Kerry Minnear, Gentle Giant

Kerry Minnear is one of the most cited inspirations we hear from our guests, and with good reason. Kerry’s work was and is groundbreaking, and we had the pleasure of covering some fascinating ground. Listening to this extremely humble pioneer and innovator is an hour very well spent. To listen / watch: Audio-only: click on...

The post Kerry Minnear, Gentle Giant appeared first on The Keyboard Chronicles.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Yeah, there's a lot of emotion to draw on, shall we say.
And they were just great.
They just always encouraged.
They liked what I did.
Hello and welcome to the Keyboard Chronicles, a podcast for keyboard players.
I'm your host, David Holloway, and I'm thrilled as always to be here with you.

(00:22):
I quite often talk in the introductions to the shows about what a privilege and honor itis to speak with guests.
And it is every single time.
And it certainly is the case with this episode's guest, Mr.
Kerry Mania.
Kerry has popped up across the last five years of the show nearly.
Can't believe it's been nearly five years.

(00:42):
as an inspiration or influence to a whole range of people.
So we were thrilled when we received the opportunity recently to speak to Kerry.
And as you'll hear, we'll talk about the amazing remaster of Gentle Giant's live album,but also we cover Kerry's career in a much broader sense, his approach to composition, his

(01:05):
approach to playing, his post-Gentle Giant career.
the importance of humility and music, you name it, we cover it.
And just what an absolute gentleman and master of his craft Kerry is.
So there's never a better time for me to be quiet and for you to jump in and have alisten.
And I'll talk to you after the show.

(01:38):
Terry, I cannot thank you enough for taking the time with us on this lovely weekend.
Well, I assume it's a lovely weekend for you there in the UK.
It's really good.
It's really nice and hot and warm and I'm wearing a pullover because it's not really hotand warm at all.
I was about to say hot in the UK can be 15 degrees.

(01:59):
Yeah that's right, yeah we're all wallowing in it.
No, it's absolutely lovely to have you on the show.
thought we'd start off because one of the reasons we have the privilege of speaking withyou is I know that there's uh an imminent release in May of a remaster of your amazing
live album, playing the full, the complete live experience.

(02:21):
So I thought I'd just start off with asking about what was the
momentum for that being remastered uh firstly and then I'd like to get into what yourrecollections of doing that album originally was.
Blimey, that's a long time ago.
Yeah, well, the reason for doing it is we've done most of the rest of the cataloguecourtesy of our friend Stephen Wilson, who's helped us out a lot.

(02:50):
And this one was a different kettle of fish because some of the masters that we need to dothe remixing were missing.
So uh also we discovered we were actually using um
a mobile studio unit that was outside, it belonged to Jethro Tull, it was called MaisonRouge.

(03:13):
And I think he did a lot of stuff for people around about then.
So we actually recorded four concerts, one of which was pretty disastrous because thekeyboard was packed up.
So we really had three concerts to choose from.
uh so he, uh when m we started to listen back to them,

(03:34):
The speeds were varying.
So in other words, the capstan wasn't constant.
So it did produce some problems.
And so we realized there were going to be so many problems with this that we couldn't justsend it to Stephen Wilson said, remix this, because it was going to be hours of trying to

(03:56):
sort things out before he could start.
So we have a very good friend, a highly technical label.
called Dan Bournemouth, who actually mixed the whole thing.
But first of all, he had to correct everything, take the hums out, know, take all thebroken leads apparently.

(04:17):
He's worth an interview himself, by the way, if ever you fancy finding out a bit more.
The things he had to do to sort things, but he finished up with a slightly differentobjective too, rather than just remixing the tracks as they were on the original album.
He said, uh I would like to make this like a concert.

(04:39):
So that is the whole concept is that you're there at an hour and a quarter or so concertlistening to the band, listening to the heckling from behind.
If you're listening in Atmos, which we had the privilege of doing, it's amazing.
It's like you're there.
And he's chosen some great live tracks.

(05:02):
So they're not all sincerely a remix of the original, but they are a complete concert ofgenuine live performance, which for me was obviously a lot more exciting in many ways
because they're versions that we hadn't heard.
so it's turned out to be something that is very special, especially to me.

(05:25):
When I first heard it, I actually welled up because I haven't been part of something that
kind of creative and strong and confident and throwaway.
Since those days, everything else I've been part of has been an effort.

(05:46):
it's just lovely to hear what sounds like water off a duck's back, which is throwing itout.
And it's been mixed with such care by Dan, because he does love the band.
I try and tell him not to be so obsessed, but I can't.
I can't stop him.
I don't think Dan's alone there, Kerry.

(06:07):
And I'm fascinated when you said you welled up because I can imagine if you're hearing allthat wider sound stuff from around the show, as you said, the banter, the heckling, all
that sort of stuff.
It's essentially a time capture where you won't have heard that stuff for, you know, wellover 40 years.
Was it a real head spinning experience for you listening to all that?

(06:30):
Yes, yeah, it was really.
it's because, yeah, you to edit these bits out.
All I ever think.
uh Yeah, it's because it a lot through the it's been weird because I've done so manythings since I left the band.
That because of the interest in the band that has taken a place in my memory that iscloser than the stuff that I've done since the band.

(06:58):
You get what I mean?
And it's quite weird because it seems like almost yesterday.
Yeah.
So I finished up with, with, yeah, just, just being overwhelmed really by, by theprivilege of what it all was.
And I still can't believe that there's a continued interest.

(07:20):
um And people, you know, just still coming youngsters that are getting into the band andthe internet has done us such a favor.
in so many ways.
We're going to explore that a little bit more Kerry as well about how revered Gentle Giantis and your work is um up until this day because it is something and just as an aside

(07:42):
there are a number of guests both on the record and off the record that have mentioned youpersonally.
um Whether it's Richard Hilton from Niall Rodgers and Sheik to the current keyboard playerin Kansas.
Both of them cited you in their interviews as huge influences and inspirations.
So I'm not surprised, but I can imagine when you're at the center of it, it can feel quitesurprising.

(08:07):
Well, yeah, because I've been a humble piano teacher and guitar teacher since then for agood 15 years.
That's been very kind to me.
I've managed to hold the mortgage together and stuff.
um so, yeah, I've never thought about what I've done in the past.
So um people keep mentioning it to me occasionally.

(08:30):
I did get a rap at the window when I was playing the piano one day, but it was a chat fromItaly.
just to find out where you lived.
I've come to stay alone.
It's all a bit weird.
Yeah, because I'm just, you know, I'm just happy.
That- well I- I- I know I carried that is weird.

(08:51):
Yeah, I don't know how he got hold of the address, but no, know there's several peoplethat I know and admire that are friends now.
You mentioned one from Sheik there, my good friend.
um yeah, there's a Dream Theater chap who's the keyboard player with...

(09:15):
Yes, yeah.
That's him, yeah.
He's a great player.
All these, you know, kind of, yeah, very, very, very confident players that seem to besomehow impressed by what we did.
I think it's more about because I'm not a great exponent of Keys, I don't think, but Ithink with all the band, perhaps we weren't, we're not the best, you know, we're not

(09:44):
brilliant exponents on our instruments.
But what we did was good feel.
And the parts are all very interesting and the character of the individual players wasvery much represented.
They weren't just playing the parts, know, each with the bluesiness of Gary's playing, thefunkiness of the drums from John and all the different things that have been put into us

(10:13):
all as individuals were all coming out through the character of the band and theindividual players.
So yeah, I think I wouldn't call myself a great player by any means, but I think I'm quitecreative and quite interesting.
So QI, quite interesting, I call it.

(10:33):
No, you absolutely are.
And that's an understatement.
I'm interested, Kerry, to take a little bit of a step back.
We always ask our guests about their musical upbringing.
And I'm particularly interested to explore with you what in your musical upbringing andoriginal education in music has probably stood you in good stead right up until today.
But just tell us a little bit about your childhood, teenage years and what made youpassionate about music.

(10:58):
Yeah, well, when I was 11, I went to secondary school that was just about to lose thetimpaniist from the school orchestra.
So as an 11 year old, I became the timpaniist and that's before the days of pedal tuning.
So I was having to tune with little handles around and quite often I had to tune to adifferent note to the key that the orchestra

(11:26):
because I got an entry coming later in a different key.
So my relative pitch got quite good at that point as I tried to do all that.
And that was one of the big training for the year.
I've never got perfect pitch, but relative pitch is pretty good because of that.
So I was pleased with that.
And I enjoyed TIPS because it also meant I could sit at the back of an orchestra ah forages before my big entry.

(11:55):
and just listen to how everything was put together.
It was very instructive in many ways.
Then, of course, I came in at one place and eh there you go.
But it's I've enjoyed I've enjoyed that element.
I played in orchestras and enjoyed that.
And of course, at school, I was in a band, formed a band for street cred.

(12:17):
And that that's it.
Just when the Rolling Stones were becoming popular.
So.
We were doing Beatles and Stones and I was just enjoying really, I started off on drums onthe kit and then the chords got a bit complicated for our guitarist.
So I went to guitar and all the time I was taking lessons, reluctantly, but my parentswere very good disciplinarians and they kept me at it and I'm very glad that they did.

(12:49):
So, yeah, kept playing and eventually um
I've managed to get into the Royal Academy of Music after school, thanks to a verypositive headmaster who phoned up and arranged for me to have an audition.
So that was three years of wonderful instruction, walking amongst the corridors, listeningto people practicing, thinking, Libinette, what am I doing here?

(13:18):
But, you know, it was just, it was great.
It was a wonderful experience.
And that was a...
a study in composition.
So I went there to be percussion first study, but I took some compositions as a backup toget me in on the percussion.
But they took the compositions off and said, we think we should do composition first,percussion and piano joint second study.

(13:41):
So that's why I did for three years there.
And it's lovely.
mean, I'm full of insecurities like most musicians.
You know, quite
quite the nervous time there, but it was wonderful experience looking back at it.
So I enjoyed it.
It's a good study.
studied music.
em

(14:02):
I was going say, and just on the Royal Academy of Music, as you just mentioned, youstudied composition and so on.
were the key, I know it's very hard to sort of summarise what you would learn across threeyears, but what were the core things that you'd learned that stood you in good stead
throughout your career and helped you at least address some of those insecurities to feelconfident to actually go ahead with music?

(14:26):
Right.
So what I found interesting was that my study was composition throughout the years.
So from Palestrina, early Renaissance music, right through to current in the classicalvein.
Nothing pop, there wasn't pop and jazz in those days at the Academy.
I'm sure there is now.

(14:46):
um But so I was studying what was uncomfortable for people at different points of musicaldevelopment.
So for instance, palestrina, the interval of a fourth had to be prepared from a previouschord.
If you just played a fourth, it would be painful, a bit like an aggressive semitone today.

(15:10):
And I find it quite fun to get the head around what was happening in people's receptivityas we went through the years.
And the rest of it was mainly learning about counterpoint, which is another great interestof mine.
not playing chords, but allowing the parts to create the harmony by the way they flowtogether.

(15:31):
And that's, that was the real interest for me.
And I think it came through in some of the giant stuff um that we had, we weren't playingchords so much as playing individual parts.
And I've always enjoyed that because it's hard for the ear to follow what's happening.
And yet you, find it agreeable.
That's quite nice.

(15:52):
Listening to Bach is quite overwhelming sometimes.
to see all this stuff going on and, how do you do that?
You know, and then it touches something as well as an added bonus.
Yeah, so I think it was, yeah, counterpoint.
What was painful to people at different points and why and how I never really got intocontemporary classical.

(16:17):
That was one thing that, you know, I just couldn't, it always seems to be about angst.
and neurosis of some sort.
The older I get to the more pastoral I need comfort.
So I enjoy harmony rather than aggressive stuff.

(16:41):
But you know, it all depends on the mood, doesn't it?
I'm sure you enjoy listening to lots of different stuff.
And so we're definitely going to come back and talk about counterpoint and the work withGeneral Giant for sure.
I've got that on my list of questions.
But let's talk about how you move from the Royal Academy of Music into actually making aliving out of music, including the formation of General Giant.

(17:07):
So very keen to hear about that phase.
Well, it was pretty miraculous, I'll tell you.
um I had a friend, I come from a tiny village in Dorset, um and I had a friend who wasliving um in Portsmouth, which is where the band Simon Dupree and the Big Sound were from.

(17:29):
And he was calling to pick up his friend who was living with one of the band.
was living in, for extra money, Phil.
Shulman used to have a student staying with him and he was calling to go to the pub withhis friend, overheard them talking about reforming the band to do something more

(17:49):
adventurous musically and said, well, I know a chap who's just done a degree incomposition at the Royal Academy.
Would you be interested in his details?
So I get a call out of the blue from Simon Dupree and the Big Sand who I hadn't heard ofat that point.
A bit embarrassed.
but they came to chat to me and invited me down.

(18:11):
So the whole thing was a total miracle because if he hadn't been calling for his friendand hadn't overheard the conversation, decided to put my name forward, none of it would
have happened for me.
So I don't know.
I don't know what Gentle Giant would have been, but I went down for the audition over apub and the rest is kind of history really.

(18:34):
um
But I do see that as God's hand on me life, because it was such a miracle, that littleconnection.
And I've had such a great time in Johan.
It was such a privilege to be part of.
they drew stuff out of me.
The very fact that I've not done a lot since I left the band is proof of the fact that Ineeded that environment of sometimes tense, because the boys that

(19:04):
brothers didn't always get on really well.
But that was stimulating in some ways, at least they didn't fall asleep when we had groupmeetings, you know.
So yeah, there's a lot of emotion to draw on, shall we say.
And they were just great.
They just always encouraged.
They liked what I did.
And that's very important.
I need people around me.

(19:26):
saying, that's nice care.
Do that again or develop that.
I can't do that on my own.
I just think it's all...
I was all right, I suppose.
So yeah, it was a perfect environment for whatever gift was in me to be brought out.
So I'm very blessed by that.
Looking back on it.

(19:48):
And Kerry, do you remember at that audition, do you remember what you played or what youdid that obviously led to you um successfully joining the band?
Yeah, well, I remember I was confronted by instruments I'd never seen before, aGambeletron and a Hammond, a Hammond organ.

(20:12):
And so I was shot away with the equipment to start off with.
I had gone down with a friend who was a guitarist as well, because there were two posts onoffer, but the guitarist didn't quite fit in, so he didn't join the band in the end.
um Yeah, I was, we just, we just played a few things together and improvised a bit.

(20:36):
And I think probably just from what we were able to produce um was enough to show themthat, you know, I was listening to what they were doing and I could fit in and technically
I was able.
And so, yeah, that's, I think that then we had to go for a pint because we were above apub.

(20:57):
We went down for a pint, the two of us, we'd gone for the interview while they had a chatand went back and we were both offered the job at first, but then after a few weeks the
guitarist decided that he didn't quite fit.
So we had another job then to find Gary and later on we had another job to find drummersand they were all fun.

(21:22):
It's an interesting coin what you make.
what happened to make the...
because you can make some terrible decisions if you're not careful trying to picksomebody.
You don't know much about their personality.
You're just listening to how they play.
And, you know, it's always a tricky moment, it?
Then you burn, by the final new member.

(21:45):
So it was a no-brainer for me because we were on a retainer.
Because of what they'd achieved in Simon Dupree, they were being paid weekly.
So was more or less the national average in terms of income.
And if I turned it down, would be absolutely absurd.
I was, yeah, I was over the moon.

(22:08):
I couldn't agree more.
Absolutely fascinating.
As you know, retainers uh still happen nowadays, but they're more of a rarity than acommonality.
So yeah, it is a no brainer.
I think to an urge extent.
um And Kerry, I'm fascinated, obviously, now that you're in the band and then the sort ofperiod in the lead up to recording that amazing first album.

(22:34):
So how did you gel?
You've just mentioned
that auditioning people is interesting.
It's not just about the way they play, but their personalities and so on.
How did you gel so well in the lead up to recording that amazing first album?
Yeah, the first album was basically our live act.
So we were just playing what we practiced in order to produce concert.

(23:01):
And we had Tony Visconti, of course, as our uh lovely guy, who was just right for us atthat time.
He did the first two albums.
And I think we all enjoyed it.
He enjoyed it, I think.
He's made reference to it.
in some of his interviews, I think as being something that he felt was a good thing to doat that point.

(23:22):
um And, yeah, of course, for me, being in the studio was was phenomenal experience bumpinginto Elton John, who used to be in Simon Dupree and the Big Sound.
I don't know if you knew that.
Simon Dupree and the Big Sound had an organist who was Paulie.

(23:45):
And so
this chap, Reg White, filled the gap for a while.
And then, of course, their keyboard player got better.
So he had to he had to remove himself and go forth and make a career as Elm John, blesshis heart.
uh So we bumped into people in the studios and but yeah, gelling in the studio, I think weall knew we were just having fun, really.

(24:16):
ah It was wonderful and Tony was so good with us.
We enjoyed the studio work very much.
was a lot of experimentation always when we recorded.
I quite often sit and improvise over tracks that were already recorded and they keep bitsof it.
So lots of things were added at the last minute and so on.

(24:41):
Yeah.
And this is probably my first semi-technical question, Kerry.
So do you recall, and it doesn't have to be just that first album, but what were theinstruments you were very familiar with and working with from a keyboard viewpoint of that
stage?
So, I mean, you've mentioned the Hammond, you mentioned the Mellotron, just what werethose key um instruments on that first album in particular?

(25:03):
Yeah, well, those were the first two band instruments that were new to me.
uh I brought with me vibraphone, which was another contribution that I had.
um And I played a bit of guitar and bass.
m But keyboard wise, I suppose playing a proper grand piano with properly mic'd up and soon was a new experience for me.

(25:26):
um And then I think it was acquiring the taste, the second album when
I met the Moog for the first time when you had a wall, a wall of wires and a man tooperate it all.
And you said, can you do me a sound like an oboe, you know, and you find one.

(25:48):
So that was the that was my introduction to that.
um So at the time of the first album, it was mainly just just those two, really the organ,the piano, I think.
I don't remember when I got the word, sir.
I used words on an electric piano a lot.
I like the warmth of it when you're working late at night.

(26:10):
I used to turn the vibrato up and just listen to the fufufufu and it kind of soothingsomehow.
I like the old wordy, but the reeds kept breaking.
I could always tell when it went a little bit flat.
I knew that next gig I'll hit it too hard and it'll be gone.
So I try and order one.

(26:32):
So the Wurlitzer was great and the Clavinet came along.
So that was my stock.
In front of me was Clavinet on top, Wurlitzer and then a Hammond of some sort underneath.
And then on my right, I finished up with a Minimoog on top of whatever electric.

(26:54):
I might have a Fender, Fender Rhodes.
and some other weird things.
But I think as a keyboard player, think I'm a bit disappointing because I never got intoum the technical side of noise production.

(27:14):
And I felt, you know, our stuff could have been a bit more impressive if I got, I'vealways played things in octaves.
I like lunging.
This was a big thing.
I'm a lunger.
And so I would just play something on a different keyboard some nights, you know, for thesake of it and or double up or something.

(27:35):
But nowadays you just have to have everything in place and have the right sound available.
But of course, the kinds of sounds you've got are huge compared to what I had back then.
Yeah.
I know.
Absolutely.
I do want to ask you about the Clavinet though, Kerry, and I hope you find this amusing.
a comment on one of the videos of another interview you did a few years back, someone saidin regards to you and your Clavinet that you're a crazed combination of Stevie Wonder and

(28:06):
Bella Bartok.
What do you say to that?
I find that quite complimentary.
I would agree.
uh seemed to serve everything that was coming out of me.
So if I felt rhythmically, something suddenly spontaneously would come.

(28:28):
It was so percussive that it was right on the front of what I was feeling.
So, you know, it just brought it out of you.
It's all about bringing out what's inside, I find.
I find it really hard to play on instruments that don't respond properly or whatever.
I've struggled with computer music really because I just love live instruments and the wayall the sound comes from everywhere, from a real piano rather than two speakers, you know.

(28:58):
So yeah, the Club Inet definitely suited so many things that were coming out of me andleaves a lot of gaps, which is nice.
You play the note and there's a gap, you know, and it I like gaps.
They're they're they're good.
That's probably a perfect segue Kerry.

(29:19):
You mentioned during your training the importance of counterpoint to you and obviouslyGentle Giant is renowned for that as well.
So I'm particularly interested in the recording of your albums and also live as well howyou collaborated to ensure those amazing, well not just pieces of counterpoint but huge,
you know, sections of counterpoint.

(29:40):
How did you work that up so effectively?
uh
The good thing about counterpoint is if you're playing the notes right and you're in time,it should work.
So, you know, it's important that it's important that the balance is good so that everypart is heard.
And that's obviously the job of whoever's in charge of our sound.

(30:02):
But I think as long as the parts work, it's quite fun putting them on differentinstruments and um as long as they don't go out of range.
It should work.
um So there's a security in it, funnily enough.
Once you know your part, it's quite magical how it all comes together.

(30:23):
um I do love it.
um I ought to write more of it, but it's hard work.
So I tend not to do it so much these days.
um There's a lot of experimentation, find, in making it actually work perfectly.
much easier to play a chord and improvise over the top.

(30:47):
It is now indeed.
And I'm also interested, did you have very strong influences in those earlier days ofGentle Giant in particular, as far as specific composers or styles that really did have a
heavy influence on you?
Yet at the same time as joining the band, I got into early music, Renaissance music andstuff.

(31:07):
So that's when I was very blessed by the work of the chap called David Monroe, who wasdiscovering all those early instruments, the crampons and rebeks and all the weird,
wonderful things.
And the complexity of the rhythm of Renaissance music is...

(31:29):
classical music really smoothed everything out with its arpeggios and scales and evenruns.
The earlier stuff is far more interesting rhythmically.
uh so that was a great influence.
Although I don't think Ray, lovely Ray, who used to do the other half of the writing forthe band, he didn't enjoy my medieval stuff as much as some of the fans did.

(31:56):
He was more of a bar top man.
He liked to stretch things, you know, and he was more angsty.
yeah, it was was I enjoyed the early music.
So that was that was quite a heavy influence at the time.
But the band as a whole tended not to listen to other music very much.

(32:17):
We were quite insular.
um We were living in Portsmouth, not in London.
Because of our schedule, we tended to be quite head down, let's get on.
So I can't say that we were influenced or I didn't feel any influence from other bandsparticularly.
So I was really drawing on what I'd heard at the Academy and the things, the early music.

(32:42):
um Yeah, I remember on the first album in the track Giant, there were some Palestrina typevocals going on.
than drawing on what I'd learnt.
So we're all thieves really, are we?
But there you go.

(33:03):
Absolutely.
No, I love that answer, Kerry.
That's amazing.
And I mean, it's one of the testaments to General Giant's longevity is that ability tobalance those classical influences with rock elements and a whole bunch of other stuff.
do have to ask you, and we've got a valued listener, Matt, who particularly asked me toask you about how you did balance those medieval influences with what was going on during

(33:26):
the 1970s, which, as you know, was an amazing time for music.
How did it feel at the time trying to find, find that balance?
what of introducing early music into that.
Yeah, I think there were quite a few bands doing it at the time.
know, Lindisfarne is it.
I'm trying to think of some of the names Griffith, Griffith was it like, I can't remember.

(33:50):
But there's a lot of bands that were, yeah, and folk as well, of course, which draws onthe modal influences of early music as well.
But I did find the early stuff.
particularly interesting because of the weirdness of the arm.
And I think the 70s were just a gift to the book for a band like ours because you could dowhat you, I mean, we didn't feel any restriction.

(34:18):
The only restrictions we felt were later on when we thought, you know, we could do with abit more success.
And that was when we began to lose our creative edge, I think.
uh
In the early days, we really could draw on anything.
what I really hats off to the lads in the band, that they would take it on and they allenjoyed it.

(34:41):
mean, Gary, out-of-the-box blues player, playing a recorder like a, know, like a travelingtroubadour.
And it's just, and Derek with his gutsy voice, you know, singing falsetto-y stuff.
Yeah, it was a
We just all embraced whatever came along and enjoyed it.

(35:05):
And that's quite something really.
Because normally there's somebody who says, I don't want to do this.
I want to be in a different band now.
It never happened for us.
So that was good.
Yeah, that's one hell of a testament to the chemistry that made up General Giant.

(35:27):
And I do need to ask, I know you supported Black Sabbath at one stage.
I'd love your recollections because I could not think of two more different types ofbands.
What are your recollections of that occasion?
ah Well, it was great really.
Looking back, it was great.
What an opportunity.

(35:48):
Our first gig on the West Coast was the Hollywood Bowl.
although it was a complete mismatch, as you say, it made an impression.
So we were able to go back to the West Coast and sold out the Whisky-a-Go-Go, I think it'scalled, about three nights on the trough.

(36:09):
on the back of what we thought was a complete waste of time where people threwfirecrackers at us on stage.
And all kinds of horrific words came from some of our mouths.
And it was, it's all been, you know, you can't knock it.
It's better to be seen by lots of people somewhere than just a few nerdy people.

(36:34):
You know, there's something about, and they...
You know, they had their own problems at that time.
So some of the gigs were canceled.
So we we were racking up some debt because we were all in hotels and playing the gigs.
having said all that, I mean, I've got more time for them now.

(36:56):
My daughter went to college with Tony Iommi's daughter because he's a local man.
They're all local to me here now in the middle of them.
uh
I've never met them, but I had a drink with Ozzy in a pub in a bar in the States.
I got quite depressed talking to him.

(37:17):
It was quite a depressing conversation.
But hats off, they've done so well with what they know, what they give.
It's wonderful, really.
Yeah.
So, yeah, it was a mismatch, but I think, you know, it gave us a great start.
That was worthy of mention, really.

(37:40):
Yes.
That's probably a nice segue into the live experience.
you know, once you've recorded an album, in your case, you know, more than 10 albums, whatwas the logistical exercise of doing a tour and recreating that music live?
How much rehearsal did you need to do and how did you approach a tour as a general sort ofconcept?

(38:05):
Well, the Shilman brothers were, after the Simon Dupree, think, really were very stageconscious about how to make, how to engage and give yourself to an audience.
indeed, during our times of support, we were often left with about six inches at the frontof the stage, half PA, half the lights, and we would have to give ourselves to the

(38:30):
audience.
It was all about, you know,
really throwing yourself into the performance, putting everything into it andcommunicating with the audience.
And I think that was all the leftover from them that they used to do with Simon Dupree.
So I think we've always been more exciting live.

(38:53):
Because when we recorded our albums, quite often the material was very fresh to us.
So we hadn't perhaps added as much character as we would eventually.
So this is why again, playing the Fall is such a valid release because that's us at ourbest really, when we're really rocking, really know what's coming next.

(39:19):
Whereas so often in the studio you could hear, the drummer didn't quite know what washappening at that point.
But these are lovely little gems now, they're not faults.
So yeah, I think the live performance, the fact that we gave ourselves to it, we wouldrearrange them too.

(39:39):
So we'd link them and we'd create some things that would make them.
And Freehand, which is one of our more known tracks on the album was totally written byme.
um But the live version with all that exciting semi-quaver movement goes on and on.

(40:02):
Parazon um was way, he thought, you know, we don't want to go into a three, four thing ina live situation.
And he wrote that fantastic culmination of that track.
um So, yeah, was, I think it was their gifting of knowing what an audience would want.
um And Ray and Derek and Phil, when he was with us, were very conscious of that.

(40:28):
um
So yeah, I mean, simplified things too.
We thought rather than try and replicate the album perfectly, we'll simplify something sowe can, you know, have, we can jump to something else.
So it was more important to be relaxed and give than to be all, you know, head down andmaking it perfect like the album, which, yeah, I think it worked, hopefully.

(40:59):
People will let us know, won't they?
Absolutely.
That's right.
Well, that segues nicely carry to a question I had was what sort of response were yougetting from the audience?
Because there's the stereotype of progressive type music that you've got people, know,sitting back, you know, massaging their beard, just taking it all in and admiring it.
But were you getting more visceral reactions than that or a little bit of a combination?

(41:22):
Well, it varied so much, David, you know, um like any tour, you know, there's going to begigs that seem to have them completely on your side, the gigs where you wonder if there's
anybody there.
I can remember getting very frustrated on the road because I used to get a little bitdepressed, partly because I was out of my domestic situation.

(41:48):
I'm not a very brave person, but it...
I can remember that sometimes, you know, especially some things like the vibe solo oranything where we wanted to drop the level and the level of sound in the audience would be
so loud that it didn't really, there's no point really.

(42:09):
em I can remember gigs like that and other gigs where you could hear a pin drop and youknow, it just used to vary so much em and I've no idea why.
And it could only be, you know, might have only traveled a hundred miles, but you find acompletely different group of people.
But yeah, there are times when I think the prog rock type people that tend to listenrather than explode with enthusiasm.

(42:39):
There's a few of them around as well.
So you learn to live with it all, don't you?
guess.
Do you?
Yeah, no, absolutely.
I think that's a great, it's a great answer.
No, couldn't agree more.
And um you mentioned that about the, the, the trials and tribulations of touring, as youknow, touring is very, very hard.

(43:02):
um How did you keep as much as you could your chin up and keep motivated across, you know,what might've been a longer tour?
We all had a professional view of it, I think.
We were very good.
Towards most of our touring life, we were five piece rather than six.

(43:22):
So that meant two double rooms and a single.
And we used to spread the single round, you know, although Gary and John used to sharemost of the time.
Seemed to suit them and it was quite right.
em So I think we just used to, you know, know that we had to get through this.

(43:45):
We had to stay on good terms with each other every day.
em And there was enough of a foundation of understanding, I think, um of who we all werethat we coped.
We did cope.
I struggled a bit.
em But yeah, there were always friends as well that were on the road, especially after afew tours.

(44:09):
that you would look forward to seeing in certain towns and so on.
But we weren't rock and rollers, I don't think.
I mean, the nearest to rock and rollers, definitely John and Gary.
They made a good go of it.
um But I'm very middle class and Christian upbringing.

(44:29):
So, you know, I was quite reserved really.
But I always enjoyed moving on.
Funny enough, that was the bit I enjoyed most.
Going on to another place now and just the actual travel of going to somewhere else,somewhere perhaps we haven't been before.
I enjoyed that aspect of it.

(44:49):
I felt very privileged that I got back.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
No, thank you.
That's a great answer.
And I do need to ask, across your touring experiences, was there a time when somethingwent spectacularly wrong that you can look back upon now and laugh about?
Well, there was a time when we couldn't get into our own gig.

(45:10):
That was quite fun.
We had we were the Palais du Sport in Rome, which is a big circular building.
And there were, you know, about 20,000 people had come just for us.
We were headlining and we were so scruffily dressed.
There were lots of different doors to get in.

(45:34):
And we kept going from door to door saying, look, we're the band and we can't get in.
So in the end, they had to call Mark and Mortimer, who was our drummer at the time, whowas inside.
And he came and identified us and we were allowed in.
So that was quite ridiculous.
I couldn't work out quite how we were going to deal with that situation, but we did.

(45:56):
Let me think, is there anything else that went completely wrong?
Whether it was the strike.
There was an airstrike.
had oh the other place where we were quite big was the French speaking part, Canada.
And we had a gigging.
I can't remember if it was Quebec when we had to get to Montreal all the other way round,but the Canadian flights were all canceled from a strike.

(46:21):
And we had to hire a jet, a private jet, which blew the entire income from the gig, ofcourse.
But at least we managed to make it.
Only a few minutes late.
um Any other?
this is where you want.
John and Gary, they'll remember all that.
All the fun things that went wrong.

(46:43):
No, that's okay.
mean, they are both brilliant examples.
I love it.
Yeah.
That's great.
And I do want to talk briefly, Kerry, about after General John, because you've done someamazing stuff since then, and particularly your work on Christian music and educational
projects, including the Reapers.
And so just tell us a little bit about how that developed for you and how that perhaps wasa different creative outlet for you.

(47:09):
Yeah, I mean, it is a different, it was a different world that I moved into.
That was one whereby I'd felt that I wanted to express something of my spiritual leanings,if you like.
um I wanted to serve the God that I was coming to believe in.

(47:30):
My wife and I had both come to that place.
So I decided to help an evangelist and his group.
um that came to our town, so there was a connection made and I did some recording.
It was all about humility really.
I'm just saying that whatever I've done now is not as important to me as singing a threechord simple worship song to the God that I love.

(47:58):
So it was about not finding a pride in what I'd done, but acknowledging the gift andtrying to produce music.
And that's still really where I'm at in a way.
I do love, I play at church.
I belong to a church which allows me to improvise a lot.
And I just like to try to find ways of touching people through just quite gentle playingwhile things are going on.

(48:26):
People are talking, perhaps praying or whatever.
So there's a sense in which the ultimate thing for me is when I've sensed the presence ofGod come because of the notes that I'm
I'm unobtrusively playing in the background, not trying to demand attention.
it, but, touching the soul.
So that's a different game than playing with notes and rhythms and, know, which I'm backto trying.

(48:53):
I am back to that and I love it.
uh, but I, I, I still struggle to be happy with anything that I come up with.
Um, but my daughter is trying to help me to write at the moment.
well, my
You know, both daughters are quite supportive and my son quite likes it too, I think.
Yeah, that's amazing.
I love that sort of well, without without being silly about it, it's sort of acounterpoint.

(49:20):
So that work you've done since is a beautiful counterpoint to the general giant work aswell.
And then I suppose a third aspect is you even helped compose for a video game.
Was that something that forced you to learn new skills or you were just able to apply whatyou already knew?
It was all about Ray overstretching himself.

(49:40):
Because he was doing a lot of that and he had too many to do really.
And so he said, did you mind doing one care?
So I said, all right.
I've never played a video game in my life, so I didn't know what I was up against.
Every time I sent something off, I got it back saying, it's not dark enough, it's not darkenough.

(50:01):
So everything seemed to have too optimistic a streak in it.
He helped me though and we got through it and yeah, it was fun to do it.
It was great to be dealing with Ray again.
I always loved working with Ray and I sometimes wish we could have got together again todo some more creative things for its own sake.

(50:26):
I think both of us had moved on to different types of influences and enjoyments.
So it didn't quite work out in time.
No.
um And the other thing I would love to ask you, Kerry, is just um looking back over yourcareer, which is obviously not complete yet, but what advice would you give to an aspiring

(50:51):
musician who's just starting out and trying to establish themselves in the industry?
Well, I know a few, so I'm trying to think what I say to them.
It's not an easy one because obviously there are ways of doing it without involving thebig companies.
um And you develop yourself online.

(51:15):
And these are things that are beyond me.
We're trying really hard.
My wife Leslie and I are trying to get the old catalogue of Gentle Giant.
available again because we have to send files to the right people for streaming.
You know, it's all got to be done and we don't understand what we're doing and we'rereally struggling.

(51:38):
So if anybody out there fancies helping, we'd be so pleased.
But my advice, I suppose, is just to have that thick skin that makes you keep going andbelieve in what you're doing.
that these are the usual cliches I know, but they're so important to being resilient umand have some faith.

(52:00):
um But yeah, it's a difficult one because I've always been so spoiled.
I've never had to involve myself in the business side of it.
um And by the time I realized it was important, um you know, we'd already establishedourselves because of what

(52:21):
You know, the Shortman brothers have had before the support has always been there, themanagement.
And it's just been an easy ride for me.
I don't know how you do it when you're starting with something that's precious to you andyou're trying to trying to get it off the ground.
It's a tricky one, isn't it?

(52:41):
Really?
But yeah.
it is, but that's still incredibly useful advice and much appreciated.
Now, I'm going to ask you a nearly impossible question, Kerry, because it's hard for anyperson to quantify their own impact.
But as I've already mentioned, you you've been an inspirational influence on so manypeople.

(53:02):
So the impossible question is, what do you believe your impact on music has been?
I don't know.
suppose it is.
I mean, I was trying to work out.
I was trying to think what I might have to say to a question like that.
I know that I enjoy what my hands come up with quite often without knowing what it is.

(53:24):
So when Ray and I used to work on the giant stuff, we would record ourselves because...
You know, we would come up with something spontaneous.
I don't know if you were like this, but I find that quite often I think, well, that was anice whatever I did then.
What was it?
And I can't remember.

(53:45):
So sometimes I think the fact that I wait until I see something in what I've or that's abit special and then try and develop it in a special way.
There's a patience in that.
which can be costly, you know, and a bit depressing at times.

(54:07):
But you finish up with things that are a bit less obvious and formulaic.
And I suppose if I'd like to be remembered for someone who was a little bit like that,that just didn't do what was obvious, but nevertheless carried people where they didn't
expect to go and enjoy it.

(54:30):
I think that's how I'd like to think of my contribution.
That's an amazing answer.
Yeah, no, that's superb.
No, I think that's a really stupendous answer.
That's great.
And, um, Carrie, I do have to ask you the dreaded desert Island discs question.
So if you had to name five albums that you would take to a desert Island, do you know whatthey would be?

(54:52):
Whatever I said today would probably be different tomorrow, know, it's, but definitely besome uh choral music.
just love it.
Yeah, choral music.
Yeah, I just love it.
uh
coral piece that particularly inspires you, Kerry?
Well, yeah, there's one from an American chap called Morton Lauridsen that's called, Ican't think what it's called.

(55:21):
That's okay, I can look that up because I thought what we can do is we can jointly curateyour desert island based on your inspiration.
that's enough for me to put forward an album.
Oh, my, Magnum Mysterium is called and it's a lovely piece.
Okay.
Yeah.
And things like that, you know, that just seem to carry you somewhere without withouttrying to impress you.

(55:48):
I don't like music that's out to impress.
I like music that's out to bless you and touch you and make you realize you're a humanbeing, you know.
There's room for it all.
So I don't know what would I take.
Definitely earring music, definitely some jazz, probably a little bit of jazz.
I like jazz players, mainly the bebop area.

(56:11):
I'm not too fond of when it comes a bit weird.
But when I, yeah, I like all that.
Peterson's a pianist.
What else would I take?
Probably this live album of Gentle Giant to remind me of what fun we had.
Probably.
You know, it's a good idea.

(56:33):
It sounds like we're having fun.
And Kerry, I know we've got to let you go in a minute.
So we usually finish up with what we call our quick fire 10.
So 10 short and sharp questions.
The first one being, do you recall the first album you ever heard that had an impact onyou, whether it was as a child or as a teenager, something that you thought, wow, this is

(56:55):
actually something amazing.
First album, what are the first albums that I would have heard?
Yeah.
Well, I suppose some of the classical records that my mum and dad had, there's a piececalled The Dance Macabre by Saint-Saens.
So I remember being quite engaged in the excitement of that.

(57:21):
is it?
Will it do?
Yeah, no, that is good.
Yeah, that's great.
And the other short and sharp one that we have is um before you play a gig, and I knowyou're not playing live as much, but even your church playing and so on, is there
something you'd like to do before you play to make you feel settled?
Thought-wise you mean or plan-wise?

(57:43):
I didn't buy that,
Yeah, no, I never feel settled.
There's always, there's always, yeah, there's always that risk that everything goespear-shake.
I'm so used to things going wrong uh and trying to rescue a situation rather than it beinga pinnacle of human endeavor.

(58:03):
You know, it's, it's part of what I do now in the circles that I work in.
I do.
Yeah.
I, yeah.
I just trust that there's something in me that will communicate at some point with someonein the next hour or so that I'm playing or whatever.

(58:25):
Yeah.
Just hope that there's some communication.
don't, there's nothing I do.
Great anthem.
No, that's okay.
No, that's great.
And then if you mentioned about how lucky you were about that original audition.
So we always ask if you hadn't been a musician, what do you think your career choice wouldhave been?

(58:46):
Well, I did do teaching.
I did do teaching.
It did drive me mad, though, to be honest.
The fact that kids didn't practice, you you think, you know, most of the work is donebetween the lessons.
ah So the frustrations of teaching were, I quite enjoy driving, but not anymore.

(59:09):
It's the roads are too crowded.
But I do enjoy, I do enjoy just, just, just
Yeah, driving would have been okay, but now I'm glad that I'm still a musician and I don'tknow what else.
not great at anything else really.
Yeah, no, that's great and Kerry if it's possible to pick out one was there a favoritetour you ever did that really stands out in your memory is the best tour that you

(59:38):
completed
When I was in the band, I think when we were in Italy probably, were very...
Apart from the fact that we were working for the Mafia basically, and they very often gotmore than one concert behind in Peanus, which was very annoying after a while.

(01:00:04):
But the places, seeing Italy in a lovely place, it's just...
The old buildings are just fantastic and just enjoyed the old atmosphere.
I remember we had a private party we played at in Italy.
For some reason we were very successful there.
After playing with Jethro Tull, which was such a big, that was a big break for us playingwith Jethro.

(01:00:27):
And we enjoyed the company of the band too.
They were kind of English, but nearest thing to English gentlemen that we could be with.
I do have to ask Kerry, because you've mentioned Jethro Tull, obviously another iconicband, just give us a, if you don't mind a couple of minutes, just talking to us about that

(01:00:49):
relationship and you touring together and so on.
Because as you know, an amazing band like your own.
Yeah, there was a mutual respect, think.
I mean, we loved them.
uh There weren't many bands that I'd hang around for, you know, if we were supporting.
But I often just stood around to watch from the wings.
uh I think they enjoyed our set and the character of Dean with us, Our first encounterwith them...

(01:01:23):
was just after we'd finished a two-month tour of the States, started off with BlackSabbath and finished up with all kinds of odds and ends for people, uh mainly heavy rock.
And just as we were about to come home, we were asked if we would support.
And so how they got hold of us, I don't know, because Derek would know more because he wasmore au fait with what was happening in the background.

(01:01:50):
We suddenly did another month with them.
and that's where the relationships performed and yeah, they were nice to be with and theaudience was so good for us.
Yeah, I could see a great overlap there.

(01:02:10):
thank you.
And another nearly impossible question, another nearly impossible question, Kerry, whichwas if you had to pick one favourite gig that you've done over your whole career, what
would it be?
Is there one that particularly stands out?
No, not really.
Well, we played, we played Anaheim Stadium to about 85,000.

(01:02:36):
That was our, that was our biggest gig, I think.
Yeah.
So that, that was quite impressive.
And then Leslie, my wife and I, em we weren't married at that point, but we went to, wedecided to walk to Disney World.
because we thought there'd be pavements at the side of the roads in America.

(01:03:00):
we walked through the traffic to try to get to Disney World oh and had a lovely time thereas well.
But no, that was the biggest gig.
And so that was a big gig.
And I remember being quite impressed by the size of it.
we were only, we were first on before bands.
it's, you know, it's fine.

(01:03:24):
It was the biggest one we ever did.
It's still 85,000.
Yeah, that's amazing.
right, yeah.
And then there were the gigs that mum and dad came to, of course, when we were touringEngland in the early days.
So they were quite important to me.
Apart from that, I don't know.
I'd have to think.
I'm sorry not to be more.

(01:03:45):
That's okay.
No, no, no, these are hard questions.
And the other one along those lines, is a favourite city.
So is there a city that's particularly memorable to you that you've played?
Yeah, the European tours were always that much more interesting because of the characterand age of them.

(01:04:06):
again, Italy, would bring into this, think.
Rome's obviously a lovely place to have been and played, even if they struggled to get in.
What other cities?
No, nothing's coming.
Italy's as good as anything.
And I do need to say, Kerry, that that mutual respect and love for Italy makes the guyknocking on your window from Italy slightly less weird to me now.

(01:04:36):
Well, you see, we have faded completely from their consciousness.
I'm not aware of any following there now.
We very rarely got royalties from there, even though it was huge.
So that just shows you the corruption that's going on over there.
Yeah.
But it's just a lovely old place.
And they don't knock places down and rebuild in the 60s like we did here.

(01:05:02):
It's horrific.
concrete nothingnesses, you know, it's a nice place to be.
Yeah.
It is.
The next short chart one carries name a song that you used to love, but over your career,you probably played it to death and would happily never play it again.
oh
That's interesting, isn't it?

(01:05:23):
Funny ways.
It's song called Funny Ways.
Sorry.
Were you waiting for me?
No.
Yeah, funny ways.
know funny ways number we're funny ways.
No, that's yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's good.
Be happy not to play that one again.
um Yeah, but you know, they all had their place.

(01:05:45):
We needed a downtime in the set.
that's the role it often played.
No, understood.
And is there a favourite music documentary or movie, Kerry, over recent years or over yourlife that a particular music documentary or movie that resonated with you?

(01:06:05):
Yes.
Jacqueline Dupree.
Have you heard of her?
Yeah, she's a cellist.
She's an amazing cellist um who suffered from a disease which gradually took her um andshe was unable to play.
And the chap who did a film of ours, Chris Newpen, I think he did a documentary on

(01:06:35):
She was going out with Chuck called Daniel Barenborn, he's the German conductor andplayer.
And they got married eventually.
But it was very moving to see.
there's that one.
That was, bless her heart.
She was an amazing, a bit weird, bit of a weird character, but an amazing player.

(01:07:01):
One of those people that when she played her instrument was like...
it was part of her.
That's another cliché, but you know, she was able to express herself so readily throughthe instrument perfectly.
Yeah, it was just a very sad story.
I like sad stories, it seems.

(01:07:25):
And the last one, Kerry, is, there a favourite non-musical activity or hobby?
So what do you like to do that fulfills you outside of music?
uh
I just love walking.
Yeah.
Walking on the hills, walking by the sea, walking.
I like it.

(01:07:46):
Leslie likes it.
We just go and meet up with people and go walking on places and chatting to friends aboutstuff and, and, and that kind of thing.
Yeah.
Anywhere.
Trying to get away from the masses.
That's getting increasingly hard over here.
We are very crowded little island.
and trying to find a little spot to yourself is not always easiest to do.

(01:08:12):
No, it's not.
But what I would say, Kerry, is that there are lots of beautiful islands you've createdfor people through your music.
You've certainly created um lots of peace and harmony and the word you use so beautifully,humility in your own approach to music.
It's certainly had a massive impact.
And I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to chat to us today.

(01:08:36):
And I'm certainly excited to see the remaster of Playing the Fool come out.
I know I've got it on my pre-orders.
But I thank you enough.
Now, I hope you thoroughly enjoy it as I have.
I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
It sounds like they're having fun.

(01:09:00):
And there we have it.
As I said at the start of the show, what an honour and a privilege.
And Kerry just had so many amazing insights and is just a master of his craft and humbleto the point of insanity.
Just loved his approach to music and just what he's done for the music industry morebroadly.
So thank you, Kerry, for your time.
Thank you as always for your time.

(01:09:22):
We always appreciate you listening to our interviews.
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(01:09:42):
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(01:10:06):
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(01:10:28):
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