The Truth About the Music Industry’s Money Game⏐Ep. #235

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I graduated high school in 2005 and believe it or not, I was an
emo kid in high school and I firmly believe that 2003 was
peak emo, the best year for emo music ever.
But what does that have to do with business?
Well, the other day I noticed that one of my emo heroes,
Acenders, was following me on Instagram.
If you've ever heard of Taking Back Sunday, Brand new, the
early November, something corporate, etcetera, those are

(00:20):
emo bands and Acenders is a legend in the emo scene.
He was the lead singer of the Early November and now he has
his own solo act called EastEnders and he's freaking
awesome. And so Idemed him and said let's
talk about the music business onmy podcast.
He said let's do it. So yes, we talk about music, but
we also talk about business ideas and the music industry and
how much artists are paid. And I think you'll love this

(00:42):
conversation because I'm enthusiastic about it and my
data shows that if I'm excited about something, you guys are
excited about something. So please enjoy this
conversation with Ace Enders of the Early November and of Ace
Enders and also check out his new album that's coming out on
Halloween. What was the with the Get Up
Kids drama? We got sued by them.

(01:04):
We did this tribute on The Room's Too Cold where we used
one of their lines and we got approvals.
But I guess there was like some crossed wires in the approvals
and we released the single like 3 weeks after we got the
approvals because things, you know, moved differently back
then. Then they slapped a lawsuit on
us, a gag order like percentage of the song and everything.

(01:27):
It was like devastating because they were like my heroes back in
the day. So it was like you, you learned
really quickly, wait, this is a business.
This is not a, you know, we're all out here like rooting for
each other type of thing. And where my point of view was
like, I'm going to use these words because they help shape me
as an artist or a young artist. You know, it's just one of those
unfortunate incidents where it'slike, OK, now I can never say

(01:51):
this because why? I think there was like a gag
order for a certain amount of time back then.
It was like 8 or 10 years or whatever.
We couldn't say anything and we had to continue to pay
royalties. Yeah, it's like they got like
large percentage of the songs. Oh man.
Royalties. But I mean, it's, you know,
whatever they were doing, what they felt they had to do, and,

(02:12):
you know, it's an unfortunate thing.
Isn't it funny how like in the moment it was like the worst
thing that had happened year, but looking back it's like that
was honestly nothing? Yeah, well, I mean, it
definitely still is a bitter spot to me because I'm so I
think so differently. I can never imagine even if
someone was like, yo, I'm stealing this.
I could never imagine being likeart, man.

(02:33):
It's whatever. It's like this is not something
you can put really put too much of A like a boundary on.
Everybody can have their interpretation of it.
It's a weird thing. Music is the industry is weird
like that. It's like, you know, you got
your people who take it extremely seriously who are
like, it's all about business. And then you got the people who
are the other side where it's just like, it's really just
about that human connection and cultivating that type of, I

(02:56):
guess that type of relationship with your listener.
How do you feel about Taylor Swift being like so emotionally
invested in her master's and buying it back?
Like, do you feel that or do youfeel like she's kind of overly
invested in it? Like where do you stand on that?
I think that it's super smart. If you can do it, you should do
it. I mean, we fight for so little

(03:20):
and we have so little that we get from it.
To be able to own your master's and do whatever you want with
them and then collect a residual, a bigger residual for
the rest of your life. Like, and then eventually later
down the road when she's not theTaylor Swift of today, go back
and sell them to the, you know, to somebody who's willing to pay
probably, you know, outrageous amount of money for like, that's

(03:44):
pretty, pretty smart. She's done everything right in
terms of all that. If I could do it, I would, but I
can't, so here I am. Who owns the rights or the
masters to the room's too cold today?
Drive through does. Drive through does, Yeah.
And it's kind of tough to reallylocate anything because I don't
even know where any of that money goes.
Like those streaming royalties, all that stuff, you have

(04:06):
millions of streams, but it's like, I don't know who's getting
that. We have no, nobody has any idea
where that stuff goes. And things were very different
back then. You know, it was really,
however, it was all imported into the current landscape.
I have no idea, but it's there. And, and like I said, if I could
do it, I would, but that's just not an option.

(04:26):
It's, it's crazy to track down any of that stuff.
It got very complicated, like inthe mid 2000s, like when people,
I don't know, like some businesses rose, some businesses
crumbled when it came to the industry side of things.
And it's like a lot of stuff gotsort of lost in the mix there.
It's a weird time. So drive through makes all the

(04:48):
streaming royalties for the stuff that drive through owns
and you don't make any of it. There's all these different like
YouTube sites that monetize it and whatnot.
It's like I have no, we've no are you yeah, no one has any
idea how to collect on it or track it or anything.
It's like to you have to jump through so many, you know, hoops

(05:09):
just to get there. And by the time you got there,
the juice is probably not worth the squeeze and what you paid to
actually get there sort of just move on from it.
Man, Yeah. I mean, there could be a
business there, right? There could be an opportunity
there for someone to like, go through that friction and hassle
and headache of like, tracking it down and like building a
system around it and like connecting it with its rightful
owner, if the numbers make sense.

(05:31):
Yeah, I think it it would be a very limited business.
You know, it would be like, if it made sense for like a certain
number of times, you could do it.
But it's not something like that's the way things are
tracked now. That's not going to be able to
happen again. So it's just with this like,
small pocket of, like, kids who came from basements and, like,
alleys and like, playing these small venues that turned into
this crazy, massive mainstream business.

(05:54):
Then it got on the rails after that.
But it's like anything from thatpocket.
Sure. Yeah.
It's wild. It's like bands that came up in
the 90s and before, like that's kind of established, right?
But there was like this loopholeperiod.
There's like a dead spot betweenlike 2000 and 2010.
Is that kind of what you're talking about?
That's exactly where we're talking about.
Yeah, we. Switch from from records to
streaming and it's like who ownswhat?

(06:16):
Who's getting paid what? Yeah.
And so many things were like handshake deals too at that
point because like you referenced the 90s, which I
think is a great reference. But that was all like major your
label stuff like if you were a band that was popping in the
90s, like you were a major label, more than likely because
that was the only way to do it And their numbers were always
right. But when it came to that 2000s,
like people were making labels in their garage and like they

(06:40):
didn't have their books right. Nothing was like it was just it
just took off. And it was like, hold on for
your hold on to your, you know, your butts.
Here we go. Samuel Jackson saying the line,
the famous line from from Jurassic Park, it's like here we
go. And I don't think anybody was
really ready for that to happen.So that's kind of like where it
got shuffled lost in the shuffle.

(07:00):
Let's stick on this period for aminute because I have a lot of
questions like call it 2000 to 2010.
You can even call it like 2007 or 8.
If you were to assign a percentage between like a band
that made it, let's say like My Chemical Romance, right, because
they made it more than most in that era, what percentage of
that would you attribute to talent and skill?
And what percentage of it is marketing, like really good

(07:21):
marketing, marketing and distribution?
I would go like maybe 40% talentand skill, and that's not taking
away anything from my Cam because they are phenomenal and
have written amazing songs. But that period of time, there
were so many amazing artists that didn't get the same thing.

(07:41):
I think their marketing was phenomenal.
The way that they hit a lane andthen we're able to capitalize in
that lane and just continue to run with it.
They saw the window, went through the window and they, the
airflow just kept pushing them. So that was a very lightning in
a bottle situation. And I think a lot of times when
you see these bands that have existed from back then that were

(08:06):
maybe in my mind as a competitorback then, I I would say friend,
but also as like a, you know, a friendly competitor be like, how
did this band get so big? Well, partially because we're
more savvy, you know, they were more savvy in business.
And I mean, one of our best friends starting out was Fall
Out Boy. And they were notably as well,

(08:26):
one of the biggest of this of the scene.
And you know, we probably playedlike these venues were talking
about the social with Fall Out Boy.
And like, you know, we we used to tour together all a bunch
back then, but they were driven by a different mechanism in the
sense that, like the Pete who ran the band was very savvy.
He was very good at business. He was very good at running a

(08:47):
very tight ship. Whereas we were more like a
little bit more of loose cannons.
Yeah, a little bit more of a loose cannon.
And we came from very humble beginnings.
So it's like, you know, we didn't have that type of
foundation, that type of structure that other people had.
Also, we didn't have a manager for a really long time because
our label was like, we don't want you to get a manager.

(09:08):
It's going to make things reallycomplicated.
Hindsight's 2020, though, looking back, you're like, oh,
wait, no, that actually would have probably got us on track a
lot quicker. For them, it made life easier
because they could control everything.
But for us, it, you know, made us maybe a little bit more
chaotic in learning how to run, you know, a business at 19 being

(09:31):
like, we're making all this money.
I don't know. We don't know what to do with
it. We don't even have like
insurance on the van right now. It's like we're just we're just
doing, you know, and that's likeyou don't nobody teaches you
that stuff when it happens that quick.
So to answer your question in a really long way, I think a lot
of it when you see successes that are big like that from back

(09:52):
then, it's like somebody in the band had the plan, had the idea
and was able to see it a mile ahead and say, no, we're taking
that exit and we're doing that. We're doing that because that's
going to lead us here to this next thing.
It's like if you didn't have that foresight, you might not
have been able to. And then you have, there was
like a ton of major labels picking up these bands off of

(10:13):
Indies for like a really cheap price.
Like he's like going through a thrift store and being like, oh,
if I just found something that Icould flip on eBay for like, you
know, I'll buy it for 15 bucks and now I'm, you know, flipping
it for 150. And that's what a lot of major
labels did with a lot of these indie bands.
Can you give me an example of that?
Like there's 84 questions I wantto ask you right now.

(10:33):
What's an example of like an indie band that got flipped?
And do you know the unit economics of what that deal
looked like? Well, every deal was a little
bit different. So I could say like, let's say
people who were on the drive through roster, there was a
couple of them that that happened to one of them being
something corporate, right? Remember something corporate?
Jack Madigan? Yeah.
You're a man. It's my freaking hero.
Andrew McMahon's phenomenal. He's great, great dude and.

(10:55):
Saw him at Red Rocks. Yeah, that was awesome.
We got to play a couple shows onthat tour, which is awesome.
So we. Oh, no way.
Yeah, we did. We did a couple of the dates in
Chicago and here in New Jersey. But yeah, it was, it was sick.
And, you know, obviously great to catch up.
But when they got signed drive through initially found them
wanted to sign drive through, right.
And they were always branded as a drive through brand for the

(11:16):
cred for like the Indycred. But in the back end of things,
MCA owned drive through. They owned a portion of drive
through. They like bought into the
company, but in that contract stated that they would be able
to upstream a band whenever theywanted to drive through, would
get a finder's fee of like 50K or something like that and then.
Think of the litter. Exactly.

(11:37):
And then and then, you know, when they did that with
something corporate, they prettymuch drive through, brought him
in. And then MCA was pretty much
like, I think we got you already.
So they like they took it and asthe band, yeah.
And so like for the band, whatever they initially did with
drive through would ultimately end up being their contract, but

(11:58):
they would renegotiate when it came, you know, when it came
time to make that, you know, whatever next steps with MCA at
the time. So it was like when we signed
our contract, it was similar. It was like, MCA really owns
this, but you're under drive through.
So unless MCA wants to come in and say you're ours now, you are

(12:18):
working under this current contract, which is XML for
record one, XML for record 2, XML for record 3.
I mean, our first contract was insane.
It was 6 albums with like 9 options, which is your entire
career. Yeah.
So it was it Ultimately it had to end up buying out of it to
leave the deal and and go somewhere else.
But so that would happen across the board with a lot of these

(12:40):
bands. We could use a couple more
examples of New Found Glory started out the same way.
They start on drive through, MCAcame and got them senses fail,
same situation. And then their deals would get
renegotiated based on what MCA projected.
They could potentially, you know, get out of that, like if
they were going to be a radio band, if they could work it in
that way. So all of these deals were

(13:01):
similar, but the money or the return on what that investment
would be would always be different because again, you're
taking a really unsure thing andsaying, all right, we're going
to try and do something with this and if it doesn't work out,
we're going to be able to shelf it forever.
So there's a lot of those bands that that happened to.
Copeland was one of my favorite bands.
I loved, still love them. And they were on an indie label.

(13:24):
They got, they did a record on aa major, they got a great budget
to do it. They got to make the record they
wanted. But at the end of the day, these
things are heavily structured onback end.
You don't really get if you sign$1,000,000 record contract, it's
not that they're going to hand you $1,000,000 the next day.
It's like this is encompasses everything.
The value of the whole contract,yeah, this is what?

(13:45):
Goes into making it. This is what goes into the
marketing, all, everything. So, you know, at the end of the
day, they put out this record ona major label and maybe didn't
perform up to what the major thought.
So then they can just be like, all right, well, we're just
going to sit on you for the nextX amount of time until we decide
we figured out what we want to do.
You might get dropped and you might, but you're definitely not

(14:06):
making a record. So it's a really complicated
thing. There's a huge.
Power imbalance and you guys are19, super stoked to see any bit
of money. And they like incentives, Dr.
everything. And it's not that like drive
through MCA are bad people. They're just driven by
incentives. Like all of us are 30% and like
what a good deal for MCA. Like drive through probably

(14:26):
needed the investment. And MCA is like, there's this
little clause, I'm going to callit the pick of the litter
clause. And basically anyone good that
you get, we're going to legally steal from you and profit off
of. So you'll never really have
anyone that good. You'll just have a bunch of
middle of the pack guys. Yeah.
You just hit it on the head 100%.
Yeah. And I love that you said how you
stated that, too. It's like really smart.

(14:47):
Yeah. It it seems like a power
imbalance. But at the at the end of the
day, they're not evil for doing what they're doing.
They're running. They're running their business
and they're good at it. You know, we as musicians and
artists, especially in this business, you'll see it's like a
lot of like talk a lot of like, this is the bad guy.
But if I was the business, we would all want to do the same

(15:08):
thing, right? Not take advantage of anybody,
but capitalize where you can. And it's like creates a weird
environment. Yeah, for sure.
Did you see that? Netflix documentary Dirty Pop
No. Oh, you got to.
See it, it's about the guy who created, you know, Backstreet
Boys at NC. He put them together and the
whole, you know, documentaries can convince anyone of anything.
I've fallen guilty to it. And the whole thing is framed

(15:30):
like was named Luke Pearlman or Luke Pearlman something how he's
just like this big bad, evil guybecause they he forced, you
know, Justin Timberlake and all these guys to sign these
contracts that were a bit. But like, he was flying them
around in private jets. They were living the life.
He paid for all their albums. They were touring the world.
And like, he made them. He made them.

(15:50):
And so I'm like, I look at everything with a bit of nuance
and I'm just like, yeah, yeah, he probably did some shady
things because these kids were 17, but like, I don't know.
He also made them. Yeah.
So look. Yeah, you could take that any
way you want, really. And I have to agree.
And I think you look at just howpeople will judge anything when

(16:14):
it comes to art. And you brought up Taylor Swift
a little bit earlier, but it's like I've been seeing since this
record came out last week, you go open up any social media and
it's like just people giving their expert opinion on why it's
a awful album and how bad it is.But wait a second.
Here's a song I wrote about it. Listen to my song.
Like, what are you? What are you even doing right

(16:36):
now? You know?
So it's like it's, it's insane how people will take something
and not realize how much of A hypocrite they're being when
you're you're willing to judge and criticize somebody, but then
trying to capitalize off of whatthey just did for your own
benefit. It's mind blowing.
What did these? Contracts look like back in the

(16:57):
day like how much cash upfront, how much guaranteed versus not
guaranteed what what is like thepercentage look over time, yeah,
so. Of the way the standard contract
was that a bunch of the bands inmy era at least signed when you
first started or the first one that they would send you would
be like, you're going to make anEP, which is a shorter version

(17:18):
of a, you know, an album. Traditional full length will be
like 12 songs, 10 to 12 songs, but you're going to make an EP
which is going to be at least 6 songs.
And that EP is going to be say we're going to give you $11,000
to make the EP and that covers your.
Cost or that goes in your pocketthat.
Would cover just the cost of making the album, your living

(17:38):
while you're making the album. So if it takes you a month to
record a six song EP, you're going to be in the studio you're
going to have that's going to cover your hotel, your food, the
what it cost to make it. And that would be, you know,
right then, then you have certain things that exist in the
contract as well. Like if you hit this point, you
sell this many records for LP-2 or LP-1, you're going to get

(18:02):
25,000. LP two, you're going to get 50.
When we did the The Mother Mechanic in the Path, which is a
triple disc album, that was I believe we were contracted for
like 75,000 for that album, but they ended up paying 1:50 just
because they, you know, they believed in it.
So it was like as big and bad asyou want to say a lot of things

(18:23):
are, they still ended up taking more of a risk because, you
know, they saw the potential that was that was in it as well.
So that album, you know, we had to live somewhere for where for
three months making it as well as hire a a bunch of musicians
hire, you know, rent out the studio, like book out the studio
for three months solid. So out of that 150, what you

(18:46):
pocket is pretty much zero and everything goes into the making
of the album. If it were today, I mean, I'd be
like, yeah, I'm going to make 98% of it right here where I'm
sitting with all these guitars and instruments around me.
And you know, it's going to costus a fraction of that.
But back then you didn't have those things.

(19:07):
You know, it's like just to record to tape.
A lot of people don't realize torecord to tape 2 inch tape,
which is like, you know, that went out of style in the the mid
2000s. But a reel to reel tape was like
like $250 just for like a, an 8 minute section of tape.
So like you had to have like a ton of them and that adds up

(19:29):
quickly when you're, you know, working for that type of off of
that type of budget anyway. So the.
Money they give you upfront, youdon't really make anything off
that. That's to like produce the the
album, yes. What are you making on the album
sales like 1520% that. Is all coming off of how fast
the company recoups. So in the recouping in the

(19:51):
numbers of, you know, you get, you'll get a mechanical royalty.
That's going to be a very small percentage.
It's all going to be different. I don't remember exactly what
ours was at that point. If you sold the album for 1499
in stores, X amount $8 went to, you know, the label, the you
know, the rest of it went through distribution, store,
whatever you would probably walkaway with like you know.

(20:11):
A dollar or something like that,You or your.
Band like the band. The band at that point, it
wasn't like anything great. It wasn't anything like you made
your money touring and in merch.So that was where we made most
of our, you know, money back then.
Now, is that a? Buck to the band after their
their upfront costs were recoup,or before that is.
A very tricky question because I'll tell you again, the books

(20:33):
were easily cooked at that point, you know, So it's like
tracking like you're. Not asking for audited
financials as a 19 year old, right, Right and.
It's very different how it was tracked.
So like if you sold records on, let's say, like if you're
talking to Best Buy, yeah, they're gonna buy a certain
amount. OK, great.

(20:53):
If it's gonna go on the end cap of Best Buy, though, that's
going to complicate things because it cost money to be on
the end cap. So based on how long you're on
the end cap is going to see a different, like you're going to
get a different percentage. So there's all sorts of things
that are going to complicate it like that.
But I'll use a very specific metric here.
If you're on the road, when you had to account for sales, you

(21:15):
pretty much had to write it downon a piece of paper.
What you sold that night, somebody from the venue would
sign it. You would then fax that over to
the whatever it was called, I forget the name of the the
company that was like for, you know, doing all those, you know,
keeping track. Nielsen, Nielsen, there you go.
Yes, you'd have to you'd have tosend it there and then that

(21:36):
would then go to however, the label would factor that into
their recouping and what they'verecouped on everything.
You're not like. I believe that technically
there's albums that we've made from back then and based off of
how easy it it was to move around numbers and you know,
there's probably things that we're not recouped on back from

(21:56):
25 years ago. I mean, which realistically we
probably are because nobody knows where the streaming money
goes at this point. Like it's it's super complex,
but back then you would either hide numbers or inflate numbers
trying to work in your favor in any way that you possibly could.
So if some. Like Groupie on tour fudges the
numbers because they want your your ratings to look better,

(22:19):
like, and they do it every nightfor 100 tour stops in a row.
Then Nielsen's reporting that yes.
And it's just some handwritten note that was faxed, yes.
Yes. And it's people did that.
People did that. They didn't realize that, OK,
well, that in the long run is going to end up biting you.
This money that you're saying you have to turn this money in

(22:43):
somewhere because you owe for those records.
They're not. Just because they're yours or
you're the artist doesn't mean they're yours.
This is this physical copy. You don't own that.
You own the idea, but you don't own that.
So like, you then have to pay the record company for those.
So if you're fudging the numbers, you're going to lose
money because they're going to come looking at a check or

(23:03):
they're looking to you for a check or they're going to add it
to your recouping statement, which you're never going to
climb out of because there's a mysterious 10,000 records that
are sold. So it's it was tough to make
money on records back then. So really.
If you sign a deal, you're hoping that they can market you,
they can distribute your stuff. You're not going to really make

(23:23):
money on the deal or on the albums.
You're going to make money on your merch and on your touring.
Yeah. Most of the time, and hopefully.
You're have a higher chance of hitting scale with the album and
of just getting your cost covered.
Yeah, theoretically. Yeah.
Yeah, hopefully. And, and this is like, you know,
a little bit dated. Obviously this is back then and
now things are very, very different than they were at that

(23:46):
point. Every deal is structured
differently now. You're not going to come across
a record deal that's like 6 albums long that's just doesn't
exist anymore. So those financial tiers are
also outdated. Like you've probably noticed,
like most people release singlesnow.
It's like pretty much just singles.
It's just a different way of doing things.

(24:07):
And most deals are 5050 splits at this point because labels are
putting forth less marketing money because they know that
chances are social media happen.Yeah.
Yeah. And the artists can.
Market themselves easier than ever before, right?
Right, they can. Doesn't mean they will.
Yeah, it doesn't mean they. Will it doesn't mean they're
going to be good at it or peopleare going to care.

(24:29):
At. All, Yeah.
So I mean. Back in the day you had to have
St. teams like I remember getting like.
Packets full of. Stickers and albums and just my
room was littered with them. Like, did you guys do that much?
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, and that was one of
the big things that got got these types of bands off the
ground. And today is is very different
because people's attention spansare so short.

(24:50):
So when it comes to music specifically, that's why I think
everything sort of shifted in this way because it was really
important to have that connection back then.
Now it's like, how can I be mostviral most quickly with the
least amount of effort and resources spent?
It's a total different game. You have to be very, very social
media savvy. Did you hear the?
Story about how little Nas X like growth hacked Old Town Rd.

(25:14):
No. He starts.
The song with the chorus, who does that right?
And the length of the song is soshort that like I, I don't
remember how it works, but in order to get paid for a stream
it has to be like 30 seconds. He engineered the song to when
it loops, you don't realize it'slooping because the chorus comes
in again. So he basically get paid twice

(25:35):
for every stream because it was so short.
Like people are expecting a 3 1/2 minute song.
It's a 2 minute song. The chorus is at the beginning.
So he got paid twice for every stream basically that's.
Wild, that's why. And it.
It was like, it was like Tiktokified because it was so
short. It was so catchy.
He was like brain rot almost andit went massively viral, man.

(25:55):
But it's, it's marketing. Marketing is nuts.
And like, you know, being that we're talking about this
transition from early 2000s to now, I think that I should put
throw this in there like, especially when it comes to like
labels and, you know, making money in bands back then, like
one of the big things that I always, you know, will bring
streaming into the mix. Like I always was against

(26:17):
artists promoting back then, it was Napster or Limewire, but
there was this thing that happened and I remember very
clearly we were like as we were on Mainstage Warp tour one year
and like getting ready to play. There's other bands on other
stage and you could hear what's happening, but you're standing
there side stage because in 3 minutes, as soon as they're
done, you go on and you hear bands say on the microphone in

(26:41):
front of thousands of people, hey, we don't think you should
have to pay for music. Go go to Limewire and just down
right, just download our stuff. Now I want to say the positive
of this is not what people thinkit is because a lot of people
would think like, Oh yeah, free art, you know, blah, blah, blah.
No, the positive is you just rallied like 5000 people to

(27:04):
think that, you know, you've, you made them think that you
were cool and they're automatically now going to go
buy a shirt or something. But it's really like a, a mind
trick, you know, because nobody really thinks it should be free
because now every artist is crying about it.
But back then it was like, do itbecause if I jump on the wagon
of let's do this, let's make this free, I'm going to get a

(27:26):
bunch of people to rush in real quick.
But then that doesn't last. It's not sustainable.
So what happens is the next timeyou go to make a record, the
labels like your album didn't sell, so we're not going to pay
for this one. And then you're like, oh, labels
are evil because they want all the money.
And you create this really weirdcycle.
And that was a thing that happened all across the board.

(27:48):
So everything got really confused.
And then you saw, you know, people jump into that whole
mindset of, you know, what you just referenced like in the 1st
15 seconds, if the listeners nothooked, forget about it.
And songs became more of that asopposed to let's create a moment
that somebody could sink into for the rest of their life.
Let's like now just get something that's going to hook

(28:10):
somebody real quick. Because that .007 cents that I'm
going to get off of that stream is all that really matters.
Because that's what we, that's what we fight for.
I want to remind you that the economics of that today are
every stream is pretty much only.007 cents.
Isn't it crazy? The push, pull between like, the
depth of a song and like, the longevity of it.

(28:32):
You don't know who Tim Robinson is.
The comedian, of course. Yeah.
He's awesome. Awesome.
Mega fan. Mega fan.
So with him, it's like some of the stuff is just so weird and
absurdist and you're like, what?But then you see it for like the
third time and it's the funniestthing ever.
And the 30th time it's even funnier.
And then you see like Adam Sandler and the first time you
laugh. And the third time it's like,
yeah, it's kind of juvenile, right?

(28:54):
And like I, I relate this to brand new.
Like some of the brand new, likenewer stuff is like so weird and
like, huh. And then it's like I listen to
the lyrics and like, I really listen to them.
And it's like, this is beautiful.
This is art. Like this song will never get
old. Whereas if I listen to like, no
offense to Fall Out Boy, Fall Out Boy or something, it's like,
oh, it's so catchy. And then it's like, I'm done.

(29:15):
Do you have any thoughts on that, Like, the depth of a song
or like how lyrics go into the depth of a song and like, really
writing for, like, the love of it and not just like to make
something catchy and addicting, Yeah.
I think that's a really, you know, big box you just opened in
terms of like art is here to serve everybody for a different

(29:35):
purpose, right, For a different like somebody has some people
have the capacity at all times to listen to something really
depthful. Some people don't have the
capacity to do that, so they need something to like.
I've always believed that my purpose in all of this and how
I've always push forward in my music is to connect with someone
and be some type of a light in adark time.

(29:57):
That's why all of my stuff always has that theme to it.
It's tough, but you're going to get through it and that's what
it means to me. So it's like sometimes that
doesn't resonate with people whowant to be like, yo, I'm looking
to go out tonight and hit the club.
It's not going to, it's just notgoing to hit there.
So it's a really hard thing to define what either of those

(30:20):
things, either of those things mean.
I think Fall Out Boy was great for a lot of people in the sense
that, you know, it helped them find a part of themselves that
mainstream that wasn't as mainstream as a who was a prop
group back then, you know, like a Rihanna or something.
And that allowed them to, you know, not have to be, you know,

(30:42):
maybe I'm trying to think of another like male pop group so I
could compare them a little better because Rihanna slap,
she's awesome. I was just I was just listening.
She's she's so good. But like the Frey or something
like that, Like the Frey would had huge hits at the same time
as Fall Out Boy did, but it was two different things.
You know, the Frey maybe had more introspective, like in
depth in their lyrics, but was apop like dude band that was like

(31:08):
very like ecology. Whereas Fall Out Boy would
appeal to a similar person but be a little bit more edgy and
allow them to be like, you know,you don't have to be like sad
while listening to it. So it's like, yeah, yeah, I
always look at that. There's a purpose for all of it.
As long as it's done with the intention to serve someone in

(31:28):
that way, I tend to lose while Isee things that are
intentionally crafted to, you know, not for the service of
someone else, but to be like a how can I just get the most out
of it? Which is where sort of we are
right now. Like with the creation of all
the AI bands that are coming outand like just how that's
affecting songwriting, music, all of it in general.

(31:52):
It's like, I don't think anybodyreally realizes what's about to
happen. And it's terrifying, you know?
Well, I feel like. The pendulum just swings,
though, like the more the AI music there is, like, the more
that your stuff is going to be even more valuable because it'll
be that much different, you know?
But a? Value that's unquantifiable in
like terms of like it's going tobe like a monetary.

(32:12):
Sense like a. Monetary sense and that's going
to be that's not going to simplyjust not like you could have
care, but it's not going to allow me to continue to do it.
Like I'm going to be like, all right, well, I'm going to be a
truck driver or something. Because for the past 30 years,
I've only been perfecting one skill and that skill has been
connecting with people and trying to make something that

(32:36):
can be a part of their soul whenin now that I'm kind of
replaceable in a different way. It's like, all right, So what
else can I do? Because even though it's more
valuable in terms of a human made it, but it's not
necessarily monetarily value valuable, which doesn't really
allow me to continue the pursuit.
It's funny you. Say like your lyrics are often

(32:57):
about like, it sucks, but it's going to get better.
I feel like that's like my wholeethos as well.
Like when I go to church and like I teach Sunday school, like
that's kind of, I always get back to that.
Like sometimes it sucks, always it gets better, right?
Yeah, it sucks. Sometimes it gets better when I
talk about business, like my whole ethos to business is like
business is freaking hard, but it's awesome and it will work

(33:21):
out like it's worth it. It's worth being hard.
I think one of your most underrated songs is The Sand on
20. Wow, I love that song.
That's awesome. It's like #6 I think, right,
It's something because. It's like.
It's like at the end of it, you're just like talking about,
like, you're like, you're coming.
What? What are the lyrics?
Like? You're coming back like that's.

(33:41):
One of those like, I love that you say.
Yeah, yeah. That's.
It I forgot exactly how it went,but that's one of those that no
one has ever said that before. You're the first person that
maybe has ever said that. Yeah.
Yeah. That was like an underdog song
for sure. Is there a?
Story behind that song I'm trying to.
Recall how it goes. Because a lot of times,
unfortunately, you know, you putall this work into something and

(34:02):
it's like, well, you can't really work it into a set
because it's not one of the popular songs.
So you never play it and you never listen to it again.
All right, I want to. Pause here just for a second to
tell you why I've used Beehive for two years and I just
actually sent my 100th newsletter edition.
I love Beehive and you see emails different from other

(34:23):
platforms because social media platforms own your audience.
In fact, YouTube just banned me for a week because they didn't
like one of my videos even though it was perfectly
compliant. If Instagram changes their
algorithm, your reach tanks. Same with Tiktok, Facebook, and
anything else you're building onrented land.
But with Beehive, I own my list.I own my audience.
I'm not at the mercy of some nameless, faceless algorithm.

(34:45):
Every time I hit send, they justget my emails.
And Beehive makes this simple. Growth tools, monetization and a
free website and I can't get enough of their analytics and
the data I get from Beehive. This is data that I can actually
use and share with potential sponsors.
It's everything you need in one platform.
The smartest creators out there are the ones that own their own
audience. So go to beehive.com/chris to

(35:08):
get 30% off your first three months.
That's BEHII v.com/chris and start building something you
actually own. I probably have a. 1000 songs
that are like that, but yeah, it's always being down, always
being beat down, you know, but like, still looking up, like a
reference, looking at like Orion, like the stars, like, you
know, it's like you're constantly reaching for that.

(35:28):
But I'm buried in all of this. But then the.
Outro it never stopped me before.
I'll never hide again. I'm standing right at the door.
I'm going to fight my way back. Like I listen to that as I'm
like mowing the lawn, acting like my whole family just died,
Like my life is great, like objectively.
But I'm like, yeah, I'm going tomake it like everything's fine.
It just makes me feel something,you know?

(35:49):
That's good. That's what it's about.
That's awesome. I I'm so happy right now that
you brought that up. That's that's awesome.
It really is cuz that's what it is.
It's just. The album, I don't know if
that's like one of your more popular or less popular ones,
but it's just full of bangers, man.
There's no filler in 20 that was.
Our like just 20 year anniversary album.
We just took a bunch of B sides and put them on that and then as

(36:11):
well as, you know, made a few new ones.
But yeah, we like had our collection of songs that never
got released and we were like, well, might as well throw throw
it on this. And it's like it was really fun
to make. It was it was awesome to go down
memory lane and what not did it do?
Well, like compared to other albums in that time frame, some
of. The songs did because do well
now is like we sold a lot of vinyl, which is great and I

(36:34):
guess that's one of the metrics that you could use right now.
But as album as a whole, it's like really you look as an
artist, you look to get on a playlist like that's the the
Mecca, you have to get on a playlist.
But they don't put the whole album on.
They put one song on. So it's like a couple of the
songs stream really well. It's hard to say if the album
did well because it's not tracked in a similar in a

(36:56):
similar way. Our last album that like did
well would be like from 2013 when people still bought full
albums. So it was like that one charted
on like Billboard Top 200, but like that was because people
bought albums. So like it's like, how can we
roll this out to make as many streams as possible so that the

(37:17):
day that it comes out, you've immersed this number that will
all get counted towards album sales.
So that's why you see a bunch ofif you're noticing bands putting
out singles, singles, singles and then in whole album comes
out, it's like in effort to makethat album chart well, because
it's like, I don't know the exact number, but it's a lot of

(37:38):
streams equate to one like sale.This is just a.
Side note, but we'll be listening to you guys and ever
so sweet where you say the line I don't want you to love me
anymore. What song is that?
Or is that baby blue? That's baby blue.
That's the one. Yeah.
The get up kids think, yeah, OK.Was that the line?
That's the line. Yeah, that's the line.

(37:59):
From the get up kids. I didn't realize that, yeah.
That's the line that's. So funny.
So every time that comes on, I pause it and I tell my kids I'm
like, guys, you know, I love emo.
Emo is emo. It's usually like, I don't love
you, you don't love me. This this line takes emo to the
next level. I don't want you tell me.
I just give my kids a preamble. They just roll their eyes.

(38:20):
That's funny. Oh man, that's funny.
I didn't realize that I was going to ask you like, what was
the line? But I didn't know that was, I
didn't know you had any like oldbeef with them.
It's not like. Yes, we've, we've squashed the
beef. There's no more.
There's no more beef. But like, yeah, that's well, I
appreciate that. I appreciate.
That's a funny story. I like it, Yeah.
Do you ever listen to Spanish love songs?

(38:42):
Yes. Yes, I have.
Yeah, I really. Like their album, I forget what
the name of it is, but like 100%of their lyrics are so negative.
Like it's the opposite of your vibe, right?
It's like my parents got divorced, they lost their house
like every song. And like, I love it, but like I
don't like, do you think like I just feel like that becomes a

(39:04):
self fulfilling prophecy or confirmation bias.
You sing about these terrible things and like your life just
gets more terrible because that's all you see, That's all
you noticed. Did you, did you ever experience
that like singing about sad stuff or like, and just having
an A realization of like, maybe I should be more optimistic
because this is just making me more sad.
Well, I've. Always been very optimistic.

(39:24):
I'm like, people get annoyed andthink that I'm like joking and
sarcastic half the time because I'm like, Nah, it's not bad,
everything's fine. And they're like, why are you
like, this is not a time to be joking.
And I'm like, I'm being serious.Like I've always been very
optimistic. So when it comes to like I, I
have got lost in the sauce before, though, like sometimes

(39:44):
making an album where I'll be trying to get make it allow the
flow to happen and allow it to come out and burying yourself in
this. I went a little bit crazy during
the creation of of one of them. And it's like, you know, you're
trying to connect with this story that you're that you're
putting out there and you're really trying to be as like in

(40:06):
depth as possible and almost like living it in a way.
And it makes you, you can get lost in it.
And especially if you're an artist that.
If you're someone who let's say like very openly has a stance,
right, you not only that's part of your marketing, that's part
of your everything that you haveto be.

(40:27):
You have to attach a belief to your art and your business, and
you have to bring that everywhere with you, regardless
of if behind closed doors I'm talking to you and you let
something slip. Yeah, Yeah.
You publicly have to be what youput out there because we're

(40:49):
attaching that level of authenticity to what we think an
artist is, and that makes us fall in love with them more.
If they believe in the same thing that we believe in, then
we're walking together, holding this flag.
I have seen a lot of people get lost in that.
This is a. Dumb example of that.
It's like Guy Fietti. It's like, do you think he ever
wakes up? And he's like, I don't want to
put gel in my hair today. I don't want to bleach my hair

(41:11):
anymore. I hate that I'm.
I hate my life, I don't think. I don't think Chicken Guy ever
says that. OK.
I think he's pumped all the time.
Example or like my cup of gourmets, like I don't really
want to wear eyeliner today. Like I know this is my shtick,
but I've changed like I've changed as a person and like,
how do you do that when that's your whole brand, you know?

(41:31):
Yeah. And I think like the big people,
like the big, big ones, like if you get to that level and you
realize, wait, there's 50,000 people in this stadium right now
singing my songs, like, I'll putit on, I'll do it, Yeah.
I'll do it yeah, cuz it's like. That energy is you can't come

(41:52):
close to that with with anythinglike I mean, I do it like to a
smaller scale. Let's talk about this.
I wanted to ask you about this. So keep going with that.
It's a magic. That is undefinable.
And that's like, you know, I'll reference like your purpose in
doing it or what my reason, you know, like that connection with
people like that is something that is just you see fading more

(42:15):
and more with the current landscape of where things are
going. And that's probably one of the
things I'm most frustrated with one and most scared of is losing
that because we are devaluing what that is.
But anyway, that feeling of saying like, I don't know if I
feel like doing this. I, I can't really.
But then as soon as you step on stage and there's 1000 people

(42:39):
there that are so excited, they know every.
Word. They know every.
Word and they are like you feel their energy.
It's like you're floating. You know, it's a feeling that
you can't really it's hard to toeven to define, but like I can't
imagine it to the level of like,like you're saying like a my
Cam, like dude, when you get on stage and you're in a, you know,

(43:00):
Citizens Bank park in front of 45,000 people, that feeling of
like, Oh my God, like I doubt that that ever you why would you
shut that off? Does that ever?
Get old like on day 150 of the Tour, no.
The thing that gets touring is monotonous and sad and lonely,

(43:22):
you know, with people, but it's very, very lonely.
That's what gets hard. Those that's how we're on stage,
though. That never gets old unless
you're like throwing every show away, like you're getting
absolutely wasted and, you know,not remembering what's happening
then, then sure, if you're not present, it can definitely get
old because, you know, and we'veall had like I've had spells

(43:43):
where it's like, you know, I'm really depressed and, you know,
for a, a string of shows. And it's like, you know, you hit
that lull and it's if you lose yourself in it on this sad dark
artist sky, like, you know, if you if you wear that over you
and that's how you, you know, that's where you are existing.
Yeah. It can get very, very dull.

(44:06):
Usually if you're present, that hour will always be like the
most magical time. So yeah, that's great.
The rest of it gets kind of can get kind of rough for sure.
Yeah. And that's why people turn to
substance. And that's what I was.
Gonna ask are they turning to substances to replicate that on
stage feeling when they're off stage or just cuz they're sad

(44:28):
and lonely and tired? All of the.
Above and there's no security inthis business.
There's no like, I guess you're just an independent contractor
with a contract that's always running shorter every single
day. So like your contract's about to
expire every single time you getoff stage.
So tomorrow you could say something or where the climate

(44:52):
we're in right now, someone elsecould say something that you did
or you didn't do or just accuse you of thinking or looking or
offending or whatever. And you lose everything that
you've built. So many people are so scared of
that right now that you just sitby yourself.
You're like, I'm not going to put myself in any danger.

(45:12):
I'm going to sit by myself and just have a bunch of drinks.
And then the next thing you know, I'll wake up tomorrow
feeling hungover and do it again.
Or I mean, there's a whole lot of different, a whole lot of
different reasons. I don't think a lot of it is
trying to replicate the feeling on stage because it's you can't
replicate that. But I think it's coping with the

(45:33):
real fears that are going on. And that's a thing like the
mental health of, you know, people in that position is like,
you know, something that like a lot, not a ton of people really
talk about because you're livingyour dream.
So it's always like, be gratefulfor what you have.
But at the end of the day, you don't realize, like, dude, yeah,
it's a I'm doing it, but it's not like what you think.

(45:56):
It's not like we're not all Taylor Swift level right now.
Like I can't just say, well, I'mnever going to work again and be
OK. Like I don't have any other
skills when it comes to, you know, I can't go apply for a a
job somewhere with a automatic pension and four O 1K and the
amount of money that I'm going to need to make to support my
family. Like I have to.

(46:17):
I can't do that. I didn't go to college.
I'm not like, you know, that's not my position in life right
now. So it's like, yeah, there's a
lot of things that come with that, a lot of what you're.
Describing is entrepreneurship. You're starting a business,
you're failing. You're failing publicly, you're
growing. It's depressing, it's exciting.
You're an entrepreneur. Like as pure as they get, just

(46:38):
in a different niche, right? Yep.
Do you see yourself as such? Absolutely.
Yeah, I've always done like I dabble in a bit of of
everything. I've always taken a little bit
of that entrepreneurial spirit with me everywhere.
So it's like I have my hand in alot of different things as far
as business goes, but the band and learning business through

(47:00):
this vessel really fine-tuned that because you're not just
paying attention to, you know, what you want or what's going to
work for your direct customer because your customer exists
everywhere and is every different type of person and is
like, you know, you're moving with societal trends without
even realizing. It's like a very your focus on
all of that for sure. So I've always attached myself

(47:24):
to that. I've always identified with the
entrepreneurial mindset and it'sbeen like a, you know, huge help
for sure. I just now made a connection as
you were talking about like being a creator as well.
Like every time I think like, should I publish this?
Should I do this? Like if I would like it, then
they would like it because my audience is a representation of
me. And I'm thinking of you as like
a 19 year old. You're looking out at 1019 year

(47:46):
olds that probably like mostly white kids that are 19, right?
And now you're, you know, 30-40 something looking out as you
play. And it's like you're seeing a
bunch of people like you, you know, And if I'm still
publishing, like if I'm still talking about business ideas and
podcasting when I'm 60, there's going to be a bunch of 60 year
olds listening to me. You know what is like if you

(48:08):
play in front of 1000 people, $50 tickets, you've got an
opener and another band. What are the unit economics of
that look like? Let's say it's sold out.
Show 1000 people $50 tickets. It's going.
To be a little different becauseevery venue is going to be, you
know, you can have 1000 cap room, 2 of them across the
street and you're going to get adifferent outcome at that.

(48:29):
So like let's say average, like if there's a $50 ticket, I mean,
you're going to have obviously the room rental, the staffing,
all that stuff. What it's going to, what's going
to be your Guaranteed Rate for showing up, which might be for
1000 cap room, you know, maybe 5to $8000.
And then you're potentially, potentially, it's like I said,
it's all different, maybe maybe less than that, but that's going

(48:51):
to be like your package rate potentially.
Let's just for easy math, let's just say 8, right?
So out of that you've got everybody that works for you.
You've got the rest of the package, meaning your support.
And then you've got you got to factor in merch sales on that.
So if you're doing like 2 to $5 a head, you know, you
potentially got like another walking out the door with

(49:13):
another, you know, 2 to $5000 ontop of that.
But you're also paying merch rates, heavy merch rates to
venues. They're like very, very
expensive a lot of times. So you you got to pay the.
Venues for merch stuff? Yeah, there's merch.
Rates that that every venue takes.
So it's like some of them are a lot more strict where they'll
have somebody watching every sale so interesting and tallying

(49:36):
and tallying it like a few bucks.
Per shirt or something? Yeah, it's.
Usually like 10 to 15% on soft goods.
I had no idea. Yeah, that, that.
Ends up being a lot. Sometimes it's 20.
It really depends. It's all different.
If it's a venue sells, it's going to be more expensive as
well. So if you go to a venue and you
see someone who works at the venue selling the merch, they're
probably making more. They're they're charging more

(49:58):
for what they're going to be able to take from that.
It's really tough. Some nights you will walk out of
there having like a check back that's like very miserable to
cut back because sometimes, likeI said, it can range from 10 to
20%. That feels like if you're doing
like hundreds, it's whatever. It's like, you know, it's, it's

(50:19):
fine. But if you're doing thousands,
obviously it adds up quickly. And then the guarantee, like I
said, we'll, let's say that 8000you've, you owe $1000 to each
support. So now you have 6000 out of that
6000, you have everybody workingon your staff that is on the
touring party. Then if you have a bus that's an

(50:40):
extra, you know, $1500 a day if you have, if you're getting
hotels, basically going to end up being the same, just spread
through hotel rooms. So it adds up really quickly is
my point here. So at the end of it, there's a
lot of different things that come out of it.
You might walk with like, you know, maybe 3000 from that show,
maybe less, the whole band. The whole band.

(51:00):
Yeah. And then you split four or five
ways. Right.
But you're doing like a lot of shows, so if you're doing like
40 shows on the run, then it looks a little bit better.
Plus there's going to be some nights where it's like you got
to average it all out. Really, it's, it's harder to
tour now than it was because, you know, things are so much
more expensive if you want to make a high quality shirt,

(51:22):
people now more than ever care about what they're putting on
their skin, what's on their body.
You can't just get like a Hanes shirt that's going to be like,
you know, you have great, great margins on that.
But now you're looking at like out of that money that you made
from the merch sales, let's say it was, you know, 5 after, you

(51:43):
know, you what, what you paid out to the venue and what not,
you now owe for the merch company to have made it.
So it's like you have to but those costs as well.
So it's really like it's kind oftough to have like a this is
what it specifically is gonna look like because every single
night is different in that respect.

(52:04):
But an average thousand cap room, if you do that simple
like, okay, 8000 out of that, you maybe have another 5000 in
merch. What you owe all these things on
that. So you're end up walking
potentially, let's call it with 5000 after you've paid back the
merch that you've paid everything and then you've paid
your crew and all of that. And now you can start stacking

(52:24):
that up and scaling it through awhole tour.
So call. It 1000 bucks per band member.
Yeah, call it. Something like that at that
level, yeah. Yeah, at.
That level at that. Level yeah that, you know,
drastically can inflate if the shows sell out a lot of like you
get a standard guarantee and then after that you have like
what is like a a walk out bonus.So pretty much if you like, you

(52:47):
know, packing the room out, you're going to get back end on
the show as well. Like you're going to hit the
split point and where you'll have like a split with the with
the venue and be able to make a little bit more on that.
But you know, you got to be doing well to to make that
happen. And as you scale up and bigger
rooms, guarantees get higher andhigher.
Do you split everything? Equally with your bandmates for

(53:08):
us. Right now it is a very unique
scenario in the sense that like in back in the day when we were
all touring, that's how we worked touring.
We worked in that way. But now being that everybody is
like doing their own things is like not everybody can tour.
So it's like we have hired people that get paid no matter
what. So whether you're successful or
not, they're getting what they signed on for.

(53:31):
So it's a lot of like if you arehiring this person for this job,
if they're feeling it on guitar or feeling it on whatever,
they're getting what they are contracted for.
So it's like it's a little bit different in the sense of how
it's how the breakdown works out.
But traditionally, like, you know, when we were I guess in
that first like phase of like taking off, it was like, yeah,

(53:53):
if we're we walk away from a tour with, you know, whatever,
80,000 or 100,000, like we're going to split that or whatever
may have been at that point. And there are times like where
it's like, trust me, I know the numbers that I got I gave out
are very conservative. But there are times you can do
really, really well and where you far exceed all of that stuff
where you, instead of thinking, you know, you're not doing 2 to

(54:15):
$5 a head, you're doing $10 a head on merch, you're doing like
numbers that are far exceeding. But it's like that stuff is like
as hard to predict as the weather, how people are going to
react. And it's an interesting thing to
try and dive into. But do you get sick?
Of playing the same songs, Nah. Really, I don't get sick.
No, I don't get sick of playing the same song.

(54:35):
I think like if people are excited and having a good time,
that's really like what matters.Like if that date night out is
helping them create a stronger bond or like like, hey, that's
me doing my part. Are you an?
Introvert, I would say. So yeah.
How does that play into it? Is it weird, like because it's

(54:57):
kind of an extroverted thing to have to do, or do you just kind
of go into a different zone whenyou're on stage?
Yeah, it's a different. Mechanism, I think because
you're not like having a one-on-one conversation, trying
to carry it with your charm. You're trying to like it's a
different when you walk on stage, you're like one of the
coolest people in the room by default.
So it doesn't it doesn't matter.I don't know, like I think like

(55:18):
I've dealt with being I was a introvert heavily for a long
time and now I'm like, I don't know where I fall because now I
do like, you know, TV stuff as well as like it.
It's all easier for me to like exist.
But yeah, I think at at points for sure.
I'm very introverted. Yeah, so AM.
I I can fake it though but when I fake it it makes me so

(55:39):
exhausted. It's tiring, It is, it is.
I know that feeling is hard to explain to.
Are you working? In on any on any cool business
stuff right now or any business ideas you want to jam on Well
one. Thing that I think business
ideas. Look, First off, let me just say
like I did a little bit of a dive here into your past
episodes. I'm like, dude, there's some
really sick business ideas that are out there.

(56:02):
Like I said, like I, you know, when we first talked, I send
your stuff to my kids all the time because I'm like, you could
do this. Especially when it was like a
couple, like I forget what it was.
It was the shaved ice version ofshaved ice or whatever.
I'm like, you could do this thissummer and crush it.
And it was like, you know, all sorts of stuff, especially new.
Jersey like yeah. Oh.
Yeah, sure. Come on now.
Yeah. Yeah.

(56:23):
That's the, that's the way to doit.
I think like what I've been really trying to hone in on is
what is going to be able to exist that is somewhat
sustainable outside of, because I know that like I'm probably
part of like the, the majority of people here, but I do see a
little bit of a doom and gloom when it comes to AI taking

(56:45):
everybody's positions. And I'm like, what can I think
of? What can I do?
What do I already do that can somewhat exist in that world Now
what can I do or what can I start or what can I be involved
in? That's always going to be a
necessity that is not going to be overtaken.
So like, you know, we're talkingright now about potentially

(57:06):
doing a starting a, it was like a high end sound electrician
type company for like specialty type of, you know, running
really specialized sound for people's like backyards, pools,
all that type of stuff. It's a little bit more exclusive
like a high end type thing, but that is 1 area that like I know

(57:28):
that nobody's going to be able to.
We're very far off from a robot being able to come in and do
installs on stuff like that. So that's one of the things.
As far as another one that I really love.
Is this something I've been doing for a long time now.
My grandfather cleaned parking lots, right?
He cleaned parking lots for years.
That's what he did when he retired and he did it all

(57:49):
throughout like the back end of his life.
And when he passed away in 2020,like he would tell all these
crazy stories. So me and my few family members
were like, well, he's got all these parking lots as a way to
stay connected, you know, with his legacy or whatever.
Let's just continue doing them. Like we'll divvy them up and
we'll, I'll do this, this parking lot on this day.

(58:10):
You do that parking lot, you do,you know, whatever.
So anyway, twice a week I go outand clean parking lots at like
4:00 AM. So this morning left the house
4:30 in the morning, went and cleaned the parking lot and I'm
like, this is that perfect little niche that I was thinking
about because what a what a property manager is willing to
pay for you to go and pick up cigarette butts.
You could do it in an hour. Each parking lot you stack them

(58:32):
up. It's like, well, that is a
business that is something that is kind of interesting and
sustainable because it is. They're always going to need
that. You're always going to need to
have, you know, some type of. That way, no, it's.
Definitely not. And right now, like not a lot of
people are willing to do that. And it's something that I do to
keep me one, like I said, connected with my grandfather.

(58:54):
And as I'm doing it, I'm like, not only does it do that for me,
it scratches that itch, but it also keeps me extremely humble
because when you're sitting there picking up cigarette butts
and people are driving by, you like throwing one out the car
and like looking at you with like that only that look, it's
like a a kid who's doing something bad and they know
they're doing something bad, butlike you still have to go clean

(59:16):
it up, whatever. It's like.
That's why people aren't willingto do it.
But at the end of the day, this is something that like I talk to
my kids about this all the time,starting this as a job.
Like, OK, you do 1 parking lot. Every time you go there, say
it's like you're getting $200 for that, that parking lot.
You do 10 of them in a week as aas a teenager.

(59:38):
Like, yeah, you're doing all right.
That adds up. And that's like not really
intense work. You could do it at 4:00 AM, you
could be done by 9:00 AM. And then you can go to your
other job throughout the podcast.
Exactly. And that's like one of those
things that like, I love that because it's like I was at one
point doing that, then I would come home, teach a stock market

(01:00:01):
class on like basic techniques and whatnot.
And when it comes to technical analysis, I'm like obsessed.
I'm a nerd for like, oh dude, there's so.
Much we got to talk about for all that.
Then I would go into the studio and I would record and produce
bands all day and then come backand do you know my family time
at night. And it was like that was my
structure for a long time. Was like wake up before the sun,

(01:00:25):
get out there, do parking lot, come back, teach class, then go
to the studio and RIP apart songs all day and rinse and
repeat. And then throw other things in
there as well. But like there's a lot of things
that you can do to like put it all together because as a
musician, like you're saying, like entrepreneur, you have to
be. I've always had to do a ton of
things, yes. But that's like that's one of

(01:00:46):
those businesses that I think isis super cool because it's easy.
It's actually kind of fun. You'll find a lot of weird
stuff. You got a lot of great stories
to tell. Like, oh man, I found out a
whole toilet in the in a parkinglot today just sitting there.
Had to pick it up. 1, it's a funny story, but two, it's like,
you know, it's really not that not that hard.

(01:01:07):
And it's something that can add up if you're looking to just
fill some fill some space. Yeah.
And you? Don't use any like equipment for
it. You're just doing it by hand, no
use. A picker like one of those, like
claw things and like a trash picker in a bucket, maybe
sometimes a shovel. That's it.
I'm just picturing. A a a boomer rolling up and
throwing a cigarette out at you,just looking at you and you're

(01:01:28):
like, you should have seen me atthe Skate and surf festival.
OK, 3000 screaming teenager. We went viral on Reddit.
Do you know who you're talking to?
Right. Now, and that was yesterday, you
know, that's it. You know, the things I enjoy
about it is like sometimes I'll be doing it and it's like, you
never know. Like when you're a person who

(01:01:49):
like who is hungry and just wants to do things and wants to
learn things and wants to excel in your own way, nothing can
stop you. I mean, I've always tried to
preach that to people. If you have a void, you have to
fill it, figure out how to fill it.
And when you figure out how to fill it, you're going to be
super proud. It's a cool thing I like to say
like. You can't be broke and prideful
like if you're broke and humble like I can help you.

(01:02:10):
I can give you ideas whatever. If if I had to go sell like
porta potties door to door to feed my family, I would
absolutely do it. You know, you can't be prideful
or egotistical about it. I love that business like
parking lot. Like I'm thinking of all the
ways you could grow that, like you could scrape all the
landlords, you could do creativecold outreach to them.
And the more that like AI takes off, the more like quote UN

(01:02:33):
quote easy AI businesses are going to take off and the less
that like entrepreneurial peoplewill care about like a parking
lot business. Like you have even less
competition in the future, right?
Right. I think there's a lot there that
that can be done with it. Now I have a question for you in
regards to all these AI businesses that are starting up

(01:02:53):
and how like how you could use it for so, so many different
things to start so many different angles and what not.
What happens when it's so saturated that like, is there a
point that that happens where the saturation just becomes too
dense Saturation. With what specifically?
Absolutely. Everything like in every like,
because right now they're we're seeing like a boom in the sense

(01:03:15):
of like, oh, anythings possible.Anything and everything is
possible at any given time. Do we reach a point where it's
like critical mass? Like it's just like there's so
much automated self automated AIthat it's creating other AIS
that it's creating other things and creating other businesses.
Now you're not just competing with a person creating AI,
you're creating with AIS that are creating AIS that are the

(01:03:36):
AIS are. Talking to each other, They're
emailing each other. They're yeah.
Like at what point is like I said, I nerd out about all this
stuff, but if you look at, you know, just unemployment and
whatnot, and obviously we misseda, the past couple marks.
But like, if you look at the steady rise in it and like how
it's how it's going and the trend that's happening, like

(01:03:56):
it's been since 2022 till now, the slow rise, that is not
something that we we've traditionally seen and at least
this small incrementally. Usually there's a big thing that
happens, right? And everything like falls and
then, you know, we recover from it.
But, and that's almost. Safer because it's obvious and
you see it coming. This is like a frog in boiling
water, right? Yes, that's.

(01:04:16):
Exactly what it is, it's and you're trying to like say, oh,
well, that's OK, because we're going to have these other jobs,
but and we're going to recover. But we've always had a point to
recover to at this point, if youlook at it.
And while we're doing all these things, minimizing a human need,
we're not going to be able to recover to something because
there's not going to be some waiting for somebody to go to,

(01:04:38):
to make money. You know, how does that work?
Like, how does that play into it?
But I mean, obviously we're getting, I'm getting off the
rails here a little bit. I'm just syncing.
Into my. Own yeah, I feel like.
It's an analogy would be I, I love to reference the messy
middle, right? So in the 90s and before and
2010 and after, I guess I shouldsay in the 90s and before you

(01:05:02):
were either like a wedding singer or you were **NSYNC,
right? And there's like nothing else.
And then from 1999 on the, this Internet thing happened and now
we have a spectrum of musicians,right?
That we, that's what we started talking about.
And that's the messy middle. And that's like there's a whole
book called the Messy middle. That's where you don't want to

(01:05:22):
be because it's hard and like, what are you?
Where do you stand? You know, like you're almost
better off as a wedding singer because you can get paid 3 grand
to go play a wedding, you know, or 1000 bucks and you don't have
this band or whatever. But on the other end of it, like
you could be Taylor Swift and a billionaire.
But the messy middle is just where the grind is.
I see that here. Like I'm, I really fear for the

(01:05:42):
American middle class and getting pushed out more and more
and more. I think home ownership should be
a lot more common than it is. It used to be common.
It's becoming increasingly less common.
And I look at AI the same way. I don't want to be in the messy
middle. I want a business that is either
all AI, like implementing AI agents into other businesses, or
like just everything AI, or justtouching grass as a service,

(01:06:05):
like like building podcast studios, like doing like
cleaning parking lots, right? But like anywhere in the middle,
like being an accountant that's about to be replaced by AI, that
scares the crap out of me. Yeah, messy middle is messy.
It's called messy for a reason. What do you think about that?
I'm with. You there?
I think that spot, That's exactly how I feel too.

(01:06:29):
It's very scary, especially for someone who is in the position
that I'm in, where you see this business fluctuate like it's so
quick, how things are changing. It's like remarkably quick.
And it's already, you're in a business that you can age out of
extremely quickly anyway. So it's entertainment.
Like you have to be able to to continue to reinvent things.

(01:06:51):
But the messy middle as as you call it, like dude, it's very,
very messy. It's very hard.
And it's like it's not somethingthat is easy to sustain.
So I do love the idea of either being all in on one end or all
in on the other because that's where, you know, that's where
you're going to be able to at least have a little bit of Peace
of Mind. Right.

(01:07:11):
Yeah. Yeah, so.
I'm. Building out a podcast studio in
my attic right now, and so if you ever start that business, I
might need your help. Yeah.
Setting it up. Yeah, I know you're.
Touring Is the early November going to tour again?
We. Probably will, yeah.
We have some things that we willannounce very soon.
We'll at least do a do another run.

(01:07:31):
We'll see what happens. But yeah, I'm, I'm touring next
week. I start.
So I have a couple weeks of grinding, grinding hard on that
one. And then, yeah.
And then home doing that, doing HSN, doing all that stuff.
And then maybe in the winter we'll have another little run.

(01:07:52):
Oh, that's. Cool, man.
You're like me. You got a million different
things going on. Yes.
HSN, parking lots, stocks, studio touring.
Man, I identify with that. Sick.
Yeah. Is there anything you'd?
Like to promote that we can leave in like anything we could
point to in the show notes or whatever.
Yeah, like I have. An album coming out in on

(01:08:14):
Halloween, I'm very excited about that.
Yeah. That's going to be like
Ascenders or? Is that real ascenders?
As a Ascenders album. Halloween, I'm excited about it.
It's like I don't know how many more full length albums I'm
going to do in my life. Like I think like obviously the
industry is changing. I don't know if there's demand
for it or if it even even makes sense from a financial
standpoint to do that kind of investment.

(01:08:36):
So this, you know, very well could be the last like body of
work like that and just from where where I'm at So like I'm
excited about it and comes out on Halloween, which I think is
also very cool. Yeah, it's going to be a a fun,
a fun time. So that's one thing that I'll
say. Check that out if you can.
If you can, yeah, is the best. Way to support that to buy the

(01:08:57):
vinyl, yeah. What's the highest and best use?
That would definitely be it. Buying the vinyl would probably
be the best. The vinyl or T-shirt or coming
to a show, either one of those things will be the best.
I mean, or play it on Spotify. It will probably never reach me,
but at least it'll be a cool, you know, a cool thing.
I'll tell you what. I'll buy the vinyl and I'm going

(01:09:18):
to put, I'll put it right there.I'll advertise it for free.
How about that? Thanks.
I'll pay you a residual every time one comes.
In, well, anything else you wantto promote that's.
Really it also, you know, like, I mean, just I think like my
message in life has always been keep getting give it everything.

(01:09:38):
You know, whatever you do, give it everything.
It's like, yeah, I would promotemore stuff that I am doing, but
I just want to promote that ideaof just going for it.
If you're if you have something that you want to do or you're
unhappy with where you are, justgo for it.
Take the steps and give it everything that you can.
And if it doesn't work out, that's fine.
Just keep giving it everything. And it's like that has been

(01:10:01):
something that I've had on the walls of my studios that I've
owned, you know, and people havetaken it with them through their
life. As simple as it is.
It's like just remind yourself like we live in a world where
you can wake up and anything canhappen now more than ever, not
just for an artist or whatever. Like I wake up with that.
I could mate say something or dosomething today that can change
my life in the most positive way.

(01:10:22):
And because that's what it is. Like I could write a song that
could positively impact generations of my lineage.
But it's like we live in a worldright now where those type of
possibilities are out there for everybody.
And it's like just give it everything.
Do it. If you, if you want to do it, do
it. That's what I'd like to promote.
I love it. I mean, it's back to the messy

(01:10:43):
middle. Like don't be in the messy
middle. No half measures, right?
Just go all out, yeah? Do it, ace.
You're the man Thank you. Hey guys, if you're still
listening to this, it's probablybecause you haven't had a chance
to take your Airpods out. You're still mowing the lawn,
you're still driving, what have you.
If you're still here with me, I would really, really love and

(01:11:03):
appreciate a five star review onSpotify, Apple, or wherever you
get your podcast. It would mean a lot.
If you want to go the extra mile, share this episode with a
friend that might have an interest in starting a business.
It would mean a ton. Hope you have the best day of
your life today.

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The Truth About the Music Industry’s Money Game⏐Ep. #235

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