June 26, 2025 • 64 mins
Send a Text Message to The Kosher Terroir
What does it take to create a perfect wine? Is it even possible? And is Israel ready to produce a bottle that stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the world's most acclaimed wines?
Deep in the hills of Shiloh, winemaker Amichai Lourie isn't just crafting excellent kosher wines – he's on a mission to create Israel's first 100-point wine. His newest releases, the Legend series, represent not just exceptional winemaking but a philosophical statement about Israel's place in the wine world.
Named after King David's legendary warriors – Itai, Adino, and Ira – these wines embody the Jewish concept of "safra v'saifa" (the pen and the sword), reflecting the balance between scholarly wisdom and decisive action. Each wine tells a different story: the medium-bodied, spice-forward Ira challenging preconceptions about complexity; the elegantly powerful Itai with its remarkable mint notes; and the bold, quintessentially "Shiloh" Adino.
What separates a 95-point wine from a perfect score? According to our panel of experts, including Royal Wine's Gabriel Geller and Jay Buchsbaum, the distinction can be subjective, political, and occasionally transformative. A 100-point Israeli wine wouldn't just represent a personal achievement for Amichai – it would signal Israel's arrival on the world stage as a premier winemaking region.
The conversation ranges from tasting notes to barrel selection, from biblical warriors to modern marketing, all united by a passion for excellence and the belief that Israeli wine's greatest moments still lie ahead. Whether you're a collector, casual wine lover, or someone fascinated by the pursuit of perfection, this episode offers an intimate look at what drives one of Israel's most ambitious winemakers.
Pour yourself a glass of something special and join us as we explore what makes these wines worthy of our highest praise, but we're not just tasting wines, we're chasing legends.
For more information about Shiloh Winery, Please contact:
Amichai +972-50-342-2268
Main office: Office@shilohwinery.com
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Address: Shiloh Winery, Shiloh Industrial Zone, Israel
www.TheKosherTerroir.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Solomon Simon Jacob (00:09):
Welcome to The Kosher Terrior.
I'm Simon Jacob, your host forthis episode from Jerusalem.
Before we get started, I askthat, wherever you are, please
take a moment and pray for thesafety of our soldiers and the
safe return of all of ourhostages.
Welcome back to the KosherTerroir.
(00:30):
Today we're starting with atrilogy of wines emerging from
the cellars of Shiloh Wineriestheir new legend series named
Itai, Adino and Ira.
And they're not just specialreleases.
They're a declaration of intentin our discussions with Amichai
Lourie, Shiloh's visionarywinemaker.
(00:53):
He isn't just craftingexpressive, age-worthy wines
these days.
He's actually aiming forsomething even more audacious
Israel's first 100-point wine.
But what does it really take tocreate a perfect wine?
Is it the grapes, the place,the hand of the winemaker or the
(01:16):
palate of the critics?
To help us explore that veryquestion, I'm joined by two of
the kosher wine world's mosttrusted and influential voices
Gabriel Geller, the Director ofPublic Relations and Wine
Education Manager at Royal Wine,and Jay Buchsbaum, vice
President of Marketing andDirector of Consumer Education
(01:38):
for Royal.
Together, we'll all tastethrough the New Legends series,
discussing each of theirspecific nuances and market
focus, and debate what makes awine world-class and ask Can
Israel make a wine that belongsin the same breath as Bordeaux's
first growths or Napa's cultclassics.
(02:02):
Whether you're a collector, acasual sipper or a believer in
the power of possibility, thisepisode is for you.
If you're driving in your car,please focus on the road ahead.
If you're sitting at home, pouryourself a glass of wonderful
kosher wine.
Sit back and listen to thisepisode of the Kosher Jirir, as
(02:23):
today we Tell us about thevision behind the new legend
series, Itai, Adino, and Ira,and what inspired their creation
.
are not just tasting wines,we're chasing legends.
First of all, welcome to TheKosher Terroir.
Amichai.
Amichai Lourie (02:42):
So I think that making great wine is important
but, also, you need a good labeland I wasn't ever 100% happy
with the previous labels that wehad for the Legend series and
for the theme legend series andfor the theme and uh, since, uh,
(03:05):
the 2021 vintage of the legendwas sold very, very quickly and
was sold out and then on theShemitah year of 2022, we didn't
make any legend at all, so fora long time this was out of the
market.
So we said it's an opportunityto um to make a new label and a
(03:27):
new theme for the, for thelegend series, and because on
the 2021 vintage we made a newblend and we didn't even label
it when we bottled it, becausewe didn't know what the new
theme would be and what we'redoing, know what the new theme
would be and what we're doing.
And then we came up with theidea to use the heroes of David
(03:50):
HaMelech.
King David had, or it's listedin Devar, hayamim and in Shmuel,
etc.
The heroes that surrounded him,him and a lot of the.
There are also agadot andmidrashim about some of these
heroes.
(04:10):
So he said you know, it mightbe a great opportunity to use
the theme of the heroes of DavidHaMelech for the legend series.
I also very much like the ideaof safra v'saifa.
(04:31):
That means that you also learn,but also, when you have to, you
also use your strength.
And Chazal speak a lot aboutour great heroes over the
(04:56):
centuries.
That were great leaders.
They weren't only leaders inTorah, but they were also
leaders in the battlefield whennecessary.
And that's the idea.
This is what we decided to do.
Solomon Simon Jacob (05:08):
How did the wines reflect Shiloh's
evolution as a winery and yourpersonal growth as a winemaker?
Amichai Lourie (05:16):
Well, we try to do things a little bit different
.
Like the legend, adino, whichused to be called the Legend
Fiddler, is a unique blend andwhen we started doing it, I
think there was nobody else inthe world that actually blended
(05:36):
Petit Syrah, petit Verdun andShiraz and it turned out to be a
major big hit.
And it turned out to be a majorbig hit and showing that we can
do something that's different,and we were looking for
something very big, powerful,very fruity wine and something
(05:59):
that you don't even have to putyour nose in the glass.
The aromas come to you, andthat's how it started.
And then it evolved and we didanother legend that used to be
called Legend Rony and now it'scalled Legend Ditaille, of
Cabernet Sauvignon, cabernetFranc and Malbec.
(06:21):
And if we're talking about howthings progress, then we wanted
to do a unique wine andsomething different than most of
the wines that we make in thewinery and we made a blend that
started as a Granada Sirah inBarbera and then, right before
(06:43):
bottling, we decided to add somecarinian and it turned out to
be so good that we actually putit back in barrels for another
couple of months before bottlingand I think we came up with
something very different,showing that a wine doesn't have
(07:05):
to be heavy and big andpowerful to be interesting.
A wine can be a lighter wine,but very complex and very
interesting, and that's how thelegend Ira came to life.
Solomon Simon Jacob (07:21):
I'd like to ask just one more question
before we do the tasting.
I'd like to ask just one morequestion before we do the
tasting Was there a consciouseffort to?
Amichai Lourie (07:32):
craft each of these wines for different
audiences or different occasions.
So this gradually happened overthe years.
It started as powerful wine andthen we wanted to look for
(07:54):
something a little bit moreelegant and more complex of
years later we came up with ablend of the wine of the
Cabernet Sauvignon, cabernetFranc and Malbec, especially
because the Cabernet Franc hasbeen getting better and better
in our vineyards and we thoughta blend that had the Cabernet
(08:17):
Franc in it would be a verycomplex and interesting wine.
And then it evolved to tryingto do something really different
and showing that a wine can belight but very interesting and
complex.
I think I've been tasting andtrying to make a Pinot Noir and
(08:42):
I think that's where I got tothat trying to make something
that's yet much lighter but veryinteresting.
So that's what pushed metowards making this kind of
blend.
By the way, we just bottled ourfirst Pinot Noir.
Solomon Simon Jacob (08:58):
Mazaltov, and I tasted it already.
So I'm very much lookingforward to what the bottle is
like.
So thank you for letting metaste it.
Let's pull in the experts.
Gabriel Jay, can you taste thewines?
Can we go through them?
I guess we should taste them inorder Itai first, then Adino
(09:21):
and then I think Amichai shoulddecide what the order should be.
Gabriel Geller (09:24):
What's the orderai?
First, then Adino, and then Ithink Amichai should decide yeah
, the order should be.
Solomon Simon Jacob (09:25):
What's the order, Amichai?
Amichai Lourie (09:27):
Well, I think, because the lightest is the Ira,
then maybe we should, andbecause it's the newest wine, so
maybe we can start from there.
Good, by the way, there's alsodifferent vintages, like the Ira
is the 2021, and the Adu andYitair 2023, by the way, so
(09:47):
maybe starting with the Yerahmight be the best.
Jay Buchsbaum (09:51):
But you know, I mean, I see this almost
everywhere these days, theinclusion of Syrah and blends
from Israel, and I think it'sbecause of the richness of it.
So, even though you're tellingme that, if we're going to get
into heavier than this, then I'mcurious as to the fact that you
(10:14):
have this Syrah in here.
Solomon Simon Jacob (10:16):
Doesn't that give it heft?
Jay Buchsbaum (10:17):
Doesn't that give it spiciness?
Doesn't that give this bigflavors?
I don't know.
I'm going to taste it now.
Amichai Lourie (10:23):
I think the Syrah that I used for this wine,
this specific vineyard that weused in this wine, is, I would
say, a spicier, lighter Syrah,much more.
There's no black.
(10:44):
A Syrah will a lot of timeshave black fruit in it and here
it's, I'd say, spice and redfruit, and I think you can even
this sirah you can even if youlook for it or if you have the
bottle open for a couple ofhours, you'll actually get even
notes of black pepper, andthat's why I use this specific
(11:09):
Syrah for this wine.
Actually, the Syrah that's inthe Iadino is a completely
different vineyard and much moreblack fruit and riper fruit
than this, uh, the sirah in thiswine.
Jay Buchsbaum (11:26):
I think it's fascinating go ahead I think
it's fascinating that that andthis is a good lesson for all of
us that you have precisely thesame grape.
By the way, you see this initaly a lot.
You see this in other areas,where precisely the same grape
sangiovese, barbera or whatevercan be totally different
(11:48):
depending on how it's made andcertainly depending on where it
comes from.
So this is a great example ofthat.
I find this wine to beextremely complex.
You can actually identifydifferent flavor profiles as you
drink it.
And you're right, I think it'smedium-bodied, I think it's got
some tannins on the gums, butit's not oh, you know, it's not
(12:11):
a blockbuster.
Gabriel Geller (12:13):
Yeah, it's a wine that can and should be
enjoyed now, even though itshould go for quite a number of
years.
I mean, we know Amichai, weknow the Shiloh wines.
They have a track record ofaging nicely for a pretty
(12:36):
extended amount of time,especially compared to most
Israeli wines.
And I agree, it's medium-bodied, very approachable.
Red fruit, spice herbs as well.
You get some nice acidity, Iimagine, from the barbara, from
the carnage as well.
Red fruit definitely moredominant.
There's some black fruit too,but I would say that the red
(12:58):
fruit is more….
Solomon Simon Jacob (12:59):
The red fruit is more pronounced.
Amichai Lourie (13:01):
Really nice.
You know, when somebody asks me, you know sometimes people ask
me okay, what do you pair withthis wine?
You're a foodie, you like toeat.
What do you pair with the Yirahwine?
I say the perfect pairing forthe Yirah wine is my wife.
I mean, it's not what you'reeating with it, it's who you're
(13:25):
drinking with it.
Right, I mean, this is a winethat you pair with a good friend
.
It's a wine that you pair withyour spouse.
It doesn't need food.
So sometimes the perfectpairing is who you drink it with
and not what you drink it withright, very nice and also I see
(13:54):
that it's, uh, the the only wineout of the three wines did not
be Mavushal.
Is that a strategic decision?
Some blind tests for the pastcouple of years, testing
Mavushal, non-mavushal, of olderwines and of wines that we're
actually about to bottle, winesthat we just bottled, et cetera.
And he makes it reallychallenging.
(14:15):
So he'll put three glasses infront of me.
I don't know if two areMavushal and one isn't, or the
other way around, if I can tellthem apart, which one I think is
better.
And I can say that still,sometimes I'll pick even the
Mavushal wine as better andsometimes I can't tell the
difference.
(14:41):
But there's something in thiswine that I didn't want to take
any chances that the Mavushalprocess would change it, and
that's the special spice thatyou get in this wine, especially
if you leave it open for acouple of days.
We were planning to do thisZoom recording.
Two days ago I opened the wine.
Then we already finished halfof the bottles here, but I left
them open and I'm tasting thewines that opened two days ago.
(15:05):
Okay, and I can still.
Once I opened it, you get alittle bit.
You have to look for the spiceand for the black pepper for
some of it, especially the blackpepper and the spice, but after
opening for two days it'sreally there.
Solomon Simon Jacob (15:19):
It's really pronounced.
I did the same thing and I'm,I'm, and I'm getting that.
When you said black pepper, Iwent wow, yes, 100 percent yeah,
nice long finish.
Amichai Lourie (15:31):
Okay, well and nice long finish.
Even though it's not a heavywine, it still has a long finish
and the flavor stay in yourmouth and that's why I say you
don't need any food with this.
It's's almost like a ShalehShudis wine.
You know what I mean the winethat helps you leave Shabbos
gradually.
Jay Buchsbaum (15:52):
I might even suggest that this be slightly
chilled.
When I say slightly chilled, Idon't mean refrigerated, I mean
cool, like you would perhapswith a Beaujolais 100% Cellar
temperature like 60 wouldperhaps with a Beaujolais A
hundred percent.
Amichai Lourie (16:08):
Cellar temperature like 60 degrees,
right like 14 to 16 Celsius.
I agree a hundred percent.
I have a friend that got acouple of cases of this after
tasting the wine.
And then he calls me up acouple of weeks ago, mosei
Shabbat, and he says you know,you said to me it's a good wine
(16:29):
for Sardash Lishit.
Since I started drinking thiswine in Sardash Lishit I exit
Shabbos like Rabbeinu Tam Givesit another that extra.
Jay Buchsbaum (16:41):
That 61 degrees is 16 Celsius.
Solomon Simon Jacob (16:44):
Yeah, I agree, agree okay, which is the
next one?
Jay Buchsbaum (16:49):
and then you know , I also I've done this before
from my own cellar, which is,you know, somewhere in the high
50s, about 60 and um, and I'vedone this before.
It's, it's on reds, you.
You take it out the first sipis really cool, and then, as it
warms up, it gets even.
I mean, it just got this greatevolution.
(17:12):
If it's meant to be that way,it really does.
Amichai Lourie (17:17):
You enjoy the change in the wine too when you
do it that way.
That's why I do it a lot.
Solomon Simon Jacob (17:22):
And also, as it warms up, the aromas and
the flavors start to really comeout of it as well, in a very
nice way, especially thearomatics.
Yeah, the aromatics, that'swhat I'm looking for.
Okay, what's next?
Amichai Lourie (17:35):
The next wine is Legend Itai Cabernet Sauvignon,
Cabernet Franc and Malbec.
Like you said, Merlot growsjust a little bit different in
the Chilo region, I thinkCabernet Franc you can say the
same, and Cabernet Franc is lessgreen but gives it a lot of
(18:01):
power to it and makes it a verybig, complex wine.
It's called Legend Itai, ifwe're talking about the theme of
the heroes of David HaMelech.
So Itai was from Bnei Binyaminand they were known to be not
(18:24):
just scholars but also verywarriors, right the Binyamin
tribe.
But it wasn't just war.
You know the Rashi Tevot ofItay.
Itay is Eretz Yisrael, TorahYisrael, and if you want to win
(18:46):
Eretz Yisrael, it's not just bybeing a warrior, it's also by
using Torah Yisrael.
So that's the Rashi Tevot ofthe Yitai.
Gabriel Geller (18:58):
I have to say that the Cabernet is pretty
obvious on the nose, especiallythe Cabernet Franc with the
green pepper, definitelydistinctive.
Amichai Lourie (19:09):
You know the green comes more from the
Cabernet Sauvignon than theCabernet Franc.
That means I know where it camefrom.
Okay, the.
Cabernet Sauvignon in here isgreener than the Cabernet Franc.
I think the Cabernet Franc heregives a lot to the mint palate
and I think the mint palate hereis really impressive.
(19:31):
And uh, you know, I've I've thepast couple of years I always
look for the wine to be round,with no rough edges.
That means I I look for alsowines like that.
Sometimes you want a winethat's really powerful, you want
(19:54):
it to cut right through thesteak and whatever, but
sometimes you're looking forsomething for it to be round, a
big mid palette, a lot of flavor, and I think this is a perfect
example to, like some people saylisten, it's like the mosaic,
but maybe dial it down just alittle bit.
Jay Buchsbaum (20:14):
You know it's like I was going to say I find
almost a bit of creaminess to ityeah you know that that speaks
to your roundness that you speakof.
I really find a bit ofcreaminess to this, a bit of, um
, not in your face, opul ofnot-in-your-face opulence, if
you will.
You know, not-in-your-facebeing the adjective modifying
(20:35):
opulence in this case.
So exactly what I mean, kind ofalong the lines of what you
just said about you know, alower volume mosaic, if you will
.
You know, a lower volume mosaic, I'm telling you it's got a
richness to it, it's got lots offruit, without being like
knocking you over the head witha two-by-four in fruit, without
(20:57):
that, you know, yeah.
Amichai Lourie (21:00):
It has like the quality of a really, really good
chocolate you know every nowand then you get a really really
good chocolate, that kind offlavor to it.
Solomon Simon Jacob (21:15):
I liked it yesterday, not yesterday, two
days ago when I tasted it but Ireally like it now.
Honestly, being open for acouple of days, it's really
developed, so something to lookforward to.
Amichai Lourie (21:30):
You know, many, many years ago I used to go to
Eli Ben-Zaken from Castel andI'd get a couple of cases from
him personally and I rememberfor a couple of times my wife
and I would go there and for acouple of times my wife and I
would go there and she wouldtake us through the wine that he
(21:53):
is selling, but they take usthrough it.
This was opened up yesterday,this was two days ago, five days
ago, six days ago we do like aflight of the same wine that we
just bought, but a couple ofdays back.
And so I learned this from himI don't know, like maybe 20
years ago, something like thatand since then I do it a lot and
(22:19):
I open up.
We open up most of our Shabboswines Thursday night already and
we usually try to open upenough to last us also for
Sunday.
So you enjoy the the wine in adifferent way when you enjoy it
gradually, like that thedevelopment was trying.
(22:40):
I always recommend it.
It's a big, fruity, powerfulwine, perfect for pairing, for
steak, for lamb, for the goodstuff.
(23:02):
It has the acidity, it has thefruit and it's a perfect pairing
.
It's a perfect food wine.
Jay Buchsbaum (23:15):
What I find so obvious immediately is the color
Color is.
You know.
I have this thing where I teachpeople.
If you look down into thecenter of your glass, one of the
ways you look at color is tosee.
If you look down into thecenter of your glass, one of the
ways you look at color is tosee if you can see your fingers
from the top.
You know, look straight downand see if you can see your
(23:37):
fingers.
If you can see your fingers,depending on how much of a you
know, how much visual you get isdepending on how intense you
can describe the color.
This is like black in the center, almost very dark purple and
yeah, and I think I think evenbefore, and then I did it to the
(23:57):
nose and I go through thatprocess sight, smell and then,
of course, flavors.
But the nose follows throughwith, you know, this big opulent
aromatics.
Really, if you look at the legs, even it's got.
I mean, what is the alcohol on?
Amichai Lourie (24:17):
this I do know it's 14 and a half, 14 and a
half yeah 14 and a half, but wejust tasted three wines and I
think the alcohol is very wellintegrated into these wines.
Jay Buchsbaum (24:29):
Wow, you know what I call this.
Amichai Lourie (24:33):
I call this a lip smacker.
That's what I said.
You need the right kind of foodfor this.
Jay Buchsbaum (24:37):
No, but it's so deliciously fruity.
It's so you.
In that respect.
One of the reasons why Amichai,your wine, score Shiloh scores
the way they do, is because ofthis flavor, this flavor
profiles that people so muchenjoy that I don't know of
(25:00):
another winery that does it asconsistently as you do.
It's so friendly, it's so tastyand it's so lip-sm so tasty and
it's so lip smacking.
On and on and on throughoutpretty much all of your wines.
I think that's what gets youthose people critics, consumers,
(25:20):
etc.
They pick it up and they go boy, I really like this wine.
And then they give it thescores that they give it.
Amichai Lourie (25:25):
You know it's a lot of hard.
The most shilo of the threewines that they give it, you
know?
Gabriel Geller (25:28):
Yeah, I think this is a lot of hard.
The most Shiloh of the threewines, right, the most you know,
representative as a whole.
I wanted to say before that theYitai it's you know.
People say, oh, you know,shiloh wines are so bold and
fruitful, et cetera, which isnot untrue, but they're not all
(25:53):
the same.
And the Ita is definitelystanding there as more
restrained, more old-born Iwould say in style, more
old-born I would say in style,and the Adino is more of that
Shilo style that people talkabout, but it has.
Amichai Lourie (26:20):
Again, it's also distinctive.
I think the challenge in makingwine consistent is very
important.
I mean, if people buy wine,they want the next year to be
just as good, more of the same.
You know you like what'sfamiliar, but it's also, first
of all, for me it's a challengeto also make different wines,
also for a different audience.
(26:41):
You know Other people likeother wines, so let's make some
things that are a little bitdifferent.
And like the Barbera that wemake every year, that's very
unique.
Like the Legendira, that'sdifferent and unique.
So looking for things that are alittle bit different, I think
(27:04):
first of all it keeps it moreinteresting for me as a
winemaker to also do things thatare a little bit different for
other audiences and for otheroccasions.
And the challenge is alwaysthere to try and do also
something different, not more ofthe same.
So I think this reallyrepresents three completely
(27:26):
different wines in the sameseries, so everybody can find
something that he likes.
You know I always recommend,like I said, I recommend people
open up your wines for Shabbat,open them up Thursday night and
see how they are on Thursday,friday, on Shabbos, mose,
shabbos, sunday, and then yousee how the wines evolve.
(27:48):
But also sometimes it's veryinteresting to put in front of
you two or three glasses of wineand drink while you're eating
especially a long meal, like onShabbos Instead of having only
one kind of wine or one glassand changing different wines,
have in front of you two orthree different wines and bounce
(28:09):
back and forth while you'reeating between the different
wines, and that way you can.
Everything is much better, thefood is much better, the wine is
much better and the experienceis much more fun that way.
Solomon Simon Jacob (28:23):
You know, amichai.
You talked to us about thelabel design and the branding.
What story are you trying totell visually with the label?
Amichai Lourie (28:33):
We're waiting for Mashiach ben David or we're
working on Mashiach ben David,and I think showing and talking
about David HaMelech is timeswhat we're going through, I mean
(28:54):
not just now during the war,but in general Talking about
David Amelech.
I think is important Talkingwhat David Amelech stands for,
where he came from and wherewe're going, and understanding
that David HaMelech had heroesthat were very big in Torah and
(29:21):
Kehuna.
Ira was a Kohen and a scholar.
Everybody learned and fought.
The Gemara talks about Adino.
Why was this hero called Adino?
Adino is, as in delicate, youknow, soft.
So the Gemara says why was hecalled Adino?
(29:44):
Ha'etzin?
That was his name.
So the Gemara says that in theMidrash says that when he was in
the Bet Midrash, when he waslearning, he was flexible and
delicate adino, but when he hadto go fight, then he was aetzni.
(30:04):
He was very strong, like toughwood, very strong like tough
wood.
And I think that it's importantthat we understand that maybe
this is what we're supposed tobe.
We're supposed to be safav'saifa.
We're supposed to be verystrong, learning and
(30:31):
understanding where we came from, but also understand that our
strength comes from our historyand from the Torah.
The strength doesn't come justfrom strength alone.
Itai is Eretz Yisrael, torahYisrael.
You're not just Torah Yisrael,you're also Eretz Yisrael, torat
Yisrael.
You're not just Torat Yisrael,you're also Eretz Yisrael, and
(30:52):
you're also a hero, and you knowhow to hold your sword.
And we're all praying that theday will come that we'll use the
swords not for war but forplowing right, I don't know.
The Basuk of the Basuk says,actually tells us that we're
(31:21):
going to use those tools that weuse for war.
We will use them foragriculture in Eretz Yisrael.
That would be used in the vines, in the vineyards.
So it's really understandingthat.
Jay Buchsbaum (31:43):
Yeah, if I may, I remember as a kid demonstrating
in front of the UN at DagHammarskjöld Plaza, and there's
a saying demonstrating in frontof the un at god hummus old
plaza, and there'sa is it sayingit's from, it's from the
hillary, you'll beat your swordsinto plowshares right what
challenges did you face whenproducing the legend series, and
(32:03):
was there a moment you thoughtit might not come together?
Amichai Lourie (32:09):
um, well, because it slowly creeped up on
me, so I always knew it wasworking and it would be okay.
I didn't have any doubt.
The only thing that didn'treally happen as we expected is
when we bottled the Legend ofIrak.
It was right before the warstarted.
(32:32):
2021, it is right before and,uh, we didn't get a chance
because of the war, we didn'tget a chance to brand and
relabel and everything.
So it took a couple of yearsfor us to uh finally introduce
it into the market.
So it didn't really happen aswe planned.
I think that the past two yearshave been very challenging, to
(33:00):
say the least, but, like Gabesaid, you know I don't have to
worry because our wines age well.
So if it takes a couple ofyears until we finally label it,
a bottle age well.
So if it takes a couple ofyears until we finally label it
in a bottle, it's.
You know, patience is somethingthat you learn when you work,
when you make wine and when youwork in agriculture and edit
society.
You need a lot of patience andyou need a lot of faith.
(33:22):
It was worth waiting for.
Solomon Simon Jacob (33:28):
Amichai, I want to move on a little bit
onto the concept that you'retrying to create the first
100-point wine from Israel.
Amichai Lourie (33:40):
I think I can imagine that a lot of people are
working on that, A lot ofpeople are trying to do that.
Solomon Simon Jacob (33:47):
I don't think with the energy that
you're doing it.
Amichai Lourie (33:51):
Well, you're right, I've been putting in a
lot of energy into trying to dothis in the past 10 years.
I don't know if Jay remembers,but he was at the winery when I
had him taste a few barreltastings of things that I was
trying to get there and stilldidn't get there.
(34:11):
And I remember asking Jay andJay said to me first you have to
understand especially thatyou're more new world than old
world, that it has to be a foodbomb off the charts.
It's not just complexity, ithas to also be there.
You have to have something thatcan carry that fruit for a long
(34:33):
time.
And then I remember speaking toGabe about wines like this and
you recommended I don't remember, I don't know if you remember
Gabe must have been like 10years ago maybe and said to me
Amichai, it's about time you goto Napa and go taste those wines
that are getting 100 points.
(34:54):
And I actually did that abouteight years ago I think it was
maybe nine years ago, somethinglike that.
I actually took a tour.
I went to Napa and I hadsomebody take me into the back
door.
That means I didn't go into thevisitor center, I went in back
(35:14):
and met the winemakers that makethese wines that are 100 points
, and actually tasted a lot ofthem and I have to admit that I
came back to Israel moreconfused than when I went there.
And it's been a long journeyand I've been doing a lot, a lot
(35:38):
of hard work in the vineyards,a lot of hard work in the winery
.
Almost every year I've beenscratching the results, you know
tasting, letting it age,different options, different
things, and then saying almostNot there, but almost there.
(35:58):
We even have a code at thewinery that certain barrels that
we feel that we're gettingclose, so we started calling it
98, not 100, 98, because we'reworking on it.
It's a work in progress and thefirst year that I said… you
(36:20):
showed me that barrel.
I showed you the barrels thatsay 198, right, we still have
those, we're still working onthem.
But in the 2019 vintage was thefirst time that I said I think
I nailed it and we did a lot, alot of hard effort of the
blending and really separatingthe men from the boys, Since we
(36:44):
also invested in a lot of reallyhigh quality barrels for these
wines Very, very unique andexpensive barrels for it Once we
felt that we had the right wine, and from the 2019 vintage, we
bottled about 4,000 bottles.
And then again 2020, that, inmy opinion, was one of the best
(37:10):
years for us in Israel and webottled again close to 4,000
bottles of a wine like this.
Unfortunately, 21, 22,.
We tried but we felt that wedidn't get there, so it was
already blended into other wines.
Get there.
(37:34):
So it was already blended intoother wines and we hope for 2023
and maybe 2024 that we'll beable to try it again.
In the meantime, we bottled itand we didn't label it, and
we've been tasting it, tested itwith Motti Herzog both Mottis,
California and New York not along time ago and hopefully next
(37:54):
time you come around, you'll beable to taste it with us.
Simon, I think you tasted oneof the flights that we did right
, yes.
I think we're very close, veryclose Okay.
Solomon Simon Jacob (38:10):
Gabriel, I want to ask you a question.
When you hear 100-point wine,what does it signify to you
personally, both as a critic anda wine lover?
Gabriel Geller (38:22):
It's a great question.
So a couple of weeks ago, Jayand I were at the James Suckling
Great Wines Award event in NewYork.
The James Suckling Great WinesAward event in New York, which
is one of the most prestigiouswine tastings in the world, and
(38:48):
all the wines there from allover the world.
There was one winery fromIsrael for the very first time
Audemont.
Audemont, and there are many ofthe greatest Italian, spanish,
french Napa wineries, very greatnames, and there are over 250
wines there.
It's kind of overwhelmingbecause you're like, wow, those
(39:12):
are like some of the very bestwines in the world from some of
the most prestigious wineries.
But you cannot taste them all.
You know it's impossible,there's no time to get through
even you know part of it.
So you have to strategize.
And I go to such tastingspretty frequently and I was
(39:39):
thinking to myself.
I was looking at the list ofthe wines and it said next to
each wine what's the JamesSucking rating?
And I was like you know, it'sfunny, at any of those tastings
I never thought of prioritizingthe wines that I should taste
based on the rating and I waslike I see there is a number of
(40:01):
100 points wines, let's go tastethose you know, see what it's
all about.
And I tasted four or fivedifferent wines from different
regions and countries with 100points ratings from James
Sucklin and I must say that inmy personal opinion, none of
(40:24):
these 100-point wines werebetter than some of the best
wines that I've tasted at theevent.
So I was like they're very goodwines for sure.
Why did he rate them 100 points.
I don't know.
I cannot honestly say that inmy personal experience and
(40:47):
opinion, I find these wines tobe better, to be worthy of a
higher rating than those others.
So I think that it's a verypersonal thing and, you know,
100 points means perfection.
I do not think that such athing, you know… it's possible.
(41:07):
It's like you know they havebuilt, it's like people.
You know.
There's no such thing asperfect.
It doesn't exist.
And I think that we have toremember also that it's not just
about personal taste.
It's also about tasting in themoment who you're tasting with,
(41:28):
where are you tasting, whathappened during the day?
You know when you tasted thewine, what's your mood, what's
the weather outside, how longthe bells have been up, and
there are so many differentfactors and the exact same wine
that one wine critic might rate95 points today.
(41:49):
If he tasted that same winetomorrow or next week, the
rating could be different.
It would likely be different,and so I think that's a specific
, you know.
I think that the differencebetween a 98 point that's why I
like that.
Amichai Lourie (42:08):
That's why we call it 98.
You know there's.
Gabriel Geller (42:14):
No, it's not significant.
It's not significant.
But when you go to 95 or 97, 92or 94, 98 or 100, it's pretty
much the same thing.
So it's more about the personaltaste of whoever tasted the
wine and whatever other externalfactors came into play.
(42:38):
But yeah, you can assume thatsomeone who rates a wine 100
points is in good mood, nomatter which one it is.
Amichai Lourie (42:45):
That's why we're calling it 98.
In the meantime, you know aninternal what we call 98?
Because we want to get as closeto perfect as possible.
You know, I tasted the Yisodwines from Herzog a couple of
times and I don't remember whichof them, but one of them that I
(43:06):
tasted I said to myself wow,this is as close to perfect as
can be.
There was something aboutthere's nothing missing.
You know, maybe I'm notdescribing.
You know, sometimes I think ofwine differently, but in my head
(43:27):
it's like as close to perfectas it can be and everything that
I want in a wine is there,Nothing's missing.
So that's what I'm looking for.
Maybe I'm not.
This is the way I'm describingthat.
100 point or as close topossible.
(43:48):
Everything I want in a wine isthere Everything, Nothing's
missing.
Can it be better?
Maybe, Like you said, nobody'sperfect.
There's always another layer,but it has to be as close to
perfect as can be and that'swhat we're working on.
Solomon Simon Jacob (44:08):
Jay, I have a question for you, as well as
this question that everybody'sanswering, but I have from your
perspective, specifically from amarketing or industry
perspective how powerful is the100-point designation in shaping
perception in sales?
Jay Buchsbaum (44:29):
Gone, baby gone.
I'll never forget.
As a much younger man, Irepresented non-kosher, some
non-kosher wines, talking about,I don't know, 35, 40 years ago,
and I I started, of course, at12.
That's why obviously the newyork times wrote up one of the
(44:50):
wines that I represented wascalled lytton springs Infandel
and it was made from 70-year-oldvines and et cetera, et cetera,
and literally the next day,within a day, it was all sold
out.
Now it wasn't thousands ofcases, but yeah, it's gone, baby
gone.
I will say there is, you knowwhen, done right.
(45:10):
I think the Wine Spectator doesit right and some others do it
right.
I was for three years in a row,maybe four, I don't remember I
was asked to be a taster at theTerra Vino and in those days it
was managed by OIV, theorganization of Inoteca and
Vinoteca, which is aninternational organization that
(45:31):
every single wine growing regionin the world belongs to, except
one, the us.
The us is not signed on to oiv,but they actually have a
hundred point score on a sheetthat gives every component.
So, for example, aroma is,let's say, 16 points.
(45:51):
So that has to be perfect.
And even within aroma there'sthey still do it like that has
to be perfect.
And even within aroma there'slike they still do it like that.
By the way, there's threedifferent breakdowns, you know
so when.
So, when Amichai talks about youknow nothing missing what he
what, at least to me, it'ssaying is that every single
component and every single subcomponent, you know, will that
(46:13):
give you the pleasure?
Every single subcomponent, youknow, will that give you the
pleasure?
I'm not sure, but you know thatyou get just from drinking the
wine with your loved one, likeyour wife, as Amichai pointed
out earlier.
I don't know, but I will tellyou that you know, the color has
to be perfect, and you know.
And the aroma has to be perfecton three different levels
Initial, you know.
(46:34):
Tertiary, blah, blah, blah, andeach one if you can score them
at the highest points, for eachone, you end up with a hundred
point score.
I think that's the and I thinkit's very real.
You know it's very technicaland it's not.
Oh my gosh, this is sowonderful.
Although that's part of it, itreally is, I mean, if done right
.
I think it wonderful.
(46:54):
Although that's part of it, itreally is.
I mean, if done right, I thinkit can be meaningful, not just
from a marketing point of view,like you just asked me, but also
from a real point of view.
Solomon Simon Jacob (47:04):
So the question leads to the next thing
Do you think that 100-pointkosher wine would break into the
more mainstream retail spaces?
Jay Buchsbaum (47:16):
Oh, there's no doubt about it.
As a matter of fact, it alreadyhappened once I don't know if
you remember this Many, manyyears ago, our good friend from
Ganyton Wines had the bestCabernet in California, best
(47:41):
Cabernet in California, the bestCabernet I think it was 90,
could have been 96.
I'm not sure, but it wasliterally the best and it was in
the Wine Spectator as the bestwine, best Cabernet ever.
And, yeah, he crossed over.
He completely sold outimmediately.
I think what's more importantthan whether it can cross over
or not is, specifically, when itcomes to getting 100.1 for
(48:01):
Israel.
It'll tell you, it'll tell theconsumer, that Israel has
arrived, which is everythingthat the IWPA is trying to do.
More importantly than I hate tosay this, amichai, more
importantly than you benefit,benefiting alone, personally, it
will literally, you know, bringattention to the whole israeli.
(48:23):
You know thing of making goodwines.
You know, you don't see, I'venever and I don't think we'll
ever see a hundred point winefrom bulgaria, even though they
make some great wines, or fromCyprus or from Hungary or from.
I don't think so, but I haven'tseen it.
(48:46):
I don't recall ever seeing it.
And I think we can do it fromIsrael.
And if we do it from Israel,it's going to transform
perception of Israel, moreimportantly, not only to the
general consumer, but to thebuyers and retailers and
restaurants.
Wow, israel, you know what Ibetter look at?
(49:07):
You know some wine by the glassfrom Israel.
If they can make a hundredpoint wine, they can make a good
wine by the glass wine which is20 bucks or $30 or whatever.
That's where I think he askedme about marketing.
That's where I think the impactof marketing will be greater
than anywhere else.
Solomon Simon Jacob (49:25):
Gabriel question have you ever tasted a
wine that you felt should havegotten 100 points but didn't?
Gabriel Geller (49:32):
No, because, again, to go back to what I was
saying before, I don't think youcan get to 100 points.
So have I tasted wines that gota low rating, low-ish rating,
(49:52):
that I thought should havegotten a much higher rating?
Of course, many times.
Solomon Simon Jacob (49:57):
Is there a wine you ever tasted that left
you speechless, that left youlike wow?
Gabriel Geller (50:05):
Yeah, a few, a few, Obviously the Pentecane
2003.
Jay Buchsbaum (50:11):
There, you go.
Solomon Simon Jacob (50:16):
You know where?
You've got at least threelovers on here of Ponte Cane
2003.
Jay Buchsbaum (50:20):
No, but I think the Cloveau show, that older
Cloveau show, remember that one,yep.
Solomon Simon Jacob (50:26):
Yeah.
Jay Buchsbaum (50:26):
It was pretty amazing and I know I'm going to
get petched for this, but Ithink there was a Katsurin 96
that just blew me away 96Katzrin.
Gabriel Geller (50:39):
To give a concrete example on this topic,
and it's upsetting because it'snot just about can it get that
rating or not, it's more aboutthat.
Unfortunately, there's politicsinvolved in some cases, and I'm
not going to name thepublication that is responsible
for that.
(51:00):
But nine years ago now, almostnine years ago, jay and I had a
lunch together with a veryprestigious publication,
together with Gilad Flam fromFlam Winery, of course, and the
wines were great, they'refantastic, and the guy from the
(51:23):
publication was like ravingabout them.
And then a few weeks or a fewmonths later, they published the
ratings for those wines andthey were very disappointing to
say the least.
Like 87, 88, 89, the ratingsfor those wines, and they were
very disappointing, to say theleast, like 87, 88, something
like that, 89.
Like the way it was ratingabout it.
You're like, wow, I really lovethis.
(51:43):
It's going to give it 93 or 94or something like that, maybe
more 87, 88.
And we're like, what the heck?
And it's a publication thatconsistently, you know, first of
all, they don't publish veryoften uh, it's changed for the
better, but historically they'renot publishing a lot of ratings
(52:04):
for israeli wines.
But when they were the ratingsyou know you had here there are
90 points and 91, uh and uh, itdidn't go much higher than that.
And a few years ago I I was in ameeting with someone who's
really in the know, an insider,and that person told me that
(52:27):
that publication has it's apolicy by them where they
decided that Israel as a wideregion has not yet crossed the
threshold, where, where theydecided that Israel as a wine
region, has not yet crossed thethreshold where they could get a
rating higher than 93.
So even if you make the bestpossible wine, a wine that would
(52:48):
be deserving from them 100points or 98, whatever you want
to call it, they would not givemore than 93, because they
decided as a policy that theywon't give a higher rating than
93 to wine from that region.
And until they change thatpolicy, until they change their
mind and think like oh well, bynow Israel has gotten better,
(53:12):
they have reached the next level, has gotten better, they've
reached the next level.
Now we can raise that bar andgive higher ratings.
That's very upsetting,obviously, because I think it's
not fair to the wineries, ofcourse, and I also don't think
it's fair to the readers and tothe consumers the wineries, of
(53:36):
course and I also don't thinkit's fair to the readers and to
the consumers.
So that exists.
I think that in the case ofJames Suckling, for instance, I
don't think that's the case atall.
I think that proved quite a fewtimes that they don't have any
such preconceptions and thatthey're being fair with their
ratings.
But it's not the caseeverywhere, and I think that
(53:58):
it's important to keep that inmind and to know that, because
you know like not that Amichaiwould think this way, but if a
winemaker saw his wine getting,you know, 92 points, 90 points,
when he thinks that it should bea lot more higher than that,
and you don't feel bad aboutyourself because you're not the
(54:21):
problem here, politics and stufflike that are unfortunately
often part of the picture andhopefully we'll break those
barriers too just one lastquestion to the three of you.
Solomon Simon Jacob (54:39):
Actually, um, I have one more question.
I thought to amichai, but tothe three of you.
Is there a varietal issue withwhat would be rated at 100
points, like, can you get um apinot that would be rated at 100
, or does it have to be a cab?
Does it have to be bold androbust or does it not make a
(55:03):
difference?
Jay Buchsbaum (55:04):
Listen, cloveau Joe is a Pinot, okay, and it was
big and rich and flavorful, notas opulent and in your face,
but yeah, clove of Joe caneasily get you know some great
white red burgundies can easilybe of that richer, flavorful
category without being you knownot your face.
(55:25):
You're right, and yes, they canget hundreds, I think yeah.
Also, there's Barbarescos andBarolos and certainly Bordeaux's
, which are blends that easilycould and have gotten 100 points
.
Yes, there is a trend amongstsome of the American public not
some most American publicationsto give big 100 pointers to
(55:49):
California cabs, harlins, etc.
I will, by the way.
I just want to want to commentyou know wines that blew you
away.
You asked earlier I just want tocomment on this.
I mentioned some of the bigboys, but I got pretty close to
that and I don't know if anybodyagrees with me on this, but
everybody knows how I feel aboutthis.
On a lot of the alexandervalleys 94 well, you and I um
(56:14):
simon, yeah, 94 in 2004 and etc,etc.
That have been just wow, likecrazy.
And they're not that expensive40, 50 retail.
So it doesn't always have to bein something like, uh, you know
, clove or even a ponte canaecould be in something less
expensive too.
Solomon Simon Jacob (56:34):
A 94,.
I think it was the 94.
Jay Buchsbaum (56:40):
Alex or Chalk Hill.
Solomon Simon Jacob (56:42):
Chalk Hill, the 94 Chalk Hill, just I mean
it stays.
There's a few wines likePentecunet 03, but that one as
well also stays in my mind.
And there's also Katsrin 07.
That was also crazy, for me atleast.
So a bunch of them.
(57:03):
And plus 2007 that I openedAvamichai's Petit Syrah a few
years ago.
That also just totally blew meaway.
Gabriel Geller (57:19):
So okay, the 2006 and 2010,.
Actually Mosaic.
Yeah, it was very, very specialand also that's a different
story.
You know, before Amichai madeShiloh wine, he also made wines
at home and I had some of hisstory.
You know, before Amichai madeShiloh wine, he also made wines
at home and I had some of his2002, you know homemade wines
(57:43):
and they were incredible.
Jay Buchsbaum (57:46):
Really.
Gabriel Geller (57:47):
Yeah, really.
Jay Buchsbaum (57:47):
You still got any left.
Amichai Lourie (57:48):
Amichai Very few bottles.
Jay Buchsbaum (57:52):
Next time I come, are you going to pop one for me
?
Solomon Simon Jacob (57:54):
Next time we've got to get a bunch of us
together and go and do that,yeah, we'll make it happen.
Amichai Lourie (58:00):
Time to come visit.
Solomon Simon Jacob (58:01):
Amichai, speaking of visit, I just want
to bounce off of you.
You just opened your visitorcenter.
What's there for people to see?
Is it worth them coming out toShiloh?
That's a loaded question,because I've been there and I've
been there at an event and itwas amazing.
Amichai Lourie (58:25):
But please, I want to at least give you the
opportunity to talk about it.
So, the visitor center the ideawas when Meir Shomer started
the winery.
He said listen, we're going toinvest whatever we can to make
the best wines we can, butcomfort in a facility, in a
visitor center, that will waituntil after we make great wines
(58:46):
and unfortunately, you know, ittook many more years than we
expected but finally, for the2023 vintage, right before the
war, we moved into the newfacility.
We built this state-of-the-artwinery to make the best wines we
(59:06):
can.
You have to see it to even greatwinemakers and winery owners
see the place that we built whenit comes to efficiency and to
make the best wines we can.
We made it happen.
And also, baruch Hashem, webuilt a new visitor center.
(59:31):
You amazing ambience to enjoywine, overlooking the vineyards,
were right on top of thevineyards and also from the
visitor center you can actuallywalk on top in a special catwalk
on top, inside the barrel roomand inside the big room of all
(59:54):
the tanks and vats where weferment.
So you basically can feel,smell and hear everything that's
happening in the winery and inthe barrel room and also enjoy
wine in an amazing atmosphere.
Unfortunately, we opened up inthe worst time possible in the
(01:00:14):
history of Israel.
We moved in in August for the2023 vintage and before we were
supposed to open up the visitorcenter for Hanukkah in November,
but obviously on Simchat Torah,october 7th, everything changed
(01:00:34):
.
So it took us some time untilwe opened the visitor center and
even now, everything is likevery toned down the team at the
winery when the war started, wewere left two people to do the
work of 15.
Everybody in the army Even nowI have a lot of my staff are
(01:00:55):
still in the army.
Even now, I have a lot of mystaff are still in the army.
Solomon Simon Jacob (01:01:00):
Uh, one guy just came back today and uh, so
we're hoping he's gonna stay Ijust want to tell you though,
amichai, you're being verymodest because a few weeks ago,
ralpheb Dr Medeb had his son'sbar mitzvah in the winery in the
visitor center, and it wasabsolutely great, and he also—
(01:01:26):
I'll tell you something amazingabout that guy.
Amichai Lourie (01:01:28):
I have to interrupt you.
Solomon Simon Jacob (01:01:29):
Yeah, no, go ahead.
Amichai Lourie (01:01:31):
He insisted that we invite soldiers to his son's
bar mitzvah.
I think his guests were like 30, 40 people.
The whole event right.
Solomon Simon Jacob (01:01:44):
Yeah, because they couldn't get in.
Amichai Lourie (01:01:45):
They couldn't get in on the flights he said
could you invite a unit fromnearby that can come, from
nearby, that can come.
So we approached one unit thatwas stationed nearby for about
40 people and then at the lastminute they said they couldn't
come.
So we approached another unitnearby and most of them couldn't
(01:02:08):
.
And then there was one unitthat said, yeah, we're about to
exit, so they had like anoverlap.
I said, okay, they can come.
And then at the last minuteboth units came.
The other unit said, okay, youknow, I can come.
At the last minute he said,okay, you know, whoever Misha ba
ba ba ba.
So he like invited everybody.
(01:02:28):
So there were like twice asmuch soldiers than his guests
and it made the simcha was likeover the charts.
Solomon Simon Jacob (01:02:38):
It was.
It was off the charts.
Amichai Lourie (01:02:40):
There were more people.
There were twice as many peoplein uniform than with their guns
on them and everything you knowthan guests, and I think the
Simcha was like unbelievable, itwas amazing.
Solomon Simon Jacob (01:02:56):
So I just I wanted to say thank you very
much to each of you.
I know you guys are stillworking, some of us are.
It's already almost 8 o'clockat night, so we're about to well
, we're still working, but we'reabout to kick off from the
normal stuff.
But, thank you, thank you verymuch for all of you being on The
Kosher Terroir.
Todah, todah Rabbah.
Amichai Lourie (01:03:17):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for having us L'chaim.
Solomon Simon Jacob (01:03:21):
L'chaim tovim shalom.
Thank you so much.
It was a pleasure.
Bye-bye, bye, bye.
This is Simon Jacob, again yourhost of today's episode of The
Kosher Terroir.
I have a personal request.
(01:03:41):
No matter where you are orwhere you live, please take a
moment to pray for our soldiers'safety and the safe and rapid
return of our hostages.
Please subscribe via yourpodcast provider to be informed
of our new episodes as they arereleased.
If you're new to The KosherTerroir, please check out our
(01:04:02):
many past episodes.
Welcome to The Kosher Terrior.
I'm Simon Jacob, your host forthis episode from Jerusalem.
Before we get started, I askthat, wherever you are, please
take a moment and pray for thesafety of our soldiers and the
safe return of all of ourhostages.
Welcome back to the KosherTerroir.
(00:30):
Today we're starting with atrilogy of wines emerging from
the cellars of Shiloh Wineriestheir new legend series named
Itai, Adino and Ira.
And they're not just specialreleases.
They're a declaration of intentin our discussions with Amichai
Lourie, Shiloh's visionarywinemaker.
(00:53):
He isn't just craftingexpressive, age-worthy wines
these days.
He's actually aiming forsomething even more audacious
Israel's first 100-point wine.
But what does it really take tocreate a perfect wine?
Is it the grapes, the place,the hand of the winemaker or the
(01:16):
palate of the critics?
To help us explore that veryquestion, I'm joined by two of
the kosher wine world's mosttrusted and influential voices
Gabriel Geller, the Director ofPublic Relations and Wine
Education Manager at Royal Wine,and Jay Buchsbaum, vice
President of Marketing andDirector of Consumer Education
(01:38):
for Royal.
Together, we'll all tastethrough the New Legends series,
discussing each of theirspecific nuances and market
focus, and debate what makes awine world-class and ask Can
Israel make a wine that belongsin the same breath as Bordeaux's
first growths or Napa's cultclassics.
(02:02):
Whether you're a collector, acasual sipper or a believer in
the power of possibility, thisepisode is for you.
If you're driving in your car,please focus on the road ahead.
If you're sitting at home, pouryourself a glass of wonderful
kosher wine.
Sit back and listen to thisepisode of the Kosher Jirir, as
(02:23):
today we Tell us about thevision behind the new legend
series, Itai, Adino, and Ira,and what inspired their creation
.
are not just tasting wines,we're chasing legends.
First of all, welcome to TheKosher Terroir.
Amichai.
Amichai Lourie (02:42):
So I think that making great wine is important
but, also, you need a good labeland I wasn't ever 100% happy
with the previous labels that wehad for the Legend series and
for the theme legend series andfor the theme and uh, since, uh,
(03:05):
the 2021 vintage of the legendwas sold very, very quickly and
was sold out and then on theShemitah year of 2022, we didn't
make any legend at all, so fora long time this was out of the
market.
So we said it's an opportunityto um to make a new label and a
(03:27):
new theme for the, for thelegend series, and because on
the 2021 vintage we made a newblend and we didn't even label
it when we bottled it, becausewe didn't know what the new
theme would be and what we'redoing, know what the new theme
would be and what we're doing.
And then we came up with theidea to use the heroes of David
(03:50):
HaMelech.
King David had, or it's listedin Devar, hayamim and in Shmuel,
etc.
The heroes that surrounded him,him and a lot of the.
There are also agadot andmidrashim about some of these
heroes.
(04:10):
So he said you know, it mightbe a great opportunity to use
the theme of the heroes of DavidHaMelech for the legend series.
I also very much like the ideaof safra v'saifa.
(04:31):
That means that you also learn,but also, when you have to, you
also use your strength.
And Chazal speak a lot aboutour great heroes over the
(04:56):
centuries.
That were great leaders.
They weren't only leaders inTorah, but they were also
leaders in the battlefield whennecessary.
And that's the idea.
This is what we decided to do.
Solomon Simon Jacob (05:08):
How did the wines reflect Shiloh's
evolution as a winery and yourpersonal growth as a winemaker?
Amichai Lourie (05:16):
Well, we try to do things a little bit different
.
Like the legend, adino, whichused to be called the Legend
Fiddler, is a unique blend andwhen we started doing it, I
think there was nobody else inthe world that actually blended
(05:36):
Petit Syrah, petit Verdun andShiraz and it turned out to be a
major big hit.
And it turned out to be a majorbig hit and showing that we can
do something that's different,and we were looking for
something very big, powerful,very fruity wine and something
(05:59):
that you don't even have to putyour nose in the glass.
The aromas come to you, andthat's how it started.
And then it evolved and we didanother legend that used to be
called Legend Rony and now it'scalled Legend Ditaille, of
Cabernet Sauvignon, cabernetFranc and Malbec.
(06:21):
And if we're talking about howthings progress, then we wanted
to do a unique wine andsomething different than most of
the wines that we make in thewinery and we made a blend that
started as a Granada Sirah inBarbera and then, right before
(06:43):
bottling, we decided to add somecarinian and it turned out to
be so good that we actually putit back in barrels for another
couple of months before bottlingand I think we came up with
something very different,showing that a wine doesn't have
(07:05):
to be heavy and big andpowerful to be interesting.
A wine can be a lighter wine,but very complex and very
interesting, and that's how thelegend Ira came to life.
Solomon Simon Jacob (07:21):
I'd like to ask just one more question
before we do the tasting.
I'd like to ask just one morequestion before we do the
tasting Was there a consciouseffort to?
Amichai Lourie (07:32):
craft each of these wines for different
audiences or different occasions.
So this gradually happened overthe years.
It started as powerful wine andthen we wanted to look for
(07:54):
something a little bit moreelegant and more complex of
years later we came up with ablend of the wine of the
Cabernet Sauvignon, cabernetFranc and Malbec, especially
because the Cabernet Franc hasbeen getting better and better
in our vineyards and we thoughta blend that had the Cabernet
(08:17):
Franc in it would be a verycomplex and interesting wine.
And then it evolved to tryingto do something really different
and showing that a wine can belight but very interesting and
complex.
I think I've been tasting andtrying to make a Pinot Noir and
(08:42):
I think that's where I got tothat trying to make something
that's yet much lighter but veryinteresting.
So that's what pushed metowards making this kind of
blend.
By the way, we just bottled ourfirst Pinot Noir.
Solomon Simon Jacob (08:58):
Mazaltov, and I tasted it already.
So I'm very much lookingforward to what the bottle is
like.
So thank you for letting metaste it.
Let's pull in the experts.
Gabriel Jay, can you taste thewines?
Can we go through them?
I guess we should taste them inorder Itai first, then Adino
(09:21):
and then I think Amichai shoulddecide what the order should be.
Gabriel Geller (09:24):
What's the orderai?
First, then Adino, and then Ithink Amichai should decide yeah
, the order should be.
Solomon Simon Jacob (09:25):
What's the order, Amichai?
Amichai Lourie (09:27):
Well, I think, because the lightest is the Ira,
then maybe we should, andbecause it's the newest wine, so
maybe we can start from there.
Good, by the way, there's alsodifferent vintages, like the Ira
is the 2021, and the Adu andYitair 2023, by the way, so
(09:47):
maybe starting with the Yerahmight be the best.
Jay Buchsbaum (09:51):
But you know, I mean, I see this almost
everywhere these days, theinclusion of Syrah and blends
from Israel, and I think it'sbecause of the richness of it.
So, even though you're tellingme that, if we're going to get
into heavier than this, then I'mcurious as to the fact that you
(10:14):
have this Syrah in here.
Solomon Simon Jacob (10:16):
Doesn't that give it heft?
Jay Buchsbaum (10:17):
Doesn't that give it spiciness?
Doesn't that give this bigflavors?
I don't know.
I'm going to taste it now.
Amichai Lourie (10:23):
I think the Syrah that I used for this wine,
this specific vineyard that weused in this wine, is, I would
say, a spicier, lighter Syrah,much more.
There's no black.
(10:44):
A Syrah will a lot of timeshave black fruit in it and here
it's, I'd say, spice and redfruit, and I think you can even
this sirah you can even if youlook for it or if you have the
bottle open for a couple ofhours, you'll actually get even
notes of black pepper, andthat's why I use this specific
(11:09):
Syrah for this wine.
Actually, the Syrah that's inthe Iadino is a completely
different vineyard and much moreblack fruit and riper fruit
than this, uh, the sirah in thiswine.
Jay Buchsbaum (11:26):
I think it's fascinating go ahead I think
it's fascinating that that andthis is a good lesson for all of
us that you have precisely thesame grape.
By the way, you see this initaly a lot.
You see this in other areas,where precisely the same grape
sangiovese, barbera or whatevercan be totally different
(11:48):
depending on how it's made andcertainly depending on where it
comes from.
So this is a great example ofthat.
I find this wine to beextremely complex.
You can actually identifydifferent flavor profiles as you
drink it.
And you're right, I think it'smedium-bodied, I think it's got
some tannins on the gums, butit's not oh, you know, it's not
(12:11):
a blockbuster.
Gabriel Geller (12:13):
Yeah, it's a wine that can and should be
enjoyed now, even though itshould go for quite a number of
years.
I mean, we know Amichai, weknow the Shiloh wines.
They have a track record ofaging nicely for a pretty
(12:36):
extended amount of time,especially compared to most
Israeli wines.
And I agree, it's medium-bodied, very approachable.
Red fruit, spice herbs as well.
You get some nice acidity, Iimagine, from the barbara, from
the carnage as well.
Red fruit definitely moredominant.
There's some black fruit too,but I would say that the red
(12:58):
fruit is more….
Solomon Simon Jacob (12:59):
The red fruit is more pronounced.
Amichai Lourie (13:01):
Really nice.
You know, when somebody asks me, you know sometimes people ask
me okay, what do you pair withthis wine?
You're a foodie, you like toeat.
What do you pair with the Yirahwine?
I say the perfect pairing forthe Yirah wine is my wife.
I mean, it's not what you'reeating with it, it's who you're
(13:25):
drinking with it.
Right, I mean, this is a winethat you pair with a good friend
.
It's a wine that you pair withyour spouse.
It doesn't need food.
So sometimes the perfectpairing is who you drink it with
and not what you drink it withright, very nice and also I see
(13:54):
that it's, uh, the the only wineout of the three wines did not
be Mavushal.
Is that a strategic decision?
Some blind tests for the pastcouple of years, testing
Mavushal, non-mavushal, of olderwines and of wines that we're
actually about to bottle, winesthat we just bottled, et cetera.
And he makes it reallychallenging.
(14:15):
So he'll put three glasses infront of me.
I don't know if two areMavushal and one isn't, or the
other way around, if I can tellthem apart, which one I think is
better.
And I can say that still,sometimes I'll pick even the
Mavushal wine as better andsometimes I can't tell the
difference.
(14:41):
But there's something in thiswine that I didn't want to take
any chances that the Mavushalprocess would change it, and
that's the special spice thatyou get in this wine, especially
if you leave it open for acouple of days.
We were planning to do thisZoom recording.
Two days ago I opened the wine.
Then we already finished halfof the bottles here, but I left
them open and I'm tasting thewines that opened two days ago.
(15:05):
Okay, and I can still.
Once I opened it, you get alittle bit.
You have to look for the spiceand for the black pepper for
some of it, especially the blackpepper and the spice, but after
opening for two days it'sreally there.
Solomon Simon Jacob (15:19):
It's really pronounced.
I did the same thing and I'm,I'm, and I'm getting that.
When you said black pepper, Iwent wow, yes, 100 percent yeah,
nice long finish.
Amichai Lourie (15:31):
Okay, well and nice long finish.
Even though it's not a heavywine, it still has a long finish
and the flavor stay in yourmouth and that's why I say you
don't need any food with this.
It's's almost like a ShalehShudis wine.
You know what I mean the winethat helps you leave Shabbos
gradually.
Jay Buchsbaum (15:52):
I might even suggest that this be slightly
chilled.
When I say slightly chilled, Idon't mean refrigerated, I mean
cool, like you would perhapswith a Beaujolais 100% Cellar
temperature like 60 wouldperhaps with a Beaujolais A
hundred percent.
Amichai Lourie (16:08):
Cellar temperature like 60 degrees,
right like 14 to 16 Celsius.
I agree a hundred percent.
I have a friend that got acouple of cases of this after
tasting the wine.
And then he calls me up acouple of weeks ago, mosei
Shabbat, and he says you know,you said to me it's a good wine
(16:29):
for Sardash Lishit.
Since I started drinking thiswine in Sardash Lishit I exit
Shabbos like Rabbeinu Tam Givesit another that extra.
Jay Buchsbaum (16:41):
That 61 degrees is 16 Celsius.
Solomon Simon Jacob (16:44):
Yeah, I agree, agree okay, which is the
next one?
Jay Buchsbaum (16:49):
and then you know , I also I've done this before
from my own cellar, which is,you know, somewhere in the high
50s, about 60 and um, and I'vedone this before.
It's, it's on reds, you.
You take it out the first sipis really cool, and then, as it
warms up, it gets even.
I mean, it just got this greatevolution.
(17:12):
If it's meant to be that way,it really does.
Amichai Lourie (17:17):
You enjoy the change in the wine too when you
do it that way.
That's why I do it a lot.
Solomon Simon Jacob (17:22):
And also, as it warms up, the aromas and
the flavors start to really comeout of it as well, in a very
nice way, especially thearomatics.
Yeah, the aromatics, that'swhat I'm looking for.
Okay, what's next?
Amichai Lourie (17:35):
The next wine is Legend Itai Cabernet Sauvignon,
Cabernet Franc and Malbec.
Like you said, Merlot growsjust a little bit different in
the Chilo region, I thinkCabernet Franc you can say the
same, and Cabernet Franc is lessgreen but gives it a lot of
(18:01):
power to it and makes it a verybig, complex wine.
It's called Legend Itai, ifwe're talking about the theme of
the heroes of David HaMelech.
So Itai was from Bnei Binyaminand they were known to be not
(18:24):
just scholars but also verywarriors, right the Binyamin
tribe.
But it wasn't just war.
You know the Rashi Tevot ofItay.
Itay is Eretz Yisrael, TorahYisrael, and if you want to win
(18:46):
Eretz Yisrael, it's not just bybeing a warrior, it's also by
using Torah Yisrael.
So that's the Rashi Tevot ofthe Yitai.
Gabriel Geller (18:58):
I have to say that the Cabernet is pretty
obvious on the nose, especiallythe Cabernet Franc with the
green pepper, definitelydistinctive.
Amichai Lourie (19:09):
You know the green comes more from the
Cabernet Sauvignon than theCabernet Franc.
That means I know where it camefrom.
Okay, the.
Cabernet Sauvignon in here isgreener than the Cabernet Franc.
I think the Cabernet Franc heregives a lot to the mint palate
and I think the mint palate hereis really impressive.
(19:31):
And uh, you know, I've I've thepast couple of years I always
look for the wine to be round,with no rough edges.
That means I I look for alsowines like that.
Sometimes you want a winethat's really powerful, you want
(19:54):
it to cut right through thesteak and whatever, but
sometimes you're looking forsomething for it to be round, a
big mid palette, a lot of flavor, and I think this is a perfect
example to, like some people saylisten, it's like the mosaic,
but maybe dial it down just alittle bit.
Jay Buchsbaum (20:14):
You know it's like I was going to say I find
almost a bit of creaminess to ityeah you know that that speaks
to your roundness that you speakof.
I really find a bit ofcreaminess to this, a bit of, um
, not in your face, opul ofnot-in-your-face opulence, if
you will.
You know, not-in-your-facebeing the adjective modifying
(20:35):
opulence in this case.
So exactly what I mean, kind ofalong the lines of what you
just said about you know, alower volume mosaic, if you will
.
You know, a lower volume mosaic, I'm telling you it's got a
richness to it, it's got lots offruit, without being like
knocking you over the head witha two-by-four in fruit, without
(20:57):
that, you know, yeah.
Amichai Lourie (21:00):
It has like the quality of a really, really good
chocolate you know every nowand then you get a really really
good chocolate, that kind offlavor to it.
Solomon Simon Jacob (21:15):
I liked it yesterday, not yesterday, two
days ago when I tasted it but Ireally like it now.
Honestly, being open for acouple of days, it's really
developed, so something to lookforward to.
Amichai Lourie (21:30):
You know, many, many years ago I used to go to
Eli Ben-Zaken from Castel andI'd get a couple of cases from
him personally and I rememberfor a couple of times my wife
and I would go there and for acouple of times my wife and I
would go there and she wouldtake us through the wine that he
(21:53):
is selling, but they take usthrough it.
This was opened up yesterday,this was two days ago, five days
ago, six days ago we do like aflight of the same wine that we
just bought, but a couple ofdays back.
And so I learned this from himI don't know, like maybe 20
years ago, something like thatand since then I do it a lot and
(22:19):
I open up.
We open up most of our Shabboswines Thursday night already and
we usually try to open upenough to last us also for
Sunday.
So you enjoy the the wine in adifferent way when you enjoy it
gradually, like that thedevelopment was trying.
(22:40):
I always recommend it.
It's a big, fruity, powerfulwine, perfect for pairing, for
steak, for lamb, for the goodstuff.
(23:02):
It has the acidity, it has thefruit and it's a perfect pairing
.
It's a perfect food wine.
Jay Buchsbaum (23:15):
What I find so obvious immediately is the color
Color is.
You know.
I have this thing where I teachpeople.
If you look down into thecenter of your glass, one of the
ways you look at color is tosee.
If you look down into thecenter of your glass, one of the
ways you look at color is tosee if you can see your fingers
from the top.
You know, look straight downand see if you can see your
(23:37):
fingers.
If you can see your fingers,depending on how much of a you
know, how much visual you get isdepending on how intense you
can describe the color.
This is like black in the center, almost very dark purple and
yeah, and I think I think evenbefore, and then I did it to the
(23:57):
nose and I go through thatprocess sight, smell and then,
of course, flavors.
But the nose follows throughwith, you know, this big opulent
aromatics.
Really, if you look at the legs, even it's got.
I mean, what is the alcohol on?
Amichai Lourie (24:17):
this I do know it's 14 and a half, 14 and a
half yeah 14 and a half, but wejust tasted three wines and I
think the alcohol is very wellintegrated into these wines.
Jay Buchsbaum (24:29):
Wow, you know what I call this.
Amichai Lourie (24:33):
I call this a lip smacker.
That's what I said.
You need the right kind of foodfor this.
Jay Buchsbaum (24:37):
No, but it's so deliciously fruity.
It's so you.
In that respect.
One of the reasons why Amichai,your wine, score Shiloh scores
the way they do, is because ofthis flavor, this flavor
profiles that people so muchenjoy that I don't know of
(25:00):
another winery that does it asconsistently as you do.
It's so friendly, it's so tastyand it's so lip-sm so tasty and
it's so lip smacking.
On and on and on throughoutpretty much all of your wines.
I think that's what gets youthose people critics, consumers,
(25:20):
etc.
They pick it up and they go boy, I really like this wine.
And then they give it thescores that they give it.
Amichai Lourie (25:25):
You know it's a lot of hard.
The most shilo of the threewines that they give it, you
know?
Gabriel Geller (25:28):
Yeah, I think this is a lot of hard.
The most Shiloh of the threewines, right, the most you know,
representative as a whole.
I wanted to say before that theYitai it's you know.
People say, oh, you know,shiloh wines are so bold and
fruitful, et cetera, which isnot untrue, but they're not all
(25:53):
the same.
And the Ita is definitelystanding there as more
restrained, more old-born Iwould say in style, more
old-born I would say in style,and the Adino is more of that
Shilo style that people talkabout, but it has.
Amichai Lourie (26:20):
Again, it's also distinctive.
I think the challenge in makingwine consistent is very
important.
I mean, if people buy wine,they want the next year to be
just as good, more of the same.
You know you like what'sfamiliar, but it's also, first
of all, for me it's a challengeto also make different wines,
also for a different audience.
(26:41):
You know Other people likeother wines, so let's make some
things that are a little bitdifferent.
And like the Barbera that wemake every year, that's very
unique.
Like the Legendira, that'sdifferent and unique.
So looking for things that are alittle bit different, I think
(27:04):
first of all it keeps it moreinteresting for me as a
winemaker to also do things thatare a little bit different for
other audiences and for otheroccasions.
And the challenge is alwaysthere to try and do also
something different, not more ofthe same.
So I think this reallyrepresents three completely
(27:26):
different wines in the sameseries, so everybody can find
something that he likes.
You know I always recommend,like I said, I recommend people
open up your wines for Shabbat,open them up Thursday night and
see how they are on Thursday,friday, on Shabbos, mose,
shabbos, sunday, and then yousee how the wines evolve.
(27:48):
But also sometimes it's veryinteresting to put in front of
you two or three glasses of wineand drink while you're eating
especially a long meal, like onShabbos Instead of having only
one kind of wine or one glassand changing different wines,
have in front of you two orthree different wines and bounce
(28:09):
back and forth while you'reeating between the different
wines, and that way you can.
Everything is much better, thefood is much better, the wine is
much better and the experienceis much more fun that way.
Solomon Simon Jacob (28:23):
You know, amichai.
You talked to us about thelabel design and the branding.
What story are you trying totell visually with the label?
Amichai Lourie (28:33):
We're waiting for Mashiach ben David or we're
working on Mashiach ben David,and I think showing and talking
about David HaMelech is timeswhat we're going through, I mean
(28:54):
not just now during the war,but in general Talking about
David Amelech.
I think is important Talkingwhat David Amelech stands for,
where he came from and wherewe're going, and understanding
that David HaMelech had heroesthat were very big in Torah and
(29:21):
Kehuna.
Ira was a Kohen and a scholar.
Everybody learned and fought.
The Gemara talks about Adino.
Why was this hero called Adino?
Adino is, as in delicate, youknow, soft.
So the Gemara says why was hecalled Adino?
(29:44):
Ha'etzin?
That was his name.
So the Gemara says that in theMidrash says that when he was in
the Bet Midrash, when he waslearning, he was flexible and
delicate adino, but when he hadto go fight, then he was aetzni.
(30:04):
He was very strong, like toughwood, very strong like tough
wood.
And I think that it's importantthat we understand that maybe
this is what we're supposed tobe.
We're supposed to be safav'saifa.
We're supposed to be verystrong, learning and
(30:31):
understanding where we came from, but also understand that our
strength comes from our historyand from the Torah.
The strength doesn't come justfrom strength alone.
Itai is Eretz Yisrael, torahYisrael.
You're not just Torah Yisrael,you're also Eretz Yisrael, torat
Yisrael.
You're not just Torat Yisrael,you're also Eretz Yisrael, and
(30:52):
you're also a hero, and you knowhow to hold your sword.
And we're all praying that theday will come that we'll use the
swords not for war but forplowing right, I don't know.
The Basuk of the Basuk says,actually tells us that we're
(31:21):
going to use those tools that weuse for war.
We will use them foragriculture in Eretz Yisrael.
That would be used in the vines, in the vineyards.
So it's really understandingthat.
Jay Buchsbaum (31:43):
Yeah, if I may, I remember as a kid demonstrating
in front of the UN at DagHammarskjöld Plaza, and there's
a saying demonstrating in frontof the un at god hummus old
plaza, and there'sa is it sayingit's from, it's from the
hillary, you'll beat your swordsinto plowshares right what
challenges did you face whenproducing the legend series, and
(32:03):
was there a moment you thoughtit might not come together?
Amichai Lourie (32:09):
um, well, because it slowly creeped up on
me, so I always knew it wasworking and it would be okay.
I didn't have any doubt.
The only thing that didn'treally happen as we expected is
when we bottled the Legend ofIrak.
It was right before the warstarted.
(32:32):
2021, it is right before and,uh, we didn't get a chance
because of the war, we didn'tget a chance to brand and
relabel and everything.
So it took a couple of yearsfor us to uh finally introduce
it into the market.
So it didn't really happen aswe planned.
I think that the past two yearshave been very challenging, to
(33:00):
say the least, but, like Gabesaid, you know I don't have to
worry because our wines age well.
So if it takes a couple ofyears until we finally label it,
a bottle age well.
So if it takes a couple ofyears until we finally label it
in a bottle, it's.
You know, patience is somethingthat you learn when you work,
when you make wine and when youwork in agriculture and edit
society.
You need a lot of patience andyou need a lot of faith.
(33:22):
It was worth waiting for.
Solomon Simon Jacob (33:28):
Amichai, I want to move on a little bit
onto the concept that you'retrying to create the first
100-point wine from Israel.
Amichai Lourie (33:40):
I think I can imagine that a lot of people are
working on that, A lot ofpeople are trying to do that.
Solomon Simon Jacob (33:47):
I don't think with the energy that
you're doing it.
Amichai Lourie (33:51):
Well, you're right, I've been putting in a
lot of energy into trying to dothis in the past 10 years.
I don't know if Jay remembers,but he was at the winery when I
had him taste a few barreltastings of things that I was
trying to get there and stilldidn't get there.
(34:11):
And I remember asking Jay andJay said to me first you have to
understand especially thatyou're more new world than old
world, that it has to be a foodbomb off the charts.
It's not just complexity, ithas to also be there.
You have to have something thatcan carry that fruit for a long
(34:33):
time.
And then I remember speaking toGabe about wines like this and
you recommended I don't remember, I don't know if you remember
Gabe must have been like 10years ago maybe and said to me
Amichai, it's about time you goto Napa and go taste those wines
that are getting 100 points.
(34:54):
And I actually did that abouteight years ago I think it was
maybe nine years ago, somethinglike that.
I actually took a tour.
I went to Napa and I hadsomebody take me into the back
door.
That means I didn't go into thevisitor center, I went in back
(35:14):
and met the winemakers that makethese wines that are 100 points
, and actually tasted a lot ofthem and I have to admit that I
came back to Israel moreconfused than when I went there.
And it's been a long journeyand I've been doing a lot, a lot
(35:38):
of hard work in the vineyards,a lot of hard work in the winery
.
Almost every year I've beenscratching the results, you know
tasting, letting it age,different options, different
things, and then saying almostNot there, but almost there.
(35:58):
We even have a code at thewinery that certain barrels that
we feel that we're gettingclose, so we started calling it
98, not 100, 98, because we'reworking on it.
It's a work in progress and thefirst year that I said… you
(36:20):
showed me that barrel.
I showed you the barrels thatsay 198, right, we still have
those, we're still working onthem.
But in the 2019 vintage was thefirst time that I said I think
I nailed it and we did a lot, alot of hard effort of the
blending and really separatingthe men from the boys, Since we
(36:44):
also invested in a lot of reallyhigh quality barrels for these
wines Very, very unique andexpensive barrels for it Once we
felt that we had the right wine, and from the 2019 vintage, we
bottled about 4,000 bottles.
And then again 2020, that, inmy opinion, was one of the best
(37:10):
years for us in Israel and webottled again close to 4,000
bottles of a wine like this.
Unfortunately, 21, 22,.
We tried but we felt that wedidn't get there, so it was
already blended into other wines.
Get there.
(37:34):
So it was already blended intoother wines and we hope for 2023
and maybe 2024 that we'll beable to try it again.
In the meantime, we bottled itand we didn't label it, and
we've been tasting it, tested itwith Motti Herzog both Mottis,
California and New York not along time ago and hopefully next
(37:54):
time you come around, you'll beable to taste it with us.
Simon, I think you tasted oneof the flights that we did right
, yes.
I think we're very close, veryclose Okay.
Solomon Simon Jacob (38:10):
Gabriel, I want to ask you a question.
When you hear 100-point wine,what does it signify to you
personally, both as a critic anda wine lover?
Gabriel Geller (38:22):
It's a great question.
So a couple of weeks ago, Jayand I were at the James Suckling
Great Wines Award event in NewYork.
The James Suckling Great WinesAward event in New York, which
is one of the most prestigiouswine tastings in the world, and
(38:48):
all the wines there from allover the world.
There was one winery fromIsrael for the very first time
Audemont.
Audemont, and there are many ofthe greatest Italian, spanish,
french Napa wineries, very greatnames, and there are over 250
wines there.
It's kind of overwhelmingbecause you're like, wow, those
(39:12):
are like some of the very bestwines in the world from some of
the most prestigious wineries.
But you cannot taste them all.
You know it's impossible,there's no time to get through
even you know part of it.
So you have to strategize.
And I go to such tastingspretty frequently and I was
(39:39):
thinking to myself.
I was looking at the list ofthe wines and it said next to
each wine what's the JamesSucking rating?
And I was like you know, it'sfunny, at any of those tastings
I never thought of prioritizingthe wines that I should taste
based on the rating and I waslike I see there is a number of
(40:01):
100 points wines, let's go tastethose you know, see what it's
all about.
And I tasted four or fivedifferent wines from different
regions and countries with 100points ratings from James
Sucklin and I must say that inmy personal opinion, none of
(40:24):
these 100-point wines werebetter than some of the best
wines that I've tasted at theevent.
So I was like they're very goodwines for sure.
Why did he rate them 100 points.
I don't know.
I cannot honestly say that inmy personal experience and
(40:47):
opinion, I find these wines tobe better, to be worthy of a
higher rating than those others.
So I think that it's a verypersonal thing and, you know,
100 points means perfection.
I do not think that such athing, you know… it's possible.
(41:07):
It's like you know they havebuilt, it's like people.
You know.
There's no such thing asperfect.
It doesn't exist.
And I think that we have toremember also that it's not just
about personal taste.
It's also about tasting in themoment who you're tasting with,
(41:28):
where are you tasting, whathappened during the day?
You know when you tasted thewine, what's your mood, what's
the weather outside, how longthe bells have been up, and
there are so many differentfactors and the exact same wine
that one wine critic might rate95 points today.
(41:49):
If he tasted that same winetomorrow or next week, the
rating could be different.
It would likely be different,and so I think that's a specific
, you know.
I think that the differencebetween a 98 point that's why I
like that.
Amichai Lourie (42:08):
That's why we call it 98.
You know there's.
Gabriel Geller (42:14):
No, it's not significant.
It's not significant.
But when you go to 95 or 97, 92or 94, 98 or 100, it's pretty
much the same thing.
So it's more about the personaltaste of whoever tasted the
wine and whatever other externalfactors came into play.
(42:38):
But yeah, you can assume thatsomeone who rates a wine 100
points is in good mood, nomatter which one it is.
Amichai Lourie (42:45):
That's why we're calling it 98.
In the meantime, you know aninternal what we call 98?
Because we want to get as closeto perfect as possible.
You know, I tasted the Yisodwines from Herzog a couple of
times and I don't remember whichof them, but one of them that I
(43:06):
tasted I said to myself wow,this is as close to perfect as
can be.
There was something aboutthere's nothing missing.
You know, maybe I'm notdescribing.
You know, sometimes I think ofwine differently, but in my head
(43:27):
it's like as close to perfectas it can be and everything that
I want in a wine is there,Nothing's missing.
So that's what I'm looking for.
Maybe I'm not.
This is the way I'm describingthat.
100 point or as close topossible.
(43:48):
Everything I want in a wine isthere Everything, Nothing's
missing.
Can it be better?
Maybe, Like you said, nobody'sperfect.
There's always another layer,but it has to be as close to
perfect as can be and that'swhat we're working on.
Solomon Simon Jacob (44:08):
Jay, I have a question for you, as well as
this question that everybody'sanswering, but I have from your
perspective, specifically from amarketing or industry
perspective how powerful is the100-point designation in shaping
perception in sales?
Jay Buchsbaum (44:29):
Gone, baby gone.
I'll never forget.
As a much younger man, Irepresented non-kosher, some
non-kosher wines, talking about,I don't know, 35, 40 years ago,
and I I started, of course, at12.
That's why obviously the newyork times wrote up one of the
(44:50):
wines that I represented wascalled lytton springs Infandel
and it was made from 70-year-oldvines and et cetera, et cetera,
and literally the next day,within a day, it was all sold
out.
Now it wasn't thousands ofcases, but yeah, it's gone, baby
gone.
I will say there is, you knowwhen, done right.
(45:10):
I think the Wine Spectator doesit right and some others do it
right.
I was for three years in a row,maybe four, I don't remember I
was asked to be a taster at theTerra Vino and in those days it
was managed by OIV, theorganization of Inoteca and
Vinoteca, which is aninternational organization that
(45:31):
every single wine growing regionin the world belongs to, except
one, the us.
The us is not signed on to oiv,but they actually have a
hundred point score on a sheetthat gives every component.
So, for example, aroma is,let's say, 16 points.
(45:51):
So that has to be perfect.
And even within aroma there'sthey still do it like that has
to be perfect.
And even within aroma there'slike they still do it like that.
By the way, there's threedifferent breakdowns, you know
so when.
So, when Amichai talks about youknow nothing missing what he
what, at least to me, it'ssaying is that every single
component and every single subcomponent, you know, will that
(46:13):
give you the pleasure?
Every single subcomponent, youknow, will that give you the
pleasure?
I'm not sure, but you know thatyou get just from drinking the
wine with your loved one, likeyour wife, as Amichai pointed
out earlier.
I don't know, but I will tellyou that you know, the color has
to be perfect, and you know.
And the aroma has to be perfecton three different levels
Initial, you know.
(46:34):
Tertiary, blah, blah, blah, andeach one if you can score them
at the highest points, for eachone, you end up with a hundred
point score.
I think that's the and I thinkit's very real.
You know it's very technicaland it's not.
Oh my gosh, this is sowonderful.
Although that's part of it, itreally is, I mean, if done right
.
I think it wonderful.
(46:54):
Although that's part of it, itreally is.
I mean, if done right, I thinkit can be meaningful, not just
from a marketing point of view,like you just asked me, but also
from a real point of view.
Solomon Simon Jacob (47:04):
So the question leads to the next thing
Do you think that 100-pointkosher wine would break into the
more mainstream retail spaces?
Jay Buchsbaum (47:16):
Oh, there's no doubt about it.
As a matter of fact, it alreadyhappened once I don't know if
you remember this Many, manyyears ago, our good friend from
Ganyton Wines had the bestCabernet in California, best
(47:41):
Cabernet in California, the bestCabernet I think it was 90,
could have been 96.
I'm not sure, but it wasliterally the best and it was in
the Wine Spectator as the bestwine, best Cabernet ever.
And, yeah, he crossed over.
He completely sold outimmediately.
I think what's more importantthan whether it can cross over
or not is, specifically, when itcomes to getting 100.1 for
(48:01):
Israel.
It'll tell you, it'll tell theconsumer, that Israel has
arrived, which is everythingthat the IWPA is trying to do.
More importantly than I hate tosay this, amichai, more
importantly than you benefit,benefiting alone, personally, it
will literally, you know, bringattention to the whole israeli.
(48:23):
You know thing of making goodwines.
You know, you don't see, I'venever and I don't think we'll
ever see a hundred point winefrom bulgaria, even though they
make some great wines, or fromCyprus or from Hungary or from.
I don't think so, but I haven'tseen it.
(48:46):
I don't recall ever seeing it.
And I think we can do it fromIsrael.
And if we do it from Israel,it's going to transform
perception of Israel, moreimportantly, not only to the
general consumer, but to thebuyers and retailers and
restaurants.
Wow, israel, you know what Ibetter look at?
(49:07):
You know some wine by the glassfrom Israel.
If they can make a hundredpoint wine, they can make a good
wine by the glass wine which is20 bucks or $30 or whatever.
That's where I think he askedme about marketing.
That's where I think the impactof marketing will be greater
than anywhere else.
Solomon Simon Jacob (49:25):
Gabriel question have you ever tasted a
wine that you felt should havegotten 100 points but didn't?
Gabriel Geller (49:32):
No, because, again, to go back to what I was
saying before, I don't think youcan get to 100 points.
So have I tasted wines that gota low rating, low-ish rating,
(49:52):
that I thought should havegotten a much higher rating?
Of course, many times.
Solomon Simon Jacob (49:57):
Is there a wine you ever tasted that left
you speechless, that left youlike wow?
Gabriel Geller (50:05):
Yeah, a few, a few, Obviously the Pentecane
2003.
Jay Buchsbaum (50:11):
There, you go.
Solomon Simon Jacob (50:16):
You know where?
You've got at least threelovers on here of Ponte Cane
2003.
Jay Buchsbaum (50:20):
No, but I think the Cloveau show, that older
Cloveau show, remember that one,yep.
Solomon Simon Jacob (50:26):
Yeah.
Jay Buchsbaum (50:26):
It was pretty amazing and I know I'm going to
get petched for this, but Ithink there was a Katsurin 96
that just blew me away 96Katzrin.
Gabriel Geller (50:39):
To give a concrete example on this topic,
and it's upsetting because it'snot just about can it get that
rating or not, it's more aboutthat.
Unfortunately, there's politicsinvolved in some cases, and I'm
not going to name thepublication that is responsible
for that.
(51:00):
But nine years ago now, almostnine years ago, jay and I had a
lunch together with a veryprestigious publication,
together with Gilad Flam fromFlam Winery, of course, and the
wines were great, they'refantastic, and the guy from the
(51:23):
publication was like ravingabout them.
And then a few weeks or a fewmonths later, they published the
ratings for those wines andthey were very disappointing to
say the least.
Like 87, 88, 89, the ratingsfor those wines, and they were
very disappointing, to say theleast, like 87, 88, something
like that, 89.
Like the way it was ratingabout it.
You're like, wow, I really lovethis.
(51:43):
It's going to give it 93 or 94or something like that, maybe
more 87, 88.
And we're like, what the heck?
And it's a publication thatconsistently, you know, first of
all, they don't publish veryoften uh, it's changed for the
better, but historically they'renot publishing a lot of ratings
(52:04):
for israeli wines.
But when they were the ratingsyou know you had here there are
90 points and 91, uh and uh, itdidn't go much higher than that.
And a few years ago I I was in ameeting with someone who's
really in the know, an insider,and that person told me that
(52:27):
that publication has it's apolicy by them where they
decided that Israel as a wideregion has not yet crossed the
threshold, where, where theydecided that Israel as a wine
region, has not yet crossed thethreshold where they could get a
rating higher than 93.
So even if you make the bestpossible wine, a wine that would
(52:48):
be deserving from them 100points or 98, whatever you want
to call it, they would not givemore than 93, because they
decided as a policy that theywon't give a higher rating than
93 to wine from that region.
And until they change thatpolicy, until they change their
mind and think like oh well, bynow Israel has gotten better,
(53:12):
they have reached the next level, has gotten better, they've
reached the next level.
Now we can raise that bar andgive higher ratings.
That's very upsetting,obviously, because I think it's
not fair to the wineries, ofcourse, and I also don't think
it's fair to the readers and tothe consumers the wineries, of
(53:36):
course and I also don't thinkit's fair to the readers and to
the consumers.
So that exists.
I think that in the case ofJames Suckling, for instance, I
don't think that's the case atall.
I think that proved quite a fewtimes that they don't have any
such preconceptions and thatthey're being fair with their
ratings.
But it's not the caseeverywhere, and I think that
(53:58):
it's important to keep that inmind and to know that, because
you know like not that Amichaiwould think this way, but if a
winemaker saw his wine getting,you know, 92 points, 90 points,
when he thinks that it should bea lot more higher than that,
and you don't feel bad aboutyourself because you're not the
(54:21):
problem here, politics and stufflike that are unfortunately
often part of the picture andhopefully we'll break those
barriers too just one lastquestion to the three of you.
Solomon Simon Jacob (54:39):
Actually, um, I have one more question.
I thought to amichai, but tothe three of you.
Is there a varietal issue withwhat would be rated at 100
points, like, can you get um apinot that would be rated at 100
, or does it have to be a cab?
Does it have to be bold androbust or does it not make a
(55:03):
difference?
Jay Buchsbaum (55:04):
Listen, cloveau Joe is a Pinot, okay, and it was
big and rich and flavorful, notas opulent and in your face,
but yeah, clove of Joe caneasily get you know some great
white red burgundies can easilybe of that richer, flavorful
category without being you knownot your face.
(55:25):
You're right, and yes, they canget hundreds, I think yeah.
Also, there's Barbarescos andBarolos and certainly Bordeaux's
, which are blends that easilycould and have gotten 100 points
.
Yes, there is a trend amongstsome of the American public not
some most American publicationsto give big 100 pointers to
(55:49):
California cabs, harlins, etc.
I will, by the way.
I just want to want to commentyou know wines that blew you
away.
You asked earlier I just want tocomment on this.
I mentioned some of the bigboys, but I got pretty close to
that and I don't know if anybodyagrees with me on this, but
everybody knows how I feel aboutthis.
On a lot of the alexandervalleys 94 well, you and I um
(56:14):
simon, yeah, 94 in 2004 and etc,etc.
That have been just wow, likecrazy.
And they're not that expensive40, 50 retail.
So it doesn't always have to bein something like, uh, you know
, clove or even a ponte canaecould be in something less
expensive too.
Solomon Simon Jacob (56:34):
A 94,.
I think it was the 94.
Jay Buchsbaum (56:40):
Alex or Chalk Hill.
Solomon Simon Jacob (56:42):
Chalk Hill, the 94 Chalk Hill, just I mean
it stays.
There's a few wines likePentecunet 03, but that one as
well also stays in my mind.
And there's also Katsrin 07.
That was also crazy, for me atleast.
So a bunch of them.
(57:03):
And plus 2007 that I openedAvamichai's Petit Syrah a few
years ago.
That also just totally blew meaway.
Gabriel Geller (57:19):
So okay, the 2006 and 2010,.
Actually Mosaic.
Yeah, it was very, very specialand also that's a different
story.
You know, before Amichai madeShiloh wine, he also made wines
at home and I had some of hisstory.
You know, before Amichai madeShiloh wine, he also made wines
at home and I had some of his2002, you know homemade wines
(57:43):
and they were incredible.
Jay Buchsbaum (57:46):
Really.
Gabriel Geller (57:47):
Yeah, really.
Jay Buchsbaum (57:47):
You still got any left.
Amichai Lourie (57:48):
Amichai Very few bottles.
Jay Buchsbaum (57:52):
Next time I come, are you going to pop one for me
?
Solomon Simon Jacob (57:54):
Next time we've got to get a bunch of us
together and go and do that,yeah, we'll make it happen.
Amichai Lourie (58:00):
Time to come visit.
Solomon Simon Jacob (58:01):
Amichai, speaking of visit, I just want
to bounce off of you.
You just opened your visitorcenter.
What's there for people to see?
Is it worth them coming out toShiloh?
That's a loaded question,because I've been there and I've
been there at an event and itwas amazing.
Amichai Lourie (58:25):
But please, I want to at least give you the
opportunity to talk about it.
So, the visitor center the ideawas when Meir Shomer started
the winery.
He said listen, we're going toinvest whatever we can to make
the best wines we can, butcomfort in a facility, in a
visitor center, that will waituntil after we make great wines
(58:46):
and unfortunately, you know, ittook many more years than we
expected but finally, for the2023 vintage, right before the
war, we moved into the newfacility.
We built this state-of-the-artwinery to make the best wines we
(59:06):
can.
You have to see it to even greatwinemakers and winery owners
see the place that we built whenit comes to efficiency and to
make the best wines we can.
We made it happen.
And also, baruch Hashem, webuilt a new visitor center.
(59:31):
You amazing ambience to enjoywine, overlooking the vineyards,
were right on top of thevineyards and also from the
visitor center you can actuallywalk on top in a special catwalk
on top, inside the barrel roomand inside the big room of all
(59:54):
the tanks and vats where weferment.
So you basically can feel,smell and hear everything that's
happening in the winery and inthe barrel room and also enjoy
wine in an amazing atmosphere.
Unfortunately, we opened up inthe worst time possible in the
(01:00:14):
history of Israel.
We moved in in August for the2023 vintage and before we were
supposed to open up the visitorcenter for Hanukkah in November,
but obviously on Simchat Torah,october 7th, everything changed
(01:00:34):
.
So it took us some time untilwe opened the visitor center and
even now, everything is likevery toned down the team at the
winery when the war started, wewere left two people to do the
work of 15.
Everybody in the army Even nowI have a lot of my staff are
(01:00:55):
still in the army.
Even now, I have a lot of mystaff are still in the army.
Solomon Simon Jacob (01:01:00):
Uh, one guy just came back today and uh, so
we're hoping he's gonna stay Ijust want to tell you though,
amichai, you're being verymodest because a few weeks ago,
ralpheb Dr Medeb had his son'sbar mitzvah in the winery in the
visitor center, and it wasabsolutely great, and he also—
(01:01:26):
I'll tell you something amazingabout that guy.
Amichai Lourie (01:01:28):
I have to interrupt you.
Solomon Simon Jacob (01:01:29):
Yeah, no, go ahead.
Amichai Lourie (01:01:31):
He insisted that we invite soldiers to his son's
bar mitzvah.
I think his guests were like 30, 40 people.
The whole event right.
Solomon Simon Jacob (01:01:44):
Yeah, because they couldn't get in.
Amichai Lourie (01:01:45):
They couldn't get in on the flights he said
could you invite a unit fromnearby that can come, from
nearby, that can come.
So we approached one unit thatwas stationed nearby for about
40 people and then at the lastminute they said they couldn't
come.
So we approached another unitnearby and most of them couldn't
(01:02:08):
.
And then there was one unitthat said, yeah, we're about to
exit, so they had like anoverlap.
I said, okay, they can come.
And then at the last minuteboth units came.
The other unit said, okay, youknow, I can come.
At the last minute he said,okay, you know, whoever Misha ba
ba ba ba.
So he like invited everybody.
(01:02:28):
So there were like twice asmuch soldiers than his guests
and it made the simcha was likeover the charts.
Solomon Simon Jacob (01:02:38):
It was.
It was off the charts.
Amichai Lourie (01:02:40):
There were more people.
There were twice as many peoplein uniform than with their guns
on them and everything you knowthan guests, and I think the
Simcha was like unbelievable, itwas amazing.
Solomon Simon Jacob (01:02:56):
So I just I wanted to say thank you very
much to each of you.
I know you guys are stillworking, some of us are.
It's already almost 8 o'clockat night, so we're about to well
, we're still working, but we'reabout to kick off from the
normal stuff.
But, thank you, thank you verymuch for all of you being on The
Kosher Terroir.
Todah, todah Rabbah.
Amichai Lourie (01:03:17):
Thank you very much.
Thank you for having us L'chaim.
Solomon Simon Jacob (01:03:21):
L'chaim tovim shalom.
Thank you so much.
It was a pleasure.
Bye-bye, bye, bye.
This is Simon Jacob, again yourhost of today's episode of The
Kosher Terroir.
I have a personal request.
(01:03:41):
No matter where you are orwhere you live, please take a
moment to pray for our soldiers'safety and the safe and rapid
return of our hostages.
Please subscribe via yourpodcast provider to be informed
of our new episodes as they arereleased.
If you're new to The KosherTerroir, please check out our
(01:04:02):
many past episodes.
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Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.