August 15, 2025 • 51 mins
You can’t plan for the moments that change you, but you can decide what to do with them. That’s what I loved about my conversation with Sarah Gormley.
Sarah is a Columbus local and the owner of Sarah Gormley Gallery in the Short North—and she’s lived one hell of a story. We got into everything: standing on the porch screaming “F***” with her daughter in response to her mom's cancer diagnosis, dating as an adult while living in her childhood bedroom, getting fired by Martha Stewart, and what it’s really like to run an art gallery in a tough market.
She’s also written a book, The Order of Things: A Memoir About Chasing Joy, that didn’t even use the word “joy” until the last chapter — which tells you everything about the journey it took to find it.
We talked grief, love, starting over, and the work it takes to quiet that inner critic long enough to build a life you actually want to live. It’s proof that joy has a funny way of showing up when you least expect it.
📚 Grab Sarah’s book HERE.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (01:54):
And he was like, but he was like.
But I liked you kind of and I'mlike well, I mean, I thought
you were real handsome andcharming, but I didn't think
that there would be arelationship, right.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
You know that's so great.
Okay, we'll get to that.
We'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Everybody's always like are you still with him?
I'm like, yes, it's shocking.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
And then he lives here he lives in Powell.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
So we're now looking for a house which is like
Together.
Impossible to find a houseright now, oh sure.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, sarah Gormley, welcome to the Keri Croft Show.
Thank you for having me.
You know we're finally heretogether.
Yay, I love talking to peoplewho've actually sat down and
written a book.
It's like one of my dreams tobe able to write a book.
So when someone does it, anddoes it so successfully as you
have, have you started yours.
Yet I mean, yeah, I've got likea mess.
(02:45):
I've got a mess of like thingsin a google doc, but yeah, it's
just that's like such a, it'slike so out of my depth it's not
do it you'll.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
You'll love it what?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
so?
Was it something you alwaysthought about doing?
Or when you met that woman andshe said you should write a book
, was that like the first time.
It like hit you that you shouldwrite a book.
How that all come about.
That's such a good story.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Um, I try to like be humble, but I've always been a
good writer yeah.
I was writing poetry as a kidand in high school and I was a
lit major.
So writing is just somethingthat's like in me and I suppose,
somewhere in the back of themess of the mind I thought maybe
(03:26):
one day I'd like to write abook, but honestly didn't think
I had anything meaningful to say, and never fiction, always
first person narrative, memoir,and so somewhere I thought it
could be a possibility, but Ididn't think I had something to
write about until 2019.
(03:49):
Was the title a struggle?
This was not the original title.
The original title was this Iswhat you Need to Know Pretty
ambiguous, and the new title,the actual title title.
The order of things is still alittle nebulous.
Right, it doesn't look like.
What the hell is that bookabout?
(04:09):
Um, only when I added thesubhead which is a memoir about
chasing joy, did it really cometogether.
And I didn't realize.
I didn't realize that I waschasing joy until I finished
writing the book.
The word joy doesn't evenappear anywhere in the book
until the last chapter.
(04:30):
So anyway, it's, it's a processand you have to do it because
it's you learn so much aboutyourself and it's so convoluted
and it's you know.
You just have to commit and doit and if you do, you will write
a book.
I think everyone should write abook.
I'm like the book pimp.
I'm like do it write a book?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, cause I mean, even if you sell them or you
know like if it's externally,whatever the success is measured
by.
But to your point, I think youwould learn a lot about who you
are and it's like probably areally cool process to go
through internally.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It is and you know parts of it are very painful.
It's a little bit like, youknow, bleeding from the veins on
the page.
It's a little bit of emotionalexcavation maybe.
So you know, and then memory isvery tricky, you think is that
what happened?
(05:23):
Is that what we talked about?
Is that right?
And I don't know it's.
But then fun too.
I had a lot of laughs.
I mean, there was a spoileralert.
Mike came back home to Ohio.
Mom's cancer was back.
Oh, mom cancer was back.
(05:47):
And there's a scene in the bookand it sounds made up where
like we just stood on the porchand yelled fuck at each other at
the top of our lungs becauseyou know it was bad.
But in the writing process Ifound humor because I'm like
that's pretty funny.
Yeah, you know it's pretty funnythat a woman and her adult
(06:09):
daughter just standing on theporch yelling fuck at each other
as loud as they could, but howraw and real, I mean, because
there's really nothing else tosay Exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
You know it's like fuck, fuck, but the way you
wrote it in there too, it's likethe fuck is like this long, you
know, so you can.
You can actually picture youguys having that conversation,
but it's like fuck, fuck.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
You know why.
And so, yes, the writing it.
I've done some pretty coolthings in my life and hope to do
more, but I mean writing thebook and actually committing to
it and doing it.
I'm really proud of it and it'sthe book I wanted to write and
it's the best book I could write, so I'm proud of it.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, and you should be.
It's really good, thank you.
So, going back to what you justsaid about there were really
hard parts.
Looking back on the writingprocess, what were some of the
harder parts for you to reallysit with and write?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Two, the first two things that came up, and I say
this in the book, I'm going toanswer in two ways.
The week she dies and I saylike I've been procrastinating,
I didn't want to write this partbecause I wanted to show
(07:27):
readers what happened and be astruthful as possible and honor
her, because in hindsight now,increasingly, every year that
passes, now, increasingly, everyyear that passes, like she
(07:48):
managed her death so beautifully, and I think you know she did
it for herself, but I think shedid it for us, my brother and
sister and me and to be able todo that as a gift.
You know she was able to die athome at the family farm, her
favorite place on earth.
It was peaceful, home at thefamily farm, her favorite place
(08:09):
on earth.
It was peaceful and she waslucid until the day before, and
so I wanted each day to share ascene or two of what the
experience was like, because forpeople who have gone through it
, there's there's nothing quiteas profound.
I don't know if you've beenthrough it.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I in not in that detail of like being with
someone for that, but yeah, likemy grandma passed and like it's
definitely um, it's a, it's awhole thing, it's a real thing
yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
So so that was hard to write about.
The other thing that was hardto write about was my
relationship with her.
That was complicated andthere's a line in the book and
the relationship between amother and a daughter is no tidy
thing.
It's not and I I wanted againto show that while the
(09:02):
relationship had somecomplexities, it was fueled by
love and care and it took mesome therapy of my own to start
to see her as her own person.
That had nothing to do with meand that's a tip to viewers and
(09:25):
listeners.
That's where the emotionalgrowth is.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
It's hard to get there sometimes.
Yeah, because as a child, everyI think perspective you have on
your parent is attached to youor your lens.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
So when you can see them as just a flawed, scared
human being out there on theirown, doing the best, she can
with what she has.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
So that was hard to write again because I wanted it
to be accurate and show how Ichanged and how my perception of
her changed and how you know wedid the best we could.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Let's go back to your own, like your depression and
kind of this self-loathing stuffthat you feel like you just
always had inside of you.
Can you get like give thelistener a little more?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yes, and, and it's interesting that you say
depression, because I didn'tever name it that.
So, from the time I was alittle girl increasing into
teenage, dumb and youngadulthood, um, I've I think of
it as a cassette tape those donot exist anymore because I'm
old as hell, um but like arunning loop.
(10:42):
Imagine a loop on a film or a.
And it was just a constantinner voice of you're a piece of
shit, you suck, you're not goodenough, you're fat, you're ugly
, you know.
And.
And unlike depression forinstance, it didn't debilitate
(11:04):
me.
I wasn't not getting out of bed, I didn't go inward.
What happened is that theself-loathing was a motivator.
So I became an overachiever andit took me a long time to
(11:24):
untangle Like I was, like Idon't understand, I think, what
the world wants from me.
I thought what my parentswanted from me was to be smart
and skinny and successful, andso I just did those things, and
I don't say it lightly, but itappeared to everybody else that
(11:45):
it was easy for me to accomplishthings and do things.
But I thought that I needed thevoice to motivate me because I
was showing that negative voicethat I named Scott Kennedy, who
was the second grade bully.
So I don't know if that answersyour question, but that's what
(12:06):
it felt like and I didn'trealize all the I mean, you know
, because the world is givingyou the gold stars, right, you
keep getting the raises, youkeep getting the bigger job and
your friends you know I wassmart and funny and they all
liked me.
So it it is, and there are alot of women in particular who
(12:30):
have this.
I've since learned from afterwriting the book.
You know, name a woman in yourhead who you think looks amazing
, who's got it all going on anddig a little deeper, and she
might have some of this not all,but too many women in
(12:50):
particular, I think, do why was?
Speaker 1 (12:52):
where did the skinny thing come from?
From when you were really young?
The?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
skinny thing um.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
You know my mom went on diets, drank tab and fresca
and did atkins, and it's acontrol it was a control thing,
but it wasn't anything anyonesaid to you, it was just more.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
You saw your mom doing the diets, you saw that
she was thin and society said,yeah, and so you just thin is
good, thin is better, and so Iwas like, oh okay, well, let's
go be thin and, frankly, be asthin as possible, because thin
is good yeah, because youmentioned anorexia and that you
were obsessed with being thinand you'd get in the bathtub and
(13:30):
like, look at your hip bonesand you know calories around 16.
And I would say that 16 tosophomore year of college,
(13:57):
junior year of college, therewas stuff, um, and and I'm glad
(14:18):
you brought this up because it'sone of the things that I'm very
sensitive about.
So the way I handled it was bymyself, because I knew I had a
problem and I decided that Ican't be a woman who has an
(14:41):
eating disorder, because thatdoesn't line up with being smart
, skinny and successful.
You can be skinny, but youcan't have an eating disorder,
because people who have aneating disorder have a disorder
and I couldn't do that Now, doesthat make sense to anyone but
me?
Probably not.
A lot of people need help.
(15:03):
A lot of people need a lot oftherapy.
A lot of people need help.
A lot of people need a lot oftherapy.
A lot of people need clinicswith professionals, and so I am
not suggesting that other peoplecan help themselves with
disordered eating withoutexternal help, and so I was
sensitive to that in the book.
Again, I wanted to be astruthful as possible, but that's
(15:25):
, you know.
I still have some stuff.
You know now I'm into themenopausal stuff, so that's
super fun.
There's always stuff.
There's always stuff.
So I mean, I'm not walkingaround in a bikini celebrating
my body every day, let's beclear, right, right.
(15:46):
But I have a much better handleon what health means.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah, so you.
So you had it.
You dabbled, which we have.
People have, like they'vedabbled in, um, you know,
binging and purging, and like.
It doesn't mean you'renecessarily going to need to go
into the hospital and needintervention.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Sometimes people can work themselves through phases
of things yes, so it's kind ofso I had a good four to five
years committed to beingstarving myself, okay, and then
you kind of like I just evolvedout of it.
Yeah, evolved out of it yeah,which I'm.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
You're not the only one that's done, that's yeah and
so you were really successfulprofessionally well relatively.
I mean I think, and then youget fired from Martha Stewart.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Oh, yes, I want to know?
Speaker 1 (16:23):
did you know?
Know her?
Yes.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
So you like know her.
If she saw me today, she wouldpretend like she didn't know me
and she would be like I don'teven know who.
That is Probably, but it's okay.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
But she knows you.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
She knows me.
We had some funny times.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
What did you think about her documentary?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
You know what I thought?
The documentary was really welldone.
I read her complaint about it,which was at the end.
They had her kind of walkinginto the woods and it seemed
like a death sequence and Iagreed with her.
I'm like that was a littlerough, but I thought it was a
fairly accurate portrayal.
(17:04):
From my experience.
You know she is smart and funnyand inquisitive, one of the
most curious people I've evermet, and she doesn't like it if
anyone disagrees with her, evenpeople she hires.
So it makes it pretty hard torun a business.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Did you like working for her?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
No, but you know it was very clear that I was in an
impossible role.
So it I mean, I'm not the firstperson to help get myself
through an eating disorder andI'm not the first person to be
fired by Martha Stewart.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So yeah, so you get fired from there.
Was it like mental traumatizingor was it like OK?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
a little, Because, mainly because I didn't know how
long it would take to next toget the next job, and it took, I
don't know, almost a year tolike find the next thing.
Um, no, it wasn't.
It wasn't so traumatizing and I, in hindsight, I shouldn't have
(18:07):
taken the job.
I mean, even through theinterview process, people would
like I remember, like you know,cause you're meeting with the, I
was meeting with the othersenior executives and why, why
do you want to work here, Sarah?
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Are you sure you want to work here?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:22):
So it was an experience.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Well, and you made some comment that the more
successful you got, the moremiserable you were.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Well, and that is not all organizations, but many big
companies, publicly tradedcompanies in particular, even
nonprofits.
You know, the more senior youare, the more political it gets.
You get further away from doingthe thing, making the thing,
providing the service, and thenyou get into the what is the
(18:51):
strategy?
What did we agree to do?
Why didn't that work?
Whose fault is it?
Who gets the budget?
And so the the kind of thebeauty of the thing you're more
removed from, and I also didn'tstart therapy until 40.
(19:14):
So that was in play.
I don't know what it would belike if I went back to a big
quote, unquote, normal job today.
I think I would have a verydifferent experience because I'm
a healthier person emotionally.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Was therapy just a total game changer in your life?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yes, and I kind of I make that noise because it's
like nobody wants to hear aboutmy fucking therapy.
You never know.
But yes, all of the good things, the best things in my life
would not exist today had I notstarted therapy.
A lot you can talk about.
You know serendipity,coincidence, fate.
(19:58):
I'm like no therapy.
Yeah, once you have a healthyrelationship with yourself,
every relationship in your lifegets better.
Yeah, do you still go?
Yes, tuesdays at 11,.
I had to reschedule this week.
Carrie David says hi.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
That's amazing, but it is.
I mean it really.
You know you talk about.
Writing a book is therapeuticand you learn so much about
yourself You're not going tolearn.
If you get a good therapist,you will learn a lot about who
you are and how you operate andhow you can still 12 years and
I'm like, oh, so much to learn.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, it's like I think this is a learning
opportunity.
I'm like, oh my God.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So today you own an art gallery, I do, and so so, so
tell the listener.
So how did that sort ofinterest and love I know you've
got a piece of art, I think,from your mom, was it your mom,
grandma, your grandma, grandmaCameron and kind of like put the
turn the light on for you butlike, how did your life lead you
to going, oh, I want to have aart, I want to own an art
(20:58):
gallery.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
So yes, I talk about in the book.
My grandma Cameron bought me myfirst piece of art original art
when I graduated from DePauwand there was something that
happened in that moment thatjust stayed with me.
So my classmate, matt Wentz,happened to be in the art center
with his mom before theceremony and I was in the art
(21:20):
center to show grandma Cameronthis piece and she was like I
don't, it's abstract and I don'tunderstand it, but if you love
it I will buy it for you.
And she counted out $100 billsto this kid, matt.
It was the first piece of arthe ever sold and I just it stuck
with me, sort of the magic andjoy in that moment, frankly,
(21:41):
like he created something thatmoved me so much that I wanted
to own it and like that that ispretty freaking cool.
So then life happened and Iwent on and it never occurred to
me to try to make a career outof it.
Probably a good thing, it's atough business.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
We'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
So yeah.
So then I just started buyingart that I loved as I could
afford it.
I moved to New York, bought apiece of art for two200.
It's a little abstract calledYankee Stadium Looks like the
crowd Now it hangs in my powderroom would come over to these
(22:27):
apartments in New York.
They would be like how do youhave so much art?
And I would basically say, well, how do you not Like it's
available to all of us.
You just have to.
You know it was a passion.
So then one thing led to another.
I moved from New York to SanFrancisco, came home from San
(22:51):
Francisco to be with mom and Ivowed I didn't work for a full
year.
I needed a break from corporatelife and I didn't know what was
happening with her.
She passed away.
I came home in November of 17.
She passed in February of 18.
And I was like, Sarah, nomatter what, do not work, Get a
full year of to get it off ofyou.
And then moved to Columbus andstarted doing some consulting
(23:14):
and I was like, oh, this feelslike what I was doing before.
I'm making slides, I'm, I'mwriting this feels like a
powerpoint make I don't know.
And and Columbus is amazing.
Like where else, in what othercity can someone overhear you
say?
This is when I was like apop-up gallery, because I still
(23:36):
had the art thing.
I'm like I just need to get itout of my system.
I'll do a pop-up Three months.
And so I was living on HighStreet at the time and someone
from the wood companiesoverheard me talking about it,
sent me an email and said andsomeone from the wood companies
overheard me talking about it,sent me an email and said we
have a space for you.
So I opened the gallery inApril of 19.
(23:59):
Because Columbus enables thingslike that to happen.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
No, it's an incredible city.
It's got to be a grind of abusiness.
Let's cut the shit.
Cut the crap.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Well, here's the deal .
The product itself is entirelysubjective and a luxury good in
essence.
Not luxury by cost, but luxury.
Nobody has to own original art,so it's a rough business.
That said, you don't have tobuy inventory, so a typical
(24:35):
gallery split is 50-50.
You have Daniel Rona paintingsin here.
I represent Daniel, so hebrings the paintings in for a
show.
There's no financial exchange,only if something sells.
So it is easier than someretail businesses from that
(24:56):
standpoint.
Um, but yeah it's, I'm nothaving the best year.
It's a little rough, so we'llsee yeah, I can imagine this
year too.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
With just um everything happening in the
world, people aren't exactlythinking about.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Original art is like the top priority, priority no,
and so we'll see, we're gonnajust have to hustle differently
how do you like?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
how do you do it?
Do you like?
I would think you'd have youknow.
You have your sort of sector oflike clients you get to know
and you're like oh, this wouldlook lovely in your foyer.
You know, I say it just likethat this would be beautiful in
your foyer because there's anaccent with art.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
This would look.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
This would look marvelous in your pool room you
must have this piece and soyou're just kind of like what's
the main?
How do you sell it most of thetime?
Is it just like that?
Or are you like people justwalk like?
How do you?
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Speaker 2 (27:46):
Well, the rhythm for the physical gallery is shows.
So I have a show openingWednesday night.
One of the artists, zach VanHorn.
It's the first time he'sshowing at the gallery and I've
paired him with a woman fromDayton, michelle Bondurant, and
you know the openings usuallyget a ton of people and
(28:08):
typically that's where we willsell the majority of the pieces
that are going to sell.
There are some months that area little bit different.
Um, our entire inventory of allthe artists is up on um, built
on shopify, so you can click andbuy, and so this, you know, for
the next year, I really have tofigure out a way to sort of
(28:31):
unlock the online buying of itall and be less reliant on
Columbus, just for we just haveto have a much wider net, but
it's hard.
Fortunately, I've hired a youngwoman, becca, who is just
phenomenal and that's I'm alsostubborn about that.
(28:52):
I don't want to do it withouther, and there's a cost there.
You know, it's just it'srunning a business, but we'll
see.
I want it to work.
I think it's.
I say like, I love it, I thinkI'm really good at it.
Just have to figure out how tomake more money.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Do you?
Are you 50 50 with online stufftoo?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yeah, you know it's interesting because I have my
best friends, uh, an artist inChicago and there's another
friend of hers that's a reallyum popular artist too and she
does a lot of work for KellyWurstler.
Oh, yes, um, beautiful stuff.
And you know, it's kind of thesame conversation around having
all this inventory and feelinglike blocked and like really
(29:33):
questioning yourself and yourart and trying to figure out how
to market it differently.
Yes, you know, I mean,shannon's been talking about
doing this like online auctionor like how do we figure out how
to get this original art intopeople's hands more?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
yes, and if, and if.
There was here's the deal ifthere was a formula that worked
every time, there would be a lotmore art galleries.
You know it's really it'srelationship business, and we
have some amazing galleries inColumbus Sharon Weiss, michelle
Brandt, Kenny Galleries and ArtAccess and Bexley, like they're.
(30:09):
Just.
If the gallery is not doingwell, it's because I'm not
hustling enough.
I mean, that's the answer, sowe'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Okay, so back to the book and you.
You mentioned that the word joydoesn't even come up until the
end.
When did you say to yourself ohwait, this is chasing joy like
when did that kind of come intoplay for you?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
I mean, it sounds phony baloney when I say this,
because I can't even believe it.
So the tagline for the gallerywhich, again, the gallery opened
in 2019 is art can be a sourceof joy for everyone, and someone
called me a joy broker once,because that's what art is it
like, brings you joy.
And I I you know, I think I'mcreative and I'm a writer and
(30:58):
I'm a branding expert, and solike for the gallery, I was like
, yes, it's about joy, but Inever actually thought that that
is something that I wanted orwas seeking for myself.
And so, through the writing ofthe book, which I started in 20
and finished and published in 24, I was like, oh my god, that,
(31:23):
that feeling, the feeling that Ihad in my body when I'm driving
up to Cleveland after I'd metwith an artist, amy Pleasant I
was like, oh, that's what I'mfeeling, it's joy.
And it was like completelyoverwhelming to realize that.
(31:44):
And so then I was like, oh myGod, that's what I had been
searching for all along, eventhough that's not what I would
have named it.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
And when you, it's Zanesville, right where you,
where you're from, and you so isSan Francisco to New York, to
Zanesville.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
New York, chicago.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
New.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
York, san Francisco, back home.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Ok, yes, so big cities, excitement.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Back to Zanesville and you knew it would be
temporary.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Probably, I thought I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
But but you, you're like, I'm just going to come be,
I'm going to take care of mymom, live with the family for a
year and I give my.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
I gave myself a commitment of a full year and I
just gave this advice to anotherwoman who was taking some time
off.
I'm like you need a full yearto like really regroup.
So yeah, what were the mostmemorable or like special
moments with your mom duringthat time that you look back on,
you're like, wow, in spite ofit all, like her being sick,
(32:40):
like this was well, there, therewere several, but the one that
first popped into my mind, youknow, she, she didn't feel well
obviously, and she wasn, shewasn't eating, and so you become
obsessed, when you're acaregiver, with the eating.
And one morning she woke up andsaid I actually feel hungry,
let's go up to that diner andget breakfast.
(33:03):
So we go to this diner and sheate pancakes with whipped cream
and hash browns and coffee andjuice and like she ate more in
one sitting than I'd seen hereat.
You know, in the previous weekand I was so excited and so
happy for her, I remember I tooka picture and sent it to my
brother and sister.
Like mom's good day, she'seating.
We got in her truck she drove apickup truck for the last 10
(33:28):
years of her life truck for thelast 10 years of her life and we
pull out and like a half mileaway I hear you know her stomach
.
And I'm like oh, oh, oh.
And she, it's so awful.
And she said, sarah, you know,we gotta, we gotta, I get, pull
over, we gotta go.
And I'm like what, where am Isupposed to go?
(33:49):
We're still like four milesfrom the farm.
Do you want to stop at, likethe McCutcheon's?
And she was very private abouther cancer.
And no, just drive faster,drive faster.
I'm like I'm driving as fast asI can, I'm driving as fast as I
can, just hold on, hold on.
And we come around this bend,past Fuller's golf course you
know the roads that I grew updriving on.
She looks over with a veryspecific face and she said
(34:12):
doesn't matter now, and so mysweet mom dying of cancer pooped
her pants and I, and we startedlaughing and crying and we kept
saying so for the rest of herlife, which was short, we saying
doesn't matter now.
And you know, I say in the bookin this scene I watched her get
(34:38):
out of the truck and walk intothe house, which there's a
certain walk that happens whensomething like that happens, and
I just you know I never lovedher more, right?
So yeah more right?
(34:59):
so, yeah, it's.
Those are moments that you haveto find levity in caregiving,
because otherwise it's too muchto bear.
And so we had oh, we had some,we had some good ones and
laughter, even even though youknow, we knew exactly what was
coming, and she also stoppedtreatment.
So she stopped treatment inJanuary, and then you just wait
(35:21):
and you don't know, and that's aparticular kind of space, you
know.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
So yeah, Especially if somebody who wants to, for me
I would think, god, I want tocontrol that.
You can't control any of it.
And so then if you, especiallyif you like, stop taking.
You know you're like okay, thisis now up to just the body,
yeah, the body.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
And you know, I remember I don't know the exact
words in the book, but I, youknow when she decided to stop
treatment and she wasstrong-willed, we weren't going
to convince her otherwise.
And she knew.
And in hindsight I think sheknew before she started the
first treatment.
I think she did the firsttreatment for us.
She said I feel it in my bones,I feel it.
So when she stopped treatmentin January, I called a
(36:10):
palliative care doctor and I waslike, well, what are we looking
at time-wise?
I mean, what a horrific thingto try to predict.
And they were like two weeks totwo months and it was a month.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
And then where did this?
Let's talk about this littlelove affair that sparked
Camillus.
Am I saying it right?
Yes, camillus, so give it.
Yes, camillus, so give it,let's.
Let's just give the viewers alittle spoiler alert on that one
too, that you, just you, foundlove.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
I mean, I am living at the family farm.
My dad had died the year before.
I did not have a job, I did nothave a home, I did not have a
car.
I was living in my childhoodbedroom waiting for my mom to
most likely die.
So it was.
It was not the best time of mylife, carrie, and when you put
(37:01):
it that way, I was like huh.
So my brother, one of his dearfriends and my closest
neighbor's cousin, somebody thatI had known casually over the
years, camillus um, had justgone through a divorce and it's
real sparkly, real charming, andearlier in the year my brother
(37:29):
had said hey, you know, camillusis going through some tough
shit.
You should maybe like, at leastlike flirt with him a little
bit.
I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, feeling real flirty.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Fast forward to November, december, november,
and I was like I just texted him.
I mean I had been out the nightbefore with a close friend from
high school and I drank as muchred wine as I could put into my
body, so you can imagine how Ifelt and I'm driving down the
country road again in mom'spickup truck and then he passes
(38:01):
me in his truck and I was likethat was Camillus, and so I
didn't have his number.
I got his number from mybrother and I texted him and I
just didn't have his number.
I got his number from mybrother and I texted him and I
just I didn't give a shit.
I mean I was like exactly howlong am I going to have to be
home before you ask me out?
(38:21):
It was nine, 30 in the morningand he said I'll pick you up in
15 minutes, which I didn't seethe text, because I was back
down in the holler at the farmcell phones don't always work
and uh, yeah, and so so he showsup.
He shows up, hello, my momadored him, as did my dad, and
(38:46):
uh, he was like, hey.
I was like, hey, I just brushedmy teeth like red wine stains,
you know, a hot mess.
He was like come on, let's gorun some errands.
I need to go buy a mattress.
I was like, okay, that was it.
Anyway, it's just, it's soamazing and I knew by the end of
(39:11):
our lunch and mattress shoppingouting I was like, oh, I like
him and he wanted.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
He was like no, and then he was like no, because he
Just too much going on yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Just he's just gone through a divorce.
Yeah, and he had two kids andjust it, the timing's off.
And I was like, okay.
And then I went back to SanFrancisco to pack up my
apartment there and I was like,what's?
You know, I text him.
I said, hey, I'm flying in fromyou know, I'll be landing in
(39:46):
Columbus.
Do you want to grab a beer?
And we, we went to God, wheredid we go?
I know this?
Someplace at Easton, close tothe airport.
And we sat there, you know,completely sober, and I said
what do you think we should dohere?
And he was like I think weshould go for it.
(40:07):
And I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
You're like, that's what I wanted to hear, Camillus,
yes.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
I changed my voice again.
I was like I'm selling art andtrying to date you.
Now I'm a sex kid.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Now we date.
Hey, Camillus, now we make love.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
So, yeah, that was the most surprising thing of my
lifetime, and so now he lives inPowell.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
He's in Powell, yeah, and you're going to live
together.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
We're talking about it, we'll see.
I've never lived with a man, soyeah, speaking of I mean I just
, turned 53.
I'm old as fuck and I'm like achild.
You are not old as fuck.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
So, Speaking of you said that the longest you'd ever
dated a man was like threemonths.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
I mean, I was not good at dating.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
What do you think was so bad about you and dating?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Well, Carrie, it's called the Velcro effect, which
I have learned Well, Carrie, youlittle bitch.
No, it's the Velcro effect.
This is called trickle-downtherapy for listeners and
viewers.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Especially women.
You know who you are.
If you feel like shit aboutyourself, you only seek out
partners who allow you to keepfeeling like shit about yourself
.
So you date cheaters, you datemen who are unkind to you, you
date men who don't appreciateyou and you keep trying, like a
(41:32):
little puppy dog, to get loveout of the wrong people, and
that's called the velcro effect.
And once you get yourself right, all of a sudden a kind,
beautiful, wonderful man namedcamilla shows up in your life
and you're ready and it's likeoh this is how it goes that's
what that feels like.
(41:52):
That's crazy, not really.
I mean.
It makes it's not all like.
It makes tweety birds and rosesall the time we have our stuff.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
But yeah, I don't think anybody's relationship is.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
When you're in a relationship with another human
being, there's going to beproblems yeah, but that for me,
when I look back at the othermen I had been involved with or
tried to be involved with, thecommon denominator was they
weren't good matches for mebecause I kept chose.
You know, I chose men whoweren't good men for me.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
So how do you do this different now?
How does the self-talk go?
Because I feel like if youlived for so long thinking
you're a piece of shit andsaying all these negative things
to yourself, for so longthinking you're a piece of shit
and saying all these negativethings to yourself, that dies
really hard, even with therapy.
Yeah, patterns are soincredibly hard to change so
when you get something todaywhere it's like knock, knock pos
(42:46):
, yes, you know I basically howdo we do that?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
basically, like, not today, we're not doing that
today, and I kind of say it tomyself and it's a little bit
like that's not how I'm going tospend my time and energy.
And if I hadn't learned toquiet the voice, I wouldn't have
written a book, I wouldn't havean art gallery, I wouldn't have
(43:09):
Camillus, wouldn't havecamillus.
You know for sure the negativeself-talk would have ruined the
relationship because I wouldhave started picking at him.
You know how you can do that.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Feel a little bad about yourself and all of a
sudden you're like picking onhim.
Yeah, yeah, there's probably a.
You know there's a lot of wordfor that yeah, so it's not
totally gone it.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
It's about managing it and having tools to like keep
it in check.
I would say Some days arebetter than others.
Menopause again is really hard,especially for any woman who's
had disordered eating of anysort.
You know, feeling out ofcontrol of your body is a hard
thing.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
How are you managing menopause?
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I started HRT hormone replacement therapy and it's
been a great, great help.
I had a lot of pain, joint pain, especially in my hips, and I
didn't have terrible hot flashesDefinitely brain fog and
(44:17):
there's some of that.
That's just age, so I would saythat my symptoms were not
terrible terrible.
But I started the hormonereplacement therapy and it has,
like, completely aside from I,work out like I don't have any
of the like hip and joint pain.
Oh, did you know there'ssomething called menopause
shoulder.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
I did have that Frozen shoulder.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Yeah, I had frozen shoulder for six months and it's
like I was like what the fuck,Like the shoulder's going to go.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
And now it's fine.
Now it's fine, I mean, but likehormone replacement therapy can
be really helpful.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Yes, really helpful.
And I am working with a womannamed Lucy, I really like at
Central Ohio CompoundingPharmacy, which I do laugh when
you call.
It's like if you are callingabout your pet press one, if
you're calling about HRT, I'mlike great, I call her the HRT
vet.
(45:11):
I'm like what in the hell.
But I have friends who loveMIDI.
I don't know if you've heardabout MIDI.
It's all online.
Anyway, it's just you have toreally advocate for yourself and
find a doctor who listens andhelps.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
So what are you most proud of with this book?
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Oh, my goodness, oh, I'm proud that I finished it
Publishing.
We'll get a drink or coffeewhen you decide to go, because
it is a fucked up industry.
I know I've heard Four millionbooks a year Four million come
out.
So there's a whole thing aboutgetting a deal or not getting a
(45:50):
deal.
The traditional route is to geta deal and me being me, I'm
wildly impatient and I knowmyself, I'm like I'm just going
to publish it myself and I won'tspend too much time on that,
but it's fascinating.
So, yeah, I, you know, I stilllike the gold stars.
I still like it that peoplelove the book.
(46:13):
I have no idea how people wouldrespond to it.
You know, I assume my brotherand sister and Camillus would be
nice because they love me andsome friends would be nice
because they love me.
So you have that first circleof people are going to be like
oh yeah, I'm so proud of you,it's great.
And then you get beyond thatand get some reviews and get
people sending you emails andnotes that, yeah, it has
(46:40):
surpassed any of my expectationsin terms of reader responses.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
So you want to write another one.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yes, yes, I've started something.
It's not like this, it's alittle bit quirkier.
We'll see.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Is it nonfiction?
Yes, can you give us any hints?
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Well, the first line is I am alone in the house of my
body.
How we I my relationship withmy body over the years, thinking
that if I write about it andunderstand it the same way I
(47:20):
wrote about my mom andunderstood my relationship with
my mom, maybe by the time Iwrite the whole thing I'll have
reconciled, I don't know.
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
It's a little weird.
No, I like it, but yeah, you'researching searching like it's
introspective.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Yeah yeah, you're trying to.
I'm trying to answer a question, and the question is why am I
still at age 53?
Why do I still have this bodystuff?
You know?
Speaker 1 (47:44):
so, your body image, yeah, body image, yeah what is
your most vulnerable thing withyour body image?
Like what?
What do you think people see?
Speaker 2 (47:52):
that's so funny.
It's not what I think otherpeople see.
It's just what I see.
Yeah, I don't know.
I just think you havedysmorphia a little bit yeah,
still yeah, and I think I putmyself in like the emotionally
healthy category, but I stillhave the stuff and so that's so
I wrote the first.
I wrote like 5,000 words or soand what I did is I went body
(48:14):
part by body part and like,let's, let's look at that Really
.
And then I did this sounds socrazy.
And then I did a score.
Because I'm analytical, I'mlike, okay, do we really, do you
really hate your body?
And I went through and I scoredeach body part one to five and
I was like, actually, you like awhole lot about your body, but
(48:36):
I had to like say it for myselfand write it down.
Yeah, I don't know what waswhat scored the highest.
Um, oh, my god, I'm not.
You're gonna have to read thebook.
It's so funny, it's I, and Itry to write it with humor
because stuff is funny.
And then I go through the bodyparts and have scenes of things
that have happened, like my bigtoe got stuck in a bike chain.
(49:01):
When I was a little girl at thefarm I was riding on the back
of my brother's yellow bananaseat bike, no shoes, and my big
toe got stuck in a bike chain.
Okay, we are a mile from thehouse.
My sister rides her back, herbike back, to get my mom.
(49:22):
Only in Chandler'sville Ohiowould this happen.
A big pickup truck comes andthis huge man gets out and
breaks the bike chain with hisbare hands and picks me up and
puts me in the truck, the cab ofthe truck where his wife is and
she has, you know the Kleenexbox, not the upright one, you
know the rectangular, flat one.
(49:43):
She grabs all the Kleenex andwraps it around my toe and I
watch the Kleenex go from whiteto red with my toe.
Anyway, nobody cares about mytoe, I do.
But as I was thinking about mybody and body parts, I have all
these memories attached todifferent parts of the body and
(50:04):
it tells a story.
I think it's really interesting.
It doesn't really we'll see,yeah, but it may just be an
essay.
It might just be a big longessay, but you know it's cool
though it's like you long essay.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
It's like everybody goes through their stuff and I
think when you analyze it andyou get into it, something's
going to come out of it.
I think that's awesome.
I personally think your bookwas lovely.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
I think it was really really great, and it feels very
like.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
I don't know big time author shit yeah, we'll see.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Thank you, I'm proud of it.
Um, I think paperback will comeout later this year.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
I love it.
Well, I appreciate you comingon the show and thank you for
having me.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
So nice to be in person.
Oh no, I love it.
It's great, great.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
All right, if you're still out there following your
girl, follow me on YouTube,spotify, apple or wherever you
get your podcasts.
And until next time, go buy thebook the Order of Things by
Sarah Connolly and keep movingbaby.
Hey there you beautiful badass.
Welcome to the Keri Croft Show.
I'm your host, keri Croft,delivering you stories that get
you pumped up and fling like theunstoppable savage that you are
.
So grab your coffee, put onyour game face and let's do this
thing, baby.
Face and let's do this thing,baby.
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Speaker 2 (01:54):
And he was like, but he was like.
But I liked you kind of and I'mlike well, I mean, I thought
you were real handsome andcharming, but I didn't think
that there would be arelationship, right.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
You know that's so great.
Okay, we'll get to that.
We'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Everybody's always like are you still with him?
I'm like, yes, it's shocking.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
And then he lives here he lives in Powell.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
So we're now looking for a house which is like
Together.
Impossible to find a houseright now, oh sure.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, sarah Gormley, welcome to the Keri Croft Show.
Thank you for having me.
You know we're finally heretogether.
Yay, I love talking to peoplewho've actually sat down and
written a book.
It's like one of my dreams tobe able to write a book.
So when someone does it, anddoes it so successfully as you
have, have you started yours.
Yet I mean, yeah, I've got likea mess.
(02:45):
I've got a mess of like thingsin a google doc, but yeah, it's
just that's like such a, it'slike so out of my depth it's not
do it you'll.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
You'll love it what?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
so?
Was it something you alwaysthought about doing?
Or when you met that woman andshe said you should write a book
, was that like the first time.
It like hit you that you shouldwrite a book.
How that all come about.
That's such a good story.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Um, I try to like be humble, but I've always been a
good writer yeah.
I was writing poetry as a kidand in high school and I was a
lit major.
So writing is just somethingthat's like in me and I suppose,
somewhere in the back of themess of the mind I thought maybe
(03:26):
one day I'd like to write abook, but honestly didn't think
I had anything meaningful to say, and never fiction, always
first person narrative, memoir,and so somewhere I thought it
could be a possibility, but Ididn't think I had something to
write about until 2019.
(03:49):
Was the title a struggle?
This was not the original title.
The original title was this Iswhat you Need to Know Pretty
ambiguous, and the new title,the actual title title.
The order of things is still alittle nebulous.
Right, it doesn't look like.
What the hell is that bookabout?
(04:09):
Um, only when I added thesubhead which is a memoir about
chasing joy, did it really cometogether.
And I didn't realize.
I didn't realize that I waschasing joy until I finished
writing the book.
The word joy doesn't evenappear anywhere in the book
until the last chapter.
(04:30):
So anyway, it's, it's a processand you have to do it because
it's you learn so much aboutyourself and it's so convoluted
and it's you know.
You just have to commit and doit and if you do, you will write
a book.
I think everyone should write abook.
I'm like the book pimp.
I'm like do it write a book?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, cause I mean, even if you sell them or you
know like if it's externally,whatever the success is measured
by.
But to your point, I think youwould learn a lot about who you
are and it's like probably areally cool process to go
through internally.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It is and you know parts of it are very painful.
It's a little bit like, youknow, bleeding from the veins on
the page.
It's a little bit of emotionalexcavation maybe.
So you know, and then memory isvery tricky, you think is that
what happened?
(05:23):
Is that what we talked about?
Is that right?
And I don't know it's.
But then fun too.
I had a lot of laughs.
I mean, there was a spoileralert.
Mike came back home to Ohio.
Mom's cancer was back.
Oh, mom cancer was back.
(05:47):
And there's a scene in the bookand it sounds made up where
like we just stood on the porchand yelled fuck at each other at
the top of our lungs becauseyou know it was bad.
But in the writing process Ifound humor because I'm like
that's pretty funny.
Yeah, you know it's pretty funnythat a woman and her adult
(06:09):
daughter just standing on theporch yelling fuck at each other
as loud as they could, but howraw and real, I mean, because
there's really nothing else tosay Exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
You know it's like fuck, fuck, but the way you
wrote it in there too, it's likethe fuck is like this long, you
know, so you can.
You can actually picture youguys having that conversation,
but it's like fuck, fuck.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
You know why.
And so, yes, the writing it.
I've done some pretty coolthings in my life and hope to do
more, but I mean writing thebook and actually committing to
it and doing it.
I'm really proud of it and it'sthe book I wanted to write and
it's the best book I could write, so I'm proud of it.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, and you should be.
It's really good, thank you.
So, going back to what you justsaid about there were really
hard parts.
Looking back on the writingprocess, what were some of the
harder parts for you to reallysit with and write?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Two, the first two things that came up, and I say
this in the book, I'm going toanswer in two ways.
The week she dies and I saylike I've been procrastinating,
I didn't want to write this partbecause I wanted to show
(07:27):
readers what happened and be astruthful as possible and honor
her, because in hindsight now,increasingly, every year that
passes, now, increasingly, everyyear that passes, like she
(07:48):
managed her death so beautifully, and I think you know she did
it for herself, but I think shedid it for us, my brother and
sister and me and to be able todo that as a gift.
You know she was able to die athome at the family farm, her
favorite place on earth.
It was peaceful, home at thefamily farm, her favorite place
(08:09):
on earth.
It was peaceful and she waslucid until the day before, and
so I wanted each day to share ascene or two of what the
experience was like, because forpeople who have gone through it
, there's there's nothing quiteas profound.
I don't know if you've beenthrough it.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I in not in that detail of like being with
someone for that, but yeah, likemy grandma passed and like it's
definitely um, it's a, it's awhole thing, it's a real thing
yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
So so that was hard to write about.
The other thing that was hardto write about was my
relationship with her.
That was complicated andthere's a line in the book and
the relationship between amother and a daughter is no tidy
thing.
It's not and I I wanted againto show that while the
(09:02):
relationship had somecomplexities, it was fueled by
love and care and it took mesome therapy of my own to start
to see her as her own person.
That had nothing to do with meand that's a tip to viewers and
(09:25):
listeners.
That's where the emotionalgrowth is.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
It's hard to get there sometimes.
Yeah, because as a child, everyI think perspective you have on
your parent is attached to youor your lens.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
So when you can see them as just a flawed, scared
human being out there on theirown, doing the best, she can
with what she has.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
So that was hard to write again because I wanted it
to be accurate and show how Ichanged and how my perception of
her changed and how you know wedid the best we could.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Let's go back to your own, like your depression and
kind of this self-loathing stuffthat you feel like you just
always had inside of you.
Can you get like give thelistener a little more?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yes, and, and it's interesting that you say
depression, because I didn'tever name it that.
So, from the time I was alittle girl increasing into
teenage, dumb and youngadulthood, um, I've I think of
it as a cassette tape those donot exist anymore because I'm
old as hell, um but like arunning loop.
(10:42):
Imagine a loop on a film or a.
And it was just a constantinner voice of you're a piece of
shit, you suck, you're not goodenough, you're fat, you're ugly
, you know.
And.
And unlike depression forinstance, it didn't debilitate
(11:04):
me.
I wasn't not getting out of bed, I didn't go inward.
What happened is that theself-loathing was a motivator.
So I became an overachiever andit took me a long time to
(11:24):
untangle Like I was, like Idon't understand, I think, what
the world wants from me.
I thought what my parentswanted from me was to be smart
and skinny and successful, andso I just did those things, and
I don't say it lightly, but itappeared to everybody else that
(11:45):
it was easy for me to accomplishthings and do things.
But I thought that I needed thevoice to motivate me because I
was showing that negative voicethat I named Scott Kennedy, who
was the second grade bully.
So I don't know if that answersyour question, but that's what
(12:06):
it felt like and I didn'trealize all the I mean, you know
, because the world is givingyou the gold stars, right, you
keep getting the raises, youkeep getting the bigger job and
your friends you know I wassmart and funny and they all
liked me.
So it it is, and there are alot of women in particular who
(12:30):
have this.
I've since learned from afterwriting the book.
You know, name a woman in yourhead who you think looks amazing
, who's got it all going on anddig a little deeper, and she
might have some of this not all,but too many women in
(12:50):
particular, I think, do why was?
Speaker 1 (12:52):
where did the skinny thing come from?
From when you were really young?
The?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
skinny thing um.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
You know my mom went on diets, drank tab and fresca
and did atkins, and it's acontrol it was a control thing,
but it wasn't anything anyonesaid to you, it was just more.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
You saw your mom doing the diets, you saw that
she was thin and society said,yeah, and so you just thin is
good, thin is better, and so Iwas like, oh okay, well, let's
go be thin and, frankly, be asthin as possible, because thin
is good yeah, because youmentioned anorexia and that you
were obsessed with being thinand you'd get in the bathtub and
(13:30):
like, look at your hip bonesand you know calories around 16.
And I would say that 16 tosophomore year of college,
(13:57):
junior year of college, therewas stuff, um, and and I'm glad
(14:18):
you brought this up because it'sone of the things that I'm very
sensitive about.
So the way I handled it was bymyself, because I knew I had a
problem and I decided that Ican't be a woman who has an
(14:41):
eating disorder, because thatdoesn't line up with being smart
, skinny and successful.
You can be skinny, but youcan't have an eating disorder,
because people who have aneating disorder have a disorder
and I couldn't do that Now, doesthat make sense to anyone but
me?
Probably not.
A lot of people need help.
(15:03):
A lot of people need a lot oftherapy.
A lot of people need help.
A lot of people need a lot oftherapy.
A lot of people need clinicswith professionals, and so I am
not suggesting that other peoplecan help themselves with
disordered eating withoutexternal help, and so I was
sensitive to that in the book.
Again, I wanted to be astruthful as possible, but that's
(15:25):
, you know.
I still have some stuff.
You know now I'm into themenopausal stuff, so that's
super fun.
There's always stuff.
There's always stuff.
So I mean, I'm not walkingaround in a bikini celebrating
my body every day, let's beclear, right, right.
(15:46):
But I have a much better handleon what health means.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah, so you.
So you had it.
You dabbled, which we have.
People have, like they'vedabbled in, um, you know,
binging and purging, and like.
It doesn't mean you'renecessarily going to need to go
into the hospital and needintervention.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Sometimes people can work themselves through phases
of things yes, so it's kind ofso I had a good four to five
years committed to beingstarving myself, okay, and then
you kind of like I just evolvedout of it.
Yeah, evolved out of it yeah,which I'm.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
You're not the only one that's done, that's yeah and
so you were really successfulprofessionally well relatively.
I mean I think, and then youget fired from Martha Stewart.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Oh, yes, I want to know?
Speaker 1 (16:23):
did you know?
Know her?
Yes.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
So you like know her.
If she saw me today, she wouldpretend like she didn't know me
and she would be like I don'teven know who.
That is Probably, but it's okay.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
But she knows you.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
She knows me.
We had some funny times.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
What did you think about her documentary?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
You know what I thought?
The documentary was really welldone.
I read her complaint about it,which was at the end.
They had her kind of walkinginto the woods and it seemed
like a death sequence and Iagreed with her.
I'm like that was a littlerough, but I thought it was a
fairly accurate portrayal.
(17:04):
From my experience.
You know she is smart and funnyand inquisitive, one of the
most curious people I've evermet, and she doesn't like it if
anyone disagrees with her, evenpeople she hires.
So it makes it pretty hard torun a business.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Did you like working for her?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
No, but you know it was very clear that I was in an
impossible role.
So it I mean, I'm not the firstperson to help get myself
through an eating disorder andI'm not the first person to be
fired by Martha Stewart.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So yeah, so you get fired from there.
Was it like mental traumatizingor was it like OK?
Speaker 2 (17:45):
a little, Because, mainly because I didn't know how
long it would take to next toget the next job, and it took, I
don't know, almost a year tolike find the next thing.
Um, no, it wasn't.
It wasn't so traumatizing and I, in hindsight, I shouldn't have
(18:07):
taken the job.
I mean, even through theinterview process, people would
like I remember, like you know,cause you're meeting with the, I
was meeting with the othersenior executives and why, why
do you want to work here, Sarah?
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Are you sure you want to work here?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:22):
So it was an experience.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Well, and you made some comment that the more
successful you got, the moremiserable you were.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Well, and that is not all organizations, but many big
companies, publicly tradedcompanies in particular, even
nonprofits.
You know, the more senior youare, the more political it gets.
You get further away from doingthe thing, making the thing,
providing the service, and thenyou get into the what is the
(18:51):
strategy?
What did we agree to do?
Why didn't that work?
Whose fault is it?
Who gets the budget?
And so the the kind of thebeauty of the thing you're more
removed from, and I also didn'tstart therapy until 40.
(19:14):
So that was in play.
I don't know what it would belike if I went back to a big
quote, unquote, normal job today.
I think I would have a verydifferent experience because I'm
a healthier person emotionally.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Was therapy just a total game changer in your life?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yes, and I kind of I make that noise because it's
like nobody wants to hear aboutmy fucking therapy.
You never know.
But yes, all of the good things, the best things in my life
would not exist today had I notstarted therapy.
A lot you can talk about.
You know serendipity,coincidence, fate.
(19:58):
I'm like no therapy.
Yeah, once you have a healthyrelationship with yourself,
every relationship in your lifegets better.
Yeah, do you still go?
Yes, tuesdays at 11,.
I had to reschedule this week.
Carrie David says hi.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
That's amazing, but it is.
I mean it really.
You know you talk about.
Writing a book is therapeuticand you learn so much about
yourself You're not going tolearn.
If you get a good therapist,you will learn a lot about who
you are and how you operate andhow you can still 12 years and
I'm like, oh, so much to learn.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, it's like I think this is a learning
opportunity.
I'm like, oh my God.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
So today you own an art gallery, I do, and so so, so
tell the listener.
So how did that sort ofinterest and love I know you've
got a piece of art, I think,from your mom, was it your mom,
grandma, your grandma, grandmaCameron and kind of like put the
turn the light on for you butlike, how did your life lead you
to going, oh, I want to have aart, I want to own an art
(20:58):
gallery.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
So yes, I talk about in the book.
My grandma Cameron bought me myfirst piece of art original art
when I graduated from DePauwand there was something that
happened in that moment thatjust stayed with me.
So my classmate, matt Wentz,happened to be in the art center
with his mom before theceremony and I was in the art
(21:20):
center to show grandma Cameronthis piece and she was like I
don't, it's abstract and I don'tunderstand it, but if you love
it I will buy it for you.
And she counted out $100 billsto this kid, matt.
It was the first piece of arthe ever sold and I just it stuck
with me, sort of the magic andjoy in that moment, frankly,
(21:41):
like he created something thatmoved me so much that I wanted
to own it and like that that ispretty freaking cool.
So then life happened and Iwent on and it never occurred to
me to try to make a career outof it.
Probably a good thing, it's atough business.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
We'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
So yeah.
So then I just started buyingart that I loved as I could
afford it.
I moved to New York, bought apiece of art for two200.
It's a little abstract calledYankee Stadium Looks like the
crowd Now it hangs in my powderroom would come over to these
(22:27):
apartments in New York.
They would be like how do youhave so much art?
And I would basically say, well, how do you not Like it's
available to all of us.
You just have to.
You know it was a passion.
So then one thing led to another.
I moved from New York to SanFrancisco, came home from San
(22:51):
Francisco to be with mom and Ivowed I didn't work for a full
year.
I needed a break from corporatelife and I didn't know what was
happening with her.
She passed away.
I came home in November of 17.
She passed in February of 18.
And I was like, Sarah, nomatter what, do not work, Get a
full year of to get it off ofyou.
And then moved to Columbus andstarted doing some consulting
(23:14):
and I was like, oh, this feelslike what I was doing before.
I'm making slides, I'm, I'mwriting this feels like a
powerpoint make I don't know.
And and Columbus is amazing.
Like where else, in what othercity can someone overhear you
say?
This is when I was like apop-up gallery, because I still
(23:36):
had the art thing.
I'm like I just need to get itout of my system.
I'll do a pop-up Three months.
And so I was living on HighStreet at the time and someone
from the wood companiesoverheard me talking about it,
sent me an email and said andsomeone from the wood companies
overheard me talking about it,sent me an email and said we
have a space for you.
So I opened the gallery inApril of 19.
(23:59):
Because Columbus enables thingslike that to happen.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
No, it's an incredible city.
It's got to be a grind of abusiness.
Let's cut the shit.
Cut the crap.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Well, here's the deal .
The product itself is entirelysubjective and a luxury good in
essence.
Not luxury by cost, but luxury.
Nobody has to own original art,so it's a rough business.
That said, you don't have tobuy inventory, so a typical
(24:35):
gallery split is 50-50.
You have Daniel Rona paintingsin here.
I represent Daniel, so hebrings the paintings in for a
show.
There's no financial exchange,only if something sells.
So it is easier than someretail businesses from that
(24:56):
standpoint.
Um, but yeah it's, I'm nothaving the best year.
It's a little rough, so we'llsee yeah, I can imagine this
year too.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
With just um everything happening in the
world, people aren't exactlythinking about.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Original art is like the top priority, priority no,
and so we'll see, we're gonnajust have to hustle differently
how do you like?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
how do you do it?
Do you like?
I would think you'd have youknow.
You have your sort of sector oflike clients you get to know
and you're like oh, this wouldlook lovely in your foyer.
You know, I say it just likethat this would be beautiful in
your foyer because there's anaccent with art.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
This would look.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
This would look marvelous in your pool room you
must have this piece and soyou're just kind of like what's
the main?
How do you sell it most of thetime?
Is it just like that?
Or are you like people justwalk like?
How do you?
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Speaker 2 (27:46):
Well, the rhythm for the physical gallery is shows.
So I have a show openingWednesday night.
One of the artists, zach VanHorn.
It's the first time he'sshowing at the gallery and I've
paired him with a woman fromDayton, michelle Bondurant, and
you know the openings usuallyget a ton of people and
(28:08):
typically that's where we willsell the majority of the pieces
that are going to sell.
There are some months that area little bit different.
Um, our entire inventory of allthe artists is up on um, built
on shopify, so you can click andbuy, and so this, you know, for
the next year, I really have tofigure out a way to sort of
(28:31):
unlock the online buying of itall and be less reliant on
Columbus, just for we just haveto have a much wider net, but
it's hard.
Fortunately, I've hired a youngwoman, becca, who is just
phenomenal and that's I'm alsostubborn about that.
(28:52):
I don't want to do it withouther, and there's a cost there.
You know, it's just it'srunning a business, but we'll
see.
I want it to work.
I think it's.
I say like, I love it, I thinkI'm really good at it.
Just have to figure out how tomake more money.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Do you?
Are you 50 50 with online stufftoo?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yeah, you know it's interesting because I have my
best friends, uh, an artist inChicago and there's another
friend of hers that's a reallyum popular artist too and she
does a lot of work for KellyWurstler.
Oh, yes, um, beautiful stuff.
And you know, it's kind of thesame conversation around having
all this inventory and feelinglike blocked and like really
(29:33):
questioning yourself and yourart and trying to figure out how
to market it differently.
Yes, you know, I mean,shannon's been talking about
doing this like online auctionor like how do we figure out how
to get this original art intopeople's hands more?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
yes, and if, and if.
There was here's the deal ifthere was a formula that worked
every time, there would be a lotmore art galleries.
You know it's really it'srelationship business, and we
have some amazing galleries inColumbus Sharon Weiss, michelle
Brandt, Kenny Galleries and ArtAccess and Bexley, like they're.
(30:09):
Just.
If the gallery is not doingwell, it's because I'm not
hustling enough.
I mean, that's the answer, sowe'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Okay, so back to the book and you.
You mentioned that the word joydoesn't even come up until the
end.
When did you say to yourself ohwait, this is chasing joy like
when did that kind of come intoplay for you?
Speaker 2 (30:32):
I mean, it sounds phony baloney when I say this,
because I can't even believe it.
So the tagline for the gallerywhich, again, the gallery opened
in 2019 is art can be a sourceof joy for everyone, and someone
called me a joy broker once,because that's what art is it
like, brings you joy.
And I I you know, I think I'mcreative and I'm a writer and
(30:58):
I'm a branding expert, and solike for the gallery, I was like
, yes, it's about joy, but Inever actually thought that that
is something that I wanted orwas seeking for myself.
And so, through the writing ofthe book, which I started in 20
and finished and published in 24, I was like, oh my god, that,
(31:23):
that feeling, the feeling that Ihad in my body when I'm driving
up to Cleveland after I'd metwith an artist, amy Pleasant I
was like, oh, that's what I'mfeeling, it's joy.
And it was like completelyoverwhelming to realize that.
(31:44):
And so then I was like, oh myGod, that's what I had been
searching for all along, eventhough that's not what I would
have named it.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
And when you, it's Zanesville, right where you,
where you're from, and you so isSan Francisco to New York, to
Zanesville.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
New York, chicago.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
New.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
York, san Francisco, back home.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Ok, yes, so big cities, excitement.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Back to Zanesville and you knew it would be
temporary.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Probably, I thought I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
But but you, you're like, I'm just going to come be,
I'm going to take care of mymom, live with the family for a
year and I give my.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
I gave myself a commitment of a full year and I
just gave this advice to anotherwoman who was taking some time
off.
I'm like you need a full yearto like really regroup.
So yeah, what were the mostmemorable or like special
moments with your mom duringthat time that you look back on,
you're like, wow, in spite ofit all, like her being sick,
(32:40):
like this was well, there, therewere several, but the one that
first popped into my mind, youknow, she, she didn't feel well
obviously, and she wasn, shewasn't eating, and so you become
obsessed, when you're acaregiver, with the eating.
And one morning she woke up andsaid I actually feel hungry,
let's go up to that diner andget breakfast.
(33:03):
So we go to this diner and sheate pancakes with whipped cream
and hash browns and coffee andjuice and like she ate more in
one sitting than I'd seen hereat.
You know, in the previous weekand I was so excited and so
happy for her, I remember I tooka picture and sent it to my
brother and sister.
Like mom's good day, she'seating.
We got in her truck she drove apickup truck for the last 10
(33:28):
years of her life truck for thelast 10 years of her life and we
pull out and like a half mileaway I hear you know her stomach
.
And I'm like oh, oh, oh.
And she, it's so awful.
And she said, sarah, you know,we gotta, we gotta, I get, pull
over, we gotta go.
And I'm like what, where am Isupposed to go?
(33:49):
We're still like four milesfrom the farm.
Do you want to stop at, likethe McCutcheon's?
And she was very private abouther cancer.
And no, just drive faster,drive faster.
I'm like I'm driving as fast asI can, I'm driving as fast as I
can, just hold on, hold on.
And we come around this bend,past Fuller's golf course you
know the roads that I grew updriving on.
She looks over with a veryspecific face and she said
(34:12):
doesn't matter now, and so mysweet mom dying of cancer pooped
her pants and I, and we startedlaughing and crying and we kept
saying so for the rest of herlife, which was short, we saying
doesn't matter now.
And you know, I say in the bookin this scene I watched her get
(34:38):
out of the truck and walk intothe house, which there's a
certain walk that happens whensomething like that happens, and
I just you know I never lovedher more, right?
So yeah more right?
(34:59):
so, yeah, it's.
Those are moments that you haveto find levity in caregiving,
because otherwise it's too muchto bear.
And so we had oh, we had some,we had some good ones and
laughter, even even though youknow, we knew exactly what was
coming, and she also stoppedtreatment.
So she stopped treatment inJanuary, and then you just wait
(35:21):
and you don't know, and that's aparticular kind of space, you
know.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
So yeah, Especially if somebody who wants to, for me
I would think, god, I want tocontrol that.
You can't control any of it.
And so then if you, especiallyif you like, stop taking.
You know you're like okay, thisis now up to just the body,
yeah, the body.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
And you know, I remember I don't know the exact
words in the book, but I, youknow when she decided to stop
treatment and she wasstrong-willed, we weren't going
to convince her otherwise.
And she knew.
And in hindsight I think sheknew before she started the
first treatment.
I think she did the firsttreatment for us.
She said I feel it in my bones,I feel it.
So when she stopped treatmentin January, I called a
(36:10):
palliative care doctor and I waslike, well, what are we looking
at time-wise?
I mean, what a horrific thingto try to predict.
And they were like two weeks totwo months and it was a month.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
And then where did this?
Let's talk about this littlelove affair that sparked
Camillus.
Am I saying it right?
Yes, camillus, so give it.
Yes, camillus, so give it,let's.
Let's just give the viewers alittle spoiler alert on that one
too, that you, just you, foundlove.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
I mean, I am living at the family farm.
My dad had died the year before.
I did not have a job, I did nothave a home, I did not have a
car.
I was living in my childhoodbedroom waiting for my mom to
most likely die.
So it was.
It was not the best time of mylife, carrie, and when you put
(37:01):
it that way, I was like huh.
So my brother, one of his dearfriends and my closest
neighbor's cousin, somebody thatI had known casually over the
years, camillus um, had justgone through a divorce and it's
real sparkly, real charming, andearlier in the year my brother
(37:29):
had said hey, you know, camillusis going through some tough
shit.
You should maybe like, at leastlike flirt with him a little
bit.
I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, feeling real flirty.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Fast forward to November, december, november,
and I was like I just texted him.
I mean I had been out the nightbefore with a close friend from
high school and I drank as muchred wine as I could put into my
body, so you can imagine how Ifelt and I'm driving down the
country road again in mom'spickup truck and then he passes
(38:01):
me in his truck and I was likethat was Camillus, and so I
didn't have his number.
I got his number from mybrother and I texted him and I
just didn't have his number.
I got his number from mybrother and I texted him and I
just I didn't give a shit.
I mean I was like exactly howlong am I going to have to be
home before you ask me out?
(38:21):
It was nine, 30 in the morningand he said I'll pick you up in
15 minutes, which I didn't seethe text, because I was back
down in the holler at the farmcell phones don't always work
and uh, yeah, and so so he showsup.
He shows up, hello, my momadored him, as did my dad, and
(38:46):
uh, he was like, hey.
I was like, hey, I just brushedmy teeth like red wine stains,
you know, a hot mess.
He was like come on, let's gorun some errands.
I need to go buy a mattress.
I was like, okay, that was it.
Anyway, it's just, it's soamazing and I knew by the end of
(39:11):
our lunch and mattress shoppingouting I was like, oh, I like
him and he wanted.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
He was like no, and then he was like no, because he
Just too much going on yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Just he's just gone through a divorce.
Yeah, and he had two kids andjust it, the timing's off.
And I was like, okay.
And then I went back to SanFrancisco to pack up my
apartment there and I was like,what's?
You know, I text him.
I said, hey, I'm flying in fromyou know, I'll be landing in
(39:46):
Columbus.
Do you want to grab a beer?
And we, we went to God, wheredid we go?
I know this?
Someplace at Easton, close tothe airport.
And we sat there, you know,completely sober, and I said
what do you think we should dohere?
And he was like I think weshould go for it.
(40:07):
And I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
You're like, that's what I wanted to hear, Camillus,
yes.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
I changed my voice again.
I was like I'm selling art andtrying to date you.
Now I'm a sex kid.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Now we date.
Hey, Camillus, now we make love.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
So, yeah, that was the most surprising thing of my
lifetime, and so now he lives inPowell.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
He's in Powell, yeah, and you're going to live
together.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
We're talking about it, we'll see.
I've never lived with a man, soyeah, speaking of I mean I just
, turned 53.
I'm old as fuck and I'm like achild.
You are not old as fuck.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
So, Speaking of you said that the longest you'd ever
dated a man was like threemonths.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
I mean, I was not good at dating.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
What do you think was so bad about you and dating?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Well, Carrie, it's called the Velcro effect, which
I have learned Well, Carrie, youlittle bitch.
No, it's the Velcro effect.
This is called trickle-downtherapy for listeners and
viewers.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Especially women.
You know who you are.
If you feel like shit aboutyourself, you only seek out
partners who allow you to keepfeeling like shit about yourself
.
So you date cheaters, you datemen who are unkind to you, you
date men who don't appreciateyou and you keep trying, like a
(41:32):
little puppy dog, to get loveout of the wrong people, and
that's called the velcro effect.
And once you get yourself right, all of a sudden a kind,
beautiful, wonderful man namedcamilla shows up in your life
and you're ready and it's likeoh this is how it goes that's
what that feels like.
(41:52):
That's crazy, not really.
I mean.
It makes it's not all like.
It makes tweety birds and rosesall the time we have our stuff.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
But yeah, I don't think anybody's relationship is.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
When you're in a relationship with another human
being, there's going to beproblems yeah, but that for me,
when I look back at the othermen I had been involved with or
tried to be involved with, thecommon denominator was they
weren't good matches for mebecause I kept chose.
You know, I chose men whoweren't good men for me.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
So how do you do this different now?
How does the self-talk go?
Because I feel like if youlived for so long thinking
you're a piece of shit andsaying all these negative things
to yourself, for so longthinking you're a piece of shit
and saying all these negativethings to yourself, that dies
really hard, even with therapy.
Yeah, patterns are soincredibly hard to change so
when you get something todaywhere it's like knock, knock pos
(42:46):
, yes, you know I basically howdo we do that?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
basically, like, not today, we're not doing that
today, and I kind of say it tomyself and it's a little bit
like that's not how I'm going tospend my time and energy.
And if I hadn't learned toquiet the voice, I wouldn't have
written a book, I wouldn't havean art gallery, I wouldn't have
(43:09):
Camillus, wouldn't havecamillus.
You know for sure the negativeself-talk would have ruined the
relationship because I wouldhave started picking at him.
You know how you can do that.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Feel a little bad about yourself and all of a
sudden you're like picking onhim.
Yeah, yeah, there's probably a.
You know there's a lot of wordfor that yeah, so it's not
totally gone it.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
It's about managing it and having tools to like keep
it in check.
I would say Some days arebetter than others.
Menopause again is really hard,especially for any woman who's
had disordered eating of anysort.
You know, feeling out ofcontrol of your body is a hard
thing.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
How are you managing menopause?
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I started HRT hormone replacement therapy and it's
been a great, great help.
I had a lot of pain, joint pain, especially in my hips, and I
didn't have terrible hot flashesDefinitely brain fog and
(44:17):
there's some of that.
That's just age, so I would saythat my symptoms were not
terrible terrible.
But I started the hormonereplacement therapy and it has,
like, completely aside from I,work out like I don't have any
of the like hip and joint pain.
Oh, did you know there'ssomething called menopause
shoulder.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
I did have that Frozen shoulder.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Yeah, I had frozen shoulder for six months and it's
like I was like what the fuck,Like the shoulder's going to go.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
And now it's fine.
Now it's fine, I mean, but likehormone replacement therapy can
be really helpful.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Yes, really helpful.
And I am working with a womannamed Lucy, I really like at
Central Ohio CompoundingPharmacy, which I do laugh when
you call.
It's like if you are callingabout your pet press one, if
you're calling about HRT, I'mlike great, I call her the HRT
vet.
(45:11):
I'm like what in the hell.
But I have friends who loveMIDI.
I don't know if you've heardabout MIDI.
It's all online.
Anyway, it's just you have toreally advocate for yourself and
find a doctor who listens andhelps.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
So what are you most proud of with this book?
Speaker 2 (45:29):
Oh, my goodness, oh, I'm proud that I finished it
Publishing.
We'll get a drink or coffeewhen you decide to go, because
it is a fucked up industry.
I know I've heard Four millionbooks a year Four million come
out.
So there's a whole thing aboutgetting a deal or not getting a
(45:50):
deal.
The traditional route is to geta deal and me being me, I'm
wildly impatient and I knowmyself, I'm like I'm just going
to publish it myself and I won'tspend too much time on that,
but it's fascinating.
So, yeah, I, you know, I stilllike the gold stars.
I still like it that peoplelove the book.
(46:13):
I have no idea how people wouldrespond to it.
You know, I assume my brotherand sister and Camillus would be
nice because they love me andsome friends would be nice
because they love me.
So you have that first circleof people are going to be like
oh yeah, I'm so proud of you,it's great.
And then you get beyond thatand get some reviews and get
people sending you emails andnotes that, yeah, it has
(46:40):
surpassed any of my expectationsin terms of reader responses.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
So you want to write another one.
Speaker 2 (46:47):
Yes, yes, I've started something.
It's not like this, it's alittle bit quirkier.
We'll see.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Is it nonfiction?
Yes, can you give us any hints?
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Well, the first line is I am alone in the house of my
body.
How we I my relationship withmy body over the years, thinking
that if I write about it andunderstand it the same way I
(47:20):
wrote about my mom andunderstood my relationship with
my mom, maybe by the time Iwrite the whole thing I'll have
reconciled, I don't know.
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
It's a little weird.
No, I like it, but yeah, you'researching searching like it's
introspective.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Yeah yeah, you're trying to.
I'm trying to answer a question, and the question is why am I
still at age 53?
Why do I still have this bodystuff?
You know?
Speaker 1 (47:44):
so, your body image, yeah, body image, yeah what is
your most vulnerable thing withyour body image?
Like what?
What do you think people see?
Speaker 2 (47:52):
that's so funny.
It's not what I think otherpeople see.
It's just what I see.
Yeah, I don't know.
I just think you havedysmorphia a little bit yeah,
still yeah, and I think I putmyself in like the emotionally
healthy category, but I stillhave the stuff and so that's so
I wrote the first.
I wrote like 5,000 words or soand what I did is I went body
(48:14):
part by body part and like,let's, let's look at that Really
.
And then I did this sounds socrazy.
And then I did a score.
Because I'm analytical, I'mlike, okay, do we really, do you
really hate your body?
And I went through and I scoredeach body part one to five and
I was like, actually, you like awhole lot about your body, but
(48:36):
I had to like say it for myselfand write it down.
Yeah, I don't know what waswhat scored the highest.
Um, oh, my god, I'm not.
You're gonna have to read thebook.
It's so funny, it's I, and Itry to write it with humor
because stuff is funny.
And then I go through the bodyparts and have scenes of things
that have happened, like my bigtoe got stuck in a bike chain.
(49:01):
When I was a little girl at thefarm I was riding on the back
of my brother's yellow bananaseat bike, no shoes, and my big
toe got stuck in a bike chain.
Okay, we are a mile from thehouse.
My sister rides her back, herbike back, to get my mom.
(49:22):
Only in Chandler'sville Ohiowould this happen.
A big pickup truck comes andthis huge man gets out and
breaks the bike chain with hisbare hands and picks me up and
puts me in the truck, the cab ofthe truck where his wife is and
she has, you know the Kleenexbox, not the upright one, you
know the rectangular, flat one.
(49:43):
She grabs all the Kleenex andwraps it around my toe and I
watch the Kleenex go from whiteto red with my toe.
Anyway, nobody cares about mytoe, I do.
But as I was thinking about mybody and body parts, I have all
these memories attached todifferent parts of the body and
(50:04):
it tells a story.
I think it's really interesting.
It doesn't really we'll see,yeah, but it may just be an
essay.
It might just be a big longessay, but you know it's cool
though it's like you long essay.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
It's like everybody goes through their stuff and I
think when you analyze it andyou get into it, something's
going to come out of it.
I think that's awesome.
I personally think your bookwas lovely.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
I think it was really really great, and it feels very
like.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
I don't know big time author shit yeah, we'll see.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
Thank you, I'm proud of it.
Um, I think paperback will comeout later this year.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
I love it.
Well, I appreciate you comingon the show and thank you for
having me.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
So nice to be in person.
Oh no, I love it.
It's great, great.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
All right, if you're still out there following your
girl, follow me on YouTube,spotify, apple or wherever you
get your podcasts.
And until next time, go buy thebook the Order of Things by
Sarah Connolly and keep movingbaby.
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