May 20, 2025 • 52 mins
Welcome back to The Killer Storyteller: A Podcast with Rachel Lynch! In this episode, million-copy bestselling author Rachel Lynch and Aussie co-host Kristy Horne crack open Deep Fear, the chilling second instalment in the DI Kelly Porter series.
It might be summertime in the Lake District, but things are anything but sunny. With a vigilante serial killer targeting victims for their sins, Deep Fear explores justice, trauma, and what happens when someone takes morality into their own hands.
Rachel shares how this book (her trickiest yet) was written in just two months and initially rejected by her agent. She reveals the challenges of writing a sequel, her fascination with vigilante justice, and how Lake District poetry became a haunting thread in the storyline.
Expect vivid forensics, poetry-tinged murders, and the return of some favourites.
Plus, find out how Kelly is settling into her own space and stepping up as a leader in her team and in her life.
Kristy brings the reader’s POV with standout moments, favourite quotes, and one unforgettable final showdown. And of course, there are plenty of laughs, especially when we learn what “soporific eggs” are (gross).
📖 Reading along? You’re in the right place. Deep Fear is where Kelly Porter truly comes into her own.
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Rachel & Kristy
The Killer Storyteller: A Podcast with Rachel Lynch
🎧 Produced by: boxesofnoise
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
Welcome back to the Killer Storyteller podcast with me,
Rachel Lynch, coming to you fromLondon today.
And as always, I'm joined by my Aussie pal, Christy.
Hi, Christy. Good day Rach, how are you?
It's great to see you and a big hello to everyone from
Melbourne, Australia. How you going Rach?
Oh yeah, really good. Thanks, Christy.
(00:36):
Yeah, just up out of bed, obviously to make our time zones
match. Yep.
I'm up and ready. I've.
Actually got the giggles I'm gonna.
Already get together. Already I know.
Good day Rach, it's so great to see you and a big hello to
everyone from Melbourne, Australia.
Today's episode is an absolute Corker as my mum would say, and
(00:58):
I'm really looking forward to discussing our second book in
the DI Kelly Porter series, DeepFear.
But before we crack an open right, it's so good to see you.
How are you? I'm really good.
Thanks, Christy. Yeah, I feel as though we're
sort of hitting our stride now, aren't we?
Because we're we're yeah, we're pros.
But what what I what I thought Iwanted to do today actually was
(01:19):
give a shout out to to Mel for the the music and the graphics
on our podcast. Because they are.
We're so lucky, aren't we? They are just so awesome.
And I just thought I'd say a little bit about how I How I Met
Mel. So Mel Steele on on social media
is boxes of noise at boxes of noise.
(01:41):
Give him a follow. And and you know, he's just so
creative. And, and I met Mel and his wife
Louise at an event at a book Waterstones in Carlisle, which
is in Cumbria. And, and we just got chatting
and then we started following each other on social media.
And, and I, I saw what he did and I, I looked at his work.
(02:02):
And then when we decided to do the podcast, I just thought, Oh
my God, it would be perfect. And I think the music and that
graphic is, is fantastic. Yeah, and we've been able to cut
it up and use it in long version, short versions, and
sometimes we'll post some socialmedia posts and just put a
little slice in between because it's so dark and Moody and
(02:24):
murdery. Is that a word?
Murdery. I love that.
But Mel's grey. He's so talented, yeah.
Yeah, and and and I just, it just struck me, you know, we to
get some original music. How lucky.
Lucky it's, you know, totally unique.
So we use it as much as possibleand it's on every episode.
(02:47):
And we also tag in Mel so he he's loving it too.
So we've had some feedback from Mel and I've got to meet him as
well. Online of course.
What else is happening in your part of the world, Rach?
Well, I just booked a holiday tothe Lake District and guess
where we're staying? OK, I don't know.
Tell me. What are we talking about today?
(03:09):
Deep fear. And the opening scene is a
church. Yeah.
Yeah. Watermelon.
We're actually staying there. Yeah.
Yeah. So it's watermelon is on old's
water, and it's slightly up a hill.
The church is at the top of the hill.
(03:30):
It's beautiful church. It's a really old Gothic church.
I'm going to show some pictures on social media for you of the
church. Yeah, it's.
Yes, it's got those, you know that that really gothic sort of
rampart on the top and and the view of oldswater is stunning
and we found an Airbnb with thatview serious.
(03:52):
That's fantastic. Oh, absolutely brilliant.
So we're going next week and so I, we, we, I'm, I'm going to get
loads of footage for you and loads of pictures for social
media to share with everybody because, you know, that is, that
is just precisely what inspires all of these stories.
Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic.
It's going to be a bit weird, you being there and like walking
(04:14):
around with your book. Yeah.
I'm going to take all all 12 of them and I think by the end of
that my husband is going to be alittle bit jaded.
Oh, take another one here looking murdery, What have I?
Found under this rock. Oh, look at steep fear.
(04:35):
Oh, hello. That's so good.
I tell you that my mum's now reading along with us, so she
started off with book #1 and which is fantastic.
So hopefully you've got that onecovered.
Mum and also a bunch of my buddies are also reading along
so it's really good. It's.
Amazing. Oh, that's awesome.
And, and a huge shout out to, you know, people on social media
(04:59):
who are sharing their stories like, you know, going for a run,
listening to the podcast or, youknow, going back to #1 when
they've already finished the whole series, sharing, like, you
know, screen grabs of the whole series.
They've been amazing, haven't they?
At the beach, drinking beer, having some nuts and one of my
(05:19):
buddies, She's my bestie, her name's Trish.
She also found out she's a certified psychopath.
Welcome to the club fresh for the for the people that are not
listening in order or just sort of tuning in.
It's it was the comment, wasn't it that that apparently
professionals say that if you watch true crime to relax in the
(05:43):
evening, which I do and you are a psychopath.
So I'm with you there, Trish. I don't think, I don't think I'm
too psychopathy. Not right now.
You seem pretty calm. It's early in the morning.
A cup of tea. And Steve's Corner bookshop,
we're loving his social posts. It's so nice of you to share the
books and it's been really fantastic to find out where
(06:06):
people are listening in and reading the books from.
Yeah, amazing. Thank you.
Thank you to everybody. It's brilliant.
All right, Rach, let's crack open the case.
I mean begin the interrogation. Oh, my God.
Sorry. I can't help it.
It's so not going to stop. Let's go.
OK, this episode we're discussing Book 2, Deep Fear.
If you've lost everything, what more is there to fear?
(06:28):
And we need to say straight awayupfront that we're not going to
give away any spoilers if you haven't read the book.
We won't be sharing endings, butwe will be discussing like the
themes and the parts of the storyline, so we will try our
best not to give away any spoilers.
And if you're reading along withus as well in real time, you
(06:50):
know it's OK where it's spoilingfor you.
But please, please, we'd love tohear from you if you're up to #2
or you've read #2 or your thoughts on the podcast once
we're once we're done today. So the first time I read this
book, Rach was also on my phone.I think it was using Hoopla or
Apple Books, I can't remember. But it's it's, it's really hard
(07:10):
reading a book on the phone because you've got to keep
flicking the pages quickly. And I actually prefer to read a
book and have it in my hand. If I'm being honest.
I don't mind audiobooks. It's not my first preference,
but having the book in my hand is my purse.
My first preference. I can't speak so I've just
reread it again and like the previous episode I have a bunch
(07:31):
of reader type questions for Rage and also some listener
style ones as well. So there's about five years
before we jump into the conversation.
So Rage, when was this book written?
So this one was written as part of the first 3 back in 2017.
So with Dark Game, Deep Fear andDead End, they were written
(07:52):
pretty quickly and ready to go when we sold the first three to
Canelo in my first deal. Oh.
That's pretty cool. And So what year was this one
published? Well, it was really close to
Dart Game, actually. So Dart Game came out in January
18 and this one came out in May.So, you know, they were really
going for a big launch. OK, that's interesting, isn't
(08:12):
it, that they kind of turned them out quite you?
Well, you turned them out quite quickly.
That must have been a really busy time for you.
Yeah, it, it, it was, but I was just so I mean, any, any writer
will tell you that, you know, when they get the, the, the
first deal, that is, you know, it's, you never think you'd have
to work again. You know, that's it.
I've I've got my first deal are made need to, I need to carry on
(08:37):
now. So yeah, but it was, it was so
it was so exciting. You know, if they said they
wanted to turn around of a couple of months for the next
one, then that was absolutely fine by me.
You know, there was so with the first three, the, the, the plan
was to get them out all in 2018 and to build a fan base.
And it worked, you know, becauseit's, it's a risk.
It doesn't always work with new launches and it really worked
(09:00):
and, and, and a lot of people connected with Kelly and that
was it. Her fan base took off from
there. So it was a good strategy.
Where were you when you wrote this book?
So this was before we had an office built in the garden
during COVID. So this one will have been
written everywhere, probably around the kids doing their
homework on the kitchen table. The front room.
(09:21):
I had a little, a little beautiful sort of old walnut
table in the front room that I used to write on back then.
And so there would it would havebeen, you know, just writing
whenever I got the opportunity around the children.
Mom, what do they say? They they say mom about 3000
times a day. And how long did this one take
(09:41):
you to write? This was, this was my hardest, I
think because it's true what they say about sequels and I
found this really, really tricky.
So it went through a few draughts.
My agent actually rejected the first draught saying that this
is, you know, this is not the Kelly that I remember from Dark
Games, so you need to do it again.
(10:04):
OK, tough. So it probably took me about, I
don't know, maybe about two or three months.
Yeah, right. And at that time, did you have a
plan for the entire series for Dr. Kelly Porter?
Right from the very beginning. So we had we had three ready to
(10:24):
go. When, when, when my agent sold
them. But I've got to say, you know,
back then, I mean, I had no ideain my wildest dreams that I
would be now starting #14. Unbelievable.
Like each book, this one's also got a theme.
And what's the theme of this one, right?
So this one is and and and making them making them all a
(10:48):
very different theme is, is really important to me.
I like to, you know, have a big change for each one.
And this one I decided to go forlike a vigilante type serial
killer. Sorry, I'm not laughing at that,
but if you've read the book, youknow that this is such a Ripper
of a book. I, I don't, I, I honestly don't
(11:10):
know why I chose that at that time, but I think it's just
little things as we'll discuss as we go, we go on, it's little
things that just pop into your head and then they don't leave.
And, and I just got hooked on this, this idea of this, you
know, the serial killer going round and sort of clearing up
(11:31):
what they perceive to be nasty and irritating and wasteful
people. So I that's the sort of the, you
know, the theme that I was goingfor.
All the books are set in the Lake District, and I'm always
interested in what season it is and what season is it in this
book, right? So it's, it's about a year after
(11:54):
dark game and so it's summer again, which is really important
for the state that the the bodies are found in.
This is the way that my mind works, Christy.
So you know that and I needed that sort of distance for her
because this is her next big investigation after the
(12:16):
trafficking case in dark game. And, and you've picked up on
this that, you know, she is a lot more confident and settled
now. So she's had that distance
between that, that last big faceand this is the next sort of
major investigation that she's facing.
And she's she's developed, hasn't she?
She's yeah, yeah. She's a lot more settled in this
(12:38):
one. Yeah, yeah, she, she certainly
is. OK, so we've, we've decided to
have a another new sort of little insert, haven't we?
And I think this is a brilliant idea, Christy.
And and So what we've decided todo is have like a little summary
each time with you giving your interpretation of each book and
(13:02):
and your main takeaways as as the reader over to you.
I felt like this this was missing out of the last podcast
and we gave a little bit of a summary, but I thought as a
reader I wanted to give it. And then also we talk about some
of the favourite characters and that.
So OK, let's talk about book 2, Deep Fear.
(13:22):
So this is my summary. It's summertime in the Lake
District. But don't let the sunshine fool
you folks. This one dives deep Into
Darkness. In Deep Fear, we're faced with a
serial killer on a mission of sacrifice and purification.
Each victim is chosen for their behaviour, greed, bullying, you
name it. And the way everything unfolds,
(13:43):
it's chillingly clever. I I really love this book.
The storylines of Deep Fear are beautifully layered.
There's a lot going on, but it never feels overwhelming to the
reader or hard to keep up. So every character, every plot,
every plot point is connected ina way that's really thoughtful
and tied. So we read a lot, we learn a lot
(14:04):
about the killer's traumatic past in this book, and it gives
so much weight to the story. Am I going so far, Rach?
So far so good. That's superb.
I'm just, I'm, I'm loving it because it's it's it's like a
trip by memory lane. Yeah.
Right. OK, so the policing is great in
this book. It's totally believable.
And again, there's a forensic side of things, like the really
(14:26):
detailed autopsy with Ted and the introduction of Doctor
Philip Modis, the handwriting specialist who honestly doesn't
stop talking. I really, really loved him.
We're going to get to this a little bit later in the EP, but
poetry plays a surprising role in this episode.
It's woven into the murders and the settings, even how the
(14:46):
bodies are placed. And then there's the reverend
and the guide and the tour guide.
What a pair they are. The conversations with Kelly add
some really good, lighter moments to this story.
That was a really cool touched rage.
I love the way that you you wovethat in.
I'm not introducing those like minor sideline characters just
(15:06):
to just to bring, you know, likea little bit of lightness.
I'm so glad that you picked those up.
The reverend, he was a crack up.I really liked him and he and
Kelly really connected. So on the home front, Kelly
finally get to own place with nofurniture, which is totally
relatable. And the ending, what the actual
(15:27):
the final showdown between Kellyand the killer is so intense.
The way the killer flips betweenpersonalities is a hostage,
hostage situation. And the grand finale is just
edge of your seat stuff. And there was something that's
really sweet from her sister. You pick it up when you read the
book, so it's just perfect. But one hilarious moment that
(15:50):
actually laughed out loud, It's right at the end of the book.
It's a shout out to Johnny Kelly's bow.
He's sprinting to the rescue in some random person's shoes that
he's found under a desk. It's just really funny and epic.
I love the way that you you, youmade that happen in the book.
That was really hilarious for me.
(16:10):
There you go, that's my summary.Awesome.
Thanks, Christy. I mean, that's, that's an epic
summary and, and, and just a, anexcellent overview of the book.
You know, I I just I love what you've picked out there and and
you've picked out some of my favourite bits too.
Oh, really? Yeah, yeah.
So. That, that, that means that like
I've, I've done my job because the bits that I, I wanted to be
(16:32):
significant, you've actually picked up on.
And so that's just amazing for me to hear that.
And, but like I said, you know, the sequel's really hard work
and, and, and one of the things that I really needed to nail in
this was that all of the, the characters that fans had started
to get behind because of #1 theyall needed to be there.
(16:55):
They needed to be dominant. They needed to be present, but
they all needed to move on in their relationships, their
personal lives. And so they all need to develop.
So, so you keep the fans that that have come back because of
of #1 so all those little details that you've picked out,
I just, I just make me make me so good.
(17:17):
I'm. Glad.
I'm glad. Yeah.
So now let's unpack some of the storylines and the characters.
I really noticed that Kelly's really growing in confidence in
Book 2. And was that done on purpose?
Yeah, absolutely. She's she's in in dark game, you
know, she's come back from the Mets and she's really finding it
difficult to fit in. She's lacking confidence and she
(17:40):
doesn't quite know who she is yet.
She hasn't formed that identity.So in Deep Fear she really does,
you know, come across as more self assured.
She's got the confidence becauseshe cracked the case in Dark
Game. Her relationship with Johnny is
is blossoming nicely. She's finding a decent man.
(18:01):
The the he's has not really got an ego and she's she's a little
bit unsure of that compared to Matt the twat, obviously, and
and her team is developing. She's making connections with,
you know, other esteemed officers and she's so she's
settling in. She's putting her feet under the
desk and we find her, you know, ready for her.
(18:23):
Her next case. Yeah, it's a big.
Case, and we touched on this a little bit earlier, but what
attracted you to a vigilante style mission oriented killer?
Yeah, so I, I don't know about you, but I, I love this, this
sort of twist on the genre. I'm a massive fan of Dexter and
(18:44):
you and I'm fascinated by. Yeah, yeah, it's.
But isn't it odd how we find ourselves rooting for the
vigilante? Now, I don't think you do that
in deep fear. But you know, on about the theme
is that this this idea that that, you know, we all want to
(19:07):
we we want fairness, don't we want justice?
And so if you've done something wrong, then you need to pay for
it. And that, and that's what this
is all based on. And and I, you know, I the, the,
the, the killer is cleaning up in, in obviously the most awful
way. And there's something braggy
about it as well, isn't there? Because you know, and I, I think
(19:29):
that is definitely you. Did you did you watch the the
final series? OK, so without without any
spoilers, it goes more into behind the scenes and and why
why maybe vigilante killers do what they do and think that
(19:49):
they're justified because the killer in Deep fear has got such
a huge ego, which is why they leave the notes because they're
toying, you know, with the police.
So all of that just really fascinates me.
Absolutely. And.
How did you research serial killers?
Like getting into the weeds of one hell because it's very
complex. How did you do that?
(20:10):
Yeah. And, and I think this just goes
back to my own fascination with,with sort of deviant crime.
You know, why, why is it that, you know, a child can be born
into one family and then a different child can be born into
a different family And, you know, they, they have such
different paths in life. And I'm a, I'm a big, you know,
(20:31):
nurture versus nature advocate. And, and I think, you know,
nurture plays a, a bigger part. That's my own personal opinion.
So I think that environment is, is it plays a huge part, you
know, in somebody's development.And I think that picking apart
this really sort of complex psychopathy from, from how an
(20:57):
innocent child goes to a really,you know, nasty, horrible dark
killer is, you know, so I did a lot of research into forensic
psychology, behavioural science,because the killer needed to
believable to be believable. You can't just create a serial
killer and they just go around killing people.
It doesn't work like that. Readers are much more discerning
(21:19):
now. They, they want everything to
make sense. So it's so the killer had to
have a believable back story that would explain the reasons
behind the crimes, Yeah. And that comes out later in the
book, which is a really complex story, very interesting.
Can understand why that person is like that person is.
(21:40):
The forensics are detailed, meticulous and gruesome and so
vivid. How did you develop these
scenes, Rachel, and bring in newtechniques like dentistry and
handwriting? That was really cool part in
this book. Yeah, I, I always, I'm so I'm so
glad that you picked up on that because I always try and
highlight a different like forensic breakthrough or
(22:03):
procedure in each book because Idon't want the, the forensic
scenes are really important to me.
And I, and I love Ted's development through the, the
series as well. And you know, his, his
relationship with, with Kelly and the first one was a little
bit more distant. They're working a lot closer
(22:24):
now, and so his work is really important and I just interview
some really interesting people. And so I'll start looking into
something or I'll watch something that I think, oh God,
that's really interesting how they did that, like the bite
analysis or, or like, you know, something that was left behind
(22:46):
at the scene and, and how they examined the fibres And then
they found out that it was from a carpet that was only produced
in Chicago in, you know, the 1950s.
Or that all that nitty gritty detail really, really fascinates
me. And, and think that's how I find
out about these, these processesand procedures like low cards
(23:07):
exchange principle, for example,which is on a crime scene, you,
you bring something to a crime scene and you take away
something from a crime scene. And there's no exception to that
because unless you don't breatheand cover yourself in plastic,
then you will always leave something behind.
There's always a, there's alwaysa little clue whether it be
(23:30):
scraping from under the nails or, you know, just, or just one
single speck of paint that was left on the victim.
And the same with the victim. There will always be this
exchange in that intimate act ofmurder.
And, and it's how I find out about homes as well.
And I love it. So the British police created
(23:52):
homes after Sherlock Holmes, obviously, but the acronym is
real. So it stands for Home Office
Large Major Enquiry System and they made.
Yeah. Isn't that really cool?
Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's computer software
because, you know, back sort of 30 years ago, all crime, you
(24:13):
know, was, could have been, you know, there was a murderer who
killed in, well, take, take our Yorkshire Ripper for example,
you know, killing different women in different areas.
And nobody joined the darts. So, and in the old days, you,
everything was written on Cardexes.
So little sort of flash cards that would be filed, you know,
(24:34):
in a filing cabinet. And I think the, the Jack the
Ripper, the the Yorkshire Rippercase, there were 2000 Cardexes
being investigated at any one moment.
So they knew they needed this software.
And so the computer basically does the work of, you know,
hundreds and hundreds of detectives and it just joins the
dots. So, you know, if you've got a
(24:56):
red car, you put the details of the red car in.
And then if there's a red car flagged up somewhere else, well,
that will tell the detectives, you know, straight away.
And the, so it brings together the, the, the work that all the
hard work on the detail. And so I use that a lot.
And then, you know, things like blood work and crime scene
investigation. I've got one of my nieces,
(25:17):
Robin. She actually studied crime scene
investigation at the university.And so, you know, we took me
through a lot of the techniques that she uses and it it's just,
you know, it's just a rolling investigation for me that I find
out about these things and then I put them into my books.
Look how. Much, you know?
You know, so much like this is really, really cool.
(25:40):
Kelly finally gets her own placein this book.
The timing is absolutely perfect.
She's starting to settle in and it's about time she left the
family home, right? Absolutely.
I mean in dart game that that that friction is there, isn't
it? You know, the, the the house is
too small. You know, she's 36.
She wants to go out and have herown life, and she's stuck there
(26:01):
with Wendy. Wendy's fractious because she's
a little bit poorly. She doesn't really know how
poorly she is. Obviously the, the, the tension
with her sister, who just sort of marches in, you know, this is
the last boundary, isn't it? You know, Kelly having her own
place. And I think that's really
significant because then she like, she's coming into her own
(26:23):
as an individual, professionally.
She's she's doing that personally as well.
And so she can, yeah, she can start to relax a bit.
And I just remembered something funny in the book.
She goes out for a drink with Johnny to the pub and she tells
him where she's bought her house.
It's in the same town as him, like quite close to where he
(26:45):
lives, in the same town of Pooley Bridge.
But I have to say, it sounds like a really nice place and I
can kind of visualise it in my mind.
You know, the back deck, it's overlooking the water.
She's having a glass of wine. It sounds really nice.
Yeah, it's a gorgeous little village.
So Pooley Bridge is is at one end of Oldswater Lake is like a
snake. It's like a serpent, they call
(27:07):
it. Yeah.
And at one end you've got PooleyBridge where the steamers put,
put, put, put down the lake to the other end, which is Glen
Riding, which is where you startthe walk to Hill Vellen.
So Pooley Bridge is a gorgeous little village and it's full of
pubs and takeaways and like little fish and chip vans.
And and I try and put these businesses into my books as
well. You know, I went, I went, yeah,
(27:29):
I went into a coffee shop and bought a coffee and pastries
with my girlfriends on a walkingtrip.
And we got talking and like theydo, one of my girlfriends said,
oh, this is Rachel Lynch. And she writes so and so and so
and so. And one of them said, oh, my
God, I've read them. They're over the road in the
bookshop. And we got chatting and I said,
can I put you in my next book? And they're, they're in, they're
(27:50):
in sudden death, they're in number #10 So that was really
fantastic. I, I imagine Kelly's house on
the walk from the town over the bridge to the steamer.
And there's a row of houses there that all overlook the
River Amont. And that's where I imagine her
living. So I I see it in my mind, you
know, when she pulls in and out on our way to work.
(28:11):
What? Inspired you to use lines from
Lakeland Poetry this time? Rage.
Because it plays a main a major part in the book, doesn't it?
Yeah. And I think actually this is,
this is what inspired the whole thing for me.
I've got this, I've got this book that I had at uni because
I, I studied English literature and history at uni and, and this
(28:34):
was part of my course. So I'm, I'm holding up a
lateland poets book, which hopefully we'll get a screened
grab of. And this is, this is my book,
which I think I bought in 1992. And I, I've always been
absolutely utterly fixated on the, the romantic poets of the
late district. And we're, we're, we're talking
about sort of early 19th century, so, and late 18th
(28:57):
century, so late 1700s, early 1800s.
And that it really is all about sort of romanticism and
existential questioning of, of your existence.
So a lot of them used to go there to get to escape sort of
the horrors of the industrial revolution.
And a lot of their poetry is sort of questioning the plan for
humanity. And so I've got, I just started
(29:18):
to think about this person who is quite arrogantly about this
sort of thing and, and fancies themselves as a, as a bit of a,
an expert on this and, and fancies themself as a, as
aligned with these, these peoplewho knew a little bit more than
the rest of us about humanity and about God's plan.
(29:40):
And, and about how, you know, the, the, the, in the, in the
early 1800's, the industrial revolution had ruined the purity
of, of, of people. And so in a way they're going
round, you know, get trying to get this purity back.
And, and leaving bits of poetry on the bodies is all about, you
(30:03):
know, saying, you know, this, this world has gone bad and I'm
clean, I'm cleaning it up for you.
There's a real arrogance behind,you know, the way that
psychopaths operate. And that's, that's the sort of
thing that I wanted to get across.
So, you know, it's, it's all about the power of nature and
the, the place of the individualin it.
And it just, I started flicking through some of the my my
(30:25):
favourite old poems in the book and and I thought a lot of a lot
of them really lent themselves to, to this sort of, I told you
so kind of, you know, didactic, you know, lecturing.
And I thought, yeah, they could,they could, they could use some
(30:46):
of these lines. And I I use so Kelly, you know,
Kelly doesn't walk around reciting poetry.
She knows nothing about Latelandpoetry.
And Emma knows a little bit EmmaHyde, which is helpful.
This is all new to Kelly. So introducing the poems was a
way to for her to discover it and for the and via that, for
(31:07):
the reader to, you know, be opened up to all of these
wonderful poems as well. And she also talks to Reverend
Neil about it, doesn't she? She, she goes at the church at
watermelon with him in the sunshine.
And they, you know, he, he tellsher about, you know, these,
these incredible people who, well, Wordsworth lived in the
(31:28):
Lake District for 50 years. And when I was at university, I
remember a lecturer telling us that, you know, like the
Coleridge, Shelley, Wordsworth. And they were big into their,
their, their recreational drugs back then as well.
Byron dropped in. And so I imagine them sat on the
top of Rydell Mount, you know, with Wordsworth toking on a, you
(31:49):
know, on a cigarette. Yeah.
And and waxing lyrical, you know, about the mountains and
the stars and so but that's the beautiful side of it.
Obviously I use it in slightly different way.
I wonder how they. Would feel about their pieces of
their poetry being used in a crime fiction novel.
Yeah, do. You know, I think they'd find it
(32:09):
fascinating because a lot of sort of loss of faith in
humanity that that that was in the poems, like, you know, sort
of sitting there looking at at the the beauty of the nature and
thinking, what have we done? And that that's a strong theme
behind all of the, the the work.So, yeah, it'd be interesting,
(32:30):
wouldn't it, to have a little convo with, with Wordsworth
about it. How hard was it?
To choose those poems. Yeah, I.
I kind of, I had that familiarity with them and I kind
of was drawn to the ones. So they're divided into roughly
into seasons and I think you know, so this, so it doesn't,
(32:53):
you know, it doesn't take much to work out that actually the
spring ones are really happy. The summer ones are celebrating
bounty, everything, you know, pregnant with life.
And then the autumnal ones and the winter ones are slightly
darker. So I started there and I've got
a few favourites that I sort of dived into and it took, it took
(33:14):
me a while, you know, to find them.
But once I started finding what I, what I was looking for, I
realised that I was looking for this sort of message, the same
message in each of them, which is the person has, has sort of
messed up the plan, whether it be God's plan or nature's plan
(33:35):
or a maker's plan, you know, whatever it is that you believe
in. But they've messed up the plan
by being a burden, by being lazy, by being greedy, by being
a bully. That's why I've done it.
But yeah, I, I had a lot of fun with that.
Hey Rach are. You able to read some of your
favourite parts of the poems from the books to us?
(33:57):
Yeah, so the. The Moira when Moira is is found
and and Ted first find finds thethe poem on her.
The the one that I've used is a poem by Shelley, which is called
the flower that smiles today andand it's about beauty, but how
beauty fades and how beauty dies.
(34:19):
And and so it was very much about how Moira was a beautiful
woman, but ruining, you know, her, her youth, the loss of her
youth. So the the quote that I actually
used was whilst yet the calm hours creep dream now and from
thy sleep, then wake to weep. So the idea that when you go to
(34:41):
sleep, you know you were beautiful, but when you wake up,
time's moved on and actually that beauty has faded.
So there's more to life. There's Moira should have made
more of herself than just her appearance.
So that that was that was, you know, that was her punishment.
You know, the a couple of other examples.
Oh, I'm. Enjoying this This is a great
(35:02):
part of the podcast because it'ssuch an interesting part of Deep
Fear book as well. I, I I.
Just love them. And then so I, I also used a
Wordsworth one as well, which he, he, I mean, he wrote so many
poems, but this one is literallyjust called lines written in
early spring. You know that that's how many
you wrote. He was like, oh, what should I
(35:23):
call this one? Lines written in early spring.
And, and this was about Brandy, who, you know, without, you
know, giving too much away. She's, you know, not a nice
person. She's got her own problems,
obviously, and hopefully that comes across quite empathetic,
quite compassionate towards Brandy.
(35:46):
I had great sympathy for her because she, you know, she
didn't know any better. However, the, the, the, the poem
that the, the, the excerpt that is left with Brandy is and much
it grieved my heart to think what man has made of man.
This this is quite a a deep sortof meaning poem and I just want
to read the last stanza for you to sort of hammer this point
(36:08):
home. So if this belief from heaven be
sent if such be nature's holy plan, have I not reason to
lament what man has made of man And so it's you know, it is
about what have we done what youknow, life and and people and
humanity is beautiful. What have we done to ruin it.
This was the question that they were sort of all as asking
(36:30):
themselves when they were writing these poems, and that's
really interesting. That you've paired that one with
Brandy and when you read the book of your already read the
book, that will make sense. We'll get to Brandy a little bit
later on in the book because in our podcast, sorry actually,
because we've got some more on her.
Do you have any other favourite sex?
I know there's another couple here.
Yeah, so. There was one that was left with
(36:54):
Aileen later on in the book. And again, you know, poor
Aileen. Without giving too much away,
the the killer was actually trying to, you know, indicate
that that Aileen was too much ofA burden on society.
And so I chose a collage poem, work without hope.
And the quote that I chose for this one was work without hope
(37:15):
draws nectar and a sieve. And hope without an object
cannot live. So we all have a purpose, and if
you don't work hard, then it's just like putting nectar through
a sieve. All that effort goes to waste.
So, so much effort had gone intocreating the beauty of the Lake
District, the beauty of people. And here we have people just
(37:37):
wasting that, you know, sort of glorious effort that we all
have, which I just thought, it'squite chilling, isn't it?
Oh, my heart goes. Down, yeah.
Yeah, it's once you get more andmore into this poetry, you
realise that it's, it's not all daffodils and and beauty.
Actually, there's a real dark side to it.
(37:57):
And they were really contemplative, these men, you
know, a lot of them were lost ifyou think about Byron and, you
know, his travels and what he got up to.
So it's really a lot of it is about finding themselves and
about confusion. And then the last one that I'm
just going to, you know, quicklygive, give you is the, the one
(38:19):
for Nicola Tower, which is again, later in the book.
And she's a terrible gossip. She just never shuts up Nicola,
does she? And so the, the, the, the one
that I, I chose was from the prelude.
Gently did my soul put off her veil.
And again, so it's it, you know,it's, it's about shutting her up
(38:40):
really, you know, revealing underneath who she is and and
and gently sort of, you know, getting, getting rid of of of
something that underneath the veil is actually not very
beautiful. So, and the prelude was
obviously one of his most famousand it is so long.
Took me. Ages to find something that was
(39:01):
yeah yeah there's a funny. There's not a funny line, but
there's an interesting line in the book when Nicola is
dispatched and then the killer has something, you know, funny
to say about. Oh gosh, now it's not peace and
quiet at last. I.
Know I couldn't. Help that?
No. I also wanted to say Wordsworth
(39:26):
is and the daffodils poem is really special to my mum.
And my mum will absolutely love this bit if you're listening.
And when she was a little girl, she used to recite the the
daffodil poem to her brothers and their friends.
So it was really lovely. It was kind of like, oh, mum,
you're gonna love this bit. You know, it's like a really
nice connection. Oh, that.
(39:46):
So cute. There's a There's a little bit
of controversy over where he wasreferring to, but I think that
most people agree that it is theshores of Alls Water, the North
Shore of Alls Water near our force.
And it was after a walk with hissister.
And he wrote it in people say that he wrote it in it by 1804.
(40:08):
But I think I'm just going to read the first and the last
stanzas, Christy, because I think it's really all of this
poetry I think is really pertinent for today because, you
know, with with so many articlesand references to mental health
and Wellness, looking after yourself.
I think I'll just read the firstand the last to you because
there's it's a real, real combination of beauty and
(40:31):
looking after yourself. I wandered lonely as a cloud
that floats on high O Vale and the hills, when all at once I
saw a crowd, a host of golden daffodils beside the lake
beneath the trees, fluttering and dancing in the breeze.
For OFT when on my couch I lie in vacant or intensive mood,
they flash upon that inward eye which is the bliss of solitude.
(40:54):
And then my heart with pleasure fills and dances with the
daffodils. It's gorgeous.
Isn't that lovely? Yeah.
Really lovely. Thanks, Rach, for reading that
out. That's great.
OK, moving on from the poetry, we find out a little bit more
about Kelly's relationship with her family and her romance with
a Johnny is blossoming. How do you balance her personal
life and the crimes? Right.
(41:15):
Yeah, I think it's. Really important to do that with
with every book. I think it's a real balance
between the, the, her investigation and, and what's
going on in my personal life. And, and whenever, you know, I
do an event, Kelly fans always ask me what's going on in her
personal life. Or like, like, like you said to
me, I think before we started today's recording, you were
(41:38):
talking about Kelly's, you know,a house and we, we talked about
the, the location of it. But one thing that some,
somebody said to me was like, when's she going to do a
bathroom when she moves in? There's like an old, it's, it's
a bit of a joke in Britain, like1980s bathrooms were like dusky
(41:59):
pink or avocado. And so she, she moves in and her
bathrooms at an avocado suite. So she that needs ripping out.
And somebody at an event said when's she going to change her
bathroom? So it's really important.
I don't think, I mean, personally, I'm not keen on
crime books that are just about the crime.
(42:20):
I want, I want to connect with the characters.
I want to know who they are and why they're doing what they're
doing. So to me, that's really
important to have that balance. Yeah.
And her and her relationship with Johnny is really important.
Let's talk about Kelly. 'S managerial style, it's really
effective and you know, so what's her secret rage?
I just think she wants. The best from people.
(42:41):
I think she was stung in London in the Met, and she's come back
and I think she works hard. So you know that that's what
people want to do for her because she kind of just sets
the examples that sets the tone.And so I really sort of lent
into how she would manage such an important team at the age of
36. Rach, the plot and character
(43:03):
arcs are so complex and layered.How do you come up with them?
I I. I actually got a message I, I
read a, a, a post on social media this week and it made me
really giggle because it was a, it was an author saying that she
was going on a plot walk. And I do this all the time,
(43:25):
whether on it's on my own or with my husband and I.
And it's really, really helpful because I'd, I don't know, you
know, everybody's different, butI find it super helpful for me.
And I literally just go on a walk and then I imagine the plot
and the characters as, as like afilm.
And so because I'm, I'm a very sort of visual writer, I've
(43:48):
always got these images going through my head and how people
look at each other or what they're wearing or how people
speak and what they what they might be doing in their space at
that moment. Because I think that readers
like to know how the characters are grounded, where they're
sitting, who they're talking to,what's in the room.
(44:09):
I think all those details are really important.
So yeah, I love that. So I'm going to use that from
now on. I'm going to call them plot
walks. And this book also, you have to
deal with multiple grieving families.
How do you balance the emotionalimpact of crime with the awful
nature of the deeds themselves? Yeah.
It's it, it, it's tough because I, I do, I do bring in some
(44:31):
really, you know, quite shockingand traumatic, you know, events.
But that's the whole point of crime, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah. That is the whole.
Point of the crime genre, they, they are super shocking, but
then you've, that enables you tobring in the, the person who
brings resolution to you as a reader and brings that
(44:54):
satisfying conclusion. So crime novels need that
resolution at the end. I mean, of of course writers can
break the rules. That's not a problem.
But crime writers are quite rigid in what they're looking
for and they're very, very loyal.
And so you, you should really, you know, stick to the, the
(45:15):
rules of the genre. Genre busting is a very risky
business. I've enjoyed developing and,
and, and working within those rules in the genre.
And one of them is, is that you have this playoff between good
and evil. And my crimes are really, really
bad and horrible. But my heroes are, you know,
(45:37):
then I'm not going to say that they're 100% good because
obviously we're all flawed, but but that brings the relief.
So if there's, you know, we talked about Lottie Davis in
dark game, didn't we, which was horrific.
But the the light and shade is that, you know, Kelly gets to
the bottom of it. And so that's the way that I
that I like to see it, which is,yes, I'm, I'm dealing with this
(46:00):
awful thing, but then my heroes are going to come along and and
make it all better. We're kind of getting.
To the end of this episode. I can't believe it's come around
so quickly. I can keep gas bagging all day
with you, Rach, but I thought this is another new little bit
for the podcast just to give a little bit extra insight into
Rachel and the book. So I'll make it really quick
(46:22):
because you know, I can crap 10.I think I can.
Too safe to say all. Right.
I had to Google a couple of things and the first thing I had
to Google is so horrific. Eggs.
What is that disgusting? Yeah, it is disgusting, isn't
it? So my agent once said to me
(46:43):
that, you know, readers love to learn something in a, in a
novel, you like to sort of come away going, oh, I, I didn't know
that. And so these little details.
And so, yeah, soporific is, is making something, you know,
immobile through sort of a drugged induced tiredness.
(47:03):
So in this case, the, the eggs on a, on a dead body are not
hatching because, you know, they've, they've been made so
horrific by a, a, a, a cold snapin, in the weather.
And and I just thought the more,the more technical you make
these gross bits, I think the more cold and shocking they come
(47:26):
over. You've picked up on that.
Yeah. And I'm going to try and.
Do that for each book. I didn't I didn't do it last
time, but moving forward and also I want to do best
character. So my best character in this
book is Brandy Carter. And we talked about a little bit
about her earlier on. And if you're reading the book,
you'll you you may very well feel the same thing.
(47:47):
She's sad person, she's lost, she's hopeless.
But it's such a sad character, you know, it was really detailed
and I really felt like I could see her and visualise her and I
didn't really feel. Yeah, it's.
It's it's tragic, isn't it? And I think with this book, it
is about that nature nurture, because Brandy's environment,
(48:09):
you know, growing up and the environment that she lives in
kind of just makes it futile and, and, and hope it's like you
said. Yeah, my.
Favourite quote in this book is on page 71 with Ted Wallace.
And he says to Kelly, he arranged her pretty good, didn't
he? He's like, I'm no detective
Kelly, and it's my job to tell you what the body went through.
(48:29):
It's your job to say why. Yeah.
And my favourite scene in this book is definitely the the scene
with the The Reverend tour guide.
They're. Like they're like a sort of
comical duo, aren't like the banter from the back of the the
tour guide because I just when you're in the Lake District, you
(48:50):
walk past these guides all the time.
And I just thought I would be great to sort of play with that.
All right. Yeah, and the professor who
still thinks he's hot, you know,picking up.
Yeah. Yeah, I think the girls in the
back in the short skirts are going to fancy him.
It's like, Oh no, he's probably got one of those.
Dirty, old greasy ponytails. It's not like you see.
(49:11):
You know. Oh, gosh.
And also really obvious in this book is Kelly Porter and her
leadership. It's constantly growing and you
can really see that she's in charge doing really, really well
in this book. So I really loved seeing Kelly's
leadership growth. OK, so something else that was
(49:32):
really cool that linked this book to the previous book was
not only the family storylines, but Paul, Flash Gordon, Dave
Crawley's mate, the scene at thepub.
And he forgives her because she's only doing her job.
And Kelly was kind of like bricking herself going to the
pub, but he forgives her. And I thought that was a really
nice, really nice way to kind ofwrap up that as well, linking
(49:55):
links to this book to the last book.
Yeah, brilliant. I'm, I'm so, yeah, I'm so
chuffed that you picked up on that as well, Christy, because,
you know, it's little details like that, isn't it, that make
these connections that, you know, all the way through.
Hopefully I keep sort of lookingback, looking forward.
There's a few cases later on in,you know, even even the one that
I've just finished in 13. She refers back to to one of her
(50:20):
previous cases. And of course, it's a small
place. So she does bump into these
people. Yeah, because.
Nikki's best friends with Dave Crawley's wife.
And yeah, it was all kind of interconnected.
So, And my funniest little scenein this book, I mentioned it
earlier, it has to be Johnny running to the running to the
scene of the crime at the very, very end of the book.
(50:41):
It just cracked me up. I just could see him in my mind
and he and he, he runs faster than anyone else can imagine.
Smoke coming off his shoes. He's wearing somebody else's
shoes. He doesn't even know who they
are. I love it.
He's normally, yeah, I don't, I mean, this, this isn't a
spoiler, but I just can't, I it's just popped into my head
(51:05):
that I can't remember which bookit is, but we'll get there.
He gets a new pair of flip flopsfor Christmas and he's
absolutely stoked. He's like, there you go,
darling. And he's like, oh, I love you.
They're amazing. Very good.
Oh gosh. OK, so.
(51:25):
Once again, thank you for listening guys.
That was we, we love this this episode and hope you will too.
And that's a wrap for today's episode of the Killer
Storyteller, the podcast with me, Rachel Lynch and Christy
Horne. And remember.
You can listen to us on Spotify,YouTube, YouTube Music and make
(51:48):
sure you subscribe so you never miss it.
Episode. I meant to say Rach, we did
record this for YouTube and I thought I'd lost the video, but
I've now found it. So we'll pop that up on YouTube
soon enough. But if you've got any thoughts
on today's chat, drop us a line.We'd really love to hear from
you and Rach, this was another killer.
(52:08):
How did you enjoy it? Fantastic.
Christy, thank you. And then and our next one
actually is going to be about the writing process itself,
isn't it? So tune into that.
That's going to be absolutely epic.
And in the meantime, you can follow us as we discuss each
book 1 by 1, wherever you are inthe series.
If you've just started, drop us a line.
(52:29):
Drop us a question that we can discuss on the podcast.
See you next time. Bye.
OK. Alright, see you next time.
Welcome back to the Killer Storyteller podcast with me,
Rachel Lynch, coming to you fromLondon today.
And as always, I'm joined by my Aussie pal, Christy.
Hi, Christy. Good day Rach, how are you?
It's great to see you and a big hello to everyone from
Melbourne, Australia. How you going Rach?
Oh yeah, really good. Thanks, Christy.
(00:36):
Yeah, just up out of bed, obviously to make our time zones
match. Yep.
I'm up and ready. I've.
Actually got the giggles I'm gonna.
Already get together. Already I know.
Good day Rach, it's so great to see you and a big hello to
everyone from Melbourne, Australia.
Today's episode is an absolute Corker as my mum would say, and
(00:58):
I'm really looking forward to discussing our second book in
the DI Kelly Porter series, DeepFear.
But before we crack an open right, it's so good to see you.
How are you? I'm really good.
Thanks, Christy. Yeah, I feel as though we're
sort of hitting our stride now, aren't we?
Because we're we're yeah, we're pros.
But what what I what I thought Iwanted to do today actually was
(01:19):
give a shout out to to Mel for the the music and the graphics
on our podcast. Because they are.
We're so lucky, aren't we? They are just so awesome.
And I just thought I'd say a little bit about how I How I Met
Mel. So Mel Steele on on social media
is boxes of noise at boxes of noise.
(01:41):
Give him a follow. And and you know, he's just so
creative. And, and I met Mel and his wife
Louise at an event at a book Waterstones in Carlisle, which
is in Cumbria. And, and we just got chatting
and then we started following each other on social media.
And, and I, I saw what he did and I, I looked at his work.
(02:02):
And then when we decided to do the podcast, I just thought, Oh
my God, it would be perfect. And I think the music and that
graphic is, is fantastic. Yeah, and we've been able to cut
it up and use it in long version, short versions, and
sometimes we'll post some socialmedia posts and just put a
little slice in between because it's so dark and Moody and
(02:24):
murdery. Is that a word?
Murdery. I love that.
But Mel's grey. He's so talented, yeah.
Yeah, and and and I just, it just struck me, you know, we to
get some original music. How lucky.
Lucky it's, you know, totally unique.
So we use it as much as possibleand it's on every episode.
(02:47):
And we also tag in Mel so he he's loving it too.
So we've had some feedback from Mel and I've got to meet him as
well. Online of course.
What else is happening in your part of the world, Rach?
Well, I just booked a holiday tothe Lake District and guess
where we're staying? OK, I don't know.
Tell me. What are we talking about today?
(03:09):
Deep fear. And the opening scene is a
church. Yeah.
Yeah. Watermelon.
We're actually staying there. Yeah.
Yeah. So it's watermelon is on old's
water, and it's slightly up a hill.
The church is at the top of the hill.
(03:30):
It's beautiful church. It's a really old Gothic church.
I'm going to show some pictures on social media for you of the
church. Yeah, it's.
Yes, it's got those, you know that that really gothic sort of
rampart on the top and and the view of oldswater is stunning
and we found an Airbnb with thatview serious.
(03:52):
That's fantastic. Oh, absolutely brilliant.
So we're going next week and so I, we, we, I'm, I'm going to get
loads of footage for you and loads of pictures for social
media to share with everybody because, you know, that is, that
is just precisely what inspires all of these stories.
Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic.
It's going to be a bit weird, you being there and like walking
(04:14):
around with your book. Yeah.
I'm going to take all all 12 of them and I think by the end of
that my husband is going to be alittle bit jaded.
Oh, take another one here looking murdery, What have I?
Found under this rock. Oh, look at steep fear.
(04:35):
Oh, hello. That's so good.
I tell you that my mum's now reading along with us, so she
started off with book #1 and which is fantastic.
So hopefully you've got that onecovered.
Mum and also a bunch of my buddies are also reading along
so it's really good. It's.
Amazing. Oh, that's awesome.
And, and a huge shout out to, you know, people on social media
(04:59):
who are sharing their stories like, you know, going for a run,
listening to the podcast or, youknow, going back to #1 when
they've already finished the whole series, sharing, like, you
know, screen grabs of the whole series.
They've been amazing, haven't they?
At the beach, drinking beer, having some nuts and one of my
(05:19):
buddies, She's my bestie, her name's Trish.
She also found out she's a certified psychopath.
Welcome to the club fresh for the for the people that are not
listening in order or just sort of tuning in.
It's it was the comment, wasn't it that that apparently
professionals say that if you watch true crime to relax in the
(05:43):
evening, which I do and you are a psychopath.
So I'm with you there, Trish. I don't think, I don't think I'm
too psychopathy. Not right now.
You seem pretty calm. It's early in the morning.
A cup of tea. And Steve's Corner bookshop,
we're loving his social posts. It's so nice of you to share the
books and it's been really fantastic to find out where
(06:06):
people are listening in and reading the books from.
Yeah, amazing. Thank you.
Thank you to everybody. It's brilliant.
All right, Rach, let's crack open the case.
I mean begin the interrogation. Oh, my God.
Sorry. I can't help it.
It's so not going to stop. Let's go.
OK, this episode we're discussing Book 2, Deep Fear.
If you've lost everything, what more is there to fear?
(06:28):
And we need to say straight awayupfront that we're not going to
give away any spoilers if you haven't read the book.
We won't be sharing endings, butwe will be discussing like the
themes and the parts of the storyline, so we will try our
best not to give away any spoilers.
And if you're reading along withus as well in real time, you
(06:50):
know it's OK where it's spoilingfor you.
But please, please, we'd love tohear from you if you're up to #2
or you've read #2 or your thoughts on the podcast once
we're once we're done today. So the first time I read this
book, Rach was also on my phone.I think it was using Hoopla or
Apple Books, I can't remember. But it's it's, it's really hard
(07:10):
reading a book on the phone because you've got to keep
flicking the pages quickly. And I actually prefer to read a
book and have it in my hand. If I'm being honest.
I don't mind audiobooks. It's not my first preference,
but having the book in my hand is my purse.
My first preference. I can't speak so I've just
reread it again and like the previous episode I have a bunch
(07:31):
of reader type questions for Rage and also some listener
style ones as well. So there's about five years
before we jump into the conversation.
So Rage, when was this book written?
So this one was written as part of the first 3 back in 2017.
So with Dark Game, Deep Fear andDead End, they were written
(07:52):
pretty quickly and ready to go when we sold the first three to
Canelo in my first deal. Oh.
That's pretty cool. And So what year was this one
published? Well, it was really close to
Dart Game, actually. So Dart Game came out in January
18 and this one came out in May.So, you know, they were really
going for a big launch. OK, that's interesting, isn't
(08:12):
it, that they kind of turned them out quite you?
Well, you turned them out quite quickly.
That must have been a really busy time for you.
Yeah, it, it, it was, but I was just so I mean, any, any writer
will tell you that, you know, when they get the, the, the
first deal, that is, you know, it's, you never think you'd have
to work again. You know, that's it.
I've I've got my first deal are made need to, I need to carry on
(08:37):
now. So yeah, but it was, it was so
it was so exciting. You know, if they said they
wanted to turn around of a couple of months for the next
one, then that was absolutely fine by me.
You know, there was so with the first three, the, the, the plan
was to get them out all in 2018 and to build a fan base.
And it worked, you know, becauseit's, it's a risk.
It doesn't always work with new launches and it really worked
(09:00):
and, and, and a lot of people connected with Kelly and that
was it. Her fan base took off from
there. So it was a good strategy.
Where were you when you wrote this book?
So this was before we had an office built in the garden
during COVID. So this one will have been
written everywhere, probably around the kids doing their
homework on the kitchen table. The front room.
(09:21):
I had a little, a little beautiful sort of old walnut
table in the front room that I used to write on back then.
And so there would it would havebeen, you know, just writing
whenever I got the opportunity around the children.
Mom, what do they say? They they say mom about 3000
times a day. And how long did this one take
(09:41):
you to write? This was, this was my hardest, I
think because it's true what they say about sequels and I
found this really, really tricky.
So it went through a few draughts.
My agent actually rejected the first draught saying that this
is, you know, this is not the Kelly that I remember from Dark
Games, so you need to do it again.
(10:04):
OK, tough. So it probably took me about, I
don't know, maybe about two or three months.
Yeah, right. And at that time, did you have a
plan for the entire series for Dr. Kelly Porter?
Right from the very beginning. So we had we had three ready to
(10:24):
go. When, when, when my agent sold
them. But I've got to say, you know,
back then, I mean, I had no ideain my wildest dreams that I
would be now starting #14. Unbelievable.
Like each book, this one's also got a theme.
And what's the theme of this one, right?
So this one is and and and making them making them all a
(10:48):
very different theme is, is really important to me.
I like to, you know, have a big change for each one.
And this one I decided to go forlike a vigilante type serial
killer. Sorry, I'm not laughing at that,
but if you've read the book, youknow that this is such a Ripper
of a book. I, I don't, I, I honestly don't
(11:10):
know why I chose that at that time, but I think it's just
little things as we'll discuss as we go, we go on, it's little
things that just pop into your head and then they don't leave.
And, and I just got hooked on this, this idea of this, you
know, the serial killer going round and sort of clearing up
(11:31):
what they perceive to be nasty and irritating and wasteful
people. So I that's the sort of the, you
know, the theme that I was goingfor.
All the books are set in the Lake District, and I'm always
interested in what season it is and what season is it in this
book, right? So it's, it's about a year after
(11:54):
dark game and so it's summer again, which is really important
for the state that the the bodies are found in.
This is the way that my mind works, Christy.
So you know that and I needed that sort of distance for her
because this is her next big investigation after the
(12:16):
trafficking case in dark game. And, and you've picked up on
this that, you know, she is a lot more confident and settled
now. So she's had that distance
between that, that last big faceand this is the next sort of
major investigation that she's facing.
And she's she's developed, hasn't she?
She's yeah, yeah. She's a lot more settled in this
(12:38):
one. Yeah, yeah, she, she certainly
is. OK, so we've, we've decided to
have a another new sort of little insert, haven't we?
And I think this is a brilliant idea, Christy.
And and So what we've decided todo is have like a little summary
each time with you giving your interpretation of each book and
(13:02):
and your main takeaways as as the reader over to you.
I felt like this this was missing out of the last podcast
and we gave a little bit of a summary, but I thought as a
reader I wanted to give it. And then also we talk about some
of the favourite characters and that.
So OK, let's talk about book 2, Deep Fear.
(13:22):
So this is my summary. It's summertime in the Lake
District. But don't let the sunshine fool
you folks. This one dives deep Into
Darkness. In Deep Fear, we're faced with a
serial killer on a mission of sacrifice and purification.
Each victim is chosen for their behaviour, greed, bullying, you
name it. And the way everything unfolds,
(13:43):
it's chillingly clever. I I really love this book.
The storylines of Deep Fear are beautifully layered.
There's a lot going on, but it never feels overwhelming to the
reader or hard to keep up. So every character, every plot,
every plot point is connected ina way that's really thoughtful
and tied. So we read a lot, we learn a lot
(14:04):
about the killer's traumatic past in this book, and it gives
so much weight to the story. Am I going so far, Rach?
So far so good. That's superb.
I'm just, I'm, I'm loving it because it's it's it's like a
trip by memory lane. Yeah.
Right. OK, so the policing is great in
this book. It's totally believable.
And again, there's a forensic side of things, like the really
(14:26):
detailed autopsy with Ted and the introduction of Doctor
Philip Modis, the handwriting specialist who honestly doesn't
stop talking. I really, really loved him.
We're going to get to this a little bit later in the EP, but
poetry plays a surprising role in this episode.
It's woven into the murders and the settings, even how the
(14:46):
bodies are placed. And then there's the reverend
and the guide and the tour guide.
What a pair they are. The conversations with Kelly add
some really good, lighter moments to this story.
That was a really cool touched rage.
I love the way that you you wovethat in.
I'm not introducing those like minor sideline characters just
(15:06):
to just to bring, you know, likea little bit of lightness.
I'm so glad that you picked those up.
The reverend, he was a crack up.I really liked him and he and
Kelly really connected. So on the home front, Kelly
finally get to own place with nofurniture, which is totally
relatable. And the ending, what the actual
(15:27):
the final showdown between Kellyand the killer is so intense.
The way the killer flips betweenpersonalities is a hostage,
hostage situation. And the grand finale is just
edge of your seat stuff. And there was something that's
really sweet from her sister. You pick it up when you read the
book, so it's just perfect. But one hilarious moment that
(15:50):
actually laughed out loud, It's right at the end of the book.
It's a shout out to Johnny Kelly's bow.
He's sprinting to the rescue in some random person's shoes that
he's found under a desk. It's just really funny and epic.
I love the way that you you, youmade that happen in the book.
That was really hilarious for me.
(16:10):
There you go, that's my summary.Awesome.
Thanks, Christy. I mean, that's, that's an epic
summary and, and, and just a, anexcellent overview of the book.
You know, I I just I love what you've picked out there and and
you've picked out some of my favourite bits too.
Oh, really? Yeah, yeah.
So. That, that, that means that like
I've, I've done my job because the bits that I, I wanted to be
(16:32):
significant, you've actually picked up on.
And so that's just amazing for me to hear that.
And, but like I said, you know, the sequel's really hard work
and, and, and one of the things that I really needed to nail in
this was that all of the, the characters that fans had started
to get behind because of #1 theyall needed to be there.
(16:55):
They needed to be dominant. They needed to be present, but
they all needed to move on in their relationships, their
personal lives. And so they all need to develop.
So, so you keep the fans that that have come back because of
of #1 so all those little details that you've picked out,
I just, I just make me make me so good.
(17:17):
I'm. Glad.
I'm glad. Yeah.
So now let's unpack some of the storylines and the characters.
I really noticed that Kelly's really growing in confidence in
Book 2. And was that done on purpose?
Yeah, absolutely. She's she's in in dark game, you
know, she's come back from the Mets and she's really finding it
difficult to fit in. She's lacking confidence and she
(17:40):
doesn't quite know who she is yet.
She hasn't formed that identity.So in Deep Fear she really does,
you know, come across as more self assured.
She's got the confidence becauseshe cracked the case in Dark
Game. Her relationship with Johnny is
is blossoming nicely. She's finding a decent man.
(18:01):
The the he's has not really got an ego and she's she's a little
bit unsure of that compared to Matt the twat, obviously, and
and her team is developing. She's making connections with,
you know, other esteemed officers and she's so she's
settling in. She's putting her feet under the
desk and we find her, you know, ready for her.
(18:23):
Her next case. Yeah, it's a big.
Case, and we touched on this a little bit earlier, but what
attracted you to a vigilante style mission oriented killer?
Yeah, so I, I don't know about you, but I, I love this, this
sort of twist on the genre. I'm a massive fan of Dexter and
(18:44):
you and I'm fascinated by. Yeah, yeah, it's.
But isn't it odd how we find ourselves rooting for the
vigilante? Now, I don't think you do that
in deep fear. But you know, on about the theme
is that this this idea that that, you know, we all want to
(19:07):
we we want fairness, don't we want justice?
And so if you've done something wrong, then you need to pay for
it. And that, and that's what this
is all based on. And and I, you know, I the, the,
the, the killer is cleaning up in, in obviously the most awful
way. And there's something braggy
about it as well, isn't there? Because you know, and I, I think
(19:29):
that is definitely you. Did you did you watch the the
final series? OK, so without without any
spoilers, it goes more into behind the scenes and and why
why maybe vigilante killers do what they do and think that
(19:49):
they're justified because the killer in Deep fear has got such
a huge ego, which is why they leave the notes because they're
toying, you know, with the police.
So all of that just really fascinates me.
Absolutely. And.
How did you research serial killers?
Like getting into the weeds of one hell because it's very
complex. How did you do that?
(20:10):
Yeah. And, and I think this just goes
back to my own fascination with,with sort of deviant crime.
You know, why, why is it that, you know, a child can be born
into one family and then a different child can be born into
a different family And, you know, they, they have such
different paths in life. And I'm a, I'm a big, you know,
(20:31):
nurture versus nature advocate. And, and I think, you know,
nurture plays a, a bigger part. That's my own personal opinion.
So I think that environment is, is it plays a huge part, you
know, in somebody's development.And I think that picking apart
this really sort of complex psychopathy from, from how an
(20:57):
innocent child goes to a really,you know, nasty, horrible dark
killer is, you know, so I did a lot of research into forensic
psychology, behavioural science,because the killer needed to
believable to be believable. You can't just create a serial
killer and they just go around killing people.
It doesn't work like that. Readers are much more discerning
(21:19):
now. They, they want everything to
make sense. So it's so the killer had to
have a believable back story that would explain the reasons
behind the crimes, Yeah. And that comes out later in the
book, which is a really complex story, very interesting.
Can understand why that person is like that person is.
(21:40):
The forensics are detailed, meticulous and gruesome and so
vivid. How did you develop these
scenes, Rachel, and bring in newtechniques like dentistry and
handwriting? That was really cool part in
this book. Yeah, I, I always, I'm so I'm so
glad that you picked up on that because I always try and
highlight a different like forensic breakthrough or
(22:03):
procedure in each book because Idon't want the, the forensic
scenes are really important to me.
And I, and I love Ted's development through the, the
series as well. And you know, his, his
relationship with, with Kelly and the first one was a little
bit more distant. They're working a lot closer
(22:24):
now, and so his work is really important and I just interview
some really interesting people. And so I'll start looking into
something or I'll watch something that I think, oh God,
that's really interesting how they did that, like the bite
analysis or, or like, you know, something that was left behind
(22:46):
at the scene and, and how they examined the fibres And then
they found out that it was from a carpet that was only produced
in Chicago in, you know, the 1950s.
Or that all that nitty gritty detail really, really fascinates
me. And, and think that's how I find
out about these, these processesand procedures like low cards
(23:07):
exchange principle, for example,which is on a crime scene, you,
you bring something to a crime scene and you take away
something from a crime scene. And there's no exception to that
because unless you don't breatheand cover yourself in plastic,
then you will always leave something behind.
There's always a, there's alwaysa little clue whether it be
(23:30):
scraping from under the nails or, you know, just, or just one
single speck of paint that was left on the victim.
And the same with the victim. There will always be this
exchange in that intimate act ofmurder.
And, and it's how I find out about homes as well.
And I love it. So the British police created
(23:52):
homes after Sherlock Holmes, obviously, but the acronym is
real. So it stands for Home Office
Large Major Enquiry System and they made.
Yeah. Isn't that really cool?
Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's computer software
because, you know, back sort of 30 years ago, all crime, you
(24:13):
know, was, could have been, you know, there was a murderer who
killed in, well, take, take our Yorkshire Ripper for example,
you know, killing different women in different areas.
And nobody joined the darts. So, and in the old days, you,
everything was written on Cardexes.
So little sort of flash cards that would be filed, you know,
(24:34):
in a filing cabinet. And I think the, the Jack the
Ripper, the the Yorkshire Rippercase, there were 2000 Cardexes
being investigated at any one moment.
So they knew they needed this software.
And so the computer basically does the work of, you know,
hundreds and hundreds of detectives and it just joins the
dots. So, you know, if you've got a
(24:56):
red car, you put the details of the red car in.
And then if there's a red car flagged up somewhere else, well,
that will tell the detectives, you know, straight away.
And the, so it brings together the, the, the work that all the
hard work on the detail. And so I use that a lot.
And then, you know, things like blood work and crime scene
investigation. I've got one of my nieces,
(25:17):
Robin. She actually studied crime scene
investigation at the university.And so, you know, we took me
through a lot of the techniques that she uses and it it's just,
you know, it's just a rolling investigation for me that I find
out about these things and then I put them into my books.
Look how. Much, you know?
You know, so much like this is really, really cool.
(25:40):
Kelly finally gets her own placein this book.
The timing is absolutely perfect.
She's starting to settle in and it's about time she left the
family home, right? Absolutely.
I mean in dart game that that that friction is there, isn't
it? You know, the, the the house is
too small. You know, she's 36.
She wants to go out and have herown life, and she's stuck there
(26:01):
with Wendy. Wendy's fractious because she's
a little bit poorly. She doesn't really know how
poorly she is. Obviously the, the, the tension
with her sister, who just sort of marches in, you know, this is
the last boundary, isn't it? You know, Kelly having her own
place. And I think that's really
significant because then she like, she's coming into her own
(26:23):
as an individual, professionally.
She's she's doing that personally as well.
And so she can, yeah, she can start to relax a bit.
And I just remembered something funny in the book.
She goes out for a drink with Johnny to the pub and she tells
him where she's bought her house.
It's in the same town as him, like quite close to where he
(26:45):
lives, in the same town of Pooley Bridge.
But I have to say, it sounds like a really nice place and I
can kind of visualise it in my mind.
You know, the back deck, it's overlooking the water.
She's having a glass of wine. It sounds really nice.
Yeah, it's a gorgeous little village.
So Pooley Bridge is is at one end of Oldswater Lake is like a
snake. It's like a serpent, they call
(27:07):
it. Yeah.
And at one end you've got PooleyBridge where the steamers put,
put, put, put down the lake to the other end, which is Glen
Riding, which is where you startthe walk to Hill Vellen.
So Pooley Bridge is a gorgeous little village and it's full of
pubs and takeaways and like little fish and chip vans.
And and I try and put these businesses into my books as
well. You know, I went, I went, yeah,
(27:29):
I went into a coffee shop and bought a coffee and pastries
with my girlfriends on a walkingtrip.
And we got talking and like theydo, one of my girlfriends said,
oh, this is Rachel Lynch. And she writes so and so and so
and so. And one of them said, oh, my
God, I've read them. They're over the road in the
bookshop. And we got chatting and I said,
can I put you in my next book? And they're, they're in, they're
(27:50):
in sudden death, they're in number #10 So that was really
fantastic. I, I imagine Kelly's house on
the walk from the town over the bridge to the steamer.
And there's a row of houses there that all overlook the
River Amont. And that's where I imagine her
living. So I I see it in my mind, you
know, when she pulls in and out on our way to work.
(28:11):
What? Inspired you to use lines from
Lakeland Poetry this time? Rage.
Because it plays a main a major part in the book, doesn't it?
Yeah. And I think actually this is,
this is what inspired the whole thing for me.
I've got this, I've got this book that I had at uni because
I, I studied English literature and history at uni and, and this
(28:34):
was part of my course. So I'm, I'm holding up a
lateland poets book, which hopefully we'll get a screened
grab of. And this is, this is my book,
which I think I bought in 1992. And I, I've always been
absolutely utterly fixated on the, the romantic poets of the
late district. And we're, we're, we're talking
about sort of early 19th century, so, and late 18th
(28:57):
century, so late 1700s, early 1800s.
And that it really is all about sort of romanticism and
existential questioning of, of your existence.
So a lot of them used to go there to get to escape sort of
the horrors of the industrial revolution.
And a lot of their poetry is sort of questioning the plan for
humanity. And so I've got, I just started
(29:18):
to think about this person who is quite arrogantly about this
sort of thing and, and fancies themselves as a, as a bit of a,
an expert on this and, and fancies themself as a, as
aligned with these, these peoplewho knew a little bit more than
the rest of us about humanity and about God's plan.
(29:40):
And, and about how, you know, the, the, the, in the, in the
early 1800's, the industrial revolution had ruined the purity
of, of, of people. And so in a way they're going
round, you know, get trying to get this purity back.
And, and leaving bits of poetry on the bodies is all about, you
(30:03):
know, saying, you know, this, this world has gone bad and I'm
clean, I'm cleaning it up for you.
There's a real arrogance behind,you know, the way that
psychopaths operate. And that's, that's the sort of
thing that I wanted to get across.
So, you know, it's, it's all about the power of nature and
the, the place of the individualin it.
And it just, I started flicking through some of the my my
(30:25):
favourite old poems in the book and and I thought a lot of a lot
of them really lent themselves to, to this sort of, I told you
so kind of, you know, didactic, you know, lecturing.
And I thought, yeah, they could,they could, they could use some
(30:46):
of these lines. And I I use so Kelly, you know,
Kelly doesn't walk around reciting poetry.
She knows nothing about Latelandpoetry.
And Emma knows a little bit EmmaHyde, which is helpful.
This is all new to Kelly. So introducing the poems was a
way to for her to discover it and for the and via that, for
(31:07):
the reader to, you know, be opened up to all of these
wonderful poems as well. And she also talks to Reverend
Neil about it, doesn't she? She, she goes at the church at
watermelon with him in the sunshine.
And they, you know, he, he tellsher about, you know, these,
these incredible people who, well, Wordsworth lived in the
(31:28):
Lake District for 50 years. And when I was at university, I
remember a lecturer telling us that, you know, like the
Coleridge, Shelley, Wordsworth. And they were big into their,
their, their recreational drugs back then as well.
Byron dropped in. And so I imagine them sat on the
top of Rydell Mount, you know, with Wordsworth toking on a, you
(31:49):
know, on a cigarette. Yeah.
And and waxing lyrical, you know, about the mountains and
the stars and so but that's the beautiful side of it.
Obviously I use it in slightly different way.
I wonder how they. Would feel about their pieces of
their poetry being used in a crime fiction novel.
Yeah, do. You know, I think they'd find it
(32:09):
fascinating because a lot of sort of loss of faith in
humanity that that that was in the poems, like, you know, sort
of sitting there looking at at the the beauty of the nature and
thinking, what have we done? And that that's a strong theme
behind all of the, the the work.So, yeah, it'd be interesting,
(32:30):
wouldn't it, to have a little convo with, with Wordsworth
about it. How hard was it?
To choose those poems. Yeah, I.
I kind of, I had that familiarity with them and I kind
of was drawn to the ones. So they're divided into roughly
into seasons and I think you know, so this, so it doesn't,
(32:53):
you know, it doesn't take much to work out that actually the
spring ones are really happy. The summer ones are celebrating
bounty, everything, you know, pregnant with life.
And then the autumnal ones and the winter ones are slightly
darker. So I started there and I've got
a few favourites that I sort of dived into and it took, it took
(33:14):
me a while, you know, to find them.
But once I started finding what I, what I was looking for, I
realised that I was looking for this sort of message, the same
message in each of them, which is the person has, has sort of
messed up the plan, whether it be God's plan or nature's plan
(33:35):
or a maker's plan, you know, whatever it is that you believe
in. But they've messed up the plan
by being a burden, by being lazy, by being greedy, by being
a bully. That's why I've done it.
But yeah, I, I had a lot of fun with that.
Hey Rach are. You able to read some of your
favourite parts of the poems from the books to us?
(33:57):
Yeah, so the. The Moira when Moira is is found
and and Ted first find finds thethe poem on her.
The the one that I've used is a poem by Shelley, which is called
the flower that smiles today andand it's about beauty, but how
beauty fades and how beauty dies.
(34:19):
And and so it was very much about how Moira was a beautiful
woman, but ruining, you know, her, her youth, the loss of her
youth. So the the quote that I actually
used was whilst yet the calm hours creep dream now and from
thy sleep, then wake to weep. So the idea that when you go to
(34:41):
sleep, you know you were beautiful, but when you wake up,
time's moved on and actually that beauty has faded.
So there's more to life. There's Moira should have made
more of herself than just her appearance.
So that that was that was, you know, that was her punishment.
You know, the a couple of other examples.
Oh, I'm. Enjoying this This is a great
(35:02):
part of the podcast because it'ssuch an interesting part of Deep
Fear book as well. I, I I.
Just love them. And then so I, I also used a
Wordsworth one as well, which he, he, I mean, he wrote so many
poems, but this one is literallyjust called lines written in
early spring. You know that that's how many
you wrote. He was like, oh, what should I
(35:23):
call this one? Lines written in early spring.
And, and this was about Brandy, who, you know, without, you
know, giving too much away. She's, you know, not a nice
person. She's got her own problems,
obviously, and hopefully that comes across quite empathetic,
quite compassionate towards Brandy.
(35:46):
I had great sympathy for her because she, you know, she
didn't know any better. However, the, the, the, the poem
that the, the, the excerpt that is left with Brandy is and much
it grieved my heart to think what man has made of man.
This this is quite a a deep sortof meaning poem and I just want
to read the last stanza for you to sort of hammer this point
(36:08):
home. So if this belief from heaven be
sent if such be nature's holy plan, have I not reason to
lament what man has made of man And so it's you know, it is
about what have we done what youknow, life and and people and
humanity is beautiful. What have we done to ruin it.
This was the question that they were sort of all as asking
(36:30):
themselves when they were writing these poems, and that's
really interesting. That you've paired that one with
Brandy and when you read the book of your already read the
book, that will make sense. We'll get to Brandy a little bit
later on in the book because in our podcast, sorry actually,
because we've got some more on her.
Do you have any other favourite sex?
I know there's another couple here.
Yeah, so. There was one that was left with
(36:54):
Aileen later on in the book. And again, you know, poor
Aileen. Without giving too much away,
the the killer was actually trying to, you know, indicate
that that Aileen was too much ofA burden on society.
And so I chose a collage poem, work without hope.
And the quote that I chose for this one was work without hope
(37:15):
draws nectar and a sieve. And hope without an object
cannot live. So we all have a purpose, and if
you don't work hard, then it's just like putting nectar through
a sieve. All that effort goes to waste.
So, so much effort had gone intocreating the beauty of the Lake
District, the beauty of people. And here we have people just
(37:37):
wasting that, you know, sort of glorious effort that we all
have, which I just thought, it'squite chilling, isn't it?
Oh, my heart goes. Down, yeah.
Yeah, it's once you get more andmore into this poetry, you
realise that it's, it's not all daffodils and and beauty.
Actually, there's a real dark side to it.
(37:57):
And they were really contemplative, these men, you
know, a lot of them were lost ifyou think about Byron and, you
know, his travels and what he got up to.
So it's really a lot of it is about finding themselves and
about confusion. And then the last one that I'm
just going to, you know, quicklygive, give you is the, the one
(38:19):
for Nicola Tower, which is again, later in the book.
And she's a terrible gossip. She just never shuts up Nicola,
does she? And so the, the, the, the one
that I, I chose was from the prelude.
Gently did my soul put off her veil.
And again, so it's it, you know,it's, it's about shutting her up
(38:40):
really, you know, revealing underneath who she is and and
and gently sort of, you know, getting, getting rid of of of
something that underneath the veil is actually not very
beautiful. So, and the prelude was
obviously one of his most famousand it is so long.
Took me. Ages to find something that was
(39:01):
yeah yeah there's a funny. There's not a funny line, but
there's an interesting line in the book when Nicola is
dispatched and then the killer has something, you know, funny
to say about. Oh gosh, now it's not peace and
quiet at last. I.
Know I couldn't. Help that?
No. I also wanted to say Wordsworth
(39:26):
is and the daffodils poem is really special to my mum.
And my mum will absolutely love this bit if you're listening.
And when she was a little girl, she used to recite the the
daffodil poem to her brothers and their friends.
So it was really lovely. It was kind of like, oh, mum,
you're gonna love this bit. You know, it's like a really
nice connection. Oh, that.
(39:46):
So cute. There's a There's a little bit
of controversy over where he wasreferring to, but I think that
most people agree that it is theshores of Alls Water, the North
Shore of Alls Water near our force.
And it was after a walk with hissister.
And he wrote it in people say that he wrote it in it by 1804.
(40:08):
But I think I'm just going to read the first and the last
stanzas, Christy, because I think it's really all of this
poetry I think is really pertinent for today because, you
know, with with so many articlesand references to mental health
and Wellness, looking after yourself.
I think I'll just read the firstand the last to you because
there's it's a real, real combination of beauty and
(40:31):
looking after yourself. I wandered lonely as a cloud
that floats on high O Vale and the hills, when all at once I
saw a crowd, a host of golden daffodils beside the lake
beneath the trees, fluttering and dancing in the breeze.
For OFT when on my couch I lie in vacant or intensive mood,
they flash upon that inward eye which is the bliss of solitude.
(40:54):
And then my heart with pleasure fills and dances with the
daffodils. It's gorgeous.
Isn't that lovely? Yeah.
Really lovely. Thanks, Rach, for reading that
out. That's great.
OK, moving on from the poetry, we find out a little bit more
about Kelly's relationship with her family and her romance with
a Johnny is blossoming. How do you balance her personal
life and the crimes? Right.
(41:15):
Yeah, I think it's. Really important to do that with
with every book. I think it's a real balance
between the, the, her investigation and, and what's
going on in my personal life. And, and whenever, you know, I
do an event, Kelly fans always ask me what's going on in her
personal life. Or like, like, like you said to
me, I think before we started today's recording, you were
(41:38):
talking about Kelly's, you know,a house and we, we talked about
the, the location of it. But one thing that some,
somebody said to me was like, when's she going to do a
bathroom when she moves in? There's like an old, it's, it's
a bit of a joke in Britain, like1980s bathrooms were like dusky
(41:59):
pink or avocado. And so she, she moves in and her
bathrooms at an avocado suite. So she that needs ripping out.
And somebody at an event said when's she going to change her
bathroom? So it's really important.
I don't think, I mean, personally, I'm not keen on
crime books that are just about the crime.
(42:20):
I want, I want to connect with the characters.
I want to know who they are and why they're doing what they're
doing. So to me, that's really
important to have that balance. Yeah.
And her and her relationship with Johnny is really important.
Let's talk about Kelly. 'S managerial style, it's really
effective and you know, so what's her secret rage?
I just think she wants. The best from people.
(42:41):
I think she was stung in London in the Met, and she's come back
and I think she works hard. So you know that that's what
people want to do for her because she kind of just sets
the examples that sets the tone.And so I really sort of lent
into how she would manage such an important team at the age of
36. Rach, the plot and character
(43:03):
arcs are so complex and layered.How do you come up with them?
I I. I actually got a message I, I
read a, a, a post on social media this week and it made me
really giggle because it was a, it was an author saying that she
was going on a plot walk. And I do this all the time,
(43:25):
whether on it's on my own or with my husband and I.
And it's really, really helpful because I'd, I don't know, you
know, everybody's different, butI find it super helpful for me.
And I literally just go on a walk and then I imagine the plot
and the characters as, as like afilm.
And so because I'm, I'm a very sort of visual writer, I've
(43:48):
always got these images going through my head and how people
look at each other or what they're wearing or how people
speak and what they what they might be doing in their space at
that moment. Because I think that readers
like to know how the characters are grounded, where they're
sitting, who they're talking to,what's in the room.
(44:09):
I think all those details are really important.
So yeah, I love that. So I'm going to use that from
now on. I'm going to call them plot
walks. And this book also, you have to
deal with multiple grieving families.
How do you balance the emotionalimpact of crime with the awful
nature of the deeds themselves? Yeah.
It's it, it, it's tough because I, I do, I do bring in some
(44:31):
really, you know, quite shockingand traumatic, you know, events.
But that's the whole point of crime, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah. That is the whole.
Point of the crime genre, they, they are super shocking, but
then you've, that enables you tobring in the, the person who
brings resolution to you as a reader and brings that
(44:54):
satisfying conclusion. So crime novels need that
resolution at the end. I mean, of of course writers can
break the rules. That's not a problem.
But crime writers are quite rigid in what they're looking
for and they're very, very loyal.
And so you, you should really, you know, stick to the, the
(45:15):
rules of the genre. Genre busting is a very risky
business. I've enjoyed developing and,
and, and working within those rules in the genre.
And one of them is, is that you have this playoff between good
and evil. And my crimes are really, really
bad and horrible. But my heroes are, you know,
(45:37):
then I'm not going to say that they're 100% good because
obviously we're all flawed, but but that brings the relief.
So if there's, you know, we talked about Lottie Davis in
dark game, didn't we, which was horrific.
But the the light and shade is that, you know, Kelly gets to
the bottom of it. And so that's the way that I
that I like to see it, which is,yes, I'm, I'm dealing with this
(46:00):
awful thing, but then my heroes are going to come along and and
make it all better. We're kind of getting.
To the end of this episode. I can't believe it's come around
so quickly. I can keep gas bagging all day
with you, Rach, but I thought this is another new little bit
for the podcast just to give a little bit extra insight into
Rachel and the book. So I'll make it really quick
(46:22):
because you know, I can crap 10.I think I can.
Too safe to say all. Right.
I had to Google a couple of things and the first thing I had
to Google is so horrific. Eggs.
What is that disgusting? Yeah, it is disgusting, isn't
it? So my agent once said to me
(46:43):
that, you know, readers love to learn something in a, in a
novel, you like to sort of come away going, oh, I, I didn't know
that. And so these little details.
And so, yeah, soporific is, is making something, you know,
immobile through sort of a drugged induced tiredness.
(47:03):
So in this case, the, the eggs on a, on a dead body are not
hatching because, you know, they've, they've been made so
horrific by a, a, a, a cold snapin, in the weather.
And and I just thought the more,the more technical you make
these gross bits, I think the more cold and shocking they come
(47:26):
over. You've picked up on that.
Yeah. And I'm going to try and.
Do that for each book. I didn't I didn't do it last
time, but moving forward and also I want to do best
character. So my best character in this
book is Brandy Carter. And we talked about a little bit
about her earlier on. And if you're reading the book,
you'll you you may very well feel the same thing.
(47:47):
She's sad person, she's lost, she's hopeless.
But it's such a sad character, you know, it was really detailed
and I really felt like I could see her and visualise her and I
didn't really feel. Yeah, it's.
It's it's tragic, isn't it? And I think with this book, it
is about that nature nurture, because Brandy's environment,
(48:09):
you know, growing up and the environment that she lives in
kind of just makes it futile and, and, and hope it's like you
said. Yeah, my.
Favourite quote in this book is on page 71 with Ted Wallace.
And he says to Kelly, he arranged her pretty good, didn't
he? He's like, I'm no detective
Kelly, and it's my job to tell you what the body went through.
(48:29):
It's your job to say why. Yeah.
And my favourite scene in this book is definitely the the scene
with the The Reverend tour guide.
They're. Like they're like a sort of
comical duo, aren't like the banter from the back of the the
tour guide because I just when you're in the Lake District, you
(48:50):
walk past these guides all the time.
And I just thought I would be great to sort of play with that.
All right. Yeah, and the professor who
still thinks he's hot, you know,picking up.
Yeah. Yeah, I think the girls in the
back in the short skirts are going to fancy him.
It's like, Oh no, he's probably got one of those.
Dirty, old greasy ponytails. It's not like you see.
(49:11):
You know. Oh, gosh.
And also really obvious in this book is Kelly Porter and her
leadership. It's constantly growing and you
can really see that she's in charge doing really, really well
in this book. So I really loved seeing Kelly's
leadership growth. OK, so something else that was
(49:32):
really cool that linked this book to the previous book was
not only the family storylines, but Paul, Flash Gordon, Dave
Crawley's mate, the scene at thepub.
And he forgives her because she's only doing her job.
And Kelly was kind of like bricking herself going to the
pub, but he forgives her. And I thought that was a really
nice, really nice way to kind ofwrap up that as well, linking
(49:55):
links to this book to the last book.
Yeah, brilliant. I'm, I'm so, yeah, I'm so
chuffed that you picked up on that as well, Christy, because,
you know, it's little details like that, isn't it, that make
these connections that, you know, all the way through.
Hopefully I keep sort of lookingback, looking forward.
There's a few cases later on in,you know, even even the one that
I've just finished in 13. She refers back to to one of her
(50:20):
previous cases. And of course, it's a small
place. So she does bump into these
people. Yeah, because.
Nikki's best friends with Dave Crawley's wife.
And yeah, it was all kind of interconnected.
So, And my funniest little scenein this book, I mentioned it
earlier, it has to be Johnny running to the running to the
scene of the crime at the very, very end of the book.
(50:41):
It just cracked me up. I just could see him in my mind
and he and he, he runs faster than anyone else can imagine.
Smoke coming off his shoes. He's wearing somebody else's
shoes. He doesn't even know who they
are. I love it.
He's normally, yeah, I don't, I mean, this, this isn't a
spoiler, but I just can't, I it's just popped into my head
(51:05):
that I can't remember which bookit is, but we'll get there.
He gets a new pair of flip flopsfor Christmas and he's
absolutely stoked. He's like, there you go,
darling. And he's like, oh, I love you.
They're amazing. Very good.
Oh gosh. OK, so.
(51:25):
Once again, thank you for listening guys.
That was we, we love this this episode and hope you will too.
And that's a wrap for today's episode of the Killer
Storyteller, the podcast with me, Rachel Lynch and Christy
Horne. And remember.
You can listen to us on Spotify,YouTube, YouTube Music and make
(51:48):
sure you subscribe so you never miss it.
Episode. I meant to say Rach, we did
record this for YouTube and I thought I'd lost the video, but
I've now found it. So we'll pop that up on YouTube
soon enough. But if you've got any thoughts
on today's chat, drop us a line.We'd really love to hear from
you and Rach, this was another killer.
(52:08):
How did you enjoy it? Fantastic.
Christy, thank you. And then and our next one
actually is going to be about the writing process itself,
isn't it? So tune into that.
That's going to be absolutely epic.
And in the meantime, you can follow us as we discuss each
book 1 by 1, wherever you are inthe series.
If you've just started, drop us a line.
(52:29):
Drop us a question that we can discuss on the podcast.
See you next time. Bye.
OK. Alright, see you next time.
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