Music Literacy w/Dr. Michael Georgieff and Ken Freed

Fascinating look at the impact music literacy can have on a developing brain. We also review KG's brilliant Kentucky Derby prognostication. 

Episode Transcript

(00:16):
Welcome to the KindnessChronicles, where once again, we
hope to inject the world with adose of the Minnesota kindness
that it desperately needs.
We got a big, big show today,but before we get to our main
topic, I.
It's just me and Kg.
Hi.
We're gonna talk some sports.
When we talk sports, Steve, it'skinda like a torture chamber for

(00:37):
him.
It's not his favorite thing,right?
It's not his favorite thing.
And that's okay.
He didn't even watch theKentucky Derby.
See, to me, that's more thansports.
That's culture's a slice ofAmericana.
Yes, you have to watch theKentucky Derby.
You really do.
And shame on him.
But maybe he had things goingon.
We're not gonna hold it againsthim.
He's our, uh, he's our guy.

(00:58):
But, uh, what.
What a fun day that is.
Well, let me tell you what a funday it was for kg.
So KG for those of you that arefriends with him on Facebook, if
you're not, make sure you sendhim a friend request.
He accepts everybody, of course.
But he takes these, thesemarkers and he creates these

(01:19):
placards.
He refers to'em as a placard.
That might be a word he made up.
But this, no, they're placards.
They're placards, they're, it'sa heavy duty.
Cardboard material that doesn'tallow the Sharpie, which I and I
use all colors of sharpies to.
And they're calligraphysharpies, I think, aren't they?
They're the best ones.
Yeah.
With the fine point.
Mm-hmm.
And half the fun for me withwhether it's covering the wild

(01:42):
or doing the horse racing thingin the summer at Canterbury, is
having the placards and coloring'em up.
And it's funny you mentionedFacebook because I connected
with some friends.
From Faribault and theyremembered when they saw my, my
Kentucky Derby placards.
They remembered my dad and Iworking the scoreboard for years
at the Faribault Golf andCountry Club.

(02:03):
Many tournaments, butspecifically the ProAm, always
the first weekend in August.
Huge tournament, big Calcuttawith a lot of cash, and we did
it all by hand and we did itwith the calligraphy Sharpies.
On the board.
Oh.
Oh yeah.
So the artwork goes back to whenI was a kid working with my dad
at the golf course, and it'scarried all the way over.
I make placards for every singlewild game I work.

(02:23):
My, my counterparts, the young20 to 30 somethings in this
league, and I am a dinosaur.
When you look around the league,oh yeah.
There's like two or three of usdudes and it's all 20 something
females and they're fabulous,but they, they use tablets to
have all their stuff and I handwrite everything.
It's pathetic, but we call, solike you do show prep?
I do, yeah.

(02:44):
In the form of a placard.
So you post on Facebook thehorses that you expected to do
Well.
You had your favorites.
You had second, third, andfourth.
And while I'm watching it, I amwatching the Master at work who
wins the Kentucky Derby, but thehorse that you expected, who

(03:05):
came in second, the horse thatyou expected, the guy that came
in fourth was the guy that Ithink that you had for third.
So.
How do you do that once in awhile?
You're right.
You're wrong a lot more oftenthan you're right.
Oh, I know.
I've, I've taken your advice.
You've the track, youunderstand?
Mm-hmm.
And with the Derby, it's evenharder because it's 20 horses.
Any, any given day.
A Canterbury with a 6, 8, 10horse field, we're all gonna

(03:29):
have three or four winners on a10 race card.
Derby's different 20 horses.
I've been very fortunate.
I, I was looking on, on thedrive out here, I was, I was
thinking back to Derby winnersI've had because they're,
they're not that often.
Sovereignty being one of them.
I've been picking or betting theDerby for 29 years.
Wow.
Um, actually is it more, no, I'msorry.

(03:50):
It's 39 years.
We're going back to 1987 was myvery first, so it's 39 Derbies.
And I think my winners, who Ihad on top are still single
digits.
I think now it's seven or eightoutta 39.
So you were, you werehandicapping horse races in 87.
87 was the first time I bet theDerby I, I, I, I went to

(04:12):
Canterbury.
You could simulcast it there inShockee.
The, the racetrack was kind of anew thing.
It was, um, right after, Ithink.
Either right before or rightafter finals, you know, 87,
that, that was way back when wewere in college.
Yeah, and I, I, I took a horsenamed to BET twice and he led
into mid Stretch and Ali Shebaran him down.

(04:34):
Well, it's funny because thatyear I, I didn't, for whatever
reason, I wasn't outtaCanterbury for the Prema, but I
was out there.
For the Belmont, and Iremembered what happened, so I'm
like, this isn't gonna happen tome again.
And in the Belmont I switchedand bet all Sheba and bet twice,
beat all Sheba.
So I was wrong on both legs ofthat triple crown.
You're still a good person.
I try hard.

(04:54):
Yeah.
So I, the greatest race horse inthe last 60 years would be.
60 years takes us.
Well, yeah.
You're going back toSecretariat.
So Secretariat.
Yep.
The reason I bring upSecretariat, it is my
understanding that all 20 horsesthat were in the Kentucky Derby,
you're right, were part of theSecretariat.

(05:14):
Bloodline.
Bloodline.
So fourth, fifth generation,whatever it is, there was a tie.
To Secretariat and, and I thinkthe, the cool part of
Secretariat is if you ever watchthat 30 for 30 on ESPN about
that racehorse, when he finallypassed away and they were gonna
bury him, uh, on the farm where,where he grew up in Kentucky, I.

(05:35):
They did the autopsy just to seewhat made this guy so special.
And his heart was two and a halftimes the, the size of any other
heart of any other racehorsethey had ever seen.
Which means he just had a biggerengine That's, you know, it's
funny, they called him Big redlong before they did the
autopsy.
Crazy.
Who was the second greatest racehorse in the last 60 years?

(05:56):
I would say Seattle Slew, uh,77.
I am gonna argue that it wasSham.
Are you familiar with Sham?
I am familiar with Sham and youcould make a case for sure.
So tell us who Sham was.
Sham was the Stablemate ofSecretariat, who unfortunately
was born in 1970 and had to runagainst Secretariat in those

(06:16):
triple Crown races in 73.
it's funny, I was listening to,uh, Patrick Roy talk about horse
racing.
I seeing horses.
Jesus, what are you doing outhere, gorg?
Can I, can I tell you my PatrickRoy horse racing story, please?
Yes.
So Roy wouldn't come toCanterbury often back when he
was riding regularly, by theway.
Thank you for saying often, notoften.

(06:38):
I don't know why.
It often bothers me.
It shouldn't.
No, but it does.
Okay, moving on.
So we had a, uh, really cool,um, stakes program back in the
early two thousands that ran allthe way through about 10 years
ago, called the Claiming Crown.
It's moved on now to.
Tracks like Churchill Downs andand Gulf Stream.
It got a little too big forCanterbury to host, but we were

(07:00):
the first track that took thisthing on and it was the
Breeder's Cup for the bluecollar horses claiming horses.
And it was big purses once ayear for these claiming horses.
It was really a cool programThey'd ship in from all over the
country for this one big day ofracing and shakopee.
So Royce always come out tocover the claiming crown.
And it was always right aboutthe time the Vikings were
starting training camp inMankato.

(07:21):
So a lot of the guys would comeout, cover the claiming crown
and buzz down a Mankato to coverthe Vikings Roy being one of
those guys.
So it was extremely warm inShaka, be in this particular
August and on claiming Crown,all of us that worked track on
the broadcasting side wear afull suit.
Oh boy.
And it was.
You know, close to a hundreddegrees with the August humidity
that we all know about inMinnesota.

(07:43):
So it's a long day.
We run 12 or 13 races, the daygets over and that's when Roy
and all the scribes are likewriting.
And so I come up after the 12thor 13th race and, and you know,
you and I sweat very similarlywhere it's a mess.
Mm-hmm.
So I get up there and I'mexhausted and I am dripping wet.
And one of the guys in the pressbox says, how'd it go?

(08:06):
And I go, look at me.
This is how it went.
I'm gonna tell you right now.
And I, I stand up, I go look atmy suit.
I go, I can tell you one thingfor sure right now.
And Cy snaps his head around.
I go.
You wouldn't wanna be my boxershorts right now.
And Roy stops dead stone.
Like stone faced.
Hey Gorg, I don't care how muchyou're sweating on which day
would I wanna be your goddamnboxer shorts.

(08:28):
Oh, Roy.
Oh, it was such a good, thewhole press box, of course.
Roaring at his line.
And I'm just sitting there like,yeah, you make a fair point.
Speaking of sweating, sincewe're gonna talk about sweating.
When I speak publicly, oh, Ihave a bit of a situation.
I start to sweat broadcast newsstyle, broadcast news, and I
just, I've decided, I've seenphysicians about it and they're

(08:50):
just like, and I don't feelnervous speaking publicly.
No, you're real, like, you'recomfortable.
But this is, this is just how mybody reacts to it.
So I'm up in Brainerd speakingto a bunch of old gals, at an
event at, uh.
What's the place that the ladiesalways go to?
Grandview Lodge, grand ViewLodge.
And I'm given a presentation, Igot a suit on and I am just

(09:13):
dripping wet.
Just, it's just a disaster.
And you know, usually you likewhen people are sweating,
they're thinking, oh, this guy'slying.
I mean, he's making up stuff.
And you know, when you're in theestate planning business, right,
you don't wanna be seen as theliar.
So I make fun of the fact thatI'm sweating this little old
lady.
Gets up and leaves and I'mwondering, oh, what?
What's going on with her?

(09:34):
And she comes back with a.
Bath towel, a full bath towel.
And I said, you know, really allI need is a WA washcloth.
And she's like, no, you need abath towel.
She said, why don't you take offyour suit coat?
And I said, if you saw thedisaster that was going on
underneath this suit coat, youwould understand why I'm not

(09:55):
taking it off.
Oh man.
It was so miserable.
Once it starts too, like onceyou're like, you start sweating
once that, that.
Faucet gets open, so to speak.
There's no stopping it.
It just, it just keeps onkeeping on and there's nothing
you can do.
Steve Brown just entered.
We decided to start without you,Steve, because we were talking
sports and horse racing, and weknow how much of a fan you are

(10:19):
of sports and horse racing.
But the good news is we aregoing to be talking to a couple
of people that are involved inthis program that, uh, that uses
music.
To help people learn.
I know, I know.
I can't wait to to hear aboutit.
I can't wait either.
It's interesting you're talkingabout sweating somehow.
What was it?
Well, yeah, yeah.
We got into the sweater ofsweating.

(10:39):
All right.
Yeah.
We haven't You ever had a, asituation where I'm sure rock
some places you've played Yeah.
Where you're in a bar or, or aclub where it's extremely warm.
Yeah.
How do you deal with that?
It's really about getting, likeplaying guitar.
You can't be wiping your eyesthat much.
Your hands are tied up, so, uh,it runs your face.
You have to kind of wipe bandanasome headband.
Right.

(10:59):
That's, that's why they exist.
Yeah.
How about like a, a Wilson NBAheadband?
Not my look, but have younoticed like Bruce Springsteen?
Yes.
Oh yeah.
And girl, it's like a thing.
It's, it partly is to protecttheir arm when they play guitar.
'cause it beats up your armright here.
But also it's a, it's one ofthese.
Boom.
Interesting.
Wipe across your forehead withyour brilliant, puts a forearm

(11:20):
thing.
But yeah, I don't, I don't havethat.
Um, I maybe don't work hardenough, but I'm also not a
touring musician, so, but you'rekind of touring this summer.
Yeah.
You're touring five shows, dude.
Yeah.
May 10th.
Let's get the t-shirt score.
Come on.
Huh?
Let's get the T-shirts.
Yeah, I'm working on it.
Believe me, I'm working onsomething here.
Oh, you got, you're gonna have,uh, swag.
Not, not this Saturday merch,but some merch.

(11:41):
Okay.
I'm working on it.
I love it.
Yeah, that's big.
So back to, uh,, the MinnesotaWild.
Yeah.
Season came to a conclusion sad,which is great because now we
get to have kg in Yes.
In the, uh, studio every once ina while.
No more traveling, no more doingit from the road.
Um, yeah, it, you know, listen,it's always sad when it comes to
an end for me, and, and I lookforward to like, I'm lucky to

(12:01):
have two seasons.
I've got, yeah, my winner forhockey.
I've got my summer for theracetrack, and I am legitimately
excited about Canterburystarting here in a couple of
weeks.
What made this season extra sadfor the wild is I believe they
were good enough.
To make a run, and I think it'llhappen in the next couple of
years.
But if you look at those sixgames against Vegas, all six
were up for grabs.

(12:21):
That's rare.
Yeah.
And, and they're one of the cupfavorites, so the wild aren't
that far away.
And I get it.
Minnesota sports fans are sosick of this because they've
looked around the last couple ofdecades and seen the Florida
Panthers, the Tampa BayLightning, Carolina Hurricanes,
the Dallas Stars, the LA Kings.
You know, here we are in what wecall the state of hockey and we
still.
Between the North Stars and Wildhave yet to win a Stanley Cup,

(12:45):
and that's really a shame.
Yeah.
I think Florida has four.
I know.
And Minnesota has zero.
Zero doesn't seem right.
It sucks, but they're coming.
They're gonna be good.
Well, I think what's interestingto us, to our listeners and to
our, our whole campaign here isthat we've, we've got to get
reporting from you on some ofthe cool stuff that happens with
the, within the team and some ofthe good people and the good

(13:07):
stuff they're doing and howthey're, you know, how they're
growing as a team, uh, unitingand.
The kindness is kind of comingout of it.
I, I think that's been prettycool to see even if, even if
they haven't won.
I like what you've been showingus with, uh, with some of these
stories about the team.
I think it's super cool.
I just wanna say one quickthing.
Somebody asked me what, youknow,'cause with a month ago in
the season, they were asking,you know, what makes this group

(13:28):
special?
It, it, it felt like when theywere interviewing me that I had.
A special affection for thisgroup, and I've done the job for
almost 20 years.
I said, of all the teams I'vecovered, they've all been good
guys.
Yeah.
NHL Hockey players by Nature arereally a good bunch of people,
but this was the most selflessgroup I had ever been around.
And that does tie into our show.
Yeah.
And what this show was all aboutand.

(13:49):
You look at the way they treateach other, the way they care
for each other, and it startswith their most important
players.
From Mark Andre Flurry on down,Marcus Fello, Jared Spurgeon.
These are salt of the earthhuman beings that do it the
right way to the nth degree.
And to me, that's what makes mebelieve that this group.
And they've got a group, a coreof this hockey team that I think

(14:12):
is gonna take them to that nextlevel.
And I think a big part of thatis how good they are together
off the ice.
They genuinely enjoy being atthe rink together.
And when you're together foreight months.
Right.
Grinding it out.
You gotta, you gotta let people,you better have a group you like
or you're never gonna havesuccess.
Yeah, exactly.
Is Ryan Suiter still playing?
He just got beat inheartbreaking fashion.

(14:32):
Sorry about that.
Um, with the St.
Louis Blues, they led by twogoals the entire game.
Oh, that's Winnipeg.
Winnipeg.
You know, the two goals win.
That's the worst lead by theway.
That happened twice in gameseven.
I know.
So all the grief I get about thewhole two goal lead thing.
Stuff it.
Okay.
I'm telling you, it's alegitimate thing in hockey.
By the way, intern Jeff justrolled in.
There he is.
Hello intern.
Jeff.

(14:52):
Great to finally meet you.
How you doing?
Nice to see you all in studio.
We're just missing Dempsey now.
I I mean, I wouldn't hold itagainst him.
He might, he might show up.
He might roll in.
He might.
You never.
Maybe next week.
We'll, it's like a clown cardown here.
I'll assume the intern seat overthere on the weight bench.
That's, that's, that's exactlyright.
Where by the way, thetemperature down here is
perfect.
Yeah.
Speaking of temperature.

(15:12):
Speaking of nice guys today Iwas at a luncheon for the
Minnesota Police Chief'sFoundation.
Really cool.
And Ryan Carter, who's one ofyour colleagues?
Yes, he is, uh, was there anduh, he was taking pictures and
stuff and of course I had to goand name drop couldn't be a
better guy.
He's a super guy.
He's a very nice guy.
But the talk about the heat, itwas a town and country club.

(15:36):
You know, they got enough money.
You'd think that they'd be ableto crank up the air conditioning
a little bit.
Oh no, not yet.
It's not on yet.
Maybe it was a torture chamberin there.
I think we've, this is the weekwhere we've crossed the
threshold here in Minnesotawhere I think the first week or
so, and maybe this was 10 daysago, you think, well, I'm gonna
turn it on, turn it off, rotateit.
No, no.
We have crossed over now towhere you turn that sucker on

(15:59):
and it's not coming off untillate September.
So I'm gonna make a phone call.
We're gonna call our guests.
They're gonna be on, uh, KennethFree and Dr.
Michael George.
You better carry this one, Mr.
Music guy over here.
Mr.
Music guy.
We'll, we'll we do just fine.
This is right in your sweetspot.
We'll do just fine.
Hold on for one second.
Alright.
We have Kenneth Freed.

(16:20):
He goes by Ken.
And Dr.
Michael George, if Dr.
George, if I have known forquite a few uh, years, he is the
co-director of the MasonicInstitute for the Developing
Brain, and I've got, uh, theopportunity to meet Ken Free
through, uh, of mutual friendRyan Johnson, who married one of
our au pairs, Ana.
Oh yeah.
And she, he knows, uh, Ken andintroduced us.

(16:43):
Gentlemen, welcome to theKindness Chronicles.
Great to here.
Good to hear you.
Well, we have, uh, in studio,we've got, uh, Kevin Gorg.
We got our 55-year-old intern,Jeff Hoffman and Steve Brown.
Hey, um, the, uh, the thousandsand thousands of listeners are
with us.
Tell us about this program thatyou guys are, involved in., This

(17:06):
is for little kids.
and the idea is, to startlearning how to read music,
music literacy, because music,is a language that, people, you
know, they assume when they seea soloist or something like
that, that you know that they'rememorizing the music or
something.
Start out.

(17:27):
You know, you're learning toread rhythms, you're learning to
read notes, and, so we call thata, a musical literacy.
And, it turns, it's kind of likethe method is kind of facing
play.
You are working with fivedifferent instruments., You're
working with the violin,keyboards, recorders, xlophone

(17:48):
drums.
You're learning how to sing.
it starts at age three.
It starts in pre-K.
But the important thing is notto perfect it, but to be fluid
in reading.
And what we found is thatthrough, 30 years of research,
that kids who can read music,read words better, read,

(18:10):
numbers.
Are probably socially,emotionally better, uh, adjusted
as well.
So, there's something to,getting people's, brains
activated.
And then building on that, youknow, for academic success,,
isn't there something to thefact that those first thousand
days are the days that are themost important?

(18:32):
Could you speak to that just alittle bit?
Michael can speak to that.
Sure.
So as, as you know, the MasonicInstitute for the Developing
Brain, which is where I work,is, uh, considers that one of
the most important periods, forbrain development.
When you think about our social,programs, and so a.

(18:55):
The first thousand daysincorporates that as well as the
pregnancy because you know, yourbrain's kind of developing
during pregnancy as well.
So at that time, your brain istaking our, the baby's brain is
using 60%, 60% of the sugar,fat, and protein.

(19:21):
But a baby uses 60%, and by theway, that's still 45% at five
years of age.
So, you know, we talked aboutthat first thousand days, but
that period of maximalplasticity, when are you really
primed in terms of your brain tolearn stuff, whether it's
language, musical language,early math, that kind, that's

(19:45):
all happens before.
So what captivated me aboutwhat, what Ken?
Basically the number of wordsthat you know by age three.
Uh, and I think this applies tomusic too, predict how you do in

(20:08):
school predicts your jobcapacity and your, your earning
potential.
So, so there's a lot at stakehere.
I just want to to point out thefact that, probably this
brightest group of people thatwe've ever had, which, um, I'm
in over my skis here.
Yeah.
And the other thing that youmentioned that I just have to
make a comment about, as yousaid.

(20:29):
We're using 20% of the fat andsugar and protein.
If we eat more fat and sugar andprotein, does that 20% continue?
Is it like a, a percentage ofconsumption or could you just
or, or am I just.
Making excuses for why I want toeat donuts when I'm done here.

(20:49):
He says, why you eat donuts?
Because I think knowing you,you're already pretty sufficient
in sugar.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Dr.
George is like 70 years old andhe looks like he's 35.
We're happy for him.
Um, is this, I, I have an honestquestion.
Is this why the Chinese intheory, have been ahead of us
for so many years?
Because don't they start theirkids?

(21:09):
I listen to that when, when akid is two or three.
And the, and the job potential,the earning potential, the
learning.
Don't they start their kidsearlier, aren't they?
Isn't it a more strict academicregimen?
The whole Tiger Mom thing?
Yeah.
Well, and music, I mean, musicis the, you know, Ken, what is
the name of your program?
It's, well, I, I'm from thecenter.

(21:29):
Well, first of all, you know,I'm a lowly viola player.
By day I play in the Minnesota.
Oh yeah.
Lowly.
I get That's funny.
You know, we, we only, we onlyplay a couple of notes, you
know, while everybody's busy.
And then mostly we're fartingaround.
But, um, the Center for MusicalLiteracy and Education is the
group that I'm, I'm a part ofwith Dr.

(21:51):
Larry Scripp.
And, um, you know, it's, it'sbasically, uh, we call it music
literacy.
Um, you know, let me.
And I was like, it's 1 5, 4, 3,2, 8, 5, 4, 3, 2, 8, 5, 4, 3.
I get that.
Star Wars.

(22:12):
Alright, so there we go.
So she's like, shut up, this islegislators.
She's like, I think musicliteracy should be mandated.
I, I'm a musician.
I think every kid should have tolike, you don't get outta second
grade.
And tap out rhythms.
But when we start early, we justlike start with a picture of a

(22:34):
bear and a monkey and a buffaloand an alligator.
So I'm sure you guys are smartenough to like people be right.
And you go bear monkey and abuffalo alligator, right?
So you're splitting the beat up.
So you're doing math right?
Proportion and three year oldscan do this stuff, you know?

(22:55):
Mm-hmm.
I mean, it, it, they're likesponges.
Um, and I think Michael wants tostudy, you know, what, what's
going on, what's the optimumage?
And I think you're right.
The Asian countries they investin early childhood education,
and I.
But they were starting violin atH two.

(23:17):
Wow.
This is in the sixties.
This ability to read and to readclefts and I, I conduct on the
side, that's my side hustle.
But the, the fact that I canread all those clefts, uh, sing
them and conduct them, uh, hasbeen, has been a huge joy for
me.
And I think,, every kid shouldbe able to do this country and

(23:39):
English, you know.
Looking and decoding and, and,uh, and, and we did this program
in Mankato.
I just happened to be conductingthe Mankato Symphony for about
12 years.
And we did it, we for Englishlanguage learners in summer
school.
We had kids from all over theworld.
Now they did not wanna be insummer school, I assure you.

(24:01):
Mm-hmm.
But they were playing recorderand violin and they were doing
this, this little music reading,music fluency program.
Uh, and they took off, you know,and everybody was like, wow,
where'd they get thisconfidence?
I have a question for Kenthough.
Go ahead.
But, um, the fiveinstrumentation, so, uh, Jeff,
the intern here, I'm also apercussionist and jazz.

(24:23):
Uh.
Jazz studies, uh, minor up atUMD, but, uh, and got to play in
the cool, so I love theimprovisation, I love the
teamwork aspect of it.
Playing in groups.
Do the, do the five instruments,um, are they just sort of given
as a choice for a, a kid or dothe kids get to play together as
a team, so to speak in a groupkids play?
Yeah, no, great question.

(24:44):
The kids play together as a teamand then they switch off playing
the different instruments asthey're reading off the chart.
So there is improvisation.
There is, but they're allplaying all the instruments.
They're not quite ready for bandor anything like that.
Right.
Or orchestra.
But they are playing togetherand the, you know, there's the,

(25:05):
the bass line and the middleline and the drums.
And so they are, uh.
So, yeah, it's a, it's teamworkas well from, from an early age
because they're, they're mostlylearning.
This is not private lessons,right?
I mean, this is like a typicalconnect.
Yeah.
Teamwork is important also forbrain development.

(25:26):
So in at MIDB again, we have aprogram called Flourish and, and
this musical literacy is part ofthat, but another part of
Flourish is something calledplay work.
And that's the importance ofrecess.
Another thing that is being cutby a lot of schools these days.
And why is that important?
'cause just like what Ken wasdescribing in terms of playing
music together, recess has awhole set of rules, you know, in

(25:50):
a play environment, but stillrules that kids, learn and learn
to.
Uh, recess play work, stuff likethat helps reduce the symptom
symptoms of a DH ADHD andprobably prevents it in kids who

(26:11):
are headed in that direction.
So the argument here with musicis again, building blocks as
your brain is building duringits most important and formative
years, meaning zero to five.
And, uh, and, and so that waymusic is not a luxury.
We're not trying to find thenext Joshua Bell or the next,
Beyonce or somebody like that.

(26:32):
What we're talking about here issomething that is fundamental to
how kids learn.
I I have a 7-year-old grandsonwho's a whi with math, and, you
know, I, we were trying to gethim to take piano lessons.
He goes, I don't wanna takepiano lessons.
Like, Parker, you're gonna get alot better.
Your math, if you take music.
He goes, if I wanted to getbetter at math, I would just

(26:54):
take more math.
Yeah, well there's that.
This is not a luxury to be cutbecause of budget cuts.
This is fundamental to how abrain develops and the example
of the Asian countries that wasraised before is a perfect
example.
Well, we actually have anactual, like professional

(27:14):
musician in our midst.
Mm-hmm.
He Well, you were paid to be amusician.
Yes.
You were.
So Steve Brown was, is the leadsinger of a band called Johnny
Clueless.
And if you were in the.
In the Midwest, in the, uh, latenineties, early two thousands.
He was kind of a big deal.
Okay.
But he was a drummer, so is thatreally?
No.
Is that, no, he's mal malty,multi instrumentation.

(27:37):
Now he's, yeah, now he's thelead singer.
You have, I can't believe howquiet you've been.
Well, I, I've been taking allthis in.
Okay, so first of all, lemmejust say.
I love all of this.
I love what they're doing.
I love what that is.
The thing, music is an amazingconnector.
It's an amazing confidencebuilder.
And according to these guys,it's a neural path generator.
It creates these pathways thatyou can open up and begin to

(27:58):
learn things.
And I have grandchildren.
I'm always playing, singingthings my mom sang all the time
at our host.
Singing, I think is veryimportant.
But I wanted to say, so I've, Ihave this dream, to establish, a
band, camp thing, and for allthe reasons that you're talking
about, not about trying to findsome hot shot musician.
It's about getting peopletogether, putting them in groups

(28:19):
of like the bass players camp,and you get'em.
They, they learn theirinstrument or get, you know,
these are young kids.
They learn a little bit, thenthey, then you get them together
to form bands.
Then you have a talent show atthe end.
They write songs, they write asong.
What I think that's would begreat for is to be great for
confidence for kids.
You get kids that arelike-minded, kids getting
together.
They have to work together, theyhave to learn how to do

(28:40):
something together.
And, it would make them,whenever kids are playing
guitar, they're in their room.
They're playing by themselves.
You'd be surprised, and I'velearned this from being a kid,
and I'm not a, I'm not, I'm aself-taught musician.
I'm not a reading.
I'm not, I don't read music likethese gentlemen here.
But, you get better when youplay with people, even if you're
both bad, when you play togetherand you have a focus.

(29:01):
The confidence you get and the,the, the amazing amount of times
you, you find a minute ofsomething that sounds like
something your confidence boostswell.
And, and by the end of it, ifyou keep doing that, that's you,
you can put out songs and youcan, you know, you write songs
and you work together and youperform and it's an amazing
thing.
And what I love about music isit's a place for you as a young

(29:21):
person to belong.
Yes, absolutely.
You absolutely know.
Not everybody is equipped to bea, a great athlete.
Yep.
I mean, KG you got a daughterthat's, uh, at Eau Claire?
Yep.
Who is she's way into it.
She's in the marching band.
It is a great connector.
It's amazing.
Absolutely.
How it has shaped her collegeexperience.
The confidence you guys aretalking about.
Yep.
Um, it's re remarkable how it'scarried, carried over.

(29:42):
Like it's legit how the impactit's had on Annika's life.
And there's something to be saidabout like we, I at Hill Murray
High School have to bring upHill Murray always.
There was the band hallway whereall the band people had to
remember.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
But all those kids were in theadvanced classes, I swear to
God.
Absolutely.
There wasn't a single one of'emthat was in the classes that

(30:03):
proving I'm right.
Proving them.
Right.
And just to piggyback on that, Ihad heard, and I maybe one of
the two gentlemen on the phonecan confirm this, Albert
Einstein, when he passed away,they, his brain wasn't any
bigger than anyone else's, but Iknow he played violin.
And they had, yeah, connected alot more neural pathways they
had seen that he had made that.
I did not know he played an somaybe I didn't know that.
Yeah.
He was a, he was an, he was anamateur.

(30:24):
He was an amateur and he lovedplaying spring quartet.
Wow.
Yeah.
You know what, I'd love topiggyback on this for a second,
because we had a program calledLearning Through Music many,
many years ago, 20 years ago atRamsey in Minneapolis.
Um.
When, so imagine this sense ofconnection.

(30:46):
The, the classrooms that weredoing music, um, were so
cohesive socially that ifsomebody came in, like, like new
to the class and started actingup.
You know, they would be takennot by the teacher, but by other
kids say, we don't act like thathere.
We use our indoor voices.

(31:07):
We are respectful.
We are.
And so it's, it's all of thesesort of built, like Michael was
saying about recess.
All of these building blocks ofsocial interactions that, you
know, teachers struggle with.
Of course, you know, because Idon't.
Period.
I just think they come fromoften from, from tough

(31:28):
circumstances and are actingout.
But that said, there, it's whenyou get together with, with
other kids and you're engaged insomething like this, it's
almost, it's, I don't know, youknow, it's like the, the Vulcan
mind melt or something, myself.

(31:50):
I mean, I think, you know, youall probably know that
Minnesota's obviously very highup in terms of education among
all the states, but it's alsogot one of the biggest, uh, gaps
between, uh, the lowest and thehighest in terms of academic
achievement.
So there's, there's a lot ofinterest at the legislature, uh,
for, you know, when woulddefining when these programs

(32:12):
would have their biggest impact.
One, one thing to think abouthere is,, we have school lunch
programs and that's a greatthing.
I was actually on the AmericanAcademy Pediatrics Committee and
Nutrition when that was firstdone.
Um, but it's a bit late.
It's kind of out of the barn atthat point.
So the, there's so much of thatbrain development that is

(32:34):
nutrition based.
Same thing for musical literacy,language literacy that occurs.
Either in the house inpreschool, because formative.
So how are these programsfunded?
Yeah, good question.
We're wondering why we work fromthe legislature.

(32:56):
We're gonna, the legislaturewe're asking for funding there.
Um, you know, we found somebodywho's gonna author an
appropriation bill.
Um, we're applying to, you know,foundation, we're gonna start
having a lot of lunch andbreakfast, asking people for
support.
But first, the first thing isgonna, you know, sort of

(33:17):
superintendents and, andassistant superintendents, um,
school, you know, there's this.
I feel that this could be areally good, um, early childhood
starter, uh, for, for buildingthe foundation so that kids

(33:41):
arrive in the early grades, youknow, ready to read.
The institute's interest in thisJohn in particular is that we
wanna provide the scienceevidence behind this.
This isn't just, you know, momapple pie and Chevrolet and g we
l feel good about ourselves, butgee, it costs too much.
But we can actually put databehind this to show you changes
to the shape of the brain,changes to the connectivity of

(34:03):
the brain, better behavior andall.
At least I found dealing with,with agencies, you know, whether
it's WIC or the legislature,that they feel empowered when
they know there's a sciencebehind this.
So that, that's the role of, ofthe institute behind this.
Dr.
George, if, we haven't had youon the podcast and I'm realizing

(34:25):
now that we should have you andDr.
Fair on at some point.
Mm-hmm.
But can you just speak a littlebit to what is so UN unique
about the Masonic Institute forthe Developing brain?
Yeah, I mean that's a tremendousresource that has, uh, that to
be fair, you know, came on theheels of 20 years of work in
something called the Center forNeuro Behavioral Development

(34:46):
that was founded when PresidentBrunick was the president of the
university who saw that brain.
And there are two particulartimes of plasticity, what we
call plasticity or, or when thebrain is particularly receptive,
those first thousand days thatyou mentioned.

(35:08):
And then adolescence.
That's, that's the other timeperiod.
So the Masonic Institute is, uh,was founded, what do we open
2021, uh, in a gorgeous buildingon, uh, the old Shriners
Hospital.
It doesn't look old.
It's former Shriners Hospital onEast River Road.
It together.
The clinics of all of thesubspecialists, uh, who, who see

(35:33):
kids with neuro behavioralissues.
They could be a pediatricneurologist, psychiatrist,
psychologist, developmentalpediatricians, all of whom are
university faculty.
It has a center for studyingkids.

(35:53):
Other ways that we assessbehavior in kids who aren't
verbal yet, for example.
And then a whole policydivision, the Institute of
Community Integration, that'sall housed under one roof.
This was Dean Jacob to DeanTolar of the medical school.
It was his and Dean Qum of theCollege of Education's vision of
putting all of those, thoseelements in one, in a one stop

(36:16):
shop.
our responsibility as a landgrant university is to the
citizenry and we think of us asa service center.
We are here to dispense thescience.
We're here to push things downthe pipeline.
So Dr.
Fair, and I would be happy to,to give you a lot more details
on that, I think, you know, alot of them.
But, but to give the podcast,uh, uh, do a podcast on those

(36:38):
details, well, it's, it's one ofthose things like I, you, you
talk about the impact that musichas on a, on a developing brain.
And why aren't we hearing moreabout that?
Because people have very tightbudgets these days and because
we've lost sight of the factthat music is not a luxury.
Steve, you had mentioned that,that, you know, you grew up

(37:00):
singing.
Yeah.
If you think back 150 years ago,or if I look back at my, my, my
wife's family has settled hereat Swedish immigrants a long
time ago.
There were pictures of everybodyplaying an instrument.
Yeah.
They didn't listen to music by aphonograph.
There worth such things backthen.
They gotta make it and for Yeah,you gotta make it and everybody

(37:23):
knows you much better, at muchmore proficient at.
Both are just a receptiveaudience, you know, just
listening to the radio orsomething like that.
This has tried to turn that backto why did we evolve that way?
Why?
Why do we do that?
And I can, like I said, we canshow you the brain outcomes to

(37:44):
say it was probably afundamental piece of growing up
and building your brain.
Yeah.
Was being a family that mademusic.
Uh, and everybody participated.
I know in Irish culture, um,they, they pass the guitar
around or everyone is expectedto sing along whatever it is
that everyone comes with a songand it's, it's not a show, it's

(38:06):
just a collective group ofsinging, and, and that's been
happening for centuries too.
Ken could probably talk to thefact that families would say,
oh, you know what?
We're missing a violin overhere.
What kid?
That's what you're gonna learn.
You're, you're gonna play.
Yeah.
A hoo nanny.
I, I, I have a, I have a littledifferent, uh, uh, view of this

(38:26):
from the idea of school, becauseI learned when I went to school,
I was already playing violin,but I learned to play trumpet,
barone.
Viola because these programswere there and I, I loved it.
I just thought it was great fun.
But I think what happened issomewhere along the way, music

(38:48):
turned into enrichment insteadof a necessity.
Yeah, right.
It, it was just something thatyou, oh, well that's it.
Like Michael was saying, aluxury.
The other thing that happened,it was like.
Talented kids.
Yeah.
You know, and the talented kidsare gonna get their own lessons
anyway.
And what, what got lost in thisis that it actually, you know,

(39:09):
and that's, that's why it's soimportant for the Masonic
Institute to be able to, this isnew, you know, kind of evidence.
Those of us that are, you know,addicted already know.
I spend so much time in Mankatothat these small towns, where

(39:29):
everybody pitches together and akid can't afford an instrument
or can't afford, uh, a, a banduniform or can't afford lessons,
you know, the parents group is.
That kid has kid, you know, theresources they need.
But this is about putting itback into early childhood and
saying, this is a literacy, thisis, yeah, this is numeracy

(39:52):
literacy.
This is a necessity.
This is not a luxury.
It's almost a chicken and theeggs sort of thing where all of
those kids that I knew that werein the gifted and talented
classes, they were allmusicians.
Were they musicians because theywere gifted and talented?
Or were they in gifted andtalented'cause they were
musicians?
you know what?

(40:12):
That sounds like a great topic.
That is a, that's amazing.
Because they were taught musicearly and actually Larry has
data on it.
Everybody can do.
Presumably everybody can learnto read, everybody can get
language literacy and so on.
Well, for the first time in thehistory of this podcast, I think

(40:34):
that we all have to recognizethat Steve Brown might be
smarter than the rest of us.
Well, now let's not go crazy.
Come on, easy music.
Let's not go crazy.
I think we we're still fightingthat same battle, and I, I'm
gonna bring it back to themovies because that's who I am.
Mr.
Holland's Opus.
Oh yeah.
Like that was the battle.
Absolutely.
In that movie.
Now, older kids at that point,but the value.

(40:55):
Of that being a part of ourcurriculum and how it's
mandatory.
It's not a luxury.
You know, these two gentlemenhave eloquently put it out
there.
Like, this is something weshould be fighting for in all of
our school districts all overthe state.
Right.
They could prove it too aboutstrategy and, and I hate to do
this because we're talking aboutpeople, but we really probably

(41:16):
need to be very transactionalabout this.
We need to talk about that.
Our math scores are not all thatgood.
Hmm.
And we have a, to make thatbetter.
And if you do that, you'll havebetter academic achievement and
those people will have betterjobs and those people will be
able to provide resources thanfor their kids in the next

(41:36):
generation when we can put anumber on it.
That's actually another thing IBdoes, is we can put numbers on
that.
We can show what the economicimpact of this would be.
So you're saying musicians cansave the world?
Sounds like.
Right.
Didn't they?
Ready with we are the World.
See one of many bubbles that wehave in the Flourish program,

(41:57):
getting good sleep.
It happens to be another one, bythe way.
Yeah.
Thank God for melatonin.
so one last question we usuallylike to keep these to 30 minutes
we're over that amount, but.
Do they still teach kids to playthe recorder in third grade?
Oh man.
Painful.
I don't know.
It was painful, but now it, nowit makes sense.
John, I remember an earlierepisode you talked about your,

(42:17):
you were a good, you were goodon the recorder.
I was great on the recorder.
I wonder if you still have, thatwas the extent of mine.
I was good on the ukulele untilthe North stars lost to the
Islanders in the 1981 StanleyCup.
And that unfortunately broke.
Was the You broke?
Oh yeah, I smashed, it brokehere.
Ukulele got uk.
We gotta get you another one.
I got big trouble for that.
No, but all in all sincerity, dothey still.
Do you have recorder these?
Oh, I'm sure they do.
My, my, my daughters took it.

(42:38):
Okay.
And that was a few years back,so I think that's still a
tradition.
I'm still laughing about thefact that we have a Minnesota
Orchestra member and someonebrought up VH one behind the
music, the journey par.
So, sorry, I'm.
Sorry, this is a veryunsophisticated program.
We didn't music when we weretoddlers.

(42:59):
We don't usually talk to Yaleand Julliard guys.
We're in over our ski, as Imentioned a few minutes ago.
Well, anyways, you know what, weare very grateful, uh, Ken and
Dr.
George For you guys coming onwith us.
Uh, awesome.
It's an honor.
It's, uh, it's a great message,a great, a great teaching, great
learning.
We gotta work on this.
It really is.
And you know what?
We're gonna be more thoughtfulabout the way that we abuse you,

(43:22):
Steve.
Please, you know, mycontribution than my, you know,
my children's contribution couldbe really helping your society
later on.
John, thank you.
Thank you.
Alright, well thank yougentlemen.
Thank you guys.
We're back and we're back.
We almost.
We, we missed the Seinfeldreference and there was several
card.
The bingo card was available.

(43:43):
Several, many opportunities.
Let's go through'em.
Start with, let's start with thePez dispenser, because when he's
talking about being in theorchestra, yes.
I'm thinking of George and thegalley dated in Elaine and Jerry
with the Pez dispenser.
Which, which PEs dispenser wasit?
Oh, Tweety bird.
Tweety bird.
Tweety Bird.
Tweety Bird.
It's great call.
Then he mentioned the institute.
And then we've got George.
Remember where she thinks heneeds mental health and he's

(44:04):
walking?
No, no.
It's the institute.
It's the, he's got the King'soutfit on it.
He's got the King's outfit.
Remember the.
Uh, the, the hot dog that was,uh oh, he's not crazy.
No.
Let me take it.
Ooh.
Yeah.
And then of course there was theconductor Maestro.
Who is the maestro.
Mm-hmm.
And then that leads us toTuscan.
And I'm in your ear trying toget you to bring this up during
the interview about the maestro.

(44:25):
Should we call the maestro?
Those guys, let's call themback.
No, those guys were far toosophisticated to be on our show.
You don't think they've seenSeinfeld?
I think you held held your own.
I thought you did pretty well.
But the beauty of Seinfeld isit, it's a melting pot for all
different walks of life.
And it it, and I think they'reold enough to at least get the
reference, the maestro.
Are you kidding me?

(44:46):
Oh, those guys would've gottenit, for sure.
For sure.
They would've gotten it.
I know.
I couldn't stop thinking aboutit.
Oh, that's funny.
No, the past dispenser, in allsincerity, I, I've never had an
appreciation for music like Ihave right now.
Wow.
I'm not kidding.
No, it right away I thought ofthe Chinese.
I'm like, this is why we arelagging behind.
Like we don't take this seriousenough and music continues to

(45:08):
get kind of pushed off to theside and clearly listening to
those two gentlemen.
It's a big miss.
Yeah, it's a huge miss for us inthis country.
But, but you think about quarternotes and half notes and you're
learning math while you'relearning.
Well, there's a whole notherelement of the circle of fifths
and chords and how it all, uh,there, there's a whole chord
progression that Steve canprobably run circles around.

(45:29):
I dont as a drummer, but youknow what I'm talking about.
I know.
So just so you guys understand,I never read, I took some music
classes in college and I, I tooksome things, some vocal lessons
and stuff, but.
In my neighborhood growing up,it was never about learning to
read music.
It was about creating, writing,writing a song and feeling it.
Yep.
And you feel it and you work onit until you get it to be
something.
So we took the long road to getthere.

(45:50):
Um, and I, and I'm, I am alittle bit, uh, handicapped
without knowing the language ofmusic in a written way, but I
can feel it.
And I know, in other words, Iknow when, when things should go
up and down, I could feel thatI, I.
Good.
And there's a lot of greatbands.
I mean, I didn't think in theGogos, there's a great
documentary on them where theydidn't know how to play the
instrument.

(46:11):
Fabulous.
Yeah.
But they, they put, uh, tape onthe, on the neck of the guitar
just to know where thefingerings were.
And so you learned patterns onyour, on the neck of your guitar
probably.
Of how to, how the fingeringpatterns.
Absolutely.
But what was happening behindthe scenes, and I didn't learn
this until music theory up incollege, and I took a year of it
and learned this, everything youwere doing.
The 1 4, 5 progressions and allthat stuff.

(46:33):
It all connects mathematically.
And that's why you have allthese different kinds of scales
and things like that.
Mm-hmm.
It is.
I mean, the people like Mozart,Beethoven, their geniuses, and
they could probably run circlesabout math and things like that
because of what they've learnedwith the instrument and it's all
laid out on the keyboard.
Yes.
And their ability to do that wasvery important because they had

(46:53):
to create all the differentpieces.
So all the orchestra represents.
All those different sections,cutting up that math in that, in
that piece of music, they had toknow how to, to communicate that
message.
I just have to tell my bassplayer, you know, like, hit it
on the, you know, you know, dothis, do you know?
I, I just had to sing it to themor play it or play'em with
something I would record.
So, so here's the question.

(47:14):
It's all feel.
Can Prince read music or is heall feel, I think he could read
music.
He probably could.
He's kind of a genius.
Yeah, he could.
But So you're talking about dad,he feels two parts.
There's two parts.
And think about how did youlearn how to speak your
language.
You'd learn, listen to mom anddad, and you know, as little
kids, and then mimic them.
And then we learned reading andwriting.
It's.
The same process, but do youthink Beethoven and Mozart could

(47:34):
do a penalty kill the way thatthe Minnesota wild does?
Well, it's a math equation.
Of course they could.
Yeah.
It all comes back to math.
It, they couldn't escape.
Well, it's, but other than that,so let me break it down further.
So I Miracle, one of my favoritemovies, remember the scene with
the, the Killers or the, theHerbies or whatever, again, kept
saying again.
Exactly.
And blowing the whistle.
I mean those muscle memory,those repetitive, and he's like,

(47:56):
the Legs Feed the Wolf gentlemenand all those there, those
Brooks.
They're just working ondifferent elements of, um, the
fundamentals Foundation.
Yeah, foundational things.
Conditioning, we have to do thesame thing as musicians in
drumming.
Its rudiments in, uh, guitar.
And you repeat keyboard scales,you repeat Exactly.
And then it becomes a language.

(48:17):
Exactly, because then your heartcomes out and then your plan,
when you're out in the, you're,you've, as a goalkeeper, you
took all those elements and whenthey were coming and doing a
break away, you used thoseelements and pulled out your bag
of tricks to make saves.
It's the same process when he'sup there playing a lick or
someone said, play this tuneyou.
You know, you can, you canimprov or whatever.

(48:38):
Right now, I couldn't tell youthe chords to a lot of the songs
that we play, but as soon youcould still do it though.
But as soon as the band startsplaying right, it kind of comes
out.
Lyrics.
I still sometimes say I forgetsome of the lyrics, but I can
kind of jive through that in my,my, uh, our, uh.
Our fan base.
You get those red pants on.
It's kind of a magic to thewhole thing.
It up, it is.
It's like cock Girls in lovewith Lover Boy stage time.
Hello.
Great.
Set memory.
It just comes out.

(48:59):
It's easy, it's weird.
So do you have a set list set upfor Saturday?
Not yet.
The dugout working on it.
What, what song do you thinkyou'll start with?
Um, we're gonna start with asong that we hadn't played for.
Many years.
In fact, jj, my guitar playerthat we play with Yep.
Has never played this song Livewith Us, so, oh no.
It's a song that I wrote in highschool.
Oh, cool.
I sang it at the Talent Show.

(49:19):
Wow.
At Hill Marine.
I won the talent show singing.
I love it.
Playing guitar by myself.
A song called, you Know What?
Typical, typical Talk.
Typical Talk to Crank Him up atthe dugout on a Saturday night.
That's one of the oldest songsthat I have, and we're gonna
play it.
I love it.
Well, this has been fantastic.
Yeah.
What a great show.
And now we get to go have abreak bread together and let's,
and we're done.
Done.

(49:39):
And off we go.