June 13, 2025 • 45 mins
I’ve been "bossy" the moment I popped out of the womb.
Loud. Confident. Opinionated.
And I'm lucky. Because somewhere along the way, I realized—none of that was actually a bad thing. Being bold and self-assured shouldn’t be something we’re taught to tone down. It should be something we protect fiercely.
That’s why this week’s episode with Dr. Lisa Hinkelman hit me so damn hard.
Dr. Lisa Hinkelman is the founder of ROX (Ruling Our eXperiences), a nonprofit that’s teaching girls how to take up space in a world that constantly asks them to shrink. Lisa and I dive deep into what it means to raise confident daughters when confidence is statistically tanking between the ages of 10 and 14—and doesn’t bounce back for most women until our mid-forties. We talk about “bossy” labels, girl drama, ghosting, why confrontation isn’t a dirty word, and what it looks like to finally unlearn being the nice girl.
If you’ve ever walked through the world feeling like you were too much—too loud, too strong, too opinionated—or if you’re raising a daughter who’s starting to dim her light to fit in, this episode is required listening.
🎯 Want to bring ROX to your daughter’s school or support the movement?
Here’s where to go:
👉 rulingourexperiences.org
👉 The Girls' Index Report (Read the stats—they’ll stop you in your tracks.)
👉 Shop ROX gear (Yes, I’m getting the “Bossy ➡ Leader” tee.)
Let’s raise the next generation to take up space—with confidence, clarity, and zero apologies.
Until next time—stay wild. Stay loud. And call the next man you meet bossy just for fun. 💅
#TheKeriCroftShow #DrLisaHinkelman #ROXGirls #ConfidenceInGirls #BigBossEnergy #StopCallingGirlsBossy #GirlhoodUnfiltered #RaisingDaughters #UnlearnNice
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey there you beautiful badass.
Welcome to the Keri Croft Show.
I'm your host, keri Croft,delivering you stories that get
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All right, lisa Hinkleman,welcome to the Keri Croft Show.
Thank you, you are.
Just if you could see what I'mseeing right now in terms of how
well you go with like thebackdrop.
It's almost like I mean, youcouldn't put it together any
(01:30):
better.
I love it.
It's so good.
It's so good to finally meetyou.
Good to meet you, too.
Jump right into this because Ilove the fact that you have a
nonprofit for girls that helpsbuild confidence and teach them
how to live in the world in amore, I guess, just confident
(01:51):
way.
Right, and I was looking atyour website and looking at
everything and I'm just I couldtalk to you probably for hours
about this.
What got you into this specificthing?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, I think most of us as girls have experiences
when we're growing up, thatshape who we become right, and
that could.
Those experiences can make usfeel better about ourselves or
worse about ourselves.
They can make us feelcomfortable in our own skin or
not, and I think I was one ofthose girls that was a tomboy at
(02:28):
that time.
That's what that's what I wascalled during that time, cause I
was athletic and loud and I hitpuberty early, so I was like
bigger than all the other girlsin my class and I had two older
brothers, so I was always likelooking for a fight or something
, you know, and I just I movedto a new school fifth, going
into sixth grade, and I justfelt like I I didn't fit in, I
(02:51):
didn't have any friends, I lookdifferent than people, the
things I liked were differentthan the other girls, and it was
just always this like trying tofind myself and yet not wanting
to make myself smaller, andthat navigation was tricky for
me and I felt like I didn'treally find my people until much
(03:16):
later in life, meaning women,friends, girlfriends, people who
I could trust.
That that would be my networkand once I did, I realized what
I had missed along the way.
So many years of feeling likenobody gets me, nobody
understands me.
I'm the only one I don't.
(03:37):
Girls are too much drama.
I just rather hang out with theguys because there's they're
just easier to get along withand and so so I think that was
like part of the really likecore base of this work.
But I became a counselor in mycareer and, um, in that work
it's really been centered aroundgirls and women and the sense
(03:59):
that when we go throughexperiences in our life,
especially as young people, theyshape who we become as grownups
.
And if those experiences includea lot of negative reinforcement
, include a lot of pressure tomake yourself smaller or
different, include a lot of theinternalization of what's wrong
(04:20):
with you and what's not okaywith you, we keep that and we
change to become accepted byothers, and for many girls and
women we change in ways that areharmful, that don't help us
actualize our full potentials.
So I think it was a matter of,like personal experiences
alongside professionalexperiences that made me think
(04:44):
maybe we could do something forgirls at an earlier stage of
their life.
So they're not the women thatI'm seeing in counseling, but
they're the girls who we cangive the skills and the
competencies to, to have theconversations early, to really
start to shift theirtrajectories, because we're
shifting their perceptions ofthemselves, what's possible, who
they can become at the timewhere their self-confidence is
(05:09):
most malleable.
And that was some of the earlyintegration of the thinking
around rocks and rocks was born.
That's when rocks was born.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Was rocks born before your actual daughter was born,
oh well before.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Okay, so I yes, so I was a professor at Ohio State in
2006.
I I had actually finished myPhD at age 26 and started a
career early in academia and theinitial study and the initial
(05:43):
work of ROCS the first ROCSprogram started in 2006.
And we had 57 girls whoparticipated in that first
program in Columbus City Schools, and I would train my graduate
students to implement thecurriculum that we had been
developing and to test and pilotit and to see how girls were
growing and changing andevolving.
(06:04):
And we were like this isworking, this is actually
working, and and so then we keptusing that data to refine and
enhance and improve and increasethe, the efficacy of the
program.
And then my students would gograduate and say, hey, dr
Hinkleman, can I keep runningROX?
And I'm like, oh for sure, likejust keep, let's just keep
(06:25):
doing this, because it's likeyou love it, the girls love it,
it's making an impact.
And then, after five years ofkind of this very organic growth
, in 2011, I was like I thinkthis could be something, and
that was the year that ROXbecame a nonprofit and so we
(06:46):
started scaling the work,building out a team, keeping the
model where we train andlicense school counselors and
social workers and educators,and then they take our 20-week
curriculum back to their schoolsand they run it in small groups
with girls.
And so at this point, so thatyear one, 2006, we had 57 girls.
This year we had 8,900 girlsacross 44 states and 500 schools
(07:12):
that participated in ROCS.
So it's been an evolution, andso what's so interesting and
I'll get back to the questionthat you asked is I have done
this work now for almost 20years and I didn't have a
daughter until 2020.
So that has been so amazing,terrifying.
(07:41):
Such a gift alongsidetremendous pressure cause.
I feel like people are going tobe like, ooh, hey, expert on
girls, let's see how yourdaughter turns out.
What's the Hinkleman's daughtergoing to be like, you know?
So I feel that, um, thatintensity, and I'm just such,
it's such a treasure to um havea daughter.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I'm sure, and isn't that just so interesting that
the story was written, that youwould end up with a little girl,
irene.
Irene, how old is she now?
She's four.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So she's four.
She'll be five here in a couplemonths.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Is she like a hard charger, like you, like her mama
?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
She's a wild woman.
Good, she's an uncontrollableforce of nature.
Good, and I love wild woman.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Good, she's, uh good, uncontrollable force of nature
good and I love every minute ofit.
Okay so, and I love everyminute of it.
You'll say that again, and ifyou see me on my phone, that's
why I'm taking photos of you oh,that's or um b-roll video.
It's not because I'm okay oninstagram and then say and I
love every minute of it.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
And I love every minute of it.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Okay.
So, parents of girls, if yourears aren't already perked up,
this is a very importantconversation you should be
listening to because you have alot.
You did the, so you wrote abook.
Then you also did like a studythe Girls Index, yes, where you
know, like a study, the girlsindex, where you know you have
very hardcore facts around girlsand how they feel and how
(09:09):
they're moving through the world.
And there was one, there wasseveral that I read, but the one
where it's like, um, two out ofthree girls say that they don't
speak up because they want tofit in.
One out of two girls, um,something about being perceived
as bossy, which, oh, can I feelthat one Like ever since I came
out of the womb.
You know bossy and domineering,like all these negative words
(09:33):
that you're labeled with becauseyou're a female.
Yes, I mean, how about?
Just like force of nature,powerful, rooted in competence.
You know all these positivethings rooted in competence.
You know all these positivethings, um, and what you're
doing is such important workbecause you're catching these
girls in their formidable yearswhere it's like, okay, like you
said, malleable.
So let's talk some statisticsfor parents at home, I got lots
(09:56):
of moms, lots of dads with lotsof little girls, so what, what
the real core of?
Like?
Get right to the point of whatwould really impact them and
they could take this away and gowow.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, I think some of the most compelling statistics.
So the study that you'rementioning is called the Girls
Index and in the Girls Index wepartner with schools across the
country to survey their girlsand it's a nationally
representative sample.
These aren't girls in rocks,these are just girls
representative sample.
These aren't girls in rocks,these are just girls.
And in the last iteration ofthe study we surveyed 17,502
(10:30):
girls in grades five through 12.
And it's the largest study ofits kind.
And so what we saw in thisresearch is that confidence
drops significantly betweenfifth and ninth grade and then
it just sort of hangs out and itdoesn't rebound during the
course of our period of studyand in other researchers who
(10:53):
have looked at confidence inwomen and later in life,
confidence stays prettycompromised for most of us until
actually our mid forties.
So it's like okay, in in fifthgrade you're 10.
And in ninth grade you knowyou're just emerging in your in
the mid teen years and then youjust lack confidence for the
(11:17):
rest of your adult life.
When so many critical decisionsare being made Right, I mean,
think between 10 and 45, you aremaking very significant
decisions on your relationships,your education, your career,
your friend groups, all of thesethings and I think so much of
our decisions are rooted inplaces of self-doubt and we stay
(11:41):
in places that we shouldn't, westay in relationships that we
shouldn't, we take pathways thatwe shouldn't because we don't
believe ourselves as capable orconfident enough to pursue those
or to leave an unhealthyrelationship or to take a new
adventure or a risk.
And if we could help girls keepthat confidence that they have
(12:02):
when they're young, or build itback up, the confidence that
they've lost, how would wechange the decisions that they
make?
How would we change the careersthey would pursue?
How would we change the successof their friendships and their
relationships?
Because they believe themselvesto be deserving of something
good and healthy and fulfillingand sustaining.
(12:23):
So the confidence piece isprobably the most concerning for
me, because I believe that itimpacts every domain of a
person's life and um, and thenwe see it play itself out in
unhealthy ways throughout,throughout all of our lives, um,
so the confidence piece is, iscore.
I think the other uh stats thatyou were referencing, um, is
(12:45):
the percentage of girls whodon't speak their mind or
disagree with others becausethey don't want to be perceived
as bossy.
And you're right, bossy is aword that we tend to only apply
to girls and women.
You don't hear boys beingcalled bossy.
Instead, it's like he's such aleader or he's really strong.
He's such a leader or he'sreally strong, and so that that
(13:11):
is troubling, that theperception of having an opinion
or speaking my mind is somethingthat wouldn't be welcome and
would be perceived as negative.
Can we change?
Speaker 1 (13:17):
can we start a?
Can we go viral and just startcalling men bossy Like hey boss,
baby, you little bossy, babybitch?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Right, I mean cause we do a lot of things of like
trying to, trying to take backthat word and it just hasn't.
It hasn't always gone.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
I'm going to start doing that.
That's one of my nail art in2025.
And calling men bossy, that ismy two like pinnacles.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, we have a shirt at rocks and it says bossy, and
then bossy, scratched out andit says leader.
Yeah, because I think that it.
Those are leadership skills,like having opinions,
galvanizing groups in, you know,challenging perceptions,
pushing back, engaging indiscourse and dialogue, like
those are all really healthybehaviors.
(14:02):
But when they're exhibited bymen, they're seen as strength
and oftentimes, when they'reexhibited by women, they're seen
as abrasive or yeah, that's athat's a big, big old pile of
bullshit.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Right, there is what it is.
We're gonna change that.
I mean, I'm gonna change that2025 and beyond I'm totally here
for it because I think mostgirls are too right.
Yes, absolutely and to thinkthat half of girls, more than
half of girls, you know, believethat you know, and it is
probably an appropriate time forme to bring up my favorite
quote of all time, okay, and oneof my favorite hip-hop lyrics
(14:35):
of all time, by Lil Wayneconfidence is a stain you can't
wipe off.
I mean that I love it so muchbecause it's true.
If you have inner confidence,that comes from I mean just
really like rooted in your core,it's something so powerful that
, like it shakes people.
It does.
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, and I think that sometimes we get this sense
that confidence is arroganceand it's not, and and some girls
, I think, get the sense thatthey can't be kind and confident
at the same time.
And I think you, you totallycan't Like I think that I'm a
really nice person and but Ialso have boundaries Right, and
(15:16):
so like I could be super niceand look out for you and and
take care of you and and beempathetic, but like don't mess
with me, right.
And so I think that that senseof having a strong sense of self
and setting up some boundariesso you don't get taken advantage
of are it's confusing messagesfor girls, because we're often
(15:37):
taught to be kind Right and benice and people should like you
and you shouldn't be too loudand you know kind of all those
traditional things, and I thinkit's not a matter of not being
nice, like you can be super nice, but it doesn't mean that
people that you turn into adoormat.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
You know, let's dissect the word nice.
Sure, because I have someopinions on that.
Yeah, yeah, I would rather becalled a lot of things than nice
Because, yes, I'm a kind person.
I'm very kind authenticallywhen I for my people and in my
ripple, and like I try to dokind things and I I know that
(16:14):
about myself, so I don't have towalk around with this like I'm
an empath, I'm kind, I justthat's wild to me.
But this whole idea of nice andit's like you're, who are you
really?
If your goal is to be liked byeveryone and to be perceived as
a nice person, who are you atyour core?
So, with my personality and mysage wisdom in this old age of
(16:38):
mine, I'm looking at you,thinking, wow, this person
really probably hasn't foundthemselves yet.
But who are they at their core?
And I'm not saying that in away of like Ooh, who are you?
It's like I can't wait for youto find you because you're
spending so much time externallythe optics of everything, so
your head's on a swivel tryingto figure out how to fit in, who
(16:59):
you're not going to let down,whose agenda you're going to
help fulfill, right, and you'reexhausted internally, you're
feeling really unaligned.
But you don't know what it is.
It just feels icky.
It's misalignment.
It's misalignment.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
And I think, for our girls right, when you're in
those formidable years, you'retrying to figure out who you are
, and our girls now are tryingto figure out themselves, in an
age that was very different thanwhen I was growing up, because
they are getting incessant,constant feedback from the world
in real time.
And that layer of social mediais I'm trying to figure out
(17:39):
internal validation, but it'sall coming externally, right.
I can quantify the number oflikes, I can quantify the number
of followers, I can quantifythe number of followers and
friends.
I can quantify that.
And that level of necessity forvalidation has kind of changed
the landscape of creating,self-creating.
(17:59):
And who am I becoming and whatdo I care about?
Because right now, so much ofwhat we care about is infused,
or it is.
It comes from what other peopletell us to care about, or what
we should like.
Or do you like this outfit?
Let me see if I got enoughlikes, cause if I didn't, then I
might not wear it again.
(18:20):
Or let me post this photo, andif it doesn't get enough
activity, then I'm going to pullit down, right?
So so that sense of figuringoneself out is now so much more
complicated than it's ever beenbefore, and for girls who, like
one of the one of the paths ofadolescence is figuring ourself
(18:41):
out right, figuring out who weare, who we're becoming, and
that that is like one of thetenets of what it means to grow
up, go through adolescence,figure, figuring it out, and I
think our girls are in thisreally tricky spot right now.
That's very different than itwas a generation or two ago, and
sometimes as adults, we don'tknow how to relate to what
they're experiencing right now,and that is creating even more
(19:04):
tension in our relationships andmore difficulty in knowing how
to support them.
So what?
Speaker 1 (19:11):
how do we then with girls?
Are you is rocks trying to getto girls like in the fifth grade
, or are you, is that kind ofwhere you guys are?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
That's where our programming begins in fifth
grade, although I will say,probably the number one question
I'm getting right now is canyou start rocks earlier?
This stuff is already startingand it's starting well before
fifth grade.
The confidence challenges, the,the competition or conflict
with other girls is alreadystarting and it's well
(19:40):
established by fifth grade.
So I we're we're payingattention to those trends and
the realities of you know, girlsare developing earlier, they're
hitting puberty earlier,they're exposed to more adult
content much earlier, and so inmany ways they're getting older,
younger.
But currently our curriculumstarts in fifth grade and it
(20:00):
goes all the way through highschool, so a girl could
participate in ROCS at any ofthose points along the way.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
And what specifically would the experience be?
So if there's parents out therelike, wait, what is this ROCS
you speak of?
I'm interested, but give themsome meat.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, so the ROCS program itself happens during
the school day.
So the facilitators that runROCS programs are employed by
school districts.
Throughout the country, everykind of school that you can
imagine has a ROCS program.
There's more than 500 schoolsthat run it, and public schools
and private schools andparochial schools and charter
(20:37):
schools in every kind ofcommunity and basically that
school counselor, social worker,teacher is meeting with a small
group of girls usually about 10girls once a week for 20 weeks
and they go through a curriculumtogether where they are doing
team building activities.
They're doing self-awarenessactivities.
(20:58):
They're talking aboutchallenges in relationships and
developing healthy communicationskills.
They're learning the differencebetween passive, aggressive,
assertive and passive-aggressivecommunication and what they
might default to and how to usethese different kinds of
communication strategies indifferent parts of their
(21:18):
relationship.
They're learning how tonavigate social media, how to
set boundaries, how to stand upfor themselves.
They're learning how to createa path and a future for
themselves that isn't restrictedin any way by messages that
they might be hearing or pathsthat they might have seen for
(21:39):
themselves that they might notactually fit into.
For us, we want girls to thinkabout their future, their
careers, becoming leaders right.
So in those 20 lessons they'llexperience career development
activities of what am I good at,what do I like, what am I
passionate about, and they'llthink about leadership in a way
(22:02):
that what are the traits of astrong leader?
Do I see myself in those traits?
What are my strengths that Icould bring to leadership, and
what does that look like for me?
We also talk about sexualharassment and sexual violence
prevention in ROCS, becauseunfortunately, that's a reality
for about 30% of girls.
About 36% of girls willexperience sexual harassment
(22:27):
during their high school yearsand about one in four will
experience sexual violence bythe time they're 18.
And so what we do is help girlsidentify signs of unhealthy
relationships and help them knowhow to stand up for themselves
verbally and physically, andthen also learn how to access a
network of support.
Who are the people I could goto to talk to if I'm feeling
(22:50):
unsafe, if I'm feeling pressure,if I'm feeling like something's
happening or has given mesomething in my gut that I need
to get support from?
So for us, it's aboutunderstanding the reality of
girls' lives and giving them asafe environment to learn, to
explore and to access moresupport from their peers, from a
(23:11):
professional and then, from thenetwork of others who love and
care about and are investing intheir futures.
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(25:07):
What are some more details orstatistics or things that you
see and understand that might bestartling or like heads up for
parents.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I mean some of the things that came out in this
most recent research that about55% of high school girls said
that they don't like coming toschool because of conflict and
girl drama.
So that was something that Ithink we need to pay a lot of
attention to is that girls'relationships with girls can get
(25:41):
so high in competition andconflict that it impacts their
desire to even want to be atschool, and oftentimes we're
like, oh, who cares what thosegirls think?
You shouldn't even payattention to them anyways, just
quit looking at your phone, andthen they feel like they can't
talk to us about it becausewe're diminishing what their
experience is.
(26:02):
And so I think when girls arecoming to us with things that we
might think might not be thatimportant, or like, oh, that's,
that's so dramatic, or you're,you shouldn't care that much
about them, or those girlsaren't nice anyway, you're going
to meet nicer girls when you goto college, or who cares what
he thinks about you?
Like we were coming from a goodplace of trying to bolster them
(26:25):
or thicken their skin, butthey're hearing it as like you
don't get it, you don'tunderstand my life and you don't
care.
So I think one of the things wehave to pay attention to is how
girls are actually experiencingtheir relationships, their
environment, their desire towant to be at school and meet
them there so we can understandit better.
(26:48):
I often talk about letting girlsbe the experts on their own
lives, and as adults we have ahard time doing that because
we're like you don't knowanything, you're not going to
figure it out until you're 45.
So let me just tell you andit's a really bad way to
approach relationship buildingright, because we'll say things
like well, when I was your age,I know exactly how you feel.
This exact same thing happenedto me.
(27:10):
And they're like you are ahundred years old, you don't get
it at all, my life is sodifferent.
And we and then we just try toconvince them like how cool or
with it, or how much we get it,instead of saying you're right,
like it's so different.
Now I know what it was like forme, but tell me what it's like
for you.
And that just shift in givingher a little more ownership of
(27:31):
her feelings and experience andallowing us to be invited into
the conversation can really be amoment of connection, because
we're saying I don't get it, Idon't know what it's like to
live in your body, in your shoes, at this moment.
I know what it was like for me,share with me, and even if we
(27:54):
went through something verysimilar, I think sometimes it's
like, oh yeah, well, thishappened for me.
You know, I lost this person atthat age, or I got stood up the
night before homecoming too.
I know how you feel, and so Ithink we I think in general we
shouldn't tell anybody that weknow how they feel.
We should just say gosh, I knowwhat I would feel like, or I
(28:16):
know what that felt like for me.
Tell me what it's like for you.
Um, I think girls what we alsoheard in the research is they
just want to be listened to.
They don't want people to judge, they don't want you to solve
their problems.
They're not always sharingsomething with you because they
want you to barnstorm in andcall the principal, and call the
(28:36):
teacher, and call the coach,and call the other girl's mom
and fix it.
And I think that's often whatwe have this tendency to do.
We get in this protection modeand we're going to like solve it
.
We're gonna tell them what todo, or why don't you just do
that?
Or you should tell them that ordo this.
And sometimes they just want tobe listened to.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I just want to get off my chest somebody, somewhere
, said something so profound soprofound that I don't remember
who it was but, it always.
It stuck with me.
Um, like, when someone confidesor comes to them, or they're in
the middle of the throes ofsomething like this, they'll say
they'll qualify it.
Are you looking for a solution?
Are you just looking for an earand like a heart to listen?
(29:15):
And I think you know I've beenso guilty of that.
I'm a woman of action, if youwill.
My husband, it drives him crazywhen I say that.
But you know, find the solutionand you know.
So I have really thought a lotabout that.
When somebody, sometimessomeone, just needs you to
listen and to say you know what?
I don't share that experience.
I'm so curious and I'm here foryou.
(29:37):
Like, let's talk about it.
Opening that up is so powerful.
But I think I don't even knowif it's hard to do.
But I just think we need tomaybe teach ourselves a little
better to step back and look forthose cues.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, because we've got to kind of pause Right,
right and to your point.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
You just said it so eloquently.
We do want to tell, we want tobeat the kid down with, like
when I was your age, I walked toschool in the snow, barefoot,
nude, and I know this and you'redumb and that is the.
You know your intentions are sogood, but it's the opposite of
what you know.
I don't care how old your kidis, like even Dane, my son is
six and a half and sometimeshe'll be like you're not
(30:12):
listening to my words, you'renot hearing me and and I'm like,
wow, he just, he really istrying to tell me like I'm not.
I mean, and usually it'sbecause he wants to go to
Legoland or something, but itreally is, um, take a page out,
like take a page out of thatbook.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, because they they want that support and they
want us to listen, to try tounderstand them, not to respond,
right?
So I think sometimes we'relistening to respond instead of
listening to understand.
Do?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
you know, what I also love about what you said about
the program is that you'reteaching them about like passive
, aggressive, assertive andaggressive behavior, and I don't
know if I'm just aging out like, if I'm just an old I'm that
old lady on the stoop but Idon't understand certain things
happening and I'm going toexplain a couple of them to you.
Okay.
So ghosting, okay, ghosting isthe most cowardly bullshit, bass
(31:08):
, ackwards way to presentyourself in the world, and I
don't care if it's on a sociallevel, I don't care if it's on a
dating level and I don't careif it's in a business level.
I was ghosted on a businesslevel recently.
Now this is like I and I Icouldn't believe it.
I'm like this is some serialkiller shit here, right and so
for me I was like what did I do?
(31:29):
I don't get the ghosting thing.
And whoever out there in theinterwebs and the cool app world
made this a thing and nowpeople can stand by it Like, oh,
we ghost in this era, the fuckyou do.
Yeah, it's the, it is the again,it is such a cowardly way to
present yourself.
So I love the fact that youguys are talking through how to
(31:51):
communicate that and beingpassive, aggressive.
I'm also noticing with adults.
If you come to an adult and tryto kindly confront something,
it is almost like you'rebringing, like um, a courier to
bring a note, like, like you didlike the 1800s or something
don't understand.
(32:11):
If you try to kindly confrontsomething, people completely
lose their shit.
Like a confrontation is so, andI, when I say confrontation, it
does have a negative.
When I, what I mean is if youand I are having a disagreement
and I, we are friends and Ireally want to get to the root
of it and I'm smart enough andastute enough to know that, like
, my reality I've created isn'ta hundred percent accurate.
(32:31):
Yeah, I know that.
Yeah, and your reality isn't ahundred percent accurate.
So what I'd like to do is kindof come together and hash
through it and then get to theother side and usually you're
stronger than, of course.
Yeah, but nobody will go there,they'll talk about it, you
triangulate, they'll do all.
All of that no one wants to.
Like look at each other and belike look, we've been friends a
long time.
This bugs me.
(32:53):
I trust my energy, what's up,so I'm so happy that you guys
are doing that because it's soimportant.
Next thing you know, you're 50years old and you can't have a
conversation.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Well, and I think what we see happen is the
ability, and we teach Istatements, right, how to have,
how to use I statements.
When you did this, it made mefeel this way, I need this in
the future.
Right, and it could be.
When you posted that pictureonline that I didn't look good
in and you didn't ask it, mademe uncomfortable and I'd like
(33:26):
you to take it down and not dothat again.
Or when you told me that thesleepover was canceled and then
you posted all those pictures onInstagram with all the other
girls except me, it totally hurtmy feelings and right, right.
So, being able to acknowledgeand confront in with like
kindness, right, and coming tothe conversation with care,
(33:48):
because you want to preserve arelationship that's important or
you want to have a relationshipthat's important, or you want
to have a brave conversationsometimes you just need a little
template for that.
And then you need to practiceit in low-stakes situations,
right, practice being able totell the ask the teacher like
hey, I think I got number sixright on this test.
Could you check it again?
For some students that is like amortifying I could never do
(34:10):
that.
That, and for others it's noproblem, but what are the places
that we can give girls safeplaces to practice safe
scenarios so that when it comesto be something more high stakes
I've already practiced it inthese other situations had the
(34:32):
chance to try my voice out in anenvironment where people are
cheering me on, so that when Ihave to do it by myself, I have
the self-efficacy to do that.
But I think that what we know iswhat you're talking about
exactly.
That ability to navigate thoserelationship challenges is one
of the core reasons that girls'relationships get high in
conflict, because we don't learnhow to have brave conversations
(34:53):
and we see that interaction asaggressive.
Right, and we're supposed to benice, right, and so we'll be
nice to each other's face andthen be like, oh my God, she's
so much Right.
We'll do the passive,aggressive stuff, stir up the
pot over here instead of sayingwhat we actually need to say.
And that passive aggressiveness, that hostility towards other
(35:17):
women it's so detrimental to usindividually and collectively
when you wonder why you'reriddled with anxiety and
constant thought train.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
You know they're thinking about me.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
What are they saying?
Were they just talking about mewhen they went over there and I
wasn't included?
And that that starts for girls,really young.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
And it continues into adulthood.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
So I said I have a four-year-old.
This was um.
She has glasses.
She's the only one in her pre-Kwith glasses, and one of the
other little girls told her lastweek that girls with glasses
weren't invited to her birthdayparty.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I had so many feelings about it I had so many
feelings about it but I was likeit's, they're four, it don't
matter, you will fuck somebodyup for your kid.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Trust me, I it's, oh my gosh right.
I'm not ready to make rocks forfour-year-olds yet, but it just
made me just so keenly aware ofhow early some of the
exclusionary behaviors can start.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, I've had a couple of little playground, you
know little interludes with acouple of five-year-olds.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
I'm like and that.
I wasn't necessarily, I wasn'tproud of it.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Literally, there was like one moment with Dane where
he was being excluded by thesetwo little boys and the one boy
was being particularly dickishand I was watching it and I was
reminding myself like the, the,the carry, like the, the brain
of my, you know, worried.
Okay, the reasonable part of mybrain was like carry their five
, like it doesn't matter, right,and then the heart part of my
brain, watching dane chase them,and like getting increasingly
more upset, and so finally, thislittle kid was like just being
(36:50):
an absolute asshole and like hismom was like over with, like
two other kids, whatever, and Iwas like, hey, and he goes, we
don't feel like playing with him.
And I go, well, then youshouldn't come to a playground.
And then I was like, uh, maybethis is one for me to like, get
on the couch with my therapist,carrie.
You cannot do this, you can'tbe this way.
(37:11):
But you know yeah you're goingto, of course, yeah, my God,
with your kids, like you willlike, yeah, and then you have to
try to help her figure out whatshe's going to say back or how
to navigate that.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
And you know, it's just, it's putting into practice
so much of the intellectualwork that I've done over the
last 20 years and obviously ithits a little different, but
it's those.
Those patterns can start soearly and and if we could catch
them before we're 20 and 30 and40, maybe we can set different
pathways for these girls.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Yeah, and I think maybe, like the word
confrontation is, it just has avery scary um, I think, meaning
to people, but I've alwaysthought of it as it's like a.
If you can get to that gentle,honest confrontation, then you
really do get to the truth.
And and for my own curiosityand my like cause, I beat myself
(38:05):
up about things like what couldI have done?
What did I say, like I'll dothat to me instead of externally
doing it to the other person, I, I internally go after myself,
which isn't any healthier.
But I want to know I'm socurious what I could have done.
What's on the other side ofthis so we can figure it out.
I can never get there with 98%of the adults.
(38:26):
Like, I don't understand.
But if you saw it as an unlock,is it because a people are
nervous or they don't reallywant to know?
Cause I think a lot of peoplewould rather like my.
I'm comfortable in my narrative, I'm comfortable with my yes,
people.
This feels really good overhere to alienate.
But if I really jumped over tolook at that person's
(38:47):
perspective and maybe I'd seemyself a little differently, I
don't think people are reallywant to go there.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
I think there's, you know there is that walking in
someone else's shoes and empathy, perspective, right.
But then there's also, you know, the way you see yourself and
the way others see you, and thatthere tends to be mismatches
there and even as much work aswe do for ourselves to try to be
(39:15):
more self-aware, and I'm thesame way I always look at like,
ok, well, what, what could Ihave done differently there?
How did I approach that?
And and sometimes it can bekind of debilitating because
it's like, oh my gosh, right, webeat ourselves up and we play
conversations over in our headand we want to test something
else out, or we just are like Itotally screwed that up or what.
(39:37):
I thought I did it right, butthey perceived it totally
different than how I intended itto be.
You know, and I think that is, Ithink it's better to be on that
side because we're at leastcaring about it Right, we at
least have the awareness thatwe're trying.
And I think a lot of peopledon't even have that awareness.
They're not even thinking aboutlike that differentiation in
(40:00):
the ways that we communicate andbuild relationships.
But I think when you becomeaware of the importance of
relationships in your life andcultivating healthy support
networks and support systems andhaving honesty and authenticity
in those relationships, youincrease your awareness of what
you're doing, what you're giving, what you're taking, and I
(40:23):
think that's something I don'tknow when we totally figure that
out.
I think it's got to besomething that we're constantly
working toward improving if wecare about other humans.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
I agree, and I just think confrontation can lead to
a really great space that you,you both, feel good about.
You see some things you couldhave done better, and then the
relationship can grow from there.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, wouldn't you say, the healthiest
relationships you have are whereyou're the most authentic.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yes, where you can be honest and you don't feel like
there's energy or weirdness ornoise, or what am I not seeing?
Or why, where you can be honest, you don't feel like there's
energy or weirdness or noise, orwhat am I not seeing, or why,
why is the energy and like thebehavior not in line with it?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
just I I don't know like.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
I don't think there's any reason for that.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I think the the relationships where you feel
like you have to walk oneggshells right or censor
yourself or just totally be somindful of everything that you
say and do because you fear theother person's response is an
unhealthy relationship, right,right and and a lot of girls are
(41:22):
in friendships like that, wherethey're constantly thinking
what are you going to thinkabout me if I wear this, if I go
here, if I do that, becausejust being me isn't okay and
just being myself or saying whatI think you're not going to
accept that.
And so we almost positionourselves to be in these
unhealthy relationships fromvery early ages, because who I
(41:45):
actually am, you won't like.
And then I think we have tountrain ourselves ourselves and
we do that by being aroundpeople who do accept who we are
and who love us with all of ourfaults and challenges and who
help us grow, because they helpus see the things in ourselves
(42:06):
that that we might not see, andand I think that those are gifts
of relationships that we have.
Like, I think we don't justneed cheerleaders all the time,
we don't just need pep talks andpeople who tell us how great we
are and I'm just going to clapfor you at every moment, cause
we don't become better like that.
We just get used to gettingpraised, and and that is
(42:28):
problematic in our society, it'sproblematic for kids.
If all we do is praise kids forbeing so great and you're so
great and you're so wonderful,they just get used to getting
praise.
And so I think our mostsuccessful relationships are the
ones that are generative, inthe ways that they're constantly
growing and evolving, becausewe're able to have those intense
(42:51):
interactions and confrontationsin the healthiest, most kind
and loving ways.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah, Well, I love what you're doing and I want to
be we.
The reason why you and I evenconnected originally is there's
a guy that I know from Lima,dominic Rose, who is such a
great supporter of the show, andis it Megan that he connected
with?
Yeah, that's how we gotconnected.
He said he wanted he was likeyou would totally want to
volunteer or do something, orspeak to the girls or do
something.
And I'm like oh, I need to knowmore about this.
(43:21):
So I would love to talk to youoffline about how I, could you
know, clean up my cussing andlike come in and talk to these
girls or do add value, dosomething.
Cause I just think what you'redoing is so incredibly important
.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Thank you.
I mean it is it's it'ssomething I wished I would have
had at you know for my youngerself, and I think it's something
that I I still need you know asas I'm growing up and as I'm an
adult and as I'm impactingother girls' lives and raising a
girl, it's like we don't growout of all of the insecurities
(43:56):
and all of the challengesnecessarily.
I think we're continuallybecoming and surrounding
yourself with other people andwomen who are on that journey of
self-awareness, but also likewe'll, we'll stand with you as
you as you do.
This work is is so important,so I would love for that to
(44:17):
happen too good, awesome.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
I've passed the snuff test.
How can people find you like ifthey want, if they're like I
want to learn more.
I want my daughter involved inthis.
I'd like to help volunteer.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Yeah, ruling our experiencesorg is our website,
um, and on that you can find outinformation about our program.
You could look.
There's a map to see if we haverocks in your area or in your
school district, in your state.
You can pull down aninfographic to see some of the
(44:50):
high-level data.
There's some webinars andresources for adults who have
girls in their lives.
We really try to keep all ofour work central to the girl,
but also we want to positivelyimpact her environment, the
(45:13):
teachers and coaches and parentswho are mentoring and raising
girls.
We know that they need tools,they need support, they need to
understand her reality so thatthey can best help her, and so
that's why we've kind of builtout our organization with the
girls program and then the toolsand resources and supports for
the adults who have girls intheir lives.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
I love that.
Well, it's so nice to meet you,so good to meet you too, and
hopefully this is only thebeginning.
Yes, I'm here for it, me too.
And if you're still out therefollowing your girl, follow me
on YouTube, spotify, apple orwherever you get your podcasts.
And until next time, pleasecall the next man in your life
bossy.
We're going to start arevolution and keep moving, baby
, you big boss, baby.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Oh my God, I love it.
Hey there you beautiful badass.
Welcome to the Keri Croft Show.
I'm your host, keri Croft,delivering you stories that get
you pumped up and feeling likethe unstoppable savage that you
are.
So grab your coffee, put onyour game face and let's do this
thing.
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Don't say I've never doneanything for you.
All right, lisa Hinkleman,welcome to the Keri Croft Show.
Thank you, you are.
Just if you could see what I'mseeing right now in terms of how
well you go with like thebackdrop.
It's almost like I mean, youcouldn't put it together any
(01:30):
better.
I love it.
It's so good.
It's so good to finally meetyou.
Good to meet you, too.
Jump right into this because Ilove the fact that you have a
nonprofit for girls that helpsbuild confidence and teach them
how to live in the world in amore, I guess, just confident
(01:51):
way.
Right, and I was looking atyour website and looking at
everything and I'm just I couldtalk to you probably for hours
about this.
What got you into this specificthing?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, I think most of us as girls have experiences
when we're growing up, thatshape who we become right, and
that could.
Those experiences can make usfeel better about ourselves or
worse about ourselves.
They can make us feelcomfortable in our own skin or
not, and I think I was one ofthose girls that was a tomboy at
(02:28):
that time.
That's what that's what I wascalled during that time, cause I
was athletic and loud and I hitpuberty early, so I was like
bigger than all the other girlsin my class and I had two older
brothers, so I was always likelooking for a fight or something
, you know, and I just I movedto a new school fifth, going
into sixth grade, and I justfelt like I I didn't fit in, I
(02:51):
didn't have any friends, I lookdifferent than people, the
things I liked were differentthan the other girls, and it was
just always this like trying tofind myself and yet not wanting
to make myself smaller, andthat navigation was tricky for
me and I felt like I didn'treally find my people until much
(03:16):
later in life, meaning women,friends, girlfriends, people who
I could trust.
That that would be my networkand once I did, I realized what
I had missed along the way.
So many years of feeling likenobody gets me, nobody
understands me.
I'm the only one I don't.
(03:37):
Girls are too much drama.
I just rather hang out with theguys because there's they're
just easier to get along withand and so so I think that was
like part of the really likecore base of this work.
But I became a counselor in mycareer and, um, in that work
it's really been centered aroundgirls and women and the sense
(03:59):
that when we go throughexperiences in our life,
especially as young people, theyshape who we become as grownups
.
And if those experiences includea lot of negative reinforcement
, include a lot of pressure tomake yourself smaller or
different, include a lot of theinternalization of what's wrong
(04:20):
with you and what's not okaywith you, we keep that and we
change to become accepted byothers, and for many girls and
women we change in ways that areharmful, that don't help us
actualize our full potentials.
So I think it was a matter of,like personal experiences
alongside professionalexperiences that made me think
(04:44):
maybe we could do something forgirls at an earlier stage of
their life.
So they're not the women thatI'm seeing in counseling, but
they're the girls who we cangive the skills and the
competencies to, to have theconversations early, to really
start to shift theirtrajectories, because we're
shifting their perceptions ofthemselves, what's possible, who
they can become at the timewhere their self-confidence is
(05:09):
most malleable.
And that was some of the earlyintegration of the thinking
around rocks and rocks was born.
That's when rocks was born.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Was rocks born before your actual daughter was born,
oh well before.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Okay, so I yes, so I was a professor at Ohio State in
2006.
I I had actually finished myPhD at age 26 and started a
career early in academia and theinitial study and the initial
(05:43):
work of ROCS the first ROCSprogram started in 2006.
And we had 57 girls whoparticipated in that first
program in Columbus City Schools, and I would train my graduate
students to implement thecurriculum that we had been
developing and to test and pilotit and to see how girls were
growing and changing andevolving.
(06:04):
And we were like this isworking, this is actually
working, and and so then we keptusing that data to refine and
enhance and improve and increasethe, the efficacy of the
program.
And then my students would gograduate and say, hey, dr
Hinkleman, can I keep runningROX?
And I'm like, oh for sure, likejust keep, let's just keep
(06:25):
doing this, because it's likeyou love it, the girls love it,
it's making an impact.
And then, after five years ofkind of this very organic growth
, in 2011, I was like I thinkthis could be something, and
that was the year that ROXbecame a nonprofit and so we
(06:46):
started scaling the work,building out a team, keeping the
model where we train andlicense school counselors and
social workers and educators,and then they take our 20-week
curriculum back to their schoolsand they run it in small groups
with girls.
And so at this point, so thatyear one, 2006, we had 57 girls.
This year we had 8,900 girlsacross 44 states and 500 schools
(07:12):
that participated in ROCS.
So it's been an evolution, andso what's so interesting and
I'll get back to the questionthat you asked is I have done
this work now for almost 20years and I didn't have a
daughter until 2020.
So that has been so amazing,terrifying.
(07:41):
Such a gift alongsidetremendous pressure cause.
I feel like people are going tobe like, ooh, hey, expert on
girls, let's see how yourdaughter turns out.
What's the Hinkleman's daughtergoing to be like, you know?
So I feel that, um, thatintensity, and I'm just such,
it's such a treasure to um havea daughter.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I'm sure, and isn't that just so interesting that
the story was written, that youwould end up with a little girl,
irene.
Irene, how old is she now?
She's four.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
So she's four.
She'll be five here in a couplemonths.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Is she like a hard charger, like you, like her mama
?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
She's a wild woman.
Good, she's an uncontrollableforce of nature.
Good, and I love wild woman.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Good, she's, uh good, uncontrollable force of nature
good and I love every minute ofit.
Okay so, and I love everyminute of it.
You'll say that again, and ifyou see me on my phone, that's
why I'm taking photos of you oh,that's or um b-roll video.
It's not because I'm okay oninstagram and then say and I
love every minute of it.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
And I love every minute of it.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Okay.
So, parents of girls, if yourears aren't already perked up,
this is a very importantconversation you should be
listening to because you have alot.
You did the, so you wrote abook.
Then you also did like a studythe Girls Index, yes, where you
know, like a study, the girlsindex, where you know you have
very hardcore facts around girlsand how they feel and how
(09:09):
they're moving through the world.
And there was one, there wasseveral that I read, but the one
where it's like, um, two out ofthree girls say that they don't
speak up because they want tofit in.
One out of two girls, um,something about being perceived
as bossy, which, oh, can I feelthat one Like ever since I came
out of the womb.
You know bossy and domineering,like all these negative words
(09:33):
that you're labeled with becauseyou're a female.
Yes, I mean, how about?
Just like force of nature,powerful, rooted in competence.
You know all these positivethings rooted in competence.
You know all these positivethings, um, and what you're
doing is such important workbecause you're catching these
girls in their formidable yearswhere it's like, okay, like you
said, malleable.
So let's talk some statisticsfor parents at home, I got lots
(09:56):
of moms, lots of dads with lotsof little girls, so what, what
the real core of?
Like?
Get right to the point of whatwould really impact them and
they could take this away and gowow.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Yeah, I think some of the most compelling statistics.
So the study that you'rementioning is called the Girls
Index and in the Girls Index wepartner with schools across the
country to survey their girlsand it's a nationally
representative sample.
These aren't girls in rocks,these are just girls
representative sample.
These aren't girls in rocks,these are just girls.
And in the last iteration ofthe study we surveyed 17,502
(10:30):
girls in grades five through 12.
And it's the largest study ofits kind.
And so what we saw in thisresearch is that confidence
drops significantly betweenfifth and ninth grade and then
it just sort of hangs out and itdoesn't rebound during the
course of our period of studyand in other researchers who
(10:53):
have looked at confidence inwomen and later in life,
confidence stays prettycompromised for most of us until
actually our mid forties.
So it's like okay, in in fifthgrade you're 10.
And in ninth grade you knowyou're just emerging in your in
the mid teen years and then youjust lack confidence for the
(11:17):
rest of your adult life.
When so many critical decisionsare being made Right, I mean,
think between 10 and 45, you aremaking very significant
decisions on your relationships,your education, your career,
your friend groups, all of thesethings and I think so much of
our decisions are rooted inplaces of self-doubt and we stay
(11:41):
in places that we shouldn't, westay in relationships that we
shouldn't, we take pathways thatwe shouldn't because we don't
believe ourselves as capable orconfident enough to pursue those
or to leave an unhealthyrelationship or to take a new
adventure or a risk.
And if we could help girls keepthat confidence that they have
(12:02):
when they're young, or build itback up, the confidence that
they've lost, how would wechange the decisions that they
make?
How would we change the careersthey would pursue?
How would we change the successof their friendships and their
relationships?
Because they believe themselvesto be deserving of something
good and healthy and fulfillingand sustaining.
(12:23):
So the confidence piece isprobably the most concerning for
me, because I believe that itimpacts every domain of a
person's life and um, and thenwe see it play itself out in
unhealthy ways throughout,throughout all of our lives, um,
so the confidence piece is, iscore.
I think the other uh stats thatyou were referencing, um, is
(12:45):
the percentage of girls whodon't speak their mind or
disagree with others becausethey don't want to be perceived
as bossy.
And you're right, bossy is aword that we tend to only apply
to girls and women.
You don't hear boys beingcalled bossy.
Instead, it's like he's such aleader or he's really strong.
He's such a leader or he'sreally strong, and so that that
(13:11):
is troubling, that theperception of having an opinion
or speaking my mind is somethingthat wouldn't be welcome and
would be perceived as negative.
Can we change?
Speaker 1 (13:17):
can we start a?
Can we go viral and just startcalling men bossy Like hey boss,
baby, you little bossy, babybitch?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Right, I mean cause we do a lot of things of like
trying to, trying to take backthat word and it just hasn't.
It hasn't always gone.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
I'm going to start doing that.
That's one of my nail art in2025.
And calling men bossy, that ismy two like pinnacles.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, we have a shirt at rocks and it says bossy, and
then bossy, scratched out andit says leader.
Yeah, because I think that it.
Those are leadership skills,like having opinions,
galvanizing groups in, you know,challenging perceptions,
pushing back, engaging indiscourse and dialogue, like
those are all really healthybehaviors.
(14:02):
But when they're exhibited bymen, they're seen as strength
and oftentimes, when they'reexhibited by women, they're seen
as abrasive or yeah, that's athat's a big, big old pile of
bullshit.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Right, there is what it is.
We're gonna change that.
I mean, I'm gonna change that2025 and beyond I'm totally here
for it because I think mostgirls are too right.
Yes, absolutely and to thinkthat half of girls, more than
half of girls, you know, believethat you know, and it is
probably an appropriate time forme to bring up my favorite
quote of all time, okay, and oneof my favorite hip-hop lyrics
(14:35):
of all time, by Lil Wayneconfidence is a stain you can't
wipe off.
I mean that I love it so muchbecause it's true.
If you have inner confidence,that comes from I mean just
really like rooted in your core,it's something so powerful that
, like it shakes people.
It does.
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, and I think that sometimes we get this sense
that confidence is arroganceand it's not, and and some girls
, I think, get the sense thatthey can't be kind and confident
at the same time.
And I think you, you totallycan't Like I think that I'm a
really nice person and but Ialso have boundaries Right, and
(15:16):
so like I could be super niceand look out for you and and
take care of you and and beempathetic, but like don't mess
with me, right.
And so I think that that senseof having a strong sense of self
and setting up some boundariesso you don't get taken advantage
of are it's confusing messagesfor girls, because we're often
(15:37):
taught to be kind Right and benice and people should like you
and you shouldn't be too loudand you know kind of all those
traditional things, and I thinkit's not a matter of not being
nice, like you can be super nice, but it doesn't mean that
people that you turn into adoormat.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
You know, let's dissect the word nice.
Sure, because I have someopinions on that.
Yeah, yeah, I would rather becalled a lot of things than nice
Because, yes, I'm a kind person.
I'm very kind authenticallywhen I for my people and in my
ripple, and like I try to dokind things and I I know that
(16:14):
about myself, so I don't have towalk around with this like I'm
an empath, I'm kind, I justthat's wild to me.
But this whole idea of nice andit's like you're, who are you
really?
If your goal is to be liked byeveryone and to be perceived as
a nice person, who are you atyour core?
So, with my personality and mysage wisdom in this old age of
(16:38):
mine, I'm looking at you,thinking, wow, this person
really probably hasn't foundthemselves yet.
But who are they at their core?
And I'm not saying that in away of like Ooh, who are you?
It's like I can't wait for youto find you because you're
spending so much time externallythe optics of everything, so
your head's on a swivel tryingto figure out how to fit in, who
(16:59):
you're not going to let down,whose agenda you're going to
help fulfill, right, and you'reexhausted internally, you're
feeling really unaligned.
But you don't know what it is.
It just feels icky.
It's misalignment.
It's misalignment.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
And I think, for our girls right, when you're in
those formidable years, you'retrying to figure out who you are
, and our girls now are tryingto figure out themselves, in an
age that was very different thanwhen I was growing up, because
they are getting incessant,constant feedback from the world
in real time.
And that layer of social mediais I'm trying to figure out
(17:39):
internal validation, but it'sall coming externally, right.
I can quantify the number oflikes, I can quantify the number
of followers, I can quantifythe number of followers and
friends.
I can quantify that.
And that level of necessity forvalidation has kind of changed
the landscape of creating,self-creating.
(17:59):
And who am I becoming and whatdo I care about?
Because right now, so much ofwhat we care about is infused,
or it is.
It comes from what other peopletell us to care about, or what
we should like.
Or do you like this outfit?
Let me see if I got enoughlikes, cause if I didn't, then I
might not wear it again.
(18:20):
Or let me post this photo, andif it doesn't get enough
activity, then I'm going to pullit down, right?
So so that sense of figuringoneself out is now so much more
complicated than it's ever beenbefore, and for girls who, like
one of the one of the paths ofadolescence is figuring ourself
(18:41):
out right, figuring out who weare, who we're becoming, and
that that is like one of thetenets of what it means to grow
up, go through adolescence,figure, figuring it out, and I
think our girls are in thisreally tricky spot right now.
That's very different than itwas a generation or two ago, and
sometimes as adults, we don'tknow how to relate to what
they're experiencing right now,and that is creating even more
(19:04):
tension in our relationships andmore difficulty in knowing how
to support them.
So what?
Speaker 1 (19:11):
how do we then with girls?
Are you is rocks trying to getto girls like in the fifth grade
, or are you, is that kind ofwhere you guys are?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
That's where our programming begins in fifth
grade, although I will say,probably the number one question
I'm getting right now is canyou start rocks earlier?
This stuff is already startingand it's starting well before
fifth grade.
The confidence challenges, the,the competition or conflict
with other girls is alreadystarting and it's well
(19:40):
established by fifth grade.
So I we're we're payingattention to those trends and
the realities of you know, girlsare developing earlier, they're
hitting puberty earlier,they're exposed to more adult
content much earlier, and so inmany ways they're getting older,
younger.
But currently our curriculumstarts in fifth grade and it
(20:00):
goes all the way through highschool, so a girl could
participate in ROCS at any ofthose points along the way.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
And what specifically would the experience be?
So if there's parents out therelike, wait, what is this ROCS
you speak of?
I'm interested, but give themsome meat.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, so the ROCS program itself happens during
the school day.
So the facilitators that runROCS programs are employed by
school districts.
Throughout the country, everykind of school that you can
imagine has a ROCS program.
There's more than 500 schoolsthat run it, and public schools
and private schools andparochial schools and charter
(20:37):
schools in every kind ofcommunity and basically that
school counselor, social worker,teacher is meeting with a small
group of girls usually about 10girls once a week for 20 weeks
and they go through a curriculumtogether where they are doing
team building activities.
They're doing self-awarenessactivities.
(20:58):
They're talking aboutchallenges in relationships and
developing healthy communicationskills.
They're learning the differencebetween passive, aggressive,
assertive and passive-aggressivecommunication and what they
might default to and how to usethese different kinds of
communication strategies indifferent parts of their
(21:18):
relationship.
They're learning how tonavigate social media, how to
set boundaries, how to stand upfor themselves.
They're learning how to createa path and a future for
themselves that isn't restrictedin any way by messages that
they might be hearing or pathsthat they might have seen for
(21:39):
themselves that they might notactually fit into.
For us, we want girls to thinkabout their future, their
careers, becoming leaders right.
So in those 20 lessons they'llexperience career development
activities of what am I good at,what do I like, what am I
passionate about, and they'llthink about leadership in a way
(22:02):
that what are the traits of astrong leader?
Do I see myself in those traits?
What are my strengths that Icould bring to leadership, and
what does that look like for me?
We also talk about sexualharassment and sexual violence
prevention in ROCS, becauseunfortunately, that's a reality
for about 30% of girls.
About 36% of girls willexperience sexual harassment
(22:27):
during their high school yearsand about one in four will
experience sexual violence bythe time they're 18.
And so what we do is help girlsidentify signs of unhealthy
relationships and help them knowhow to stand up for themselves
verbally and physically, andthen also learn how to access a
network of support.
Who are the people I could goto to talk to if I'm feeling
(22:50):
unsafe, if I'm feeling pressure,if I'm feeling like something's
happening or has given mesomething in my gut that I need
to get support from?
So for us, it's aboutunderstanding the reality of
girls' lives and giving them asafe environment to learn, to
explore and to access moresupport from their peers, from a
(23:11):
professional and then, from thenetwork of others who love and
care about and are investing intheir futures.
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(25:07):
What are some more details orstatistics or things that you
see and understand that might bestartling or like heads up for
parents.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I mean some of the things that came out in this
most recent research that about55% of high school girls said
that they don't like coming toschool because of conflict and
girl drama.
So that was something that Ithink we need to pay a lot of
attention to is that girls'relationships with girls can get
(25:41):
so high in competition andconflict that it impacts their
desire to even want to be atschool, and oftentimes we're
like, oh, who cares what thosegirls think?
You shouldn't even payattention to them anyways, just
quit looking at your phone, andthen they feel like they can't
talk to us about it becausewe're diminishing what their
experience is.
(26:02):
And so I think when girls arecoming to us with things that we
might think might not be thatimportant, or like, oh, that's,
that's so dramatic, or you're,you shouldn't care that much
about them, or those girlsaren't nice anyway, you're going
to meet nicer girls when you goto college, or who cares what
he thinks about you?
Like we were coming from a goodplace of trying to bolster them
(26:25):
or thicken their skin, butthey're hearing it as like you
don't get it, you don'tunderstand my life and you don't
care.
So I think one of the things wehave to pay attention to is how
girls are actually experiencingtheir relationships, their
environment, their desire towant to be at school and meet
them there so we can understandit better.
(26:48):
I often talk about letting girlsbe the experts on their own
lives, and as adults we have ahard time doing that because
we're like you don't knowanything, you're not going to
figure it out until you're 45.
So let me just tell you andit's a really bad way to
approach relationship buildingright, because we'll say things
like well, when I was your age,I know exactly how you feel.
This exact same thing happenedto me.
(27:10):
And they're like you are ahundred years old, you don't get
it at all, my life is sodifferent.
And we and then we just try toconvince them like how cool or
with it, or how much we get it,instead of saying you're right,
like it's so different.
Now I know what it was like forme, but tell me what it's like
for you.
And that just shift in givingher a little more ownership of
(27:31):
her feelings and experience andallowing us to be invited into
the conversation can really be amoment of connection, because
we're saying I don't get it, Idon't know what it's like to
live in your body, in your shoes, at this moment.
I know what it was like for me,share with me, and even if we
(27:54):
went through something verysimilar, I think sometimes it's
like, oh yeah, well, thishappened for me.
You know, I lost this person atthat age, or I got stood up the
night before homecoming too.
I know how you feel, and so Ithink we I think in general we
shouldn't tell anybody that weknow how they feel.
We should just say gosh, I knowwhat I would feel like, or I
(28:16):
know what that felt like for me.
Tell me what it's like for you.
Um, I think girls what we alsoheard in the research is they
just want to be listened to.
They don't want people to judge, they don't want you to solve
their problems.
They're not always sharingsomething with you because they
want you to barnstorm in andcall the principal, and call the
(28:36):
teacher, and call the coach,and call the other girl's mom
and fix it.
And I think that's often whatwe have this tendency to do.
We get in this protection modeand we're going to like solve it
.
We're gonna tell them what todo, or why don't you just do
that?
Or you should tell them that ordo this.
And sometimes they just want tobe listened to.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I just want to get off my chest somebody, somewhere
, said something so profound soprofound that I don't remember
who it was but, it always.
It stuck with me.
Um, like, when someone confidesor comes to them, or they're in
the middle of the throes ofsomething like this, they'll say
they'll qualify it.
Are you looking for a solution?
Are you just looking for an earand like a heart to listen?
(29:15):
And I think you know I've beenso guilty of that.
I'm a woman of action, if youwill.
My husband, it drives him crazywhen I say that.
But you know, find the solutionand you know.
So I have really thought a lotabout that.
When somebody, sometimessomeone, just needs you to
listen and to say you know what?
I don't share that experience.
I'm so curious and I'm here foryou.
(29:37):
Like, let's talk about it.
Opening that up is so powerful.
But I think I don't even knowif it's hard to do.
But I just think we need tomaybe teach ourselves a little
better to step back and look forthose cues.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Yeah, because we've got to kind of pause Right,
right and to your point.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
You just said it so eloquently.
We do want to tell, we want tobeat the kid down with, like
when I was your age, I walked toschool in the snow, barefoot,
nude, and I know this and you'redumb and that is the.
You know your intentions are sogood, but it's the opposite of
what you know.
I don't care how old your kidis, like even Dane, my son is
six and a half and sometimeshe'll be like you're not
(30:12):
listening to my words, you'renot hearing me and and I'm like,
wow, he just, he really istrying to tell me like I'm not.
I mean, and usually it'sbecause he wants to go to
Legoland or something, but itreally is, um, take a page out,
like take a page out of thatbook.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, because they they want that support and they
want us to listen, to try tounderstand them, not to respond,
right?
So I think sometimes we'relistening to respond instead of
listening to understand.
Do?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
you know, what I also love about what you said about
the program is that you'reteaching them about like passive
, aggressive, assertive andaggressive behavior, and I don't
know if I'm just aging out like, if I'm just an old I'm that
old lady on the stoop but Idon't understand certain things
happening and I'm going toexplain a couple of them to you.
Okay.
So ghosting, okay, ghosting isthe most cowardly bullshit, bass
(31:08):
, ackwards way to presentyourself in the world, and I
don't care if it's on a sociallevel, I don't care if it's on a
dating level and I don't careif it's in a business level.
I was ghosted on a businesslevel recently.
Now this is like I and I Icouldn't believe it.
I'm like this is some serialkiller shit here, right and so
for me I was like what did I do?
(31:29):
I don't get the ghosting thing.
And whoever out there in theinterwebs and the cool app world
made this a thing and nowpeople can stand by it Like, oh,
we ghost in this era, the fuckyou do.
Yeah, it's the, it is the again,it is such a cowardly way to
present yourself.
So I love the fact that youguys are talking through how to
(31:51):
communicate that and beingpassive, aggressive.
I'm also noticing with adults.
If you come to an adult and tryto kindly confront something,
it is almost like you'rebringing, like um, a courier to
bring a note, like, like you didlike the 1800s or something
don't understand.
(32:11):
If you try to kindly confrontsomething, people completely
lose their shit.
Like a confrontation is so, andI, when I say confrontation, it
does have a negative.
When I, what I mean is if youand I are having a disagreement
and I, we are friends and Ireally want to get to the root
of it and I'm smart enough andastute enough to know that, like
, my reality I've created isn'ta hundred percent accurate.
(32:31):
Yeah, I know that.
Yeah, and your reality isn't ahundred percent accurate.
So what I'd like to do is kindof come together and hash
through it and then get to theother side and usually you're
stronger than, of course.
Yeah, but nobody will go there,they'll talk about it, you
triangulate, they'll do all.
All of that no one wants to.
Like look at each other and belike look, we've been friends a
long time.
This bugs me.
(32:53):
I trust my energy, what's up,so I'm so happy that you guys
are doing that because it's soimportant.
Next thing you know, you're 50years old and you can't have a
conversation.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Well, and I think what we see happen is the
ability, and we teach Istatements, right, how to have,
how to use I statements.
When you did this, it made mefeel this way, I need this in
the future.
Right, and it could be.
When you posted that pictureonline that I didn't look good
in and you didn't ask it, mademe uncomfortable and I'd like
(33:26):
you to take it down and not dothat again.
Or when you told me that thesleepover was canceled and then
you posted all those pictures onInstagram with all the other
girls except me, it totally hurtmy feelings and right, right.
So, being able to acknowledgeand confront in with like
kindness, right, and coming tothe conversation with care,
(33:48):
because you want to preserve arelationship that's important or
you want to have a relationshipthat's important, or you want
to have a brave conversationsometimes you just need a little
template for that.
And then you need to practiceit in low-stakes situations,
right, practice being able totell the ask the teacher like
hey, I think I got number sixright on this test.
Could you check it again?
For some students that is like amortifying I could never do
(34:10):
that.
That, and for others it's noproblem, but what are the places
that we can give girls safeplaces to practice safe
scenarios so that when it comesto be something more high stakes
I've already practiced it inthese other situations had the
(34:32):
chance to try my voice out in anenvironment where people are
cheering me on, so that when Ihave to do it by myself, I have
the self-efficacy to do that.
But I think that what we know iswhat you're talking about
exactly.
That ability to navigate thoserelationship challenges is one
of the core reasons that girls'relationships get high in
conflict, because we don't learnhow to have brave conversations
(34:53):
and we see that interaction asaggressive.
Right, and we're supposed to benice, right, and so we'll be
nice to each other's face andthen be like, oh my God, she's
so much Right.
We'll do the passive,aggressive stuff, stir up the
pot over here instead of sayingwhat we actually need to say.
And that passive aggressiveness, that hostility towards other
(35:17):
women it's so detrimental to usindividually and collectively
when you wonder why you'reriddled with anxiety and
constant thought train.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
You know they're thinking about me.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
What are they saying?
Were they just talking about mewhen they went over there and I
wasn't included?
And that that starts for girls,really young.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
And it continues into adulthood.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
So I said I have a four-year-old.
This was um.
She has glasses.
She's the only one in her pre-Kwith glasses, and one of the
other little girls told her lastweek that girls with glasses
weren't invited to her birthdayparty.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I had so many feelings about it I had so many
feelings about it but I was likeit's, they're four, it don't
matter, you will fuck somebodyup for your kid.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Trust me, I it's, oh my gosh right.
I'm not ready to make rocks forfour-year-olds yet, but it just
made me just so keenly aware ofhow early some of the
exclusionary behaviors can start.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, I've had a couple of little playground, you
know little interludes with acouple of five-year-olds.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
I'm like and that.
I wasn't necessarily, I wasn'tproud of it.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Literally, there was like one moment with Dane where
he was being excluded by thesetwo little boys and the one boy
was being particularly dickishand I was watching it and I was
reminding myself like the, the,the carry, like the, the brain
of my, you know, worried.
Okay, the reasonable part of mybrain was like carry their five
, like it doesn't matter, right,and then the heart part of my
brain, watching dane chase them,and like getting increasingly
more upset, and so finally, thislittle kid was like just being
(36:50):
an absolute asshole and like hismom was like over with, like
two other kids, whatever, and Iwas like, hey, and he goes, we
don't feel like playing with him.
And I go, well, then youshouldn't come to a playground.
And then I was like, uh, maybethis is one for me to like, get
on the couch with my therapist,carrie.
You cannot do this, you can'tbe this way.
(37:11):
But you know yeah you're goingto, of course, yeah, my God,
with your kids, like you willlike, yeah, and then you have to
try to help her figure out whatshe's going to say back or how
to navigate that.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
And you know, it's just, it's putting into practice
so much of the intellectualwork that I've done over the
last 20 years and obviously ithits a little different, but
it's those.
Those patterns can start soearly and and if we could catch
them before we're 20 and 30 and40, maybe we can set different
pathways for these girls.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Yeah, and I think maybe, like the word
confrontation is, it just has avery scary um, I think, meaning
to people, but I've alwaysthought of it as it's like a.
If you can get to that gentle,honest confrontation, then you
really do get to the truth.
And and for my own curiosityand my like cause, I beat myself
(38:05):
up about things like what couldI have done?
What did I say, like I'll dothat to me instead of externally
doing it to the other person, I, I internally go after myself,
which isn't any healthier.
But I want to know I'm socurious what I could have done.
What's on the other side ofthis so we can figure it out.
I can never get there with 98%of the adults.
(38:26):
Like, I don't understand.
But if you saw it as an unlock,is it because a people are
nervous or they don't reallywant to know?
Cause I think a lot of peoplewould rather like my.
I'm comfortable in my narrative, I'm comfortable with my yes,
people.
This feels really good overhere to alienate.
But if I really jumped over tolook at that person's
(38:47):
perspective and maybe I'd seemyself a little differently, I
don't think people are reallywant to go there.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
I think there's, you know there is that walking in
someone else's shoes and empathy, perspective, right.
But then there's also, you know, the way you see yourself and
the way others see you, and thatthere tends to be mismatches
there and even as much work aswe do for ourselves to try to be
(39:15):
more self-aware, and I'm thesame way I always look at like,
ok, well, what, what could Ihave done differently there?
How did I approach that?
And and sometimes it can bekind of debilitating because
it's like, oh my gosh, right, webeat ourselves up and we play
conversations over in our headand we want to test something
else out, or we just are like Itotally screwed that up or what.
(39:37):
I thought I did it right, butthey perceived it totally
different than how I intended itto be.
You know, and I think that is, Ithink it's better to be on that
side because we're at leastcaring about it Right, we at
least have the awareness thatwe're trying.
And I think a lot of peopledon't even have that awareness.
They're not even thinking aboutlike that differentiation in
(40:00):
the ways that we communicate andbuild relationships.
But I think when you becomeaware of the importance of
relationships in your life andcultivating healthy support
networks and support systems andhaving honesty and authenticity
in those relationships, youincrease your awareness of what
you're doing, what you're giving, what you're taking, and I
(40:23):
think that's something I don'tknow when we totally figure that
out.
I think it's got to besomething that we're constantly
working toward improving if wecare about other humans.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
I agree, and I just think confrontation can lead to
a really great space that you,you both, feel good about.
You see some things you couldhave done better, and then the
relationship can grow from there.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, wouldn't you say, the healthiest
relationships you have are whereyou're the most authentic.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yes, where you can be honest and you don't feel like
there's energy or weirdness ornoise, or what am I not seeing?
Or why, where you can be honest, you don't feel like there's
energy or weirdness or noise, orwhat am I not seeing, or why,
why is the energy and like thebehavior not in line with it?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
just I I don't know like.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
I don't think there's any reason for that.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I think the the relationships where you feel
like you have to walk oneggshells right or censor
yourself or just totally be somindful of everything that you
say and do because you fear theother person's response is an
unhealthy relationship, right,right and and a lot of girls are
(41:22):
in friendships like that, wherethey're constantly thinking
what are you going to thinkabout me if I wear this, if I go
here, if I do that, becausejust being me isn't okay and
just being myself or saying whatI think you're not going to
accept that.
And so we almost positionourselves to be in these
unhealthy relationships fromvery early ages, because who I
(41:45):
actually am, you won't like.
And then I think we have tountrain ourselves ourselves and
we do that by being aroundpeople who do accept who we are
and who love us with all of ourfaults and challenges and who
help us grow, because they helpus see the things in ourselves
(42:06):
that that we might not see, andand I think that those are gifts
of relationships that we have.
Like, I think we don't justneed cheerleaders all the time,
we don't just need pep talks andpeople who tell us how great we
are and I'm just going to clapfor you at every moment, cause
we don't become better like that.
We just get used to gettingpraised, and and that is
(42:28):
problematic in our society, it'sproblematic for kids.
If all we do is praise kids forbeing so great and you're so
great and you're so wonderful,they just get used to getting
praise.
And so I think our mostsuccessful relationships are the
ones that are generative, inthe ways that they're constantly
growing and evolving, becausewe're able to have those intense
(42:51):
interactions and confrontationsin the healthiest, most kind
and loving ways.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah, Well, I love what you're doing and I want to
be we.
The reason why you and I evenconnected originally is there's
a guy that I know from Lima,dominic Rose, who is such a
great supporter of the show, andis it Megan that he connected
with?
Yeah, that's how we gotconnected.
He said he wanted he was likeyou would totally want to
volunteer or do something, orspeak to the girls or do
something.
And I'm like oh, I need to knowmore about this.
(43:21):
So I would love to talk to youoffline about how I, could you
know, clean up my cussing andlike come in and talk to these
girls or do add value, dosomething.
Cause I just think what you'redoing is so incredibly important
.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
Thank you.
I mean it is it's it'ssomething I wished I would have
had at you know for my youngerself, and I think it's something
that I I still need you know asas I'm growing up and as I'm an
adult and as I'm impactingother girls' lives and raising a
girl, it's like we don't growout of all of the insecurities
(43:56):
and all of the challengesnecessarily.
I think we're continuallybecoming and surrounding
yourself with other people andwomen who are on that journey of
self-awareness, but also likewe'll, we'll stand with you as
you as you do.
This work is is so important,so I would love for that to
(44:17):
happen too good, awesome.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
I've passed the snuff test.
How can people find you like ifthey want, if they're like I
want to learn more.
I want my daughter involved inthis.
I'd like to help volunteer.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Yeah, ruling our experiencesorg is our website,
um, and on that you can find outinformation about our program.
You could look.
There's a map to see if we haverocks in your area or in your
school district, in your state.
You can pull down aninfographic to see some of the
(44:50):
high-level data.
There's some webinars andresources for adults who have
girls in their lives.
We really try to keep all ofour work central to the girl,
but also we want to positivelyimpact her environment, the
(45:13):
teachers and coaches and parentswho are mentoring and raising
girls.
We know that they need tools,they need support, they need to
understand her reality so thatthey can best help her, and so
that's why we've kind of builtout our organization with the
girls program and then the toolsand resources and supports for
the adults who have girls intheir lives.
Speaker 1 (45:26):
I love that.
Well, it's so nice to meet you,so good to meet you too, and
hopefully this is only thebeginning.
Yes, I'm here for it, me too.
And if you're still out therefollowing your girl, follow me
on YouTube, spotify, apple orwherever you get your podcasts.
And until next time, pleasecall the next man in your life
bossy.
We're going to start arevolution and keep moving, baby
, you big boss, baby.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
Oh my God, I love it.
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