September 10, 2025 • 28 mins
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I sat down with Ryan Bartlett again, and if you haven’t already, make sure to check out the previous episode, where we talked about his story and how he started True Classic. It’s a wild ride that shows exactly how he went from a small investment to building one of the fastest-growing apparel brands out there.
In this second part, we focused more on the agency side of things. Ryan shared what he thinks are the best service businesses to start right now, especially the ones that are still wide open and create real results for clients. We talked about smarter ways to test products, how to make your first clients say yes without needing a huge portfolio, and what separates people who actually make it in business from those who don’t. We also got into team building, identifying real impact, and why being scrappy and resourceful still wins.
True Classic: https://www.trueclassic.com
Follow Ryan on X: https://x.com/RyanBartlett
Enjoy!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The path to getting a true classic for a huge retainer is
show and prove your value and doa bunch of work up free.
If you want all the money, do a little bit up front and you can
charge 5101520 thousand a month but you're creating overnight
impact. It's unbelievable.
What is 5 grand to them when they're going to be making 100
grand more per month? What have you seen in your
(00:21):
industry that could be an amazing business idea that
people can execute on? I have such a great one and this
is revolutionary because no one is really doing it.
Just yet. OK, so if you were around here
recently, you probably heard my episode with Ryan Bartlett.
He's the founder of True Classic, the company doing
hundreds of millions of dollars a year in T-shirt sales.
(00:42):
Well, this guy's an idea machineand we talked for hours.
So I wanted to get his unique insight on the industry, on
e-commerce, on agencies, servicebusinesses and find out what
should we be launching today? What are some interesting ways
we can launch an agency or an Internet business?
And he did not disappoint. This episode is jam packed with
tactical ideas, ideas and advice.
You're gonna love it. Share with a friend.
I'm curious. You've got a very unique
(01:04):
insight. You've done a lot of things.
And we're gonna have to do another episode where we talk
about your poker days and your your Vegas limo hack.
I wanna get into that on a future episode, but with your
unique background, you know you've been distracted for a
while. You've done the same thing for a
while. What have you seen in your
industry that could be an amazing business idea that
people can execute on that maybeyou're too focused on to go jump
(01:26):
on like something in a vendor that you've seen or in some
software that you've used or maybe an apparel or a type of
new apparel that's. Trying to I have a great one.
I have such a great one, and this is revolutionary because no
one is really doing it just yet except a few companies.
So like I told you early on thatinventory bets are impossible.
(01:50):
You essentially have to be a psychic to be in apparel because
you just don't know how to forecast and what the demand is
going to look like and all that.So you have to just guess,
right? The reason that these Sheen and
Quinces of the world have these incredible valuations is not
because they're just so great atmaking product.
(02:11):
It's because they have figured out that they have solved supply
chain and the demand and market is is is starting to unite,
right. So what they've done is
essentially, and there's a company we're talking to called
Portless. And instead of, you know, coming
up with an idea for a product, spending hundreds of thousands
(02:33):
of day ideas, guessing if it's going to work, getting the
inventory here, like that process is months and months and
months. And so much cash tied up into an
idea that you might not even know is going to work out.
What an insane business that we're in, right?
What Portless has solved is yourspeed to market.
(02:54):
So you can essentially do like 100 units of one style.
And this three PL. is in China. So it goes from the manufacturer
in China, they drive it to this three PL. in China, and then it
ships directly to the customer. So now instead of making these
enormous bets and investing in astyle that we don't know is
going to win, I can make bets onsmall product categories and
(03:18):
shirts and things like that on avery small run.
Improve it out first on say 100 units and if it, if I blow
through 100 units in one day, well, I'm I'm into a winner.
Let me reinvest and then I can roll that out in a much larger
unit size much later. So now we're taking all the
guesswork out of it and we're taking all the cash out of it as
(03:40):
well And it's like it goes back to the drop shipping thing dude.
This is drop shipping for what I'm doing now.
It's like it, it just, it mitigates all the risk and, and
all the money. And this is how it's going to go
in the future, by the way, because I can already see that
like once people catch on to this, it won't make sense to go
(04:00):
back to the old ways of how everyone's been doing apparel
for the last 60-70 years. This model will allow the
customer to have more options. It'll hedge against all the
other things that I said. So what a game changer, dude.
I am so excited to test these guys out.
We're, we're going to go througha test here in the next month or
two and see how it goes and start because we only roll out
(04:22):
maybe a few styles a month. We're going to start being able
to do 1020, maybe 50 styles a month at 100 units per style.
And if it works, we just buy allthe fabric and we scale it up
and, and crush it, right. But like dude, like.
AB Testing designs at scale. Dude, what a model.
(04:43):
This is what Quince does, by theway.
I'm friends with the owners, some of the largest
manufacturers in the world. Dude, you know how many styles?
This is going to sound insane. You know many styles Quince is
rolling out on a daily basis. 8008 thousand in a day, no big
deal, right? Like when I heard that number, I
(05:04):
looked at Ben, our CEO, and we were just like, what are we
doing? Like no wonder they have a $5
billion valuation. Like what?
A model so? And it's because of new
technology like this. So how can someone sitting at
home take advantage of technology like that to launch
something or to test something? Well, I mean, you can test
(05:25):
things now and like on a small scale, you can just do it
through Aliexpress and you use Oberlo and connect that to your
Shopify and you can do it on a small scale there.
But at a certain point you will have to test into portless and
give them a shot. Now they're going to have
minimums, obviously, they're notgoing to take on every client
(05:46):
and you have to get to a certainscale to really peak their just
and make it work for their economics.
Yeah, yeah, I would say from thestarting point, dude, just do
Aliexpress. It's like it's so easy to go on
there and ship product directly to people from from that
location. Did you ever drop ship directly
from China with True Classic or did you just?
Never. Now the the so the portless
(06:08):
transit time from purchased to landed with the customer is like
6 days. It's crazy.
Yeah, this is not like we're going to now have a 30 day wait
time to get your product. We're talking about 6 days,
dude. You know how much now it's like
5 days in the US So we're addinga day with all this upside for
(06:29):
the customer. That's crazy.
Exciting. I heard of this kid in Atlanta
who created this design. I'm sharing my screen right now
here on the right. God is dope.
And he went around Atlanta selling these for $5, basically
break even. Yeah.
And his whole model was give these away for free.
It's a great design. It's polarizing.
(06:49):
It sends a message. Then people go to his website,
godisdope.com, and they start spending $2030 on T-shirts with
different designs. This is like his loss leader,
his viral marketing loss leader.What do you think about that
strategy and is that, is that a good strategy?
I think it's an amazing. People copy that.
No dude, listen, this is what I always tell people when they ask
about strategy as it relates to product.
(07:12):
If you cannot feel comfortable about giving it away free, then
you're you don't have a great product.
Right? Like if you feel like you have
to charge people upfront then you need to go back to the
drawing board. Essentially free to meet is the
ultimate gateway to getting customers to invest in you
because you've broken down the barrier completely.
You actually don't even have to make them.
(07:34):
You don't have to charge them. Just give them something for
free and let the net, the rest net out on how much they like
the product. And what a great message.
I mean, how do you argue with that?
You know, it's, I think it's great strategy.
Would you say the same advice tosomeone wanting to start an ad
agency? Like to get your first customer?
Do it for free, prove out the value, go from there.
(07:55):
If you're starting out and you have nothing, then yes.
If you have proven it out, then no, unless you have some
unbelievable like if I. So just to give you a little
insight on the SEO agency, I'm, I'm pivoting away from it.
I'm actually moving towards CRO,which conversion rate
optimization because I'm such a freak about that with true
(08:16):
classic and we've done so much incredible work there that I'm
pivoting the whole agency towards that.
And really the biggest reason islike you create immediate value
like overnight. Do you charge a percentage of
what you improve on the conversion rate?
You could you? Could do that model.
Or is that not what you're goingto do?
No, I'm going to charge. Well, maybe in the future, yeah,
potentially. But in the beginning, I'm just
(08:37):
going to charge a flat fee to use our services and and
basically, you know, you could charge 5101520 thousand a month,
but you're creating overnight impact.
It's unbelievable. You know, you go to a like a
product page and if you redesignthat thing and it converts at
like half a point better, you have just created such
unbelievable value for that business that what is 5 grand to
(08:59):
them when they're going to be making 100 grand more per month?
Yeah, so. I think a, a key differentiator
with starting any agency is not just impact, but provable
attributable impact, right? Because if you have like a,
let's say you have like a marketing strategy agency and
you're going to get on calls andsay I would do this and I would
do that. And it's all kind of nebulous.
(09:20):
It just doesn't work right? Or like a fractional CFOs are
exploding right now, right? Instead of hiring someone for 10
grand a month to be a CFO, you know, your, your business isn't
really big enough, you could pay$2500 a month for someone to be
a fractional CFO, etcetera. That sells so well because it's
directly tied to value. You get your PNL, you get your
balance sheet every month. That's what you need, right?
(09:41):
But the reason that like fractional Coos aren't really a
thing is because it's like, how do you tie it to the value as
closely as in finance or if you had like an e-mail marketing
agency. I took your opening click
through rate from this to this. That was because of me, $3500 a
month, please. Yes, if you if you can't do
that, you're going to be fighting uphill the entire time.
(10:04):
So those are the ones you just named is exactly what I tell
people to start if like they want to go into the service
business. Because having lived on the
other side of this as a brand, Ican tell you that the the two
most impactful service based industries to go into in the
future that will always have a life, no matter AI or not is
e-mail marketing and CRO. Those two are to your point,
(10:28):
incredible immediate impact and it's like not even a
conversation. There's no, you don't have to
prove anything. It's just like look at the
numbers, look at the data, is itbetter or worse or whatever.
And those are the quickest to propelling you to the next
level. You dial in your CRO, you dial
in your e-mail and it is incredible overnight impact and
(10:48):
those agencies will just never lose.
That's why SEO is so tough is because it takes forever.
So like gone are the days of like, well, it's going to take
you a year to see results. It's going to take you a week
with CRO. So congratulations, you're on to
something now. And for people that want to know
tactically what to use on the CRO front, it's the program we
(11:09):
use is Intelligems and it is oneof the best we've ever used.
I love it. We use it every single day we
have. Tons of.
Tests running and I'm going to use this platform with even my
other agency still it it's just the best.
We've tried a bunch of Intelligem's roles.
Well, dude, one of my one of my most favorite like pastimes is
(11:32):
to log into our Clavio account and just start tinkering and
just look in messing with flows,one of my most popular
newsletters of all time. Yeah, I think it was called like
how to quickest path to 20 KA month and it was basically join
a Facebook group for e-commerce business owners post and say,
hey, I like Clavio, it's cool. I want to tinker.
I want to improve your brand forfree, 100% for free.
(11:54):
Give me read only access to yourClavio account.
Let me tinker around in there. I won't send anything before
talking to you. In fact, I won't even have
permission to send anything. Let me mess with your flows.
Let me see if I can get your revenue per recipient up and
then like get a couple free casestudies.
You're probably going to enjoy it, right?
If you don't enjoy it, then finda different business.
If you do, keep going, pretty soon you're going to have people
(12:16):
lined up to pay you $2500 a month to improve their Clavio
flows or to add new flows or cart abandonment or welcome
e-mail or happy birthday you ordered a year ago.
Like there's so many levers to pull inside Clavio.
Or with CRO conversion rate optimization, like just Start
learning intelligent geeking out.
See if you can get their conversion rate from 3.1 to
3.15. That's interesting, right?
(12:38):
What you just said about that, that process you just walked
through, I try to tell people this all the time because they
ever I get pitched to use these agencies like a million times a
day. And I tell them I'm like, dude,
all you would have to do to get me to sign up like within 10
(12:58):
seconds is do a shred of pro bono work.
Just do a shred. Just show me something of value.
And but no one wants to do that work right?
Everyone is just lead Gen. S scale.
Let me just mass e-mail every single business in the world and
get them to sign up. Dude, the path to getting a true
classic As for a huge retainer is doing exactly what you just
(13:20):
said, which is show and prove your value and do a bunch of
work up free. If you want all the money, do a
little bit upfront and and really show us and dial in and
go, because how are we going to say no to that, right?
Like if you actually do that work and you show us the value
and you've already spent the time and energy, there's almost
(13:40):
zero chance I can say no. And even to this day when I get
people that are like, Hey, I have this actor or this athlete
that wants to work with you and I'm just like, OK, and then
what? Like you haven't done the work
to tell me what that even means for true classic.
You're just saying, Hey, I got this guy, pay me this money.
The end. That does not work for me these
(14:01):
days. I try to tell these agents, I'm
like, you guys have got to spendtime getting creative, coming up
with a solution that works for us.
What is on brand, what will workfor our customers, not just hey,
guy type price. Do it together.
It's like, dude, I'm out of thatland from from you.
So, you know, now, now they haveto go way back to the drawing
board and they're like, forget true classic.
(14:24):
This is like, I have to do work like I'm out of here.
Like on to the brand. Even with like, you know, we do
like these big partnerships now,like we're with the UFC or with
the Clippers or with the Kings or with the Rams, like we're
doing all these big sexy brand deals and even with them
originally they would and UFC has been an amazing partner by
(14:45):
the way. Like I have no complaints, but
like some of these other ones that I have worked with, dude,
they come with these proposals. That's like, you know, a
million, 2,000,000 bucks a year.We're going to put you on a on
the Jumbotron with your logo andthe end.
Oh my gosh, I've been pitched that before too.
Are you talking about, dude, like, unless you're taking a
(15:08):
little Johnny from the top of the rafters to courtside and
making an impact, I don't want to hear it.
So come back with your proposal that is filled with
thoughtfulness. Let's show up for the fans.
Let's give them free product. Let's create a moment for them
because that's what I'm trying to do.
Like, if you don't come with impact, I don't want to hear it.
Don't show me your sexy deck with big numbers and all these
(15:30):
impressions. You're not going to win me over,
right? You come with and initiatives
and charity work and ways to show up for humans.
Now I give and they leave those meetings like like so deflated.
But I'll tell you, dude, when they come back to the table with
those second and third proposals, they come correct
(15:52):
because they know exactly what I'm looking for.
And it's so different than all the other brands they work with
because they're like, well, Bud Light just says like, here's
some money and then just do a thing.
It's like, yeah, dude, we're notBud Light.
Like we're, we're scrappy, a startup, just so you know, like
we quantify our dollars. So like just don't go that route
and you will get our business. That's so good.
(16:16):
OK. So if we're talking agencies, if
you were to rank from most to least promising or from most
demand but lowest supply like the greatest asymmetric bets in
starting a service business or an agency today, where would you
rank them from, from best to worst?
Definitely CRO #1, because even with e-mail I would put e-mail
(16:38):
#2 but with e-mail there is a bit of a ceiling where like the
creativity like can just hit a bit of a limit even with us,
like we've tried to like the well.
The lower ceiling. Yeah, like the whereas, like
CRO, there's so many components to a website, right?
Like on e-mail, it's literally just an e-mail, the end subject
(16:58):
line. And even with e-mail, like we've
done some amazing things with like Maverick AI.
Do you know what Maverick AI is?It's like where I sat in a room
and they recorded me and I went through every name in the
English language for like 2 hours and I said like hey
Jennifer, hey Derek. And then they piece it all
together and I tell a story withsaying their name off the RIP so
(17:22):
that you like capture them, right?
It's so mad. I love it.
So like that is taking e-mail tothe next next level, but like
beyond that, there's nothing left.
It's like we've already done it at the highest level.
So now with CRO though, I'm telling you, dude, my in house
guys come with a proposal every week and we sit there for like
an hour and just riff on ideas and we come out with some of the
(17:44):
most amazing stuff and it just evolves and evolves and evolves.
And then the next week it's something else.
And it never ends. Which means for an agency,
you'll never run out of ideas. Like you'll just keep growing
e-mail. I've seen these agencies, they
come in, they do good work for like a month or two and then
after like 6 to 8 months, it's starting to like hit its limits
(18:07):
already and they're out within ayear.
So like CRO, you get a good agency, dude, they're never
leaving because upside is tremendous.
So. Oh dude, I have a headache in a
in a good way. This has been really, really
good. I'm just happy to be here
talking to you and like minded entrepreneurs are.
(18:27):
They're tough to find again and even like you walking through
some of your examples shows me that you're thinking about
things the right way. That is a rare quality and it's
something I look for in people even that we hire here.
Like we go through homework assignments and like we get to
see how their train of thought works.
(18:48):
And I will tell you that what we've learned over six years of
hiring hundreds and hundreds of people that what works best here
are entrepreneurs. And what we know about them is
that they might not be here thatlong because they are going to
go start their own thing. And we're OK with that.
But while we have them here, they think about things the
right way. They think about the customer,
(19:08):
they think about the journey, they think about thoughtfulness.
They, they are scrappy. They're Jack of all trades.
Like they're all the things you need for this business to work
because that's who we are, right?
Like we're those guys. We're kind of like masters of
none, Jack of all trades. And we're dangerous at every
little thing, but we're not specialists.
Now you still need some specialists like finance, for
(19:29):
example, like you need those, but I heavily index on the Jack
of all trades guys just like yourself.
If I were to find a guy like youthat was in the working
environment, like, I would snatch them in a heartbeat
because it's it's a rare quality.
Well, I hope that brings people comfort to hear that because you
know, you get stressed out if you chase shiny objects and all
these rabbits and you know, a little bit about Facebook ads, a
(19:51):
little bit about copywriting, a little bit about e-commerce.
Like lean into it. It doesn't make you
unemployable. It makes you an even better
employee if if you decide to go that route or a better employer,
right. And over time with all that
surface area of little things that you've tested and tried,
you're naturally going to find things that you love the most.
And then you will become a specialist accidentally on
certain things within all of those trades.
(20:15):
Yeah. The other thing I would say as
it relates to that, if we're talking about employees, the one
thing that makes the biggest difference in the world is
identifying impact versus busy work and putting all your energy
towards impact. Now people would say, well,
yeah, but I got to get the work done.
Yes, I'm just saying energy deployed needs to be 80, twenty,
(20:38):
80% of your energy towards impactful things for the
business, 20% to busy work and learn AI, Liam, AI agents find
ways to get that busy work off your plate because if you want
to go from intern to CEO, it will only be on impact.
It will not be because you worked a busier than the other
busy bees in the company. It will because you identified
(20:59):
something, you created opportunity, you found it, you
did. You had the initiative and the
insight to go after and figure it out.
That is true impact. And because of the thing that
you found, it was wildly successful for the company.
Impact is so tough to understandthough.
When you come into a company, you have to listen to your
leaders, you have to talk to thebusiness owners, you have to
(21:21):
learn what is impactful to the business.
Like if you were to come in today and you would go, Ryan,
what, what would work for true classic.
What do you think? I would say, I would say, dude,
study CRO. I know you're in operations
right now, but if you came out with a CRO win, you think I
wouldn't credit you towards thatand give you something out of
that and excel you in the company?
Like I don't care where it comesfrom, it's just find a way to be
(21:44):
impactful and you are really on to something as an employee.
I mean, just to just back of thenapkin, let's say you, I imagine
you have several $1,000,000 dayson your website, right?
Dividing your annual sales by 365, let's say you have
$1,000,000 day, 3 1/2% conversion rate.
Yeah, we're, we're averaging, you know, anywhere from unlike a
(22:06):
random day, it could be as low as like, you know, 250 days all
the way up to, you know, Black Friday.
It gets into like multi $1,000,000 days.
And then how many visitors per day on average are you getting?
It's somewhere between 100 to 150,000 a day.
OK, so if you have 100,000 visitors a day, that's 3500
(22:27):
orders at a 3 1/2% conversion rate.
If you find some intern that gets your conversion rate from
3.5 to 3.6, that's an extra 100 orders, right?
Is that right? No, I could, I think it would be
a little bit more, but like I get where you're going with it
dude. If anything moves CVR, you are
(22:47):
on your way. Like if I was a guy that knew
nothing about that world and I had came up with an idea or I
saw a post somewhere or I was surfing and I put it in that
Channel on Slack where all of usare and it did something.
Dude, you have just now become wildly valuable even outside of
whatever you do in your particular role.
(23:07):
Like understanding impact as it relates to certain industries
and just putting an idea out there is so important.
I mean, we have a channel in Slack called Ideas, and that can
come things, inspiration can come from all sorts of different
people in all sorts of differentways.
And that really empowers people to just always be curious in
learning and figuring things outand looking to what's next and
(23:30):
give us a nugget. And that nugget can turn into a
mountain very quickly if it's great.
Even if you just give like the inkling of an idea that someone
else turns into something real, right, you're still the
originator of the idea and they're, they're going to tie
that to you. That's what happened with the
teacher initiative. It was one idea from like a
(23:50):
social manager. And she was like, hey, we should
like, you know, it's the end of the school or beginning of the
school year, and these people need help.
And I was like, what is this? And I looked into it and dude, I
turned it into a mountain. I took that little nugget and I
expanded on it and I blew it up into this big thing about within
a month we're on like every newscast.
(24:12):
And I was spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on wish
list. And now I have this community of
amazing teachers that support meand follow me and, and they
follow every move I make. And here I am every year
spending all this money to help them.
And it started from 1:00 conceptfrom one person who was not that
high up on the chain at all. But dude, even in this
(24:34):
conversation, her name is Tiffany.
I give her credit in almost every podcast I'm on that they
bring this up. I'm like, and I want to forever
champion her and clap her up because she deserves it, dude.
She was there putting in the work, figuring out what people
need and how to drive value to them.
You know what you very easily could have said, what most
leaders would have said is, thanks, Tiffany, super cool
(24:56):
idea. We're just kind of focused on XY
or Z right now. Exactly.
But that's the magic that happens when you see a thread
and you pull on it, it's like, where will this go?
Where will this go? Chasing shiny objects, right?
And I'm obviously obsessed with impact, so the more I looked
into it, I was just like these poor teachers, do they have to
spend their own money at these Title One schools?
(25:18):
They have to spend their own money to get supplies for kids.
I'm like, and I have 3 kids. I have three young kids and I'm
just like, I can't even imagine what that looks like.
This is insane what they're going through.
So it was like, how can I not show up for these guys?
Right. What's next for true classic
public exit cash flow? I definitely do not want to be
in the public markets. I have a lot of friends that are
(25:39):
in the public markets and what alife they live with all the
stress and I just dude, I am like how do I de stress and make
my life simpler and better and easier.
I'm in that kind of part of my career.
So I think what I'd like to do is potentially a big majority
deal sometime next year or the following year because this
(26:00):
business went through a huge growth year with wholesale,
we're looking very attractive toinvestors.
So I am in a place where I'm just like, let's either do like
a, you know, a 40% or maybe a 60% if the price is right.
And then I can go on and do these other things like what we
were talking about developing some sort of operator school and
(26:21):
just empowering entrepreneurs and helping them and teaching
them or some sort of a YouTube live show where people just come
on similar to like the, I don't know if you've ever watched Gary
Vee do his, uh, tea with Gary Vee, like a version of that.
Because I would just, I would crush those environments where
people just come on and hit me with questions, questions and
like I just give them a little bit or I look at their website
and I just start destroying their website and going, dude,
(26:43):
you got to move this here. You got to do that.
I could see something like that being great for people.
So we'll see though. Oh, Ryan, well, this was
perfect. Even better than I had hoped.
And I had high hopes. So where?
Where do you want people to findyou?
Basically my name across all thesocials.
I'm sure we'll link it up somewhere, but Instagram to
Twitter, LinkedIn, Yeah. It's just my name.
(27:04):
Ryan Bartlett across basically everything.
You know, I can definitely be found.
I'm happy to answer questions for entrepreneurs.
It's something I love. Even to this day.
People are hitting me a lot and I'm taking a lot of time because
I wish I had that when I was younger.
Like, I really wish I had somebody kind of guiding me in
the right direction. It would have saved me a lot of
time and energy and money, frankly.
(27:25):
Yeah, I'm, I'm easy to find on social if if you just got to
search for my name. OK.
And then true classictease.com, of course, yeah.
Trueclassic.com I still haven't changed the URL because I'm I
noticed. That it redirects right?
I'm worried about the organic implications coming from the SEO
world. I'm just like, I've seen so
many, I blame you disasters and I'm just like, I'll just leave,
(27:48):
it's fine. All right.
Well, thank you. Yeah, man, it was fun.
Hey guys, if you're still listening to this, it's probably
because you haven't had a chanceto take your air pods out.
You're still mowing the lawn, you're still driving, what have
you. If you're still here with me, I
would really, really love and appreciate a five star review on
Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast.
It would mean a lot. If you want to go the extra
(28:09):
mile, share this episode with a friend that might have an
interest in starting a business.It would mean a ton.
Hope you have the best day of your life today.
The path to getting a true classic for a huge retainer is
show and prove your value and doa bunch of work up free.
If you want all the money, do a little bit up front and you can
charge 5101520 thousand a month but you're creating overnight
impact. It's unbelievable.
What is 5 grand to them when they're going to be making 100
grand more per month? What have you seen in your
(00:21):
industry that could be an amazing business idea that
people can execute on? I have such a great one and this
is revolutionary because no one is really doing it.
Just yet. OK, so if you were around here
recently, you probably heard my episode with Ryan Bartlett.
He's the founder of True Classic, the company doing
hundreds of millions of dollars a year in T-shirt sales.
(00:42):
Well, this guy's an idea machineand we talked for hours.
So I wanted to get his unique insight on the industry, on
e-commerce, on agencies, servicebusinesses and find out what
should we be launching today? What are some interesting ways
we can launch an agency or an Internet business?
And he did not disappoint. This episode is jam packed with
tactical ideas, ideas and advice.
You're gonna love it. Share with a friend.
I'm curious. You've got a very unique
(01:04):
insight. You've done a lot of things.
And we're gonna have to do another episode where we talk
about your poker days and your your Vegas limo hack.
I wanna get into that on a future episode, but with your
unique background, you know you've been distracted for a
while. You've done the same thing for a
while. What have you seen in your
industry that could be an amazing business idea that
people can execute on that maybeyou're too focused on to go jump
(01:26):
on like something in a vendor that you've seen or in some
software that you've used or maybe an apparel or a type of
new apparel that's. Trying to I have a great one.
I have such a great one, and this is revolutionary because no
one is really doing it just yet except a few companies.
So like I told you early on thatinventory bets are impossible.
(01:50):
You essentially have to be a psychic to be in apparel because
you just don't know how to forecast and what the demand is
going to look like and all that.So you have to just guess,
right? The reason that these Sheen and
Quinces of the world have these incredible valuations is not
because they're just so great atmaking product.
(02:11):
It's because they have figured out that they have solved supply
chain and the demand and market is is is starting to unite,
right. So what they've done is
essentially, and there's a company we're talking to called
Portless. And instead of, you know, coming
up with an idea for a product, spending hundreds of thousands
(02:33):
of day ideas, guessing if it's going to work, getting the
inventory here, like that process is months and months and
months. And so much cash tied up into an
idea that you might not even know is going to work out.
What an insane business that we're in, right?
What Portless has solved is yourspeed to market.
(02:54):
So you can essentially do like 100 units of one style.
And this three PL. is in China. So it goes from the manufacturer
in China, they drive it to this three PL. in China, and then it
ships directly to the customer. So now instead of making these
enormous bets and investing in astyle that we don't know is
going to win, I can make bets onsmall product categories and
(03:18):
shirts and things like that on avery small run.
Improve it out first on say 100 units and if it, if I blow
through 100 units in one day, well, I'm I'm into a winner.
Let me reinvest and then I can roll that out in a much larger
unit size much later. So now we're taking all the
guesswork out of it and we're taking all the cash out of it as
(03:40):
well And it's like it goes back to the drop shipping thing dude.
This is drop shipping for what I'm doing now.
It's like it, it just, it mitigates all the risk and, and
all the money. And this is how it's going to go
in the future, by the way, because I can already see that
like once people catch on to this, it won't make sense to go
(04:00):
back to the old ways of how everyone's been doing apparel
for the last 60-70 years. This model will allow the
customer to have more options. It'll hedge against all the
other things that I said. So what a game changer, dude.
I am so excited to test these guys out.
We're, we're going to go througha test here in the next month or
two and see how it goes and start because we only roll out
(04:22):
maybe a few styles a month. We're going to start being able
to do 1020, maybe 50 styles a month at 100 units per style.
And if it works, we just buy allthe fabric and we scale it up
and, and crush it, right. But like dude, like.
AB Testing designs at scale. Dude, what a model.
(04:43):
This is what Quince does, by theway.
I'm friends with the owners, some of the largest
manufacturers in the world. Dude, you know how many styles?
This is going to sound insane. You know many styles Quince is
rolling out on a daily basis. 8008 thousand in a day, no big
deal, right? Like when I heard that number, I
(05:04):
looked at Ben, our CEO, and we were just like, what are we
doing? Like no wonder they have a $5
billion valuation. Like what?
A model so? And it's because of new
technology like this. So how can someone sitting at
home take advantage of technology like that to launch
something or to test something? Well, I mean, you can test
(05:25):
things now and like on a small scale, you can just do it
through Aliexpress and you use Oberlo and connect that to your
Shopify and you can do it on a small scale there.
But at a certain point you will have to test into portless and
give them a shot. Now they're going to have
minimums, obviously, they're notgoing to take on every client
(05:46):
and you have to get to a certainscale to really peak their just
and make it work for their economics.
Yeah, yeah, I would say from thestarting point, dude, just do
Aliexpress. It's like it's so easy to go on
there and ship product directly to people from from that
location. Did you ever drop ship directly
from China with True Classic or did you just?
Never. Now the the so the portless
(06:08):
transit time from purchased to landed with the customer is like
6 days. It's crazy.
Yeah, this is not like we're going to now have a 30 day wait
time to get your product. We're talking about 6 days,
dude. You know how much now it's like
5 days in the US So we're addinga day with all this upside for
(06:29):
the customer. That's crazy.
Exciting. I heard of this kid in Atlanta
who created this design. I'm sharing my screen right now
here on the right. God is dope.
And he went around Atlanta selling these for $5, basically
break even. Yeah.
And his whole model was give these away for free.
It's a great design. It's polarizing.
(06:49):
It sends a message. Then people go to his website,
godisdope.com, and they start spending $2030 on T-shirts with
different designs. This is like his loss leader,
his viral marketing loss leader.What do you think about that
strategy and is that, is that a good strategy?
I think it's an amazing. People copy that.
No dude, listen, this is what I always tell people when they ask
about strategy as it relates to product.
(07:12):
If you cannot feel comfortable about giving it away free, then
you're you don't have a great product.
Right? Like if you feel like you have
to charge people upfront then you need to go back to the
drawing board. Essentially free to meet is the
ultimate gateway to getting customers to invest in you
because you've broken down the barrier completely.
You actually don't even have to make them.
(07:34):
You don't have to charge them. Just give them something for
free and let the net, the rest net out on how much they like
the product. And what a great message.
I mean, how do you argue with that?
You know, it's, I think it's great strategy.
Would you say the same advice tosomeone wanting to start an ad
agency? Like to get your first customer?
Do it for free, prove out the value, go from there.
(07:55):
If you're starting out and you have nothing, then yes.
If you have proven it out, then no, unless you have some
unbelievable like if I. So just to give you a little
insight on the SEO agency, I'm, I'm pivoting away from it.
I'm actually moving towards CRO,which conversion rate
optimization because I'm such a freak about that with true
(08:16):
classic and we've done so much incredible work there that I'm
pivoting the whole agency towards that.
And really the biggest reason islike you create immediate value
like overnight. Do you charge a percentage of
what you improve on the conversion rate?
You could you? Could do that model.
Or is that not what you're goingto do?
No, I'm going to charge. Well, maybe in the future, yeah,
potentially. But in the beginning, I'm just
(08:37):
going to charge a flat fee to use our services and and
basically, you know, you could charge 5101520 thousand a month,
but you're creating overnight impact.
It's unbelievable. You know, you go to a like a
product page and if you redesignthat thing and it converts at
like half a point better, you have just created such
unbelievable value for that business that what is 5 grand to
(08:59):
them when they're going to be making 100 grand more per month?
Yeah, so. I think a, a key differentiator
with starting any agency is not just impact, but provable
attributable impact, right? Because if you have like a,
let's say you have like a marketing strategy agency and
you're going to get on calls andsay I would do this and I would
do that. And it's all kind of nebulous.
(09:20):
It just doesn't work right? Or like a fractional CFOs are
exploding right now, right? Instead of hiring someone for 10
grand a month to be a CFO, you know, your, your business isn't
really big enough, you could pay$2500 a month for someone to be
a fractional CFO, etcetera. That sells so well because it's
directly tied to value. You get your PNL, you get your
balance sheet every month. That's what you need, right?
(09:41):
But the reason that like fractional Coos aren't really a
thing is because it's like, how do you tie it to the value as
closely as in finance or if you had like an e-mail marketing
agency. I took your opening click
through rate from this to this. That was because of me, $3500 a
month, please. Yes, if you if you can't do
that, you're going to be fighting uphill the entire time.
(10:04):
So those are the ones you just named is exactly what I tell
people to start if like they want to go into the service
business. Because having lived on the
other side of this as a brand, Ican tell you that the the two
most impactful service based industries to go into in the
future that will always have a life, no matter AI or not is
e-mail marketing and CRO. Those two are to your point,
(10:28):
incredible immediate impact and it's like not even a
conversation. There's no, you don't have to
prove anything. It's just like look at the
numbers, look at the data, is itbetter or worse or whatever.
And those are the quickest to propelling you to the next
level. You dial in your CRO, you dial
in your e-mail and it is incredible overnight impact and
(10:48):
those agencies will just never lose.
That's why SEO is so tough is because it takes forever.
So like gone are the days of like, well, it's going to take
you a year to see results. It's going to take you a week
with CRO. So congratulations, you're on to
something now. And for people that want to know
tactically what to use on the CRO front, it's the program we
(11:09):
use is Intelligems and it is oneof the best we've ever used.
I love it. We use it every single day we
have. Tons of.
Tests running and I'm going to use this platform with even my
other agency still it it's just the best.
We've tried a bunch of Intelligem's roles.
Well, dude, one of my one of my most favorite like pastimes is
(11:32):
to log into our Clavio account and just start tinkering and
just look in messing with flows,one of my most popular
newsletters of all time. Yeah, I think it was called like
how to quickest path to 20 KA month and it was basically join
a Facebook group for e-commerce business owners post and say,
hey, I like Clavio, it's cool. I want to tinker.
I want to improve your brand forfree, 100% for free.
(11:54):
Give me read only access to yourClavio account.
Let me tinker around in there. I won't send anything before
talking to you. In fact, I won't even have
permission to send anything. Let me mess with your flows.
Let me see if I can get your revenue per recipient up and
then like get a couple free casestudies.
You're probably going to enjoy it, right?
If you don't enjoy it, then finda different business.
If you do, keep going, pretty soon you're going to have people
(12:16):
lined up to pay you $2500 a month to improve their Clavio
flows or to add new flows or cart abandonment or welcome
e-mail or happy birthday you ordered a year ago.
Like there's so many levers to pull inside Clavio.
Or with CRO conversion rate optimization, like just Start
learning intelligent geeking out.
See if you can get their conversion rate from 3.1 to
3.15. That's interesting, right?
(12:38):
What you just said about that, that process you just walked
through, I try to tell people this all the time because they
ever I get pitched to use these agencies like a million times a
day. And I tell them I'm like, dude,
all you would have to do to get me to sign up like within 10
(12:58):
seconds is do a shred of pro bono work.
Just do a shred. Just show me something of value.
And but no one wants to do that work right?
Everyone is just lead Gen. S scale.
Let me just mass e-mail every single business in the world and
get them to sign up. Dude, the path to getting a true
classic As for a huge retainer is doing exactly what you just
(13:20):
said, which is show and prove your value and do a bunch of
work up free. If you want all the money, do a
little bit upfront and and really show us and dial in and
go, because how are we going to say no to that, right?
Like if you actually do that work and you show us the value
and you've already spent the time and energy, there's almost
(13:40):
zero chance I can say no. And even to this day when I get
people that are like, Hey, I have this actor or this athlete
that wants to work with you and I'm just like, OK, and then
what? Like you haven't done the work
to tell me what that even means for true classic.
You're just saying, Hey, I got this guy, pay me this money.
The end. That does not work for me these
(14:01):
days. I try to tell these agents, I'm
like, you guys have got to spendtime getting creative, coming up
with a solution that works for us.
What is on brand, what will workfor our customers, not just hey,
guy type price. Do it together.
It's like, dude, I'm out of thatland from from you.
So, you know, now, now they haveto go way back to the drawing
board and they're like, forget true classic.
(14:24):
This is like, I have to do work like I'm out of here.
Like on to the brand. Even with like, you know, we do
like these big partnerships now,like we're with the UFC or with
the Clippers or with the Kings or with the Rams, like we're
doing all these big sexy brand deals and even with them
originally they would and UFC has been an amazing partner by
(14:45):
the way. Like I have no complaints, but
like some of these other ones that I have worked with, dude,
they come with these proposals. That's like, you know, a
million, 2,000,000 bucks a year.We're going to put you on a on
the Jumbotron with your logo andthe end.
Oh my gosh, I've been pitched that before too.
Are you talking about, dude, like, unless you're taking a
(15:08):
little Johnny from the top of the rafters to courtside and
making an impact, I don't want to hear it.
So come back with your proposal that is filled with
thoughtfulness. Let's show up for the fans.
Let's give them free product. Let's create a moment for them
because that's what I'm trying to do.
Like, if you don't come with impact, I don't want to hear it.
Don't show me your sexy deck with big numbers and all these
(15:30):
impressions. You're not going to win me over,
right? You come with and initiatives
and charity work and ways to show up for humans.
Now I give and they leave those meetings like like so deflated.
But I'll tell you, dude, when they come back to the table with
those second and third proposals, they come correct
(15:52):
because they know exactly what I'm looking for.
And it's so different than all the other brands they work with
because they're like, well, Bud Light just says like, here's
some money and then just do a thing.
It's like, yeah, dude, we're notBud Light.
Like we're, we're scrappy, a startup, just so you know, like
we quantify our dollars. So like just don't go that route
and you will get our business. That's so good.
(16:16):
OK. So if we're talking agencies, if
you were to rank from most to least promising or from most
demand but lowest supply like the greatest asymmetric bets in
starting a service business or an agency today, where would you
rank them from, from best to worst?
Definitely CRO #1, because even with e-mail I would put e-mail
(16:38):
#2 but with e-mail there is a bit of a ceiling where like the
creativity like can just hit a bit of a limit even with us,
like we've tried to like the well.
The lower ceiling. Yeah, like the whereas, like
CRO, there's so many components to a website, right?
Like on e-mail, it's literally just an e-mail, the end subject
(16:58):
line. And even with e-mail, like we've
done some amazing things with like Maverick AI.
Do you know what Maverick AI is?It's like where I sat in a room
and they recorded me and I went through every name in the
English language for like 2 hours and I said like hey
Jennifer, hey Derek. And then they piece it all
together and I tell a story withsaying their name off the RIP so
(17:22):
that you like capture them, right?
It's so mad. I love it.
So like that is taking e-mail tothe next next level, but like
beyond that, there's nothing left.
It's like we've already done it at the highest level.
So now with CRO though, I'm telling you, dude, my in house
guys come with a proposal every week and we sit there for like
an hour and just riff on ideas and we come out with some of the
(17:44):
most amazing stuff and it just evolves and evolves and evolves.
And then the next week it's something else.
And it never ends. Which means for an agency,
you'll never run out of ideas. Like you'll just keep growing
e-mail. I've seen these agencies, they
come in, they do good work for like a month or two and then
after like 6 to 8 months, it's starting to like hit its limits
(18:07):
already and they're out within ayear.
So like CRO, you get a good agency, dude, they're never
leaving because upside is tremendous.
So. Oh dude, I have a headache in a
in a good way. This has been really, really
good. I'm just happy to be here
talking to you and like minded entrepreneurs are.
(18:27):
They're tough to find again and even like you walking through
some of your examples shows me that you're thinking about
things the right way. That is a rare quality and it's
something I look for in people even that we hire here.
Like we go through homework assignments and like we get to
see how their train of thought works.
(18:48):
And I will tell you that what we've learned over six years of
hiring hundreds and hundreds of people that what works best here
are entrepreneurs. And what we know about them is
that they might not be here thatlong because they are going to
go start their own thing. And we're OK with that.
But while we have them here, they think about things the
right way. They think about the customer,
(19:08):
they think about the journey, they think about thoughtfulness.
They, they are scrappy. They're Jack of all trades.
Like they're all the things you need for this business to work
because that's who we are, right?
Like we're those guys. We're kind of like masters of
none, Jack of all trades. And we're dangerous at every
little thing, but we're not specialists.
Now you still need some specialists like finance, for
(19:29):
example, like you need those, but I heavily index on the Jack
of all trades guys just like yourself.
If I were to find a guy like youthat was in the working
environment, like, I would snatch them in a heartbeat
because it's it's a rare quality.
Well, I hope that brings people comfort to hear that because you
know, you get stressed out if you chase shiny objects and all
these rabbits and you know, a little bit about Facebook ads, a
(19:51):
little bit about copywriting, a little bit about e-commerce.
Like lean into it. It doesn't make you
unemployable. It makes you an even better
employee if if you decide to go that route or a better employer,
right. And over time with all that
surface area of little things that you've tested and tried,
you're naturally going to find things that you love the most.
And then you will become a specialist accidentally on
certain things within all of those trades.
(20:15):
Yeah. The other thing I would say as
it relates to that, if we're talking about employees, the one
thing that makes the biggest difference in the world is
identifying impact versus busy work and putting all your energy
towards impact. Now people would say, well,
yeah, but I got to get the work done.
Yes, I'm just saying energy deployed needs to be 80, twenty,
(20:38):
80% of your energy towards impactful things for the
business, 20% to busy work and learn AI, Liam, AI agents find
ways to get that busy work off your plate because if you want
to go from intern to CEO, it will only be on impact.
It will not be because you worked a busier than the other
busy bees in the company. It will because you identified
(20:59):
something, you created opportunity, you found it, you
did. You had the initiative and the
insight to go after and figure it out.
That is true impact. And because of the thing that
you found, it was wildly successful for the company.
Impact is so tough to understandthough.
When you come into a company, you have to listen to your
leaders, you have to talk to thebusiness owners, you have to
(21:21):
learn what is impactful to the business.
Like if you were to come in today and you would go, Ryan,
what, what would work for true classic.
What do you think? I would say, I would say, dude,
study CRO. I know you're in operations
right now, but if you came out with a CRO win, you think I
wouldn't credit you towards thatand give you something out of
that and excel you in the company?
Like I don't care where it comesfrom, it's just find a way to be
(21:44):
impactful and you are really on to something as an employee.
I mean, just to just back of thenapkin, let's say you, I imagine
you have several $1,000,000 dayson your website, right?
Dividing your annual sales by 365, let's say you have
$1,000,000 day, 3 1/2% conversion rate.
Yeah, we're, we're averaging, you know, anywhere from unlike a
(22:06):
random day, it could be as low as like, you know, 250 days all
the way up to, you know, Black Friday.
It gets into like multi $1,000,000 days.
And then how many visitors per day on average are you getting?
It's somewhere between 100 to 150,000 a day.
OK, so if you have 100,000 visitors a day, that's 3500
(22:27):
orders at a 3 1/2% conversion rate.
If you find some intern that gets your conversion rate from
3.5 to 3.6, that's an extra 100 orders, right?
Is that right? No, I could, I think it would be
a little bit more, but like I get where you're going with it
dude. If anything moves CVR, you are
(22:47):
on your way. Like if I was a guy that knew
nothing about that world and I had came up with an idea or I
saw a post somewhere or I was surfing and I put it in that
Channel on Slack where all of usare and it did something.
Dude, you have just now become wildly valuable even outside of
whatever you do in your particular role.
(23:07):
Like understanding impact as it relates to certain industries
and just putting an idea out there is so important.
I mean, we have a channel in Slack called Ideas, and that can
come things, inspiration can come from all sorts of different
people in all sorts of differentways.
And that really empowers people to just always be curious in
learning and figuring things outand looking to what's next and
(23:30):
give us a nugget. And that nugget can turn into a
mountain very quickly if it's great.
Even if you just give like the inkling of an idea that someone
else turns into something real, right, you're still the
originator of the idea and they're, they're going to tie
that to you. That's what happened with the
teacher initiative. It was one idea from like a
(23:50):
social manager. And she was like, hey, we should
like, you know, it's the end of the school or beginning of the
school year, and these people need help.
And I was like, what is this? And I looked into it and dude, I
turned it into a mountain. I took that little nugget and I
expanded on it and I blew it up into this big thing about within
a month we're on like every newscast.
(24:12):
And I was spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on wish
list. And now I have this community of
amazing teachers that support meand follow me and, and they
follow every move I make. And here I am every year
spending all this money to help them.
And it started from 1:00 conceptfrom one person who was not that
high up on the chain at all. But dude, even in this
(24:34):
conversation, her name is Tiffany.
I give her credit in almost every podcast I'm on that they
bring this up. I'm like, and I want to forever
champion her and clap her up because she deserves it, dude.
She was there putting in the work, figuring out what people
need and how to drive value to them.
You know what you very easily could have said, what most
leaders would have said is, thanks, Tiffany, super cool
(24:56):
idea. We're just kind of focused on XY
or Z right now. Exactly.
But that's the magic that happens when you see a thread
and you pull on it, it's like, where will this go?
Where will this go? Chasing shiny objects, right?
And I'm obviously obsessed with impact, so the more I looked
into it, I was just like these poor teachers, do they have to
spend their own money at these Title One schools?
(25:18):
They have to spend their own money to get supplies for kids.
I'm like, and I have 3 kids. I have three young kids and I'm
just like, I can't even imagine what that looks like.
This is insane what they're going through.
So it was like, how can I not show up for these guys?
Right. What's next for true classic
public exit cash flow? I definitely do not want to be
in the public markets. I have a lot of friends that are
(25:39):
in the public markets and what alife they live with all the
stress and I just dude, I am like how do I de stress and make
my life simpler and better and easier.
I'm in that kind of part of my career.
So I think what I'd like to do is potentially a big majority
deal sometime next year or the following year because this
(26:00):
business went through a huge growth year with wholesale,
we're looking very attractive toinvestors.
So I am in a place where I'm just like, let's either do like
a, you know, a 40% or maybe a 60% if the price is right.
And then I can go on and do these other things like what we
were talking about developing some sort of operator school and
(26:21):
just empowering entrepreneurs and helping them and teaching
them or some sort of a YouTube live show where people just come
on similar to like the, I don't know if you've ever watched Gary
Vee do his, uh, tea with Gary Vee, like a version of that.
Because I would just, I would crush those environments where
people just come on and hit me with questions, questions and
like I just give them a little bit or I look at their website
and I just start destroying their website and going, dude,
(26:43):
you got to move this here. You got to do that.
I could see something like that being great for people.
So we'll see though. Oh, Ryan, well, this was
perfect. Even better than I had hoped.
And I had high hopes. So where?
Where do you want people to findyou?
Basically my name across all thesocials.
I'm sure we'll link it up somewhere, but Instagram to
Twitter, LinkedIn, Yeah. It's just my name.
(27:04):
Ryan Bartlett across basically everything.
You know, I can definitely be found.
I'm happy to answer questions for entrepreneurs.
It's something I love. Even to this day.
People are hitting me a lot and I'm taking a lot of time because
I wish I had that when I was younger.
Like, I really wish I had somebody kind of guiding me in
the right direction. It would have saved me a lot of
time and energy and money, frankly.
(27:25):
Yeah, I'm, I'm easy to find on social if if you just got to
search for my name. OK.
And then true classictease.com, of course, yeah.
Trueclassic.com I still haven't changed the URL because I'm I
noticed. That it redirects right?
I'm worried about the organic implications coming from the SEO
world. I'm just like, I've seen so
many, I blame you disasters and I'm just like, I'll just leave,
(27:48):
it's fine. All right.
Well, thank you. Yeah, man, it was fun.
Hey guys, if you're still listening to this, it's probably
because you haven't had a chanceto take your air pods out.
You're still mowing the lawn, you're still driving, what have
you. If you're still here with me, I
would really, really love and appreciate a five star review on
Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast.
It would mean a lot. If you want to go the extra
(28:09):
mile, share this episode with a friend that might have an
interest in starting a business.It would mean a ton.
Hope you have the best day of your life today.
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