Billy McLaughlin (Part 1 of 2)

World-class guitarist, composer and producer, Billy McLaughlin joins us in studio in a fascinating two part interview.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Thank you for tuning into theKindness Chronicles.
The guest that we had this week,Billy McLaughlin, was so
fascinating that we decided todo it as a two-part program.
This is part one of ourinterview with Billy McLaughlin,
What's the deal with nobodyleaving Voicemails anymore?

(00:27):
All righty.
Welcome to The KindnessChronicles, where once again, we
hope to inject the world with adose of the Minnesota kindness
that it desperately needs.
Our 55-year-old intern, Jeff hasbeen having some fun this week.
He's, uh, he's back.
He was in, uh, where are you inColorado last week?
Montana.
Actually.
Montana.
It's all the same.
Yeah, we drove, we drove, so wewent through the Dakotas as

(00:49):
well.
Very nice.
Well, welcome back Jeff.
Steve Brown's in the studio.
Hi, once again.
We're, uh, we are taping on thenight that Mr.
Gorg is working at Canterbury,so I'm sure he's doing just
fine.
But, welcome fellas.
We have a very special guest, avery famous guy.
Super excited.
I know, Jeff, you're reallyexcited about our guests.
We should just get right intoit.

(01:09):
I have a little intro, so I'lljust kick it right off here.
Thank you.
So today on The KindnessChronicles, we're joined in the
studio by a musician whose storyis as, as is an as inspiring as
his music.
Billy McLaughlin is an acousticguitar innovator, famous for his
tap style technique thatredefined what one guitar can

(01:32):
sound like.
I first saw him play as afreshman at UMD in Duluth in the
late eighties, and not longafter that, his music hit the
billboard top 10 and has takenhim around the globe.
But in 2001, a neurologicalcondition robbed him of control
over his fretting hand.
Doctors told him to hang it up.

(01:52):
Instead, Billy switched hands,teaching himself to play
left-handed relearning his ownsongs.
Note by note.
In a world that often focuses onwhat divides us, Billy's story
reminds us of what brings ustogether, determination,
artistry, and an unshakeablehuman spirit.
Live in our Madam Midi studio.

(02:14):
Please welcome Billy McLaughlin.
Woo.
Welcome sir.
Hello.
Thank.
Thanks for having me.
I just have to compliment Jeff.
He's so officious and soorganized.
for years we've been doing thispodcast and it's literally, it's
been this rinky dink thing and,and all of a sudden we've got
this intern in here that'shaving fun with our soundboard.

(02:38):
I would imagine that you useyour iPhone for more than just a
phone and emails.
It, I do it.
You probably do.
It is a key to all.
It's also a calculator.
You know, it's pretty much aSwiss Army knife, uh, when it
comes to me, so, okay.
Enough about that, that it's agreat intro.
Yes.
Billy.
Billy, nice intro.
Billy.
I just have to say, I have beena fan of your for many years.
You always, uh, seem to, to do ashow at Chatauqua., It almost

(03:01):
feels like it might be your homebase.
You do so many shows up there,but had the privilege of,
following your career and thefact that you're in the, uh,
basement studio is a big dealfor me.
So thank you for coming.
Well, I'm really glad thatsomebody went to any of those
chau shows.
Well, here's, here's the thingabout it.
You know, we hear music on andoff throughout the day in

(03:21):
various situations to get in areally beautiful performing art
center where people are.
Instantly connected to what'scoming from the artist, and then
it becomes a participatorything.
That Chautauqua um, performingarts center has been a special

(03:41):
spot for me, for sure.
Well, I just have to paint aplug we recently built a 500
seat Jewel Box auditorium inSouth Bloomington at the Masonic
Heritage Center, and uh, I'vebeen told that acoustically it's
one of the best.
Are you familiar with it?
I've played there 10 times.
Have you there?
Have you really?
Of course, of course.
He's played there.

(04:01):
Why wasn't I invited?
He everywhere supposed to berunning the joints.
You're, you're so busy that,that you didn't catch wind of it
or see the so, so seriouslyyou've played there 10 times.
Yeah, I saw that probably 10times.
Oh my God.
Now you better say somethingnice about it or, or Oh no,
it's, tell'em what you reallythink of it.
It's, it's fantastic.
It's, it's pretty cool.
Right.
Again, again, for anyone who'sdoing.
Music to not have to competewith, uh, you know, beer

(04:23):
bottles, Cing Uhhuh in a, in a,in a bar setting.
Yeah.
We try and keep it classy.
Well, you know, it's not easyfor a musician, um, just
starting out to, and, and it'sno guarantee that this, that
anyone is gonna get theopportunities that I've had to
play beautiful theaters, um, allaround the world really.

(04:44):
And, um, and so the Masonic is,well, that makes my day.
Yeah, there you go.
It's been just, I just wishsomebody would tell me what's
going on in that space.
Well, sidekick theaters got alot going on in there.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
You know those guys?
Yeah.
Um, they, uh, trying to, Brian,uh, Brian and Tim.
Yeah.
Al yeah.
Brian was stage managing, uh, Ithink he stage managed pretty

(05:06):
much every show.
No kidding.
That I've done there and, andnow it, um, I haven't been, been
back in a while, but we wouldlove to come back there.
Well, let's go when the time,when the time is right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tell us about your group.
Well, could we, I was, oh, I'mwondering if could Jeff.
It's okay.
I was just, just got a lot ofquestions, John.
Let, let, I was thinking throughthis episode and how do we, uh,

(05:27):
progress it forward and one ofmy favorite episodes when I
started listening to theKindness Chronicles, that's a
good way to go do this, was thechronology of Steve Brown and
his band Johnny Clueless.
And so I started digging intoyour origins.
You went to Washburn HighSchool, and I would just, maybe
you could take us through likeyour, your, your journey of

(05:48):
musicianship from your family inMinneapolis and, and Washburn,
and then how it led up to the1988 performance when I saw you
at UMD.
I'd love to hear that.
I'll, I'll try to keep it asshort as I possibly can, but in
a large family, nine kids.
Oh wow.
Older brothers and sistersplaying music.
Um, Irish family.
Yeah.
Irish family.
Irish Catholic family.

(06:09):
50th and Lyndale area of SouthMinneapolis.
Um, you know, hey, if you're inMinnesota and it's cold out and
you don't want to go playhockey, man, you want to like,
you, you learn to play music orsomething Sure.
In, in the basement during theselong winters.
I mean, it, it's true.
There's some just incrediblemusicians who have come from
this part of the country, and Ithink that might have a little

(06:29):
something to do with it.
For sure.
It did for me.
So I'm trying to find myidentity in a large family.
Um, and the older brothers wereso, you know, straight a, you
know, super good musicians, tookmusic theory and I, and I, I
just was looking for somethingto make me feel better.
And the guitar.

(06:50):
Well, the piano wasn't so much,it didn't work out.
The, um, the trumpet didn't workout and the drums didn't work
out like three strikes.
And you are a guitar player,right?
Well, usually it's you're adrummer.
Well, I, I didn't even, I gotkicked off the, the drum and
bugle court'cause I couldn'tkeep the beat.
Oh no.
Yeah.

(07:10):
And so for me it was a, a wayof, um, it was an, an instant
connection.
I've had a love affair with theguitar since I picked it up when
I was 12, 13 years old.
I had already bragged to try toget attention from girls that I
knew how to play and I didn'tknow a thing about it, but
actually started, um, gettingafter it, um, in seventh grade.

(07:32):
And you find yourself, oh,there's an opportunity to play
my guitar.
Where in front of how manypeople at church on Sunday?
Which my dad thought was thedevil mass.
Oh.
Though he did not, guitarsweren't supposed to building.
Yeah.
We call that disco church.
Yeah.
Well, back then it was, it waslike folk.
It was like Peter Paul and MaryChurch.
Yeah.
You know, that's what it was.
Yeah.

(07:52):
But, but, but here's a criticalthing.
You know, you, the experiencefor any musician to start to
play in ensemble forces you to,um, play in rhythm.
It, it, it, um, it's thequickest way for you to improve
your skills.
Yeah.
And to be able to, to relate toeach other.
You have to be able to come intogether.
It forces your technique tocatch up to where the next chord

(08:15):
is coming down in and witheverybody.
Yeah.
And listening and the, and thejoy of, of hearing it and, and
going like, wow, you guys, wesound really good.
So.
I, so I'm already starting toplay an ensemble by the summer
between eighth and ninth grade.
I was transitioning away fromthe Catholic school, but we were

(08:36):
a bunch of the musician kidsthat we're all playing with.
We started to jam in thedriveway every afternoon.
No kidding.
That's fine.
Going into ninth grade, thatband, actually, I remember
getting paid the first time Idid a Sadie Hawkins dance at
Holy Angels High School andmade, oh my gosh.
That's when my wife went toschool and, and made 50 bucks
when I was in ninth grade.

(08:57):
Wow.
I couldn't make$50 in a weekchopping celery at Hong Kong
cma, which was my other job.
Was that with Paradox or anotherband?
So this was the precursor toParadox.
So I get into, so I'm justleaving the junior high, getting
into public high school.
When I got to, uh, Washburn HighSchool my sophomore year, there
were so many great musiciansthat wanted.

(09:19):
Um, I, I was aware of how manygreat musicians were there
because I would go hear my olderbrothers and sisters play at the
two night, sold out 1200 seatstheater, uh, like the talent
show.
It was like America's Got Talentat Washburn and it was the wow,
hugest, coolest thing.
And in fact, I just was therewith Jimmy Jam Fun.

(09:40):
Who?
Yeah.
That he, did he go to Washbury?
Yes, he did.
Oh, wow.
He just accepted his, uh.
His honorary diploma because heleft to pursue music after
junior year.
Now he and I didn't connectthere, but I connected with the
players that formed a groupcalled Paradox.
Um, unfortunately we didn'trealize that there was a band

(10:01):
much more established withexactly the same name, and
everybody thought then, uh, theywould come and hear us and say,
where's we thought you were ametal band.
Oh, geez.
And we weren't.
We were playing music.
Our, our set list was probablyone of the more eclectic for
kids our age to be playingSteely Dan, Ricky Lee Jones
Santana.

(10:22):
Cool.
Joan Armit trading.
Yeah.
That's not, that is not normal.
Yeah.
Earth.
What was, what year was this?
Okay, so I graduated high schoolin 1980.
Okay.
So we're talking about 70, 70,you know, starting there in 77
when Washburn won the statefootball championship for the
last time.
It was a lot of fun.
And these older players.

(10:44):
Already had the idea of, youknow, let's start, you know,
getting our equipment together.
We're gonna go talk to thepeople at Marsh Productions and
shown productions, get a bookingagent.
And we were playing high, well,it started with just high school
dances at first.
And I kept telling my parentsall through high school that I

(11:06):
was playing at a, at a highschool dance, we were playing
clubs.
Man, you got in Yeah.
Underage, but they the end underage.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I had to do that at UMD.
Right.
So it comes to a point where,you know, you start getting all
the stuff in the mail from thedifferent colleges.
What are you gonna do?
And I, I was like, you know, Ireally didn't wanna get super

(11:29):
academic about music.
Mm-hmm.
I, I was smart enough, I took amusic theory course that was
offered, um, at, at zero hourat, at the school.
It was like a At Washburn?
Yes.
Wow.
At Washburn.
And it saved my tail.
Because I made the decision to,to pursue a guitar department
that was doing more than justclassical.

(11:50):
Uh, the University of Minnesotaat the time only had a
classical, uh, degree that youcould pursue.
Yeah.
And I, I, I didn't grow up upwith that music.
I didn't read music very well.
This program was, um, calledStudio Guitar, meaning you might
get a call because you live inla you're a great guitar player

(12:11):
who can read, who can play alittle bit, bit of bluegrass,
some jazz, some rock and roll.
It was a very open-mindedprogram at USC.
Right.
At USC, right.
Yeah.
So I, I went out to la um, atthe end of senior year, um,
paradox, some of the older guyshad already transitioned into
college and were moving todifferent parts of the country.

(12:33):
And the band was, had afantastic run, um, of about
three years.
And then it, it was.
Time to make a decision again.
Like, what are you gonna dowith, with, with college?
And I, I thought, you know, if Ilove music this much, I better
learn how to, I gotta learn howit works, you know?
Mm-hmm.
I want to learn aboutcomposition, I wanna understand

(12:55):
how to communicate with everyperson in the orchestra.
And I'm not doing that now.
I'm just, I'm, I'm like, youknow, self-teaching, um,
learning Carlos Santana guitarsolos by Wow.
Like year.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just by listening.
And so I, I, I ended up in agreat spot at UFC for four

(13:16):
years, I'd say.
And the, yeah, the, did, did thefaculty influence me as much as
the, my fellow classmates?
I, I would say it's reallyinteresting.
If you find a good program, youjust might learn as much, if not
more from the people that you'rein school with and collaborating
with.

(13:36):
Um, just, uh, was the.
Tuition as insane at USC as itis today?
Uh, for the time, I would say.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
And so, so USC um, offered, um,of the two programs that I was,
uh, uh, accepted to.
Um, the other one was where PatMetheny, um, uh, graduated from

(14:00):
in Coral Gables from Universityof Miami.
Uscs, uh, um, financial aidpackage was, was better.
Oh wow.
For me.
And I learned quickly that Ineeded to get the, the home
phone number of the financialaid lady, which somehow I
managed, I Oh, Jesus was callingher at home saying, you know

(14:21):
what?
I'm a straight A student and Ican't come back here if you guys
don't find a way to keep mehere.
And, and SC was, was pretty goodto me.
I mean, I, I graduated with abig student loan like a lot of
people do, but.
Um, the California grant system,um, was something that I was
able to tap into.
'cause I, I just moved outthere.
I got my driver's license outthere.

(14:41):
Oh, cool.
And once you do that, you'repart of it.
Oh, there you go.
You qualify for some Cal uh,state aid was very helpful
trying to get through.
So I'm gonna do my best toconvey, since we don't have
music here, but what it was liketo hear some of your
compositions when I first heardyou at UMD, because you had a
song called Helm's Place, and Ihave a kind of an uncanny

(15:04):
memory.
Yeah.
But you had really good storiesto go along with each of these
songs and Helm's Place, if Iremember correctly, you were
living, that's a song by theway.
And you'll, I'll let youdescribe what, how you, what
inspired you to write it,because it's about the road you
were on, but weren't you livingwith a lady, uh, for three years

(15:24):
in her basement or ceiling orattic?
I, I don't, go ahead.
Whoa.
So living on campus was really adrag.
I didn't, I I didn't like it.
I, I couldn't sleep.
The dorms were too noisy.
It's like I and I, I had anopportunity, I found a, a, a
little upstairs, kind of a miniapartment in a, in a, uh, an

(15:46):
elderly, I would call her.
She was in her seventies.
Um, uh, Norma, uh, Hart Sock,um, rented me the upstairs of
her place for 90 bucks a month.
Wow.
And this is just unheard of.
It was so lucky.
Was this in 1907?
No, no.
It, it was you guys, it wasunbelievable.
She was, you know how I met herthrough one of the guitar

(16:10):
buddies who had the place beforeme and got married and moved
out, and I was lucky enough toinherit this situation.
Wow.
But the thing about the house onHelm's Place.
The Helm's Bakery is like themaster bread, uh, or wonder
bread of, of the LA area.
Helm's Bakery is a big deal.
So Helm's Place named after thebakery is a little street that

(16:31):
cut off of Robertson Boulevard,um, right at the I 10 Santa
Monica Freeway.
And her house was the last houseon the left side of the road as
you drove down.
Um, that was closest to theguardrail and there were no
sound barriers.
Oh God.
And so, you know, luckilygrowing up in South Minneapolis,

(16:52):
I got used to the airplanesgoing on.
Sure, sure.
You can get used to that.
There's like at a point youdon't notice it anymore.
Yeah.
But um, when I came, when Imoved back to Minnesota after,
uh, trying to make it out therefor a while, I couldn't sleep at
night'cause it was too quiet.
It was just too quiet.
You know, at first I couldn'tsleep at night'cause it was too

(17:13):
loud.
Then I realized I needed to hearsome of that and so I started.
Experimenting with differentthings on the guitar that
reminded me of that.
Mm-hmm.
That constantly, you know, likethose movies that are kind of
sped up and everything's likecruising really fast, you know?
Yeah.
It's like I was trying to comeup with something that, that

(17:33):
felt like it sounded I livedthere.
Well, your, your songs tellstories and that's what's so
cool about it.
I remember another guitar playerI, I was jamming with,
introduced you to him,introduced him to you through
the CDs, and the first thing hesaid is, these compositions are
amazing.
His name was, was MattMathiasson.

(17:53):
I Good guitar player up inForest Lake.
But, um, that, and then therewas a, so you, you, we'll, I
wanted to just let everyone knowif it's okay, we'll post links
to these songs after in socialmedia so people can find Helm's
Place, for example.
Sure.
Um, another one and, and, and itkind of ties into what we'll get

(18:15):
to later in the story, but acool story you shared was the
song called Rob Me.
Oh man.
Yeah.
Do do Dolly.
There's there a story there.
Yeah.
So that's a band, that's a,that's a, a piece that has
actual words that tell, tell thestory of what happened.
So I found myself aftergraduating college, um, not

(18:36):
really wanting to come back toMinnesota right away until I had
something to, you know, kind ofsay like, I'd accomplished
something.
You know what I mean?
It's like I'm not quite readyto, you know, not that I was
digging La Man LA is a very,you, you know, it's, you can be
completely anonymous there.
It's, it's really easy to dothat.

(18:56):
It's also to easy to not feelconnected to much of anything.
Mm-hmm.
So, anyhow, I found myself in asituation where, um, Norma's,
uh.
Kids packed her up and moved heroff to a care facility, which
she needed, um, a memory carething situation, but they didn't
tell me.

(19:17):
And I had come home to Minnesotafor a few months in the summer
and I got back no.
And all my stuff was on the, inthe yard.
Oh no.
They had just, they had justmoved her like the couple of
days.
It was weird timing.
And, and here I am, I got likeabsolutely nowhere to live.

(19:38):
So I was, uh, in a tough spot.
I was looking for a place tolive.
I actually masqueraded for abouta year as a USC student, took
over another kid's lease andavoided the, the, the, um,
person who ran the buildingYeah.
At all costs.
The ra ra Yeah.
The right, the ra, um, was, shewas very suspicious of me, but I

(20:01):
carried a backpack and I made itlook like I was.
Gotta do what you gotta do.
Yeah.
So it, so there's this pointafter college, I'm, I'm still
trying to make it.
And, and then the deal fellapart at the dorm and I was
actually living in my car.
And luckily I had a few buddieswhere I could couch surf for a
while, but, you know, I can'treally walk into an apartment

(20:26):
with my amp and my threeguitars.
And so I was, kept everythinglike under a blanket in my
little Volkswagen station wagonthat I had and was couch surfing
in a tough part of town.
And, and all the, everything wasstolen.
Oh, no.
Yeah.
And it was interesting though.
It was my electric guitars.

(20:46):
I was really playing archtop,um, Chet Atkins style playing at
that time.
Okay.
And, and or trying to sound likeCarlos Santana or Robin Ford or,
yeah, I was, I was heading in sobig hollow body guitars, um,
yeah.
Bigger, or even like a 3 35, Ithink at that time I didn't have
a 3 35 and I had, uh, a Les Pauland a, and a beautiful Gretch

(21:09):
Superchat.
Yeah.
And all stolen.
Yeah.
Well, it was all those are niceguitar nerd nerds talking about
guitars.
Those are nice guitars.
Yeah.
Expensive guitars too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They were the only guitars thatI had really, um, um, well,
actually, my, I did have anEpiphone acoustic that was part
of that trio, and that was goneas well.
Oh, geez.
So, but here's the odd thing,you guys, this is a terrible
thing that happened and it wasreally shocking and I was, uh,

(21:32):
you know, embarrassed that I, Iput myself in that situation
where I could, you know, uh, beso vulnerable.
Mm-hmm.
But.
What came of it, and this is athing that has recurred several
times in my life.
So it's helped me, it helps meto this day to remember that
sometimes the worst thing thatever happened to you might end

(21:53):
up being one of the greatestthings that ever happened to
you.
So here's what happened next.
I caught wind of, uh, a teachingposition.
Um, so I would have some incomeand, but they needed an acoustic
guitar teacher, okay?
Mm-hmm.
So the first guitar that I getafter I've been devoted to the

(22:15):
electric guitar for the lastseven, eight years of my life.
Is an acoustic guitar.
And I never would've gotten thatguitar had it not been for that
teaching job.
Wow.
Hmm.
That, and that and that ledinterestingly, within a few
weeks to a, a, a gig right up onLa Lankershim across from the
MCA, uh, record tower with aanother acoustic.

(22:37):
He needed a, a duo partner Onwhat?
On acoustic guitar.
I hadn't really spent any time.
So you weren't forcing yourselfto do a lot of acoustic.
You had one, but you were doinga lot of electric.
Yes, exactly.
So this, wow.
So the theft, so the song RobbedMe is, is about that experience
and, um, you know, uh, it, butit, it became a pivot point for

(22:59):
me, right.
Like a, something that wentwrong, actually put me in a new
direction.
That is what I'm known fortoday, is playing acoustic
guitar.
Sot it's bizarre.
You weren't doing the tapping byNo.
That led you to the tappingtechnique that you've become
known for.
W Yeah.
I, I, I, well, I think theneurological disorder is really

(23:21):
ultimately what led Well, that'shis second act.
Oh, he did it before he, he wasOh, you were doing it before?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
I had, I had been aware ofMichael Hedges and his
groundbreaking, unorthodoxtechnique, and I was entranced
by him and John Reborn, um, uh,great.
Stanley Jordan did that too, asa jazz guitar player.
Right.
He did a lot of Yes.

(23:42):
Something like that.
Yeah.
But he, so the weird thing aboutthat is Stanley is playing, um,
when he, so he's playingright-handed.
Right.
And he, he's playing with likeboth hands up over the top or
some, sometimes he'll be thisway, but more than anything,
he's got both hands up.
Like he, like it's a keyboard orsomething.
Like it's a keyboard.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And, and, and I, I did get toopen for him a couple years ago.

(24:05):
Cool.
It was mind blowing to bearound.
Yeah.
Another hero of, of mine, butOkay.
Yeah.
So this weird thing thathappened like a, a fork in the
road and I, I took it.
It not having the electricguitar distraction.
Let me get back in touch withthe instrument that I first

(24:26):
started on, which was anacoustic guitar on the front
porch swing, you know, growingup as a kid and going like, wow,
man, this is like the coolestthing to be that close to where
the sound comes out.
Yeah.
And to making the sound yourselfgenerates the sound as opposed
to having an app have to do it.
Yeah.
Right, right.
Exactly.
So, so it was like a full circlemoment for me to come back to
acoustic guitar and, and Iimmediately started exploring

(24:52):
Altered Tunings because ofMichael Hedges.
Mm-hmm.
I really loved his music, and Ithought, you know, I've been
heading in this direction.
I bet I, I bet I could getsigned to his record label.
So I started writing all thisstuff.
I actually decided to move backto Minnesota.
At that point.
I was like.
It.
I didn't move back right afterthe, the, the robbery.
I, I, I wanted to kind of makegood on what I was doing out

(25:14):
there, but I found my way back.
I'm very happy that I, I cameback in late 86.
Um, so I was out in LA for, forsix, um, you know, long years.
Okay.
And, um, and at, at, at thepoint I got back, I was just
full of so many ideas of what todo with the acoustic guitar and
what happens when you put apickup in it and put some

(25:35):
amplification behind the notesand the, and the strings start
to quiver a little bit on theirown.
And it's, it becomes like thisbreathing, not exactly a dragon
or anything.
It, it, it's true though, whenyou turn it on and you're in a
live performance, it's justlike, it just fills the room and
it's like, oh, this is gonna beso cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I had fun being probably theloudest of the acoustic guitar

(25:57):
players around other thanMichael, because I just, you
know, I was used to playing inbands and now playing by
yourself, you still wanna fillup the room, you know?
Mm-hmm.
That led to, uh, you know,making recordings demo.
I, I got rejected by WindhamHill, like Oh.
Immediately, because they said,well, we already have Michael

(26:17):
Hedge.
Yeah.
We, we, we have one of those.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I said, well, I'm not waitingaround for anyone to give me
permission to do this.
I'm gonna, I'm, I, I give myselfpermission to start recording,
making my own records.
And, um, so at this point, I'mliving above the music store in
White Bear Lake, uh, aboveEvan's Music.
And, um, I connected with DaleGoulette Oh, yeah.

(26:40):
From Limited Warranty.
He's passed on now.
Yeah, I know Dale.
So Dale, um, engineered andrecorded my first, uh, project,
which was kind of a mix ofacoustic guitar pieces.
Yeah.
What was the, and his company.
Um, he was in limited warranty.
Oh, I know that.
But, but he, he called it JohnnyAudio, but then he was with Wow.
And Flutter.
Wow.
And Flutter.
Yeah.
Another limited warranty guy.

(27:01):
Jerry.
Jerry, Jerry Bruski.
Yeah.
Good memory.
Yes.
I have a funny connection tothose guys.
Uh, back in, it had to have beenlike 86 or 87 when limited
warranty was really taken off.
Yeah.
They won Star search.
They won Star Search now, seasonone.
So I was out at the, atCanterbury hanging out, betting

(27:24):
on horses.
And Jerry Brunskill was, uh, ahorse racing guy.
Oh, okay.
And I recognized him.
And, you know, that many guys atthe, at, you know, I was a
limited warranty nerd.
I loved Limited warranty.
Yeah.
They were great.
And you saw'em at the Smoke FreeGeneration concert.
IWI was a, I was like a bouncerat the Smoke Free Generation

(27:45):
concert.
Well, it was a standing in frontof the stage.
Never been so hot.
In my life.
There was no air conditioning atthe Metrodome at that time.
Target rich environment though.
But I just, that's fun that you,that Dale.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and it, it was, um, I thinkfor an artist doing original
music, you, you kind of have toget over the perfectionism issue

(28:08):
and none of my recordings haveever been quote unquote perfect.
But each one has led to the nextYeah.
Thing.
It's growth, right?
Yeah, exactly.
And so some of the players whowere on the album that, again,
it was half acoustic guitarmusic, I was gigging with the,
um, the other half of the band,which is, um, a lot of great

(28:29):
players from the, the northside.
They were, and, and what wouldhappen is when the band would go
on break, you know, somebodywould say, Hey, play that
acoustic guitar stuff thatyou've been doing.
And so I started playing thosepieces in, in clubs and people
were really reacting to it in apositive way.
And the drummer from thatproject, which was like an Andre

(28:51):
Simone, uh, CVS project calledthe Girls the Drummer, Kirk
Johnson, who I spent a whole lotof time, I loved the man so
much.
Um, um, the drummer in thatgroup said, we gotta, we gotta
start playing this stuff out.
And it was a UMD guy, and thisties into you, sir.

(29:12):
Okay.
This is crazy.
So I've got this acoustic guitarmusic that I'm, I'm, I'm wanting
to play.
I want, I've got these greatmusicians that none of my
friends even know that I'mworking with.
What am I gonna do?
And I realized at that point Iwas teaching guitar in White
Bear Lake.
I wasn't living my dream, I wasteaching.

(29:35):
Like, uh, in preparation to beable to buy the equipment and
eventually the van that weneeded to go around to the
colleges.
But I, before playing anycolleges, I'm, I'm in my
apartment in White Bear Lake andI go, you know, I'm, I'm just a
guitar teacher.
I'm not a concert artist.
How do I solve this?
And the next day I calledO'Shaughnessy Auditorium at St.

(29:59):
Kate's, where I used to go seeMichael Johnson every year.
Love Michael Johnson.
Oh, I, yeah, I miss him so much.
Um.
And because I idolized him somuch, I said, I wanna play
O'Shaughnessy Auditorium.
What's it gonna cost?
And I had just gotten my firstcredit card that had a$2,500
limit.
Oh boy.
And get this, you guys, I rentedO'Shaughnessy Auditorium with

(30:23):
that credit card and it was2,500 bucks.
I maxed it out.
I worked with a great guy, MikeGraph, who's still in the
performing arts scene here inthe twins.
Uh, he's up in Fergus at theperforming arts center up there.
But, um, a friend of mine wasrunning a, a one of those
spotlight deals.
Uh, Dave Del had a searchlightcompany mm-hmm.

(30:45):
That he, and so he pulled up thelights the night of the show.
Really?
I sold, I sold 500 tickets for,for$10.
Awesome.
And I was, there you go.
And well, and one of the waysyou, you, the smart thing you do
is you get about 17 differentartists to be in the band.
You know, so they've invite alltheir friends to Sure.
Yep.
Makes sense.
So my, my first concert.

(31:07):
I was, I had a student who wasworking for the local cable over
here on County F, and he said,would you want someone to shoot
video at that concert group?
W Cable?
Yes.
Yeah.
Or whatever they're called.
Yeah.
Group W, they used to be calledGroup Up Cable.
Yeah, I remember that.
Yeah.
Okay.
So he's a 16-year-old kid.

(31:27):
I was never forget him, JohnSchroeder.
And, and I said, sure, I'd loveto have a four camera shoot.
He says, I can get him to do it.
We're always looking forsomething to do.
Yeah.
And so I get a four camera shootof my very first concert.
Wow.
And interestingly, in promotingthe concert, I forced myself to

(31:48):
go down to Uptown and at thecorner of Lake in Hennepin, and
I was handing out these littlecards and a fellow.
Who you might know.
Okay.
Do you remember Scott Ness?
No.
Okay.
He was a little older than youmaybe.
Okay.
You might've been behind him.
So this happened in April orMay, excuse me, may of 1987.

(32:12):
Okay.
Was the, the, the concert was onSink of the Mile on 1987.
Well, a week before that, I hada guy that I handed the card.
He goes, well, what do you do?
I do guitar and I got a reallycool band.
He goes, well, I book all themusic up at UMD.
Oh, awesome.
So he was with Kirby ProgramBoard.
He was with Sally Kain.

(32:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think I met Sally when ourband played.
Yeah.
Yep.
Just by chance he was walking byand you gave him a card.
Yes.
It's crazy.
Yeah, it is utterly crazy.
Because he said in addition tothat, he said.
He said, well, you got anyvideo?
And I go, I'm gonna get somevideo from, I'm gonna, he said,
that's how we do it.
Now you gotta have a video or,or Kirby won't book you.

(32:54):
Okay.
Yeah.
So the, again, this crazy ideathat I would, you know, get the
ball rolling and some thingswould start to kind of add up.
So I come away from that concertwith a digital recording of the
band.
So I had a cassette available.
Yeah.
This is, this is before the, theproject with Dale actually.
Okay.
Um, where I really kind of wentinto the, the, the CD world.

(33:16):
I was the first Minnesota artistwho had a independent cd, only
because I knew somebody thatworked at Denon and knew the
guys in Georgia and they weren'tdoing short runs.
When CD technology came out.
If you didn't order 10,000, theywouldn't take you.
Okay.
I got a thousand of my first CDfrom Dale's place.
But to finish the story aboutO'Shaughnessy, I get a, a, a

(33:39):
recording and a video.
And Scott, I sent it, I followedup with him in September and he
said, we have to get you hookedup with the National College
Circuit and naca naca.
Yeah.
That's where, you know, KevinDay.
So I, I'm booking, I, I go dothe Wisconsin, um, showcase

(34:01):
uhhuh, which was its own regionat the time.
Yep.
And I walked out of there with30, I was like the hot, the hot
thing with my quartet and myacoustic guitar stuff, and I
didn't have time to do thecontracts.
I mean, could barely keep up.
Yeah.
And I had met Kevin at the UpperMidwest Yep.
Deal.
And him and Dan Butner and mewere hanging out like crazy.
You know, like Kevin Daley'scome up several times in this

(34:24):
podcast.
Yeah.
He was, he was our mutualbooking agent.
Yeah.
Uh, at a certain point.
And, uh, he's the guy thatintroduced Jen Gasner to Dave
Matthews Band.
So he's a listener.
He's, he's connected with allkinds of people already.
But anyway, he's a, he's a goodfriend of mine too.
Good guy.
Yeah.
So I, I mean, again, thesecoincidences, if you pay
attention to what's going onaround you, if you take slow

(34:46):
down enough to kind of seewhat's happening.
Just real quick, knack, is thatlike the national something of
Campus Activities Associationfor campus activities?
I was entertainer job.
How about that?
Entertainer of the year threetimes.
I know, like 2010 you were inthe Hall of Fame or something.
Yeah.
Yep, yep.
So look at that.
Well, how about you Johnny?

(35:07):
Clueless?
Are you in the NCA Hall of Fame?
I'm not in the Hall of Fame byany, but we did play a lot of
NCA shows.
Oh, what's great about NCA's,you go and showcase to this
whole area, this whole regionalcolleges, like he was saying,
and then they, all thesedifferent schools are there.
They see you and they go, ohyeah, we like, we like them.
And if you work with a newcollege, they can get a better
rate on you.
So you you basically blockbooking.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You block book you, so you book.

(35:29):
A, a little tour with a couplecollege shows and then you do
club warmup shows around.
That's how you, that's howtouring worked for us at least.
Yeah, yeah.
Yep.
You anchor your shows'cause youget hotel rooms.
Yep.
And you get paid better than a,a$50 warmup for somebody.
Yeah.
And so it's, it's a nice way to,to go about that in about half
of the time.
They would put you in the goodtheater too.
You'd be in the performing.

(35:49):
I mean, I did a lot of, of likestudent union.
Yeah.
I'll never forget playing thewrath skill in Madison.
If anybody, my daughter goes toMadison listening and knows what
the wrath skill.
Yeah, I think we might haveplayed there too.
Oh yeah, I bet you did.
Um.
You know, and that's just anoisy, um, student union bar.
Yeah.
They were still selling beer oncampus back then, you know, the
good old days.

(36:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we were in the, you were inthe Kirby Ballroom.
And so here's my little artifactfrom that.
It, you didn't even have cd dI'm holding up a, a CD from
1989.
Proton discs, inhale pink.
And I remember asked, Ispecifically remember asking,
who is this guy and why does hehave two CDs?
Because the one em was inhalepink and Exhale blue.

(36:31):
And she's like, I think the, theinhale pink is his solo stuff
and he's got a bigger band too.
It was real vague.
Yeah.
So I didn't know what I wasabout, but there was a big long
line and Kirby program.
They had decked it out.
It was really nice.
It was a nice quiet environment.
And I, and I'll let you, um,talk, but there you had another
song that you debuted, I thinkif I remember this correctly,

(36:53):
bows and arrows.
And I wanted to ask you about.
Some of us are Bose.
Yeah.
'cause you, I know that song.
You had a, it's a great storyalong with that.
So, any comments or, well, Jeff,we're, we're leading up to
Jeff's hyperventilating, thepicture of young Jeff in
college.
So excited doing the, the ChrisFarley thing again.
Meeting, meeting Billy in D Doyou remember when he say song?

(37:13):
Bows and arrows?
Remember that?
That was great.
What I, what I do remember isthat I always did stuff
backwards, like putting out twoCDs on the same day.
One of them called Inhale Pink,which was me, solo guitar.
Just one pink dot on a blackcover.
And exhale blue.
Five blue dots'cause fivemembers in the band on an all

(37:34):
black cover and two artists.
Completely.
Yeah.
Well, and, and it could beargued and there were a lot of,
you know, management peoplesaying, bill, you gotta pick one
or the other.
Mm-hmm.
You know, there's no way you canbe doing both.
And I just said, sorry, I'm.
I'm not letting you give mepermission.
Yeah, you're keeping youroptions open too.
It's good.
I'm, I'm gonna give myselfpermission to do this kind of

(37:55):
thing, but, um, we would always,we, I would write something and
we'd play it and get feedbackfrom the audience before we ever
went into the studio.
Oh.
And that's could be backwardstoo.
Totally.
You're do it though.
Supposed you're supposed to gorecord it in the studio and then
leak it out to the radio, youknow, and then chase it.
Um, and, and I, it's like how acomedian works.

(38:16):
They test out their stuff.
Yeah.
And if they get laughs thenthey're gonna, that that record
it.
That's right.
That's been the theme here.
I've been noticing with a lot ofdifferent things.
It's like, go out and test it.
Mark Sharon Brock talked aboutthat.
And then the Marx Brothers usedto, you know, tweet the line or
whatever, and then they learnedwhat was funny and then they'd
make the movie.
Right.
Can, can we talk about your, youhad a, a, an ailment that came

(38:38):
upon you mm-hmm.
And it sort of changed the waythat you conducted yourself, how
you played your music.
What, what was that like?
Um, so.
I, I did pursue an opportunitythat really focused me in on
acoustic guitar playing in themidst of doing these, you know,
putting out, so I, I, I doinhale Pink Solo XL Blue Band.

(39:01):
I did the Archery of GuitarSolo, the Bow and the Arrow
album with the band, and mm-hmm.
At that point, I, I was marriedand really enjoying everything
about the future of having kidsand everything else.
Mar married into a situationwith kids and an opportunity

(39:21):
came along from Narta Records.
I, I knew that I didn't takerejection very well, and I just
thought, you know what, if I domy job and I sell enough CDs on
my own, someone's gonna catchwind of it.
Mm-hmm.
And they called me Wow.
And said, we want you on our, onour label.

(39:41):
And I said, am.
Am I gonna do just guitar?
They said, well, that'snegotiation.
But yeah, pretty much we wantyou to do your instrumental
guitar and here's what it lookslike and here's what we would do
to get you out there.
And I'd already had a lot oftouring experience on the
college market like you didSteve.
And, um, so I knew how to getaround the country, but, and I

(40:02):
thought, you know, I have beendoing this a long time on my
own.
Maybe it's time to, to sign witha label.
And, and it was through thereleases I did on Ada that got
internationally distributed thatreally the reputation that I
still enjoy now as a upper tier,um, acoustic guitar player and

(40:25):
composer came from, from those,those albums.
Um, and um, and you toured allover the world?
Not quite yet, but all over thecountry, absolutely.
Oh, not yet.
But I mean, ultimately you endedup playing in Japan, Europe.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so, so I, I do the firstalbum with Ada and it goes

(40:48):
really well.
Finger Dams, right?
Yep.
Border, border Borders.
And, uh, Barnes and Noble wereboth cranking product like you
couldn't believe really?
I, I mean, yeah.
I played the, I played theborders at the bo the base of
Tower two in, in, at the WorldTrade Center, you know, really?
And, and the next guy coming onto sing after me was Tony

(41:09):
Bennett.
Oh, my was doing people would dobook, they would do, yeah.
Would high, high visibilityspots like that.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
So, um, so I, the first albumgoes great.
I record the second album, andon the way to the photo shoot,
get this on the way to the photoshoot for my second album.

(41:33):
I've got my, the leather pantson, I've got the leather boots
on.
It's as you would, it's, it'sFebruary and it's kinda sleeting
out.
And I had a little one, myyoungest blaze in, in a, you
know, in the car seat, you know,he's a little, little guy.
Mm-hmm.
Um, maybe, maybe he was two.

(41:53):
And I pull up in front of myparents'cause I'm gonna have
them watch him while I'm at theshoot.
Raha had flown some photographerin from New York or whatever.
And so I'm, I'm getting out ofthe car and it's, whoa.
It's kind of slippery here.
And I reach in to get him.
Oh no.
And, and as I'm lifting him upin the air, his boot kind of

(42:14):
catches on the little, you know,seatbelt deal.
And I started going backwards.
Oh no, no.
And I tucked and rolled and kepthim from hitting.
But when I hit the, the ice, itwas just pure ice on the
sidewalk and my hand, um, juttedinto a, a, a large block of ice.
And I, oh shit.
I immediately, oh no.

(42:34):
Dislocated my ring and middlefinger and.
I, I, I made sure he was okay.
And I looked at him and I go,that's not right.
And I pulled him, I pulled them.
They were, they were exactlybackward.
Like they were going 90 degreeangle.
Wrong way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm, I'm late now for thephoto shoot and oh God.

(42:55):
I'm like, you know what?
I think I'm going to the er.
Just, let's get this checkedout, man.
This is like, this is mylivelihood.
Yeah.
So I did get, make it to thephoto shoot and my, my manager
at the time was a guy outtaNashville, and at the er he
slipped me some little pill.
He goes, you'll be feeling finein about a half an hour.

(43:18):
I don't know what the hell itwas, but they weren't giving me
anything.
It's better finger pills.
Yeah.
Well, well, the ER doc saidwe're gonna need to cut that
wedding ring off.
Oh, oh boy.
Because you're gonna be swollenup.
And I, I wouldn't let'em do it.
And I, and I took the um, photo.
You can see it on the cover ofan, uh, my second album was

(43:42):
called Out of Hand Weird.
Uh, you can see how swollen myring finger is on my left hand,
and I'm, I'm posing with theguitar and trying to move, like
faking and them in plain, but itwas excruciating.
Absolutely.
And I'm trying to look happy andall this.
Right.

(44:03):
And the, the leather pants didlook pretty good, but, but so
Kev Kg would be excited to, to,to get to where we're headed
here.
Um, is that I did pt, um, andwas back to kinda moving pretty
well.
The label was anxious to get meback out on the road.
I was a, I was anxious to get onthe road, man.

(44:24):
This was the coolest record, oneof the coolest records I've ever
made, which basically was me andPrincess drummer Kirk Johnson,
um, playing.
Uh, music ahead of its, it wasacoustic guitar music still
ahead of its time kind of today.
Um, so I, I'm out on a, I do a50 city tour.
I think I was out with Adrianleg on that one and tucking

(44:46):
Patty, and then I was home for alittle while and, you know, like
my, my hand during those tours,it just always felt like outta
balance.
But I was able to keep ittogether through the second 50
city tour.
And then I, I had a couple ofbuddies say, man, if your hand's
feeling weird, you know, youshould just take some time off.

(45:08):
And I did.
And three months later, I, not,maybe not three months, it was
maybe two months later, I wentto pick up my guitar and start
to play some stuff.
And I, my pinky and third fingerhad curled up underneath the
neck.
And I'm like, well, this isfing.
That's not good.

(45:28):
This is completely weird.
What is going scary on?
I couldn't play any of my, Imean, I'm, I'm a university
educated guitarist.
You can play his scales at 16th.
No.
At 140 beats a minute.
You know, like just ripeverything.
Mm-hmm.
And here I'm going like, I can'teven play my own songs.
And that's it for part one ofour interview with Billy

(45:51):
McLaughlin.
Tune in to part two later thisweek.
And off we go.