Gideon Marcus - Where Terroir Meets Identity And Courage - The Kosher Terroir

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (00:08):
Welcome to the Country Terro.
I'm Simon Jacob, your host forthis episode from Jerusalem.
Before we get started, no matterwhere you are, please take a
moment to pray for the safereturn home of all our soldiers
and the full return of all theremains of our hostages.

(00:30):
If you're driving in your car,please focus on the road ahead.
If you're relaxing at home,please open a delicious bottle
of kosher wine and pour a glass,sit back, and relax.
Today's conversation is withsomeone who represents the next
chapter of the Kosher Winestory.

(00:51):
Gideon Marcus was born andraised on Manhattan's west side
in a family that loved winearound the Shabbat table.
A post-college trip with hisfriend led him almost by
accident into California'svineyards, to Covenant Winery,
and into the deep end ofhands-on winemaking.

(01:14):
From there, he didn't just fallin love with wine.
He chose it as a way to build alife in Israel.
In this episode, you'll hear howa 23-year-old Ole is stitching
together three big journeys atonce Aliyah, professional
winemaking, and the ongoingeducation of his palate and

(01:36):
mind.
We talk about working harvest atCovenant, learning from people
like Jeff Morgan, Jonathan Heju,and Sagi Kleinlehrer, then
bringing that experience toIsrael, to Shiloh Winery with
the celebrated winemaker AmiHyluria, and then to the Negev

(01:58):
with visionary winemaker YaakovAuria.
We also get into deeperquestions.
What does it mean to make winein a desert that swings from
scorching days to cold nights?
How do science, data, andintuition actually dance
together in the cellar?
And how does it feel to returnto Israel after October 7th and

(02:23):
try to build a future here?
One vintage at a time in acountry that has clearly
changed.
It's a conversation aboutterroir, yes, soil, climate,
vineyards, but also aboutidentity, risk, and the courage
to start early and aim high.
Pour yourself something you loveand join me in my car as I sit

(02:47):
down with winemaker in themaking, Ole, an all-around,
thoughtful human being, Gideon.
Or Gidon Marcus.
Tell me how do you pronounceyour name?
Gidon or Gideon?

SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
So when I introduce myself in English, say hi, my
name is Gideon.
Well in Hebrew, I say shalom,call him Gidon.
Call you Gidon.
Gidon.
But but really it's I I go byboth 50-50, and at this point, I
don't even know who calls me,who calls me what.
It's it's pretty prettyubiquitous, so it's it's fine.

SPEAKER_04 (03:20):
So whichever is no, no, no, it's Giddon is great.
My name is Simon Jacob.
So inevitably people call meJacob Simon, or it's actually
Solomon Simon Jacob.
So take your pick.
I answer to all of the namesbecause inevitably somebody will
call me by one of them, but youknow, typically not in the right

(03:44):
order.

SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
So Yeah, and and usually in the non-Jewish world,
people sometimes think my nameis Marcus Gideon.
Okay, that's um, but that's notso often, once in a while.
So your family is from where?
So my family, like we're talkinggrandparents' family, or you
know, well, my parents first.
My parents both grew up.
Well, my dad grew up inManhattan in New York, grew up

(04:06):
in Centon Island and was born inBrooklyn.
And my mom grew up in NewJersey, and they moved to the
West Side when they got married,and they've been living there
for a very long time, and that'swhere I was born and raised for
most of my life.
And then both my parents didmake Aliyah a few years back,
but it was very scattered as faras like the progression of it.

(04:29):
Because I had come to Israelwhen I was 17 first, and then I
came by myself, and then aftermy parents came, but first my
dad and then my mom because ofwork and it was a whole mess.
But slowly everyone started tomake their way here, and
everyone's here but my olderbrother who lives on the west
side.
So wow.
What did your father do?
He still works, he works in uhcomputers, and my mom's a

(04:50):
lawyer, so for him it was a loteasier to do like remote type
work or to make that work.
Uh for my mom, still not soeasy, but figuring it out.
It's a constant effort.
Corporate law.
Corporate law.

SPEAKER_04 (05:05):
Yeah, it's a bit challenging.

SPEAKER_00 (05:07):
Yeah.
That's that's kind of why at 17or whatever, well originally at
17, but now at 23, there is it'sgood to do it now and make a
career here, even if thatinvolves, you know, something in
the US, whatever, but to bebased here from the start, as
opposed to having to jumpthrough the hoops that a lot of
people I see a lot of myfriends' parents need to do.
Right.

(05:27):
It's you know, it's a toughthing sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 (05:31):
There's an old saying, either you suffer
through Aliyah or your kidssuffer through Aliyah.
Yeah.
You know, that's that's thedeal.

SPEAKER_00 (05:42):
Yeah, it's interesting.
On one hand, it really is, Ithink suffer is a somewhat
appropriate term, but on theother hand, it's a privilege to,
I think, be the one to makealiyah, as opposed to like
obviously if I was born here,things would be different and
smoother in a lot of ways, but Iactually really like the the
journey and with its struggleand all, it's a it's a

(06:03):
privilege.
So I'm very fortunate.
I agree with you a thousandfold.

SPEAKER_04 (06:08):
I am really, I you know, of all the generations,
all the previous generations whoall dreamt of making Aliyah,
dreamt of even a chance to getto Israel.

SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
And here I am.
Yeah.
Pretty and and and living prettywell too.
Yeah, like uh that's the thing,is we're here and doing, like
for me, at least speaking formyself, I'm very happy and doing
a lot of really cool stuff andhave a lot of you know good
opportunity in the future, atleast I hope so.
Yeah.
And it could be worse.
So, how did you get interestedin wine?
It's a good question.

(06:46):
So it's there's partly I'dalways enjoy drinking wine just
growing up in a family thatlikes wine.
I'm sure as you know, and you'vemet a bunch of people, there's
different levels of like wine,you know.
I guess there's different levelsto like everything.
Some people they really enjoyit, they can be like, oh, I like
this, I don't like this, thenthat's about it, which is great,
nothing wrong with that.
So I kind of just grew up arounda lot of wine at Shabbat

(07:08):
primarily, and I always likedrinking it, but I wouldn't say
more than that.
And after I graduated college, agood friend of mine, Shalom, we
decided to go on a road triptogether.
So he just graduated nursingschool, and we had some time.
I was making LIA, I had a fewmonths until my LEA date.
He was starting a job, he hadsome time.

(07:29):
So we went on this road trip,and it was just him and I and a
small Hyundai Tucson and a lotof camping and hiking and just
exploring America, and it wasreally beautiful.
And when we got to California,it gets to a point on a road
trip where you can't plan.
We were on the road for months,two months.
So you don't really plan whatyou're doing the next day.

(07:49):
You kind of just wake up in themorning, get somewhere, and
figure it out.
So we had drove in fromCalifornia from from Oregon, and
we just started passing allthese vineyards, and I'm like,
oh yeah, California's winecountry.
Like you we were in a differentstate.
I wasn't even thinking about ityesterday.
And I knew of Covenant and likeJonathan Hadey's wines just
from, like I said, growing up inthe West Side, a lot of people

(08:11):
love Covenant and Hey Doo aswell.
And he he even has like a sortof cult following, I'd call it,
in the world of wine, which ispretty cool.
And so I was like, okay, let'suh I knew someone who had his
phone numbers, a friend of minefrom the West Side, a family
friend, so he sent me hisnumber, called him up.
I said, hey, like we're only inthe area for like three days,
but if there's a day that likewe could come by and do a

(08:32):
tasting, we'd love to learn somedrink about some and learn some
wine and sorry, drink some wineand learn about it.

SPEAKER_02 (08:36):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
And we showed up.
He actually wasn't there thatday.
He was on a hiking trip uh withsome friends, but they had some
other people at the Covenant,people that worked with
Jonathan.
Uh we did some tastings and wehad a great time.
And during the conversation,Nellie, who was formerly working
at Covenant, so he told me, he'slike, This is actually my last
day here, like my last week, andharvest is starting, and they're

(08:59):
looking for harvest intern, andI'm leaving.
And so it's a whole mess.
Nelly came back already?
Nelly's back, yeah.
I believe he's working atSupperberg.
Okay.
So yes, right.
That was where he wanted to go.
Yeah.
Right.
I think that's what ended uphappening.
Yeah.
And he kind of just wasmentioning, yeah, people are
looking, we're looking forharvest in June.
And I was like, you know, thiswould be a great opportunity to

(09:20):
learn more about something thatI've always enjoyed in my whole
life.
And I'm I'm just my personality.
If I like something, I reallylike getting into the
nitty-gritty and learning it onthe soap if something really
interests me.
So I was like, that sounds likea great opportunity.
And I was fortunate to reallystart learning and working at
Covenant because it was, Ireally don't think I could have
had a better place to startlearning and working with wine.

(09:42):
Learning about and working withwine.
And yeah, then I really justfell in love with it and I was
like, I love doing this.
This is something I want to seeif I can take it to be something
else, and obviously continue tolearn more.
And that's what I'm doing now.
And I was like, Israel's a greatplace to do that.
Obviously, a very strong wineculture here.
And that's that's that's how Igot here.
That's what I'm doing today.

SPEAKER_04 (10:03):
So I was I was wondering, I was one of my
questions was gonna be, youknow, have you worked with
Nelly?

SPEAKER_00 (10:09):
Uh so I never worked with him, but he did give me my
tour in Covenant and sold itpretty well because it made me
want to work there.
But yeah, no, we just had like afriendly conversation and drank
some wine together, and that wasabout it.
So what did you do in Covenant?
Well, as you know, it's a smallteam, especially because of the
breakdown of the Shomer Shabbatstaff of the winery to the knot.

(10:30):
So like today there's like ninepeople or so as a whole, kind of
on a daily basis, maybe a littleless.
And there's only four, includingmyself, there were only four
people who are really able totouch the wine.
And then on a given day theremight be three who are really,
really involved in, let's say,at least in the harvest, it was
like that.
And then some the other personmight be doing another job that
day.

(10:51):
So I was really fortunate tobasically do everything there
was to do with the wine-makingprocess in the harvest.
Like there almost wasn't thing II didn't get to do or well,
yeah, or learn how to do, atleast on a basic level while I
was there.
So from A to Z, when grapescoming in, obviously not
starting in the vineyard.
I went to visit.
I got even got to do that a fewtimes with Jeff, which is really

(11:12):
cool.
But no picking, just winemakingand pressing and all that.
And yeah, pretty much fromadditions to showing up at the
winery on Saturday nights andafter, you know, haggim to make
sure everything's okay andtopping off.
And yeah.
It was I really got to like belike they gave me keys for the

(11:32):
winery and they said, we'reputting you in charge of a lot
of stuff.
Cool.
So it was a great, greatopportunity.
Very cool.
Couldn't couldn't have beenbetter.
I rated an A.

SPEAKER_04 (11:42):
You just continued your plans to make Aliyah?
Did you had you delayed them orsomething because of the winery,
or you hadn't made a decision tomake aliyah until after you
started Covenant?

SPEAKER_00 (11:55):
So I did actually delay them for about a month, I
think it was.
Okay.
I kind of I I planned to makeAliyah, I don't remember exactly
what the dates were, but about amonth or two before I started,
pretty much right when I wouldhave finished my trip.
And because I had thisopportunity, I said, you know
what's like I have my whole lifeto live in Isla and I'm excited
to do so, but let me take thisreally unique opportunity,

(12:16):
pushed it off.
I think it was like a month ortwo, and I even considered
pushing it off more, but at acertain point I caught myself
and I said, you know what, likeIsrael's got wine too.
I'm gonna start and do it overthere.
But uh I really loved workingthere and learning there, and it
was an excellent, excellentplace.

SPEAKER_04 (12:33):
Hari Earl used to make the Covenant wines in
Israel.
And he's he's up in Bach Lomo.
So he's another covenantconnection.

SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
Yeah, I've heard a lot of cool things about him.
I haven't met him yet.
I think I was put in touch withhim recently by Jeff.
Yeah, so it's been uh one thingI've also more than just getting
to work at Covenant, kind ofmeeting, getting introduced, you
included it, with a lot ofpeople in the Israel-wine world
through Jeff has really beenstellar.
Like uh it's a pretty, I don'tthink you could be asked to be

(13:07):
set up with better, betternetworking potential at least,
just showing up because it's asmall world and it's a lot about
just getting to meet the rightpeople, and not only in a
business sense, just you know,just connecting to the people
who have similar mindsets andare interested in similar
things.
So it's very lucky.

SPEAKER_04 (13:24):
You also want to get involved with a winemaker who is
willing to teach.
For sure.
There are certain winemakers whoare really, really creative,
really good.
They're really always looking atnew things and they're willing

(13:45):
to be open and teach.
One of the that's one of thethings that's special about
Yakohoria.
He is He's really creative.

SPEAKER_00 (13:59):
I think to work in the Negative, you you have to be
to a certain degree.
Right.
Right.
It's you're it's kind of a sortof uncharted territory.
Yeah, but but you're right.

SPEAKER_04 (14:07):
You're 100% right.
It is it's unusual to even thinkabout it.
Um making wine in the negative.
But the thing that's also coolwith it is the things that make
wine complex complex andspecial.

(14:31):
One of the things is thetemperature differences between
the the warm days and the coldnights.
The cold nights days, I guess.
And there isn't a a more extremesituation than I know of than
the desert.
You know, you think the desertis hot during the night, it is

(14:53):
not at all.
It gets very cool at nighttypically, and it's pretty
roasty during the day.
So you get that extreme, and ifyou can if you can harness it
and not lose the grapes inbetween, the swings, you can get

(15:16):
some really interesting stuff.
So Jakob's also done some crazythings.

SPEAKER_00 (15:25):
Like he has a I don't know, do you know about
his wines at all?
I know I've had some of them.
I know that he really makes alot of orange wine.
Uh doing that.

SPEAKER_04 (15:34):
He used to.
He makes some, but it's not,it's not really.
He makes some.
That has been a trademark, andit's also been a pathfinder for
him to try other things that areinteresting.
Me.

(15:54):
M-E.
Which is really not M-E as inme.
It's multiple expressions.
Memud, I assume.
What?
Memud, like me.
Oh, multiple expressions.
Oh, it's an acronym.
M-E.
It's M-E on the on the la on thelabel.
And it's multiple expressions.
And the reason it is, is becauseI think it's now up to thirteen

(16:18):
different fermentations.
He does 13 different.
Takes the same grapes.
From the same well, not the samegrapes, but the same plots.
In the vineyard.
Some of them are have moreexposure, some have less

(16:41):
exposure to the sun.
To radiation, soil radiation.
He ferments them with differentyeasts in different different
batches.
And he has I think the latestone is 13 different
fermentations.
You know, and then he blendsthem.
Okay?

(17:01):
In one wine.
That's nuts.
Okay?
That is absolutely nuts.
You know, it's exactly theopposite of what you'd try to do
if you're trying to make moneyat making it.
It's a lot of work for onebottle of wine.
Like unbelievable.
Sure.
But he he makes these wines thatare just crazy, fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 (17:28):
That just really special.
That's one of the things,without even knowing him
personally and only reallyknowing him through some of his
wines that I've seen, and evensome of the ones that aren't
maybe as crazy as the me wine,you know, that he has a lot of
stuff that not only is justdifferent, but it's very
adventurous and exploratory.

(17:49):
And the thing is, you justunderstand that, at least for
me, I always felt, or I've beenthinking about it recently, that
when you do so much funky stuff,you really have to have a
really, really strongunderstanding of what you're
doing so that it doesn't turnout as just a mess.
And like when you have 13, it'sso many variables, and already
just one bottle of wine iscomplicated enough to do it
well, and it's not so easy.

(18:10):
And then you're not only tryingto do it well, but you're trying
to do it different anddifferently well.
And to be able to do that, youkind of it seems to me they have
to have a really, really, reallygood idea and just fundamental
understanding of how everythingworks in a way that a lot of
people probably don't or maybewouldn't think to.
So it makes me excited to get tomeet him too.
So I'm looking forward togetting to speak to him and kind

(18:32):
of see hear what it's about.
Yeah.
Who have who else have youspoken to here?
I so I've spoken to AmikhayChilo.
Okay.
I've spoken to a good amount.
From as far as I'm trying tothink, not too much else.
I've had contact with likemeaning just email back and
forth with a few other peoplewith Asaf Paz with Eran at Sora.

(18:56):
Eron Pick, I believe.
Eron Pick.
Yeah.
Sora.
Sorra.
Yeah.
And besides that, I'm I'm reallyjust uh got it pretty recently.
So still making makingconnections, meeting people,
learning a lot.
That's really cool.
Well, yeah.
Really awesome.
I also find that when you havepeople who, at least so far I
found, I should say, generally.

(19:16):
People who are interested inanything, but wine, I guess in
this case is the medium, in insuch a way that they are
putting, it's not just aboutmoney, they're putting time,
care, thought, education, likejust their heart into it.
That they really tend to be goodand interesting people that have
a lot more to offer than justlike a bottle out of table,
whatever they're bringing.
So I find that just a lot ofpeople I've met have been really

(19:39):
spectacular and they have likecertain shared qualities.
So that's that's really beenfun.
It really is special.

SPEAKER_04 (19:46):
It really is special.
So Yorucham is an interestingplace as well.

SPEAKER_00 (19:53):
So for me, actually, I I I don't know.
I really think that's quite coolbecause I love the South of
Israel at this point in my life,and that's kind of why I'm
really running after a lot ofthese things now.
Like I'm not married, I'm notgoing out with anybody, I'm not
looking right now to go out withanybody.
And I can do something like,hey, I'm gonna move down south
and live in what I believe to bethe most beautiful place in this

(20:15):
country.
I mean Yoruchum not necessarilythe city, but it's amazing.
The the area surrounding it aswell.

SPEAKER_04 (20:20):
I'll tell you something, Yoruchum is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
Actually, don't I really haven't maybe I visited
the city once passing through ona hike or something, you know,
driving to a hike.

SPEAKER_04 (20:27):
But it is a really amazing, friendly, special
community.
So tell me what what interestsyou about wine?
What what have you tasted thatyou've have you found any
wineries here in Israel that arethat you like?

SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
So when I was in America, yeah, and that was
pretty aligned with, and I wasin California and I was really,
you know, learning more about itand really just developing a
relationship and a passion forit.
Most of not all the wines I wastasting were pretty much from
California.
I also think that when I was I Iknew like I had lived in Israel

(21:04):
for a little bit in Shiva andShiva.
I went to Shiva in Manedum inthe Hasid Shiva over there,
right?
And then I also studied at TelAviv University for two years.
Okay.
And I knew some wine.
Like I kind of knew how muchwine costs Israel, and then I
looked at some stuff in America,and I saw like the import, like
the prices are kind of animport, and I said, you know
what?

(21:25):
I'm just gonna drink Americanwine right now and not feel that
I'm kind of paying anotherimport price.
I'll wait till I go back toIsrael.
So I'm still very muchexploring.
So what were you drinking?
A lot of companies.

SPEAKER_04 (21:36):
Did you ever meet Benio?
No.
Benio Gans from Four Gates.

SPEAKER_00 (21:41):
Oh no, I have not actually I I did find one of his
wines that I I really enjoyedvery much.
I do not remember what it was.
This was before I was reallygetting into the wine, but it
was at the start of my trip.
I was talking, I was inPittsburgh, and there was this
guy, his last name was Milch.
Milch, Milch, one of the other.
And he had a house minion, andwe went there, and we're kind of

(22:05):
these like travelers inPittsburgh.
We didn't really we were findingplaces to eat, and he was very
nice.
We were talking with him.
He sounded my phone.
You can sound like it.
And he I told him some of myplans of moving to Israel, and I
also was planning then and stillplanning to draft to the Israeli
military, and we just had areally fun conversation.

(22:25):
He was very excited.
He said, You know what?
Here's this wine I just got,you'll like it.
We weren't even talking aboutwine.
And he gave me some 4-gates.
That was the only time I evertried it.
It was the first time, and Ireally enjoyed it.
But I have to say I was thinkingabout it a little less
thoroughly than I would if hewere to give me a bottle today.
He's been around for a longtime, right?
Yes, he has, but yeah, I'veheard.

(22:49):
I did have some wine, Israeliwine juice in there that I
absolutely loved.
Which California wines?
Oh, well.
I just had a lot of a hugeamount of coffee in it.

unknown (22:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
Which I was really like on the first day, Jeff and
also Sagie, who is the generalmanager, Sagie Kleinlehrer,
really wonderful.

SPEAKER_04 (23:05):
What's his last name, Sagie?

SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
Kleinle.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (23:08):
So they just they're making a new, aren't they making
a new wine?

SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
When you say like a new like a brand or kleinlehrer.
Oh yeah, he's doing I don't knowwhat the exact relationship.
He has a few.
So he has a uh, I mean, uh the aSenso, a Shennin, which is skin
contact, I believe.

SPEAKER_04 (23:28):
Right, a skin contact shennon.
Yeah.
I somebody just showed a bottleof that and said, This is
wonderful wine.
This is amazing.
And I said, wait a minute.
You know, I looked at the labeland I said, This is made in
Berkeley.

SPEAKER_00 (23:43):
Hold on.
He's also it was reallywonderful.
And when I started on the firstday, both of them basically
said, like, if you want tolearn, the only way you learn is
by trying.
Right.
Or at least one of the like oneof the main ways.
Yeah.
And it is.
So I really got so obviously thewine's, well, and how do you use
the wine?
From when we were pressingjuice, I used to do this quite
regularly, and it was so cool tobe able to do this.

(24:04):
I would take a glass of thejuice coming out.
Yeah.
So it's a, I remember the firstgrape we processed, I'm trying
to remember what it was.
Wasn't Roussang?
I believe it was Char.
No, it was Vignier.
That's what it was.
It was Vignier.

(24:25):
Which has become specificallyCovenant's Beunnier in the more
recent ventures, is what I wasdrinking when I was there.
I I fell in love with that wine.
Like I really, really.
I don't know if it was justbecause it was one of the first
ones that I got to work with,but I really love the grape.
I fell in love with theirIsraeli viognier.
I did have one.
I sat down with Jeff rightbefore I left, and we opened up

(24:47):
an older bottle that aged alittle bit and it was quite
nice.
But I as far as so far, when itcomes with whites, I'd say I'm
still trying to figure out andunderstand aged whites.
Okay.
Because every I I haven't drunkthat many that are older than
let's say like five years, sixyears.
Had one 12, 13 uh-year-old umChardonnay that was it was quite

(25:07):
good.
But I consistently find, atleast what I've drunk so far,
that I enjoy when it comes towhite wine, I enjoy more the way
it tastes younger.
Like there is obviously I justit is pretty clear what is
changing.
Like you can say, oh, this isdefinitely older and it has like
more nuttier and like lessfruity aromas and smells.
But I just tend to really enjoythe like the the newer wine so

(25:31):
far.

SPEAKER_04 (25:32):
So Yakavoria makes a Simeon.
I had a number of bottles of Imight have one left.
That's a 2009 Semillon.
No That's not a new bottle.

(25:52):
No.
Right.
That bottle tastes like it wasmade a month ago.
That's cool.
It's the freshest, freshest,most incredible femignon that

(26:16):
I've ever tasted.
It it really There's certainbottles of wine that you cut
your teeth on in your in yourlife and you that end up being
like in your ingrained in yourmemory.
The covenant vionier from Israelwas just mind-boggling to me.

(26:38):
It was so delicious.
But it also took a while, youknow.
When you made it, it it actuallywhen it was freshly made, it
wasn't anywhere near as excitingas it was after six months or a

(27:01):
year.
So I'm there are a number ofItalian wines that are like that
as well.
There was an Italian wine that Ionce got from Yesse Horwitz who
produced it, and I tasted it andit tasted like water.

(27:22):
It had no body, no nothing.
It was it was terrible.
And I remember getting this andI bought like two cases of it,
and I said, Oh god, who am Igonna pawn this off on?
Because, you know, whatever.
So I put in the corner of mycellar and I just left it.
About a year later, my son came.
I was in Israel, and my son cameto our house, and he often

(27:46):
raided the cellar.
And he said, I have a rule.
If you come to the cellar, aslong as I don't have just one
bottle left, take whatever youwant.

SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
It's a very generous rule.

SPEAKER_04 (27:58):
So yeah, it was it was good.
And and he he took this bottleof wine and he said, This is the
most incredible white wine I'veever tasted in my life.
So I said, What is it?
And he told me the Greco deTuffol.
And I said, Greco de Tuffo?

(28:19):
That's like it was garbage.
It was like, boy, you can haveit all.
He goes, Abba, you better tastethis again because you're giving
away something that you don'twant to be given away.
That's awesome.
And when I got back to America,I took out a bottle and I
chilled it a little bit, and itwas fantastic.

(28:41):
Absolutely fantastic.
And it just blew me away.
So in each of these wines, theyjust make an impression on you
that it's just another one is aSancerre that I tasted in in

(29:04):
2012, 2014, 2012.
And I think 14 as well.
The Sancerre was the mostincredible white wine I've ever
tasted in my life.
It was like it was like orientalfruit like lychees and Rambutans

(29:31):
and all sorts of these very cumquads, low quads.
It was really an incrediblewine.
And it lasted a long, long time,but as it aged, it became more

(29:56):
less oriental and more citrus.
So it it aged into being whatyou'd think of as a a a really
delicious white wine.
But it gave up some of the magicin my eyes.

SPEAKER_00 (30:13):
So it's a wonderful story because I think it's just
so cool how like it the word Iguess the phrase the mind of its
own is is is used to you applyto a lot of things, but it's
really something else when it'sjust something starts, you you
finish making a like I guessfinish making it is a relative
term, right?
Right?
Because you kind of finishmaking this product and then it

(30:34):
just does its own thing afterthat.
Obviously, assuming it's storedin an okay place, that's not
problematic for it or anythinglike that.
That's a it's a whole notherworld of like you're sort of
producing it still.
You're making it with that inmind and what's gonna happen.
And it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 (30:51):
It's kind of like kids.
I know you haven't had thatexperience yet.
No, far from it.
But you can only put themthrough.
I have nine.
So you can only put them througha certain amount of you have a
certain impact on them.
You have an impact on them youryour whole life, but you really

(31:12):
have to get you get to a pointwhere they're on their own and
they're and and you can put somefeed feedback into it, but
overall they're on their ownfeedback loops, they're running
themselves.
And and wine is kind of likethat.
You develop it to a point intime and then you and then you

(31:37):
set it on its course, especiallyif you're the winemaker.
As an example, Semayon has atendency to mature over a much
longer period of time than otherwhites.
So if you've got a blend of ashannon and a semillon, the

(32:06):
shannon will be very pronouncedat the beginning.
But as it ages, the Samayoncomes from the background more
into the foreground.
And it does some amazing thingsto the wine.

(32:28):
So I really haven't had muchSamayon at all.
I'm telling you, it's like sothey're all sorts of little
wines like this that are crazy,that develop and do things that
aren't that you know you neverthink of.
You buy a bottle of wine, youtaste the bottle of wine, and

(32:48):
that's the bottle of wine, andit's done and gone.
But these bottles, when they ageover time, they can develop all
sorts of interesting things, alldifferent all sorts of
interesting flavors and whathave you.

SPEAKER_00 (33:09):
Yes, some of the most uh I guess impactful ones
that I did try was there when Iwas leaving Covenant my last
week there or whatever, last waslast day, had like a nice meal
and brought out some nice winesand I went sat down together and
it was really wonderful.
And brought out some aged Syrah.
It was in the Landsman Syrah andit was 2015.

(33:31):
Yep.
And the cellar master atCovenant, his name's Dashel.
He had I I think it was the bestway of describing it.
Like you stick your nose in theglass and then you look around,
you're like, how'd I get to thislike wet porous floor?
And it was really it was veryimpactful in the sense that to
have like a smell, you know, youhave like nostalgic smells or

(33:51):
smells from like cooking meatyou know, but a smell that
really transports you to anotherplace.
Smells can do that more thananything else.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (34:01):
Okay.
I I actually have a bottle ofCovenant Syrah from Israel.

SPEAKER_00 (34:13):
Which uh which year?
I have a 2013 because I I justopened up the 2016 from the
Covenant Syrah, and I was sosurprised because 2016 is our
wine.
I expected there to be uh likefeel a little more age on it.
No.
I thought like you if you if youif you close my eyes and gave me
this bottle, I told this to Jeffafter I had it, I called him, we

(34:35):
were talking, and I mentioned Iwould have maybe maybe three
years old.
Like I wouldn't even would havesaid, like, okay, you made this
last year.
Like there, especially withIsraeli wines, I I've I've
understood and I've heard from alot of people who've aging.
Really?
It's not true.
You think you find Israeli winesto have equal aging potential as
assuming quality to asCalifornia, yes.

SPEAKER_04 (34:57):
Not as not as age quality as as France.
Though some of them do.
Some of them do, some of themreally do.

SPEAKER_00 (35:09):
It's not some knowledge and personal
experience, it's more, you know,it's the type of No, I agree.

SPEAKER_04 (35:14):
What you're tasting and what and also what people
say.
Yeah, exactly.
And I you know, people say a lotof rubbish.
You know, I you know, they justdo.
I I I there were people it'sfunny.
People for years were tastingCovenant wine and saying and

(35:38):
they were drinking it way early.
And they were saying, this isyou know this is it's not good.
They don't know what they'rereally doing.
It's way overpriced.
And all the typical things.
Ten years later, in fact, 20years later, there are people

(36:03):
who are saying, whoa, this is aphenomenal bottle of wine.
You know, they've improved somuch.
You know, like this is an oldbottle.
But it's like they theyperception.
Actually, a lot of the winesthese days are actually

(36:23):
approachable much earlier thanthey used to be.

SPEAKER_00 (36:28):
Does that mean in turn though that it that the age
is less, I don't want to saywell, but less law?

SPEAKER_04 (36:34):
It it's an interesting question.
And actually, it's a question Iask most winemakers, you know,
and and each of each of themcomes to me and go, you know, I
asked myself the same question.
I drink this bottle and it's sogood now.
And does that mean I've given upon the future?
Yeah.

(36:54):
The only way I'm gonna know isto see.
So that's it.
And and the ones who are honestsay that.
The ones who are not honest go,no, no, it's wonderful.
I I built it that way.
Rubbish.
They didn't build it that way,they're just as surprised as I
am.

SPEAKER_00 (37:10):
But I I that was that was my first experience
ever with like an older winethat tasted that I I really and
it was not five years, ten yearson the bottle.
2016, yes, 10 years.

(37:31):
Really like not like just it waswonderful.
I on one hand it was really coolthat I got to open it and try
something that had sold.
I could ate another 10 years andno problem.
I'll I'll give you a bottle.

SPEAKER_04 (37:42):
But on the other hand, I was a little sad how I
drank it.
We need to taste the bottle ofthe 2016.
That was the 2016.
2016.
Okay.
So I have a 20, I have a 2014Syrah.
I also have one bottle of 2013Syrah left.
And and I didn't Jeff doesn'teven have that bottle.

(38:05):
No, they don't.
They don't have any more of it.
Yeah, I know.
And because it has the it has ithas the Israel map on it on it,
yeah, instead of just thecorner.

SPEAKER_00 (38:17):
Yeah, I I I heard about that story.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (38:20):
It's a pity because it was so it was a okay.
The first time I really metJeff, I'd seen him before and
what have you, but I met himwith uh with a a friend of mine,
Jay Booksbaum, who works forRoyal.

(38:42):
And he's a close friend withJeff.
And Jeff came into New York andthe three of us went to dinner,
and I said, um, you know, Jeff,I love your stuff.
I was actually a member ofCovenant's Club, but I was

(39:08):
really Israeli focused.
I wanted to make a Liyah, Iwanted to move, I wanted to
focus on Israeli wines, and andI said to him, you know, I'm I'm
I love your wine, Jeff, but Iwant to tell you, I'm really
focusing on Israeli wines fromnow on.

(39:30):
I'm not, so I'm sorry, I'm youknow, don't be upset, but I'm
I'm gonna focus on Israeliwines.
And so we're at dinner acrossfrom each other with Jay, and he
he says, Oh, you're gonna focuson Israeli wines?
Yeah.
So I said, Okay.

(39:50):
So he had this legal briefcase,one of these things that opens
up the top like a clamshell.
Yeah, and he opens up thisbriefcase and he uh holds it
from the top and pulls thisbottle out of the 2013 syrup
from Israel with the Israeli mapon it.

(40:12):
And I said, Is that what I thinkit is?
He goes, yes.
Covenant is now manufacturingoil in Israel.
And I started to cry.
I still choke up when I eventhink about it these days.
I started crying because I said,you know, I can't believe it.
That's awesome.

(40:33):
And we tasted it, and it wasreally new bottle.
And he just made it.
And it was delicious.
He said, you can make some goodwines in Israel.
Some excellent wines.
I didn't know that.
You know, he he didn't know iteither.

(40:55):
He said, there's some amazingplaces.
Telfuras.
There's some amazing, amazing uhvineyards that are available in
Israel.
So whatever.

SPEAKER_00 (41:10):
Uh Jeff, uh, when we were talking about like him, I
mean just hearing, first of all,his whole kind of journey with
Judaism in Hawaii, really cool.
And he's like, it's cool to likeit's cool to hear him talk about
it because I think every time hetalks about it, similar to the
way like you're saying you'revery like you have a lot of
emotion come up with a storylike that every single time.
And I've heard him say like I'veonly been there for two months,

(41:31):
I think I say it's ten times,and it was amazing every time.
I really just love talking tohim about it.
But yeah, I remember he wassaying when he came to the
Gulan, he was like, This is likeCalifornia.
He's like, This is really greathere.

SPEAKER_04 (41:42):
Like, it's unbelievable.
Yeah.
It it gets the same types ofexposure.
But so as you get to know winein Israel, and even as the
winemakers get to know wine inIsrael, they start to discover

(42:03):
different things.
Like everybody thought that theonly real place to grow wine was
up in the mountains.
Okay?
Because you get that paternalchange in temperatures.
What's happened recently now isin the Judean Hills, they found

(42:29):
an interesting thing.
There's an area called KivaIshao that a lot of the high-end
Judean Hills winemakers aresuddenly planting vineyards.
And and they're actually in thevalleys.

(42:54):
So how does that work?
Yeah, it's counterintuitive.
Yeah.
Well, what they found was thatwhere the vineyards are facing
south, you get a lot of solarradiation, you get a lot of
heat.
But also at night, because it'sa valley, you get it shaded by

(43:20):
other hills.
But because it's in the morningor in the night, the cold air
runs down the river beds, thestream beds, from the top of the
hills down into the valleys, andit chills all the vineyards.

(43:42):
That it's like AC blown in it.
And it comes down and it chillsthe vineyards, and it's really
cool.

SPEAKER_00 (43:51):
You're talking about like whites that age that kind
of give like still have a veryyoung smell and flavor to them.
I I had I was with mygrandparents, they came to visit
uh for the first time in a longtime recently, and it was uh we
were at the King at the KingDavid and we went to eat some
food there, and they had some bythe glass menu.

(44:12):
Yeah, and they had a Vitkin 2021Riesling.
Riesling.
Yeah, yeah.
Similar type of experience,obviously not as old, not 10
years old, but similar type ofthing that as I as I drank it, I
I was I actually went to checkbecause on the menu of the whime
said 2021 by the glass.
I went to look, I was like, theygave me a new one or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 (44:32):
No, no, it was really.
The Rieslings age beautifully.
Yeah.
And actually I have I had some2015 Rieslings from Asaf and and
just his Riesling Rieslings areawesome.
His new ones are crazy becauseusually it takes Riesling.

(44:58):
Rieslings have this kind ofpronounced petrol taste after
they age for a while.
And it it really is pronounced.
So I was just with the soft acouple weeks, three weeks ago.

(45:20):
Because I was in America foralmost two weeks.
But his new reasoning isphenomenal.
Not real new, it's couple yearsold.
He won't release stuff unless heunless he feels that it's rated

(45:46):
release.

SPEAKER_03 (45:47):
So you're not sure.

SPEAKER_00 (45:48):
Yeah, that's that's a tough thing to do.
Especially just like financiallyspeaking, you know.
Basically just have to sit onit.
Those bankers don't love him.
I can imagine.
I I I've had to take a guessthere's a pretty strong
correlation between very greatand committed winemakers and
dislike from financialinstitutions.
Right.
Actually, I went to visit MayaKaimas and Mount Veter with

(46:12):
David, who makes the wine there.
David Edelman, I believe hislast name is so he started
working with Jonathan and hestill comes by and I think he he
produces the wine, it's underthe label Otter and Fox.
He still produces at theCovenant facility.
It's a kosher?
Yeah.
Cool.
I mean, I made it, so I hope Idon't know another someone else

(46:35):
touched it, but I believe it'skosher.
It's his own label.
Yeah.
But that's how I got to know himbecause he used to come by and
once in a while to say hi toJonathan and whatever.
So he invited me to come up tomy commas and see what they got
going in there.
And they also do a lot of onebig thing they spoke about was
uh they refer to it as heads upaging, where they're holding on

(46:55):
to unclear if it was always inbottle or just in barrel.
That seems to be in in bottlefrom what I understood.
And then they'd bottle and justhold on to it for years, three
years sometimes.
Right before they're putting itout.
And that was what type ofbottles?
I mean, what type of wines?
So they have most of not alltheir wines are kosher.

(47:15):
So I believe I know that.
Um no, but I'm I'm not even theydon't even they don't produce
kosher versions of every one oftheir wines.
No, no, I know that.
Yeah, the kosher ones though, Ididn't remember.
They have a Chardonnay, aSauvignon Blanc, which actually
the SV is all kosher now.
Everything.
100% of the Sauvignon Blancproduction now is kosher.

(47:35):
It's not being sold necessarilyas kosher, but David told me
that this year, maybe past fewyears already, even.
You don't have to ask himexactly from what year.
Yeah.
But he said 100% of it was madeby him.
So in his production.
So that's cool.
But they and then they have aSauvignon Blanc, not Strasbourg,
excuse me, a Cabernet Sauvignonand a and a Cabernet Franc.

(47:58):
I don't, I think the CabernetSauvignon is the kosher bottle
on the Franc is not and forgotwhich one was which.
But they yeah, they do, I assumeprobably more aging than the
reds, but they hold on to a lotof stuff before they send it
out.
That was very just veryimpressive facility.
That was kind of crazy place.

(48:20):
That was a really cool momentjust seeing the the level of
just the way it's operation, thethe commitment to like we we I
got a tour through the vineyardsand just their the understanding
that it we're they're talking ofrow by row picking throughout
the harvest.
Right?
I can they'll pick they pick thesame grape at different parts

(48:41):
that end up becoming the samewine, but they're picking it at
the peak time for each.
It's like such an insaneunderstanding of their property
in the vineyard and each row.
It's just really crazy.

SPEAKER_04 (48:52):
But vineyards are not just vineyards, they're they
break them into plots, and eachplot is really different.
They can be in the samevineyard, same grapes, and every
plot is really different.

SPEAKER_00 (49:09):
The moment that that really I guess registered with
me.
Yeah.
Because you know, you you hearthings, and there's moments
where you really understand it,at least to some degree.
I just can't say I reallyunderstand it, but I start to
understand it, maybe is thebetter way to say it.
Chef and I were walking througha vineyard in in Dry Creek
Valley.
And we were, I forget what grapeit was, but he points out, he

(49:32):
goes, We're like, there's we'rein the middle of a row, so
there's on the right and theleft.
And on the right side, so thesame grape had gonna be picked
very soon, and the the east andthe west exposure.
Just huge.
The same thing, two feet awayfrom each other, right?
Very noticeable differencebetween them.
And if you pick them at the sametime.
It wasn't one wasn't bad or orgood necessarily, but they were

(49:56):
they were they were different.
And it was very clear that likeif you were looking at it row by
row, you wouldn't even think ofit as a plot that's cohesive.
It's uh even it's it's just twodifferent products coming uh
inches away from each other.
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (50:10):
So the other thing that's there is that the ground
isn't uniform.
So there are certain placeswhere there's mineral deposits
that are closer to the surface.
And all of a sudden you get, youknow, across a hillside, you
plant it, but there's placesthat have rocky soils and places

(50:34):
that are less rocky and whathave you.
It's very, very apparent inIsrael.
There's there's a lot of,especially in the Judean Hills,
there's a lot of places wherethe limestone comes all the way
up to the top.
The amount of earth between thethe vines and the limestone is
you know a few inches.

SPEAKER_00 (50:54):
Yeah, like even just taking an hour drive and like
from Kvar Dumim, drive aroundthe area, again at an hour
radius, there are places aroundthe Kvar, it's a it's much less
limestone sticking out.
Once you get to, which is closerto Jerusalem, once you go a
little bit more north, at leastyou know I'm thinking about
driving at the A Calone, andit's it's just looks like a
different, it's the equivalentof being in like a different

(51:16):
state in the US, but it's 20minutes away.
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (51:19):
So here you get a lot of diversity.
And so across vineyards, whenthey harvest, you get a lot of
diversity.
So most vineyards harvest by bylot, not by vineyard.

(51:40):
They harvest each lot and theymark them separately.
Many of the winemakers juststack in, you know, uh a bunch
of the lots together and whathave you.
Some of them, as an example, atReconati, Kobe Arv Arbiv.

(52:03):
If you can actually, it's funny,you can see from the winery what
the what the premise is from thewinemaker.
When you go into Kobe Arviv'swinery, Reconati, you'll see
that there are a lot of smallersteel, stainless steel vats,

(52:27):
rather than these humongousones.

SPEAKER_00 (52:29):
Towers.

SPEAKER_04 (52:30):
And though he has some where they do blending, but
he has many, many smaller onesbecause he he finds that he he
likes to be able to ferment eachlot separately because it gives

(52:50):
you a very different overallwine.
And then he blends them.
So it gives him another level ofcontrol by a lot.

SPEAKER_00 (53:06):
The carem side of things, the vineyard side of
things, isn't it?
Like I I I studied um lifesciences and neuroscience in in
college.
And so I have like the basis ofchemistry and organic chemistry,
and I took a bunch of plantscience classes, things like
that.
Nothing though, particular tovineyards.
So I find that I'm able to likeunderstand a little bit when

(53:29):
talking to people and readingthings because of that
education.
But it's just it's a whole worldin and of itself.
That also the separation betweenthe like the people running the
vineyards are very often not thepeople making the wine.
And that's something like that'ssomething I learned that like a
lot of things I didn't reallyknow much about before.
And that kind of surprised methat very often, obviously

(53:51):
there's involvement, but likeyou have growers and winemakers.
Right.
And sometimes they overlap.
But from what I've seen, moreoften than not, which isn't a
whole lot of experience, butmore often than not they
haven't.
And that's I because they'rewhole, like they're each and
their own specialty home.
Right.
One thing I'm I'm trying tounderstand and kind of sort out,

(54:13):
and I'm sure it will be for along time, and maybe everyone
is, is the mix between, like yousaid, data and intuition,
experience, personal relation towhat like obviously your own
senses, like your firsthandexperience to what you're
dealing with.
And especially someone from froma background of science, and I
worked in labs, and it's verylike we're trained to data, is

(54:39):
in a way, how whatever winemakersays, you know, I go by data.
I'm sure there are some that areultra, you know, lab tech
oriented, but like in college,you I was trained to be like,
everything you think is it's notimportant for the looking data.
It's following data.
And to be honest, I have reallywas fortunate to have teachers
towards the end of my college,uh my like university classes

(54:59):
that really were reallyaccomplished researchers and
basically kind of pop the bubbleand were like, anyone who tells
you that it's all data is lying.
Like it's all it's all.
That's that's what I was told bymy like professors at the end of
my college.
And they said, like, when you'reif you're gonna start to really
make experiments and model andtry to understand, well, try to
understand like you know, somediscovery or whatever, something

(55:22):
you're a system you're trying tofigure out, there is way more
following, you know, what youbelieve in your understanding
and making like what data areyou deciding to get?
How are you deciding to look atthe data?
What's your interpretation ofit?
It's a lot more human input thanI think they make it out to see.
I mean, that's what Iunderstand.
And in the world of wine, beentrying to understand how that
relates.

(55:42):
Like where is, you know, how howalso how concrete are certain of
the ideas of what data does orwhat you know a certain X
parameter means for theimplication in wine?
That's something that I Ihaven't really been able to get
much of an answer for.
Like you'll read in a book andthere might not be, like, X
thing or X content or molecule,and it'll give you this.

(56:05):
Uh I don't how true is itactually?
Let me tell you something.

SPEAKER_04 (56:10):
Let me tell you something.
One of the things that I foundfrom Yakov is that he is
meticulous about keeping notes.
And it's very important.
So it refreshes his memory aboutwhat he's what he's seen and
what he's experienced.
It isn't just like, oh, I'veseen that.
He needs to refresh his mind.

(56:31):
Because there is so much thatyou can do in wine, it is so
complicated the things that youcan do.
The variable if you blend grapestogether at the beginning of
fermentation, for thefermentation period, or you

(56:52):
blend grapes, you or you blendthe liquids after the
fermentations are complete, youend up with completely, totally,
absolutely different.
In one instance the phenolicchains go together like this,

(57:17):
and another instance they gotogether like this.
And they're totally different.
So, you know, it's there isn'tone right approach.
There are people who experiment.

SPEAKER_00 (57:37):
I guess the question is less about right or wrong
approach.
But to be able to say, I I thinkeven in science is a whole it's
a hard thing to do.
To be able to say this givesthis, and then you know, you you
know right or wrong or whatever,that's I think, like you said,
more individual and depending onwhat you're trying to achieve.
But uh even more basic, the ideathat we can pretty confidently

(57:57):
say, and I'm sure you know, I'msure it does exist, but that's
like I said, what I'm trying tofigure out is where is it much
more concrete and where is itmaybe a little bit more
abstract, uh, as far as like amore causal relationship between
your outcome.
But it's very hard to do becausethe only like in the lab, uh
theoretically, the main wayyou'd establish causal
relationship is by eliminatingevery variable except one, which

(58:18):
is virtually impossible to dowith anything in the winemaking
process, as far as I can tell.
Very difficult at least.

SPEAKER_04 (58:24):
So one of the things people strive for is is
consistency.
Okay.
So many, many winemakers strivefor consistency in their
winemaking.

SPEAKER_00 (58:38):
The consistency kind of becomes like in the beginning
a goal, and in the end,something that's more of a
hurdle.

SPEAKER_04 (58:44):
Well, it's it's definitely a goal, and then you
want it consistent, and youconquer that, or at least try to
conquer it.
It depends whether, you know, itwine is a natural process, so
you can't really guarantee whatyou're gonna get coming in and
out.
It also is blending is somethingthat's an incredible skill, and

(59:11):
over time you get to a feel forit that's just amazing.
I I certainly don't have thatfeel, but I've been incredibly
impressed in blending wines inorder to get what I wanted as an
outcome at the end.

SPEAKER_00 (59:29):
Yeah, it's been an intense time.
I I I I left Israel while I washere for two years in college in
Tel Aviv University and I wentto finish university in the
United States.
And I left right before Octoberseventh, and then when I made
Lyah and I came back, it kind ofit's not over by any means, but
you know, kind of looking itended in a certain way.

(59:51):
And it's a very weirdexperience.
Like I feel like I I I I missedsomething very important that
happened here, which I guess Idid.
But I live here now, so it'sit's a little strange.
I like to come back to a countrythat changed in a lot of ways.
It did.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:07):
It really, really did.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:09):
It's it's very noticeable as well.
I wasn't able to return, so whenI was in the US, I didn't return
at all for the two and a halfyears I was there.
Right.
It was almost impossible to getback here.
Well, actually for me, it wasmore a matter of that as well.
But I was spending time inIsrael before I went back to the
US.
And if I hadn't came back andthen it would have really messed
over.

(01:00:31):
Yeah, like try to kind of resetthe clock, sort of, and get
around and not deal with all thebureaucratic mess that way.
So I just didn't come back and Ifigured I was gonna be here for
my life, so I'll be okay for thetwo years.
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:54):
This is Simon Jacob, again, your host of today's
episode of the Kosher Terroir.
Please subscribe via yourpodcast provider to be informed
of our new episodes as they arereleased.
If you are new to the KosherTerroir, please check out our
many past episodes.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Gideon Marcus - Where Terroir Meets Identity And Courage