June 12, 2025 • 57 mins
In this episode The Killer Storyteller: A Podcast with Rachel Lynch!, we dive into the creative engine behind crime fiction as million-copy bestselling author Rachel Lynch discusses the writing process and whats involved from editing to publishing.
From battling writer’s block or a DIP in writing, to chasing “glimmer moments” that ignite a story, Rachel walks us through how ideas are sparked and stories are sculpted. Discover how a “plot walk” can untangle the toughest narrative knot, and why being stuck might just be part of the process.
We also get a behind-the-scenes look at Book 14 in the DI Kelly Porter series set in Rydal Water and how the hauntingly beautiful UK Lake District continues to inspire setting and mood.Tune in for the announcement of book 14 title
Kristy brings the reader’s lens to the table, asking the questions we all want to know: How do you start? What keeps you going? And what does it take to make every book better than the last?
If you’re a writer, reader, or just curious about how killer books come to life, this one’s for you.
📖 Reading along with the DI Kelly Porter series? Stay tuned for insights with no spoilers.
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Rachel & Kristy
The Killer Storyteller: A Podcast with Rachel Lynch
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:15):
So welcome back to the Killer Story Telepodcast with me,
Rachel Lynch coming to you from the UK in London.
Thanks so much for joining us today and for our next episode
here on the podcast. And as always, I'm joined by my
Aussie mate, Christy Horne. Hi, Christy.
Good day Rach, how are you? It's so lovely to see you and a
(00:36):
big hello to everyone from Melbourne, Australia.
How's sunny UK going Rach? Looks like you've had some
beautiful weather. Yeah, it is sunny at the moment.
Actually, last, you know, last year we had such a terrible
summer. It got to about August and and I
was like, oh, we've missed summer.
Seriously, it was so horrible. But yeah, this year we've had a
(00:58):
couple, couple of weeks that have been absolutely gorgeous.
Yeah, really nice. So long way at last.
How about you? Yeah, it's a total opposite here
in Melbourne. And you can see I've just put my
jacket on because I was startingto get a little bit chilly.
And what time is it? It's it's 6:30 PM in the
evening, so it's getting a little bit chilly here now.
And yeah, we're, I think this weekend we're heading into some
(01:20):
wet weather where it's been in drought for such a long time
here in Melbourne, so we need the rain.
So. But yeah, it's all good and
it's, it's really lovely to see you mate.
How have you been? Yeah, really good.
Thanks Chris. And I've actually just booked
tickets to go to Harrogate this year, the the Easton's Old
Peculiar Writing Crime Writing Festival, which, yeah, if you
(01:45):
haven't heard of it, it is. It's been going since 1966.
So it's the longest running crime festival in the world, I
think. And it's it's in a little town
called Harrogate in Yorkshire, which is absolutely stunning.
A lot of the buildings are like Yorkshire stone.
(02:05):
It's very, very pretty. Yeah.
And, and it's, it's actually held in the Swan Hotel every
year, same place every year. So because Agatha Christie
stayed there, so that. Yeah, yeah.
So that that's the link. But yeah, it's a brilliant
festival. I've only been once before a
(02:26):
couple of years ago because it was absolutely exhausting.
Literally 4 days of just talking.
I needed a light as a long lie down.
Afterwards. So your new book won't be out by
July or? No, it won't.
I'm not celebrating a launch at this festival, but the last one
I went to, I was celebrating my million copy sales, so that was
(02:47):
really, really special. This time I'll just be able to
sort of slink into the background a bit more and just
really sort of enjoy catching upwith other writers, which is
lovely. You know, crime writers, despite
what we write about, are actually a really friendly
bunch. I think.
I think over the four days they get about 70,000 visitors.
(03:09):
Yeah. Yeah, it's really, really
popular. Wow, have you booked your
accommodation yet? Yes, I'm still I'm trooping
myself. I'm staying in the Hilton
because the breakfast is amazing.
They have a waffle maker. Oh, brilliant.
Yeah, yeah, I'd love a breakfast.
I can just totally put my nose into every bucket along the
(03:32):
buffet. It's the best.
Then you don't need lunch. You can have an early dinner.
Yeah, yeah. So that is the only reason I go
to the Hilton. So it costs me an absolute,
absolute fortune. But the the breakfast, lovely.
It's four nights, so it's like alittle holiday.
Yeah. And yeah, it it's great.
It's great fun. So that's my name.
I've just talked to that. What about you?
What have you been up to? I've just signed up to do a a
(03:56):
bike race that's coming up laterin the year, so I've joined
women's cycling club as well. So I love my cycling, but this
is called Round the Bay in a Dayand it's Port Phillip Bay in
Melbourne is really large and it's around 200 kilometres
around the Bay. And so the cyclists go all the
(04:16):
way around the Bay in a day. So I'm choosing to do a shorter
portion of it, but the shorter portion rides over one of the
biggest bridges in Melbourne. So that's the reason why I
wanted to do this ride with, with the the team that I'm
cycling with and the team's called Ladies Back on Your Bike.
So it's all about women getting back on their bike after cycling
(04:39):
or as maybe young kids or whatever.
Oh amazing. Yeah, so I love Rd cycling.
So I do a lot of Rd cycling withmy partner but get the free
jersey and get to ride over the Westgate Bridge.
Oh, that sounds awesome. You take local pictures,
obviously. When is it?
It's not till a little bit laterin the year, so it'll be in the
springtime for us. OK, We're heading into winter
(05:01):
very, very soon. So we need to get through the
next couple of months and then but need to do some training for
it, which I will. Yeah, that's what I've been up
to. All righty, Rach, let's crack
open this next episode. And today we're not exploring
one of the amazing one of your amazing books.
But today we're actually pickingthe brain of Rachel Lynch,
everybody, and exploring how youwrite a crime fiction in a book.
(05:26):
So I'm really keen to crack thisone open.
Let's go. OK, Rach, I can't even imagine
where to start with writing a crime novel, or indeed a series
of 13 like you have. You know what?
I'd need so much butcher's papers and multiple whiteboards.
(05:46):
Think A Beautiful Mind with Russell Crowe.
You know, lots of writing, excuse me, in words and plots
and stuff everywhere. So how about we just unpack a
few questions and see where we go?
OK Rach, the big question to kick us off, Where do you even
start when writing a full lengthcrime novel?
Like what's the first thing thatgets you going?
(06:06):
Well, what you said there Christy about clutter is, is
bang on. I mean, I'm sure that you know,
all, all writers are just surrounded by this chaos of post
it notes, scrapbooks, maps, books, visuals everywhere.
I think that's probably true forall of us.
How well organised it all is, That's a different story.
(06:30):
I could probably tell you where everything is on my desk, but it
wouldn't look that ordered at all.
But about actually starting, definitely.
And I know I say this a lot, butbut every, every writer is
different. Every writer has a different
process. And you know, some people start
at the end, some people start inthe middle, some people start at
the beginning, literally. And that's what makes writing so
(06:53):
interesting, isn't it? That we're all so different.
But for me, it starts with just one little spark.
It could be a plot idea or, or asingle scene or even a, a
character flaw. And then I start to think about
that tiny little seed. So, you know, if it's a person
(07:13):
or a, or a scene, and then it just builds and builds.
And I go for my, you know, plot walks, which we, we talked about
in the last episode, didn't we? I, I love that.
And, and you know, I just take the dog out and I have a little
think and I think, well, what, what would they say to each
other? What would they do to each
other? Sometimes I start with the
(07:34):
crime, you know, I, I think of all of the different crimes that
I've done. So when you're, when you're on
#14 you know, obviously it gets harder to be original.
And so I might start with, oh, well, that would, I haven't done
that one before. I haven't done that idea before.
So then I, you know, I, I start then to build characters around
(07:57):
it. The, the setting is already
there for me because obviously my books are all set in the Lake
District. And, and then I could think,
well, where haven't I sort of concentrated on before?
So #13 for example, is set around this tiny little lake
called Rydal Water. And it's absolutely stunning.
(08:19):
I'll, I'll, I'll put some pictures on, on our, on our
social media because it is, it'sabout, I think it's about 3
miles long and about, oh, about,no, about two miles long and
about 300 metres across. So it's, it's tiny and it's so,
so pretty. Lots of beautiful walks around
there. And so I just started with that
(08:41):
this time. And so I, I love, I love that
the first page isn't always the beginning.
And actually, you know, the, theenergy for a story can start in
so many different places. And I, and I, I try not to think
of me sat there facing a blank page and thinking I need to
(09:06):
write 100,000 words. I mean, that's the worst thing
that I could, I could possibly do that anybody could do.
So my daughter is in her second year at university at the moment
and she is writing a thesis, which is 4000 words, you know,
And I, I, I write that in a couple of hours.
So it's, you can't think of it as, as a, you know, as a write,
(09:29):
I'm going to sit down and write a book.
And I think when you're startingout in this industry, I think
that's what puts a lot of peopleoff is all.
I can't write a full, full length book.
It's just too much. It's too long.
I can't see it all. There isn't a vision.
But if you start with just one little idea and then build on it
(09:49):
and then the words just build upone page at a time.
I can't remember who said it, but then there's a, there's a
quote which said, which says youcan't edit a blank page.
And so you've just, you know, got to just get cracking and
then you can always edit later. But the word words build up.
So if I write, you know, 2 to 4000 words a day, it builds up
(10:13):
and it builds up. You look at your little word
count every time you finish for the day.
Then you feel a bit more confident and you get, you know,
there are milestones, there are like chunks.
So you know, 2 chapters, 10 chapters, halfway 3/4 Nearly
there. Yeah.
And so that's, that's the way that I sort of break it down.
(10:34):
And I and I, I just want to tellshare this quote with you about
getting started and just taking it one page at a time from Joe
Girard, who was a a salesman andmotivational speaker from the
US. And he actually only died
recently. He was born in 1928, but he died
in 2019. I love this and said the
(10:55):
elevator to success is out of order.
You'll have to use the stairs one step at a time.
I love that. That's perfect, isn't it?
Because it is just one step at atime, 1 foot in front of the
other. Yeah, there's no way around
that. So I guess once the once your
words are starting to form, doesit just like spew out and you
(11:19):
just like this on the on the computer, right?
Typing really fast. I.
Mean that's a question without notice.
Some, you know, some days it doesn't, some days it doesn't.
And and my, my husband's knows what stage I'm at because by my,
my, the, the loudness of my sizeand, and how fast I'm typing.
So we share an office. It was supposed to be my office
(11:41):
and then COVID hit and so you know, yeah, yeah, he's he's in
here a lot now, which is quite irritating.
He's very loud on meetings. But so he has people say to him
on meetings and he's got he's got proper like sound cancelling
headphones on. What's that noise?
(12:02):
Sounds like a machine gun and it's me typing.
It's like so smoke's. Coming off the keyboard.
So that's on a good day. But then it goes all quiet and
he pokes his head up above the computer.
He said, are you all right? I'm like, yeah, we need to go
(12:22):
for a plot walk. So it, you know, it comes and
goes. And when, when you're in the
zone and, and, and, and my, my fingers are like a machine gun,
obviously very loud. That's great.
And it feels brilliant. But then you get a dip.
And, and I think that's what writer's block is.
Writer's block is you just sort of dry up and you, you start to
doubt yourself. Oh my God, you know, And so, so,
(12:44):
so if I'm having a dip, Michael,say, are you on chapter 15?
So used to it. So obviously about chapter 15,
you know, I'm having a bit of a dip.
I'm trying, I'm starting to question the whole premise.
And so yeah, it's definitely go.It definitely goes in stages.
(13:05):
Yeah, it's so fascinating. I'm absolutely loving this
discussion, but I have to ask, how on earth do you plan out
something as big as 100,000 words over 60 chapters?
Like I know Deep Fear that we talked about in last episode is
66 chapters plus an epilogue. That's a lot of story.
Is it all structured or do you go more on gut instinct?
(13:26):
Tell us how that works. So my agent's favourite phrase
is, and it's actually on his website for his agency, and I
love the name of his agency. It's called the Ampersand
agency, which is just so cute that that symbol is just lovely,
isn't it? And I actually found a Christmas
decoration, sparkly silver Christmas decoration in the
shape of an ampersand that goes on my tree.
(13:48):
But his. So on his website he's got his
favourite phrase, which is instinct over intellect.
And when we first met, he took me to lunch at the BAFTA in
London and we got chatting aboutwhat I was doing at the moment
because he loved my first book. And so, you know, we met to talk
about him becoming my agent and I told him about all my notes
(14:10):
that I was making and things like that.
And he said, can you do me a favour?
And I said, I said, well, you know what, yes, I'll do
anything. He said, can you just put your
notes away and just see what happens for this next one?
And I was like, oh, OK. And so I actually that book
(14:31):
where he said, put your notes away, see what happens?
That was dark game. And we ended up abandoning,
Yeah, we ended up abandoning theone that I'd already written
that caught his attention. And dart game was that one that
I went home from the lunch at the BAFTA and sat there and I
just didn't use notes and I justhad it in my head and I just
(14:52):
went with instinct and, and actually, that's, that's what
I've done since. Now, I'm not saying I don't use
notes because, you know, I, I need, you can't, you can't write
100,000 words and make them makesense over 66 chapters with an
epilogue without notes, of course.
But I don't have massive, you know, planned out charts or, you
(15:16):
know, PowerPoint presentations or anything like that.
I don't, I honestly don't know where I'm going when I start.
So when I started Deep Fear, forexample, which was our last
episode, wasn't it? And I, I, I kind of started with
the, the vigilante serial killerpremise, but I, I definitely did
not know how it was going to weave in and out and all the
(15:38):
plot twists and everything. So that is, yeah.
So in the business, we we say you're either a planner or a
pantser. So yeah.
So planners plan everything out meticulously.
Then they start writing pantsers.
We start by the seat of our pants, we fly by the seats of
seats of our pants, and we just go with instinct and we just
start writing and see where it goes.
(15:59):
And there are drawbacks and benefits for each.
Because if you're, you probably come out with a much tighter
first manuscript, first draught,and probably need to do less
work in a tutorial. If you're a pantser, you
probably come out with a messierfirst draught and then you need
to do a little bit more editing.But I prefer it that way because
(16:20):
I love editing. OK, so you'll write it, then
edit it, and then it will be submitted to your publisher.
Yeah, so as as I've got further into the Kelly series, I've
become a better editor and it really sort of switches on my
teacher brain. So it's it's like marking your
own work. So I will do the first draught
(16:43):
by instinct. And I call that just my blur.
I just, you know, it's literallyjust vomiting it onto the page,
right? I've got to get this done.
So opening my computer, it's like when they say the, the,
the, the heaviest weight in the gym is the front door or the
heavier weight for a writer is, is actually the lid of your
laptop. If you can get that open and and
(17:07):
get your fingers working, then it something will always come.
And personally, I believe that writer's block is the inability
to open that laptop and actuallysit down.
It's to do with fear and imposter syndrome and stuff that
we're going to talk about in this podcast.
Yeah. So once you get cracking.
(17:28):
OK, so in the back of my mind now I'm a lot more confident
than I used to be as a writer. I'm thinking, well, OK, that
that might sound pretty shit actually, but do you know what?
I'm getting my points across. And then when I finish my
manuscript, I can go back and finish it.
Yeah. And I think in one of our very
first episodes, you said you putit into your Kindle and then you
(17:49):
listen back to it. And just as a, as a from a
reader's point of view, not fromyour.
Yeah. It's so fascinating, Rach, this
is really interesting, just sortof finding out what the process
is and and how you go about it from, from a fan that's been
reading your books for ages now.It's really, really interesting.
(18:09):
Thanks so much for sharing this with us because it's so personal
as well. It's it's, it's something that
you don't really get to talk about very often because.
I find it really fascinating. It's a very isolated profession
and actually it's lovely to talkabout it because people just see
the finished product on a shelf or on Amazon, Audible or
(18:31):
wherever it may be. And actually there's probably
two or three years work and behind the scenes for that
gorgeous cover. And so to talk about it is
actually a real pleasure for me.No, it's so good.
Let's talk about your writing process and what's that like?
Where do you write and what tools do you use?
Like you must have lots of resources.
(18:53):
Yeah, and and like that organised chaos as well.
It's so nice to have an office. So just before COVID, I was, I
was lucky enough to, so the, theKelly novels were doing really
well. And, and I made the decision to,
to treat myself as a, as a, as apat on the back for me to an
office in the garden. And, and we used a company here
(19:16):
in the UK that that's, that was,you know, did these things,
their bread and butter. And I, I, I love it.
I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's just that space for me to,
to leave the house and, and haveall of my professional stuff in
a different space. I absolutely love it.
And ironically, then COVID hit and everybody wanted one and we,
we'd got our order in 1st. So, yeah, ours was built in, I
(19:41):
think it was the October of 20. So COVID, you know, was, was
really at its height and, and but they were allowed to come
and do this in the garden because we got our order in and
then their wait time was a year.Wow.
Yeah, yeah. So that's my environment out in
my my office, which faces the garden.
(20:02):
So it's so peaceful out here. And and I've got a huge desk.
And I've just got all of my favourite things.
So I've got a massive thesaurus here, which actually the front
cover came off a couple of weeksago.
That's that's how you know how much I use it.
I love my thesaurus. I've actually just bought myself
(20:24):
a brand new keyboard because I wore the yeah, I wore the tops
off some keys of my lap one. It lasted about seven months.
All that machine gun typing. Machine gun typing Machine gun
rage. Not Machine Gun Kelly.
Oh Machine Gun Kelly. Oh my.
(20:48):
God, that reminds me, that's something we haven't talked
about on the podcast. We've got to get our Spotify
playlist happening. So.
Yeah, we absolutely have to do that though listeners and we
want input from our fans too to,you know, give us song
suggestions so we can because we've got that capacity with the
Spotify so. I'm about to add that, but on on
(21:10):
that though, that is another post it note that will now go up
on my on my notice board, you know.
Machine Gun Kelly. Machine Gun Kelly and Spotify
playlist. So I've got a notice board here
and I've got, I always have handy my, my working document,
which is all of the books. So we've started a character
(21:33):
list, haven't we? And I've started a location list
as well, because what I really want to do is a map of the Lake
District with all of the locations on.
So I've got that next to me as well.
I've got loads of notebooks and I just, it's, it's my happy
place, you know, I just feel comfortable here and I've got
everything to hand. I've got my map behind me on my,
(21:55):
on my wall of the Lake District,so I can just scoot over in my
chair and have a look at what's around Rydal Water, for example,
and build that in. And so, yeah, it's, and again,
you know, I emphasise that, thateverybody's different, everyone
has a different order, but I just feel as though that helps
me get into the zone. I'm surround, I'm in my, I'm in
(22:16):
my favourite place. I'm surrounded by all of my, my
familiar things. And I might have a few copies of
my books around because I might need to them just to check
something. I've got a speaker as well
because I, I love, you know, putting on some chill music.
We'll talk about that. We'll talk about the, the
(22:37):
playlist as well because that is, that is so important to me.
So yeah, coming out here, getting in the zone, and then
the most important thing I thinkis believing that you can get to
the end of those 100,000 words because you've done it before.
The first one obviously is terrifying because you've never
done it before. How do you even think about that
(22:59):
many words and make sense? Because I always say that the
editorial process is like taking100,000 jigsaw pieces and
throwing them up in the air and then watching them land.
I know what every single piece says.
That's how I see the editorial process.
(23:20):
It's wrong. Yeah, and it'd be hard not to.
It's so personal too. Like if somebody's going through
your your work with a big fat red pen.
Yeah, that hurts you that you get, you get used to that as, as
as you go along. And now I don't, you know, I
don't. I'm not precious about what
editors do. And at the end of the day, it's
my copyright. So I, even if somebody takes a
(23:42):
big red pen for my work, I don'thave to accept it.
And, you know, I'm very lucky tohave a fantastic editor.
And Louise Cullen, she's just incredible.
And actually, the other unique thing about about my
relationship with Canelo and, and, and its place in the
industry is that I've actually had Louise as my editor for my
(24:02):
whole career, which is so rare. So, so rare.
Yeah. So me and Louise have worked on
the Kelly books and for eight years now.
And that, that is, that is such a privilege.
And so, you know, she's, she's had a few breaks to have a few 2
babies. Yeah, yes, she's been on mat
leave for a few of them. So, yeah, she's been a real
(24:23):
constant, which is, which is brilliant.
So, and The thing is about Louise that we know each other
really well now. And, and, and actually, if she
says something, something needs cutting or this character needs
bringing forward or whatever, then I really trust her.
And I think publishing is about,is, is about relationships.
You know, your, your, your relationship with your agent,
(24:45):
your relationship with your, your publishing editor.
They are hugely significant relationships.
That is so fascinating. I love this background.
Rach, you've mentioned the ABC method before.
Can you break that down for us? Like, how does it keep a big
novel on track? So so I learned this when I was
(25:06):
a teacher. I was on a, a teacher training
course, which are great fun. And obviously, you know, for
professional development, it's, it's really important.
And I would, this changed my life that learning about this
and I use it for everything. And, and you know, you can, you
can apply it to absolutely anything.
So, so the A is basically what you have to do right now.
(25:30):
The B is what you need to do maybe in the next couple of
days. And then the C is what you need
to do over maybe the next month.You can kick it down the road
and, and, and applied to a book.It could be a piece of research,
for example, or I can't actuallywrite this chapter until I do
(25:51):
this research. So that plans your day for you
because that becomes an A, you know, on your list of things to
do that particular research. So I'm, I'm writing a novel at
the moment set in a Scottish castle.
And I've just, I've just actually learned about this this
(26:12):
thing called a ski and poop, which is it's, it's the, it's
the the place in the sock on a traditional Scottish dress where
where the Gilly, which is the hunting and fishing expert keeps
his dagger. Yeah, it's the things like that.
And so, so, so it an A on my A'son my, on my list of things to
(26:35):
do because obviously I've got 1000 things running through my
head. I've got to write this novel,
you know, where do you start? What chapter am I on?
So I, I think about what I've got to do today, what's in my
head today. And then I mark them A's, B's
and C's. So that piece of research will
be an A and then the B's would be, Oh, well, actually I don't
need to interview them until Tuesday or I don't need to do
(26:59):
like a, a character or a chapterreview until tomorrow.
So they'll be my B's and then myC's are, you know, the bigger
things like maybe having a meeting with an editor or
talking to that bookshop about going and doing an event, that
sort of thing. So really it's a, it's a tool to
organise your time. That's all it is.
Right, yeah, prioritising what'simportant, what do you need to
(27:22):
get done right now? Yeah, exactly.
That's all it is. It's so simple but effective.
The ABC's. Makes sense.
But you have your own version ofthis, don't you Christy?
Because you were saying that A is the big picture, B is the
internal structure, and C is thecharacter journey.
(27:42):
Where did you get that from? I've got up just off the
Internet. Oh wow.
Yeah, I read that. I read the ABC method.
I don't know, when I was doing some research or something, I
thought, what is that? So anyway, that's what that
popped up. So that's why I was interested
to figure out your spin on it. What mean to you, Rach?
(28:03):
That's really interesting because I think people have
taken the ABC obviously and they've they've applied it to
different jobs and, and applied to a particular book that that
makes sense. That's nice.
But but for me it's more about organisation prioritising jobs
which I found really helpful. Yeah, yeah, I'm a big list
(28:25):
writer. I've got notes everywhere, lists
everywhere, books everywhere with notes in them and stuff.
So yeah, it's, it's a tough, it's a full time job.
There is, yeah. Your books can get really pretty
dark and gritty and super intense.
How do you switch off from when you close the laptop?
(28:47):
So what do you do to get to decompress?
Do you you're an alcoholic? Do you drink a lot?
Or do you do lots of yoga and drink peppermint tea like me?
So how? What do you do to decompress?
Yeah, it's a really good question because I think it's so
important. And I think that we can all
forget to do that, can't we? You know, I was, I was talking
(29:10):
to my daughter only yesterday. She was feeling really
overwhelmed with, yeah, with some work that she had to do.
And she's, she felt really, really tired.
She'd been at the library. She started yawning and and I
was like, listen to your body, you know, go for a nap.
So I think my answer to that is whatever makes you feel nice.
And I have this thing which they're called glimmers.
(29:34):
And you, you can, you can look this up, you can Google it.
And, and a glimmer is so you, you have this feeling of joy.
And so it could be walking in the country and you see a bird
or whatever. And it just gives you this real
sort of hug of joy. And I think that looking for the
glimmers is, is, is what I do torelax.
(29:57):
So I, I think about what, you know, gives me pleasure.
And actually, I find yoga reallyquite boring.
It's not yoga. I don't do you know what I
actually yoga for me is counterproductive because
there's not a lot going on. So I start thinking.
Yeah, your mind starts racing. Yeah, exactly.
(30:19):
So, you know, I'm, I'm doing downward dog and I'm and I'm
thinking about, you know, defrosting a body to autopsy it.
It's not good. It's not.
That's not. What was that thing we had in
the last podcast with the eggs are gone dormant?
Horrific. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yoga is too. So horrific for me.
It's so, yeah, I need some. So not, not to criticise all the
(30:43):
yoga Zen out there, obviously it's a beautiful thing.
But personally I need, I need something a bit more sort of
full on. So I go to the gym.
I actually don't drink alcohol. Yeah, I used to drink.
I gave I gave up drinking booze about five years ago and.
That's the same as us. But yeah, I do love a good
(31:06):
mocktail. Oh yeah.
Let's talk about some music. My mood always dictates what I
listen to. For example, if it's Belinda
Carlisle 1980s, something to boparound, Kylie Minogue.
Or if I'm feeling like I just need to calm down a little bit,
I'll Chuck on some classical, which I love classical music.
What do you work to Rach? Yeah, I'm the same as you.
(31:26):
It's definitely me dependent. So I've been working out to 80s
music recently, which is just hilarious.
Like voyage, voyage, can remember that voyage, voyage and
you know, Starship, we built teaand sisters are doing it for
themselves. You know, the Eurythmics with
(31:47):
Franklin and all of that. Oh my God, I've been loving it.
So it all depends on my mood andwhen I work.
I've got this this, you know, big speaker by my desk, which I
turn down low so I can't have it, you know, blasting out, but
just like gentle in the background.
And I so I listen to a lot of classical piano and chill out
compilations. And just recently I've been
(32:09):
starting to listen, starting to listen to country where in the
background, which which is lovely.
It's just really gentle and I think it just makes me a bit
soporific. And how many days, how many
times can we get it in with Machine Gun Kelly?
Yes. It just sort of calms my nervous
(32:30):
system down and gets me in the zone and on, off I go.
And the machine gun? We're going to talk a little bit
more about the Lake District. It's such a big part of the
Kelly Porter series, and how often do you go there?
And we talked about this before,but do you go there to gather
inspiration or is it for location scouting?
What's the deal with that? Yeah, but it's a bit of both.
(32:52):
And I try, Yeah, I mean, I try to go as much as I can because
we live in Hertfordshire now, which is near Cambridge, kind of
in between London and Cambridge.So it's about 4 1/2 hours drive
to get up to the Lake District from where I am now.
So it's a bit of a. That's not far at all.
It's not far me planning. Yeah, sorry, I'm talking for an
(33:14):
Australian, aren't I? Yeah, just next door.
In fact, I'm just going to nip there now.
Yeah, you're talking to a British person, Christy.
That was for hours. But yeah, so I, I try and get
back there at least once or twice a year and.
And we are going in a week's time, actually, it's bank
(33:35):
holiday weekend here in the UK next week next all.
Right, so by the time this episode comes out, you would
have already been. But yeah, I'll, I will take
loads of, you know, pictures andevery time I go and I try and
take loads of, you know, really interesting pictures like
pathways and lakes and dock places and interesting places
(33:57):
that inspire stories. So, so yeah, absolutely.
Every time I go I get new inspiration.
It could be an abandoned stone shepherd's Hut, you know, along
a walk, or it could be the side of a lake.
It could be under a tree, just one view.
And that could inspire a character.
Could actually be on top of scarf help.
(34:18):
I can be over over eavesdroppingon somebody's conversation.
I'm thinking, yeah, that's an interesting character.
So, so absolutely. Will there be snow?
No, no, they're not that high. So interestingly, we went to the
French Alps a couple of years ago in summer and there's still
snow on Mont Blanc. And so Mont Blanc is about four.
(34:41):
Is it about 4000 metres? So Mont Blanc is about, yeah,
that's about 12,000 feet, isn't it?
So in the Lake District we're we're on 3000 feet.
So we're dinky. Yeah, I think, I think most
Mountaineers would call them little hillocks.
However, some very famous Mountaineers do love the Lake
District because technically they're they're really
(35:04):
interesting walks. So, so we're we're very proud,
we're very proud of them. We call them mountains.
They're. Beautiful.
And because it's coming into such a beautiful part of the
season and we follow lots of people on Instagram, on the
Killer Storyteller Podcast Instagram page, there's been all
of these wonderful, you know, people saying, oh, I'm going to
(35:25):
do this walk today. And it's only a six, you know, K
walk and it's all flat and, you know, let me take you along.
So I feel like I'm going along for the journey at the moment.
It looks so beautiful and all the bluebells are out.
Yes, yeah. And and with that, when you get
a good day in the late district with that blue sky, it's just it
just frames everything. It's stunning.
Yeah. So I'll get I'll get loads next
(35:47):
week. Hey, Rachel, can we talk about
your agent for a SEC? So I'm really keen to understand
what your, what does your agent do?
Because I have absolutely no clue.
And how did you connect with them?
Because in my mind, they're sortof sitting in a big office, you
know, you know, downtown with smoking a big fat cigar behind a
(36:08):
big desk. Is that how it really is in real
life? I'm sure, I'm sure that's what
it used to be. No, without a shadow, a doubt.
I'm thinking like, you know, some of the scenes.
Yeah, absolutely. And but, but, but nowadays, you
know, like like all industries, it's a lot of it's gone online
(36:28):
and you know, yeah, yeah. So and there's a lot more women,
a lot more female agents out there.
It used to be publishing used tobe quite a, a male orientated
space. That's changing now.
But yeah, there's, there's lots of, there's, there's lots of
information out there on what a good agent is because it's
obviously important, isn't it? I mean, it's like, you know,
(36:49):
they are the gatekeepers of the publishing world.
Finding one that you click with is really, really important.
But there's more to it than that.
And, and I mean, I, I feel very lucky that I found my agent
Pete. Peter Buckman has been working
in the industry since he was in his 20s and he's now in his 80s.
So he's got, you know, bags of experience.
(37:10):
And if, if I just sort of go into a few things about what a
good agent looks like, one of them his experience and, and
Peter's got, you know, bags of it.
So I trust him in that sense to have my back.
And really an agent is, is, is like a talent scout.
They're the ones who spot the talent and then sell the talent
(37:33):
to the publishers. So you probably hear a lot at
the moment about self-publishing, about indie
publishing, that sort of thing. And I have massive respect for
for those authors and, and it's,you know, there's lots of ways
you can do that now. But my personal preference, I, I
said to myself about 10 years ago now about 2015, that I was
(37:54):
going to write and then I was going to just keep on writing
and wait until I was agented because I just wanted that level
of protection. And that was just this my
personal choice. So what makes a good agent?
Well, they take, they take 15% of your earnings.
So they need to earn that. And a good agent negotiates the
(38:17):
deal and protects you from the publishing world, which can be
quite a brutal place to be in, You know, all that technical
language that's in their contracts and all of that.
You might miss something. People have missed TV rights
and, and, and, you know, film rights being signed away, that
sort of thing. You know, I'm, I'm not, I'm not,
I'm not, I'm not a contract maker.
(38:38):
I'm a writer. So you know that that's his job.
You know, they fight your corner.
A good agent should be accessible.
You know, they, they answer youremails, you know, they don't
view, you know, hanging. I mean, Peter, unless he's a
London Book week or, you know, he's away with his family,
he'll, he'll answer me within hours.
(39:00):
And he's always been like that, you know, So he's, he's
accessible, he's honest. He doesn't promise me the world.
If, if, if, if an agent says to you, oh, I can make you famous
or I can sell 100,000 bucks, youneed to run because, because
nobody that you know, Peters honest.
He's like, well, we'll, we'll see what happens.
(39:21):
What do you want to do? What do you, what do you want to
do next? And I'll say, well, I'm thinking
about maybe doing another Helen or maybe another Kelly or I've
got this idea for a stand alone.And he's like, well, what, what
makes you more most excited? And I'm saying, well, maybe the
next Kelly and he'll say, well, then that's what you should
write then and send it to me when you're ready.
And I'll tell you what you think.
He's completely open and honest with me.
(39:43):
And he's also my biggest advocate.
You know, he's, he's utterly passionate about my work.
Ironically, he's not a huge crime fan and I make him fringe
sometimes. Really.
I bet yeah can be pretty gruesome in some of the scenes.
Yeah, absolutely. And and so he's, it's all about
the writing. It's all about how the book
(40:03):
flows, how it reads, how it connects, how it makes you feel.
Because over the years, you know, I've learnt that writing
is not just about telling the story.
It's not just about being cleverwith the plot.
It's, you've got to have an emotional response in the reader
because they've, they've got to want to come back for more.
And he's got, he's got to have those business skills, which I'm
absolutely useless at. The biggest thing is that you've
(40:24):
got to click. So when he invited me, the
process is, is that you send your first 3 chapters off to two
agents to get their attention. The vast majority say no because
they're so busy. They get thousands and thousands
a week to, to go through. So you know, that process is
notoriously depressing. But what you do want is an
e-mail to pop into your box saying, oh, I loved your first 3
(40:47):
chapters. I'd like to read the whole
manuscript. And when that happens, it's
like, Oh my God. So he did that and then he
invited me for lunch in London. I went along to the BAFTA, which
was pretty cool because I've never been there before, and we
chatted and we just clicked instantly.
And that is so important becauseI hear horror stories all the
(41:09):
time about all sorts of things to do with the publishing world
and about people not getting on,about people being ignored,
about editors leaving. And then the next editor who
places them doesn't like the books.
They have to write a new one. And it's honestly, the stories
are terrifying. And so that that human
relationship, like my relationship with Louise, my
(41:31):
editor, are the, you know, the the kingpins of your career.
You've been so lucky and it's it's really wonderful to hear,
you know, you're still continuing to work with some of
the same people you started off with 10 years ago.
What's your publishers input like and how does that work and
how did you land your first deal?
So that was that was Peter. 'S job and, and so once you once
(41:55):
you get an agent, they then findyou the deal.
That's how they earn their money.
And and so when Peter came to meand said, you know, I've got
this editor, she is enthusiasticabout your work.
She wants to have a chat with you.
So I organised a chat with her and, and again we clicked and,
and, and we were, you know, we, we couldn't shut up about dart
(42:17):
game. She was so enthusiastic about
it. And so I signed with them and
she said, you know, if you've got any more.
And I said, well, actually we'vegot 3 ready.
And she said, OK, so the, the, my first contract contract was
for three and then they've rolled in threes from them.
And so, so that was back in 2017.
(42:37):
And again, Louise is a, she's champion of Kelly and my work
and she's seen her grow. So that's another, you know,
lovely thing about staying with the same editor.
And so basically I will write myfirst manuscript, my first
draught, then that I'll send that to Peter first of all.
And he'll tell me yay or nay. He'll say, Oh my, like, I don't
(42:58):
like that. Then I'll play around with it
for a bit. Then I'll send it to Louise and
then she'll say yay or nay and, and she'll say, actually this,
this is really tight already. We'll send it straight to copy,
edit, edit. And so that is like an external
editor who may or may not know me and my work.
(43:20):
A lot of them do, some of them don't.
And so that will be like plot holes, grammar, things that
maybe don't quite work, things that.
Yeah, things that you've missed,sentences that don't really make
sense. So it's really a very technical
part of the process and then really interesting.
Yeah. Yeah, and it goes through
(43:42):
several. Of those hoops until finally a
professional proofreader will just, you know, check the final
manuscript. And, and so it really is a
journey and it's a, it's a wholeteam, you know, be behind it
because everybody sees differentthings.
And, and you know, you, you justmentioned there that, you know,
I put my, one of my final draught through my Kindle.
(44:05):
So that draught that I put through my Kindle is actually
one of the later ones when it's been finessed already by editors
right myself. And So what I do is I put it
into my Kindle and then I sit and I read it with a reader's
head on. Yes.
And the difference it makes because I'm not, I'm not, I'm a
professional space. I'm not in my editing space.
(44:27):
I'm not in my teacher space. I'm not in my business space.
I'm just a reader and so I pick up different things and so I
then go back before the proofread and, and just, you
know, make tiny little changes then that I've picked up.
And it's a really, I find it a really helpful tool.
And then, yeah, then it goes to artwork.
(44:47):
It will, it'll have been to artwork a lot earlier than that
because as soon as you've got your story, you know the
flavour, then it goes to artwork.
And then the publicity team, sales and marketing team.
And then, yeah, you've got publication dates.
So that whole process probably takes, you know, a year, year
and a half. Wow, such a long process.
That's. Great.
(45:08):
What a fantastic insight we're getting from your age.
This is so fantastic in your opinion.
So what are some of the downsides to writing novels and
what is it that most people might not see?
What do you find really tough behind the scenes?
Yeah, it's, it's an interesting one because I think you.
Spend a lot of time dreaming about being a published author.
(45:30):
You know the stats are really terrifying.
You know the amount of people who send books in to agents, the
amount of rejections you get, the amount of people who
actually make a living from it. The amount of people you see on
the front shelf of a bookshop. Or getting a review in a really
high profile newspaper like here.
You know, the to get a review inThe Sun newspaper and the Daily
(45:53):
Mail, which I did for for the rich was, you know, it's huge.
And so you sit dreaming for a long time about writing.
But then when it happens and andyou become fortunate enough to
do this full time, and then thenyou realise that actually it's
an incredibly lonely profession because I'm sat here in my head
(46:15):
all day, which sometimes is not a very healthy thing to do for
any of us, right, Is it? Yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah. So I.
Have to make sure that. I, I stop that isolation and I
break that isolation. So I go for a lot of coffees
with friends, I go for lots of dog walks and I try and look for
those glimmers, you know, those,those those deep joy moments to
(46:37):
to make me happy because I'm a crime writer.
So I not only spend my time on my own in my head, but I spend
my time on my own in my head killing people.
So, so, you know, it can be quite dark.
So the, you know, other, other things that I, I never expected
to, which surprised me was the worry, the anxiety that comes
(46:59):
with writing. Because you know, you have this
incredible moment where everybody's interested in you
and everybody celebrates you on publication day and you get
invited to places, interesting places.
You get invited to speak about your books, but then you start
to worry about, well, can I write another one?
(47:21):
Can I keep this going? So there's this constant anxiety
that follows you about, you know, your ideas.
Are they are they ideas going todry up?
Is the, is the fashion going to change?
Am I going to become irrelevant?Am I going to become dated?
So there's that as well. There's, there's also, you know,
a little sort of devil on your shoulder asking, you know, if
(47:44):
you're legitimate, are you good enough?
Because it's an art, isn't it? So like any art, like any
creative thing, it's very, very personal and very, very
subjective. So, you know, and we might go to
the National Portrait together, you know, you'd love 1 portrait
and I'd hate it and, and I'd love the other one and you'd
hate it. So that's what you're up
against. And, and some people can be
(48:05):
quite cruel. I don't, I don't actually read
reviews anymore because it doesn't really make any
difference. You know, I love it that I
you've got almost 13,000 reviewsfor Dark Game, but I don't I
don't read many of them because it's it can be quite upsetting
if somebody's criticised you personally for something that
(48:26):
you've written. And actually Dark Games got
nothing to do with me or very little to me.
You know, you've created this thing.
Yeah, it's like a pop star beingbeing criticised for a lyric,
but but personally attacked, youknow, it's this, it's this
personal attack, which is is difficult to deal with.
So that's that's hard. And then another thing which is
(48:49):
hard is, am I successful? You know what, what is success
is success. Money is success.
How many times I get invited to speak is success.
How many friends I have on Twitter is success.
The reviews I get is success, whether a huge name, likely
(49:10):
child has actually given me an endorsement is success
consistent royalties is, is success walking into a big
bookshop in Piccadilly in the centre of London and it and it
being on the front table, which actually I will add that
publishers pay for. So, you know, it's, it's an A
really interesting world and I think you've just got to do you,
(49:35):
you've just got to have that younever give up.
You know, that that self belief that actually successes to me is
the fact that I'm still enjoyingit.
Yeah. And if I sell books and I get
fans and they want me to to engage with them on social
media, then that is just the icing on the cake.
That is incredible. I mean, I got a message recently
(49:59):
from somebody, a woman in the UKwho said that she'd been
diagnosed with cancer and she was going into hospital with to
have her treatment and she'd taken the first of my five books
and it was getting her through her cancer treatment.
There is no better endorsement than that, is there?
And you get no money in the world or being invited onto
(50:22):
panels to talk about yourself. None of that compares to that.
I mean, that is just the best thing that it's so humbling, the
thought that that she was going through this thing and and, and
I provided her with some light relief.
Really lovely have to say. Working with you on the podcast
and starting the Instagram page and the Twitter, the X page, you
(50:45):
have the loveliest followers. They're so lovely and kind and
thoughtful and send beautiful messages and beautiful photos of
them with their books and reading the books and giving,
you know, reviews. You got a 10 out of 10 review
from Molly Molly's books. We're gonna use that in one of
our social posts. But you have the most loveliest
(51:07):
followers. And it's, it's such a delight to
be a part of that. That must make your heart feel
really full when you read those types of messages.
Yeah. And that that's, that's a
glimmer. You know that I was talking
about. Yeah, that's awesome.
Deep joy. You wake.
Up and somebody in, you know, Melbourne or somebody in Canada
(51:28):
or somebody in Scotland has sentyou a message like that.
Yeah, yeah. It's incredible, yeah.
You've just we've talked about. You've finished writing Kelly
13. We don't know the title of it
yet which is so exciting. Can't wait to read it, but I
want to know what it feels like when you've finally completed
(51:48):
that whole entire process that we've talked about.
You've submitted it to your agent, the publisher, We've
talked about the process just just now.
But what's that relief feel like?
And you've talked about what thetimeline is until it goes on the
store. But like, Oh my God, there's so
many questions, right? This podcast is going to be
another 4 hours long. We're doing like an.
(52:10):
Episode on each book. But then when we come to the
actual nitty gritty behind the writing, we write so much and
I'm so. Fascinated by what happens
behind the scenes I love that yeah.
But I guess what I'm trying to get to is what does it feel like
when you've you've passed it allon like Kelly 13's gone now
Yeah. It feels amazing and.
And it. Just, it just gets stored away
(52:32):
in my nervous system that I can still do it and that I've just
written another 100,000 words and that it's OK, everything's
going to be OK. I can still do this.
So that's nice. That's the, I think that's the
instant feeling. And then I have a few days off
and, and when I finished Kelly 13, which I can tell you is
going to be called false witness.
Oh wow. False witness?
(52:55):
Oh, you've heard it here first. That's exciting.
So when I finished that last week.
I went to Cambridge with my friend Jackie and it was a
beautiful day. It was gorgeous weather and we
chatted and we went in and out of shocked, we window shocked
and we had gorgeous lunch and itwas just so, so nice.
(53:15):
And, and so that is the sort of thing that I do to celebrate
such a special time. And then it's not, it's not too
much longer after that that I'd start thinking about the next
one. Yeah, I have to put a request in
you. Have to write a follow up to The
Rich. The Rich is my most favourite
book so far. I haven't read all of the books
(53:38):
yet. Brilliant.
One of the things that I get feedback on is that it doesn't
take people very, very long to read them, which is a compliment
to me. It's a double edged sword
because it's a compliment. Because thrillers need to be
thrilling, don't they? You don't want to put them
(53:59):
around. So that's good Tick.
I've done my job. But also then it's like, Oh my
Lord, write, OK, I need to writequicker because I generally
publish about two or three a year, and that's quite a lot for
the publishing industry. So it is.
Yeah. I'm constantly either writing
one, thinking about the next one, or editing the last one.
(54:19):
So it never, ever stops, which is great because everyone wants
to be busy. Yeah, of course you're super
busy. Oh God, I reckon we haven't even
scratched the surface on so manytopics, Rach.
There's so many discussions thatwe're going to talk about in
depth in other episodes like Autopsy, your in depth research,
(54:40):
marketing, promotion, how you get access to speak to
specialists and those experts, which I find really fascinating.
So many ideas, but I feel like this has been a really good
discussion. Such a great chat today and and
also I think I think. The other thing that's, that's,
that's come out of today in particular for me is, is the,
(55:04):
you know, the, the difference between the process and, and
then the actual craft. And, and we're going to do a
whole podcast on that. Aren't we like a, a sort of, you
know, my take on on what makes aa killer story?
It could be like a master class.We could even.
Yeah, that would be so good. I really.
(55:25):
Love this episode. It's such a great insight into
behind the scenes and how you write and how it all kind of
comes together. It's really interesting.
We hope you find it really interesting too.
So I think that's a wrap for this episode.
Isn't it Christy, and thanks so much for listening.
We've, we've loved this episode and like Christie said, I mean
(55:47):
that we could just go on about, you know, the background, what
goes on, what goes into a novel and how it, how it feels and
what, you know, what my days arelike.
We, we just hope that you've enjoyed it as much as as we
have. And, and next time we'll, we'll
be exploring #3 dead end. Can't wait for that.
One of my favourites is it, yeah.
(56:09):
So if you haven't read that yet that you've got some catching up
to do, or if you've read them all and you're going back, then
let us know. Let us know any questions you
might have that we can discuss on the podcast.
We'd love to hear from you. Absolutely.
I'm just about to. Jump back into dead end.
I have read it, but I want to, Ineed to reread it and make my
notes so we can have that for the next podcast.
(56:31):
But yeah, if you haven't read it, jump in now.
It's perfect time to crack it open.
And remember, you can listen to us on Spotify, YouTube.
We think this will be up on YouTube so you can watch us as
well. I don't think I'm going to edit
the YouTube 1 so people can see it warts and all.
YouTube Music and be sure to. Subscribe so you never miss an
(56:52):
episode. How did you feel this episode
went? I loved it.
Christy, I I absolutely. Love sharing, you know, all the
behind the scenes stuff and because it it just you know, it
just means that readers get to see what's behind the finished
product and and all the stuff that and all that so many people
and their input that goes into actually that book that you see
(57:14):
on the shelves. Alright, until next time, see
you. Later, bye.
So welcome back to the Killer Story Telepodcast with me,
Rachel Lynch coming to you from the UK in London.
Thanks so much for joining us today and for our next episode
here on the podcast. And as always, I'm joined by my
Aussie mate, Christy Horne. Hi, Christy.
Good day Rach, how are you? It's so lovely to see you and a
(00:36):
big hello to everyone from Melbourne, Australia.
How's sunny UK going Rach? Looks like you've had some
beautiful weather. Yeah, it is sunny at the moment.
Actually, last, you know, last year we had such a terrible
summer. It got to about August and and I
was like, oh, we've missed summer.
Seriously, it was so horrible. But yeah, this year we've had a
(00:58):
couple, couple of weeks that have been absolutely gorgeous.
Yeah, really nice. So long way at last.
How about you? Yeah, it's a total opposite here
in Melbourne. And you can see I've just put my
jacket on because I was startingto get a little bit chilly.
And what time is it? It's it's 6:30 PM in the
evening, so it's getting a little bit chilly here now.
And yeah, we're, I think this weekend we're heading into some
(01:20):
wet weather where it's been in drought for such a long time
here in Melbourne, so we need the rain.
So. But yeah, it's all good and
it's, it's really lovely to see you mate.
How have you been? Yeah, really good.
Thanks Chris. And I've actually just booked
tickets to go to Harrogate this year, the the Easton's Old
Peculiar Writing Crime Writing Festival, which, yeah, if you
(01:45):
haven't heard of it, it is. It's been going since 1966.
So it's the longest running crime festival in the world, I
think. And it's it's in a little town
called Harrogate in Yorkshire, which is absolutely stunning.
A lot of the buildings are like Yorkshire stone.
(02:05):
It's very, very pretty. Yeah.
And, and it's, it's actually held in the Swan Hotel every
year, same place every year. So because Agatha Christie
stayed there, so that. Yeah, yeah.
So that that's the link. But yeah, it's a brilliant
festival. I've only been once before a
(02:26):
couple of years ago because it was absolutely exhausting.
Literally 4 days of just talking.
I needed a light as a long lie down.
Afterwards. So your new book won't be out by
July or? No, it won't.
I'm not celebrating a launch at this festival, but the last one
I went to, I was celebrating my million copy sales, so that was
(02:47):
really, really special. This time I'll just be able to
sort of slink into the background a bit more and just
really sort of enjoy catching upwith other writers, which is
lovely. You know, crime writers, despite
what we write about, are actually a really friendly
bunch. I think.
I think over the four days they get about 70,000 visitors.
(03:09):
Yeah. Yeah, it's really, really
popular. Wow, have you booked your
accommodation yet? Yes, I'm still I'm trooping
myself. I'm staying in the Hilton
because the breakfast is amazing.
They have a waffle maker. Oh, brilliant.
Yeah, yeah, I'd love a breakfast.
I can just totally put my nose into every bucket along the
(03:32):
buffet. It's the best.
Then you don't need lunch. You can have an early dinner.
Yeah, yeah. So that is the only reason I go
to the Hilton. So it costs me an absolute,
absolute fortune. But the the breakfast, lovely.
It's four nights, so it's like alittle holiday.
Yeah. And yeah, it it's great.
It's great fun. So that's my name.
I've just talked to that. What about you?
What have you been up to? I've just signed up to do a a
(03:56):
bike race that's coming up laterin the year, so I've joined
women's cycling club as well. So I love my cycling, but this
is called Round the Bay in a Dayand it's Port Phillip Bay in
Melbourne is really large and it's around 200 kilometres
around the Bay. And so the cyclists go all the
(04:16):
way around the Bay in a day. So I'm choosing to do a shorter
portion of it, but the shorter portion rides over one of the
biggest bridges in Melbourne. So that's the reason why I
wanted to do this ride with, with the the team that I'm
cycling with and the team's called Ladies Back on Your Bike.
So it's all about women getting back on their bike after cycling
(04:39):
or as maybe young kids or whatever.
Oh amazing. Yeah, so I love Rd cycling.
So I do a lot of Rd cycling withmy partner but get the free
jersey and get to ride over the Westgate Bridge.
Oh, that sounds awesome. You take local pictures,
obviously. When is it?
It's not till a little bit laterin the year, so it'll be in the
springtime for us. OK, We're heading into winter
(05:01):
very, very soon. So we need to get through the
next couple of months and then but need to do some training for
it, which I will. Yeah, that's what I've been up
to. All righty, Rach, let's crack
open this next episode. And today we're not exploring
one of the amazing one of your amazing books.
But today we're actually pickingthe brain of Rachel Lynch,
everybody, and exploring how youwrite a crime fiction in a book.
(05:26):
So I'm really keen to crack thisone open.
Let's go. OK, Rach, I can't even imagine
where to start with writing a crime novel, or indeed a series
of 13 like you have. You know what?
I'd need so much butcher's papers and multiple whiteboards.
(05:46):
Think A Beautiful Mind with Russell Crowe.
You know, lots of writing, excuse me, in words and plots
and stuff everywhere. So how about we just unpack a
few questions and see where we go?
OK Rach, the big question to kick us off, Where do you even
start when writing a full lengthcrime novel?
Like what's the first thing thatgets you going?
(06:06):
Well, what you said there Christy about clutter is, is
bang on. I mean, I'm sure that you know,
all, all writers are just surrounded by this chaos of post
it notes, scrapbooks, maps, books, visuals everywhere.
I think that's probably true forall of us.
How well organised it all is, That's a different story.
(06:30):
I could probably tell you where everything is on my desk, but it
wouldn't look that ordered at all.
But about actually starting, definitely.
And I know I say this a lot, butbut every, every writer is
different. Every writer has a different
process. And you know, some people start
at the end, some people start inthe middle, some people start at
the beginning, literally. And that's what makes writing so
(06:53):
interesting, isn't it? That we're all so different.
But for me, it starts with just one little spark.
It could be a plot idea or, or asingle scene or even a, a
character flaw. And then I start to think about
that tiny little seed. So, you know, if it's a person
(07:13):
or a, or a scene, and then it just builds and builds.
And I go for my, you know, plot walks, which we, we talked about
in the last episode, didn't we? I, I love that.
And, and you know, I just take the dog out and I have a little
think and I think, well, what, what would they say to each
other? What would they do to each
other? Sometimes I start with the
(07:34):
crime, you know, I, I think of all of the different crimes that
I've done. So when you're, when you're on
#14 you know, obviously it gets harder to be original.
And so I might start with, oh, well, that would, I haven't done
that one before. I haven't done that idea before.
So then I, you know, I, I start then to build characters around
(07:57):
it. The, the setting is already
there for me because obviously my books are all set in the Lake
District. And, and then I could think,
well, where haven't I sort of concentrated on before?
So #13 for example, is set around this tiny little lake
called Rydal Water. And it's absolutely stunning.
(08:19):
I'll, I'll, I'll put some pictures on, on our, on our
social media because it is, it'sabout, I think it's about 3
miles long and about, oh, about,no, about two miles long and
about 300 metres across. So it's, it's tiny and it's so,
so pretty. Lots of beautiful walks around
there. And so I just started with that
(08:41):
this time. And so I, I love, I love that
the first page isn't always the beginning.
And actually, you know, the, theenergy for a story can start in
so many different places. And I, and I, I try not to think
of me sat there facing a blank page and thinking I need to
(09:06):
write 100,000 words. I mean, that's the worst thing
that I could, I could possibly do that anybody could do.
So my daughter is in her second year at university at the moment
and she is writing a thesis, which is 4000 words, you know,
And I, I, I write that in a couple of hours.
So it's, you can't think of it as, as a, you know, as a write,
(09:29):
I'm going to sit down and write a book.
And I think when you're startingout in this industry, I think
that's what puts a lot of peopleoff is all.
I can't write a full, full length book.
It's just too much. It's too long.
I can't see it all. There isn't a vision.
But if you start with just one little idea and then build on it
(09:49):
and then the words just build upone page at a time.
I can't remember who said it, but then there's a, there's a
quote which said, which says youcan't edit a blank page.
And so you've just, you know, got to just get cracking and
then you can always edit later. But the word words build up.
So if I write, you know, 2 to 4000 words a day, it builds up
(10:13):
and it builds up. You look at your little word
count every time you finish for the day.
Then you feel a bit more confident and you get, you know,
there are milestones, there are like chunks.
So you know, 2 chapters, 10 chapters, halfway 3/4 Nearly
there. Yeah.
And so that's, that's the way that I sort of break it down.
(10:34):
And I and I, I just want to tellshare this quote with you about
getting started and just taking it one page at a time from Joe
Girard, who was a a salesman andmotivational speaker from the
US. And he actually only died
recently. He was born in 1928, but he died
in 2019. I love this and said the
(10:55):
elevator to success is out of order.
You'll have to use the stairs one step at a time.
I love that. That's perfect, isn't it?
Because it is just one step at atime, 1 foot in front of the
other. Yeah, there's no way around
that. So I guess once the once your
words are starting to form, doesit just like spew out and you
(11:19):
just like this on the on the computer, right?
Typing really fast. I.
Mean that's a question without notice.
Some, you know, some days it doesn't, some days it doesn't.
And and my, my husband's knows what stage I'm at because by my,
my, the, the loudness of my sizeand, and how fast I'm typing.
So we share an office. It was supposed to be my office
(11:41):
and then COVID hit and so you know, yeah, yeah, he's he's in
here a lot now, which is quite irritating.
He's very loud on meetings. But so he has people say to him
on meetings and he's got he's got proper like sound cancelling
headphones on. What's that noise?
(12:02):
Sounds like a machine gun and it's me typing.
It's like so smoke's. Coming off the keyboard.
So that's on a good day. But then it goes all quiet and
he pokes his head up above the computer.
He said, are you all right? I'm like, yeah, we need to go
(12:22):
for a plot walk. So it, you know, it comes and
goes. And when, when you're in the
zone and, and, and, and my, my fingers are like a machine gun,
obviously very loud. That's great.
And it feels brilliant. But then you get a dip.
And, and I think that's what writer's block is.
Writer's block is you just sort of dry up and you, you start to
doubt yourself. Oh my God, you know, And so, so,
(12:44):
so if I'm having a dip, Michael,say, are you on chapter 15?
So used to it. So obviously about chapter 15,
you know, I'm having a bit of a dip.
I'm trying, I'm starting to question the whole premise.
And so yeah, it's definitely go.It definitely goes in stages.
(13:05):
Yeah, it's so fascinating. I'm absolutely loving this
discussion, but I have to ask, how on earth do you plan out
something as big as 100,000 words over 60 chapters?
Like I know Deep Fear that we talked about in last episode is
66 chapters plus an epilogue. That's a lot of story.
Is it all structured or do you go more on gut instinct?
(13:26):
Tell us how that works. So my agent's favourite phrase
is, and it's actually on his website for his agency, and I
love the name of his agency. It's called the Ampersand
agency, which is just so cute that that symbol is just lovely,
isn't it? And I actually found a Christmas
decoration, sparkly silver Christmas decoration in the
shape of an ampersand that goes on my tree.
(13:48):
But his. So on his website he's got his
favourite phrase, which is instinct over intellect.
And when we first met, he took me to lunch at the BAFTA in
London and we got chatting aboutwhat I was doing at the moment
because he loved my first book. And so, you know, we met to talk
about him becoming my agent and I told him about all my notes
(14:10):
that I was making and things like that.
And he said, can you do me a favour?
And I said, I said, well, you know what, yes, I'll do
anything. He said, can you just put your
notes away and just see what happens for this next one?
And I was like, oh, OK. And so I actually that book
(14:31):
where he said, put your notes away, see what happens?
That was dark game. And we ended up abandoning,
Yeah, we ended up abandoning theone that I'd already written
that caught his attention. And dart game was that one that
I went home from the lunch at the BAFTA and sat there and I
just didn't use notes and I justhad it in my head and I just
(14:52):
went with instinct and, and actually, that's, that's what
I've done since. Now, I'm not saying I don't use
notes because, you know, I, I need, you can't, you can't write
100,000 words and make them makesense over 66 chapters with an
epilogue without notes, of course.
But I don't have massive, you know, planned out charts or, you
(15:16):
know, PowerPoint presentations or anything like that.
I don't, I honestly don't know where I'm going when I start.
So when I started Deep Fear, forexample, which was our last
episode, wasn't it? And I, I, I kind of started with
the, the vigilante serial killerpremise, but I, I definitely did
not know how it was going to weave in and out and all the
(15:38):
plot twists and everything. So that is, yeah.
So in the business, we we say you're either a planner or a
pantser. So yeah.
So planners plan everything out meticulously.
Then they start writing pantsers.
We start by the seat of our pants, we fly by the seats of
seats of our pants, and we just go with instinct and we just
start writing and see where it goes.
(15:59):
And there are drawbacks and benefits for each.
Because if you're, you probably come out with a much tighter
first manuscript, first draught,and probably need to do less
work in a tutorial. If you're a pantser, you
probably come out with a messierfirst draught and then you need
to do a little bit more editing.But I prefer it that way because
(16:20):
I love editing. OK, so you'll write it, then
edit it, and then it will be submitted to your publisher.
Yeah, so as as I've got further into the Kelly series, I've
become a better editor and it really sort of switches on my
teacher brain. So it's it's like marking your
own work. So I will do the first draught
(16:43):
by instinct. And I call that just my blur.
I just, you know, it's literallyjust vomiting it onto the page,
right? I've got to get this done.
So opening my computer, it's like when they say the, the,
the, the heaviest weight in the gym is the front door or the
heavier weight for a writer is, is actually the lid of your
laptop. If you can get that open and and
(17:07):
get your fingers working, then it something will always come.
And personally, I believe that writer's block is the inability
to open that laptop and actuallysit down.
It's to do with fear and imposter syndrome and stuff that
we're going to talk about in this podcast.
Yeah. So once you get cracking.
(17:28):
OK, so in the back of my mind now I'm a lot more confident
than I used to be as a writer. I'm thinking, well, OK, that
that might sound pretty shit actually, but do you know what?
I'm getting my points across. And then when I finish my
manuscript, I can go back and finish it.
Yeah. And I think in one of our very
first episodes, you said you putit into your Kindle and then you
(17:49):
listen back to it. And just as a, as a from a
reader's point of view, not fromyour.
Yeah. It's so fascinating, Rach, this
is really interesting, just sortof finding out what the process
is and and how you go about it from, from a fan that's been
reading your books for ages now.It's really, really interesting.
(18:09):
Thanks so much for sharing this with us because it's so personal
as well. It's it's, it's something that
you don't really get to talk about very often because.
I find it really fascinating. It's a very isolated profession
and actually it's lovely to talkabout it because people just see
the finished product on a shelf or on Amazon, Audible or
(18:31):
wherever it may be. And actually there's probably
two or three years work and behind the scenes for that
gorgeous cover. And so to talk about it is
actually a real pleasure for me.No, it's so good.
Let's talk about your writing process and what's that like?
Where do you write and what tools do you use?
Like you must have lots of resources.
(18:53):
Yeah, and and like that organised chaos as well.
It's so nice to have an office. So just before COVID, I was, I
was lucky enough to, so the, theKelly novels were doing really
well. And, and I made the decision to,
to treat myself as a, as a, as apat on the back for me to an
office in the garden. And, and we used a company here
(19:16):
in the UK that that's, that was,you know, did these things,
their bread and butter. And I, I, I love it.
I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's just that space for me to,
to leave the house and, and haveall of my professional stuff in
a different space. I absolutely love it.
And ironically, then COVID hit and everybody wanted one and we,
we'd got our order in 1st. So, yeah, ours was built in, I
(19:41):
think it was the October of 20. So COVID, you know, was, was
really at its height and, and but they were allowed to come
and do this in the garden because we got our order in and
then their wait time was a year.Wow.
Yeah, yeah. So that's my environment out in
my my office, which faces the garden.
(20:02):
So it's so peaceful out here. And and I've got a huge desk.
And I've just got all of my favourite things.
So I've got a massive thesaurus here, which actually the front
cover came off a couple of weeksago.
That's that's how you know how much I use it.
I love my thesaurus. I've actually just bought myself
(20:24):
a brand new keyboard because I wore the yeah, I wore the tops
off some keys of my lap one. It lasted about seven months.
All that machine gun typing. Machine gun typing Machine gun
rage. Not Machine Gun Kelly.
Oh Machine Gun Kelly. Oh my.
(20:48):
God, that reminds me, that's something we haven't talked
about on the podcast. We've got to get our Spotify
playlist happening. So.
Yeah, we absolutely have to do that though listeners and we
want input from our fans too to,you know, give us song
suggestions so we can because we've got that capacity with the
Spotify so. I'm about to add that, but on on
(21:10):
that though, that is another post it note that will now go up
on my on my notice board, you know.
Machine Gun Kelly. Machine Gun Kelly and Spotify
playlist. So I've got a notice board here
and I've got, I always have handy my, my working document,
which is all of the books. So we've started a character
(21:33):
list, haven't we? And I've started a location list
as well, because what I really want to do is a map of the Lake
District with all of the locations on.
So I've got that next to me as well.
I've got loads of notebooks and I just, it's, it's my happy
place, you know, I just feel comfortable here and I've got
everything to hand. I've got my map behind me on my,
(21:55):
on my wall of the Lake District,so I can just scoot over in my
chair and have a look at what's around Rydal Water, for example,
and build that in. And so, yeah, it's, and again,
you know, I emphasise that, thateverybody's different, everyone
has a different order, but I just feel as though that helps
me get into the zone. I'm surround, I'm in my, I'm in
(22:16):
my favourite place. I'm surrounded by all of my, my
familiar things. And I might have a few copies of
my books around because I might need to them just to check
something. I've got a speaker as well
because I, I love, you know, putting on some chill music.
We'll talk about that. We'll talk about the, the
(22:37):
playlist as well because that is, that is so important to me.
So yeah, coming out here, getting in the zone, and then
the most important thing I thinkis believing that you can get to
the end of those 100,000 words because you've done it before.
The first one obviously is terrifying because you've never
done it before. How do you even think about that
(22:59):
many words and make sense? Because I always say that the
editorial process is like taking100,000 jigsaw pieces and
throwing them up in the air and then watching them land.
I know what every single piece says.
That's how I see the editorial process.
(23:20):
It's wrong. Yeah, and it'd be hard not to.
It's so personal too. Like if somebody's going through
your your work with a big fat red pen.
Yeah, that hurts you that you get, you get used to that as, as
as you go along. And now I don't, you know, I
don't. I'm not precious about what
editors do. And at the end of the day, it's
my copyright. So I, even if somebody takes a
(23:42):
big red pen for my work, I don'thave to accept it.
And, you know, I'm very lucky tohave a fantastic editor.
And Louise Cullen, she's just incredible.
And actually, the other unique thing about about my
relationship with Canelo and, and, and its place in the
industry is that I've actually had Louise as my editor for my
(24:02):
whole career, which is so rare. So, so rare.
Yeah. So me and Louise have worked on
the Kelly books and for eight years now.
And that, that is, that is such a privilege.
And so, you know, she's, she's had a few breaks to have a few 2
babies. Yeah, yes, she's been on mat
leave for a few of them. So, yeah, she's been a real
(24:23):
constant, which is, which is brilliant.
So, and The thing is about Louise that we know each other
really well now. And, and, and actually, if she
says something, something needs cutting or this character needs
bringing forward or whatever, then I really trust her.
And I think publishing is about,is, is about relationships.
You know, your, your, your relationship with your agent,
(24:45):
your relationship with your, your publishing editor.
They are hugely significant relationships.
That is so fascinating. I love this background.
Rach, you've mentioned the ABC method before.
Can you break that down for us? Like, how does it keep a big
novel on track? So so I learned this when I was
(25:06):
a teacher. I was on a, a teacher training
course, which are great fun. And obviously, you know, for
professional development, it's, it's really important.
And I would, this changed my life that learning about this
and I use it for everything. And, and you know, you can, you
can apply it to absolutely anything.
So, so the A is basically what you have to do right now.
(25:30):
The B is what you need to do maybe in the next couple of
days. And then the C is what you need
to do over maybe the next month.You can kick it down the road
and, and, and applied to a book.It could be a piece of research,
for example, or I can't actuallywrite this chapter until I do
(25:51):
this research. So that plans your day for you
because that becomes an A, you know, on your list of things to
do that particular research. So I'm, I'm writing a novel at
the moment set in a Scottish castle.
And I've just, I've just actually learned about this this
(26:12):
thing called a ski and poop, which is it's, it's the, it's
the the place in the sock on a traditional Scottish dress where
where the Gilly, which is the hunting and fishing expert keeps
his dagger. Yeah, it's the things like that.
And so, so, so it an A on my A'son my, on my list of things to
(26:35):
do because obviously I've got 1000 things running through my
head. I've got to write this novel,
you know, where do you start? What chapter am I on?
So I, I think about what I've got to do today, what's in my
head today. And then I mark them A's, B's
and C's. So that piece of research will
be an A and then the B's would be, Oh, well, actually I don't
need to interview them until Tuesday or I don't need to do
(26:59):
like a, a character or a chapterreview until tomorrow.
So they'll be my B's and then myC's are, you know, the bigger
things like maybe having a meeting with an editor or
talking to that bookshop about going and doing an event, that
sort of thing. So really it's a, it's a tool to
organise your time. That's all it is.
Right, yeah, prioritising what'simportant, what do you need to
(27:22):
get done right now? Yeah, exactly.
That's all it is. It's so simple but effective.
The ABC's. Makes sense.
But you have your own version ofthis, don't you Christy?
Because you were saying that A is the big picture, B is the
internal structure, and C is thecharacter journey.
(27:42):
Where did you get that from? I've got up just off the
Internet. Oh wow.
Yeah, I read that. I read the ABC method.
I don't know, when I was doing some research or something, I
thought, what is that? So anyway, that's what that
popped up. So that's why I was interested
to figure out your spin on it. What mean to you, Rach?
(28:03):
That's really interesting because I think people have
taken the ABC obviously and they've they've applied it to
different jobs and, and applied to a particular book that that
makes sense. That's nice.
But but for me it's more about organisation prioritising jobs
which I found really helpful. Yeah, yeah, I'm a big list
(28:25):
writer. I've got notes everywhere, lists
everywhere, books everywhere with notes in them and stuff.
So yeah, it's, it's a tough, it's a full time job.
There is, yeah. Your books can get really pretty
dark and gritty and super intense.
How do you switch off from when you close the laptop?
(28:47):
So what do you do to get to decompress?
Do you you're an alcoholic? Do you drink a lot?
Or do you do lots of yoga and drink peppermint tea like me?
So how? What do you do to decompress?
Yeah, it's a really good question because I think it's so
important. And I think that we can all
forget to do that, can't we? You know, I was, I was talking
(29:10):
to my daughter only yesterday. She was feeling really
overwhelmed with, yeah, with some work that she had to do.
And she's, she felt really, really tired.
She'd been at the library. She started yawning and and I
was like, listen to your body, you know, go for a nap.
So I think my answer to that is whatever makes you feel nice.
And I have this thing which they're called glimmers.
(29:34):
And you, you can, you can look this up, you can Google it.
And, and a glimmer is so you, you have this feeling of joy.
And so it could be walking in the country and you see a bird
or whatever. And it just gives you this real
sort of hug of joy. And I think that looking for the
glimmers is, is, is what I do torelax.
(29:57):
So I, I think about what, you know, gives me pleasure.
And actually, I find yoga reallyquite boring.
It's not yoga. I don't do you know what I
actually yoga for me is counterproductive because
there's not a lot going on. So I start thinking.
Yeah, your mind starts racing. Yeah, exactly.
(30:19):
So, you know, I'm, I'm doing downward dog and I'm and I'm
thinking about, you know, defrosting a body to autopsy it.
It's not good. It's not.
That's not. What was that thing we had in
the last podcast with the eggs are gone dormant?
Horrific. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yoga is too. So horrific for me.
It's so, yeah, I need some. So not, not to criticise all the
(30:43):
yoga Zen out there, obviously it's a beautiful thing.
But personally I need, I need something a bit more sort of
full on. So I go to the gym.
I actually don't drink alcohol. Yeah, I used to drink.
I gave I gave up drinking booze about five years ago and.
That's the same as us. But yeah, I do love a good
(31:06):
mocktail. Oh yeah.
Let's talk about some music. My mood always dictates what I
listen to. For example, if it's Belinda
Carlisle 1980s, something to boparound, Kylie Minogue.
Or if I'm feeling like I just need to calm down a little bit,
I'll Chuck on some classical, which I love classical music.
What do you work to Rach? Yeah, I'm the same as you.
(31:26):
It's definitely me dependent. So I've been working out to 80s
music recently, which is just hilarious.
Like voyage, voyage, can remember that voyage, voyage and
you know, Starship, we built teaand sisters are doing it for
themselves. You know, the Eurythmics with
(31:47):
Franklin and all of that. Oh my God, I've been loving it.
So it all depends on my mood andwhen I work.
I've got this this, you know, big speaker by my desk, which I
turn down low so I can't have it, you know, blasting out, but
just like gentle in the background.
And I so I listen to a lot of classical piano and chill out
compilations. And just recently I've been
(32:09):
starting to listen, starting to listen to country where in the
background, which which is lovely.
It's just really gentle and I think it just makes me a bit
soporific. And how many days, how many
times can we get it in with Machine Gun Kelly?
Yes. It just sort of calms my nervous
(32:30):
system down and gets me in the zone and on, off I go.
And the machine gun? We're going to talk a little bit
more about the Lake District. It's such a big part of the
Kelly Porter series, and how often do you go there?
And we talked about this before,but do you go there to gather
inspiration or is it for location scouting?
What's the deal with that? Yeah, but it's a bit of both.
(32:52):
And I try, Yeah, I mean, I try to go as much as I can because
we live in Hertfordshire now, which is near Cambridge, kind of
in between London and Cambridge.So it's about 4 1/2 hours drive
to get up to the Lake District from where I am now.
So it's a bit of a. That's not far at all.
It's not far me planning. Yeah, sorry, I'm talking for an
(33:14):
Australian, aren't I? Yeah, just next door.
In fact, I'm just going to nip there now.
Yeah, you're talking to a British person, Christy.
That was for hours. But yeah, so I, I try and get
back there at least once or twice a year and.
And we are going in a week's time, actually, it's bank
(33:35):
holiday weekend here in the UK next week next all.
Right, so by the time this episode comes out, you would
have already been. But yeah, I'll, I will take
loads of, you know, pictures andevery time I go and I try and
take loads of, you know, really interesting pictures like
pathways and lakes and dock places and interesting places
(33:57):
that inspire stories. So, so yeah, absolutely.
Every time I go I get new inspiration.
It could be an abandoned stone shepherd's Hut, you know, along
a walk, or it could be the side of a lake.
It could be under a tree, just one view.
And that could inspire a character.
Could actually be on top of scarf help.
(34:18):
I can be over over eavesdroppingon somebody's conversation.
I'm thinking, yeah, that's an interesting character.
So, so absolutely. Will there be snow?
No, no, they're not that high. So interestingly, we went to the
French Alps a couple of years ago in summer and there's still
snow on Mont Blanc. And so Mont Blanc is about four.
(34:41):
Is it about 4000 metres? So Mont Blanc is about, yeah,
that's about 12,000 feet, isn't it?
So in the Lake District we're we're on 3000 feet.
So we're dinky. Yeah, I think, I think most
Mountaineers would call them little hillocks.
However, some very famous Mountaineers do love the Lake
District because technically they're they're really
(35:04):
interesting walks. So, so we're we're very proud,
we're very proud of them. We call them mountains.
They're. Beautiful.
And because it's coming into such a beautiful part of the
season and we follow lots of people on Instagram, on the
Killer Storyteller Podcast Instagram page, there's been all
of these wonderful, you know, people saying, oh, I'm going to
(35:25):
do this walk today. And it's only a six, you know, K
walk and it's all flat and, you know, let me take you along.
So I feel like I'm going along for the journey at the moment.
It looks so beautiful and all the bluebells are out.
Yes, yeah. And and with that, when you get
a good day in the late district with that blue sky, it's just it
just frames everything. It's stunning.
Yeah. So I'll get I'll get loads next
(35:47):
week. Hey, Rachel, can we talk about
your agent for a SEC? So I'm really keen to understand
what your, what does your agent do?
Because I have absolutely no clue.
And how did you connect with them?
Because in my mind, they're sortof sitting in a big office, you
know, you know, downtown with smoking a big fat cigar behind a
(36:08):
big desk. Is that how it really is in real
life? I'm sure, I'm sure that's what
it used to be. No, without a shadow, a doubt.
I'm thinking like, you know, some of the scenes.
Yeah, absolutely. And but, but, but nowadays, you
know, like like all industries, it's a lot of it's gone online
(36:28):
and you know, yeah, yeah. So and there's a lot more women,
a lot more female agents out there.
It used to be publishing used tobe quite a, a male orientated
space. That's changing now.
But yeah, there's, there's lots of, there's, there's lots of
information out there on what a good agent is because it's
obviously important, isn't it? I mean, it's like, you know,
(36:49):
they are the gatekeepers of the publishing world.
Finding one that you click with is really, really important.
But there's more to it than that.
And, and I mean, I, I feel very lucky that I found my agent
Pete. Peter Buckman has been working
in the industry since he was in his 20s and he's now in his 80s.
So he's got, you know, bags of experience.
(37:10):
And if, if I just sort of go into a few things about what a
good agent looks like, one of them his experience and, and
Peter's got, you know, bags of it.
So I trust him in that sense to have my back.
And really an agent is, is, is like a talent scout.
They're the ones who spot the talent and then sell the talent
(37:33):
to the publishers. So you probably hear a lot at
the moment about self-publishing, about indie
publishing, that sort of thing. And I have massive respect for
for those authors and, and it's,you know, there's lots of ways
you can do that now. But my personal preference, I, I
said to myself about 10 years ago now about 2015, that I was
(37:54):
going to write and then I was going to just keep on writing
and wait until I was agented because I just wanted that level
of protection. And that was just this my
personal choice. So what makes a good agent?
Well, they take, they take 15% of your earnings.
So they need to earn that. And a good agent negotiates the
(38:17):
deal and protects you from the publishing world, which can be
quite a brutal place to be in, You know, all that technical
language that's in their contracts and all of that.
You might miss something. People have missed TV rights
and, and, and, you know, film rights being signed away, that
sort of thing. You know, I'm, I'm not, I'm not,
I'm not, I'm not a contract maker.
(38:38):
I'm a writer. So you know that that's his job.
You know, they fight your corner.
A good agent should be accessible.
You know, they, they answer youremails, you know, they don't
view, you know, hanging. I mean, Peter, unless he's a
London Book week or, you know, he's away with his family,
he'll, he'll answer me within hours.
(39:00):
And he's always been like that, you know, So he's, he's
accessible, he's honest. He doesn't promise me the world.
If, if, if, if an agent says to you, oh, I can make you famous
or I can sell 100,000 bucks, youneed to run because, because
nobody that you know, Peters honest.
He's like, well, we'll, we'll see what happens.
(39:21):
What do you want to do? What do you, what do you want to
do next? And I'll say, well, I'm thinking
about maybe doing another Helen or maybe another Kelly or I've
got this idea for a stand alone.And he's like, well, what, what
makes you more most excited? And I'm saying, well, maybe the
next Kelly and he'll say, well, then that's what you should
write then and send it to me when you're ready.
And I'll tell you what you think.
He's completely open and honest with me.
(39:43):
And he's also my biggest advocate.
You know, he's, he's utterly passionate about my work.
Ironically, he's not a huge crime fan and I make him fringe
sometimes. Really.
I bet yeah can be pretty gruesome in some of the scenes.
Yeah, absolutely. And and so he's, it's all about
the writing. It's all about how the book
(40:03):
flows, how it reads, how it connects, how it makes you feel.
Because over the years, you know, I've learnt that writing
is not just about telling the story.
It's not just about being cleverwith the plot.
It's, you've got to have an emotional response in the reader
because they've, they've got to want to come back for more.
And he's got, he's got to have those business skills, which I'm
absolutely useless at. The biggest thing is that you've
(40:24):
got to click. So when he invited me, the
process is, is that you send your first 3 chapters off to two
agents to get their attention. The vast majority say no because
they're so busy. They get thousands and thousands
a week to, to go through. So you know, that process is
notoriously depressing. But what you do want is an
e-mail to pop into your box saying, oh, I loved your first 3
(40:47):
chapters. I'd like to read the whole
manuscript. And when that happens, it's
like, Oh my God. So he did that and then he
invited me for lunch in London. I went along to the BAFTA, which
was pretty cool because I've never been there before, and we
chatted and we just clicked instantly.
And that is so important becauseI hear horror stories all the
(41:09):
time about all sorts of things to do with the publishing world
and about people not getting on,about people being ignored,
about editors leaving. And then the next editor who
places them doesn't like the books.
They have to write a new one. And it's honestly, the stories
are terrifying. And so that that human
relationship, like my relationship with Louise, my
(41:31):
editor, are the, you know, the the kingpins of your career.
You've been so lucky and it's it's really wonderful to hear,
you know, you're still continuing to work with some of
the same people you started off with 10 years ago.
What's your publishers input like and how does that work and
how did you land your first deal?
So that was that was Peter. 'S job and, and so once you once
(41:55):
you get an agent, they then findyou the deal.
That's how they earn their money.
And and so when Peter came to meand said, you know, I've got
this editor, she is enthusiasticabout your work.
She wants to have a chat with you.
So I organised a chat with her and, and again we clicked and,
and, and we were, you know, we, we couldn't shut up about dart
(42:17):
game. She was so enthusiastic about
it. And so I signed with them and
she said, you know, if you've got any more.
And I said, well, actually we'vegot 3 ready.
And she said, OK, so the, the, my first contract contract was
for three and then they've rolled in threes from them.
And so, so that was back in 2017.
(42:37):
And again, Louise is a, she's champion of Kelly and my work
and she's seen her grow. So that's another, you know,
lovely thing about staying with the same editor.
And so basically I will write myfirst manuscript, my first
draught, then that I'll send that to Peter first of all.
And he'll tell me yay or nay. He'll say, Oh my, like, I don't
(42:58):
like that. Then I'll play around with it
for a bit. Then I'll send it to Louise and
then she'll say yay or nay and, and she'll say, actually this,
this is really tight already. We'll send it straight to copy,
edit, edit. And so that is like an external
editor who may or may not know me and my work.
(43:20):
A lot of them do, some of them don't.
And so that will be like plot holes, grammar, things that
maybe don't quite work, things that.
Yeah, things that you've missed,sentences that don't really make
sense. So it's really a very technical
part of the process and then really interesting.
Yeah. Yeah, and it goes through
(43:42):
several. Of those hoops until finally a
professional proofreader will just, you know, check the final
manuscript. And, and so it really is a
journey and it's a, it's a wholeteam, you know, be behind it
because everybody sees differentthings.
And, and you know, you, you justmentioned there that, you know,
I put my, one of my final draught through my Kindle.
(44:05):
So that draught that I put through my Kindle is actually
one of the later ones when it's been finessed already by editors
right myself. And So what I do is I put it
into my Kindle and then I sit and I read it with a reader's
head on. Yes.
And the difference it makes because I'm not, I'm not, I'm a
professional space. I'm not in my editing space.
(44:27):
I'm not in my teacher space. I'm not in my business space.
I'm just a reader and so I pick up different things and so I
then go back before the proofread and, and just, you
know, make tiny little changes then that I've picked up.
And it's a really, I find it a really helpful tool.
And then, yeah, then it goes to artwork.
(44:47):
It will, it'll have been to artwork a lot earlier than that
because as soon as you've got your story, you know the
flavour, then it goes to artwork.
And then the publicity team, sales and marketing team.
And then, yeah, you've got publication dates.
So that whole process probably takes, you know, a year, year
and a half. Wow, such a long process.
That's. Great.
(45:08):
What a fantastic insight we're getting from your age.
This is so fantastic in your opinion.
So what are some of the downsides to writing novels and
what is it that most people might not see?
What do you find really tough behind the scenes?
Yeah, it's, it's an interesting one because I think you.
Spend a lot of time dreaming about being a published author.
(45:30):
You know the stats are really terrifying.
You know the amount of people who send books in to agents, the
amount of rejections you get, the amount of people who
actually make a living from it. The amount of people you see on
the front shelf of a bookshop. Or getting a review in a really
high profile newspaper like here.
You know, the to get a review inThe Sun newspaper and the Daily
(45:53):
Mail, which I did for for the rich was, you know, it's huge.
And so you sit dreaming for a long time about writing.
But then when it happens and andyou become fortunate enough to
do this full time, and then thenyou realise that actually it's
an incredibly lonely profession because I'm sat here in my head
(46:15):
all day, which sometimes is not a very healthy thing to do for
any of us, right, Is it? Yeah, that's exactly right.
Yeah. So I.
Have to make sure that. I, I stop that isolation and I
break that isolation. So I go for a lot of coffees
with friends, I go for lots of dog walks and I try and look for
those glimmers, you know, those,those those deep joy moments to
(46:37):
to make me happy because I'm a crime writer.
So I not only spend my time on my own in my head, but I spend
my time on my own in my head killing people.
So, so, you know, it can be quite dark.
So the, you know, other, other things that I, I never expected
to, which surprised me was the worry, the anxiety that comes
(46:59):
with writing. Because you know, you have this
incredible moment where everybody's interested in you
and everybody celebrates you on publication day and you get
invited to places, interesting places.
You get invited to speak about your books, but then you start
to worry about, well, can I write another one?
(47:21):
Can I keep this going? So there's this constant anxiety
that follows you about, you know, your ideas.
Are they are they ideas going todry up?
Is the, is the fashion going to change?
Am I going to become irrelevant?Am I going to become dated?
So there's that as well. There's, there's also, you know,
a little sort of devil on your shoulder asking, you know, if
(47:44):
you're legitimate, are you good enough?
Because it's an art, isn't it? So like any art, like any
creative thing, it's very, very personal and very, very
subjective. So, you know, and we might go to
the National Portrait together, you know, you'd love 1 portrait
and I'd hate it and, and I'd love the other one and you'd
hate it. So that's what you're up
against. And, and some people can be
(48:05):
quite cruel. I don't, I don't actually read
reviews anymore because it doesn't really make any
difference. You know, I love it that I
you've got almost 13,000 reviewsfor Dark Game, but I don't I
don't read many of them because it's it can be quite upsetting
if somebody's criticised you personally for something that
(48:26):
you've written. And actually Dark Games got
nothing to do with me or very little to me.
You know, you've created this thing.
Yeah, it's like a pop star beingbeing criticised for a lyric,
but but personally attacked, youknow, it's this, it's this
personal attack, which is is difficult to deal with.
So that's that's hard. And then another thing which is
(48:49):
hard is, am I successful? You know what, what is success
is success. Money is success.
How many times I get invited to speak is success.
How many friends I have on Twitter is success.
The reviews I get is success, whether a huge name, likely
(49:10):
child has actually given me an endorsement is success
consistent royalties is, is success walking into a big
bookshop in Piccadilly in the centre of London and it and it
being on the front table, which actually I will add that
publishers pay for. So, you know, it's, it's an A
really interesting world and I think you've just got to do you,
(49:35):
you've just got to have that younever give up.
You know, that that self belief that actually successes to me is
the fact that I'm still enjoyingit.
Yeah. And if I sell books and I get
fans and they want me to to engage with them on social
media, then that is just the icing on the cake.
That is incredible. I mean, I got a message recently
(49:59):
from somebody, a woman in the UKwho said that she'd been
diagnosed with cancer and she was going into hospital with to
have her treatment and she'd taken the first of my five books
and it was getting her through her cancer treatment.
There is no better endorsement than that, is there?
And you get no money in the world or being invited onto
(50:22):
panels to talk about yourself. None of that compares to that.
I mean, that is just the best thing that it's so humbling, the
thought that that she was going through this thing and and, and
I provided her with some light relief.
Really lovely have to say. Working with you on the podcast
and starting the Instagram page and the Twitter, the X page, you
(50:45):
have the loveliest followers. They're so lovely and kind and
thoughtful and send beautiful messages and beautiful photos of
them with their books and reading the books and giving,
you know, reviews. You got a 10 out of 10 review
from Molly Molly's books. We're gonna use that in one of
our social posts. But you have the most loveliest
(51:07):
followers. And it's, it's such a delight to
be a part of that. That must make your heart feel
really full when you read those types of messages.
Yeah. And that that's, that's a
glimmer. You know that I was talking
about. Yeah, that's awesome.
Deep joy. You wake.
Up and somebody in, you know, Melbourne or somebody in Canada
(51:28):
or somebody in Scotland has sentyou a message like that.
Yeah, yeah. It's incredible, yeah.
You've just we've talked about. You've finished writing Kelly
13. We don't know the title of it
yet which is so exciting. Can't wait to read it, but I
want to know what it feels like when you've finally completed
(51:48):
that whole entire process that we've talked about.
You've submitted it to your agent, the publisher, We've
talked about the process just just now.
But what's that relief feel like?
And you've talked about what thetimeline is until it goes on the
store. But like, Oh my God, there's so
many questions, right? This podcast is going to be
another 4 hours long. We're doing like an.
(52:10):
Episode on each book. But then when we come to the
actual nitty gritty behind the writing, we write so much and
I'm so. Fascinated by what happens
behind the scenes I love that yeah.
But I guess what I'm trying to get to is what does it feel like
when you've you've passed it allon like Kelly 13's gone now
Yeah. It feels amazing and.
And it. Just, it just gets stored away
(52:32):
in my nervous system that I can still do it and that I've just
written another 100,000 words and that it's OK, everything's
going to be OK. I can still do this.
So that's nice. That's the, I think that's the
instant feeling. And then I have a few days off
and, and when I finished Kelly 13, which I can tell you is
going to be called false witness.
Oh wow. False witness?
(52:55):
Oh, you've heard it here first. That's exciting.
So when I finished that last week.
I went to Cambridge with my friend Jackie and it was a
beautiful day. It was gorgeous weather and we
chatted and we went in and out of shocked, we window shocked
and we had gorgeous lunch and itwas just so, so nice.
(53:15):
And, and so that is the sort of thing that I do to celebrate
such a special time. And then it's not, it's not too
much longer after that that I'd start thinking about the next
one. Yeah, I have to put a request in
you. Have to write a follow up to The
Rich. The Rich is my most favourite
book so far. I haven't read all of the books
(53:38):
yet. Brilliant.
One of the things that I get feedback on is that it doesn't
take people very, very long to read them, which is a compliment
to me. It's a double edged sword
because it's a compliment. Because thrillers need to be
thrilling, don't they? You don't want to put them
(53:59):
around. So that's good Tick.
I've done my job. But also then it's like, Oh my
Lord, write, OK, I need to writequicker because I generally
publish about two or three a year, and that's quite a lot for
the publishing industry. So it is.
Yeah. I'm constantly either writing
one, thinking about the next one, or editing the last one.
(54:19):
So it never, ever stops, which is great because everyone wants
to be busy. Yeah, of course you're super
busy. Oh God, I reckon we haven't even
scratched the surface on so manytopics, Rach.
There's so many discussions thatwe're going to talk about in
depth in other episodes like Autopsy, your in depth research,
(54:40):
marketing, promotion, how you get access to speak to
specialists and those experts, which I find really fascinating.
So many ideas, but I feel like this has been a really good
discussion. Such a great chat today and and
also I think I think. The other thing that's, that's,
that's come out of today in particular for me is, is the,
(55:04):
you know, the, the difference between the process and, and
then the actual craft. And, and we're going to do a
whole podcast on that. Aren't we like a, a sort of, you
know, my take on on what makes aa killer story?
It could be like a master class.We could even.
Yeah, that would be so good. I really.
(55:25):
Love this episode. It's such a great insight into
behind the scenes and how you write and how it all kind of
comes together. It's really interesting.
We hope you find it really interesting too.
So I think that's a wrap for this episode.
Isn't it Christy, and thanks so much for listening.
We've, we've loved this episode and like Christie said, I mean
(55:47):
that we could just go on about, you know, the background, what
goes on, what goes into a novel and how it, how it feels and
what, you know, what my days arelike.
We, we just hope that you've enjoyed it as much as as we
have. And, and next time we'll, we'll
be exploring #3 dead end. Can't wait for that.
One of my favourites is it, yeah.
(56:09):
So if you haven't read that yet that you've got some catching up
to do, or if you've read them all and you're going back, then
let us know. Let us know any questions you
might have that we can discuss on the podcast.
We'd love to hear from you. Absolutely.
I'm just about to. Jump back into dead end.
I have read it, but I want to, Ineed to reread it and make my
notes so we can have that for the next podcast.
(56:31):
But yeah, if you haven't read it, jump in now.
It's perfect time to crack it open.
And remember, you can listen to us on Spotify, YouTube.
We think this will be up on YouTube so you can watch us as
well. I don't think I'm going to edit
the YouTube 1 so people can see it warts and all.
YouTube Music and be sure to. Subscribe so you never miss an
(56:52):
episode. How did you feel this episode
went? I loved it.
Christy, I I absolutely. Love sharing, you know, all the
behind the scenes stuff and because it it just you know, it
just means that readers get to see what's behind the finished
product and and all the stuff that and all that so many people
and their input that goes into actually that book that you see
(57:14):
on the shelves. Alright, until next time, see
you. Later, bye.
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The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.