May 14, 2025 • 50 mins
Send a Text Message to The Kosher Terroir
Nestled in the heart of Israel's Sharon coastal plain, Vitkin Winery has been quietly revolutionizing Israeli winemaking for over two decades. Founded in 2001, Vitkin has championed Mediterranean grape varieties that thrive in Israel's unique terroir.
Chief winemaker Assaf Paz welcomes us into his world with remarkable candor, sharing the extraordinary challenges of creating wine during wartime. Following October 7th, 2023, the entire Israeli wine industry faced unprecedented difficulties – from labor shortages as workers joined military reserves to the physical dangers of tending vineyards within rocket range of hostile borders. Despite these obstacles, the 2024 vintage yielded what Paz describes as some of Vitkin's most outstanding white and rosé wines ever, albeit at dramatically reduced yields.
The conversation takes us deep into Paz's winemaking philosophy, shaped by his unusual journey from pastry chef to internationally trained winemaker. He articulates a vision of wine as "the meeting point of science and art" and "a marriage between God and man," where the winemaker must honor what nature provides while applying technical expertise to reveal a vineyard's full potential. Paz's evolution toward creating more elegant, approachable wines without sacrificing intensity or aging potential offers fascinating insights for wine lovers interested in the craft behind their glass.
Perhaps most compelling is Vitkin's role as what the late wine critic Daniel Rogov called "Mediterranean prophets" – pioneers who recognized early that Israel's true wine identity lies not in imitating Bordeaux or Burgundy, but in embracing varieties perfectly adapted to its Mediterranean climate. This approach has been vindicated particularly in challenging hot vintages like 2010 and 2012, when Mediterranean varieties thrived while international grapes struggled.
Pour yourself a glass of something interesting and join this journey into Israeli winemaking that goes far beyond the bottle to explore questions of identity, resilience, and authentic expression of place.
For More Information
Assaf Paz Winemaker
Vitkin Winery
Address: Turtle Bridge
Alexander stream , Kfar Vitkin
waze: ״Vitkin Winery״
Tel: +972-9-8663505
Fax: +972-98664179
WhatsApp: +972-54-4866355
Email: info@vitkin-winery.co.il
www.TheKosherTerroir.com
+972-58-731-1567
+1212-999-4444
TheKosherTerroir@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S. Simon Jacob (00:09):
Welcome to The Kosher Terroir.
I'm Simon Jacob, your host forthis episode from Jerusalem.
Before we get started, I askthat, wherever you are, please
take a moment and pray for thesafety of our soldiers and the
safe return of all of ourhostages.
Today we are journeying to theheart of Israel's Sharon coastal
(00:33):
plain to visit Vitkin Winery, atrailblazer in the Israeli
Anything but Cabernet orChardonnay, Vitkin has
championed grapes like Carignan,Grenache, and Petit Syrah,
crafting wines that trulyexpress the unique terroir of
the region.
Renaissance.
Founded in 2001, Vitkin Wineryhas been at the forefront of
introducing Mediterraneanvarietals to the Israeli wine
scene, with a philosophy dubbedABC.
(01:08):
In this episode, we sit downwith chief winemaker Assaf Paz,
whose journey from pastry chefto oenologist has been nothing
short of inspiring.
Trained in Bordeaux andseasoned in wineries across
California and Australia, Assafbrings a global perspective to
Wittgen's winemaking process.
(01:29):
We delve into the challengesand triumphs of recent vintages,
discuss how the ongoingregional tensions have impacted
viticulture and explore thelatest innovations at Wittgen's
Visitor Center.
Whether you're a seasonedinophile or new to the world of
kosher wines, this conversationoffers a deep dive into the
(01:52):
passion and resilience thatdefine Vitkin Winery.
So pour yourself a glass ofdelicious kosher wine and join
us as we explore the storiesbehind one of Israel's most
dynamic wineries.
Thank you very much forinviting me to Vitkin.
Assaf Paz (02:09):
So I just call Yossi to bring us some samples.
S. Simon Jacob (02:12):
Good we'll do it .
Can you walk us through thelatest vintage?
What stood out for you thisyear in the vineyard and in the
cellar?
What's special about this year?
Assaf Paz (02:23):
So the 2024.
And then the cellar what'sspecial about this year?
So the 2024.
So we're talking about thefirst harvest after October 7th
and practically during the warand I think this is the base of
the perspective to the wholeharvest.
(02:44):
The vines obviously, obviouslycontinued to grow, nature didn't
stop, the winter was relativelygood and gave us enough
precipitation and cool weather.
But the fact that we were inthis terrible situation affected
(03:06):
the vines even in things thatwe can't imagine.
And when I thought about it,especially after the harvest, I
realized that everything counts.
You know, everything counts.
First of all, it was a tinyharvest, very, very low yield.
I I don't remember this, thatdrop of of yields.
(03:31):
All over the country there werevineyards that it was not so
much like 10 to 20, even 25.
That starts to be significant.
And we had even one vineyardthat had a drop of 70% of the
crop.
(03:52):
And there you start to have aproblem you have all your needs
in juice, in wine, in grapes,and you don't have them, or you
have very, very little, ofcourse.
Or is amazing, all thequalities of all the wires is
spectacular because everythingis so concentrated.
(04:12):
But we need the.
We need also the, the quality,the volume, exactly so, and when
I thought about it, we said itwas weather.
But if you don't have the laborthat you need and it was a big
problem of labor because a lotof people are in the army
(04:34):
soldiers, reserves, many peoplewe stopped working with certain
sectors.
It's okay, it doesn't affectyou.
No, it's okay.
It doesn't affect you.
No, it's okay.
Okay, we stopped working withcertain sectors because we had a
blockage on the Sumerian Judeaand so, in general, you have
(05:04):
less supply of workers, so it'salso affected.
And during the time of pruningof the vineyards, it was in the
winter of the end of 2023, thebeginning of 2024, you know,
highest point of tension backthen there were many, many
(05:28):
vineyards that was complicatedor unsafe to go into and some
vineyards weren't pruned andweren't treated because it was
just in front of Hezbollah inLebanon and people, for good
reason, didn't want to go there.
Some vineyards were closed bythe army.
(05:49):
So, and everybody knows thatthe pruning quality, but also
the pruning timing, affectsquality but eventually volume of
grapes.
So eventually there are many,many things that we didn't even
(06:15):
thought about that affected thequality of the harvest.
So I call it the harvest ofOctober 7th or the harvest of
the war?
S. Simon Jacob (06:26):
Yeah, because the actual, the 2023 harvest
actually come in before October7th for the most part.
Assaf Paz (06:38):
More than 90% of the grapes were already in the
wineries we lost the staff to beable to make the wine.
We were very stressed afterOctober 7 because I didn't know
if we would be able to put thewines in barrels.
We were left.
We were in a very goodsituation because 23 was
(07:04):
relatively early harvest and wefinished picking all of the
grapes before Rosh Hashanah andwe were left with a single small
vat to press of great grapesthat was supposed to be pressed
just after Simchat Torah.
And we were in a good situationbecause there were many
(07:27):
wineries that had still fruitoutside, quality wineries
especially.
I remember talking with a lotof them and they were in real
crisis.
So we were relatively in a goodposition, but again, relatively
.
It's not very good when you'reafraid that you bring stuff to
(07:50):
press the tank and you don'tknow if missiles will hit you or
whether you'll be able to putthe wines into barrels in the
right timing.
100%, oh, potato salad.
Anyway, we so, if you pass that, the harvest was amazing in
(08:23):
quality, disappointing inquantity and volume and we still
had a lot of issues with stuff.
We normally outside of theharvest off harvest.
We have only two workers in thewine in the cellar.
One of them was recruited.
S. Simon Jacob (08:44):
So you were like 50% In Miloim.
Assaf Paz (08:47):
Yeah, 50% of your stuff is in Miloim, but I can
say today that 2024 gave us afew of the most outstanding
white and rosé wines that weever made.
The red are still in barrelsbut they look very promising.
S. Simon Jacob (09:06):
So of the varietals, were there any
surprises?
Yeah, negative or positive.
Assaf Paz (09:13):
There was.
There weren't any bad surprises, you know, except the problem
of the lack of volume.
But we have one specific, veryexciting, delicious white wine
(09:38):
that we did for the first time.
As far as I know, it's thefirst time that anybody did it
in Israel.
We're going to expose it, tolaunch it on May 18th, when
we're going to expose the newharvest of the Shoreshim Reds,
our ancestry wine.
(09:58):
It's called Shoreshim Zayin,the seventh Shoreshim from the
harvest of 2018.
Spectacular wine.
We made this wine only inexceptional vintages.
This is the seventh edition ofthis wine, even though we're
going to celebrate this harvestour 26th harvest.
S. Simon Jacob (10:24):
But this is only the seventh of that and it's
from 2018?
Yeah, 2018.
Assaf Paz (10:30):
Wow, pardon me, our 25th harvest Started in 2001.
S. Simon Jacob (10:37):
Looking back at the 23, 24 vintages, what do you
think will define them inWittgen's wine story?
Assaf Paz (10:45):
From the bad side of the story, it was that those
were a harvest of a lot ofstress and anxiety and anger and
sadness.
You know we were mourningpeople that we love and you, I
(11:07):
went to visit people that losttheir loved ones and in like a
big volume and a lot of visits,a lot of people that we knew and
gone, it touched all of us.
We made few wines as a memorialwines.
You know we special labels forpeople that are are not or no
(11:32):
longer with us and and we don'tknow those people you know it
was.
One of them was a girl that waskilled in the nova Festival and
Her sister approached us andshe was a big fan of our winery
and she especially loved thewhite Israeli journey.
So we we donated I don'tremember how many cases of white
(11:56):
Israel journey with the labelwith her picture on it, and
another guy for near, fromnearby a Village that we did the
same for him.
But from the other side, maybe alittle bit more positive side,
we saw the strength of thepeople of Israel.
(12:18):
We saw the strength of thewhole good civilians of this
country, how we can worktogether, how we can help each
other and you know, all thosebig, horrible events give you
perspective.
Sometimes we are, you know,sucked into our own small fights
(12:40):
and you know disagreements andthose big, mega, very sad,
traumatic events shows you thatsometimes you need to
concentrate in the positive sideof life and choose your battles
, and that was the meaning ofthis harvest for us.
So I think, all in all,everybody worked.
(13:03):
We always have good people inthe winery, but the dedication
of the workers that we had thisyear was unbelievable.
S. Simon Jacob (13:14):
Are there any vineyard blocks or specific
wines from recent vintages thatare especially meaningful or
symbolic because of what's going?
Assaf Paz (13:22):
on.
We had many vineyards that wecouldn't visit during the heavy
you know big tension andactivities with Lebanon.
Yeah, especially in the north.
S. Simon Jacob (13:34):
I saw I was up north.
I saw what was going on?
It was, it was unbelievable,crazy.
Assaf Paz (13:39):
Yeah, there were vineyards that I called the
farmer and I called him.
I want to come on Mondayvisiting you, visit the vineyard
.
I called the farmer and Icalled him.
I want to come on Mondayvisiting you.
I said, asaf, don't come, don'tcome, it's crazy, I don't want
you to get hurt.
S. Simon Jacob (13:51):
Everything is on fire.
Assaf Paz (13:52):
Yeah, everything is on fire and you know we have
rockets flying over our heads.
There were some vineyards werein strategic places near bases,
or you know that the Hezbollahtried to target and so I got
(14:14):
into a situation that I don'ttell them and I just take my car
and go off, I don't tell thefarmers and I don't tell my wife
especially, that I'm going tosee the vineyards, because I
have to see the vineyards.
But everybody is very anxiousabout this and I went up and
there were more than a couple oftimes that shit happens, things
(14:36):
happen around me.
I know.
You know there was a couple oftimes that drones exploded a few
hundred meters from me, thatdrones exploded a few hundred
meters from me, explosive likesuicide drones or missiles.
All the time airplanes flyingaround you.
You know fighter jets and youknow what's the most scary thing
(15:00):
when you're less than 100meters from an Iron Dome battery
and sometimes you don't evenrealize it's there, and suddenly
a missile is shooting to targeta threat that's coming from
somewhere and you're notrealizing what is it?
You see that something hashappened and then you realize
(15:22):
it's just an Iron Dome missilethat went to actually protect
you.
But it's as much as scary, thenoise and the yeah.
S. Simon Jacob (15:32):
It's crazy, yeah , yeah.
Assaf Paz (15:34):
So it was very challenging and I'm the type of
farmer who's very, you know,hands-on in the vineyards.
I don't let my farmers do anydecision, any major decision,
without me visiting the vineyardand checking and see that it's
okay.
And it was like sometimes aself-control to try to trust
(15:56):
them in the places that I cantrust them and I know that they
are doing a good job, and to bevery fast and thorough in the
cases that they have to go intothe vineyards, especially to
taste grace before harvestingthings that nobody can replace
me right, and to see thateverything is going on, you know
(16:19):
, taking care of business, andsee that things are going on
according to your specific plans, because every winemaker has
his own approach and we haveonly one harvest a year and you
need that harvest to be perfect.
S. Simon Jacob (16:32):
That leads me to a question that I often ask
winemakers that's amazing cheese.
I don't know what that is.
Ah, it's the smoked one.
It's smoked, yeah, it's smoked,it's incredible cheese.
Assaf Paz (16:42):
This is Kitchota from Jakobs from Faroe.
This is Smoky Gouda from BetYitzchak, the village on the
other side.
So we're very local also inproducts ok, very cool.
S. Simon Jacob (16:54):
Where is wine made?
In the vineyard or in thewinery?
Assaf Paz (17:05):
I can tell you things that for me, wine is a big
symbol of marriage, marriagebetween few things.
First of all, it's the meetingpoint of science and art.
Ok, you said it in manypodcasts that you that you did
(17:26):
that it's a form of art, it's anart craft and it is.
But without the science it willbe very hard to to repeat your
success.
So this is the meeting pointbetween those two fields that
are completely different, andit's a marriage between God and
(17:46):
man, because God creates thegrapes and the weather and the
condition and the terroir, andman is taking it from there and
can make many things out of itfrom the results.
He can sometimes modify thepotential of the terroir if he's
working harder, of what he got,and the quality of the wine.
(18:09):
Of course, we always say it's100% grapes.
We want to see it like that andthis is like the rule.
It's not like beer and it's notlike gin or vermouth, where you
can spice things according toyour desire.
You know you can be.
You can craft a beer with withcoffee beans.
(18:31):
You can craft a beer with theherbs, you whatever you want,
flowers and fruits.
In the case of wine, this is abig taboo.
You cannot modify the wine fromthe exterior.
You can.
You base only on the quality ofthe grapes and the process.
The only aromatics that you canadd is the barrel aging, the
(18:52):
barrel maturing, so it'sbasically 100% grapes, and if
you have good grapes it'samazing, and if you have bad
grapes, so I don't know what youcan do with it.
But you can destroy 100% of thequality or diminish it if you do
(19:12):
things not correctly.
Take, for example, the harvest.
You can have amazing grapes.
You miss the harvest point oryou pick it much too early.
You don't have the potentialthat you you can get.
It depends on the grapes, butyou can lose or you can augment
the quality of the grapes in thewinery according to the process
(19:35):
process that you're making.
It's like in cooking you canmake an amazing steak.
You just need the right meatright, the right piece of meat
that comes from the right sourceand the right butcher and the
right aging and so on.
But if you don't use the rightpan or the right heat or the
(19:59):
right seasoning, you can totallyruin it yeah, you can ruin it.
S. Simon Jacob (20:02):
So it's both Among the new releases and
upcoming projects.
What can wine lovers lookforward to?
Assaf Paz (20:10):
I don't know in general, but I can imagine that
we will see more drinkable wines.
I would love to see they'remore approachable.
I would love to see moreapproachable wines, more juicy
wines, overwhelming wines.
Okay, I always say that in thefirst few years of Witkin we
(20:35):
send wines to competition and inthe last 15 years we haven't,
because we don't aim forcompetition.
We don't aim for wine judges.
Even though I'm aninternational wine judge in
competitions in Germany and inIsrael and in other places.
(20:57):
I know how to craft a doublegold winner wine.
It's not a big issue for me,but I don't want to make those
wines because I think thateventually, the wines I want to
make would be delicious for thecrowds and not for the wine
competitions.
It's not always the same.
Sometimes it is, but sometimesa wine that gains double gold.
(21:24):
It will take it many, many yearsto be ready to drink and I want
my wines to be most of the, mywines to be more drinkable, more
approachable and more delicious, angel and then enjoyable, and
I think that most of the of theproducers are going towards this
, realizing that in our climateit's better to drink more white
(21:49):
wines and rosé and in the redwine section you need them
lighter and more approachable.
Okay, so we need to this thingthat lighter doesn't mean we
need to distinguish, thatlighter doesn't mean diluted in
any way, yeah, or to losequality.
Take, for example, our PinotNoir or our Grenache Noir.
(22:12):
They are lighter in color, theyare lighter in their body, but
they are so amazing and full offlavors and aromas, so you don't
compromise.
And aromas, so you don'tcompromise.
You shouldn't compromise theintensity and the concentration
of the aromas if the wines arelighter.
(22:33):
That's what I think will happenand I hope that what Witkin
started 25 years ago to maketypical local Mediterranean
wines and made a smallrevolution by it, I hope and I
think it will continue andpeople will make more and more
(22:54):
wines with local style and lessand less wines with
international style.
S. Simon Jacob (23:01):
Are there new experimental varietals that
you're dealing with that youdidn't deal with before?
Assaf Paz (23:09):
Yeah, all the time.
I cannot tell, of course,because it's the R&D.
One of them is the one thatwe're going to launch.
It's a new wine, it's a newapproach.
It's a new wine, it's a newapproach and it's something that
(23:36):
we always try to find a balancein this area between always
looking for something excitingand new and keeping the
tradition that we created, andfocusing and making the wines
that we are already makingbetter and better, and keep the
style of each and one of them.
So if you loved our old vine,karin Jan, five years ago, you
(24:00):
will still love it today.
Hopefully, you will see anincrease in the quality, but not
a big, drastic change in thestyle.
S. Simon Jacob (24:08):
Has your winemaking philosophy changed
over the past few years?
Assaf Paz (24:22):
It's certainly changed from my first years but
you know, as I'm getting moreexperience, the change is
smaller with every year.
In the beginning, as a youngwinemaker, I wanted to impress.
I wanted, you know, bigger, thebigger the better, the blacker
the better, more intense winesthat will impress people, higher
(24:47):
maturity and so on.
Sometimes it's coming from ayounger point of view or less
security in what you're doing,or less experience.
You see the grapes of a certainvineyard, let's say Cabernet
Sauvignon, maturing, you'retasting it, you feel that they
(25:08):
are ripe and they are ready.
But since you have littleexperience, you say maybe we
should wait another week.
I'm not sure.
If we take it now, maybe itwon't be enough.
Let's wait another week andthen we'll be sure that
everything is okay and they arefully ripe.
Let's wait another week andthen we'll be sure that
everything is okay and they arefully ripe.
(25:31):
And in that week you can getover the top in terms of sugar,
in terms of alcohol, in terms offruit profile.
You know the flavors can gofrom very fresh red and black
fruit to more jammy, overripe,porty style, and we don't want
this.
And sometimes it's only myexperience and my
(25:56):
self-confidence that improvesthe wine when you see the same
grapes, the same area, the samematurity, but sometimes more
precise maturity.
So of course I change my styleand I'm evolving.
If you take our first vintagesof the Old Vine Carignan and Old
(26:17):
Vine Petit Syrah, they are muchbigger, higher in alcohol and
they're still delicious, buttoday they're a little bit more
elegant and more harmonious.
It didn't change dramaticallythe wine, but I think they're
(26:38):
much, much better.
S. Simon Jacob (26:40):
Crafting wines to be more approachable.
Do you lose anything on thetail end?
Do you lose anything on theirageability or how long they last
?
How long they.
Assaf Paz (26:59):
That's an amazing question because it's a question
that I ask myself every time.
I'm doing that, every time I'mgoing and tilting a little bit
to more elegant style that youcan enjoy earlier during the
bottle aging.
So my big challenge is exactlythat how you make the wine more
(27:26):
elegant, how you make a PetitSyrah that in the past or a
Carignan that in the past reallyneeded three to four years
bottle aging after we took itout of the barrels and only then
release it, and how you make itshorten to maybe two years or
(27:47):
one and a half years in thebottle and already after one and
a half years it could beapproachable.
How you make this and notdiluate your wine and not taking
off concentration and body andintensity.
And this is my big challenge.
(28:08):
Through the years I think it'sin the last 10 years maybe,
especially since we moved to thebig winery I think we managed
to do that in a very successfulway through better management of
the vineyards, more experiencethat we gained with every even
(28:31):
every parcel of vineyard andmuch better technology that we
have today in the winery Bettertanks, better cooling system
that we can extract as much aswe did, but the quality of
extraction and the quality ofthe tannins and the body of the
(28:55):
wine is finer, is more elegant.
You have the same quantity ofextraction but more ready to
drink style.
Also, we did it through the useof bigger volume of barrels.
These are larger barrels.
S. Simon Jacob (29:18):
Larger barrels.
What's larger 500?
Assaf Paz (29:21):
Yeah, Okay, 500 liter , mainly 500 liter and some 300
liters.
In the past we used 225 to 350.
Yeah, and today I'm reallyhappy about the choice of 500
liters.
Choice of 500 liters when thebarrel is new.
(29:47):
You don't feel any change inthe intensity of the oak in the
first couple of years that thebarrel gives, but you feel much
more intense fruit over thereand in the long term you gain,
you cover, less the fruit, soyou feel it more in the finished
wines and the wines tend to bemore elegant, more approachable,
(30:08):
or, as the French people loveto say, you respect of the fruit
, respect of the terroir, andthat's how I like to think about
it.
So those are the means that Ihave my own experience the
better management of thevineyards I think the age of the
(30:29):
vines also play a big role init and the technology that we
have in the vineyard.
So it's always the same triothat supports the high quality
of wine production, trio thatsupports the high quality of
wine production.
I always look at the wineproduction as something that's
based on three legs, and mysister, who's an architect,
(30:51):
always told me three legs isvery stable.
You know, you put the camera onthree legs and so on and
tripods, tripod, tripod.
So it's a tripod.
Yeah, you have the quality ofthe grapes that we discussed.
You have the technology thatyou have in the winery that
helps you keep this quality,because you can have the best
(31:12):
steak in the world, the bestpiece of meat, but if you don't
have the good means to grill it,you can lose the quality and
the know-how you know, the humanresource, your own experience,
your own skills and talent.
So this is the tripod of thewine quality for me.
S. Simon Jacob (31:40):
I believe that that's what defines terroir as
well.
It's what you start out with asfar as the grapes are concerned
, coming inbound.
It's the procedures that youfollow in the winery too, like
Solera.
The Solera is really a terroir,but it's because they bake the
barrels in the sun.
Assaf Paz (32:01):
But this is a terroir that's in the winery, not in
the vineyard.
S. Simon Jacob (32:05):
Yeah, no, but it's part of the.
It's in the bottle.
Yeah, yeah, it's a terroir.
That's in the bottle.
Assaf Paz (32:11):
I agree with you in 100%.
I always said that terroir.
People tend to look at terroirand this is the definition of
terroir the geology of the soil,the topography, the height, the
distance from the sea, theclimate, of course, and so on
(32:34):
and nobody looks at the skillsof the farmer.
For example, I worked in bigwineries.
When you can take grapes, grapesfrom a certain area, from
dozens different plots, and thenyou, you understand that you
have one farmer some of hisplots are in the best locations,
(32:55):
some are in the less qualitylocation, but all of his grapes
are amazing.
And you have another farmer whohas the same situation
regarding the location of hisplots Some of them are in the
best terroir, some of them arein the lesser quality, but all
his grapes are mediocre.
And you realize that, okay, theterroir can be amazing, but if
(33:17):
you don't treat the vineyardsand if you don't do whatever is
necessary to get the quality,you won't express it.
And the same in the wineryWhatever you do in the winery is
defining the good expression ofthe terroir or losing it.
S. Simon Jacob (33:40):
Just a couple questions left and then we're
gonna taste some wine, okay.
I'm very much looking forwardto tasting we're going to taste
few, few special exciting things.
Okay, yeah, so with vitkin isalways, within the Israeli wine
(34:01):
culture, been a very special,has a very special place in that
culture lighter focused on theMediterranean varietals rather
(34:23):
than heavier red varietals.
And how do you see that goingforward with Israel?
How do you see that goingforward with your place in
Israel?
Assaf Paz (34:52):
You know, I don't know, I don't remember the
source, but there is a phrase inHebrew that says that only on
myself.
I couldn't tell or expressExpress about everybody else but
not about yourself.
Yeah, describe everybody butnot myself.
And sometimes when other peopledescribe you, I'm citing it
because it's much easier for meto talk about myself from their
perspective.
And it's me, but of course it's.
Vitkin, bless his soul, was avery special man and one of the
(35:24):
most talented wine lovers ofIsrael.
He, he called us the, the, theCarinian or the Mediterranean
prophets.
He said you're prophets becauseyou, in a way you, you went on
the direction that youunderstood that it's the right
direction, even though all therest told you that it's nonsense
.
People laughed at you, peoplemisjudged you, underestimated
(35:49):
you, and you still went to thatdirection because you believe
that this is the truth.
And in the wine it's not easyto do because in the wine
business you have many storiesand the story is a very big,
important tool of you marketingthe wine and talking about the
wine and explaining the wine.
(36:10):
And sometimes we are captiveand we are losing ourselves in
the story and we let ourselvescarry on too much with the
stories and not looking at whatwe have in the glass, the liquid
itself, what it gives you, andnot the story.
And when I started to understandthat we should make carinian
(36:33):
and green ash and other localvarieties, mediterranean
varieties in a Mediterraneanstyle, varieties in a
Mediterranean style.
It was from both, from tastinga lot of samples and a lot of
wines from similar terroirs toIsrael that made very good wines
from those varieties, like,like Spain, especially Priorat,
(36:57):
which is much heavier style thanwhat we're making today, but at
least it showed me thepotential and, let's say, the
deliciousness and the amazingexpression of the wine.
And south of France, you know alot of places in
Languedoc-Roussillon and theCarignan of Fitou and other
places, and I tasted Carignansfrom Dry Creek in Sonoma,
(37:23):
california and even Australiavery rare over there and
Grenache especially and so itwas experience but also a lot of
gut feeling that it should work.
And we went, we jumped into theswimming pool, not knowing if
there is water inside, becauseit's nice to make a hobby, do
(37:48):
whatever you want, because theworst part, you lose some money.
S. Simon Jacob (37:54):
But you have to be able to sell it.
Assaf Paz (37:56):
Yeah, but if you establish a business and you
decide on a philosophy ofwinemaking which is completely,
you know, 90%, 90 degrees toanother direction from what
everybody else are doing andsucceeding of selling their
wines, so you're either verysmart or very stupid.
(38:16):
So, fortunately for us, itworked because we knew that
there is truth over there.
We knew that those varietiesfirst uh, first and foremost
will give a more delicious winethat are adapted to the terroir
and the cuisine and and the.
You know the temperament of thepeople, right, also the, the
(38:37):
character we are.
We are intensive people inIsrael.
We need something to cool usdown, not to make us more angry
and more tight, so we want winethat will make us relax.
That's what I thought.
But also, looking on theterroir, even the birds agreed.
I think there is a hawk in thistree.
(39:01):
That's the reason they'reyelling so all of them are
nervous, also knowing that thosevarieties are more adapted to
the heat, to the dryness of ourcountry.
And you know what?
We got the proof in twovintages, in 2010 and 2012.
(39:25):
I did, a couple of days ago, Idid, a vertical tasting of our
old wine, petit Syrah.
A group of big wineconnoisseurs that taste wines
from all over the world invitedme because they collected their
own collection of old wine PetitSyrah from 2006 to 2013,.
(39:45):
Some of them in Magnum version,and they wanted me to be the
narrator of this tasting.
And I brought another wine andit was amazing.
And I brought the Petit Zira2004, which is still alive,
delicious and has even a fewmore years to age, gracefully.
(40:07):
And what we saw?
That there were two vintages,2010 and 2012,.
That were extremely hot, maybethe hottest in this decade, and
I remember that many colleagueshad big problems with this
vintage especially, you know,cabernet Sauvignon, merlot and
so on.
(40:27):
and I said that my varieties,like Petit Sirène Carignan,
really thrived, they shined inthis vintage, in this tough
vintage, and it shows that theyare well adapted, they feel like
this is their home and they'reshowing beautiful results even
in the toughest vintages.
(40:48):
So what we did now in Vitkin isreally telling everybody
Cabernet Sauvignon, merlot,chardonnay, sauvignon Blanc or,
as I like to call them, theFantastic Four, because they are
fantastic.
They are giving amazing winesin most of the places, in most
(41:10):
of the countries, but for methey are a little bit boring.
Continue doing them.
They are good.
I don't say don't stop doingthem, but open up to new
varieties, to new techniques, tonew genres of wine and
experiment.
We are a country that havemaybe the longest history of
(41:32):
winemaking, but since we had thelongest prohibition period,
from the 7th century up to the19th century, we need to learn
how to walk again, and you'redoing that by experimenting all
over the place, in all of theterroirs, with all of the
varieties and not with onlyfantastic four have you tried
(41:54):
any of the new, new indigenous?
S. Simon Jacob (42:00):
they call them varieties like like bituni.
Have you tried bituni?
Assaf Paz (42:05):
I tried.
I think I tried the Marawi, thebituni.
We have a few other in ourexperimental vineyard here in
Vitkin from those group ofvarieties that are exciting.
I taste the grapes and theylook fantastic.
I think this is a big part ofIsrael wine making and wine
(42:30):
style future.
Absolutely, because this is thesource.
This is the source for many,many of the world's varieties,
but also this is our source andwe need to go back to the source
.
We need to find where they growbest.
I know that they have a lot ofvery good properties that we can
(42:51):
use in new vineyards, but weneed more time.
You know we are Israelis, we'rerushing everything.
Yeah, we're rushing everything.
Sometimes it's good.
You know we are Israelis, we'rerushing everything.
Yeah, we're rushing everything.
Sometimes it's good.
You know we build your countryand a culture and achievements
that other nations.
It took them 500 to 1,000 yearsto get where we are after 60 to
(43:15):
80 years, which is very goodand very impressive.
But sometimes there are thingsthat needs time.
I I think that it's exciting.
I think it's amazing thatpeople try those varieties and
we should try more.
The only critic that I have my,my own, my 50 cent about this
(43:38):
issue is that we do them fromthe first.
Trials were made from vineyardsthat are located near Hebron, in
the Palestinian authorities, invineyards that were.
I know this because theyoffered me the same grapes and I
told them pardon my French.
I told them, I told them wherecan I visit the vineyard?
(44:00):
And they said, oh, you cannotvisit it because it's very
unsecure.
It's Palestinian authorities.
I don't understand.
How can I make wine if I don'tvisit the vineyard?
Oh, they will send you samples.
How do I know how they grow thevineyards?
What's the yield per acre?
Maybe they give me grapes, butthe concentration could be
(44:21):
double if they do someactivities and treatments in the
vineyards to improve it.
So they said, oh, you don'tknow.
You hope for the best.
I said I don't know.
If I don't pardon my French, ifI don't piss in the vineyard, I
cannot make the wine from thisvineyard.
So the only critics that I haveis let's do this from the best
(44:44):
vineyard that we got.
It will take three more years,it will take 10 more years and I
think that I know that peopleplanted vineyards with those
varieties and I'm really excitedto taste those varieties from
the vineyards that were plantedto make wine, and not from the
vineyards that are meant to givetable grapes Right.
(45:07):
Exactly.
S. Simon Jacob (45:07):
I agree.
Assaf Paz (45:09):
So it's exciting.
We need more time.
S. Simon Jacob (45:13):
Any message you'd like to send out to the
international customers aboutsupporting Israel.
About supporting Israeli wines.
Assaf Paz (45:30):
I remember your phrase from one and a half years
ago when we sat here for thefirst time.
You and I think I went back tothat, and I think I went to
study winemaking in Bordeaux inFrance in 1999, for two reasons.
said that the most, the easiest,most enjoyable way to support
Israel in those days is to buyand open and enjoy a good
Israeli wine.
First, all I was reallypassionate about winemaking
(46:03):
because it really combined allmy love the love for Eretz,
Israel, the agriculture, thescience, the biology and
chemistry.
I like to feed people because Iwas a pastry chef, so I like to
be the Sar Ha Mashkim, not onlythe Sar HaOfim.
And another thing that I sawwhat's happening around the
(46:27):
world regarding Israel in the PRfield and also it was obvious
to see even 25 years ago, and Ithought that wine could be maybe
one of the best ambassadors forIsrael to make our point and
our claim and to show that weare here to stay, and when we
(46:50):
plant a vineyard, like ourancestors did, and when we're
making wine from the grapes ofEretz Israel, like they did in
the Bible, and wine is sosignificant in our culture and
our religion.
It's a statement and I thinkthat everybody that, of course,
from the Jewish people, but alsonon-Jewish that support our way
(47:13):
and believe in the right ofIsrael and the place of Israel
in the world should enjoyIsraeli wines.
Some of them are very expensive, but you can find them in all
price points.
S. Simon Jacob (47:31):
Yeah.
Assaf Paz (47:32):
Like everything is more expensive to make in Israel
.
Wines are also more expensivethan in the rest of the world,
but I think that they aredelicious and today you have a
very wide range of high quality,high end Israeli wines and you
(47:52):
can pick up whatever you likeand enjoy it and feel like
you're part of this beautifulworld of Israeli wine.
Thank, you.
S. Simon Jacob (48:04):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for being on theKosher Terroir, thank you for
inviting me again.
There's a saying I saw recently.
Somebody asked how much do youspend on a good bottle of
Israeli wine?
And the person responded atleast an hour.
Assaf Paz (48:25):
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
You know, sometimes people ofcourse the money is an issue and
sometimes people are lookingtoo much at the price there was
on the other day.
I don't deal with sales in thevisitor center, but every once
in a while I happen to stumbleon a client that hesitates and
(48:46):
needs some help and I approachthem and she told me you know, I
want to buy a friend a gift andmyself a gift.
I said amazing.
And she hesitated between a winethat costs 85 shekels and a
wine that cost 125 shekels.
And I told her, I said what'sthe deal?
(49:08):
I said I don't know if I canspend 125 shekels on a bottle.
I say, first of all, yourhesitation is on the 40 shekels
gap between those two Becauseyou want to buy a bottle of wine
.
Gap between those two becauseyou want to buy a bottle of wine
.
Secondly, I think one it's.
It's one of the cheapest waysto make you happy.
If 125 shekels can make youhappy for an hour or for a
(49:32):
evening or for a nice meal, it'snothing, yeah, it's, it's
really cheap%.
S. Simon Jacob (49:39):
I agree with you .
I agree with you.
Assaf Paz (49:41):
Wow, so thank you very much.
I'm excited to be on the secondtime on your amazing podcast.
I think it's, first of all, youdo it in a very fascinating way
that I always enjoy listeningto it and, secondly, I think
they are very important becauseyou're choosing the subject in a
(50:02):
very intelligent way and pleasekeep doing it Trying, thank you
.
S. Simon Jacob (50:16):
This is Simon Jacob, again your host of
today's episode of The KosherTerroir.
I have a personal request.
No matter where you are or Ifyou are new to The Kosher
Terroir, please check out ourmany past episodes to be
informed of our new episodes asthey are released.
If you're new to The KosherTerroir, please check out our
many past episodes.
Wherever you live, please takea moment to pray for our
soldiers' safety and the safeand rapid return of our hostages
.
Please subscribe via yourpodcast provider to be informed
(50:38):
of our new episodes as they arereleased.
Welcome to The Kosher Terroir.
I'm Simon Jacob, your host forthis episode from Jerusalem.
Before we get started, I askthat, wherever you are, please
take a moment and pray for thesafety of our soldiers and the
safe return of all of ourhostages.
Today we are journeying to theheart of Israel's Sharon coastal
(00:33):
plain to visit Vitkin Winery, atrailblazer in the Israeli
Anything but Cabernet orChardonnay, Vitkin has
championed grapes like Carignan,Grenache, and Petit Syrah,
crafting wines that trulyexpress the unique terroir of
the region.
Renaissance.
Founded in 2001, Vitkin Wineryhas been at the forefront of
introducing Mediterraneanvarietals to the Israeli wine
scene, with a philosophy dubbedABC.
(01:08):
In this episode, we sit downwith chief winemaker Assaf Paz,
whose journey from pastry chefto oenologist has been nothing
short of inspiring.
Trained in Bordeaux andseasoned in wineries across
California and Australia, Assafbrings a global perspective to
Wittgen's winemaking process.
(01:29):
We delve into the challengesand triumphs of recent vintages,
discuss how the ongoingregional tensions have impacted
viticulture and explore thelatest innovations at Wittgen's
Visitor Center.
Whether you're a seasonedinophile or new to the world of
kosher wines, this conversationoffers a deep dive into the
(01:52):
passion and resilience thatdefine Vitkin Winery.
So pour yourself a glass ofdelicious kosher wine and join
us as we explore the storiesbehind one of Israel's most
dynamic wineries.
Thank you very much forinviting me to Vitkin.
Assaf Paz (02:09):
So I just call Yossi to bring us some samples.
S. Simon Jacob (02:12):
Good we'll do it .
Can you walk us through thelatest vintage?
What stood out for you thisyear in the vineyard and in the
cellar?
What's special about this year?
Assaf Paz (02:23):
So the 2024.
And then the cellar what'sspecial about this year?
So the 2024.
So we're talking about thefirst harvest after October 7th
and practically during the warand I think this is the base of
the perspective to the wholeharvest.
(02:44):
The vines obviously, obviouslycontinued to grow, nature didn't
stop, the winter was relativelygood and gave us enough
precipitation and cool weather.
But the fact that we were inthis terrible situation affected
(03:06):
the vines even in things thatwe can't imagine.
And when I thought about it,especially after the harvest, I
realized that everything counts.
You know, everything counts.
First of all, it was a tinyharvest, very, very low yield.
I I don't remember this, thatdrop of of yields.
(03:31):
All over the country there werevineyards that it was not so
much like 10 to 20, even 25.
That starts to be significant.
And we had even one vineyardthat had a drop of 70% of the
crop.
(03:52):
And there you start to have aproblem you have all your needs
in juice, in wine, in grapes,and you don't have them, or you
have very, very little, ofcourse.
Or is amazing, all thequalities of all the wires is
spectacular because everythingis so concentrated.
(04:12):
But we need the.
We need also the, the quality,the volume, exactly so, and when
I thought about it, we said itwas weather.
But if you don't have the laborthat you need and it was a big
problem of labor because a lotof people are in the army
(04:34):
soldiers, reserves, many peoplewe stopped working with certain
sectors.
It's okay, it doesn't affectyou.
No, it's okay.
It doesn't affect you.
No, it's okay.
Okay, we stopped working withcertain sectors because we had a
blockage on the Sumerian Judeaand so, in general, you have
(05:04):
less supply of workers, so it'salso affected.
And during the time of pruningof the vineyards, it was in the
winter of the end of 2023, thebeginning of 2024, you know,
highest point of tension backthen there were many, many
(05:28):
vineyards that was complicatedor unsafe to go into and some
vineyards weren't pruned andweren't treated because it was
just in front of Hezbollah inLebanon and people, for good
reason, didn't want to go there.
Some vineyards were closed bythe army.
(05:49):
So, and everybody knows thatthe pruning quality, but also
the pruning timing, affectsquality but eventually volume of
grapes.
So eventually there are many,many things that we didn't even
(06:15):
thought about that affected thequality of the harvest.
So I call it the harvest ofOctober 7th or the harvest of
the war?
S. Simon Jacob (06:26):
Yeah, because the actual, the 2023 harvest
actually come in before October7th for the most part.
Assaf Paz (06:38):
More than 90% of the grapes were already in the
wineries we lost the staff to beable to make the wine.
We were very stressed afterOctober 7 because I didn't know
if we would be able to put thewines in barrels.
We were left.
We were in a very goodsituation because 23 was
(07:04):
relatively early harvest and wefinished picking all of the
grapes before Rosh Hashanah andwe were left with a single small
vat to press of great grapesthat was supposed to be pressed
just after Simchat Torah.
And we were in a good situationbecause there were many
(07:27):
wineries that had still fruitoutside, quality wineries
especially.
I remember talking with a lotof them and they were in real
crisis.
So we were relatively in a goodposition, but again, relatively
.
It's not very good when you'reafraid that you bring stuff to
(07:50):
press the tank and you don'tknow if missiles will hit you or
whether you'll be able to putthe wines into barrels in the
right timing.
100%, oh, potato salad.
Anyway, we so, if you pass that, the harvest was amazing in
(08:23):
quality, disappointing inquantity and volume and we still
had a lot of issues with stuff.
We normally outside of theharvest off harvest.
We have only two workers in thewine in the cellar.
One of them was recruited.
S. Simon Jacob (08:44):
So you were like 50% In Miloim.
Assaf Paz (08:47):
Yeah, 50% of your stuff is in Miloim, but I can
say today that 2024 gave us afew of the most outstanding
white and rosé wines that weever made.
The red are still in barrelsbut they look very promising.
S. Simon Jacob (09:06):
So of the varietals, were there any
surprises?
Yeah, negative or positive.
Assaf Paz (09:13):
There was.
There weren't any bad surprises, you know, except the problem
of the lack of volume.
But we have one specific, veryexciting, delicious white wine
(09:38):
that we did for the first time.
As far as I know, it's thefirst time that anybody did it
in Israel.
We're going to expose it, tolaunch it on May 18th, when
we're going to expose the newharvest of the Shoreshim Reds,
our ancestry wine.
(09:58):
It's called Shoreshim Zayin,the seventh Shoreshim from the
harvest of 2018.
Spectacular wine.
We made this wine only inexceptional vintages.
This is the seventh edition ofthis wine, even though we're
going to celebrate this harvestour 26th harvest.
S. Simon Jacob (10:24):
But this is only the seventh of that and it's
from 2018?
Yeah, 2018.
Assaf Paz (10:30):
Wow, pardon me, our 25th harvest Started in 2001.
S. Simon Jacob (10:37):
Looking back at the 23, 24 vintages, what do you
think will define them inWittgen's wine story?
Assaf Paz (10:45):
From the bad side of the story, it was that those
were a harvest of a lot ofstress and anxiety and anger and
sadness.
You know we were mourningpeople that we love and you, I
(11:07):
went to visit people that losttheir loved ones and in like a
big volume and a lot of visits,a lot of people that we knew and
gone, it touched all of us.
We made few wines as a memorialwines.
You know we special labels forpeople that are are not or no
(11:32):
longer with us and and we don'tknow those people you know it
was.
One of them was a girl that waskilled in the nova Festival and
Her sister approached us andshe was a big fan of our winery
and she especially loved thewhite Israeli journey.
So we we donated I don'tremember how many cases of white
(11:56):
Israel journey with the labelwith her picture on it, and
another guy for near, fromnearby a Village that we did the
same for him.
But from the other side, maybe alittle bit more positive side,
we saw the strength of thepeople of Israel.
(12:18):
We saw the strength of thewhole good civilians of this
country, how we can worktogether, how we can help each
other and you know, all thosebig, horrible events give you
perspective.
Sometimes we are, you know,sucked into our own small fights
(12:40):
and you know disagreements andthose big, mega, very sad,
traumatic events shows you thatsometimes you need to
concentrate in the positive sideof life and choose your battles
, and that was the meaning ofthis harvest for us.
So I think, all in all,everybody worked.
(13:03):
We always have good people inthe winery, but the dedication
of the workers that we had thisyear was unbelievable.
S. Simon Jacob (13:14):
Are there any vineyard blocks or specific
wines from recent vintages thatare especially meaningful or
symbolic because of what's going?
Assaf Paz (13:22):
on.
We had many vineyards that wecouldn't visit during the heavy
you know big tension andactivities with Lebanon.
Yeah, especially in the north.
S. Simon Jacob (13:34):
I saw I was up north.
I saw what was going on?
It was, it was unbelievable,crazy.
Assaf Paz (13:39):
Yeah, there were vineyards that I called the
farmer and I called him.
I want to come on Mondayvisiting you, visit the vineyard
.
I called the farmer and Icalled him.
I want to come on Mondayvisiting you.
I said, asaf, don't come, don'tcome, it's crazy, I don't want
you to get hurt.
S. Simon Jacob (13:51):
Everything is on fire.
Assaf Paz (13:52):
Yeah, everything is on fire and you know we have
rockets flying over our heads.
There were some vineyards werein strategic places near bases,
or you know that the Hezbollahtried to target and so I got
(14:14):
into a situation that I don'ttell them and I just take my car
and go off, I don't tell thefarmers and I don't tell my wife
especially, that I'm going tosee the vineyards, because I
have to see the vineyards.
But everybody is very anxiousabout this and I went up and
there were more than a couple oftimes that shit happens, things
(14:36):
happen around me.
I know.
You know there was a couple oftimes that drones exploded a few
hundred meters from me, thatdrones exploded a few hundred
meters from me, explosive likesuicide drones or missiles.
All the time airplanes flyingaround you.
You know fighter jets and youknow what's the most scary thing
(15:00):
when you're less than 100meters from an Iron Dome battery
and sometimes you don't evenrealize it's there, and suddenly
a missile is shooting to targeta threat that's coming from
somewhere and you're notrealizing what is it?
You see that something hashappened and then you realize
(15:22):
it's just an Iron Dome missilethat went to actually protect
you.
But it's as much as scary, thenoise and the yeah.
S. Simon Jacob (15:32):
It's crazy, yeah , yeah.
Assaf Paz (15:34):
So it was very challenging and I'm the type of
farmer who's very, you know,hands-on in the vineyards.
I don't let my farmers do anydecision, any major decision,
without me visiting the vineyardand checking and see that it's
okay.
And it was like sometimes aself-control to try to trust
(15:56):
them in the places that I cantrust them and I know that they
are doing a good job, and to bevery fast and thorough in the
cases that they have to go intothe vineyards, especially to
taste grace before harvestingthings that nobody can replace
me right, and to see thateverything is going on, you know
(16:19):
, taking care of business, andsee that things are going on
according to your specific plans, because every winemaker has
his own approach and we haveonly one harvest a year and you
need that harvest to be perfect.
S. Simon Jacob (16:32):
That leads me to a question that I often ask
winemakers that's amazing cheese.
I don't know what that is.
Ah, it's the smoked one.
It's smoked, yeah, it's smoked,it's incredible cheese.
Assaf Paz (16:42):
This is Kitchota from Jakobs from Faroe.
This is Smoky Gouda from BetYitzchak, the village on the
other side.
So we're very local also inproducts ok, very cool.
S. Simon Jacob (16:54):
Where is wine made?
In the vineyard or in thewinery?
Assaf Paz (17:05):
I can tell you things that for me, wine is a big
symbol of marriage, marriagebetween few things.
First of all, it's the meetingpoint of science and art.
Ok, you said it in manypodcasts that you that you did
(17:26):
that it's a form of art, it's anart craft and it is.
But without the science it willbe very hard to to repeat your
success.
So this is the meeting pointbetween those two fields that
are completely different, andit's a marriage between God and
(17:46):
man, because God creates thegrapes and the weather and the
condition and the terroir, andman is taking it from there and
can make many things out of itfrom the results.
He can sometimes modify thepotential of the terroir if he's
working harder, of what he got,and the quality of the wine.
(18:09):
Of course, we always say it's100% grapes.
We want to see it like that andthis is like the rule.
It's not like beer and it's notlike gin or vermouth, where you
can spice things according toyour desire.
You know you can be.
You can craft a beer with withcoffee beans.
(18:31):
You can craft a beer with theherbs, you whatever you want,
flowers and fruits.
In the case of wine, this is abig taboo.
You cannot modify the wine fromthe exterior.
You can.
You base only on the quality ofthe grapes and the process.
The only aromatics that you canadd is the barrel aging, the
(18:52):
barrel maturing, so it'sbasically 100% grapes, and if
you have good grapes it'samazing, and if you have bad
grapes, so I don't know what youcan do with it.
But you can destroy 100% of thequality or diminish it if you do
(19:12):
things not correctly.
Take, for example, the harvest.
You can have amazing grapes.
You miss the harvest point oryou pick it much too early.
You don't have the potentialthat you you can get.
It depends on the grapes, butyou can lose or you can augment
the quality of the grapes in thewinery according to the process
(19:35):
process that you're making.
It's like in cooking you canmake an amazing steak.
You just need the right meatright, the right piece of meat
that comes from the right sourceand the right butcher and the
right aging and so on.
But if you don't use the rightpan or the right heat or the
(19:59):
right seasoning, you can totallyruin it yeah, you can ruin it.
S. Simon Jacob (20:02):
So it's both Among the new releases and
upcoming projects.
What can wine lovers lookforward to?
Assaf Paz (20:10):
I don't know in general, but I can imagine that
we will see more drinkable wines.
I would love to see they'remore approachable.
I would love to see moreapproachable wines, more juicy
wines, overwhelming wines.
Okay, I always say that in thefirst few years of Witkin we
(20:35):
send wines to competition and inthe last 15 years we haven't,
because we don't aim forcompetition.
We don't aim for wine judges.
Even though I'm aninternational wine judge in
competitions in Germany and inIsrael and in other places.
(20:57):
I know how to craft a doublegold winner wine.
It's not a big issue for me,but I don't want to make those
wines because I think thateventually, the wines I want to
make would be delicious for thecrowds and not for the wine
competitions.
It's not always the same.
Sometimes it is, but sometimesa wine that gains double gold.
(21:24):
It will take it many, many yearsto be ready to drink and I want
my wines to be most of the, mywines to be more drinkable, more
approachable and more delicious, angel and then enjoyable, and
I think that most of the of theproducers are going towards this
, realizing that in our climateit's better to drink more white
(21:49):
wines and rosé and in the redwine section you need them
lighter and more approachable.
Okay, so we need to this thingthat lighter doesn't mean we
need to distinguish, thatlighter doesn't mean diluted in
any way, yeah, or to losequality.
Take, for example, our PinotNoir or our Grenache Noir.
(22:12):
They are lighter in color, theyare lighter in their body, but
they are so amazing and full offlavors and aromas, so you don't
compromise.
And aromas, so you don'tcompromise.
You shouldn't compromise theintensity and the concentration
of the aromas if the wines arelighter.
(22:33):
That's what I think will happenand I hope that what Witkin
started 25 years ago to maketypical local Mediterranean
wines and made a smallrevolution by it, I hope and I
think it will continue andpeople will make more and more
(22:54):
wines with local style and lessand less wines with
international style.
S. Simon Jacob (23:01):
Are there new experimental varietals that
you're dealing with that youdidn't deal with before?
Assaf Paz (23:09):
Yeah, all the time.
I cannot tell, of course,because it's the R&D.
One of them is the one thatwe're going to launch.
It's a new wine, it's a newapproach.
It's a new wine, it's a newapproach and it's something that
(23:36):
we always try to find a balancein this area between always
looking for something excitingand new and keeping the
tradition that we created, andfocusing and making the wines
that we are already makingbetter and better, and keep the
style of each and one of them.
So if you loved our old vine,karin Jan, five years ago, you
(24:00):
will still love it today.
Hopefully, you will see anincrease in the quality, but not
a big, drastic change in thestyle.
S. Simon Jacob (24:08):
Has your winemaking philosophy changed
over the past few years?
Assaf Paz (24:22):
It's certainly changed from my first years but
you know, as I'm getting moreexperience, the change is
smaller with every year.
In the beginning, as a youngwinemaker, I wanted to impress.
I wanted, you know, bigger, thebigger the better, the blacker
the better, more intense winesthat will impress people, higher
(24:47):
maturity and so on.
Sometimes it's coming from ayounger point of view or less
security in what you're doing,or less experience.
You see the grapes of a certainvineyard, let's say Cabernet
Sauvignon, maturing, you'retasting it, you feel that they
(25:08):
are ripe and they are ready.
But since you have littleexperience, you say maybe we
should wait another week.
I'm not sure.
If we take it now, maybe itwon't be enough.
Let's wait another week andthen we'll be sure that
everything is okay and they arefully ripe.
Let's wait another week andthen we'll be sure that
everything is okay and they arefully ripe.
(25:31):
And in that week you can getover the top in terms of sugar,
in terms of alcohol, in terms offruit profile.
You know the flavors can gofrom very fresh red and black
fruit to more jammy, overripe,porty style, and we don't want
this.
And sometimes it's only myexperience and my
(25:56):
self-confidence that improvesthe wine when you see the same
grapes, the same area, the samematurity, but sometimes more
precise maturity.
So of course I change my styleand I'm evolving.
If you take our first vintagesof the Old Vine Carignan and Old
(26:17):
Vine Petit Syrah, they are muchbigger, higher in alcohol and
they're still delicious, buttoday they're a little bit more
elegant and more harmonious.
It didn't change dramaticallythe wine, but I think they're
(26:38):
much, much better.
S. Simon Jacob (26:40):
Crafting wines to be more approachable.
Do you lose anything on thetail end?
Do you lose anything on theirageability or how long they last
?
How long they.
Assaf Paz (26:59):
That's an amazing question because it's a question
that I ask myself every time.
I'm doing that, every time I'mgoing and tilting a little bit
to more elegant style that youcan enjoy earlier during the
bottle aging.
So my big challenge is exactlythat how you make the wine more
(27:26):
elegant, how you make a PetitSyrah that in the past or a
Carignan that in the past reallyneeded three to four years
bottle aging after we took itout of the barrels and only then
release it, and how you make itshorten to maybe two years or
(27:47):
one and a half years in thebottle and already after one and
a half years it could beapproachable.
How you make this and notdiluate your wine and not taking
off concentration and body andintensity.
And this is my big challenge.
(28:08):
Through the years I think it'sin the last 10 years maybe,
especially since we moved to thebig winery I think we managed
to do that in a very successfulway through better management of
the vineyards, more experiencethat we gained with every even
(28:31):
every parcel of vineyard andmuch better technology that we
have today in the winery Bettertanks, better cooling system
that we can extract as much aswe did, but the quality of
extraction and the quality ofthe tannins and the body of the
(28:55):
wine is finer, is more elegant.
You have the same quantity ofextraction but more ready to
drink style.
Also, we did it through the useof bigger volume of barrels.
These are larger barrels.
S. Simon Jacob (29:18):
Larger barrels.
What's larger 500?
Assaf Paz (29:21):
Yeah, Okay, 500 liter , mainly 500 liter and some 300
liters.
In the past we used 225 to 350.
Yeah, and today I'm reallyhappy about the choice of 500
liters.
Choice of 500 liters when thebarrel is new.
(29:47):
You don't feel any change inthe intensity of the oak in the
first couple of years that thebarrel gives, but you feel much
more intense fruit over thereand in the long term you gain,
you cover, less the fruit, soyou feel it more in the finished
wines and the wines tend to bemore elegant, more approachable,
(30:08):
or, as the French people loveto say, you respect of the fruit
, respect of the terroir, andthat's how I like to think about
it.
So those are the means that Ihave my own experience the
better management of thevineyards I think the age of the
(30:29):
vines also play a big role init and the technology that we
have in the vineyard.
So it's always the same triothat supports the high quality
of wine production, trio thatsupports the high quality of
wine production.
I always look at the wineproduction as something that's
based on three legs, and mysister, who's an architect,
(30:51):
always told me three legs isvery stable.
You know, you put the camera onthree legs and so on and
tripods, tripod, tripod.
So it's a tripod.
Yeah, you have the quality ofthe grapes that we discussed.
You have the technology thatyou have in the winery that
helps you keep this quality,because you can have the best
(31:12):
steak in the world, the bestpiece of meat, but if you don't
have the good means to grill it,you can lose the quality and
the know-how you know, the humanresource, your own experience,
your own skills and talent.
So this is the tripod of thewine quality for me.
S. Simon Jacob (31:40):
I believe that that's what defines terroir as
well.
It's what you start out with asfar as the grapes are concerned
, coming inbound.
It's the procedures that youfollow in the winery too, like
Solera.
The Solera is really a terroir,but it's because they bake the
barrels in the sun.
Assaf Paz (32:01):
But this is a terroir that's in the winery, not in
the vineyard.
S. Simon Jacob (32:05):
Yeah, no, but it's part of the.
It's in the bottle.
Yeah, yeah, it's a terroir.
That's in the bottle.
Assaf Paz (32:11):
I agree with you in 100%.
I always said that terroir.
People tend to look at terroirand this is the definition of
terroir the geology of the soil,the topography, the height, the
distance from the sea, theclimate, of course, and so on
(32:34):
and nobody looks at the skillsof the farmer.
For example, I worked in bigwineries.
When you can take grapes, grapesfrom a certain area, from
dozens different plots, and thenyou, you understand that you
have one farmer some of hisplots are in the best locations,
(32:55):
some are in the less qualitylocation, but all of his grapes
are amazing.
And you have another farmer whohas the same situation
regarding the location of hisplots Some of them are in the
best terroir, some of them arein the lesser quality, but all
his grapes are mediocre.
And you realize that, okay, theterroir can be amazing, but if
(33:17):
you don't treat the vineyardsand if you don't do whatever is
necessary to get the quality,you won't express it.
And the same in the wineryWhatever you do in the winery is
defining the good expression ofthe terroir or losing it.
S. Simon Jacob (33:40):
Just a couple questions left and then we're
gonna taste some wine, okay.
I'm very much looking forwardto tasting we're going to taste
few, few special exciting things.
Okay, yeah, so with vitkin isalways, within the Israeli wine
(34:01):
culture, been a very special,has a very special place in that
culture lighter focused on theMediterranean varietals rather
(34:23):
than heavier red varietals.
And how do you see that goingforward with Israel?
How do you see that goingforward with your place in
Israel?
Assaf Paz (34:52):
You know, I don't know, I don't remember the
source, but there is a phrase inHebrew that says that only on
myself.
I couldn't tell or expressExpress about everybody else but
not about yourself.
Yeah, describe everybody butnot myself.
And sometimes when other peopledescribe you, I'm citing it
because it's much easier for meto talk about myself from their
perspective.
And it's me, but of course it's.
Vitkin, bless his soul, was avery special man and one of the
(35:24):
most talented wine lovers ofIsrael.
He, he called us the, the, theCarinian or the Mediterranean
prophets.
He said you're prophets becauseyou, in a way you, you went on
the direction that youunderstood that it's the right
direction, even though all therest told you that it's nonsense
.
People laughed at you, peoplemisjudged you, underestimated
(35:49):
you, and you still went to thatdirection because you believe
that this is the truth.
And in the wine it's not easyto do because in the wine
business you have many storiesand the story is a very big,
important tool of you marketingthe wine and talking about the
wine and explaining the wine.
(36:10):
And sometimes we are captiveand we are losing ourselves in
the story and we let ourselvescarry on too much with the
stories and not looking at whatwe have in the glass, the liquid
itself, what it gives you, andnot the story.
And when I started to understandthat we should make carinian
(36:33):
and green ash and other localvarieties, mediterranean
varieties in a Mediterraneanstyle, varieties in a
Mediterranean style.
It was from both, from tastinga lot of samples and a lot of
wines from similar terroirs toIsrael that made very good wines
from those varieties, like,like Spain, especially Priorat,
(36:57):
which is much heavier style thanwhat we're making today, but at
least it showed me thepotential and, let's say, the
deliciousness and the amazingexpression of the wine.
And south of France, you know alot of places in
Languedoc-Roussillon and theCarignan of Fitou and other
places, and I tasted Carignansfrom Dry Creek in Sonoma,
(37:23):
california and even Australiavery rare over there and
Grenache especially and so itwas experience but also a lot of
gut feeling that it should work.
And we went, we jumped into theswimming pool, not knowing if
there is water inside, becauseit's nice to make a hobby, do
(37:48):
whatever you want, because theworst part, you lose some money.
S. Simon Jacob (37:54):
But you have to be able to sell it.
Assaf Paz (37:56):
Yeah, but if you establish a business and you
decide on a philosophy ofwinemaking which is completely,
you know, 90%, 90 degrees toanother direction from what
everybody else are doing andsucceeding of selling their
wines, so you're either verysmart or very stupid.
(38:16):
So, fortunately for us, itworked because we knew that
there is truth over there.
We knew that those varietiesfirst uh, first and foremost
will give a more delicious winethat are adapted to the terroir
and the cuisine and and the.
You know the temperament of thepeople, right, also the, the
(38:37):
character we are.
We are intensive people inIsrael.
We need something to cool usdown, not to make us more angry
and more tight, so we want winethat will make us relax.
That's what I thought.
But also, looking on theterroir, even the birds agreed.
I think there is a hawk in thistree.
(39:01):
That's the reason they'reyelling so all of them are
nervous, also knowing that thosevarieties are more adapted to
the heat, to the dryness of ourcountry.
And you know what?
We got the proof in twovintages, in 2010 and 2012.
(39:25):
I did, a couple of days ago, Idid, a vertical tasting of our
old wine, petit Syrah.
A group of big wineconnoisseurs that taste wines
from all over the world invitedme because they collected their
own collection of old wine PetitSyrah from 2006 to 2013,.
(39:45):
Some of them in Magnum version,and they wanted me to be the
narrator of this tasting.
And I brought another wine andit was amazing.
And I brought the Petit Zira2004, which is still alive,
delicious and has even a fewmore years to age, gracefully.
(40:07):
And what we saw?
That there were two vintages,2010 and 2012,.
That were extremely hot, maybethe hottest in this decade, and
I remember that many colleagueshad big problems with this
vintage especially, you know,cabernet Sauvignon, merlot and
so on.
(40:27):
and I said that my varieties,like Petit Sirène Carignan,
really thrived, they shined inthis vintage, in this tough
vintage, and it shows that theyare well adapted, they feel like
this is their home and they'reshowing beautiful results even
in the toughest vintages.
(40:48):
So what we did now in Vitkin isreally telling everybody
Cabernet Sauvignon, merlot,chardonnay, sauvignon Blanc or,
as I like to call them, theFantastic Four, because they are
fantastic.
They are giving amazing winesin most of the places, in most
(41:10):
of the countries, but for methey are a little bit boring.
Continue doing them.
They are good.
I don't say don't stop doingthem, but open up to new
varieties, to new techniques, tonew genres of wine and
experiment.
We are a country that havemaybe the longest history of
(41:32):
winemaking, but since we had thelongest prohibition period,
from the 7th century up to the19th century, we need to learn
how to walk again, and you'redoing that by experimenting all
over the place, in all of theterroirs, with all of the
varieties and not with onlyfantastic four have you tried
(41:54):
any of the new, new indigenous?
S. Simon Jacob (42:00):
they call them varieties like like bituni.
Have you tried bituni?
Assaf Paz (42:05):
I tried.
I think I tried the Marawi, thebituni.
We have a few other in ourexperimental vineyard here in
Vitkin from those group ofvarieties that are exciting.
I taste the grapes and theylook fantastic.
I think this is a big part ofIsrael wine making and wine
(42:30):
style future.
Absolutely, because this is thesource.
This is the source for many,many of the world's varieties,
but also this is our source andwe need to go back to the source
.
We need to find where they growbest.
I know that they have a lot ofvery good properties that we can
(42:51):
use in new vineyards, but weneed more time.
You know we are Israelis, we'rerushing everything.
Yeah, we're rushing everything.
Sometimes it's good.
You know we are Israelis, we'rerushing everything.
Yeah, we're rushing everything.
Sometimes it's good.
You know we build your countryand a culture and achievements
that other nations.
It took them 500 to 1,000 yearsto get where we are after 60 to
(43:15):
80 years, which is very goodand very impressive.
But sometimes there are thingsthat needs time.
I I think that it's exciting.
I think it's amazing thatpeople try those varieties and
we should try more.
The only critic that I have my,my own, my 50 cent about this
(43:38):
issue is that we do them fromthe first.
Trials were made from vineyardsthat are located near Hebron, in
the Palestinian authorities, invineyards that were.
I know this because theyoffered me the same grapes and I
told them pardon my French.
I told them, I told them wherecan I visit the vineyard?
(44:00):
And they said, oh, you cannotvisit it because it's very
unsecure.
It's Palestinian authorities.
I don't understand.
How can I make wine if I don'tvisit the vineyard?
Oh, they will send you samples.
How do I know how they grow thevineyards?
What's the yield per acre?
Maybe they give me grapes, butthe concentration could be
(44:21):
double if they do someactivities and treatments in the
vineyards to improve it.
So they said, oh, you don'tknow.
You hope for the best.
I said I don't know.
If I don't pardon my French, ifI don't piss in the vineyard, I
cannot make the wine from thisvineyard.
So the only critics that I haveis let's do this from the best
(44:44):
vineyard that we got.
It will take three more years,it will take 10 more years and I
think that I know that peopleplanted vineyards with those
varieties and I'm really excitedto taste those varieties from
the vineyards that were plantedto make wine, and not from the
vineyards that are meant to givetable grapes Right.
(45:07):
Exactly.
S. Simon Jacob (45:07):
I agree.
Assaf Paz (45:09):
So it's exciting.
We need more time.
S. Simon Jacob (45:13):
Any message you'd like to send out to the
international customers aboutsupporting Israel.
About supporting Israeli wines.
Assaf Paz (45:30):
I remember your phrase from one and a half years
ago when we sat here for thefirst time.
You and I think I went back tothat, and I think I went to
study winemaking in Bordeaux inFrance in 1999, for two reasons.
said that the most, the easiest,most enjoyable way to support
Israel in those days is to buyand open and enjoy a good
Israeli wine.
First, all I was reallypassionate about winemaking
(46:03):
because it really combined allmy love the love for Eretz,
Israel, the agriculture, thescience, the biology and
chemistry.
I like to feed people because Iwas a pastry chef, so I like to
be the Sar Ha Mashkim, not onlythe Sar HaOfim.
And another thing that I sawwhat's happening around the
(46:27):
world regarding Israel in the PRfield and also it was obvious
to see even 25 years ago, and Ithought that wine could be maybe
one of the best ambassadors forIsrael to make our point and
our claim and to show that weare here to stay, and when we
(46:50):
plant a vineyard, like ourancestors did, and when we're
making wine from the grapes ofEretz Israel, like they did in
the Bible, and wine is sosignificant in our culture and
our religion.
It's a statement and I thinkthat everybody that, of course,
from the Jewish people, but alsonon-Jewish that support our way
(47:13):
and believe in the right ofIsrael and the place of Israel
in the world should enjoyIsraeli wines.
Some of them are very expensive, but you can find them in all
price points.
S. Simon Jacob (47:31):
Yeah.
Assaf Paz (47:32):
Like everything is more expensive to make in Israel
.
Wines are also more expensivethan in the rest of the world,
but I think that they aredelicious and today you have a
very wide range of high quality,high end Israeli wines and you
(47:52):
can pick up whatever you likeand enjoy it and feel like
you're part of this beautifulworld of Israeli wine.
Thank, you.
S. Simon Jacob (48:04):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for being on theKosher Terroir, thank you for
inviting me again.
There's a saying I saw recently.
Somebody asked how much do youspend on a good bottle of
Israeli wine?
And the person responded atleast an hour.
Assaf Paz (48:25):
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
You know, sometimes people ofcourse the money is an issue and
sometimes people are lookingtoo much at the price there was
on the other day.
I don't deal with sales in thevisitor center, but every once
in a while I happen to stumbleon a client that hesitates and
(48:46):
needs some help and I approachthem and she told me you know, I
want to buy a friend a gift andmyself a gift.
I said amazing.
And she hesitated between a winethat costs 85 shekels and a
wine that cost 125 shekels.
And I told her, I said what'sthe deal?
(49:08):
I said I don't know if I canspend 125 shekels on a bottle.
I say, first of all, yourhesitation is on the 40 shekels
gap between those two Becauseyou want to buy a bottle of wine
.
Gap between those two becauseyou want to buy a bottle of wine
.
Secondly, I think one it's.
It's one of the cheapest waysto make you happy.
If 125 shekels can make youhappy for an hour or for a
(49:32):
evening or for a nice meal, it'snothing, yeah, it's, it's
really cheap%.
S. Simon Jacob (49:39):
I agree with you .
I agree with you.
Assaf Paz (49:41):
Wow, so thank you very much.
I'm excited to be on the secondtime on your amazing podcast.
I think it's, first of all, youdo it in a very fascinating way
that I always enjoy listeningto it and, secondly, I think
they are very important becauseyou're choosing the subject in a
(50:02):
very intelligent way and pleasekeep doing it Trying, thank you
.
S. Simon Jacob (50:16):
This is Simon Jacob, again your host of
today's episode of The KosherTerroir.
I have a personal request.
No matter where you are or Ifyou are new to The Kosher
Terroir, please check out ourmany past episodes to be
informed of our new episodes asthey are released.
If you're new to The KosherTerroir, please check out our
many past episodes.
Wherever you live, please takea moment to pray for our
soldiers' safety and the safeand rapid return of our hostages
.
Please subscribe via yourpodcast provider to be informed
(50:38):
of our new episodes as they arereleased.
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