174. The Male Crisis of Connection

We meet with Ben Brown and discuss a growing challenge!

Episode Transcript

(00:10):
Look, I know that sounds harshand you need to hear the truth.
You're sitting there with aSupercuts haircut, you're
getting drunk on watered downvodka cranberries like a
14-year-old girl, and youwearing a 44 when you should be
wearing a 42 regular.
Honestly, I don't know if Ishould help you or I should
euthanize you.
Jesus.
Well, welcome to the KindnessChronicles, where we hope to

(00:33):
inject the world with a dose ofthe Minnesota nice that it
desperately needs.
Not sure exactly how that clipis gonna fit into today's show,
but I bet there's a plan.
Jeff Hoffman,, has been, uh,promoted to senior engineer.
Wow.
Yeah.
He has equipped our,, studio forYouTube.
He's got.
Lights and cameras and, what doyou call those screens a

(00:56):
monitor, monitors.
He's, it's just, it's shocking.
And someday we'll be able to,to, to see this with everybody.
Steve Brown is here.
Hello, Steve.
Hi.
Hi.
Steve has brought the handsome,younger version of himself.
Yes.
His son, Ben, is with us todaybecause we're gonna be
addressing a topic that isrelated to his people.
Yep.
His generation of folks.

(01:17):
Yeah., Specifically men, youngboys, specifically young men.
Kevin Gorg has a hockey gametonight.
Yeah.
Surprise.
And I just wanna start byapologizing.
Here we go.
So last week, buckle up.
Buckle up everybody.
Last week we did an experiment.
The idea was, let's see if wecan talk about politics without

(01:40):
it getting divisive and wefailed.
It's, I don't think that it'spossible.
I sincerely.
So here's what happened.
Let me fill you in on what?
Yeah.
Tell us about what happened tothe, for our listeners.
So I got a call about two hoursafter the, the, the show was
posted from my son, Jack.
Mm-hmm.
And Jack called me up and hegoes, Hey, I listen to your

(02:01):
podcast, which I thought wasnice.
Yeah.
Your kids are listening.
Kids are listening.
Looking out for dad.
It's better than me.
And check.
Ben, we're gonna get to you injust a moment.
You keep it down over there.
We didn't bring you in the roomyet.
You heard the saying Speak whenspoken to.
That's what happens here.
This is the pattern part.
We, it is an apology actually.
Yeah, it's very important rightnow.
This is an important apology.
Get to it.
Yeah.
So anyways, he called and hesaid, Hey, you know, I

(02:24):
understand what you were tryingto do there, but.
You made some comments that Ijust don't think were consistent
with what you're trying to dowith the podcast.
And I said, specifically what?
And he, he said, you know, as itrelated to the transgender
matter, careful.
I'm being very careful.

(02:45):
Yeah, yeah.
If you were one of the first 143people to download the, the
podcast, you probably heard thecomment.
If you were after that, I tookthat episode down, edited it
out, and then reposted it.
Mm-hmm.
And essentially what he saidwas, while your comment may have
been factual as a biologicalmatter, it was completely

(03:08):
unnecessary as it relates to thepoint that you're trying to get
across.
Okay?
And he said, dad, you've alwaystalked to us about, it's
important to make sure that youare protecting your brand.
And what I mean by that is,you're judged by the company you
keep.
If you hang around withjackasses, people might think
that you're a jackass.

(03:28):
True If you true, yes.
You know, all those things hesaid.
I don't think this is consistentwith the brand of the Kindness
Chronicle, so Wow.
I appreciate my son, Jack.
Listen, that's good.
Kind C criticism.
Yeah, it was kind critic,constructive criticism.
That's what kindness is, man.
Absolutely.
Thank you, Jack.
Appreciate it.
Yeah.
Feedback is a gift.
It is.
And we did, we did learn and we,we were walking into that a

(03:50):
little bit, you know, nervousabout or you know, thinking
about it, but it comes down toit.
Politics are not kind.
No, and, and it's really not ourbusiness and not for us to have
an opinion.
We could talk about politics,but not once we start getting
into opinions about politics.
It, that's not what we're herefor.
No.
'cause we could go on becausethen we're just another, yeah.

(04:10):
Another bunch of dudes complain.
There's ton of shows that arebetter than we could ever be at
that.
Yes.
So why not on, that's not whatwe're to do.
That's not our, that's not ourlane.
That's stay in your lane.
I think it was important too.
For our listeners to recognizethat Mike Newcomb was a former
guest.
He's a guy that we know, and itwas just an interesting.
What he's doing is interestingas a, as a candidate.
So if you quit listening as aresult of that faux paw, we're

(04:31):
back.
Well, you're probably notlistening right now, so I'm,
I'm, you're relying on word ofmouth to say, Hey, hey.
Could tell your friends.
I'm sorry.
Now, Mike Newcomb, flip side ofthis is I did get some good
feedback about the message thatMike Newcomb is trying to put
out there, into the world.
And, uh, again, I, it'll beinteresting to see how he is
able to.

(04:51):
Navigate the nasty world ofpolitics.
Mm-hmm.
Without becoming divisive.
Yeah.
So good luck to you, Mike.
uh, Scott Mitchell.
Remember, you know Scotty?
I know Scott very well.
Scott.
I like that guy.
Scott.
Yeah.
Ran into Scott at the, uh,what'd he say?
Golf course?
No, he just says that he, youknow, appreciates and he said,
you know, Mike Newcomb is agreat guy.
He known Newcomb from, fromcollege.

(05:11):
There's a little buzz among.
That group of people that, thismight be the time for somebody
that's not political,politically connected to a
party.
Yeah.
So to speak.
Yeah.
That's his, that's his wholebit.
That's great.
Yeah.
Item number two.
Yeah.
Okay.
Before we get to the big, themain topic, I wanted to, did you
guys watch any of the WorldSeries?
I know you didn't, Steve.

(05:32):
No.
This is funny.
I, I didn't really know what wasgoing on and then, uh, I, I came
across it.
I was at, uh, the brick house.
Right.
Oh, I kinda forgot the WorldSeries was going on.
What, how, and, and I was atgames watching Game seven,
looking up going, oh.
Is this, the last game is thisbaseball.
We left before the reallyamazing game.
You know, what is the Blue JaysWere ahead.

(05:53):
When I, when I, we left the bardidn't work out, so I heard it
was amazing.
But I, I'm happy that youaccidentally witnessed part of
the Best World Series, probablysince the 91 1 Twins World
Series.
Ben, do you follow sports atall?
I don't really, but my friendsare, he doesn't even wanna watch
the Vikings with me.
I, I want him to get, come downto watch the Vikings know.
That's the thing that I, my sonis supposed to do with, with his

(06:13):
dad.
Dad.
It is.
And I love the energy offootball.
Like, I love the vibe offootball.
You know what also I've done.
See, that's like me.
We, we like voice.
Its entertainment.
Nice.
Comforting.
He's got a great voice.
She had a great voice.
Thank you.
Great hair, great voice.
Yeah.
We're not, we're not startingwith him.
Yo.
Okay.
We're not.
Okay.
What were you gonna say aboutthe world?
Wanna talk about the WorldSeries?
There is a story that, uh, well,first and foremost.

(06:34):
I love the fact that Shhe Otaniand that picture Yamamoto are
such gentlemen.
And what teams were playingJohn?
The Dodgers of Los Angeles andthe Blue Jays of Toronto.
Toronto, yes.
Toronto.
Sorry.
Toronto.
Toronto, yeah.
the Dodgers won.
And the Dodgers have a payrollunlike any payroll anywhere else

(06:56):
in Major League baseball.
But they really do seem like alot of very likable guys.
Freddie Freeman, the firstbaseman, seems like a great guy.
Mookie Bets, uh, Muncy, thethird baseman,, Clayton Kershaw,
he's retiring after this year,and he'll be a hall of famer
first battle kind of.
But what I was most impressedwith is they would have these

(07:18):
shots of Yamamoto after a gamecleaning up the dugout.
Mm-hmm.
And Shhe Tani filling up cups ofwater for his teammates and
handing them out to histeammates.
There is something about thatJapanese culture that is so
respectful.
I just love it.
It ties in with kindness.
And my wife, you know, whospeaks Japanese and lived in

(07:40):
Japan for, uh, for a while.
Really?
Oh yeah.
I didn't know that.
Oh yeah.
It's so much fun when you go tolike a Japanese restaurant
That's so cool.
Impress.
And this little cracker, soimpressive starts talking is so,
you know, they look at her like,whoa, what was that?
So like, when you go to, uh,what's the place in White Bear?
The, the, Susie?
Uh oh.
Sam's Pat Tai.
Different.
No, no.
Not that.
This Leanne Gins that isChinese.

(08:04):
You know what that is?
Racism.
I just trying to think about, Iforget it.
Wonderful.
Asian food that I like, right?
Yeah.
Anyway, I do like that place.
It is fun though when, whenwe're at these restaurants and
Becky all of a sudden will,yeah.
Say something in Japanese.
They'll look at her like, whatis that?
I know the shock.
I've seen videos with peoplegoing through drive-throughs and
they're like in shock.

(08:25):
Oh, it's the greatest.
Oh, it's, it's the greatest.
It's funny to see the reaction.
Okay, so back to the WorldSeries.
So back to the World Series.
I was just so impressed withjust so don't, here's my just a
little side.
Don't they have like a peoplethat do that?
The wall?
They probably do, but his Thepoint is, the point is, yeah.
It's sort of the whole Masonicmeeting on the level, whether
you're the, the guy making$700million or the guy that's

(08:45):
cleaning up after everybody.
Yeah.
You know what, we're all peopleand we should all contribute..
Okay.
And then there's something mostabout the World Series.
I sent you an an article.
An article about it, but you,you should talk through.
'cause I didn't watch the game.
I just, I just thought that wasreally, you probably don't even
understand what the.
Put what the characters are.
So there's a picture.
Why would I send it to you ifthere's a relief pitcher?
So in a baseball game.

(09:05):
There is, uh, you know, startingpitchers.
Those are the guys that are onthe mound early in the game.
Yeah.
And those relievers.
Yeah.
And then there's the closer whotypically is out there.
Last, and I can tell you JeffRearden in 87 was our closer as
well as Juan Behringer.
Remember Juan Baringer?
Yeah.
Yes.
The Baringer Boogie.
Remember that?
That's right.
So.
That's very good.

(09:26):
Where's KG when we need it?
I know.
We need, we need this anyway.
You shouldn't have me be No.
The point being the sports guy,right?
No, there was, um, one of theplayers for the, Dodgers had
gotten struck out by one of the,the pitchers from the Blue Jays,
and he was looking up at the bigscreen to see, the replay of him
striking out.
And he noticed that the pitcherfor the Blue Jays had a 51.

(09:49):
Written on his hat.
Yeah.
And he started noticing that allof these players had a 51
written on their hat.
Well, it just so happens thatthe Dodgers have have a relief
picture who was dealing withsome significant, uh, personal
matters, and they really didn'tget into what they were.
But the Dodgers players had put51 on their hats and the Blue

(10:11):
Jays guys, without beingprompted by anybody, decided,
you know what?
Just to show our solidarity, toshow our support of this person.
We're gonna put 51 on our hats.
I think I just, it just gives megoosebumps.
Yeah, that seems so opposite ofwhat a team would, they were
like us versus them.
Why we compare, why are weconnecting with them?
Like why would we do anything?

(10:31):
That's pretty cool.
It's so cool.
That's, it reminds me of whatsports, sorry, I didn't mean to
cut you off.
No, I was gonna say I love theseexamples too because it does
show, sports are, are such aninteresting example of how to.
Help people help you can helpexpress kindness and
sportsmanship in a, how you canexpress sportsmanship.
Yeah.
And kindness.
Yeah.
It's pretty, pretty cool.
Remember that gal we had forthe, um, lupus, uh, yeah.

(10:55):
Spiel or whatever it was for thecurling spiel?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And KG said, um, I love going toCanada, specifically the kooks,
and they have this big.
Banner called we're all Kooksand I, it's because of the way
they get treated up there and itthat reminded me of that when
you shared that article is we'reall kooks and here they were.
P homage.

(11:16):
Is that the right way to say hoHomage?
I like to say it homage, but youknow, I know Potato threw that
one up, but uh, yeah.
Thank you for taking off yourglasses.
By the way, John had does somesunglasses on So Bright.
If you look like Bon here, youlook like Bono in the early two
thousands.
Pretty pretentious looking overthere.
Exactly.
I don't know what he wasthinking.
I like to see your eyes so I cantell if you're like.
Lying, giving me the, I'mprobably lying.

(11:36):
Like, stop, Tom, stop talkingthe chance.
If the chances are that I'mspeaking, I'm probably lying.
Alright.
But, I just was really moved bythat.
It was very cool.
Well, and then the last story inthat article was the relief
picture and Jeff Hoffman.
What, wait a second.
Y you're not moonlighting as aprofessional baseball player.

(11:56):
Well, unfortunately, he spellshis last name incorrectly.
He uses one N on Hoffman's.
That how, and I use two Ns.
That's the correct way to spell.
You could always use that spare.
Okay.
Right.
Is that it?
Well finish the story about JeffHoffman.
What I, what I read about thatwas that, uh, he, um, lost.
Unfortunately, the, he, he got,that's right.
He gave up the, the, the, thebig home run and, and sort of

(12:19):
took the blame and said, I, Ilost it for my team.
I feel terrible.
Yeah.
And they were on, they were atgun game seven, right?
Yep.
And it sounds like they startedat bottom very dramatic at the
beginning of the Yep.
They were the whole season andthey.
Climbed up.
Yes.
And it must've been a brief,they were last place, last year.
Kind of reminds me of Moneyballin that whole story with the
Oakland A's.
I always try to tie it back to amovie, but, or Major league.
You watch too much tv.

(12:40):
Um, anyway, the, he was justdown and felt terrible about and
said, I lo I lost it for myteam.
And another, a team member Iunderstand, came and hugged him,
said Glad Guerrero.
And said, I will take a bulletfor this guy.
Yeah.
Like there was a good, prettycool.
Yeah.
So.
Here's a little twist.
Drama, drama.
Here's a, for you.
There was a study that wasrecently conducted worldwide
study.

(13:00):
If you could move to anothercountry, what country would you
move to?
I want you to try and guess whatthe top three answers were.
Go ahead.
Can I guess?
Yeah.
I would say Canada.
Number one.
Look at you, Ireland.
That wasn't in the top three.
Oh.
Um, but Canada was number one.
Yeah.
Was Sweden.
Sweden was not.
Hmm.
This could take forever.

(13:21):
So I'm just gonna tell youthere's 187 some countries, so
we don't wanna sit here all daydoing this Argentina number, not
Argentina.
Number two was Australia.
Ooh.
And number three.
That's a continent, by the way.
But day it, but it's also acountry.
Is it?
Okay.
See, I School, it's a big rock.
It's Forest Lake.
I know.
That said Forest Lake education.

(13:42):
You'll be okay.
And then, uh, what was the thirdone?
And number three was, I forgotwhat number three was.
Japan.
Oh, okay.
Number three was Japan.
I can see that.
So I just thought that that wasvery interesting.
We were just talking about Japanlast night.
Really?
Yeah.
You and Ben.
Yeah.
Well, what about, well, it'sjust, it's, you'd be tall there.
We would be, yeah, probably thebrown.
The brown guys are tall inJapan.

(14:05):
Uh, no, it's, it's aninteresting culture there
because they are very strict onlike, moving to Japan.
So they are very selective.
Oh.
They have an immigration policy.
Very strict immigration.
Interesting.
Yeah.
You can visit What a uniqueidea.
Oh, there I go.
Politics.
Can't do it.
Why don't we bring in Ben totalk about this here.
So let's bring a new subject.

(14:25):
Let's, uh, let's switch gears.
Yeah.
Um, I was, uh, watching theToday Show.
Surprise.
Like I never do that everysingle morning.
My wife said, there is a, a, asegment that you really need to
check out.
And the name of the guy is ScottGalloway.
Scott Galloway and ScottGalloway is recently written a

(14:46):
book, I can't think of what thename of the book is, think it
was Notes to Men or Notes toBoys.
And it's essentially discussingThe challenge is almost a crisis
that young men are experiencingright now, not just in the
United States, but worldwide,but in the United States
specifically.
he was just talking about thefact that there is a, a, a
crisis of, connection amongyoung men.

(15:09):
something like 15% of thepeople, uh, between the ages of
18 and 25, something like that,don't have a single close
friend?
Yeah.
And they were talking about theI increase in Google searches
Yes.
For things like.
How to make a friend.
How to make a friend.
What do I do when I'm lonely?
Yeah.
And it's just sad.
Hey, I companion.

(15:30):
Yeah.
And then, uh, they talkspecifically about dating.
Mm-hmm.
And the fact that something like40% of men in that age group
have never asked a woman out.
Yeah.
in person, people are relying onthese apps to connect with
people.
Said something like, since CO40% of the bars have shut down.

(15:51):
And while some people might lookat that as going, oh,, from an
alcoholism perspective, maybethat's working out for.
The society socially.
It's a disaster.
Yeah.
Socially it's been a disaster.
The guy's book is, is ScottGalloway's book is called Notes
on Being a Man, modernMasculinity.
That's fantastic.
That's the name.
He's an academic, he's been on,you've seen him on everything.
Yeah.
Um, he's got strong opinions onall kinds of things, but this is

(16:14):
his kind of academic, uh, and Ithink he's an NYU professor for
econ or so.
Yes.
He's written a lot about thiskind of subject and a lot of,
he's thrown up the warning flagsabout our society and where
we're kind of headed and what,what.
Statistics he's showing arereally, uh, kind of truthful and
not a surprise, the impact thatsocial media has had on.
You know, the, the, thisdownturn in our social capital,

(16:38):
the way that we connect withpeople, we've talked about this
in the past.
Yeah.
With that, uh, that book,bowling Alone.
Yes.
Um, and just that people ties invery much with this, but the
fact that, you know, peoplearen't going to church as much.
Although my church was packed onSunday.
I was super impressed.
I, I feel like people aregetting back to church.

(17:00):
You know, the church thing, uh,people aren't going into work.
You know, they're workingremotely.
Yep, yep.
Um, you're sequestered, you'remissing out.
You're not joining things,you're not joining the Lion's
Club or the Rotary.
You don't have to, as far as youcan create a digital experience
for yourself just staying inyour house.
That's what these kids, I think,are doing, and it's just easier
for'em.
And so they're not pushingthemself.

(17:21):
So why so why are we bringingthis up?
Well, we're bringing it up.
One is because what's our,what's our, Ben is here with us.
Yeah.
Hello.
Ben is here.
And I, you know, I really wantto get to the bottom of what is
wrong with your people.
What he's responsible ishappening for, he has all the
answers with your generation.
No, in all sincerity.
Um, one of the, the, the, thethings that they talked about is

(17:42):
when a woman, women arefrustrated by this too.
Mm-hmm.
They're not, you know, thetraditional getting asked out
isn't happening like it used to.
Yeah.
And they don't have the skillsanymore and the social skills
aren't there.
And what they said was the mostattractive thing in a man, this
same study that was done, themost attractive thing in a young

(18:02):
man is kindness and a sense ofhumor.
Mm-hmm.
So make'em laugh and be nice tohim.
I think kind to it.
I think learning how to make aliving too was probably up there
making a living.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, but, but they evensaid that, that that isn't as
secondary critical.
Hmm.
As just the whole kindnessthing.
So I feel like it has somethingto do with what we're talking

(18:24):
about.
Yeah.
It doesn't, I'm just, I'm justkinda helping shape it.
But yeah, this is a, a starkwarning and.
We don't have the answers here,but at least let's, let's talk
to Ben.
Talk to a young person.
20 year, 21-year-old man fromthis generation and, uh, so Ben
Ben.
Welcome, welcome, welcome,welcome to Kindest Chronicles
Ben.
Boy, thank you guys for havingme.
Tell us a little bit about whatBen does.

(18:46):
Ben, you are a tree hugger, as Iunderstand it.
I'm hugger.
Okay.
What, what does tree huggingmean these days?
Well, it means for me, it meansgoing out and doing something
about the, the kind of crisisthat we're in with our
environment.
So, can we do that withoutgetting political?

(19:06):
Yes.
Okay, fantastic.
Yes.
Um, because there are nuts onboth sides of that equation, but
we're not gonna talk about that,right Ben?
I like where you're at, Ben.
You're a guy that's decided I'mnot gonna get engaged in the
silliness.
I'm gonna go out there and I'mgonna do what I can.
To improve the environment thatI'm living in.
Exactly.
How are you doing that?

(19:27):
Um, by joining, uh, volunteeropportunities.
Like what?
To AmeriCorps.
Oh, like the Conservation Corps?
Yeah.
Uh, we have a MinnesotaConservation Corps here.
Okay.
Minnesota and Iowa.
They're combined.
Cool.
Um, but they're all over thestates.
Um, and AmeriCorps, as its ownthing is a very wide spanning

(19:48):
organization.
They have stuff in business andthey have stuff.
Obviously in the outdoors withthe conservation core.
I only know about theconservation core stuff.
Um, which is what, tell, tell'ema little bit about what you do
in Conservation Core.
Sure.
Yeah.
So it's, it's a lot of things.
It's mainly, um, habitat rerestoration, uh, things like,
what do that mean?

(20:09):
Like native, like here inMinnesota, I did a lot of work
in, um, prairie restoration.
Okay.
Yeah.
We have a lot of problems withour prairies are dying.
Um.
And sometimes it's even becauseforests grow in too much.
Oh, okay.
Prairies don't have anopportunity to get the sunlight
that they need.
Why do we need prairies?
We need prairies because itbalances things in our, okay.

(20:29):
Butterflies and system.
We need, we also need differentbugs and space.
Right.
We need space for rodents toOkay.
Kind of hide.
Um, I'm not a fan of rodents.
Right.
I know that it's all part of theJohn.
I'm just, John John's anendorsement.
I'm such an endorsement.
He's an avid endorsement.
Totally.
Okay.
So you should see me work aremote control.
God almighty.

(20:49):
It's just, it's a thing ofbeauty.
No, but I understand like the,the and sincerely e ecologically
thinking is what?
Yeah.
So we have a friend who.
Uh, Michelle Edelman, who everytime we're out visiting with
her, you know, we get into thisconversation about conservation,
conversation about conservation,and she talks about land,

(21:12):
bridges, and the fact that ifyou don't have land bridges, you
know, rodents specifically, andagain, I have to say, why do we
even want ronans?
They're disgusting, but, youknow, butterflies and, uh, the
pollinators and all that otherstuff.
And then she says.
Look at that lawn that peoplehave.
Mm-hmm.
She goes, you know, that lawn isdoing nothing for the

(21:32):
environment.
I said, but it's so pretty.
And I said, isn't that worthsomething?
And she goes, maybe in yourworld, your indoor, avid indoors
man world.
It is.
But So you're the, you worked inColorado, I recall.
I did.
I was in the Western ColoradoConservation Corps.
So I was on the most westernside of Colorado working in.

(21:55):
Uh, grand Junction.
That's where I was.
Oh, cool.
The headquarters was, but Iworked all over that area.
I would think that's almost likethe Harvard of Conservation
cores.
You'd think Colorado.
I mean, I mean there's a lot.
There's the SouthwesternColorado Conservation Core,
which is great too.
They do a lot of great things,but it really, actually, one of
the best ones that I've heard isMontana.

(22:17):
Hmm.
Well maybe you should go there.
I, and I'm planning on it.
That's fantastic.
Yeah.
I understand you're planning ongoing to Montana State?
Yes.
I haven't looked too far into itbecause I will be.
Living in Montana for a yeardoing the Conservation Corps
work.
Um, he's gonna explore hisoptions when he is there.

(22:38):
Oh, fantastic.
Maybe get residents down.
Lemme just give one littledetail.
Thought was super interesting.
When you do with ConversationCon Conservation Corps, when
you're out there, you'reactually based camping for four
days.
So you're, it's four, typicallyit's four to eight days.
So sometimes I'm, but yeah,they're, they're camping out on
site and they work on trails.
They clear trails, they haveheavy machinery, chainsaws, all

(23:00):
this kind of stuff.
And they're clearing differentkinds of trails needed.
They're building things andstuff, but then they, then they
come back, refresh.
You know, and then go back in.
So they're actually, so you'reliving outside.
So you're at night though.
You're going to like a JWMarriott?
No, no, no, no.
That was just you during That'sscouting trips.
Yeah.
When I would go scouting, whenwe would go to Boy Scout camp.

(23:22):
If I couldn't do it, I couldn'tdo it.
No, they can't.
He sleeps on tens.
You sleep because I understandyou got a truck that's pretty
sweet.
I do.
I I, last year I lived in mytruck for six months.
You know, homeless people dothat as well.
Yeah.
Or I think the term is unhousedpeople.
It's a whole culture though of,uh, of truck living, especially
Colorado, especially people inyour, in your community.
The conservation court group,they, a lot of people that they

(23:42):
go out that way and then theyfind apartments.
They can, otherwise, they can,they have land areas, they can
do it.
They live there.
That's super cool.
Um, girls are their girls outthere?
Yeah.
I, I think the greatest thing Igained.
From doing all this stuff is thecommunity, like all the people
that I've met, and that's sortof why I am pursuing it more so

(24:02):
than just my passion for theoutdoors.
That's.
Meeting tons of people fromacross the states.
Like I love, I mean, this isexactly what we're talking
about.
Yeah.
He's, he's socializing for sure.
Yeah.
This is a really big thing.
He's getting deep.
I, I don't wanna speak for you,but he's getting really deep
bonds and deep friendships withpeople from all around the
country.
So he's got, he's got friendseverywhere now.
They, they can, they're, they,they've shared deep, you know,

(24:24):
travels and, uh, you know,situations where it's dangerous
and like.
They're living on the land, youknow, somewhat.
So do and I, I, I am sarcasticand I apologize for that.
I'm sure you've already sick ofme and I get it.
I'm not for everybody.
No.
Um, but like, do you have wifiout there?
I mean, can you Oh yeah.
Okay.

(24:44):
So you can watch Netflix andstuff.
I have pretty good service inmost parts of Colorado., There's
internet everywhere.
I saw a lot of those too.
It's more so now than thanbefore.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Starlink, that's what it'scalled.
Yes.
It's Van Life is huge inColorado.
So a lot of people had those vanlife.
Yeah.
Like people living in theirvans.
Yeah.
Which is pretty much what I did.
Just down by the river.
Absolutely.
It had somebody had to say it.

(25:05):
Well, you've seen the Salt Lifestickers.
There should be a Van Lifesticker.
That's what there is.
You need one of those.
Oh, there is there.
A hundred percent.
It's kind of like thug life too,right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
What's that?
You've never heard of Thug Wife?
I've heard of it, but what is ita thing?
It's gangsta.
Yeah, gangsta Thug Life.
Oh, that's, um, was anothershow.
Another show.
Let's have a seizure.
Oh, that was some sort of a handgesture.

(25:27):
That's a, a wrap thing.
Let's not do that.
What I was gonna say was, Ben isa guy that.
Because he's lived in thissituation.
You know, he was a, you know, hewas just a suburban kid and all
of a sudden he got gained thisreally exposure to the outdoors.
And really, he and his friendscamp, camp out a lot.
They're camping this weekendoutside in the, in the winter.
Um, he's a guy that, becausehe's done that so much, he

(25:47):
really has an appreciation for.
Um, what showers, what it takesto make a meal.
Mm-hmm.
Like he has his own little coolgrill that he's made lots of
great meals on.
Like when you're, and, andpeople tell me this, I don't
hunt or anything, but I like tocamp a little bit, but I'm
nothing like, like here.
Well, your Hutchinson gig,didn't he set you up out there
when you stayed overnight?
Yeah, they did.
They, they, that was, you know,glamping pretty much, but Right,

(26:08):
right.
What I'm saying is, um.
You know, there's anappreciation if you're working
all day and, and you havesomething simple as just like
some chicken on a little grilland some vegetables, it tastes
better.
It does because you've earnedit.
You've worked outside.
He's talked about that a lot.
Like there's something aboutthat that's different.
And so this guy has anappreciation for being outdoors

(26:29):
and, and really nature.
And he actually takes his timeand goes, I gotta go for a hike.
He's just gotta get up.
I feel the same when I go toBaltimore, like, I have earned
this meal.
Oh yeah.
Right.
It's very, it's different, butyet it's the same.
It's pretty good.
It's, it's pretty good.
It's, you work the remote reallyhard and then you need, then I
need to reward yourself at theend of the day.
Yes.
Let's, but Ben, uh, ScottGalloway in that, in that news

(26:50):
report talked about high tech isreally kind of creating a
dependency among young kids.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, specifically youngmales that are sort of addicted
to screens.
Have you had any people on your.
In your conservation core teamthat have kind of gotten away
from the screen time and thenature?
'cause I've just heard thatthat's the anecdote for that.

(27:12):
When you're addicted, it'sgetting out, walking and just
being in nature.
It almost seems like they'repolar opposites.
Yeah.
I'll say this, just like what mydad was saying, like at the end
of the day the, I don't havemuch service to like scroll on
Instagram or anything.
I have enough service to textthe people that I need to, but.
The, the thing I look forward toat the end of the day is the

(27:34):
campfire where we're tellingstories, oh my God, we're
hanging out.
I love this guy.
Like it's bringing back theprimal like sense of community
and enter the entertainment isthe other people I'm talking to.
It's not like stories access, itmakes me wanna cry.
Yeah.
I'm saying I'm being verysincere.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean that is exactly, did iton fire.
Seriously.

(27:54):
You know what I, you know, itwould solve all of our problems.
I think everybody ought to spenda year.
Doing something likeConservation Corps.
Seriously?
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
You know, like in South Korea,you all have to, you know, if
you're in a a k-pop band, youhave to go do two years in, uh,
in the military.
It's just like that.
It's similar.
K-pop is, I don't know anythingabout that.
If you're in a band, you have todo two years of military.

(28:17):
Anybody, anybody that's a SouthKorean citizen.
Yeah, no.
That brings draft.
Yeah.
So those draft from Ts, don'tyou?
See, I watch too much tv.
I, I don't even know about Kpop.
I barely know about Kpop.
Oh my God, I'm such a loser.
Okay, so they, yeah, they, they,they work all day.
They work super hard.
They have this really good food.
They sit by the fire and theytell stories, and that's where
he bonded with these people.

(28:37):
They just, they work together.
They, they, they're in dangeroussituations sometimes and they're
operating heavy chain chainsaws.
They're carrying heavy gear allday long, helping each other.
And he said what they lookforward, he looked forward to
most, is sitting.
And having a fire.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Well, I would be looking forwardto the sitting part for sure.
'cause it sounds like it's a lotof work actually.
He told me, and, and you've toldme this before too, about
camping, like sometimes theright chair, uh, you, oh, having

(29:01):
be able to sit down by a fireinstead of sitting on a log,
having a little chair meanseverything.
So it means you're, you're,you're talking about gratitude,
simple pleasures.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And, and gratitude is the seedof happiness.
So any I totally agree.
Yeah.
Keep going.
I, I am sure you have morestories.
Yeah.
Tell us, uh, share more about.
Your experience with people thatmaybe are in this Sit Scott

(29:23):
Galloway's, uh, um, descriptionof young people.
I mean, you must know peoplethat are, that, that are
suffering.
I do, yeah.
I, go ahead.
Close friends that are incomfort crisis, almost like
they're so addicted to theirdevice, device, their, you know,

(29:44):
video games.
Whatever kind of instantdopamine that they can get to.
Mm-hmm.
And I think once you start tobreak free of that, like instant
dopamine and slow dopaminemm-hmm.
Like to tie it back to theconservation work, like we're
working on projects for weeks ata time.
Like sometimes we're drivingback to the same project and

(30:06):
we're just chipping away at thesame trail or the same prairie
or whatever we're doing.
Um.
The, the dopamine hits when youlook back and realize all the
work that you've done.
And that's ultimately way morerewarding than having that.
It's a bigger hit than theselittle hits.
It's, it's a much bigger hit andit's more sustainable.

(30:28):
Yeah, it's sustainable.
Yeah.
And it's, it comes with way morethan just dopamine.
Like it comes with like prideand well, and community fitness.
You're getting, you're, youknow, yeah.
You know, I was probably in thebest shape.
Is there like a, have you everseen the, uh, the show Stripes
when John Candy asks about, youknow, is there a movie in this
flight?
No.

(30:48):
No.
On the bus?
How's it goes?
How's it going, Eisenhower?
No.
When he says, he says, you know,this is a great op and I'm only
being half, you know.
Tongue in cheek.
What a great way to go out andget something accomplished while
you're getting in shape.
I always tell my wife she wantsto go for a walk.
I'm like, I ain't going for awalk, but I'll go out and I'll

(31:10):
cut my grass three differentdirections.
Boom.
And that's, I just needed JohnCandy wanted to become a lean,
mean fighting, fighting machineafter that.
The real tough.
But you like about a six toeight week training program
here, which is perfect for me.
Exactly.
I likewell a lot of aggression.
Lost with a lot of hamburgers.
That's right.
A lot of pizzas.
One with a lot of pizzas.
Wait, hold on.
I have a question for Ben.
So my, I'm really curious aboutthis because I'm, I know you,

(31:32):
and I know when you went outthere, you maybe didn't have
this, but was that a struggle?
Um.
You talked about chipping awayand you had to be like, oh,
we're going back here.
Like, of course.
How arduous was that for you tolike, oh, we're gonna do this
again, and everyone from yourteam must've been in the same
boat?
Like was it a grind at first?
Yeah.
How, how did, how did youovercome that?

(31:52):
How did you start to look backand go, okay, actually there is
always hard days.
There's always gonna be arainstorm or you know, and we
have to keep working or we haveto take breaks because of.
Lightning or whatever.
'cause we work in very highaltitude areas.
Yeah.
So the lightning is much moredangerous and way more active.
Um, but like, yeah, there weretimes where even when it wasn't

(32:14):
raining or anything, it's justhot and exhausting.
'cause when you're running achainsaw all day, the vibrations
from the chainsaw actually wearyour Yeah.
Arms.
That's some core strengththough, Jen.
Way more.
And it's also a heavy tool, soit's like.
Your arms are dead after threecuts.
Yeah.
And you have to do maybe ahundred cuts a day and and then

(32:36):
do it again the next day.
Yeah.
And again, the next day.
And, and then hauling.
Are you hauling?
No wonder you jacked.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
So, but, but my point, my pointthough is, um, when you were
seeing head and like it, youmust have been like, I don't
know, like I don't know if Iwanna do that.
That's where great leadershipcomes in.
'cause we all have crew leadsthat kind of.

(32:58):
Motivate.
Yeah, motivate us and the bestleaders are the ones that go,
listen guys, this is hard.
Like this is, I'm in the sameboat as you guys and I'm just
trying to get through this asmuch as you guys are.
Let's just do as much as we can.
Let work together and let's takean extra five minute break today

(33:19):
or whatever.
Like, that's awesome though.
Have a little reward or, yeah.
Vulnerability.
They're showing that they'revulnerable.
Yeah.
Vulnerability.
Ensures trust, which it leads toleadership.
Yeah.
What shows leadership, which.
Kind of ties into ourconversation about masculinity.
I think the real look at thisguy, masculinity.
Oh my God, can you come everyweek, John?

(33:40):
We've got a lot of peoplealready.
Come on, stop inviting to, buthe's better.
He better hear what Ben'ssaying.
He's got crap to do.
I'm, he's gotta get out in thewoods again.
Masculinity.
I'm just super impressed withhim.
He's be 21.
21.
Nice kid.
Yeah.
Nice guy, I should say.
Nice man.
Do you have a beer?
A young man?
Yes.
Probably had a beer.
He had his first beer inJackson, Wyoming.
I did my first and his favoritebar.

(34:01):
Awesome.
My first beer was at the CowboyBar in Jackson, Wyoming.
Like your first legal beer?
My first beer.
My first legal beer.
That was his, that was yourbirthday?
That was, that was my birthday.
Did you do some line dancingtoo?
Was there a cute, let's get backto masculinity line dancing.
This is, line dancing ismasculinity.
So back to my point.
Masculinity.

(34:21):
I think to me, and in myexperience, it's should be more
based around having empathy andintegrity rather than being
rooted in ego.
Like I've experienced leaderstoo that were like, we're having
a rough day, and he's like, suckit up, suck it up, and keep
going.
Like, this is your job.
You signed up to do this.
Don't add later.

(34:42):
Now it's harder the next day.
And I will say there are timeswhere that might be.
The required action, but I don'tthink that that's effective.
Like there's a differencebetween truth and effectiveness.
Like a boss or a my crew leadthat would say that he's being
truthful.
That like, you did sign up forthis and you have to suck it up.

(35:04):
Mm-hmm.
But that's not an effective wayto be a leader like you should
be.
Oh my God.
You should be more like, youshould have empathy and you
should have the integrity to belike.
I don't wanna break this guydown like I want to, I wanna
help him build him up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's leadership.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and in that's how I am onthis podcast guys.

(35:26):
We can do this.
Well, especially when I'mtelling a long story.
Is this gonna be a long story?
So I may have a patient, I getreprimand in a nice, in a nice
kind way.
you talk about friends that youknow are, are connected to their
video games and those kind ofthings.
I sincerely believe that if you,if we go back in time and you

(35:49):
look back to when the iPhone wasinvented, I think from that
point on, people became soenamored with their device and
now with ai, and I mean thisScott, what's his name?
Callaway, yeah.
You know, talks about the factthat, People are, it's so
realistic now, well, the, the,the product managers of these

(36:09):
firms, and I worked for one foralmost 20 years.
Um, the developers develop itfor your attention.
They, they, they make it.
So that you can't put it down.
It's an attention economy and sothese product managers are
incented to develop productsthat make you keep clicking and
and can't put it down, andthey've tapped into the

(36:30):
dopamine, the short termdopamine we talked about.
They figured this out.
And the what's crazy is the CEOsof these organizations don't let
their kids on their phone untila certain age.
Right.
So they know what's going on.
They, isn't that something?
Yeah.
It's just very hypocrisy.
Mm-hmm.
Oriented.
What's the answer?
Like, what's our, I think theanswer is not, not like Ben.
Well, yeah.

(36:51):
Be like, Ben, what, which youwere saying, um, empathy rather
than identity or ego.
So, I mean.
What should we do as people whoare not, we're, we're above that
generation.
We're older.
Yeah.
Like, I'm not saying we have allthe answers, but what are, what,
what do we think we could behelping?
So here's what I think from akindness perspective, I think
that as, as adults that havegone through an era where we

(37:14):
weren't attached to our devicesmm-hmm.
We are all probably attached toour devices more than we ought
to be.
Yeah.
But I think that the key is,being a good mentor to, whether
it's a mentor to your childrenor being a mentor to somebody in
the community that doesn't havethat role model, I can tell you
right now, there is a, a youngman who I care a lot about.

(37:37):
Uh, he was a friend of one of mysons, and when I see what he
posts on Facebook, and Facebookis the only thing that I consume
from a social media.
I don't really spend any time onX or I don't even have I,
Instagram, Facebook is prettymuch skewing much older, by the
way.
It's not really young people,but this is a young guy.
Okay.
Okay.
And he's posting some reallyangry stuff on there.
Mm-hmm.

(37:57):
And part of it is, I don't thinkthat he has, I, I don't believe
that he has a male role model athome mm-hmm.
That can direct him in the rightdirection.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's just, it'sheartbreaking for me because
when he posts things that arenot divisive.
He'll get like 75 thumbs up andhearts and all that stuff when

(38:18):
he posts this divisive stuff.
Crickets.
Crickets.
Yeah.
Like Two comments.
Can't you see that you're goingdown the wrong path?
So I think that, the mentorship,the long answers, this is a long
answer.
Uhhuh is, look for opportunitiesto mentor people.
I have another idea.
Um, it's also kind of justabout.

(38:38):
Basically bringing this to lightand, and people from our
generation, I have to understandthey're not raised coming up the
same way we did.
We have to have patience withthem.
They're not, yeah, they don'thave the balance of
understanding and Right.
They don't have thatsocialization that they really
are craving and need.
So we have to have patience forpeople who are acting out like
that and realize.

(38:59):
Have some like empathy, like thekid doesn't understand how this
works, so someone should helphim.
Someone should mentor him, butnot quickly think all the young
kids are idiots or like, youknow, they're all trouble.
The teenagers are trouble,they're, they're not troubled.
They're just teenagers.
I always tell, uh, I always tellpeople when kids are growing up,
our neighborhood had a lot ofyounger kids, and so Ben and

(39:19):
Lucy and their other friendshung around.
They were at our house all thetime.
Our house is the place.
Everybody hung around.
They're loud.
And they're kind of obnoxious,but they're not bad kids.
I knew all those kids since theywere little.
I had to kind of help ourneighborhood understand they're,
they're not, they're not comingaround.
They don't have switchbladeknives ready to hurt each other,
right?
They're, it's a gang, not dumbrum.

(39:39):
And they have cars and theydrove a little too fast, but
they weren't trying to hurtanybody.
They're just loud and dumb.
They're still understanding.
I want, I want you to watchthis, uh, Netflix show called
The the Perfect Neighbor.
And it's about a woman that getsso mad because these kids are
wild.
You seen that?
Oh yeah.
We saw it.
Lucy and Ben saw it.
The, the it.
Horrible.
It's terrible.
So scary.

(40:00):
But it's real.
Like I celebrate when I see kidsout, across the street, playing
catch with each other.
It just me warms my heart.
They're outside.
Me too.
They're outside.
And you know what, that's thenature.
We've got this basketball hoopset up in the backyard and I've
had neighbor kids come over andsay, can I use your basketball
hoop?
You can have my basketball hoop.
You're like, that's mine.
Knock yourself.

(40:21):
Right.
That's what I say.
You get five shots and you getoff my lawn.
Get off my lawn.
No, I know what you mean.
It is to see kids outsideplaying and, and, uh, it's, it's
such a, like, yes, thank God noone's sitting on their phone.
They're actually, but I thinkspecifically to boys if you're a
a woman listening to this show,I'm assuming that if you don't
have a son, you have a nephew ora.

(40:44):
Somebody in your life is a male.
Yeah.
And this should be important forall of us because I do think
that males have a tougher time.
They mentioned the fact thatlike going to college.
Yeah.
You know, it used to be 60, 40,60% of men were going to
college.
Then Title IX came along, whichis great.
Of college graduates, thisGalloway said 66% of college

(41:07):
graduates are women.
That's right.
Which is crazy to me.
So.
I look at some of the peoplethat are, your age, Ben, and
around your age, and how many ofthem have never had like a date,
you learn how to connect withpeople.
That was a kind of a game withus and was all right.
It was all either friends andyou're trying to be girls.

(41:27):
Girls are trying to meet guys.
When I was 19, I was a little, Iwas more on the shy side, but it
wasn't like, uh, I wasn'tinterested or anything.
By the way, I don't thinkcollege is the only answer.
I certainly not trades.
Schools, there's a lot ofoptions for kids that, uh, don't
want to go into debt.
But the point is, is going tocollege is a, is an opportunity
to connect.
It's true, it's a place toconnect socially, and it doesn't

(41:48):
need to be a four year expensivecollege.
But there are also institutionslike Americorp where you can,
uh, connect.
So how would a person sign up ifthey were interested in that?
How did you find them?
I found them through a friendtelling me about it.
'cause she had some experiencewith it.
But I just went to theAmeriCorps website and I looked
at their programs that they hadand then I zeroed in on where I

(42:09):
could do So it was a friendthough that kind of told you
about it and got you interestedin the first place.
Yeah, and now I am, I'veconvinced a friend of mine to
come with me to Montana nextyear, so.
Oh, that's so cool.
Yeah, so he gets to experienceit with me, which is exciting.
Very cool.
That's very fun..
So this is a very serious topic,obviously.
It is.
It's very, um, very heavy andvery kind of nerve wracking

(42:30):
about, you know, futuregenerations.
And we're like, where, uh, hewas, he's saying like, we're
almost like we're divid, we'redeciding our own.
Just, uh, uh, extinction.
We're, yeah, we're designing ourown extinction with That's
right, guys in their basements,not getting out, not meeting
women and not getting married.
No relationships, less financialopportunities.
Like, you know, like, it's, it'sall really scary.

(42:50):
But I think, not that we haveany answers, except we're
thinking, um, like, like Ben wassaying, like you're saying
mentorship and have someempathy, have some patience for
this generation, and understandthey've kind of been handed a
bad deal here and we gotta helpthem get out of here, watch
them.
Well, and my favorite thing thatBen mentioned.
And I think it's the mostimportant thing that you did is

(43:12):
you invited a friend toparticipate in AmeriCorps with
you.
There you go.
Yep.
Have the courage as a youngperson to ask somebody to
participate in whatever it is,come and play in my volleyball
league.
There are people that aredesperate for those types of
connections, but they're waitingfor some, they just don't have
the courage to ask someone elseto do it.

(43:34):
Be the person that connectsthem.
There you go.
With other people, if you arecurrently connected, whether
it's through AmeriCorps orsomething else extracurricular
that you're doing.
If you see somebody that seemsto not have that ability to
connect, ask'em to participatewith you.
That's why I try to get peopleto come out to see my band play.

(43:54):
Yeah.
I, all kidding aside, that'snice promotion.
Oh, there are opportunities forconnection.
It's a, it's a community, it's agroup, it's a connection.
And we all rally around this funmoment, this fun night.
And you know, I'm, yeah, I'mkind of joking, but, but one of
the things that, and I knowyou're at the dugout again.
Yeah.
We gotta promote, you know this,this Saturday, right?
No, it's the 22nd of November22nd.
Oh, before Thanksgiving.

(44:15):
Right?
Before Thanksgiving.
Oh.
Might people make it to that onefun?
Because you better first we'rean after party here at your
house?
Yeah.
Oh, great.
Oh, that's, it's the 22nd.
Yes.
So we're gonna be at the dugoutand here's what I thought was
cool about your, see, see, Ben,how I have to sneak in my
promotions.
Oh, that's fine.
You're making a lot of money onthis podcast.
Oh my God.
What are you gonna do with allof it?
The last time that I saw youthere, obviously there's a whole

(44:36):
bunch of middle aged people thatare out there trying to relive
their glory years.
But your daughter, but you keepcoming out because it's, but
your daughter was there with awhole bunch of her friends.
Yes.
And I just looked at that groupNot just that they're coming to
see the old man play.
No, but the fact that they'reout there and they're, they're
having good, clean fun.
They all came to St.
Cloud.
The whole gang came to St.
Cloud too.
I know.

(44:56):
It was the funnest for me, extrapride, just swelling.
But how fun is this to, to see,uh, young people Yeah.
Out on a dance floor, watchingband, watching live music and,
and being involved and taking atrip up to St.
Cloud and going to Hutchinson.
They came to Hutchinson too.
Well.
As proud as you are of havingpeople up at that thing, you

(45:16):
gotta be really proud of thisguy.
Incredibly proud of this guy.
I'm serious., That's why Ithought he was a perfect guy to
help.
Oh my God, he's just the perfectguy.
And tie in well spoken andseemingly smart.
Considering your geneticdisposition.
I know your mom is a delightfulperson.
She's the smart one, actually.
Of course.
I mean, clearly.
It was great having you on.
Thank you.
And I would love to have you onagain before you go to Bozeman.

(45:39):
Yeah, I'd love to.
Or maybe if you can give us areport out there and give us how
this, how it's going.
We can call in and that'd bekind of cool.
Sure.
I or after whatever, be on thatmonitor.
That's right.
We can, we can dial you in fromthe, the campfire.
Let's do it.
If we've got the bandwidth, wecan pull that off.
It'd be fun to talk to yourpeople.
Well, I hope that we'verecovered some of our listeners
from the, uh, the politicaldisaster that anyone could help

(45:59):
us.
It'd be Ben Brown right here,Ben Brown.
Yep.
Cool.
Name too.
Yep.
Seriously.
Well, with that, I guess, off wego.
Thank you, Ben.
Thanks, Ben.
Thanks Ben.
Thank you guys.
Here we go.
The.

(46:19):
Been playing this game for 10years and you got two more
quarters, and after that, mostof you will never play this game
again as long as you live.
To me, being perfect is notabout that scoreboard out there.
Being perfect is about beingable to look your friends in the
eye and know that you didn't letthem down because you told'em
the truth.
And that truth is, is that youdid everything that you could.

(46:39):
There wasn't one more thing thatyou could have done.
It's a long story.
If you do that, gentlemen, thenyou're perfect