January 2, 2025 • 36 mins
Curious about how a shift from a "me" to a "we" perspective can change everything? Join us as we welcome Bill Groner, a distinguished former trial lawyer who represented Ground Zero responders (make sure to check out his book, 9/12: The Epic Battle of the Ground Zero Responders, available on Amazon) who brings his wisdom from the courtroom to the classroom. With insights from applied positive psychology, Bill reveals how empathy and selflessness can foster societal harmony, and how these principles are being taught to first-year college students. His unique perspective is bound to inspire anyone looking for ways to create more understanding and less conflict in their interactions.
Ever wonder how to make conversations productive, even when discussing heated topics like politics? We explore how genuine curiosity, conveyed through open-ended questions, can bridge divides and foster mutual respect. It's about listening to understand, not just to respond. This episode uncovers the art of connecting with those who hold different views by truly hearing them out and setting aside judgments, paving the way for unexpected friendships and newfound common ground.
Ready to refine your dialogue skills? Discover practical techniques like the LAP-P method—Listen, Acknowledge, Pivot, and Perspective—that enhance communication across ideological lines. We highlight workshops and exercises designed to transform young adults into skilled communicators who make others feel valued. Plus, learn how Braver Angels is working to mend societal divides with structured dialogue. Tune in to learn how kindness and understanding can be powerful tools in our complex world.
This podcast is a proud member of the Mayday Media Network. If you have an idea for a podcast and need some production assistance or have a podcast and are looking for a supportive network to join, check out maydaymedianetwork.com.
Like what you hear on the podcast? Follow our social media for more uplifting, inspirational and feel-good content.
It's one thing to highlight the kindness that we see in the world, but it's another to, as I put in many of my social media posts, #bethechange. I am donating all of my royalties from the sale of my book, Change A World; In Order to Change The World to local and national non-profits. Your help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hello there and welcome.
You are listening to theKindness Matters podcast and I
am your host, mike Rathbun.
What is this podcast all about?
It's about kindness.
It's a pushback againsteverything negative that we see
in the news and on social mediatoday, and it's a way to
(00:20):
highlight people, organizations,that are simply striving to
make their little corner of theworld a little better place.
If you want to join in on theconversation, feel free Go ahead
and follow us on all of yoursocial media feeds.
We're on Facebook, instagram,tiktok.
We're even on LinkedIn underMike Rathbun.
(00:42):
Check us out.
We're even on LinkedIn underMike Rathbun.
Check us out and, in themeantime, sit back, relax, enjoy
and we'll get into the KindnessMatters podcast.
Welcome to the show, everybody.
Welcome to a brand new year.
I am your host, mike Rathbun,and it's almost a cliche these
(01:06):
days to say that we, asAmericans are divided now more
than at almost any time in ourhistory and as we start a new
year and a new presidentialadministration, many of us have
lost so many connections overthe past few years, have lost so
many connections over the pastfew years.
(01:26):
Coworkers, friends and familymembers find it almost
impossible to carry on aconversation with people that we
used to.
What we all need is someone whocan teach us how to be better,
how to communicate in a deep andmeaningful way with others that
are important to us my guesttoday is Bill Groner with others
that are important to us.
My guest today is Bill Groner,and he is involved in many
(01:46):
projects that, at their core,share a deep interest in how
individuals can be their bestselves and society can achieve
its best harmony.
He was a trial lawyer for morethan three decades, notably
representing over 10,000 groundzero responders after their
(02:07):
toxic dust exposure whilecleaning up the site post 9-11.
The near decade-long lawsuit,labeled the most complex mass
tort in history, gave Bill asingular and unparalleled window
into humanity's selflessness intimes of need and the
positivity despite peril.
(02:28):
Utilizing the myriad of lessonslearned from his Ground Zero
Responder clients, bill speaksregularly about how society can
find better harmony byemphasizing we instead of me,
and by adopting the skills andtraits he has witnessed,
comprising human contentment andhappiness.
(02:48):
Bill earned his master's degreein applied positive psychology
from the University ofPennsylvania just this year
Congratulations and he isextensively involved in adopting
depolarization workshops andother curricula for various
educational institutions, givingstudents their best possible to
(03:10):
navigate the complexitiesinherent in today's society.
Welcome to the show, bill.
Thank you, mike.
Pleasure to be here.
I think that was the longestintro I've ever done.
I mean it was all necessary.
But yeah, how are you today,sir?
(03:31):
I'm doing really well.
Excellent, excellent, excellent.
And you have so much Wow.
I could speak to you justprobably for a couple hours
about that 9-11 or the yeah, theresponder case.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
A decade that took huh, each having disparate
situations, they all haddifferent exposures, they had
different illnesses.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So the judge did not certify it as a class action.
It was literally 10,000individual lawsuits all joined
together.
Oh my gosh.
So it wasn't like you couldjust settle one and move on.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
No, no, not at all.
I mean.
About eight years into it, wehad a proposal and it required
95% of the people to sign off onit, which was its own adventure
.
Each one would get acompensation package based
particularly on theircircumstances.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
But that's fair, though it seems like that's the
best, right way to do it.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Oh, I think I'm very comfortable with what we did.
I mean, as a plaintiff's lawyer, I always want to get more from
my clients and I wish I'dgotten a lot more, but there
were huge practicalities andobstacles and limitations and
I'm really pleased with theresult and I think justice
worked out limitations and I'mreally pleased with the result
(05:09):
and I think justice worked out.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So, and because of all of that,you got an understanding into
the way people communicate andyou said I should probably teach
this to people now.
Are you actively teachingcollege?
Yeah, are you a professor?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Not a professor, as a volunteer I taught about 1,400
first-year college studentsdialogue skills.
But I just want to go back andhave closure on ground zero.
It wasn't that I saw dialoguefrom that experience, but what I
saw was selflessness.
I saw people in this case theresponders putting others before
(05:53):
themselves and they were poorlytreated and they weren't
compensated for many years andthey weren't given respiratory
protection protection but yetalmost to a man and a woman they
would say in testimony if I hadto go back, I'd do it again and
they really looked at societyas a whole.
And I think that's whatdialogue does.
Dialogue gives you theopportunity to look at the other
(06:22):
person and their perspective asimportant and not just your own
perspective.
And if more people did that, ifwe all did it, more society
benefits and we create a betterharmony.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah, harmony.
That's what a lot of this isall about, right?
Is it that we as Americans, ascitizens, have lost our harmony?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
I think so.
Is it that we as Americans, ascitizens, have lost our harmony?
I think so.
I mean, my feeling is that it'snot the adversity in life that
fractures things, it's how werespond to the adversity.
So you know, we have a verycomplex society.
We have 330 million people, acomplex society.
(07:09):
We have 330 million people.
Putting us all together isalmost an experiment to figure
out how we can best get along,and we have differences, we will
always have differences, butdifferences can be looked at as
a strength and not a weakness,and the concerns that I'm
walking around trying to dealwith is that people look at the
differences as a negativeinstead of a positive and they
(07:31):
respond negatively to it, andthey and they are negatively
impacted, at least they feelthey are yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
We weren't always this way, though, or were we?
It's funny because earlier thisyear I was I don't remember
where I was, but I saw an oldvideo of Frank Sinatra, and he
was talking to these kids aboutall of us are different, and,
(08:02):
you know, joey's dad is Jewishand Tommy's dad is, and that's
what makes us great.
So I think we kind of allgrasped that and we all
understood it, but somewherealong the line, something
changed.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
You know I often think about that.
I look at my father's and mygrandparents' generations and
there was certainly a largeramount of civility.
Yeah, to me it felt like abigger focus on character, but I
(08:46):
don't know that there was lessdifferences back then.
It seems, over the yearsthere's a greater comfort in
expressing differences, which Ithink is fine as long as it's
done in a constructive way,civilly yes.
Yeah, absolutely, it's how weapproach each other when we know
, and a lot of the work that wedo is is dialogue, but it's also
(09:07):
an advance of the dialogue,it's really a conception, it's
going into this, thesecircumstances, and just living
this world.
And, and I think number one,intellectual humility is
important.
Um, we all don't know as muchas we think we do, and we could
all be more intellectuallyhumble and be more open-minded
(09:32):
to different perspectives.
I mean, that's the first sortof mindset thing I think is
really critical for people tohave.
And another thing that's goingon is there's a lot of emotional
responses right now andemotions are, uh, especially
negative emotions.
They're historically andevolutionary.
They're they're they'reimportant for for health, um,
(09:54):
the fight or flight mechanism wehave protects us, um and
narrows our focus.
But a lot of people, um arehaving significant negative
emotions just on things thatthey don't need to have negative
emotions about, and from thepositive psychology world, they
say negative emotions areimportant, but you want to have
(10:15):
them in balance with positiveemotions.
They actually came up with aratio of around three to one
that the healthiest people have,um, uh, three for every three.
You know, positive emotions andthoughts, there's one negative.
So there's a balance, becauseyou can't ignore the negativity,
but I'm finding a lot of peopleright now we're having
(10:37):
negativity in ways they don'tneed to.
Yeah, I'll give you an.
I'll give you an example.
I mean, I think a lot.
You know people and I hate todivide us into left and right,
but just for the purposes ofthis conversation, because we're
so much more complicated andnuanced than that, look at the
(11:00):
people on the right and thepeople on the right.
Look at the people on the leftin very stereotypical,
generalized, almost hystericalterms and they're grouping
people together in ways thatit's unfair and doesn't
necessarily apply.
And the result of that is, whenyou then talk to somebody who
(11:23):
on the other side from you,you're taking these notions,
these generalizations, thisdemonization.
A lot of them create a negativeemotion and you're applying
that to the person even beforeyou speak to them, and something
called social scientists,called confirmation bias.
(11:46):
Okay so if you're talking tosomebody let's assume somebody
on the left is talking tosomebody who voted for Donald
Trump they may look at thatperson and say, oh, they're a
Trumper.
They believe in January 6th.
And if you go in just with thatthought to that conversation
(12:06):
number one, it's wrong.
You don't know that.
But number two, moreimportantly it's going to give
you a negative emotion and it'sgoing to basically tip the
scales in the conversationbefore it even happens.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that.
I'm glad you brought it up,though, and, for example, I see
a lot of my friends on the leftand I think this is what you're
talking about, let me know ifI'm wrong that refuse to accept
(12:39):
or respect anything that someoneon the right says, because they
feel like that person voted forsomeone who has claimed that
they want to do harm to someonethey love an immigrant, a woman
of childbearing age, a member ofthe LGBT community how do we
(12:59):
get past that?
Is that what you were talkingabout?
With the passion or the With?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
the passion or the, the generalization and the bias,
right.
Yeah, I mean, that's a perfectexample and I'm seeing that also
.
I'm seeing that quite a bit.
I'm seeing friends who won'ttalk to their high school
friends because they voted forsomebody on the other side, and
family members unable to speak.
How do you get past it?
(13:28):
The first question is, I mean,it's a very complex question but
there's a lot of answers and inthe workshops that we're
providing, we're seeing a lot ofprofound impacts on a positive
basis.
And the first question is youknow what's the goal of the
conversation?
You know, I guess let's justtake it at the beginning, which
is some people don't even wantto have that conversation.
(13:51):
Let's say, it's with a highschool friend that they were
friendly with and now they don'teven want to talk to them, they
unfriend them or they don'twant to engage.
Now I guess the question arisesversus what would be the goal
that you could have with thisconversation.
And there's a lot of goals forconversation, you know.
One could be simply to connectwith that person, that friend
(14:12):
that you have, you know.
The other could be to actually,you know, understand that other
person, you know, have empathy,just so you can understand how
people different from you thinkand just connect to that.
That's a noble goal right um,well, I mean, I I think it's a
very healthy goal and we'll talkabout in a workshop, uh, how
(14:33):
we're accomplishing that and howwe can all do that, because how
cool is it if that, if we couldtake different opinions that we
disagree with.
That we actually look atnegatively and maybe we think
we're harmful, and instead ofhaving a negative emotional
state, we have a more curiousinquisitive state and we
(14:57):
actually learn what is going onin their minds.
So one way to get around.
And just back to your questionhow about a simple question that
somebody from the left whodoesn't want to hear from a
Trump supporter let's assumeit's a friend of theirs.
How you handle strangers andcasual acquaintances and good
(15:18):
friends will be different, butlet's assume it's a high school
friend that you have arelationship with.
Sure, how about simply askingthe question of why did you vote
for Donald Trump?
Now, a lot of them don't evenwant to even get there because
they're so emotionally caught upin.
If you voted for Trump, you'rea bad person.
(15:41):
And my response to those peopleis don't you want to know why
your friend voted?
Don't you want to understandthem better?
I mean, maybe it's a reasonthat you'll think is appropriate
or proper or fine, just likewhy not ask the question?
(16:07):
A lot of people are afraid ofhearing the answer.
But how can you be afraid ofunderstanding your high school
buddy?
You know what's going on intheir mind and you know, and
people on the left are thinkingif you voted for Trump, you're
probably in favor of January 6th, then you're authoritarian.
But no, that is an outrageousgeneralization.
You know, very few people whovoted for Trump believe that
(16:29):
January 6th was a good thing.
Very few people think that hischaracter is impeccable.
Very few Trump supporters thinkthat authoritarianism is the
proper way for our society to gopolitically in the future.
And if you can sort of getbeyond those generalizations,
just say why talk to me more?
(16:50):
You know?
So we work on curiosity.
We work on, you know, curiousinquiry, just to understand
other people and ask curiousquestions okay, I was going to
ask about that.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Is that a curious question?
It is a curious questionbecause I've a curious question,
because I've heard that before,I've heard that term and it
seems like a great way to starta conversation.
Why, why did you vote this way?
Whatever way it was, what wouldbe a good follow-up to that?
What do you expect he'll do?
(17:27):
That will be good for you.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Well, sure, but I think you're trying to step
around eggshells.
I mean, I think it's okay to goharder at it.
I think you know again, this isa high school friend, right, you
know?
With a stranger maybe not, butlet's just go back to curious
questions for a second.
Curious questions are questionsdesigned.
Good curious questions aredesigned to understand.
(17:54):
Okay, there's bad curiousquestions.
You know questions such asdon't you think that the you
know he will do this, you knowplaces people on the defensive,
puts him in a corner.
That's not a good curiousquestion.
That's a question with a designattached to it and the design
is not to understand A goodcurious question.
(18:16):
You just want to understand themmore.
You want to understand theirthoughts, their feelings, their
beliefs, their experiences,their priorities.
You just really want to connectTo me.
Conversation.
The benefits of conversationand curious conversation are to
connect with somebody Because,at the end of the day, we are
social animals.
We want to feel good about eachother.
(18:36):
We want to connect, even if wedisagree.
Why you vote for Trump could beand you can go right at it.
It's like aren't you concernedabout his character?
Aren't you concerned that youknow kindergarten kids will look
at him and think that that isnot the type of character that
(18:58):
should be in a president?
Are you concerned with hisappointments?
Are you concerned that thiswill happen?
Do you believe he hasauthoritarian tendencies?
Do you you know?
Are you concerned about hislack of expertise in foreign
affairs?
It's okay, depending upon youraudience, to ask these questions
(19:19):
and because the goal to me andthe workshops we're giving is to
connect with others by askingcurious questions, because
you're respecting and notjudging the other person.
So if I'm respecting you, if mytone tone is so important is
(19:40):
like you know, you know, sothink about this question.
One tone that is positive, youknow, tone one's a negative, you
know, are you concerned abouthis character or are you
concerned about his character?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
There's a huge difference in those two.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Huge difference.
One is annoyed it's negativeenergy, it's putting somebody in
the corner and the other one islike I really need to know.
Maybe you can help me because Iam concerned.
So one of the benefits ofcurious questions is number one
you're connecting with someone,you're not judging them.
Number two you're learning moreabout what they think and your
(20:20):
questions may help them refinewhat they're thinking, and I'm
not suggesting that should bethe goal, but your questions and
their answers may help yourethink and understand better
how you think about the issue.
It's really great information.
You're connecting all the waythrough and you're bonding and
you're finding a lot of timespeople we found in our workshops
(20:41):
, when people talk to each otherwith curiosity, when they
disagree, they find so manyelements of connection and
commonality that they walk awayfrom the conversation that like
they feel good about it.
They feel like, wow, that was agood conversation that they
never thought they could have.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, right, I think another thing that a lot of us
do, um is that when we'relistening and I think I'm guilty
of this, I know I'm guilty ofit, there's no think about it Is
that we're not listening tounderstand, we're listening to
(21:21):
respond.
I think in my head I'm going Iknow what this guy's going to
say when I ask this question andI'm going to get it when he
gets.
Oh, I wonder how that came out.
I'm going I know what thisguy's going to say when I ask
this question and I'm going toget it when he gets.
Oh, I wonder how that came out.
I'm going to get him when heanswers.
And that's kind of dangerous,isn't it?
We need to get away from that.
How can we listen to understandbetter?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Well, yes, we see that all the time and I'm guilty
of it and many people areguilty of that.
It's almost human nature to,when you're talking about a
topic, to think about yourperspective, to protect your
perspective and then engage inthe conversations.
Though you're right, the otherperson is wrong and you're going
(22:05):
to start talking to them tosort of bring them to that
conclusion.
Right, you know you're going tostart talking to them to sort
of bring them to that conclusion.
Right, you know you're going tofail at the first moment.
Right there, we've asked ourstudents this, our college
freshmen.
You know, when you're havingconversations with people, are
you trying to win?
You know what is the goal?
(22:25):
And a lot of them say that no,no, I just want to talk to them
about the issue.
And they said, okay, if youwant to talk to them about the
issue and you don't want it tobe a debate, you have to change
your mindset from questions towin to questions to understand,
(22:46):
and you create a mindset of thegoal is to understand the other
person so that I can walk awaybeing better connected with a
different view.
And and so the first year wedid this workshop with 600
students.
We, we did a workshop that hadthem talk to people and then you
(23:08):
, and then give your ownperspective, maybe find common
ground and compromise, and wefound that was way too much work
to do in a two-hour workshopbecause the students were having
problems just asking curiousquestions.
They couldn't get past the howdo I ask curious questions?
Not to win, but to understand.
So in our workshops we just doa series of exercises.
(23:30):
Your whole goal is to have theright tone to actively listening
, and we talk about activelistening techniques and to ask
curious questions.
And then here's what they do wegive them a tepid question like
ask the other person why theywent to this school and this is
Binghamton University wherewe're doing this program my alma
mater and the goal is ask tounderstand, not to win.
(23:55):
In this case there's reallynothing to win and we've already
gone over what tone, bodylanguage, eye contact, we've
talked about.
When somebody speaks, youparaphrase.
We've talked about whensomebody speaks, you paraphrase.
So active listening techniqueslike paraphrasing or reframing,
so that you're telling them oh,I heard you.
Oh, in other words, oh, so whatyou're saying is so you're
(24:19):
already out of this mindset ofwinning and you're into I hear
you, is this what you're saying?
You reflect on what they'resaying.
You don't cut them off.
We have what's called a one micrule, where one person speaks
at a time which tells the otherperson I hear you, I'm listening
.
That one mic rule is one of thebiggest things I think that
(24:42):
we've taught students that helpthem get out of the wind,
because as soon as they arelistening and are trying like
about to cut off, they realizeoh no, don't cut off.
My goal is to listen, not torespond.
And then they ask curiousquestions.
We talk about what was acurious question.
It's open-ended, it's notleading or judgmental, it has a
(25:03):
positive framing.
So they actually develop theskill in practice.
And then the other person theyspoke to looks at all these
about 20 skills that we'vetalked about and then grades
them and says here's what I saw,you did generally, what you did
right.
We like to commend what theydid well, so we're now
(25:24):
reinforcing the curiosity.
Then they do another exercisethat's a little bit more
difficult than another one, andthen we get into political and
social issues.
So they actually are practicingover two hours, asking curious
questions not to win and gettingfeedback on how well they did.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
It's amazing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah it's, it'samazing I mean just I mean you
guys are developing a whole newgeneration of good listeners and
good communicators, I thinkwould you agree I think so.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
I mean I love hanging out with people in their 20s
because they're incredibly smart.
I mean a lot has been writtenabout Gen Z and their anxiety,
the amount of information theyhave available, their intense
(26:31):
curiosity.
I think they are.
I believe in Gen Z as to bringus through this very complicated
society that we have in thefuture and I share that with
them.
I want them to have the agencyto feel that they can make a
difference.
And yes, I do feel at least inthese workshops we're making an
(26:52):
impact.
My biggest concern is themaintenance of the behaviors and
that's what we're working onnext year, because you can do
something in two hours andeverybody walks away and says,
wow, I learned a skill, but arethey using that skill?
And that is a great concern tome of behavior modification, how
you change behavior on anongoing basis.
And we're working on follow-upexercises, journaling and other
(27:17):
opportunities where the studentscan actually have these
behaviors reinforced.
And at Binghamton we're tryingto create a culture at the
campus where it's reinforcedwith the faculty etc for
somebody like myself who's notgoing to school anymore.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Um, how do these things become common practice?
What can, can I do?
Is it just being aware, whenyou're having a conversation, to
ask curious questions and topracticing listening, to
understand?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
I think, a mindset of .
I want to understand peoplethat voted differently or think
differently before I startengaging with my perspective and
what commonality and commonground we have, because those
(28:18):
are more advanced energies thatyou need a foundation.
So people, before they starttalking about well, you know
where they differ, where theyagree and maybe where there's
common ground, there has to be afoundation of understanding and
respect.
So the skills I'm talking aboutjust are those preliminary
(28:38):
skills of just and if you justtry that right now and you know
we've talked about left and theright, but we should talk the
right to the left, I mean, youknow, and the right has, you
know, has the exact same.
You know opportunities andissues and obstacles, you know,
and very fair conversations arepeople.
(28:58):
The right to the left is like,you know, the candidate that you
were voting for.
You know she changed from farleft to moderate left, at least
that's what I thought.
What did you think about that?
How do you feel about?
You know, politicians justchanging based on the tone and
tenor.
So we have talked about mostlyone side to another, but it's
bilateral.
But I think step one is juststart practicing being
(29:23):
comfortable talking to peopleyou disagree with, just to
understand what they're thinkingabout.
And, by the way, this relatesto with your partner, with your
spouse, with your kids, withyour coworkers, and this isn't
just social or political issues.
If somebody has an issue withsomething that you did, instead
of getting defensive, instead ofleading with your emotions,
(29:46):
just saying, wow, tell me whatyour thoughts are.
And this is basic maritaltherapy 101, but a lot of us
just don't do it, which is, oh,tell me more.
What's your concern?
How did it impact you?
Why do you feel that way?
What can I do differently?
Which is not easy to do, but isenormously simple.
(30:10):
And enormously effective if youwant to have a healthy
relationship.
During my master's program inpositive psychology at
University of Pennsylvania, oneof our lecturers was Isaac
Proletensky, who was the leadingresearcher in the world on
mattering, and his philosophiesthat are well-written,
(30:30):
researched and supported is thatwe need to matter for human
flourishing.
And mattering was we feelvalued and we feel we give value
.
The number one way to feelvalued, to tell somebody that
they have value, is to look atthem in the eyes and ask them
(30:52):
why do you feel that way?
Tell me more.
So I mean in terms of societalharmony, not just the
relationship of the two people,but if that can be endemic to
our society, that's a beautifulthing.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yes, it is Absolutely .
You've given us a lot to chewon here, bill, but I wanted to
ask you before I let you goabout Braver Angels.
I went on their websiteyesterday and I took one of
their courses.
It's a self-take course.
(31:27):
That seems like an amazingorganization.
How did you get involved withthem?
I?
Speaker 2 (31:35):
heard David Brooks give a speech in 2016, after
Trump first got elected aboutthe Polarization Society and he
mentioned there are someorganizations out there.
You mentioned Braver Angels.
I got very excited, I learnedabout them, I became a moderator
and then I took their contentto Binghamton to beta test it.
(31:56):
And they have this greatprogram where one of the
workshops is they teach the LAPskills L-A-P-P so that when you
talk to somebody, you disagreewith you, practice L-A-P-P you
listen, you acknowledge, youpivot and then you give your
perspective.
(32:16):
So and I did some betaworkshops on that and they
weren't, in my mind, developedspecifically for college
students number one and numbertwo.
I thought it was too much to doin one workshop.
So I looked at their listeningand acknowledging and I said how
(32:39):
can we create better listeners?
And then the Binghamton ProjectI created the Civil Dialogue
Project at Binghamton University, which is these workshops we've
been talking about, was bornout of that and we use some
Braver Angel techniques.
We use some techniques fromJonathan Haidt, his work.
He has the ConstructiveDialogue Institute and he's a
(33:03):
brilliant social scientist andhe just wrote the book the
Anxious Generation.
He's a leading force forgetting cell phones out of
schools because of the negativeimpact on Gen Z.
So we take some of his work andthen other social scientists
and then we form them.
But Braver Angels is agroundswell organization that
(33:24):
has chapters in cities, countiesand states all over the country
.
They are a positively impactingsociety.
If you just Google BraverAngels you'll see they're in the
press because of the workthey're doing and it's
mind-blowing and it's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, I'll include a link to their website, as well
as yours, in the show notes.
You've given us a lot to thinkabout, bill, and I appreciate it
, and I hope that we can all goforward from here and we don't
always have to agree.
We don't always have to agree,but if we listen and give the
(34:05):
other person the respect oflistening, I think we'll be a
lot better off.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Mike, I think every conversation that we have with
another person is an opportunityfor a positive connection and a
positive result.
Every opportunity.
Sure, that's idealistic, but Ithink it can help frame
virtually every interaction.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for the giftof your time, Bill.
I do appreciate it, and we'regoing to have to do this again.
Go into it a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Love to to Mike, and thank you for your amazing work.
I'm familiar with your podcast.
I think kindness, love, respectare all integrally created, you
know, integrated, and they are,you know, what humanity should
be.
So thank you for your work.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
You're very welcome, take care.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
You too Bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I want to thank you for taking this time to listen
to this episode with my guest,Bill Groner, and I hope that
you're able to take somethingpositive from the time that you
spent here today.
I hope that you can use thetools that Bill laid out to go
out and have meaningfulconversations with others that
(35:31):
maybe before you couldn't.
Maybe you'll be inspired, Maybeyou'll be motivated, Maybe
you'll be moved.
If you experienced any of thosepositive feelings, please
consider sharing this podcastwith your friends and family.
Also, feel free to follow us onall of our socials like
Facebook, Instagram, LinkedInand TikTok.
(35:54):
This podcast is part of theMayday Media Network.
If you have an idea for apodcast and need some production
assistance, or have a podcastand are looking for a supportive
network to join, check outmaydaymedianetworkcom and check
out the many different shows,like Afrocentric Spoiled, my
Movie Generation Mixtape In aPickle Radio Show, Wake Up and
(36:18):
Dream with D Anthony Palin,Staxo Pax and their newest Time
Pals podcast.
We'll be back again next weekwith a new episode and we would
be honored if you would join us.
You've been listening to theKindness Matters podcast.
I'm your host, Mike Rathbun.
Have a fantastic week.
Well, hello there and welcome.
You are listening to theKindness Matters podcast and I
am your host, mike Rathbun.
What is this podcast all about?
It's about kindness.
It's a pushback againsteverything negative that we see
in the news and on social mediatoday, and it's a way to
(00:20):
highlight people, organizations,that are simply striving to
make their little corner of theworld a little better place.
If you want to join in on theconversation, feel free Go ahead
and follow us on all of yoursocial media feeds.
We're on Facebook, instagram,tiktok.
We're even on LinkedIn underMike Rathbun.
(00:42):
Check us out.
We're even on LinkedIn underMike Rathbun.
Check us out and, in themeantime, sit back, relax, enjoy
and we'll get into the KindnessMatters podcast.
Welcome to the show, everybody.
Welcome to a brand new year.
I am your host, mike Rathbun,and it's almost a cliche these
(01:06):
days to say that we, asAmericans are divided now more
than at almost any time in ourhistory and as we start a new
year and a new presidentialadministration, many of us have
lost so many connections overthe past few years, have lost so
many connections over the pastfew years.
(01:26):
Coworkers, friends and familymembers find it almost
impossible to carry on aconversation with people that we
used to.
What we all need is someone whocan teach us how to be better,
how to communicate in a deep andmeaningful way with others that
are important to us my guesttoday is Bill Groner with others
that are important to us.
My guest today is Bill Groner,and he is involved in many
(01:46):
projects that, at their core,share a deep interest in how
individuals can be their bestselves and society can achieve
its best harmony.
He was a trial lawyer for morethan three decades, notably
representing over 10,000 groundzero responders after their
(02:07):
toxic dust exposure whilecleaning up the site post 9-11.
The near decade-long lawsuit,labeled the most complex mass
tort in history, gave Bill asingular and unparalleled window
into humanity's selflessness intimes of need and the
positivity despite peril.
(02:28):
Utilizing the myriad of lessonslearned from his Ground Zero
Responder clients, bill speaksregularly about how society can
find better harmony byemphasizing we instead of me,
and by adopting the skills andtraits he has witnessed,
comprising human contentment andhappiness.
(02:48):
Bill earned his master's degreein applied positive psychology
from the University ofPennsylvania just this year
Congratulations and he isextensively involved in adopting
depolarization workshops andother curricula for various
educational institutions, givingstudents their best possible to
(03:10):
navigate the complexitiesinherent in today's society.
Welcome to the show, bill.
Thank you, mike.
Pleasure to be here.
I think that was the longestintro I've ever done.
I mean it was all necessary.
But yeah, how are you today,sir?
(03:31):
I'm doing really well.
Excellent, excellent, excellent.
And you have so much Wow.
I could speak to you justprobably for a couple hours
about that 9-11 or the yeah, theresponder case.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
A decade that took huh, each having disparate
situations, they all haddifferent exposures, they had
different illnesses.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So the judge did not certify it as a class action.
It was literally 10,000individual lawsuits all joined
together.
Oh my gosh.
So it wasn't like you couldjust settle one and move on.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
No, no, not at all.
I mean.
About eight years into it, wehad a proposal and it required
95% of the people to sign off onit, which was its own adventure
.
Each one would get acompensation package based
particularly on theircircumstances.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
But that's fair, though it seems like that's the
best, right way to do it.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Oh, I think I'm very comfortable with what we did.
I mean, as a plaintiff's lawyer, I always want to get more from
my clients and I wish I'dgotten a lot more, but there
were huge practicalities andobstacles and limitations and
I'm really pleased with theresult and I think justice
worked out limitations and I'mreally pleased with the result
(05:09):
and I think justice worked out.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So, and because of all of that,you got an understanding into
the way people communicate andyou said I should probably teach
this to people now.
Are you actively teachingcollege?
Yeah, are you a professor?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Not a professor, as a volunteer I taught about 1,400
first-year college studentsdialogue skills.
But I just want to go back andhave closure on ground zero.
It wasn't that I saw dialoguefrom that experience, but what I
saw was selflessness.
I saw people in this case theresponders putting others before
(05:53):
themselves and they were poorlytreated and they weren't
compensated for many years andthey weren't given respiratory
protection protection but yetalmost to a man and a woman they
would say in testimony if I hadto go back, I'd do it again and
they really looked at societyas a whole.
And I think that's whatdialogue does.
Dialogue gives you theopportunity to look at the other
(06:22):
person and their perspective asimportant and not just your own
perspective.
And if more people did that, ifwe all did it, more society
benefits and we create a betterharmony.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah, harmony.
That's what a lot of this isall about, right?
Is it that we as Americans, ascitizens, have lost our harmony?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
I think so.
Is it that we as Americans, ascitizens, have lost our harmony?
I think so.
I mean, my feeling is that it'snot the adversity in life that
fractures things, it's how werespond to the adversity.
So you know, we have a verycomplex society.
We have 330 million people, acomplex society.
(07:09):
We have 330 million people.
Putting us all together isalmost an experiment to figure
out how we can best get along,and we have differences, we will
always have differences, butdifferences can be looked at as
a strength and not a weakness,and the concerns that I'm
walking around trying to dealwith is that people look at the
differences as a negativeinstead of a positive and they
(07:31):
respond negatively to it, andthey and they are negatively
impacted, at least they feelthey are yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
We weren't always this way, though, or were we?
It's funny because earlier thisyear I was I don't remember
where I was, but I saw an oldvideo of Frank Sinatra, and he
was talking to these kids aboutall of us are different, and,
(08:02):
you know, joey's dad is Jewishand Tommy's dad is, and that's
what makes us great.
So I think we kind of allgrasped that and we all
understood it, but somewherealong the line, something
changed.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
You know I often think about that.
I look at my father's and mygrandparents' generations and
there was certainly a largeramount of civility.
Yeah, to me it felt like abigger focus on character, but I
(08:46):
don't know that there was lessdifferences back then.
It seems, over the yearsthere's a greater comfort in
expressing differences, which Ithink is fine as long as it's
done in a constructive way,civilly yes.
Yeah, absolutely, it's how weapproach each other when we know
, and a lot of the work that wedo is is dialogue, but it's also
(09:07):
an advance of the dialogue,it's really a conception, it's
going into this, thesecircumstances, and just living
this world.
And, and I think number one,intellectual humility is
important.
Um, we all don't know as muchas we think we do, and we could
all be more intellectuallyhumble and be more open-minded
(09:32):
to different perspectives.
I mean, that's the first sortof mindset thing I think is
really critical for people tohave.
And another thing that's goingon is there's a lot of emotional
responses right now andemotions are, uh, especially
negative emotions.
They're historically andevolutionary.
They're they're they'reimportant for for health, um,
(09:54):
the fight or flight mechanism wehave protects us, um and
narrows our focus.
But a lot of people, um arehaving significant negative
emotions just on things thatthey don't need to have negative
emotions about, and from thepositive psychology world, they
say negative emotions areimportant, but you want to have
(10:15):
them in balance with positiveemotions.
They actually came up with aratio of around three to one
that the healthiest people have,um, uh, three for every three.
You know, positive emotions andthoughts, there's one negative.
So there's a balance, becauseyou can't ignore the negativity,
but I'm finding a lot of peopleright now we're having
(10:37):
negativity in ways they don'tneed to.
Yeah, I'll give you an.
I'll give you an example.
I mean, I think a lot.
You know people and I hate todivide us into left and right,
but just for the purposes ofthis conversation, because we're
so much more complicated andnuanced than that, look at the
(11:00):
people on the right and thepeople on the right.
Look at the people on the leftin very stereotypical,
generalized, almost hystericalterms and they're grouping
people together in ways thatit's unfair and doesn't
necessarily apply.
And the result of that is, whenyou then talk to somebody who
(11:23):
on the other side from you,you're taking these notions,
these generalizations, thisdemonization.
A lot of them create a negativeemotion and you're applying
that to the person even beforeyou speak to them, and something
called social scientists,called confirmation bias.
(11:46):
Okay so if you're talking tosomebody let's assume somebody
on the left is talking tosomebody who voted for Donald
Trump they may look at thatperson and say, oh, they're a
Trumper.
They believe in January 6th.
And if you go in just with thatthought to that conversation
(12:06):
number one, it's wrong.
You don't know that.
But number two, moreimportantly it's going to give
you a negative emotion and it'sgoing to basically tip the
scales in the conversationbefore it even happens.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that.
I'm glad you brought it up,though, and, for example, I see
a lot of my friends on the leftand I think this is what you're
talking about, let me know ifI'm wrong that refuse to accept
(12:39):
or respect anything that someoneon the right says, because they
feel like that person voted forsomeone who has claimed that
they want to do harm to someonethey love an immigrant, a woman
of childbearing age, a member ofthe LGBT community how do we
(12:59):
get past that?
Is that what you were talkingabout?
With the passion or the With?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
the passion or the, the generalization and the bias,
right.
Yeah, I mean, that's a perfectexample and I'm seeing that also
.
I'm seeing that quite a bit.
I'm seeing friends who won'ttalk to their high school
friends because they voted forsomebody on the other side, and
family members unable to speak.
How do you get past it?
(13:28):
The first question is, I mean,it's a very complex question but
there's a lot of answers and inthe workshops that we're
providing, we're seeing a lot ofprofound impacts on a positive
basis.
And the first question is youknow what's the goal of the
conversation?
You know, I guess let's justtake it at the beginning, which
is some people don't even wantto have that conversation.
(13:51):
Let's say, it's with a highschool friend that they were
friendly with and now they don'teven want to talk to them, they
unfriend them or they don'twant to engage.
Now I guess the question arisesversus what would be the goal
that you could have with thisconversation.
And there's a lot of goals forconversation, you know.
One could be simply to connectwith that person, that friend
(14:12):
that you have, you know.
The other could be to actually,you know, understand that other
person, you know, have empathy,just so you can understand how
people different from you thinkand just connect to that.
That's a noble goal right um,well, I mean, I I think it's a
very healthy goal and we'll talkabout in a workshop, uh, how
(14:33):
we're accomplishing that and howwe can all do that, because how
cool is it if that, if we couldtake different opinions that we
disagree with.
That we actually look atnegatively and maybe we think
we're harmful, and instead ofhaving a negative emotional
state, we have a more curiousinquisitive state and we
(14:57):
actually learn what is going onin their minds.
So one way to get around.
And just back to your questionhow about a simple question that
somebody from the left whodoesn't want to hear from a
Trump supporter let's assumeit's a friend of theirs.
How you handle strangers andcasual acquaintances and good
(15:18):
friends will be different, butlet's assume it's a high school
friend that you have arelationship with.
Sure, how about simply askingthe question of why did you vote
for Donald Trump?
Now, a lot of them don't evenwant to even get there because
they're so emotionally caught upin.
If you voted for Trump, you'rea bad person.
(15:41):
And my response to those peopleis don't you want to know why
your friend voted?
Don't you want to understandthem better?
I mean, maybe it's a reasonthat you'll think is appropriate
or proper or fine, just likewhy not ask the question?
(16:07):
A lot of people are afraid ofhearing the answer.
But how can you be afraid ofunderstanding your high school
buddy?
You know what's going on intheir mind and you know, and
people on the left are thinkingif you voted for Trump, you're
probably in favor of January 6th, then you're authoritarian.
But no, that is an outrageousgeneralization.
You know, very few people whovoted for Trump believe that
(16:29):
January 6th was a good thing.
Very few people think that hischaracter is impeccable.
Very few Trump supporters thinkthat authoritarianism is the
proper way for our society to gopolitically in the future.
And if you can sort of getbeyond those generalizations,
just say why talk to me more?
(16:50):
You know?
So we work on curiosity.
We work on, you know, curiousinquiry, just to understand
other people and ask curiousquestions okay, I was going to
ask about that.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Is that a curious question?
It is a curious questionbecause I've a curious question,
because I've heard that before,I've heard that term and it
seems like a great way to starta conversation.
Why, why did you vote this way?
Whatever way it was, what wouldbe a good follow-up to that?
What do you expect he'll do?
(17:27):
That will be good for you.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Well, sure, but I think you're trying to step
around eggshells.
I mean, I think it's okay to goharder at it.
I think you know again, this isa high school friend, right, you
know?
With a stranger maybe not, butlet's just go back to curious
questions for a second.
Curious questions are questionsdesigned.
Good curious questions aredesigned to understand.
(17:54):
Okay, there's bad curiousquestions.
You know questions such asdon't you think that the you
know he will do this, you knowplaces people on the defensive,
puts him in a corner.
That's not a good curiousquestion.
That's a question with a designattached to it and the design
is not to understand A goodcurious question.
(18:16):
You just want to understand themmore.
You want to understand theirthoughts, their feelings, their
beliefs, their experiences,their priorities.
You just really want to connectTo me.
Conversation.
The benefits of conversationand curious conversation are to
connect with somebody Because,at the end of the day, we are
social animals.
We want to feel good about eachother.
(18:36):
We want to connect, even if wedisagree.
Why you vote for Trump could beand you can go right at it.
It's like aren't you concernedabout his character?
Aren't you concerned that youknow kindergarten kids will look
at him and think that that isnot the type of character that
(18:58):
should be in a president?
Are you concerned with hisappointments?
Are you concerned that thiswill happen?
Do you believe he hasauthoritarian tendencies?
Do you you know?
Are you concerned about hislack of expertise in foreign
affairs?
It's okay, depending upon youraudience, to ask these questions
(19:19):
and because the goal to me andthe workshops we're giving is to
connect with others by askingcurious questions, because
you're respecting and notjudging the other person.
So if I'm respecting you, if mytone tone is so important is
(19:40):
like you know, you know, sothink about this question.
One tone that is positive, youknow, tone one's a negative, you
know, are you concerned abouthis character or are you
concerned about his character?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
There's a huge difference in those two.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Huge difference.
One is annoyed it's negativeenergy, it's putting somebody in
the corner and the other one islike I really need to know.
Maybe you can help me because Iam concerned.
So one of the benefits ofcurious questions is number one
you're connecting with someone,you're not judging them.
Number two you're learning moreabout what they think and your
(20:20):
questions may help them refinewhat they're thinking, and I'm
not suggesting that should bethe goal, but your questions and
their answers may help yourethink and understand better
how you think about the issue.
It's really great information.
You're connecting all the waythrough and you're bonding and
you're finding a lot of timespeople we found in our workshops
(20:41):
, when people talk to each otherwith curiosity, when they
disagree, they find so manyelements of connection and
commonality that they walk awayfrom the conversation that like
they feel good about it.
They feel like, wow, that was agood conversation that they
never thought they could have.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, right, I think another thing that a lot of us
do, um is that when we'relistening and I think I'm guilty
of this, I know I'm guilty ofit, there's no think about it Is
that we're not listening tounderstand, we're listening to
(21:21):
respond.
I think in my head I'm going Iknow what this guy's going to
say when I ask this question andI'm going to get it when he
gets.
Oh, I wonder how that came out.
I'm going I know what thisguy's going to say when I ask
this question and I'm going toget it when he gets.
Oh, I wonder how that came out.
I'm going to get him when heanswers.
And that's kind of dangerous,isn't it?
We need to get away from that.
How can we listen to understandbetter?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Well, yes, we see that all the time and I'm guilty
of it and many people areguilty of that.
It's almost human nature to,when you're talking about a
topic, to think about yourperspective, to protect your
perspective and then engage inthe conversations.
Though you're right, the otherperson is wrong and you're going
(22:05):
to start talking to them tosort of bring them to that
conclusion.
Right, you know you're going tostart talking to them to sort
of bring them to that conclusion.
Right, you know you're going tofail at the first moment.
Right there, we've asked ourstudents this, our college
freshmen.
You know, when you're havingconversations with people, are
you trying to win?
You know what is the goal?
(22:25):
And a lot of them say that no,no, I just want to talk to them
about the issue.
And they said, okay, if youwant to talk to them about the
issue and you don't want it tobe a debate, you have to change
your mindset from questions towin to questions to understand,
(22:46):
and you create a mindset of thegoal is to understand the other
person so that I can walk awaybeing better connected with a
different view.
And and so the first year wedid this workshop with 600
students.
We, we did a workshop that hadthem talk to people and then you
(23:08):
, and then give your ownperspective, maybe find common
ground and compromise, and wefound that was way too much work
to do in a two-hour workshopbecause the students were having
problems just asking curiousquestions.
They couldn't get past the howdo I ask curious questions?
Not to win, but to understand.
So in our workshops we just doa series of exercises.
(23:30):
Your whole goal is to have theright tone to actively listening
, and we talk about activelistening techniques and to ask
curious questions.
And then here's what they do wegive them a tepid question like
ask the other person why theywent to this school and this is
Binghamton University wherewe're doing this program my alma
mater and the goal is ask tounderstand, not to win.
(23:55):
In this case there's reallynothing to win and we've already
gone over what tone, bodylanguage, eye contact, we've
talked about.
When somebody speaks, youparaphrase.
We've talked about whensomebody speaks, you paraphrase.
So active listening techniqueslike paraphrasing or reframing,
so that you're telling them oh,I heard you.
Oh, in other words, oh, so whatyou're saying is so you're
(24:19):
already out of this mindset ofwinning and you're into I hear
you, is this what you're saying?
You reflect on what they'resaying.
You don't cut them off.
We have what's called a one micrule, where one person speaks
at a time which tells the otherperson I hear you, I'm listening
.
That one mic rule is one of thebiggest things I think that
(24:42):
we've taught students that helpthem get out of the wind,
because as soon as they arelistening and are trying like
about to cut off, they realizeoh no, don't cut off.
My goal is to listen, not torespond.
And then they ask curiousquestions.
We talk about what was acurious question.
It's open-ended, it's notleading or judgmental, it has a
(25:03):
positive framing.
So they actually develop theskill in practice.
And then the other person theyspoke to looks at all these
about 20 skills that we'vetalked about and then grades
them and says here's what I saw,you did generally, what you did
right.
We like to commend what theydid well, so we're now
(25:24):
reinforcing the curiosity.
Then they do another exercisethat's a little bit more
difficult than another one, andthen we get into political and
social issues.
So they actually are practicingover two hours, asking curious
questions not to win and gettingfeedback on how well they did.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
It's amazing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah it's, it'samazing I mean just I mean you
guys are developing a whole newgeneration of good listeners and
good communicators, I thinkwould you agree I think so.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
I mean I love hanging out with people in their 20s
because they're incredibly smart.
I mean a lot has been writtenabout Gen Z and their anxiety,
the amount of information theyhave available, their intense
(26:31):
curiosity.
I think they are.
I believe in Gen Z as to bringus through this very complicated
society that we have in thefuture and I share that with
them.
I want them to have the agencyto feel that they can make a
difference.
And yes, I do feel at least inthese workshops we're making an
(26:52):
impact.
My biggest concern is themaintenance of the behaviors and
that's what we're working onnext year, because you can do
something in two hours andeverybody walks away and says,
wow, I learned a skill, but arethey using that skill?
And that is a great concern tome of behavior modification, how
you change behavior on anongoing basis.
And we're working on follow-upexercises, journaling and other
(27:17):
opportunities where the studentscan actually have these
behaviors reinforced.
And at Binghamton we're tryingto create a culture at the
campus where it's reinforcedwith the faculty etc for
somebody like myself who's notgoing to school anymore.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Um, how do these things become common practice?
What can, can I do?
Is it just being aware, whenyou're having a conversation, to
ask curious questions and topracticing listening, to
understand?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
I think, a mindset of .
I want to understand peoplethat voted differently or think
differently before I startengaging with my perspective and
what commonality and commonground we have, because those
(28:18):
are more advanced energies thatyou need a foundation.
So people, before they starttalking about well, you know
where they differ, where theyagree and maybe where there's
common ground, there has to be afoundation of understanding and
respect.
So the skills I'm talking aboutjust are those preliminary
(28:38):
skills of just and if you justtry that right now and you know
we've talked about left and theright, but we should talk the
right to the left, I mean, youknow, and the right has, you
know, has the exact same.
You know opportunities andissues and obstacles, you know,
and very fair conversations arepeople.
(28:58):
The right to the left is like,you know, the candidate that you
were voting for.
You know she changed from farleft to moderate left, at least
that's what I thought.
What did you think about that?
How do you feel about?
You know, politicians justchanging based on the tone and
tenor.
So we have talked about mostlyone side to another, but it's
bilateral.
But I think step one is juststart practicing being
(29:23):
comfortable talking to peopleyou disagree with, just to
understand what they're thinkingabout.
And, by the way, this relatesto with your partner, with your
spouse, with your kids, withyour coworkers, and this isn't
just social or political issues.
If somebody has an issue withsomething that you did, instead
of getting defensive, instead ofleading with your emotions,
(29:46):
just saying, wow, tell me whatyour thoughts are.
And this is basic maritaltherapy 101, but a lot of us
just don't do it, which is, oh,tell me more.
What's your concern?
How did it impact you?
Why do you feel that way?
What can I do differently?
Which is not easy to do, but isenormously simple.
(30:10):
And enormously effective if youwant to have a healthy
relationship.
During my master's program inpositive psychology at
University of Pennsylvania, oneof our lecturers was Isaac
Proletensky, who was the leadingresearcher in the world on
mattering, and his philosophiesthat are well-written,
(30:30):
researched and supported is thatwe need to matter for human
flourishing.
And mattering was we feelvalued and we feel we give value
.
The number one way to feelvalued, to tell somebody that
they have value, is to look atthem in the eyes and ask them
(30:52):
why do you feel that way?
Tell me more.
So I mean in terms of societalharmony, not just the
relationship of the two people,but if that can be endemic to
our society, that's a beautifulthing.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yes, it is Absolutely .
You've given us a lot to chewon here, bill, but I wanted to
ask you before I let you goabout Braver Angels.
I went on their websiteyesterday and I took one of
their courses.
It's a self-take course.
(31:27):
That seems like an amazingorganization.
How did you get involved withthem?
I?
Speaker 2 (31:35):
heard David Brooks give a speech in 2016, after
Trump first got elected aboutthe Polarization Society and he
mentioned there are someorganizations out there.
You mentioned Braver Angels.
I got very excited, I learnedabout them, I became a moderator
and then I took their contentto Binghamton to beta test it.
(31:56):
And they have this greatprogram where one of the
workshops is they teach the LAPskills L-A-P-P so that when you
talk to somebody, you disagreewith you, practice L-A-P-P you
listen, you acknowledge, youpivot and then you give your
perspective.
(32:16):
So and I did some betaworkshops on that and they
weren't, in my mind, developedspecifically for college
students number one and numbertwo.
I thought it was too much to doin one workshop.
So I looked at their listeningand acknowledging and I said how
(32:39):
can we create better listeners?
And then the Binghamton ProjectI created the Civil Dialogue
Project at Binghamton University, which is these workshops we've
been talking about, was bornout of that and we use some
Braver Angel techniques.
We use some techniques fromJonathan Haidt, his work.
He has the ConstructiveDialogue Institute and he's a
(33:03):
brilliant social scientist andhe just wrote the book the
Anxious Generation.
He's a leading force forgetting cell phones out of
schools because of the negativeimpact on Gen Z.
So we take some of his work andthen other social scientists
and then we form them.
But Braver Angels is agroundswell organization that
(33:24):
has chapters in cities, countiesand states all over the country
.
They are a positively impactingsociety.
If you just Google BraverAngels you'll see they're in the
press because of the workthey're doing and it's
mind-blowing and it's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, I'll include a link to their website, as well
as yours, in the show notes.
You've given us a lot to thinkabout, bill, and I appreciate it
, and I hope that we can all goforward from here and we don't
always have to agree.
We don't always have to agree,but if we listen and give the
(34:05):
other person the respect oflistening, I think we'll be a
lot better off.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Mike, I think every conversation that we have with
another person is an opportunityfor a positive connection and a
positive result.
Every opportunity.
Sure, that's idealistic, but Ithink it can help frame
virtually every interaction.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for the giftof your time, Bill.
I do appreciate it, and we'regoing to have to do this again.
Go into it a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Love to to Mike, and thank you for your amazing work.
I'm familiar with your podcast.
I think kindness, love, respectare all integrally created, you
know, integrated, and they are,you know, what humanity should
be.
So thank you for your work.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
You're very welcome, take care.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
You too Bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
I want to thank you for taking this time to listen
to this episode with my guest,Bill Groner, and I hope that
you're able to take somethingpositive from the time that you
spent here today.
I hope that you can use thetools that Bill laid out to go
out and have meaningfulconversations with others that
(35:31):
maybe before you couldn't.
Maybe you'll be inspired, Maybeyou'll be motivated, Maybe
you'll be moved.
If you experienced any of thosepositive feelings, please
consider sharing this podcastwith your friends and family.
Also, feel free to follow us onall of our socials like
Facebook, Instagram, LinkedInand TikTok.
(35:54):
This podcast is part of theMayday Media Network.
If you have an idea for apodcast and need some production
assistance, or have a podcastand are looking for a supportive
network to join, check outmaydaymedianetworkcom and check
out the many different shows,like Afrocentric Spoiled, my
Movie Generation Mixtape In aPickle Radio Show, Wake Up and
(36:18):
Dream with D Anthony Palin,Staxo Pax and their newest Time
Pals podcast.
We'll be back again next weekwith a new episode and we would
be honored if you would join us.
You've been listening to theKindness Matters podcast.
I'm your host, Mike Rathbun.
Have a fantastic week.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com