October 31, 2025 • 31 mins
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I sat down with Sam Thompson (https://x.com/ImSamThompson) again and we went deep on a wild but very real play. Sam took a painful market, wrapped it in a $29 eBook with a simple bump offer, and used Meta ads to drive buyers who can be referred to lawyers on the back end. We walk through the exact funnel, why AOV vs CAC is the only math that matters, how printing real copies boosted trust, and the snag he hit with Meta’s personal hardship policy. The bigger idea is using books as lead-gen for high-value services. If you want a one-person business you can actually run, this is the blueprint for testing fast, reading your own data, and turning information into revenue.
Enjoy!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Let's say someone's listening and they want to get to 20 KA
month profit. To me, these are easy, one
person businesses that can go and print that degree of money.
It's not a complicated thing if you're the average American
working for somebody stressed out on the clock.
No freedom, no real road map to making more money.
Now is like the best time to shrink your goals down and say
(00:24):
if I could double my income and cut my stress in half.
It's the Pareto principle of what we do That's it.
I haven't even gotten married yet and I made money selling a
divorce product like it's. I think the best way to win with
this or any lead Gen. business is to you ever notice how there
are certain income levels that are like very transformative for
(00:46):
people? 10 KA month is a really good
living in the vast majority of cities in the world. 20 KA
month. That's just kind of a different
level of lifestyle. And I think a lot of people
aspire for that 20 to 30 K per month number.
So we wanted to start there in this episode and work backwards
and come up with some creative ideas that don't require
employees, that don't require a big upfront investment of
(01:06):
getting to 20 KA month in net profit.
This is probably the 15th time that Sam has been on the
podcast. He's great.
I wouldn't keep having him on ifhe wasn't great.
You're just going to love this episode.
So I'm sitting in the in the grow faster call and I was
talking about how there's so many different like verticals
that you can go into. And I was talking about planning
(01:27):
our wedding and how on Etsy there's 9 million wedding
planning templates and books andlike checklist that you can buy
like all of this stuff. And as I was talking about it, I
was like, well, the wedding market is humongous.
And at least the stats in the United States is like 50% of
(01:48):
these Johns are ending in divorce.
So who's got the divorce market right, if, like, you're
watching? Like a handful of lawyers.
Right. You're like, dude, there's all
these like the not.com, like there's all of these massive
businesses built on the wedding industry.
And then the dark side of that is the 50% of them that end.
(02:10):
And so you're still having a massive market that's sitting
there on on the flip side. And so, you know, just start
doing some keyword research, just kind of like seeing what it
was. And and to your point, most of
the material out there was pushing to just like lawyers,
like all of that is divorce attorneys and people don't
really like their divorce attorneys very much.
(02:31):
And so I was like, all right, that's like, that's something
somebody should do. Somebody should go test that.
Like it's a massive market. You can run Facebook ads at it.
It's a super painful problem. Like it's expensive, it's
emotional, right? Like there's world that exists
there. I told a group of them, but I
was talking to one dude specifically and I was like you
(02:51):
should do this. Like this is right up your
alley. You're telling me you want to
launch this thing? And he didn't for like 6 weeks.
Then I told another person aboutit.
I was like dude, I think this one will work.
And then they didn't do anythingabout it.
And so you know me. Insert that Michael Jordan clip
and I took that personally. And I took it personally, right?
Same with the hummingbirds. Like I took it like, dude, like
(03:13):
I'm not lying to you. Like I promise you that this is
actually like I see a lot of things.
I have a lot of ideas. That one is very legit.
Like I think that's a move. And so I was watching a some
sporting event and I think Lauren went to the gym or
something and I literally just sat there with ChatGPT and was
like, write me this book. And I launched the first funnel
(03:35):
with perspective. OK.
Love perspective. We use it for all of our
funnels. Tell me and the listeners
watchers what you mean by funnel.
Yeah, the landing page basicallyright.
Like the the sales page for it. I use the word funnel because
it's two step and like that's just the language.
But then I I built the first oneon perspective, tested it out,
(03:56):
priced the book at 29 for an e-book digital copy, which is
awesome. 0 cogs phenomenal ran. I don't know, I probably spent
like 500 on ads in like the first few days.
I was probably you know me. I probably do 100 bucks a day.
So 500 to 700 bucks in that first week.
Let me drill in on that. Are we talking Meta ads anywhere
(04:18):
Meta wants to show it? Or were you only doing like
stories real super broad? Super broad.
I do automatic placements. Broad targeting.
Facebook is smarter than us, andwe'll dictate the spend based on
what you're trying to optimize for.
You didn't tell Facebook at all who to show it to or on Medium
to show it. No, super broad.
And I said I just want purchasesand then I just kind of let it
(04:40):
ride. You used a pixel on the thank
you page. Yep, yeah.
And so perspective is nice because you can track specific
conversion events we need to. Get them to pay for this pod.
Bro, I'm saying I'm already I want you.
Yeah, yeah, come on, I'm in. I'll promote you guys whenever
I'm a happy user. Yeah.
So basically it was like, all right, I spent 506 hundred,
(05:03):
whatever it was in the first week, probably May.
I think I did like 400 ish in sales and so like not
profitable, but like signal, it's like, oh Yep, like I'm
selling this thing for 29 bucks.It's costing me 40 bucks to get
that purchase. And so then you just play the
math game, right? And so then I was like, all
(05:24):
right, dude, let me transition this thing over to click funnels
because click funnels has betterlike upsell, downsell bump
offers, right? Stuff that you can do to
increase your AI know where. You're going with this?
Right and. So then I do what is what is the
monetary value of having a little edge at winning your
divorce? It could be millions of dollars.
And so I launched the Negotiation Training Toolkit
(05:48):
$17.00 bump offer. They add the, the book to cart
for 29 before they put in their payment details, it says do you
want to add this thing? Yes.
No, I think it's like 70% of people are saying yes.
And so AOV went to if if they buy both, you land at like 48.
I think is the math 17 + 29 whatever.
(06:11):
Somewhere in there. Maybe it's maybe I put it at 18.
I think it's 47. AOV landed around 42.
Average order value. Yep.
And so that's on the first turn.The ads back on made some new
creatives basically running at break even right now.
Like it sits at 40 to 45 on the CAC.
(06:32):
Customer acquisition cost. Yep, this thing's done.
You know 5 or 6 granted sales atthis point, right?
Like and and basically broken even all the way through.
And I started getting some support emails, people being
like when does my book ship? Right, OK.
Geez Louise, dude. It has.
Like it was, yeah, I was like, dude, e-mail check that.
(06:55):
It's all good. The book also like V1 was, was
not good. Like it was very much AI slop,
just like placeholder, hey, let's let's do it.
And so at that point I was like,all right, cool.
I bet you I could increase my conversion rate if I ship the
books, like if I actually printed real copies of this
(07:17):
book. And so I spent like 5 hours with
chat and made it good. Like the book's actually pretty
solid. It's 200 pages.
I went to printivity. I think is the because printify
is, is print on demand for clothing and stuff.
But I think this is printivity and I ordered 300 copies of it.
(07:40):
It came out to like maybe 6 bucks a book.
OK. Ish.
So landed to a customer, you addshipping in there.
And so you're probably at like 81/2.
And so ran those ads, turned them on and recently ran into a
Facebook ads issue, which is it got classified as targeting
(08:04):
personal hardship, which is in, I don't want to say the no fly
zone with Facebook. But what they don't let you do
is they don't let you attribute purchases back to your Pixel.
That's a super annoying yeah. And it won't optimize based on
the purchase event. And so I've turned the ads off.
(08:26):
I'm waiting to hear back on Facebook.
I understand that claim or that like categorization.
I'm a little frustrated that that happened right after I
spent 3000 bucks or whatever it was on these books.
And so without having the optimization in place, really
challenging for me to to beat like a $50 CAC.
It still gets purchases, but I can't, there's no line of sight
(08:49):
really for me to be able to optimize that all the way
through. And so I turned them off for now
until I hear back from Facebook.But all of that to say, like,
again, another one of those examples of like, yo, you can
just like figure out a problem, wrap a solution in the book and
yeah, you can just do things andyou can start to to sell them.
(09:10):
Lauren might not be super pleased that there's 300 copies
of a book called How to Win YourDivorce in our garage six months
before our wedding, but you know.
One wasn't enough. Yeah, You know, it's like, no, I
really, I'm really soaking up the material.
No, it's, but yeah, I think again, it's it's one of those.
The other piece of that too is Iwas just using ads to do it.
(09:32):
I think there's worlds where I like I could go and launch theme
pages around divorce or crazy divorce stories or, you know,
any of those things that that would allow for me to get
through that inventory for free.Let me get this out, dude.
Yeah, first of all, I did a little prompt as you were
talking. I asked our friend ChatGPT, or
as the boomers call it, chat, which I kind of like.
(09:53):
I like and like it. I'm in.
I didn't at first because it waslike they're saying it wrong and
then it's like doesn't matter, that's cool.
No, it's 3 less syllables. I'm.
Just going to hit chat. I mean I'm talking to chat so
also they own chat.com now so. So good.
I asked how much do lawyers makefrom divorces and do they pay
referral fees if I bring them customers?
(10:14):
And if so, how much in referral fees is industry standard?
So first of all, I've looked into this industry before.
I almost bought the domain name international lawyers.com
because I was going to have a directory or you know,
programmatic site where I brought leads to lawyers.
But there are some, there's somelegalities to this, right?
Certain states allow you to accept referral fees.
(10:35):
Certain states require you to bea lawyer to accept a referral
fee from another lawyer. Just like in real estate, the
same is true. But there are ways around this.
There are legal ways around this.
Number one, you're a consultant,your consultant that happens to
refer them to customers and he'spaying a consulting fee, 30% of
the total fees that he collects,which are between 7:00 and
(10:56):
$23,000. The average divorce attorney
charging 270 bucks an hour. So these little books, now it
becomes a tool for you to have a$0.00, you know, break even
customer acquisition and you canmake this a high ticket where 5%
of people that buy your book, you refer to a lawyer that you
just Google, you pop on a call with beforehand to say, hey, Mr.
(11:18):
Lawyer, I've got this customer 100%.
No, I can't. Are you a lawyer?
No, I can't. I'm a consultant.
I don't need a referral fee. I need a consulting fee.
Pay per lead, baby, it's all good.
What are you talking about? Yeah, it's the same.
And so the other piece that I did was I added on back end
offer. So they hit the, they pay for
the book, they get the bump offer.
So that pushes AOV up on the top.
(11:39):
Then on the back, I put it live like a couple days before I turn
the ads off. So I didn't get any purchases on
it, but I put a $300 program on the back, which is very much,
it's the financial protection protocol, right?
Divorce is one of the most expensive.
Things. That yeah, the FPP.
For sure and. So it's one of the most
(12:00):
expensive things that people go through in their life.
And so it's all like very targeted messaging towards like
how to come out of this not financially destroyed and have a
plan for building wealth post divorce.
There's also, to your point, like so many monetization models
on the back of that. You could pretty easily launch
(12:21):
like a support group with an annual fee.
You could, you know, I, I already have mock ups for, for
the second book, which is datingafter divorce, right?
And like, you know, there's like.
There's book DAD. DAD and so there's a there's a
bunch of there's a bunch of problems within this macro
market that people can solve for.
And so it's like, again, it's it's when you think about low
(12:44):
lift stuff to kind of get off the ground.
Sure, there's a learning curve with some of the skills that you
need to be able to do it, but those are applicable to every
business you're ever going to launch, right, Copywriting
landing pages, getting comfortable in Facebook ads
manager, right, like all of those different skills.
But like, at its core, you can apply that skill set to
(13:05):
anything, right? Like, and that's why I always
just push people to go do one. Because if you do 1, then all of
a sudden you've built a landing page before and you're not
scared of it. You've written copy before,
you've made ads, you've ran ads.Like it is not the most
complicated thing for people to learn how to do, especially if
you just do it once and then youcan go and apply that to any
(13:25):
market ever. Dude, we talk about this every
time you come on. I know.
Like I'm like just every episodefor good reason.
I'm like, guys, like just go do it.
Because like I promise you, the next idea that you have is
always going to be like, there'sa problem that needs to be
solved. How do you convince somebody and
get attention? And it's like you write a
(13:46):
landing page, make ads that speak to the problem.
You run the like, it's that sameskill set all the way through.
And like, it turns literally every like I haven't even gotten
married yet and I made money selling a divorce product.
Like it's, you know what I'm saying?
Like there's and this is a real.Yeah, you know what I mean?
It's like dude that's not like you just can apply it to any
(14:09):
market like without a problem. Let me ask you this.
How did you go from the Nexus ofthis idea, which was just
growing down in your community, saying divorce yadda yadda
yadda? You never thought of it before.
How did you go from that to I have enough data points now to
put to invest 3 hours into this.Like did you do much research?
Do you look at keywords or Google?
(14:30):
Trends, because I think I think people get caught in that right
where it's like everyone spends.All the time out of.
It yeah, they like they like go so deep into like figuring out
if it's a good business idea instead of just testing it.
It's funny, it's it's another one of the conversations that's
a recurring theme in the Grow Faster community.
And it's like there are best practices within business,
(14:50):
right, like there's an average add to cart rate in E com
brands. Sure.
All right, I want to pause here just for a second to tell you
why I've used Beehive for two years and I just actually sent
my 100th newsletter edition. I love Beehive and you see
emails different from other platforms because social media
platforms own your audience. In fact, YouTube just banned me
(15:13):
for a week because they didn't like one of my videos even
though it was perfectly compliant.
If Instagram changes their algorithm, your reach tanks.
Same with TikTok, Facebook, and anything else you're building on
rented land. But with Beehive, I own my list.
I own my audience. I'm not at the mercy of some
nameless, faceless algorithm. Every time I hit send, they just
get my emails. And Beehive makes this simple
(15:34):
growth tools, monetization, and a free website.
And I can't get enough of their analytics and the data I get
from Beehive. This is data that I can actually
use and share with potential sponsors.
It's everything you need in one platform.
The smartest creators out there are the ones that own their own
audience. So go to beehive.com Chris to
get 30% off your first three months.
(15:54):
That's BEHI v.com Chris, and start building something you
actually own. What would you say that is?
Add to cart rate. Yeah.
This is the question, right? It's so dependent, right?
Because like, are you selling a $6000 sauna or are you selling,
you know, like, are you a fashion brand where people are
adding and kind of like keeping stuff in cart and just like
(16:15):
saving stuff, right? Like it's so varied that it's
hard to be like 22%, right? Because it's like, dude, Tesla's
add to cart is not, but their conversion rate from add to cart
to purchase is way higher because no one's reserving a
Tesla without wanting to buy it,right?
And so it's like there's all of these metrics that like are very
unique to each business and likeyou might find ad accounts that
(16:38):
are doing better at getting costper click down that you're
beating that, but you're not beating your, you know, like
there's so much nuance there that it's hard for me to sit
there and be like, and with a straight face be like, these are
the numbers you should expect. The only way that I look at good
versus bad is really comparing it against past owned
(17:00):
performance, right? Like did I improve my cost per
click? Not is my cost per click good or
bad based on the industry. It's like, yeah, do what?
Can I make this math work for myself?
Like when you ask somebody what they're seeing, take it with a
grain of salt because it's not your business.
There's different variables, there's different pieces.
(17:21):
Go test something so you get first party data and can make
your own decisions based on the data that you are creating of.
Like if I drop my cost per clickby 30% this should be
profitable. Then you know what you need to
do right? So get in the game.
There's so much beauty to ignorance because if we start
doing all this research, we're gonna read some AI generated
(17:44):
blog article that says like whatdoes cost per click average in
the e-commerce industry on Facebook ads, dollar 42.
And then you start your Facebookads and you see your cost per
click is $7.00 and you're like, oh, this doesn't work.
It's like, bro, you're selling $6000 saunas, right?
It's totally different. Totally totally different like.
(18:04):
So that research kind of did them in.
It's funny. It's it's the reason why
everyone's like, what podcast doyou listen to?
What? And I like, I don't really.
It's the Kerner. Office yeah you like yeah, yeah,
I only listen to 1 and it's you when I'm on it obviously right
and so it's like like I'll watchhim every once in a while but
like I'm not I'm not taking whatpeople are saying as like, oh,
(18:25):
to compare against myself like dude, he couldn't get it to work
with this. But but like, no, like here's
the problem I need to solve for my thing.
My AOV is this, my conversion rate?
Is this my cost per click? Is this, I know what I need to
do. I don't care what the other ECOM
brands doing. I can see my numbers.
And so I think that piece of it is like, it's again, it's why we
(18:47):
have this conversation every single time, which is like, no,
I didn't do that much research. I asked ChatGPT basically the
same question as you and how many people?
I was like, how many people a year in the US go through a
divorce? Cool.
It's like 2 point, whatever million or whatever it is.
And it's like, that's a big enough market.
That's interesting to me. Like that's fine, I'll play that
game and the markets are so big that it's like, dude, the even
(19:07):
if there was competition, it's like I'll still try to compete.
Like that's fine. Let.
Me ask you this, let's say someone's listening or watching
and they want to get to 20 KA month profit.
Yeah. 25240A year profit. Let's use your idea plus my
tweak of it, which is like referral fees to lawyers.
(19:28):
Let's back end into that. So let's say you're breaking,
you're selling these ebooks. Let's just say it's only ebooks
to keep it simple. You're breaking even on your ad
spend. What do you think a reasonable
conversion rate is for someone that buys a book and ends up
going to the lawyer that you refer to them?
No idea. So you get 100 purchases on the
book, right? How many do you think end up
(19:48):
working with a, with a seal? And I, I would probably, there's
a risk level that's involved with what I'm about to say.
One is you say to the lawyer, you're only going to pay me when
somebody signs to work with you,right?
And the value of that is much higher.
Let's just for easy math, let's say on a, on a signed contract,
(20:09):
they will pay you $1000, right? Sweet.
Or you go to the lawyer and say,Hey, I'll send you every single
lead that comes from the state of California.
And each of those leads, you payme $100 less risk for you, but
you get paid less, more risk forthe lawyer.
So they pay less, right? And so you can you figure out
(20:30):
where that math works? But then you start sitting there
and you say, well, I've sent this guy 100 leads and eight of
them converted, right? He's paid me 10 grand.
And of those eight, if you were paying me 1000, I'd make 8
grand. Sweet.
I'm going to keep paying them. I'm going to keep selling them
$100 leads left, right and center right.
But if that number's changed andit's like 16 closed and I could
(20:52):
have made 16 grand by selling him closed deals, then you go, I
don't sell this anymore. You call 3 more attorneys in
California and say, hey, like for every 100 leads that I send,
16 of them end up signing up to work with somebody.
I charge 1200 bucks, whatever itis.
Yeah. And so you just go deeper into
it to figure out the math. I think like the question of
(21:15):
20,000 just comes down to like really figuring out the math
side of that, right? Like similar with like a take
rate on that 300 purchase, right.
So like if your take rate is 3%,right?
And on that one, you're breakingeven top of funnel, 3% take rate
on the back at 300 puts you at 900 bucks a day in profit,
(21:37):
right? And so you're like, OK, three,
right? And so you're sitting there with
a take rate of 3%, meaning, cool, I need to spend enough
money on ads to push 100 orders of this book.
Easy enough, right? Like that's it to me.
These are easy, like one person businesses that can go and print
that degree of money. If you just like commit to doing
(21:57):
that, right? Like, cool, I need to get this
to 3%. Like, it's not a complicated
thing. Yeah.
It's like I need to improve conversion rates and I need to
run better ads. That's what you're waking up
doing. Yeah, There's a third option and
that's like give me a quarter ofyour revenue once.
Like every time you invoice them, give me a quarter of that.
The risk there is that lawyer could run away.
(22:20):
Lawyers don't exactly have the best reputation for being honest
and upfront, Right? Which is honestly why I love
this business. Because it's not capitalizing on
people that's getting a divorce dude.
It's capitalizing on lawyers which have money to spend.
No one's crying about lawyers spending money, right?
For sure. And if you can genuinely help
someone that's about to be divorced find a great lawyer,
then you're doing a good for theworld, right?
For sure, but in any lead Gen. business there's going to be a
(22:42):
trade off between hand holding, how much you have to trust
someone, and the potential profitability.
Right. Yeah.
And you just got to find where that line is.
Yeah, I think the best way to win with this or any lead Gen.
business is to really just develop a good relationship with
like 2 to 3 lawyers. That's that you feel good about
that's willing to pass all the data back to you.
(23:03):
So, so you know what's closing, who's closing?
Because then you can leverage those two to three relationships
into a pricing model that works for lawyers you don't know very
well and you don't trust very well.
Because at the end of that threemonth relationship or whatever
it is, at the end of the first three months, you're going to
know I'm just making this up. Wow.
Just selling these leads for 100bucks a pop is amazing.
(23:24):
That's the best and highest use of these leads for me because
anything outside of that, I'm having to only find lawyers that
are great at closing deals and most lawyers aren't made at
sales. I don't want to have to care if
they're good at sales. So I just want my money up
front. Maybe they'll make a little more
than the other scenario, maybe not, but you've got to be like
really ingrained with their business and be relentless about
(23:45):
asking them for how it's going. How's it did that?
Did that deal close? Did the league close, you know?
Etcetera. And, and there's the, the degree
of how much work you want to putin, right?
Like if you don't want to deal with all of that, you don't want
to have to, then it's like, yo, cool, I'm just going to run it
off this like pay per lead model.
And like, I'm not even going to worry about it.
(24:06):
Like they can close who they want and not close who they
want. The only part of that that
impacts me is if they're not good at selling, they're going
to ask me to stop sending leads because they're paying for them,
right? Like, cool.
And then you have the proof and you can go to every other
divorce attorney in the state and say, let's go like I'm doing
this. This is fine.
I think it applies to every industry under the sun, right?
(24:29):
Like, I mean, we to be blunt, like we made a massive bet on
the pay per lead model. I spent thousands and thousands
and thousands of dollars on a domain pay per call dot IO based
on this of like we will go generate the the calls people
calling your business, you pay me for the call, you close, you
(24:50):
do it. We we debated doing do we do pay
per appointment, meaning we pickup the phone and we put it on
their servicetitan. Are we right?
Like are we doing that work? And the answer was no, like they
and they would have paid us moremoney if we were to say, Hey,
we're pay per appointment. Yep, right.
But like we didn't want to sign up for the headache of managing
a call center or right. Like we didn't really want to
(25:13):
get that ingrained, was not where we wanted to live.
And the nice part is like a lot of these $1,000,000
conversations and these big business things, you don't even
have to worry about any of that stuff to make 20,000 bucks a
month. Like you don't even like all you
really need is like a good offer.
Yeah, yeah. Right.
Like it's a much simpler setup that you really can run as a one
(25:35):
person shop if you find the mathand the offer that makes sense
there to like make 20 grand a month.
It's like not, yeah, it's not easy, but it's way easier than
making $1,000,000 a year by likeorders of magnitude.
You've seen it like you've been at all of those levels.
Like the jump from a one person business doing $20,000 a month
(25:55):
to a six person business doing $1,000,000 a month or $1,000,000
a year is like there's a lot of work that goes into that
specific jump. You're changing what the
organization is like. That's a hard thing to get
through. It's four times more revenue for
maybe 2 times more profit and like 6 times more work A. 100%
stress work. People messy middle.
(26:16):
It's a lot, right? And like we, we found ourselves
in that slump for, you know, 12 months where we really were
like, dude, we've doubled revenue.
But like, I'm not making any more money because we had to
commit to like I'm going to makeway more money 12 months from
now if we continue the growth curve because then all my like,
that's when I will win bigger. The compounding.
(26:36):
Right. And so it's like, I think more
people should like take a step back and be like, what am I
actually trying to achieve here?Really easy to get impressed by
the yachts and the Ferraris and the private jets and the Rolexes
and, and all of that stuff. But like I would gamble that
like if you're the, I'm going tosay an average American, right?
If you're making 120 KA year working for somebody stressed
(26:59):
out on the clock, no freedom, noreal like road map to making
more money, I think now is like the best time to shrink your
goals down and say, yo, I'm really only trying to get to a
quarter, $1,000,000 a year. If I could double my income and
cut my stress in half, that's like it's the Pareto principle
(27:22):
of what we do. Yeah, like, yeah, that's it.
And so I think again with that prompt is like there's a handful
of those businesses that you cango and make $20,000 a month on
profit running it just you. And if it the emails are slowing
you down, go hire Ava for 1200 bucks a month and like you could
run a very smooth operation and make that money.
Yeah. And I feel like if someone is
(27:44):
about to launch something like this lead Gen. business and they
have to choose between the higher touch, maybe potentially
higher profit option and the lower touch, lower profit
option, I opt to go for the lower touch, lower profit.
Because if you get burned out onthe harder version, then you'll
never even see what could have been.
If you start with like, all right, you know what?
These leads are worth 300 bucks easy.
(28:06):
I'm going to sell them for 100 bucks because it's easier and I
don't have to babysit these lawyers.
I don't have to trust them. They're going to pay me on day
one where they close or not. And then after three months,
you're going to be like, these are are closing a lot higher
than I thought. Like, I don't even need to ask
the lawyers because I'm asking the divorcees and they're
telling me, yeah, he's a great lawyer.
I use them. I'm good.
Thank you so much. These are now $150.00 leads or
(28:26):
these are now 30% referral fees.I'm gonna double my money.
But if you start with that, you may never find success.
Yeah, it's and it's like, yeah, people biting off more than they
can chew and then being like, itdoesn't work.
And it's like, yeah, no, you just tried to do too much, like
you went too deep into it. It's like, dude, it doesn't have
to be that complicated. Sell leads.
(28:47):
First of all, we both know that the lead Gen. business for
lawyers is huge, right? We're not inventing it on this
podcast, but here's what I thinkwe might have invented, which is
mostly credit to you, using e-books to generate leads in a
kind of roundabout way. Because if I go to a lawyer
that's been buying leads for a decade, he's going to roll his
(29:08):
eyes and say, your leads probably suck.
All these leads suck. Yeah, they're burned out, right?
But if I go to him and say I don't just use Google ads or
Facebook ads for that matter, for leads like you're used to, I
sell books and these are very targeted books.
It might not even be how to win your divorce.
It might be how does a mom of four win her divorce in New
(29:28):
Hampshire? You know, for all I know, like
something very, very niche whereyour your conversion rate on ten
of those books might be 20% and your conversion rate on 100 of
the more general books might be 2%.
You know what I'm saying? Yeah, 100%.
That could be the whole model. You can make a book for what to
do after your car accident. What do I do after my slip and
(29:49):
fall? What do I do if I'm in a
relationship with domestic abuse?
What do I do if I just got a DUIand take all these leads and
give them to DUI lawyers, to domestic abuse lawyers, You
know, like that could be a wholebusiness that just starts with
divorce or starts with the UIS or.
Whatever dude, you just you write a book called erase your
DUI. Oh, where's that domain I'm?
(30:11):
Sure, it's available, you know what I mean?
And it's like you go make a mockup on Canva, you run some ads.
You had that to be write the book like, you know what I'm
saying? Like it's, it's all it's like
not that complicated. It's like, what is the thing
that people want to pay for? You know, the, the, the pay per
lead model. All you're trying to do is
arbitrage it, right? And so like you, you have a CAC
(30:33):
to acquire that lead. And the, it's funny, when we
talk about it a lot, we think about wholesale retail, right?
And so like, if you can get the retail buyers that are willing
to spend $100 a lead, but you can go and get leads for $60.00
wholesale, whether it's self derivative, right?
Like you can figure that out. Then you're like, oh, how do I
create more margin? And by putting a book in the
(30:56):
front, you're actually revenue generating on the top, meaning
that like even even in this model, let's just say like what
I have, even if my CAC is $50 and my AOV is $40.
Losing $10 per lead. That cost per lead goes to
$10.00, but if I'm making 100 right, it's like you're still
(31:17):
good. That's.
What I'm saying? You're a happy camper.
The legal cost per click on Google is like the highest of
any industry. You might need to pay like, like
if you, if you're looking for like a trucking accident lead on
Google Ads, you might spend likelegitimately $5000 for that
lead, right? But if, if I can sell a book
with $100.00 of Facebook ads andmy average order value is
(31:41):
$20.00, I lose 80. Like that's an $80 lead instead
of $1000 lead or whatever. What are we talking about?
I know like someone can go and do that pretty easily.
All right, what you think, Please share it with a friend
and we'll see you next time on the Kerner office.
Let's say someone's listening and they want to get to 20 KA
month profit. To me, these are easy, one
person businesses that can go and print that degree of money.
It's not a complicated thing if you're the average American
working for somebody stressed out on the clock.
No freedom, no real road map to making more money.
Now is like the best time to shrink your goals down and say
(00:24):
if I could double my income and cut my stress in half.
It's the Pareto principle of what we do That's it.
I haven't even gotten married yet and I made money selling a
divorce product like it's. I think the best way to win with
this or any lead Gen. business is to you ever notice how there
are certain income levels that are like very transformative for
(00:46):
people? 10 KA month is a really good
living in the vast majority of cities in the world. 20 KA
month. That's just kind of a different
level of lifestyle. And I think a lot of people
aspire for that 20 to 30 K per month number.
So we wanted to start there in this episode and work backwards
and come up with some creative ideas that don't require
employees, that don't require a big upfront investment of
(01:06):
getting to 20 KA month in net profit.
This is probably the 15th time that Sam has been on the
podcast. He's great.
I wouldn't keep having him on ifhe wasn't great.
You're just going to love this episode.
So I'm sitting in the in the grow faster call and I was
talking about how there's so many different like verticals
that you can go into. And I was talking about planning
(01:27):
our wedding and how on Etsy there's 9 million wedding
planning templates and books andlike checklist that you can buy
like all of this stuff. And as I was talking about it, I
was like, well, the wedding market is humongous.
And at least the stats in the United States is like 50% of
(01:48):
these Johns are ending in divorce.
So who's got the divorce market right, if, like, you're
watching? Like a handful of lawyers.
Right. You're like, dude, there's all
these like the not.com, like there's all of these massive
businesses built on the wedding industry.
And then the dark side of that is the 50% of them that end.
(02:10):
And so you're still having a massive market that's sitting
there on on the flip side. And so, you know, just start
doing some keyword research, just kind of like seeing what it
was. And and to your point, most of
the material out there was pushing to just like lawyers,
like all of that is divorce attorneys and people don't
really like their divorce attorneys very much.
(02:31):
And so I was like, all right, that's like, that's something
somebody should do. Somebody should go test that.
Like it's a massive market. You can run Facebook ads at it.
It's a super painful problem. Like it's expensive, it's
emotional, right? Like there's world that exists
there. I told a group of them, but I
was talking to one dude specifically and I was like you
(02:51):
should do this. Like this is right up your
alley. You're telling me you want to
launch this thing? And he didn't for like 6 weeks.
Then I told another person aboutit.
I was like dude, I think this one will work.
And then they didn't do anythingabout it.
And so you know me. Insert that Michael Jordan clip
and I took that personally. And I took it personally, right?
Same with the hummingbirds. Like I took it like, dude, like
(03:13):
I'm not lying to you. Like I promise you that this is
actually like I see a lot of things.
I have a lot of ideas. That one is very legit.
Like I think that's a move. And so I was watching a some
sporting event and I think Lauren went to the gym or
something and I literally just sat there with ChatGPT and was
like, write me this book. And I launched the first funnel
(03:35):
with perspective. OK.
Love perspective. We use it for all of our
funnels. Tell me and the listeners
watchers what you mean by funnel.
Yeah, the landing page basicallyright.
Like the the sales page for it. I use the word funnel because
it's two step and like that's just the language.
But then I I built the first oneon perspective, tested it out,
(03:56):
priced the book at 29 for an e-book digital copy, which is
awesome. 0 cogs phenomenal ran. I don't know, I probably spent
like 500 on ads in like the first few days.
I was probably you know me. I probably do 100 bucks a day.
So 500 to 700 bucks in that first week.
Let me drill in on that. Are we talking Meta ads anywhere
(04:18):
Meta wants to show it? Or were you only doing like
stories real super broad? Super broad.
I do automatic placements. Broad targeting.
Facebook is smarter than us, andwe'll dictate the spend based on
what you're trying to optimize for.
You didn't tell Facebook at all who to show it to or on Medium
to show it. No, super broad.
And I said I just want purchasesand then I just kind of let it
(04:40):
ride. You used a pixel on the thank
you page. Yep, yeah.
And so perspective is nice because you can track specific
conversion events we need to. Get them to pay for this pod.
Bro, I'm saying I'm already I want you.
Yeah, yeah, come on, I'm in. I'll promote you guys whenever
I'm a happy user. Yeah.
So basically it was like, all right, I spent 506 hundred,
(05:03):
whatever it was in the first week, probably May.
I think I did like 400 ish in sales and so like not
profitable, but like signal, it's like, oh Yep, like I'm
selling this thing for 29 bucks.It's costing me 40 bucks to get
that purchase. And so then you just play the
math game, right? And so then I was like, all
(05:24):
right, dude, let me transition this thing over to click funnels
because click funnels has betterlike upsell, downsell bump
offers, right? Stuff that you can do to
increase your AI know where. You're going with this?
Right and. So then I do what is what is the
monetary value of having a little edge at winning your
divorce? It could be millions of dollars.
And so I launched the Negotiation Training Toolkit
(05:48):
$17.00 bump offer. They add the, the book to cart
for 29 before they put in their payment details, it says do you
want to add this thing? Yes.
No, I think it's like 70% of people are saying yes.
And so AOV went to if if they buy both, you land at like 48.
I think is the math 17 + 29 whatever.
(06:11):
Somewhere in there. Maybe it's maybe I put it at 18.
I think it's 47. AOV landed around 42.
Average order value. Yep.
And so that's on the first turn.The ads back on made some new
creatives basically running at break even right now.
Like it sits at 40 to 45 on the CAC.
(06:32):
Customer acquisition cost. Yep, this thing's done.
You know 5 or 6 granted sales atthis point, right?
Like and and basically broken even all the way through.
And I started getting some support emails, people being
like when does my book ship? Right, OK.
Geez Louise, dude. It has.
Like it was, yeah, I was like, dude, e-mail check that.
(06:55):
It's all good. The book also like V1 was, was
not good. Like it was very much AI slop,
just like placeholder, hey, let's let's do it.
And so at that point I was like,all right, cool.
I bet you I could increase my conversion rate if I ship the
books, like if I actually printed real copies of this
(07:17):
book. And so I spent like 5 hours with
chat and made it good. Like the book's actually pretty
solid. It's 200 pages.
I went to printivity. I think is the because printify
is, is print on demand for clothing and stuff.
But I think this is printivity and I ordered 300 copies of it.
(07:40):
It came out to like maybe 6 bucks a book.
OK. Ish.
So landed to a customer, you addshipping in there.
And so you're probably at like 81/2.
And so ran those ads, turned them on and recently ran into a
Facebook ads issue, which is it got classified as targeting
(08:04):
personal hardship, which is in, I don't want to say the no fly
zone with Facebook. But what they don't let you do
is they don't let you attribute purchases back to your Pixel.
That's a super annoying yeah. And it won't optimize based on
the purchase event. And so I've turned the ads off.
(08:26):
I'm waiting to hear back on Facebook.
I understand that claim or that like categorization.
I'm a little frustrated that that happened right after I
spent 3000 bucks or whatever it was on these books.
And so without having the optimization in place, really
challenging for me to to beat like a $50 CAC.
It still gets purchases, but I can't, there's no line of sight
(08:49):
really for me to be able to optimize that all the way
through. And so I turned them off for now
until I hear back from Facebook.But all of that to say, like,
again, another one of those examples of like, yo, you can
just like figure out a problem, wrap a solution in the book and
yeah, you can just do things andyou can start to to sell them.
(09:10):
Lauren might not be super pleased that there's 300 copies
of a book called How to Win YourDivorce in our garage six months
before our wedding, but you know.
One wasn't enough. Yeah, You know, it's like, no, I
really, I'm really soaking up the material.
No, it's, but yeah, I think again, it's it's one of those.
The other piece of that too is Iwas just using ads to do it.
(09:32):
I think there's worlds where I like I could go and launch theme
pages around divorce or crazy divorce stories or, you know,
any of those things that that would allow for me to get
through that inventory for free.Let me get this out, dude.
Yeah, first of all, I did a little prompt as you were
talking. I asked our friend ChatGPT, or
as the boomers call it, chat, which I kind of like.
(09:53):
I like and like it. I'm in.
I didn't at first because it waslike they're saying it wrong and
then it's like doesn't matter, that's cool.
No, it's 3 less syllables. I'm.
Just going to hit chat. I mean I'm talking to chat so
also they own chat.com now so. So good.
I asked how much do lawyers makefrom divorces and do they pay
referral fees if I bring them customers?
(10:14):
And if so, how much in referral fees is industry standard?
So first of all, I've looked into this industry before.
I almost bought the domain name international lawyers.com
because I was going to have a directory or you know,
programmatic site where I brought leads to lawyers.
But there are some, there's somelegalities to this, right?
Certain states allow you to accept referral fees.
(10:35):
Certain states require you to bea lawyer to accept a referral
fee from another lawyer. Just like in real estate, the
same is true. But there are ways around this.
There are legal ways around this.
Number one, you're a consultant,your consultant that happens to
refer them to customers and he'spaying a consulting fee, 30% of
the total fees that he collects,which are between 7:00 and
(10:56):
$23,000. The average divorce attorney
charging 270 bucks an hour. So these little books, now it
becomes a tool for you to have a$0.00, you know, break even
customer acquisition and you canmake this a high ticket where 5%
of people that buy your book, you refer to a lawyer that you
just Google, you pop on a call with beforehand to say, hey, Mr.
(11:18):
Lawyer, I've got this customer 100%.
No, I can't. Are you a lawyer?
No, I can't. I'm a consultant.
I don't need a referral fee. I need a consulting fee.
Pay per lead, baby, it's all good.
What are you talking about? Yeah, it's the same.
And so the other piece that I did was I added on back end
offer. So they hit the, they pay for
the book, they get the bump offer.
So that pushes AOV up on the top.
(11:39):
Then on the back, I put it live like a couple days before I turn
the ads off. So I didn't get any purchases on
it, but I put a $300 program on the back, which is very much,
it's the financial protection protocol, right?
Divorce is one of the most expensive.
Things. That yeah, the FPP.
For sure and. So it's one of the most
(12:00):
expensive things that people go through in their life.
And so it's all like very targeted messaging towards like
how to come out of this not financially destroyed and have a
plan for building wealth post divorce.
There's also, to your point, like so many monetization models
on the back of that. You could pretty easily launch
(12:21):
like a support group with an annual fee.
You could, you know, I, I already have mock ups for, for
the second book, which is datingafter divorce, right?
And like, you know, there's like.
There's book DAD. DAD and so there's a there's a
bunch of there's a bunch of problems within this macro
market that people can solve for.
And so it's like, again, it's it's when you think about low
(12:44):
lift stuff to kind of get off the ground.
Sure, there's a learning curve with some of the skills that you
need to be able to do it, but those are applicable to every
business you're ever going to launch, right, Copywriting
landing pages, getting comfortable in Facebook ads
manager, right, like all of those different skills.
But like, at its core, you can apply that skill set to
(13:05):
anything, right? Like, and that's why I always
just push people to go do one. Because if you do 1, then all of
a sudden you've built a landing page before and you're not
scared of it. You've written copy before,
you've made ads, you've ran ads.Like it is not the most
complicated thing for people to learn how to do, especially if
you just do it once and then youcan go and apply that to any
(13:25):
market ever. Dude, we talk about this every
time you come on. I know.
Like I'm like just every episodefor good reason.
I'm like, guys, like just go do it.
Because like I promise you, the next idea that you have is
always going to be like, there'sa problem that needs to be
solved. How do you convince somebody and
get attention? And it's like you write a
(13:46):
landing page, make ads that speak to the problem.
You run the like, it's that sameskill set all the way through.
And like, it turns literally every like I haven't even gotten
married yet and I made money selling a divorce product.
Like it's, you know what I'm saying?
Like there's and this is a real.Yeah, you know what I mean?
It's like dude that's not like you just can apply it to any
(14:09):
market like without a problem. Let me ask you this.
How did you go from the Nexus ofthis idea, which was just
growing down in your community, saying divorce yadda yadda
yadda? You never thought of it before.
How did you go from that to I have enough data points now to
put to invest 3 hours into this.Like did you do much research?
Do you look at keywords or Google?
(14:30):
Trends, because I think I think people get caught in that right
where it's like everyone spends.All the time out of.
It yeah, they like they like go so deep into like figuring out
if it's a good business idea instead of just testing it.
It's funny, it's it's another one of the conversations that's
a recurring theme in the Grow Faster community.
And it's like there are best practices within business,
(14:50):
right, like there's an average add to cart rate in E com
brands. Sure.
All right, I want to pause here just for a second to tell you
why I've used Beehive for two years and I just actually sent
my 100th newsletter edition. I love Beehive and you see
emails different from other platforms because social media
platforms own your audience. In fact, YouTube just banned me
(15:13):
for a week because they didn't like one of my videos even
though it was perfectly compliant.
If Instagram changes their algorithm, your reach tanks.
Same with TikTok, Facebook, and anything else you're building on
rented land. But with Beehive, I own my list.
I own my audience. I'm not at the mercy of some
nameless, faceless algorithm. Every time I hit send, they just
get my emails. And Beehive makes this simple
(15:34):
growth tools, monetization, and a free website.
And I can't get enough of their analytics and the data I get
from Beehive. This is data that I can actually
use and share with potential sponsors.
It's everything you need in one platform.
The smartest creators out there are the ones that own their own
audience. So go to beehive.com Chris to
get 30% off your first three months.
(15:54):
That's BEHI v.com Chris, and start building something you
actually own. What would you say that is?
Add to cart rate. Yeah.
This is the question, right? It's so dependent, right?
Because like, are you selling a $6000 sauna or are you selling,
you know, like, are you a fashion brand where people are
adding and kind of like keeping stuff in cart and just like
(16:15):
saving stuff, right? Like it's so varied that it's
hard to be like 22%, right? Because it's like, dude, Tesla's
add to cart is not, but their conversion rate from add to cart
to purchase is way higher because no one's reserving a
Tesla without wanting to buy it,right?
And so it's like there's all of these metrics that like are very
unique to each business and likeyou might find ad accounts that
(16:38):
are doing better at getting costper click down that you're
beating that, but you're not beating your, you know, like
there's so much nuance there that it's hard for me to sit
there and be like, and with a straight face be like, these are
the numbers you should expect. The only way that I look at good
versus bad is really comparing it against past owned
(17:00):
performance, right? Like did I improve my cost per
click? Not is my cost per click good or
bad based on the industry. It's like, yeah, do what?
Can I make this math work for myself?
Like when you ask somebody what they're seeing, take it with a
grain of salt because it's not your business.
There's different variables, there's different pieces.
(17:21):
Go test something so you get first party data and can make
your own decisions based on the data that you are creating of.
Like if I drop my cost per clickby 30% this should be
profitable. Then you know what you need to
do right? So get in the game.
There's so much beauty to ignorance because if we start
doing all this research, we're gonna read some AI generated
(17:44):
blog article that says like whatdoes cost per click average in
the e-commerce industry on Facebook ads, dollar 42.
And then you start your Facebookads and you see your cost per
click is $7.00 and you're like, oh, this doesn't work.
It's like, bro, you're selling $6000 saunas, right?
It's totally different. Totally totally different like.
(18:04):
So that research kind of did them in.
It's funny. It's it's the reason why
everyone's like, what podcast doyou listen to?
What? And I like, I don't really.
It's the Kerner. Office yeah you like yeah, yeah,
I only listen to 1 and it's you when I'm on it obviously right
and so it's like like I'll watchhim every once in a while but
like I'm not I'm not taking whatpeople are saying as like, oh,
(18:25):
to compare against myself like dude, he couldn't get it to work
with this. But but like, no, like here's
the problem I need to solve for my thing.
My AOV is this, my conversion rate?
Is this my cost per click? Is this, I know what I need to
do. I don't care what the other ECOM
brands doing. I can see my numbers.
And so I think that piece of it is like, it's again, it's why we
(18:47):
have this conversation every single time, which is like, no,
I didn't do that much research. I asked ChatGPT basically the
same question as you and how many people?
I was like, how many people a year in the US go through a
divorce? Cool.
It's like 2 point, whatever million or whatever it is.
And it's like, that's a big enough market.
That's interesting to me. Like that's fine, I'll play that
game and the markets are so big that it's like, dude, the even
(19:07):
if there was competition, it's like I'll still try to compete.
Like that's fine. Let.
Me ask you this, let's say someone's listening or watching
and they want to get to 20 KA month profit.
Yeah. 25240A year profit. Let's use your idea plus my
tweak of it, which is like referral fees to lawyers.
(19:28):
Let's back end into that. So let's say you're breaking,
you're selling these ebooks. Let's just say it's only ebooks
to keep it simple. You're breaking even on your ad
spend. What do you think a reasonable
conversion rate is for someone that buys a book and ends up
going to the lawyer that you refer to them?
No idea. So you get 100 purchases on the
book, right? How many do you think end up
(19:48):
working with a, with a seal? And I, I would probably, there's
a risk level that's involved with what I'm about to say.
One is you say to the lawyer, you're only going to pay me when
somebody signs to work with you,right?
And the value of that is much higher.
Let's just for easy math, let's say on a, on a signed contract,
(20:09):
they will pay you $1000, right? Sweet.
Or you go to the lawyer and say,Hey, I'll send you every single
lead that comes from the state of California.
And each of those leads, you payme $100 less risk for you, but
you get paid less, more risk forthe lawyer.
So they pay less, right? And so you can you figure out
(20:30):
where that math works? But then you start sitting there
and you say, well, I've sent this guy 100 leads and eight of
them converted, right? He's paid me 10 grand.
And of those eight, if you were paying me 1000, I'd make 8
grand. Sweet.
I'm going to keep paying them. I'm going to keep selling them
$100 leads left, right and center right.
But if that number's changed andit's like 16 closed and I could
(20:52):
have made 16 grand by selling him closed deals, then you go, I
don't sell this anymore. You call 3 more attorneys in
California and say, hey, like for every 100 leads that I send,
16 of them end up signing up to work with somebody.
I charge 1200 bucks, whatever itis.
Yeah. And so you just go deeper into
it to figure out the math. I think like the question of
(21:15):
20,000 just comes down to like really figuring out the math
side of that, right? Like similar with like a take
rate on that 300 purchase, right.
So like if your take rate is 3%,right?
And on that one, you're breakingeven top of funnel, 3% take rate
on the back at 300 puts you at 900 bucks a day in profit,
(21:37):
right? And so you're like, OK, three,
right? And so you're sitting there with
a take rate of 3%, meaning, cool, I need to spend enough
money on ads to push 100 orders of this book.
Easy enough, right? Like that's it to me.
These are easy, like one person businesses that can go and print
that degree of money. If you just like commit to doing
(21:57):
that, right? Like, cool, I need to get this
to 3%. Like, it's not a complicated
thing. Yeah.
It's like I need to improve conversion rates and I need to
run better ads. That's what you're waking up
doing. Yeah, There's a third option and
that's like give me a quarter ofyour revenue once.
Like every time you invoice them, give me a quarter of that.
The risk there is that lawyer could run away.
(22:20):
Lawyers don't exactly have the best reputation for being honest
and upfront, Right? Which is honestly why I love
this business. Because it's not capitalizing on
people that's getting a divorce dude.
It's capitalizing on lawyers which have money to spend.
No one's crying about lawyers spending money, right?
For sure. And if you can genuinely help
someone that's about to be divorced find a great lawyer,
then you're doing a good for theworld, right?
For sure, but in any lead Gen. business there's going to be a
(22:42):
trade off between hand holding, how much you have to trust
someone, and the potential profitability.
Right. Yeah.
And you just got to find where that line is.
Yeah, I think the best way to win with this or any lead Gen.
business is to really just develop a good relationship with
like 2 to 3 lawyers. That's that you feel good about
that's willing to pass all the data back to you.
(23:03):
So, so you know what's closing, who's closing?
Because then you can leverage those two to three relationships
into a pricing model that works for lawyers you don't know very
well and you don't trust very well.
Because at the end of that threemonth relationship or whatever
it is, at the end of the first three months, you're going to
know I'm just making this up. Wow.
Just selling these leads for 100bucks a pop is amazing.
(23:24):
That's the best and highest use of these leads for me because
anything outside of that, I'm having to only find lawyers that
are great at closing deals and most lawyers aren't made at
sales. I don't want to have to care if
they're good at sales. So I just want my money up
front. Maybe they'll make a little more
than the other scenario, maybe not, but you've got to be like
really ingrained with their business and be relentless about
(23:45):
asking them for how it's going. How's it did that?
Did that deal close? Did the league close, you know?
Etcetera. And, and there's the, the degree
of how much work you want to putin, right?
Like if you don't want to deal with all of that, you don't want
to have to, then it's like, yo, cool, I'm just going to run it
off this like pay per lead model.
And like, I'm not even going to worry about it.
(24:06):
Like they can close who they want and not close who they
want. The only part of that that
impacts me is if they're not good at selling, they're going
to ask me to stop sending leads because they're paying for them,
right? Like, cool.
And then you have the proof and you can go to every other
divorce attorney in the state and say, let's go like I'm doing
this. This is fine.
I think it applies to every industry under the sun, right?
(24:29):
Like, I mean, we to be blunt, like we made a massive bet on
the pay per lead model. I spent thousands and thousands
and thousands of dollars on a domain pay per call dot IO based
on this of like we will go generate the the calls people
calling your business, you pay me for the call, you close, you
(24:50):
do it. We we debated doing do we do pay
per appointment, meaning we pickup the phone and we put it on
their servicetitan. Are we right?
Like are we doing that work? And the answer was no, like they
and they would have paid us moremoney if we were to say, Hey,
we're pay per appointment. Yep, right.
But like we didn't want to sign up for the headache of managing
a call center or right. Like we didn't really want to
(25:13):
get that ingrained, was not where we wanted to live.
And the nice part is like a lot of these $1,000,000
conversations and these big business things, you don't even
have to worry about any of that stuff to make 20,000 bucks a
month. Like you don't even like all you
really need is like a good offer.
Yeah, yeah. Right.
Like it's a much simpler setup that you really can run as a one
(25:35):
person shop if you find the mathand the offer that makes sense
there to like make 20 grand a month.
It's like not, yeah, it's not easy, but it's way easier than
making $1,000,000 a year by likeorders of magnitude.
You've seen it like you've been at all of those levels.
Like the jump from a one person business doing $20,000 a month
(25:55):
to a six person business doing $1,000,000 a month or $1,000,000
a year is like there's a lot of work that goes into that
specific jump. You're changing what the
organization is like. That's a hard thing to get
through. It's four times more revenue for
maybe 2 times more profit and like 6 times more work A. 100%
stress work. People messy middle.
(26:16):
It's a lot, right? And like we, we found ourselves
in that slump for, you know, 12 months where we really were
like, dude, we've doubled revenue.
But like, I'm not making any more money because we had to
commit to like I'm going to makeway more money 12 months from
now if we continue the growth curve because then all my like,
that's when I will win bigger. The compounding.
(26:36):
Right. And so it's like, I think more
people should like take a step back and be like, what am I
actually trying to achieve here?Really easy to get impressed by
the yachts and the Ferraris and the private jets and the Rolexes
and, and all of that stuff. But like I would gamble that
like if you're the, I'm going tosay an average American, right?
If you're making 120 KA year working for somebody stressed
(26:59):
out on the clock, no freedom, noreal like road map to making
more money, I think now is like the best time to shrink your
goals down and say, yo, I'm really only trying to get to a
quarter, $1,000,000 a year. If I could double my income and
cut my stress in half, that's like it's the Pareto principle
(27:22):
of what we do. Yeah, like, yeah, that's it.
And so I think again with that prompt is like there's a handful
of those businesses that you cango and make $20,000 a month on
profit running it just you. And if it the emails are slowing
you down, go hire Ava for 1200 bucks a month and like you could
run a very smooth operation and make that money.
Yeah. And I feel like if someone is
(27:44):
about to launch something like this lead Gen. business and they
have to choose between the higher touch, maybe potentially
higher profit option and the lower touch, lower profit
option, I opt to go for the lower touch, lower profit.
Because if you get burned out onthe harder version, then you'll
never even see what could have been.
If you start with like, all right, you know what?
These leads are worth 300 bucks easy.
(28:06):
I'm going to sell them for 100 bucks because it's easier and I
don't have to babysit these lawyers.
I don't have to trust them. They're going to pay me on day
one where they close or not. And then after three months,
you're going to be like, these are are closing a lot higher
than I thought. Like, I don't even need to ask
the lawyers because I'm asking the divorcees and they're
telling me, yeah, he's a great lawyer.
I use them. I'm good.
Thank you so much. These are now $150.00 leads or
(28:26):
these are now 30% referral fees.I'm gonna double my money.
But if you start with that, you may never find success.
Yeah, it's and it's like, yeah, people biting off more than they
can chew and then being like, itdoesn't work.
And it's like, yeah, no, you just tried to do too much, like
you went too deep into it. It's like, dude, it doesn't have
to be that complicated. Sell leads.
(28:47):
First of all, we both know that the lead Gen. business for
lawyers is huge, right? We're not inventing it on this
podcast, but here's what I thinkwe might have invented, which is
mostly credit to you, using e-books to generate leads in a
kind of roundabout way. Because if I go to a lawyer
that's been buying leads for a decade, he's going to roll his
(29:08):
eyes and say, your leads probably suck.
All these leads suck. Yeah, they're burned out, right?
But if I go to him and say I don't just use Google ads or
Facebook ads for that matter, for leads like you're used to, I
sell books and these are very targeted books.
It might not even be how to win your divorce.
It might be how does a mom of four win her divorce in New
(29:28):
Hampshire? You know, for all I know, like
something very, very niche whereyour your conversion rate on ten
of those books might be 20% and your conversion rate on 100 of
the more general books might be 2%.
You know what I'm saying? Yeah, 100%.
That could be the whole model. You can make a book for what to
do after your car accident. What do I do after my slip and
(29:49):
fall? What do I do if I'm in a
relationship with domestic abuse?
What do I do if I just got a DUIand take all these leads and
give them to DUI lawyers, to domestic abuse lawyers, You
know, like that could be a wholebusiness that just starts with
divorce or starts with the UIS or.
Whatever dude, you just you write a book called erase your
DUI. Oh, where's that domain I'm?
(30:11):
Sure, it's available, you know what I mean?
And it's like you go make a mockup on Canva, you run some ads.
You had that to be write the book like, you know what I'm
saying? Like it's, it's all it's like
not that complicated. It's like, what is the thing
that people want to pay for? You know, the, the, the pay per
lead model. All you're trying to do is
arbitrage it, right? And so like you, you have a CAC
(30:33):
to acquire that lead. And the, it's funny, when we
talk about it a lot, we think about wholesale retail, right?
And so like, if you can get the retail buyers that are willing
to spend $100 a lead, but you can go and get leads for $60.00
wholesale, whether it's self derivative, right?
Like you can figure that out. Then you're like, oh, how do I
create more margin? And by putting a book in the
(30:56):
front, you're actually revenue generating on the top, meaning
that like even even in this model, let's just say like what
I have, even if my CAC is $50 and my AOV is $40.
Losing $10 per lead. That cost per lead goes to
$10.00, but if I'm making 100 right, it's like you're still
(31:17):
good. That's.
What I'm saying? You're a happy camper.
The legal cost per click on Google is like the highest of
any industry. You might need to pay like, like
if you, if you're looking for like a trucking accident lead on
Google Ads, you might spend likelegitimately $5000 for that
lead, right? But if, if I can sell a book
with $100.00 of Facebook ads andmy average order value is
(31:41):
$20.00, I lose 80. Like that's an $80 lead instead
of $1000 lead or whatever. What are we talking about?
I know like someone can go and do that pretty easily.
All right, what you think, Please share it with a friend
and we'll see you next time on the Kerner office.
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