May 1, 2025 • 44 mins
It begins in the summer haze of the Lake District… and ends in the gritty heart of organised crime. In this episode, bestselling crime author Rachel Lynch and co-host Kristy Horne dive deep into Dark Game, the first book in the DI Kelly Porter series.
From people smuggling and sex trafficking to the emotional weight of cold cases, Rachel unpacks how Dark Game was written in just five weeks, where the inspiration came from, and how she laid the foundations for the series that would go on to sell over a million copies.
Expect no spoilers, just suspense as Rachel and Kristy explore how Kelly Porter’s past in the Met shapes her return home, what makes readers love her flaws and strength, and how the stunning Lake District is used as a chilling backdrop for dark crimes.
Plus, we have some laughs with MasterChef Australia references - you’ll have to tune in to find out.
📖 Reading along? You’re in the right place. Dark Game is the beginning of everything.
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Rachel & Kristy The Killer Storyteller: A Podcast with Rachel Lynch
🎧 Produced by: boxesofnoise
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
So welcome back to the Killer Storyteller podcast with me,
Rachel Lynch, million copy crimefiction author from the UK,
coming to you from London. And thanks so much for joining
us again for this episode. And with me, as always from
Australia, is my Aussie mate, Christy Horn.
Hi, Christy. Hi Rach, how are you?
(00:33):
And you know what, I kind of always want to say G'day because
I actually say that a lot. So I hope it doesn't sound too
Aussie as I've got my Acoubra hat on with my corks dangling in
front of my. Face.
So I'm just so chuffed that you actually really say that.
I actually do say G'day a lot soG'day everyone, it's great to be
here and thanks so much for tuning in and yes I'm coming to
(00:55):
you from Melbourne, Australia, where it's just gotten really
dark here. So it's in the evening time
we're but I am so looking forward to discussing our first
book, Dart game, your first book.
But before we kick off that, Rach, how you going?
It's really great to see you. Yeah, it's, it's brilliant,
Christy. And it's it's morning here.
(01:18):
So we when we record, we try andsort of fit in a time, don't we?
And and this sort of work for it's morning for me, evening for
you. I think you've got the, I think
you've got the harder job because I sort of slow down in
the evening and my, my, most of my writing takes place in the
morning when I'm. Yeah, when I'm fresh.
(01:39):
Definitely by the evening, especially now, I can see it's
dark outside of your windows. I'd be wanting to, you know,
curl up in front of the fire andwatch a crime show on TV.
You know what they say about people who relax by watching
crime? Oh, no.
What is that? It's my job.
Yeah, well, they say that you'rea psychopath if you watch crime
(02:02):
for pleasure as well, so. Well, in saying that, we've just
binged the whole Unforgotten series.
So brilliant. And also, we've just finished
watching DI Ray. Yeah, and I'm not watching any
crime at the moment, although I am watching Mobland, which is
(02:24):
slightly different. It's more sort of organised
crime, isn't it, with Tom Hardy?Yeah, Tom Hardy's new one, it's
very good. And Helen Mirren is like the
matriarch of the mob family and she's brilliant.
She's such a great bitch. I got to tell you something
really awesome that I found out one of my colleagues at work,
she's following along and she's just finished reading book 1 and
(02:48):
she's on to book 2 as well. So we.
Do a. Weekly walk and a walking
meeting at work. And yeah, so she's been telling
me all about book 1, Duck Game. And she said, oh God, it was so
scary. Oh, apologise on my behalf.
Yeah, it is. I think my husband says that's
my grittiest, but I don't know. I don't know about that or.
(03:13):
Maybe it's not. Yeah, we might need a poll.
You know, listeners, what do youthink?
Is it Rachel's grittiest book? Oh, that's awesome.
So how about we crack on with our first book review?
Yeah, it's getting behind the the themes of the the book, but
what all of them aren't we book by book.
(03:35):
And I think that we decided that, you know, each one of them
deserves its own podcast becausethere's, there's so much going
on. And also her life changes
throughout the, you know, throughout the, the journey.
And, and we, we really have to say upfront that, you know, we,
we're trying very hard not to give away any spoilers.
(03:56):
So if you haven't read the book that we're on, you know, we're
not going to share any endings. We're not going to share any
twists, we're just discussing like the themes of the story,
the storylines, the characters, the setting, that sort of thing,
the flavour of that particular book.
Yeah, that's right. So this one is called Dark Game.
When the stakes are high, deadlyprices are paid.
(04:19):
The first time I read this book,Rach was on my phone using
Hoopla or Apple Books. I can't remember what it was,
but I finished it in three days.It was thrilling from start to
finish. Absolutely loved it.
And I've just reread it again and I've made lots of notes in
the book and typed up a whole lot of notes to chat with you.
So I've got like 1 gazillion questions here.
(04:40):
We're going to try and get through as many as we can.
But the story is incredible. I instantly love DI Kelly Porter
and the first few pages are justabsolutely brilliant.
So it had me straight away. What we've got for you guys is a
couple of standard questions we're going to ask Rach each
time for each book. And I think this gives a really
(05:01):
good summary of Rachel and also about the book as well.
So the first one, Rach, is when was this book written?
Yeah. So, well, it's, it's almost 10
years ago now. I I wrote it back in 2016.
Right. And whereabouts where you when
you wrote this book? So all the Kelly Porter's have
been written in Hertfordshire, where I live, which is kind of
(05:25):
in between London and Cambridge,staring out over my garden,
which that's where I get my inspiration from.
All of the books, all of the Kelly Porter books, Right.
OK, great. And how long did it take you to
write this? Book So Dart game took me about
5 weeks to write. Now there is a little story
behind that because that is really quick.
(05:46):
And I think that every writer isdifferent.
So you have people who spend a lot of time on the creation and
then you have people who spend alot of time on editing or a
little time on editing and, and,and that, you know, the whole
process. So the process is different for
everybody. I tend to spend a relatively
short amount of time on the actual creation of the of the
(06:10):
story. So I believe because I I do it
sort of by instinct rather than notes, I kind of get the story
down and I kind of think, well, you can't edit a blank page,
right? So you've got to have something
to edit. So I get the story down so that
doesn't take me very long. And then I start redrafting and
pulling around and playing around once I've got to know the
(06:32):
characters. So yeah, five weeks really
quick. And did you have a plan for the
entire series about DUI Kelly Porter right from the very
beginning? I had when I first got my agent
and my publisher. I had three, so I'd already
written the first three stories.Yeah, because it takes these,
these things take time. You know, getting an agent, it's
(06:53):
very, very competitive out there.
The industry's brutal. I think my agent gets something
in the region of, I don't know, about 40,000 manuscripts a year,
something like that. And he takes on maybe one or two
new clients. So that just gives you an
impression of how difficult it is to get representation in the
(07:14):
industry. Now you can publish without
representation. You can self publish, you can go
direct to somebody like Amazon. But I made the decision a long
time ago that I was going to wait for representation.
So I met my agent in 2016 and bythen I had three Kelly books
ready to go and he said to me this can be a series.
(07:36):
It just so happened that we soldthem in threes to the
publishers. They bought the first three and
then my contracts from then. I've been rolling threes, which
is why I'm up to 12 at the moment.
Fantastic, And each book has a theme.
And what's the theme of this book?
And so it's gritty and dark. It certainly isn't cosy crime.
(07:59):
It touches on things like organised crime, sex
trafficking, prostitution, national and global drug
dealing. Now, taken on their own,
they're, they're really shocking, very topical subjects.
It's only last year that in the Lake District, in a little
village called Ambleside, a hotel was closed down for these
(08:19):
very issues. Yeah, Yeah.
So, you know, when I have had, Ihave been contacted on social
media and said, you know, this, it's it's too dark or, you know,
this, this sort of thing doesn'tgo on.
Well, it does. And we see it in the UK news all
the time about people trafficking.
(08:41):
So I start with a bang, that's for sure.
It's set in the Lake District. Each book not they have
different seasons. So what season is Dart game?
Yeah, Dart games in the summer and I think each book being set
in a different season is really important.
And it and it's it's a part of that particular story that's
going on in dart game. It is about the people
(09:03):
trafficking behind the transienttourism population.
So it had to be the summer, that's when the hotels are most
busy and that's when where my a few of my main characters, the
three girls who are illegal workers and they've come to to
make money during the summer season.
(09:24):
So that was really important. All right guys, we have got some
reader point of view questions for Rachel right now from Dart
Game. Rachel as a reader, we get so
invested in Kelly's journey, herreturn, her return to the Lake
District, her past with the met and met the twat and her
relationship. Sorry, just love saying that.
I'm going to keep saying it. What do you think it is about
(09:46):
Kelly that makes readers connectwith her so strongly?
Yeah, I mean, I I think it's herback story.
You know, she's, she's normal. She she fails and she picks
herself up and she brushes herself off and she has worries
and needs that are just like anybody else's.
And and she's got a story, you know, she doesn't come to Dark
(10:07):
Game as a blank page. She's already lived a life and
not only in Cumbria where she grew up, but, but she's lived a
life in London as well because she learnt, she studied to be a
detective in the Met. So in Dark Game we meet her as
as coming home a bit with a tailbetween her legs because Matt
(10:27):
the twat was not only a lover but also her boss, which, you
know, we know that those things don't usually mix.
So it's a bit bit of a push and a pull.
You know, she's been pushed awayfrom London because it didn't
quite go as she expected. Matt the twat really threw her
under the bus, but she's also been pulled back home because
her dad's died. So, you know, I really think
(10:50):
it's, it's her normality. She's relatable.
Throughout Dark Game Rach, there's a real sense that the
sleepy towns in the Lake District are hiding dark
secrets. What role do you think the
setting plays in creating a sense of unease for the reader?
I just think that it lends itself absolutely perfectly to a
crime series. You know, you've got the Moody
(11:12):
weather, you've got the hiding places.
I mean, I go back every year andbecause I, like I said earlier,
I live in Hertfordshire now, butI go back every year and I
always find places that surpriseme.
And I've been walking there since I could walk literally, I
think I, I went up Scarfeld Pikewhen I was about 10 years old
(11:37):
and I still walk past like abandoned shepherd's huts and
think, oh, I could hide A body in there.
And that's what I love about it is so beautiful and so dramatic
and striking and it and it, and I think, don't quote me, I think
that they have 18,000,000 visitors a year because it's now
(12:00):
a UNESCO World Heritage site as of 2017 as well.
That's a lot of people, you know, it is that beautiful.
It's, it's gorgeous. And so to me, the idea of this,
well, what could go wrong? What's the underbelly underneath
it? And I think that's what freaks
people out because, you know, they're buying toffee in, in
(12:22):
cartmole or famous gingerbread in grassmere.
But 2 miles away there's been a hideous murder.
So I love that juxtaposition. And, and, and it's, it's, I
think it lends itself to secrets, to the wilderness, to
mystery, to hiding reality. So that's, that's yeah, that
(12:42):
that's, that's what what drew meto it initially.
I just have to ask you this question about the twists in the
book. And if you're reading along,
there's a a great twist between a couple of the characters.
How did you balance, like, keeping readers on the edge of
their seats while still planting, you know, clues that
they might catch? So I found rereading the books
that I picked up on a few things.
(13:03):
I think that this is where my earlier sort of strategy that I
touched on comes in, because when you went well, when I, I
mean, I can only speak for myself.
I know that I've got lots of friends who are writers who plan
a lot, and then lots of friends who are writers who don't plan
so much and they're more like me.
(13:24):
And they just sort of, you know,get it on the page and then they
edit. So with that model, what happens
is I find is that you get the story down and you create these
characters. And I've got to say, I do
really, really love perhaps too much creating baddies.
And it's, it's not, it's not a spoiler to say that, you know,
(13:45):
Marco and Teresa Jolliffe and and Darren Beckett are, are
baddies. You know, they're, they're
really vile people. Now, you know, we could talk
forever about why they're vile and, and, but that for the
purposes of a crime novel, it doesn't matter.
You've got, you've got to have your vile people.
But they're particularly nasty, aren't they?
(14:05):
And I think that if. Darren is.
Oh, yeah. And, and The thing is that
they're, they're all, they're very selfish, aren't they?
They're, they're all doing what they're doing for their own
gain. So, you know, Marco is the
kingpin, isn't he? He's the one who's running it
all. And none of these are spoilers.
(14:26):
Teresa is, is kind of the brains, isn't she?
But she's always walking a tightrope because she's the
beauty as well. And then Darren is the sort of
get things done guy, but he's souseless.
He screws up and he doesn't get anything done and he's just an
absolute idiot. So he's like the small town
criminal, isn't he? But The thing is that I didn't
(14:47):
get to know any of these things until I'd written it.
And then I started to chew over and I literally, I go for walks,
walk the dog, I walk around and I, you know, I cook and I'm
thinking about it. I go to bed and I'm thinking
about it. I'll be driving and I'll be
thinking about it. And it's only these chewing over
processes where I think that'd be a good twist.
(15:10):
And you can't deliver your twisttoo early.
You've got to be fully cooked twists, and so you've got to
cook them first, and then you'vegot to go back and insert them.
That's what I do. They don't come, as you know, as
I'm writing the first draught. I think you'd have to be a bona
fide genius for that for that tohappen organically, you know, So
(15:32):
the twists are are worked on andthey come from the characters.
The twist that I'm talking about, you'll have to read the
book and you might already be you might already be up to speed
on what we're talking about here, but that's an absolute
Ripper. I'm going to scroll right down
to this next question here, Rach.
It's question 6 on your screen there.
So we've got the show notes guys, so we can both see what
(15:53):
we're talking about, but you open Dark Game with such a bang.
Those first few pages for me were utterly gripping.
Couldn't read through them quickenough.
What was your intention with that powerful opening first
book? First couple of pages, it's just
so much information really to hook the readers in.
Sounds like a really stupid question now that I'm asking it,
(16:15):
but. Yeah, I think it had to be
because, you know, this was that, that it wasn't like you
say, it wasn't just the first chapter in a book.
It was the first time people were meeting Kelly.
So, you know, decisions are going to be made on whether
readers are going to take her forward or not.
(16:36):
You know, the, the, the, the market is so busy at the moment.
There are hundreds, if not thousands of detectives out
there, hundreds if not thousandsof crime books out there at the
moment. It's a really popular genre, so
she that there had to be some things that were that were
hooking straight away. So obviously the case is one of
(16:57):
them. That's the obvious one.
That's where most crime is is differentiated.
But she had to be hooking too. And I think that her, her, her,
her worries about fitting in andher worries about doing her job
properly, but also her worries about her personal life too.
(17:17):
So it had to be a combination ofreally explosive moments that
drew people in. But having said that, I think
that it's important for all books to start like that.
So I after that game I did get in, I sort of have that as a, as
a style now where, you know, I start with something pretty
(17:40):
shocking. Without giving anything away,
the, the opening of Bitter edge #4 comes to comes to mind with
the, the young girl standing on the edge of the Cliff.
So I think it's really, really important that that those first
few pages and, and, and it's andit's not a coincidence that when
agents and publishers are looking at your work, they only
(18:02):
want the first 3 chapters to read.
Oh, is that right? There you go.
This book, Duck Game, weaves together people smuggling, child
abduction, sex trafficking, offshore money laundering, and
more. How did you go about approaching
and crafting such a complex plot?
Yeah, I guess. Well, I think it was organic
(18:22):
really, because when you're talking about organised crime
you've got to have layers of people.
So you there's always got to be somebody at the top and there's
got to be somebody at the bottomand there's got to be lots of
shades of different people in between.
So a successful organised crime racket is going to be national,
(18:43):
it's going to be global. And I had the Workington port
there in in, in northwest Cumbria and you've got the Isle
of Man Connection, which is a tax haven that lent into it as
well. My husband at the time was
working for fraud at a big bank,so I learnt a lot from him about
money laundering at the time. I don't know if you remember,
(19:05):
but there was a big story about the Azerbaijan laundromat that
was going on. That was, you know, back in
2016, the banks were all really paranoid about where their money
was going, whether it was being used, whether they were being
used to clean money globally. And a lot of them were fined.
And this is when, you know, fraud and values and standards
(19:30):
really changed in big banks, youknow, they were held to account
for all this stuff. So there was a lot online to,
to, to research. It was all there and all of the
pieces. And then I had to just put
different characters in different layers.
And so I had my local characterswho are the people on the
ground, you know, doing the horrible things.
(19:52):
Then I had like a guy in prison,for example, which again is
really realistic because they can still run organised from
prison. So I interviewed prison
officers, I interviewed a governor, I interviewed some
really interesting people. And like I said, you know, my
husband helped with financial crime because you've got to,
they're doing it for a reason. And usually crime is done
(20:14):
unless, you know, you take your serial killing psychopaths out
of it. Most crime is done for sex or
money, and in that game it's money.
And there's a few people who aregetting very rich off these
horrible, horrible industries. We'll get to some of those in a
moment, but I was going to ask you, we touched on this in a in
(20:34):
a earlier podcast, but Kelly Porter returns to her hometown
under a bit of a cloud. How much does that personal
baggage shape who she is as a detective in the first book?
Because it's quite important, isn't it?
Yeah, definitely. So I think that, you know, in
Dark game, we, we meet her a real crossroads in her life.
And again, I think to start a series that's a, that's a really
(20:58):
fantastic way to start because you're then as a reader, you
know that you're going to go on this journey with her.
It's not just a Tuesday afternoon and she's just getting
on with her job and she's sat ather desk trawling through cases.
You're actually starting at a really important moment of her
life where she's she's had this.She had great hopes for the Met
(21:21):
in London. She was part of this huge murder
squad, really cutting edge stuff.
She was at the, you know, at thetop of her game.
Then things went bad because of Matt Twat would get him in there
again. Just say that a few more times.
And, and, and so, you know, she's she's, she is coming home
under a cloud. And, and, and so you've got lots
of questions as a reader. How's she going to fit in?
(21:45):
Is she going to cope? What's she going to do to
reinvent herself? So as a reader, you're really,
really there at the beginning of, of her reinvention.
And I like, I really like that Iwas drawn to that as a as a
writer. For those that have read Dark
Game, you'll know that at the heart of it is the case of
Lottie Davis. And, and we talked about this
(22:08):
briefly in a in an earlier podcast, but this is central to
this book. It's haunting, this storyline
rage. I'm really keen to know what
drew you to writing about such atragic crime and how did it
shape the emotional tone of the story?
I think when, when I'm writing acrime book, any, any of my crime
(22:31):
books, it could be a Kelly or itcould be one of my standalones.
I really believe that for any human story you need light and
shade and, and it's got to be a gentle touch between the two of
them because we've got to have contrast.
And so the case of Lottie is devastatingly awful.
(22:54):
But what it allowed me to do wasit allowed me to take Kelly to
her mother's house and, and sit in her living room and look at
Lottie's portrait on the wall. And so, so you're, you're
balancing the, the, the, the, just, I'm almost speechless.
(23:15):
The, the, the, the, the terriblethings that happened to this 10
year old girl. You're balancing that with the,
the, the most wonderful part of humanity, which is Kelly wanting
to reach out to Jenny, her mother, and, and catch the shit
that did this. And, and that.
That is where the story is. That is only where the story is,
(23:40):
is Kelly's need to do good. And I thought that this story
really encapsulated that. And it just started like any of
these ideas do. Little girl, red dress,
abduction in the middle of nowhere, watching Eagles.
And then I thought, right mother, how would mother feel
it? Obviously, without giving too
(24:02):
much away, as you can imagine, it devastated the family.
And then insert this detective who you know, because this,
let's face it, this case has been dropped, you know, and at
the end of that game, you know why it was dropped and who
perhaps had a hand in making it get dropped.
However, for Kelly new from the Met, she doesn't know why it's
(24:25):
been dropped. She doesn't.
She just wants to get to the bottom of this horrendous case.
And she's like, why is this casebeing dropped?
I'm going to look into this. That's how she meets the mother.
That's how she gets to know the story of how Lottie was watching
eagles with her family. And so it enables you to insert
this huge amount of emotion intoa really horrible story.
(24:49):
And I think if crime books are just about the crime, then
there's no room for that humanity.
So that I believe that my crime books need that light and shade
and so enabled me to do that. And we see that Rach with also
the setting between the Lake District and like the dark,
(25:11):
gritty crime against the the storyline.
At the same time. That must be fun to kind of
write as well, because you in your mind you're you see it, the
beautiful, the beauty in the thedistrict as well, the lakes.
Yeah, absolutely. And every time I mean, you,
we're recording this as well, aren't we?
On, on, you know, and hopefully this is this, this visual will
(25:34):
be out on YouTube. And you can see behind me, I've
got a map of the Lake District on my wall.
And so, you know, I just have tosort of scoop back there and I'm
there. I'm a very visual writer.
So these images are always flashing through my head when
I'm writing about them, and it doesn't matter where I am in the
Lake District. It could be, you know, just the
(25:55):
Alls Water way, for example, which stretches the whole of
Alls Water. But if you're on your own on
that track and the lights fadingand your mobile phone's not
working and you come across the forest and there's no way around
it, you've got to go through it straight away, They.
The Beat. And the tranquilly and the, you
(26:16):
know, the UNESCO World Heritage Site status kind of goes out the
window. You've got yourself quiet story.
So yeah, I love that juxtaposition about it.
One of my favourite characters in this book is Ted Wallace, the
chief coroner for the the Northwest, who's been a coroner
for 40 years. There's a story, there's a the
autopsy scene in this book. It's just so authentic.
(26:40):
Haven't been to an autopsy, mindyou, but what kind of research
goes into making scenes like this feel really authentic
without overwhelming the readers?
I personally loved it. Yeah, I, I, I love it as well.
And I think you can probably tell.
And, you know, and again, all, all crime fiction, that's why
there's always somebody for something for everybody.
(27:01):
You know, there's room for everybody's style.
Mine is very much inclusive of the autopsy.
And you know, Ted is a really important character and, and
he's, he's still with me on Book13.
So Ted's work is really integralto, to Kelly's investigations.
(27:22):
And I always have autopsy scenes.
And my publisher has actually said to me, can you write a
series just on him? Really.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They, they want a car in a
series because, you know, they, they, yeah.
Those, those scenes are just so juicy and it's amazing what you
can find online. I mean, I've spoken to funeral
(27:45):
directors, I've spoken to, yeah,Mortuary technicians.
I would love to go and watch an autopsy for real because I've
got quite a strong, strong stomach.
But I, I don't, I haven't had the opportunity.
I nearly did. And then COVID hit and they,
they. Yeah, yeah.
So I'd like to organise that. But it's amazing what you can
(28:05):
find online. So I watched one which you
couldn't see what, what the pathologist was doing.
You could just see his head and shoulders.
And he was actually telling you,is talking you through what he
was doing. Yeah.
You can, you can research anything really.
I mean, I'm amazed that the police have knocked at my door
and tried to arrest me or I've Googled.
(28:27):
They must, they must be on some watch list.
And then they must go on. She's a crime writer.
She's a psycho. Number alone.
What about Incognito? Is that he is Google Incognito?
Oh. I don't know.
Yeah, maybe I could switch her on.
Well, I'm worried now. It's I love Kelly's
relationships in Dark Game. It's the first book, so it's
(28:50):
setting the scene with her mum, her sister, you know, her new
romance in Johnny. There's so many layers here and
it's also really raw as well. Kelly's such a complex person,
why was it important to show hervulnerability alongside her
toughness in Dark Game? I think again, it's the light
and shade, you know, it's the, the good and the bad, the light
(29:13):
and the dark. It's and also to make her
relatable because she's got to be 3456 dimensional.
She can't just be two-dimensional.
She can't just be this detectivewho solves crime.
It's just not good enough. It's not interesting enough and
it's not real. And I think that, you know,
Kelly's relatable because she's,she's quite ordinary.
(29:35):
She has the same desires and same needs.
And so it was actually a conversation with my agent about
Kelly's family because my, I'm really lucky to have the agent
that I've got. Peter Bookman has been in the
industry for a long time. I mean, he started working for
Penguin in his 20s in New York, and he's now in his 80s.
(29:57):
So he's been in this industry, yeah, for 60 years.
And, and I feel so lucky that I met him.
He's, he's incredible. And we were having a chat about
Kelly's family once he'd read the first couple of of books and
he was he, he actually, I think at the time, you know, Kelly's
(30:17):
family wasn't quite as dysfunctional.
And I think he, he, it was his sort of nudge.
And he said, you know, perhaps make her give her a few
problems, more problems in her family can make a bit realer
because, you know, we, I don't think anybody has the perfect
family. There's always tension.
So I thought, oh, yeah, that's areally good point.
(30:38):
Actually. Maybe she's a bit too perfect.
So that's where the tension camefrom.
And that's what planted the seedabout, you know, maybe your
father was this incredible detective.
Sorry, he wasn't a detective. He was in uniform, but he was an
incredible policeman. But it was a bit of an
authoritarian at home. You know, she's got this sister,
and they used to be close, but now they're not because they're
(30:59):
so different. You know, she left.
She doesn't want children, whereas Nikis had three
children, and she stayed. And she's perhaps resentful
because, you know, she shouldered a lot of the illness
of her father. So, you know, there's, there's
real tension there. And also you've got this lovely
dynamic of golden bollocks coming home, you know, Joseph
and is an amazing technicolour coat returning, you know, the
(31:20):
prodigal daughter. Oh, Kelly's home.
Nikki's not going to like that. So there's lovely tension there
as well. And there's tension with her mum
because, you know, Wendy is veryold fashioned.
She's got this 36 year old daughter come in and, you know,
trashing her house and staying out all hours.
And she's I'll as well as we find out in in dark games.
So you know that I think that tension is, without being too
(31:44):
heavy on it, it's just normal. Kelly's got more going on in her
life than these awful cases, which is normal.
And the relation, the relationship that she has with
her mum is, is really interesting as she comes home
and she said that she moved intothe family home before she gets
her new place. And then also her not giving any
spoilers away here, but her mum's a bit sick.
(32:06):
So yeah, she's it's a really interesting relationship there.
She wants to be, you know, goingout and enjoying herself and not
bringing home any men. Yeah, you know, she's and she's
torn in different directions, isn't she?
She's most grown woman. She's not 14.
And I think sometimes Wendy treats her like she's 14 and
she's not. And so there's another sort of
(32:26):
stress in her life. And I think that Johnny provides
real relief to that because he'son many levels is quite simple.
You know, he's a volunteer for the mountain rescue.
It's clearly financially OK to be able to do that, although she
hasn't found out how he makes his money yet, you know, and
(32:47):
he's very casual and, and, and pretty chilled and she needs
that. She really needs that.
So that's, that's another lovelyaddition, I think to her
dynamic. Dark Game has many, many
different type of storylines that kind of beautifully weave
together. There's some epic twists in this
book as well with Marco and Sasha and and Teresa Jolliff.
(33:09):
The question is, did you always know how it would end or did the
twist evolve as you wrote it? Interested to know that I.
Think, I think a combination of both.
So I think when I when I start astory, I usually know how it
ends because that's how I start.I start with the, the big sort
(33:31):
of finale in my head. So what is it that's actually
happened? I know, and, and everyone's
different, you know, all writersare different, but I, I start
with, oh, wouldn't it be amazingif, and then I create the
characters and then I, I build up to that and, and, and, and,
and as that process goes along, you always find that things
(33:53):
change and twists come and go and characters slightly change
and, and maybe even your ending changes.
So there's a few sort of side plots in Dark games.
So for example, in the opening chapters, you know, we find that
a little newborn baby has actually been found abandoned.
Baby Dale. Yeah, Baby Dale and they name
him Baby Dale because they don'topen years.
(34:14):
And he was found in Patterdale, which is a gorgeous little
village at the foot of one of myfavourite climes, which is Place
Fell. And there's a red a white lion
pub at the the beginning of the walk which on it.
Yeah, for that area, loads of campers and the green LED slate.
Mine is actually a real mine where baby Dale was found.
So you know that all of these places are really in my head and
(34:38):
I've been to all of them and it's really isolated.
There's a there's a really fast rushing beck that goes right by
the mine. So, you know, I can hear the
rushing water and it would have been really awful with baby
being abandoned. But we, you know, we find out
why. So that family dynamic played a
big part, I think as we went through the book then I
(34:59):
originally anticipated, but yeah, so it so it does develop
organically, but I normally start with the main deed.
Who did it? Why did we do it?
Because I don't think all crime has to be a whodunnit.
Sometimes it's I think dart gameis more of a why done it do
actually meet a lot of the baddies along the way.
(35:20):
So you do kind of know what they're doing and who's doing
it. So it's more of a why done it
and and and in who's going to solve it that makes.
There's one little scene in DartGame where Kelly's mum is
involved in, incidentally, in assisting somebody to, yeah,
(35:41):
baby Dale's mum to get out of the public toilet.
You'll have to read the book to know what I'm talking about, but
I love that little twist there. So that's not giving away
anything, guys. But that's a that's a really,
really cool way that you weaved her mum into that storyline.
That was so, so clever. I really love writing that.
Yeah, because it just shows so much about Wendy, doesn't it?
(36:04):
You introduce Kelly's new team in this book and she's got such
a lovely team around her and we get to know them as we read
through the the books. But how did you go about
building the dynamic between them?
Who should we be keeping an eye on as the series progresses
without giving away anything there?
Yeah, I, I think that as any team, I think you need a little
(36:25):
bit of everything, don't you? And so for the, for the purposes
of a story, you can't have, you know, 5 people who are doing all
of the same things and have got the same characters.
So, you know, you've got young Emma, Emma Hyde, who, you know,
she's really clever, very intelligent and she's a thinker.
(36:47):
You know, she's, she's kind of Kelly's thinker and she comes up
with some, you know, really interesting hypotheses.
And then you've got the older and wiser Kate, I'm sure, who is
Kelly's second in command, brings a very different flavour
to the team and safe pair of hands.
And she's a plodder, you know, she gets the work done and Kelly
(37:10):
can rely on her. And she's also got a wealth of
experience personally because she's got three teenage
daughters, you know. And then you have Dan and and
there's, there's there's anotherman who who comes in a bit later
called called Rob. You've got Will Phillips in dark
(37:32):
game as well. So you know, and and he's, he's
very experienced. He he's a bit sort of rough
around the edges. One of those, one of those
detectives who kind of throws his whole world into the cases.
And, and actually to answer yourquestion, you know, all of them
go through and develop in their different ways.
(37:53):
And I kind of bring in an interesting sideline on one at a
time with each book. So on one of them it might be
Will Phillips back story and what happens to him.
And another one I look a bit closer to Emma.
And then you've got the new guy down and the new guy Rob.
(38:13):
And so they go on. And I also in the books develop
Kate and Kelly's relationship because that's a really, that's
a blossoming friendship that Kelly really needs.
She needs people rely on. So and then obviously outside of
the the crime team, you've got Ted.
So Kelly and Ted's relationship blossoms as well.
(38:36):
And he's about the same ages as John Porter, her father.
So, you know, she kind of looks to him as a, as a bit of a
father figure without her realising it.
She doesn't do it on purpose. I think they've just got a
relationship. Love the way that that
relationship blossoms and you can see it as it progresses
through the book. One thing I wanted to say was
about Rob Shawcross. I've been keeping a cast list of
(38:59):
all of the some going through all the books and kind of making
my own little mud map. Rob Shawcross.
He's got a wife called Mia. Yeah, Mia loves to discuss the
the crime cases with Rob when hegets home from work, but what
gets put out on the media by Kelly and what the the public
know about the cases are obviously different to what's
(39:20):
known inside the incident room. Like me is like trying to solve
the case for Rob, it's she's so far off the mark.
From what she's seen on the news, yeah.
Yeah. That was really, really clever.
I love the way you did that withhis wife.
That was really, really funny. And I bet that goes on right?
Because because we such a different story, don't we?
(39:43):
What they decide to remove to the press.
Hey, we're just about coming up to our final question here in
Dark Game. I've got something absolutely
hilarious to ask you, Rach, but this is such a fantastic it's
the first book in this series. Really loved it, and I loved it
even more when I've just finished rereading it.
But there's something I have to ask you, Rach.
(40:05):
It's about MasterChef Australia and the the MasterChef Australia
reference. This was just so, so funny when
I got to this part in the book. I loved reading it then when
Darren was watching MasterChef Australia.
And then I think he went to LoveIsland something.
(40:28):
But Tim Bone, who is on MasterChef, he's also a friend
of ours. You know, if you're listening,
you know, you will really love this.
Tim Bone's on MasterChef Australia, so he's a great guy.
But. That was that was an absolute in
Australian Aussie slang pisser. Oh, brilliant.
I mean, he had to watch something, didn't he?
(40:50):
And you know, he's, he's in thisflat and he's a bit bored and
he's taking some drugs and he's like, oh, he's fucking around
the TV. And that's Chef Australia comes
on. I mean, I had to make it
something. And I and I am officially OK.
I even trump you on this. I am master Chef Australia's
biggest fan ever globally. I mean, it's indisputable.
We're not even going to discuss it.
(41:12):
And when when I saw that that Tim Bone was actually on back to
win this series, which is starting soon, isn't it?
Oh my God. So I love, I love that I love
being able to just sort of put in a little sprinkle of what I
might be doing because I could just imagine him, you know, this
(41:35):
like horrendous guy who is just the the yes man for this awful
sort of organised crime Lord. And and he's, you know, he's
watching something so normal andentertaining as as my chef
Australia is just it was just a lovely moment and I couldn't
resist and I had to make it my favourite programme ever.
(41:59):
Good luck Tim. Back to win, yes.
All right, well, when you come out to Australia, Rach, we'll
take a road trip to go and visitTim.
He's got his own shop now. He's just opened up Tim's
Toasties. Oh wow.
We are absolutely epic. We could we could do another
whole hour on Tim's toasties. So.
And we could do another whole hour on the Adelaide Book
(42:20):
Festival as well, couldn't we? I'm hoping to actually come out
there in, in early 2026 and see you guys and make it come inside
with the the Book Festival and hopefully, yeah, get stocked up
and maybe do a few talks. That'd be amazing.
Thanks, Christy. It's been an amazing episode,
(42:40):
hasn't it? It's been really good to get
into, you know, the the deep bones of of Dark game and the
first in the series, the first in the series of 12, soon to be
thirteen. I've loved it.
I've loved speaking to you aboutit.
And thank you so much for such incredible questions and taking
questions from, you know, socialmedia as well and seeing what
(43:00):
you know, other readers saying. The next book that we'll be
diving into is Deep Fear, which is book #2 so if you haven't
read it but now, then you can follow along with us on the next
episode. We'd love to hear from you where
you're up to in the series. Of course, we won't be giving
away any spoilers, so anybody can join in at any time.
And remember, you can listen to us on Spotify, YouTube, YouTube
(43:22):
Music, and also be sure to subscribe so you never miss that
episode. That's amazing.
Thank you, Christy. And if you've got any thoughts
on what we've been talking abouttoday, today's chat, drop us a
line and we'll we'll take your questions.
We'd love to hear from you. Sounds great.
All right, Ray, good to see you.We'll see you again soon, and
thanks so much for listening. See you next time.
So welcome back to the Killer Storyteller podcast with me,
Rachel Lynch, million copy crimefiction author from the UK,
coming to you from London. And thanks so much for joining
us again for this episode. And with me, as always from
Australia, is my Aussie mate, Christy Horn.
Hi, Christy. Hi Rach, how are you?
(00:33):
And you know what, I kind of always want to say G'day because
I actually say that a lot. So I hope it doesn't sound too
Aussie as I've got my Acoubra hat on with my corks dangling in
front of my. Face.
So I'm just so chuffed that you actually really say that.
I actually do say G'day a lot soG'day everyone, it's great to be
here and thanks so much for tuning in and yes I'm coming to
(00:55):
you from Melbourne, Australia, where it's just gotten really
dark here. So it's in the evening time
we're but I am so looking forward to discussing our first
book, Dart game, your first book.
But before we kick off that, Rach, how you going?
It's really great to see you. Yeah, it's, it's brilliant,
Christy. And it's it's morning here.
(01:18):
So we when we record, we try andsort of fit in a time, don't we?
And and this sort of work for it's morning for me, evening for
you. I think you've got the, I think
you've got the harder job because I sort of slow down in
the evening and my, my, most of my writing takes place in the
morning when I'm. Yeah, when I'm fresh.
(01:39):
Definitely by the evening, especially now, I can see it's
dark outside of your windows. I'd be wanting to, you know,
curl up in front of the fire andwatch a crime show on TV.
You know what they say about people who relax by watching
crime? Oh, no.
What is that? It's my job.
Yeah, well, they say that you'rea psychopath if you watch crime
(02:02):
for pleasure as well, so. Well, in saying that, we've just
binged the whole Unforgotten series.
So brilliant. And also, we've just finished
watching DI Ray. Yeah, and I'm not watching any
crime at the moment, although I am watching Mobland, which is
(02:24):
slightly different. It's more sort of organised
crime, isn't it, with Tom Hardy?Yeah, Tom Hardy's new one, it's
very good. And Helen Mirren is like the
matriarch of the mob family and she's brilliant.
She's such a great bitch. I got to tell you something
really awesome that I found out one of my colleagues at work,
she's following along and she's just finished reading book 1 and
(02:48):
she's on to book 2 as well. So we.
Do a. Weekly walk and a walking
meeting at work. And yeah, so she's been telling
me all about book 1, Duck Game. And she said, oh God, it was so
scary. Oh, apologise on my behalf.
Yeah, it is. I think my husband says that's
my grittiest, but I don't know. I don't know about that or.
(03:13):
Maybe it's not. Yeah, we might need a poll.
You know, listeners, what do youthink?
Is it Rachel's grittiest book? Oh, that's awesome.
So how about we crack on with our first book review?
Yeah, it's getting behind the the themes of the the book, but
what all of them aren't we book by book.
(03:35):
And I think that we decided that, you know, each one of them
deserves its own podcast becausethere's, there's so much going
on. And also her life changes
throughout the, you know, throughout the, the journey.
And, and we, we really have to say upfront that, you know, we,
we're trying very hard not to give away any spoilers.
(03:56):
So if you haven't read the book that we're on, you know, we're
not going to share any endings. We're not going to share any
twists, we're just discussing like the themes of the story,
the storylines, the characters, the setting, that sort of thing,
the flavour of that particular book.
Yeah, that's right. So this one is called Dark Game.
When the stakes are high, deadlyprices are paid.
(04:19):
The first time I read this book,Rach was on my phone using
Hoopla or Apple Books. I can't remember what it was,
but I finished it in three days.It was thrilling from start to
finish. Absolutely loved it.
And I've just reread it again and I've made lots of notes in
the book and typed up a whole lot of notes to chat with you.
So I've got like 1 gazillion questions here.
(04:40):
We're going to try and get through as many as we can.
But the story is incredible. I instantly love DI Kelly Porter
and the first few pages are justabsolutely brilliant.
So it had me straight away. What we've got for you guys is a
couple of standard questions we're going to ask Rach each
time for each book. And I think this gives a really
(05:01):
good summary of Rachel and also about the book as well.
So the first one, Rach, is when was this book written?
Yeah. So, well, it's, it's almost 10
years ago now. I I wrote it back in 2016.
Right. And whereabouts where you when
you wrote this book? So all the Kelly Porter's have
been written in Hertfordshire, where I live, which is kind of
(05:25):
in between London and Cambridge,staring out over my garden,
which that's where I get my inspiration from.
All of the books, all of the Kelly Porter books, Right.
OK, great. And how long did it take you to
write this? Book So Dart game took me about
5 weeks to write. Now there is a little story
behind that because that is really quick.
(05:46):
And I think that every writer isdifferent.
So you have people who spend a lot of time on the creation and
then you have people who spend alot of time on editing or a
little time on editing and, and,and that, you know, the whole
process. So the process is different for
everybody. I tend to spend a relatively
short amount of time on the actual creation of the of the
(06:10):
story. So I believe because I I do it
sort of by instinct rather than notes, I kind of get the story
down and I kind of think, well, you can't edit a blank page,
right? So you've got to have something
to edit. So I get the story down so that
doesn't take me very long. And then I start redrafting and
pulling around and playing around once I've got to know the
(06:32):
characters. So yeah, five weeks really
quick. And did you have a plan for the
entire series about DUI Kelly Porter right from the very
beginning? I had when I first got my agent
and my publisher. I had three, so I'd already
written the first three stories.Yeah, because it takes these,
these things take time. You know, getting an agent, it's
(06:53):
very, very competitive out there.
The industry's brutal. I think my agent gets something
in the region of, I don't know, about 40,000 manuscripts a year,
something like that. And he takes on maybe one or two
new clients. So that just gives you an
impression of how difficult it is to get representation in the
(07:14):
industry. Now you can publish without
representation. You can self publish, you can go
direct to somebody like Amazon. But I made the decision a long
time ago that I was going to wait for representation.
So I met my agent in 2016 and bythen I had three Kelly books
ready to go and he said to me this can be a series.
(07:36):
It just so happened that we soldthem in threes to the
publishers. They bought the first three and
then my contracts from then. I've been rolling threes, which
is why I'm up to 12 at the moment.
Fantastic, And each book has a theme.
And what's the theme of this book?
And so it's gritty and dark. It certainly isn't cosy crime.
(07:59):
It touches on things like organised crime, sex
trafficking, prostitution, national and global drug
dealing. Now, taken on their own,
they're, they're really shocking, very topical subjects.
It's only last year that in the Lake District, in a little
village called Ambleside, a hotel was closed down for these
(08:19):
very issues. Yeah, Yeah.
So, you know, when I have had, Ihave been contacted on social
media and said, you know, this, it's it's too dark or, you know,
this, this sort of thing doesn'tgo on.
Well, it does. And we see it in the UK news all
the time about people trafficking.
(08:41):
So I start with a bang, that's for sure.
It's set in the Lake District. Each book not they have
different seasons. So what season is Dart game?
Yeah, Dart games in the summer and I think each book being set
in a different season is really important.
And it and it's it's a part of that particular story that's
going on in dart game. It is about the people
(09:03):
trafficking behind the transienttourism population.
So it had to be the summer, that's when the hotels are most
busy and that's when where my a few of my main characters, the
three girls who are illegal workers and they've come to to
make money during the summer season.
(09:24):
So that was really important. All right guys, we have got some
reader point of view questions for Rachel right now from Dart
Game. Rachel as a reader, we get so
invested in Kelly's journey, herreturn, her return to the Lake
District, her past with the met and met the twat and her
relationship. Sorry, just love saying that.
I'm going to keep saying it. What do you think it is about
(09:46):
Kelly that makes readers connectwith her so strongly?
Yeah, I mean, I I think it's herback story.
You know, she's, she's normal. She she fails and she picks
herself up and she brushes herself off and she has worries
and needs that are just like anybody else's.
And and she's got a story, you know, she doesn't come to Dark
(10:07):
Game as a blank page. She's already lived a life and
not only in Cumbria where she grew up, but, but she's lived a
life in London as well because she learnt, she studied to be a
detective in the Met. So in Dark Game we meet her as
as coming home a bit with a tailbetween her legs because Matt
(10:27):
the twat was not only a lover but also her boss, which, you
know, we know that those things don't usually mix.
So it's a bit bit of a push and a pull.
You know, she's been pushed awayfrom London because it didn't
quite go as she expected. Matt the twat really threw her
under the bus, but she's also been pulled back home because
her dad's died. So, you know, I really think
(10:50):
it's, it's her normality. She's relatable.
Throughout Dark Game Rach, there's a real sense that the
sleepy towns in the Lake District are hiding dark
secrets. What role do you think the
setting plays in creating a sense of unease for the reader?
I just think that it lends itself absolutely perfectly to a
crime series. You know, you've got the Moody
(11:12):
weather, you've got the hiding places.
I mean, I go back every year andbecause I, like I said earlier,
I live in Hertfordshire now, butI go back every year and I
always find places that surpriseme.
And I've been walking there since I could walk literally, I
think I, I went up Scarfeld Pikewhen I was about 10 years old
(11:37):
and I still walk past like abandoned shepherd's huts and
think, oh, I could hide A body in there.
And that's what I love about it is so beautiful and so dramatic
and striking and it and it, and I think, don't quote me, I think
that they have 18,000,000 visitors a year because it's now
(12:00):
a UNESCO World Heritage site as of 2017 as well.
That's a lot of people, you know, it is that beautiful.
It's, it's gorgeous. And so to me, the idea of this,
well, what could go wrong? What's the underbelly underneath
it? And I think that's what freaks
people out because, you know, they're buying toffee in, in
(12:22):
cartmole or famous gingerbread in grassmere.
But 2 miles away there's been a hideous murder.
So I love that juxtaposition. And, and, and it's, it's, I
think it lends itself to secrets, to the wilderness, to
mystery, to hiding reality. So that's, that's yeah, that
(12:42):
that's, that's what what drew meto it initially.
I just have to ask you this question about the twists in the
book. And if you're reading along,
there's a a great twist between a couple of the characters.
How did you balance, like, keeping readers on the edge of
their seats while still planting, you know, clues that
they might catch? So I found rereading the books
that I picked up on a few things.
(13:03):
I think that this is where my earlier sort of strategy that I
touched on comes in, because when you went well, when I, I
mean, I can only speak for myself.
I know that I've got lots of friends who are writers who plan
a lot, and then lots of friends who are writers who don't plan
so much and they're more like me.
(13:24):
And they just sort of, you know,get it on the page and then they
edit. So with that model, what happens
is I find is that you get the story down and you create these
characters. And I've got to say, I do
really, really love perhaps too much creating baddies.
And it's, it's not, it's not a spoiler to say that, you know,
(13:45):
Marco and Teresa Jolliffe and and Darren Beckett are, are
baddies. You know, they're, they're
really vile people. Now, you know, we could talk
forever about why they're vile and, and, but that for the
purposes of a crime novel, it doesn't matter.
You've got, you've got to have your vile people.
But they're particularly nasty, aren't they?
(14:05):
And I think that if. Darren is.
Oh, yeah. And, and The thing is that
they're, they're all, they're very selfish, aren't they?
They're, they're all doing what they're doing for their own
gain. So, you know, Marco is the
kingpin, isn't he? He's the one who's running it
all. And none of these are spoilers.
(14:26):
Teresa is, is kind of the brains, isn't she?
But she's always walking a tightrope because she's the
beauty as well. And then Darren is the sort of
get things done guy, but he's souseless.
He screws up and he doesn't get anything done and he's just an
absolute idiot. So he's like the small town
criminal, isn't he? But The thing is that I didn't
(14:47):
get to know any of these things until I'd written it.
And then I started to chew over and I literally, I go for walks,
walk the dog, I walk around and I, you know, I cook and I'm
thinking about it. I go to bed and I'm thinking
about it. I'll be driving and I'll be
thinking about it. And it's only these chewing over
processes where I think that'd be a good twist.
(15:10):
And you can't deliver your twisttoo early.
You've got to be fully cooked twists, and so you've got to
cook them first, and then you'vegot to go back and insert them.
That's what I do. They don't come, as you know, as
I'm writing the first draught. I think you'd have to be a bona
fide genius for that for that tohappen organically, you know, So
(15:32):
the twists are are worked on andthey come from the characters.
The twist that I'm talking about, you'll have to read the
book and you might already be you might already be up to speed
on what we're talking about here, but that's an absolute
Ripper. I'm going to scroll right down
to this next question here, Rach.
It's question 6 on your screen there.
So we've got the show notes guys, so we can both see what
(15:53):
we're talking about, but you open Dark Game with such a bang.
Those first few pages for me were utterly gripping.
Couldn't read through them quickenough.
What was your intention with that powerful opening first
book? First couple of pages, it's just
so much information really to hook the readers in.
Sounds like a really stupid question now that I'm asking it,
(16:15):
but. Yeah, I think it had to be
because, you know, this was that, that it wasn't like you
say, it wasn't just the first chapter in a book.
It was the first time people were meeting Kelly.
So, you know, decisions are going to be made on whether
readers are going to take her forward or not.
(16:36):
You know, the, the, the, the market is so busy at the moment.
There are hundreds, if not thousands of detectives out
there, hundreds if not thousandsof crime books out there at the
moment. It's a really popular genre, so
she that there had to be some things that were that were
hooking straight away. So obviously the case is one of
(16:57):
them. That's the obvious one.
That's where most crime is is differentiated.
But she had to be hooking too. And I think that her, her, her,
her worries about fitting in andher worries about doing her job
properly, but also her worries about her personal life too.
(17:17):
So it had to be a combination ofreally explosive moments that
drew people in. But having said that, I think
that it's important for all books to start like that.
So I after that game I did get in, I sort of have that as a, as
a style now where, you know, I start with something pretty
(17:40):
shocking. Without giving anything away,
the, the opening of Bitter edge #4 comes to comes to mind with
the, the young girl standing on the edge of the Cliff.
So I think it's really, really important that that those first
few pages and, and, and it's andit's not a coincidence that when
agents and publishers are looking at your work, they only
(18:02):
want the first 3 chapters to read.
Oh, is that right? There you go.
This book, Duck Game, weaves together people smuggling, child
abduction, sex trafficking, offshore money laundering, and
more. How did you go about approaching
and crafting such a complex plot?
Yeah, I guess. Well, I think it was organic
(18:22):
really, because when you're talking about organised crime
you've got to have layers of people.
So you there's always got to be somebody at the top and there's
got to be somebody at the bottomand there's got to be lots of
shades of different people in between.
So a successful organised crime racket is going to be national,
(18:43):
it's going to be global. And I had the Workington port
there in in, in northwest Cumbria and you've got the Isle
of Man Connection, which is a tax haven that lent into it as
well. My husband at the time was
working for fraud at a big bank,so I learnt a lot from him about
money laundering at the time. I don't know if you remember,
(19:05):
but there was a big story about the Azerbaijan laundromat that
was going on. That was, you know, back in
2016, the banks were all really paranoid about where their money
was going, whether it was being used, whether they were being
used to clean money globally. And a lot of them were fined.
And this is when, you know, fraud and values and standards
(19:30):
really changed in big banks, youknow, they were held to account
for all this stuff. So there was a lot online to,
to, to research. It was all there and all of the
pieces. And then I had to just put
different characters in different layers.
And so I had my local characterswho are the people on the
ground, you know, doing the horrible things.
(19:52):
Then I had like a guy in prison,for example, which again is
really realistic because they can still run organised from
prison. So I interviewed prison
officers, I interviewed a governor, I interviewed some
really interesting people. And like I said, you know, my
husband helped with financial crime because you've got to,
they're doing it for a reason. And usually crime is done
(20:14):
unless, you know, you take your serial killing psychopaths out
of it. Most crime is done for sex or
money, and in that game it's money.
And there's a few people who aregetting very rich off these
horrible, horrible industries. We'll get to some of those in a
moment, but I was going to ask you, we touched on this in a in
(20:34):
a earlier podcast, but Kelly Porter returns to her hometown
under a bit of a cloud. How much does that personal
baggage shape who she is as a detective in the first book?
Because it's quite important, isn't it?
Yeah, definitely. So I think that, you know, in
Dark game, we, we meet her a real crossroads in her life.
And again, I think to start a series that's a, that's a really
(20:58):
fantastic way to start because you're then as a reader, you
know that you're going to go on this journey with her.
It's not just a Tuesday afternoon and she's just getting
on with her job and she's sat ather desk trawling through cases.
You're actually starting at a really important moment of her
life where she's she's had this.She had great hopes for the Met
(21:21):
in London. She was part of this huge murder
squad, really cutting edge stuff.
She was at the, you know, at thetop of her game.
Then things went bad because of Matt Twat would get him in there
again. Just say that a few more times.
And, and, and so, you know, she's she's, she is coming home
under a cloud. And, and, and so you've got lots
of questions as a reader. How's she going to fit in?
(21:45):
Is she going to cope? What's she going to do to
reinvent herself? So as a reader, you're really,
really there at the beginning of, of her reinvention.
And I like, I really like that Iwas drawn to that as a as a
writer. For those that have read Dark
Game, you'll know that at the heart of it is the case of
Lottie Davis. And, and we talked about this
(22:08):
briefly in a in an earlier podcast, but this is central to
this book. It's haunting, this storyline
rage. I'm really keen to know what
drew you to writing about such atragic crime and how did it
shape the emotional tone of the story?
I think when, when I'm writing acrime book, any, any of my crime
(22:31):
books, it could be a Kelly or itcould be one of my standalones.
I really believe that for any human story you need light and
shade and, and it's got to be a gentle touch between the two of
them because we've got to have contrast.
And so the case of Lottie is devastatingly awful.
(22:54):
But what it allowed me to do wasit allowed me to take Kelly to
her mother's house and, and sit in her living room and look at
Lottie's portrait on the wall. And so, so you're, you're
balancing the, the, the, the, just, I'm almost speechless.
(23:15):
The, the, the, the, the terriblethings that happened to this 10
year old girl. You're balancing that with the,
the, the most wonderful part of humanity, which is Kelly wanting
to reach out to Jenny, her mother, and, and catch the shit
that did this. And, and that.
That is where the story is. That is only where the story is,
(23:40):
is Kelly's need to do good. And I thought that this story
really encapsulated that. And it just started like any of
these ideas do. Little girl, red dress,
abduction in the middle of nowhere, watching Eagles.
And then I thought, right mother, how would mother feel
it? Obviously, without giving too
(24:02):
much away, as you can imagine, it devastated the family.
And then insert this detective who you know, because this,
let's face it, this case has been dropped, you know, and at
the end of that game, you know why it was dropped and who
perhaps had a hand in making it get dropped.
However, for Kelly new from the Met, she doesn't know why it's
(24:25):
been dropped. She doesn't.
She just wants to get to the bottom of this horrendous case.
And she's like, why is this casebeing dropped?
I'm going to look into this. That's how she meets the mother.
That's how she gets to know the story of how Lottie was watching
eagles with her family. And so it enables you to insert
this huge amount of emotion intoa really horrible story.
(24:49):
And I think if crime books are just about the crime, then
there's no room for that humanity.
So that I believe that my crime books need that light and shade
and so enabled me to do that. And we see that Rach with also
the setting between the Lake District and like the dark,
(25:11):
gritty crime against the the storyline.
At the same time. That must be fun to kind of
write as well, because you in your mind you're you see it, the
beautiful, the beauty in the thedistrict as well, the lakes.
Yeah, absolutely. And every time I mean, you,
we're recording this as well, aren't we?
On, on, you know, and hopefully this is this, this visual will
(25:34):
be out on YouTube. And you can see behind me, I've
got a map of the Lake District on my wall.
And so, you know, I just have tosort of scoop back there and I'm
there. I'm a very visual writer.
So these images are always flashing through my head when
I'm writing about them, and it doesn't matter where I am in the
Lake District. It could be, you know, just the
(25:55):
Alls Water way, for example, which stretches the whole of
Alls Water. But if you're on your own on
that track and the lights fadingand your mobile phone's not
working and you come across the forest and there's no way around
it, you've got to go through it straight away, They.
The Beat. And the tranquilly and the, you
(26:16):
know, the UNESCO World Heritage Site status kind of goes out the
window. You've got yourself quiet story.
So yeah, I love that juxtaposition about it.
One of my favourite characters in this book is Ted Wallace, the
chief coroner for the the Northwest, who's been a coroner
for 40 years. There's a story, there's a the
autopsy scene in this book. It's just so authentic.
(26:40):
Haven't been to an autopsy, mindyou, but what kind of research
goes into making scenes like this feel really authentic
without overwhelming the readers?
I personally loved it. Yeah, I, I, I love it as well.
And I think you can probably tell.
And, you know, and again, all, all crime fiction, that's why
there's always somebody for something for everybody.
(27:01):
You know, there's room for everybody's style.
Mine is very much inclusive of the autopsy.
And you know, Ted is a really important character and, and
he's, he's still with me on Book13.
So Ted's work is really integralto, to Kelly's investigations.
(27:22):
And I always have autopsy scenes.
And my publisher has actually said to me, can you write a
series just on him? Really.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They, they want a car in a
series because, you know, they, they, yeah.
Those, those scenes are just so juicy and it's amazing what you
can find online. I mean, I've spoken to funeral
(27:45):
directors, I've spoken to, yeah,Mortuary technicians.
I would love to go and watch an autopsy for real because I've
got quite a strong, strong stomach.
But I, I don't, I haven't had the opportunity.
I nearly did. And then COVID hit and they,
they. Yeah, yeah.
So I'd like to organise that. But it's amazing what you can
(28:05):
find online. So I watched one which you
couldn't see what, what the pathologist was doing.
You could just see his head and shoulders.
And he was actually telling you,is talking you through what he
was doing. Yeah.
You can, you can research anything really.
I mean, I'm amazed that the police have knocked at my door
and tried to arrest me or I've Googled.
(28:27):
They must, they must be on some watch list.
And then they must go on. She's a crime writer.
She's a psycho. Number alone.
What about Incognito? Is that he is Google Incognito?
Oh. I don't know.
Yeah, maybe I could switch her on.
Well, I'm worried now. It's I love Kelly's
relationships in Dark Game. It's the first book, so it's
(28:50):
setting the scene with her mum, her sister, you know, her new
romance in Johnny. There's so many layers here and
it's also really raw as well. Kelly's such a complex person,
why was it important to show hervulnerability alongside her
toughness in Dark Game? I think again, it's the light
and shade, you know, it's the, the good and the bad, the light
(29:13):
and the dark. It's and also to make her
relatable because she's got to be 3456 dimensional.
She can't just be two-dimensional.
She can't just be this detectivewho solves crime.
It's just not good enough. It's not interesting enough and
it's not real. And I think that, you know,
Kelly's relatable because she's,she's quite ordinary.
(29:35):
She has the same desires and same needs.
And so it was actually a conversation with my agent about
Kelly's family because my, I'm really lucky to have the agent
that I've got. Peter Bookman has been in the
industry for a long time. I mean, he started working for
Penguin in his 20s in New York, and he's now in his 80s.
(29:57):
So he's been in this industry, yeah, for 60 years.
And, and I feel so lucky that I met him.
He's, he's incredible. And we were having a chat about
Kelly's family once he'd read the first couple of of books and
he was he, he actually, I think at the time, you know, Kelly's
(30:17):
family wasn't quite as dysfunctional.
And I think he, he, it was his sort of nudge.
And he said, you know, perhaps make her give her a few
problems, more problems in her family can make a bit realer
because, you know, we, I don't think anybody has the perfect
family. There's always tension.
So I thought, oh, yeah, that's areally good point.
(30:38):
Actually. Maybe she's a bit too perfect.
So that's where the tension camefrom.
And that's what planted the seedabout, you know, maybe your
father was this incredible detective.
Sorry, he wasn't a detective. He was in uniform, but he was an
incredible policeman. But it was a bit of an
authoritarian at home. You know, she's got this sister,
and they used to be close, but now they're not because they're
(30:59):
so different. You know, she left.
She doesn't want children, whereas Nikis had three
children, and she stayed. And she's perhaps resentful
because, you know, she shouldered a lot of the illness
of her father. So, you know, there's, there's
real tension there. And also you've got this lovely
dynamic of golden bollocks coming home, you know, Joseph
and is an amazing technicolour coat returning, you know, the
(31:20):
prodigal daughter. Oh, Kelly's home.
Nikki's not going to like that. So there's lovely tension there
as well. And there's tension with her mum
because, you know, Wendy is veryold fashioned.
She's got this 36 year old daughter come in and, you know,
trashing her house and staying out all hours.
And she's I'll as well as we find out in in dark games.
So you know that I think that tension is, without being too
(31:44):
heavy on it, it's just normal. Kelly's got more going on in her
life than these awful cases, which is normal.
And the relation, the relationship that she has with
her mum is, is really interesting as she comes home
and she said that she moved intothe family home before she gets
her new place. And then also her not giving any
spoilers away here, but her mum's a bit sick.
(32:06):
So yeah, she's it's a really interesting relationship there.
She wants to be, you know, goingout and enjoying herself and not
bringing home any men. Yeah, you know, she's and she's
torn in different directions, isn't she?
She's most grown woman. She's not 14.
And I think sometimes Wendy treats her like she's 14 and
she's not. And so there's another sort of
(32:26):
stress in her life. And I think that Johnny provides
real relief to that because he'son many levels is quite simple.
You know, he's a volunteer for the mountain rescue.
It's clearly financially OK to be able to do that, although she
hasn't found out how he makes his money yet, you know, and
(32:47):
he's very casual and, and, and pretty chilled and she needs
that. She really needs that.
So that's, that's another lovelyaddition, I think to her
dynamic. Dark Game has many, many
different type of storylines that kind of beautifully weave
together. There's some epic twists in this
book as well with Marco and Sasha and and Teresa Jolliff.
(33:09):
The question is, did you always know how it would end or did the
twist evolve as you wrote it? Interested to know that I.
Think, I think a combination of both.
So I think when I when I start astory, I usually know how it
ends because that's how I start.I start with the, the big sort
(33:31):
of finale in my head. So what is it that's actually
happened? I know, and, and everyone's
different, you know, all writersare different, but I, I start
with, oh, wouldn't it be amazingif, and then I create the
characters and then I, I build up to that and, and, and, and,
and as that process goes along, you always find that things
(33:53):
change and twists come and go and characters slightly change
and, and maybe even your ending changes.
So there's a few sort of side plots in Dark games.
So for example, in the opening chapters, you know, we find that
a little newborn baby has actually been found abandoned.
Baby Dale. Yeah, Baby Dale and they name
him Baby Dale because they don'topen years.
(34:14):
And he was found in Patterdale, which is a gorgeous little
village at the foot of one of myfavourite climes, which is Place
Fell. And there's a red a white lion
pub at the the beginning of the walk which on it.
Yeah, for that area, loads of campers and the green LED slate.
Mine is actually a real mine where baby Dale was found.
So you know that all of these places are really in my head and
(34:38):
I've been to all of them and it's really isolated.
There's a there's a really fast rushing beck that goes right by
the mine. So, you know, I can hear the
rushing water and it would have been really awful with baby
being abandoned. But we, you know, we find out
why. So that family dynamic played a
big part, I think as we went through the book then I
(34:59):
originally anticipated, but yeah, so it so it does develop
organically, but I normally start with the main deed.
Who did it? Why did we do it?
Because I don't think all crime has to be a whodunnit.
Sometimes it's I think dart gameis more of a why done it do
actually meet a lot of the baddies along the way.
(35:20):
So you do kind of know what they're doing and who's doing
it. So it's more of a why done it
and and and in who's going to solve it that makes.
There's one little scene in DartGame where Kelly's mum is
involved in, incidentally, in assisting somebody to, yeah,
(35:41):
baby Dale's mum to get out of the public toilet.
You'll have to read the book to know what I'm talking about, but
I love that little twist there. So that's not giving away
anything, guys. But that's a that's a really,
really cool way that you weaved her mum into that storyline.
That was so, so clever. I really love writing that.
Yeah, because it just shows so much about Wendy, doesn't it?
(36:04):
You introduce Kelly's new team in this book and she's got such
a lovely team around her and we get to know them as we read
through the the books. But how did you go about
building the dynamic between them?
Who should we be keeping an eye on as the series progresses
without giving away anything there?
Yeah, I, I think that as any team, I think you need a little
(36:25):
bit of everything, don't you? And so for the, for the purposes
of a story, you can't have, you know, 5 people who are doing all
of the same things and have got the same characters.
So, you know, you've got young Emma, Emma Hyde, who, you know,
she's really clever, very intelligent and she's a thinker.
(36:47):
You know, she's, she's kind of Kelly's thinker and she comes up
with some, you know, really interesting hypotheses.
And then you've got the older and wiser Kate, I'm sure, who is
Kelly's second in command, brings a very different flavour
to the team and safe pair of hands.
And she's a plodder, you know, she gets the work done and Kelly
(37:10):
can rely on her. And she's also got a wealth of
experience personally because she's got three teenage
daughters, you know. And then you have Dan and and
there's, there's there's anotherman who who comes in a bit later
called called Rob. You've got Will Phillips in dark
(37:32):
game as well. So you know, and and he's, he's
very experienced. He he's a bit sort of rough
around the edges. One of those, one of those
detectives who kind of throws his whole world into the cases.
And, and actually to answer yourquestion, you know, all of them
go through and develop in their different ways.
(37:53):
And I kind of bring in an interesting sideline on one at a
time with each book. So on one of them it might be
Will Phillips back story and what happens to him.
And another one I look a bit closer to Emma.
And then you've got the new guy down and the new guy Rob.
(38:13):
And so they go on. And I also in the books develop
Kate and Kelly's relationship because that's a really, that's
a blossoming friendship that Kelly really needs.
She needs people rely on. So and then obviously outside of
the the crime team, you've got Ted.
So Kelly and Ted's relationship blossoms as well.
(38:36):
And he's about the same ages as John Porter, her father.
So, you know, she kind of looks to him as a, as a bit of a
father figure without her realising it.
She doesn't do it on purpose. I think they've just got a
relationship. Love the way that that
relationship blossoms and you can see it as it progresses
through the book. One thing I wanted to say was
about Rob Shawcross. I've been keeping a cast list of
(38:59):
all of the some going through all the books and kind of making
my own little mud map. Rob Shawcross.
He's got a wife called Mia. Yeah, Mia loves to discuss the
the crime cases with Rob when hegets home from work, but what
gets put out on the media by Kelly and what the the public
know about the cases are obviously different to what's
(39:20):
known inside the incident room. Like me is like trying to solve
the case for Rob, it's she's so far off the mark.
From what she's seen on the news, yeah.
Yeah. That was really, really clever.
I love the way you did that withhis wife.
That was really, really funny. And I bet that goes on right?
Because because we such a different story, don't we?
(39:43):
What they decide to remove to the press.
Hey, we're just about coming up to our final question here in
Dark Game. I've got something absolutely
hilarious to ask you, Rach, but this is such a fantastic it's
the first book in this series. Really loved it, and I loved it
even more when I've just finished rereading it.
But there's something I have to ask you, Rach.
(40:05):
It's about MasterChef Australia and the the MasterChef Australia
reference. This was just so, so funny when
I got to this part in the book. I loved reading it then when
Darren was watching MasterChef Australia.
And then I think he went to LoveIsland something.
(40:28):
But Tim Bone, who is on MasterChef, he's also a friend
of ours. You know, if you're listening,
you know, you will really love this.
Tim Bone's on MasterChef Australia, so he's a great guy.
But. That was that was an absolute in
Australian Aussie slang pisser. Oh, brilliant.
I mean, he had to watch something, didn't he?
(40:50):
And you know, he's, he's in thisflat and he's a bit bored and
he's taking some drugs and he's like, oh, he's fucking around
the TV. And that's Chef Australia comes
on. I mean, I had to make it
something. And I and I am officially OK.
I even trump you on this. I am master Chef Australia's
biggest fan ever globally. I mean, it's indisputable.
We're not even going to discuss it.
(41:12):
And when when I saw that that Tim Bone was actually on back to
win this series, which is starting soon, isn't it?
Oh my God. So I love, I love that I love
being able to just sort of put in a little sprinkle of what I
might be doing because I could just imagine him, you know, this
(41:35):
like horrendous guy who is just the the yes man for this awful
sort of organised crime Lord. And and he's, you know, he's
watching something so normal andentertaining as as my chef
Australia is just it was just a lovely moment and I couldn't
resist and I had to make it my favourite programme ever.
(41:59):
Good luck Tim. Back to win, yes.
All right, well, when you come out to Australia, Rach, we'll
take a road trip to go and visitTim.
He's got his own shop now. He's just opened up Tim's
Toasties. Oh wow.
We are absolutely epic. We could we could do another
whole hour on Tim's toasties. So.
And we could do another whole hour on the Adelaide Book
(42:20):
Festival as well, couldn't we? I'm hoping to actually come out
there in, in early 2026 and see you guys and make it come inside
with the the Book Festival and hopefully, yeah, get stocked up
and maybe do a few talks. That'd be amazing.
Thanks, Christy. It's been an amazing episode,
(42:40):
hasn't it? It's been really good to get
into, you know, the the deep bones of of Dark game and the
first in the series, the first in the series of 12, soon to be
thirteen. I've loved it.
I've loved speaking to you aboutit.
And thank you so much for such incredible questions and taking
questions from, you know, socialmedia as well and seeing what
(43:00):
you know, other readers saying. The next book that we'll be
diving into is Deep Fear, which is book #2 so if you haven't
read it but now, then you can follow along with us on the next
episode. We'd love to hear from you where
you're up to in the series. Of course, we won't be giving
away any spoilers, so anybody can join in at any time.
And remember, you can listen to us on Spotify, YouTube, YouTube
(43:22):
Music, and also be sure to subscribe so you never miss that
episode. That's amazing.
Thank you, Christy. And if you've got any thoughts
on what we've been talking abouttoday, today's chat, drop us a
line and we'll we'll take your questions.
We'd love to hear from you. Sounds great.
All right, Ray, good to see you.We'll see you again soon, and
thanks so much for listening. See you next time.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.