February 13, 2025 • 31 mins
Struggling with math anxiety isn't just a childhood challenge—it's a widespread issue affecting many adults, and I'm no stranger to it myself. Join me as I sit down with Sabina Dallmeyer, a seasoned expert in tackling math anxiety, to uncover how this often-misunderstood fear can shape life choices and limit career paths. Through our conversation, we explore the powerful link between math anxiety and test anxiety, as well as the societal and educational pressures that perpetuate these fears. Sabina shares practical resources like math anxiety screeners, offering hope and strategies for anyone looking to address their anxieties and change their relationship with math.
Our discussion doesn't stop at anxiety; we also navigate the broader implications of how math education is traditionally structured. From early academic tracking to cultural attitudes about math ability, we examine how these factors can limit opportunities and foster a culture where it's acceptable to shy away from math. Sabina and I delve into the life skills math education can cultivate, such as resilience and persistence, and how overcoming math anxiety can serve as a metaphor for facing life's most daunting challenges. With an emphasis on kindness, empathy, and the importance of continuous learning, this episode invites listeners to reconsider math as more than just numbers and equations, but as a path to personal growth and empowerment.
#math #anxiety #tutor
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hello there and welcome.
You are listening to theKindness Matters podcast and I
am your host, mike Rathbun.
What is this podcast all about?
It's about kindness.
It's a pushback againsteverything negative that we see
in the news and on social mediatoday, and it's a way to
(00:20):
highlight people, organizationsthat are simply striving to make
their little corner of theworld a little better place.
If you want to join in on theconversation, feel free, Go
ahead and follow us on all ofyour social media feeds.
We're on Facebook, instagram,tiktok.
We're even on LinkedIn underMike Rathbun.
(00:42):
Check us out.
We're even on LinkedIn underMike Rathbun.
Check us out.
And, in the meantime, so sitback, relax, enjoy and we'll get
into the Kindness Matterspodcast.
Hey, welcome to the showeverybody.
Thank you so much for takingthe 30 minutes or what have you
out of your day To listen tothis little podcast.
(01:05):
I really, really appreciate itand, as always, if there's
something in this podcast thatmoves you or inspires you or
motivates you, please feel freeto share it with your friends
and family and, of course,follow us on all of our socials.
Those links will be in the shownotes.
(01:27):
I'm going to start off today bytelling you a story.
It's a story of a little boywho did not like math very much
and he spent hours and hours andhours at his kitchen table with
his mom or his dad and just notunderstanding math and getting
(01:50):
frustrated to the point where hewould actually get physically
ill if he had math class thenext day at school.
And full disclosure.
That little boy is me, butthankfully we have as our guest
today somebody who helps peopleget over that, and it's
(02:14):
something.
Okay, I'll just.
My guest today is SabinaDahlmeyer, and she is that
person.
Welcome to the show, sabina.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I love being that person.
You are that person.
Welcome to the show, Sabina.
Thank you so much.
I love being that person.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
You are that person and there's an actual name for
this right.
It's called math anxiety.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Math anxiety.
So when I say that term, peoplereally immediately know whether
it's something they'veexperienced, and up to 93% of
adults say they've experiencedit.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Shut up.
That's a lot.
That's like almost everybody.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
That's what I say.
It's almost everybody Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And so, okay, this is not something that there is a
medication for, obviously.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
No, it is closely related to test anxiety.
And there is many people do forsure.
So it is separate from likeschool anxiety or school
avoidance, and those aregenerally recognized in the
mental health field.
Math anxiety is generally justwhat it sounds like it's when
(03:21):
you think you might have to domath or when you will have to do
math and you start to maybeyour heart races or maybe you
get nauseous or maybe you justkind of had that fear and dread.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Yeah, I, okay.
So I play these games on my lap, on my, my, my tablet, and it's
supposed to be designed forseniors, to help increase your
cognizant, whatever.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
And and they do have a section on math where you have
to do like percentages, likeabsolutely freak out, my palms
get sweaty, have you, I'm okaywith simple addition and
subtraction, maybe somemultiplication, a little light
division, but after that forsure, and there are so many
(04:07):
people that the the concern thatI have is math anxiety limits
people's career choices.
Even people will choose theirmath, their university or their
major based on how much math isrequired.
When you go to Google you startsearching how much math?
It'll'll say how much math doyou need to go into, like fields
like mental health, where wereally need people, and people
(04:30):
are too concerned to enter anyof those fields because they're
afraid of how much math they'llhave to do, which is wild to me
so somebody who might be areally good at at mental health
or helping people with mentalhealth might not go into that
career choice because of howmuch math they need.
Exactly, and we're not exactlysure where math anxiety comes
(04:51):
from, but we know that positivemath experiences can combat it.
So I imagine that you'retalking about some mean math
teachers that you've had.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Or my parents, either or.
But that's a whole other lineof discussion.
That's maybe another show.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
So why do you think that people are so anxious about
doing math?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So for a lot of the things that you discuss
frequently on your show, right,there is a lack of empathy
between people and people canreally struggle.
So we know in general there'san epidemic of anxiety In
general.
The Surgeon General has evenput out a memo on the topic,
especially of youth mentalhealth.
Anxiety is a huge problem.
So, and I do believe a lot ofthat comes from lack of
(05:43):
connection, lack of affirmation,lack of kindness between one
another.
And so I think in math peoplecan be risk averse, right.
They can be afraid of beingwrong, so therefore they avoid
math, like you are talking aboutin your app.
Maybe you avoid math, or ifyou're a student, you leave that
math assignment to last.
Then what that results in isless practice with math.
(06:05):
So then you're less able to domath because you avoid math, and
then it's kind of aself-fulfilling prophecy, right?
Speaker 1 (06:11):
You become a poor math student and horrible at
math.
You tell yourself that and thenyou are.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Wow, and so this can be a lifelong thing, right?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I mean, it starts when you're trying to learn your
multiplication tables and itjust follows you the rest of the
way through life yeah, if youstart googling, there's several
different like measures, liketests you know that you can take
online, and there's some allthe way down to elementary
school age where they're calledmath anxiety screeners and I can
(06:48):
probably link some in the shownotes for your listeners math
anxiety screeners that go allthe way down to elementary and
all the way up.
And there is a lot of concernabout math anxiety showing up in
those young ages because we'renot sure where it's coming from,
because if you're having mathanxiety in kindergarten and
first grade, that is probablynot from lack of ability.
(07:10):
There's something else thereRight?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, and I'm not here to knock parents, but I
know when my kids were in schooland they would come home with
math and why do they?
Okay, I'm diverting here.
It was always a strugglebecause I was not good at it,
(07:39):
probably because I told myself Iwasn't good at it when I was
younger and my kids would comehome and they'd go.
I need help with this and I'dpoint at my wife there's your
answer right over there, and butthey change math, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, no, you're right.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
But they change how they teach it.
Yes, the new math.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
This is a big, big interesting thing for those of
us who are geeky about ourprofession.
So, math teachers definitelythere was the new math and this
and it's happened again.
You know common core math isthe way people talk about it.
The ways that they teach mathin school and the methods that
they use do change, but mathtextbooks do not go out of date
(08:24):
the same way that a sciencetextbook would.
Right, so the math concepts arethe same, the methods we're
using to find answers aredifferent and the level of
conceptual connection that areexpected from students that's
different.
There is so much it's calledthe math wars, there's so much
disagreement about how mathshould be taught, and I do think
(08:44):
you're right.
It has bred distrust betweenparents and the school system,
or parents and math.
They say, oh well, that's notthe way I was taught, I can't
help you.
Instead of my antidote that Ilove to recommend to people, my
secret weapon against mathanxiety is curiosity.
So instead of saying I wonder,or can you explain it to me?
(09:06):
Or let's look, just thecuriosity I always say, that's
what makes people walk down thedark hall in a horror movie.
Right, your curiosityoverpowers your anxiety.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Right, yeah, for sure .
So, basically, when our kidsare coming home and presenting
us with new math, new math, Yep.
With math and they're learningit differently than we are or
(09:39):
than we did.
You're saying we should just becurious.
So basically they're teachingboth of us at the same time.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Well, here's what I think I have.
I talk to hundreds of parentsevery year on this topic
hundreds.
It's something I love to talkabout, I can't stop talking
about it and I think the valueis connection right.
So if I was tutoring a studentworking on long division which I
(10:06):
can hear the groans from here,long division is a sticking
point for many people and theway that they've taught people
to do it over the years haschanged and I was if I was
working with a young student andmom was saying, well, that's
not the way I was taught, Imight ask mom to show well, how
were you taught?
And we can model some thingsand we can try to find
(10:28):
similarities between the twoways.
It's not wrong to teach yourchildren the way that you were
taught.
Definitely, show them that andsee if you can draw the
connections.
And I will give you a hint Mostof the time, what they're
trying to get at is place value.
I just want you to understandplace value, but it's, it's.
There's so much commonalitythat I think you just have to
(10:48):
resist the urge to kind of tenseup and fight, just if you can
just stay curious and I wonder,oh, I wonder, what they're doing
here instead of no.
This is wrong, and that's agreat philosophy for many areas
of life that's a greatphilosophy for many areas of
life.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
That's a great philosophy, yes, in general for
life.
And you know, I think it was mymath anxiety.
It got to a point because, youknow, as you move along from
grade to grade, you're gettingmore and different and more
difficult math, difficult math,and I actively avoided taking
(11:31):
any kind.
I didn't take calculus, Ididn't take trigonometry.
I'm pretty sure I had to takealgebra, but it's like
childbirth, my brain hasforgotten it.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Oh, what a great, what a great way to describe it.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
What a great way to describe it.
And so you know that probablyhindered my professional
development or my career, orwhat have you.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
For sure, and actually this is very observable
, and this is the topic ofactually lots of legislation
there's laws trying to passdifferent things about that of
actually lots of legislation.
There's laws trying to passdifferent things about that.
I'll say so, math avoidance,which is what you're talking
about, is, I think, the numberone symptom of math anxiety.
So a lot of times this isactually particularly pronounced
(12:17):
with students who have beenlabeled as gifted or smart kids,
right?
So if you get put in those highlevel classes in elementary and
middle school, then you're muchless likely to take high level
math in high school.
And I think it comes down toright.
Why would I take calculus andget a C when I could take
personal finance and get an A?
(12:38):
Don't take the risk, even if itmay be beneficial, because
there is other research tosuggest that the number of math
classes you take in college isthe best predictor of your
future salary.
So I think we're really cuttingoff some possibilities here.
I always tell my strongstudents I say you know math has
(13:01):
a lot.
Of math can make a way.
You can find a very high paying, low stress job if you're
willing to engage with math,because many people are not.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Huh, that's interesting, and so now I guess
we never even really discussedit Is what is your, your
professional role?
Are you?
You're a teacher?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I am.
I'm a math teacher.
I just happen to really befascinated by the topic of math
anxiety and teaching, so I loveI work with students who have
experienced math failure in thepast, usually on a big state
test with a lot of anxiety, andI coach them.
I always say I want to get themoff the sidelines and back in
(13:41):
the game.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I'm trying to think back and Idon't.
I don't think we hadstandardized tests when I was
going to school like they dotoday.
You know, mcats is that?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Is that one of them?
That's one of the tests.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
The tests are all different in every state but
even something like an exam or afinal exam, they carried more
weight before standardizedtesting and the way that that
developed was different in everystate.
So, yeah, those testingcheckpoints, they can kind of be
like points in the map, right.
They can kind of be like littleor buoys in the ocean, we'll
(14:27):
say place markers that help.
You know like that's how I feltat that time.
Or it can have a big memoryeffect.
You see in the old moviespeople working on like these big
paper packets that they had torip open and complete these big
tests.
Yes, yes, and the heightenedanxiety there, some of it comes
(14:47):
from the rigidness that math issometimes taught very rigidly.
You have to stay, you have tothink this way and I remember
one of the most hurtful thingsthat was ever said to me as a
person is what a stupid thing tothink.
And I think in math sometimespeople will get the idea that
I'm thinking, the way I'mthinking about something is
wrong and that's just hard torecover from.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
It really is, because that has the potential to limit
you for a long, long time.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Into adulthood.
Mm-hmm, yeah, I'm not going togo there, I'm not going to get
on that couch gonna get on thatit is.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Oh gosh, man, it gets deep, don't worry.
I have been on phone calls withmany a tearful adult when I
discuss math anxiety yeah, andso now is there a particular
standardized?
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Now is there a particular standardized, okay,
so when you're in eighth grade,you learn this math, and when
you're in ninth grade, you learnthat math Is that standard.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, it's funny that you bring that up because in
part of my job I read standardsfrom all across the country.
Because I just am obsessed withthis kind of stuff, I've boiled
them down a little bit to makesome checklists for each grade
that I sell to homeschoolfamilies.
It's part of my job and part ofwhat I do and it's very
interesting because this issomething that's actually
debated and parents may befamiliar with this, but many
people are not.
So sometimes when you're youngyou get tracked, which is you're
(16:28):
either labeled as a highachieving student or a low
achieving student, and thatdetermination in America in
general is made in fifth grade.
So generally when you're 12,your teacher is going to kind of
decide how far you get to goacademically, and that sounds
dramatic, but it's not reallyvery dramatic.
(16:48):
It's actually pretty close totrue.
Yeah, and so I feel bad for kidswho are having a rough go at
life at that particular juncturebecause it can really impact
their academic opportunity.
Now there are laws that aretrying to change this especially
.
They're like top front pagenews in California.
They're really fighting thisout in that state, but in my
(17:09):
state as well in Virginia therewas a lot of talk about that
when our new governor tookoffice, and so generally the big
one is Algebra 1, right,algebra 1 is called the gateway
to higher math.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
It's a gateway math.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It is a gateway math and the placement of that class
is very important.
So generally students are giventhat class in ninth grade.
But if you have Algebra 1,geometry, algebra 2,
pre-calculus, then that onlyleaves those four years and you
can't get to calculus in highschool.
So then there's the fight aboutputting algebra one in eighth
(17:48):
grade so that people have theopportunity to get to calculus.
And the pressure that manypeople feel from their parents,
I think is for those kinds ofreasons.
They're looking at what you canachieve, they're maybe
comparing you to their friends'children and there's a lot of
pressure to achieve in math.
But I think people feelintimidated about the subject
(18:11):
matter.
But they know how smart quotesmart someone sounds if they're
in calculus.
So I think there's this kind ofwell.
First of all, in societythere's just you're allowed to
be bad at math.
No one makes fun of you forbeing bad at math.
People can make jokes aboutbeing bad at math all day long,
but if your child is good atmath it's a bragging point.
(18:33):
So there's these odd societalforces that are in play here
that make it just veryintimidating.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
This goes a lot deeper than just math.
Is hard very intimidating.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
This goes a lot deeper than just math is hard,
oh yeah, Math is politicized,Math is gatekept, etc.
Etc.
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
But okay.
So now, when I was growing up,I remember and nothing has
changed.
Really, I don't think I willnever use algebra in my daily
life.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Well, what I say to my students who ask me that
question all the time is youknow what life is hard, and I
would love for you to learn thatyou can do hard things.
So if you feel like math isthis insurmountable mountain,
then I would be honored to watchyou climb that mountain.
And how safe is it?
You're not going to die, you'renot going to get injured doing
(19:31):
math, okay, so if math is thehardest thing for you and I hear
that from parents and studentsoften like I can do anything
except for math, then, oh, mygoodness, what would it mean if
you could do math too?
You could do anything.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
You'd be unstoppable.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
You'd be unstoppable.
So when I get that, thequestions that I hear a lot from
teachers and students andparents is about cheating.
You know how can I stop mystudents from cheating?
And then also about when am Iever going to use this.
Those are like twoconversations.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I have a lot Number one, number two, depending on
the day.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, depending on the audience.
But one thing that I alwayshave about when am I going to
use this?
First of all, right now, isyour real life.
You're using it right now, soyou're going to use it to get
yourself ahead academically,because math can make a way.
And then number two like I said, this is my poster behind me.
Math is tough, but so are you.
I want you to learn that you cando hard things, and I would
(20:29):
rather you learn it in mathclass than you learn it in your
first difficult relationship.
Right, you know you might thinkyou know, when you learn that
you can do hard things, then youcan have that hard conversation
.
Or in your first job when youneed to ask for a raise or you
need to ask for betterconditions or accommodations,
like I want you to learn thatyou're strong.
I have students who have failedthe test that I'm preparing
(20:53):
them for six, seven, eight, nine, 10 times.
So for them to be able tosucceed and pass the test.
That's significant, that is amilestone for them and I love to
coach them through that.
And then, on the flip side ofthat coin, cheating.
People are always trying tomake a cheat proof test.
Well, let me tell you, no suchthing.
Stop students from cheating isto have them value the material.
(21:22):
That it's worth learning andit's a tough sell in math.
So that's why I have to comeabout it in a way that when I
understand what math anxiety isdoing to your brain, it's making
it more difficult for you to domath.
So let's acknowledge that, getsome tools to move past that and
then let's see what you coulddo.
Let's see if you can proveyourself to yourself, and that
comes in with grading practicesand all kinds of things like
(21:43):
that.
But as an adult, I just want tospeak to the adults First.
Math anxiety can get passed downvery, very easily.
So if you have math anxiety asan adult, it is worth it for you
to jump on a platform likebrilliantorg or Khan Academy and
just engage with some math.
Buy a math book, buy abiography of a famous
(22:06):
mathematician, find a way in sothat you're not passing down
that math anxiety to yourchildren.
And then there are so manypeople who really are so frozen
when math concept comes up.
It becomes socially isolating.
It can become challenging atthe grocery store or at a
restaurant or even in personalbusiness.
(22:28):
And I just want everyone toknow that you can start at any
time.
Just because you're not in mathclass.
I highly encourage you to finda way to engage with math,
because that is the best way toeliminate math anxiety is to
engage with math nice, that'sgreat.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, I um.
Yeah, it's, and oftentimes, andespecially for for somebody
like myself, I'm like I'm tooold, I can't do that now.
That's just an excuse.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Oh, it's so beautiful , it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Math is beautiful.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, it is.
There's some really interestingthings.
I'll tell a great story that Ilove this is why it is valuable
to talk about things that aredifficult.
Right, that's one element ofkindness for sure, Like be
present with someone in theirstruggle.
So that's an amazing way thatparents can frame working on
(23:27):
that math homework too.
And I've also seen the meme.
You know I love you so much.
I learned algebra again.
Like, listen, like, do that,act of love for your children.
But there was a famousmathematician this is the man
who discovered logarithms, whichis a math concept that you
would discuss in higher levelmath in high school, and
(23:49):
everyone thought that he was asorcerer because he just he was
a math guy and math was equatedwith definitely some illegal
activities for a long, long timein history.
So this man had someinteresting habits and one day
he would use his logical brainto solve all kinds of problems.
So there was somebody stealingin his household.
(24:11):
This was many, many, many, manycenturies ago.
So there's someone stealing inhis household and he had all the
workers in his household comeand he had a black cat and he
told everyone that it was hisspirit animal and that it could
speak to him.
And so he put everybody in aroom with the cat and said tell
(24:31):
the cat whether you've beenstealing.
If you pet the cat, then he'llbe able to tell if you're the
thief, so pet the cat and thenthe cat's going to be able to
discern for me which one of youis the thief.
And then everyone came outafter they had their little
appointment with the cat and heknew whoever didn't have the
(24:51):
black paint that he'd put on thecat on their hands was the
thief.
And so he was able to logicallythink his way around that
problem.
Another day he had a peskyneighbor who kept carrier
pigeons, and the pigeons kepteating his barley.
And so he took a bunch ofbarley, soaked it in some
(25:11):
alcohol and put it on the ground.
So then the birds ate it, andthey were too drunk to fly.
So he waited until his neighborcame out.
And when his neighbor came outlooking for his birds, he had a
bag and was picking them up andputting them in the bag.
So he waited until his neighborcame out.
And when his neighbor came outlooking for his birds, he had a
bag and was picking them up andputting them in the bag.
And he thought the neighborthought he had bewitched the
birds.
So being a mathematician, alogitician, you can solve a lot
(25:33):
of problems with your knowledge.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
See, neither of those things sound like math to me.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
He was a deep, deep, logical thinker.
He saw through problems.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Okay, okay, I'll be darned.
So math can make you morelogical.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, and the other part of that story, and why I
love to tell it, is because mathwas discovered, not invented.
So there are people in thisstory who discovered math
concepts that existed in theworld, and if you are someone
who is intimidated by math, Ialways recommend that you try
reading a biography of someonewho's involved in the discovery
(26:15):
of math, because you'll see thehumanity behind it.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Oh sure, oh, you know what All of the names I keep
coming up with are?
I think they're scienceScientists, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Well, there's Sophie Germain, ada Lovelace.
I have a list of some otherpeople.
You can always start withwatching Hidden Figures that
movie I, that movie.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I love that movie yes , that was so good Math made a
way.
How did she know all?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
of that math.
She had to fight for access tothat education, for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, I mean because yeah, and then who is?
Was it Janelle Monae'scharacter that went to the judge
to ask to go to high?
Speaker 2 (27:09):
school.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Just so she could go to college, because that was the
only way she was going to getahead.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yes, yeah, there's.
I mean that's.
There's stories like that allover math.
Ada Lovelace was like the firstcomputer programmer and she was
a very young girl, and so tofind out about the way that math
made a way for some of thesepeople, very interesting.
The first woman to constructand fly her own plane there's a
(27:37):
picture book about her.
Very interesting.
Similarly, she had to get awealthy benefactor to allow her
into school because there's apicture book about her.
Very interesting.
Similarly, she had to get awealthy benefactor to allow her
into school because she was awoman.
Sorry, a lot of the people whocome to mind for me are women,
because those are the people Iread about.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
No, I mean, yeah, that's so cool and that all
happened because of a love and acuriosity for math.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, another more recent one that you can look at
is the first woman to win theFields Medal, and I'll leave it
to your listeners to Google thefirst woman who went to win the
Fields Medal, which is theequivalent to the Nobel Prize in
the world of math, and she hadhuge social influence.
So I love when you said none ofthat sounds like math.
(28:23):
When you start to look, you'dbe surprised how much impact
math has on culture, society,politics, education, income,
finance.
It's all there.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Whoa politics, oh yeah.
Well, Sabina, it has beenabsolutely wonderful talking to
you.
I I now I'm gonna go find abiography of was it anna
lovelace?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
ada lovelace?
Ada, yes, and sophie germain isalso very interesting sophie
Germain.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Okay, I'm going to go find it and I'm going to read
it, and I don't know if I willfall in love with math.
But as Ted Lasso says, becurious, not judgmental.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
And that's what I'm going to do, and I hope our
listeners were too.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show today.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yes, thank you so much for having me.
I love talking about math andkindness and compassion.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Fantastic.
Take care and we will talk soon.
I want to thank you for takingthis time to listen to this
episode with my guest, sabinaDahlmeier.
I hope that you were able totake something positive from
this time that you spent with usand maybe you'll be inspired,
maybe you'll be motivated, maybeyou'll be moved to take another
(29:52):
math class.
If you experienced any of thosepositive feelings, please
consider sharing this podcastwith your friends and family.
I'm always striving to offeryou a better podcast and product
, so give me some feedback, letme know how you think I'm doing.
Email me, leave me a message onmy socials.
It would mean the world Also.
(30:13):
Feel free to follow us on oursocials like Facebook, instagram
, linkedin and TikTok Facebook,instagram, linkedin and TikTok.
This podcast is part of theMayday Media Network.
If you have an idea for apodcast and need some production
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(30:35):
and check out the many differentshows like Afrocentric Spoil,
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We will be back again next weekwith a new episode and we would
be honored if you would join us.
(30:56):
You've been listening to theKindness Matters Podcast.
I'm your host, mike Rathbun.
Have a fantastic week.
Well, hello there and welcome.
You are listening to theKindness Matters podcast and I
am your host, mike Rathbun.
What is this podcast all about?
It's about kindness.
It's a pushback againsteverything negative that we see
in the news and on social mediatoday, and it's a way to
(00:20):
highlight people, organizationsthat are simply striving to make
their little corner of theworld a little better place.
If you want to join in on theconversation, feel free, Go
ahead and follow us on all ofyour social media feeds.
We're on Facebook, instagram,tiktok.
We're even on LinkedIn underMike Rathbun.
(00:42):
Check us out.
We're even on LinkedIn underMike Rathbun.
Check us out.
And, in the meantime, so sitback, relax, enjoy and we'll get
into the Kindness Matterspodcast.
Hey, welcome to the showeverybody.
Thank you so much for takingthe 30 minutes or what have you
out of your day To listen tothis little podcast.
(01:05):
I really, really appreciate itand, as always, if there's
something in this podcast thatmoves you or inspires you or
motivates you, please feel freeto share it with your friends
and family and, of course,follow us on all of our socials.
Those links will be in the shownotes.
(01:27):
I'm going to start off today bytelling you a story.
It's a story of a little boywho did not like math very much
and he spent hours and hours andhours at his kitchen table with
his mom or his dad and just notunderstanding math and getting
(01:50):
frustrated to the point where hewould actually get physically
ill if he had math class thenext day at school.
And full disclosure.
That little boy is me, butthankfully we have as our guest
today somebody who helps peopleget over that, and it's
(02:14):
something.
Okay, I'll just.
My guest today is SabinaDahlmeyer, and she is that
person.
Welcome to the show, sabina.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I love being that person.
You are that person.
Welcome to the show, Sabina.
Thank you so much.
I love being that person.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
You are that person and there's an actual name for
this right.
It's called math anxiety.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Math anxiety.
So when I say that term, peoplereally immediately know whether
it's something they'veexperienced, and up to 93% of
adults say they've experiencedit.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Shut up.
That's a lot.
That's like almost everybody.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
That's what I say.
It's almost everybody Wow.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And so, okay, this is not something that there is a
medication for, obviously.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
No, it is closely related to test anxiety.
And there is many people do forsure.
So it is separate from likeschool anxiety or school
avoidance, and those aregenerally recognized in the
mental health field.
Math anxiety is generally justwhat it sounds like it's when
(03:21):
you think you might have to domath or when you will have to do
math and you start to maybeyour heart races or maybe you
get nauseous or maybe you justkind of had that fear and dread.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Yeah, I, okay.
So I play these games on my lap, on my, my, my tablet, and it's
supposed to be designed forseniors, to help increase your
cognizant, whatever.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
And and they do have a section on math where you have
to do like percentages, likeabsolutely freak out, my palms
get sweaty, have you, I'm okaywith simple addition and
subtraction, maybe somemultiplication, a little light
division, but after that forsure, and there are so many
(04:07):
people that the the concern thatI have is math anxiety limits
people's career choices.
Even people will choose theirmath, their university or their
major based on how much math isrequired.
When you go to Google you startsearching how much math?
It'll'll say how much math doyou need to go into, like fields
like mental health, where wereally need people, and people
(04:30):
are too concerned to enter anyof those fields because they're
afraid of how much math they'llhave to do, which is wild to me
so somebody who might be areally good at at mental health
or helping people with mentalhealth might not go into that
career choice because of howmuch math they need.
Exactly, and we're not exactlysure where math anxiety comes
(04:51):
from, but we know that positivemath experiences can combat it.
So I imagine that you'retalking about some mean math
teachers that you've had.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Or my parents, either or.
But that's a whole other lineof discussion.
That's maybe another show.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
So why do you think that people are so anxious about
doing math?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So for a lot of the things that you discuss
frequently on your show, right,there is a lack of empathy
between people and people canreally struggle.
So we know in general there'san epidemic of anxiety In
general.
The Surgeon General has evenput out a memo on the topic,
especially of youth mentalhealth.
Anxiety is a huge problem.
So, and I do believe a lot ofthat comes from lack of
(05:43):
connection, lack of affirmation,lack of kindness between one
another.
And so I think in math peoplecan be risk averse, right.
They can be afraid of beingwrong, so therefore they avoid
math, like you are talking aboutin your app.
Maybe you avoid math, or ifyou're a student, you leave that
math assignment to last.
Then what that results in isless practice with math.
(06:05):
So then you're less able to domath because you avoid math, and
then it's kind of aself-fulfilling prophecy, right?
Speaker 1 (06:11):
You become a poor math student and horrible at
math.
You tell yourself that and thenyou are.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Wow, and so this can be a lifelong thing, right?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I mean, it starts when you're trying to learn your
multiplication tables and itjust follows you the rest of the
way through life yeah, if youstart googling, there's several
different like measures, liketests you know that you can take
online, and there's some allthe way down to elementary
school age where they're calledmath anxiety screeners and I can
(06:48):
probably link some in the shownotes for your listeners math
anxiety screeners that go allthe way down to elementary and
all the way up.
And there is a lot of concernabout math anxiety showing up in
those young ages because we'renot sure where it's coming from,
because if you're having mathanxiety in kindergarten and
first grade, that is probablynot from lack of ability.
(07:10):
There's something else thereRight?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, and I'm not here to knock parents, but I
know when my kids were in schooland they would come home with
math and why do they?
Okay, I'm diverting here.
It was always a strugglebecause I was not good at it,
(07:39):
probably because I told myself Iwasn't good at it when I was
younger and my kids would comehome and they'd go.
I need help with this and I'dpoint at my wife there's your
answer right over there, and butthey change math, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, no, you're right.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
But they change how they teach it.
Yes, the new math.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
This is a big, big interesting thing for those of
us who are geeky about ourprofession.
So, math teachers definitelythere was the new math and this
and it's happened again.
You know common core math isthe way people talk about it.
The ways that they teach mathin school and the methods that
they use do change, but mathtextbooks do not go out of date
(08:24):
the same way that a sciencetextbook would.
Right, so the math concepts arethe same, the methods we're
using to find answers aredifferent and the level of
conceptual connection that areexpected from students that's
different.
There is so much it's calledthe math wars, there's so much
disagreement about how mathshould be taught, and I do think
(08:44):
you're right.
It has bred distrust betweenparents and the school system,
or parents and math.
They say, oh well, that's notthe way I was taught, I can't
help you.
Instead of my antidote that Ilove to recommend to people, my
secret weapon against mathanxiety is curiosity.
So instead of saying I wonder,or can you explain it to me?
(09:06):
Or let's look, just thecuriosity I always say, that's
what makes people walk down thedark hall in a horror movie.
Right, your curiosityoverpowers your anxiety.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Right, yeah, for sure .
So, basically, when our kidsare coming home and presenting
us with new math, new math, Yep.
With math and they're learningit differently than we are or
(09:39):
than we did.
You're saying we should just becurious.
So basically they're teachingboth of us at the same time.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Well, here's what I think I have.
I talk to hundreds of parentsevery year on this topic
hundreds.
It's something I love to talkabout, I can't stop talking
about it and I think the valueis connection right.
So if I was tutoring a studentworking on long division which I
(10:06):
can hear the groans from here,long division is a sticking
point for many people and theway that they've taught people
to do it over the years haschanged and I was if I was
working with a young student andmom was saying, well, that's
not the way I was taught, Imight ask mom to show well, how
were you taught?
And we can model some thingsand we can try to find
(10:28):
similarities between the twoways.
It's not wrong to teach yourchildren the way that you were
taught.
Definitely, show them that andsee if you can draw the
connections.
And I will give you a hint Mostof the time, what they're
trying to get at is place value.
I just want you to understandplace value, but it's, it's.
There's so much commonalitythat I think you just have to
(10:48):
resist the urge to kind of tenseup and fight, just if you can
just stay curious and I wonder,oh, I wonder, what they're doing
here instead of no.
This is wrong, and that's agreat philosophy for many areas
of life that's a greatphilosophy for many areas of
life.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
That's a great philosophy, yes, in general for
life.
And you know, I think it was mymath anxiety.
It got to a point because, youknow, as you move along from
grade to grade, you're gettingmore and different and more
difficult math, difficult math,and I actively avoided taking
(11:31):
any kind.
I didn't take calculus, Ididn't take trigonometry.
I'm pretty sure I had to takealgebra, but it's like
childbirth, my brain hasforgotten it.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Oh, what a great, what a great way to describe it.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
What a great way to describe it.
And so you know that probablyhindered my professional
development or my career, orwhat have you.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
For sure, and actually this is very observable
, and this is the topic ofactually lots of legislation
there's laws trying to passdifferent things about that of
actually lots of legislation.
There's laws trying to passdifferent things about that.
I'll say so, math avoidance,which is what you're talking
about, is, I think, the numberone symptom of math anxiety.
So a lot of times this isactually particularly pronounced
(12:17):
with students who have beenlabeled as gifted or smart kids,
right?
So if you get put in those highlevel classes in elementary and
middle school, then you're muchless likely to take high level
math in high school.
And I think it comes down toright.
Why would I take calculus andget a C when I could take
personal finance and get an A?
(12:38):
Don't take the risk, even if itmay be beneficial, because
there is other research tosuggest that the number of math
classes you take in college isthe best predictor of your
future salary.
So I think we're really cuttingoff some possibilities here.
I always tell my strongstudents I say you know math has
(13:01):
a lot.
Of math can make a way.
You can find a very high paying, low stress job if you're
willing to engage with math,because many people are not.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Huh, that's interesting, and so now I guess
we never even really discussedit Is what is your, your
professional role?
Are you?
You're a teacher?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I am.
I'm a math teacher.
I just happen to really befascinated by the topic of math
anxiety and teaching, so I loveI work with students who have
experienced math failure in thepast, usually on a big state
test with a lot of anxiety, andI coach them.
I always say I want to get themoff the sidelines and back in
(13:41):
the game.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I'm trying to think back and Idon't.
I don't think we hadstandardized tests when I was
going to school like they dotoday.
You know, mcats is that?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Is that one of them?
That's one of the tests.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
The tests are all different in every state but
even something like an exam or afinal exam, they carried more
weight before standardizedtesting and the way that that
developed was different in everystate.
So, yeah, those testingcheckpoints, they can kind of be
like points in the map, right.
They can kind of be like littleor buoys in the ocean, we'll
(14:27):
say place markers that help.
You know like that's how I feltat that time.
Or it can have a big memoryeffect.
You see in the old moviespeople working on like these big
paper packets that they had torip open and complete these big
tests.
Yes, yes, and the heightenedanxiety there, some of it comes
(14:47):
from the rigidness that math issometimes taught very rigidly.
You have to stay, you have tothink this way and I remember
one of the most hurtful thingsthat was ever said to me as a
person is what a stupid thing tothink.
And I think in math sometimespeople will get the idea that
I'm thinking, the way I'mthinking about something is
wrong and that's just hard torecover from.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
It really is, because that has the potential to limit
you for a long, long time.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Into adulthood.
Mm-hmm, yeah, I'm not going togo there, I'm not going to get
on that couch gonna get on thatit is.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Oh gosh, man, it gets deep, don't worry.
I have been on phone calls withmany a tearful adult when I
discuss math anxiety yeah, andso now is there a particular
standardized?
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Now is there a particular standardized, okay,
so when you're in eighth grade,you learn this math, and when
you're in ninth grade, you learnthat math Is that standard.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, it's funny that you bring that up because in
part of my job I read standardsfrom all across the country.
Because I just am obsessed withthis kind of stuff, I've boiled
them down a little bit to makesome checklists for each grade
that I sell to homeschoolfamilies.
It's part of my job and part ofwhat I do and it's very
interesting because this issomething that's actually
debated and parents may befamiliar with this, but many
people are not.
So sometimes when you're youngyou get tracked, which is you're
(16:28):
either labeled as a highachieving student or a low
achieving student, and thatdetermination in America in
general is made in fifth grade.
So generally when you're 12,your teacher is going to kind of
decide how far you get to goacademically, and that sounds
dramatic, but it's not reallyvery dramatic.
(16:48):
It's actually pretty close totrue.
Yeah, and so I feel bad for kidswho are having a rough go at
life at that particular juncturebecause it can really impact
their academic opportunity.
Now there are laws that aretrying to change this especially
.
They're like top front pagenews in California.
They're really fighting thisout in that state, but in my
(17:09):
state as well in Virginia therewas a lot of talk about that
when our new governor tookoffice, and so generally the big
one is Algebra 1, right,algebra 1 is called the gateway
to higher math.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
It's a gateway math.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
It is a gateway math and the placement of that class
is very important.
So generally students are giventhat class in ninth grade.
But if you have Algebra 1,geometry, algebra 2,
pre-calculus, then that onlyleaves those four years and you
can't get to calculus in highschool.
So then there's the fight aboutputting algebra one in eighth
(17:48):
grade so that people have theopportunity to get to calculus.
And the pressure that manypeople feel from their parents,
I think is for those kinds ofreasons.
They're looking at what you canachieve, they're maybe
comparing you to their friends'children and there's a lot of
pressure to achieve in math.
But I think people feelintimidated about the subject
(18:11):
matter.
But they know how smart quotesmart someone sounds if they're
in calculus.
So I think there's this kind ofwell.
First of all, in societythere's just you're allowed to
be bad at math.
No one makes fun of you forbeing bad at math.
People can make jokes aboutbeing bad at math all day long,
but if your child is good atmath it's a bragging point.
(18:33):
So there's these odd societalforces that are in play here
that make it just veryintimidating.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
This goes a lot deeper than just math.
Is hard very intimidating.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
This goes a lot deeper than just math is hard,
oh yeah, Math is politicized,Math is gatekept, etc.
Etc.
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
But okay.
So now, when I was growing up,I remember and nothing has
changed.
Really, I don't think I willnever use algebra in my daily
life.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Well, what I say to my students who ask me that
question all the time is youknow what life is hard, and I
would love for you to learn thatyou can do hard things.
So if you feel like math isthis insurmountable mountain,
then I would be honored to watchyou climb that mountain.
And how safe is it?
You're not going to die, you'renot going to get injured doing
(19:31):
math, okay, so if math is thehardest thing for you and I hear
that from parents and studentsoften like I can do anything
except for math, then, oh, mygoodness, what would it mean if
you could do math too?
You could do anything.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
You'd be unstoppable.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
You'd be unstoppable.
So when I get that, thequestions that I hear a lot from
teachers and students andparents is about cheating.
You know how can I stop mystudents from cheating?
And then also about when am Iever going to use this.
Those are like twoconversations.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I have a lot Number one, number two, depending on
the day.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, depending on the audience.
But one thing that I alwayshave about when am I going to
use this?
First of all, right now, isyour real life.
You're using it right now, soyou're going to use it to get
yourself ahead academically,because math can make a way.
And then number two like I said, this is my poster behind me.
Math is tough, but so are you.
I want you to learn that you cando hard things, and I would
(20:29):
rather you learn it in mathclass than you learn it in your
first difficult relationship.
Right, you know you might thinkyou know, when you learn that
you can do hard things, then youcan have that hard conversation
.
Or in your first job when youneed to ask for a raise or you
need to ask for betterconditions or accommodations,
like I want you to learn thatyou're strong.
I have students who have failedthe test that I'm preparing
(20:53):
them for six, seven, eight, nine, 10 times.
So for them to be able tosucceed and pass the test.
That's significant, that is amilestone for them and I love to
coach them through that.
And then, on the flip side ofthat coin, cheating.
People are always trying tomake a cheat proof test.
Well, let me tell you, no suchthing.
Stop students from cheating isto have them value the material.
(21:22):
That it's worth learning andit's a tough sell in math.
So that's why I have to comeabout it in a way that when I
understand what math anxiety isdoing to your brain, it's making
it more difficult for you to domath.
So let's acknowledge that, getsome tools to move past that and
then let's see what you coulddo.
Let's see if you can proveyourself to yourself, and that
comes in with grading practicesand all kinds of things like
(21:43):
that.
But as an adult, I just want tospeak to the adults First.
Math anxiety can get passed downvery, very easily.
So if you have math anxiety asan adult, it is worth it for you
to jump on a platform likebrilliantorg or Khan Academy and
just engage with some math.
Buy a math book, buy abiography of a famous
(22:06):
mathematician, find a way in sothat you're not passing down
that math anxiety to yourchildren.
And then there are so manypeople who really are so frozen
when math concept comes up.
It becomes socially isolating.
It can become challenging atthe grocery store or at a
restaurant or even in personalbusiness.
(22:28):
And I just want everyone toknow that you can start at any
time.
Just because you're not in mathclass.
I highly encourage you to finda way to engage with math,
because that is the best way toeliminate math anxiety is to
engage with math nice, that'sgreat.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, I um.
Yeah, it's, and oftentimes, andespecially for for somebody
like myself, I'm like I'm tooold, I can't do that now.
That's just an excuse.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Oh, it's so beautiful , it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Math is beautiful.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, it is.
There's some really interestingthings.
I'll tell a great story that Ilove this is why it is valuable
to talk about things that aredifficult.
Right, that's one element ofkindness for sure, Like be
present with someone in theirstruggle.
So that's an amazing way thatparents can frame working on
(23:27):
that math homework too.
And I've also seen the meme.
You know I love you so much.
I learned algebra again.
Like, listen, like, do that,act of love for your children.
But there was a famousmathematician this is the man
who discovered logarithms, whichis a math concept that you
would discuss in higher levelmath in high school, and
(23:49):
everyone thought that he was asorcerer because he just he was
a math guy and math was equatedwith definitely some illegal
activities for a long, long timein history.
So this man had someinteresting habits and one day
he would use his logical brainto solve all kinds of problems.
So there was somebody stealingin his household.
(24:11):
This was many, many, many, manycenturies ago.
So there's someone stealing inhis household and he had all the
workers in his household comeand he had a black cat and he
told everyone that it was hisspirit animal and that it could
speak to him.
And so he put everybody in aroom with the cat and said tell
(24:31):
the cat whether you've beenstealing.
If you pet the cat, then he'llbe able to tell if you're the
thief, so pet the cat and thenthe cat's going to be able to
discern for me which one of youis the thief.
And then everyone came outafter they had their little
appointment with the cat and heknew whoever didn't have the
(24:51):
black paint that he'd put on thecat on their hands was the
thief.
And so he was able to logicallythink his way around that
problem.
Another day he had a peskyneighbor who kept carrier
pigeons, and the pigeons kepteating his barley.
And so he took a bunch ofbarley, soaked it in some
(25:11):
alcohol and put it on the ground.
So then the birds ate it, andthey were too drunk to fly.
So he waited until his neighborcame out.
And when his neighbor came outlooking for his birds, he had a
bag and was picking them up andputting them in the bag.
So he waited until his neighborcame out.
And when his neighbor came outlooking for his birds, he had a
bag and was picking them up andputting them in the bag.
And he thought the neighborthought he had bewitched the
birds.
So being a mathematician, alogitician, you can solve a lot
(25:33):
of problems with your knowledge.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
See, neither of those things sound like math to me.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
He was a deep, deep, logical thinker.
He saw through problems.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Okay, okay, I'll be darned.
So math can make you morelogical.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, and the other part of that story, and why I
love to tell it, is because mathwas discovered, not invented.
So there are people in thisstory who discovered math
concepts that existed in theworld, and if you are someone
who is intimidated by math, Ialways recommend that you try
reading a biography of someonewho's involved in the discovery
(26:15):
of math, because you'll see thehumanity behind it.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Oh sure, oh, you know what All of the names I keep
coming up with are?
I think they're scienceScientists, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Well, there's Sophie Germain, ada Lovelace.
I have a list of some otherpeople.
You can always start withwatching Hidden Figures that
movie I, that movie.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I love that movie yes , that was so good Math made a
way.
How did she know all?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
of that math.
She had to fight for access tothat education, for sure.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, I mean because yeah, and then who is?
Was it Janelle Monae'scharacter that went to the judge
to ask to go to high?
Speaker 2 (27:09):
school.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Just so she could go to college, because that was the
only way she was going to getahead.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yes, yeah, there's.
I mean that's.
There's stories like that allover math.
Ada Lovelace was like the firstcomputer programmer and she was
a very young girl, and so tofind out about the way that math
made a way for some of thesepeople, very interesting.
The first woman to constructand fly her own plane there's a
(27:37):
picture book about her.
Very interesting.
Similarly, she had to get awealthy benefactor to allow her
into school because there's apicture book about her.
Very interesting.
Similarly, she had to get awealthy benefactor to allow her
into school because she was awoman.
Sorry, a lot of the people whocome to mind for me are women,
because those are the people Iread about.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
No, I mean, yeah, that's so cool and that all
happened because of a love and acuriosity for math.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, another more recent one that you can look at
is the first woman to win theFields Medal, and I'll leave it
to your listeners to Google thefirst woman who went to win the
Fields Medal, which is theequivalent to the Nobel Prize in
the world of math, and she hadhuge social influence.
So I love when you said none ofthat sounds like math.
(28:23):
When you start to look, you'dbe surprised how much impact
math has on culture, society,politics, education, income,
finance.
It's all there.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Whoa politics, oh yeah.
Well, Sabina, it has beenabsolutely wonderful talking to
you.
I I now I'm gonna go find abiography of was it anna
lovelace?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
ada lovelace?
Ada, yes, and sophie germain isalso very interesting sophie
Germain.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Okay, I'm going to go find it and I'm going to read
it, and I don't know if I willfall in love with math.
But as Ted Lasso says, becurious, not judgmental.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
And that's what I'm going to do, and I hope our
listeners were too.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show today.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yes, thank you so much for having me.
I love talking about math andkindness and compassion.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Fantastic.
Take care and we will talk soon.
I want to thank you for takingthis time to listen to this
episode with my guest, sabinaDahlmeier.
I hope that you were able totake something positive from
this time that you spent with usand maybe you'll be inspired,
maybe you'll be motivated, maybeyou'll be moved to take another
(29:52):
math class.
If you experienced any of thosepositive feelings, please
consider sharing this podcastwith your friends and family.
I'm always striving to offeryou a better podcast and product
, so give me some feedback, letme know how you think I'm doing.
Email me, leave me a message onmy socials.
It would mean the world Also.
(30:13):
Feel free to follow us on oursocials like Facebook, instagram
, linkedin and TikTok Facebook,instagram, linkedin and TikTok.
This podcast is part of theMayday Media Network.
If you have an idea for apodcast and need some production
assistance, or have a podcastalready and are looking for a
supportive network to join,check out maydaymedianetworkcom
(30:35):
and check out the many differentshows like Afrocentric Spoil,
my Movie Generation Mixtape In aPickle Radio Show, wake Up and
Dream with D'Anthony Palin,staxo Pax and the Time Pals.
We will be back again next weekwith a new episode and we would
be honored if you would join us.
(30:56):
You've been listening to theKindness Matters Podcast.
I'm your host, mike Rathbun.
Have a fantastic week.
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