September 4, 2025 • 58 mins
Send a Text Message to The Kosher Terroir
Alessandro Cellai speaks with the gentle confidence of someone who has transformed Italian wine over three decades, yet he carries his accomplishments with remarkable humility. As we journey through his winemaking life – from early mentorship under the legendary Giacomo Tachis to his current leadership at multiple prestigious estates – a philosophy emerges that transcends technique.
"In all great wines we must recognize terroir. In top wines we must recognize the grape. And we must recognize the DNA of the winemaker." These principles, instilled by Tachis (creator of Super Tuscans like Sassicaia), have guided Cellai through an extraordinary career spanning Castellare di Castellina, Rocca di Frassinello, and now Valle Piccola. His flagship wines tell distinct stories – the elegant Isodi di San Nicolo with its proprietary Sangiovetto clone, the powerful yet refined Baffanero Merlot, and innovative Sicilian projects that blend tradition with modern vision.
What makes this conversation particularly fascinating is Cellai's decade-long partnership with Dr. Ralph Madeb to create kosher versions of his acclaimed wines. Unlike many elite winemakers who resist kosher production, Cellai embraced it with genuine curiosity. "I want to thank you for giving me the privilege of making kosher wine," he told Madeb – a sentiment that reveals his character as much as his winemaking philosophy. Even more surprising is his recent successful venture into Mevushal production, finding ways to maintain quality despite the heating process required for kosher restaurant service.
Beyond technical mastery, Cellai's story is one of continuous growth and openness to new challenges. "Always we can learn, always we can be better," he reflects, a mindset that has taken him from Tuscan hills to Sicily's coastline, from traditional methods to kosher innovation. As both his children now follow him into winemaking, Cellai's greatest legacy may be this philosophy of humble excellence – creating wines that honor the land while remaining open to evolution. What glass will you pour to experience his remarkable journey?
For more Information:
Alessandro Cellai
https://www.instagram.com/cellaiale/?hl=en
Dr. Ralph Madeb
M&M Importers
Address: 1100 CONEY ISLAND AVENUE
BROOKLYN, NY 11230
Phone: +1 718-684-9826
email: rmadeb@mandmimporters.com
Website: www.MandMimporters.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S. Simon Jacob (00:09):
Welcome to The Kosher Terroir.
I'm Simon Jacob, your host forthis episode from Jerusalem.
Welcome back to The KosherTerroir.
Today we're stepping into arare conversation about ambition
, place and practice.
On one side, Alessandro Cellai,the Tuscan winemaker whose
(00:30):
fingerprints are on benchmarkreds from the coast to Chianti.
On the other, Dr Ralph Madeb, aphysician and longtime industry
partner, who spent the last 10years building the bridge
between Alessandro's cellars andkosher production at a very
high standard.
(00:50):
How do you take a wine styledefined by precision and
translated through the demandsof kashrut without losing soul,
texture or time in barrel?
What compromises are myth andwhat innovations actually move
the needle?
Today we will map the journeyvineyards and vintages,
(01:14):
logistics and law, and the quietmoments where trust turns into
a truly kosher bottling worthyof the label and the land a
truly kosher bottling worthy ofthe label and the land.
If you're driving in your car,please pay attention to the road
ahead.
If you're relaxing at home orin your Tesla on full
(01:34):
self-driving, please pour aglass of wonderful kosher wine.
Sit back, relax and let's pourthis story.
Alessandro, welcome to TheKosher Terroir.
That's the podcast we're on.
I just wanted to mention to youin researching your background,
(01:56):
it was amazing.
It's an amazing background.
There's so many things thatyou've done not only wineries,
but wines that you've made andyou know there's a theme that
goes through it.
You're an extremely creativeperson, but you're also an
extremely visual person, so alot of the things that you've
(02:17):
noted are, all you know, havethese strong visual cues, and
it's very cool, very, veryinteresting, very exciting.
Alessandro Cellai (02:30):
Thank you so much for your introduction and
presentation on yourself, and soI spent all of my career until
now, for the quality.
I had great privilege to haveone of the probably the best
teacher, the best mentor in theworld, Giacomo Tacchi.
(02:50):
Yeah, that, he was the inventorof the most important Italian
white wines and through him Ibecame strictly connected with
his philosophy.
And his philosophy is, ofcourse, starting from the
(03:12):
vineyard, bringing the passionfrom the vineyard into the glass
of wine, and the philosophy ofwinemaking is of Giacomo Tachis
was founded on three differentcolumns extremely important.
The first column was that inall great wines we must
(03:35):
recognize terroir.
The second column was in topwines we must recognize great.
And the third one, that is, wemust recognize the DNA of the
winemaker.
So that was the vision I tookfrom my maestro, from my teacher
(03:59):
, from my mentor, Giacomo Tachis.
S. Simon Jacob (04:04):
He was the one who basically created Super
Tuscan, wasn't he?
Alessandro Cellai (04:09):
Correct, correct, he was the inventor of
Sassicaia, the inventor ofTignanello, he was the key of
success, of fortune, of Antinorifamily.
But not only.
He was the creator of the newItalian wine renaissance at the
end of the 70s, when in manyregions of Italy the wines were
(04:34):
considered just in bulk.
And now those regions aremaking a big fortune, like
Sicily, like Sardinia, likeQuintino Arduari, thanks to him,
because with his genius, withhis mind, he created the best
(04:58):
wines in that region.
Just to consider what wasSicily and what was Sardinia
before Giacomo Tacchi Now tworegions to make wine and 95% in
bulk and to export or to bringin other regions to make more
alcohol content and differentthings.
(05:21):
Now Sicily and S and Sloveniaare two of the most important
wire regions in Italy.
S. Simon Jacob (05:29):
Very interesting .
Dr. Ralph Madeb (05:30):
Alessandro, you know it's funny.
I know you for like 10 yearsalready.
I never heard you speak aboutyour mentor like that.
I don't even know the story.
How did you even get to hook up?
Alessandro Cellai (05:41):
with him.
The relation with GiacomoTacchis was by a fortunate
moment in my life during theuniversity.
One day Giacomo Tacchis came tothe university to make a
seminar and I immediatelyincluded myself in the
(06:06):
participants of this seminar.
And at the end of the seminar,giacomo Tacchi was very kind to
all of the participants and saidI'm here for half an hour extra
time, so if you have somequestions or arguments that you
want to make more deeper, so I'mhere to help you and nobody is
(06:31):
asking something.
And I had a list of a hugenumber of questions.
And then I started to makequestions to him and after a few
minutes he said okay, so listen, you have so many questions,
come to my house, come to myhouse next Wednesday and I'll
(06:52):
explain to you.
Tasting the wines, you canunderstand much better.
And I felt at that time like apassionate man of Formula One,
for example, that I was meetingwith Enzo Ferrari, enzo Ferrari
inviting that person to make atour in Fiorano and maybe to
(07:16):
have a trip with a Ferrariracing car.
So I felt the same level of thesame, the same level of
happiness, the same level ofenthusiasm and since that moment
, the the relation with GiacomoTacchi was a very friendly
relationship, so we became truefriends.
(07:38):
He considered me as his son andhe spent many of his times to
teach me, to bring me in thisbeautiful world and to help me
to understand his vision.
I spent many, many days withhim, many visits in the
(08:02):
vineyards, visits in the cellar,tasting a lot, a lot, a lot of
wines with him, and that was,for me, one of the most
important parts of my career.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (08:15):
My career.
He talks about him like we talkabout our rabbis.
S. Simon Jacob (08:20):
Yeah, no, but he was.
He was so instrumental inItalian wine.
It's just crazy, it'sunbelievable.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (08:28):
Was he a businessman too, or he was just
like a person in the vineyard,enology and things of that way.
Alessandro Cellai (08:36):
All of them.
He was a great winemaker, agreat vineyard manager, a great
philosopher.
He was great at everything.
So one hour with him was muchmore than I have a deep respect
for all of my professors duringmy student career, but one hour
(09:00):
with him, the value of one hourwith him, was much more than
five years with anybody else.
S. Simon Jacob (09:08):
He passed away in 2016.
Alessandro Cellai (09:10):
Yes, correct.
S. Simon Jacob (09:11):
It wasn't so long ago.
Alessandro Cellai (09:13):
Correct, but he was an older gentleman.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (09:17):
right, he was an older gentleman 77, not
really old.
S. Simon Jacob (09:25):
He was born in 33.
Alessandro Cellai (09:35):
He was born in 33.
So, yeah, now that is uh, thatthat was one of the two big
fortunes of of my career.
The first fortune was to have my, my uncle, as a catholic priest
you, you know, ralph that myuncle was a Catholic priest yeah
, yeah, and I spent all of myyounger age with him and he had
a little vineyard around thechurch to make the wine for the
community.
And since I was four or fiveyears old, he brought me into
(10:03):
the vineyard teaching me how tomake wine.
So I probably took from myself,from inside of myself, the germ
of wine that I was born withthat, because no other person in
my family was involved in thewine industry.
S. Simon Jacob (10:23):
But you know that wine industry connection is
Wait for a second no, the wineindustry connection is really
really good, but Giacomoinstilled in you a creative bent
that most people don't haveMost people aren't that creative
(10:46):
and between, even in business,all the different businesses
that you've created, I mean,this is like the resume of a guy
who's 100 years old and you'restill strong and healthy and
well, thank God, and amazing.
So I want to start at thebeginning, though.
(11:09):
We jumped a whole level.
You started in Siena and yourearly years were in Roccadel
Machia.
Alessandro Cellai (11:20):
I did two levels of graduation.
The first level of graduationwas to become a winemaker in
Siena, in the agriculturalschool, and the second level of
graduation, when I met GiacomoTacchis, was the chemistry
university in Pisa.
Okay, and then my firstexperience before to be
(11:46):
graduated in chemistry was inRocca delle Macchie.
That is a big company, bigwinery, in Castellina Chianti,
where I had the first threeyears of my career and after
that experience I moved toCastellari.
S. Simon Jacob (12:08):
Okay, so Castellari is, or DCC as people
call it really is an incredible.
That was in 1996.
Yes, you started there.
So what did you start as?
As a winemaker?
Alessandro Cellai (12:28):
Yeah, yeah, I met at that time in 1995 Mr
Panerai.
Okay, and Mr Panerai is theowner of Castellare and that
year he owned only Castellariand he was looking for a person
to follow not only the winemakersection but also the management
(12:57):
section.
And I was extremely clear withhim and I say I'm very excited
to think about this venture withyou.
But I'm very honest, I can feelvery confident about technical
aspects because, also, I havethe best guide in the world.
But in terms of management,especially in terms of sales,
(13:22):
commercial things, we knowexperience of that.
And Mr Panerai answered to mewith an answer that I still have
in my mind and he said onegreat winemaker and became, for
(13:52):
sure, a great salesman, a greatsalesman and never became a
great winemaker, perfect, andthat's great.
With this, with this sentence,I, I started with a lot of
energy, with a lot of emotionand and we grow immediately a
lot with Castellari.
A few years after, we startedthe project of Rocca di
Frassinello with the jointventure between Castellari and
(14:16):
Chateau Lafitte-Rochelle, andthen we started, also in Sicily,
the Feu de Del Pichotto, and Itook the position of general
manager, winemaker, salespersonand so on, and the CEO of the
company After almost 30 years, Idecided to take another
(14:40):
challenge.
I spoke very clearly with MrPanerai and said this is the
right moment to take anotherchallenge and I took the project
of Valle Piccola in 2019.
That's a different family,right?
Yeah, this is a differentfamily.
They were asking for me formany, many, many years, so at
(15:05):
the end, they asked me to becomea general manager, to become
like a guide of this new, very,very important project.
You visit, ralph, and you knowhow important is this project
this 100 hectares of vineyard,the second largest investment in
(15:26):
the wine industry, with 7,000square meters cellar, two hotels
, four restaurants and so on.
And I took this challengewithout to lose Castellari,
because I'm still making thewine for Castellari and I
(15:48):
preserved my position of vicepresident of Castellari, but at
the same time, I took theposition of general manager for
Valle Piccio.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (16:00):
You're still the winemaker on both ends.
S. Simon Jacob (16:02):
Absolutely, absolutely, that's what's
amazing, Honestly Ralph, that'slike crazy.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (16:09):
Simon.
He's very humble.
I know, when I walk aroundChianti, I feel like the Pope is
walking through Chianti.
Everybody stops me and he's theking winemaker of Tuscany.
There's no doubt about it.
He's the king one maker ofTuscany.
Alessandro Cellai (16:24):
There's no doubt about it.
Well now, just three days ago,I got an interview from the most
important Italian newspaper.
It's Corriere della Sera.
Maybe you are familiar withthis, yeah, and this journalist
called me to make me aninterview, to dedicate for me a
(16:45):
full page it should be next weekabout my career.
S. Simon Jacob (16:52):
It's really incredible.
It's really incredible.
I have some questions withregard to the specific wines
that you produced.
You've been jumping faster,jumping faster, but in
(17:12):
castellari, is there a specificwine that you feel that you
touched and made an amazing wine?
Is there a particular one thatis?
Alessandro Cellai (17:15):
it isodid de san nicola?
Dr. Ralph Madeb (17:16):
simon, you know it's funny, you ask that
question.
I met alessandro through ourgood friend who you've
interviewed in your podcast,nunzio costaldo.
You know, nunzio, yes, we atedinner with him and he
introduced me to Alessandro.
And you know we will tell youtwo funny stories.
So when Nunjo introduced me, Iwas coming off my French kick,
(17:39):
lissandra.
I know, you know, when Istarted this business, you know
we don't make money in thisbusiness.
We're doing it for pleasure,making wine.
Hopefully, maybe in 10 yearsit'll become something big.
But we were coming off theFrench and the French.
It's almost impossible to dealwith them.
Simon, you know it's like.
You know everything is like.
You know you have to have thisspecial.
(18:00):
You know demeanor and decorumand this, and that you sit with
Alessandro Celay.
The whole town thinks he's thePope and he's hugging us and
kissing us and talking to uslike a regular guy.
But I'll tell you one of themost impressive stories.
We made this wine because ofIsodi.
(18:21):
We made kosher wine because allI hear from my Italian
sommelier is oh, you want totaste a good Chianti?
I love Chianti myself.
And he says this Isodi issomething, this is something.
Nobody knows him.
So I called him and said whatthe hell is Isodi?
Everybody's talking about itBecause Esodi is my best friend,
my best friend, alessandroCilaghi.
When he came in, that was thewine that actually put me in the
(18:45):
heart of Italy.
That's the first wine we made.
That was.
It took many years to produce.
Right, because it's not.
It's an IGT, believe it or not,because it doesn't use the
classic designations.
But it is probably the pinnacleof why we make kosher wines and
I want to tell you a story.
I want to tell you the storybecause it is going to attest to
(19:07):
who Alessandro Cerai is.
Simon, whenever I leave aFrench winemaker or a French
thing, I have to kiss their feetfor giving me the honor, the
pleasure to make kosher wine.
You can't tell you what I do.
When we had our first drop ofkosher wine, first drop that was
pressed, put in, I wasn't eventhere, I was here in America.
Alessandro, I'll never forgetthis, to the day I die.
(19:30):
It's like when you do a surgeryand you see the tumor.
You know you have razor sharpeyes on how you're going to get
around it.
This comment penetrated rightthrough my heart and it was
Ralph.
He called me doctor at the timesays doctor, I want to thank
you for giving me the privilegeof making kosher wine.
(19:51):
Yes, when I say it, I want tocry.
You understand sure why.
Yes, when I said I want to cry,you understand he it was.
It was a bond that formed that.
Only people who appreciate wineand appreciate winemaking can
understand one another.
That's who alessandro chelae is, not kicking you out and saying
okay, just pay me the check,I'll see you later.
It was a.
It was a vision, it was, andthat attests who alessandro
(20:13):
chelae is.
The second story that will tellyou is when we were in the
middle of COVID, alessandroCelaya in Florence got sick.
He got very sick and I was soscared for him now because at
that point he became like abrother.
I had all my medicines here,the monoclonal, ready.
I was ready to get it shippedand I told him do me a favor,
don't listen to anybody.
Go there and get the monoclonalantibody Please.
(20:36):
If not, I'm shipping it, fedex.
I had it ready to go, packageready to go.
He went.
He got better.
Two years later I come.
I brought him 10 doses ofmonoclonal.
So we're sitting in one of thebig conferences.
When he saw me, he gives me ahug and everything.
So the people around him askhim why are you so worried about
it?
I told him this guy houses morekosher wine than the entire
(21:01):
France.
I got to make sure he staysalive.
Alessandro Cellai (21:06):
No, this is.
You anticipate me, dear friend,because that for me was one of
the most dark moments in my life.
He was sick.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (21:17):
He was very sick.
He was in the hospital for twoweeks.
Alessandro Cellai (21:19):
I was very, very sick and the doctors, when
I entered in the hospital, Iasked so, doctor, what do you
think I can think to comeoutside and to survive?
And they said we don't know,because at that moment many,
many people were dying.
And so, just two days before tobe recovered in the hospital,
(21:46):
ralph recommended me to domonoclonal.
I did, and when I was outsideof the hospital, just the day
before we had the admission tothe hospital, the major doctor
of the hospital said you can be100 thanks to monoclonal,
because if you survived, 99.9%is thanks to the monoclonal,
(22:12):
because your COVID level, yourpneumonia, was very serious.
Your COVID level was, yourpneumonia was very serious, your
COVID level was very, very,very high.
And so that's the reason why Ican never forget what Ralf did
for me, and I always say toeverybody nobody can touch my
(22:34):
best doctor Ralf, nobody cantouch my best Dr Ralph, nobody
can touch.
Because we became, as he said,very, very big friends and I
think we remain friends for theentire life.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (22:48):
But the eSody, by the way.
But to get to the originalpoint, the eSody was what
actually pushed me into thismarket.
S. Simon Jacob (22:56):
So the Esodi?
That's another situation.
The name Esodi is like.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (23:03):
Here's the wine .
By the way, this is the wineyou see.
Can you see it there?
S. Simon Jacob (23:06):
Yeah, the one with the beautiful bird, and
this is the vintage.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (23:11):
This is the vintage.
The 19 was our inauguratedvintage.
S. Simon Jacob (23:15):
Very cool.
I've shared that with you,ralph.
I love that wine.
It's interesting to me becausethat was the first thing that
woke me up.
I said this name is socomplicated.
What does Isodi mean?
Alessandro Cellai (23:34):
Isodi means in Tuscany dialect means a
strong soil.
S. Simon Jacob (23:41):
It's.
The soil is very strong.
Yeah, and rich in rocks Right,the skin is also very dark.
Yes, which is the local clone,and it's around the parish of St
Nicolo.
Yes, the church, yeah, clone,and it's around the parish of St
Nicolo.
Yes, which is like and I said,who names a name like that?
Alessandro Cellai (24:04):
and the Mr Panerai with Luigi Veronelli,
just in the middle of 70s, whenPanerai bought the first land in
Castellare Luigi Veronelli wasat that time was the major
middle of 70s, when Paneraibought the first land in
Castellare.
Luigi Veronelli was at thattime the major wine journalist
we can say like that, and herecommended to grow this wine
(24:28):
through the soil and through thelocation of the vineyard.
And that's the reason why I sayso the San Nicolò.
S. Simon Jacob (24:37):
Yeah, it's a beautiful name.
It's a beautiful name, it saysit all.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (24:41):
And the San Giovese of Esodi is in a special
area in that area, compared tothe Castellari Chianti in the
reserve.
Yes, this is the.
Alessandro Cellai (24:50):
It's a specific clone, a specific owned
clone of Castellari.
It's a specific clone, aspecific owned clone of
Castellari.
S. Simon Jacob (24:58):
It's a blend of St Giovese and Malvasia Nera San
Giovetto.
San Giovetto.
Right, it's not a St Giovese,exactly, it's the name of the
clone Right.
Alessandro Cellai (25:10):
San Giovetto is the name of the clone of San
Giovese that we are using forthe zombie Right, and the
Malvasia is the name of theclone of Sangiovese that we are
using for risotto Right.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (25:16):
And the Malvasia?
Is the other 15% right?
It's usually 85-15?
S. Simon Jacob (25:20):
Yes, yeah, the next question I had was and
again, going along with thiswhole visual thing is the Renzo
Piano Winery.
Alessandro Cellai (25:33):
Yeah, broca, broca di Sostinella is the Renzo
Piano Winery.
Yeah, welcome, welcome to.
S. Simon Jacob (25:37):
Senella.
It's crazy because one of themost famous, renowned architects
, yes, and because of that ithad all sorts of special things
like gravity, flow, naturallight.
You know, it's an incrediblewinery and it's an incredible,
(25:59):
again, recognition of somethingvery creative but also very
visual.
So I thought it was veryinteresting.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (26:10):
How did that form?
How did that relationship formthat form?
Alessandro Cellai (26:12):
How did that relationship form this is.
Renzo Piano was, since thebeginning of his career, a big
friend of Mr Panerai, the ownerof Castellare, and when, of
course, when we started to thinkabout Rocca di Frascinello,
renzo Piano was already very,very famous and Mr Panerai
(26:35):
invited him to create theproject of the cellar.
Renzo Piano never did beforeRocco di Frassinello a cellar
and also never after.
Rocco di Frassinello remainedthe only one cellar designed by
Renzo Piano and he was very,very excited to do that.
(26:58):
And he was very humble, becauseI still remember when he
decided to accept the commitmentof Mr Panerai, he said okay,
but Alessandro has to be atleast for one week in Paris to
spend time with all of myarchitects, because I really
(27:21):
want to understand which is thethe needs of the production side
versus the architectural side,because it's much important,
much more important, to producea beautiful cellar but that must
(27:42):
be at the disposal of thetechnicians, the people that has
to work inside.
Then it's a beautiful cellarbut not useful for the people
that has to work inside.
So that was very, very humble.
I spent a week in paris givingall the information to the
architects.
So we need this, we need that,this level, this, this must be
(28:07):
the bottling line and this mustbe.
And then they put the dressaround my request.
That was very, very importantBecause at the beginning, when
Mr Panerai informed me that theRens Piano accepted the project,
I was a little bit scaredbecause I was thinking that
(28:31):
maybe this artist and they thinkjust to the architectural side,
the beauty, you know, but notby the real use.
We have to do the opposite.
Enzo Piano was an amazingarchitect and he was thinking
(28:53):
about the idea of production.
The idea of production, theidea of family reunion.
The Sagrato was made just this,because it was considered the
cellar, a point of reunion ofpeople that work in, that are
enjoying the production of wine,that are drinking the wine.
(29:13):
So that is a beautiful thing.
S. Simon Jacob (29:19):
Very cool, very interesting.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (29:22):
Was he tied to the project?
Do you think?
I mean?
He made crazy things, Simon.
He did the New York Timesbuilding, he did the Museum of
Art, he did the airport in Japan.
Alessandro Cellai (29:36):
He did one of the two top architects in the
world.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (29:40):
When he did the winery.
What was his emotions?
Alessandro Cellai (29:44):
Yeah, he was very, very excited and because
he had his young age with hisuncle that his uncle was a
little producer, a little wineproducer in Liguria, and he
spent time with his uncle, likeme, but I spent much more time
(30:05):
with my uncle, and so he wasvery, very interested, since he
was a child, about the wineworld and so that for him to
design one of the most importantcellars in Italy for him was a
big enthusiasm.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (30:23):
I mean, whatever he's describing is
nothing to.
When you get there and I tellyou all the time we have to make
a trip when you walk into thatbarrel room you've been to many
wineries you see they're allstacked on top.
Make a trip.
When you walk into that barrelroom.
You've been to many wineries.
You see they're all stacked ontop of each other.
When you walk into that barrelroom, it's like you almost feel
like you stepped into heaven.
(30:43):
It's so beautiful and it's notmade like a barrel room.
They had made concerts in there.
It's an open space.
It's just so beautiful.
I'll send you some images fromwhen I was there.
It's something unbelievable.
S. Simon Jacob (31:00):
Okay, so I want to go to the next subject.
Okay, because it's like neverending and I don't want to take
the whole evening from you here.
I really promise to cut thisback a little bit.
Buffanero has become like aniconic 100% Merlot.
Why did you decide to plantMerlot and Marima?
Dr. Ralph Madeb (31:26):
By the way, here's the image of the bottle I
pulled out from my cellars.
Alessandro Cellai (31:32):
That was one idea of Mr Panerai.
When one day, when we justplanted the vineyard because at
that time Masseto, the bestItalian Merlot, was already
created and was already famousand Mr Panerai asked me his
(31:53):
desire, I said I really want tomake a Merlot, with the attitude
to become a great Merlot, likeyou said.
And I said, ok, we try to do.
We have a great soil, we havegreat vineyards, and I started
to study how to work to makethis beautiful combination and
(32:22):
in 2007, I decided so we are atthe right moment to produce this
top Merlot.
And I started to produce thiswine in 2007.
Immediately, since the beginning, the recognition of the best
(32:43):
wine writers around the worldwas impressive and now it's one
of the two or three top Merlotof Italy and one of the five,
six top Merlot in the world.
Little production we pick thegrapes individually, berry by
berry, we do the fermentation inTantrit and we aged for two
(33:05):
years in French Elk and thentotally manually moved, not the
machine or touching the swine,and we stain the grapes by hand.
That's the reason why we pickand we select individually,
berry by berry, and then this isan extremely great
(33:27):
concentration, but at the sametime, there is a beautiful
finesse, a beautiful eleganceand a great taste.
S. Simon Jacob (33:38):
Who came up with the name?
Alessandro Cellai (33:40):
Baffanero is the name of the piece of soil
where the vineyard is located.
Baffanero means black mustard.
Yeah, that was the name of thesoil and we took that name to
bring into the wine.
S. Simon Jacob (33:58):
Love it.
How does Baffanaro differ fromBordeaux or right bank Merlot?
Alessandro Cellai (34:06):
Of course Baterrois is completely
different.
We are near the sea but at thesame time we are in the middle
of the hill, so we have abeautiful influence of the sea,
but at the same time we are inthe middle of the hill, so we
have a beautiful influence ofthe sea, but at the same time we
have a limestone.
So it's a very particular microterroir that we have in Rocca
(34:32):
di Fasinello, in Rocca diFrascinello and especially, the
main difference is that inBordeaux the top mellows always
you can feel, when you taste, alittle green character.
In Rocca di Frascinello you cannever taste like that.
So that is much more for mypersonal palate, much more
(34:54):
elegant, much more enjoyablesince the beginning.
Of course, although maybe weare talking about a hundred
years' life, raffaello, we don'thave yet a hundred years of
experience, but I am almost surethat we also can taste and
(35:15):
appreciate this wine for many,many years.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (35:20):
So, simon, just to touch on it so people
understand, I've been there.
I've been there.
You're standing on the top ofRoca de Franceneno's winery.
You have a big outdoor patio.
If you look into the distance,you can see the sea.
Marema is on the coast and thenon the right you'll see three
huge mountains, big mountainhills.
(35:40):
So you get this, you go there.
If you go there early in themorning, you get this very cold.
It has crazy diurnal variationand you can get.
You see, you can actually seethe sea from the background
while you see the mountainside.
It's an incredible sort ofmicro climate that he's
describing.
So you're getting a lot ofinfluence off the ocean and it's
being protected by these bigmountains on the outside.
(36:04):
It's a very fascinating place,besides the fact that Renzo made
it and it's beautiful.
Just the actual vineyard in thearea is something that you
don't see in many places.
S. Simon Jacob (36:17):
Yes, correct the balance of Sangiovese and
Bordeaux grapes.
Has the climate change shiftedthe blending decisions with that
?
Alessandro Cellai (36:29):
Honestly, in all the vineries where I'm
working right now, where I'mworking right now, I never,
never, had the feeling that theclimate change is modifying my
touch into the grapes and intothe wine, because the vines are
(36:52):
trees that are extremely able toadapt themselves to the change
of the micro time, and never Ihad a bad experience.
Of course we had some.
For example, this year we hadone or two weeks extremely hot.
(37:12):
It was 40, 42 degrees butduring the night we have a big
excursion of temperature, sotemperature during the night is
going down rapidly and then fast, and then in that conditions
the ripening is growingbeautifully without any effect,
(37:36):
any damage or any needs tomodify the management of the
vineyard.
But the trees, the vines, arebeautiful trees, very smart
trees, and they adapt themselvesvery quickly.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (37:59):
I mean the testament to that, the
percentage of Merlot andCabernet that you put into the
Super Tuscan.
It's been relatively the samefrom what we described, even
since I've been working with you, absolutely.
S. Simon Jacob (38:11):
I was going to ask that how do you decide on
the proportions?
How did you decide on theproportions?
How did you decide on theproportions, the proportion.
Alessandro Cellai (38:18):
of course we have a kind of idea that we
decided years ago, but normallyevery vintage is a different
story.
So in every vintage I candecide to use a little bit less
on this, a little bit more onthat.
But because it depends on thefeeling, the taste, the balance,
(38:46):
this is extremely, extremelyimportant to verify every single
vintage, what we have in frontof us.
S. Simon Jacob (38:57):
All right, I want to change the subject again
.
What attracted you to Sicily,to the Sicilian vineyards, with
your project in Sicily?
Alessandro Cellai (39:08):
The project in Sicily is another very
exciting project because Sicily,following also the idea of
jacomo takis, the sicilianterroir is the best to produce
anything you want, because thesun is beautiful, the microclime
is amazing, the terroir isfantastic and sicily, for me,
(39:32):
was a an amazing experience andit still is an amazing
experience and especially wherewe are located.
We are in a beautiful hillbetween 200 and 300 meters
elevation, and in front of us wehave the sea.
So we have all the benefitsfrom the sea, so bringing a lot
(39:57):
of breeze, especially during theevening, cooling down the
temperature, and we have all thebeautiful benefits from the sun
giving texture, giving power,energy, without to lose the
freshness, the elegance and thebeautiful drinkability so is
that is that the differencebetween the Sicilian terroir and
(40:19):
Tuscany?
Yeah, a lot of difference.
A lot of difference becausemainly the soil in Sicily is
especially in our side is basedby sandy and in Tuscany we have
more limestone, so that is ahuge difference.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (40:42):
And the temperature right.
It's much hotter more in.
Alessandro Cellai (40:44):
Sicily.
Yeah, temperature is also.
But, for example, that is thecrazy thing, but this year the
maximum temperature of Sicilywas 41.
The maximum temperature inTuscany was 43.
Wow, you can't believe it.
(41:04):
Huh, yeah, that's the truething, because, especially in
our site, we have the beautifulbreeze coming from the ocean and
making the temperature a littlecontrolled, especially during
the last part of the day.
S. Simon Jacob (41:27):
Just a few more questions.
I love your designer labelsproject.
What a great idea to come outwith all the series of the
different designers and how tounify art in Italy and the
design, especially with thegrapes and the wines.
(41:49):
It's a beautiful idea,incredible idea.
Alessandro Cellai (41:53):
Thank you.
This is an idea from Mr Taneraithat he is in touch with all of
the major fashion designersthrough his main business that
is a publisher, and when westarted the Sicilian project, he
was thinking about this idea tomake a sort of combination of
(42:17):
the most important and famousfashion designers to produce a
label for the project andwithout any fee for them.
But the opposite we spend thesame amount of money to help the
renovation of museums and hardworks of sicilian culture.
(42:38):
So that that was a beautifulidea.
The special designers wasextremely happy because they
advertised them the project.
They are bringing some of theprofits to the renovation of
(42:58):
museums and hard works onassisting a culture.
S. Simon Jacob (43:03):
Okay, so let's discuss a white for a second.
Tursat is also a veryinteresting project with
Chardonnay and Viognier.
I know it's unusual for Sicily,but it's also, I think, unusual
in the rest of the world.
(43:23):
So tell me a little bit aboutthat.
What influenced that?
Alessandro Cellai (43:31):
First of all, this is the second winery that
we have in Sicily.
It's a little winery, it's onlyfive hectares and it's on the
opposite side of Sicily.
So the Piscotto is thesoutheast, so the Curavimare is
the northwest.
We are near Memphis and we arejust in a beautiful hill, from
(43:59):
80 meters above the sea leveland going down into the sea.
That is a beautiful hillstarting with a limestone in the
top and arriving at the beachwith the last lines.
So we have a variation ofterroir, variation of everything
(44:20):
, and that is the beautifulcombination between the power
and the elegance of Chardonnayand the finesse, the beauty of
the nose and the flavor taste ofIonier, of Ionier.
That is the beautiful,beautiful combination.
(44:40):
And you feel the saltinessbecause we are really close.
We are 50 meters from the lastvine, is 50 meters from the
water.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (44:51):
So it goes like a slope all the way down.
S. Simon Jacob (44:53):
Yes, have you tasted that, Ralph?
Dr. Ralph Madeb (44:57):
Yeah, we made it.
It was our first wine.
It was our first wine, one ofthe first runs, when we made
Fadidi Pichotto.
We made a Cabernet which hasthe Missoni label.
We made the Nero d'Abala, whichis indigenous grape to Sicily,
so we have to make that one thatwas made by Versace.
And then we made the MerlotValentino.
(45:18):
It was Valentino, and becauseAlessandro makes Merlot and then
I told him, if we're alreadydoing that, let's make the white
wine.
And we made white wine.
It ages on the leaves, correctalso.
Yes, 100%.
No, French oak.
Yeah, it's just a veryold-fashioned type of white wine
that ages over time.
(45:38):
It was one of our firsthigher-end, ageable white wines.
S. Simon Jacob (45:45):
Yes, I don't know if I ever tasted that.
I must have.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (45:48):
You must have because it was one of our really
first and obviously we got itbefore we got the reds, so we
(46:12):
were selling it out.
It's a beautiful wine.
I must have.
That wine is that was our firstand it's so unique.
He mentioned a very subtlecomment, but it's really one of
the wines where you're notgetting a fattery, buttery
California Chardonnay.
It has the Chardonnay qualitiesof Burgundy and what you find
on it is that at the back palateyou get this minerality, this
saltiness that is indescribable.
And even if the guy says Idon't know how to taste wine,
(46:33):
it's so evident to him.
And it's such a beautifuldifferent wine.
Oh, we sold out of it a whileago.
Alessandro Cellai (46:37):
we only made one vintage of it and uh I I
want to say special thanks toralph because the past year he
allowed me to make, for thefirst time in my experience, the
Mevushal wine.
That was an amazing experiencefor me because we always made no
(47:00):
Mevushal, but this year Ralphconvinced me and allowed me to
produce, in Valle Piccola,chianti Classico Mevushal and in
Roccheri, frassinello SugareMevushal.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (47:14):
These are the pains of the Mashiach when an
Italian winemaker is remindingus that he made Mevushal wine.
Alessandro Cellai (47:24):
Yeah, that was very because, honestly, and
I'm very excited for two things.
The first thing because whenRav proposed me I was a little
bit scared.
I'm very honest because, as awinemaker, considering a
pasteurization, even for a fewseconds, is still a
(47:44):
pasteurization, so it's a veryhigh temperature for the wine
and it's not always a goodeffect for the wine and it's not
always a good effect, but I cansay tasting the wine, with and
without pasteurization, doesn'tmake any.
At the moment, after eightmonths, seven months, never we
(48:05):
are finding a difference.
S. Simon Jacob (48:09):
That was the question I was going to ask you.
Did you find a difference?
Alessandro Cellai (48:13):
No, not yet.
Not yet.
I'm curious to pace time bytime.
Maybe next year or two years tounderstand, but for the moment
no difference.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (48:26):
That's amazing.
Yeah, by the way, we've beenthrough a couple of renditions.
We started with Pescaia and Ihave Alessandro speak to Pepe
Pescaia all the time.
You know he adopted it veryearly.
I think what happened with thatand the way it happened, was
that the wines are just so goodand the restaurants want them.
So when I first talked toAlessandro, he's like no, no way
(48:49):
, no way, there's no way I'mgoing to take my wine especially
.
Send your vest.
You know it's a very lightergrape and it's not.
You know it's not.
It has big tannins, the skin isnot as big as the cab, the
Merlot, the Nebbiolo, so.
So we actually made one inItaly with an Italian
pasteurization machine.
It was horrible.
(49:10):
The Montepulciano did well withit, because I think it was also
in that same ruggedness but inthe other ones, and we just
threw it out.
Then we went to France and weliterally the machine that we
bought Valle Piccola, which ishis second winery.
That's the machine we used, butwe did three runs before we
introduced it, and I remember,alessandro, I even sent you a
(49:31):
couple of samples ofnon-Mewushal and Mewushal from
the.
Alessandro Cellai (49:37):
No, but I say I want to thank you because I'm
learning, I'm understandingthat this is a very, very
interesting process and at themoment I don't feel any
difference into the wine.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (49:52):
And it came out .
We made the Valle PiccolaChianti Mebuscial.
We also.
We made the Super Tuscan LeSugere.
We made it Mebuscial Salmon.
And you know why?
Because the demand for the highis so high.
So we made Pescaia Arnes.
We made Pescaia NebbioloBarbera and I said, okay, fine,
northern, we have a little bitof a northern Mebusha.
(50:14):
Now I want Tuscan, the heart ofTuscany, and I think this
attests to who Alessandro Celayis.
He's not square in his mind, hethinks outside of the box, he
plays with it, he investigatesit.
And you know what?
The reason I picked him I couldhave picked other people is
because I know he's going toexhaust the options to make sure
that his label is on it, thatthe wine is just as good, and I
(50:36):
think that's what we did.
S. Simon Jacob (50:38):
In 2021, what convinced you to join this
relatively young project?
Malepiccio, yeah.
Alessandro Cellai (50:45):
Yeah, because , as I said before, it was for
me a kind of a challenge for mycareer to bring a new project
rapidly from zero to a very highlevel and in fact, the the with
(51:05):
the vintage 2021.
So I started to work with the2019 vintage.
So after three vintages, the2021 was included in the top 100
wines of the world by WineSpectator.
So from zero to the top 100wines of the world in three
(51:26):
years and we are growing.
We are having a big success andthe wine is very well
appreciated all over around theworld.
We are selling the wine in over40 countries around the world
and it's still a young projectbut with a great material to
(51:49):
become rapidly one of the pointof reference in the Tuscany wine
production.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (51:58):
I mean, if we, hopefully I keep saying we're
going to go, but if you just putit in your mind and your
podcast members, Castellari isas you would imagine you're in
1950, is as you would imagineyou're in 1950, old school, old
(52:18):
brick Tuscan cellar, it's justold vines, it's an older, very
mature winery, how you expectwineries in your mind or
envision it in the movies.
Valle Picciola is brandspanking new, top of the line
optical sorters from France thatare brand new.
It's a brand new, highlyadaptive, highly.
You know, sophisticated nouveauriche, so to speak, sort of
(52:40):
like the Rockefellers and theJamie Dimon.
You know new money, old money,it's old, old winemaking, brand
new winemaking.
And you know the only commondenominator is Alessandro Celai.
And you know the only commondenominator it's Alessandro
Celag, it's Alessandro.
So you have the same winemakermaking these paradoxical one
zero, no much, as the good booksays, and that's the wineries.
S. Simon Jacob (53:04):
So, Alessandro, Dr.
Ralph has been talking to meabout you for a long time.
I've wanted to do this for awhile and we've talked about it
for a little bit and I hadn'treally grasped who we were
talking about until I starteddoing a little bit of research
and then, all of a sudden, Iwent wow, what am I?
(53:24):
You know like I'm humbled byeven you giving me the time to
ask you questions, because it'sso, this is just really so
special.
It's amazing, it's absolutelyokay.
So now it's nearly 30 years ofwinemaking.
I don't want to go into thedetails too much, but what do
(53:47):
you want your legacy to be?
What do you want to beremembered by?
Alessandro Cellai (53:52):
That's a great question.
That is a question.
So, after I think, a goodcareer, my idea and I really
hope, because I have two kids, aboy and girl.
(54:14):
Both are graduated in winemaker, one just finished a month ago
and my daughter will finish intwo months, and my idea is to
bring to them all of my attitude, all of my feelings, all of my
(54:34):
ideas, but of course they haveto bring also their idea by
themselves.
But I hope that they can bring,to bring my philosophy for the
future.
That is my dream.
So I want to bring myphilosophy for the future.
That is my dream.
(54:54):
So I want to leave my legacy tothem.
S. Simon Jacob (55:00):
I love it.
Please, God, they will be ascreative as you.
Alessandro Cellai (55:05):
I consider myself a very fortunate man
because I had a lot of great,beautiful moments in my career.
I had a fantastic moment in mylife, I had the opportunity to
meet wonderful persons like DrRalph and I had great
(55:29):
experiences.
But always what I was thinkingsince my beginning, that always
we can learn, always we can bebetter, always we can do better.
And that was my idea, was mytarget Vintage by vintage, to
(55:52):
try to grow, to make a littlestep on, and that was my never
to consider myself arrived,never to consider the level I
reached as the maximum.
Always we can do better, timeby time is the idea, the
(56:14):
motivation, the attitude must beto create something better,
year by year.
S. Simon Jacob (56:24):
Amazing.
I thank you.
I feel incredibly privileged tohave had you on this podcast
and I always feel privilegedwith Dr Ralph, but it's you're,
you're really.
It's awesome to go through thisand I really look forward to
meeting you in the future.
From Siena's cellars to kosherbarrels, today's journey reminds
(56:57):
us that wine isn't justchemistry, it's conviction, it's
culture, it's community.
Alessandro Cellai crafts thevision, Dr.
Ralph Medeb ensures the bridge,and together they've written a
decade-long chapter in kosherwine history.
But the story doesn't end here.
On our next episode we'll openup another door into the hidden
(57:22):
corners of the wine world Freshterroir, new voices and ideas
that challenge what we thoughtwe knew.
So stay with us, subscribe, ifyou haven't already, and let the
kosher terroir be your passportto the next great glass.
This is Simon Jacob, again yourhost of today's episode of The
(57:44):
Kosher Terroir.
I have a personal request.
No matter where you are orwhere you live, please take a
moment to pray for our soldiers'safety and the safe and rapid
return of our hostages.
Please subscribe via yourpodcast provider to be informed
of our new episodes as they arereleased.
(58:05):
If you're new to The KosherTerroir, please check out our
many past episodes.
Welcome to The Kosher Terroir.
I'm Simon Jacob, your host forthis episode from Jerusalem.
Welcome back to The KosherTerroir.
Today we're stepping into arare conversation about ambition
, place and practice.
On one side, Alessandro Cellai,the Tuscan winemaker whose
(00:30):
fingerprints are on benchmarkreds from the coast to Chianti.
On the other, Dr Ralph Madeb, aphysician and longtime industry
partner, who spent the last 10years building the bridge
between Alessandro's cellars andkosher production at a very
high standard.
(00:50):
How do you take a wine styledefined by precision and
translated through the demandsof kashrut without losing soul,
texture or time in barrel?
What compromises are myth andwhat innovations actually move
the needle?
Today we will map the journeyvineyards and vintages,
(01:14):
logistics and law, and the quietmoments where trust turns into
a truly kosher bottling worthyof the label and the land a
truly kosher bottling worthy ofthe label and the land.
If you're driving in your car,please pay attention to the road
ahead.
If you're relaxing at home orin your Tesla on full
(01:34):
self-driving, please pour aglass of wonderful kosher wine.
Sit back, relax and let's pourthis story.
Alessandro, welcome to TheKosher Terroir.
That's the podcast we're on.
I just wanted to mention to youin researching your background,
(01:56):
it was amazing.
It's an amazing background.
There's so many things thatyou've done not only wineries,
but wines that you've made andyou know there's a theme that
goes through it.
You're an extremely creativeperson, but you're also an
extremely visual person, so alot of the things that you've
(02:17):
noted are, all you know, havethese strong visual cues, and
it's very cool, very, veryinteresting, very exciting.
Alessandro Cellai (02:30):
Thank you so much for your introduction and
presentation on yourself, and soI spent all of my career until
now, for the quality.
I had great privilege to haveone of the probably the best
teacher, the best mentor in theworld, Giacomo Tacchi.
(02:50):
Yeah, that, he was the inventorof the most important Italian
white wines and through him Ibecame strictly connected with
his philosophy.
And his philosophy is, ofcourse, starting from the
(03:12):
vineyard, bringing the passionfrom the vineyard into the glass
of wine, and the philosophy ofwinemaking is of Giacomo Tachis
was founded on three differentcolumns extremely important.
The first column was that inall great wines we must
(03:35):
recognize terroir.
The second column was in topwines we must recognize great.
And the third one, that is, wemust recognize the DNA of the
winemaker.
So that was the vision I tookfrom my maestro, from my teacher
(03:59):
, from my mentor, Giacomo Tachis.
S. Simon Jacob (04:04):
He was the one who basically created Super
Tuscan, wasn't he?
Alessandro Cellai (04:09):
Correct, correct, he was the inventor of
Sassicaia, the inventor ofTignanello, he was the key of
success, of fortune, of Antinorifamily.
But not only.
He was the creator of the newItalian wine renaissance at the
end of the 70s, when in manyregions of Italy the wines were
(04:34):
considered just in bulk.
And now those regions aremaking a big fortune, like
Sicily, like Sardinia, likeQuintino Arduari, thanks to him,
because with his genius, withhis mind, he created the best
(04:58):
wines in that region.
Just to consider what wasSicily and what was Sardinia
before Giacomo Tacchi Now tworegions to make wine and 95% in
bulk and to export or to bringin other regions to make more
alcohol content and differentthings.
(05:21):
Now Sicily and S and Sloveniaare two of the most important
wire regions in Italy.
S. Simon Jacob (05:29):
Very interesting .
Dr. Ralph Madeb (05:30):
Alessandro, you know it's funny.
I know you for like 10 yearsalready.
I never heard you speak aboutyour mentor like that.
I don't even know the story.
How did you even get to hook up?
Alessandro Cellai (05:41):
with him.
The relation with GiacomoTacchis was by a fortunate
moment in my life during theuniversity.
One day Giacomo Tacchis came tothe university to make a
seminar and I immediatelyincluded myself in the
(06:06):
participants of this seminar.
And at the end of the seminar,giacomo Tacchi was very kind to
all of the participants and saidI'm here for half an hour extra
time, so if you have somequestions or arguments that you
want to make more deeper, so I'mhere to help you and nobody is
(06:31):
asking something.
And I had a list of a hugenumber of questions.
And then I started to makequestions to him and after a few
minutes he said okay, so listen, you have so many questions,
come to my house, come to myhouse next Wednesday and I'll
(06:52):
explain to you.
Tasting the wines, you canunderstand much better.
And I felt at that time like apassionate man of Formula One,
for example, that I was meetingwith Enzo Ferrari, enzo Ferrari
inviting that person to make atour in Fiorano and maybe to
(07:16):
have a trip with a Ferrariracing car.
So I felt the same level of thesame, the same level of
happiness, the same level ofenthusiasm and since that moment
, the the relation with GiacomoTacchi was a very friendly
relationship, so we became truefriends.
(07:38):
He considered me as his son andhe spent many of his times to
teach me, to bring me in thisbeautiful world and to help me
to understand his vision.
I spent many, many days withhim, many visits in the
(08:02):
vineyards, visits in the cellar,tasting a lot, a lot, a lot of
wines with him, and that was,for me, one of the most
important parts of my career.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (08:15):
My career.
He talks about him like we talkabout our rabbis.
S. Simon Jacob (08:20):
Yeah, no, but he was.
He was so instrumental inItalian wine.
It's just crazy, it'sunbelievable.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (08:28):
Was he a businessman too, or he was just
like a person in the vineyard,enology and things of that way.
Alessandro Cellai (08:36):
All of them.
He was a great winemaker, agreat vineyard manager, a great
philosopher.
He was great at everything.
So one hour with him was muchmore than I have a deep respect
for all of my professors duringmy student career, but one hour
(09:00):
with him, the value of one hourwith him, was much more than
five years with anybody else.
S. Simon Jacob (09:08):
He passed away in 2016.
Alessandro Cellai (09:10):
Yes, correct.
S. Simon Jacob (09:11):
It wasn't so long ago.
Alessandro Cellai (09:13):
Correct, but he was an older gentleman.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (09:17):
right, he was an older gentleman 77, not
really old.
S. Simon Jacob (09:25):
He was born in 33.
Alessandro Cellai (09:35):
He was born in 33.
So, yeah, now that is uh, thatthat was one of the two big
fortunes of of my career.
The first fortune was to have my, my uncle, as a catholic priest
you, you know, ralph that myuncle was a Catholic priest yeah
, yeah, and I spent all of myyounger age with him and he had
a little vineyard around thechurch to make the wine for the
community.
And since I was four or fiveyears old, he brought me into
(10:03):
the vineyard teaching me how tomake wine.
So I probably took from myself,from inside of myself, the germ
of wine that I was born withthat, because no other person in
my family was involved in thewine industry.
S. Simon Jacob (10:23):
But you know that wine industry connection is
Wait for a second no, the wineindustry connection is really
really good, but Giacomoinstilled in you a creative bent
that most people don't haveMost people aren't that creative
(10:46):
and between, even in business,all the different businesses
that you've created, I mean,this is like the resume of a guy
who's 100 years old and you'restill strong and healthy and
well, thank God, and amazing.
So I want to start at thebeginning, though.
(11:09):
We jumped a whole level.
You started in Siena and yourearly years were in Roccadel
Machia.
Alessandro Cellai (11:20):
I did two levels of graduation.
The first level of graduationwas to become a winemaker in
Siena, in the agriculturalschool, and the second level of
graduation, when I met GiacomoTacchis, was the chemistry
university in Pisa.
Okay, and then my firstexperience before to be
(11:46):
graduated in chemistry was inRocca delle Macchie.
That is a big company, bigwinery, in Castellina Chianti,
where I had the first threeyears of my career and after
that experience I moved toCastellari.
S. Simon Jacob (12:08):
Okay, so Castellari is, or DCC as people
call it really is an incredible.
That was in 1996.
Yes, you started there.
So what did you start as?
As a winemaker?
Alessandro Cellai (12:28):
Yeah, yeah, I met at that time in 1995 Mr
Panerai.
Okay, and Mr Panerai is theowner of Castellare and that
year he owned only Castellariand he was looking for a person
to follow not only the winemakersection but also the management
(12:57):
section.
And I was extremely clear withhim and I say I'm very excited
to think about this venture withyou.
But I'm very honest, I can feelvery confident about technical
aspects because, also, I havethe best guide in the world.
But in terms of management,especially in terms of sales,
(13:22):
commercial things, we knowexperience of that.
And Mr Panerai answered to mewith an answer that I still have
in my mind and he said onegreat winemaker and became, for
(13:52):
sure, a great salesman, a greatsalesman and never became a
great winemaker, perfect, andthat's great.
With this, with this sentence,I, I started with a lot of
energy, with a lot of emotionand and we grow immediately a
lot with Castellari.
A few years after, we startedthe project of Rocca di
Frassinello with the jointventure between Castellari and
(14:16):
Chateau Lafitte-Rochelle, andthen we started, also in Sicily,
the Feu de Del Pichotto, and Itook the position of general
manager, winemaker, salespersonand so on, and the CEO of the
company After almost 30 years, Idecided to take another
(14:40):
challenge.
I spoke very clearly with MrPanerai and said this is the
right moment to take anotherchallenge and I took the project
of Valle Piccola in 2019.
That's a different family,right?
Yeah, this is a differentfamily.
They were asking for me formany, many, many years, so at
(15:05):
the end, they asked me to becomea general manager, to become
like a guide of this new, very,very important project.
You visit, ralph, and you knowhow important is this project
this 100 hectares of vineyard,the second largest investment in
(15:26):
the wine industry, with 7,000square meters cellar, two hotels
, four restaurants and so on.
And I took this challengewithout to lose Castellari,
because I'm still making thewine for Castellari and I
(15:48):
preserved my position of vicepresident of Castellari, but at
the same time, I took theposition of general manager for
Valle Piccio.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (16:00):
You're still the winemaker on both ends.
S. Simon Jacob (16:02):
Absolutely, absolutely, that's what's
amazing, Honestly Ralph, that'slike crazy.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (16:09):
Simon.
He's very humble.
I know, when I walk aroundChianti, I feel like the Pope is
walking through Chianti.
Everybody stops me and he's theking winemaker of Tuscany.
There's no doubt about it.
He's the king one maker ofTuscany.
Alessandro Cellai (16:24):
There's no doubt about it.
Well now, just three days ago,I got an interview from the most
important Italian newspaper.
It's Corriere della Sera.
Maybe you are familiar withthis, yeah, and this journalist
called me to make me aninterview, to dedicate for me a
(16:45):
full page it should be next weekabout my career.
S. Simon Jacob (16:52):
It's really incredible.
It's really incredible.
I have some questions withregard to the specific wines
that you produced.
You've been jumping faster,jumping faster, but in
(17:12):
castellari, is there a specificwine that you feel that you
touched and made an amazing wine?
Is there a particular one thatis?
Alessandro Cellai (17:15):
it isodid de san nicola?
Dr. Ralph Madeb (17:16):
simon, you know it's funny, you ask that
question.
I met alessandro through ourgood friend who you've
interviewed in your podcast,nunzio costaldo.
You know, nunzio, yes, we atedinner with him and he
introduced me to Alessandro.
And you know we will tell youtwo funny stories.
So when Nunjo introduced me, Iwas coming off my French kick,
(17:39):
lissandra.
I know, you know, when Istarted this business, you know
we don't make money in thisbusiness.
We're doing it for pleasure,making wine.
Hopefully, maybe in 10 yearsit'll become something big.
But we were coming off theFrench and the French.
It's almost impossible to dealwith them.
Simon, you know it's like.
You know everything is like.
You know you have to have thisspecial.
(18:00):
You know demeanor and decorumand this, and that you sit with
Alessandro Celay.
The whole town thinks he's thePope and he's hugging us and
kissing us and talking to uslike a regular guy.
But I'll tell you one of themost impressive stories.
We made this wine because ofIsodi.
(18:21):
We made kosher wine because allI hear from my Italian
sommelier is oh, you want totaste a good Chianti?
I love Chianti myself.
And he says this Isodi issomething, this is something.
Nobody knows him.
So I called him and said whatthe hell is Isodi?
Everybody's talking about itBecause Esodi is my best friend,
my best friend, alessandroCilaghi.
When he came in, that was thewine that actually put me in the
(18:45):
heart of Italy.
That's the first wine we made.
That was.
It took many years to produce.
Right, because it's not.
It's an IGT, believe it or not,because it doesn't use the
classic designations.
But it is probably the pinnacleof why we make kosher wines and
I want to tell you a story.
I want to tell you the storybecause it is going to attest to
(19:07):
who Alessandro Cerai is.
Simon, whenever I leave aFrench winemaker or a French
thing, I have to kiss their feetfor giving me the honor, the
pleasure to make kosher wine.
You can't tell you what I do.
When we had our first drop ofkosher wine, first drop that was
pressed, put in, I wasn't eventhere, I was here in America.
Alessandro, I'll never forgetthis, to the day I die.
(19:30):
It's like when you do a surgeryand you see the tumor.
You know you have razor sharpeyes on how you're going to get
around it.
This comment penetrated rightthrough my heart and it was
Ralph.
He called me doctor at the timesays doctor, I want to thank
you for giving me the privilegeof making kosher wine.
(19:51):
Yes, when I say it, I want tocry.
You understand sure why.
Yes, when I said I want to cry,you understand he it was.
It was a bond that formed that.
Only people who appreciate wineand appreciate winemaking can
understand one another.
That's who alessandro chelae is, not kicking you out and saying
okay, just pay me the check,I'll see you later.
It was a.
It was a vision, it was, andthat attests who alessandro
(20:13):
chelae is.
The second story that will tellyou is when we were in the
middle of COVID, alessandroCelaya in Florence got sick.
He got very sick and I was soscared for him now because at
that point he became like abrother.
I had all my medicines here,the monoclonal, ready.
I was ready to get it shippedand I told him do me a favor,
don't listen to anybody.
Go there and get the monoclonalantibody Please.
(20:36):
If not, I'm shipping it, fedex.
I had it ready to go, packageready to go.
He went.
He got better.
Two years later I come.
I brought him 10 doses ofmonoclonal.
So we're sitting in one of thebig conferences.
When he saw me, he gives me ahug and everything.
So the people around him askhim why are you so worried about
it?
I told him this guy houses morekosher wine than the entire
(21:01):
France.
I got to make sure he staysalive.
Alessandro Cellai (21:06):
No, this is.
You anticipate me, dear friend,because that for me was one of
the most dark moments in my life.
He was sick.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (21:17):
He was very sick.
He was in the hospital for twoweeks.
Alessandro Cellai (21:19):
I was very, very sick and the doctors, when
I entered in the hospital, Iasked so, doctor, what do you
think I can think to comeoutside and to survive?
And they said we don't know,because at that moment many,
many people were dying.
And so, just two days before tobe recovered in the hospital,
(21:46):
ralph recommended me to domonoclonal.
I did, and when I was outsideof the hospital, just the day
before we had the admission tothe hospital, the major doctor
of the hospital said you can be100 thanks to monoclonal,
because if you survived, 99.9%is thanks to the monoclonal,
(22:12):
because your COVID level, yourpneumonia, was very serious.
Your COVID level was, yourpneumonia was very serious, your
COVID level was very, very,very high.
And so that's the reason why Ican never forget what Ralf did
for me, and I always say toeverybody nobody can touch my
(22:34):
best doctor Ralf, nobody cantouch my best Dr Ralph, nobody
can touch.
Because we became, as he said,very, very big friends and I
think we remain friends for theentire life.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (22:48):
But the eSody, by the way.
But to get to the originalpoint, the eSody was what
actually pushed me into thismarket.
S. Simon Jacob (22:56):
So the Esodi?
That's another situation.
The name Esodi is like.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (23:03):
Here's the wine .
By the way, this is the wineyou see.
Can you see it there?
S. Simon Jacob (23:06):
Yeah, the one with the beautiful bird, and
this is the vintage.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (23:11):
This is the vintage.
The 19 was our inauguratedvintage.
S. Simon Jacob (23:15):
Very cool.
I've shared that with you,ralph.
I love that wine.
It's interesting to me becausethat was the first thing that
woke me up.
I said this name is socomplicated.
What does Isodi mean?
Alessandro Cellai (23:34):
Isodi means in Tuscany dialect means a
strong soil.
S. Simon Jacob (23:41):
It's.
The soil is very strong.
Yeah, and rich in rocks Right,the skin is also very dark.
Yes, which is the local clone,and it's around the parish of St
Nicolo.
Yes, the church, yeah, clone,and it's around the parish of St
Nicolo.
Yes, which is like and I said,who names a name like that?
Alessandro Cellai (24:04):
and the Mr Panerai with Luigi Veronelli,
just in the middle of 70s, whenPanerai bought the first land in
Castellare Luigi Veronelli wasat that time was the major
middle of 70s, when Paneraibought the first land in
Castellare.
Luigi Veronelli was at thattime the major wine journalist
we can say like that, and herecommended to grow this wine
(24:28):
through the soil and through thelocation of the vineyard.
And that's the reason why I sayso the San Nicolò.
S. Simon Jacob (24:37):
Yeah, it's a beautiful name.
It's a beautiful name, it saysit all.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (24:41):
And the San Giovese of Esodi is in a special
area in that area, compared tothe Castellari Chianti in the
reserve.
Yes, this is the.
Alessandro Cellai (24:50):
It's a specific clone, a specific owned
clone of Castellari.
It's a specific clone, aspecific owned clone of
Castellari.
S. Simon Jacob (24:58):
It's a blend of St Giovese and Malvasia Nera San
Giovetto.
San Giovetto.
Right, it's not a St Giovese,exactly, it's the name of the
clone Right.
Alessandro Cellai (25:10):
San Giovetto is the name of the clone of San
Giovese that we are using forthe zombie Right, and the
Malvasia is the name of theclone of Sangiovese that we are
using for risotto Right.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (25:16):
And the Malvasia?
Is the other 15% right?
It's usually 85-15?
S. Simon Jacob (25:20):
Yes, yeah, the next question I had was and
again, going along with thiswhole visual thing is the Renzo
Piano Winery.
Alessandro Cellai (25:33):
Yeah, broca, broca di Sostinella is the Renzo
Piano Winery.
Yeah, welcome, welcome to.
S. Simon Jacob (25:37):
Senella.
It's crazy because one of themost famous, renowned architects
, yes, and because of that ithad all sorts of special things
like gravity, flow, naturallight.
You know, it's an incrediblewinery and it's an incredible,
(25:59):
again, recognition of somethingvery creative but also very
visual.
So I thought it was veryinteresting.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (26:10):
How did that form?
How did that relationship formthat form?
Alessandro Cellai (26:12):
How did that relationship form this is.
Renzo Piano was, since thebeginning of his career, a big
friend of Mr Panerai, the ownerof Castellare, and when, of
course, when we started to thinkabout Rocca di Frascinello,
renzo Piano was already very,very famous and Mr Panerai
(26:35):
invited him to create theproject of the cellar.
Renzo Piano never did beforeRocco di Frassinello a cellar
and also never after.
Rocco di Frassinello remainedthe only one cellar designed by
Renzo Piano and he was very,very excited to do that.
(26:58):
And he was very humble, becauseI still remember when he
decided to accept the commitmentof Mr Panerai, he said okay,
but Alessandro has to be atleast for one week in Paris to
spend time with all of myarchitects, because I really
(27:21):
want to understand which is thethe needs of the production side
versus the architectural side,because it's much important,
much more important, to producea beautiful cellar but that must
(27:42):
be at the disposal of thetechnicians, the people that has
to work inside.
Then it's a beautiful cellarbut not useful for the people
that has to work inside.
So that was very, very humble.
I spent a week in paris givingall the information to the
architects.
So we need this, we need that,this level, this, this must be
(28:07):
the bottling line and this mustbe.
And then they put the dressaround my request.
That was very, very importantBecause at the beginning, when
Mr Panerai informed me that theRens Piano accepted the project,
I was a little bit scaredbecause I was thinking that
(28:31):
maybe this artist and they thinkjust to the architectural side,
the beauty, you know, but notby the real use.
We have to do the opposite.
Enzo Piano was an amazingarchitect and he was thinking
(28:53):
about the idea of production.
The idea of production, theidea of family reunion.
The Sagrato was made just this,because it was considered the
cellar, a point of reunion ofpeople that work in, that are
enjoying the production of wine,that are drinking the wine.
(29:13):
So that is a beautiful thing.
S. Simon Jacob (29:19):
Very cool, very interesting.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (29:22):
Was he tied to the project?
Do you think?
I mean?
He made crazy things, Simon.
He did the New York Timesbuilding, he did the Museum of
Art, he did the airport in Japan.
Alessandro Cellai (29:36):
He did one of the two top architects in the
world.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (29:40):
When he did the winery.
What was his emotions?
Alessandro Cellai (29:44):
Yeah, he was very, very excited and because
he had his young age with hisuncle that his uncle was a
little producer, a little wineproducer in Liguria, and he
spent time with his uncle, likeme, but I spent much more time
(30:05):
with my uncle, and so he wasvery, very interested, since he
was a child, about the wineworld and so that for him to
design one of the most importantcellars in Italy for him was a
big enthusiasm.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (30:23):
I mean, whatever he's describing is
nothing to.
When you get there and I tellyou all the time we have to make
a trip when you walk into thatbarrel room you've been to many
wineries you see they're allstacked on top.
Make a trip.
When you walk into that barrelroom.
You've been to many wineries.
You see they're all stacked ontop of each other.
When you walk into that barrelroom, it's like you almost feel
like you stepped into heaven.
(30:43):
It's so beautiful and it's notmade like a barrel room.
They had made concerts in there.
It's an open space.
It's just so beautiful.
I'll send you some images fromwhen I was there.
It's something unbelievable.
S. Simon Jacob (31:00):
Okay, so I want to go to the next subject.
Okay, because it's like neverending and I don't want to take
the whole evening from you here.
I really promise to cut thisback a little bit.
Buffanero has become like aniconic 100% Merlot.
Why did you decide to plantMerlot and Marima?
Dr. Ralph Madeb (31:26):
By the way, here's the image of the bottle I
pulled out from my cellars.
Alessandro Cellai (31:32):
That was one idea of Mr Panerai.
When one day, when we justplanted the vineyard because at
that time Masseto, the bestItalian Merlot, was already
created and was already famousand Mr Panerai asked me his
(31:53):
desire, I said I really want tomake a Merlot, with the attitude
to become a great Merlot, likeyou said.
And I said, ok, we try to do.
We have a great soil, we havegreat vineyards, and I started
to study how to work to makethis beautiful combination and
(32:22):
in 2007, I decided so we are atthe right moment to produce this
top Merlot.
And I started to produce thiswine in 2007.
Immediately, since the beginning, the recognition of the best
(32:43):
wine writers around the worldwas impressive and now it's one
of the two or three top Merlotof Italy and one of the five,
six top Merlot in the world.
Little production we pick thegrapes individually, berry by
berry, we do the fermentation inTantrit and we aged for two
(33:05):
years in French Elk and thentotally manually moved, not the
machine or touching the swine,and we stain the grapes by hand.
That's the reason why we pickand we select individually,
berry by berry, and then this isan extremely great
(33:27):
concentration, but at the sametime, there is a beautiful
finesse, a beautiful eleganceand a great taste.
S. Simon Jacob (33:38):
Who came up with the name?
Alessandro Cellai (33:40):
Baffanero is the name of the piece of soil
where the vineyard is located.
Baffanero means black mustard.
Yeah, that was the name of thesoil and we took that name to
bring into the wine.
S. Simon Jacob (33:58):
Love it.
How does Baffanaro differ fromBordeaux or right bank Merlot?
Alessandro Cellai (34:06):
Of course Baterrois is completely
different.
We are near the sea but at thesame time we are in the middle
of the hill, so we have abeautiful influence of the sea,
but at the same time we are inthe middle of the hill, so we
have a beautiful influence ofthe sea, but at the same time we
have a limestone.
So it's a very particular microterroir that we have in Rocca
(34:32):
di Fasinello, in Rocca diFrascinello and especially, the
main difference is that inBordeaux the top mellows always
you can feel, when you taste, alittle green character.
In Rocca di Frascinello you cannever taste like that.
So that is much more for mypersonal palate, much more
(34:54):
elegant, much more enjoyablesince the beginning.
Of course, although maybe weare talking about a hundred
years' life, raffaello, we don'thave yet a hundred years of
experience, but I am almost surethat we also can taste and
(35:15):
appreciate this wine for many,many years.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (35:20):
So, simon, just to touch on it so people
understand, I've been there.
I've been there.
You're standing on the top ofRoca de Franceneno's winery.
You have a big outdoor patio.
If you look into the distance,you can see the sea.
Marema is on the coast and thenon the right you'll see three
huge mountains, big mountainhills.
(35:40):
So you get this, you go there.
If you go there early in themorning, you get this very cold.
It has crazy diurnal variationand you can get.
You see, you can actually seethe sea from the background
while you see the mountainside.
It's an incredible sort ofmicro climate that he's
describing.
So you're getting a lot ofinfluence off the ocean and it's
being protected by these bigmountains on the outside.
(36:04):
It's a very fascinating place,besides the fact that Renzo made
it and it's beautiful.
Just the actual vineyard in thearea is something that you
don't see in many places.
S. Simon Jacob (36:17):
Yes, correct the balance of Sangiovese and
Bordeaux grapes.
Has the climate change shiftedthe blending decisions with that
?
Alessandro Cellai (36:29):
Honestly, in all the vineries where I'm
working right now, where I'mworking right now, I never,
never, had the feeling that theclimate change is modifying my
touch into the grapes and intothe wine, because the vines are
(36:52):
trees that are extremely able toadapt themselves to the change
of the micro time, and never Ihad a bad experience.
Of course we had some.
For example, this year we hadone or two weeks extremely hot.
(37:12):
It was 40, 42 degrees butduring the night we have a big
excursion of temperature, sotemperature during the night is
going down rapidly and then fast, and then in that conditions
the ripening is growingbeautifully without any effect,
(37:36):
any damage or any needs tomodify the management of the
vineyard.
But the trees, the vines, arebeautiful trees, very smart
trees, and they adapt themselvesvery quickly.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (37:59):
I mean the testament to that, the
percentage of Merlot andCabernet that you put into the
Super Tuscan.
It's been relatively the samefrom what we described, even
since I've been working with you, absolutely.
S. Simon Jacob (38:11):
I was going to ask that how do you decide on
the proportions?
How did you decide on theproportions?
How did you decide on theproportions, the proportion.
Alessandro Cellai (38:18):
of course we have a kind of idea that we
decided years ago, but normallyevery vintage is a different
story.
So in every vintage I candecide to use a little bit less
on this, a little bit more onthat.
But because it depends on thefeeling, the taste, the balance,
(38:46):
this is extremely, extremelyimportant to verify every single
vintage, what we have in frontof us.
S. Simon Jacob (38:57):
All right, I want to change the subject again
.
What attracted you to Sicily,to the Sicilian vineyards, with
your project in Sicily?
Alessandro Cellai (39:08):
The project in Sicily is another very
exciting project because Sicily,following also the idea of
jacomo takis, the sicilianterroir is the best to produce
anything you want, because thesun is beautiful, the microclime
is amazing, the terroir isfantastic and sicily, for me,
(39:32):
was a an amazing experience andit still is an amazing
experience and especially wherewe are located.
We are in a beautiful hillbetween 200 and 300 meters
elevation, and in front of us wehave the sea.
So we have all the benefitsfrom the sea, so bringing a lot
(39:57):
of breeze, especially during theevening, cooling down the
temperature, and we have all thebeautiful benefits from the sun
giving texture, giving power,energy, without to lose the
freshness, the elegance and thebeautiful drinkability so is
that is that the differencebetween the Sicilian terroir and
(40:19):
Tuscany?
Yeah, a lot of difference.
A lot of difference becausemainly the soil in Sicily is
especially in our side is basedby sandy and in Tuscany we have
more limestone, so that is ahuge difference.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (40:42):
And the temperature right.
It's much hotter more in.
Alessandro Cellai (40:44):
Sicily.
Yeah, temperature is also.
But, for example, that is thecrazy thing, but this year the
maximum temperature of Sicilywas 41.
The maximum temperature inTuscany was 43.
Wow, you can't believe it.
(41:04):
Huh, yeah, that's the truething, because, especially in
our site, we have the beautifulbreeze coming from the ocean and
making the temperature a littlecontrolled, especially during
the last part of the day.
S. Simon Jacob (41:27):
Just a few more questions.
I love your designer labelsproject.
What a great idea to come outwith all the series of the
different designers and how tounify art in Italy and the
design, especially with thegrapes and the wines.
(41:49):
It's a beautiful idea,incredible idea.
Alessandro Cellai (41:53):
Thank you.
This is an idea from Mr Taneraithat he is in touch with all of
the major fashion designersthrough his main business that
is a publisher, and when westarted the Sicilian project, he
was thinking about this idea tomake a sort of combination of
(42:17):
the most important and famousfashion designers to produce a
label for the project andwithout any fee for them.
But the opposite we spend thesame amount of money to help the
renovation of museums and hardworks of sicilian culture.
(42:38):
So that that was a beautifulidea.
The special designers wasextremely happy because they
advertised them the project.
They are bringing some of theprofits to the renovation of
(42:58):
museums and hard works onassisting a culture.
S. Simon Jacob (43:03):
Okay, so let's discuss a white for a second.
Tursat is also a veryinteresting project with
Chardonnay and Viognier.
I know it's unusual for Sicily,but it's also, I think, unusual
in the rest of the world.
(43:23):
So tell me a little bit aboutthat.
What influenced that?
Alessandro Cellai (43:31):
First of all, this is the second winery that
we have in Sicily.
It's a little winery, it's onlyfive hectares and it's on the
opposite side of Sicily.
So the Piscotto is thesoutheast, so the Curavimare is
the northwest.
We are near Memphis and we arejust in a beautiful hill, from
(43:59):
80 meters above the sea leveland going down into the sea.
That is a beautiful hillstarting with a limestone in the
top and arriving at the beachwith the last lines.
So we have a variation ofterroir, variation of everything
(44:20):
, and that is the beautifulcombination between the power
and the elegance of Chardonnayand the finesse, the beauty of
the nose and the flavor taste ofIonier, of Ionier.
That is the beautiful,beautiful combination.
(44:40):
And you feel the saltinessbecause we are really close.
We are 50 meters from the lastvine, is 50 meters from the
water.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (44:51):
So it goes like a slope all the way down.
S. Simon Jacob (44:53):
Yes, have you tasted that, Ralph?
Dr. Ralph Madeb (44:57):
Yeah, we made it.
It was our first wine.
It was our first wine, one ofthe first runs, when we made
Fadidi Pichotto.
We made a Cabernet which hasthe Missoni label.
We made the Nero d'Abala, whichis indigenous grape to Sicily,
so we have to make that one thatwas made by Versace.
And then we made the MerlotValentino.
(45:18):
It was Valentino, and becauseAlessandro makes Merlot and then
I told him, if we're alreadydoing that, let's make the white
wine.
And we made white wine.
It ages on the leaves, correctalso.
Yes, 100%.
No, French oak.
Yeah, it's just a veryold-fashioned type of white wine
that ages over time.
(45:38):
It was one of our firsthigher-end, ageable white wines.
S. Simon Jacob (45:45):
Yes, I don't know if I ever tasted that.
I must have.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (45:48):
You must have because it was one of our really
first and obviously we got itbefore we got the reds, so we
(46:12):
were selling it out.
It's a beautiful wine.
I must have.
That wine is that was our firstand it's so unique.
He mentioned a very subtlecomment, but it's really one of
the wines where you're notgetting a fattery, buttery
California Chardonnay.
It has the Chardonnay qualitiesof Burgundy and what you find
on it is that at the back palateyou get this minerality, this
saltiness that is indescribable.
And even if the guy says Idon't know how to taste wine,
(46:33):
it's so evident to him.
And it's such a beautifuldifferent wine.
Oh, we sold out of it a whileago.
Alessandro Cellai (46:37):
we only made one vintage of it and uh I I
want to say special thanks toralph because the past year he
allowed me to make, for thefirst time in my experience, the
Mevushal wine.
That was an amazing experiencefor me because we always made no
(47:00):
Mevushal, but this year Ralphconvinced me and allowed me to
produce, in Valle Piccola,chianti Classico Mevushal and in
Roccheri, frassinello SugareMevushal.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (47:14):
These are the pains of the Mashiach when an
Italian winemaker is remindingus that he made Mevushal wine.
Alessandro Cellai (47:24):
Yeah, that was very because, honestly, and
I'm very excited for two things.
The first thing because whenRav proposed me I was a little
bit scared.
I'm very honest because, as awinemaker, considering a
pasteurization, even for a fewseconds, is still a
(47:44):
pasteurization, so it's a veryhigh temperature for the wine
and it's not always a goodeffect for the wine and it's not
always a good effect, but I cansay tasting the wine, with and
without pasteurization, doesn'tmake any.
At the moment, after eightmonths, seven months, never we
(48:05):
are finding a difference.
S. Simon Jacob (48:09):
That was the question I was going to ask you.
Did you find a difference?
Alessandro Cellai (48:13):
No, not yet.
Not yet.
I'm curious to pace time bytime.
Maybe next year or two years tounderstand, but for the moment
no difference.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (48:26):
That's amazing.
Yeah, by the way, we've beenthrough a couple of renditions.
We started with Pescaia and Ihave Alessandro speak to Pepe
Pescaia all the time.
You know he adopted it veryearly.
I think what happened with thatand the way it happened, was
that the wines are just so goodand the restaurants want them.
So when I first talked toAlessandro, he's like no, no way
(48:49):
, no way, there's no way I'mgoing to take my wine especially
.
Send your vest.
You know it's a very lightergrape and it's not.
You know it's not.
It has big tannins, the skin isnot as big as the cab, the
Merlot, the Nebbiolo, so.
So we actually made one inItaly with an Italian
pasteurization machine.
It was horrible.
(49:10):
The Montepulciano did well withit, because I think it was also
in that same ruggedness but inthe other ones, and we just
threw it out.
Then we went to France and weliterally the machine that we
bought Valle Piccola, which ishis second winery.
That's the machine we used, butwe did three runs before we
introduced it, and I remember,alessandro, I even sent you a
(49:31):
couple of samples ofnon-Mewushal and Mewushal from
the.
Alessandro Cellai (49:37):
No, but I say I want to thank you because I'm
learning, I'm understandingthat this is a very, very
interesting process and at themoment I don't feel any
difference into the wine.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (49:52):
And it came out .
We made the Valle PiccolaChianti Mebuscial.
We also.
We made the Super Tuscan LeSugere.
We made it Mebuscial Salmon.
And you know why?
Because the demand for the highis so high.
So we made Pescaia Arnes.
We made Pescaia NebbioloBarbera and I said, okay, fine,
northern, we have a little bitof a northern Mebusha.
(50:14):
Now I want Tuscan, the heart ofTuscany, and I think this
attests to who Alessandro Celayis.
He's not square in his mind, hethinks outside of the box, he
plays with it, he investigatesit.
And you know what?
The reason I picked him I couldhave picked other people is
because I know he's going toexhaust the options to make sure
that his label is on it, thatthe wine is just as good, and I
(50:36):
think that's what we did.
S. Simon Jacob (50:38):
In 2021, what convinced you to join this
relatively young project?
Malepiccio, yeah.
Alessandro Cellai (50:45):
Yeah, because , as I said before, it was for
me a kind of a challenge for mycareer to bring a new project
rapidly from zero to a very highlevel and in fact, the the with
(51:05):
the vintage 2021.
So I started to work with the2019 vintage.
So after three vintages, the2021 was included in the top 100
wines of the world by WineSpectator.
So from zero to the top 100wines of the world in three
(51:26):
years and we are growing.
We are having a big success andthe wine is very well
appreciated all over around theworld.
We are selling the wine in over40 countries around the world
and it's still a young projectbut with a great material to
(51:49):
become rapidly one of the pointof reference in the Tuscany wine
production.
Dr. Ralph Madeb (51:58):
I mean, if we, hopefully I keep saying we're
going to go, but if you just putit in your mind and your
podcast members, Castellari isas you would imagine you're in
1950, is as you would imagineyou're in 1950, old school, old
(52:18):
brick Tuscan cellar, it's justold vines, it's an older, very
mature winery, how you expectwineries in your mind or
envision it in the movies.
Valle Picciola is brandspanking new, top of the line
optical sorters from France thatare brand new.
It's a brand new, highlyadaptive, highly.
You know, sophisticated nouveauriche, so to speak, sort of
(52:40):
like the Rockefellers and theJamie Dimon.
You know new money, old money,it's old, old winemaking, brand
new winemaking.
And you know the only commondenominator is Alessandro Celai.
And you know the only commondenominator it's Alessandro
Celag, it's Alessandro.
So you have the same winemakermaking these paradoxical one
zero, no much, as the good booksays, and that's the wineries.
S. Simon Jacob (53:04):
So, Alessandro, Dr.
Ralph has been talking to meabout you for a long time.
I've wanted to do this for awhile and we've talked about it
for a little bit and I hadn'treally grasped who we were
talking about until I starteddoing a little bit of research
and then, all of a sudden, Iwent wow, what am I?
(53:24):
You know like I'm humbled byeven you giving me the time to
ask you questions, because it'sso, this is just really so
special.
It's amazing, it's absolutelyokay.
So now it's nearly 30 years ofwinemaking.
I don't want to go into thedetails too much, but what do
(53:47):
you want your legacy to be?
What do you want to beremembered by?
Alessandro Cellai (53:52):
That's a great question.
That is a question.
So, after I think, a goodcareer, my idea and I really
hope, because I have two kids, aboy and girl.
(54:14):
Both are graduated in winemaker, one just finished a month ago
and my daughter will finish intwo months, and my idea is to
bring to them all of my attitude, all of my feelings, all of my
(54:34):
ideas, but of course they haveto bring also their idea by
themselves.
But I hope that they can bring,to bring my philosophy for the
future.
That is my dream.
So I want to bring myphilosophy for the future.
That is my dream.
(54:54):
So I want to leave my legacy tothem.
S. Simon Jacob (55:00):
I love it.
Please, God, they will be ascreative as you.
Alessandro Cellai (55:05):
I consider myself a very fortunate man
because I had a lot of great,beautiful moments in my career.
I had a fantastic moment in mylife, I had the opportunity to
meet wonderful persons like DrRalph and I had great
(55:29):
experiences.
But always what I was thinkingsince my beginning, that always
we can learn, always we can bebetter, always we can do better.
And that was my idea, was mytarget Vintage by vintage, to
(55:52):
try to grow, to make a littlestep on, and that was my never
to consider myself arrived,never to consider the level I
reached as the maximum.
Always we can do better, timeby time is the idea, the
(56:14):
motivation, the attitude must beto create something better,
year by year.
S. Simon Jacob (56:24):
Amazing.
I thank you.
I feel incredibly privileged tohave had you on this podcast
and I always feel privilegedwith Dr Ralph, but it's you're,
you're really.
It's awesome to go through thisand I really look forward to
meeting you in the future.
From Siena's cellars to kosherbarrels, today's journey reminds
(56:57):
us that wine isn't justchemistry, it's conviction, it's
culture, it's community.
Alessandro Cellai crafts thevision, Dr.
Ralph Medeb ensures the bridge,and together they've written a
decade-long chapter in kosherwine history.
But the story doesn't end here.
On our next episode we'll openup another door into the hidden
(57:22):
corners of the wine world Freshterroir, new voices and ideas
that challenge what we thoughtwe knew.
So stay with us, subscribe, ifyou haven't already, and let the
kosher terroir be your passportto the next great glass.
This is Simon Jacob, again yourhost of today's episode of The
(57:44):
Kosher Terroir.
I have a personal request.
No matter where you are orwhere you live, please take a
moment to pray for our soldiers'safety and the safe and rapid
return of our hostages.
Please subscribe via yourpodcast provider to be informed
of our new episodes as they arereleased.
(58:05):
If you're new to The KosherTerroir, please check out our
many past episodes.
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