchase.
But when you go down into thegranular level, like that,
you're like wait, that makessense, right, Right.
But so when you?
But when you go down into thegranular level, like that,
you're like wait, that makessense, Right.
But then when you're so busyand you're at the high level and
you don't have the foundationor the data, you don't
(07:33):
understand, you don't know whatyou don't know.
So it really is.
It's actually just knowledge ispower.
It feels good to like take itdown to like seriously.
That was fifth grade math wedid it really was, I think, the
other.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
The other thing, like the other big takeaway I had,
was it is so important to putyourself in places, around
people who are doing interestingthings that you're interested
in.
Like, I did not get on mylaptop the entire weekend, I
just sat with these people and Ilearned it was interesting.
They all have growth mindsetslike these are my, and it's
awesome and inspiring to bearound that.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Well, I also think too.
There's, I think, a fixedmindset and a growth mindset,
yes, and I believe that, like alot of people, especially when
you get to be a certain age,there is a shield or a wrapper
that you put around your lifeexperience because, hey, it's me
and I have to be worthsomething, and I want to be
(08:26):
smart and I want to be somebody,and there's a lot of
psychological layers to that.
But I will die in a growthmindset.
I will never, ever let myselfbe cemented or calcified into a
mindset with which I can't learnfrom another human being.
Now, if I'm sitting across froman absolute, like you know,
(08:49):
someone who is a completewhatever, I can still listen and
still go back and forth andunderstand.
Like, okay, this person isclearly in my mind, not even in
the realm, but I'm not going toattack that person.
I'm going to live my life andmove on and continue to try to
be around people who improve theatmosphere.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
But that is like there's two things to that right
, like A, what I figured out andI 100% agree with you.
But what I figured out is it'sa lot easier to have a fixed
mindset.
You can justify anything youdon't try in the world.
Oh, I can't do that, you know?
Yes, you can, you can quiteliterally do anything, you just
have to decide to.
(09:27):
And it is so important to havea growth mindset as you age
because it will make you livelonger, it will literally add
years to your life.
And the other thing, becauseit's like, oh, there are 80 year
olds that climb Mount Everestand it's.
They're not, like you know,superheroes, they're just people
that decided that they weregoing to keep going and keep
trying new things.
Like women who started liftingweights in their 70s and entered
(09:50):
bodybuilding competitions.
Like why the fuck not?
Right, like, why not?
But it's a lot easier to say tomyself I can't start a company,
I can't raise venture capital,I can't run a marathon yes, you
can, yeah, and you can alsoguess what try and fail and then
try again, yeah.
But I mean, I just think it'sso important.
But the other thing I will sayabout seeking out people with a
growth mindset.
(10:10):
That is one of the mostchallenging things I have in my
life, because I don't reallywant to hang out with people
that don't have a growth mindset.
It's just not that interesting,Like and I and I don't.
It's it's, but it's hard toconstantly seek out people who
have a growth mindset, like itis a challenge to keep going
yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
I think my experience in that is that you don't try
that, you it.
They come to you.
That's I mean you build yourlife and then, they and I look
at this, I mean so and and whenyou say don't try, I mean you
said what.
You started the show and you'vebeen trying.
You've been doing a lot ofthings.
Yes, you set yourself up, but Ithink the way you live your
life and when you're puttingthose vibes out, you absolutely
(10:52):
those people will be drawn toyou.
It's like magnets.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, and the counter to that is that people with a
fixed mindset will not want tohang out with you.
No, because it's.
It's.
It's disappointing if you're,if you're not, someone who's
willing to take the risks andget in the arena.
It's hard to hang out withpeople who are, because you see,
it.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
You know you could too, and you're choosing not to
Well it just reinforces, itmakes you feel, it reinforces
those negative feelings you haveof yourself.
Yeah, and, like you know, Iwould love to help pull as many
people as I could onto thegrowth side.
Yeah, but I think what it allboils down to, well, there's two
things, there's two majorcomponents to that that that
(11:30):
stop people.
Number one is the belief inyourself, which is everything,
but then two is effort.
People do not want to put effortand let's just, let's just boil
it down, call it what it is.
So if you're sitting at homeand you're you're motherfucking
us right now cause you're mad atthis conversation, let's look,
check it out.
Look at your stats, like, whatis it you're trying to
(11:53):
accomplish?
What have you not accomplished?
And then what are the reasonswhy?
And I promise you effortthere's a neon flashing Cause.
Guess what it's hard, guesswhat it's not fun, guess what?
I'd rather stay home and watchdays of our lives and eat
bonbons every day.
That shit's easy.
Yeah, I don't want to get up at4 30 in the morning.
(12:14):
I don't want to eat the proteinshake.
I don't want to, like, have awalk because I know it's going
to be good for my mental health.
Like, of course, I do want todo those things but, it's E it's
effort.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
E.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
F F O R T effort.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I completely agree with you.
And this, like I think Irealized this about the world
when I was 36, because I hadthis epiphany I had gotten an
in-house job as an attorney at acell phone company.
Oh my God.
So I'm in this office parkoutside of Seattle Washington.
I'd been at law firms beforethat.
I'm in this office park.
It's very hard to get anin-house job as a litigation
(12:49):
attorney, which is what I was.
They're very rare.
The job was incredibly boringto me and it was also quite easy
and I made six figures and Iwould keep getting a raise and I
would keep getting stock if Istayed.
And when I quit after 11 monthsbecause I thought I was going to
die when I was quitting and Idecided I would start my own
(13:12):
company, someone at the companywas like why would you ever
leave this job?
It's so easy.
And I said it would kill me tosit here and waste my life being
bored.
I would rather go do very hardthings and maybe fail than sit
here.
Oh yeah, but I realized then,because it just hadn't occurred
(13:32):
to me, that anybody would makethe choice to sit at the safe
job and be bored.
But that is most people and Ialways.
You know, I was like Hunter SThompson has this quote buy the
ticket, take the ride.
I would choose that every day,all day, and it has ended in
fucking disaster for me multipletimes.
Right, like I am the queen ofannihilation.
My life has been blown upmultiple times, but it's never
(13:55):
boring.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
And you can always begin again.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah Right, it's like you've never gone and sat in a
movie and watch someone be boredfor an hour and a half.
You watch heroes, you watchvillains, you watch people do
wild, outrageous things, andthose are the stories we all
deserve.
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It's funny that you say that.
Um, and you're right.
It's the path less traveled forall all kinds of reasons that
we could could be 10 podcasts,but there was this quote
yesterday.
I'm reading this audio orlistening to this audio book,
and I think it was from napoleonhill, and it says something
(15:41):
like put your focus on us, on adefinite goal, and watch how the
world all steps aside unlessyou walk through.
Yeah, and I, I literally I hitthe button like six times
because I wanted to.
And it's so because I had justcome off that conversation with
cory gregory at muscle islandand it was kind of the same
sentiment around this big thinghe the undertaking mentally and
(16:05):
not knowing what the hell he wasdoing, but doing it anyway.
And how is this island sittinghere for a hundred years?
Because everyone else, because98% of people, saw a road block
or an obstacle.
And if they did take a stepforward to get it, they realize,
oh wait, there's no utilitieshere or there's no seawalls here
.
And so that idea of put yourmind on a specific goal and
(16:28):
watch the rest of the world stepaside so you can walk through,
I mean it's beautiful, it's sotrue, it's beautiful.
And so when you have thatsomething in there bubbling up
or you have that little voice,it feels like it's so far down
in your gut that you can barelyhear it.
But there's something therethat's causing a little bit of
discontentment.
It's causing a little bit ofyou questioning.
(16:50):
You hear it, but there'ssomething there that's causing a
little bit of discontentment.
It's causing a little bit ofyou questioning you hear it.
That's how it starts and thenyou mine for it.
And it doesn't happen overnight.
It doesn't go from this littlewhisper deep down in the valleys
of your intuition to all of asudden being this thing that
comes out.
All of a sudden being thisthing that comes out but that,
instead of being afraid of that,have FOMO, that you're never
(17:10):
going to take that ride and getit out into the world.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Have FOMO.
I mean, I love this and I wishI'd met you when I was 25
because, you know, when Igraduated law school, there was
always a voice in me you are notbuilt to sit in an office.
There is something differentout there for you.
You can impact people.
You are not built to sit in anoffice.
There is something differentout there for you.
You can impact people.
You can do something.
Go do it.
And I was so afraid to do it,you know, and it was really like
meeting my husband, who was mypartner in life and courage.
(17:38):
It was like take a swing kidyeah, and I knew he had my back.
Yeah, and that was a big partof it.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
But, like God, listen to the voice.
Life is short.
You get one ride Right and Ithink even let's take it a step
further because you and I, as we, have continued this sort of
journey together friendship, butthen also challenging one
another and it's been such agreat thing.
Clearly our business kind ofminds are like okay, what can we
do together?
here, and like we're in themiddle of all that, and so the B
lab has been part of thisconversation here and like we're
(18:09):
, we're in the middle of allthat, and so the B lab has been
part of this conversation, andso we're not just sitting here
in your ear going, hey, we'regoing to be great cheerleaders
and you can do it.
Kid, we actually are buildingand you have the riveter and
you're doing other things too.
We are walking the walk andbuilding a business and an
infrastructure that can help youfigure out how to go from that
(18:29):
thing being buried into yourintuition yeah, into a starting
line of a potential, like alittle incubator of an idea.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, into a micro little business, right into a
freaking solid business and offand running, like that's what
the b lab is and that is, andlike that's the thing about the
b lab that's so amazing is thisis how you change your life, one
step at a time, but you have todive in and take the effort to
do it, but there are peoplethere to help.
There are people who will guideyou.
It's like every woman I knowwho has built something is
(19:00):
willing to turn behind them andsay can I show you how to do
this?
Because it does not have to bethe way it is for you right now.
Right, it's like you knowpeople will say well, I don't
have your social media following.
Guess what?
I didn't have my social mediafollowing when I started the
Riveter, I had like 3000followers on Instagram and it
was pictures of my kids yeah,and not good pictures.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
You know.
So it's like like you build thewhy I am obsessed what you do
with the B Lab, because peopleneed guidance and collaboration
and friendship and all of thatto go past I'm just excited for
you.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
I'm excited to sort of like guide you through yeah,
I am too Some of the brave shiftstuff that's happening.
It's been like a lot of thingstwirling on my mind in terms of
your experience.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
So you can actually you know experience what we're
building in that way.
But speaking of social mediapresence, that's another tie
back to the B-Lab, because Ibelieve that we are way too
focused on vanity metrics.
I feel like everyone's staringat this one front door which is
Instagram or TikTok, and listen,it's a part, it's an inevitable
(20:08):
part of the strategy.
It's another way to get yourmessage out into the world.
I'm not saying I'm notdiscounting that, but so many
people who have their face likepicture your face right now in
front of like a window, likewith glass, like this, with your
nose.
Okay, this is what everyone'sdoing on social how many likes,
how many shares, how manyfucking many fucking followers.
(20:31):
Right, this is where you areand everything going on behind
you the ecosystem,infrastructure, experience,
community um email, by the wayoh yeah all, all, this entire
system is passing you right by.
Yeah, and guess what's tied tothat system?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Revenue.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Bitches, I know I'm running out of money, so while
you're window, shopping for yourego and the vanity metrics,
instead of stepping back andsaying, okay, here's a whole
list of things or here's allthese little boxes in a line and
social media is one of those.
So yeah, we care for it, weprune, we water.
We do the things, but now I'mover here and here and here and
(21:12):
here on the entire assembly lineand ecosystem.
That guess what drives revenue.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
So come on.
Most people do not need anysocial media presence.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Most businesses do not need any social media
presence.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
That is the truth of it, and it's like, yes, I am on
TikTok and Instagram a lot, butguess what, I don't really make
any money from it.
That's not even your purpose,that's not your purpose?
No, it's not my purpose.
I'm on there doing activismright, I mean, you got shit
going on but I'll tell you thislike LinkedIn, where which is a
professional platform where Ihave the least amount of
followers, that's where I findthe most exciting business
(21:46):
opportunities and do driverevenue, yeah, for the riveter,
yep, right, and that's you know.
And nobody ever talks like, oh,I want to grow my LinkedIn
following, but that, like you,go to the places where the
people you can help are who needthe services you sell, like who
have the same problems you do.
That you're trying to fix.
Yeah, and a lot of times that'sin real life too oh right, like
right it's not on the Internetanywhere.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah.
So if you, if you're, if you'vestarted something and you kind
of feel like you're like Bobby,a rudderless ship in the ocean,
if you will, as my dad used tocall me in college If you're
feeling like that, you shouldstep back.
Whether it's the B lab, whetherit's a coach somewhere, you
really should take a minute,come, swim back to the bay and
(22:27):
look at wait, what exactly am Itrying to accomplish?
Who am I serving Right?
What platforms andinfrastructures will tee me up
to not only reach thosecustomers in a genuine way, but
will also align me with?
Speaker 2 (22:44):
revenue?
Yeah, because without revenue,what the fuck are you doing?
No, right, I know it's like youhave to like we're building
businesses, it's just yeah it'sall of it that needs to be.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
It's.
It's like a sheet of music.
Yeah, truly it is, and that'show I.
That's how I know that soundsweird, but that's how.
When I'm in these engagementsand the way that I feel about
business, yeah, is that it canbe a very harmonious thing when
you see sort of like, you seethe brand clarity and you see
someone who isn't afraid toprice themselves from a value
(23:13):
perspective and you see cultureand a leadership team that's
aligned.
And then you see a financialP&L that feels like you're
throwing out some cash at theend of it.
And then all this kind of goes,you're feeling, and then you
see the opposite at the end ofit.
And then all this kind of goes,you're feeling, and then you
see the opposite and you're likeno wonder people can't sleep at
night and their mental healthand their hair's falling out and
(23:34):
shit, but then they're nothelping themselves.
Step back, get somebody thatcan put a lens on the shit and
help you reorganize the piecesof the puzzle and get it flowing
.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
And it's never too late to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
No, and get it flowing.
And it's never too late to dothat.
No, it's never.
And it's also never too late tosay you know.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
I left lawyering because I didn't love it and
I'll say this publicly.
Right, like I, the Riveter, Iset out to build coworking and
event spaces and I built a teamof 150, which I did not love at
all.
And today, you know, I'm eightyears into this and I am not
super inspired by what it istoday and it's like this is my
fucking company right.
(24:13):
Like I.
You know it's like and I'm notinspired by it.
So what do I do now?
Cause I have to do something,and that's why you know I'm
working with the B lab.
Because I have to do something,because I deserve better.
The people I serve, you know,deserve better.
It's never too late to change.
Even if you've built your owncompany, it's never too late to
change it again.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
No, and it's so funny how I could not be doing
anything else that I.
That would give me moresatisfaction.
The like I already see yeah, Ialready see you, I already see
it, like it's been obvious to mesince probably three months ago
where I was like wait,something just really clicked
with me on exactly, and thenyou're like, yeah, well, I'm
(24:52):
thinking about doing it all,just kind of, yeah, trust the
vision, trust the intuition,like you are literally framing
something up that's going toexist.
This is another thing aboutpeople who don't have vision
versus people who do yeah, ifyou have a vision and you can
see out into the distance, well,first of all, how are you going
(25:13):
to create something if youdon't have the vision?
Right, but understand that whenyou are a visionary, people
will think you're delusional,they will think you're crazy.
So, like kind of temper, howmany people you talk to because
they're going to kill your joy?
Talk to because they're goingto kill your joy?
But that's the first part of it.
And being able to have thatgift of, or skill set to look
and be astute enough and careenough about another human being
(25:34):
to look at their vision and sayI see this for you, even maybe
some things before you even seeit.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, right, you're afraid of seeing Right.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Find yourself someone like that, yes, who can do that
for you and set your trajectoryin a completely different path.
Stop doing shit you'remiserable doing because you
don't know how to get out of it.
You're stronger than you know.
You're smarter, you're moreresourceful, more capable than
you know.
Step back and figure it out.
Tiktok, motherfucker, likeseriously.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
TikTok, yeah, yes, every day that passes is a day.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
You should be doing the thing I'm excited to go to
Washington DC with you.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
I'm excited for you to come to Washington DC.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
And Nettie's going to come.
It's going to be amazing.
You're going to love Nettie.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
You're going to love it and everyone will love you.
It's going to be amazing.
Can't wait.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, Thank you Amy.
Oh, my gosh Apple or whereveryou get your podcasts, and until
next time, keep moving baby.
Hey there you beautiful badass.
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I'm your host, keri Croft,delivering you stories that get
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Hey, keri, welcome back to theKeri Croft Show.
Ask Amy edition so happy to behere.
(01:57):
I mean my cup runneth over, sowait, where were you?
You just got back fromsomething very cool.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I did a wild work week with three work trips.
But the thing that I did formyself is that I went to a
weekend in Asheville, northCarolina, with a group of 40
newsletter creators to learnnewsletter skills.
Okay, I mean, I left my fourkids for a weekend, which I
never I don't think I've everwillingly done that.
But I wanted to learn.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
But I wanted to learn , so bubble it up.
So for the person at homethat's like ooh interesting.
I didn't get to go, but likewhat would be the main takeaways
that you walked away with thatyou wouldn't have had if you
didn't?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
go.
I think the main takeaways areprobably what I would say about
so many things.
So the main takeaways for me Ihave a newsletter with 60,000
subscribers that I don't reallymonetize and it has always
seemed like this very big,complicated thing to me.
I'm not a newsletter creator, Ican't do this.
But eventually I got fed upwith myself and I was like, well
, fucking, figure it out, amy.
Like this isn't rocket science.
(02:55):
So I found a great teacher and Iwanted to be around other
people because you learn fromother people doing it.
And I went out there and it wasa bunch of skills sessions
around how to grow your audience, how to sell things to your
audience in a way that's notlike I'm a snake oil salesman,
(03:15):
but the things are good at yourservices how to work with
collaborators, you know, andit's kind of like it's there's a
rhythm to it, there are skillslike have this sequence, you
know, pitch this way.
It's not that complicated.
And my mind was blown by thefact I was sitting there and I
was like literally everybodycould build an email list and
make some money doing itEveryone, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
And they talk about the ROI on an email list.
They give you the those thedata.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I mean I, you know I.
There was one guy.
He had an email list of, youknow, 5,000 people and he was
monetizing it to thousands ofdollars every month.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, I believe it's like for every dollar you make,
back 37.
It's different depending on howpeople spend, but I think
there's like an industry averagethat it's either 37 or $47.
Let's see what chat says.
Let's just fuck with chat.
What does chat say?
Can you please give us an ideaof the roi on an email list?
(04:06):
Like for every dollar I spend,what do I get in returns?
Please be as detailed aspossible because I'd really love
to learn as much as I can here.
You know you're not supposed tosay please to chat.
I know, and I didn't say thankyou, you don't need to.
I know you're not supposed tobecause they spend more money.
That's right.
It takes our energy, it takesour water carry.
I say hey, motherfucker, hey,you asshole.
Oh, he's thinking longer for abetter answer.
(04:28):
I hope he doesn't, becausepeople, people think oh, email,
is you know so this or so, thatit's just not sexy and glamorous
and it's not it's the future,but it's like do we really need
sexy and?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
glamorous or do we want revenue you want revenue.
You're building a business,especially when your head's on
the pillow.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, like it's building a business.
Oh, this you know, chet.
Really we have a goodrelationship.
He is really going above andbeyond here.
Does your chat have a name?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Chet Chet, that's good.
What's yours?
Carl's is named Luke, I don'tknow why.
What's yours?
I don't have a name.
I use of deep research.
I use AI for deep research.
So, yes, and I think Perplexityand Claude are better than
ChatGPT for deep research.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I want to do deep research.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
This is like an expert opinion over here.
You guys, I'm not like you needto go use this, but I love it.
But there are people that aremaking seven figures off of
newsletters.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And so you hear those statistics and this is like
true for anything.
You hear whether it's a course,an email list, and I'm making X
amount of dollars a month andwe get so seduced by that.
But it is true for the minority.
It's not going to be everyonemaking that, but those people
(05:42):
who are doing that, they aredefinitely putting time, effort
and energy and focus into it.
They're not just checking a boxand one of the things.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I will say that one of my biggest takeaways from
this audience camp it's calledthe audience camp by Matt
McGarry.
He was a great newsletteragency and one of my biggest
(06:14):
takeaways was that everybody whowas succeeding at building
their newsletter, drivingrevenue from the newsletter, was
keeping a tight look at theirdata and experimenting.
And it goes back to what we'vealways talked about with the
business things.
When all the different pieceswork, like the data matters Look
at what's working, look atwhat's not working.
You should know if every dollaryou're spending in your
business is makes sense or if itdoesn't.
Right 99 people aren't doingthat.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I know okay, so chet got back with me.
Yeah, industry benchmarks,direct marketing association.
For years dma has reported thatemail marketing delivers an
average roi of 36 to 42 dollarsfor every dollar spent.
That's wild, wild, that is wild.
So retail commerce is like 45to one, professional services 42
to one, media publishing 40 toone.
(06:50):
So what goes into the ROI, listquality, cost factors, revenue
levers.
And then here's an examplescenario If you invest a
thousand dollars in list growthand email software this quarter,
you add 500 new subscribers at$2 each and like, for example,
they're paying attention to thedata.
If their engagement is 25% open,that's 125 readers.
(07:13):
Click through 5%, 25 visitors.
Conversion, 4%, one sale.
If your product is $1,000,you've broken even on just one
purchase.
But when you go down into thegranular level, like that,
you're like wait, that makessense, right, Right.
But so when you?
But when you go down into thegranular level, like that,
you're like wait, that makessense, Right.
But then when you're so busyand you're at the high level and
you don't have the foundationor the data, you don't
(07:33):
understand, you don't know whatyou don't know.
So it really is.
It's actually just knowledge ispower.
It feels good to like take itdown to like seriously.
That was fifth grade math wedid it really was, I think, the
other.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
The other thing, like the other big takeaway I had,
was it is so important to putyourself in places, around
people who are doing interestingthings that you're interested
in.
Like, I did not get on mylaptop the entire weekend, I
just sat with these people and Ilearned it was interesting.
They all have growth mindsetslike these are my, and it's
awesome and inspiring to bearound that.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Well, I also think too.
There's, I think, a fixedmindset and a growth mindset,
yes, and I believe that, like alot of people, especially when
you get to be a certain age,there is a shield or a wrapper
that you put around your lifeexperience because, hey, it's me
and I have to be worthsomething, and I want to be
(08:26):
smart and I want to be somebody,and there's a lot of
psychological layers to that.
But I will die in a growthmindset.
I will never, ever let myselfbe cemented or calcified into a
mindset with which I can't learnfrom another human being.
Now, if I'm sitting across froman absolute, like you know,
(08:49):
someone who is a completewhatever, I can still listen and
still go back and forth andunderstand.
Like, okay, this person isclearly in my mind, not even in
the realm, but I'm not going toattack that person.
I'm going to live my life andmove on and continue to try to
be around people who improve theatmosphere.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
But that is like there's two things to that right
, like A, what I figured out andI 100% agree with you.
But what I figured out is it'sa lot easier to have a fixed
mindset.
You can justify anything youdon't try in the world.
Oh, I can't do that, you know?
Yes, you can, you can quiteliterally do anything, you just
have to decide to.
(09:27):
And it is so important to havea growth mindset as you age
because it will make you livelonger, it will literally add
years to your life.
And the other thing, becauseit's like, oh, there are 80 year
olds that climb Mount Everestand it's.
They're not, like you know,superheroes, they're just people
that decided that they weregoing to keep going and keep
trying new things.
Like women who started liftingweights in their 70s and entered
(09:50):
bodybuilding competitions.
Like why the fuck not?
Right, like, why not?
But it's a lot easier to say tomyself I can't start a company,
I can't raise venture capital,I can't run a marathon yes, you
can, yeah, and you can alsoguess what try and fail and then
try again, yeah.
But I mean, I just think it'sso important.
But the other thing I will sayabout seeking out people with a
growth mindset.
(10:10):
That is one of the mostchallenging things I have in my
life, because I don't reallywant to hang out with people
that don't have a growth mindset.
It's just not that interesting,Like and I and I don't.
It's it's, but it's hard toconstantly seek out people who
have a growth mindset, like itis a challenge to keep going
yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
I think my experience in that is that you don't try
that, you it.
They come to you.
That's I mean you build yourlife and then, they and I look
at this, I mean so and and whenyou say don't try, I mean you
said what.
You started the show and you'vebeen trying.
You've been doing a lot ofthings.
Yes, you set yourself up, but Ithink the way you live your
life and when you're puttingthose vibes out, you absolutely
(10:52):
those people will be drawn toyou.
It's like magnets.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, and the counter to that is that people with a
fixed mindset will not want tohang out with you.
No, because it's.
It's.
It's disappointing if you're,if you're not, someone who's
willing to take the risks andget in the arena.
It's hard to hang out withpeople who are, because you see,
it.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
You know you could too, and you're choosing not to
Well it just reinforces, itmakes you feel, it reinforces
those negative feelings you haveof yourself.
Yeah, and, like you know, Iwould love to help pull as many
people as I could onto thegrowth side.
Yeah, but I think what it allboils down to, well, there's two
things, there's two majorcomponents to that that that
(11:30):
stop people.
Number one is the belief inyourself, which is everything,
but then two is effort.
People do not want to put effortand let's just, let's just boil
it down, call it what it is.
So if you're sitting at homeand you're you're motherfucking
us right now cause you're mad atthis conversation, let's look,
check it out.
Look at your stats, like, whatis it you're trying to
(11:53):
accomplish?
What have you not accomplished?
And then what are the reasonswhy?
And I promise you effortthere's a neon flashing Cause.
Guess what it's hard, guesswhat it's not fun, guess what?
I'd rather stay home and watchdays of our lives and eat
bonbons every day.
That shit's easy.
Yeah, I don't want to get up at4 30 in the morning.
(12:14):
I don't want to eat the proteinshake.
I don't want to, like, have awalk because I know it's going
to be good for my mental health.
Like, of course, I do want todo those things but, it's E it's
effort.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
E.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
F F O R T effort.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I completely agree with you.
And this, like I think Irealized this about the world
when I was 36, because I hadthis epiphany I had gotten an
in-house job as an attorney at acell phone company.
Oh my God.
So I'm in this office parkoutside of Seattle Washington.
I'd been at law firms beforethat.
I'm in this office park.
It's very hard to get anin-house job as a litigation
(12:49):
attorney, which is what I was.
They're very rare.
The job was incredibly boringto me and it was also quite easy
and I made six figures and Iwould keep getting a raise and I
would keep getting stock if Istayed.
And when I quit after 11 monthsbecause I thought I was going to
die when I was quitting and Idecided I would start my own
(13:12):
company, someone at the companywas like why would you ever
leave this job?
It's so easy.
And I said it would kill me tosit here and waste my life being
bored.
I would rather go do very hardthings and maybe fail than sit
here.
Oh yeah, but I realized then,because it just hadn't occurred
(13:32):
to me, that anybody would makethe choice to sit at the safe
job and be bored.
But that is most people and Ialways.
You know, I was like Hunter SThompson has this quote buy the
ticket, take the ride.
I would choose that every day,all day, and it has ended in
fucking disaster for me multipletimes.
Right, like I am the queen ofannihilation.
My life has been blown upmultiple times, but it's never
(13:55):
boring.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
And you can always begin again.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah Right, it's like you've never gone and sat in a
movie and watch someone be boredfor an hour and a half.
You watch heroes, you watchvillains, you watch people do
wild, outrageous things, andthose are the stories we all
deserve.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
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It's funny that you say that.
Um, and you're right.
It's the path less traveled forall all kinds of reasons that
we could could be 10 podcasts,but there was this quote
yesterday.
I'm reading this audio orlistening to this audio book,
and I think it was from napoleonhill, and it says something
(15:41):
like put your focus on us, on adefinite goal, and watch how the
world all steps aside unlessyou walk through.
Yeah, and I, I literally I hitthe button like six times
because I wanted to.
And it's so because I had justcome off that conversation with
cory gregory at muscle islandand it was kind of the same
sentiment around this big thinghe the undertaking mentally and
(16:05):
not knowing what the hell he wasdoing, but doing it anyway.
And how is this island sittinghere for a hundred years?
Because everyone else, because98% of people, saw a road block
or an obstacle.
And if they did take a stepforward to get it, they realize,
oh wait, there's no utilitieshere or there's no seawalls here
.
And so that idea of put yourmind on a specific goal and
(16:28):
watch the rest of the world stepaside so you can walk through,
I mean it's beautiful, it's sotrue, it's beautiful.
And so when you have thatsomething in there bubbling up
or you have that little voice,it feels like it's so far down
in your gut that you can barelyhear it.
But there's something therethat's causing a little bit of
discontentment.
It's causing a little bit ofyou questioning.
(16:50):
You hear it, but there'ssomething there that's causing a
little bit of discontentment.
It's causing a little bit ofyou questioning you hear it.
That's how it starts and thenyou mine for it.
And it doesn't happen overnight.
It doesn't go from this littlewhisper deep down in the valleys
of your intuition to all of asudden being this thing that
comes out.
All of a sudden being thisthing that comes out but that,
instead of being afraid of that,have FOMO, that you're never
(17:10):
going to take that ride and getit out into the world.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Have FOMO.
I mean, I love this and I wishI'd met you when I was 25
because, you know, when Igraduated law school, there was
always a voice in me you are notbuilt to sit in an office.
There is something differentout there for you.
You can impact people.
You are not built to sit in anoffice.
There is something differentout there for you.
You can impact people.
You can do something.
Go do it.
And I was so afraid to do it,you know, and it was really like
meeting my husband, who was mypartner in life and courage.
(17:38):
It was like take a swing kidyeah, and I knew he had my back.
Yeah, and that was a big partof it.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
But, like God, listen to the voice.
Life is short.
You get one ride Right and Ithink even let's take it a step
further because you and I, as we, have continued this sort of
journey together friendship, butthen also challenging one
another and it's been such agreat thing.
Clearly our business kind ofminds are like okay, what can we
do together?
here, and like we're in themiddle of all that, and so the B
lab has been part of thisconversation here and like we're
(18:09):
, we're in the middle of allthat, and so the B lab has been
part of this conversation, andso we're not just sitting here
in your ear going, hey, we'regoing to be great cheerleaders
and you can do it.
Kid, we actually are buildingand you have the riveter and
you're doing other things too.
We are walking the walk andbuilding a business and an
infrastructure that can help youfigure out how to go from that
(18:29):
thing being buried into yourintuition yeah, into a starting
line of a potential, like alittle incubator of an idea.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, into a micro little business, right into a
freaking solid business and offand running, like that's what
the b lab is and that is, andlike that's the thing about the
b lab that's so amazing is thisis how you change your life, one
step at a time, but you have todive in and take the effort to
do it, but there are peoplethere to help.
There are people who will guideyou.
It's like every woman I knowwho has built something is
(19:00):
willing to turn behind them andsay can I show you how to do
this?
Because it does not have to bethe way it is for you right now.
Right, it's like you knowpeople will say well, I don't
have your social media following.
Guess what?
I didn't have my social mediafollowing when I started the
Riveter, I had like 3000followers on Instagram and it
was pictures of my kids yeah,and not good pictures.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
You know.
So it's like like you build thewhy I am obsessed what you do
with the B Lab, because peopleneed guidance and collaboration
and friendship and all of thatto go past I'm just excited for
you.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
I'm excited to sort of like guide you through yeah,
I am too Some of the brave shiftstuff that's happening.
It's been like a lot of thingstwirling on my mind in terms of
your experience.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
So you can actually you know experience what we're
building in that way.
But speaking of social mediapresence, that's another tie
back to the B-Lab, because Ibelieve that we are way too
focused on vanity metrics.
I feel like everyone's staringat this one front door which is
Instagram or TikTok, and listen,it's a part, it's an inevitable
(20:08):
part of the strategy.
It's another way to get yourmessage out into the world.
I'm not saying I'm notdiscounting that, but so many
people who have their face likepicture your face right now in
front of like a window, likewith glass, like this, with your
nose.
Okay, this is what everyone'sdoing on social how many likes,
how many shares, how manyfucking many fucking followers.
(20:31):
Right, this is where you areand everything going on behind
you the ecosystem,infrastructure, experience,
community um email, by the wayoh yeah all, all, this entire
system is passing you right by.
Yeah, and guess what's tied tothat system?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Revenue.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Bitches, I know I'm running out of money, so while
you're window, shopping for yourego and the vanity metrics,
instead of stepping back andsaying, okay, here's a whole
list of things or here's allthese little boxes in a line and
social media is one of those.
So yeah, we care for it, weprune, we water.
We do the things, but now I'mover here and here and here and
(21:12):
here on the entire assembly lineand ecosystem.
That guess what drives revenue.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
So come on.
Most people do not need anysocial media presence.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Most businesses do not need any social media
presence.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
That is the truth of it, and it's like, yes, I am on
TikTok and Instagram a lot, butguess what, I don't really make
any money from it.
That's not even your purpose,that's not your purpose?
No, it's not my purpose.
I'm on there doing activismright, I mean, you got shit
going on but I'll tell you thislike LinkedIn, where which is a
professional platform where Ihave the least amount of
followers, that's where I findthe most exciting business
(21:46):
opportunities and do driverevenue, yeah, for the riveter,
yep, right, and that's you know.
And nobody ever talks like, oh,I want to grow my LinkedIn
following, but that, like you,go to the places where the
people you can help are who needthe services you sell, like who
have the same problems you do.
That you're trying to fix.
Yeah, and a lot of times that'sin real life too oh right, like
right it's not on the Internetanywhere.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yeah.
So if you, if you're, if you'vestarted something and you kind
of feel like you're like Bobby,a rudderless ship in the ocean,
if you will, as my dad used tocall me in college If you're
feeling like that, you shouldstep back.
Whether it's the B lab, whetherit's a coach somewhere, you
really should take a minute,come, swim back to the bay and
(22:27):
look at wait, what exactly am Itrying to accomplish?
Who am I serving Right?
What platforms andinfrastructures will tee me up
to not only reach thosecustomers in a genuine way, but
will also align me with?
Speaker 2 (22:44):
revenue?
Yeah, because without revenue,what the fuck are you doing?
No, right, I know it's like youhave to like we're building
businesses, it's just yeah it'sall of it that needs to be.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
It's.
It's like a sheet of music.
Yeah, truly it is, and that'show I.
That's how I know that soundsweird, but that's how.
When I'm in these engagementsand the way that I feel about
business, yeah, is that it canbe a very harmonious thing when
you see sort of like, you seethe brand clarity and you see
someone who isn't afraid toprice themselves from a value
(23:13):
perspective and you see cultureand a leadership team that's
aligned.
And then you see a financialP&L that feels like you're
throwing out some cash at theend of it.
And then all this kind of goes,you're feeling, and then you
see the opposite at the end ofit.
And then all this kind of goes,you're feeling, and then you
see the opposite and you're likeno wonder people can't sleep at
night and their mental healthand their hair's falling out and
(23:34):
shit, but then they're nothelping themselves.
Step back, get somebody thatcan put a lens on the shit and
help you reorganize the piecesof the puzzle and get it flowing
.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
And it's never too late to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
No, and get it flowing.
And it's never too late to dothat.
No, it's never.
And it's also never too late tosay you know.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
I left lawyering because I didn't love it and
I'll say this publicly.
Right, like I, the Riveter, Iset out to build coworking and
event spaces and I built a teamof 150, which I did not love at
all.
And today, you know, I'm eightyears into this and I am not
super inspired by what it istoday and it's like this is my
fucking company right.
(24:13):
Like I.
You know it's like and I'm notinspired by it.
So what do I do now?
Cause I have to do something,and that's why you know I'm
working with the B lab.
Because I have to do something,because I deserve better.
The people I serve, you know,deserve better.
It's never too late to change.
Even if you've built your owncompany, it's never too late to
change it again.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
No, and it's so funny how I could not be doing
anything else that I.
That would give me moresatisfaction.
The like I already see yeah, Ialready see you, I already see
it, like it's been obvious to mesince probably three months ago
where I was like wait,something just really clicked
with me on exactly, and thenyou're like, yeah, well, I'm
(24:52):
thinking about doing it all,just kind of, yeah, trust the
vision, trust the intuition,like you are literally framing
something up that's going toexist.
This is another thing aboutpeople who don't have vision
versus people who do yeah, ifyou have a vision and you can
see out into the distance, well,first of all, how are you going
(25:13):
to create something if youdon't have the vision?
Right, but understand that whenyou are a visionary, people
will think you're delusional,they will think you're crazy.
So, like kind of temper, howmany people you talk to because
they're going to kill your joy?
Talk to because they're goingto kill your joy?
But that's the first part of it.
And being able to have thatgift of, or skill set to look
and be astute enough and careenough about another human being
(25:34):
to look at their vision and sayI see this for you, even maybe
some things before you even seeit.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, right, you're afraid of seeing Right.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Find yourself someone like that, yes, who can do that
for you and set your trajectoryin a completely different path.
Stop doing shit you'remiserable doing because you
don't know how to get out of it.
You're stronger than you know.
You're smarter, you're moreresourceful, more capable than
you know.
Step back and figure it out.
Tiktok, motherfucker, likeseriously.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
TikTok, yeah, yes, every day that passes is a day.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
You should be doing the thing I'm excited to go to
Washington DC with you.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
I'm excited for you to come to Washington DC.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
And Nettie's going to come.
It's going to be amazing.
You're going to love Nettie.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
You're going to love it and everyone will love you.
It's going to be amazing.
Can't wait.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, Thank you Amy.
Oh, my gosh Apple or whereveryou get your podcasts, and until
next time, keep moving baby.
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