July 2, 2025 • 48 mins
We visit with Professor Quentin Schulze, author of the best selling, "You'll Shoot Your Eye Out." He shares stories of Jean Shepherd, American storyteller, humorist known for the film, "A Christmas Story," which he narrated and co-scripted. He also wrote "The Great American Fourth of July and Other Disasters," which seemed appropriate for this time of year. Professor Shultze taught a class with Jean Shepherd on storytelling
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(00:11):
welcome to Kindness Chronicles,where we hope to inject the
world with the dose of theMinnesota kindness that it
desperately needs.
We got a very special guest,Jeff.
Our 55-year-old intern is here.
We've got Steve Brown.
Hi.
We have Michael Dempsey in thehouse.
Welcome back.
KG is managing the, uh, theaffairs at Canterbury Park this
(00:35):
evening.
But Jeff has been hard at work,as we have said before, Jeff
needs to find a job.
Yeah.
Uh, this early retirement, uh,is getting the best of us, but
Jeff found, uh, an actual famousguest for us.
Go.
How about that?
Yeah, I'm really excited aboutthis.
Um, and should I just.
Get into it, man.
(00:55):
Alright.
I prepared a very short intro,so just Of course.
Here.
Here we go.
Here.
Humor here.
Humor.
Humor.
Me here.
So here we go.
Today on the show, we're joinedby Dr.
Quentin Schultz, communicationsProfessor Emeritus at Kelvin
University, and an author who'swritten and edited over 30
books, written and or edited.
I first heard Quentin justbefore Christmas, last December
(01:17):
on Mike Rose podcast, where theydiscussed his latest book, the
Amazon Bestseller.
You'll Shoot Your Eye Out LifeLessons from the movie, A
Christmas Story.
It felt like a crash course inAmericana storytelling as
Quentin shared the story abouthow he was mentored by the great
Gene Shepherd.
A legendary radio and TVhumorist who wrote the original
(01:39):
story concept and the eventualscreenplay that that became the
film, A Christmas story.
So why talk about Christmas inJuly?
Well, back in the summer of1982, my adolescent friends and
I who loved getting intomischief involving fireworks and
blowing things up, bad boy saw agreat film on PBS.
(02:00):
Which I always think aboutaround this time of year, but,
but despite my best efforts insearching and sleuthing on the
internet, I could not rememberthe name or locate it.
That was until hearing Mike'sdiscussion with Quentin, where I
suddenly realized it wasShepherd who wrote the Great
American 4th of July and otherdisasters.
Based on his original short workthat he broadcast on the radio,
(02:24):
and that was entitled LudlowKissel and the Daggle Bomb that
struck Oh boy.
more to come.
I sure, I'm sure on that one.
Anyway, the movie.
Um, the more I exploredQuentin's work, the more I saw
overlap in the spirit of thispodcast, good storytelling,
everyday acts of kindness, andin the spirit of Jerry Seinfeld,
(02:46):
a good dose of observationalhumor.
So let's get into it.
Guys, will you please help me?
Welcome to the KindnessChronicles podcast, Dr.
Quentin Schultz.
Woo.
Yay.
All right.
This is enthusiasm, Quentin, bythe way.
This is no sound effects.
We're really into thisprofessor, if I may.
Yeah.
(03:06):
While he was doing that, it tookeverything that I had to not
interject my usual.
Is this a long story?
That was great.
That was great.
It was.
It was fantastic.
So great to have you on with us.
Thank you.
it's such a pleasure.
And, and by the way, that GreatAmerican 4th of July movie that
was on American Playhouse, onPBS, uh, is actually available
(03:29):
on YouTube.
So if you go to YouTube and lookup the Great American 4th of
July.
Um, uh, you'll find it, uh, andyou can watch it there.
So I just went on and took aquick look and somebody's
uploaded it, so there you go.
It's, I, I found a higherquality version than the one I
linked you to in my email.
And I'm gonna, I'll attach it toour posts, Steve.
(03:49):
Yeah.
On Facebook.
Great.
So look for it there.
Professor, if I may, I just haveone quick question for Jeff, as
I often do.
1982, you were watching PBSWell, here's what happened.
Um, my friend went, was itSesame Street?
Was it He was 12.
He was, no, he was 1282.
He was 12.
Okay.
It was, it was actually myfriend's mom and we were over at
(04:10):
his house and we were bored andwe're like, what do we do?
And she's like, you guys shouldwatch this show.
And I don't know if she knewGene Shepherd.
And I actually contacted himafter I found.
What the name of the movie wasand I haven't talked to him in a
long time.
We went, we were in bandtogether in scouts and stuff.
His name's Wayne.
I said, do you remember seeingthis?
And he's like, I do not, butit's what a treat to hear from
(04:31):
you.
And I said, please tell your momthanks for sharing this film.
'cause we laughed and got intoit and they had recorded it on
VCR.
And anyway, I'm like, all Iremembered from that was.
Fireworks going off on the topof a school and a, a drunk guy
walking around and a shoppingcart full of, uh, fireworks at
(04:52):
the, be like three distinctimages.
And I, I would search on thatand was just like racking my
brain.
And then when I finally, I.
I heard you Quentin talk aboutthis, this Americana
storyteller, Jean.
I'm like, I wonder if that washim.
And I put in shepherd and sureenough it popped up.
Once again.
Is this funny?
A long story, Jeff, let's hearfrom our guests.
It's long story.
(05:12):
Let's hear, let's hear from ourguests.
We've heard enough from you.
I just wanted to tee him upbecause I, I'm so appreciative
and excited that he's here, soyeah.
Oh, great.
It's great.
And, and thank you forcontacting me.
You know, the back interestingbackstory on that, there is a
scene where the fireworks thatthey're shooting off in a crazy
fashion because the movie ispartly about men not being able
(05:34):
to control themselves andfireworks is one way that they
get outta control.
And, and so they actually hadthese fireworks going all over
the place and they did it nextto what was supposedly the local
school.
Well, it was.
In fact they started it on fire.
Oh no.
With the fireworks.
And uh, so they, they had thefire department come and put it
(05:58):
out and all, it was wild.
It's funny, um, it, and I waswatching it a little bit, uh, in
the car the other day in my,there's some Oregon music.
It's a little annoying now'causeit's a early eighties.
Uh, rendition and it's kind ofadds to the quirkiness, but my
wife's like, yeah, I, can youturn that off?
So maybe it's a guy thing, butcheck it out and we'll, we'll
post it.
(06:18):
But, um, so how familiar are thethree of you, Michael?
John?
Steve, with the Christmas story.
Oh, are you kidding?
Very familiar.
Okay.
I probably watched it 300 times.
Yeah.
It's amazing how many, um, lilife lessons are interspersed in
the story.
And, and maybe I'll just letQuentin tell us the story about
(06:41):
how he met Gene.
Yeah, I can't wait.
And the origin story.
So.
I promise for Steve's sake tokeep the, my stories short.
This is John.
John says the one, John's therude guy, not me.
John is the one I'm ready tolisten.
Sir, please tell us.
He's the thug.
So, so what happened is I'm, I'ma new communication professor.
This is the way Shepherd wouldtell the story.
(07:02):
I'm a new communicationprofessor C and I'm going into
the classroom and I'm trying toteach about storytelling.
The students are bored, boredout of their minds.
I can't tell a decent story, andI say, what the heck am I gonna
do?
The textbook is terrible.
The whole thing is a mess.
And here I am, a communicationprofessor, making a fool of
myself.
So I look around to findsomebody who can teach me real
(07:24):
storytelling, who really knowshow to do it the best in the
country, or at least one of thethree best, and, and guy.
And I determined he's probablyone of the top three
storytellers in the US at thetime.
This was in the early eighties.
And that was Jean, JEAN.
(07:44):
Yep.
Shepherd, like shepherding theflock.
And so I tracked down his, hishome, uh, address, and sent him
a letter and said, uh, I'd liketo learn storytelling from you.
He'd never heard from aprofessor or an academic, I
think is the way he put it, thatwas interested in what he does.
(08:05):
And I said, well, can we dothis?
And he said, I don't see whynot.
Let's do it.
So, uh, we got together and uh,we actually co-taught a college
level course on, on his work asstorytelling.
And that's where I reallylearned what story the best
storytelling is all about.
I find, and I thoughteventually, someday I'd write a
(08:25):
book about my experiences withGene and about how he told
stories, what his philosophy ofstorytelling was, which fits in
perfectly with the KindnessChronicles, by the way.
And, uh, I never did it.
And then last year, uh, finallyI was at some, uh, group
somewhere, a party or something,and somebody said to.
And I said, well, I've beenthinking about writing, finally
(08:47):
writing this book about themovie, a Christmas story.
And they said, well, that's justa goofy movie.
There's nothing to it.
And I said, really?
And, and then I told them acouple of stories about the
stories in the movie and why thestories are the way they are,
because Gene Shepherd was reallya philosopher or a semi
theologian in a philosophy oflife.
(09:07):
And that's what the movie's allabout.
And, and when I told thesepeople, they were stunned.
Uh, they, they said they'd neversee it same way again.
So I wrote the book calledYou'll Shoot Your Eye Out, which
is the most popular right linefrom the movie.
Yeah.
And, uh, and so that, that'swhat happened on that.
I finally ended up writing thebook that I thought maybe I
(09:29):
would write 30 years ago orsomething.
view of storytelling was what I.
Compassionate storytelling.
Love it.
He wanted to tell stories thatwould reveal our weaknesses, our
foibles, uh, the nuttiness thatis this thing called being
(09:53):
human.
Uh, but would do it in a waythat we would all look at it and
say, boy, that's the way it is.
And not look at it and say, oh,other people are down.
Other people and the kindness,that's a humble humor, which is
where the word humor comes from.
(10:13):
And, uh, it, it helps us seeourselves more clearly.
And that's what Gene did in allof his storytelling.
He was a compassionatestoryteller.
And then along the way, allkinds of other people who
listened to him on a late nightradio show he had in New York,
which was popular across coastat night.
(10:35):
Learned storytelling from him,listening to him again and
again.
And, uh, many interesting peopleinvolved in that.
Uh, Seinfeld is one of those,uh, uh, pen Gillette.
In fact, pen Gillette says helearned about humor from
listening to Gene at night.
And Jerry Seinfeld says, he toldme he learned his entire comedic
(10:58):
sensibility from Gene Shepherd.
Wow.
So there are tremendousinfluences here.
But it's really interesting'cause you watch the movie,
let's say a Christmas story,that's the most popular movie in
America now seen by over 50million adults annually.
And you, you don't get the sensethat we're making fun of people,
but rather we're seeingourselves the way we really are.
(11:20):
Yeah.
Steve and I are here and weactually met in a communication
class in college, believe it ornot, our under undergraduate.
A long time ago.
Yeah.
It was a, it was acommunications class.
That's right.
You were a communication.
What school was it at?
It was in, uh, St.
Cloud, Minnesota, St.
Cloud State University.
It would've been 89, probablyaround that time.
(11:40):
Yep.
It's very much the Ivy League ofCentral Minnesota.
Okay.
Well we, we call it the Harvardof Easterns County.
It's the Harvard of EasternsCounty.
But my question for you is, um,back up a little bit, why were
you a communications professor?
What was it about communicationsthat drew you in Yeah.
(12:02):
And led you to understanding thepower of storytelling?
Well, two aspects to this.
Let say St.
Cloud's a good school.
Thank you.
One of my former students CoolHus, right?
Teaches there.
Oh, really?
Oh, cool.
Yeah.
It, it's not the notoriety ofthe status of a school that
makes it good.
It's the quality of the faculty.
(12:23):
There you go.
That Any, any, yeah.
So at any rate, what happened isI grew up in Chicago and I grew
up in a very hellish situation.
My father was an alcoholic.
My mother was a paranoidschizophrenic.
And, uh, they were incapable ofraising me, certainly not able
to raise me well or nurture me.
(12:43):
And so I went inside myself andI had all kinds of emotional
problems that have affected mefor my life.
Um, and I'm a lifelong suffererof anxiety and depression.
From that, I've had a lot oftherapy and all.
I don't want you to feel toosorry for me.
It's okay.
But what happened was, uh,through, through all of that, I
ended up living with my mother.
(13:06):
They were divorced and my fatherdied and, and I lived with my
mother in a trailer.
We were white trailer trash.
We had no money.
My mother, uh, was talking topeople that didn't exist and she
couldn't hold a job.
She never got a driver'slicense.
And so I'm just trying tosurvive and I'm, I'm doing a lot
of reading and trying to figureout what the world is about
(13:28):
through the stories that I wouldread.
And then I, I got into highschool and I was a loner there
too.
But then when it came time to goto college, I thought I would
major in engineering because Ilike technical stuff.
I'm a ham radio operator.
Gene Shepherd was a ham radiooperator.
That's how I got his homeaddress originally, and through
the, uh, federal CommunicationsCommission.
(13:51):
So at any rate, I I, I got theschool and I was gonna study
engineering, and I thought, youknow, what I really need is to
figure out how to communicatewith people.
I need to come out of my shell.
And, uh, so I started takingsome communication courses and I
found it fascinating.
And then, then I learned alongthe way too, that the most
powerful form of humanexpression is story.
(14:15):
If you can tell a story and, andtell it, well, you can influence
people, you can get theirattention, you can persuade
them.
Storytelling is so, soimportant.
So in my book, you'll shoot youreye out.
What what I try to do is notjust explain how Shepherd told
his stories, but also how youcan be a storyteller too, and
(14:36):
how I learn these things fromhim.
Because the way we reallyconnect with each other is by
hearing each other's stories.
You know, as part of theKindness Chronicles, you could
say we take on empathy for otherpeople.
When we hear their stories.
So I learned that in college andthen I had some professors that
said to me, Hey, you gotta, yougotta keep going and go to grad
(14:59):
school.
And I said, what for?
I don't want a graduate degree.
You know, I, I was thinking ofworking in a radio and, and at
any rate, they convinced me todo it.
And so I ended up getting amaster's degree in a PhD.
Wow.
You made, you made the rightchoice.
By the way, if you know how muchradio guys make.
Yeah.
Right.
Well, I still love radio and,and I, I, you know, I have some
(15:22):
podcasts and all too, but for,for me, communication was
learning how to be fully humanin a way that I might flourish
in my relationships with otherpeople, because all of our
relationships are formed ordeformed through communic well.
(15:42):
You can develop somerelationships and that's what's
gonna make life most worthwhile.
Professor, I have to admit thatof all the guests that we've
ever had on, it's very difficultfor us not to interrupt our
guests.
So I want to apologize inadvance, especially for myself.
But this topic is just somesmerizing to me.
(16:06):
And you know, Jeff, if youcontinue to bring guests like
this, we may turn you from anintern to a senior intern
sometime here in the future.
But, uh, all kidding aside, I I,I'd love to go back to the, to
the connection with GeneShepherd.
You know, you, it sounds likeyou virtually stalked him to
get.
Connected to him, but you know,tell us how the class that you
(16:28):
taught with him came together.
'cause I mean, not everybody canjust call up a Gene Shepherd and
say, Hey, let's teach a classtogether.
That had to have taken some, uh,some guts or other things.
Yeah.
I knew, I knew Gene was ornery.
I had read some Oh really?
Series with him.
Heard some, heard him on.
Yeah, he was kind of an ornerycharacter, so, uh, and sometimes
(16:49):
he used pretty foul language.
I thought, boy, what am Igetting myself into?
I'm a fairly new professor at anew school.
Am I gonna get fired?
So I I, I asked one of mycolleagues who had been there a
long time to, to co-teach thecourse too, to, to help me along
if I got into trouble.
And, uh, so he came in and weput together a syllabus.
(17:10):
And I, which I ran by Gene,which included elements from all
of his different work, from hisbooks, his short stories, his TV
shows, his radio shows, hisstage performances.
And I, we also invited him to doa stage performance at the
school, which he did one night.
(17:30):
Uh, we co-sponsored it with thelocal PBS affiliate, and he, he
could tell one of his stories.
And 45 minutes, and he performedall of the characters in the
story with no props other thanhis body.
Oh my god.
The most amazing thing to see.
So how did it go?
Well, uh, the, the, the way heworked was to sit on the desk
(17:55):
and to hold court and students,him questions in.
We had viewed, you know, in theprevious days or read, we read a
number of his novels and uh, andthen he would, he was off and
running and he was tellingstories.
(18:17):
So they would say, why did youhave such and such a character
in such and such a movie orwhatever?
Or, what's the deal with thiskid wanting a red writer PB
rifle?
You know, did you going, what's.
And then he would go on andexplain why that was in there.
You, so it was, he was kind ofmonolog in that sense.
(18:39):
You, uh, shared a story withMike Rowe about how at some
point, you must have beendeveloping a friendship with him
at this point, but, uh, youpulled him aside and said, you
know, you're a Calvinist.
Storyteller.
Yeah.
And, and I don't know if thatwas in person or part of your,
uh, your Yeah.
In person.
Go ahead and share that.
I, because if people don't knowwhat that means, I thought it
(19:01):
was pretty funny.
Can I just ask real quick?
Yeah.
Interesting year.
What year was it that you firstmet Gene Shepherd?
Uh, it was in the earlyeighties.
The first time we talked thecourse was, uh, I think it was
January of 86, if I remember.
So it was after the, was.
Yeah, it was after the movie,shortly after.
(19:22):
We also did a pre, pre, wellmaybe I, it was before that too,
because I remember we also did apreview of that movie and then
he, he did something he rarelywould do, and that is he opened
it up for questions afterwards.
Oh wow.
Neat.
And, uh, kind of a focus groupand.
(19:47):
So, uh, well, let's just saythat if people said things that
were not kind about the movie,he had no qualms about, uh,
telling them why they werewrong.
He, he had a very, like a lot ofof great comedians, he had a
very big ego and very lowself-esteem.
(20:07):
So I, I got to know him, uh,during the eighties and into the
nineties the last time for.
I would've 96 because I think hepassed in 99.
Yeah, he passed in 99.
I think.
His wife, Lee, Lee Brown, whoactually sings the song in the
(20:30):
Great American 4th of July andother, uh, disasters.
The, the, there's a song inthere, the Ballad of Ludlow
Kissel, and, uh, his wife singsthat.
Wow.
Well, I interrupted, uh, Jeff'squestion, but I just, I wanted
to have an understanding ofabout what timeframe this was.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's a timeframe.
(20:50):
And he, he was already, well,once a Christmas story came out,
he was pretty well known Sure.
For that movie.
But the movie bombed when itcame out in 83, which is
shocking.
Yeah.
And then, uh, and then laterwith the VC.
I read a lot of his stuff,including an early book that he
did, which was a collection ofstories by a Chicago newspaper
(21:14):
storyteller by the name ofGeorge, A a DE, and in that book
more than anywhere else, he thatI knew at the time.
Uh, there are two kinds ofhumorists in the world.
(21:35):
He said there are those thatmake jokes about people, uh uh,
because they think that it willhelp people improve their lot in
life.
And he called thosefundamentalist preachers.
Okay?
Yep.
And then he said there are otherkinds of people who make jokes.
(21:57):
By putting people down becausethey don't like them, they don't
like what they do or whatever.
And he, he said, um, his humoris of the kind where he believes
that nobody's perfect.
Everybody's got all kinds ofweaknesses and does things they
shouldn't.
And, but that's the way we allare and we're all in this
(22:19):
together.
And so we need to do the best wecan.
And, and Calvinism has within ita doctrine about total
depravity, that everybody'sdepraved.
And anytime we act in ways thatare kind or good, it's because
of grace.
So I said to Gene one day, Isaid, gene, really?
You are a kind of secularCalvinist.
(22:41):
Oh my.
And, and he agreed with thatimmediately.
Wow.
Professor.
Yeah.
Professor, I'm curious, uh, youbeing, um, a PhD in
communication and referencingthese storytellers.
We, we had our own GarrisonKeeler here in St.
(23:02):
Paul, who was one heck of astoryteller as well.
We still is also a professor.
Yes.
Still is.
I know what I, I, I mean, wereyou familiar with his work as
well?
You were mentioning the topthree storytellers and mm-hmm.
All I could think of was.
Uh, Garrison Keeler because heis, he's local.
I'm sort of curious if you haveany connection with Garrison.
(23:23):
Yeah, I know his work prettywell and I read actually some
academic articles that reviewand critique his, explain his
work.
Uh, I have never met him.
Uh, I'm trying to think now.
I know.
In fact, I'd never been at oneof his performances in person,
although I used to listen tothem on the radio some, and he
had this storytelling componentin there.
(23:46):
Where he would talk about LakeWobegon.
And then he Yes, wrote aboutthat.
Of course, in his books and all,I think his approach to
storytelling, this compassionatestorytelling or compassionate
humor, uh, was very close toGene.
What Gene did, uh, it never hadin my estimation the depth of
(24:08):
theme or message in it that Jeandid.
If you look at book.
You'll shoot your eye out, youwill be blown away by the how
deep.
Gene thought about all of thestories that he told, what they
said about life.
Uh, his, all of his storytellingwas really parables that worked
(24:31):
on two levels.
The one level was everyday life,and this is sort of the way it
is, and we laugh about it andthere's some nostalgia in it
with him, but then there's alsoa message there.
And this whole thing with the BBrifle, the Red Rider BB rifle
that Ralphie wants, uh, came outof shepherd's view of what was
(24:52):
happening during the Cold War.
And he was very worried thatmen, men controlled the weapons,
uh, might get into it and shooteach other with weapons during
the Cold War, particularly with.
Mass destruction.
So Dr.
The nuclear stuff that wasdeveloping at the time, and,
(25:15):
and, and he and Gene felt that,uh, this is what happens to men.
They become men.
He said, are Incurably romantic?
That's right.
They fall in love with thingsthey have to.
It's a special prize.
(25:36):
So, Dr.
Schultz, um, what a surprise.
Can, should I, yeah.
And then so should I, I, I, uh,I, can I just connect on that?
'cause I want to, I I, what wasso fun for me to hear in that
interview is clearly Mike Roweis like an expert on a Christmas
story and he was bringing stuffup and the two of you were
riffing and you were connectingall the dots.
(25:56):
And I started kind of thinkingabout my friends and.
Life and, and even just theseguys and, and observations with
my wife, uh, and my family.
I've got two daughters, so likethere's 20 chapters here with
different, um, lessons in, um,you'll shoot your eye out.
But for example, um, technology,you talked about how guys love
(26:19):
technology and that wholeconnection with the coal fired
stove, that's got the clinkerscoming.
But then we have this roadcaster pro, um, recording
device, which I am super excitedabout.
That's my piece of technology.
And then my, a friend of minewho's not on this podcast, but
he's all, all the time we'redealing with his cars and
they're half the time neverrunning.
(26:41):
And, um.
And, and that was just a, afunny connection about how we
are into our things and how thewomen in, uh, Jean's life were
kind of the heroes.
And, um, the whole leg lamppiece with where that was placed
and all that.
So I'm just gonna tee you upthere, but, uh, any comments on.
(27:03):
Cars and technology and oh, andby the way, one other quick
connection.
Just recently in the news youbrought up the Cold War I, and
we're not supposed to getpolitical, but when they
announced about the recentbombing.
You had brought up about how,um, who was the bully on, on a
Christmas story?
(27:23):
It was, uh, far Scotts Scott.
Scott Farkis.
Yeah.
So, and Dr.
Gill Scott.
Scott was named after the ScudMissile Farkis.
Uh, there's a connection there.
I'll let you fill the gaps in,but I Couldn't't help but notice
President Trump and then he hadboth of his, or all three of his
guys behind him kind of showingus.
A, a, a stance of power after wehad, we had done.
(27:45):
And I had thought of you andinstantly, so Go ahead.
Yeah, yeah.
I, I talked about that when Iwas on Rose Show.
That was kind of funny becausethe book came out last fall.
And then the, uh, the publicistasked me for a list of people
who might be interested ininterviewing me about it.
And I had seen a show somewherewith Mike Rowe where there was a
(28:08):
leg lamp.
Like there is in the movie, inthe background, he has it in the
background.
And so if you watch his podcast,he has it in the background.
And you, you have your, on thatparticular show, your publicist
called him for that reason, Ithink.
Yeah.
Right.
So I, I said to the publicist inChicago, I said, yeah, you might
contact him.
So she calls me back a few hourslater and said, done deal.
(28:28):
You want you on a plane rightaway.
I said, what the heck, uh, isthat all about?
And she said, well.
He's a big Gene Shepherd fan.
In fact, he learned a lot ofwhat he does in storytelling
from listening to Gene on theradio in New York or when Roe
was living in Philadelphia.
But you could pick up thestation WA a b, C there.
(28:48):
So the, the tentacles of ofgene's impact are, are just
amazing.
So yeah, you got the men.
Going back to the men thing, welove things.
We're more interested in things.
Women are more interested inrelationships world.
Are always bailing men outproblems that men create because
(29:08):
they think they can do more withthings than they really can.
And so, and that plays out withthe car that's breaking down and
gets a flat tire.
And the furnace, he puts a tirein the furnace put on there,
doesn't have any thread left.
It was only a tire in theacademic sense.
And he got the furnacedownstairs when he goes down to
the furnace because the clunkershit runs downstairs and swearing
(29:34):
and.
That's the old man going down tomeet the devil at the seventh
level of Dante's Inferno.
And, and, and he's gonna see thevery technology that other men
created and he's not gonna beable to control it because
that's what happens.
(29:54):
Men create technologies and theycan't keep them under control,
and then they come back and theybite us.
Uh, yeah.
So all of that is in, in themovie.
I mean, it's just theme aftertheme like that, that are, are
stunning.
Wow.
So it's safe to say that he's adeeper thinker than we are.
Yeah.
Generally speaking.
(30:16):
No doubt about that.
Well, I, I think, yeah.
I mean, you talk about having aPhD piled higher or deep or
whatever.
He, he, he did not have a lot ofrespect for people with high
level degrees, especially peoplewho were literature people.
Who thought his books were juststories about his own growing up
(30:36):
and didn't see, couldn't pickout the messages in them, the
themes and all.
That's interesting.
And I think, uh, you know, I, hedid, he, I think he had two, if
I remember right, two honoraryPhDs, one from Indiana
University, which he had aboutone semester worth of courses
at, including a writing coursethat he.
(30:57):
A c plus on, which is the samegrade that Ralphie gets.
I did.
I love that.
Yeah, that's great.
His theme, the movie.
That's great.
Professor, I, I, first of all,what a pleasure to have you on
the podcast.
Um, you definitely raised the IQabout 200 points and I just love
how deep you went with, uh, thebook.
(31:19):
And I'll look forward to lookingat the book, reading the book,
but I.
Oh, when Jeff said you weregonna be on, I went and, uh,
Googled you and I looked at somevideos and we always reference a
movie or two on the podcast.
I was listening to you do sevenminutes on how to eliminate, um,
(31:40):
and like, and then I watchedyour video about be in service
to an audience and I loved itand I'm watching you and all I
can think about is Dickie Fox.
On Jerry McGuire.
Yeah, I love that.
And Jerry McGuire.
Yeah.
That always cuts to a guy who'sgiving sort of the advice to
Jerry McGuire.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(32:00):
And I was li and now as I listento you, his old agent Yeah,
yeah, his old agent.
Yeah.
And I'm listening to you now,and you just, you, it resonates
with wisdom and knowledge andhumor and I, I just thank you so
much for being a part of the uh,po.
And Jeff, thanks for bringingthis guy on.
I, I also have a question or ofkind a comment.
(32:21):
So I love that movie as well.
I think most people do.
It's part of our Christmas time.
Even the, the voice.
That's Jean's voice, right?
It is.
That's his narration.
Yeah.
Um, that voice is reallysynonymous with, uh, uh,
Christmas, traditionalChristmas.
Yes.
And, and I, I had no idea thatit went that deep.
Now I'll watch it differently,and I wanna read the book as
well, but I wanna say somethingabout the movie.
(32:42):
The movie is, you know, about afamily, what They're in the
forties or late forties.
Okay.
It's not fifties yet, right?
Well, it kind of, it, I'll letQuentin expand on this'cause
this is that expressionismthing, if I got that word right.
But it, he never wanted it toreally be pinpointed.
Right.
Okay, Quentin.
Well, that's what I'll, that'swhat I wanted.
(33:04):
Go ahead.
It's about 1940, but you can'tpigeonholed to one year.
Okay.
Well that's what's interestingabout it is because it's
nostalgic.
But my generation wasn't fromthe forties and know that.
But somehow now it's, it hassuch a, it, it's very timeless
might because the vines, the,the, the thinking goes so deep.
Maybe it's there and we don'treally see it.
(33:25):
But now it also is traditionbecause it's on tv on TBS for,
you know, these marathons.
It's now the tradition is thatthat movie's on.
Right.
And you feel that movie everyseason and it's, it's pretty
fascinating.
And not only that, it, it'sdelightful.
It's sweet and it's funny and itis, it's, um.
They're, they're all sort ofmaking f you're laughing at all
(33:45):
the characters, um, Follies,right.
And, and their interactions.
And it's very sweet.
But it's, it's a movie aboutnoia.
Yeah.
And if it works well, yeah, ifit works well, Jean would say to
me.
People are gonna see themselvesin it even if they didn't grow
up in that period.
Yep.
So well done.
Yeah.
That was something that, um,I've been learning by listening
(34:07):
to Mike Rowe.
'cause he's all about, how do Irelate this to a larger
audience?
What's that?
And he used a German term.
Welch Mez or something likethat.
But the two of you were goingback and forth about nostalgia
and he brought up the Smucker's,uh, voiceover guy with the name
like Smuckers.
It has to be good.
(34:27):
And it just kind of brought outeverybody loved hearing that
voice and then the Wonder Yearsthat was a, a, a spinoff and
they kind of copied his ideaand, but you talked about
mendacity and relatability, andthat's where.
I wanna make the connection withthe Jerry Seinfeld thing because
these guys are constantlyquoting Jerry Seinfeld on this
podcast, and I don't know ifthey know what they're doing,
(34:50):
but it's that whole, you shareda story about him finding
earplugs on a, or you, you foundsome earplugs on a radio, on a
airplane ride.
And it, it said something like,in case of misuse, call this
number.
Right.
And he would, he would grab ontosomething like that and then
take it to the nth degree andmake it funny.
And so, right.
I see John John's humor doingthat.
(35:12):
He'll pick things up on LinkedInor something will bug him and
he'll kind of rant about it.
And I just like, anyway, I'lllet you go now.
Yeah, that's funny.
The, gee, you know what I saidon that more than I do, you
know, I'm just wondering ifpeople should go listen to that
part.
Geez, Jeff, about your Seinfeldconnection.
(35:35):
Yeah.
Okay.
I'll talk about Seinfeldconnection.
And one thing, let me just saythat what happened with Mike
there, because see, I didn'tknow in advance that so much
Gene listening.
I met him just before we weregonna record, and then we sat
down together and once westarted talking, I thought, holy
(35:57):
smokes, uh, this guy has learneda lot about storytelling from
someone that I learnedstorytelling directly from, and
we're gonna have a great timetogether.
And we did.
Yeah.
So he, I think he was right ininviting me in there because it
was like we were friends we hadnever met before.
Kind of interesting.
(36:18):
So about Seinfeld?
Well, um, if Gene Shepherd wasright, that there are two kinds
of humor, the kind of humor thatyou put people down because it
makes you better, builds you up,okay.
And the other kind of where you,you love the subject, love the
(36:39):
people, you're making fun ofthem in a way that helps us see
ourselves the way we really are.
So we're not laughing at people,we're laughing with them.
Yep.
That's the distinction that Genemade.
So when I met Jerry, I said tohim that that was what Gene
(37:00):
taught me, those two kinds ofhumor.
And Jerry said, it's exactlyright.
He said, and then he saidsomething along the lines that
he spent his whole comediccareer trying to do.
The type of humor.
Humor where it's based on thingsthat happen in everyday life and
it helps us see ourselvesthrough those things and the
(37:25):
things that we do with thosethings.
And that, and, and he saidthat's what the Seinfeld TV show
was about.
Which is kind of funny becausepeople would always say it's a
show about nothing.
When in fact, from thisstandpoint of comedy, it was a
show about everything.
Life.
Yeah.
And the way life is.
It was meant that way.
(37:46):
He got that, uh, he said, Iquote Jerry Seinfeld on this.
He says he learned his entirecomedic sensibility from Gene.
She, wow.
He even named his Shepherd,didn't he?
Wow.
Wow.
One last, or, uh, just a quick,I wanted to make sure I got this
in before we, um, I have to, uh,um, conclude, but I want just,
(38:11):
this is my last question, but,or last comment.
It must, I, I think I heard youtoward the end of that podcast
episode where you had heard aninterviewer.
Talking about, or, uh, it was areporter in, in Chicago who said
he remembered Gene saying, yeah,some backwater professor one
(38:33):
time, uh, like analyzed mystorytelling and that made me
feel like really good.
And he, he.
My sense was he was a troubledsoul, a little bit based on just
what I learned from you.
Yep.
And it was super talented.
Big ego, but maybe, um, uh, low,uh, self-esteem.
There you go.
(38:54):
And that, I just wanted to saythat that was very nice of you
to reach out and, and what agreat lesson to cold call or
cold email or cold, uh, write aletter, snail mail and, and say,
Hey, I, I admire your work.
Sincerely, and I would loveYeah, and, and just that, that
would, and look at now we'retalking about it and so it's, I
just wanted to say thank you foranswering my email and meeting
(39:18):
my friends here.
And so anyway, can I just addwhat I find Great.
What I find most unique aboutthis is, you know, there are a
lot of professors out there thatwill study the works of
Shakespeare and or they'll studythe study the works of Mark
Twain.
You actually are studyingsomebody that you could actually
talk to, somebody that you couldconverse with and kind of peel
(39:40):
the onion, so to speak.
Yeah.
To find out where he was goingwith this stuff instead of
analyzing it and kind of, uh,assessing it according to your
sensibilities.
Yeah.
You're actually getting to askthe guy.
I mean, what a uniqueexperience.
Yeah.
My God.
Yeah.
Very cool.
Well, I, I, yeah.
I just, yeah, go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Let me just say too and unusual,you know, that.
(40:02):
Yes.
'cause generally if it's awriter or filmmaker, whatever,
they don't necessarily wannatalk to you about what they do.
But I think he was interested inme appealing to him to learn
storytelling from him and teachwith him because it, it really
helped him.
(40:24):
Some good self-esteem, you know?
Yeah.
Some good strokes.
And, and what happened on that,and I mentioned it, I think the
only place I've ever mentionedit is in that Mike Robe task
where he went so long, but the,uh, a guy I know is doing a
documentary on Gene Shepherd andhe's been working on it for
about 15 years or so, and heinterviewed one of Gene's
(40:47):
producers.
We first talked about related to4th of July, um, the, um, the
Great American 4th of July, the,uh, and so at any rate, he went
to interview this guy and thenhe, the, the documentarian
contacted me after thatinterview and he said, I, I'm
(41:10):
putting a video clip.
And I went to look at this videoclip and it's this producer in
Boston talking about the factthe gene was so grateful that
there was this backwaterprofessor Oh, wow.
From Grand Rapids, Michigan,who, who, uh, took a, an
(41:31):
interest in his work and taughta whole course on his work.
And I thought, holy smokes, youknow, that's fabulous.
After Jean died and all.
Every one of us every day justencourage somebody who's doing
something well, no matter howmenial it seems to be someone in
(41:52):
a restaurant or someone's orwhatever it is, just anybody out
there.
And sometimes the people thatare most well known are the ones
that most need it.
Yeah.
Uh, it's, you know, that's, itwould make a different world, it
would be a world of much morekindness to put it in your
terms.
There we go.
Absolutely.
We, we spend a lot of timeaddressing the importance of
(42:14):
the, uh, the hormone oxytocinand just, you know, when you do
those things, you know, you feelgood.
It's a bonding hormone.
Yeah.
When you fix those things, it'sa bonding hormone.
And we also right, invite ourlisteners to practice what we
call Oxy to Sunday, which is onSunday, spend some time looking
(42:34):
at, you know, uh, manipulateyour algorithms, your social
media algorithms.
And I would suggest that thisSunday for Oxy to Sunday, we
take a look at, uh, theprofessor's work and we Yeah.
Delve into some Gene Shepherdlove, because let's do it.
I mean, that to me just.
Uh, it just fills me, you know,it fills me up.
(42:54):
Yep.
Um, I also wanna say.
That, uh, we are so gratefulthat you joined us.
In fact, Jeff was on the vergeof hyperventilation when he came
downstairs here, and, and I'mnot kidding, I was hoping that
we weren't gonna have to breakout the paddles.
He's done a lot more researchthan he was able to get to.
It's okay.
But we're glad you had a chanceto talk with us.
(43:14):
This is great.
Yeah.
And, uh, uh, again, we are sograteful for your time.
And, uh, Jeff, you wrap this oneup because we know.
He literally, there's a peestain on the front of his pants.
I was just, all, all I'll say isthank you, uh, Dr.
Schultz.
Um, if you want a good dose ofoxytocin, I.
Or read that book, you'll shootyour eye out.
(43:36):
Absolutely.
And thanks for being my virtualcommunications professor as I
embrace this new, uh, what did Icall it?
Uh, it was show, show show Shin,um, uh, beginners Mindset.
Oh, yeah.
Show.
We talked about that a fewepisodes back.
So I'm, I'm doing a career pivotas you, as we talked about, but
thanks so much for this, Dr.
(43:56):
Schultz.
It's my pleasure.
And listen, guys, get a copy ofmy book.
Seriously.
We're getting it.
We're getting it.
And, and let's, let's do a showjust before Christmas.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I would love that.
Follow up.
Follow up.
Goosebumps.
I got goosebumps.
Head to toe.
Let's do it.
Let's do it.
Well again, thank you very muchand we always like to wrap it up
by saying, off we go.
(44:42):
What a perfectly terrible.
T.
(45:20):
What a perfect terrible withillness and time here at home
perfectly.
(45:51):
I would confess such aperfectly, perfectly, perfectly.
(46:19):
Worst possible way.
Spent 365 days strife in thisperfectly terrible, simply
(46:39):
terrible, right.
And pain.
(47:17):
Face mask, LXi, glass suspicion.
Keep sex with space working.
No income, no paper, no movies,no sports, no.
(47:51):
Perfectly terrible year.
Thank God that a new one ishere.
It's hard to believe.
It all came to be this perfectlyterrible year.
(48:18):
Perfectly terrible.
welcome to Kindness Chronicles,where we hope to inject the
world with the dose of theMinnesota kindness that it
desperately needs.
We got a very special guest,Jeff.
Our 55-year-old intern is here.
We've got Steve Brown.
Hi.
We have Michael Dempsey in thehouse.
Welcome back.
KG is managing the, uh, theaffairs at Canterbury Park this
(00:35):
evening.
But Jeff has been hard at work,as we have said before, Jeff
needs to find a job.
Yeah.
Uh, this early retirement, uh,is getting the best of us, but
Jeff found, uh, an actual famousguest for us.
Go.
How about that?
Yeah, I'm really excited aboutthis.
Um, and should I just.
Get into it, man.
(00:55):
Alright.
I prepared a very short intro,so just Of course.
Here.
Here we go.
Here.
Humor here.
Humor.
Humor.
Me here.
So here we go.
Today on the show, we're joinedby Dr.
Quentin Schultz, communicationsProfessor Emeritus at Kelvin
University, and an author who'swritten and edited over 30
books, written and or edited.
I first heard Quentin justbefore Christmas, last December
(01:17):
on Mike Rose podcast, where theydiscussed his latest book, the
Amazon Bestseller.
You'll Shoot Your Eye Out LifeLessons from the movie, A
Christmas Story.
It felt like a crash course inAmericana storytelling as
Quentin shared the story abouthow he was mentored by the great
Gene Shepherd.
A legendary radio and TVhumorist who wrote the original
(01:39):
story concept and the eventualscreenplay that that became the
film, A Christmas story.
So why talk about Christmas inJuly?
Well, back in the summer of1982, my adolescent friends and
I who loved getting intomischief involving fireworks and
blowing things up, bad boy saw agreat film on PBS.
(02:00):
Which I always think aboutaround this time of year, but,
but despite my best efforts insearching and sleuthing on the
internet, I could not rememberthe name or locate it.
That was until hearing Mike'sdiscussion with Quentin, where I
suddenly realized it wasShepherd who wrote the Great
American 4th of July and otherdisasters.
Based on his original short workthat he broadcast on the radio,
(02:24):
and that was entitled LudlowKissel and the Daggle Bomb that
struck Oh boy.
more to come.
I sure, I'm sure on that one.
Anyway, the movie.
Um, the more I exploredQuentin's work, the more I saw
overlap in the spirit of thispodcast, good storytelling,
everyday acts of kindness, andin the spirit of Jerry Seinfeld,
(02:46):
a good dose of observationalhumor.
So let's get into it.
Guys, will you please help me?
Welcome to the KindnessChronicles podcast, Dr.
Quentin Schultz.
Woo.
Yay.
All right.
This is enthusiasm, Quentin, bythe way.
This is no sound effects.
We're really into thisprofessor, if I may.
Yeah.
(03:06):
While he was doing that, it tookeverything that I had to not
interject my usual.
Is this a long story?
That was great.
That was great.
It was.
It was fantastic.
So great to have you on with us.
Thank you.
it's such a pleasure.
And, and by the way, that GreatAmerican 4th of July movie that
was on American Playhouse, onPBS, uh, is actually available
(03:29):
on YouTube.
So if you go to YouTube and lookup the Great American 4th of
July.
Um, uh, you'll find it, uh, andyou can watch it there.
So I just went on and took aquick look and somebody's
uploaded it, so there you go.
It's, I, I found a higherquality version than the one I
linked you to in my email.
And I'm gonna, I'll attach it toour posts, Steve.
(03:49):
Yeah.
On Facebook.
Great.
So look for it there.
Professor, if I may, I just haveone quick question for Jeff, as
I often do.
1982, you were watching PBSWell, here's what happened.
Um, my friend went, was itSesame Street?
Was it He was 12.
He was, no, he was 1282.
He was 12.
Okay.
It was, it was actually myfriend's mom and we were over at
(04:10):
his house and we were bored andwe're like, what do we do?
And she's like, you guys shouldwatch this show.
And I don't know if she knewGene Shepherd.
And I actually contacted himafter I found.
What the name of the movie wasand I haven't talked to him in a
long time.
We went, we were in bandtogether in scouts and stuff.
His name's Wayne.
I said, do you remember seeingthis?
And he's like, I do not, butit's what a treat to hear from
(04:31):
you.
And I said, please tell your momthanks for sharing this film.
'cause we laughed and got intoit and they had recorded it on
VCR.
And anyway, I'm like, all Iremembered from that was.
Fireworks going off on the topof a school and a, a drunk guy
walking around and a shoppingcart full of, uh, fireworks at
(04:52):
the, be like three distinctimages.
And I, I would search on thatand was just like racking my
brain.
And then when I finally, I.
I heard you Quentin talk aboutthis, this Americana
storyteller, Jean.
I'm like, I wonder if that washim.
And I put in shepherd and sureenough it popped up.
Once again.
Is this funny?
A long story, Jeff, let's hearfrom our guests.
It's long story.
(05:12):
Let's hear, let's hear from ourguests.
We've heard enough from you.
I just wanted to tee him upbecause I, I'm so appreciative
and excited that he's here, soyeah.
Oh, great.
It's great.
And, and thank you forcontacting me.
You know, the back interestingbackstory on that, there is a
scene where the fireworks thatthey're shooting off in a crazy
fashion because the movie ispartly about men not being able
(05:34):
to control themselves andfireworks is one way that they
get outta control.
And, and so they actually hadthese fireworks going all over
the place and they did it nextto what was supposedly the local
school.
Well, it was.
In fact they started it on fire.
Oh no.
With the fireworks.
And uh, so they, they had thefire department come and put it
(05:58):
out and all, it was wild.
It's funny, um, it, and I waswatching it a little bit, uh, in
the car the other day in my,there's some Oregon music.
It's a little annoying now'causeit's a early eighties.
Uh, rendition and it's kind ofadds to the quirkiness, but my
wife's like, yeah, I, can youturn that off?
So maybe it's a guy thing, butcheck it out and we'll, we'll
post it.
(06:18):
But, um, so how familiar are thethree of you, Michael?
John?
Steve, with the Christmas story.
Oh, are you kidding?
Very familiar.
Okay.
I probably watched it 300 times.
Yeah.
It's amazing how many, um, lilife lessons are interspersed in
the story.
And, and maybe I'll just letQuentin tell us the story about
(06:41):
how he met Gene.
Yeah, I can't wait.
And the origin story.
So.
I promise for Steve's sake tokeep the, my stories short.
This is John.
John says the one, John's therude guy, not me.
John is the one I'm ready tolisten.
Sir, please tell us.
He's the thug.
So, so what happened is I'm, I'ma new communication professor.
This is the way Shepherd wouldtell the story.
(07:02):
I'm a new communicationprofessor C and I'm going into
the classroom and I'm trying toteach about storytelling.
The students are bored, boredout of their minds.
I can't tell a decent story, andI say, what the heck am I gonna
do?
The textbook is terrible.
The whole thing is a mess.
And here I am, a communicationprofessor, making a fool of
myself.
So I look around to findsomebody who can teach me real
(07:24):
storytelling, who really knowshow to do it the best in the
country, or at least one of thethree best, and, and guy.
And I determined he's probablyone of the top three
storytellers in the US at thetime.
This was in the early eighties.
And that was Jean, JEAN.
(07:44):
Yep.
Shepherd, like shepherding theflock.
And so I tracked down his, hishome, uh, address, and sent him
a letter and said, uh, I'd liketo learn storytelling from you.
He'd never heard from aprofessor or an academic, I
think is the way he put it, thatwas interested in what he does.
(08:05):
And I said, well, can we dothis?
And he said, I don't see whynot.
Let's do it.
So, uh, we got together and uh,we actually co-taught a college
level course on, on his work asstorytelling.
And that's where I reallylearned what story the best
storytelling is all about.
I find, and I thoughteventually, someday I'd write a
(08:25):
book about my experiences withGene and about how he told
stories, what his philosophy ofstorytelling was, which fits in
perfectly with the KindnessChronicles, by the way.
And, uh, I never did it.
And then last year, uh, finallyI was at some, uh, group
somewhere, a party or something,and somebody said to.
And I said, well, I've beenthinking about writing, finally
(08:47):
writing this book about themovie, a Christmas story.
And they said, well, that's justa goofy movie.
There's nothing to it.
And I said, really?
And, and then I told them acouple of stories about the
stories in the movie and why thestories are the way they are,
because Gene Shepherd was reallya philosopher or a semi
theologian in a philosophy oflife.
(09:07):
And that's what the movie's allabout.
And, and when I told thesepeople, they were stunned.
Uh, they, they said they'd neversee it same way again.
So I wrote the book calledYou'll Shoot Your Eye Out, which
is the most popular right linefrom the movie.
Yeah.
And, uh, and so that, that'swhat happened on that.
I finally ended up writing thebook that I thought maybe I
(09:29):
would write 30 years ago orsomething.
view of storytelling was what I.
Compassionate storytelling.
Love it.
He wanted to tell stories thatwould reveal our weaknesses, our
foibles, uh, the nuttiness thatis this thing called being
(09:53):
human.
Uh, but would do it in a waythat we would all look at it and
say, boy, that's the way it is.
And not look at it and say, oh,other people are down.
Other people and the kindness,that's a humble humor, which is
where the word humor comes from.
(10:13):
And, uh, it, it helps us seeourselves more clearly.
And that's what Gene did in allof his storytelling.
He was a compassionatestoryteller.
And then along the way, allkinds of other people who
listened to him on a late nightradio show he had in New York,
which was popular across coastat night.
(10:35):
Learned storytelling from him,listening to him again and
again.
And, uh, many interesting peopleinvolved in that.
Uh, Seinfeld is one of those,uh, uh, pen Gillette.
In fact, pen Gillette says helearned about humor from
listening to Gene at night.
And Jerry Seinfeld says, he toldme he learned his entire comedic
(10:58):
sensibility from Gene Shepherd.
Wow.
So there are tremendousinfluences here.
But it's really interesting'cause you watch the movie,
let's say a Christmas story,that's the most popular movie in
America now seen by over 50million adults annually.
And you, you don't get the sensethat we're making fun of people,
but rather we're seeingourselves the way we really are.
(11:20):
Yeah.
Steve and I are here and weactually met in a communication
class in college, believe it ornot, our under undergraduate.
A long time ago.
Yeah.
It was a, it was acommunications class.
That's right.
You were a communication.
What school was it at?
It was in, uh, St.
Cloud, Minnesota, St.
Cloud State University.
It would've been 89, probablyaround that time.
(11:40):
Yep.
It's very much the Ivy League ofCentral Minnesota.
Okay.
Well we, we call it the Harvardof Easterns County.
It's the Harvard of EasternsCounty.
But my question for you is, um,back up a little bit, why were
you a communications professor?
What was it about communicationsthat drew you in Yeah.
(12:02):
And led you to understanding thepower of storytelling?
Well, two aspects to this.
Let say St.
Cloud's a good school.
Thank you.
One of my former students CoolHus, right?
Teaches there.
Oh, really?
Oh, cool.
Yeah.
It, it's not the notoriety ofthe status of a school that
makes it good.
It's the quality of the faculty.
(12:23):
There you go.
That Any, any, yeah.
So at any rate, what happened isI grew up in Chicago and I grew
up in a very hellish situation.
My father was an alcoholic.
My mother was a paranoidschizophrenic.
And, uh, they were incapable ofraising me, certainly not able
to raise me well or nurture me.
(12:43):
And so I went inside myself andI had all kinds of emotional
problems that have affected mefor my life.
Um, and I'm a lifelong suffererof anxiety and depression.
From that, I've had a lot oftherapy and all.
I don't want you to feel toosorry for me.
It's okay.
But what happened was, uh,through, through all of that, I
ended up living with my mother.
(13:06):
They were divorced and my fatherdied and, and I lived with my
mother in a trailer.
We were white trailer trash.
We had no money.
My mother, uh, was talking topeople that didn't exist and she
couldn't hold a job.
She never got a driver'slicense.
And so I'm just trying tosurvive and I'm, I'm doing a lot
of reading and trying to figureout what the world is about
(13:28):
through the stories that I wouldread.
And then I, I got into highschool and I was a loner there
too.
But then when it came time to goto college, I thought I would
major in engineering because Ilike technical stuff.
I'm a ham radio operator.
Gene Shepherd was a ham radiooperator.
That's how I got his homeaddress originally, and through
the, uh, federal CommunicationsCommission.
(13:51):
So at any rate, I I, I got theschool and I was gonna study
engineering, and I thought, youknow, what I really need is to
figure out how to communicatewith people.
I need to come out of my shell.
And, uh, so I started takingsome communication courses and I
found it fascinating.
And then, then I learned alongthe way too, that the most
powerful form of humanexpression is story.
(14:15):
If you can tell a story and, andtell it, well, you can influence
people, you can get theirattention, you can persuade
them.
Storytelling is so, soimportant.
So in my book, you'll shoot youreye out.
What what I try to do is notjust explain how Shepherd told
his stories, but also how youcan be a storyteller too, and
(14:36):
how I learn these things fromhim.
Because the way we reallyconnect with each other is by
hearing each other's stories.
You know, as part of theKindness Chronicles, you could
say we take on empathy for otherpeople.
When we hear their stories.
So I learned that in college andthen I had some professors that
said to me, Hey, you gotta, yougotta keep going and go to grad
(14:59):
school.
And I said, what for?
I don't want a graduate degree.
You know, I, I was thinking ofworking in a radio and, and at
any rate, they convinced me todo it.
And so I ended up getting amaster's degree in a PhD.
Wow.
You made, you made the rightchoice.
By the way, if you know how muchradio guys make.
Yeah.
Right.
Well, I still love radio and,and I, I, you know, I have some
(15:22):
podcasts and all too, but for,for me, communication was
learning how to be fully humanin a way that I might flourish
in my relationships with otherpeople, because all of our
relationships are formed ordeformed through communic well.
(15:42):
You can develop somerelationships and that's what's
gonna make life most worthwhile.
Professor, I have to admit thatof all the guests that we've
ever had on, it's very difficultfor us not to interrupt our
guests.
So I want to apologize inadvance, especially for myself.
But this topic is just somesmerizing to me.
(16:06):
And you know, Jeff, if youcontinue to bring guests like
this, we may turn you from anintern to a senior intern
sometime here in the future.
But, uh, all kidding aside, I I,I'd love to go back to the, to
the connection with GeneShepherd.
You know, you, it sounds likeyou virtually stalked him to
get.
Connected to him, but you know,tell us how the class that you
(16:28):
taught with him came together.
'cause I mean, not everybody canjust call up a Gene Shepherd and
say, Hey, let's teach a classtogether.
That had to have taken some, uh,some guts or other things.
Yeah.
I knew, I knew Gene was ornery.
I had read some Oh really?
Series with him.
Heard some, heard him on.
Yeah, he was kind of an ornerycharacter, so, uh, and sometimes
(16:49):
he used pretty foul language.
I thought, boy, what am Igetting myself into?
I'm a fairly new professor at anew school.
Am I gonna get fired?
So I I, I asked one of mycolleagues who had been there a
long time to, to co-teach thecourse too, to, to help me along
if I got into trouble.
And, uh, so he came in and weput together a syllabus.
(17:10):
And I, which I ran by Gene,which included elements from all
of his different work, from hisbooks, his short stories, his TV
shows, his radio shows, hisstage performances.
And I, we also invited him to doa stage performance at the
school, which he did one night.
(17:30):
Uh, we co-sponsored it with thelocal PBS affiliate, and he, he
could tell one of his stories.
And 45 minutes, and he performedall of the characters in the
story with no props other thanhis body.
Oh my god.
The most amazing thing to see.
So how did it go?
Well, uh, the, the, the way heworked was to sit on the desk
(17:55):
and to hold court and students,him questions in.
We had viewed, you know, in theprevious days or read, we read a
number of his novels and uh, andthen he would, he was off and
running and he was tellingstories.
(18:17):
So they would say, why did youhave such and such a character
in such and such a movie orwhatever?
Or, what's the deal with thiskid wanting a red writer PB
rifle?
You know, did you going, what's.
And then he would go on andexplain why that was in there.
You, so it was, he was kind ofmonolog in that sense.
(18:39):
You, uh, shared a story withMike Rowe about how at some
point, you must have beendeveloping a friendship with him
at this point, but, uh, youpulled him aside and said, you
know, you're a Calvinist.
Storyteller.
Yeah.
And, and I don't know if thatwas in person or part of your,
uh, your Yeah.
In person.
Go ahead and share that.
I, because if people don't knowwhat that means, I thought it
(19:01):
was pretty funny.
Can I just ask real quick?
Yeah.
Interesting year.
What year was it that you firstmet Gene Shepherd?
Uh, it was in the earlyeighties.
The first time we talked thecourse was, uh, I think it was
January of 86, if I remember.
So it was after the, was.
Yeah, it was after the movie,shortly after.
(19:22):
We also did a pre, pre, wellmaybe I, it was before that too,
because I remember we also did apreview of that movie and then
he, he did something he rarelywould do, and that is he opened
it up for questions afterwards.
Oh wow.
Neat.
And, uh, kind of a focus groupand.
(19:47):
So, uh, well, let's just saythat if people said things that
were not kind about the movie,he had no qualms about, uh,
telling them why they werewrong.
He, he had a very, like a lot ofof great comedians, he had a
very big ego and very lowself-esteem.
(20:07):
So I, I got to know him, uh,during the eighties and into the
nineties the last time for.
I would've 96 because I think hepassed in 99.
Yeah, he passed in 99.
I think.
His wife, Lee, Lee Brown, whoactually sings the song in the
(20:30):
Great American 4th of July andother, uh, disasters.
The, the, there's a song inthere, the Ballad of Ludlow
Kissel, and, uh, his wife singsthat.
Wow.
Well, I interrupted, uh, Jeff'squestion, but I just, I wanted
to have an understanding ofabout what timeframe this was.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's a timeframe.
(20:50):
And he, he was already, well,once a Christmas story came out,
he was pretty well known Sure.
For that movie.
But the movie bombed when itcame out in 83, which is
shocking.
Yeah.
And then, uh, and then laterwith the VC.
I read a lot of his stuff,including an early book that he
did, which was a collection ofstories by a Chicago newspaper
(21:14):
storyteller by the name ofGeorge, A a DE, and in that book
more than anywhere else, he thatI knew at the time.
Uh, there are two kinds ofhumorists in the world.
(21:35):
He said there are those thatmake jokes about people, uh uh,
because they think that it willhelp people improve their lot in
life.
And he called thosefundamentalist preachers.
Okay?
Yep.
And then he said there are otherkinds of people who make jokes.
(21:57):
By putting people down becausethey don't like them, they don't
like what they do or whatever.
And he, he said, um, his humoris of the kind where he believes
that nobody's perfect.
Everybody's got all kinds ofweaknesses and does things they
shouldn't.
And, but that's the way we allare and we're all in this
(22:19):
together.
And so we need to do the best wecan.
And, and Calvinism has within ita doctrine about total
depravity, that everybody'sdepraved.
And anytime we act in ways thatare kind or good, it's because
of grace.
So I said to Gene one day, Isaid, gene, really?
You are a kind of secularCalvinist.
(22:41):
Oh my.
And, and he agreed with thatimmediately.
Wow.
Professor.
Yeah.
Professor, I'm curious, uh, youbeing, um, a PhD in
communication and referencingthese storytellers.
We, we had our own GarrisonKeeler here in St.
(23:02):
Paul, who was one heck of astoryteller as well.
We still is also a professor.
Yes.
Still is.
I know what I, I, I mean, wereyou familiar with his work as
well?
You were mentioning the topthree storytellers and mm-hmm.
All I could think of was.
Uh, Garrison Keeler because heis, he's local.
I'm sort of curious if you haveany connection with Garrison.
(23:23):
Yeah, I know his work prettywell and I read actually some
academic articles that reviewand critique his, explain his
work.
Uh, I have never met him.
Uh, I'm trying to think now.
I know.
In fact, I'd never been at oneof his performances in person,
although I used to listen tothem on the radio some, and he
had this storytelling componentin there.
(23:46):
Where he would talk about LakeWobegon.
And then he Yes, wrote aboutthat.
Of course, in his books and all,I think his approach to
storytelling, this compassionatestorytelling or compassionate
humor, uh, was very close toGene.
What Gene did, uh, it never hadin my estimation the depth of
(24:08):
theme or message in it that Jeandid.
If you look at book.
You'll shoot your eye out, youwill be blown away by the how
deep.
Gene thought about all of thestories that he told, what they
said about life.
Uh, his, all of his storytellingwas really parables that worked
(24:31):
on two levels.
The one level was everyday life,and this is sort of the way it
is, and we laugh about it andthere's some nostalgia in it
with him, but then there's alsoa message there.
And this whole thing with the BBrifle, the Red Rider BB rifle
that Ralphie wants, uh, came outof shepherd's view of what was
(24:52):
happening during the Cold War.
And he was very worried thatmen, men controlled the weapons,
uh, might get into it and shooteach other with weapons during
the Cold War, particularly with.
Mass destruction.
So Dr.
The nuclear stuff that wasdeveloping at the time, and,
(25:15):
and, and he and Gene felt that,uh, this is what happens to men.
They become men.
He said, are Incurably romantic?
That's right.
They fall in love with thingsthey have to.
It's a special prize.
(25:36):
So, Dr.
Schultz, um, what a surprise.
Can, should I, yeah.
And then so should I, I, I, uh,I, can I just connect on that?
'cause I want to, I I, what wasso fun for me to hear in that
interview is clearly Mike Roweis like an expert on a Christmas
story and he was bringing stuffup and the two of you were
riffing and you were connectingall the dots.
(25:56):
And I started kind of thinkingabout my friends and.
Life and, and even just theseguys and, and observations with
my wife, uh, and my family.
I've got two daughters, so likethere's 20 chapters here with
different, um, lessons in, um,you'll shoot your eye out.
But for example, um, technology,you talked about how guys love
(26:19):
technology and that wholeconnection with the coal fired
stove, that's got the clinkerscoming.
But then we have this roadcaster pro, um, recording
device, which I am super excitedabout.
That's my piece of technology.
And then my, a friend of minewho's not on this podcast, but
he's all, all the time we'redealing with his cars and
they're half the time neverrunning.
(26:41):
And, um.
And, and that was just a, afunny connection about how we
are into our things and how thewomen in, uh, Jean's life were
kind of the heroes.
And, um, the whole leg lamppiece with where that was placed
and all that.
So I'm just gonna tee you upthere, but, uh, any comments on.
(27:03):
Cars and technology and oh, andby the way, one other quick
connection.
Just recently in the news youbrought up the Cold War I, and
we're not supposed to getpolitical, but when they
announced about the recentbombing.
You had brought up about how,um, who was the bully on, on a
Christmas story?
(27:23):
It was, uh, far Scotts Scott.
Scott Farkis.
Yeah.
So, and Dr.
Gill Scott.
Scott was named after the ScudMissile Farkis.
Uh, there's a connection there.
I'll let you fill the gaps in,but I Couldn't't help but notice
President Trump and then he hadboth of his, or all three of his
guys behind him kind of showingus.
A, a, a stance of power after wehad, we had done.
(27:45):
And I had thought of you andinstantly, so Go ahead.
Yeah, yeah.
I, I talked about that when Iwas on Rose Show.
That was kind of funny becausethe book came out last fall.
And then the, uh, the publicistasked me for a list of people
who might be interested ininterviewing me about it.
And I had seen a show somewherewith Mike Rowe where there was a
(28:08):
leg lamp.
Like there is in the movie, inthe background, he has it in the
background.
And so if you watch his podcast,he has it in the background.
And you, you have your, on thatparticular show, your publicist
called him for that reason, Ithink.
Yeah.
Right.
So I, I said to the publicist inChicago, I said, yeah, you might
contact him.
So she calls me back a few hourslater and said, done deal.
(28:28):
You want you on a plane rightaway.
I said, what the heck, uh, isthat all about?
And she said, well.
He's a big Gene Shepherd fan.
In fact, he learned a lot ofwhat he does in storytelling
from listening to Gene on theradio in New York or when Roe
was living in Philadelphia.
But you could pick up thestation WA a b, C there.
(28:48):
So the, the tentacles of ofgene's impact are, are just
amazing.
So yeah, you got the men.
Going back to the men thing, welove things.
We're more interested in things.
Women are more interested inrelationships world.
Are always bailing men outproblems that men create because
(29:08):
they think they can do more withthings than they really can.
And so, and that plays out withthe car that's breaking down and
gets a flat tire.
And the furnace, he puts a tirein the furnace put on there,
doesn't have any thread left.
It was only a tire in theacademic sense.
And he got the furnacedownstairs when he goes down to
the furnace because the clunkershit runs downstairs and swearing
(29:34):
and.
That's the old man going down tomeet the devil at the seventh
level of Dante's Inferno.
And, and, and he's gonna see thevery technology that other men
created and he's not gonna beable to control it because
that's what happens.
(29:54):
Men create technologies and theycan't keep them under control,
and then they come back and theybite us.
Uh, yeah.
So all of that is in, in themovie.
I mean, it's just theme aftertheme like that, that are, are
stunning.
Wow.
So it's safe to say that he's adeeper thinker than we are.
Yeah.
Generally speaking.
(30:16):
No doubt about that.
Well, I, I think, yeah.
I mean, you talk about having aPhD piled higher or deep or
whatever.
He, he, he did not have a lot ofrespect for people with high
level degrees, especially peoplewho were literature people.
Who thought his books were juststories about his own growing up
(30:36):
and didn't see, couldn't pickout the messages in them, the
themes and all.
That's interesting.
And I think, uh, you know, I, hedid, he, I think he had two, if
I remember right, two honoraryPhDs, one from Indiana
University, which he had aboutone semester worth of courses
at, including a writing coursethat he.
(30:57):
A c plus on, which is the samegrade that Ralphie gets.
I did.
I love that.
Yeah, that's great.
His theme, the movie.
That's great.
Professor, I, I, first of all,what a pleasure to have you on
the podcast.
Um, you definitely raised the IQabout 200 points and I just love
how deep you went with, uh, thebook.
(31:19):
And I'll look forward to lookingat the book, reading the book,
but I.
Oh, when Jeff said you weregonna be on, I went and, uh,
Googled you and I looked at somevideos and we always reference a
movie or two on the podcast.
I was listening to you do sevenminutes on how to eliminate, um,
(31:40):
and like, and then I watchedyour video about be in service
to an audience and I loved itand I'm watching you and all I
can think about is Dickie Fox.
On Jerry McGuire.
Yeah, I love that.
And Jerry McGuire.
Yeah.
That always cuts to a guy who'sgiving sort of the advice to
Jerry McGuire.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(32:00):
And I was li and now as I listento you, his old agent Yeah,
yeah, his old agent.
Yeah.
And I'm listening to you now,and you just, you, it resonates
with wisdom and knowledge andhumor and I, I just thank you so
much for being a part of the uh,po.
And Jeff, thanks for bringingthis guy on.
I, I also have a question or ofkind a comment.
(32:21):
So I love that movie as well.
I think most people do.
It's part of our Christmas time.
Even the, the voice.
That's Jean's voice, right?
It is.
That's his narration.
Yeah.
Um, that voice is reallysynonymous with, uh, uh,
Christmas, traditionalChristmas.
Yes.
And, and I, I had no idea thatit went that deep.
Now I'll watch it differently,and I wanna read the book as
well, but I wanna say somethingabout the movie.
(32:42):
The movie is, you know, about afamily, what They're in the
forties or late forties.
Okay.
It's not fifties yet, right?
Well, it kind of, it, I'll letQuentin expand on this'cause
this is that expressionismthing, if I got that word right.
But it, he never wanted it toreally be pinpointed.
Right.
Okay, Quentin.
Well, that's what I'll, that'swhat I wanted.
(33:04):
Go ahead.
It's about 1940, but you can'tpigeonholed to one year.
Okay.
Well that's what's interestingabout it is because it's
nostalgic.
But my generation wasn't fromthe forties and know that.
But somehow now it's, it hassuch a, it, it's very timeless
might because the vines, the,the, the thinking goes so deep.
Maybe it's there and we don'treally see it.
(33:25):
But now it also is traditionbecause it's on tv on TBS for,
you know, these marathons.
It's now the tradition is thatthat movie's on.
Right.
And you feel that movie everyseason and it's, it's pretty
fascinating.
And not only that, it, it'sdelightful.
It's sweet and it's funny and itis, it's, um.
They're, they're all sort ofmaking f you're laughing at all
(33:45):
the characters, um, Follies,right.
And, and their interactions.
And it's very sweet.
But it's, it's a movie aboutnoia.
Yeah.
And if it works well, yeah, ifit works well, Jean would say to
me.
People are gonna see themselvesin it even if they didn't grow
up in that period.
Yep.
So well done.
Yeah.
That was something that, um,I've been learning by listening
(34:07):
to Mike Rowe.
'cause he's all about, how do Irelate this to a larger
audience?
What's that?
And he used a German term.
Welch Mez or something likethat.
But the two of you were goingback and forth about nostalgia
and he brought up the Smucker's,uh, voiceover guy with the name
like Smuckers.
It has to be good.
(34:27):
And it just kind of brought outeverybody loved hearing that
voice and then the Wonder Yearsthat was a, a, a spinoff and
they kind of copied his ideaand, but you talked about
mendacity and relatability, andthat's where.
I wanna make the connection withthe Jerry Seinfeld thing because
these guys are constantlyquoting Jerry Seinfeld on this
podcast, and I don't know ifthey know what they're doing,
(34:50):
but it's that whole, you shareda story about him finding
earplugs on a, or you, you foundsome earplugs on a radio, on a
airplane ride.
And it, it said something like,in case of misuse, call this
number.
Right.
And he would, he would grab ontosomething like that and then
take it to the nth degree andmake it funny.
And so, right.
I see John John's humor doingthat.
(35:12):
He'll pick things up on LinkedInor something will bug him and
he'll kind of rant about it.
And I just like, anyway, I'lllet you go now.
Yeah, that's funny.
The, gee, you know what I saidon that more than I do, you
know, I'm just wondering ifpeople should go listen to that
part.
Geez, Jeff, about your Seinfeldconnection.
(35:35):
Yeah.
Okay.
I'll talk about Seinfeldconnection.
And one thing, let me just saythat what happened with Mike
there, because see, I didn'tknow in advance that so much
Gene listening.
I met him just before we weregonna record, and then we sat
down together and once westarted talking, I thought, holy
(35:57):
smokes, uh, this guy has learneda lot about storytelling from
someone that I learnedstorytelling directly from, and
we're gonna have a great timetogether.
And we did.
Yeah.
So he, I think he was right ininviting me in there because it
was like we were friends we hadnever met before.
Kind of interesting.
(36:18):
So about Seinfeld?
Well, um, if Gene Shepherd wasright, that there are two kinds
of humor, the kind of humor thatyou put people down because it
makes you better, builds you up,okay.
And the other kind of where you,you love the subject, love the
(36:39):
people, you're making fun ofthem in a way that helps us see
ourselves the way we really are.
So we're not laughing at people,we're laughing with them.
Yep.
That's the distinction that Genemade.
So when I met Jerry, I said tohim that that was what Gene
(37:00):
taught me, those two kinds ofhumor.
And Jerry said, it's exactlyright.
He said, and then he saidsomething along the lines that
he spent his whole comediccareer trying to do.
The type of humor.
Humor where it's based on thingsthat happen in everyday life and
it helps us see ourselvesthrough those things and the
(37:25):
things that we do with thosethings.
And that, and, and he saidthat's what the Seinfeld TV show
was about.
Which is kind of funny becausepeople would always say it's a
show about nothing.
When in fact, from thisstandpoint of comedy, it was a
show about everything.
Life.
Yeah.
And the way life is.
It was meant that way.
(37:46):
He got that, uh, he said, Iquote Jerry Seinfeld on this.
He says he learned his entirecomedic sensibility from Gene.
She, wow.
He even named his Shepherd,didn't he?
Wow.
Wow.
One last, or, uh, just a quick,I wanted to make sure I got this
in before we, um, I have to, uh,um, conclude, but I want just,
(38:11):
this is my last question, but,or last comment.
It must, I, I think I heard youtoward the end of that podcast
episode where you had heard aninterviewer.
Talking about, or, uh, it was areporter in, in Chicago who said
he remembered Gene saying, yeah,some backwater professor one
(38:33):
time, uh, like analyzed mystorytelling and that made me
feel like really good.
And he, he.
My sense was he was a troubledsoul, a little bit based on just
what I learned from you.
Yep.
And it was super talented.
Big ego, but maybe, um, uh, low,uh, self-esteem.
There you go.
(38:54):
And that, I just wanted to saythat that was very nice of you
to reach out and, and what agreat lesson to cold call or
cold email or cold, uh, write aletter, snail mail and, and say,
Hey, I, I admire your work.
Sincerely, and I would loveYeah, and, and just that, that
would, and look at now we'retalking about it and so it's, I
just wanted to say thank you foranswering my email and meeting
(39:18):
my friends here.
And so anyway, can I just addwhat I find Great.
What I find most unique aboutthis is, you know, there are a
lot of professors out there thatwill study the works of
Shakespeare and or they'll studythe study the works of Mark
Twain.
You actually are studyingsomebody that you could actually
talk to, somebody that you couldconverse with and kind of peel
(39:40):
the onion, so to speak.
Yeah.
To find out where he was goingwith this stuff instead of
analyzing it and kind of, uh,assessing it according to your
sensibilities.
Yeah.
You're actually getting to askthe guy.
I mean, what a uniqueexperience.
Yeah.
My God.
Yeah.
Very cool.
Well, I, I, yeah.
I just, yeah, go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Let me just say too and unusual,you know, that.
(40:02):
Yes.
'cause generally if it's awriter or filmmaker, whatever,
they don't necessarily wannatalk to you about what they do.
But I think he was interested inme appealing to him to learn
storytelling from him and teachwith him because it, it really
helped him.
(40:24):
Some good self-esteem, you know?
Yeah.
Some good strokes.
And, and what happened on that,and I mentioned it, I think the
only place I've ever mentionedit is in that Mike Robe task
where he went so long, but the,uh, a guy I know is doing a
documentary on Gene Shepherd andhe's been working on it for
about 15 years or so, and heinterviewed one of Gene's
(40:47):
producers.
We first talked about related to4th of July, um, the, um, the
Great American 4th of July, the,uh, and so at any rate, he went
to interview this guy and thenhe, the, the documentarian
contacted me after thatinterview and he said, I, I'm
(41:10):
putting a video clip.
And I went to look at this videoclip and it's this producer in
Boston talking about the factthe gene was so grateful that
there was this backwaterprofessor Oh, wow.
From Grand Rapids, Michigan,who, who, uh, took a, an
(41:31):
interest in his work and taughta whole course on his work.
And I thought, holy smokes, youknow, that's fabulous.
After Jean died and all.
Every one of us every day justencourage somebody who's doing
something well, no matter howmenial it seems to be someone in
(41:52):
a restaurant or someone's orwhatever it is, just anybody out
there.
And sometimes the people thatare most well known are the ones
that most need it.
Yeah.
Uh, it's, you know, that's, itwould make a different world, it
would be a world of much morekindness to put it in your
terms.
There we go.
Absolutely.
We, we spend a lot of timeaddressing the importance of
(42:14):
the, uh, the hormone oxytocinand just, you know, when you do
those things, you know, you feelgood.
It's a bonding hormone.
Yeah.
When you fix those things, it'sa bonding hormone.
And we also right, invite ourlisteners to practice what we
call Oxy to Sunday, which is onSunday, spend some time looking
(42:34):
at, you know, uh, manipulateyour algorithms, your social
media algorithms.
And I would suggest that thisSunday for Oxy to Sunday, we
take a look at, uh, theprofessor's work and we Yeah.
Delve into some Gene Shepherdlove, because let's do it.
I mean, that to me just.
Uh, it just fills me, you know,it fills me up.
(42:54):
Yep.
Um, I also wanna say.
That, uh, we are so gratefulthat you joined us.
In fact, Jeff was on the vergeof hyperventilation when he came
downstairs here, and, and I'mnot kidding, I was hoping that
we weren't gonna have to breakout the paddles.
He's done a lot more researchthan he was able to get to.
It's okay.
But we're glad you had a chanceto talk with us.
(43:14):
This is great.
Yeah.
And, uh, uh, again, we are sograteful for your time.
And, uh, Jeff, you wrap this oneup because we know.
He literally, there's a peestain on the front of his pants.
I was just, all, all I'll say isthank you, uh, Dr.
Schultz.
Um, if you want a good dose ofoxytocin, I.
Or read that book, you'll shootyour eye out.
(43:36):
Absolutely.
And thanks for being my virtualcommunications professor as I
embrace this new, uh, what did Icall it?
Uh, it was show, show show Shin,um, uh, beginners Mindset.
Oh, yeah.
Show.
We talked about that a fewepisodes back.
So I'm, I'm doing a career pivotas you, as we talked about, but
thanks so much for this, Dr.
(43:56):
Schultz.
It's my pleasure.
And listen, guys, get a copy ofmy book.
Seriously.
We're getting it.
We're getting it.
And, and let's, let's do a showjust before Christmas.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I would love that.
Follow up.
Follow up.
Goosebumps.
I got goosebumps.
Head to toe.
Let's do it.
Let's do it.
Well again, thank you very muchand we always like to wrap it up
by saying, off we go.
(44:42):
What a perfectly terrible.
T.
(45:20):
What a perfect terrible withillness and time here at home
perfectly.
(45:51):
I would confess such aperfectly, perfectly, perfectly.
(46:19):
Worst possible way.
Spent 365 days strife in thisperfectly terrible, simply
(46:39):
terrible, right.
And pain.
(47:17):
Face mask, LXi, glass suspicion.
Keep sex with space working.
No income, no paper, no movies,no sports, no.
(47:51):
Perfectly terrible year.
Thank God that a new one ishere.
It's hard to believe.
It all came to be this perfectlyterrible year.
(48:18):
Perfectly terrible.
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