Tzohar; Making Kosher Wine More Accessible

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In a groundbreaking conversation that challenges conventional thinking about kosher certification, Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein reveals how Tzohar is transforming Israel's wine industry through a revolutionary yet deeply halachic approach to kashrut. 

After years serving Jewish communities around the world, Rabbi Grunstein discusses how Tzohar recognized a critical problem: many Israeli wineries simply couldn't access kosher certification due to impractical requirements that weren't actually mandated by Jewish law. The result? Fewer kosher wines and more Shabbat violations across Israel.

Tzohar's solution maintains all essential halachic requirements—closing on Shabbat, following tithing laws, using only kosher ingredients—while permitting non-religious Jews to handle wine during production, a position with solid grounding in traditional sources. This thoughtful approach hasn't lowered standards; it's raised them by making kosher certification accessible to hundreds of establishments that previously operated outside any kosher framework.

The conversation delves into profound questions about Jewish identity, inclusion, and the purpose of religious authority. As Rabbi Grunstein eloquently argues, "Sometimes a chumrah (stringency) leads to a kula (leniency)" when excessive requirements push people away from observance entirely. By treating winemakers with respect and focusing on partnership rather than policing, Tzohar has created a model of certification based on transparency, professionalism, and genuine care for both halacha and the Jewish people.

Whether you're passionate about wine, interested in contemporary Jewish issues, or simply curious about how religious traditions adapt to modern challenges, this episode offers a refreshing perspective on building bridges rather than walls. Subscribe to hear more thought-provoking conversations that explore the intersection of tradition and innovation in Jewish life.

For Additional Information:

Tzohar Rabbinical Organization: A Religious-Zionist organization dedicated to strengthening Jewish identity among the Israeli public through an inclusive and open approach. The organization promotes accessible and equitable religious services and operates in areas such as marriage, kashrut, conversion, and halachic counseling, with the aim of bridging the gap between religious and secular communities in Israeli society.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein: Director of Development for North America

Website: https://tzohar-eng.org/
Main Office: Israel: [phone]
Tel for donations: 1-800-071-414
Fax: [phone]

Address: 9 HaMelacha Street Lod 7152015 Israel

Email: [e-mail]

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Episode Transcript

S. Simon Jacob (00:09):
Welcome to The Kosher Terroir.
I'm Simon Jacob, your host forthis episode from Jerusalem.
Before we get started, I askthat, wherever you are, please
take a moment and pray for thesafety of our soldiers and the
safe return of all of ourhostages.
If you're driving in your car,please focus on the road ahead.

(00:32):
If you're home, grab a bottleof great kosher wine, sit back,
relax and enjoy this episode ofThe Kosher Terroir.
For decades, koshercertification was largely the
domain of a few long-establishedauthorities, often defined by
formality, rigidity and certaindistance between the certifiers

(00:55):
and the winemakers.
But recently, something new hastaken root in the Israeli wine
scene.
Tzohar, originally founded tobridge the gap between religious
and secular Jews in Israel.
Tzohar has long been known forits warm, halakhically sound and
inclusive approach to Jewishlife cycle moments like weddings
, conversions and communityeducation.

(01:17):
But in a bold and thoughtfulmove, Tzohar has stepped into
the world of koshercertification.
Thoughtful move Tzohar hasstepped into the world of kosher
certification, including overwineries and their wines.
To guide us through thisgroundbreaking moment, I'm
joined by someone who has beendeeply involved in Tzohar's work
and vision, Rabbi YehoshuaGrunstein.

(01:38):
Welcome.
I'm very thankful that you'rehere because I'm pretty
passionate about winecertification and what's been
going on in the industry overthe years.
So, shalom Abrecha, welcomeespecially to the studio.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (01:55):
Thank you very much, Simon.
It's a pleasure to be here.

S. Simon Jacob (01:58):
Tell me a little bit about your background first
.
I'm going to jump into Tzoharas well, but tell me a little
bit about where you come fromand what you've done and your
accomplishments and what haveyou.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (02:09):
So my background, as you can hear from
my accent, is obviouslyAmerican.
My parents made Aliyah when Iwas 11, so the bulk of my life I
spent here.
Having said that, four yearsout of those many years since we
made Aliyah, in 1988, I was theRabbi in Halifax, Nova Scotia,
where, for the first time in mylife, I had an ongoing

(02:31):
interaction with non-religiousJews on a day-to-day basis.
My community had 175 familiesthe Orthodox community in name
of which only four were ShomerShabbos of which only four were
Shomer Shabbos.
So that opened my eyes to a newreality, a reality that I
didn't see in Yerushalayim andEfrat and other places that I
lived, and that is that theJewish people are much more

(02:52):
diverse than you think.
And the other reality that itopened my eyes to was that
Judaism belongs to us all, as welike to say in Tzohar.
How much you take of it is upto your freedom of choice, but
your job is to make itaccessible.
Your job is to make it withzero bureaucracy, if possible,
so that people can access it ifthey so choose.

(03:16):
I returned to Israel in 2007.
I spent 14 years training andplacing rabbis and sending them
to places like Halifax.
But three years ago I startedto see something that bothered
me greatly.
I have been a volunteer forTzohar's marriage program as a
rabbi for many years, and themore and more I went ahead and

(03:37):
officiated at marriages ofnon-religious couples, the more
I saw that the non-religiouscouples are having less and less
a connection to Judaism and Ifelt that, after giving a good
decade plus to the Jews of theDiaspora, it's time to focus on
my homeland, on Israel.
Three years ago I joined Tzoharas its North American director

(04:00):
and Baruch Hashem.
I believe that Tzohar continuesto do much of the work that
you've already described andconstantly growing.
So from marriages we've growninto many different things.
Our recent one-year-old programis we have our own television
channel today, called Mashav,which stands for Mashi Yehudi

(04:22):
B'Yisrael what's Jewish inIsrael and thank God it has
millions of uniques, a lot ofpeople watching it, and we
continue to build, wow.

S. Simon Jacob (04:31):
Tell me a little bit about Tzohar, from its
origin and I discussed a littlebit about what it's based on,
but can you give me a little bitmore in depth?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (04:41):
Tzohar began almost 30 years ago,
after the assassination ofYitzhak Rabin, in which the
tensions between the religiousand the non-religious were at a
sky high, and a bunch of rabbisgot together and felt they had
to do something, and theydecided to start with weddings.
As you know, in Israel the onlylegal way to get married is
Jewish if you're Jewish and onlythrough the rabbinate.

(05:02):
And we saw that both theprocess of registration, the
kala classes, as well as therabbi officiating, had a lot to
be desired.
So we became the proxy of therabbinate.
We said we will register thecouples and, of course, send you
the file complete, but we'll dothe registration, we'll take
care of the kala classes and therabbi, and we ultimately

(05:22):
started with that little projectin which both the registration,
the kala classes and the rabbiofficiating were respectful,
dignified, obviously 100%halachic, but friendly,
professional and accessible, notto mention transparent.
From that we, I would say,spiraled off to something that's

(05:44):
part and parcel of our land ofIsrael, and that is that there's
many, many people of Russianand former Soviet Union descent
that have to prove that they'reJewish when they get married.
So we started a departmentcalled Shorashim.
That's literally like aforensic unit that ultimately
checks if people are Jewish, ifpeople are Jewish and eventually
, when the couples got older, wehave a bar mitzvah program.

(06:06):
We have a funeral program andholiday celebrations for
non-religious, which is MasMinyonim on Yom Kippur in places
that you wouldn't expect itcountry clubs, various places in
Tel Aviv, not to mention JCCs,megillah readings around the
country and all night learningon Shavuos.
Kashrus came later, but I'msure we'll get to that.

S. Simon Jacob (06:28):
So talk to me about this a little bit Like
getting married is gettingmarried.
What's the big deal?
I mean, I don't understand whydoes somebody need to step in
between the Rabbanut and people?
I mean, in America, as anexample, people who are
religious, not religious, getmarried and they're rabbis who

(06:50):
officiate, and what's the sortof issues that happen here.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (06:54):
So I think you just touched on
exactly what we tried to do, andyou mentioned the American
model versus the Israeli model.
In America there's freedom ofchoice you can go to the rabbi
you choose or you can getmarried civilly.
In Israel, there's only one wayto get married and that is
Jewishly and through therabbinate.
So already that choice is takenaway from you.
Number two the registrationprocess is such that no one's

(07:18):
really competing with you, so itwould be, I would say, as warm
as going to the DMV or renewingyour passport.
In other words, at best no onesaid anything inappropriate, but
it doesn't become a spiritualexperience for you to go there.
We try to make it into anexperience, not to mention, we
try to make it as accessible aspossible, without office hours,

(07:40):
say very rigid from nine to four, but rather try to do
everything online and ultimatelycome into the office once.
To say very rigid from nine tofour, but rather try to do
everything online and ultimatelycome into the office once to
sign.
Once all the documentation andeverything was taken care of via
email and WhatsApp, in additionto which we tried to make the
registration process personal.
So each person that registersthrough Tzohar gets a personal

(08:01):
cell number of one of our officestaff and they just have to
call that number.
They don't have to call ageneral number.
The second problem was the Kalaclasses.
Unfortunately and this ispublic, it was on Channel 12
News and other places it's verydifficult to talk about the
topic of family purity whenyou're a religious woman to a
non-religious woman.

(08:22):
Just to give an example, tomake it tangible woman to a
non-religious woman.
Just to give an example to makeit tangible.
A non-religious woman comesinto a religious woman's home
and the religious woman startstalking to her about what it
means to live with a manUnbeknownst to her.
This woman has been living withher boyfriend for the last five
years, so the wholeconversation is sort of obsolete
and not very personal, not tomention the fact that she starts

(08:45):
saying things that are veryoffensive, such as if you don't
keep these laws, you're going todie of childbirth and other
such things.
And number three, the rabbi.
The way basically it workedthrough the rabbinate, the way I
understand it worked, was thatbasically there's a what's-up
list and, like a taxi dispatcheron the day of the wedding, they
say who's available at 8o'clock to go to this and this

(09:07):
hall and the rabbi, with thebest intentions, comes, does the
wedding to the best of hisabilities, but he doesn't know
the couple, he has no keshav andultimately he could say things
under the chuppah exactly thatyou know on the surface of which
are fine, that you know on thesurface of which are fine but
are very offensive to the couplebecause he didn't know.
If I can give an example from arecent wedding, the rabbi was a

(09:30):
very friendly guy.
He tried to make the chuppahvery friendly and he made a few
jokes and it was good.
But he said something there andthis is the way it went.
He said you're about to give aring to your wife.
This is a very serious moment.
After this, if you want to getout of it, it's only through
divorce.
This is not fake.
This is not a vegetarianbarbecue.
I said that's cute Vegetarianbarbecue.

(09:52):
That's an interesting analogyUnbeknownst to this fine rabbi.
The couple was vegan and itoffended them something terrible
.
The way the story got back to mewas that the sister refused to
get married by a rabbi becauseshe decided all rabbis are
offensive.
So basically, we decided thatthis needs to be fixed.

(10:14):
First of all, the registrationhas to be pleasant.
Second of all, the kala classeshave to be tailored to
non-religious.
And thirdly, the rabbi A mustmeet with the couple prior to
the wedding in his living roomin a restaurant and plan out the
wedding together.
Number two, the rabbi mustarrive on time.
You don't know how manycomplaints there are about

(10:34):
rabbis that arrive two hourslate.
And number three, the rabbidoes not take a cent for this
service, which is a huge kiddushHashem in and of itself, a
sanctification of God's name.
But it's a very importantmoment when they put an envelope
in your hand and you said no,thank you, mazel tov, I'm very

(10:56):
happy to be part of it.
Wow, awesome.
So we became the proxy of therabbinate when it came to
marriages and ultimately, allthe couples are registered with
the State of Israel, albeit theydon't step foot in the
rabbinate office per se.
Everything's done by us.

S. Simon Jacob (11:07):
So does that by definition reduce the level of
halachic observance?

Rabbi Yehoshua Gruns (11:14):
Absolutely not.
How so?
We follow all the dictates thatthe Chief Rabbinate has put
forth, when it comes toregistration, when it comes to
the marriage.
When it comes to registration,when it comes to the marriage,
and even if we have a differentopinion, we are their proxy and
we have to follow their rules asper what they decided.
So any halachic rule, obviouslywe follow, but even if it's not

(11:34):
halachic, if the rabbinatedecided on it, we follow it.
You support it.

S. Simon Jacob (11:39):
Okay.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (11:44):
And that's because in Israel it is
illegal to get married any otherway and we're a legal
organization.
So we follow all that therabbinate says, obviously with
sensitivity, with respect andobviously working out any issues
that may come up where coupleshave sensitivities of sorts,
shapes and sizes differencesbetween a wedding that is done

(12:05):
with the help of Sahar and awedding that's done straight
through the rabbinate.
as far as halachic acceptance,as far as halachic acceptance,
there is absolutely nodifference.
The difference is going to be,as we say, in the tapestry
around the halachic wedding theway you receive the couple, the
way you talk to them under thechuppah, the things you say.

(12:25):
Just to give a funny example ofa wedding that I did recently,
a couple asked me a veryinnocent question in our meeting
prior and that was who canstand under the chuppah.
I said whoever you would like,whoever you would like to
surround you.
They said the whole family.
I said if that's what you wouldlike, so the wedding comes.
They said the whole family.

(12:45):
I said if that's what you wouldlike, so the wedding comes.
And I ask for the ring and thechassan whistles with his two
fingers and a nice Germanshepherd comes running up with
the ring around its neck andthat German shepherd stood under
the chuppah because from thechattan and kalaala's
perspective, he's part of thefamily.
Wow, so that would be a tzoharwedding.

(13:07):
Okay, but the halachic partsare all the same Very cool.

S. Simon Jacob (13:11):
All right, let me focus back onto wine, which
is where I'm coming from withthis, with kashrut and wine.
I didn't even know about theother kashrut services you
provided, but let's focus onwine a bit.
What?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunste (13:30):
inspired Tzohar to enter the world of
kosher wine certification.
We entered the world of kosherwine certification for the same
reason that we entered otherthings that Sohar does, and that
is, we want to increase Judaismin the state of Israel,
especially amongst thenon-religious.
There is a very interestingphenomenon in Israel, which is
the following Many of thewineries are in the periphery,

(13:52):
namely not in very remote places, not in very central places.
The built-in problem is thatthey don't have religious people
there that can be mashkichim onthe wine full-time, not to
mention be on staff.
And ultimately, if you're goingto have a mashkich on staff, it

(14:13):
would require two things Numberone, you have to hire him for
the entire year.
And number two, you have toalso, according to other kashfas
organizations, make sure thathe is, that he is the only one
that touches the wine.
Because they go with the pointof view that says as follows Not
only could a non-Jew not touchthe wine that's a halacha but

(14:36):
rather even a Jew, albeit notreligious, not touch the wine,
because of which it was too muchfor them financially, not to
mention just tangibly.
They could not get a mashkiachwho lives in their area.
So many of these places saidwhat do we need it for?
They remain non-kosher, open onShabbos.
Their wine, in and of itselfmeaning its ingredients were not

(15:00):
necessarily kosher, not tomention all the laws that have
to do with the living in Israel,namely the laws of tithing,
matromotu, ma'asrot and orla notto eat from certain fruits for
the first three years or fouryears were not being looked
after.
We came to them and said wewould like you to be kosher.

(15:20):
We would like you to be kosherfirst and foremost because your
clientele should be drinkingkosher wine.
Secondly, you have no realobjection to being kosher.
It's just a problem that wehave to solve together.
So we sat down with them and wesaid let's find solutions for
the problems you have.
The first hurdle was to be openon Shabbos.
We do not give certification toany place open on Shabbos in

(15:43):
Yontiv and therefore that had tobe established right from the
beginning.
Number two we have to make surethat they're not using
forbidden fruit.
For example, fruit that growson a tree for the first three
years is called Orla.
You know how to eat from it.
So we had to make sure thatthey were registered with the
Raban's system that actuallychecks for places and actually

(16:08):
has a database to know whichvineyards are actually permitted
to be eaten from.
Number three the ingredients,obviously, things that go into
wine production, such as thebarrels.
If I can just bring up anexample, the barrels have to be
barrels that are kosher forPesach all year, not barrels
that were used with chametz,have a certification on it and

(16:30):
other things that go into thewine.
So, basically, after speakingto them, it came down to one
issue when you make wine,obviously like you make a
chicken soup, sometimes you haveto stir it, you have to do
things, and it came down to theissue of can a non-religious Jew
touch the wine?
So, truth be told, today, withmachinery, it's very rare that
anyone touches the wine.

(16:50):
But we had to insist that A nonon-Jews are involved in the
production of wine, jews only.
And number two, we did permitwhat we call a non-religious Jew
to touch the wine.
We based ourselves on the factthat, first and foremost, on a
general level, we in thereligious Zionist community

(17:13):
consider a non-religious Jew aJew.
In other words, we count himfor a minion, we give him an
aliyah in shul.
So for all states and purposes,he's a Jew.
Number two it happens to be thatin the laws of wine and kosher
winemaking, the code of Jewishlaw did not quote the opinion of

(17:33):
the Rashba that says that evena non-religious Jew should not
touch the wine.
He did not quote that in thecode of Jewish law.
So it's not a halacha, that'sclear-cut.
Now, obviously, kashrusorganizations have different
policies on that point and werespect them all.
But we felt that we can gain alot out of this little.

(17:57):
I wouldn't even call it aleniency, because the Code of
Jewish Law doesn't even paskinit.
First of all, the places willnot work on Shabbos.
Second of all, the wine in andof itself would be kosher in all
its ingredients.
It would be under supervision.
Number three, all the laws oftithing would be looked after.
The only price quote-unquoteyou may pay is that the wine may

(18:19):
be touched by a Jew, albeit anon-religious Jew, and there's
many, many that say it's not aproblem, and obviously we relied
on them because we gained somuch by doing it.

S. Simon Jacob (18:32):
I kind of feel that the whole issue of holding
a person who touches the wine,especially within a winery and
in many instances this is thewinemaker himself that is held
to this standard Winemaking isan art form.

(18:54):
People who make wine areextremely hands-on people, and
to tell them that you can'ttouch the wine and what you need
to do is talk through amashkiach to do all of the steps
, many of them are in agreement.
Some of them get so turned offby the whole process that they

(19:19):
basically throw up their handsand say I don't need this.
I'm a winemaker, I've studiedlong and hard to be a winemaker
and I'm a Jew and I'm insultedthat people consider me, you
know, as if I'm a, a pagan orwhat.
Have you touching my wine?

(19:41):
So what they do is they end upcreating this humrah, and
apparently it wasn't so.
It's only been so since theearly 80s that the Rabbanut has
even held this opinion.
There's a khumrah that they'veestablished in order to do this,

(20:02):
order to do this, and in doingso, what they've done is they've
taken wines that arehalachically kosher and pushed
them into an area of them beingdoraita, not kosher, based on
the Torah, not kosher, becausethe winemakers now don't follow

(20:23):
anything.
They actually make wine onShabbat or they harvest grapes
on Shabbat or they do otherthings that they won't follow.
In doing that, you're takingsomething that would have been
kasher, that you held them to achumrah, and now the wine is not

(20:45):
kosher doraita.
And it just bothers me becausethere are so many Jews in Israel
who drink wine, including someOrthodox Jews, many Orthodox
Jews who basically say, no, thewine is.
You know, these are made by Jews, they're kosher and actually

(21:09):
they don't know the detailsabout how the wine was made.
So we're actually causing aproblem for so many more Jews by
creating this khumrah that Ireally believe that it's.
I know there's always a desireto go malim b'kodesh, to go up

(21:33):
in Kedushah, to try to raise thelevel or raise the need to
provide kosher services, but Ijust I feel like this is such an
important element in today'sworld and there's so many
wineries that I believe wouldbecome Doraita kosher,

(21:57):
officially kosher.
And it's not just Doraita.
I'm not saying that Tzohar'swines are not Doraita kosher, or

(22:19):
even not rabbinically kosherHashkachot all the different
certifications that come onwines in order to establish them
as a real mover within theIsraeli wine industry and also
in the global wine industry.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (22:38):
I just want to make a distinction on
the three things that you justsaid.
The first thing was, I think,100% accurate.
Sometimes a chumrah, as theGemara says, ati liyedei kula.
It brings you to a kula.
So you take a chumrah that evena Jew that touches the wine,
albeit a non-religious Jew,makes the wine not kosher and

(22:59):
that brings to kulas.
We're open on Shabbos.
We don't care about tithing.
Now the wine is 100% not kosher, according to everyone.
So that's a very good exampleand that's what we tried to fix.
You also mentioned a Talmudicterm of Ma'alin BaKodesh, which
is, I think, the result of whatwe did.
We actually brought up thelevel of all these boutique

(23:20):
wineries to be kosher, closed onShabbos, and their wine, in and
of itself, now is undersupervision.
We obviously have that problemof a mashkiach living there, so
he comes in from time to time,obviously, but we also insisted
on cameras being put in so thatwe can be supervising it even if
we're not physically there.
So I think definitely, ma'alinBaKodesh was actually achieved.

(23:42):
Your gold we have brought up thewine to a level of kiddushah
and indeed I think that wine isvery different than every other
beverage.
As you know, halachically, winehas its own bracha, berei,
prihagefen, the only beveragethat you don't make a shahakol
on.
Basically, wine is used forsacramental purposes very often,
not to mention at parties andother places.

(24:04):
It's not just another food item, and we have to increase the
level of kosher wine in acountry where the majority of
people are, thank God, jewish,and therefore we tried very hard
to bring up standards, notbring down standards, and one of
the ways is exactly what youjust described.

S. Simon Jacob (24:24):
Baruch Hashem.
Thank you, I am so happy I gotyou to come to this podcast, but
I'm even happier because Ihonestly didn't know where to
turn.
And then I heard from somebodyelse specifically about Sohar's
program and I said wow, I knewabout your weddings.

(24:48):
I have had some children who'vebeen married under Tzohar and
I'm just so thrilled about thewhole wine certification move.
I really am.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (25:05):
Thank you.
We actually are very proud thatthe result of the fact that we
got into this industry is thatthere's more kosher wine, less
violation of Shabbos and, mostimportantly, more and more
people can now enjoy the beautyof one of the seven species that
Israel was blessed with, andthat is, of course, grapes, or,

(25:27):
to be more precise, the wineproduced from grapes.

S. Simon Jacob (25:31):
How does Tzohar's philosophy in halacha
and community engagementtranslate to your approach to
kosher supervision for wine?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (25:40):
I believe that our approach in
kosher supervision is exactlythe same as in other places, and
that is that we have to havefour things that go into it.
Number one it has to beAllahically 100%.
Obviously.
Without that we're not arabbinic movement, and indeed I
always tell rabbis in trainingyou have to be able to say no
sometimes.

(26:01):
That's what makes you into arabbi, not just yes.
Number two professionalism.
The people in front of youdon't know a thing about you or
about Judaism sometimes, and ifyou act unprofessional, then
that can make and break it.
Number three transparency.
They have to know exactly whatthey're getting.
They have to know exactly whatit entails to make a winery

(26:22):
kosher.
They have to know exactly howmuch the price is for this
service and there could be noshtick, quote-unquote.
It has to be 100% transparent.
Transparent and, I'll add,consistent.
Namely, it can't be that you'recharging one winery one price
and another winery another price.
And finally, and this is veryimportant, I would call it in

(26:42):
Hebrew yachas ishi or, inEnglish, personal touch.
Each winery, as you said, eachwinemaker, is very proud of his
wine, he's very proud of hisproduction.
You have to be sensitive to hispersonal needs, not negotiating
halacha, one ayodah, but at thesame time not negotiating

(27:05):
menshlachkeit.
The best compliment I ever heardabout the kashfus of Tzohar was
from someone that didn't know Iwas associated with Tzohar and
I just asked him how do theytreat you?
And he said to me the following.
I'll say it in Hebrew andtranslate he said they come

(27:27):
often and they're very nice.
First and foremost, they comeoften.
There's no kashfas supervision.
Without supervision, you haveto come often and they're very
nice.
First and foremost, they comeoften.
There's no cost for supervision.
Without supervision, you haveto come often.
We developed an app systemthat's GPS sensitive so we know
exactly how many times amashkiach comes into any of our
establishments, per week, permonth, etc.
And number two, you can be niceat the same time.

(27:48):
Hello, how are you?
How's your kids?
I'm not just here to give you aservice, I'm also a mensch, I'm
a fellow Jew and I care aboutyou like any other fellow Jew.

S. Simon Jacob (27:57):
I'm not just here to catch you breaking the
rules, which is another wholethought process.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (28:05):
You're 100% right.
I actually just came from arestaurant here in Yerushalayim
under our supervision and I metwith the chef and I asked him
and he said to me that one ofthe things he saw with Zohar is
that he always thought therabbinate's synonymous word was
no.
I don't know if it's true ornot, I don't know because I
never dealt with the supervisionof the rabbinate, I wasn't a

(28:27):
restaurant owner, but that's hisperception.
And he said with Tzohar, theanswer always was let's work
with you, and not everything hewanted he got.
But ultimately it was what areyour wants?
What are your quests?
How do you make a successfulrestaurant and how do we ensure
that it remains kosher at thesame time?

S. Simon Jacob (28:46):
So you brought up before that.
One of the things I've taughtmy mashkikim is that they need
sometimes to say no, and that'san important thing.
But I'll be honest, it's soeasy to say no.
It takes thought and I've onlyseen you know, I've seen the

(29:06):
highest level Rebaim.
They're the ones who come upwith kulas leniencies that work
incredibly well because they'rethoughtful about what they've
done.
It's really important.
Anybody can produce a book thaton each page it says no, no, no

(29:28):
, no, no.
The trick is to be able to sayyes and have it be halachically
acceptable and reasonable.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (29:36):
As many rabbis have said, you don't
have to learn Torah to say no.
You have to learn Torah to knowwhen to say no and when to say
yes.

S. Simon Jacob (29:46):
Right.
How does Tzohar train or selectits mashkihim for work in the
wine industry?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (29:52):
Very carefully.
They have to go throughtraining with us.
They can't just become amashkiach.
Obviously, they have to gothrough a proper course to
become a mashkiach in generaland then for wineries in
particular, there's a wholeprotocol that every winery has
to follow and ultimately theyhave to know it well and they
have to know how to implement itin each winery.

(30:13):
So obviously both the training,not to mention the preconceived
knowledge of Kashrus, togetherwith the specific training of
Tzohar, would make them a propermashkiach on our behalf.
In addition to the mashkiach,we have supervisors over
mashkiachim.
So for every area there's asupervisor over the mashkiachim
who both is in touch with themashkiachim and the places to

(30:36):
make sure that everything isworking.

S. Simon Jacob (30:38):
Area means physical location area.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (30:40):
We divide Israel into locations and
basically we have mifakchim, aswe call them in Hebrew
supervisors over areas.

S. Simon Jacob (30:49):
What kind of relationship does Tzohar aim to
build with the winemakers andthe winery staff?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (30:55):
We would like the winemakers and
the winemaking staff to feelthat we are there as their
partners.
They have to make the bestpossible wine and we have to
make it the most kosher, andtherefore we're not at odds with
each other.
Quite frankly, we fill in eachother's gaps.
We give the kashfra supervisionand they give the wine, and I

(31:19):
think that is the relationshipwe would like to have.
In other words, they wouldwelcome us in.
They would say you're helpingus by making it kosher and we're
helping them by making theirwine more available to a wider
crowd, because now it's kosher.
Many more're helping them bymaking their wine more available
to a wider crowd, because nowit's kosher, many more Jews can
drink from it.
Please.

S. Simon Jacob (31:35):
God, many boutique wineries complain about
bureaucracy or high fees withtraditional certifications.
How does Tzohar address thoseconcerns?
You did, you talked about alittle bit, but can you hone in
a little more about that?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (31:48):
We like to say in Tzohar that we
like to be 100% halachic andzero bureaucracy.
In this perspective, I thinkthat any one of our
establishments that are underour kashrus meets with our staff
.
We sit down together and weexplain to them in a very
transparent way.
We looked at your facility.
This is what needs to be done,first and foremost.

(32:11):
If it was not kosher, we haveto kosher it.
That's also something that willhave to go into it.
Second of all, you'll have tobe closed on Shabbos.
Third of all, there'll besupervision on the ingredients
you use and what not.
And these are the things thatcome out.
But I think that I haven't yetheard a story of a winery that
had a problem with the actualcriteria or the rules.

(32:34):
That's never the problem.
The problem usually is the waythe rules are conveyed.
When you come and you say thisis the way it is and there's no
negotiation, and take it orleave it and you need me more
than I need you, there's no realwillingness on the other side
to sit with you.
But if you come in and you sayI'm here to give you a service

(32:58):
and I'm happy to present it toyou, there's much more of a
willingness to listen and thankGod in many cases to implement
it, and the gain from thewinery's perspective is amazing.
They now have opened up a wholenew clientele which hopefully
will increase the value of whatthey sell and what they're able
to offer 100%.
What do we gain?
We gain less Shabbos violationin the State of Israel and more

(33:21):
kashrus.

S. Simon Jacob (33:22):
From that perspective, is there a question
about offering Sohar certifiedwines in restaurants that are
certified by other hashkachot?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunst (33:36):
Obviously it's up to every hashkacha and
they can go right ahead and makea decision.
It's hard for me to believe.

S. Simon Jacob (33:42):
Have you encountered that?
Have you encountered anythingup to now?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (33:45):
I have not encountered it and I'll
just give an example, counteredit and I'll just give an example
.
I do fly in my position a lotand therefore I frequent the
frequent fire clubs in theairport.
There is wine available topeople coming in.
Not all of it is what we callmevushal, namely cooked wine

(34:10):
which anyone can touch.
It's actually wine that wouldbe subject to not having a
non-Jew pour it for you and it'sserved.
So, from this perspective,obviously it's under supervision
of whatever Koshra'sorganization it is.
They have no problem with it.
So it's hard for me to believethat they would have a problem
with our wine, which isbasically the same thing, but
minus.
What do I mean?
Minus?
It's less of a problem because,as I said earlier A there's not

(34:34):
a lot of touching of the winewhen you're making it.
B the actual wine bottle thatyou get may not even be
something that was ever touchedby anyone, let alone a Jew that
was not religious.
So it's hard for me to believethere would be an issue.
I have not heard of an issue.
Now I want to be very clear.
If you want to be machmir inyour own home and say listen, I

(34:57):
don't want wine that was touchedby a non-religious Jew to come
into my home.
That is your prerogative andGod bless you.
We have to, in Tzohar, not justthink about a home, we have to
think about the state, not justthink about a home.
We have to think about thestate and we have to ask
ourselves how do we make morekashrus in the state?
So if it's impossible, it'simpossible.
What are you going to do?
We can't give kashrus to pig,whether we like it or not.

(35:19):
But if it's possible, withinhalachic frameworks that we're
comfortable with, not just that,there's a mat here, somewhere
there's a kula that we're goingto take out of a drawer, but
this we feel is ikar hadin.
As I said, the Shulchan Aruchdoes not paskin this particular
halacha in the halachos per seThen I believe we have not only

(35:40):
a right we have an obligation toincrease kashrus in the State
of Israel Shkach.

S. Simon Jacob (35:49):
it's amazing.
As far as I'm concerned, it'sabsolutely amazing.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (36:01):
Have you received any feedback from
wineries about how this differsfrom their past experiences with
other certifiers?
Some wineries were never kosherbecause they found out what it
entails and they said forget it,what do I need this for?
Other wineries did get back tous.
They were previously under andit was much more of a process
and expensive and whatnot, andthey felt that working with
Sohar is indeed working withsomeone.
Namely, they are working withan organization that says we

(36:21):
would want to work with you tomake you successful.
Now, sometimes, if you're goingto say listen, I'm going out on
Shabbos and it's my day toharvest the grapes and
unfortunately we can't give youa kashrus, we can't allow that.
On the other hand, there wasnot only a willingness to work
with us on their side, they feltthere was a willingness for us
to work with them.
We want you to be successful,we just want it to be kosher and

(36:45):
so far the feedback has beenwonderful.
And not to mention the factthat, if I can quote one of my
dear friends, he said because ofyou, I have 300 more
establishments I can eat inIsrael, and that in and of
itself is important.
In other words, 300 places that, for reasons that are much

(37:05):
bigger than this podcast, didnot and were not kosher, are now
kosher after going through aprocess of closing on Shabbos,
koshering their establishmentand whatnot.
And thank God, there's moreplaces to eat and there's more
places to drink wine around thestate of Israel.

S. Simon Jacob (37:21):
You're mentioning about how people
approached winemakers in thepast.
There's a very important thingthat you didn't mention.
It's not only how that you werewilling to talk to them and
partner with them, it's that youeven recognize them as being

(37:42):
Jews, and that's somethingthat's huge.
And I'll be honest, when I gointo a restaurant and a young
wine sommelier or waiter walksover to me and says, you know

(38:03):
like look, you've ordered thiswine.
I'm not Shomer Shabbat.
Do you want to open the bottleyourself?
There is no better opportunitythat I feel that to be able to
say to them you know, I'm not abetter Jew than you, we're both
Jews.
I thank you very much forasking me the question, because

(38:24):
I know some people would besensitive to it, but as far as
I'm concerned, it would be aprivilege for me, as long as
you're a Jew.
As I'm concerned, it would be aprivilege for me, as long as
you're a Jew, to open my winefor me, because, as far as I'm
concerned, I'm no better Jewthan you are.
I would love you to become morereligious, I would love you to

(38:44):
become Shomer Shabbat and,please God, in the future you
will.
I don't want to stand in yourway of doing that, but I also
want you to know that I respectyou as a Jew.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (38:55):
So I want to actually respond to what
you just described sobeautifully, which happens in so
many places around Israel.
I think that it's wonderfulthat there's a dialogue.
In other words, a non-religiousJew says are you more
comfortable if you open the wine?
And you say to him no, actuallyit's okay with me if you open

(39:17):
the wine.
I think that the fact thatthere's a dialogue is much
better than what we see on thenews most of the time, where
people are each other's headsand never talk to each other.
Now I want to be honest.
If a family at a restaurant isoffered, would you like to open
the wine?
And they say yes, then no harmdone.
The harm is done when theopposite happens, namely,

(39:39):
there's wine on the table andyou say to your non-religious
guests hands off, I'm the onlyone that's going to open the
wine.
You are offending them,something terrible, and from
that chumrah will come much morehatred later.

(39:59):
Just to give you a halachicprecedent of what I just said,
it was a great Jew that livednot far from where we're sitting
, rav Shlomo Zalman Oyerbach,who was asked the following
question you invite someone topaint your house or to fix
something and he's non-religious.
Do you offer him a drink.
The problem is he's going totake a drink without making a
bracha, so maybe you are, inessence, violating the law of

(40:23):
you're putting a stumbling blockin front of a blind person or
you're helping to do an avera byoffering him a drink.
Rav Shlomo Zalman Oyerbach'sanswer was look at the bigger
picture.
The bigger picture is there's abigger stumbling block, and
that is he's going to say to allhis friends when I go to

(40:43):
religious homes, they don't evenoffer me a cup of water, which
means he's going to hatereligion, he's going to hate
Torah, he's going to hate Torah,he's going to hate religious
Jews.
So you gain much more than youlose and that's what Rav Shlomo
Zalman Oyerbach poskined in thatparticular instance.
You can agree, you can disagree, but that's what he poskined.
I believe that when you tell anon-religious Jew you're not

(41:06):
Jewish enough to touch my wine,you are taking into your hands a
very big responsibility, thatyou are pushing this person far
further than where he was.
Therefore, I think thatsometimes, indeed if it's a
non-Jewish waiter, we have nochoice.
That's the halacha and we,whether we like it or not, we

(41:29):
will go ahead and surrender tohalacha.
But when it comes to a Jew, afellow Jew, albeit non-religious
.
I believe that throughout thegenerations, rabbis have given
their opinion on it and there'sa lot to rely on, just like we
rely on it for many other things, and I can just very easily

(41:49):
quote we make him part of aminion, we call him up to the
Torah.
We don't believe he's a non-Jewwhen it comes to the laws of
Eruven.
And I'll just put another oneon the table, since we just came
through the holiday of Pesach.
I don't know many Jews thatrefrain from inviting

(42:10):
non-religious Jews to theirweekday Yom Tov meals.
There's a prohibitionrabbinically to invite a non-Jew
to a weekday Yom Tov mealbecause maybe you're going to
add food for him and you onlyallow to cook for Jews on Yom
Tov.
I don't know of anyone, anyonethat said well, if he's

(42:32):
non-religious, he's consideredlike a non-Jew, so therefore I
can't invite him, except forShabbos, chol Moed or if, like
Shvi Yisho, pesach came out onShabbos.
I've never heard such a thing,so I never understood how.

S. Simon Jacob (42:44):
I'm almost afraid to broadcast this because
I'm telling you some peoplewill say wow, I never thought
about that.
We can't invite these peopleanymore.
I hope they will invite them.
I hope not.
I hope the opposite will happen.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (42:59):
Namely , we consider them Jews for all
states and purposes, includingwhen it comes to wine.
Now, you have to remember wineis not an Isser De O'Reita, a
biblical prohibition.
That's only if the wine wasused for sacramental purposes,
for idol worship.
It's an Isser De Rabbanan for anon-Jew to touch your wine.
That's called Stam Yenam.
This is already three timesremoved.
So being Machmir on this wouldhave terrible ramifications on

(43:24):
having, unfortunately, asituation where much more is
lost down the line.
Now let's just think about thisfor a moment.
If we're going to consider anon-religious Jew like a goy
excuse me for the expression andwe're not going to invite him
for a weekday yontav meal, youare not exposing him to the
seder or to the beauty of yoursukkah, or to the beauty of your

(43:47):
milichik meal on Shavuos, ifthat is your custom, whatever it
might be, or to the beauty of aRosh Hashanah dinner.
You understand.
You are closing Judaism forthis fellow Jew and all for a
Chumrah, all for a Chumrah.
I don't think it's worth it.
Now, if a family in and ofitself wants to be Machmer and

(44:07):
they go to the store and theybuy only Mevusha wine,
previously cooked wine,gezintahet as we say in Yiddish.
Let them do what they wouldlike to do that does not have a
terrible influence on the restof the state.
But as an organization that'snational, we have to look at the
kashrus of the state, not justthe individual, and say how do
we increase more love forJudaism and more kashrus in the

(44:31):
state of Israel?
And that's what we try to do,even within the confines of
wineries.
State of.

S. Simon Jacob (44:36):
Israel, and that's what we try to do, even
within the confines of wineries.
Under the wineries that youprovide certification, do any of
them create Mavushal wines?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (44:50):
I'm assuming they do.
Actually it's interesting whenI was serving as a rabbi in
Canada, as I mentioned earlier,it seemed like most of the wines
that were available wereMavushal, and for good reasons,
because many people hadnon-Jewish help at home and
ultimately that solved a lot ofproblems In Israel, thank God.
In a Jewish country.
I would say, if you go into anysupermarket at that level, not
even to a wine store, I'd sayit's pretty equal in terms of

(45:11):
Mavushal, non-mavushal.
I don't do the shopping but Iput away the shopping and many a
times I see that in terms ofour wines it's mixed.

S. Simon Jacob (45:19):
The certifications in America have a
knee-jerk reaction that nomatter who's touching the wine,
the only wine they will allow atan event, the only wine they
will allow in a restaurant or ina public situation, is Mavushal
wine.
I've spoken directly tocertifications in America where

(45:43):
we've wanted to do an event, avery special event, and they've
been high-end wine events andI've said to them there will be
a yeshiva boy who comes in.
He won't let that bottle out ofhis hands.
We're not reusing theseovernight.
This isn't a situation wherewe've got to store it in a

(46:04):
restaurant overnight or whathave you, and there's questions
as to what happens to thebottles.
Then this is a situation wherethis from Jew opens the bottle,
pours it for people, never putsthe bottle down.
Nobody else touches the bottles.
Okay, no, absolutely not.

(46:24):
We do not want to set anegative precedent and I'm like
okay, how, how, how do you getto that stand?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (46:34):
I really I was a Rabbi only for
four years and in Canada and Ireally didn't deal with kashruas
on this level in America.
So I don't know what you'redealing with.

S. Simon Jacob (46:45):
That's what it is.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (46:46):
You know better than me.
It's crazy.
Maybe there's concerns therethat there aren't here, but I
will tell you one thing aboutAmerica that's different from
Israel.
In America you can make rulesand regulations.
That does not influence all ofAmerica.
It influences the people thateat your kashrus or your
community.
In Israel, you're no longertalking about a community,

(47:08):
you're talking about a countryand therefore decisions like
that will have influence notjust on what's going to be at
the wine event, but it's goingto have influence on the
Jewishness of the country.
So that's something we have toconsider here that we don't
necessarily consider there andtherefore I don't know America
better.
I'd never give kashas inAmerica.

(47:30):
I take your word for it thatthat's what they say In Israel.
I could tell you that if thatwould be the policy, you would
ultimately have terribleramifications on the Jewishness
of the country, on therelationship of non-religious
Jews to their Judaism and totheir religious Jewish
counterparts, and it could be aterrible thing, as I said

(47:52):
earlier, sometimes a chumra atili yedei kula, and therefore we
have to think of those things.

S. Simon Jacob (47:58):
Terrible thing, as I said earlier sometimes a
chumra ati li yedei kula, andtherefore we have to think of
those things.
There are some certificationsthat in Israel are now requiring
that if something is poured bythe glass rather than the bottle
, that those bottles are not,they must be mefushel.
So there are certificationswithin certain restaurants that

(48:20):
are now requiring that Everycertification can do what they
really think and I'm sure you'llinvite them here and they'll
explain what they're doing.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (48:30):
We can explain what we're doing
because we saw too many wineriesthat are not kosher and, as the
saying goes, not for the rightreasons.
Meaning if they would come andsay we have to work on Shabbos
and we have to be open onShabbos, then we'll have to
throw our hands up and say I'msorry, but if they said this was
the reason, we found solutionsfor it and, as I said, the gain

(48:52):
became bigger than the loss.
If there isn't even a loss, ifyou call it a loss, then the
gain was much bigger.
In other words, now they'rekosher in terms of both
ingredients and the laws oftithing.
They're also not working onShabbos and the one thing is
they're not keeping a chumrahthat's not even paskind in the
shulchan orach.

S. Simon Jacob (49:14):
How does Tzohar handle more complex kosher
issues such as Mevushal,non-jewish involvement in
processing and Shemitahir wines?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (49:23):
We have a very strict protocol
about how do we givecertification to wineries and we
sit down with them and weexplain basically everything in
a seven-year process.
You have to remember that theseven-year process in Israel is
such that ultimately, there'sdifferent tithing, given the
third year, the sixth year,versus the other years, not to

(49:44):
mention the Shemitah year in andof itself, and obviously we
have to be with our hands on theball, in other words, we have
to come along and say listen, ina year from now, at Shemitah,
what are you planning to do?
Are you going to do HeterMechira?
Are you going to do El TsarBeitin, or what not?
In addition to which, we haveto make sure that even the
fourth year, what's called NetaRivai is looked after.

(50:06):
Obviously, all those thingshave to be thought out and I can
tell you that the protocol isnine pages long.
It's explained very explicitlyto every winery owner and
obviously we, as Tzohar, helpthem to maintain everything.
But, most importantly, you haveto be as transparent and as

(50:28):
clear that you're about to gointo a new industry.
Quote, unquote You're going tobe kosher.
That means the value of yourwine will go up, but it does
require proper preparation andultimately, our mashkiachim have
to be with their hands on theball because, at the end of the
day, any kashrus you can call itany name you wish is only as

(50:51):
good as the mashkiach in thefield.
If he's not doing his job, thenyou can throw that hashkacha
down the drain.
If he's doing his job, then youcan eat kosher food.
It all comes down, at the endof the day, to the mashkiach and
therefore that mashkiach has tobe the right person, trained
properly and know how tologistically ensure that

(51:13):
everything coming out of thiswinery is kosher.

S. Simon Jacob (51:17):
You do use cameras?
Yes, wow, so tell me a littlebit about that.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (51:22):
So because we're talking about many
boutique wineries in theperiphery, it's just such that
people don't necessarily livearound there.
So for a mashkiach to comeevery day and to see what's
happening is just physicallyvery, very taxing and almost
impossible.
So therefore we insisted onputting in cameras with a proper

(51:43):
memory stick that's big enough,obviously, so that the
mashkiach, even from the comfortof his home, can see what's
happening every day.
So that the Moshkiach, evenfrom the comfort of his home,
can see what's happening everyday.
For example, after Shabbos hecan look and see that if on
Shabbos God forbid anyone wasworking, if so, we will of

(52:03):
course take away our kashrus.
Not to mention the fact that,obviously, because of the laws
of tithing and whatnot, therecould be a situation where you
have a certain part of thewinery that's under one rules
and regulations like the year ofNetter Ravai does not require
Tumult and Masrotze and anotherpart that does you have to make

(52:25):
sure nothing was mixed up,everything's with a seal and
whatnot.
So those cameras help ustremendously to overcome the
geographic distance from wherewe are, and obviously the
mashgichim are told not just.
The cameras are there for show,they're not wallpaper.
You should look at them fromtime to time to see what's
happening.

(52:46):
Physical visits are happeningas well, but the cameras are
there all the time.
Now I'll be honest when there'sa camera, you're a deterrent.
It's a deterrent meaning I givethe benefit of the doubt to
every winery.
They're going to follow therules and regulations, but the
fact that there's a camera thereis really up to you.
If you're doing nothing wrong,you can care less that there's a
camera going ahead and filmingyou.

(53:07):
If you're worried, then you'regoing to be even more worried if
there's a camera.

S. Simon Jacob (53:12):
Have you found anybody trying to sneak around
you, around your halachot oraround your certifications that
you've defined purposefully?
I mean, I know there are peoplewho make mistakes
non-purposefully.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunst (53:24):
Obviously , within the history of Tzohar
certification that started since2018, there were places that we
had to take away kashrus forvarious reasons and uh, part of
the time it was because theywere not following the rules and
regulations that we set forth.
We gave them a warning, theydidn't listen and uh, look, at

(53:45):
the end of the day, we're takingupon ourselves what we call, in
yeshivish akhryas, an englishresponsibility.
People are drinking winebecause of you.
If you are not comfortable withthe winery because of what you
just described, thenunfortunately we have to take
away the kashras.
Now, I'm not talking aboutmistakes.

(54:06):
Mistakes happen in every kashrasorganization.
There's no such thing as voidof mistakes Never happened.
The question is always twoNumber one was it a mistake?
And number two, how did you fixit so it doesn't happen again?
I'll just give you an example.
I happen to be on PesachEschaler, in residence in a
hotel.
This year, as you know, erevPesach was on Shabbos.

(54:27):
One of the solutions for hotelswhere no chametz were brought
in was to use egg matzah forFriday night and Shabbos morning
, up until the time you can eatchametz because Ashkenazim at
least consider it partialchametz.

S. Simon Jacob (54:38):
I'm Sphardi so I have no problem, you're.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunste (54:40):
Sphardim , so you have no issue.
I have no issues.
So you could have eaten ituntil the 10th hour.
So we had a mixed crowd so wedidn't serve, obviously, egg
matzah on Pesach.
Well, lo and behold, onemorning at breakfast there was
egg matzah.
Now, it happened to bediscerned in its color, so we
knew it was egg matzah.
I wasn't in charge of thekashfris at this hotel.

(55:00):
There was another organizationinvolved, but I saw it.
I alerted the mashkiach.
He right away got his staff totake it away, put out the
regular matzahs, make sure thosematzahs were not put out again
till the end of Pesach.
And as the saying goes, he didhis job properly.
He was on the bull, took careof it.
That's a mistake.
It's very innocent.

(55:21):
The matzah looks like matzah.
What do you want from the poorworkers?
The problem is going to be ifthe egg matzahs are put out, the
mashkiach is nowhere to befound, not to mention the fact
that the staff does nothingabout it, because then a mistake
will breed bigger mistakes.
But if they see, wow,meshkiach's on the ball, he
knows what he's doing, thenthese mistakes don't happen.

(55:41):
In the Israeli army, where Iserved, there used to be a line.
Every time they told you anorder, they would say hapkudot
nichtavu bedam.
In other words, because someonewas killed, we made an order.
What was the order for?

(56:11):
It said no one else would getkilled.
So, for example, when you weredoing rifle practice and you
were practicing to shoot a gun,they always told you, whatever
happens, always point the gunstraight, never move to the
right or left it, just regulateyourself to do it.
Because obviously there wasonce a time, with a loaded gun,
that someone went ahead, turnedto the side and maybe killed
someone.
That almost happened to me, bythe way, by someone next to me
who didn't listen, pointed hisgun towards me and asked a
question to the commander.
The commander was on the ballright away, kicked the gun such

(56:34):
that it wouldn't point at me andsaved my life.
The gun was loaded, by the way,so I had to bench go, as you
can well imagine, and ultimatelythat is a very good example.
Mistakes happen, but thequestion is do you learn from
your mistakes or not?
So sometimes it's a mistake andwe obviously will take care of
it, but sometimes a mistake andanother mistake and another

(56:56):
mistake will require us to takeaway the kashrus.
We're not happy about it, butit does happen.
We do have what we call a very,very updated list on our
website about whichestablishments are kosher and
which are not, and it's updateddaily.
In other words, if somethingwas taken off, we will make sure

(57:17):
to take it off our website.
So there's no misunderstandingsIf it's not under the Koshers
of Tzohar, it's not under theKoshers of Tzohar anymore.
If it is, it's on the list.
How many restaurants?
We have over 350 establishmentsunder our Koshers today.

(57:44):
Have you seen a growing demandamong winemakers to consume and
customers for Sohar's kosherwine certification?
If it's not kosher, then you'relosing clientele.
Part of any trip up north, forexample, is for any family.
One day we go to a winerybecause that's where a lot of
wine grows.
So, God willing, the war willbe over.
The whole north will be open.
There'll be many more wineriesthat can open their doors.

(58:10):
Ultimately, wine is indeedsomething that any winery would
like to make it appeal to asmany people as possible, not
just to a specific clientele.
So therefore, I do see a demandthat grows because people say
hey, we want our wine to bekosher so that during the week
from Sunday through Friday, wecan open it up to every Jew and
not just to a segment of theJewish people.

S. Simon Jacob (58:32):
How do you see Sohar's certification affecting
the international kosher winemarket, especially among
Zionists and modern Orthodoxconsumers, where Monopoly is not
good, unfortunately?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (58:41):
When you have a monopoly, you never
try to get better, because whyshould you?

(59:02):
At the end of the day, you'rethe only act in town.
As the old saying goes, youneed me more than I need you.
I don't need to do anything foryou.
You brought up at the beginningof the conversation how in
America it's so simple you go arabbi that you choose and you
get a wedding done because youhave choice.
In Israel, by definition, youdon't have choice.
That is not a very good thingto have.
I think that competition is onlygood for kashrus.
The more there's competition,the better each kashrus

(59:24):
organization becomes in two waysNumber one in what we call the
customer service to theestablishment the nicer they are
, the better they are.
And number two to the consumer,in other words, consumers that
are concerned about kashrus andlike to know what are they
eating.
The more there's competition,the better it is.

(59:45):
On our te'udah in the land ofIsrael, it says explicitly not
just it's under the supervisionof Tzohar in a restaurant.
By example.
It will tell you exactly thestandards we're using in terms
of fruits and vegetables, wherethey come from leafy vegetables,
which is an issue in Israelbecause of bugs, bishol akum,
which means food cooked by anon-Jew.

(01:00:06):
That's a halacha.
Which shita do we use?
There's two shitas, basically.
If I can simplify it, one isthat you just have to make sure
that the fire is lit initiallyby a Jew and that takes care of
all the cooking of the day.
That's the Ramaz Shita, theShulchan Aruch, the Rav Yosef,
cairo is more Mahmir Sfardi.

S. Simon Jacob (01:00:25):
This is the downside of the Sfardi side.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (01:00:29):
Yes, the Sfardi says that they have
to put it on the fire and bemuch more involved Now.
At the end of the day, when youcome into a restaurant, if
you're concerned about kashrusand turn to the certification by
Tzohar, it says exactly whatyou're eating you can make an
informed decision.
Do you want to eat there or not?

S. Simon Jacob (01:00:47):
That's the way it should be.
I can ask can the cook pleaseput my breast of chicken onto
the?
Can the mashkiach put my breastof chicken onto the fire rather
than just have it be lit?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (01:01:01):
And I'll just tell you something
personal that I think is veryimportant.
This is just my point of viewas a rabbi.
I'm not representing Tzohar onthis.
The more people are involved inwhat they eat, the more learned
they are, the better it is forthe Jewish people.
If not, we become like trainedmonkeys.
I'll give you one example thatbothers me to this day.
It's a small example.
You know, during COVID we had tomake a lot of changes.

(01:01:23):
Amongst them is we couldn'tdaven in shuls initially, and
then they allowed minyanim, butoutside, not inside.
So, as you can well imaginewhere I live, where there's a
lot of religious people, we madea lot of minyanim in parking
lots.
So there is a question Fridaynights, if you daven in what we
call a non-permanent minyan, doyou say the bracha me'en sheva

(01:01:44):
after the emayrif Not going intothe whole question do you say
it or not?
So there's different she'itot.
So I was sort of the rabbi atthis minyan and I said not to
say it and I said the reason isbecause once COVID is over we're
all going back to our shul.
So by definition this is not apermanent minyan.
There's different sheitot on itand it's fine.
So one Friday night when westarted out, I wanted to explain

(01:02:06):
to the people we're going toskip a part of the sitter.
I don't want you to think weripped it out.
So I started to explain it andsomeone there said in Hebrew
it's good enough, the rabbiPoskin, we don't need to know
the reason.
I think that's a problem.
I think that brings down thelevel of the Jewish people.
We all become trained monkeysas opposed to informed about

(01:02:26):
what we're doing.
When you learn it, it's moresubstantial.
So if you come into arestaurant and you see this
whole list and you as a Sephardisay whoo, they follow the
Ashkenazim.
And you go up to the chef andyou say can you put my chicken
breast on the fire for me?
And he says no problem.

S. Simon Jacob (01:02:42):
No to the mashkiach.
You say to the mashkiach whatare you basically doing?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (01:02:46):
You made your meal into a religious
experience.

S. Simon Jacob (01:02:48):
You're much more involved in your religion 100%,

(01:03:13):
and that's what we try to doand I think's your plan.
I mean, is there a plan to tryto extend the certification of
Tzohar outside of Israel intointernational markets?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (01:03:24):
At this point.
Tzohar only works within Israel.
We don't have too much outsideof Israel.
There are various ideas for thefuture.
I will say that, according tothe laws right now in the state
of Israel, there's a lot oflimitations on what you can
bring in and what you can'tbring in.
Just to give one illustration,not from the wine market.

(01:03:46):
Meat in this country can onlybe brought in if it's shechted
by the shochtim of the chiefrabbinate, which means that
excuse me for the analogy.

S. Simon Jacob (01:03:57):
You are tackling a subject that is like, wow, I
mean you're going straight forthe jugular, meaning it's like
you are attacking a subject thatis very, very sensitive.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (01:04:12):
I'm not, by the way, giving my
opinion.
I'm just describing it.
The fact is that the SatmarChassid in Monroe or in Kiryas
Yoel, who was eating the ChassidSheshchita at a price of
whatever, cannot be brought intoIsrael, even though it's maybe
cheaper because of that law.

(01:04:32):
Because of that law Now youhave to understand that brings
up the prices of meat, becausemost of the meat is shechted
outside of Israel, which meansyou're paying every time you go
to the supermarket for theshechtim to fly to be put up in
a hotel, and obviously shechitais complex.
We're talking about a shechet,a bodek and the tim.

(01:04:52):
We're talking about pricesgoing very, very high, unlike,
say, if you were able to importmeat in which it was at the
highest level of kashrus, albeit.
All of that doesn't happenbecause it's much more local in
America.
So there's various limitationswhat can or can't be brought in.
On the other hand, there arecertain things that the Chief

(01:05:17):
Rabbinate allows that say, inAmerica most people don't eat.
I'll give an example.
People have asked me many atimes about a certain kashrus
that in America most people stayaway from and in Israel it says
Be sure, rabbinu tarashik liisrael.
So there's a lot of limitationsas to what you can bring in.
There's a lot of limitations asto what you can bring in At

(01:05:38):
this point.
Tzohar has decided we are hereto service the people of Israel.
That's what we do in all of ouractivities, including Kashrus.
There's basically that's whatwe're doing.
We have ideas for the future,but a lot of laws have to change
for that to become a reality.

S. Simon Jacob (01:05:51):
So ideally if you had your druthers.
Where do you want to be in thenext five to ten years?

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (01:05:58):
I'd like to see a situation in
Israel in which privateorganizations of sorts shapes,
sizes and standards higher,lower, whatever it might be all
within halacha obviously are theones that give supervision and
the chief rabbinate be theregulators.
They'll be the ones that willsay there's certain regulations

(01:06:18):
you have to follow in order foryou to even give that service.
This way there would becompetition and our kashrus
level would go up.
To date, israel is such thatthe only ones that can use the
word kasher kosher is the chiefrabbinate.
So if you're a Haredi, aprivate kashrus that does not

(01:06:39):
rely on the chief rabbinate, youcan use every word in the book,
but you cannot say the wordkosher and sort of it's private,
it's not national.
Is that why they use the term?
badatz for example, if you lookat the Kashrus of Badatz, it
will say you will not see theword kosher on their stamp.
Everyone knows Badatz meanskosher.

(01:07:00):
That's fine, but at the end ofthe day, I would love to see a
situation where privateorganizations in proper
competition are the ones thatare giving the service of
Kashrus and there's regulatorsabove them, called the chief
rabbinate, that decides.
Here's the regulations you haveto follow to be one of them.
That would be ideal from myperspective.
We're not there yet.

(01:07:22):
There was such a law.
It was submitted to the Knesseta few years ago.
Then, as Israel has it, thegovernment fell and ultimately
that law became sort of on thebooks but not on the books.
I would love for that to happen.
I would like to go into anestablishment, see a Te'uda on
it.
It says exactly who's givingthe kashrut, what the standards

(01:07:44):
are, and I think it's only goingto bring up the level of
kashrut in this country.
If it will happen or not, it'sreally up to a lot of factors
politicians, other pressures andwhatnot.

S. Simon Jacob (01:07:57):
There are many, many hashgachot on wine and
there are many bottles of winethat have many hashgachot on
them right.
I can't take away from themarketing strategy, and which
group of people will only followtheir raves decisions and what
have you?
I, like you know, I'm happy asfar as that's concerned.

(01:08:20):
I just wish there was moreflexibility from, specifically
about this Chumrah, specificallyabout the concept of who's a
Jew with regard to wine, and I'mso, so happy that you guys are
taking it.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (01:08:37):
You're bringing up one of the most
important things that we'vetalked about today, and that is
the fact that, when it comes towine, there's a lot of important
things you have to rememberproducing wine, especially in
Israel, with Trumot and Masrotbeing an issue that all of a
sudden, to take a Chumrah, willsometimes stop the wine industry

(01:08:58):
from being kosher, not tomention putting out their wine
that has many Doraita andDorabanan problems with it, and
therefore I think it's veryimportant, when you make a
policy for wine, to indeed thinkabout this and not just about
that, in other words, to thinkabout the fact I want kosher

(01:09:18):
wine on my table, not non-kosherwine on my table.
I think that the fact thatwines have five costresses on
the back is always funny to me.
Now, I have no problemwhatsoever with what you just
described.
I have a Rebbe and I have acertainita and that's the wine I
buy.
That's for you and for yourhome and, as I said, that's
wonderful.
But it's a big problem when youhave a whole industry of wine

(01:09:43):
that's not kosher, and for thewrong reasons.
If it was for the right reasons, then it's for the right
reasons.
If a non-Jewish company came tous and said we would like to
make wine and we're going tomake the wine and we're going to
touch the wine we would not beable to give kashrus.
We're talking about a Jewishcompany and, ultimately, not
only is it possible, you aregoing to gain so much on a

(01:10:05):
personal level, you're going tostop violation of Shabbos from
the workers, not to mention onthe level of the country, you're
going to have much more kosherwine put in out there.
I never knew, for example, howmuch goes into wine.
I thought the Gemara saysthere's a funny story about a
guy who on Friday got tosomewhere.

(01:10:27):
His flight was delayed.
He had to be there for Shabbos.
He didn't know what to use forwine.
So he called me on the phoneand I said what's the big deal?
The Gemara says go buy somegrapes and squeeze them out.
He called me back a half anhour.
He said he bought more grapesthan the Himalayas has snow, but
you know how long it takes tosqueeze out a cup.

(01:10:47):
It's a proper process.
So you understand thatultimately, what goes into
making a bottle of wine is a lot.
It's not just crushing thegrapes and leaving it.
There's ingredients that go in.
You have to be very careful.
You have to take it out and putit in and whatnot.
It's very complex.
Now, to make sure all thosestages are kosher is also very

(01:11:09):
complex.
But when you finally have abottle of wine, to think, sure,
all those stages are kosher isalso very complex.
But when you finally have abottle of wine, to think about
all the work that went into itand then to say, wait, if a
non-Jew touches it, I know it'snot kosher and let's expand that
to the Jewish people Because ofa chumrah that's not even
paskind in Shulchan Aruch.
And I say to myself, oh my gosh, if we do that, then everything

(01:11:30):
else I just described, fromtithing to the ingredients, to
the barrels, to everything thatgoes into wine, is going to be
lost.
And it's too bad because wineis part and parcel of our
Shabbos and Yontif.
It's used at a bris milah and apidyon aban under the chuppah.

S. Simon Jacob (01:11:46):
It's used at every single important event in
Jewish life, every singleimportant event in Jewish life,
every single important event.
There is almost no event thatgoes beyond.
That goes on.
It's every week, it's everyholiday, every event.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (01:12:01):
We use wine and as you know, wine
could be destructive if youdrink too much.
And wine can be beautiful ifyou drink a little bit.
And you know it can make andbreak A yontiv meal.
The Rambam says in HilchosYontiv Perik Vav, halachot Tet
Vav, that you should drink wineand eat meat on Yontiv to

(01:12:23):
Mekayim, simchat Yontiv.
And then he warns you, don'tthink that whoever drinks more
wine and eats more meat is doinga mitzvah.
Whoever drinks more wine andeats more meat is doing a
mitzvah.
In other words, wine is achallenge in and of itself.
To be careful, on the one hand,but to enjoy it on the other.
Because it's such a challenge,it's something that we have to
provide, and we have to provideit properly to the Jewish people

(01:12:44):
and no, just like it'schallenging to drink wine, it's
challenging to make wine.
And we have to be verysensitive to the winemakers and
to the wineries that go out oftheir way to give us this
beverage which, as you pointedout, is so germane to the Jewish
experience.

S. Simon Jacob (01:13:01):
That they really go out of their way to try to
make this the art.
The experience that they wantout of a bottle of wine is huge.
I mean, I've seen many, many,many winemakers.
I've been very close to a lotof them.
There isn't one who basicallymakes wine for money.

(01:13:24):
Every single one is trying tomake wine to make something very
special, and the ones who aremaking kosher wine are trying to
make it special for Jews andit's really amazing.
So I thank you very much.
I thank you very much for beinghere on the Kosher Terroir.

(01:13:45):
I thank you for taking so muchtime to go through this with me.
It was a sincere pleasure.
Simon Pleasure.

Rabbi Yehoshua Grunstein (01:13:51):
Thank you.
Thank you for inviting me and Ihope that, be'ezrat Hashem, we
should have more kashrus inIsrael and more kosher wine in
Israel and Amir Tz'ashem.
It should always be able to bepart and parcel of our Shabbos
and Yontif tables and ourcelebrations.
I just want to end with onelittle story that I just
remembered and just to let youknow what it means to live in

(01:14:13):
the complex world that we'reliving in.
So I was a rabbi, as I said, inHalifax and in between Mincha,
meiriv, I was zocha to have adaily minyan.
I would give a little something, like many rabbis do, and
obviously I knew my crowds.
I always looked for sensationalquestions.
I didn't just say, you know,when you put your feet together.
So one of the questions that Idealt with was the following

(01:14:33):
question Do you make a brachanon-kosher food?
And the question came from oneof the congregants who said I
was at a meal that was notkosher because I don't keep
kosher.
So just think of the reality.
The person comes to Minyan andhe tells you right out I don't
keep kosher.
And they were making kiddishFriday night because it was

(01:14:53):
kiddish time and they were usingnon-kosher wine.
Should I have stopped them Nowjust to analyze that question
halachically, not to mentionemotionally.
It's just mind-boggling.
I don't want that to happen inthe land of Israel.
I want the land of Israel to bea place where it's very hard to
find non-kosher wine and,ultimately, I think that Tzohar

(01:15:16):
is doing its part to ensure thatthere's more kosher wine in
Israel.
So that question will nevercome up, baruch Hashem.
Thank you, simon, for hostingme.

S. Simon Jacob (01:15:25):
It was a pleasure to speak to you Really
a pleasure, thank you.
Thank you for being on theKosher Terroir.
This is Simon Jacob, again yourhost of today's episode of the
Kosher Terroir.
I have a personal request.

(01:15:54):
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